Wreckster> can I ask you something glk....why are you an athiest? Just wondering hmmm...what is the reason not to believe? I believe in scientific models of origins so you believe that we came about on this earth naturally? So what is your evidence that we came about this earth naturally? Maybe maybe not...what evidence do you have that a God doesn't exist? The physical evidence shows the animals and plants evolved over billions of years. Tell me something. Can science reproduce a living cell in a lab? There are many things it can not do at present but it can do more every year. The solar system formed naturally 4.55 billion years ago. how do you know? Atomic testing shows the date of the solar system. The early earth had no life. Within a billion years it had prokaryote bacteria. you are putting faith in something that hasn't been proved The earth formed out of gas and dust, which is a poor place to live. Evolution is a scientific fact. No. Sure, we can assume this, but how do we know this? Look at the moon to see what the early earth looked like. First off, we must realize there are several different types of evolution, Not all the evolutionary theories have been explained The most common gases were hydrogen and helium. So not all evolution.If you call it that is a fact. Glk, look. I read the big bang book too There are different associated theories about evolutionary change and new ones are being developed with time. No scientific observation has refuted evolution yet. Proof is for math. you see this evolution as the way life came into being because science has no other way to explain it NOT because it has been proven. Proof is for math. That's my question about science. Science deals in validity and evolution is valid science. how can I believe that we came about naturally and by accident, when under the most controlled conditions science can't reproduce a single living cell. You are believing in science through faith, and that contradicts your principal that all things can be proven Think what they once could not do and now can do. You have no proof that the earth came about naturally so that means God or A God is a valid option Science can not show a single atom came about natually. Accident is not a physical process. The Big bang produced matter, energy space and time. How can one say there is no God, when they themselves don't have proof that science is the answer? I believe science gets a lot of attention because its the only way scientists can explain how the earth came into existance without God so people who want to refuse a supernatural beings existance cling to science...hence another faith claim. Okay GLK, how did order come out of disorder? IT is their religion Define order and disorder. glk, how did the big bang happen? order...a pattern....what was before the big bang? The laws of nature control how things act. There was nothing before the big bang? So these special laws of nature give order to things? Sounds like an intelligents behind that to me the laws of nature contradict everything about evolution glk: Even Stephen Hawking believes in a God The big bang really blows me away BEFORE assumes time and time did not yet exist. He believes that God is the reason the universe bothers to exist God is a myth. That idea has no predictive value. they dont change for evolution Neither do your theories glk, What caused the big bang to happen? Evolution is a lie brainwashed on everone in a public school all their life so of course they will believe it Scientific theories work very well and are superior to preacher stories. GLK your theories are about dissecting things down, and I believe through scientific arrogance we assume we can eventually dissect everything I dont see how anyone can say they believe in God but not in creation. Evolution is a scientifc fact. Live with it. Fact has proof No it isn't This is an educated guess. Only preachers and their dupes oppose evolution. It sounds like some people think the big bang was a real fizzle Evolution is a scientific fact. Okay a fact has to have all its parts to be considered a fact, science cannot explain how life can form naturally they can't even create a single cell. SO I just PROVED evolution isn't a fact. thats because no one can think for themselves, so they just believe what the textbooks say The textbooks reflect the findings of thousands of scientists. Scientist who make stuff up. I just PROVED evolution isn't a fact So they can make science their religion. Just so God doesnt get the credit Evolution is widely observed. You proved nothing but your lack of knowledge. God doesn't need credit There is not one bit of fact in it. SO WHAT, THAT DOESNT MAKE IT TRUE Glk.Can scientists create a living cell? YOUR ONLY "PROOF" IS THAT EVERONE BELIEVES IT That is being worked on. Accept that people are brainwashed Ooh a living cell Is useful in showing science is valid. Wreckster> I didn't ask you that GLK I asked has scientists created a living cell? What is science? Define what a living cell consists of. Something is behind it A few years ago youy could claim science could not split atoms or go to the moon. Notice, there's always a few questions you have to avoid. Well what else is there? Something that can excrete, reproduce, feed, and respirate People aren't science. They use God given knowledge to perform such feats We went to the Moon Science is 500 years behind what it might have been.Christians tried to destroy it. Glk can scientists create a living cell? Living organisims are capable of metabolism No living organisms have or will be created by anyone but God Define a living cell completely and I will tell you. I just did You don't see the scientist doing that know do you. Living cell_ capable of metabolism So quit avoiding it. The antiscience laws threatened teachers with prison if they taught modern science, in several states. What science has done shows its validity. glk: But, how does that stop scientific research? You can always point to someting it has not done yet. You should start a church, you can be the Scientist religion If there are no trained scientists, research stops. Look A living cell can respirate, excrete, feed, and reproduce. Science cannot recreate it. That is prove evolution has major holes in it and is not a fact What good does it do to make me believe in evolution? Why do you assume God created this universe? Evolution exists. Some evolution exists. Why would you waste your time on it unless you had the slightest bit of doubt? All science ideas have holes in it. The proton is not completely understood yet. But there are different kinds. Evolution Macro evolution Deevolution The fossil record shows an evolutionary sequence. Creationism But how does teaching science to a bunch of young school kids stop science? Macro evolution Glk....so what you are telling me is that science will eventually figure it out right? I mean micro evolution. Evolution started once a genetic system occurred. glk: If science has all the answers can anything stop it? glk: or are you looking for an excuse to explain why science does not have the answers? Science never claims to have all the answers Okay but what you are telling me is that science can eventually figure out how a proton for instance is created? Do you believe there is a God? If the teachers face prison for teaching science, the children will not be able to do science in their later years. Science figures out more every year. Who believe in evolution? Evolution is valid science. Sure it does, but does that mean its limitless. Through God given knowledge Why should we put science teachers in jail? So what! I believe in evolution and in God Who does that? It would take a miracle of God to prevent evolution from happening. How can you believe in both? It would take a miracle from God to fully prove it exists If you give TV preachers their way, everyone would be in prision. The fossils show major changes in life forms over the 3.85 billion years of life on earth. I belive god created the cell that has evolved into us today The Christians of several states tried that. No, they show a bunch of bones with similar structure, thats all. Let me tell you this glk If the world is so old then why did it take so long for man to appear? I believe that God used evolution as a mechanism to create the world and life And are still trying it. Bones with similar structure shows evolution occurred, I'm guessing you just are a Christian who wanted to believe what everone else does < Take a poodle.It has a different bone structure than a great dane right? mikejfa> Can science explain the extinction of the dinosaurs? But they are still the same animal No modern species are found in formations earlier than the Tertiary. God created the world in 7 days how can you belive in God but not that? Seven literal days as in 24 hrs days The dinos died all during the Mesozoic. The last ones died probably as a result of the Chicxulub meteor strike. Why do you think a week is seven days So you have to believe that to be a Christian GLK.The only thing you have done this whole debate is avoid answering my questions and hopping around the subject. I have not once heard you give a solid answer to anything I think everyone can agree with me there. The Bible has animals and plants without ancestors on a young earth. It says there was light and there was darkness , the first day A meteor killed all the dinosaurs? I give scientific answers. If you do not like them, go to a science book or encyclopedia. No the bible doesn't state this.You are taking the bible out of context but a week in the time of the bible wasn't 7 days I'm not saying if you believe in Jesus but not creation you will go to hell. I just don't see why you wouldnt believe that. You aren't giving scientific answer. You aren't giving any answers. The Bible has trees before sun moon and stars. There was no world flood. Humans evolved so Adam is mythical. Here we go with the flood thing again The Bible has the sun going around the motionless earth. Same old debate, as always. glk: You can believe in evolution and still accept Jesus as your savior Where do people get that from? Science has good predictive value. Genesis is mythology. You can, but why would you? Oh,so GLK you are telling me that you know all about the bible and that you are taking it literally? did you know that the word that we see as DAY in the bible really means an UNDIFINED AMOUNT OF TIME? Ah....predictive...not....proven.. The only reason you would want to is so you can believe the same thing everone else does The Jesus stories include Adam and the Noah flood. They are thus mythology. It is really a lack of faith. Wreckster, you either take it literally or you don't take it at all. Wreckster> how do you know? No, I disagree. Tell me what Genesis has first, trees or heavenly bodies. All or none Were the first land animals birds? The Bible is up for interpretation. glk: The stories of Jesus are just using things that are familiar to people during that time. < You can't debate 7 days. ufosanta> That's the point. He was telling mythological stories then. glk: You are missing the Big picture. You just want to fit in with everyone else. Days comes from a Hebrew word meaning an undefined amount of time. So you believe in evolution? Animals and plants appeared and became extinct for ever 600 million years. GLK okay...let me ask you something, is evolution all evolution proven? Science has been very successful in explaining earth history. Hebrew tribal stories are worthless in this area. Evolution is observed so is a scientific fact. do you believe in heaven and hell? What's a fact? I do not know anything about heaven, hell, purgatory or limbo. Evolution is widely observed. If everone believe in creation and it was taught in schools you all would believe it. It is defined as descent with modification or also a change in the allele frequency in a populaton as time passes. In school, I was taught evolution as fact Wreckster, I agree with you in all points exept that God made a cell and it evolved We see what you do with us. Glk.So you are saying this. Evolution is a fact because science observes it., NOT because its been proven, because if science cannot prove how a living cell came into being how can it say evolution is true? No scientific observation fits creation. I was lucky and went to a Christian school. Proof isn't acceptance. Proof is for math. It is a scientific fact as the evidence ALL supports it. when Darwin first made his observations people ridiculed him. Evolution starts once the first genetic system formed on the early earth. Now they riducule us. Glk.True or false, science can explain everything there is about evolution. < glk: There are scientific observations that support creation. The fact that life on earth is so diverse and works together with such unimaginable complexity suggests to anyone that it just isnt chance. Fredd, it's not about majority its about money and power. Evolution was around since Aristotle. Darwin demonstrated a scientific mechanism for producing speciation, natural selection. True Sure natural selection is true. Survival of the fittest. No scientific observation supports a young universe,animals without ancestors or a world flood. There are many things still unknown by science but the fact of the matter is you believe in science through faith, not proof. The probelm is, I dont know all the terms of evolution. I wasn't brainwashed. To assume God caused them is unwarranted because, historically, mysterious things have eventually been explained by physical means. None of the science professional journals supports Genesis as history. All of life demonstrates design. A "world flood " when the known world was the middle east is entirely possible, especially after the melting of the ice age. Science has excellent predictive value, which validates its assumptions and methods. Design is an incredible thing. But, it was world wide. Take the design of the cell. Especially, if you believe in the canopy of water above the earth Ice melting would make 270 feet additional water. The polar caps have 420,000 yearly layers intact. Most ancient people had to live near water to survive, therefore, if glaciers are melting, rivers lakes seas and oceans are all going to rise That would make a lot of water. A canopy would fall immediately. Light could not get through it. It was water vapor. Don't debate glk on this flood issue. It's his best argueing point. The atmosphere can hold one inch of water vapor. It protected the people from harmful rays of they sun thus they lived longer It wasn't in the atmosphere. Glk...yes or no...many points in evolution and science must be taken through faith Light could not get through a canopy. Over time, the rise in water level, no matter how small, could easily be distorted into a raging flood It was in the stratosphere. The design of the cell is the most perfect thing, but even more perfect is the way that all of the cells operate together. The human cells maintain order when all of the universe is going towards disorder. That is incredible and proves creation! The only faith of science is that the laws of the universe do not change. This is true, will. I have no way to prove the faith I choose to follow. It is a feeling and a personal experience with God that I have had. I can offer no proof nor expect any others to follow it. but I do respect the differing opinions and the truths that other faiths and lack of faith that I have found. < No accident can do that. No matter where you place a canopy, it would fall. Ufo, so you are an athiest? What's the last part of that mean? It is just one theory. Glk. oh so you are telling me you don't have faith that someday we will have the ability to create a human cell, that it can happen although it hasn't been proven yet? No, I would call myself a follower of Christ. Define a perfect cell so I see if one ever existed anywhere. Water also came from the inside of the earth. But, I don't hold others to that belief. The weakest part of evolution is the fossil record. if you look at the so called "remains of our ancestors" you could easily construct almost anything from the partial bones For can I prove it. Do you not know what one is or are you just avoiding the question? Who said something about a perfect cell. I just said cell? glk: A living cell is capable of metabolism! They can produce structures having some of the characteristics of a living cell. See what a few more decades will bring. there are no "java men" or fossils of inbetween life forms > Homo sapiens sapiens: 120,000 Years ago > Cro-Magnon 28,000 years ago > Homo sapiens neanderthalensis: 230,000 Years ago > Homo sapiens (archaic): 250,000 to 500,000 Years ago > Homo antecessor 800,000 Years ago. > Homo erectus: 1.5 million Years ago > Homo habilis: 2.4 million Years ago > Australopithecus africanus 2.5 to 3 million years ago > Australopithecus afarensis 3.0 to 3.6 million years ago > Australopithecus anamensis 3.9 to 4.2 million years ago > A. ramidus 3.9 to 4.4 Million years ago ago > Morotopithecus bishopi 20 million years ago. > ------------------------- > See Time Magazine Dec 2, 1996 or the June 1997 Scientific American but you have no PROOF that they can create a cell am I correct? I guess I have many doubs about things and find it hard to understand how people can be so sure and have every aspect of an eternal God nailed down so tight Proof is for math. creation - 7 days. glk: You should read some scientific journals on the subject...most experts in the area believe that life will never be created in the lab! The only flood I take is the world wide flood. Proof is for math. Glk You just told us about how long it took for the human to evolve. Tell me,did you get this from books, or did you go out on the research field yourself and figure it out? I do not do human paleontology. I do invertibrate paleontology. I have the books of the people who did the human paleontology. ahh...So you only take someone elses word for it. It's sad that people are wasting their knowledge on memorizing that. You don't know you just read about it. Scientists have words worth believing. They do fredd, all those names, and no proof, how can you believe it all? I have seen enough fossils to know the pattern evolution takes. You mean to tell me that scientists are soooo truthful with their findings and never bend the rules around to fit what they want. I doubt you have any paleontology field experience. Silly me! proof is for math! I should have remembered, after all thats your only argument. Proof is for math.Last time I looked science couldn't exist. glk: How do you account for energy? Do you believe that energy existed before time? Science has had fraud and error but it has methods for discovering and correcting these matters. Theology lacks such a process. Physics, for example. No, it doesn't. Energy matter space and time originated in the Big Bang. When did the Big Bang happen? They used the dating methods on the moon and it was about 5 thousand years old. That is not what NASA found on the moon. I am a physicist with 50 years of scientific training and experience. You are trying to chisel theology to fit your beliefs. Because there was no flood on the moon. OK. But energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The BB occurred about 14 billion years ago. The laws of the BB are not the same as operate now. and the only thing I have seen so far is you dodge every single question with an unrelevant answer. Well, I don't think he'll change after 50 years. The moon is only 5000 years old. I'm only 16 years old. You have contradicted yourself so many times so far. Wow, glk cant debate a 16 yr old Christian You have avoided questions. I gave the best scientific answers available. Go elsewhere if you want more details, like a library of science books. You have given obscure and unpractical answers Your best answers are pretty pathetic. You have not refuted a single fact of mine with your Sunday School education. Pick and choose verses. < Yes I have. Go to any science reference book to see if I have misled you. I have refuted everything you have thrown at me. No, I haven't for instance. You can't believe everything you read, unless of course it is inspired The science reference books reflect what I have told you, in much greater details. you say there is no God. I have proven with your OWN methods that God is an option Doesn't make them true. All gods and godesses are maybe real. You said that evolution is true. I have proven that science doesn't have the knowledge to know that in full detail. If you can refute all of modern science, then give it a try. Evolution is seen in the physical world and observed in the fossil record. The fossils show an evolutionary sequence. You said that evolution occurs after a genetic foundation is laid. Well something like that) and you cannot explain how that foundation was laid God just made all the species when he created the world glk: You have to admit that there are many missing pieces. The fossil record has many many holes in it No on yet knows the nature of first genetic system. It is very complex chemistry. You don't have to believe it just because everyone else does. So that is proof God is an option, correct? The fossil record show millions of species evolving and becoming extinct. I don't see what extinction has to do with it. It doesn't mean that one being became another did it? I have studied fossils in the field for 50 years. What is your experience in this area? How can they evolve once they're dead? My experience is common sense. Animals and plants ALWAYS come from their ancestors, a law of nature. Their ancestors were the same as them Do you know the names of the geological periods in the proper order? I doubt you have this knowledge. So what! The first bacteria are the ancestors of all since then. You think its true just because you memorized them? What does that matter? Give the period list or admit ignorance. glk That was kind of pathetic I must admit. Now stop confusing issues with the facts. I didn't even know 70 year olds knew how to use a computer. Glk. The fact is, science is believed in through faith or you wouldn't be trying to prove everything. God is believed in through faith.The only problem here is you want everybody to believe science can overcome anything. That hasn't been proven so that leaves God as an option. If you do not know the basics of the matter, your opinions have slight value. If you believe the Genesis account, then why don't you believe the Old Testament stories on how the young are to treat those that are their elders GLK.You haven't giving me one single bit of evidence that the laws of nature and that alone were responsible for the creation of the universe. You can oppose science all you want but nothing you say refutes its successes. Pick and choose religion and spiritual pride. It's not pride. We just want to see you in heaven. If you want more info on the Big Bang, read the works of Hawking or Timothy Ferris. Glk To say that nothing we say refutes its success is to openly admit that science has all the answers already. That is wrong. But, that is the working of God, not us all, the working of God. I can not give you a university degree in single sentences here. I have a couple Hawkings books right here Sound bite theology. Science has much to find in the future but its past models work very well. Only preachers and their dupes oppose science. What? Some people wrote books on evolution, in that case it has to be true! Now I understand. Newton's models worked before Einstein too, but his theory didn't explain as much No, police or other public servants should not share personal religous ideas unless asked. The preachers use 2000 year old stories to try to explain things. Evolution is the foundation of all modern biology, paleontology and geology. you use 5 billion year old stories to explain things, so whats your point? The science models allow good predictions to be made. That is the difference. glk: But the preacher's philosophies seem to work in keeping people spiritually satisfied. That is not equivalent to validity. No one here has refuted the ancient earth+universe and the sequence of life forms over the millions of years. No one has demonstrated animals and plants without ancestors, a young universe or a world flood. The Bible predicts a time when the world will learn many things but not find the truth Glk The fact is, you say there is no God.You say God in turn isn't an option, but Science hasn't proven everything and the fact is unless science can give a logical thorough and fully proven method with all the evidence to support and prove it of how the univers, life, and evolution started without assuming anything. glk: You do not believe in a world flood? The Bible discusses a fire breathing Leviathan, a talking snake and magic trees. There was no world flood. It is myth. Where is the magic tree one, Glk? GLK, we invite you to believe in God and the forgiveness of sins, if you don't want to believe this I will spend my time on someone else's problems. Science has produced much good data and will produce more in the future. You have produced no evidence for your deity stories. Science is ultimatly limited because it will not see beyond what is natural. That is all science can do. It works very well. Yes I have, if you cannot prove your side, then it give validity to my side. That is my proof That is poor logic. No it isn't. I have given evidence for modern science. So is "proofs are for math". There is more available on the internet and in any library. No, your evidence is text books. That is not evidence. I thought proofs where for lawyers. If two theories are tested, and one is disproven, it leaves the other one to be a fact That is people you believe the same things you do but it doesn't make it valid. http://earth.ics.uci.edu:8080/ has much on these areas. It is evidence. And which one was disroven and which one changes to make it look true. Look at the progress science has made. Judge that. Look what we know since the beginning of time. Judge that. I am not claiming that God is the only thing out there, its just what I believe.Sure science has its support, but it cannot disprove God. So what! Just because science makes progress does that mean science is all powerful and has all the answers? Science ignores all deity stories and prospers with that approach. It ignores all diety stories, saying they aren't true when they don't know that All of science is tentative and subject to correction and change, as necessary. Science should be open to all areas, dieties included. You are trying to chisel a diety down to fit the scientific theory.That can't happen. glk: I have listened to you for some time now and I would like you to know that I am a huge fan of science (I'm a biology professor at a university) and I know from experiance that life has a unique design that could have been the result of a Creator. As a matter of fact I am convinced that life is a result of a Creator. Haven't you ever thought that there is something out there that is uncomprehensable to even scientists? Science is so bent on proving things through nature, that it never thinks that maybe the holes that science has in its theories and observations are proof of a supernatural thats where I believe science lacks. It only wants to see what it can see count and touch, nothing beyond that. Science wins another round. Science deals with the evidence. That is all. It sometimes takes a long time for new basic ideas to be discovered. If you can demonstrate this material to the scientists, then do so. Science didn't win anything. In your heart. Science supprted its modern models with evidence. I just demonstrated that science is blind, and ultimatly limited. The holes in your scientific models are the evidence of a Creator. glk: You are basically prostituting science by trying to disprove God with scientific findings. That is your claim. Holes in science tend to get filled in with facts. Science ignores deity stories. That's its problem. Sure they TEND to get filled BUT that doesn't mean they WILL get filled. They leave deity stories to the preachers to sell.The preachers talk about talking snakes, magic trees, world flood and animals without ancestors. so what! You talk about things you haven't proven either. Science finds cures for diseases, sends rockets to the moon and solves many other problems. Proof is for math. Your point is? Math and science go hand in hand. Science has demonstrated it has many valid models of reality and it gets better every year. So, that doesn't disprove God in fact Science ignores all deity stories and leaves those to the preachers, priests, mullahs and holy men to discuss. Wreckster> Why does science ignore it? Because they can't see it or prove it scientifically? glk: Your animosity towards Christianity is sickening. I have seen the hatred of Christians toward science. That sickens me. I see science as a limited machine. Man has to PROVE everying by science. They have to see it touch it count it and if that evidence isn't there, they disreguard it, but I don't see why you should disreguard anything. Even if it isn't so called natural doesn't mean it doesn't exist All gods and godesses could exist. I don't hate science. I just don't feel like its the answer to all our questions. Sure, science is a great field. Science can not answer many types of questions. That is what preachers, priests, mullahs, witch doctors and Holy Men are for. But what I think we lost sight of is the fact Science doesn't disprove God and vice versa but there is clearly evidence that both models are a valid option to believe in Science should be used to explain the world around us, but not used to argue the existance of God. Why do you hold so much animosity toward the priests holymen etc? Because they try to explain what you cannot? Because I get the feeling that science tries to say, whatever isn't in the realm of science cannot exist and I tend to believe differently. I am saying that not only does science not hold all the answers I am saying that it CANNOT hold all the answers They produce many explanations for these things. Pick one which satisfies your needs and follow that. Sure they do, and thats where personal spirituality comes into play, but you have also produced and equally faith involving explanation for the gaps and holes in scientific models. Your explanation is "the gaps will eventually be filled" Science is a valuable tool that should be used to help explain our world so that we can find solutions to our problems. That should be the sole function of science. People get Nobel Prizes for filling gaps in present science. So to put it simply for now, the holes in your scientific models give evidence to a creator. Sure, they tend to be filled, but can you say without faith as (we have in a Creator) that they will all be filled? I do not have faith that the gaps will ever be filled. Nobel Prizes are a trivial man made object that bare no relevance to this subject Then how can you discredit A god of ANY kind unless you have faith these holes can be filled? The gaps are mysteries which need more investigation. Nothing in the presence of a gap indicates any deities are doing anything.. glk: God is the mystery you seek. Sure it doesn't indicate it if you don't want it too, but it doesn't prove it either. The past record of science indicates that progress will continue filling in gaps and holes. If you propose a deity does anything, it is up to you to demonstrate that to be true. And the holes in your models indicate that God is a valid belief system That's what the enlightenment thinkers said - and look where science has brought us - to a more depraved society than ever. If science makes you unhappy, get rid of all which you have which science helped produce. Dump your computer first. wreckster: I don't believe that it can glk: Please avoid the extreme straw man arguments Order comes from disorder all the time. Look at a seed growing or a crystal forming. What for science doesn't make me unhappy. I love science.Its when science tried to disprove God is when I dislike it. The big bang was an explosion - do explosions create order, or chaos? No law of nature prevents order from appearing out of disorder. glk: Is science the ultimate universal omniscience? glk: But it usually doesn't happen Yeah sure. It doesn't prevent it, but you want us to believe that its the cause of order. The Big Bang produced atomic particles and the laws controlling them. The laws made the particles produce more complex structures like atoms, molecules, stars, planets and galaxies. Good point Wreckster. Where did the particles come from? 1st law of thermo says that isn't possible Quote the 1st law exactly. Law of conservation - matter can neither be created nor destroyed Quote the 1st law exactly and the evidence it operated during the Big bang. List the laws which existed during the Big Bang. Uhhh...glk...This isn't jeopordy... You list them. It's your theory. Whats that have to do with anything? If you can not back your claims, too bad. What's that have to do with backing up a claim? It's like saying you have no reason to believe in a car since you don't know how to build one Wreckster: You have him rattled No kidding List the laws in operation during the Big Bang. Glk is the guy who says, "I deprogram christians" You mean you haven't allowed yourself to lose a debate That was when a Lutheran refuted all my facts and logic by hitting me in the nose. Tell me, how did time come into existance without a creator.Can you tell me that? I am equipped with facts and logic and Christians are equipped with Sunday School lessons and a 2000 year old book. glk: You are rambling again. Space, time, matter, and energy were produced by the Big Bang. Can you tell me why all of a sudden after an infinately long amount of time the universe decides to accidently create a big bang for no reason? It is unknown. It may have involved a quantum fluctuation in a singularity. Argument from authority is no good - remember? IT IS UNKOWN you got that boys Hawking has authority in cosmology. UNKNOWN...meaning you can't explain it. Meaning GOD may exist. Future science may fill this hole or it may be forever a mystery. The latter I expect. All gods and godesses may exist. Another straw man argument Some things are unmeasurable by physical processes. Like God? Ahhh...so instead of thinking of God as a logical choice you would rather run with your tail between your legs calling it a mystery or say science MAY fill it then actually acknowledge that A GOD did it Bye the way....What is God? Unicorns, Leviathans, talking snakes and magical trees are outside of scientific measurement. Do you know? Are you trying to humanize God? Science admits mysteries and no deity explanation has any predictive value so is not the default explanation. What is your training and experience in any field of science? So what? Science admits it. What does that make science? God? Just because it doesn't have a predictive value does that mean it can't exist? Give me a break! I will answer yours if you answer mine.What is your training and experience in and field of theology? glk: What about the perfection of the earth model? Perfect thickness of crust, perfect magnetic field, perfect tilt of axis, perfect distance from sun, perfect brightness of sun, perfect strong nuclear and weak nuclear forces? And the fact that no other planet we know of has these things the earth posesses If any of these were altered, life would not exist - yet you believe they all coexist by accident Perfect thickness of ozone, perfect amount of hydrogen in the universe, perfect amount of gravity, etc., etc., etc. What if, just suspend your imagination for a moment, the laws of nature were GOD? you know, I still haven't heard an explanation on how these magical laws of nature and physics work yet. I have had hundreds of assorted religious people explain theology to me, with much variation. If the earth were not what it is, we would not be here to wonder at how right it is. It is unknown how many earth type planets there are in the universe. And I have had hundred of assorted scientific theories explained to me with much variation too. earth type doesn't mean earth. Science has methods for selecting the most probable explanations among those proposed. =kjv job 38:4 The earth type planets may exist by the trillions. It is a big universe. you tell me the universe was created by the natural laws of science, yet you cannot prove how even these natural laws came into existance. If you say they are just there, then the same can be said for any deity The area of any part of the sky you pick has tens of thousands of galaxies in the area covered by your palm, at arms length. Whats the point? So what there are thousands of planets and galaxies. I don't think thats really relevant to disproving God The origin of the universe is a partial mystery. The origin of the laws is a total mystery. Science has not stopped looking for explanations yet. "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set? or who laid its cornerstone? So if the origin of the laws as you say is a total mystery, doesn't that give evidence that a creator does indeed exist? Not proved, but evidence Nothing in science disproves any gods or proves any gods. It ignores all gods and lets them all do whatever they want to do, in peace. glk: You don't even realize your own impotence, do you? I mean, as a human. Yeah. But you are an athies, and all I am saying is that you cannot without arrogance state that God does NOT exist. There are many things I cannot do. That is right. because there is evidence that He does I worked 20 years to solve a problem in orbit theory. I finally did it. They are many more left to solve. Very good points you're making Wreckster. I can not state with knowledge that any god or godess does not exist. science guy context always wins over verse theology Many temples were built to Venus and Minerva by the Greeks who needed a female godess to worship. Well, to be an agnostic I can understand, but an athiest is a big claim to not believe in God is a statment that he doesn't exist but to be agnostic is to state you don't know and all I have done is giving real evidence that God is an option and a valid one. An atheist is without any deities. I have no gods or godesses so I am an atheist. That is one definition. But I have given several valid points to the possible existance of a creator glk: So you're saying you simply refuse to believe in a creator? All gods, godesses and creators may exist. They are beyond what science can measure. Therefore glk, atheism is a choice you're making, right? I am presently without any deities. I will see if any evidence is ever presented and maybe change my mind if the evidence is adequate. Wreckster has just given you evidence which you choose to ignore. That's all I have been trying to say, but I have also been trying to say you cannot discount God. You may not choose to believe in him, but you cannot discount him. or whatever god it is The evidence is adequate. It is the logical choice in the total absence of evidence to support that model of reality. The evidence is that science has many many holes. I just proved there was evidence and now you are telling me I haven't given you any? The holes in science are not admissions that any deity acts there. That is called God of the Gaps. Sure they are not admissions but they are evidence, whether proven factual or not glk - You borrow phrases from other atheists. The total absence of the origins of the laws of nature is STRONG evidence of a creator.I never said fact, but it is GOOD evidence One time, the planet Mercury deviated from the path predicted on basis of Newton's theory of gravity. They did not know why. They did not propose a deity nudged it out of its Newton orbit. Eventually a new model of gravity was developed by Einstein. Not to mention the DESIGN that permeates everything in the universe. This new model exactly predicted the observed orbit of Mercury. What's your point? I don't find this relevant at all. Define what a designed object looks like compared to something which formed natually. Something that has order. I showed how a hole in science was filled by more and better science, not more and better deities. Define design compared to the product of natural processes. Scientist still do not understand the universe. Two theories attempt to explain the universe: the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics. glk: Either all matter was created by God, or it was created by the Big Bang as you assert Before you ask me all these questions, answer me this question, define how the natural laws of nature and physics came into being and I will answer your questions for they are related Both have good explanations in its own area. How can I tell if a proton was created by God or the results of the Big Bang? Because something had to cause the big Bang. The scientists find both to be valid and are working to combine them. Well, it is a matter of either having faith in man-made science or in God. It could have been a result of both forces. But both are faith glk GLK..You just said science disreguards God? Now you say science is working to combine them? The Big Bang was uncaused as cause involves a time sequence and no time existed until the BB occurred. If no time existed before the Big Bang..then how did the Big Bang happen to begin with? There had to be some intervention. Scientists combined the other three forces of nature and are working to combine them with gravity laws. Time is very complicated Glk talks of science as if it is God. He was a great man because he made great music that had compassion and feeling Exactly! That is something you need to read Hawking for or get a PhD in cosmology and then you can know more about it. But you don't have a PhD glk Do you? It is not a god but is an efficient intellectual tool. how do we know I have only a BA and do not specialize in cosmology. There is much written by Hawking, Guth and others who know far more than I do. They THINK they know. They are working on it and that is how progress is made in science. All scientific models are tested by the predictions they make. Models, predictions = speculation. That is how science works. Valid scientific models have good predictions. glk: I don't think you deprogrammed any christians this evening. A good theory is one that explains a lot about the universe and it lasts untill it is proven wrong and then it is usually revised Read Kuhn THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS I gotta go but answer yourself this. Science and Physics are looked upon as Laws, yet seemingly they create and bring order to the universe. Now we think of these laws as only laws but for a moment think about this. Do we try to humanize God or are these Natural laws of nature really God showing his creative capablility They are just working on the nature of singularities. Wreckster: You made some good points. Thanks for coming. A deity is not the default explanation for a scientific mystery. For example: The appeal that there must be a divine creator, or we're just the results of a spontaneously created universe based on "randomness" "chaos" and "chance" In short your natural laws of physics could be God at work.. "If there is no creator, you're insignificant." "Oh well." Might as well make the best of it. Glk.Just do yourself a favor. I am not asking you to believe in God but just quit trying to humanize this entity we call God. You can propose everything which happens in nature is done by one or more deities. That model is rejected by science as it has no predictive value and can not be tested for valdity. < glk: Your mind is on science autopilot. All models of God are only what humans can propose. The science approach has worked very well and has allowed me to solve many hard problems. END***************************************************************************