8446 ===* Subject: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? I had this guy on another forum, saying that the only reason most students use Ti's is due to contracts that Texas Instruments had with the schools. Such as the school would give away some free calculators and supplies and by this the school would have to agree to recommend only Ti calculators. is this true, and if so is there any documentation backing it. Yes, yes.. The Conspiracy Of Big Brother... TI created the SYSTEM for teaching based on their calculators. This crime is documented on their web page. Have a look. No free calculators. Instead teacher's manual for each calculator. If you want to reverse the trend, convince high school kid (and his teacher) that calculating such as 1+2*(3+4*5+6))*7+8*(9+10*11+12) is easier, faster or whatever using RPN than algebraic notation. Let's see....on a TI you'd press 1, +, 2, *, (, 3, +, 4, *, 5, +, 6, ), *, 7, +, 8, *, (, 9, +, 1, 0, *, 1, 1, +, 1, 2, ) then press EXE. (You had an extra right parenthesis) On an HP you could press (e stands for ENTER) 1, e, 2, e, 3, e, 4, e, 5, *, +, 6, +, *, 7, *, +, 8, e, 9, e, 1, 0, e, 1, 1, e, *, +, 1, 2, +, + If I got the RPN wrong it's because it's so easy to do. This is discussion more or less like discussion with blind about colors. I DON'T question the value of RPN. I DON'T have problems with RPN. This what I say is that RPN is beyond mental capabilities of average high school student and majority of high school teachers. They have enough problems with algebraic notation If it beyond their capabilities or just beyond their interests in an educational system that's highly focused these days on little more than passing standardized tests while the kids are trying very hard to perfect their Xbox skills? I realize that from a teacher's perspective it doesn't really matter... they teach what they're required to teach, and there's apparently less and less time these days for diversions such as, Hey, what's all this I hear about RPN? When I was in high school, (late '80s), some of the math teachers still had these mathematical journals for students around, mainly from the '60s and '70s (perhaps started due to the Space Race?). They explored a lot of half-dozen ways to prove Pythagoras's theorem, properties of polynomials (with an eye towards finding roots or graphing them), discussions on solving overdetermined systems (i.e., when you want to minimize the sum of the square of the errors vs. just the sum of the absolute values of the errors), how slide rules, abacuses, nomographs and so on worked, etc. Some of it was pretty advanced stuff... Do those still exist? I agree with you totally! That was my point. The TI doesn't need reordering. Just press what you see and the right answer comes out. As I said in another post, the HP requires more intellectual investment than the TI and so will never be as popular in the mass-market. The point is, that such equations are enterd with reordering when one become familiar with RPN. The subject equation: (1+2*(3+4*5+6))*7+8*(9+10*11+12) Any experienced HP user you would enter as follows: 4 E 5 * 3 + 6 + 2 * 1 + 7 * 1 0 E 1 1 * 1 2 + 9 + 8 * + On TI it is much more difficult to quickly come up with the effective entering order and you will end up with more keystrokes no matter what. On TI with the subject equation I would probably give up trying to come up with optimized order, since there doesn't seem to be one that is clearly more effective and just enter as written: ( 1 + 2 * ( 3 + 4 * 5 + 6 ) ) * 7 + 8 * ( 9 + 1 0 * 1 1 + 1 2 ) E You are wlecome with proposing more effective entering order that can beat RPN above. My point was that the algebraic system is more easily understood by us normal (meaning non-professional) people. You press what you see. There's no reordering or even thinking necessary! If it takes more keystrokes, who cares? That's why TI will always win in the mass-market. It doesn't require as much intellectual investment by the user as HP does. If calculators were TV shows, HP would be Jeopardy! and TI would be Wheel Of Fortune. Who counts keystrokes?... Advantage of algebraic notation is that student (user, or whoever) can enter expression EXACTLY as written in textbook. I don't know how many people bother to count them, but as an (electrical) engineering student I was always trying to come up with ways to complete problems faster. Back in the early '90s when I went to college, many kids didn't have calculators that handled complex numbers or matrices yet, and they spent *much* more time doing homework and exams than I did -- I truly felt a little sorry for them. Conserved keystrokes are just another way of completing problems faster. How often does one have to enter expressions found in a textbook? Almost all engineering problems consist of being given a bunch of inputs and desired outputs and then, maniuplating a handful of equations, coming up with solutions in the form of new equations that exists only on workpad (ok, and many in the solution manual :-) ). Yes but how many people are engineers? A tiny minority of potential calculator users. TI is after the much larger market. You are right. When you are a student, you should concentrate on learning, not on some other secondary issues. When on the other hand, you are eperienced engineer or scientist, that understands the subject, secondary issues such as effectivness of work, restistance to error input etc. become the main issues of concern. That is why HP is so popular with people who already poses advanced scientific or engineering skills. Exactly! When you're a student, you should focus on learning - that is, figuring out how to do the math on your own, rather than blindly copying formulae from the textbook into a console and waiting for a result. By the time you really do understand the material, re- ordering the terms to work around either RPN or algebraic or whatever notation, shouldn't be a problem for the sort of student who actually belongs in those sorts of classes. In high school in the late 90's, we were distributed a class set of TI-86 graphing calculators 2 or 3 times: During our unit on matricies (we'd already covered the elementary operations on up to 3x3 matricies by hand or with simple AOS-type* calculators, and the graphing calculators were used to demonstrate the utility of matricies for solving much larger MxN systems), and during our unit on graphing polynomials (we'd already been shown how to sketch them by hand, and the graphing calculators were used to demonstrate whether our methods actually matched the real results). (*AOS is the terminology that TI has coined to refer to the hybrid prefix/postfix input method that was ubiquitous on non-HP calculators before EOS/textbook entry became available on non-graphic calculators about a decade ago.) In my first year of college, we weren't allowed to use any calculator at all in our pure math classes. That way we were forced to spend all of our time understanding the material itself. Various types of calculators were permitted in our applications classes like physics and chemistry. That's the way I think it should be. Actually a good example for preferring RPN. Hard to mess up the parantheses when using RPN. Where you put RPN in all this?... However, there ARE good high schools, and guys whom I know built amateur cyclotron in the basement. Half of their classes are on Columbia University. I tested RPN on them. The response was that only idiot would like this sort of stuff and after some explanation they responded: Well, this means that TI is converting algebraic notation into RPN internally?... Does HP processor has no computing power to do this or HP engineers are not smart enough to write a program? A.L. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? o So is the logic that in the hands of violent youth who never learned anything, RPN has no value, but a high-level TI ALGebraic calc does? o A teacher's attitude evidently programs the students, seeing as how they seem to express themselves so similarly. Nothing can be done on this level (of reason), however; it is all a matter of deeper repose needed within, without which education does not take place. Pearls, and all that. This sounds like the typical high-school kid who thinks he or she knows far more than he or she really does... over time the truly smart ones will realize that it's rather unlikely a bunch of highly-skilled engineers at a very successful company could have all been idiots who signed out to work with a system (RPN) that had no advantages over the alternatives. Try introducing them to CORDIC sometime and see what they have to say... most will probably dismiss it as useless as well. At that point, ask them to come up with something better... and watch them flounder. :-) Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? I don't know, particularly, if it's true .... BUT, it sounds very much like what a clever marketing department would do to prop up a product and artificially guarantee loads of sales in a market where the normal demand for the product has very much diminished over the last decade and a half.. It is probably true... or a close variation of it is probably true. The only reason is probably also a function of what you're exposed to. How many high school teachers, now a days, actually know what RPN is? How many high school teachers, many of which are younger than 27 any more (by a long shot in some instances), even REMEMBER that HP even made calculators..... not that many of them would have ever had a NEED for an HP, even if they WERE available to them while THEY were in school, some 5-10 years ago. I get the impression that a large majority of folks that frequent this forum have credentials in physics, engineering, architecture, surveying and other heavily computational fields. I am sure that many of us, myself included, are 40+ years old, went to college during the main-frame to PC metamorphosis, and found hand helds indispensible from a portability, capability and aviailability standpoint. It was hard to carry a VAX around in your back-pack, or use one on a thermo final, or a chemistry final. Those of us that had a need for such a device, and experimented between TI (or equivalent) and HP back then, IMMEDIATELY saw the superiority of the HP machines in terms of speed of use, programability, support, accessories and after market applications back in the day. MS does the same thing, btw, albeit more quietly. I teach Visual Studio 2005.Net at a local community college. I get TONS of free software from MS. Actually, they, MS, are VERY available to programming educators. IF ya hook 'em when they're learning, you got a customer for life. If I called the right number at school, I can walk home with a major version of any MS software I want. Matter of fact, if MS treated EVERY customer the way they deal with me (being an instructor) that way, the rap they get would dissappear, even if the short-comings in their products may not. TO be fair, their software has issues that make me wonder at times, but, overall, it's hard to find HUGE faults with Visual Studio. Let's face it... often good marketing trumps capability of a product... (remember the VHS vs. Beta wars?) VHS (JVC) won, Beta (Sony) lost. Although, arguably, Beta was, in every respect, a better format. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > The only reason is probably also a function of what you're exposed to. How > many high school teachers, now a days, actually know what RPN is? But why would they need that ? See, this is the key reason people tend to like TI. If you don't like RPN then TI is a better machine. I know many people who hate RPN and don't want anything to do with RPN. For years that would automatically put them into the TI camp since HP did not had algebraic even available on their top of the line models. When the algebraic was eventually added on HP49 it had the same problem that MS Windows has (plus poor hardware). It was compromised by the need to be compatible with the old, RPN based, system of the old HP48 software. So in the end it was and still is not as good as TI system, which was built to be algebraic from the day one. Now from the teacher standpoint, why would you want to teach students a notation that is different from the notation they have in their text book ? Teachers have enough problems with teaching students to understand the material that is in the standard algebraic notation. Making that even more difficult and confusing students with RPN notation / logic would make their job even more difficult. RPN by it's nature is limited to the few talented people, who have no problems with math and tend to appreciate additional power that comes from the special notation. This makes HP a niche product and TI a mainstream product. Keep in mind that even in that group RPN is not a given. There are number of math talented people who still dislike RPN and prefer algebraic calculator. > I get the impression that a large majority of folks that frequent this forum > have credentials in physics, engineering, architecture, surveying and other > heavily computational fields. I am sure that many of us, myself included, > are 40+ years old, went to college during the main-frame to PC > metamorphosis, and found hand helds indispensible from a portability, > capability and aviailability standpoint. Yeah. But those are probably the same people who claim that command line interface is powerfull and don't understand why general public prefers to pay $200 for Windows instead of using command line driven Linux for free :-) > It was hard to carry a VAX around > in your back-pack, or use one on a thermo final, or a chemistry final. Those > of us that had a need for such a device, and experimented between TI (or > equivalent) and HP back then, IMMEDIATELY saw the superiority of the HP > machines in terms of speed of use, programability, support, accessories and > after market applications back in the day. Well. You seem to forget, that when TI92/89 come to the market it outclassed HP48 and for several years HP did not responded with a machine that was competitive. And when they finally did, the HP 49 / 49g models were poorly executed in hardware. > MS does the same thing, btw, albeit more quietly. I teach Visual Studio > 2005.Net at a local community college. I get TONS of free software from MS. > Actually, they, MS, are VERY available to programming educators. IF ya hook > 'em when they're learning, you got a customer for life. If I called the > right number at school, I can walk home with a major version of any MS > software I want. Lucky !!! > Matter of fact, if MS treated EVERY customer the way they deal with me > (being an instructor) that way, the rap they get would dissappear, even if > the short-comings in their products may not. Well. I actually pay for MS products and still like them :-) > TO be fair, their software has issues that make me wonder at times, but, > overall, it's hard to find HUGE faults with Visual Studio. The studio itself is OK. I have more problems with their .NET approach. I dislike the need to have runtime installed, lack of native code and convoluted access to OS API (unless you want to go through the sadistic convolutions of C++ .NET). The garbage collection of .NET is a beautifull thing, but it would be nice if you could at the end to be able to compile the whole C# project into the native code that can be run on any Windows machine without the need of runtime being installed there first. The MFC is a DINOSAUR. If I want to make native code, Borland VCL is light years ahead of MFC. I think Borland vs Microsoft is such a HP versus TI case. Borland VCL tools seems to be a much more interesting proposal for Windows programming than MS .NET or the outadated by an era MFC approach. The only downside of VCL is that it does require programmer to free allocated resources. I would love to see MS C++ compiler being used with VCL. Borland compiler seems to be not as good as MS product these days. It's a shame that so many young people today don't even know what Borland is or was for PC industry :-) > Let's face it... often good marketing trumps capability of a product... > (remember the VHS vs. Beta wars?) VHS (JVC) won, Beta (Sony) lost. Although, > arguably, Beta was, in every respect, a better format. You can get Borland Turbo C++ (or Turbo Delphi) for free :-) Why so few people even use it today ? > (??) -- > Grumpy Aero Guy === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? <46cacd3e$0$18803$4c368faf@roadrunner.com> standpoint, why would you want to teach students a notation that is > different from the notation they have in their text book ? That's subjective. To me, RPN is like the way I learned math. You right down the numbers, one over the other, and then you draw the operator. > Teachers > have enough problems with teaching students to understand the material > that is in the standard algebraic notation. Making that even more > difficult and confusing students with RPN notation / logic would make > their job even more difficult. Those students should take up fine arts or something. I learned RPN in 20 minutes. Two years before my dad retired, I gave him my HP32-C. He learned RPN in 20 minutes and exlaimed that he couldn't believe he fumbled with algebraic for 11 years! We both saved more than 20 minutes in keystrokes....LOL. Scott Chapin === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? Those students should take up fine arts or something. I learned RPN in > 20 minutes. Two years before my dad retired, I gave him my HP32-C. He > learned RPN in 20 minutes and exlaimed that he couldn't believe he > fumbled with algebraic for 11 years! Those student probably will end up in fine arts or something, but they still have to take math in high school. That is why TI wins. It is simply designed to be more universal toward average user than HP is. Also you are falsely assuming, that if one happen to be talented in math and able to learn RPN in 20 minutes that he or she will end up liking it. That is not true. There is very large community of math and programming talented people on the TI discussion group that dislike RPN and lists that as a main reason, they will never use HP calculator. In addition it is naive to assume, that if you personally happen to be talented and like RPN, everybody else must be the same. This is in most cases ridiculous and completely empty argument. The real world uses statistics and in such TI clearly wins many times over HP. HP dominated the calculator market and lost its leadership to TI. So excuse, that the HP lacks recognition doesnt really hold the water. We both saved more than 20 minutes in keystrokes....LOL. Scott Chapin === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > Making that even more difficult and confusing students with RPN notation / logic > would make [teachers'] jobs even more difficult. > RPN by its nature is limited to the few talented people, > who have no problems with math and tend to appreciate additional power > that comes from the special notation. This makes HP a niche product > and TI a mainstream product. Somebody has to do it (support the shrinking pool of future engineers ;) But it's only a war of images, marketing and fashion, because mechanical calculators all originated as RPN (first you set the number, then you turned the crank, one way for + or the other way for -, or something similar), which is in fact the easiest and most natural thing to implement, and all early electronic calculators at first duplicated that (the only infix operators, at first, were * and /, with those calculations terminating either in =+ or =-, thus returning to a postfix addition or subtraction at the end). God only knows how all human businesses ever survived using those machines, in the hands of the mainstream everyday folk who used them, but I guess they did. A kid with an algebraic four-banger in hand might never conceive how generations of ordinary Chinese learned to do arithmetic in bi-quinary on their abaci, but I guess they also did, possibly often faster than many kids can work their four-bangers today; I wonder whether groups who used different varieties of those tools also spent their time deriding each other, just as much as do today's users. If a little RPN were the first math introduced on Sesame Street, I bet that a generation would grow up thinking that they were born using it, and would end up preferring it; it has nothing to do with talent, but simply with custom, and the culture into which one is thrust. The fact that various keystroke sequences on algebraic calculators produce widely inconsistent effects on various models (whereas this is much less true of more unambiguous RPN) of course also has no bearing on the issue of confusion vs. consistency. For years, some calculators have accommodated both systems, and will work either way, as preferred, but don't let that stand in the way of throwing up all the flak one can think of, valid or not, for dissent is an important right, especially for people from certain once violently oppressed countries where sometimes it seems that an exercise in continuing dissent must be found every day, just to stay in practice. One of the great advantages of HP is that its interface allows much easier and deeper integration of software, where TI seems rather as a group of unrelated pieces of software that have hard time to talk to each other. [in last link above] > ...those are probably the same people who claim that command > line interface is powerful and don't understand why general public > prefers to pay $200 for Windows instead of using command line driven > Linux for free :-) Because manufacturers were forced to buy it for every PC they made? Because they like the free ad-ware that comes with it? Windows supports scripting (and Cygwin); Linux supports GUIs; multi-platform software appears almost identical on each, I just installed Windows XP on a Mac Mini (using Boot Camp); you can have all advantages of all worlds within each product, just as in calculators, but of course at the cost of some of the fun of having the old enemy to keep battling. > [Visual] studio itself is OK. I have more problems with their .NET > approach. I dislike the need to have runtime installed, lack of native > code and convoluted access to OS API (unless you want to go through > the sadistic convolutions of C++ .NET). The garbage collection of .NET > is a beautiful thing, but it would be nice if you could at the end to > be able to compile the whole C# project into the native code that can > be run on any Windows machine without the need of runtime being > installed there first... Like the entire world (or universe), no one single spot is paradise for everyone, but there are good beaches for surfing and sunning here, good snow for skiing there, a packed city full of shopping, dining and arts here, a pristine woods for quiet repose there, an enormous range of niches -- variety is the spice of life. Jelly And Marmalade too -- why not? ;-) (o) === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? <46cacd3e$0$18803$4c368faf@roadrunner.com> because mechanical calculators all originated as RPN > (first you set the number, then you turned the crank, > one way for + or the other way for -, or something similar), > which is in fact the easiest and most natural thing to implement, > and all early electronic calculators at first duplicated that > (the only infix operators, at first, were * and /, > with those calculations terminating either in =+ or =-, > thus returning to a postfix addition or subtraction at the end). John. One could make an argument, that primitive machines have primitve interfaces beacuse early (especially mechanical) technology has always problems with implementing advanced features :-) I happen to be RPN fan big time. I almost always prefer to use HP over TI. But even I hate RPN notation when it is used in programming. How would you explain, that almost every modern programming language is using algebraic notation for mathematical calculations ? > A kid with an algebraic four-banger in hand might never conceive > how generations of ordinary Chinese learned to do arithmetic > in bi-quinary on their abaci, but I guess they also did, > possibly often faster than many kids can work their four-bangers today; > I wonder whether groups who used different varieties of those tools also > spent their time deriding each other, just as much as do today's users. You don't have to look to the Far East. Find me an engineer who can fly a man to the moon using slide rule these days :-) > If a little RPN were the first math introduced on Sesame Street, > I bet that a generation would grow up thinking that they were born using it, > and would end up preferring it; it has nothing to do with talent, > but simply with custom, and the culture into which one is thrust. I disagree. RPN notation is more difficult to read. It is faster in action but slower to follow if written by somebody else. I have a hard time when deciphering RPN code even written by myself when it is more than couple of weeks old. > The fact that various keystroke sequences on algebraic calculators > produce widely inconsistent effects on various models > (whereas this is much less true of more unambiguous RPN) > of course also has no bearing on the issue > of confusion vs. consistency. The algebraic notation is not ambigious when properly implemented. It usually requires more keystrokes, parenthesis and forward thinking by the user, but otherwise is straigthforward. What you have described, is how difficult it is to implement properly such interface on the primitive technology of the cheap calculator. > One of the great advantages of HP is that its interface > allows much easier and deeper integration of software, > where TI seems rather as a group of unrelated pieces of software > that have hard time to talk to each other. [in last link above] I still stand by this :-) > ...those are probably the same people who claim that command > line interface is powerful and don't understand why general public > prefers to pay $200 for Windows instead of using command line driven > Linux for free :-) Because manufacturers were forced to buy it for every PC they made? > Because they like the free ad-ware that comes with it? You kidding. Several companies tired to sell PC with Linux. They all failed in the marketplace despite price advantege over Windows machines. > Windows supports scripting (and Cygwin); Linux supports GUIs; Yes, but try to intall antyhing that did not came with package on Linux. I do not dislike Linux. I'm one, who could probably use it if it would run all my software and hardware. I even tried to convince my daughter to use one. She lived with Linux for a few weeks, than asked me to take this crap out of her computer and install Windows (which I was forced to buy). I also did attempted to convince few of my friends to use Linux of the computers that I build for them. I tend to build my PC's and I also do that for few of my closest friends who trust me with this stuff. The attempt was as futile as with my daughter. I don't even propose Linux to anybody anymore. I would install such if anybody would ask specifically for it but nobody asks for it these days. All Linux suporters and lovers take that to your heart. In my experience this is a typical reaction of the majority of casual computer users to Linux. People like my daughter are typical everyday consumers who have no idea about big Linux versus Windows war and do not know about big Microsoft conspiracy to enslave humanity. They are just consumers who prefer better product and are willing to pay for it. Well in case of my daugter, you can rgue, that I end up paying for that. so it was for her a choice between free Windows and free Linux :-) and free Winodows won. But in case of my friends that was not the case. Windowx XP OEM version still costs about $100 and my friends were well aware, that they are adding this amount of money for the privilige of running Windows PC, not Linux PC. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? [..] >which was built to be algebraic from the day one. Now from the teacher >standpoint, why would you want to teach students a notation that is >different from the notation they have in their text book ? Teachers >have enough problems with teaching students to understand the material >that is in the standard algebraic notation. Making that even more >difficult and confusing students with RPN notation / logic would make >their job even more difficult. RPN by it's nature is limited to the >few talented people, who have no problems with math and tend to >appreciate additional power that comes from the special notation. This >makes HP a niche product and TI a mainstream product. Keep in mind >that even in that group RPN is not a given. There are number of math >talented people who still dislike RPN and prefer algebraic calculator. Very true. HP enthusiasts and promoters - please read twice. Or better, three times Finally, if TI-89 owner wants RPN, he can install RPN front end. Works more or less as good as algebraic mode on HP-50. A.L. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > Finally, if TI-89 owner wants RPN, he can install RPN front end. Works > more or less as good as algebraic mode on HP-50. Do you have a link to a version that works with HW3 or HW4 calculators? My Titanium doesn't seem to like the RPN version I found. Tom Lake === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? <46cacd3e$0$18803$4c368faf@roadrunner.com> <5n0mc39kcb8hbh5j057fk198trrnulkq0o@4ax.com Finally, if TI-89 owner wants RPN, he can install RPN front end. Works > more or less as good as algebraic mode on HP-50. A.L. The biggest dissapoitment for me about TI89 was, that the TI Basic is so slow even when compared to the old Saturn based HP and that the program output goes to that useless for further computation output screen instead of stack / history screen. I don't think that RPN add- in fixed that problem. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > Finally, if TI-89 owner wants RPN, he can install RPN front end. Works >> more or less as good as algebraic mode on HP-50. >> A.L. The biggest dissapoitment for me about TI89 was, that the TI Basic is >so slow even when compared to the old Saturn based HP Well, 10 MHz processor is 10 MHz processor. But do I really need speed on calculator?... >and that the >program output goes to that useless for further computation output >screen instead of stack / history screen. What about dending results to variables?.. A.L. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? >The biggest dissapoitment for me about TI89 was, that the TI Basic is >so slow even when compared to the old Saturn based HP Well, 10 MHz processor is 10 MHz processor. But do I really need speed > on calculator?... Saturn processor of the old HP48 and HP49 was way slower than MC68000 and despite this the old HP48 was generally faster in executing programs than TI92. I'm not comparing TI to modern HP50 or 49G. I know that new HP ARM CPU is much more powerfull than the TI Motorola. >and that the >program output goes to that useless for further computation output >screen instead of stack / history screen. What about dending results to variables?.. You missed the point. Sure, there are workarounds. The point is that in HP every program in RPN becomes automatically an extension to the build in commands since it is capable of taking input from the stack and returning output to the stack (or history in algebraic mode) just like every build in command does. This is beautifull integration of the programming into the OS. When using TI this is not possible unless you restrict yourself to writing Functions only. Programs which produce output on the different screen that has to be switechd off if you want to return to calculator mode are not a natural extension of the build in command. I found that to be a bad, counterproductive design of the OS. Key here is that the HP 28 (which was the first HP calculator with an OS that was the predecessor of the current HP 50 OS) had this functionality years ahead of TI. I never understood why TI did not copy this feature. A.L. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? <46cacd3e$0$18803$4c368faf@roadrunner.com> <5n0mc39kcb8hbh5j057fk198trrnulkq0o@4ax.com> People have a tendency not to change. At my shcool EVERYONE has a TI calculator. ONLY about 5 people know that Casio/HP also make calculators. Teachers probably get a discount on TI products and large viewers (so entire class can see). Furthermore, TI calculators are mainstream so if you want ANY feature of another calculator, just download a program. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? [and WinDiff] > it's hard to find HUGE faults with Visual Studio. And if Visual Studio produced WinDiff, it also can't be all bad :) How to Use the Windiff.exe Utility http://support.microsoft.com/kb/159214 In Microsoft Windows 2000 and later, Windiff.exe is included on the original CD-ROM in the SupportTools folder. Windiff.exe is also in the Support.cab file. Support.cab is included with every service pack. Windows XP Service Pack 2 Support Tools http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=49ae8576-9bb9-4126- 9761-ba8011fabf38 (Though the W2K version has easier copy files option) All that Windiff is missing is drag & drop for input files and directories: http://www.codeproject.com/tools/runwindiff.asp -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? <46cacd3e$0$18803$4c368faf@roadrunner.com It was hard to carry a VAX around > in your back-pack, or use one on a thermo final, or a chemistry final. Those > of us that had a need for such a device, and experimented between TI (or > equivalent) and HP back then, IMMEDIATELY saw the superiority of the HP > machines in terms of speed of use, programability, support, accessories and > after market applications back in the day. > Ditto here, except that I had to use a log-log slide rule on the thermo final, and the HP-25 on the Master's Comps. :-) Let's face it... often good marketing trumps capability of a product... > (remember the VHS vs. Beta wars?) VHS (JVC) won, Beta (Sony) lost. Although, > arguably, Beta was, in every respect, a better format. > Another example: Vista. MAC anyone? -goog49 === Subject: Re: new 50g user, seeking advice... do you think that the program will work in the calculator rather than > the ROM or, its the same and still wont work on the calculator? > that are ASCII. it only runs binary format. i have tried other > programs and they seem to work nicely. When human-readable (ascii) program files are transferred to a real calc > using file-transfer (cable) software, they are automatically translated > and compiled on the calculator, becoming binary internal objects. If you drop the files on the emulator stack or bring to a calculator > on an SD card, the text strings can be compiled using the STR-> or OBJ- command, but often they first need a bit of translation to replace > -> (three characters) by the single 8-bit character representing > right arrow, and similarly for << and >> and all the other > representations of 8-bit characters using 7-bit character sequences. The calculator has internal functions to do that, but you need > a small program to invoke those internal functions manually; > you can also do that first on a PC. The emulator will run virtually everything the same as on the calculator, > except for programs written to use the internal ARM processor > (bypassing the HP operating system) which thus far you are not using. Character translation on PC:http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3671http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emu lators/hpbinasc.zip > [r->] [OFF] thank you for the info john, is there any way to know if a program will run on my 50g or not. the program i am interested is made for HP49g, do you think it will work in my 50g? because i have read in many forums that the 49 and 50 are just the same, only some little difference and hp calculators are backward compatible. what do you think is wrong with the program because it says thatget error: bad argument value when executed. did i do anything wrong on storing the program and executing it on the emulator? i dragged and dropped the program, named it, enter, then pressed STO. i executed the program using the VAR button, some options came out but when it is the time to input values the program needs to execute, it says the errorget error: bad argument value when in fact i haven't inputted anything yet. thanx in advance john. hope to hear from you and everyone else. elly === Subject: Re: new 50g user, seeking advice... > what do you think is wrong with the program because it says get > error: bad argument value when executed. did i do anything wrong on > storing the program and executing it on the emulator? i dragged and > dropped the program, named it, enter, then pressed STO. If you mean Reinforced Concrete Design and Analysis http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=6531 http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/science/civil/rcdesign101.zip Name the original variable 'PRGM' (where you store the program), in CAPS (despite not being caps in the zip file, it may need this exact, capitalized name when running). > i executed the program using the VAR button, some options came out > but when it is the time to input values the program needs to execute, > it says get error: bad argument value Included file PRGM manual.doc (can be opened in WordPad or Word) has many sections (note the required MODE settings at the very beginning); which section are you following, what step are you up to, and what data (or operations) did you enter (or perform)? [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: new 50g user, seeking advice... > what do you think is wrong with the program because it says get > error: bad argument value when executed. did i do anything wrong on > storing the program and executing it on the emulator? i dragged and > dropped the program, named it, enter, then pressed STO. If you mean Reinforced Concrete Design and Analysishttp://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=6531http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49 /science/civil/rcdesign101.zip Name the original variable 'PRGM' (where you store the program), in CAPS > (despite not being caps in the zip file, it may need this exact, > capitalized name when running). > i executed the program using the VAR button, some options came out > but when it is the time to input values the program needs to execute, > it says get error: bad argument value Included file PRGM manual.doc (can be opened in WordPad or Word) > has many sections (note the required MODE settings at the very beginning); > which section are you following, what step are you up to, > and what data (or operations) did you enter (or perform)? [r->] [OFF] yehey! the first solution worked! thank you very much john! you really helped me a lot. you have to name the program PRGM. hope to hear from you again! again, thank you for all the help! also for giancarlo... maybe you can help me on one more thing, where did you start learning all this things? i was hoping i can also be good in my calculator like you. did you start learning userRPL? or you started reading all the manual on basic operations first? again, thank you for all the help! elly === Subject: Re: new 50g user, seeking advice... > where did you start learning all these things? > i was hoping i can also be good in my calculator. > did you start learning userRPL? or you started > reading all the manual on basic operations first? I bet that would be dull reading :) Looking for what one needs is good. Looking for what one enjoys to explore is good. If one does not enjoy, perhaps not so good; one could end up so narrowed and specialized, knowing more and more about less and less, that finally we know everything -- about nothing :) Our schools look in another direction, to spend some time being so quiet as to have no thought, yet so wakeful that one seems to know (or relate to) everything, and indeed, develop the deep awareness that the world, and all that's in it, is my own family, my own self within. With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu and http://www.maharishischooliowa.org -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Printing and the HP50G What I used in my program was /SigmaList, (/Sigma is capital greek > sigma) and SIZE commands , but , when given p = { } or p = {p1} I get > message /SigmaList InvalidDimension. > I've worked around error message for p = { } , using IFERR equaling > sum with 0, but this doesn't help when I have p = { p1 } , > when I need to get /SigmaList = p1 . > Any thoughts how to fix this? SigmaList applies to any list elements that + can apply to, including matrices, strings, and even other lists; therefore: o It has no meaning for an empty list (Should it return an empty string? An empty list? A zeroed matrix[dimensions?]) o It can't apply + in a list of only one object, e.g. { << >> } (perhaps the next object will be a string? or a program?) so the calc also objects in this case. If you happen to know that you are summing *numeric* lists, try { 0 0 } + SigmaList [now handles empty and 1-item lists] Similarly, { 1 1 } + PiList for numeric products. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Newbie HP owner needs some programming help PLS What I used in my program was /SigmaList, (/Sigma is capital greek > sigma) and SIZE commands , but , when given p = { } or p = {p1} I get > message /SigmaList InvalidDimension. > I've worked around error message for p = { } , using IFERR equaling > sum with 0, but this doesn't help when I have p = { p1 } , > when I need to get /SigmaList = p1 . > Any thoughts how to fix this? SigmaList applies to any list elements that + can apply to, > including matrices, strings, and even other lists; therefore: o It has no meaning for an empty list > (Should it return an empty string? An empty list? A zeroed matrix[dimensions?]) o It can't apply + in a list of only one object, > e.g. { << >> } (perhaps the next object will be > a string? or a program?) so the calc also objects in this case. If you happen to know that you are summing *numeric* lists, > try { 0 0 } + SigmaList [now handles empty and 1-item lists] Similarly, { 1 1 } + PiList for numeric products. [r->] [OFF] programs some more , though. @A. I. yeah, TI is a calculator for the kids. I had a TI 83 plus years back.... === Subject: Re: Newbie HP owner needs some programming help PLS What I used in my program was /SigmaList, (/Sigma is capital greek > sigma) and SIZE commands , but , when given p = { } or p = {p1} I get > message /SigmaList InvalidDimension. > I've worked around error message for p = { } , using IFERR equaling > sum with 0, but this doesn't help when I have p = { p1 } , > when I need to get /SigmaList = p1 . > Any thoughts how to fix this? SigmaList applies to any list elements that + can apply to, > including matrices, strings, and even other lists; therefore: o It has no meaning for an empty list > (Should it return an empty string? An empty list? A zeroed matrix[dimensions?]) o It can't apply + in a list of only one object, > e.g. { << >> } (perhaps the next object will be > a string? or a program?) so the calc also objects in this case. If you happen to know that you are summing *numeric* lists, > try { 0 0 } + SigmaList [now handles empty and 1-item lists] Similarly, { 1 1 } + PiList for numeric products. [r->] [OFF] What explains why I prefer JHM's replies ;-) Giancarlo === Subject: Re: Newbie HP owner needs some programming help PLS PS. I'm using HP 50g === Subject: Re: Newbie HP owner needs some programming help PLS > PS. I'm using HP 50g << -> LISTP LISTZ << LISTP SigmaLIST LISTZ SigmaLIST - LISTP SIZE LISTZ SIZE - / >> === Subject: Re: Newbie HP owner needs some programming help PLS >> PS. I'm using HP 50g << -> LISTP LISTZ > << LISTP SigmaLIST LISTZ SigmaLIST - LISTP SIZE LISTZ SIZE - / > > What explaints why shools are using TI... A.L. === Subject: Re: Newbie HP owner needs some programming help PLS >> PS. I'm using HP 50g >><< -> LISTP LISTZ >> << LISTP SigmaLIST LISTZ SigmaLIST - LISTP SIZE LISTZ SIZE - / >> >>What explaints why shools are using TI... A.L. Plonk! === Subject: Re: Newbie HP owner needs some programming help PLS PS. I'm using HP 50g >><< -> LISTP LISTZ >> << LISTP SigmaLIST LISTZ SigmaLIST - LISTP SIZE LISTZ SIZE - / >What explaints why shools are using TI... >A.L. Plonk! Welcome to the club ;) KillFile in Mozila does great job - the MI5 Reth === Subject: Re: Calculator defined > No! don't forget C... hpgcc will be back very soon! could you please tell us someth. about your progress and roadmap regarding hpgcc ? since February 07 there are rumours, that V3.0 will be released soon could you please be more specific ? thx and brgds -- tiwag === Subject: Re: Calculator defined OpenPGP: id=14137F7D; url=http://hpgcc.org/pgp_key_14137F7D.txt -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 <.. since February 07 there are rumours, that V3.0 will be released > soon Not spread by HPGCC team members, though ... > could you please be more specific ? All we can say at the moment is, that we plan a *non public* beta test with a preview release, which is as is and not considered stable in any respect. We will announce further details and how to apply just in time in the usual places. - -- Ingo Blank http://hpgcc.org http://blog.hpgcc.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGytLOr9bi0BQTf30RAnmAAJ9PvEstqW7RdDxlFq+nMS/YgkQ+vQCffQCk IEYZXiQAZj2sQT6SZO2Ng8g= =EFXr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- === Subject: Re: Calculator defined > Ok, i spent few hours reading about Lua, > as it seams Lua runs by interpreting bytecode for a register-based virtual > machine > so i immagine it's more like a virtual processor so i belive it would be > feasible to implement other syntaxes to VM. with about 15 to 20 opcodes only, and they are very specific to the LUA language, like for instance one opcode is FOR and does everything concerning a LUA 'for' loop. I think other languages will have a tough time trying to use this VM. But you can still write interpreters or simply 'syntax translators' and let Lua recompile it. > like i said it's just a matter of compiler, anyway, Lua alone would be > refreshing enough, with time > (if there would be interest for it) other sytaxes may be introduced. There is lua for Linux, Windows, WinCE, Symbian, BREW etc... so > platform independent programs could run on PDA, PC, Network server as well > as on our calculators *very nice* Yes, I actually compiled in Win32 with VS2005 and it compiled with no errors and no warnings. Very surprising. It's plain C so it can run anywhere where an ANSI C compiler can run (that fact adds a few hundreds platforms to your list above). Then you need to write libraries (drivers) for the hardware layer, of course. Again even if there was only Lua syntax available it would be a great > refreshment, *and* > since RPL is simple language it may be possible to compile system and user > RPL (without Saturn assembly) > to Lua byte code. (of course this is a long-shot wild guess but... never say never !) OK, as soon as we get the kernel running we write a userRPL compiler, right? ;-) So when are you gonna start coding your dream machine? Claudio === Subject: Re: Calculator defined > OK, as soon as we get the kernel running we write a userRPL compiler, > right? ;-) no doubt, don't you think it would be great :-) > So when are you gonna start coding your dream machine? Claudio yes i read it is simple C well... i can't promise much, are you gathering the documentation on Lua VM internals and drivers ? see you later manjo === Subject: Re: Calculator defined > well... i can't promise much, are you gathering the documentation > on Lua VM internals and drivers ? I'm already using Lua for other project, so I'm familiar with the API (not an expert but familiar). Regarding drivers, everything is defined as an external library, so you don't need to modify Lua to write the HAL, except we could modify directly the standard libraries to make it more portable. Much of the hardware layer can be provided by hpgcc (or extracted from it, or completely rewritten, but the knowledge is there), we only need to register the library functions with the Lua kernel. At the beginning, the new kernel should be an hpgcc application. Once it is complete enough to run by itself, it can be detached from hpgcc and take over the entire OS. Take your time and let me know when you are ready to start with the project. I'm currently busy with hpgcc and other projects so there's no rush. Planning is as important as coding, if we want a solid platform we need to think it well first. Claudio === Subject: Re: Calculator defined > I am following this discussion with real amusement. It has the same > tone and intellectual depth as discussion of kindergarten kids whose > MatchBox car is more real. Well... These cars are all matchbox cars. > Not real. Means: toys. This is make believe game. Thats strange. I have plenty of people willing to pay about $2,000 for a toy in a box for serious work. So good that we are doing a major European launch with a distributor Sept 1. > TI calculators are good quality. Well designed. Doing exactly what > needed and doing well. And they are fine products, for students, like you point out. Like I point out to people asking my opinion on what calculator to buy. For that don't want to put effort into learning the more complex system that has more power and capability, they are fine products . . . if you like squishy keys. Just because it is more difficult to learn at first doesn't mean it isn't worth it. In my opinion it is. > I have NO IDEA why I would need expansion card > in calculator. I have NO IDEA why I would ever make serious > calculations on device with screen a bit bigger than a post stamp and > with lousy contrast, no-qwerty keyboard with 25 different functions > assigned to each key and without basic mathematical tools. Like I said, you don't do any serious work on them. That is why you don't care if they are good or not. I do serious work, so I want improvement. > P.S. Why TI-99 processor is not real processor?... And, by the way, > maybe you could buy TI-99 and play a bit? My first TI was TI-95. You > would like them. I have two TI calculators. I know them. I don't like them because they don't do what I need. TW PS - Just because you are a sad, old, bitter individual doesn't mean others can't have their own opinions and that your's is the right one. You are entitled to your own opinion, but it does get old having your constant negative dribble on almost every post here. Expressing the same thing over and over again contributes nothing. === Subject: Re: Any Way to Stop this MI5 Idiot? > Google and free servers don't care about trash. How would you know? Have you seen the Report this message link on each message at Google? (in more options) Those postings all furnished the same (fake) sender address, and if you click on View profile, you'll see that it has been banned for TOS violation (not effective for the future, but shows that some response has actually occurred at present); to whose attention the matter also might be called (providers also have some responsibility for policing trash, as do people upon whose reports any such policing depends). This group's archives (going back to its inception) are a valuable resource, especially when backed by an excellent search engine; does anyone else but Google provide that service? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/117000.html -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Any Way to Stop this MI5 Idiot? On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 07:56:54 -0500, John H Meyers > Google and free servers don't care about trash. How would you know? Have you seen the Report this message link on each message at Google? >(in more options) > But it doesn't help This group's archives (going back to its inception) are a valuable >resource, especially when backed by an excellent search engine; >does anyone else but Google provide that service? > are whole COUNTRIES (Poland for example), where 99% of posts Google not reacting to complains sent to abuse. >Don't look a gift horse in the mouth >http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/117000.html > Yes. During Soviet era there was dissident singer, Vysotski. He had a song with phrase spasiba chto zhyvoi what means roughly speaking, mentality has no borders... And time limits... A.L. === Subject: Re: Any Way to Stop this MI5 Idiot? On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 08:29:12 -0500: > It seems that this mentality has no borders... And time limits... A braying donkey is at least good for carrying heavy burdens. -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Any Way to Stop this MI5 Idiot? Is this group totallty unmoderated? Is there any way to ban the poster > of this BS? The group is unmoderated. My usual advice would be to acquire access to > a real Usenest newsfeed, and use a real newsreader to read and post; > you may already have such access via your ISP, although many are dropping > it. I use XNews, a Windows newsreader that works nicely, and has > flexible score-files and kill-files (though it's not perfect, or really > flexible enough to suit me; for instance, I can't filter on any arbitrary > header, just some of them.) Alternatively, if you want to continue using Google Groups for some > reason, you can perform some trickery that will hide his posts from you, > if you are willing to use Firefox as a web browser. You would also have > to use the Greasemonkey add-on to Firefox, and a script that adds a kill- > file to Google Groups. Google itself will provide you will all relevent > details if you serach for Google killfile greasemonkey or similar. > Greasemonkey is a general-purpose tool to add or modify javascript on a > per-web-page basis, and has many, many other uses besides kill-filing. > Googling greasemonkey will reveal many of them to you. -- > Dave Boyd > If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall > like a house of cards. Checkmate. -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P. The idiot is now gone :) Reth === Subject: Re: Any Way to Stop this MI5 Idiot? I agree that the use of a newsfeeder is probably helpful. I use the newsfeeder from my ISP (Swisscom) and Mozilla Thunderbird as a reader. I never even noticed that there was a problem until your post and cross-checking on the Google Group. > Is this group totallty unmoderated? Is there any way to ban the poster >> of this BS? The group is unmoderated. My usual advice would be to acquire access to > a real Usenest newsfeed, and use a real newsreader to read and post; > you may already have such access via your ISP, although many are dropping > it. I use XNews, a Windows newsreader that works nicely, and has > flexible score-files and kill-files (though it's not perfect, or really > flexible enough to suit me; for instance, I can't filter on any arbitrary > header, just some of them.) Alternatively, if you want to continue using Google Groups for some > reason, you can perform some trickery that will hide his posts from you, > if you are willing to use Firefox as a web browser. You would also have > to use the Greasemonkey add-on to Firefox, and a script that adds a kill- > file to Google Groups. Google itself will provide you will all relevent > details if you serach for Google killfile greasemonkey or similar. > Greasemonkey is a general-purpose tool to add or modify javascript on a > per-web-page basis, and has many, many other uses besides kill-filing. > Googling greasemonkey will reveal many of them to you. === Subject: Re: Any Way to Stop this MI5 Idiot? Similar here. My ISP seems to filter out certain noise, including the one in the topic. For the remaining noise I defined some filters for my offline newsreader. Christoph Widmer schrieb im Newsbeitrag >I agree that the use of a newsfeeder is probably helpful. I use the >newsfeeder from my ISP (Swisscom) and Mozilla Thunderbird as a reader. I >never even noticed that there was a problem until your post and >cross-checking on the Google Group. >> Is this group totallty unmoderated? Is there any way to ban the poster > of this BS? >> The group is unmoderated. My usual advice would be to acquire access to >> a real Usenest newsfeed, and use a real newsreader to read and post; [..] === Subject: Re: Any Way to Stop this MI5 Idiot? >> Is this group totallty unmoderated? Is there any way to ban the poster >> of this BS? Feel yourself lucky you're not trying to read sci.crypt. > Over there, we've been under attack for about 2 months now, > === > At least filtering 'Subject:.*MI5 Persecution' is simple in many > newsreaders. -- > Chris. Now I know why I prefer something like Yahoo groups where at least non owner abandoned groups can have control over who posts and idiots like this one can be banned from the group. Rich W === Subject: Re: Any Way to Stop this MI5 Idiot? > Now I know why I prefer something like Yahoo groups where at least non > owner abandoned groups can have control over who posts and idiots like > this one can be banned from the group. Moderated Yahoo groups have their own set of disadvantages. If the owner dies or leaves, then the moderation is still in force without a moderator and the group dies. One Yahoo group that I am a member of has a different problem: One day, years ago, a moderator experimented by switching the group to approval required to join, so that no one could join without an invitation, and then found that there was no way to switch it back, and no attempt to contact Yahoo to rectify the situation bore fruit, so it's that way still -- and this was a group that was attempting to promote a hobby, so it very much wanted to be open to new members. Ironically, the group had been formed by regular posters to an unmoderated Usenet group who were tired of flamewars between a couple of regular posters, a situation any good newsreader would have rendered invisible. Now there are perpetual discussions about whether (or when) to make a new group and switch over to it, or to fragment further by special interest, or to move back to Usenet... Politics, politics, politics. These days, the Usenet group is much less used, the Yahoo group has become not much fun, and readership has fragmented to many other places, so that there is no one place where something can be posted that will be read by a majority of the interested group. (If I wanted the HP community to read something, I'd post in two places: here, and the HPmuseum forums, with a note to non-English-as-a-first-language readers to re-post where appropriate.) I also note that this group pre-dates Yahoo. -- Dave Boyd If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P. === Subject: Re: Any Way to Stop this MI5 Idiot? >> Is this group totallty unmoderated? Is there any way to ban the poster >> of this BS? > > Feel yourself lucky you're not trying to read sci.crypt. > Over there, we've been under attack for about 2 months now, > === > At least filtering 'Subject:.*MI5 Persecution' is simple in many > newsreaders. > > -- > Chris. Now I know why I prefer something like Yahoo groups where at least non > owner abandoned groups can have control over who posts and idiots like > this one can be banned from the group. Rich W If you have a good enough newsreader, you can killfile almost anything, including authors or threads you do not want to see. In some of the newsgroups I lurk in, I killfile the vast majority of posts, so as to see few that I am not interested in reading. See, for example, http://www.newsreaders.com/ === Subject: Where can i download the ROM 2.10-7 for HP 50g Hi people... I`m looking for the unnofficial ROM version 2.10-7... Can anybody tell me where can i find it? === Subject: Re: Where can i download the ROM 2.10-7 for HP 50g you tell me how it goes and if you notice anything different? === Subject: Re: Where can i download the ROM 2.10-7 for HP 50g you tell me how it goes and if you notice anything different? I`m using it since july, it run great!... it`s very very good... it`s only that i didn`t remember the link... tnx... === Subject: Re: Where can i download the ROM 2.10-7 for HP 50g > you tell me how it goes and if you notice anything different? I`m using it since july, it run great!... it`s very very good... it`s > only that i didn`t remember the link... tnx... The official site is this http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/english.html This ROM is maintained by: Bermard Parisse... Download ROM : ftp://ftp-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/xcas/hpcas/hp49g.zip Documentation in English: ftp://ftp-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/xcas/hpcas/geometry.pdf www.hpjhuavi.zor.org/ === Subject: Re: Where can i download the ROM 2.10-7 for HP 50g >> you tell me how it goes and if you notice anything different? >> I`m using it since july, it run great!... it`s very very good... it`s >> only that i didn`t remember the link... tnx... The official site is this http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/english.html >This ROM is maintained by: Bermard Parisse... Why not by HP?... A.L. === Subject: Re: Where can i download the ROM 2.10-7 for HP 50g <62rmc317c3krqpcgvg9shjq7n9fp34d041@4ax.com >The official site is thishttp://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/english.html >This ROM is maintained by: Bermard Parisse... Why not by HP?... A.L. Well, the only official source for ROMs is HP's customer support website. It is at version 2.09 (HP calls it v.92). However, Bernard Parisse (the original author of the CAS of the HP49) has decided to release his work under the LGPL, and to provide some unofficial extensions to it, such as an interactive geometry applet. In order for that CAS to be of any use at all, it must be bundled with a the rest of the calculator's Flash ROM. Mr. Parisse doesn't have permission to release the rest of the ROM under the LGPL, but apparently he does have an in with the powers-that-be at HP, because he does appear to have authority to act as an original distributor of the rest of the firmware solely for the purpose of making his CAS functional. Coincidentally, Mr. Parisse's ROM is backward compatible with the original HP 49 calculator as well, and his website is now the only means of keeping the HP-49's features up to date with its 49G+ and 50G siblings. I tend to think of it as not entirely dissimilar to the way in which Sun uses the opensource OpenOffice.org as the basis for developing technology that eventually goes into its proprietary StarOffice suite. Or the way in which RedHat uses Fedora as the test bed for its officially supported RHEL. - Luke === Subject: Re: Where can i download the ROM 2.10-7 for HP 50g Coincidentally, Mr. Parisse's ROM is backward compatible with the >original HP 49 calculator as well, and his website is now the only >means of keeping the HP-49's features up to date with its 49G+ and 50G >siblings. A.L. === Subject: Re: Where can i download the ROM 2.10-7 for HP 50g >> you tell me how it goes and if you notice anything different? >> I`m using it since july, it run great!... it`s very very good... it`s >> only that i didn`t remember the link... tnx... >The official site is thishttp://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/english.html >This ROM is maintained by: Bermard Parisse... Why not by HP?... A.L. Because the ROM was liberated and anyone can modify. www.hpjhuavi.zor.org/ === Subject: Re: Where can i download the ROM 2.10-7 for HP 50g <62rmc317c3krqpcgvg9shjq7n9fp34d041@4ax.com> OK. Timeout. I thought HP's official ROM was the latest. I guess I was wrong. So what's different (really different, I am lazy and don't want to read the documentation ;) and is it worth upgrading? === Subject: Re: Where can i download the ROM 2.10-7 for HP 50g > OK. Timeout. I thought HP's official ROM was the latest. I guess I was > wrong. So what's different (really different, I am lazy and don't want > to read the documentation ;) and is it worth upgrading? > there's not much documentation to read... one should be glad that there may have been introduced by the additional applications (I wonder where the heck Mr. Parisse got the nibbles from to put those apps in ROM? I thought they were already quite used up ;-) The included readme.txt names some (all?) of the modifications (more details on bugs.hpcalc.org): -Fix in summation, variable counter is now independant of global variables (B210-7) -Fix potential problem when using sum of sum like: SUM(N=0,3,SUM(M=0,N,COMB(N,M-N)) (B210-6) -Remove battery check before using serial port and writing to flash or SD card (B210-6) -Fix TRACE to check for square matrix (B210-5) -Fix Lin Solve input form to convert matrix into array (B210-5) -Add Periodic Table library (B210-5) -Fix http://bugs.hpcalc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=228 (B210-4) -Fix EqnLib solver menu when called from APPS application (B210) that's very nice, isn't it? however B = beta :-o === Subject: Re: SortA, SortB > Hi... Could anybody please tell me what`s the function of SortA and SortB > commands in Spreadsheet??? ROM 2.10-7.... Hi... Could anybody please tell me what`s the function of SortA and SortB commands in Spreadsheet??? ROM 2.10-7.... === Subject: Re: SortA, SortB [2.10-7 et CAPES] > Could anybody please tell me what`s the function of SortA and SortB > commands in Spreadsheet??? ROM 2.10-7.... Searching for the word SortA in Google's archives of this group brought up this long thread: ROM 2.10-7 / HP49G+/50G [started 2006/10/30, includes posts by CAS author BP] Someone [post#16] said Don't just press ENTER after SORTA and After using this app, my CATalog blew away [Insufficient Memory] Then JYA [post#17] said [in response to report of a TTRM crash] the spreadsheet is a bit unstable... I wouldn't use it too seriously if you care for your data. And in post#18: This is not an HP release whatsoever And BP [post#19] said It's a ROM that should allow the HP49 for the French math teachers recruitement (named CAPES). Geometry and a small spreadsheet are required for this, hence the new apps... The spreadsheet... has not been as tested as the geometry CAPES is mentioned again [2006/12/13] in: Post#16 (above) was actually mine, but I haven't the faintest recollection of what SortA was about -- what does it seem to do for you? [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: SortA, SortB [2.10-7 et CAPES] Could anybody please tell me what`s the function of SortA and SortB > commands in Spreadsheet??? ROM 2.10-7.... brought up this long thread: ROM 2.10-7 / HP49G+/50G Someone [post#16] said Don't just press ENTER after SORTA > and After using this app, my CATalog blew away [Insufficient Memory] Then JYA [post#17] said [in response to report of a TTRM crash] > the spreadsheet is a bit unstable... > I wouldn't use it too seriously if you care for your data. And in post#18: This is not an HP release whatsoever And BP [post#19] said > It's a ROM that should allow the HP49 for the French math > teachers recruitement (named CAPES). Geometry and a small > spreadsheet are required for this, hence the new apps... > The spreadsheet... has not been as tested as the geometry > Post#16 (above) was actually mine, but I haven't the faintest recollection > of what SortA was about -- what does it seem to do for you? [r->] [OFF] innexistent... By the way i have 2.10-7 in my 50g since July and it run very good... it have been working without problems... === Subject: RPN Calculator in Excel or Java? Has anyone seen (or perhaps already done) a RPN calculator/simulator in Excel(VBA) or Java? My particular interest has been picqued by writing code for the HP35s and wanting to be able to see the data memory as the algorithm was executing. While there are several simulators(even bit-accurate emulators) out there for various machines, I was thinking it would be nice to have a simulator, for example the HP35s where one could not only see the full stack, but all (or many - perhaps 100) data memories while code is executing to see the movement of data while the algorithm executes. I've begun this process (in Excel97) and was curious if perhaps this has been done already - or if anyone else out there would have a need for such a piece of code. Certainly, Java would be more universal, but I'm currently more conversant in Excel(VBA). Thoughts and opinions appreciated, Tomcee === Subject: Re: RPN Calculator in Excel or Java? Please take a look at the simulations page of the MoHPC: http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/simulate.htm HTH Raymond tomcee schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Has anyone seen (or perhaps already done) a RPN calculator/simulator > in Excel(VBA) or Java? My particular interest has been picqued by writing code for the HP35s > and wanting to be able to see the data memory as the algorithm was > executing. While there are several simulators(even bit-accurate emulators) out > there for various machines, I was thinking it would be nice to have a > simulator, for example the HP35s where one could not only see the full > stack, but all (or many - perhaps 100) data memories while code is > executing to see the movement of data while the algorithm executes. > I've begun this process (in Excel97) and was curious if perhaps this > has been done already - or if anyone else out there would have a need > for such a piece of code. Certainly, Java would be more universal, > but I'm currently more conversant in Excel(VBA). Thoughts and opinions appreciated, Tomcee > === Subject: Re: RPN Calculator in Excel or Java? Has anyone seen (or perhaps already done) a RPN calculator/simulator > in Excel(VBA) or Java? > My particular interest has been picqued by writing code for the HP35s > and wanting to be able to see the data memory as the algorithm was > executing. > While there are several simulators(even bit-accurate emulators) out > there for various machines, I was thinking it would be nice to have a > simulator, for example the HP35s where one could not only see the full > stack, but all (or many - perhaps 100) data memories while code is > executing to see the movement of data while the algorithm executes. > I've begun this process (in Excel97) and was curious if perhaps this > has been done already - or if anyone else out there would have a need > for such a piece of code. Certainly, Java would be more universal, > but I'm currently more conversant in Excel(VBA). > Thoughts and opinions appreciated, > Tomcee- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Ray: cases. My need here is more driven - not so much by an absolutely accurate model of the machine - but by being able to watch the machine perform while executing steps in a program. I am writing some code for the HP35s to do Matrix operations, and ascertaining that my code is using data memory properly, I need to 'see inside' the machine while the data is being moved around and modified. Checking that a 5x5 or 10x10 matrix has been moved and/or operated on via the HP35s display is a bit tedious. I can see all 100 or so memories simultaneously on a spreadsheet. I've gotten the basic code done for stack and data operations done. Doing the program interpretation is going to be significantly more tedious. TAFYH, TomCee === Subject: Selectin USB or Serail Port in Code Does anyone know how the select the USB or serial port in a program? === Subject: Re: Selectin USB or Serail Port in Code > Does anyone know how the select the USB or serial port in a program? -34 CF (IrDA) -34 SF -78 CF (USB) -34 SF -78 SF (Serial) TW === Subject: UserRPL in XCELL Hello. How can I execute userRPL program inside XCELL spreadsheet program? Damir === Subject: Re: UserRPL in XCELL >Hello. >How can I execute userRPL program inside XCELL spreadsheet program? Damir P.S. On HP 50g. === Subject: Re: UserRPL in XCELL >Hello. >How can I execute userRPL program inside XCELL spreadsheet program? > >Damir P.S. On HP 50g. -or you could try MXeval -powerfull, flexible, does it all (even more than it's built for) A.R.M./Saturn section of : http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire/ ..or download directly from : http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire/download.php?file=mxeval.zip note : uderstanding of RPL and list/matrix object is assumed, Read the manual and have fun !! (few samples included) manjo === Subject: Re: UserRPL in XCELL >>How can I execute userRPL program inside XCELL spreadsheet program? >>Damir >> P.S. On HP 50g. -or you could try MXeval >-powerfull, flexible, does it all >(even more than it's built for) A.R.M./Saturn section of : >http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire/ ..or download directly from : >http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire/download.php?file=mxeval.zip note : >uderstanding of RPL and list/matrix object is assumed, >Read the manual and have fun !! >(few samples included)