8448 ===* Subject: Re: What happens if you erase everything in your HOME directory? > I have a lot of units in my HOME directory and I'm wondering what > they are. Are they just like variables that you insert into graphs? So > if you delete these units, they will still be available in the Right > Shift-> Units section right? I don't want to keep any of my old data > or any other piece of information that I calculated so which files > should I NOT delete? Are there are specific files in your HOME > directory that will keep certain things from functioning or is > everything in your directory just all of your calculation history? I experimented with my 50g and added a lot of programs and ran them. > That put a lot of units in my HOME directory. if you want to get rid > of everything extra and get back to factory condition do a cold > restart. Hold ON-F1-F6 then let go of ON I remember seeing in the manual something that told you want each of the symbols in the HOME directory meant. Like R means real number, The squiggly symbol means units, etc. I can't seem to find it anymore. Does anyone know where it is? === Subject: Re: Very Early Calculator Here is another link to a second EC130 remembrance by a gentleman named Ahrens http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/d-ahrens.html Rich W > http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/nbodley.html Rich Wood === Subject: Re: Very Early Calculator > Here is another link to a second EC130 remembrance > by a gentleman named [Dick] Ahrens > [My Life and Times at Friden] > http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/d-ahrens.html A quote from it: [Chief Friden Electronics Engineer] Bob Ragen called me into his office and read me the riot act for at least fifteen minutes about loose lips, for talking to someone in the Marketing Department -- he did not want any of us ever talking to our own company's Sales or Marketing. Good tip for HP? . === Subject: Re: Very Early Calculator I used a Friden EC-130 rather extensively over a 4 year period (1968 > to 1971) when I was a college student. I thought the 4 deep stack display > was a work of genius. Some years later when I saw the 48SX I thought > FINALLY somebody went back to the roots to the Friden and realized the > benefits of showing a 4 deep stack. I suspect that on earlier hand held LCD calculators it was a matter of the cost of a large LCD and the associated drive electronics as a dot matrix LCD has to have a lot more electronics and driver connections than the earlier multi segment per character LCDs as used on the HP41 and earlier LCD HP calculators. Those connections can also make it more failure prone. On the earlier LED units the display was a power hog and a 4 high version would have required way too much power for portable use. Also LEDs were not cheap per digit. Single line LCD displays were a manufacturing economy. The down side is that the 4 line display on the 48S and 48G series led to a considerably largerr calculator than earlier HP generations, not as easy to carry IMO. Of course now the RPN default on the 50G is a 7 high stack display and my old 48GX, with the Meta Kernel card installed, shows 5 levels. How far should it go? I believe that there have been studies showing that almost any calculation can be handled with a 4 deep stack. Certainly that was my experience. === Subject: HP 35S status? So what is the current story for the HP 35S? I read on this list that it was pulled for a period of time to correct a display defect. It disappeared from Sampson Cables and Amazon. The HP page seems to indicate that it is available but is that up to date? If I purchase one, I would like it to be the updated model but I don't know whether I will get an updated one if I buy now. Anyone know the current status? === Subject: Re: HP 35S status? > So what is the current story for the HP 35S? I read on this list > that it was pulled for a period of time to correct a display > defect. It disappeared from Sampson Cables and Amazon. > The HP page seems to indicate that it is available but > is that up to date? If I purchase one, I would like it > to be the updated model but I don't know whether I > will get an updated one if I buy now. Anyone know > the current status? It's on sale in Germany now. There is a note on the website of a mail order store, saying there were certain problems with units in earlier production runs, e.g. for the British market, while later units, such as those for the German market (of course that's what *they* sell <8)) were perfectly okay. Well, I hope so. 8-) Dieter === Subject: Re: HP 35S status? Just check the related discussion forum threads on www.hpmuseum.org . HTH Raymond David Harrison schrieb im Newsbeitrag So what is the current story for the HP 35S? I read on this list > that it was pulled for a period of time to correct a display > defect. It disappeared from Sampson Cables and Amazon. > The HP page seems to indicate that it is available but > is that up to date? If I purchase one, I would like it > to be the updated model but I don't know whether I > will get an updated one if I buy now. Anyone know > the current status? David S. Harrison === Subject: Re: HP 35S status? > So what is the current story for the HP 35S? I was about to post the same question. Can anyone confirm the actual reason for the temporary halt in distribution? And does anyone know how to tell good from bad? Might have HP issued some kind of message to retailers, asking to return certain units based on serial number? I would imagine HP would have those returned to them, then send out new, proper units. I am satisfied I have waited this long to purchase a 35s (well, 'cause I don't have any money), but I have become impatient and wanting, even after reading this and MoHPC. Pal === Subject: Re: HP 35S status? >So what is the current story for the HP 35S? I read on this list >that it was pulled for a period of time to correct a display >defect. It disappeared from Sampson Cables and Amazon. >The HP page seems to indicate that it is available but >is that up to date? If I purchase one, I would like it >to be the updated model but I don't know whether I >will get an updated one if I buy now. Anyone know >the current status? David S. Harrison > Never buy Version 1.0 :) WalMart also lists HP-35s as available. It has never been on Amazon. A.L. === Subject: Re: Hello. I'm a new hp-50g Owner Let's see, here are just some: - I like the smart filer; you can have subdirectories - Very strong casing and screen cover - Lots of connectivity options - An SD slot for almost unlimited memory - An efficient matrix builder - Built-in equation writer for complex equations - Lots of options for rewriting expressions - Very fast integer calculations (including arbitary precision) And I can keep going on. Here are things I like about the HP over the 89: 89: Casing is not strong and the screen collects dust. HP: Casing is very strong and screen hardly collects dust. 89: Entering matrices is a pain using editor or Home screen. HP: Entering matrices is easy with the matrix editor. 89: You run out of memory fast when installing games, pgrograms, etc. HP: An SD slot takes care of all your memory needs. 89: Slow when calculating 249! and arbitary precision. HP: Very fast when calculating even 400! and arbitary precision. 89: Answers are displayed only in one default format. HP: You can rewrite expressions to your heart's content. 89: You have to dowload extra programs for extra math functions. HP: Lots (but not all) of math functions are already built-in. 89: There is only one operating mode: Alebraic. HP: There are two operating modes: RPN/Algebraic. 89: Entering long expressions is pain when worrying about parentheses. HP: RPN or EQW make long expressions easy to type. 89: You must select lower/upper bound when find roots from a graph. HP: Just place your cursor next to the root and HP tells you the value. 89: You cannot customize the calculator to your preferences. HP: You can customize your calculator to your preferences. That's all I can think of right now. While I'm talking about this, I will mention my ideal calculator (or dream calculator): - Casing like the HP and a screen like the HP. - Screen resolution like the 89 and keys and cursor like the 89. - Key configuration similar to the 89. - Algebraic mode should have same GUI/interface as 89. - RPN mode should be similar to the HP RPN mode. - EQW is present and built-in. - HP matrix editor is built-in. - 89 CAS with HP math and rewriting commands. - Graphing abilities are the same as 89. - Graphing ease-of-use is same as HP (i.e. cursor near = roots). - HP Equation library built-in. - 89 Stats/List Editor built-in. - Other HP applications and TI applications built-in. - An SD card slot and a USB port (see usb8x). - An infrared port for calculator-to-calculator transmission. - A filer easy to use like 89, but features of HP. - Support for arbitary precision. - Support for values from -999E-9999 to 999E9999. That's all I can think of for now. === Subject: HP 35s Impressions I received my HP35s today, ordered from International Calculator in Florida. Visually it is an attractive package somewhat larger and thicker than the 32s/42s series calculators and with a far more readable front panel than many recent so called HP calculators, thank heavens. The metallic blue 6S front panel is the worst thing I have ever seen in this regard, with it's low contrast difference minute print for secondary functions, yuck! The display is a bit larger than the 42s and is definitely higher contrast. Mine appears to be well enough aligned so that it is hard to judge if it is perfect or just a hair tilted. Close enough so that no worry to me. The display cover plastic is definitely not anti glare treated though and can reflect severely. The 42s display is much better in this regard with it's matte finish. I hope that the glare prone cover window is something HP improves. Keys are definitely a throwback to the 41C series and before. Definitely nostalgic as well as functional IMO though such design keys were NOT on the original HP 35. They came in with the HP 65 per photos at the HP Museum site. The manual is about twice as thick as the printed one that comes with the 50C. Something wrong here methinks. Program execution speed is just a tad faster than with the 42s on the Savage benchmark. I put virtually identical stack use only versions of the Savage benchmark program running in both and got a run time of 9 minutes and 23 seconds when it was run on the 35s in RPN mode versus 9 minutes and 38 seconds on the 42s. This is a speed difference of barely 2.5%. I will post the program if anyone is interested. This version gives the best 42s speed results I have seen listed. Programming seems limited with the 26 labels maximum restriction. With the amount of memory available it seems a shame as being able to assign programs meaningful names via a alpha label, such as on the HP 41 series and 42s, would certainly be nice. Some remarks on Bugs: I see the error on the COS 89.999 item people are talking about. It is far enough out so I do not expect it to cause a problem except under unusual circumstances. IMO it should be corrected ASAP though. I have seen surprise expressed regarding a bug such as this. If my old PPC membership and memory, as well as bulletin copies, can be relied on then I do not think that there has been any new HP calculator that did not have some bugs or undocumented behavior from the original HP 35 through the new 35s. It is traditional folks and definitely includes the 41C. Some of it's bugs allowed inner access and aided early explorers of the 41C architecture, giving us 41C Synthetic Programming capabilities and open architecture on later high end HP calculators such as the 48 series. I saw a posting somewhere about HP's calculators no longer being sent to serious users for beta testing. If correct then this is a dumb move on their part. As I recall Corvallis division always had some of the highest technical skill PPC members involved in calculator testing prior to release and I believe they all kept to their confidentiality agreements. They still did not catch all of the bugs though. Overall I consider the 35s to be an attractive package. Probably over priced when compared to algebraic scientific calculators from other manufacturers but HP calculators always tended to cost a premium amount compared to the other brands. Rich W === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions > The [HP35s] display cover plastic is definitely not > anti-glare treated though, and can reflect severely. > The 42s display is much better in this regard with its matte finish. First generation of 42S had extra plastic (polarizer?) flush with front, complete with glare, and less readable. Later 42S had recessed display, much clearer and less glare, as described. Other Pioneer models, showing the difference in display: http://www.hpmuseum.org/17b.jpg (Plastic window above LCD) http://www.hpmuseum.org/27s.jpg (Recessed bare LCD - glass?) -- Looking for a gravity boost to get back home... === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions >I received my HP35s today, ordered from International Calculator in > Florida. Visually it is an attractive package somewhat larger and thicker than > the 32s/42s series calculators and with a far more readable front > panel than many recent so called HP calculators, thank heavens. The > metallic blue 6S front panel is the worst thing I have ever seen in > this regard, with it's low contrast difference minute print for > secondary functions, yuck! The display is a bit larger than the 42s and is definitely higher > contrast. Mine appears to be well enough aligned so that it is hard > to judge if it is perfect or just a hair tilted. Close enough so that > no worry to me. The display cover plastic is definitely not anti > glare treated though and can reflect severely. The 42s display is > much better in this regard with it's matte finish. I hope that the > glare prone cover window is something HP improves. Keys are definitely a throwback to the 41C series and before. > Definitely nostalgic as well as functional IMO though such design keys > were NOT on the original HP 35. They came in with the HP 65 per > photos at the HP Museum site. The manual is about twice as thick as the printed one that comes with > the 50C. Something wrong here methinks. Program execution speed is just a tad faster than with the 42s on the > Savage benchmark. I put virtually identical stack use only versions > of the Savage benchmark program running in both and got a run time of > 9 minutes and 23 seconds when it was run on the 35s in RPN mode versus > 9 minutes and 38 seconds on the 42s. This is a speed difference of > barely 2.5%. I will post the program if anyone is interested. This > version gives the best 42s speed results I have seen listed. Programming seems limited with the 26 labels maximum restriction. > With the amount of memory available it seems a shame as being able to > assign programs meaningful names via a alpha label, such as on the HP > 41 series and 42s, would certainly be nice. Some remarks on Bugs: I see the error on the COS 89.999 item people are talking about. It > is far enough out so I do not expect it to cause a problem except > under unusual circumstances. IMO it should be corrected ASAP though. I have seen surprise expressed regarding a bug such as this. If my > old PPC membership and memory, as well as bulletin copies, can be > relied on then I do not think that there has been any new HP > calculator that did not have some bugs or undocumented behavior from > the original HP 35 through the new 35s. It is traditional folks and > definitely includes the 41C. Some of it's bugs allowed inner access > and aided early explorers of the 41C architecture, giving us 41C > Synthetic Programming capabilities and open architecture on later > high end HP calculators such as the 48 series. I saw a posting somewhere about HP's calculators no longer being sent > to serious users for beta testing. If correct then this is a dumb > move on their part. As I recall Corvallis division always had some of > the highest technical skill PPC members involved in calculator testing > prior to release and I believe they all kept to their confidentiality > agreements. They still did not catch all of the bugs though. Overall I consider the 35s to be an attractive package. Probably over > priced when compared to algebraic scientific calculators from other > manufacturers but HP calculators always tended to cost a premium > amount compared to the other brands. Rich W > Rich, Nice analysis. I like my 35s, too, and am grateful that HP made the effort to release it. Having the ability to buy a new and (relatively) inexpensive RPN calculator is a good thing. One editorial note. Here's an easy way to remember when to use it's or its: it's = it is or it has its = [everything else] Bob === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions I received my HP35s today, ordered from International Calculator in > Florida. > Visually it is an attractive package somewhat larger and thicker than > the 32s/42s series calculators and with a far more readable front > panel than many recent so called HP calculators, thank heavens. The > metallic blue 6S front panel is the worst thing I have ever seen in > this regard, with it's low contrast difference minute print for > secondary functions, yuck! > The display is a bit larger than the 42s and is definitely higher > contrast. Mine appears to be well enough aligned so that it is hard > to judge if it is perfect or just a hair tilted. Close enough so that > no worry to me. The display cover plastic is definitely not anti > glare treated though and can reflect severely. The 42s display is > much better in this regard with it's matte finish. I hope that the > glare prone cover window is something HP improves. > Keys are definitely a throwback to the 41C series and before. > Definitely nostalgic as well as functional IMO though such design keys > were NOT on the original HP 35. They came in with the HP 65 per > photos at the HP Museum site. > The manual is about twice as thick as the printed one that comes with > the 50C. Something wrong here methinks. > Program execution speed is just a tad faster than with the 42s on the > Savage benchmark. I put virtually identical stack use only versions > of the Savage benchmark program running in both and got a run time of > 9 minutes and 23 seconds when it was run on the 35s in RPN mode versus > 9 minutes and 38 seconds on the 42s. This is a speed difference of > barely 2.5%. I will post the program if anyone is interested. This > version gives the best 42s speed results I have seen listed. > Programming seems limited with the 26 labels maximum restriction. > With the amount of memory available it seems a shame as being able to > assign programs meaningful names via a alpha label, such as on the HP > 41 series and 42s, would certainly be nice. > Some remarks on Bugs: > I see the error on the COS 89.999 item people are talking about. It > is far enough out so I do not expect it to cause a problem except > under unusual circumstances. IMO it should be corrected ASAP though. > I have seen surprise expressed regarding a bug such as this. If my > old PPC membership and memory, as well as bulletin copies, can be > relied on then I do not think that there has been any new HP > calculator that did not have some bugs or undocumented behavior from > the original HP 35 through the new 35s. It is traditional folks and > definitely includes the 41C. Some of it's bugs allowed inner access > and aided early explorers of the 41C architecture, giving us 41C > Synthetic Programming capabilities and open architecture on later > high end HP calculators such as the 48 series. > I saw a posting somewhere about HP's calculators no longer being sent > to serious users for beta testing. If correct then this is a dumb > move on their part. As I recall Corvallis division always had some of > the highest technical skill PPC members involved in calculator testing > prior to release and I believe they all kept to their confidentiality > agreements. They still did not catch all of the bugs though. > Overall I consider the 35s to be an attractive package. Probably over > priced when compared to algebraic scientific calculators from other > manufacturers but HP calculators always tended to cost a premium > amount compared to the other brands. > Rich W Rich, Nice analysis. I like my 35s, too, and am grateful that HP made the effort > to release it. Having the ability to buy a new and (relatively) inexpensive > RPN calculator is a good thing. One editorial note. Here's an easy way to remember when to use it's or > its: it's = it is or it has > its = [everything else] Bob Good analysis. I picked one up when they first went on sale and have not been disappointed. Better use of all that ram would have been nice. Variable, program labels and internal number labels sure would be nice. I had become accustomed somewhat to the 33S keyboard. Then I spent two weeks using/learning the 35S. I went back to the 33S to do a program- speed comparison between the two. My eyes started to water and I felt dizzy trying to read the 33S keyboard. The real 50G manuals are on the CD and the AUR is on the web. The book that was packaged with the 50G is a halfway attempt at a lets get started booklet. === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions Rich, > Nice analysis. I like my 35s, too, and am grateful that HP made the effort > to release it. Having the ability to buy a new and (relatively) inexpensive > RPN calculator is a good thing. > One editorial note. Here's an easy way to remember when to use it's or > its: > it's = it is or it has > its = [everything else] > Bob Good analysis. I picked one up when they first went on sale and have > not been disappointed. Better use of all that ram would have been > nice. Variable, program labels and internal number labels sure would > be nice. I had become accustomed somewhat to the 33S keyboard. Then I spent two > weeks using/learning the 35S. I went back to the 33S to do a program- > speed comparison between the two. My eyes started to water and I felt > dizzy trying to read the 33S keyboard. The real 50G manuals are on the CD and the AUR is on the web. The book > that was packaged with the 50G is a halfway attempt at a lets get > started booklet.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I agree that is where the 50G manuals are but what ships as a manual is totally inadequate. The additional manuals should be available as printed manuals from HP at reasonable prices IMO. After all if you have to be in front of the computer to have the manuals available for programming then why not use the computer with a calculator program, Mathcad or a spreadsheet and ditch the calculator? I have the ring binder 48G Advanced User manual thank heavens and would love to see the main CD manual and AUR made available as spiral bound lay flat manuals. With about 1540 pages in the two CD manuals the cost of printing them out for the individual is ridiculous. The program structure and limitations on the 35s seem to be derived available memory on the 35s these limitations make no sense though. Rich Wood === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions I agree that is where the 50G manuals are but what ships as a manual >is totally inadequate. > Much below ANYTHING that woudl be acceptable. >The additional manuals should be available as printed manuals from HP >at reasonable prices IMO. Where?... Kinko charegs 16 cents per double sided page. Printing manuals would cost more than calculator. >After all if you have to be in front of the >computer to have the manuals available for programming then why not >use the computer with a calculator program, Mathcad or a spreadsheet >and ditch the calculator? Exactly. Thsi is stupidity. A.L. === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions >I agree that is where the 50G manuals are but what ships as a manual >is totally inadequate. Much below ANYTHING that woudl be acceptable. >The additional manuals should be available as printed manuals from HP >at reasonable prices IMO. Where?... Kinko charegs 16 cents per double sided page. Printing > manuals would cost more than calculator.. A.L. A.L. That is why I specified from HP as commercial printing in quantity can be done for MUCH lower cost per page than you or I going to Kinkos to get it done. I would estimate wholesale cost to HP as in the $10 to $15 range maximum for both books, possibly less. I fortunately have a laser printer so as soon as I get a new cartridge for it I will be printing out both manuals for the 50G. I still figure my cost will be in the $50 range to do it. I hate to think of what it would cost to feed a inkjet printer to do the job. Rich W === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions That is why I specified from HP as commercial printing in quantity >can be done for MUCH lower cost per page than you or I going to Kinkos >to get it done. I would estimate wholesale cost to HP as in the $10 >to $15 range maximum for both books, possibly less. I fortunately have a laser printer so as soon as I get a new cartridge >for it I will be printing out both manuals for the 50G. I still >figure my cost will be in the $50 range to do it. I have laser printer, too. But my cost is not that much lower than Kinko - cartridge cost $120 and is for 2500 pages what gives 5c per page. Plus paper, about 2 c per page... Moreover, my printer prints single sided; 800 page manual would be 3 inch thick. Then I should cut it to proper size and bind - probably not in one volume, but in 3 or 4 volumes. Kinko charges about $10 for binding, what woud add $30 - $40. Cutting is also not free... === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions > On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:32:13 -0700, richwood >That is why I specified from HP as commercial printing in quantity >can be done for MUCH lower cost per page than you or I going to Kinkos >to get it done. I would estimate wholesale cost to HP as in the $10 >to $15 range maximum for both books, possibly less. > >I fortunately have a laser printer so as soon as I get a new cartridge >for it I will be printing out both manuals for the 50G. I still >figure my cost will be in the $50 range to do it. I have laser printer, too. But my cost is not that much lower than > Kinko - cartridge cost $120 and is for 2500 pages what gives 5c per > page. Plus paper, about 2 c per page... Moreover, my printer prints > single sided; 800 page manual would be 3 inch thick. Then I should cut > it to proper size and bind - probably not in one volume, but in 3 or 4 > volumes. Kinko charges about $10 for binding, what woud add $30 - $40. > Cutting is also not free... A.L. Just bought an HP With the rebate it'll end up costing me about $220 plus shipping. comes with a 3,000 print cart from newegg for about $0.02 per 5% page. What's more it comes with an auto duplex system I have printed the 50G user manual and the 48G AUR with 2 pages printed on each face. All told it cost about 5-6¢ per four manual pages, materials inclusive. I was lucky that i needed a new printer right now so I went with a duplexing printer. I'll have one of the office giants three-hole punch the manuals and put them in binders. All told they sould cost around $15 or so. === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions I was lucky that i needed a new printer right now so I went with a >duplexing printer. I'll have one of the office giants three-hole punch >the manuals and put them in binders. All told they sould cost around $15 >or so. Yes, good, but this is not the issue of having or not having printer. This is the issue of principles. Piece of equipment that is complex enough to require manual to operate, SHOULD COME WITH ADEQUATE PRINTED MANUAL. Yes, this could be optional, but manual should be available in the same store when I purchased the calculator. A.L. === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions > >I was lucky that i needed a new printer right now so I went with a >duplexing printer. I'll have one of the office giants three-hole punch >the manuals and put them in binders. All told they sould cost around $15 >or so. Yes, good, but this is not the issue of having or not having printer. > This is the issue of principles. Piece of equipment that is complex > enough to require manual to operate, SHOULD COME WITH ADEQUATE PRINTED > MANUAL. Yes, this could be optional, but manual should be available in > the same store when I purchased the calculator. A.L. I wasn't disagreeing with you, in fact I believe you are correct. There is no way a single user could approach the economy of scale of a run of even a few thousand books. And commercially printed manuals should be available at least as an option. But not printing, and especially not including them with the device, saves HP money. It also allows for more HP calculators to be displayed in the same space on the sales floor. While that may not rise to the level of even a secondary consideration it is a consideration for any retailer, be they brick or online stores. I just purchased a 50G and have printed the 50G UG and 48G AUR so I can learn to program it. No, I was certainly unhappy that I had to print it rather than buying it. No I don't think I really saved any money. Yes, at least the 49G+ manual should have been available for purchase. No I don't see it happening. Ultimately it is a matter of economics. It's the flashiest tool and the lowest price that wins, and if leaving out the more complete manual means HP can compete more equally with TI then that's just what they will do. -- === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions But not printing, and especially not including them with the device, >saves HP money. I don't care about HP saving money, HP is fro me, not reverse. Thsi is the problem of modern world (well, maybe not teh WHOLE world) that corporate greed is teh main driving force. Let HP saves less money, and let CEO lives in ONLY 20 million house instead of 50 million. > It also allows for more HP calculators to be displayed >in the same space on the sales floor. Hahahahahaha.... WHAT DISPLAY FLOOR? Where you have seen HP calculator on display, and display so large that there is no room for manuals?... yes, theer is no room for displaying HP calculators, because all room is occupied by TI-xx if something is a , don't tray to call this perfume. It will stink anyway. Like . A.L. === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions > I wasn't disagreeing with you, in fact I believe you are correct. There > is no way a single user could approach the economy of scale of a run of > even a few thousand books. And commercially printed manuals should be > available at least as an option. But not printing, and especially not including them with the device, > saves HP money. It also allows for more HP calculators to be displayed > in the same space on the sales floor. While that may not rise to the > level of even a secondary consideration it is a consideration for any > retailer, be they brick or online stores. I just purchased a 50G and have printed the 50G UG and 48G AUR so I can > learn to program it. No, I was certainly unhappy that I had to print it > rather than buying it. No I don't think I really saved any money. Yes, > at least the 49G+ manual should have been available for purchase. No I > don't see it happening. Ultimately it is a matter of economics. It's the > flashiest tool and the lowest price that wins, and if leaving out the > more complete manual means HP can compete more equally with TI then > that's just what they will do. > -- > macaddicted fides quaerens intellectum- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I do not object to their not including the manuals with the unit so much as they do not even offer printed versions separately. To me the calculator packaging should include an order form or a web address where printed versions of the manuals can be obtained at not too much above HP's production and handling costs. Providing one PDF on CD and making one available on the HP web site, w/ o even mentioniong it may be needed, is to me not acceptable. IMO it is also a very poor marketing decision. I think the word I am looking for is estupido! Rich W === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:32:06 -0700, richwood Providing one PDF on CD and making one available on the HP web site, w/ >o even mentioniong it may be needed, is to me not acceptable. IMO it >is also a very poor marketing decision. I think the word I am looking >for is estupido! > Agree. How you can program without programming manual, and why this manual is not on CD?... A.L. === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions > How you can program [HP50G] without programming manual, > and why this manual is not on CD?... Even HP48G did not come with complete AUR needed for programming (could be ordered in print; Adobe PDF format did not even then exist) Could such big, fat book (even if on CD) actually scare buyer away? How come MS Windows, which fills up my whole computer, came with no programming manual? How they expect me to program it? Why not a VBscript manual, one of its most common programming languages? Not even on my CD? The thing below says it comes with CD with operating manual [not printed?] http://education.ti.com/educationportal/sites/US/productDetail/us_ti89ti.htm l The Purchase link at site above suggests Amazon; following the Amazon link shows product under Kitchen & Dining! http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000789KME/ Does it come with recipes, or can you stir soup with it? (maybe it draws graph of optimum path of spoon?) -- === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions > Nice analysis. I like my 35s, too, and am grateful that HP made the effort > to release it. Having the ability to buy a new and (relatively) inexpensive > RPN calculator is a good thing. > One editorial note. Here's an easy way to remember when to use it's or > its: > it's = it is or it has > its = [everything else] > Bob > Good analysis. I picked one up when they first went on sale and have > not been disappointed. Better use of all that ram would have been > nice. Variable, program labels and internal number labels sure would > be nice. > I had become accustomed somewhat to the 33S keyboard. Then I spent two > weeks using/learning the 35S. I went back to the 33S to do a program- > speed comparison between the two. My eyes started to water and I felt > dizzy trying to read the 33S keyboard. > The real 50G manuals are on the CD and the AUR is on the web. The book > that was packaged with the 50G is a halfway attempt at a lets get > started booklet.- Hide quoted text - > - Show quoted text - I agree that is where the 50G manuals are but what ships as a manual > is totally inadequate. The additional manuals should be available as printed manuals from HP > at reasonable prices IMO. After all if you have to be in front of the > computer to have the manuals available for programming then why not > use the computer with a calculator program, Mathcad or a spreadsheet > and ditch the calculator? I have the ring binder 48G Advanced User manual thank heavens and > would love to see the main CD manual and AUR made available as spiral > bound lay flat manuals. With about 1540 pages in the two CD manuals > the cost of printing them out for the individual is ridiculous. The program structure and limitations on the 35s seem to be derived > available memory on the 35s these limitations make no sense though. Rich Wood For me HP35s is the first *HP* calculator after the HP48. I can live with its bugs, they are not critical. My wish list consists of 2 points. 1. Add the R<->P conversions (software) 2. Change that display with a matte one (hardware) Comparing HP35s to HP41/42 doesn't make sense... cheers, reth === Subject: Re: HP 35s Impressions Rich, > Nice analysis. I like my 35s, too, and am grateful that HP made the effort > to release it. Having the ability to buy a new and (relatively) inexpensive > RPN calculator is a good thing. > One editorial note. Here's an easy way to remember when to use it's or > its: > it's = it is or it has > its = [everything else] > Bob > Good analysis. I picked one up when they first went on sale and have > not been disappointed. Better use of all that ram would have been > nice. Variable, program labels and internal number labels sure would > be nice. > I had become accustomed somewhat to the 33S keyboard. Then I spent two > weeks using/learning the 35S. I went back to the 33S to do a program- > speed comparison between the two. My eyes started to water and I felt > dizzy trying to read the 33S keyboard. > The real 50G manuals are on the CD and the AUR is on the web. The book > that was packaged with the 50G is a halfway attempt at a lets get > started booklet.- Hide quoted text - > - Show quoted text - > I agree that is where the 50G manuals are but what ships as a manual > is totally inadequate. > The additional manuals should be available as printed manuals from HP > at reasonable prices IMO. After all if you have to be in front of the > computer to have the manuals available for programming then why not > use the computer with a calculator program, Mathcad or a spreadsheet > and ditch the calculator? > I have the ring binder 48G Advanced User manual thank heavens and > would love to see the main CD manual and AUR made available as spiral > bound lay flat manuals. With about 1540 pages in the two CD manuals > the cost of printing them out for the individual is ridiculous. > The program structure and limitations on the 35s seem to be derived > available memory on the 35s these limitations make no sense though. > Rich Wood For me HP35s is the first *HP* calculator after the HP48. I can live > with its bugs, they are not critical. My wish list consists of 2 > points. > 1. Add the R<->P conversions (software) > 2. Change that display with a matte one (hardware) Comparing HP35s to HP41/42 doesn't make sense... > cheers, > reth- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - reth; I agree except that my last two 42s units were bought for similar prices to what the 35s lists for, $69 each. These were apparently post normal production service replacement units that a calculator store in Corvallis obtained a quantity of somehow. The 35s has more memory and similar speed, as well as close to similar size, so in those respects it is comparable. With just a change of firmware it could be directly comparable. Rich W === Subject: Re: HP-17BII+ RPN Mode variable length stack bug or implementation > I have a new HP-17BII+ calculator that I am learning about. I also > have older calculators including in particular a 1983 HP 12c, a > HP-15c, HP-25c, and others. Part of the below is what I read in the > manual ,part is what I observed, and part is what I inferred. Does anyone know where I can find more or have more information on > whether the RPN stack in fact works like the below and maybe why? I have read on a couple of collection sites that it is a Bug ... but, > I am wondering if in fact this was intentional since it has not been > fixed ( i.e., maybe it is supposed to be like a dynamic stack in > programming)? THE HP 17BII+ RPN Mode Stack > -------------------------------------------- > In he HP 17BII+ RPN mode ... initially only the permanent x register > exists. Then as data is entered onto the stack or consumed from the > stack, the stack size varies. The size varies over a range from 1 to > 4 levels deep depending upon the amounts of data entered and > consumed. Therefore, at most, the HP 17BII+ stack is composed of one permanent X > register and three non-permanent registers labeled y,z, and t: > X receives the calculator line, Status:permanent memory, present > always, head of the dynamic stack > Y accumulator, Status: non-permanent, created and destroyed as > needed > Z temporary, Status: non-permanent, created and destroyed as needed > T top, Status: non-permanent, created and destroyed as needed > Pressing [SHIFT], [CLR DATA] destroys the y, z, and t registers > resetting the calculator to its initial state of having an x register > only. The above is unlike my HP 12c, HP-15c, HP-25c, and other HP RPN / RPL > calculators. {fdw} Fri Aug 17 11:18:14 2007 Re: HP-17BII+ RPN Mode variable length stack Views To me this is the most valuable part of this newsgroup. You can look at a subject through other eyes and get a different view than the eyes you are looking through. I hope this doesn't ever go away. For me, the below posts made sense and satisfied my curiousity and gave me different ways to think about my collection: ............. [*] The New HP at work in the 21st Century :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ (1) the HP17BII IS indeed ... a RPL calculator (2) however the HP17BII+ was completly recreated in C and is not a RPL calculator behind and has permanetly allocated X, Y, Z and T registers. [*] A Generalized Way Of Looking At HP RPN/RPL Across Models/Years ------------------------------------------------------------- While depth < 4 [act like hp48/49/50] While depth == 4 [act like all old fixed stack calcs] Once depth == 4, it remains 4 until cleared. Stack rolling is like DEPTH ROLL[D] ............. I do think the above would make it harder for new users and to have new users for RPN/RPL. But, that is an HP problem that I hope they want to solve. I was really curious as to whether this was a feature from the new HP ... I liked the old one better but, we make do with what we have. consideration of this matter. Frank === Subject: Re: HP-17BII+ RPN Mode variable length stack bug or implementation >> I have an 17BII (not the plus) but as far as I can tell the stack works >> just as an ordinary old-fashioned four-level stack. I still have a >> manual from a 17BII+ which broke, and this manual is full of obviously >> non-sensical mistakes (German translated from English by a Chinese). I >> would suspect that this is either plain wrong or at least a very quirky >> way of describing the functioning of the stack. >> I have a new HP-17BII+ calculator that I am learning about. I also >> have older calculators including in particular a 1983 HP 12c, a >> HP-15c, HP-25c, and others. Part of the below is what I read in the >> manual ,part is what I observed, and part is what I inferred. >> Does anyone know where I can find more or have more information on >> whether the RPN stack in fact works like the below and maybe why? >> I have read on a couple of collection sites that it is a Bug ... but, >> I am wondering if in fact this was intentional since it has not been >> fixed ( i.e., maybe it is supposed to be like a dynamic stack in >> programming)? >> THE HP 17BII+ RPN Mode Stack >> -------------------------------------------- >> In he HP 17BII+ RPN mode ... initially only the permanent x register >> exists. Then as data is entered onto the stack or consumed from the >> stack, the stack size varies. The size varies over a range from 1 to >> 4 levels deep depending upon the amounts of data entered and >> consumed. >> Therefore, at most, the HP 17BII+ stack is composed of one permanent X >> register and three non-permanent registers labeled y,z, and t: >> X receives the calculator line, Status:permanent memory, present >> always, head of the dynamic stack >> Y accumulator, Status: non-permanent, created and destroyed as >> needed >> Z temporary, Status: non-permanent, created and destroyed as needed >> T top, Status: non-permanent, created and destroyed as needed >> Pressing [SHIFT], [CLR DATA] destroys the y, z, and t registers >> resetting the calculator to its initial state of having an x register >> only. >> The above is unlike my HP 12c, HP-15c, HP-25c, and other HP RPN / RPL >> calculators. >> {fdw} > Actually, scratch my RPL comment ... it is like RPL somewhat but, the > stack can only grow to 4 levels not to all of memory. {Fdw} Christoph: > is changes RPN operations ... it is something I noticed right away. > If you take the time to do the below and view something different > then > let me know. Also, let me say that I ran out of time to clean all of > the > language up so if you can look past that I neglected to say ... a little sleepy last night that I now have both > models: (1) a 1995, Singapore, HP-17BII and (2) a new HP-17BII+. I > also > admit that I have had and used the HP-12c since it was new in 1983. > The > following is how I first noticed a difference. On the 1983 HP 12c an RPN only calculator I observed the following: > (1) [f] [REG] resets the x,y,t,z registers to zero. > (2) Rolling the stack with [R Down Arrow] after preforming (1) above > appears to the viewer to move through the cleared stack in > sequential order. Whether it does or not, I don't know. > (3) Performing step (1) and then performing a keystroke hitting the > number 1 puts the digits 1. in the x register. Rolling the > stack > with [R Down Arrow] 4 times appears to move me through the stack > ending with a 1.00 as expected. > (4) Performing a keystroke hitting the number 2 puts the 2. digit in > the x register and moves the digits 1.00 to the y register. > Rolling the > stack with [R Down Arrow] 4 times appears to move me through the > stack. > I see the following sequence in order: 2. 1.00 0.00 0.00 2.00. > The point is > here the viewer sees the x,y,z, and t or at least appears to > (i.e., what > else would the roll down keystroke be for?). Now for the HP-17BII and for the HP-17BII + change steps 1 through 4 > to conform > to the calculators. I would have expected before having these that > test on both > would have repeated exactly my experience with the HP-12c and others. On the HP 17BII and the HP 17BII+ perform the following: > (1) HP 17BII: [gold shift] [Clear Data] / HP 17BII+: [gold shift] [CLR > DATA] > (2) Rolling the stack with [gold shift] [R Down Arrow] four times > after preforming > step (1) above appears to the viewer to move through the > cleared stack in > sequential order. Whether it does or not, we don't know. > (3) Performing step (1) and then performing a keystroke hitting the > number 1 puts the digit 1 on the calculator line. Rolling the > stack with [gold shift] > [R Down Arrow] 4 times appears to enter the digit 1 into the x > register > and does not appear to move me through the stack. All I see is 1 > 1.00 1.00 > 1.00 1.00 when I might expect to see 1. 0.00 0.00 0.00 1.00 > Further, when I > perform an [x<->y] exchange I view a zero from the y register but, > that roll down > HP-17BII+ > implementation that rolling through the stack does not occur ... > all one really sees > is the data in the x register viewed over and over. > (4) Next beginning with 1.00 in the x register I perform a keystroke > placing the > number 2 puts on the calculator line. Rolling the stack > with [R Down Arrow] 4 times appears to enter the digit 2.00 > into the x register > and moves the digit 1 to the y register. Rolling the stack > with [R Down Arrow] 4 times appears to enter the digits 2.00 > into the x register > and moves the digits 1.00 into the y register. Rolling the stack > does not appear to > move me through a complete stack on moves me through the x and y > registers. All I > see is 2 1.00 2.00 1.00 2.00 when I expect to see 2. 1.00 0.00 > 0.00 2.00. So > at best here we are only rolling the x and y registers and are > not getting a > view of the y and t registers ... if they even exist! Further, when I perform an [x<->y] exchange I view the digit 1 > from the y register. > So one might infer that for the HP-17BII/HP-17BII+ implementation > that rolling through > a complete stack does not occur ... all you really see is the > data in the x register > and y register viewed over and over (i.e, the first two elements > of a dynamic stack?). So, at least on my equipment, the HP-12c and the HP-17BII/HP-17BII+ > perform differently > when going through the steps above. I am not sure that plain wrong > or quirky would > apply here ... but might say that they do test different than say > the HP-12c. The creation/destruction mechanism described in the > first post was a guess only ... I would imagine only the firmware > developers know for sure. I was really curious as to whether > this was a feature from the new HP ... I liked the old one better > but, we make do with > what we have. Frank > You are indeed right, I reproduce the same behaviour. I was a little misled by the fact that once you have entered four numbers into the stack, it does not shrink any more until you do an explicit Clear Data (at least as I experienced, being careful now! - as a lazy bum I normally do not explicitely clear the stack, so it appeared to be a normal four level stack). One your last note, at first this looks strange, but it does not seem to make much difference (and stupid me really did not notice until now). Christoph === Subject: Re: HHC2007 HP Handhelds Conf News Update - New Video To Be Premiered > and the first color scan > Journal Magazine, which featured our buddies Bill Wickes, Henry Horn, It's an entertaining read - shame about the howler in the first column. :-) -- Bruce Horrocks Surrey England (bruce at scorecrow dot com) > 3 or 4 sources for new 512K and 1 Meg HP 41GX compatible cards in the > first two pages of Google listings. They are not shown on the TDS web > site but according to a TDS dealer I talked to the cards are still > available to dealers from Tripod Data Systems. Interestingly enough the prices for new cards from dealers is less > than some prices on ebay for used cards of unknown history. New > prices seem to be in the $150 to $199 range for the 512K card and $249 > to $299 for the 1 Meg version. BTW if anyone in the U.S. has a extra 128K card please let me know off > group what you would want for it. Rich W An excellent buy on 512K cards for the 48GX is currently listed by SMi at the following link. I have no familiarity wih their cards but they are offering the 512K card for $100. http://smistore.stores.yahoo.net/hpac.html It looks like they are having a sale on all remaining 48GX accessories they list. Rich W > 3 or 4 sources for new 512K and 1 Meg HP 41GX compatible cards in the > first two pages of Google listings. They are not shown on the TDS web > site but according to a TDS dealer I talked to the cards are still > available to dealers from Tripod Data Systems. Interestingly enough the prices for new cards from dealers is less > than some prices on ebay for used cards of unknown history. New > prices seem to be in the $150 to $199 range for the 512K card and $249 > to $299 for the 1 Meg version. BTW if anyone in the U.S. has a extra 128K card please let me know off > group what you would want for it. Rich W I have 1 HP48G+ last time..but it's broken. I want to buy HP48GX. Where can i buy it. t.q. > 3 or 4 sources for new 512K and 1 Meg HP 41GX compatible cards in the > first two pages of Google listings. They are not shown on the TDS web > site but according to a TDS dealer I talked to the cards are still > available to dealers from Tripod Data Systems. > Interestingly enough the prices for new cards from dealers is less > than some prices on ebay for used cards of unknown history. New > prices seem to be in the $150 to $199 range for the 512K card and $249 > to $299 for the 1 Meg version. > BTW if anyone in the U.S. has a extra 128K card please let me know off > group what you would want for it. > Rich W I have 1 HP48G+ last time..but it's broken. I want to buy HP48GX. > Where can i buy it. > t.q. Take a look at the classifieds at the HP Museum. They frequently appear availlable there. Also there are always ones listed on Ebay though the GX units bring a high premium compared to the G units. Here is a link to the museum classifieds. http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/adforum.cgi Another possibility is repair for your unit. Here is a link to a a HP calculator repair service for most models including 48 series units. http://www.fixthatcalc.com/ Rich Wood === Subject: Calculator defined I just returned from my vacation with new thoughts, not entirely of topic, here goes: i mean... forget C, forget Pascal... what if HP50 would have an OS which would offer: -Python environment (for power users i'm sure there are people among you which understand what i'm talking about) powerfull language (high code reusability, modules, etc...) (for power users like sysRPL or Saturn assembly at this time) -LOGO for beginners (computer beginners and quick'n dirty routines :-) immagine simple programming language easy and simple enough for everybody to learn yet helping new programmers to understand basic principles and way of thinking while resolving various problems -Saturn emulator (with a bit better emulation, more accurate graphics, keyboard and sound emulation) of course to keep the gigant library of programs, codes, games etc... from the pas working in the future but (sadly) is expected to extinct in the future At power-up you could choose the default envronment, each environment, of course, would have command to escape to any of the available environments, all environments featuring the ability to run native ARM programs, routines, modules or system calls. Such a device, i think, would be worth twice it's current price, with no modification in hardware at all also... with additinal (learning) software similar and beyond Expander and TInspire it would penetrate the schools (right from elementary) and stay usefull to it's owner for entire life. It would literally establish a world standard of pocket calculator once and for all.. what would that be worth for you ? manjo (my finishing thought: if i only had so much time... :-) === Subject: Re: Calculator defined You are wishing a lot, but if you are willing to 'jump in' and create such a beast, I'll create the basic development enviroment. What I have in mind is basically a humbled-down version of your dream machine: 1) Hot-swapper program that can save your entire calculator to SD (all saturn calculator, like snapshots). This is similar to what you want. 2) New environment based on LUA, which is better than Python for this application because: a) It's ultralight b) It's already running well in the calculator (hplua) c) It's stack-based, very easy to incorporate in a new RPN calculator! d) It has existing libraries, including an interface with decNumber for high precision math. I could easily put together a hot-swapper to achieve 1), and for 2) all we need is to extend a little the current implementation of hplua and create a nice stack interface, not a big deal really. Is not your dream machine but could get pretty close to it, and this one is 60% done before we even started. All we need is to get the right people together... Anyone interested? Claudio PS: > i mean... forget C, forget Pascal... No! don't forget C... hpgcc will be back very soon! > I just returned from my vacation with new thoughts, not entirely of topic, > here goes: what if HP50 would have an OS which would offer: -Python environment (for power users i'm sure there are people among you > which understand what i'm talking about) > powerfull language (high code reusability, modules, etc...) > (for power users like sysRPL or Saturn assembly at this time) -LOGO for beginners (computer beginners and quick'n dirty routines :-) > immagine simple programming language easy and simple enough for everybody to > learn yet > helping new programmers to understand basic principles and way of thinking > while resolving various problems -Saturn emulator (with a bit better emulation, more accurate graphics, > keyboard and sound emulation) > of course to keep the gigant library of programs, codes, games etc... from > the pas working in the future > but (sadly) is expected to extinct in the future At power-up you could choose the default envronment, each environment, of > course, would have command to escape to > any of the available environments, all environments featuring the ability to > run native ARM programs, routines, modules or system calls. Such a device, i think, would be worth twice it's current price, with no > modification in hardware at all > also... with additinal (learning) software similar and beyond Expander and > TInspire it would penetrate the schools (right from elementary) > and stay usefull to it's owner for entire life. > It would literally establish a world standard of pocket calculator once and > for all.. what would that be worth for you ? manjo > (my finishing thought: if i only had so much time... :-) === Subject: Re: Calculator defined > Hot-swapper program that can save your entire calculator to SD > (or another saved Saturn calculator, like snapshots). Your hot swapper would be more general, but don't entirely forget ARCHIVE/RESTORE, of the current, limited, built-in environment (small programs can also manage libraries in ports 0 and 1, up to 256K more in 49G or 128K more in 49G+/50G/etc.) -- Why didn't Clarke and Kubrick pick me? Is size all they care about? === Subject: Re: Calculator defined > 1) Hot-swapper program that can save your entire calculator to SD (all > saturn calculator, like snapshots). This is similar to what you want. > 2) New environment based on LUA, which is better than Python for this > application because: > a) It's ultralight > b) It's already running well in the calculator (hplua) > c) It's stack-based, very easy to incorporate in a new RPN > calculator! > d) It has existing libraries, including an interface with decNumber > for high precision math. I could easily put together a hot-swapper to achieve 1), and for 2) > all we need is to extend a little the current implementation of hplua > and create a nice stack interface, not a big deal really. > Is not your dream machine but could get pretty close to it, and this > one is 60% done before we even started. All we need is to get the > right people together... No! don't forget C... hpgcc will be back very soon! NO... DO NOT forget C -it was just a figure of speach, just an introduction for what i was about to say :-) again... nice ideas from you Claudio (i would not dare to expect less :-) LUA could be nice as well, but since i'm more familiar with Python... I figured there are a lot of people who could use it, power in all it's simplicity so i choose Python, but if HP has a licence (owns) LUA that's clear and obvious reason for it... :-) The thing doesn't need to be stack based (from programmer's point of view) -internaly is not important, then again if we speak internaly: what isn't stack based :-) ? Saturn emulator would stay there for backward compatibility and people which prefere the RPN(L) Actualy i would rather if it was NOT stack based for variety. (similar to current choice: algebraic vs. RPN(L) mode) I was puzzled with the idea: when (way back) home-computers used Basic as programming environment, user interface ... substitute for what we call Operating System for some time now :-) How would it look like if it was based on modern expandable modular language just like Python. True, my dream machine would need more memory but when you consider that not more than average cell phone nowdays has more than 10 MBs and WinCE devices typically 64MB are getting cheeper every day. Nevertheless: -swapping environments on SD would be nice and if we consider that there is One could have several Saturn environments on the SD ...so manny ideas (not wild dreams though) yet so little time -if i could dedicate my time entirely to this -one could expect serious results, but very few people can... -so we have to be content with what we get from people who have the time and guts to do something serious like you HPGCC guys. Now when i re-read our posts this is what comes out on the top of my head : Several times before i was introducing the idea of a virtual machine which would be ARM dedicated -not translated JAVA VM or Saturn emulator for ARM, rather entirely new virtual machine which would be the core to compile and/or interpret higher level languages. Something like .NET (tm) but without Windows(tm) NOR Linux (free-source -> god forbid) :-) The built in compiler and command interpreter would be set up from environemts stored on the SD the similar way you are describing, In the library of languages, my personal favorites would be: Python, LOGO, maybe Basic.(something for every age group) it could also include: C, Pascal, Fortran... Of course it would run Saturn emulator natively and native ARM programs about the same way it does now. Finally: I would like to be involved in your project to some level (actually as much as my spare will allow) manjo P.S. I agree it's a lot to do, but then if it was much less it would already be done :-) The concept we're talking here may resemble to Qonos but we're talking about operating system (software) To rephrase the two key statements you used: to humble-down my dream machine Goal is to humble-down the dream to fit in to the machine :-) === Subject: Re: Calculator defined On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 04:10:35 +0200, manjo >> H NO... DO NOT forget C Do not forget Ada! Ada is THE MUST! And COBOL! What calculator can be without COBOL!!! A.L. === Subject: Re: Calculator defined > On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 04:10:35 +0200, manjo >> H >>NO... DO NOT forget C > Do not forget Ada! Ada is THE MUST! And COBOL! What calculator can be > without COBOL!!! COBOL for the business calcs, APL for the scientific ones - obviously :-) === Subject: HP graphing calculator power consumption I have measured the current draw of various HP graphing calculators in order to get some idea of how power consumption has changed over the years. Going from the 48GX of 1993 to the 50G of 2006 shows about four times as much (300% more) power used. The most surprising thing I determined is that the 50G consumes significantly more power than the 49G+. Not only does the 50G have one more battery, but it also manages to draw more current, resulting in an effective 40-50% greater use of power. I do not have any explanation for the increase. All measurements were made by measuring the voltage across a 10.0 ohm resistor in series with the batteries and calculating the current draw from that. This means that the higher values may be off by a bit, but the numbers should be accurate for the most part. An Extech multimeter, obtained at Radio Shack, was used for the measurements. I repeated a few of the measurements with a nice Fluke multimeter, and the results were approximately the same, so the Extech can be trusted. All tests were done with fresh batteries to ensure consistency. Tests for each model were done using the first calculator I found lying around. Tests on subsequent examples showed differences from unit to unit in the 5-10% range, so more accurate results could be made by measuring several calculators and averaging them. All figures below are measurements of current in milliamps. For power consumption, multiply by 6.0 volts on the 50G and 4.5 volts on all other models. Calculator 50G 50G 49G+ 49G+ 49G 48GX 48GX 48GX # of cards 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 2 ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Idle 15.5 14.9 13.9 12.5 6.9 4.9 5.3 6.0 Blinking 18.8 18.2 16.9 15.6 9.5 8.6 9.0 10.0 Plotting 74.4 79.5 69.3 73.3 20.5 23.2 23.8 25.3 Transmit Serial 89.2 93.1 n/a n/a 21.6 24.3 25.0 26.3 Transmit USB 86.1 89.9 70.4 74.7 n/a n/a n/a n/a Transmit IR 88.5 92.0 74.1 78.3 n/a 24.3 25.0 26.3 Open I/O Serial 30.7 34.9 n/a n/a 7.4 5.3 5.8 6.4 Open I/O USB 27.7 31.8 25.6 29.8 n/a n/a n/a n/a Open I/O IR 31.0 35.2 29.9 34.1 n/a 4.9 5.3 6.0 Beep 1 kHz 79.5 83.5 62.7 62.0 21.9 23.6 24.5 25.0 Write flash 90.0 95.2 74.0 73.4 24.5 n/a n/a n/a Read flash 77.0 82.0 63.6 67.7 24.5 n/a n/a n/a Write SD n/a 72.0 n/a 68.0 n/a n/a n/a n/a Read SD n/a 72.0 n/a 68.0 n/a n/a n/a n/a Off 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.8 0: Zero cards installed 1: 128 KB HP (or 128 MB Sandisk) card in slot 1 2: 128 KB HP card in slot 1 and 1 MB HP card in slot 2 Running the Meta Kernel on the 48GX drops blinking power from 9 mA to 5.4 mA with only the 128 KB card installed and from 10 mA to 6.1 mA with both cards installed. When the IrDA port is open, the 50G and 49G+ briefly show an increase of about 5 mA about every 5 seconds. Data transmission tests were performed with no cable connected (for USB and serial) or no device in range (for infrared). Eric Rechlin