2005 === Subject: Re: what to do with [any downloaded files] Contributors package things in different ways, so if they forget to explain how to install anything, then one pretty much has to inspect the files manually to see what they are. Windows' notepad or write.exe (WordPad) will generally suffice as a quick viewer (or even the internal viewer built into WinZip), and anything that's meant to be transferred to a calculator will start right off with one or another of: %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); This is a header line for a cable transfer program. Anything starting with %%HP: is UserRPL, in text form; the file can be transferred to a calculator via cable, using transfer software which automatically recognizes these files, or transferred to an emulator by dropping the text on the stack and then using a previously-posted interpreter program, which you could, if you like, save permanently in your emulated calculator. You can also use that interpreter in a real calculator, on similar text files carried to the calculator via an SD card. HPHP49-etc... [the remainder may not be displayable] Anything starting with HPHP49- is a binary calculator object file; when dropped on the emulator stack, it is immediately recognized and interpreted -- if it turns out to be a program or a directory, say, then you'd store it into a variable, under suitable name, or if it turns out to be a library, then you'd store it into a port (e.g. 2 STO for permanent flash memory) That's evidently UserRPL text, without any %%HP: header; treat it the same as %%HP: stuff (if using a cable and a file transfer program, you may need to click the text tool button in the transfer program window, so that it realizes that the file is text). HPHP48-etc... [the remainder may not be displayable] Also a binary calculator object, but for HP48 (incompatible with HP49/50); each calculator series accepts only binary files meant for its own series, and rejects the other (a sort of immune system, recognizing friend vs. foe, preventing any crashes or memory losses that might otherwise occur if the wrong internal organs were transplanted :) [other files] Documentation? Sometimes .doc is plain text, sometimes WritePad can read it, sometimes only MS Word (or Word Viewer) can read it -- who knows, so try Word first (if you have it), and good luck! Well, hpbinasc isn't quite what it sounds like -- all that it does character (in this case a right-arrow) in the symbol set used internally by the calculator. It then does one more small thing -- it prefixes 13 characters to the original text, so that now it starts with HPHP48-Xyyyyy As you can see above, it is now in the form of an HP48 binary file, but it's still only the original text string. If you drop that on an HP48 emulator (or calculator), you get the original string, but if you drop that on an HP49 emulator (or calculator), you get 13 extra characters in front, which you can remove via 14 OVER SIZE SUB; you can insert that into a program and save it for permanent use, if you want, but it's probably much less bother to store into the calculator a program which does what hpbinasc would do anyway, and skip the extra fussing about on the computer side of things. The converted _string_ can be compiled on the calculator, (after you remove any header line such as %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.);) Well, it looks as if you have a lot of concrete in your future; just don't get too weighed down while converting it :) === Subject: Re: what to do with [any downloaded files] thank you very much for the detailed explanation john! im really learning from you guys. i dont know how i could learn all this without you. cheers! elly === Subject: Re: Calculator defined As you correctly stated, you either emulate small self-contained routines or you emulate the whole calculator, which would totally defeat the purpose. Unfortunately, the ROM is not a set of self-contained routines. Not even close. The code is so entangled sometimes is impossible to follow. Even if you could separate the individual routines, you would end up with so many of them (some routines in the rom have several entry points, and they do different things according to the instruction you entered from), that it would be much easier to just write in Lua all the user-level functions in the Advanced User Reference manual. Besides, I think we all need to start thinking of abandoning the old saturn, in the smoothest possible way, but abandon it. Claudio === Subject: Re: Calculator defined Amen to that brother, although i'm a saturn lover but like the man (Claudio) said: it's time to move on. Actualy i think it would be great progress no mather if it will be Lua, Python, C as long as it's powefull, versatile and fresh. basically my wote goes to port-it-all solution :-) manjo === Subject: HP48 Cable I've looked around to find a source for a PC cable for my HP48GX but I can't find one (nor can I find my own cable). Can anyone suggest a source? Todd === Subject: Re: HP48 Cable listing on their order page. http://www.ramss.com/order.html#hardware A Google search found it in a minute or two. Rich W === Subject: Re: HP48 Cable You can make your own HP48 cable saw this links. - http://www.geocities.com/hpcables/cable49g.htm - http://www.geocities.com/deachp/duda14.html www.hpjhuavi.zor.org/ === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? [who?] More readable (?) than: 'example(a,b,c)=sqrt(a/b+c)' DEFINE and is exactly what the above DEFINE produces; that's why DEFINE was invented, to make this so simple and easy, even if you won't use it, or perhaps just forgot (also that user functions can be specified entirely algebraically, Actually, the HP system puts its effort into compile-time optimization, with consequent superior run-time efficiency. False notion (watch out for that FUD :) Evidently it did once serve, then. That's exactly what Wickes and HP had in mind when they developed it: The HP 48 calculator was designed to be a customizable mathematical scratchpad for use by students and professionals in technical fields. [the first sentence of RPL programming guide rplman.doc] The orientation of the product and its user programming language is towards simple customization by the primary user. It is what it says it is, and does what it says it does; perhaps arts teachers should try an Xpander instead :) Did fork (invented later) replace knife and spoon? http://www.bookrags.com/research/knife-fork-and-spoon-woi/ [is this a student paper mill?] I guess you've never had to follow Microsoft fixes to anything, in knowledge base blurbs, most of which involve editing the Windows Registry, extracting missing DLL's from CAB files on your SP2 CD, and the like, right? Here's what I had to do to fix Daylight Savings Time on Windows 2000 (for computers [and servers] all over our campus): http://support.microsoft.com/kb/914387 [Create a registry file for English builds of Windows was what we needed, just take a look at it!] But Microsoft Outlook users weren't done yet: by using the Time Zone Data Update Tool for Microsoft Office Outlook http://support.microsoft.com/kb/931667 The Time Zone Data Update Tool will not be distributed through Microsoft Update or through Windows Update. The Time Zone Data Update Tool must be downloaded (manually) from the Microsoft Download Center and then run by the user. Another version of the Time Zone Data Update Tool is available for servers that are running Exchange Server... Additionally, administrators must address Collaboration Data Objects (CDO) that are used by Microsoft Exchange... And the Daylight Saving Time Help and Support Center for IT professionals says: Products in extended support require an Extended Hotfix Support Agreement ($4,000 charge for all DST updates). But what do I care? -- the complexity of Windows just means more consulting fees for me, right? It's win-win (MS wins, I win, client pays us both). Q.E.D. Move indoors during thunderstorms :) [FUD, the three computers must be for one person] $500 for Professional, per computer (roughly what our computers cost) Vista costs a great deal, for exact reasons you gave -- so many problems that support desk is drained -- tiny printing, can't select more than two items in a list, other softwares have to be re-purchased in new version for Vista, existing hardware can't run expanded bloat,... Who *needed* Vista, anyway? Planned obsolescence, once again, because big, profit company has to keep forcing new sales of same thing, much like pay per listen You described one daughter, as apparently unable to handle Linux, getting Windows because of peer pressure, now argue with yourself about that. Well, the Devil does need advocates :) -- Y === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? [who?] Of course, more readable.Theer are more examples. Take, for example, the following: D9D20C9262823621B133D9D20CAFF232230CAFF2 6450332230645033D303B9FF2B2130B2130 + DUP BYTES DROP #CEAEh == #100001h * LIBEVAL 'LOGB' STO Is there any better way to present the algorithm more CLEARLY?... A.L. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? [who?] And there's no better example than a hex dump of ROM -- who can make anything of that? (TI's probably makes better sense, though, as everyone can read their CPU's ML). . === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? [who?] What is this Windows 2000?... A.L. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? What a surprise, considering your ongoing critical barrage. But of course, considering what comes later, this makes you an elitist -- why don't you instead practice what you preach, throw it away, and use only your TI, as an example for others to follow? Was teaching ever mentioned before in this discussion? Both brands have just as algebraic an interface (HP49/50 in ALG mode), both also display graphs, and all that -- it might be of interest to compare heuristic effectiveness in detail, but we have not done one bit of that as yet, as far as I can recall. As far as I am concerned, a blackboard is a far better tool for teaching than any calculator, and more can be learned by leaving a calculator in a backpack than by holding one in the hand. A calculator which simply takes given input and delivers a result as found in an answer book can be replaced by a copy of the answer book, just for allowing the student to check that their own result is equivalent; no calculator does much of anything to supply understanding, nor creativity, nor discrimination and judgment in what approaches to take to real challenges, etc., for which human mentoring is far superior, if only the mentor him/herself has the actual capability, which in some cases may be the underlying problem. As to critical mass market presence having anything to do with inherent effectiveness or value, I can't fathom the connection; five star restaurants are not very numerous, so does that mean that they can't be very good? Having commented a bit already, and not wanting to spend much more time, I'll simply lazily add one word: absurd (unless cherishing being different is why you like your HP50), and leave it at that. You seem to be speaking solely as a marketing advisor, then, in which case all that matters is increasing sales; all talk about relative merits is irrelevant, in the end, if the only thing that matters is sales, for as someone once observed, no one ever lost money underestimating the taste of the mass market. And since TI has already perfected its excellent and superior line, why not just love it, use it, and participate in its newsgroups, instead of spending time here, on this loser? Junk food (and other imbibable stuff) sells more than organic produce; society can pay for it later in the collapse of its health care system, and also in the true depth (or lack thereof) of its complete educational system, in which calculators are not only just one insignificant speck, but in some sense are also junk food, replacing experiences which can lead to deeper personal development and appreciation with mere table look-ups, unless they can serve as real vehicles for original thought and creative application and development. Remind me, which is your personally chosen OS? Elitist! (and hypocrite?) There is more to life than merely increasing its speed. [M K Gandhi] -- === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? I don't see anything wrong with pointing out shortcomings of the product that I genrally like. I see childlike behaviour in blindly supporting something because you happen to like it. I'm conservative but unlike Clinton supporters I'm not going to blindly excuse our current president ;-) But I would do it. If I wouldn't like RPN I would throw away HP50g the same day. In algebraic mode HP is a ridiculous choice when compared to TI. Yes, but HP is a poor copy of algebraic intefrace in an attempt to compete in this market. Why anybody would bother recommending HP if TI in algebraic mode has cleaner interface, produces simplified automatically answers, that are actually closer to the book answers than HP ? Blackboard is a different kind of tool, so the comparison is not valid. Oh this is actually perfectly easy to answer. Five star restaurant costs five times more per meal than McDonalds. TI actually costs slightly more than HP product. If anybody would have a choice of cheaper five star restaurant, McDonalds would be bankrupt the next day. I hope, you don't suggest that HP is a McDonalds of calculators due to its cheapness ? :-) I know that it is made in China by Chinese company but even they can sometimes made something without using lead paint ;-) So you can self congratulte yourself about this great prduct you have ? No way. I'm gonna stick here to expose every little thing I don't like about HP products. I own one so I have a right to complain about it :-) Windows of course. Same story as with five star restaurants :-) === Subject: Re: i'm online...!!! ---- WHAT...!!! What is the complicated way of doing it...??? i used to be able to do it easy enough, but that was several years ago, before Apple started using UBS ( or whatever...??? ) so now they're the same as Wintel's...??? It's just a question of finding a 'Primative' Communications program that will work with this stupid OSX...??? ( i've heard that it doesn't even run most pre-X software for previous mac's...???!!! ) ??? === Subject: Re: i'm online...!!! That's where the money is: http://www.ubs.com/ Spare no expense (it's your money, after all :) http://virtual.ubs.com/start.html (don't forget to take the elevator) Those not in the money have to live in Boot Camp: http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/ http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/apple_boot_camp.asp http://www.jwyopp.com/graphics/tin_can_phone.jpg === Subject: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g hi, just got my new 50g,enough with experimenting with the emulator, i will now be playing with the real thing, and all i know is how to update the ROM by downloading it from the hp site and using my SD card to update it. before doing anything, i've decided to consult you guys, specially john and gian, on updating my ROM, it already confused me because i have read about other unofficial roms posted, are they worth installing? because i am always fond of installing cooked or experimental roms on my other gadgets since they tend to function much better. what productivity programs should i install? whats the best file manager, battery monitor, or any other program that made life easier or even more exciting using the 50g? i want to do this before i learn more things about my calculator. i tried to search the forums but the other posts was about the 49 and its posted quite a while ago, maybe i could start a new post about what to install first on a 50g calculator. thanx in advance. elly === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g [and emulator] Just a thought -- it's possible to keep your calculator and your emulator in sync by doing backup in one, and restore on the other, using either SD card or cable to transfer the backup between calc and computer. Since most externally acquired programs arrive first into your computer from the internet, and since perhaps some find it easier to type and edit their own programs on a big computer keyboard and screen, it's possible to start out installing all on emulator, then via SD card to calculator. The emulator also recovers even more instantly from any crashes (instantly return to last memory checkpoint, even undoing TTRM :) which may be profitable when debugging SysRPL or trying out experimental stuff. re-open saved file from hard disk to recover, so what I've chosen for my own strategy is to keep a more permanent calc state saved on disk, to checkpoint and instantly restore while experimenting and debugging. Glossary: TTRM is the calc analog of BSOD in Windows, meaning Try To Recover Memory? (but it's usually too late) === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g It's the real thing http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/ccmphtml/colaadv.html (this is what the U.S. Library of Congress does in its spare time) Note that things did not go better while shooting the ad, they should have drunk more Coke first. Isn't it 100% productive right out of the box? (except that there is no box, right?) Don't let Jean-Yves Avenard read that! (his file manager is the one built-in) When the display goes blank, it's time to change batteries (just always carry spares, no worry :) TI is the one that's supposed to be easier; HP is for people who want to tough it out (according to some recent posts :) There should be downloadable greyscale movies, somewhere. That's NASA -- shoot first, check O-rings and foam afterwards. The batteries :) A good policy, just in case you don't like it later :) and for not minding these dopey OT answers (sorry, I should have said this in advance :) -=-=-=-=- === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g oh btw, what if my calculator goes dead while im in a middle of an exam because our exams last for 4-5 hours each time. hehe... what can you say? === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g Take bacpack of batteries :) Or slide rule. Or take CASIO... Or... A.L. === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g hello again, is the HPuserEdit still the best known programming GUI available for userRPL? thanx! elly === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g OK. To clear up the annoying battery issue: the HP uses 4 AAA batteries and it eats them up relatively fast (unlike other calcs). You can tell if your batteries are low because if you look @ the top of your calculator you will see a couple of signs that indicate keys. For example, pressing LEFT SHIFT will toggle the left shift key on the top of the calculator (right above the screen, that is) to become activated (so you know that you have pressed LEFT SHIFT in case you forget). Similarly, when you batteries are low, the thing that looks like a dot and has two waves coming out of it will be highlighted which will tell you that your batteries are low. You can of course download other programs if you want, but I don't really use them since there is a built-in detector. Also, I doubt this will work for rechargable batteries since they always confuse detectors. === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g thanx graywolf, guess that is the best answer to my question. cheers, elly === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g my emulator but i dont know how to restore them in my calculator. can you give me an instruction on how to do this? elly === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g and can you also give me a simple work flow on coding in your notepad, testing on the emulator then transferring then on the calculator via SD or cable. thanx in advance. elly === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g Why is that? Do they have to wait for the concrete to set? -- At my temperature, freshly poured concrete freezes immediately - no waiting. === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g Gesundheit :) Actually, even if a bad brand new battery drops dead in its youth, a calc reset and/or fresh set is likely to be all that's needed, and if not, you can restore a backup in seconds, literally (if you made one :) -- Gotta get back -- Titan is getting hungry (and thirsty). === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g Why not put in new batts just before an exam? === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g hi saturn rising... good to hear from you. can you tell me more about ROM since i've read your other posts about roms and it seems that you know things about them. what ROM do you suggest me to use? thanx! cheers! elly === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g Well, that of course depends on what exactly you need to be productive. :) Here's some of the stuff that I have on my 50g (running ROM 2.09): - WR utilities: Filer6, Keyman, Unitman, OT49+. These are classics, and greatly simplify common tasks such as dealing with user-defined keys and units. See http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/raut/WR49 - Programming: Emacs+Nosy+SDiag are really essential if you want to do some onboard SysRPL development, but they're also very useful for user RPL programming. The SDiag data can be installed on an SD card, and allows you to have onboard documentation (stack diagrams and short descriptions) for almost all user and sys RPL entry points. And Emacs gives you an enhanced editor with autocompletion of function names (with the appropriate key assignments this is also available on the command line). See http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/emacs/ - (Shameless plug:) GoferLists provides Haskell-like generic list functions implemented in SysRPL which make list processing much easier. http://hp50g.pbwiki.com/GoferLists - Organizer v1.1 (nice to have a real calendar/PIM onboard). See http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4572 All this stuff also runs on the 49g, of course. I'm sure that others will chime in with ARM-specific libraries and programs like OpenFire, the ARM Toolbox etc. And their favourite games, of course. ;-) Concerning programming, hplua, Hugh Steers' port of the Lua scripting language to the 50g, is certainly worth taking a look at as well. http://sourceforge.net/projects/hplua Just my 0.02, Albert -- Dr. Albert Graf Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: Dr.Graef@t-online.de, ag@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW: http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g thanx albert, i am now trying to install the utilities you suggested, hope to hear from you more often. i may have lots of questions regarding all these... thanx! cheers! elly === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g Hi elly. Besides what Albert already correctly (IMHO) suggested, I'd advise to take into consideration: - PEQUM (Personal EQUation Manager), by Tim Wessmann (http://pssllc.com/pub/pequm.zip) - updated version with the capability of adding notes to the equations being stored) - Save Unlimited Command-line Entries by John H. Meyers dmode=source) - a real *amazing* program to keep track of the commands issued, for re-use or modification - a couple of quick backup and restore program - for example these by Joe Horn's: Hope you enjoy those programs. Giancarlo === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g cheers! elly === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g oh, i forgot to ask what battery meter do you use gian? === Subject: Photo gallery of new HP-35s After recently receiving my new 35s, I decided to take a few photos of it before getting it all grungy, since I will be using it as my day-to- day work calculator. It is indeed a *very* handsome looking device in person and I am nowhere near as bothered by the four arrow keys as I thought I would be. The return to the pre-Pioneer series keys featuring sloped fronts with function labels really helps to unclutter the calculator's keyboard and makes using it, at least initially, far more pleasant with less squinting and hunting around for the right key. The keys have a nice smooth feel with a light tactile click and so far, no hint of missed keys or ddoubled keystrokes. Hopefully these shots manage to portray some of its distinguished good looks... http://mikemander.servehttp.com:8008/sublime_new/hp35s/ I would very much like to see an HP-51g successor to the 50g with a redesigned keyboard similar to the 35s (traditional ENTER, sloped front keys, raised lip on the calculator's sides), even if that were the only change. Some firewalls will probably take offense at the non-standard port used on my image gallery, but since my ISP is blocking port 80, I have no choice for my server at home. Apologies if this causes anyone difficulty... Mike Mander === Subject: Re: Photo gallery of new HP-35s Well, after looking at the hype - 35th anniv of hp 35 etc - and the info on the calculator itself, not to mention photos, I bought one just for old times' sake. Obviously it is a huge improvement on the original, yet as Mike notes, has some of the physical features of the original 35. I think it will replace, in my opinion, the 'best' calculator ever, the Hp 42s. It has the two-line display, hopefully not the abysmal decimal point of the 33s, and a much larger memory than the 42s. On the downside, I gather (has not arrived yet) that the program labels are limited to 26 single letters. Even the 42s has the ability to compose label strings. OTOH, the new 35s has the 'goto' feature - the ability to branch to line numbers. This much-hated (by c-programmers, those who program in the write-only languages of c and c+) feature is very desirable (see Beware of 'Beware of GOTO' online...). A welcome return of a very useful feature; those who would jam structured programming' down the throat of us small-program writers must be furious - good. jrc === Subject: Re: Photo gallery of new HP-35s It does some calculations, too?... A.L. === Subject: Re: Photo gallery of new HP-35s Nope, just sits on the desk looking pretty. Mike P.S. The first sentence which ended with I will be using it as my day-to- day work calculator might answer your question too... === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption If the batteries are in parallel, then adding one more battery will increase current capacity by, in this case, (3+1)/3=1.33 times. If the batteries are in series, then current capacity is that of the weakest battery, or basically every battery if you start with fresh batteries, that is, it's unchanged. I don't have a 50G, but I'm pretty sure the batteries are in series. Rich === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption No, batteries supply voltage. Current depends upon the load resistance. Any constant current device varies the voltage to achieve the desired current. Current is a result or voltage and resistance, not a cause. The IC's in the calculator are most lokely CMOS. CMOS draws current only when changing state, that is, as a function of clock speed. I'm not clear that the same CMOS circuity would draw 50% more current at a slightly higher voltage. If this were the case, then one poster's suggestion, short out one of the battery slots, would work. It's a simple test, but I'd think that it unlikely to produce the desired result. My guess is that there's more circuitry in the 50G. I don't have one yet. Been out of the picture for a few years. But as the kids get older, I may be able to spare some cash. :-) Batteries don't even care about that. :-) My latest rechargeables are rated at 2100 mAH. They are hybrids. Rich === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption That's how they're rated, but it doesn't tell the whole story. The reality is that if you draw a constant current, the voltage will decline on a curve, and the shape of the curve varies depending on the battery technology and the specific cell design. Sometimes the battery specs include such a curve at a particular load current. However, most devices do not draw a constant load current. They usually do one of two things: 1) draw less current as the voltage drops (resistive load) 2) draw more current as the voltage drops (switching regulator, constant power) This makes predicting the battery behavior rather complicated, and is one of the reasons why so many devices that try to provide a battery guage to the user do such a poor job of it. === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption I do. For a resistive load, the power increases with the square of the voltage, so increasing the voltage by 30% will increase the power by almost 70%. The electronics in the 49G+ and 50G isn't a purely resistive load, but it still may have a more than linear increase. If the 50G had used a switching regulator, the current would have decreased with the voltage increase. Oh well. Maybe in the next model... === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption impression that part of the problem is that the 50G turns on the 'Low Battery indicator at a significantly higher voltage per cell than the three battery units did. Reports indicated a low power indicator turn on at about 1.05 volts per cell or less on the 3 battery powered units and at about 1.2 volts per cell for the 50G. With turn on at the 1.2v level a alkaline cell is only about half discharged. A good part of the observed decrease in battery life can be directly related to this change I would expect. The only reason I can see that makes sense to me for the change, from an engineering standpoint, is the expectation that users of the 50G are going to use NIMH batteries. At 1.05V a NIMH battey is so close to fully discharged that unless it is immediately changed there is an excellent chance of program disruption and/or memory loss. At 1.2V the NIMH battery is still about 85% to 90% discharged but has some reserve capacity left so that immediate change is not so critical. Unless the designers had their heads inserted in their hemmoroidal tissue, or I do, this seems to me to be the only logical explanation for the observed design change. Rich W === Subject: Re: New Problem from Crazy OSX Hater... Just to make sure that there is no confusion about this: Computer is not the same as Windows box... and a Mac is much more of a computer than a Windows box could hope to be. Happily, all is not lost even if you have a Windows machine - you can erase Windows and install a REAL operating system... === Subject: Re: New Problem from Crazy OSX Hater... Can't be true. Apple recently removed the word 'Computer' from their company name. Ergo: They don't sell computers;-) You certainly mean OS/2... However I think this is enough about this and that 'computer'. As long as it works for the tasks you have to do, just use the machine and OS you like. === Subject: New Problem from Crazy OSX Hater... ... In this, of all groups, I would hope that people would avoid making such elementary logical fallacies. That Apple sells things that are not computers does not imply that Apple does not sell computers. MacDonalds sells french fries. Does this mean that they don't sell hamburgers? *sigh* Craig === Subject: Re: New Problem from Crazy OSX Hater... It seems impossible to avoid all possible fallacies. Did you notice the smiley? :-) === Subject: Re: New Problem from Crazy OSX Hater... Sorry to hijack the thread for another subject, but there seems to be a few Mac users reading along.. Is anyone able to run the 49g+ or 50g KML files in Emu48 on OSX 10.4.10 (latest)? It will run the 49g KML, as well as the new 39g and 40g KMLs, but crashes when loading the others. Might it have to do with my screen resolution? The KML header says it's ...for 1280x1024. My Macbook Pro is 1440x900 max. Also, I noticed the 49g+ and 50g KML files use rom.49g. So... if I manage to edit the KML and get the 50g running in Emu48 is the best that I can do is rom version 1.18, Copyright 2000? If that is the case I am not too interested in getting a 50g running on my laptop as I have Power48 on my pda. Pal === Subject: Re: New Problem from Crazy OSX Hater... I guess you're right, but you lost me there I'm old enough to be over adolescent anti windows and anti MS fazes so i stick to whatever works for most people. based on this group, several other groups and my above simple explanation/definition : windows works undoubtedly ! manjo === Subject: An Advanced RPN Scientific Programmable I feel that there should be a reasonable market for an advanced RPN programmable scientific calculator and would like to see it with the following capabilities. Close compatibility with the 41CV, and 42s for backwards program compatibility as much as possible. Extended capabilities welcome as long as the backwards compatibility is not lost. 64K Ram as no more should be needed with SD card support IMO. USB port with built in USB communications firmware so programs and data transfers are a simple drag and drop file transfer as USB external drives are handled by Windows and Maks. Calculator to be able to be USB port powered when plugged in. Include a PC/Mac based program editor and syntax/spelling checker for full screen program development and writing on the computer. A accurate calculator emulator included for the computer would also be great for program development and debugging. Quartz crystal clock with full instruction support for time and stopwatch functions as in the HP 41CX or the HP 41 Time module. Extendable stack and full transparent automatic support for complex functions. The stack also needs to be able to be set to the old standard fixed 4 registers deep for backwards compatibility with HP 41C series and 42S programs. Program execution speed in the range of the 48GX with minimum power drain for long battery life. Also use the largest Lithium coin cells available for maximum battery life. Possibly programmable and user settable clock speed so that the user can choose between minimum power or maximum speed operation. A small camera type Lithium Ion battery might be considered as a power alternative. Size and weight comparable to the 35s, 42s or smaller with as large a display as this limitation allows. User choice of power off timeout time, also programmable. OK guys what did I leave out in the way of desirable features? Rich W === Subject: Re: An Advanced RPN Scientific Programmable OK, then start manufacturing one. A.L. === Subject: Re: An Advanced RPN Scientific Programmable If I had that kind of expertise and money I would not be hanging around here! Besides aren't you the self declared TI lover, why should you care? I never cared much for their manuals either. Rich W === Subject: Re: An Advanced RPN Scientific Programmable Contrary to many participants of this group, I don't make sex with calculators. Therefore, TI lover does not apply. However, I am sensitive on nonsense, such as suggesting that somebody, somewhere, and HP in particular will develop new RPN calculator to give RPN lovers new toy to make sex with. Developing new electronic gadget, bringing it into production, providing customer support and organizing distribution channel would cost in the range of 5 - 10 million bucks. How many should you sell to break-even? There was the initiative reported on this group to develop modern calculator, named Cognos, Ocnos or God knows how, don't remember. Check what happened. And, of course, when you claim that, quote, there is reasonable market, this means that you performed detailed and quantitative market analysis?... Otherwise, how would you know?... This group is valuable source of technical information, and I appreciate this, but unfortunately is a playground of guys with kindergarten mentality. A.L. P.S. If I love technical gadgets, these gadgets are not calculators but high end audio equipment. === Subject: Re: An Advanced RPN Scientific Programmable A.L. You could well be correct but I notice that on an ongoing basis people seem to be paying some mighty high prices on eBay for obsolete HP RPN scientific and programmable calculators. To me that indicates an ongoing interest in such units and their RPN operating mode that is not being satisfied by currently available products. Rich W === Subject: Re: An Advanced RPN Scientific Programmable Currently, I believe there is no RPN calculator available with I/O beyond the keyboard and display. (It's been a long time since the 41 series was taken off the market!) One or two high-end RPN calculators with USB, SD, and IR as well would be great. Display improvements in calculators are overdue. Look at the dual displays on a Nintendo DS! How about higher resolution, greater speed, and color? It (or they) should have the traditional, professional appearance and quality keyboard(s) that HP seems to have rediscovered. The shift keys should be solid color, not colored only on the top. Glare on the display screen should be minimized. Perhaps TWO machines are called for: one smaller (42S-, 35s-sized) as Rich described, and one 50g-sized, with a large, square display, more beefier (rechargeable?) power supply and greater speed. All software that works on the smaller machine should work unchanged on the larger machine, if possible. The user community should be used for beta testing. Bugs could be squashed, and shortcomings fixed (like the theta-that-looks-like-an- eight problem with the 35s). Make sure the checksum function works. A small, USB direct-connect printer might be popular. === Subject: Re: An Advanced RPN Scientific Programmable I was figuring that the larger size is well covered by the RPL units and the structure of RPL programming is probably better for larger programs. Also unfortunately it seems to be true that greater speed requires higher clock speeds for the processor and this raises power requirements. Just look at the 49G+ and 50G with their ARM processors as examples or the very limited run time given by the average PDA's battery before it requires recharging. I remember how the old LED calculators ate batteries or required frequent recharging, imo a pain. That is one reason for suggesting the fully documented user control for clock speed. Slow it down for battery life similar to a 11c or 42s and speed it up when you need the fast operation for a sizeable program and run through the batteries faster. In the limited calculator size I was talking of the display cannot get too large or fancy due to the requirements for a reasonable size calculator keyboard. Get the display large and in full color and you are moving into the PDA or pocket computer category. What is the point of the bidirectional IR interface other than possibly to be able to download programs from the 41C series with IR module or the 42S? Seems like computer IR interfaces are vanishing and the 82240 printer is now out of production. Not just the shift keys should be full color. Older HP units, through the 48SX and 42s series at least, used double moulded keys where the primary function was actually moulded into the key top in a different color plastic. No way to wear that symbol off in normal use. Starting with the 48GX the keys use silkscreened symbols it appears based on my units. Rich W === Subject: MacOSX + HP48gx i started a new thread, because the posters in the other thread were suggesting that, for some crazy reason, i will not be able to communicate with my HP48gx using the new ( Completely Different from all previous OS's ( you can't even run pre-X programs on X...!!! )) Mac OSX...???!!! What...!!! === Subject: Re: MacOSX + HP48gx It doesn't have anything to do with OS-X. The HP48gx uses a non- standard serial port to communicate. The Macbook doesn't have any serial ports. There's no easy way to connect the two machines. To connect them, you would have to find an HP48 serial cable; a Mac- support USB-RS232 converter, then you would have to download and compile the Unix tools for the HP48 and compile them for the Macintosh. If you're up to the task, then you can do these things and it will work. === Subject: Re: MacOSX + HP48gx Based on 40+ years in computers the term RS232 standard serial interface is an oxymoron. It has gone from a 25 pin D connector to a 9 pin to the HP48 4 pin and from relatively high voltages of + and - 15v or so to + and - 5v TTL signal levels. In the early days of personal computers Diablo Systems used to publish a whole manual on hooking up their serial interface daisy wheel printers to all of the different permutations of the Industry standard serial interface found on various common personal computers from Apple to Xerox. Connecting high voltage signal and low voltage signal devices could sometimes even damage equipment. Not until several years after the introduction of the IBM PC 25 pin serial interface connector, and later the AT 9 pin connector version, did anything approaching a common standard RS232 cable and connection arise. The IBM was so popular that virtually all new printers had interfaces designed to work with the IBM standard interface signals and cable. There are definite reasons that the serial port with it's speed restrictions and other problems is disappearing but that does leave the user of the HP calculators with serial interfaces with a problem. For many PCs add in serial boards are still available for those with the need. Sorry to hear of the Mac program compatibility problem as I thought they had tried to preserve backwards compatibility. That is a difficult task though when the computer system has used three or so entirely incompatible processor families over the years. Rich W === Subject: Re: MacOSX + HP48gx Rich - what backwards compatibility? HP has never supported their calculators on the Mac, and the Mac hasn't had RS-232 ports for at calculators were completely out of luck. I chose to only support HP's USB models because, frankly, that's what I owned at the time. I had owned an HP48G previously, but a coworker talked me out of it. === Subject: Re: MacOSX + HP48gx Actually. as soon as the hp series allowed SD cards, you could transfer stuff between a card and the Mac, and between that card and the hp. This allowed even upgrading the system files through a Mac via the SD card. But HPConnect makes everything else between Macs and HP49/50s (except for such upgrades) much easier. === Subject: Re: MacOSX + HP48gx My error. I have never owned a Mac but remember reading years ago that the operating system included emulators for the older processors so that old programs could be run, even is somewhat slowly, on later Macs. Apparently with the latest operating system version this is no longer true. It may have never been true for drivers and programs which handled hardware. Rich W === Subject: Re: MacOSX + HP48gx Apple has actually been quite good at supporting previous versions: - The PowerPC processors could emulate the 68K family processors they replaced. - The first versions of Mac OS X could run OS (System)? 9 programs - The current HW (Intel Core Duo processors) can run programs compiled for PowerPC processors - in some cases, at a higher speed than what the original HW was capable of. Note that this covers 2 changes to completely different processor architecture, and 1 change to a completely different OS architecture. As far as HP48 support goes, it should be relatively easy to get it running under Mac OS X. You'll need one of those USB-to-Serial adapters, but you can get one of those for less than 10 these days. I got one made by Manhattan, and have used it with Minicom to verify that I can talk to my HP48GX from my Mac. === Subject: Re: MacOSX + HP48gx first place, there's nothing to run in backward compatibility mode. === Subject: Re: MacOSX + HP48gx OS 10.3 still allows some of the old programs, but OS 10.4 and onwards cut off everything not written for the OS X series. === Subject: Re: New Mac Connects not Univesal, but Intel only????? My bad. Apparently I missed a flag when setting the options. If you download it again, the new version should work on PPC macs. === Subject: Re: New Mac Connects not Univesal, but Intel only????? === on September 29-30th, things are looking really good with 4 HP calculator-division people scheduled to speak, along with our 15 others who have expressed their desire to give presentations. We are still expecting also to show Steve Liebson's new video interview with Dave Cochran, one of those who were intstrumental in bringing the HP9100 desktop and HP35 pocket calculators to life. There are currently over 60 people registered to be in attendance. ***Also, if you haven't yet made hotel reservations, the special $99.- per-night conference discounted rate is only available if you register with the Holiday Inn before September 1st, so hurry. *** In the HP and HHC News section, a new announcement has been posted regarding the HP Calculator Division's new GM. In addition, on the main page check out version 4 of the door-prize list, which has now grown to allow for at least one prize for every currently-registered attendee. Also check out the section called British HPCC Users Conference, covering some aspects of the upcoming HPCC 25th-Anniversary conference at the Imperial College in London on October 13-14th. See you at the end of September, Jake Schwartz === === Subject: Re: HP35s - no question, A great calculator for the money For all calculators, a PDF documentation/manuals are avalable on the HP website, execpt for the new HP35s. Is there a reason or better would it possible to download it somewhere (preffrably in English language). GGES === Subject: Re: HP35s - no question, A great calculator for the money Currently there's no online manual for the 35s, but there are so-called 'learning modules', which should cover most if not all aspects of the machine. HTH Raymond === Subject: how do you save equations on the sd card? hi everyone, special hi to mr. tim wessman, i am using your pequm program to manage the lots and lots of equations that my course requires. and just one afternoon of inputting them, it seems like its already taken a lot of space in the small memory of my calculator(697kb). is there any way to transfer all of them on my sd card and solve it from there? or you could suggest anything? and it will also be safer if all the equations are there just in case the calculator crashes. thanx! elly === Subject: Re: how do you save equations on the sd card? Mr. Tim Wessman. . . I guess I'm moving up in the world. I'm only 24 yrs by the way. :-) I suppose I could modify it to pull in info from the SD card, but it would increase the program size quite a bit. . . currently it tests to make sure you are in the EQUATION folder in the home directory. The real question though, is how many equations are we talking about? I wouldn't even start worrying about your memory until you get down to around 40k free in HOME. Don't store anything in port 0 as that is the same memory space as HOME. To backup your equations, just copy the EQUATION folder into your SD card. Like I mentioned a day or two ago, easiest way to manage files on the calculator is to use the filer. :-) Go into the filer, find the COPY menu key, press it, and then press 3 to automatically select the SD card and copy it. TW === Subject: Re: how do you save equations on the sd card? thank you very much everybody! i will be trying everything you suggested guys. and mr. wessman, i will sure be waiting for the next version of your PEQUM.... and one more thing, is the filer the same as the one pre- installed in my calculator or the filer that i should download from hpcalc? whats the difference between the filer and filer6? thanx! gian, good to hear from you again, everything you post here really helped me, i really owe you one! and everyone else in this forum also. thank you very much! best wishes! elly === Subject: Re: how do you save equations on the sd card? I probably won't do anything to it for another year or so, so I wouldn't hold your breath. The buttons. The filer is using the built in filer (and I use it in PEQUM) just with some cutsom keyobard assignments and menu buttons. TW === Subject: Re: how do you save equations on the sd card? okay then, thank you very much! i guess i will just use the port 0 to store my equations. ill just make sure not to be lower than 40k. === Subject: Re: how do you save equations on the sd card? Just copy a backup of your EQUATION folder to the SD card. DON'T use port 0 for anything really have to as it takes away space from HOME. left in home. . . you just kept saying that you were concerened about memory. === Subject: Re: how do you save equations on the sd card? Hi elly. Sorry to jump in even not being TM ;-) On the PEQUM.pdf document that comes together with the program you can find that: To backup and restore your EQUATION folder to an SD card or port memory, simply use COPY and copy it to the desired location. Don't know if it helps, but anyway... :-) Giancarlo P.S.: Andreas' suggestion is a valuable one as well :-) === Subject: Re: how do you save equations on the sd card? if you are getting really serious about your equations you might consider the TreeBrowser and it?s editor, the TreeBrowserBuilder, which allows you to create your own sets of equations similar to the built-in equation library but presented in a tree view. The equation library is available as an example data set. A full functional version can be found at http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de Please read the docs, they do cover the use of the program in depth and have detailed explanations how to work with the program. you 50G Andreas === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? Don't you get it; he's a troll. End of thread. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? bs... A.L. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? since 2001. I read the entire thread before posting. It is time to end this thread. === Subject: Evaluate a path in the custom menu HI all. I was trying to do a couple of (supposedly) trivial things: 1 - create a custom menu using the CST variable; I would use filenames referring to programs *not* stored in the HOME directory but elsewhere(let's say {HOME UTILS} ); 2 - search for past hints about that in the group archive....... As you guess, I did not succeed either in no. 1 or in no. 2 ;-) I thought something like: { {HOME UTILS PROG1} {HOME UTILS PROG2} } would work - nope! :-( Anyone to suggest the correct syntax to let the CST items be files stored elsewhere than HOME dir? Giancarlo === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 a person who is always himself using this newsgroup as a personal toilet, Is it there for Windows? Then open your manual and read it some time: Please logon to http://www.hp.com for the latest service and support information. -- Back to my own clean planet, whose inhabitants are more civilized. === Subject: Re: advice on what programs to install on a new HP 50g Where did you find out about this? I cannot find any reference to it in the user's guide. It does say, Warning: When the low battery icon (not identified) is displayed, you need to change the batteries... But that's it. jrc === I have a place to stay and my own transportation. How much is it to get in the door? I could not find this information on the website or in the .doc. Pal === It is generally 30-50$ to cover the cost of printing materieals for people. Actualy price is determined once the printing is done. TW === Very good. I now see the need for the attendee list. I will have a meeting with the wife this evening and hopefully forecast if we'll be in town. Pal === Subject: Re: An Advanced RPN Scientific Programmable With calculator drag-and-drop file transfer and Wi-Fi, downloads could be easy. Imagine having a cup of coffee at a local beanery, while downloading/installing an OS upgrade followed by some programs, and being finished before you've drained that cup! Technology should be that easy. === Subject: Re: Evaluate a path in the custom menu I should add that if there's only a single equation in the library's subject, MSOLVR will fail. In that case, John's SOLVEQN is preferable if you have the required table of subject numbers. Bill === Subject: Re: Evaluate a path in the custom menu thank you very much bill and john. i have been reading the previous post of john and trying to understand them, but sadly, my calculator experience is still at a beginners level and i don't know how to implement them in my case. i have read that the eqations there are already placed on the hp49? so it means that its already on the calculator? john, please help me on how to use the: STEQ 30 MENU @ basic menu version STEQ #B4001h LIBEVAL @ form-based basic solver STEQ MINIT MSOLVR @ Multiple Equation Solver (MES) can you give me the complete syntax on how to implement these? thank you! best wishes! elly === Subject: Re: 35S: Zipper Case vs. Slip case Ann's Corner Store is closed? === Subject: Re: 35S: Zipper Case vs. Slip case Appears so. Her own web site comes up 404 and her eBay page says she moved and was looking for a place with lower fees. === Subject: Earthlink dropped this group from their news server.... ...so now I am using Google to see and use the group. Sigh..... Maybe we all should call Earthlink and ask them to bring it back.... Even those that do not use them, it would fight for the principle of the thing ;) ;) === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? HP-16C. Since then, I've become addicted to the 41CX and 48GX too, but the 16C remains my all-time favorite. http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/memories.cgi?read=23 -- [CapitalThorn].bes ofereode, [CapitalYAcute]isses swa m.beg. (That passed away, this also can.) from Deor, in the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v) === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? I chose HP because I heard it was a computation machine and had lots of math functions! :) I'm speaking of graphing calculators. === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? The first scientific calculator I used extensively was a Friden. Since then I've always wanted RPN. -- Quis corriget ipsos correctores? === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? I got the HP15C in 1983. (Bought at a Foleys depertment store in Houston) I also got the Advanced Functions handbook for it...(they actually had it in stock at the Foleys). Best documentation ever for a calc. and i doubt anything ever will come close again. === Subject: 35s Anomalies Two pieces of anomalous behavior noted so far. 1. The calculator turns off when either shift key is operated prior to the on/off key. Not per the manual or the expected operation based on color coding of shifted functions. 2. A number entry that starts with depressing the E key then an exponent value and pressing Enter gives a syntax error on the 35s. All other RPN and RPL HP calculators tried, and the 20s, accept such an entry. On those units pressing E enters 1 E in the x register or data entry line. A complete entry of E 2 Enter on all except the 35s puts 100 in X or level 1. As noted, on the 35s this causes a syntax error as soon as Enter is pressed. Rich W === Subject: Re: 35s Anomalies But this is consistent with the original Pioneer series calcs, at least those with two shift keys. The unshifted key is ESC or Cancel, either shift will turn the calc off. On the Voyager series calcs (10C-16C) , you can turn off the machine wihout pressing any prior shift, but you can also press f or g before ON to turn a Voyager off;-) Yes, It also encountered this weird behaviour of the 35s. Wouldn't have been too difficult to implement... I still hope they make a relaunch of the 42S :-) Raymond === Subject: Re: 35s Anomalies Of course it should read like: ...either shift key, followed by ON, will turn the calc off;-) === Subject: Re: Q: Saving from Google Groups with Explorer John H Meyers ha scritto: Not here :-( Just the first few lines of the screen are saved in .txt file, but no threading.... Any special settings needed? I tried to turn off Java + Javascript, but didn't help..... Giancarlo === Subject: Re: N Size Battery Cheap Source I am pulling this recommmended source as the first person I know who has used it ended up receiving at least some batteries almost a year beyond marked expiration date. I have ordered from Digi-Key who offer Energizer N batteries for 70 cents apiece in lots of 24. I will post the results of my purchase if any problems found. Rich W They offer a pack of 48 Energizer N size alkaline batteries for === Subject: Re: Evaluate a path in the custom menu I guess I have to jump in ;-) Mine let you choose which solver to use. Either the form-based basic solver, the basic menu version or the Multiple Equation Solver (MES). Depending on the flag settings and depending on which kind of list is represented by the cursor the appropriate solver is automatically chosen. Also through message handling the old form-based basic solver behaves like the new Inform Engine IfMain/IfMain2. This means, that you can input all your values on the command line and through pressing [ENTER] all fields in the form will be filled with the values in order. Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: Evaluate a path in the custom menu thank you for all the info guys, sure did help a lot. i am trying each and every program and methods suggested here in order to find whats best for me. thank you! hope to hear from you all again. cheers! elly === Subject: Battery Charge in hp48g Hi... Is it possible to know the level of charge in the batteries of the HP-48? If yes, What`s the command or instructions to do it? === Subject: Re: Battery Charge in hp48g No software listed Here for the 48 series to do so other than some which apparently monitors the low battery warning. That would not however quantify the battery condition as software for the ARM processor calculators can. http://www.hpcalc.org/ That is presumably a flag setting but I could not find a listing for a low battery flag # for the 48 series. Rich Wood === Subject: Re: Battery Charge in hp48g The HP-48 has a ML entry called =ChkLowBat, which does what the name implies;-) IN: Interrupts disabled OUT: CS: Low battery condition CC: Bat OK USE: A[A],B[A],C[A],D[A],D0,ST,P,CY The above routine is called for some energy-intensive tasks, like printing, or I/O in general. HTH Raymond === Subject: Re: TED and 30 Columns - GaaK - === Subject: Re: TED and 30 Columns It's a deal. I was waiting to see what changes you would make to the existing version. I hope things are going well in Peru after that dreadful earthquake. Bill === Subject: I got a misaligned ARM code error.... Something happened to my Extra Functions program by Steve Schmidt. it now says the code is not allinged when i try to use it. In the beginning I used the Fix STO command to install the Elib49 for it. Now that it got misalinged, what do i do. do i delete it, and re Fix STO it, or do i leave it where is is, and just redo the Fix STO command on it????? === Subject: Re: I got a misaligned ARM code error.... I fixed it. I deleted the old library and re stored it again with the Fix STO command, and it works now. :) === Subject: Re: I got a misaligned ARM code error.... It because sometimes when you install things into port 2, it reearranges things to amke things fix better. This can move the library with the arm code and so it now isn't alligned how it needs to be. Like you discovered, reinstalling works. TW === Subject: Re: I got a misaligned ARM code error.... That would be fit not fix. Thats what you get posting 2 minutes after rolling out of bed in the morning. . . :-) TW === Subject: Re: Anyone knowing PPC-Danmark here ? That wouldn't be it, since the PPC CD ROMs only cover the U.S., British and Australian newsletters/journals. The web site stated above is old , actually, and the more up-to-date one is http://www.pahhc.org/ppccdrom.htm for any who happen to be interested in obtaining any of the 20,000 or so pages of printed materials on HP calculators from English-Language publications between 1974 and the present. Jake Schwartz === Subject: Holland HP48SX Lib - REF? Hi all. I still have my old 48SX and recently got the Holland card/book HP 48SX Engineering Mathematics Library for it. Pretty mind-boggling collection of functions. One thing it doesn't seem to have, though, are simple functions for putting matrices into Row-Echelon Form and Reduced Row-Echelon Form. There are the GAUS and AGAUS functions which seem to be related, but it is not obvious to me how to use these to convert the matrices to these forms. Has anyone done REF or RREF with Mark === Subject: My HP50G does not run with batteries Cc: My Hello I have a problem with my HP50G I don't now what I do. It doesn't run with batteries only star ON when it is connected by USB. The are ideas to solve my problem I hope that you can help me... See you later....and greetings from Peru www.hpjhuavi.zor.org/ === Subject: Re: My HP50G does not run with batteries Check the contacts of your battery compartment it is possible that (depending on battery) there is weak or no contact at all. Try to bend contacts (springs) so that contact would be more reliable. Pay attention to contacts with + pole of the batteries. manjo === Subject: Re: Synchronizing Emu48 with calculator Hi John. OK - I used your version (hoe JOe doesn't mind too much :-) Did it - on the stack there's the BK00n... I saved the BK003 (in my case) directly to the SD card - don't think this will hurt... Nope - I'm getting a Bad Argument Type error after the :3:BK003 RESTORE :-( I saw with the built in filer that the BK003 object is a HPDIR type, instead of the (I suppose) expected BCKUP one.... It worked flawlessly, indeed I *know* I'm missing something obvious, but now my brain needs rebooting.... May you point me to the right direction? Giancarlo === Subject: Re: Synchronizing Emu48 with calculator [what backup object really is] JHM: GM: My oversight -- just copy from SD to any other port, then restore. Port 0 will always have enough free memory (if by chance not, then there will be, after ON+A+F, No :) This will only matter in Port 3 (SD card); any HP directory can be restored to HOME from any other port, although it's more popular to restore actual backups of HOME itself :) What a backup object really is: (this geek speak can be skipped without harm :) and to know its length, so *any* object stored into a port (except a library, which already has a similar format) is first put inside a wrapper, which is called a backup object, not referring to backing up my calculator, However, whenever any object is _recalled_ from these places (or its info is reported by the Filer), the wrapper is automatically removed, and only the original object itself is seen, which in the case of HOME is just an ordinary directory. So when an archive is first made to a calculator port (:0: thru :2:) and then copied to SD or saved from Emu48, it is just a calculator directory, not enclosed within a backup object. When any directory is copied to a real port (:0: thru :2:) it there becomes a backup object again, at least inside the port itself, in the eyes of the RESTORE command. An SD card is not considered an actual port, however, because it is an external disk that can also hold non-calc, foreign objects; thus external storage (:IO:xxxxx ARCHIVE and :3:xxxxx ARCHIVE) are the only places that one can ever catch an object whose type actually says backup, because STO and RCL otherwise transparently wrap and unwrap the actual inner objects, as they enter and leave ports, without our ever noticing. The backup object made by :IO:xxxxx ARCHIVE always contains the internal name HOMEDIR, which been seen only by people copying it back to their HP48 or HP49G from their computer, or by people who actually read their HP48 User Manual :) === Subject: Re: Synchronizing Emu48 with calculator [what backup object really is] Addendum and summary, re :2:BK001 RESTORE vs. :3:BK001 RESTORE :3:BK001 RESTORE will work, if it was made by :3:BK001 ARCHIVE Otherwise you must copy any HOME directory backup to any real port (:0: thru :2:) to restore it. Reason: The copy of the HOME directory made by :3:BK001 ARCHIVE still contains its backup object wrapper. Otherwise the object loses its wrapper, but becomes a backup object again (internally) when copied to any real port. === Subject: Re: Synchronizing Emu48 with calculator Might be that RESTORE only works with Port0, Port1 and Port2. The SD- Card is not a port in the traditional point of view. This is alright, ARCHIVE makes a copy of your HOME directory and the filer can access this. HTH Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: Synchronizing Emu48 with calculator Hallo Andreas ! Wie geht es dir? Your guess was right - storing the BK003 directory obtained with the ARCHIVE command in port 2 and restoring from there did the trick :-) Vielen Dank for your tip! Auf wiedersehen. Giancarlo. === Subject: Re: Synchronizing Emu48 with calculator good thing were doing the same thing gian, i used joe horn's backup and restore program because of its one click soft menu. i also saved my backup file directly on the sd, accessed the file via the emu48 but sadly, im too scared to restore the edited file to my calc thinking that it will cause problems. im still waiting if i have a lot of time and no exams to use my calculator on if i do this. anyway, you are there, i hope you can figure it out so that you can share your experience again. good to hear from you again gian. i hope you dont mind me butting in. cheers! elly === Subject: Re: Synchronizing Emu48 with calculator Maybe you?d like to take a look at http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de/DeutschSeite01/Archiv.zip It is free and archieves your HOME-Directory *and* Port0 into Port2 of your calc. Files are date- and time stamped. Restoring and archiving is done through a GUI and completly automatically. It was originaly written for the 49G and someday I?ll update it for the 49G+/50G but it is still very helpfull. I use it all the time to restore the content of my real calc after testing devolping versions of my own sw. A similar function in filer6 was inspired by this software. HTH Andreas === Subject: Re: Synchronizing Emu48 with calculator Hi again, Andreas! Wow, I had never realized about that *amazing* piece of software! I quickly tried it into the emulator and it works great - is fully self-explanatory and I think I'm gonna put it on my real 50G asap :-) Just to clarify: the HOME dir backup file is the one starting with AH, while the port 0 backup file is the one starting with AP, aren't they? Giancarlo === Subject: HP-35s: numeric constants in programs Hi all, I just read the Datafile HP-35s review by Gene Wright. Concerning the amount of memory used by numbers in programs it says: | Numbers in program lines | | 35 bytes. No short form. The number 1 takes just as many | bytes as -1.23456789E-55. IOW, any number requires the same 35 bytes, regardless how many digits it uses. It doesn't matter wheter a program line contains a 1 or maybe -1.23456789012E-123, any number requires 35 bytes. Okay, I tried this on my HP-35s. Consider this example: LBL A RTN This results in the expected LN=6, i.e. 3 bytes per instruction = 6 bytes in total. Now a single 1 is entered. LBL A 1 RTN Result: LN=10 Obviously the 1 has increased the program size by four bytes. Not 35. Another example: LBL A 1234567890 RTN Result: LN=19 Obviously the ten digits require thirteen bytes of program space. In both cases (one or ten digits) the MEM function states a memory consumption of 38 bytes, compared to the first program version without a number (in my case it's 28364 vs. 28326 bytes). What happens here? Program size obviously changes with the number of digits (and signs, E, decimal point etc.) used for entering the value (here 4 resp. 13 bytes). OTOH any numeric constant seems to eat up the same 38 bytes of memory. Question: where does the difference go? The 35s also seems to handle constants as a special case of an equation. The usual 3 + equation length bytes are used, and any number seems to get parsed at runtime, not earlier. You can enter numeric nonsense such as 1.23E-3.45E999 and the 35s will happily accept it - until the program is run. This would also explain why the 35s gets so slow when numeric constants are involved. In this case it would make sense to enter short values in a more creative way. Say, Clx e^x instead of 1 or Pi IP instead of 3. Have I missed something? Any comments? Dieter === Subject: Re: HP-35s: numeric constants in programs Dieter; Sounds logical however with 32K of memory available, only 26 global labels available for programs and no means of saving programs outside the calculator for easy backup and reloading, memory use efficiency is probably not a major concern. Living as I do in a very low humidity area, Reno NV, I have had virtually all the HP calculators I own lose memory at least once due to ESD, particularly in the winter. This has been my biggest problem with the HP 42S calculators. Losing 32K of programs with only manual reentry available would be truly annoying. Rich W === Subject: Re: HP-35s: numeric constants in programs Yes. But where do the remaining 34 bytes go when a simple 1 requires 38 bytes of memory while only 4 bytes are used for the program itself? For instance, are there any hidden null bytes like in the 41 series, that - unlike the 41 - cannot be PACKed away? Wait until that big 20x20 matrix comes along. <8) I now see that living in an area with less sunshine and more rain and humidity seems to have its special advantages. 8-) Well, maybe it's time for a good old '41 with card reader. 8-) Or a 50g. Or maybe a new 43s, somewhen from HP. Dieter === Subject: Re: HP-35s: numeric constants in programs Dieter; I agree totally. IMO the cheap and easy answer today is to include both USB communications capability and a SD card port as the 50G has. I just want them in an RPN unit no larger physically than the 35s. I can dream of course! Rich W === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? My father come down on early 1979, when I just decided to study Forestry Engineer, and gave me a very strange calculator he had receive. The calculator DID NOT HAVE THE EQUAL KEY, instead has an ENTER key he did not know what was for. He could not use it because of that, did not work properly, he couldn?t even make a sum (4 + 4 = instead of 4 4 + in RPN) Was a HP 41C. I got interest on it, becuase it has a PERMANENT MEMORY (when you turn off the machine it retain ALL the memory contents) all Casio, and must TI could not did that on that year. Then notice it has ALPHANUMERIC messages !!! Wow It could talk to me ! ! ! So I got the manual (VERY GOOD one) and learn how to program it. With all the functions in permanent memory, and many programs I made, impressed must of my teachers. I finished must of the tests in 25% of the time required, with perfect calculations, NO ERRORS where found on my tests ! VERY GOOD DANIEL (they said) why don?t you help your classmates ! ! Then I found the Expansion slots with more memory and programs (it was expandable too ! ! ) incredible for the time being. Math, statistical, finantial and TIME modules (you could have a cronograph in your machine ! and measure the eficiency of the field work JUST THERE ! ) Finally you coud HAVE A PRINTER, and you could print a graph of the functions and data you have in memory, and show it to everyone in few minutes ! ! ! I could show instantanesously wich trees you had to take off in a plantantion instead of having to go to the office, to make all calculations, and come back to find the trees you have to thin or prune ! ! ! So, that HP41C help me to graduate with honors, one year before all my classmates, being the best student they have had in 20 years ! I loved that and the HP41C help me a lot to do that ! Being pro, bought HP41CX (more memory) HP48 S, HP49G+ and now HP50G. I always impress must of my clients having everything on my hands all the time (wood prices, forest inventories, telephones, statistical data analisys, personal references, etc) so why not to choose HP ! it does everything I need and much more ! Daniel. === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? My first exposure to HP calculators was my father's co-worker's HP-41 which I borrowed one evening because I needed a scientific calculator to do some high school assignment. It took me about 5 seconds to get comfortable with RPN and from that point on couldn't easily use a regular infix calculator anymore. I had also done some programming in Lisp and Forth at this point which may have contributed. I bought my first HP (HP-15C in 1988) because I wanted something that could handle complex numbers natively for my University Signals EE course - I figure it bought me an extra 1/2 hr not having to do all those operations by hand and partly why I got the highest mark in the class (which was only an A-) I had this calculator until last year when I dropped it somewhere on my 60 acre property - oops. -- Dominic Richens | knob@storm.ca If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying attention! === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? actual HP hardware I did all of my calculations on my Palm III. There are now tons of calculators for that platform, and while I was coming up through college I kept downloading the latest and greatest calc apps that people were writing. (EasyCalc and Powerone are the work horses which immediately come to mind). I survived Calc I with EasyCalc (No CAS! I had no idea how easy the TI kids had it), but halfway through Calc II, I saw a screenshot of Power48 on some Palm forum and couldn't believe my eyes. At that time, Power48 was in the alpha or beta stage, I think, so I decided to buy an hp 49g+ after figuring out what the hp 49 was (CAS!!). And compared to the hp 49 Power48 was emulating, I thought the hp 49g+ was one of the classiest looking calcs I'd ever seen. (Yes, I like the hp 49g+ styling more than the hp 50g). So after pitching out $150 on a relative unknown, turns out my first hp calculator was the current model with serious production issues. Power48 (http://www.mobilevoodoo.com/index.htm) EasyCalc (http://easycalc.sourceforge.net/) PowerOne Graphy (http://www.infinitysw.com/products/ poweronegraph.html) If it wasn't for the legend of HP, their service department, and all of the moral and technical support here, I probably would have switched to TI before receiving my third replacement hp 49g+. (Happily, my fourth hp 49g+ replacement was an hp 50g). Scary part is, if Robert had completed a TI emulator for Palm first I might have never visited this newsgroup or the MoHPC forum. Pal === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? Once introduced to RPN entry in the late 80's by a friend/engineer that I worked with, I've never looked back. I bought a 28S shortly after that. Honestly, it could be the brotherhood environment that makes them even more interesting. When I see someone else with an HP calc I kind of nod my head and think yeah, another believer :) Now, 25 years after graduating high school, I'm a junior in engineering college (late bloomer). Calculator policies have evolved recently (over the past 5 years or so) and all my classes, if they even allow a calculator, only allow those approved for the FE exam. So, for RPN, that means the HP 33S. I'm hoping that they will add the Hp 35S in November when they recompile the list. No complaints here about the policy, since it does force the student to do the work instead of the calculator. But is is kind of sad to leave that nice HP 50S home, along with the 28S 32SII 48SX and 48GX. Mike M. === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? When I saw the HP brand, I knew that is a unique and different type of calculator than Casio and TI, by my first high end calculator, the HP48G in 1997 when I was in the high school. Professionals of my family and friends told me that HP was another dimension of quality, support, style and advantages than any calculator brand. In first time, I experienced the RPN, HP solve, units conversions, plot equations, RPL programming, that was a amazing advantage, having the most powerful calc in the classroom. Then, in the University, Architecture, I choose other HP calculators, HP49 in 2001, and the Humberto Estrada === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? [on a sliding scale] Which still calculate at warp speed :) Actually, wooden types often last indefinitely, though usually slightly imperfect from the outset, and metal (Pickett), which never warp at all, have thicker rulings to make up for that :) Post and Pickett equally lay, in sheaths no mold has covered black; I've saved all mine for another day, yet knowing how way leads on to way, I doubt they'll ever see me back. [apologies to Robert Frost] http://www.bartleby.com/104/67.html http://www.bartleby.com/119/1.html -- Nothing ever so sincere That unless it's out of sheer Mischief and a little queer It won't prove a bore to hear. [Robert Frost, unpublished notebook] http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/frost/road.htm === They list 1 and 2 meg cards which claim to be HP approved so presumably have the sliding shutter and meet HP current and voltage specifications. http://www.ramss.com/hardware.html They also still list serial cables for the 48 series calculators. Rich W === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? The only thing is that much of your pointing out is based on the worst way of actually doing anything, rather than the best way, so in my opinion it is either contrived, or you should be acknowledging that you see the truth of what's pointed out, after its being shown to you, if you really knew no better to begin with, as is the normal response of other people who have made innocently erroneous presumptions. The *interface* is the same (perhaps EQW is better or not, I mean the essential nature of inputting algebraic expressions). The *answers* of the CAS, however, and some difficulties in its transformation/simplification abililty are where I believe the focus belongs, whereas you seem to blame all issues on there being an RPN engine internally, which I say has nothing to do with it (unless it was an obstacle to CAS author BP, which only he would be best suited to comment upon). When in ALG mode, the RPN internal engine is simply invisible; how any calculator's internal mechanics work does not impact the user when the user does not see it. If they want to be able to use that engine for themselves, it's there for them, and is very good for scratchpad figuring, but if they want to remain solely in ALG mode, that's also there for them. Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it. [attributed to Charles Dudley Warner] http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/wftwarch.pl?091206 As I was saying above, I believe you also mis-direct your complaints, and have offered false assertions and false examples, thus being misleading, as well as non-constructive. I misread; you only foist Linux on _other_ people! :) I even tried to convince my daughter to use [Linux]... I also attempted to convince few of my friends to use Linux on the computers that I build for them. I tend to build my PC's and I also do that for few of my closest friends who trust me with this stuff. BTW, do you build calculators? Where do you get your CAS from? Back to HP49/50, it's conceivable that forcing the project to use limited time, limited ROM, and limited money had more influence on the final outcome than anything else; if so, all this intellectualizing and trying to blame the internal RPL OS is a complete red herring. === Subject: 50G flag -78 A search here shows that this flag is supposed to select between the USB and serial ports on the 50G. Is this documented anywhere in the HP documentation? I ask because I could not find it anywhere in the 1500+ pages of HP documentation and with the latest level calculator firmware it is not even listed in the flags menu. I/O seems to be singularly ignored in the current manuals. I already note differences between the documentation and reality such as the instructions for how to format an SD card. Rich W === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 Complete flags seem to be listed only in the AUR, and the AUR is the one item not updated for 50G (nor even included with 50G), but that one flag (and a cover page) is the only AUR update needed for 50G. Here is the documentation, per TW, copied from -34 CF (IrDA) -34 SF -78 CF (USB) -34 SF -78 SF (Serial) Of course, you can consider it self-documented within the calculator, shows the same choices (in words), and sets the same flags accordingly. By flipping USB vs. Serial and XORing the before and after flags (RCLF), the affected flag number may be deduced, although this is needed only for programming, since the manual interface otherwise includes the settings above, and the APPS menu is identified in the User Guide, pointing to the I/O Transfer submenu as relating to I/O transfer (a logical place for controlling the Serial port) on page F-2, although not down to the details within the Transfer submenu itself. But also on page F-2: You can also use a serial cable to connect to the RS232 port on the calculator. (This cable is available as a separate accessory.) [apparently the author wasn't told that availability was not from HP :] === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 Great, great, HP is great! AUR I think means Advanced User Reference. WHERE AUR is mentioned in HP-50 manuals?.. WHERE?... is this on CD?.. Of course, not. HP is crap... A.L. === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 Not only is the AUR not mentioned in the manuals but there seems to be virtually no coverage of I/O for the HP50G in any of the manuals compared to what was documented for the original HP 48S/SX and 48G/G+/ GX. I could not find the serial port documented or indexed anywhere. As I noted earlier the procedure for formatting a SD card is also incorrect, leaving out steps, as does the procedure listed for storing objects on the SD card, at least the way I read it. The old rule of Give step by step examples, illustrated is not being followed. is that it is listed as a documentation download on the 50G Manuals download tech support page. Even when it is downloaded the one flag change in the HP50G is apparently not documented anywhere in the HP literature. Whatever HP division is now supposedly writing or controlling the calculator documentation is IMO doing a very poor job compared to what Corvallis used to do. I have not tried HP Tech support for their calculators but since HP tech support was moved to India I have yet to get a correct answer regarding any computer hardware or driver question I have asked. Rich W === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 What is even worse, there is nowhere said what is stack, what are operations on the stack, what keys can do operations on the stack and what is RPN in general. I have in front of me original manual for HP-16C. Section 2 is The Memory stack and Stack Manipulation that gives VERY detailed explanation of stack manipulation and stack based operation. All Old HP manuals have such section. There is nothing like this in modern manuals (well.. with exception of HP-33 where SOME stack operation are mentioned). Assume that somebody not familiar with RPN purchases HP-50. How he can figure it out what is RPN, how it works and how should be used?... HP is crap... A.L. === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 What's that note on page C-13 of the HP50G (and 49G+) User Guide, under References for non-CAS commands? I wonder why it back-referenced all the way to the HP48; does anyone recall whether there was ever an intermediate 49G AUR? Only a passing mention on page F-2 of the HP50G User guide, just as it is a feature without a cable -- not even a pinout :) It's most odd that these manuals don't more prominently say to visit the web site (wasn't that on the front page of the 49G manual?), except to register your product and for the latest service and support information at the end (but better late than never :) Perhaps everyone is thought to know by now that one always goes to a manufacturer's web site to get info; anyway, if one does pay a visit, a more recent (than HP48) AUR will be found. I see two procedures mentioned (in User Manual), one using ON+D, and another using the Filer; what steps are missing? I didn't find the info in earlier note, but I'm just not too thorough in reading documentation (or offering references to what I'm saying) these days :) Gee, my manual (PDF) goes step by step; actually it's too detailed, showing every individual keypress used in spelling out a directory name (when used) -- to me, this obscures the actual string they are trying to create, which isn't pictured as it will look on the screen, or is that what you mean? That's usually a sign that it might apply to the product whose page is being viewed, even though it says many non-updated things, many parts being just a touch-up of the classic HP48GX AUR that was given honorable mention on page C-13 :) I've had more trouble trying to get a very critical BIOS update (to get past a BSOD on every boot) for my HP Pavilion computer, which even on the web site absolutely refused to reveal its existence when I said my OS was Windows 2000, but could finally be found only by my lying and saying it was Windows XP instead (it was absolutely necessary for Win2K as well). True; luckily there is an I/O transfer menu which sets it correctly anyway, and for members of this select secret comp.sys.hp48 society, it has been documented here (or you can call my 900 number and I'll personally chat about it :) No doubt. I wonder whether anything has shifted, in regard to typical user profile and product usage, product development investment, product life cycle, profit margin, accessory sales (cable & SW kit used to be add-on purchase, not free) -- we here remain as we were, but the world has meanwhile changed, and is not making these things for us any more, in case we haven't noticed (if they were, they might have mentioned the connector pinout, as they also once used to, but in the midst of all this complaining about lack of documentation, hardly anyone mentions any need for that specific info :) As modern product development pacing ever increases speed, documentation never completely catches up, and the recently mentioned agile (or extreme) programming model even holds that the product documents itself -- you see what it does, and that's the documentation, which in fact I've often said about various HP calculators having the final word, and trumping what their manuals say. There are omissions in the original 12C product's manual, mistakes in the 15C manual, amateurish and sloppy programming in the included 34C application booklet, and wrong answers for N in Begin mode in its TVM simulating program; (BTW, were those also Corvallis products?), in case you never noticed, as well as minor bugs in most products themselves, even in the revered (and forgiven) original HP35. Ask people of Indian culture and history about the greatest computer ever created -- the human mind, which can comprehend the totality of the creation it lives in; Eastern civilization has known and preserved more knowledge about this than any western society has ever known, yet we discard that treasure and pine for prettier pocket calculators. -- I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me. [Isaac Newton 1642-1727] === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 It IS worng, i.e. manual says different things that reality is. I don't remember exactly the problem, but I had to experiment a bit. Maybe we have different manuals?... A.L. need magnifying glass to read kesstroke examples. Old manuals were publishing marvels. === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 I think that A.L. is maybe been payed by T.I. :?)... The information about SD cards is in the Learning Modules... that everybody can download from HP Web... Anyway i think that it`s true that documentation is very poor.. === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 . Merde. Gowno. If I purchase complex product, ALL INFORMATION NEEDED TO USE THIS PRODUCT SHOULD BE IN THE BOX. If this is on the Web, there should be list of documentation that is available from Web, INCLUDING URLs. I have NO CLUE that first thing I have to do is browse this group, browse various web sites, upgrade ROM, and do guesswork. Moreover, documentation that is on CD takes aobout 10% of CD capacity. Wny other stuff is not on this CD?.. IF something stinks, then it stinks. However, HP Lovers are trying to convice the public that it stinks like perfume. It does not. Long live TI! Down with HP! A.L. === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 OK. Have you ever actually try to USE costomer support located in India?... I can assure you that there are equally many idiots in western civilization as in eastern, and from eastern's civilization great times not that much has been left. Esatern civilization past was great, but you understand... this is PAST. A.L. === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 Sadly true. I don't know where this J.D. Powers crap is coming from. Scott Chapin === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 Complete document describing all the System flags (CAS ones included) for both HP49G and HP49G+/50g calculators. In PDF format... http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/misc/flags14.zip www.hpjhuavi.zor.org === Subject: Re: 50G flag -78 Published on 2005/05/31, this was a year before the 50G arrived, so for flag -78 it says Related to some sort of Kernel Parameter, just as the 49G+ AUR says -78 Kernel parameter. Not used. Hope all is well for you. -[ ]- === Subject: New Problem from Crazy OSX Hater... Ok... it did something really crazy... Maybe it was after i installed FruitMenu...??? i turned my macbook off, and back on, and it had forgotten EVERYTHING...!!! it forgot where the dock was supposed to be, all my bookmarkers for safari and opera, the screen picture and screen saver... and a bunch of fonts... gawd i hate computers. ugh. === Subject: Re: New Problem from Crazy OSX Hater... Seems a Mac tries to make everything easier, even loosing things;-) Seriously, it looks as if your user profile got corrupted somehow. Possible causes: Defective HD sector, manual deletion... That's why you have a Mac instead of a computer:-) SCNR Raymond === Subject: Re: New Problem from Crazy OSX Hater... You got that right Raymond :-) manjo === Subject: Re: Synchronizing Emu48 with calculator threading indicates; if it's about synchronizing Emu48 and calc: Make backup on Emu48 just as on calc, either like Joe Horn, or via PUSH :2:BK001 DUP ARCHIVE (flags and current directory path are then automatically backed up). Now your backup is stored in emulated flash [see later note]; you can recall it to the stack again via :2:BK001 RCL (or EVAL). If you did the DUP (or extra ENTER) as shown above, then :2:BK001 remained on the stack, so you didn't have to type it again :) Now that the backup (which looks exactly like a directory) will save it to a computer file of your choice (perhaps name it BK001, just to suggest something :) to your calculator; if you transfer via cable, I think you have to first store in a variable, but the Filer can then move it to a port, if you want more permanent saving (all variables will get wiped out when you restore the backup). Ready to restore? (Note: this will *replace* your entire HOME directory, so first back up or copy anything you *don't* want replaced!) Okay, :2:BK001 RESTORE (or :3:BK001 RESTORE, depending where the file is); in a few seconds, the calc restarts (warmstart); if you had done PUSH just before the original ARCHIVE command, now do a POP command -- Done! Transferring a complete backup from calc to Emu48 is obviously just the reverse, except that you either drag the backup file to put it first on the Emu48 stack, then save it wherever appropriate Here's the promised note about flash (port 2) on Emu48: usually saving to computer file ram.e49 -- if you bypass that save When you STO anything into Emu48 flash port 2, however, that *immediately* stores the modification, directly into the ROM image file (usually rom.e49); this can not be undone or forgotten by exiting Emu48. The Emu48 ROM image file date and time, however, as shown by Windows, never changes, because the ROM file is memory mapped -- you may want to keep that in mind in case you do any kind of updating by more recent file date, including freshen in WinZip, which will not be able to detect flash changes via date or time! Also, if you swap or update ROM image files in Emu48, remember that you are also swapping the entire flash port 2, so you may want to keep a set of individually saved objects, to store back into the flash port after any ROM update on Emu48. If you happen to be using an SD card for carrying files back & forth between computer and calculator, the SD card itself might be a convenient place to keep a copy of every object that's in flash port 2 (often just libraries and backups of HOME), as its files can be used both on the computer and in the calculator. As to naming backup files, I simply number mine consecutively; somehow this helps me to figure out which ones are the most recent, and the short (5-character) names remain fully visible in the menu labels for port 2 (longer names can be viewed only in the Filer, or via Review [right-shift, cursor down] in menus). Hmm.. that's all I can think of -- let me know if anything's been left out. -- The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. [Stephen Hawking] === Subject: Re: Synchronizing Emu48 with calculator you very much John! im trying everything you've said now. your really such a great help to me. i cant thank you enough. cheers! elly === Subject: Re: Photo gallery of new HP-35s The 35s programming is much closer related to the 32s program structure than the 41C and 42S programming format. The 26 maximum labels, and limiting them to single letters A through Z, is IMO stupid in a unit with 32K of memory. It makes it difficult to remember what a particular program does. At least the 41C series and 42S allowed a identifying word as the global label for a program. I like the 42s well enough so I have 3 of them, two purchased on a special sale of service repair units after normal production had stopped. With the limited number of functions and the limits on programming I do not feel that the 35s can replace the 42s but I am hoping that a version with an SD card slot, USB port for communications, 42s instruction set and other enhancements is in the works. Nice enhancements to a true replacement for the 42s would include automatic program transfer to SD card memory, quartz clock with time Rich W === Subject: Re: Photo gallery of new HP-35s Well, I have to agree almost totally with Rich. I too would like to see all that in a new 42s. But getting it is pretty unlikely. The 33s was a nice try, but also has single-letter labels and the decimal point is so tiny as to be unusable, in my opinion. In fact, I never use mine and almost threw it in the trash. May yet. Not worth postage to send it anywhere else. jrc === Subject: Re: Photo gallery of new HP-35s Rich, I agree fully. Personally, I'd also like to see a slightly adjustable stack, defaulting to 4 levels for compatibility but perhaps allowing up to 8 levels. Dealing with multiple pairs of numbers can be a juggling act on a 4 level stack for example. I would also like to see some form of local variable support. When programming my 41CX, I always had to be so careful of register overlap and created routines to save and load sets of registers into extended memory in order to preserve them from one subroutine to the next. Overall, the programming paradigm of the 41/42 makes it difficult to create generic, reusable routines and the 35s (and 33s, 32SII etc.) are of course even worse in that regard. For non-trivial programs, the RPL machines are far superior naturally, but I would still welcome enhanced programming in something really compact... as a 42s replacement would presumably be. And please make a 42s replacement faster! On some looping operations, the new 35s is solidly beat even by the old 32SII, and totally destroyed by the 33s! Mike === Subject: Re: Photo gallery of new HP-35s hey A.L. it seems to me that you're in a *very* bad mood recently? what's the purpose of your ranting? I haven't seen many constructive contributions to this group from you and i doubt that anybody is interested in reading your rhetorical questions. ...relax! ;-) === Subject: Re: Photo gallery of new HP-35s what Mats said.... -- Grumpy Aero Guy === Subject: Re: Photo gallery of new HP-35s How could you do this?????? Now I feel like I have to go buy one...... geeeez. -- Grumpy Aero Guy === Subject: Re: Photo gallery of new HP-35s well, i admit i am not a fan of 35, 41 etc... (older models) i'm in a new wave generation of 48S(X) and on... *but* these pictures realy look so great and incetive that i would realy go for it :-) manjo === Subject: Re: Photo gallery of new HP-35s Sorry guys! Trust me, I am not working for HP's marketing department... (nor MI5!!!) Mike Assuming you were asking me (or excuse my butting in if not :) Well, you found that simple 'IN' program, from a post? The very first program (two lines) had to be manually created on the calculator (or emulated calculator) itself; once that is on board, everything else in UserRPL (expressed in universal 7-bit characters that are all found on everyone's computer keyboard) can be imported from a text file, including the all the remaining programs in that post. Everything that I post is in fact created and tested the same way. First I type on my computer -- it doesn't matter whether in Notepad, or my email composer, or my Newsgroup reader (from which I submit posts directly), because text can be copied to clipboard from any window at all, ready to be run on the calc by just typing this command: IN Since I post (or type) the commands for storing things as well stores the programs, etc., so what's posted has been completely run on Emu48 first, and tends to work again on real calcs when tried at home :) If you save the entire part of a post which is intended to be run on the calculator, and transfer that file via cable to the calculator, the Conn4x transfer software tends to run it immediately on the calculator as well, so it installs directly on the calculator, the same way. If instead the file is carried to the calc on an SD card, then just recall it to the stack and type the command: IN on the calculator, the same as on Emu48, and the same thing occurs. Conn4x should actually *not* execute command files that way, but it does; if they ever correct that, and simply store the transferred file into a calc variable and leave it unexecuted, then just execute the original file that gets saved on the calculator (press its key -- done!) There are, as you know, various development environments (HPuseredit, Debug4x) which have their own composers, auto-completion, built-in syntax help, etc. What I'm describing here is at the opposite end of the spectrum -- just simply typing plain text, using no helper application, and then just running it where you can just type commands for the calculator to run, and they get sent to the calculator and run, as if you had typed them directly on the calculator. So my approach is useful when you know what to compose, and do not need any outside help (although you can always open your PDF manuals in another computer window and read them on the side, or use your emulated calculator's CATalog, built-in CAS help, or any additional on-board libraries already in the calculator or in Emu48, etc.) One little thing which you also need to know in advance is the set of for program delimters, etc. The rosetta stone for all this, which once was included right in the HP48 series user manual, was also posted numerous times, such as in I don't always remember every one of those myself, of course, but when I forget, I just ask an expert, namely the calc itself (or Emu48), on which I type the actual character or command (in quotes or in a list), then the command: OUT [that's the opposite of IN], and lo, the calc tells me! So what can we summarize: Creating and testing on Emu48: Transferring to calc: Transferring any object from computer to calc: Transferring any object from calc to computer: To get 7-bit ascii source files for any user objects in Emu48: All binary string object files saved from calculator or Emu48 are also editable, after deleting the 13-character binary file prefix: HPHP49-Xyyyyy [or just visually delete what obviously doesn't belong at the very beginning] What about the %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); stuff: o It's never required (set Conn4x options: Translate #3, check the next two boxes) o The advanced IN/INX programs automatically digest these headers anyway. o Use OUTX instead of OUT to include a header, whenever desired. How come Emu48 won't let me paste the string I want? o Is it all digits, or anything that can be interpreted as an integer or real? There used to be no exceptions, but now Emu48 *presumes* that any such syntax is intended to be automatically compiled, and the result may even depend on the current Exact/Approx mode; the only way to stop Emu48 from doing this is to insert a space, say, at the beginning or end of such a string. An example of this problem is when you've converted an object to a hex string you can not paste that back into Emu48, and any space inserted to get around this obstacle will mess up any calc command to restore the original object. to be cute and tricky, intending to be helpful, but unintentionally But Emu48 is a magnificent tool, without which no first- or second-generation HP49G+ (like mine) would survive, because its keyboard would otherwise have completely disintegrated by now, if it actually had to be used all the time :) and Christoph Giesselink (all subsequent development/improvement), and I never leave HOME without it :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Express#Credit_card_advertising === Subject: New Mac Connects not Univesal, but Intel only????? I downloaed the new mac Connect software verison 0.91, and its a Intel chip only program, its not a Universal binary like the web site says it is. i double click on it, and it sayd my PPC G4 platforms not supported...and its info says its a Intel file. I got it from different web browsers and the same thing. Anyway of fixing it so it wil work on a PPC mac?? === Subject: Re: New Mac Connects not Univesal, but Intel only????? Try Version 9.0 from http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=115079&package_id=1 24654 === Subject: Re: HPConnect for Mac When i download it to my Mac G4 PPC, the file info says its Intel only, not a Universal binary. When i double clock it it says my PPC platforms not supported. I used 2 different browsers and the same thing. Anyway of getting it to be a true Universal binary that wil work on a PPC Mac??? === Subject: Re: HPConnect for Mac Try going to http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=115079&package_id=1 24654 And downloading version 9.0. It works on my PPC eMac. As will earlier versions, but not so well. === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption No one said as battery is a constant current device. Quite the opposite. My point is when you have a voltage source, the variable, and what determines battery life, is the current draw. === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption That was added to illustrate that to control current you have one option, vary the voltage. The battery model used in my BSEE classes was as a voltage source with an internal resistance. My point is that shy of having an active device, voltage determines current draw, current is a result, not a cause. Rich === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption Last I checked P=I*E. ** Assuming the current remained the same **, P=I * (1.30 E) === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption Last I checked, if you increase voltage, you also increase current. So P=I*V and I=V/r, put them together and P=(V/r)*V=V^2/r. So if we increase the voltage by 33%, from V=4.5V to V=6V, and let's make R=1 for convenience, we get the following results. P(4.5)=(4.5^2)/1= 20.25 watts. P(6.0)=(6^2)/1 = 36.00 watts. The power consumed has increased by 77.78%, according to the delta% button on my HP-15C. Below it I have my 6S and 6S solar, but they are so cumbersome to use in comparison. I may get a 33s when they are back on the market. I suspect that it is more or less a resistive load, with the resistance being a function of what the operation(s) the calculator is performing. And from the table posted, while turned on, the load does not seem to vary a great deal. Rich === Subject: how to organize var key hi guys, its me again...:) i have been trying to search the forums for nesting the variables or commands that are saved in the VARiable button in my calculator but i have not found any. is there a way to organize them like making directories and sub directories to separate one group from the other? what if i already have 4 pages of menu in the VAR button and it seems like its already cluttered. thank you in advance! elly === Subject: Re: how to organize var key VAR is just reporting the contents of your HOME directory. The easiest way to order this is probably using the FILER. Go into the FILER, push NXT and then the NEW key (F3). You can then create directories, sub directories, etc. Then you can use the MOVE key on the first page of the filer to put things where you'd like. TW === Subject: Re: how to organize var key oh! thank you very much TW... im really a newbie in calculators.. thanx! cheers! elly .1516 I'm located in Vienna (Austria) and have a couple of Klotz-electronis > 1MB cards here. > If anyone is interested, i'll sell themfor 70? incl. shipping within > European Union. > just write me an email Sorry, my news client does not show your price > correctly... was that supposed to be 70 euros? If so, I might be > interested. Hi Raymond i did reply to your private email, but no answer till now. are you still interested, then please write me tiwag dot cb at gmail dot com and yes, the price is 70 eur. brgds -- tiwag >> I'm located in Vienna (Austria) and have a couple of Klotz-electronis >> 1MB cards here. >> If anyone is interested, i'll sell themfor 70? incl. shipping within >> European Union. >> just write me an email >> Sorry, my news client does not show your price >> correctly... was that supposed to be 70 euros? If so, I might be >> interested. > Hi Raymond > i did reply to your private email, but no answer till now. > are you still interested, then please write me > tiwag dot cb at gmail dot com and yes, the price is 70 eur. Sorry about that - the email address that appeared on my posting was invalid. I've sent you an email. === Subject: Re: HP 50G External Power > I am also powering my HP50g with a USB hub. How do I make it so the calc does not auto power off now? use the TOFF variable brgds -- tiwag === Subject: Re: HP 50G External Power i've set my TOF to #3840000h which equals to a power down time of 2hours 120 * 60 * 8192 = #58982400d == #3840000h brgds -- tiwag === Subject: Re: Trouble with connecting HP 50g to PC (connectivity kit) <46c2eff1$1_7@news.bluewin.ch > Hello fellow HP users, > I'm having trouble connecting my HP 50g to my PC and I do not know > why. This is my first time doing so and I would appreciate it if you > guys could lend me a hand. First of all, I downloaded the connectivity > kit from the CD that came along with my calc. I had the connect kit > screen open and then I connected the USB cable to from the PC to the > Calculator and turn my calculator on. My PC immediately signaled that > my calulator had been found. The Found New Hardware Wizard popped up > and at first I tried having it auto-download but then it took to long > the connectivity kit and pressed *both* the Quick connect to > calculator button and the Files -> Connect.. -> Set the Calculator > Button. Before I pressed OK I did the commands that they instructed me > to do: Right shift -> Right Arrow -> Enter and my calc had the waiting > for command... thing on the screen. However, I still couldn't get my > calc to connect. Can someone tell me what the problem is? > wizard to find it, you could direct it to the subdirectory USBDriver > in the install-directory of the connectivity kit (C:Program > filesHewlett-PackardConn4xUSBDriver).- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - worked! I noticed that all of the text and numerical data saved in the calculator can be seen from Notepad. Is there any way I can type words/ math symbols in notepad and then transfer it onto my calculator? === Subject: Re: Trouble with connecting HP 50g to PC (connectivity kit) > worked! I noticed that all of the text and numerical data saved in the > calculator can be seen from Notepad. Is there any way I can type words/ > math symbols in notepad and then transfer it onto my calculator? > very easy, just try it! Take care about binary/text transfer mode and special characters (Tri-Graphs explained here ...and you can even press F1 (on PC-keyboard of course :-) and get some help inside Conn4x about Text Files and more. Hope that helps! mats === Subject: What happens if you erase everything in your HOME directory? I have a lot of units in my HOME directory and I'm wondering what they are. Are they just like variables that you insert into graphs? So if you delete these units, they will still be available in the Right Shift-> Units section right? I don't want to keep any of my old data or any other piece of information that I calculated so which files should I NOT delete? Are there are specific files in your HOME directory that will keep certain things from functioning or is everything in your directory just all of your calculation history? === Subject: Re: What happens if you erase everything in your HOME directory? > I have a lot of units in my HOME directory and I'm wondering what > they are. Are they just like variables that you insert into graphs? So > if you delete these units, they will still be available in the Right > Shift-> Units section right? I don't want to keep any of my old data > or any other piece of information that I calculated so which files > should I NOT delete? Are there are specific files in your HOME > directory that will keep certain things from functioning or is > everything in your directory just all of your calculation history? I experimented with my 50g and added a lot of programs and ran them. That put a lot of units in my HOME directory. if you want to get rid of everything extra and get back to factory condition do a cold restart. Hold ON-F1-F6 then let go of ON === Subject: Re: What happens if you erase everything in your HOME directory? > I have a lot of units in my HOME directory and I'm wondering what > they are. Are they just like variables that you insert into graphs? So > if you delete these units, they will still be available in the Right > Shift-> Units section right? I don't want to keep any of my old data > or any other piece of information that I calculated so which files > should I NOT delete? Are there are specific files in your HOME > directory that will keep certain things from functioning or is > everything in your directory just all of your calculation history? Are you using Prof. Rautenberg's Unitman? If so, and if you created any new types of units, then the definitions of the new units are stored in your HOME directory. (Just for fun, I created a new unit of temperature, called the 'Dave'. The 'Dave' scale goes from absolute zero = 0 to boiling water (100 C) = 100. So the degrees are usefully broad. Basically, room tempurature is 79 degree Dave. But I digress...) I just use Filer6 to hide them, myself. -- Dave Boyd If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P. === Subject: Re: What happens if you erase everything in your HOME directory? Try to read about the ARCHIVE command in the manual. Then delete everything and see what happens. I just did that and my calc is still working. Arnaud === Subject: Re: What happens if you erase everything in your HOME directory? What does the 'Hp 50g User' manual say? HTH Hp 50g User schrieb im Newsbeitrag >I have a lot of units in my HOME directory and I'm wondering what > they are. Are they just like variables that you insert into graphs? So > if you delete these units, they will still be available in the Right > Shift-> Units section right? I don't want to keep any of my old data > or any other piece of information that I calculated so which files > should I NOT delete? Are there are specific files in your HOME > directory that will keep certain things from functioning or is > everything in your directory just all of your calculation history? > === Subject: Re: Batmon question <46c2ec4f$1_1@news.bluewin.ch > Sorry to seem dense, but here goes. I am trying to use the program > BATMON for monitoring battery voltage/health in HP-50G and when I > download the file batmon.hp into the emulator, I cannot get it to > run. I have tried saving it and then eval and also tried to convert > to object. The program has a GCC header I don't understand. Perhaps GCC doesn't work on emulator, ARM isn't emulated neither is the battery :-) > some more knowledgeable HP user can give me explicit instructions on > Scott it from there, not using any of my main memory or flash. Also I did not know that the emulator cannot handle ARM based programs; that's good to know too. I usually test with the emulator before risking the calculator. Scott === Subject: Re: What happened to HP Pascal Project...? <33v3c3thnc2biivlihnhp4hmmfs9uk2cfj@4ax.com> <46c22c38$0$30368$9b4e6d93@newsspool4.arcor-online.net> <13c4qe6d2r5vn91@corp.supernews.com> <6pr4c3d4ivah1mfaq237ov9uhf644gaqjv@4ax.com I`m thinking about what could be an OOL for a calc... Take a look at LUA, already ported to the calculator http://www.lua.org It runs on the calc and it can support basic OO programming. Claudio === Subject: Re: What happened to HP Pascal Project...? hello, > The purpose of my response was to enlighten the original poster as to why > FORTRAN was famous, years ago. Today, sure, plenty of people still use > FORTRAN, but the number is a drop in the bucket compared to those who use > C++. yes, but the difference is that the drop in the bucket that uses FORTRAN KNOWS how to use FORTRAN, wile the people who use C++ usually do not know how to use it! cyrille === Subject: Re: What happened to HP Pascal Project...? > hello, > The purpose of my response was to enlighten the original poster as to why >> FORTRAN was famous, years ago. Today, sure, plenty of people still use >> FORTRAN, but the number is a drop in the bucket compared to those who use >> C++. yes, but the difference is that the drop in the bucket that uses FORTRAN > KNOWS how to use FORTRAN, wile the people who use C++ usually do not know > how to use it! cyrille And, more importantly, Fortran (yes, nowadays it's supposed to be written as Fortran rather than as FORTRAN) programmers generally work on more heavy and important applications. Such as forecasting the weather or the climate, or computing a trajectory for some spacecraft. There aren't that many people who do this kind of stuff, but each one of them is performing a much more important task than e.g. someone writing some game or other entertainment software in C++. Also, Fortran has evolved too. Today's Fortran is quite different from good ol' Fortran-77 or FORTRAN IV. While C-99 got complex numbers, and while complex numbers can be quite conveniently implemented as a C++ class, modern Fortran can perform operations on whole vectors and matrices in a single statement. And if the underlying hardware is capable of parallell computation, the Fortran compiler can generate parallell code directly from those matrix operations much more conveniently than if it would have to parallellize a loop which looped through all elements of the matrix. programming support added: type extension and inheritance, polymorphism, dynamic type allocation, and type-bound procedures. Work is under way for the next Fortran standard: Fortran 2008. As someone appropriately pointed out some time in the 1980's: We don't know what programming language the scientists of the future will use, but we do know that the name of that language will be Fortran. And that statement is still true..... -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/ === Subject: Re: What happened to HP Pascal Project...? > As someone appropriately pointed out some time in the 1980's: We > don't know what programming language the scientists of the future will > use, but we do know that the name of that language will be Fortran. > And that statement is still true..... I'm sure there are plenty of prestigious research institutes using Fortran still, but there are plenty using C++ as well. Heck, lots of research these days is done using tools such as Matlab, which is itself written in C good, although strictly from a programming language perspective it's really kinda scary... although I do have a certain amount of admiration for how they managed to shoe-horn in some OOP abilities without breaking backwards compatibility. ---Joel === Subject: Re: What happened to HP Pascal Project...? > yes, but the difference is that the drop in the bucket that uses FORTRAN > KNOWS how to use FORTRAN, wile the people who use C++ usually do not know > how to use it! Haha... yeah, in many cases you're correct. I've stated on occasion how many resumes I've seen where people put down C++ experience where, looking at examples of their code, they arguably aren't even completely profficient at C, much less the OOP additions in C++. Where I worked in the early-'90s we had some PDP-11's around running FORTRAN PCs. (...and complex arithmetic was rather painful back then...) ---Joel === Subject: Re: HP-17BII+ RPN Mode variable length stack bug or implementation <46c419f1$1_3@news.bluewin.ch I have an 17BII (not the plus) but as far as I can tell the stack works > just as an ordinary old-fashioned four-level stack. I still have a > manual from a 17BII+ which broke, and this manual is full of obviously > non-sensical mistakes (German translated from English by a Chinese). I > would suspect that this is either plain wrong or at least a very quirky > way of describing the functioning of the stack. >> I have a new HP-17BII+ calculator that I am learning about. I also >> have older calculators including in particular a 1983 HP 12c, a >> HP-15c, HP-25c, and others. Part of the below is what I read in the >> manual ,part is what I observed, and part is what I inferred. >> Does anyone know where I can find more or have more information on >> whether the RPN stack in fact works like the below and maybe why? >> I have read on a couple of collection sites that it is a Bug ... but, >> I am wondering if in fact this was intentional since it has not been >> fixed ( i.e., maybe it is supposed to be like a dynamic stack in >> programming)? >> THE HP 17BII+ RPN Mode Stack >> -------------------------------------------- >> In he HP 17BII+ RPN mode ... initially only the permanent x register >> exists. Then as data is entered onto the stack or consumed from the >> stack, the stack size varies. The size varies over a range from 1 to >> 4 levels deep depending upon the amounts of data entered and >> consumed. >> Therefore, at most, the HP 17BII+ stack is composed of one permanent X >> register and three non-permanent registers labeled y,z, and t: >> X receives the calculator line, Status:permanent memory, present >> always, head of the dynamic stack >> Y accumulator, Status: non-permanent, created and destroyed as >> needed >> Z temporary, Status: non-permanent, created and destroyed as needed >> T top, Status: non-permanent, created and destroyed as needed >> Pressing [SHIFT], [CLR DATA] destroys the y, z, and t registers >> resetting the calculator to its initial state of having an x register >> only. >> The above is unlike my HP 12c, HP-15c, HP-25c, and other HP RPN / RPL >> calculators. >> {fdw} > Actually, scratch my RPL comment ... it is like RPL somewhat but, the > stack can only grow to 4 levels not to all of memory. {Fdw} Christoph: is changes RPN operations ... it is something I noticed right away. If you take the time to do the below and view something different then let me know. Also, let me say that I ran out of time to clean all of the language up so if you can look past that I neglected to say ... a little sleepy last night that I now have both models: (1) a 1995, Singapore, HP-17BII and (2) a new HP-17BII+. I also admit that I have had and used the HP-12c since it was new in 1983. The following is how I first noticed a difference. On the 1983 HP 12c an RPN only calculator I observed the following: (1) [f] [REG] resets the x,y,t,z registers to zero. (2) Rolling the stack with [R Down Arrow] after preforming (1) above appears to the viewer to move through the cleared stack in sequential order. Whether it does or not, I don't know. (3) Performing step (1) and then performing a keystroke hitting the number 1 puts the digits 1. in the x register. Rolling the stack with [R Down Arrow] 4 times appears to move me through the stack ending with a 1.00 as expected. (4) Performing a keystroke hitting the number 2 puts the 2. digit in the x register and moves the digits 1.00 to the y register. Rolling the stack with [R Down Arrow] 4 times appears to move me through the stack. I see the following sequence in order: 2. 1.00 0.00 0.00 2.00. The point is here the viewer sees the x,y,z, and t or at least appears to (i.e., what else would the roll down keystroke be for?). Now for the HP-17BII and for the HP-17BII + change steps 1 through 4 to conform to the calculators. I would have expected before having these that test on both would have repeated exactly my experience with the HP-12c and others. On the HP 17BII and the HP 17BII+ perform the following: (1) HP 17BII: [gold shift] [Clear Data] / HP 17BII+: [gold shift] [CLR DATA] (2) Rolling the stack with [gold shift] [R Down Arrow] four times after preforming step (1) above appears to the viewer to move through the cleared stack in sequential order. Whether it does or not, we don't know. (3) Performing step (1) and then performing a keystroke hitting the number 1 puts the digit 1 on the calculator line. Rolling the stack with [gold shift] [R Down Arrow] 4 times appears to enter the digit 1 into the x register and does not appear to move me through the stack. All I see is 1 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 when I might expect to see 1. 0.00 0.00 0.00 1.00 Further, when I perform an [x<->y] exchange I view a zero from the y register but, that roll down HP-17BII+ implementation that rolling through the stack does not occur ... all one really sees is the data in the x register viewed over and over. (4) Next beginning with 1.00 in the x register I perform a keystroke placing the number 2 puts on the calculator line. Rolling the stack with [R Down Arrow] 4 times appears to enter the digit 2.00 into the x register and moves the digit 1 to the y register. Rolling the stack with [R Down Arrow] 4 times appears to enter the digits 2.00 into the x register and moves the digits 1.00 into the y register. Rolling the stack does not appear to move me through a complete stack on moves me through the x and y registers. All I see is 2 1.00 2.00 1.00 2.00 when I expect to see 2. 1.00 0.00 0.00 2.00. So at best here we are only rolling the x and y registers and are not getting a view of the y and t registers ... if they even exist! Further, when I perform an [x<->y] exchange I view the digit 1 from the y register. So one might infer that for the HP-17BII/HP-17BII+ implementation that rolling through a complete stack does not occur ... all you really see is the data in the x register and y register viewed over and over (i.e, the first two elements of a dynamic stack?). So, at least on my equipment, the HP-12c and the HP-17BII/HP-17BII+ perform differently when going through the steps above. I am not sure that plain wrong or quirky would apply here ... but might say that they do test different than say the HP-12c. The creation/destruction mechanism described in the first post was a guess only ... I would imagine only the firmware developers know for sure. I was really curious as to whether this was a feature from the new HP ... I liked the old one better but, we make do with what we have. Frank === Subject: Re: HP-17BII+ RPN Mode variable length stack bug or implementation hello, the HP17BII IS indeed as started by the first poster a RPL calculator that EMULATES a RPN calcualtor, and does have an inifinte stack and creates Y, Z, T registers as needed in the RPL stack..... however the HP17BII+ was completly recreated in C and is not a RPL calculator behind and has permanetly allocated X, Y, Z and T registers. cyrille >I have an 17BII (not the plus) but as far as I can tell the stack works >just as an ordinary old-fashioned four-level stack. I still have a manual >from a 17BII+ which broke, and this manual is full of obviously >non-sensical mistakes (German translated from English by a Chinese). I >would suspect that this is either plain wrong or at least a very quirky way >of describing the functioning of the stack. >> I have a new HP-17BII+ calculator that I am learning about. I also > have older calculators including in particular a 1983 HP 12c, a > HP-15c, HP-25c, and others. Part of the below is what I read in the > manual ,part is what I observed, and part is what I inferred. >> Does anyone know where I can find more or have more information on > whether the RPN stack in fact works like the below and maybe why? >> I have read on a couple of collection sites that it is a Bug ... but, > I am wondering if in fact this was intentional since it has not been > fixed ( i.e., maybe it is supposed to be like a dynamic stack in > programming)? >> THE HP 17BII+ RPN Mode Stack > -------------------------------------------- > In he HP 17BII+ RPN mode ... initially only the permanent x register > exists. Then as data is entered onto the stack or consumed from th