.1523 === Subject: Just got an HP-35s! Hello all. This is my first time posting here. I just got an HP 35s. My first HP was a 49g+ (the keyboard sucks), and I've only occasionally played with 12cs, so I don't really know too much about how amazingly well built the older calculators were. Anyway, the 35s is, as far as I can tell, awesome. Yes, it does have the cosine bug. I do have a question about that... I bought the calculator knowing about it; I want to email HP asking them if they've fixed it (and suggesting that they really should), and asking if I'll be able to exchange my calculator for a new one if they do. However, I can't email them about the 35s -- it isn't on the list of products for email support (nor is the 33s, oddly enough). Any ideas? And would anyone happen to know what HP would let me do if they came out with a new revision? Or if they would even bother doing a new revision these days? -- J.P. HP 49g+ and HP 35s owner === Subject: Re: Just got an HP-35s! > Anyway, the 35s is, as far as I can tell, awesome. Yes, it does have the > cosine bug. It also evaluates some expressions incorrectly (as did the 33s), and no one's quite sure exactly when it happens yet. It also can get into a mode while running a program that ignores the run/stop key, so if your program inadvertently enters an endless loop you're forced to reset the machine to recover, losing the entire contents of its memory. This is now well-enough understood that it can be avoided, though. (More about all this is on the hpmuseum.org forum.) It is still a pretty nice machine; a definite improvement and a sign that HP is getting back to having a solid vision of what a good calculator is. > And would anyone happen to know what HP would let me do if they came out > with a new revision? Or if they would even bother doing a new revision > these days? I'm curious to know as well -- the bugs in the 35s are as bad as those in, e.g., the original ROM revision of the 48SX, and HP was willing to swap units if you wanted. (But was a totally different HP -- the Corvallis division, which now does cameras and printers, but not calculators.) ---Joel === Subject: Re: Just got an HP-35s! reply-type=response Importance: Normal > And would anyone happen to know what HP would let me do if they came out > with a new revision? Or if they would even bother doing a new revision > these days? I don't know if HP would bother but there's a $20.00 Wal*Mart calculator that has had several revisions. It's a fascinating story (although the fact that I play a large role in it has nothing to do with that!) and the author, Mike Sebastian, has created a good read. If you're interested, it's called The Great Durabrand Mystery and you can find it at: http://www.rskey.org/~mwsebastian/reviews/durabrand_versions.htm Tom Lake === Subject: Re: Just got an HP-35s! > I don't know if HP would bother but there's a $20.00 Wal*Mart calculator > that has had several revisions. It's a fascinating story (although the > fact that I play a large role in it has nothing to do with that!) and the > author, > Mike Sebastian, has created a good read. If you're interested, it's called > The Great Durabrand Mystery and you can find it at: http://www.rskey.org/~mwsebastian/reviews/durabrand_versions.htm The above story is about a product whose innards, as well as some non-obvious functionality, undergo significant change, yet it is marketed as being the same product, same model, etc. This is very common practice -- HP's own 12C continued to appear in a package looking just like the original, yet it was not identical, perhaps even affecting some of its computational results (and bugs); the HP49G+ had at least three different generations, greatly differing in keyboard quality, which HP never labeled as different, and other models seem also to be undergoing mysterious re-issuances, are they not? I once purchased (from Wal-Mart) a CyberHome DVD player which I found inferior; then I purchased the same unit from another Wal-Mart which appeared externally identical, yet it was functionally different in some areas, including the fact that it could now be made region-free (with the help of instructions found from an internet search); quite the same for various identical models of other electronic items, all churned out by somewhat anonymous factories, to supply different production runs for different retail outlets, who apparently switch OEMs at the drop of a hat (or price), and where any one OEM is also just as inclined to switch its own parts, its suppliers, or change its internal design, so long as the final product looks more or less the same. My old HP6735 Pavilion desktop computer was also manufactured with two completely different motherboards (mine is the Korean Trigem Cognac version), but no external differences. When more memory was added, it invariably produced a BSOD when starting up Windows 2000, yet HP's web site refused to admit the existence of a vital BIOS update to correct this, until I lied to it, and said I was using Windows XP instead. So what else is new? -[ ]- === Subject: Re: News Group Message Help > Using Outlook Express, when I want to reply to a message > I have three options: o Reply to Sender > o Reply to All > o Reply to Group Which of the above should I use? > Jim Reply to those you seek to reach. i.e. You wish to reach the group. You reply to the group. Homework, finish this exercise. === Subject: Does HP Monitor this group? I just received (October 20) a newsgram from HP! In it, HP lists all HP products that they think I own. The list includes an HP 48g+ graphing calculator. I do not own this device. On October 13 I replied to a message to this group concerning the defective HP 49g+ graphing calculator. No reply from the group as to who specifically at HP I should write to. So my position remains that I will never buy another HP product of any kind. Poor products and terrible support. Is it possible that HP is using this newsgroup to harvest prospects to send their newsgrams to. Instead, why not replace the defective product, or at least, ignore the problem. But to draw attention in the hopes of marketing only makes matters worse. HP claims that their Award-winning HP service & support includes: È Software & Driver Downloads È Support & Troubleshooting È Chat Support for HP Products È Email Support in as fast as 1 hour They list as contact information: Call : 1-888-917-8097 Click : www.hpshopping.com Visit : Over 15,000 retail locations So I ask the group once more: Does HP really want to help me, or is the concern to market more product? === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? > I just received (October 20) a newsgram from HP! In it, HP lists all HP > products that they think I own. The list includes an HP 48g+ graphing > calculator. I do not own this device. On October 13 I replied to a message to this > group concerning the defective HP 49g+ graphing calculator. No reply > from the group as to who specifically at HP I should write to. So my > position remains that I will never buy another HP product of any kind. > Poor products and terrible support. Is it possible that HP is using this newsgroup to harvest prospects to > send their newsgrams to. Instead, why not replace the defective product, > or at least, ignore the problem. But to draw attention in the hopes of > marketing only makes matters worse. HP claims that their Award-winning HP service & support includes: > È Software & Driver Downloads > È Support & Troubleshooting > È Chat Support for HP Products > È Email Support in as fast as 1 hour They list as contact information: Call : 1-888-917-8097 > Click : www.hpshopping.com > Visit : Over 15,000 retail locations So I ask the group once more: Does HP really want to help me, or is the concern to market more product? It seems to me: Has anyone else received eeps like this...??? If Not-- Then maybe John is being targeted by a reasonably sophisticated supercriminal organization that has left bonifide contact information that is 'intercepted' at his computer terminal, or telephone and redirected their operatives... At--- The CIA, Russian Intelligence, Illuminatii Special Projects, Vatican Operations or The Reptilians. Beware John, Someone is on to your devious plots and your time is soon to be truncated. === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? On Oct 22, 2:18 pm, TranslucentAmoebae I just received (October 20) a newsgram from HP! In it, HP lists all HP > products that they think I own. The list includes an HP 48g+ graphing > calculator. > I do not own this device. On October 13 I replied to a message to this > group concerning the defective HP 49g+ graphing calculator. No reply > from the group as to who specifically at HP I should write to. So my > position remains that I will never buy another HP product of any kind. > Poor products and terrible support. > Is it possible that HP is using this newsgroup to harvest prospects to > send their newsgrams to. Instead, why not replace the defective product, > or at least, ignore the problem. But to draw attention in the hopes of > marketing only makes matters worse. > HP claims that their Award-winning HP service & support includes: > ? Software & Driver Downloads > ? Support & Troubleshooting > ? Chat Support for HP Products > ? Email Support in as fast as 1 hour > They list as contact information: > Call : 1-888-917-8097 > Click : www.hpshopping.com > Visit : Over 15,000 retail locations > So I ask the group once more: > Does HP really want to help me, or is the concern to market more product? It seems to me: > Has anyone else received eeps like this...??? > If Not-- Then maybe John is being targeted by a reasonably > sophisticated supercriminal organization that has left bonifide > contact information that is 'intercepted' at his computer terminal, or > telephone and redirected their operatives... > At--- The CIA, Russian Intelligence, Illuminatii Special Projects, > Vatican Operations or The Reptilians. Beware John, Someone is on to your devious plots and your time is soon > to be truncated.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You cannot skip your meds. Please, it is dangerous. Go back and play with your iMac, but first, take your meds. This is important for you. === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? I do not own this device. On October 13 I replied to a message to this > group concerning the defective HP 49g+ graphing calculator. No reply > from the group as to who specifically at HP I should write to. So my > position remains that I will never buy another HP product of any kind. > Poor products and terrible support. I don't know about the newsgram you got, but are you saying that your opinion on HP support is based on the lack of help you got from this newsgroup? This is Usenet, not the HP helpdesk. If you want HP service, use their customer contact number on the documentation that came with the calculator, or go to their website and just look it up. And, while you are at it, maybe read up on what Usenet is. > Is it possible that HP is using this newsgroup to harvest prospects to > send their newsgrams to. Instead, why not replace the defective product, I have never received anything from HP, and I'm using a valid email address. > or at least, ignore the problem. But to draw attention in the hopes of > marketing only makes matters worse. Some guy had just posted about how his HP 49G+ with a faulty keyboard was getting replaced with no issues at all from customer support. So I ask the group once more: Does HP really want to help me, or is the concern to market more product? Have you actually contacted them? - Kurt === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? >> I do not own this device. On October 13 I replied to a message to this >> group concerning the defective HP 49g+ graphing calculator. No reply >> from the group as to who specifically at HP I should write to. So my >> position remains that I will never buy another HP product of any kind. >> Poor products and terrible support. I don't know about the newsgram you got, but are you saying that your > opinion on HP support is based on the lack of help you got from this > newsgroup? This is Usenet, not the HP helpdesk. If you want HP service, > use their customer contact number on the documentation that came with the > calculator, or go to their website and just look it up. And, while you are > at it, maybe read up on what Usenet is. > Is it possible that HP is using this newsgroup to harvest prospects to >> send their newsgrams to. Instead, why not replace the defective product, I have never received anything from HP, and I'm using a valid email > address. > or at least, ignore the problem. But to draw attention in the hopes of >> marketing only makes matters worse. Some guy had just posted about how his HP 49G+ with a faulty keyboard > was getting replaced with no issues at all from customer support. > So I ask the group once more: >> Does HP really want to help me, or is the concern to market more product? Have you actually contacted them? - Kurt Looking for a unique contact. There are thousands in the organization. I need one name. Trying to expedite the process. === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? Looking for a unique contact. There are thousands in the organization. I > need one name. Trying to expedite the process. Then you are looking in the wrong place. This is just Usenet. I'm guessing that if you are out of the warranty, then you are not going to get a free replacement/repair. I wouldn't expect any company to fix something on their own dime once the warranty has expired, although it sometimes happens. - Kurt === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? > I wouldn't expect any company to fix something on their own dime > once the warranty has expired, although it sometimes happens. The old HP did -- they replaced my out-of-warranty HP34C which had the keyboard failure that was endemic to that entire series, and cases have been reported here where out-of-warranty HP49G+ (another keyboard disaster story) were replaced with 50G, perhaps after some patience to go through escalation. I do not know whether HP's profit margins on older series exceeded modern levels -- when premium prices are paid, then there is more leeway to give premium support. One of the hidden costs of purchasing cheapest possible goods is that they won't come with as many extras, including support. Repeating some quotes: It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the things it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot... it cannot be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for the something better. There is hardly anything in the world that some men cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. John Ruskin (1819-1900) Gresham's Law http://paws.wcu.edu/mulligan/www/gresham.html There is nothing new under the sun, encompassing a much broader range of human activity: The course our city runs is the same towards men and money. She has true and worthy sons. She has fine new gold and ancient silver, coins untouched with alloys, each well minted, tested each and ringing clear. Yet we never use them! Others pass from hand to hand, sorry brass just struck last week and branded with a wretched brand. So with men we know for upright, blameless lives and noble names. These we spurn for men of brass. [Aristophanes The Frogs 405 B.C.] -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? <13hnu63ro138b@corp.supernews.com> <13ho5g9g7ap0e49@corp.supernews.com > Looking for a unique contact. There are thousands in the organization. I > need one name. Trying to expedite the process. Then you are looking in the wrong place. This is just Usenet. I'm guessing > that if you are out of the warranty, then you are not going to get a free > replacement/repair. I wouldn't expect any company to fix something on their > own dime once the warranty has expired, although it sometimes happens. - Kurt You are not following along. Yes, this is usenet. I know that to be true. Saying it over and over again is not necessary. I get it. Yes it is out of warranty. Some here have had up to six replacements. I screwed up. I didn't complain when I should and now I am out of luck. The product should be recalled as it is a defective product. I don't want to have to keep saying this over and over again. Please accept this opinion. It is not necessary to badger the witness. Recently there was a thread about others who had the same problem. They mentioned that they had called and written to HP and received satisfaction on this issue. I have asked who they called or corresponded with. No reply. I am not making up the bit about the newsgram. OTOH, I am not flattered by the offer to buy more from HP as I have stated this is not going to happen any time soon becuase of my experiences with their products and lack of support. === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? <13hnu63ro138b@corp.supernews.com> <13ho5g9g7ap0e49@corp.supernews.com > Looking for a unique contact. There are thousands in the organization. I > need one name. Trying to expedite the process. > Then you are looking in the wrong place. This is just Usenet. I'm guessing > that if you are out of the warranty, then you are not going to get a free > replacement/repair. I wouldn't expect any company to fix something on their > own dime once the warranty has expired, although it sometimes happens. > - Kurt You are not following along. Yes, this is usenet. I know that to be > true. Saying it over and over again is not necessary. I get it. Yes it is out of warranty. Some here have had up to six replacements. > I screwed up. I didn't complain when I should and now I am out of > luck. The product should be recalled as it is a defective product. I > don't want to have to keep saying this over and over again. Please > accept this opinion. It is not necessary to badger the witness. Recently there was a thread about others who had the same problem. > They mentioned that they had called and written to HP and received > satisfaction on this issue. I have asked who they called or > corresponded with. No reply. I am not making up the bit about the newsgram. OTOH, I am not > flattered by the offer to buy more from HP as I have stated this is > not going to happen any time soon becuase of my experiences with their > products and lack of support. Personally, when I had a problem with my damaged HP calculator, I: - went to HP's Canadian website (www.hp.ca), - clicked the Contact HP link on the bottom of the home page - clicked the Call HP: Technical support after you buy link - Under Technical Support - HP and Compaq products - Warranty and Out of Warranty, I saw the telephone number 1-800-HP-INVENT. Through the automated system, I got in contact with an operator who forwarded my call to calculator support. The second operator arranged to charge me what was apparently a standard replacement fee (approximately half the cost of the original calculator) and shipped me a replacement unit. My understanding is that this is the same number for HP in the USA as well. None of the steps I took in this matter were in any way extraordinary nor did they require any special insider knowledge of HP's operations. So I assume you've probably already tried this. What response did you get? === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? <13hnu63ro138b@corp.supernews.com> <13ho5g9g7ap0e49@corp.supernews.com > Looking for a unique contact. There are thousands in the organization. I > need one name. Trying to expedite the process. > Then you are looking in the wrong place. This is just Usenet. I'm guessing > that if you are out of the warranty, then you are not going to get a free > replacement/repair. I wouldn't expect any company to fix something on their > own dime once the warranty has expired, although it sometimes happens. > - Kurt > You are not following along. Yes, this is usenet. I know that to be > true. Saying it over and over again is not necessary. I get it. > Yes it is out of warranty. Some here have had up to six replacements. > I screwed up. I didn't complain when I should and now I am out of > luck. The product should be recalled as it is a defective product. I > don't want to have to keep saying this over and over again. Please > accept this opinion. It is not necessary to badger the witness. > Recently there was a thread about others who had the same problem. > They mentioned that they had called and written to HP and received > satisfaction on this issue. I have asked who they called or > corresponded with. No reply. > I am not making up the bit about the newsgram. OTOH, I am not > flattered by the offer to buy more from HP as I have stated this is > not going to happen any time soon becuase of my experiences with their > products and lack of support. Personally, when I had a problem with my damaged HP calculator, I: > - went to HP's Canadian website (www.hp.ca), > - clicked the Contact HP link on the bottom of the home page > - clicked the Call HP: Technical support after you buy link > - Under Technical Support - HP and Compaq products - Warranty and Out > of Warranty, I saw the telephone number 1-800-HP-INVENT. Through the automated system, I got in contact with an operator who > forwarded my call to calculator support. The second operator arranged > to charge me what was apparently a standard replacement fee > (approximately half the cost of the original calculator) and shipped > me a replacement unit. My understanding is that this is the same number for HP in the USA as > well. None of the steps I took in this matter were in any way extraordinary > nor did they require any special insider knowledge of HP's > operations. So I assume you've probably already tried this. What > response did you get?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - It is always bad to assume because sometimes this will produce unexpected results. Just moments ago, I called the number for support in my country (US). They can replace warranty units, or slightly over warranty. For out of warranty, they referred me to HP Corporate Office at 650-857-1501. However, I was told not to call here yet, as it is 5:30 that I call later after they have found their way to the office. If I am offered a 50% discount on a working model in exchange for the defective one, I'll have to think about it. Tough call since the 50g+ offers no new features other than that it is functional over the 49g+. I have to stop wasting money. === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? >~kurt wrot Looking for a unique contact. There are thousands in the organization. I >need one name. Trying to expedite the process. Unless your girlfiriend or your uncle work there, you will never get such unique contact. Call them, they will open the case and give you ticket number. If direct technical rep cannot solve the problem on his level, he will upgrade to higher level. But having the ticket number is critical. I don't know any tech support organization that would publish unique numbers of their staff. A.L. === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? <13hnu63ro138b@corp.supernews.com> need one name. Trying to expedite the process. If they wanted you to do that, they'd have put that information in the manual. As it is, they want you to go through the same steps as anyone else. Complaining over and over on here, rather than calling them is probably not the fastest way to get things done. -Jonathan === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? how do you know it was from hp, it could have been a fishing email, people looking to either hack your computer, or get get personal details like your credit card no. please remember this is an open group, that meaning that any fool with a computer and internet can access this group and harvest your email. it does not matter where they are from, they could be from nigeria, russia, iran or iraq. not everyone has our level or intelligence, or for that matter morals. i am still looking for the person who has wormed my bios, and when i find them i will crush them. michael carey >I just received (October 20) a newsgram from HP! In it, HP lists all HP >products that they think I own. The list includes an HP 48g+ graphing >calculator. I do not own this device. On October 13 I replied to a message to this > group concerning the defective HP 49g+ graphing calculator. No reply from > the group as to who specifically at HP I should write to. So my position > remains that I will never buy another HP product of any kind. Poor > products and terrible support. Is it possible that HP is using this newsgroup to harvest prospects to > send their newsgrams to. Instead, why not replace the defective product, > or at least, ignore the problem. But to draw attention in the hopes of > marketing only makes matters worse. HP claims that their Award-winning HP service & support includes: > È Software & Driver Downloads > È Support & Troubleshooting > È Chat Support for HP Products > È Email Support in as fast as 1 hour They list as contact information: Call : 1-888-917-8097 > Click : www.hpshopping.com > Visit : Over 15,000 retail locations So I ask the group once more: Does HP really want to help me, or is the concern to market more product? > === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? > how do you know it was from hp, it could have been a fishing email, people > looking to either hack your computer, or get get personal details like your > credit card no. > please remember this is an open group, that meaning that any fool with a > computer and internet can access this group and harvest your email. > it does not matter where they are from, they could be from nigeria, russia, > iran or iraq. > not everyone has our level or intelligence, or for that matter morals. i am still looking for the person who has wormed my bios, and when i find > them i will crush them. michael carey > I just received (October 20) a newsgram from HP! In it, HP lists all HP >> products that they think I own. The list includes an HP 48g+ graphing >> calculator. >> I do not own this device. On October 13 I replied to a message to this >> group concerning the defective HP 49g+ graphing calculator. No reply from >> the group as to who specifically at HP I should write to. So my position >> remains that I will never buy another HP product of any kind. Poor >> products and terrible support. >> Is it possible that HP is using this newsgroup to harvest prospects to >> send their newsgrams to. Instead, why not replace the defective product, >> or at least, ignore the problem. But to draw attention in the hopes of >> marketing only makes matters worse. >> HP claims that their Award-winning HP service & support includes: >> È Software & Driver Downloads >> È Support & Troubleshooting >> È Chat Support for HP Products >> È Email Support in as fast as 1 hour >> They list as contact information: >> Call : 1-888-917-8097 >> Click : www.hpshopping.com >> Visit : Over 15,000 retail locations >> So I ask the group once more: >> Does HP really want to help me, or is the concern to market more product? They (HP) provide a link to verify that the source is genuine, but on the pc I am using I can't launch Firefox from Thunderbird without closing Thunderbird first. I'll try another PC tomorrow. I have to go watch a baseball game now. Still looking for a phone number or snail mail address at HP to contact for my out of warranty defective product inquiry. If anyone has it, please reply. === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? run a good virus scan and check you microsoft dll's mine are corrupted atm. goes to show how secure ms is michael carey >> how do you know it was from hp, it could have been a fishing email, >> people looking to either hack your computer, or get get personal details >> like your credit card no. >> please remember this is an open group, that meaning that any fool with a >> computer and internet can access this group and harvest your email. >> it does not matter where they are from, they could be from nigeria, >> russia, iran or iraq. >> not everyone has our level or intelligence, or for that matter morals. >> i am still looking for the person who has wormed my bios, and when i find >> them i will crush them. >> michael carey > I just received (October 20) a newsgram from HP! In it, HP lists all HP > products that they think I own. The list includes an HP 48g+ graphing > calculator. >> I do not own this device. On October 13 I replied to a message to this > group concerning the defective HP 49g+ graphing calculator. No reply > from the group as to who specifically at HP I should write to. So my > position remains that I will never buy another HP product of any kind. > Poor products and terrible support. >> Is it possible that HP is using this newsgroup to harvest prospects to > send their newsgrams to. Instead, why not replace the defective product, > or at least, ignore the problem. But to draw attention in the hopes of > marketing only makes matters worse. >> HP claims that their Award-winning HP service & support includes: > È Software & Driver Downloads > È Support & Troubleshooting > È Chat Support for HP Products > È Email Support in as fast as 1 hour >> They list as contact information: >> Call : 1-888-917-8097 > Click : www.hpshopping.com > Visit : Over 15,000 retail locations >> So I ask the group once more: >> Does HP really want to help me, or is the concern to market more > product? >> They (HP) provide a link to verify that the source is genuine, but on the > pc I am using I can't launch Firefox from Thunderbird without closing > Thunderbird first. I'll try another PC tomorrow. I have to go watch a > baseball game now. Still looking for a phone number or snail mail address at HP to contact > for my out of warranty defective product inquiry. If anyone has it, > please reply. === Subject: Re: Does HP Monitor this group? reply-type=response > run a good virus scan and check you microsoft dll's > mine are corrupted atm. > goes to show how secure ms is Use Vista: critical system files are protected (and there are many more security mechanisms in place like randomizing the load addresses or execution in less privileged mode). MS === Subject: Re: Can I get back my code? (HPGCC Related) On 2007-10-22 02:03:45 +1000, ilkorur@gmail.com said: > I know that I am in hopeless situation and I know that it may not be > possible but I just have to ask, in order to be sure. During back-up, I accidently deleted my C code, which I was working on > for some time, but I still have my *.hp, *.o and *.bin files. Is there > a way to obtain the C code from these 3 files? (I hope you don't > misunderstand me, the code is mine and my name is displayed when you > run the code from HP 49G+ or 50G machines) Did you compile the object code with debugging ? (did you use -g a an option with gcc?) If yes, then you can, with a bit or work go back to your original source code. if not, you can always use the ARM desassembler ... but this isnt as simple > -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: Can I get back my code? (HPGCC Related) brain fart eh michael carey > On 2007-10-22 02:03:45 +1000, ilkorur@gmail.com said: >> I know that I am in hopeless situation and I know that it may not be >> possible but I just have to ask, in order to be sure. >> During back-up, I accidently deleted my C code, which I was working on >> for some time, but I still have my *.hp, *.o and *.bin files. Is there >> a way to obtain the C code from these 3 files? (I hope you don't >> misunderstand me, the code is mine and my name is displayed when you >> run the code from HP 49G+ or 50G machines) Did you compile the object code with debugging ? (did you use -g a an > option with gcc?) > If yes, then you can, with a bit or work go back to your original source > code. if not, you can always use the ARM desassembler ... but this isnt as > simple > -- > They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, > deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) > === Subject: Re: Can I get back my code? (HPGCC Related) On 2007-10-22 11:12:39 +1000, Michael said: > brain fart eh michael carey ?? === Subject: Re: Can I get back my code? (HPGCC Related) JYA is a lot optimistic about it although there are some major IFs in it :-) Most likely you will NOT be able to get to you'r source, you may get to something what may work like, but it won't look like your source. In fact may be even unrecognisable to you. Here's why: -if C compiler optimises your code (your code is compiled and optimised/changed prior or after it's compiled to ARM machine instructions) this reduces your chance A LOT even if it doesn't optimise you may get the source code which will not contain : -variable names -function names -header files -your text alignments and identation (layout of your code) This means: prity much unreconisable, you would have to read it all over like it's somone elses work to figure out what is what (may turn out to be a lot harder than it seams now) even if your code does include debug information don't expect it to be a source file :-) -debug information is most likely only a refference (line number) to *your* original source file, which you say is lost :-( you *will be able* to get ARM disassembly, but if you're not familiar with it it will not help you at all, since it will not be your source code for sure :-) in best case you may get something usable if you have few lines of code (but then, why bother for few lines ?) On the other hand, lets assume that your code is *not realy* revolutionary and you *are* able to re-write it, even make it better on second approach. Stop waisting your time, roll up your sleeves and re-do the thing all over again :-) In the end you will come up with improvements or enhancements which will make your effort worthwhile. (i tend to swear and curse (S&C) a lot, during such process *not a recommendation though* :-) -- manjo http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire | 49G+ | ROM 2.09 | hw serial:CN40213309 | sw serial:CN40701165 | === Subject: Re: Some numbers on Battery Life <471b053a$0$26660$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <471b39a0$1_1@news.bluewin.ch> <471b5ad9$0$21418$426a74cc@news.free.fr > surprise, surprise! I think Daniel was referring to this findings: > What > do you say now? ;-) That any analysis would state that the 50g has a power consumption > about 50% more than the 49g+ means that there are a problem in the > machine that as tested. > The 50g is pretty much identical to the 49g+ from a hardware point of view . -- > They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, > deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) I concour, although power consumption is higher on the 50g than its predecessors, battery packs come in 4 nowadays ;-) === Subject: Re: Some numbers on Battery Life > although power consumption is higher on the 50g than > its predecessors, battery packs come in 4 nowadays ;-) Some also come in 12 and 24, which is 33% more sets of 3 than sets of 4 :) -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Some numbers on Battery Life <471b053a$0$26660$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <471b39a0$1_1@news.bluewin.ch> <471b5ad9$0$21418$426a74cc@news.free.fr> although power consumption is higher on the 50g than > its predecessors, battery packs come in 4 nowadays ;-) Some also come in 12 and 24, > which is 33% more sets of 3 than sets of 4 :) -[ ]- it's still less than $1 per battery :) === Subject: Re: Some numbers on Battery Life > Yesterday have to change my first set of batteries on my new HP50G > after 85 days of normal use, this mean, is 6.25% more battery life > per unit on HP50G than the battery life on HP49G+. (Sad to say this is just one lecture and I have 20 on the HP49g+, > statistically has no difference at 95% confidence). The only other thing I change was to run must of programs from the SD > card (now a 2 GB one) rather than read them from the flash memory, > according to some news on this group takes less energy to acces the SD > rather than the Flash Menory) So now I don«t know if the better performance is because of the new > model or the way I ran the applications. Hmmmm..... I need to do more tests to know (looking at the variation > on the 49 I will need 10 battery changes or 30 months to have a > significant result). Any way its a good new to know that the HP50G tend to have more > battery life than the HP49G+. Has anyone tryed to know if HP50G really has better battery life than > HP49G+? Not important issue, just curiousity .... Daniel although the 50g has more power consumption than it's predecessors, battery packs come in 4 nowadays... Just in case anyone from HP reads this and can convince the company to try something risky... The subject says it all. Without question, I (and others like me) would go through at least two per year by keeping one in my shirt pocket and letting it fall out! I also believe the younger computer users in school would be interested in such a device. A solar model would be very cool! If nothing else, it would be different and might just become a fad! > Just in case anyone from HP reads this and can convince the company to try > something risky... The subject says it all. Without question, I (and > others like me) would go through at least two per year by keeping one in my > shirt pocket and letting it fall out! I also believe the younger computer > users in school would be interested in such a device. A solar model would > be very cool! If nothing else, it would be different and might just become > a fad! > Stan I totally agree with you. It can be just like HP6S, which was algebraic model though. HP32S is still too heavy for field work. So I am using pocket algebraic calculator of CASIO fx-260 in outdoor (other than my office), which is same range of HP6S. Frankly speaking, 90% of my engineering work using calculator can be covered by such a basic model. Kenji Nagahama, Ph.D., P.E. Yokohama, Japan > you don't need to install all cygwin to get the compiler working, just > download cygwin's dll and place it in you c:windowssystem32 folder X Exactly what dll? It has quite a lot of them... (this will surely free some space on my crowded HD) [Fr.8fre-Pierre] === Subject: Re: Gcc > you don't need to install all cygwin to get the compiler working, just > download cygwin's dll and place it in you c:windowssystem32 folder > X > Exactly what dll? > It has quite a lot of them... > (this will surely free some space on my crowded HD) > [Fr.8fre-Pierre] Guessing: cygwin1.dll === > Hi Jake! Unfortunatelyy it is very expansive to other people from outside of USA > participate of the conference. If this dream come true, I think that it will be the first time a > conference of HP users should be transmited live via web. > Carlos Hi! Broadband already permits some live webcam... > How about webcam images from the conference? > I think it is possible... A suggestion only.:-) Best regrds, Carlos This would require a volunteer with the equipment (i.e. camera, > computer, etc.) and knowhow and willingness to operate them throughout > the conference who could make it happen, along with a broadband > connection in the hotel. What > do you suspect the hotel would charge us for a feed for 12 hours per > day over two days? A few hundred bucks? Then it would be a question of > how > that cost would be covered. Should we split it among attendees who > would not need the feed? That doesn't seem to make sense. Since these > conferences are > arranged completely by volunteers and the intent is to cover the > costs completely by attendance fees, one would not wish to scare > people away due to exorbitantly high registration cost. Can I assume > that you are aware that every one of these events has been videotaped, > going back to 1986 and the same will be done for this one? Tape copies > (or DVDs) of all those events are always available. Check > http://www.pahhc.org/video.htm on the web. Jake Schwartz for > the conference - it's the Radisson Hotel San Jose Airport in San Jose, > CA. > details. > It should be an enjoyable and interesting time, as the conferences > always > have been since their inception in 1979. We have confirmed that > representatives from HP will be there to discuss calculator issues and > field our questions. Hope to see you at the conference.... Jake Schwartz That would be totally awesome. I went to the HHC Conference last year and enjoyed it. I look forward to the Quonos. === Subject: Re: William Wickes, Larken Publications ? That is quite sad; it would be nice if he would publish or make available whatever he may have complete of the 'Part II'. His insight into the design and usage of these machines is truly priceless!! Tom > Are any of the HP48 books by Wickes still available? Sometimes they show up on eBay. Is Larken Publications still in existence? I very much doubt it. As I understand it, Larken is formed from > the first parts of his two children's names, Lara and Ken maybe? > Anyway, it wasn't a big publishing house; I guess that it > published his books only. He never did publish the planned Part II > of HP 48 Insights HP 48G/GX Edition; maybe it wasn't profitable > enough, or maybe he just didn't need the extra money. I believe > that he transferred to a different division of HP when the > calculator division was moved from Corvallis to Singapore, so > maybe it was a lack of enthusiasm for continuing his project. > Welcome === Subject: Re: Qonos- A Future Failure? yes i am aware of how complex the ARM chip realy is: and i am aware that it's not much about 920T core it is all the additional blocks of hardware around it: LCD controller, DMA, Timers etc... BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+ they MUST go that way, because all software which will be written for ARM environment of 49G+ will not work on Qonos. In fact you would buy the latest product of calc. industry, jet have the product which is one generation behind, despite the fact that it might have superior hardware. Powerfull ARM software is to come, and hit hard. Games, addons, hardware-oriented software like drivers for USB hardware etc even alternative ROM's. The analog inputs and outputs they all hope for in Qonos can be made as a little USB dongle, with right software -it will work greay, you may even plug a USB 5.1 Sound Blaster to it :-) don't laugh -EVERYTHING is possible !!! about display: in my opinion the whole idea of having an emulator is to be compatible with real-life unit, use of larger display in qonos, will be very nice and a thing a thing to be welcome, BUT it WON'T be compatible. A good solution would be: introducing a FLAG (or mode setting) which would determine how would you like to use the display. in a comatible or incompatible manner, but this will actualy be a splitting point. There will be software for big screen and software for small screen. Once again -you're absolutely right (about ROM copyright) -they may hit the wall when HP and TI realizes that this unit actualy motivates people to copy their ROM and break the copyright law. manjo > Yes, i agree cracking it will be as much fun, but > let's assume ARM9 will be emulated and Saturn up on it, > > it will all work nicely if they go for 100% emulation > currently Saturn is amulated in the 49G+ (as we all know) but > screen updates, beeper and similar features are not updasted real time Perhaps most of these are best considered to be bugs? > -the emulation is not 100% result: we have functional units, but we lost > some features based on fast hardware programming switching, tweaking and so > on :) I'm not at all sure that 100% emulation was intended to be any > deeper than UserRPL, if even that. Note that SysRPL entry points > were moved and new (or changed) UserRPL and SysRPL commands were > added in each model change from 28C to 28S to 48SX to 48GX to 49G, > and at least sometimes even in revisions of the 49G ROM. Why > should we expect the change from 49G to 49g+ to be so much > different? Or from the 49G to the 49G emulation on the Qonos, for > that matter? I'd prefer that no attempt is made to emulate the bugs new to the > 49g+; any left over from the 49G would be enough. I do hope that a ROM improved from 1.19-6 can be used. > Therefore Qonos migt turn out to be in a separate class (if they don't go > for 100%) > but on the other hand they might produce a very well 49G, then, with time, > once they manage the ARM emulation which i agree will be interesting to see > they might get 49G+ which would actualy be better than current 49G+ > firmware. You mean that they should emulate the ARM hardware too? Why on > earth would they want to do that? It seems to me that another > layer of emulation would slow things down, use up more memory, and > present yet more opportunities for bugs. I suppose that it would > give the hackers more things to play with, but for ordinary users, > remember that May you live in interesting times. is supposed to > be a curse. And I think that Hydrix might have a bit of a legal problem if > they tried to distribute the 49g+ ROM image without HP's > permission. But of course, HP would have a bit of a problem trying > to stop 49g+ owners from using a ROM image that they just happened > to have available, if someone came up with a way of loading it. Maybe they should simply provide emulation software for every > processor ever made? Of course, feel free to emulate the ARM (or any other) hardware > yourself. New 49g+ features that I'd consider worth emulating on the Qonos: USB and IrDA, but with proper handshaking before printing and > XMIT, and proper flow control, and a reasonable range for the > IrDA. The larger screen, but able to use the full screen height > better. But the last that I read about it, the Qonos is already > supposed to have more pixels in both directions. I hope that > Hydrix plans to put all of those pixels to good use in the HP > calculator emulation mode. But maybe each calculator pixel will > be displayed as a 2X2 square on the Qonos? 48 series features missing from the 49g+ worth emulating: RS-232 compatible I/O, including software flow control. Serial IR I/O, compatible with the 48 series. Red-Eye IR (for 82240 compatible printers) restored to a > reasonable range. I expect that Veli-Pekka would add some more.... Come to think of it, the Hydrix site says HP48/49G, so maybe > we'll have our choice of 48SX, 48GX, or 49G. :-) But hey, what about the 28 series? I wonder whether the emulated > Saturn is close enough to the Lewis to run a 28 series ROM image. > Let's hope HP decides to release a ROM update with better 49G compatibility. I'm hoping for a new ROM release too, although I've begun to > wonder whether they've already abandoned the 49g+ to work on the > next model. And I suppose that the in-house HP calculator R&D > team is now too few to continue development on his own time. > if 49G+ had just a bit more pixels it would be peace of cake to emulate TI. Emulate TI on a 49g+? You're joking, right? That horrible ALG mode > on the 49 series already emulates TI far more that I'd prefer. > You could load apropriate ROM and enjoy your favorite calc. I'd consider an RPL-only ROM to be appropriate, but some people > seem to have minds that work differently from mine. > (i know keyboard would be different -but this is about how it's gonna be on > Qonos) I hope for a nice big centrally located ENTER key. The TI users > can have a little = key out on a corner. -- > James === Subject: Re: Qonos- A Future Failure? EDITED BY VPN yes i am aware of how complex the Intel chip really is: and I'm aware that it's not just the core ship it is all the additional blocks of hardware around it: LCD controller, DMA, Timers etc... BUT <- only VPN is allowed to use capital BUT, it's a trademark (-; if HP want's to have a product comparable with Qonos they MUST release the ARM interfaces and the memory map, because all software which will be written for Linuxl OS of the Qonos will not work on the 49g+ In fact you would buy the latest product of calc. industry, jet have the product which is one generation behind, despite the fact that it might have superior hardware. Powerfull Intel software is to come, and hit hard. Games, addons, hardware-oriented software like drivers for USB hardware etc even alternative ROM's. The analog inputs and outputs they all hope for in Qonos can be also made as a little USB dongle, with right software -it will work great, you may even plug a USB 5.1 Sound Blaster to it :-) don't laugh -EVERYTHING is possible with Linux community behind the Qonos!!! HP has lost the game already!!! The open programming environment of the Qonos will make it a hit later!! Then the new even advanced models will come: like color display (and only half the operating time), etc... about display: in my opinion the whole idea of having an emulator is to be compatible with real-life unit, use of larger display in HP 49g+, will be very nice and a thing a thing to be welcome, BUT it WON'T be compatible with all the old software used in other HP 48/49 calcs (including the new 49gII) A good solution would be: introducing a FLAG (or mode setting) which would determine how would you like to use the display. in a comatible or incompatible manner, but this will actualy be a splitting point. There will be software for big screen and software for small screen. BUT since HP will never ever do this the only good flexible choise is the Linux based Qonos!! [VPN] I rest my case... === Subject: Re: Qonos- A Future Failure? I think JYA has said that the 49g only is being emulated only. This makes sense because the 49g+ would probably be too slow - you would have 2 layers of emulation. Why bother, when you can emulate the saturn directly? > BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+ Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result. Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff? > they MUST go > that way, because all software > which will be written for ARM environment of 49G+ will not work on Qonos. ... > Powerfull ARM software is to come, and hit hard. Games, addons, > hardware-oriented software like drivers for USB hardware etc even > alternative ROM's. Really? Its been months since people could write this software. What has come of it? Almost nothing. I don't think there has been a single proper application written in ARM. No games either. Maybe if HP had released some technical information with the introduction of the 49g+, you would have many programs by now. HP's offical policy seems to be we don't care about 3rd party development. Look at TI on the other hand. http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/overview.html http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/8992/hilight/hilight.html No one is asking for a complete SDK. Even providing a decent memory map + docs on the new emulated Saturn instructions would be a great help. Such information is already sitting on a harddrive somewhere. I can't see how it would hurt them to give it out. Al === Subject: Re: Qonos- A Future Failure? Hi AL, i think i have an answer to why ARM software is not here: the people are not familiar with ARM core and instruction set, on the other hand a lot of people are waiting to see a nice integration with Saturn ML and systemRPL, the other group of people may be waiting for a nice little assembler that will compile on the 49G+ itself -so you wouldn't need a PC, JAVA etc... Developers (entusiasts) are waiting to see what will come out of development tools you and other have been working on. I admire and respect your work, however, i would realy like to see a compiler on the HP itself. Compiling C or assembly for ARM and then extracting it using your JAVA program, transfering it to HP or SD card then H-> ing it seems like a procedure to me. Too much people including me are waiting for things to get a bit clearer what are we gonna do, and where to go from here. A lot of peolpe didn't like the mess with Saturn compilers where (once) we had several compilers using different mnemonics and slightly different roules. I think MASD cleared that mess, and i realy started programming SaturnML when i saw MASD and realized that everybody has it -therefore it IS standard. I'm currently writing a GIF decoder, (LZW) decompressor -having little trouble with table of sequences (i havent figured out the optimal structure to hold the sequences) it recognises GIF87a and GIF89a formats it reads headers, and comes to a decoding part, even reads the firs sequence of the Image having GIF will be nice to hold grescale pictures (nicer than GROB -smaller and compatible with PC graphics software, plus transparency will give us ability to produce nice sprites) About Qonos emulation: > BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+ Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result. Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff? it is obviews: 49G+ is much more than emulated 49G ARM code won't work if ARM is not emulated, in that case Qonos may be a good 49G but never G+ sysRPL is nice, Saturn is nice as Well, but Hardware Greyscale and all nice features ARM offers like DMA, timers, and so on won't be available or they may be available but in that case it will turn out to be Xscale code and hardware supported with BUSC command. Which will again be different and incompatible. I understand the speed concerns you're talking about and i agree with you, but in case you're describing Qonos will be a very fast 49G but it won't be G+ (period). manjo > I think JYA has said that the 49g only is being emulated only. This > makes sense because the 49g+ would probably be too slow - you would have > 2 layers of emulation. Why bother, when you can emulate the saturn directly? > BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+ Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result. > Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff? they MUST go > that way, because all software > which will be written for ARM environment of 49G+ will not work on Qonos. ... > Powerfull ARM software is to come, and hit hard. Games, addons, > hardware-oriented software like drivers for USB hardware etc even > alternative ROM's. Really? Its been months since people could write this software. What has > come of it? Almost nothing. I don't think there has been a single proper > application written in ARM. No games either. Maybe if HP had released some technical information with the > introduction of the 49g+, you would have many programs by now. HP's > offical policy seems to be we don't care about 3rd party development. Look at TI on the other hand. http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/overview.html > http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/8992/hilight/hilight.html No one is asking for a complete SDK. Even providing a decent memory map > + docs on the new emulated Saturn instructions would be a great help. > Such information is already sitting on a harddrive somewhere. I can't > see how it would hurt them to give it out. > Al > === Subject: Re: Qonos- A Future Failure? > I admire and respect your work, however, i would realy like to see a > compiler on the HP itself. Do you mean a C compiler, or an ARM assembler? A C compiler might be very tricky, but I'm sure an assembler is possible. It would be a nice thing to include in a future ROM. > Compiling C or assembly for ARM and then extracting it using your JAVA > program, transfering it to HP or SD card then H-> ing it seems like a > procedure to me. At the moment, if you wanted to make something, you'd have to (assuming a windows system): 1) write some C code, for instance hiworld.c 2) compile it by typing 'hpgcc hiworld hplib' (or whatever other files you use) 3) send the resulting string to the calculator. There is no java needed any more; I realized its a pain in the neck. I am doing all my future work in C so the result is standard .exe files. Too much people including me are waiting for things to get a bit clearer > what are we gonna do, and where to go from here. A lot of peolpe didn't like > the mess with Saturn compilers where (once) we had several compilers using > different mnemonics and slightly different roules. I think MASD cleared that > mess, and i realy started programming SaturnML when i saw MASD and realized > that everybody has it -therefore it IS standard. If by 'compilers' you mean assembler, then there shouldn't be any incompatibility. ARM mnemonics are pretty standardized. C itself is a fairly old standard - you shouldn't have problems with different compilers. I'm currently writing a GIF decoder, (LZW) decompressor > -having little trouble with table of sequences > (i havent figured out the optimal structure to hold the sequences) > it recognises GIF87a and GIF89a formats > it reads headers, and comes to a decoding part, even reads the firs sequence > of the Image having GIF will be nice to hold grescale pictures (nicer than GROB -smaller > and compatible with PC graphics software, plus transparency will give us > ability to produce nice sprites) This sounds like an interesting project - good luck with it. > Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result. > Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff? it is obviews: > 49G+ is much more than emulated 49G ARM code won't work if ARM is not > emulated, in that case Qonos may be a good 49G but never G+ Please look at this page: http://lebonpoint.chez.tiscali.fr/hp49gp/emuplus.htm It is multi-threaded. Here, I can get 58 Mhz at least (with my intel celeron 2,8 Ghz). On a 2.8 GHz celeron (a more powerful chip then the XScale) the ARM emulator still isn't as fast as the CPU on a real 49g+ - and that emulator doesn't simulate any peripherals. Considering the Qonos has a Intel PXA 263 XScale processor, running at 400 MHz, how is it supposed to emulate the 49g+ at a reasonable speed? Even if you suppose the emulator speed can be tripled, its still too slow for a handheld. To me, it looks like a choice between a fast 49g (maybe 4 times as fast as a real 049g+?), vs a very slow emulated 49g+. Also, consider how much work would be required to make such an emulator. There are so many peripherals built into the Samsung chip, it would be a nightmare. >sysRPL is nice, > Saturn is nice as Well, but Hardware Greyscale and all nice features ARM > offers like DMA, timers, and so on won't be available or they may be > available but in that case it will turn out to be Xscale code and hardware > supported with BUSC command. Which will again be different and incompatible. But if you had a Qonos, you already have a linux system. Greyscale etc would already be supported; you wouldn't need any of the hacks people are doing now. I understand the speed concerns you're talking about and i agree with you, > but in case you're describing > Qonos will be a very fast 49G but it won't be G+ (period). I don't see how it is feasible to emulate the 49g+ :-/ cheers, Al manjo >>I think JYA has said that the 49g only is being emulated only. This >>makes sense because the 49g+ would probably be too slow - you would have >>2 layers of emulation. Why bother, when you can emulate the saturn directly? >>BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+ >>Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result. >>Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff? >>they MUST go >that way, because all software >which will be written for ARM environment of 49G+ will not work on Qonos. >... >Powerfull ARM software is to come, and hit hard. Games, addons, >hardware-oriented software like drivers for USB hardware etc even >alternative ROM's. >>Really? Its been months since people could write this software. What has >>come of it? Almost nothing. I don't think there has been a single proper >>application written in ARM. No games either. >>Maybe if HP had released some technical information with the >>introduction of the 49g+, you would have many programs by now. HP's >>offical policy seems to be we don't care about 3rd party development. >>Look at TI on the other hand. >>http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/overview.html >>http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/8992/hilight/hilight.html >>No one is asking for a complete SDK. Even providing a decent memory map >>+ docs on the new emulated Saturn instructions would be a great help. >>Such information is already sitting on a harddrive somewhere. I can't >>see how it would hurt them to give it out. >>Al > === Subject: Re: Qonos- A Future Failure? Hi again, > No one is asking for a complete SDK. Even providing a decent memory map > + docs on the new emulated Saturn instructions would be a great help. > Such information is already sitting on a harddrive somewhere. I can't > see how it would hurt them to give it out. I hate to be a smart-ass but i think i know the answer to this one: it's always been this way, when calc is fresh released there is very little documentation, I bet they love to see us making conclusions and arguments about their products as we take their baby apart piece by piece. They are in fact learning from us. You can be sure that there are some employees that have nothing to do but read this group and take notes. Once we take it completely apart they will provide the DOCS, because they hate to take all the fun away from us. At the same time our talk and arguments about the 49G+ is in fact a form of advertisement the content of our arguments (good or bad) is irelevant. I mean a lot of people including me enjoy learning about the machine form the first hand -exploring, hacking rather than just read the RAW INFO in some doc right ? When hacking and exploring is the way you learned things about it you treasure the knowlege in a different way and the unit iself -you actualy learn to love it almost as if it was your invetion. This in fact is the whole point of enthusiastic hacker-like research :-) don't you agree ? manjo As for the Qonos if it will be based up on Linux or similar (sophisticated) operating system -it can very well be whatever we want it to be, so i agree with you guys if we decide that 49G is enough for our use 49G will be if we start whining for G+ and hydrix decides to listen and go for it -even better :) > Hi AL, i think i have an answer to why ARM software is not here: > the people are not familiar with ARM core and instruction set, on the other > hand a lot of people are > waiting to see a nice integration with Saturn ML and systemRPL, the other > group of people may be waiting for a nice little assembler that will compile > on the 49G+ itself -so you wouldn't need a PC, JAVA etc... Developers (entusiasts) are waiting to see what will come out of development > tools you and other have been working on. I admire and respect your work, however, i would realy like to see a > compiler on the HP itself. > Compiling C or assembly for ARM and then extracting it using your JAVA > program, transfering it to HP or SD card then H-> ing it seems like a > procedure to me. Too much people including me are waiting for things to get a bit clearer > what are we gonna do, and where to go from here. A lot of peolpe didn't like > the mess with Saturn compilers where (once) we had several compilers using > different mnemonics and slightly different roules. I think MASD cleared that > mess, and i realy started programming SaturnML when i saw MASD and realized > that everybody has it -therefore it IS standard. I'm currently writing a GIF decoder, (LZW) decompressor > -having little trouble with table of sequences > (i havent figured out the optimal structure to hold the sequences) > it recognises GIF87a and GIF89a formats > it reads headers, and comes to a decoding part, even reads the firs sequence > of the Image having GIF will be nice to hold grescale pictures (nicer than GROB -smaller > and compatible with PC graphics software, plus transparency will give us > ability to produce nice sprites) About Qonos emulation: > BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+ Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result. > Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff? it is obviews: > 49G+ is much more than emulated 49G ARM code won't work if ARM is not > emulated, in that case Qonos may be a good 49G but never G+ sysRPL is nice, > Saturn is nice as Well, but Hardware Greyscale and all nice features ARM > offers like DMA, timers, and so on won't be available or they may be > available but in that case it will turn out to be Xscale code and hardware > supported with BUSC command. Which will again be different and incompatible. I understand the speed concerns you're talking about and i agree with you, > but in case you're describing > Qonos will be a very fast 49G but it won't be G+ (period). manjo > I think JYA has said that the 49g only is being emulated only. This > makes sense because the 49g+ would probably be too slow - you would have > 2 layers of emulation. Why bother, when you can emulate the saturn > directly? > > BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+ > > Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result. > Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff? > > > they MUST go > that way, because all software > which will be written for ARM environment of 49G+ will not work on > Qonos. > > ... > > Powerfull ARM software is to come, and hit hard. Games, addons, > hardware-oriented software like drivers for USB hardware etc even > alternative ROM's. > > Really? Its been months since people could write this software. What has > come of it? Almost nothing. I don't think there has been a single proper > application written in ARM. No games either. > > Maybe if HP had released some technical information with the > introduction of the 49g+, you would have many programs by now. HP's > offical policy seems to be we don't care about 3rd party development. > > Look at TI on the other hand. > > http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/overview.html > http://education.ti.com/us/resources/developer/8992/hilight/hilight.html > > No one is asking for a complete SDK. Even providing a decent memory map > + docs on the new emulated Saturn instructions would be a great help. > Such information is already sitting on a harddrive somewhere. I can't > see how it would hurt them to give it out. > > Al === Subject: Re: Qonos- A Future Failure? > I hate to be a smart-ass but i think i know the answer to this one: > it's always been this way, when calc is fresh released there is very little > documentation, > I bet they love to see us making conclusions and arguments about their > products as we > take their baby apart piece by piece. They are in fact learning from us. You > can be > sure that there are some employees that have nothing to do but read this > group and take notes. I'm not saying he is one of them, but remember that Cyrille was the one who gave us (the community) the first program including arm code (a grayscale picture of a car... his car?). He said: Here's a first step, now you keep climbing this ladder. -- Beto Reply: Erase between the dot (inclusive) and the @. Responder: Borra la frase obvia y el punto previo. === Subject: Re: Qonos- A Future Failure? > Hi again, >>No one is asking for a complete SDK. Even providing a decent memory map >>+ docs on the new emulated Saturn instructions would be a great help. >>Such information is already sitting on a harddrive somewhere. I can't >>see how it would hurt them to give it out. > I hate to be a smart-ass but i think i know the answer to this one: Don't worry, you're not being one :) it's always been this way, when calc is fresh released there is very little > documentation, > I bet they love to see us making conclusions and arguments about their > products as we > take their baby apart piece by piece. They are in fact learning from us. You > can be > sure that there are some employees that have nothing to do but read this > group and take notes. I'm sure some HP people are reading this. Once we take it completely apart they will provide the DOCS, because they > hate to take > all the fun away from us. At the same time our talk and arguments about the > 49G+ is in fact a form of advertisement the content of our arguments (good > or bad) is irelevant. > I mean a lot of people including me enjoy learning about the machine form > the first hand -exploring, hacking rather than just read the RAW INFO in > some doc right ? When hacking and exploring is the way you learned things about it you > treasure the knowlege in a different way > and the unit iself -you actualy learn to love it almost as if it was your > invetion. This in fact is the whole point of enthusiastic hacker-like > research :-) don't you agree ? No. I personally thing its very frustrating, knowing that I am re-inventing the wheel. I've spent ages trying to figure this $%#$ing keyboard out. I could could have spent that time making a nice program. Also, it hurts users. As a quick example, most programs must be bloated by carrying the complete minifont in them each time. I know theres a 'print' function somewhere already, but not how to use it. If I find the address of this print function, there is no guarantee that it will be stable between ROM upddates. It would be a pain trying to fix things that break between ROM releasees. Its also dangerous. To use the keyboard, I have to play with I/O pins. Who knows where they are attached to? Its may be possible to cause physical damage with a bad program. I will give you a quote from the TI-GCC discussion board, where I asked for some advice a while ago: I advise you to search as far as possible, or ask HP, for an interface with the non-emulated ARM OS (and a list of its functions), before writing anything widely used... For heaven's sake, don't start a kernel mess (instability, incompatibilities...) like that of the TI-68k calculators, which persists more than six years after it began, unless you have made sure there isn't *any* other way ! didn't have up to TIGCC 0.95, the new linker offers interesting kernel features for native use without the kernel drawbacks (large set of pseudo-standard libraries, crashes all the time due to extremely dirty hacks such as absolute addresses to system variables, etc.) Al manjo As for the Qonos if it will be based up on Linux or similar (sophisticated) > operating system -it can very well be whatever we want it to be, so i agree > with you guys if we decide that 49G is enough for our use 49G will be > if we start whining for G+ and hydrix decides to listen and go for it -even > better :) >>Hi AL, >>i think i have an answer to why ARM software is not here: >>the people are not familiar with ARM core and instruction set, on the other >hand a lot of people are >>waiting to see a nice integration with Saturn ML and systemRPL, the other >>group of people may be waiting for a nice little assembler that will compile >on the 49G+ itself -so you wouldn't need a PC, JAVA etc... >>Developers (entusiasts) are waiting to see what will come out of development >tools you and other have been working on. >>I admire and respect your work, however, i would realy like to see a >>compiler on the HP itself. >>Compiling C or assembly for ARM and then extracting it using your JAVA >>program, transfering it to HP or SD card then H-> ing it seems like a >>procedure to me. >>Too much people including me are waiting for things to get a bit clearer >>what are we gonna do, and where to go from here. A lot of peolpe didn't like >the mess with Saturn compilers where (once) we had several compilers using >>different mnemonics and slightly different roules. I think MASD cleared that >mess, and i realy started programming SaturnML when i saw MASD and realized >that everybody has it -therefore it IS standard. >>I'm currently writing a GIF decoder, (LZW) decompressor >>-having little trouble with table of sequences >>(i havent figured out the optimal structure to hold the sequences) >>it recognises GIF87a and GIF89a formats >>it reads headers, and comes to a decoding part, even reads the firs sequence >of the Image >>having GIF will be nice to hold grescale pictures (nicer than GROB -smaller >and compatible with PC graphics software, plus transparency will give us >>ability to produce nice sprites) >>About Qonos emulation: >BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+ >>Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result. >>Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff? >>it is obviews: >>49G+ is much more than emulated 49G ARM code won't work if ARM is not >>emulated, in that case Qonos may be a good 49G but never G+ sysRPL is nice, >Saturn is nice as Well, but Hardware Greyscale and all nice features ARM >>offers like DMA, timers, and so on won't be available or they may be >>available but in that case it will turn out to be Xscale code and hardware >>supported with BUSC command. Which will again be different and incompatible. >I understand the speed concerns you're talking about and i agree with you, >>but in case you're describing >>Qonos will be a very fast 49G but it won't be G+ (period). >>manjo >>I think JYA has said that the 49g only is being emulated only. This >makes sense because the 49g+ would probably be too slow - you would have >2 layers of emulation. Why bother, when you can emulate the saturn >>directly? >>>BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+ >>Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result. >Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff? >>>they MUST go >>>that way, because all software >>which will be written for ARM environment of 49G+ will not work on >>Qonos. >... > === Subject: Re: Qonos- A Future Failure? > I think JYA has said that the 49g only is being emulated only. This > makes sense because the 49g+ would probably be too slow - you would have > 2 layers of emulation. Why bother, when you can emulate the saturn directly? > BUT if hydrix want's to have a product comparable with 49G+ Why would they? Emulating the 49g would give a much faster result. > Emulating the entire SoC would be a big task - what is the payoff? X Adding to Al's response: Qonos: ARM style Intel CPU emulating Saturn using 49G ROM HP 49g+: ARM CPU emulating Saturn using a new ROM They both are emulators! The Qonos also has Advanced math software: Gnuplot, Giac/Xcas (supposedly better than Maple), MathsExplorer PDA software: calendar, tasks, notes, time management To my opinions the QOnos with Linux and revealed memory map plus revealed interface for programming is a clear winner in every possible respect (incuding the possibility to load other ROM's to the EMU49) [VPN] === Subject: Re: Qonos- A Future Failure? [Qonos (sp?)] > Since Qonos has a 320x240 LCD (maybe 16 grayscale for TinyX) > it could be considered subsubnotebook (good for submarine usage) > The calculatrice mode (perhaps 80 or 100 MHz) may not have all > the bells and whistles of the desktop eg. PDA mode, > the PDA will surely allow browsing > With a suitable Linux driver a WiFi card could be plugged in > and you can browse web in your pocket....wirelessly It will be good enough for browsing, considering that Pocket PC's have 240x320 browser and run Internet Explorer. Add either WiFi or a card (PCMCIA) slot for a normal network card/56k modem, and it can be used to browse the Internet, or to add a hard drive. []s -- Chaos Master¨, posting from Brazil. REPLY TO GROUP! MSN: wizard_of_yendor[@]hotmail[.]com http://marreka.no-ip.com The modern stereotypes are Yamaha, Sony, Aiwa, Pioneer, Technics... === Subject: Re: Qonos- A Future Failure? , at group comp.sys.hp48, on the [Qonos] > It will be good enough for browsing, considering that Pocket PC's have 240x320 > browser and run Internet Explorer. Add either WiFi or a card (PCMCIA) slot for ^^^^^^^ make this display -- Chaos Master¨, posting from Brazil. REPLY TO GROUP! MSN: wizard_of_yendor[@]hotmail[.]com http://marreka.no-ip.com Powered by chaos. Chaos. CHAOS. ©|-|405. === Subject: Re: Fractions > Use algebraics. '1/4' > '10/3' > + > gives either '43/12' (if in exact mode) > or 3.583333333 in aproximate. TW === Subject: Re: Fractions >Use algebraics. >>'1/4' >>'10/3' >>+ >>gives either '43/12' (if in exact mode) >>or 3.583333333 in aproximate. >>TW > You have to keep them as '3+1/2' -- Beto Reply: Erase between the dot (inclusive) and the @. Responder: Borra la frase obvia y el punto previo. === Subject: Re: Fractions > Use algebraics. '1/4' > '10/3' > + > gives either '43/12' (if in exact mode) > or 3.583333333 in aproximate. TW === Subject: SysRPL inform box Hi all, I have a few questions about inform boxes. In User RPL, man can use the INFORM command. In SysRPL, the command DoInputForm does the same thing faster and is much more powerful. DoInputForm takes several arguments, and some of them are secondaries which are event handler. There is one event handler for each field and one event handler for the whole inform box. But I can find nowhere some explications about these events handler. All tutorials about the command DoInputForm say we have to set a event handler as DROPFALSE. All I know is the event handler takes a binary integer (the type of the event) as argument and return FALSE if the event is not handled and TRUE if the event is handled. If TRUE is returned, the event handler, according to the event number, can take some extra arguments on the stack and eventually leave attended objets on the stack. So the default event handler handles nothing : it drops the event number and returne FALSE, ignoring the event. For example, I have a field in which the user has to enter a time. I'd like the event handler to check whether the number entered by the user is valid (0 <= time < 24, 0<=minutes<60, etc...). If the number is invalid, I'd like the field to be unchanged and maybe to display a message box displaying the error. I know the DoInputForm is powerful enough to allow these kinds of features, but how can I program them ? Do you have some useful documentations ? By decompiling the secondary launched by hitting the [H] key (the [MODE] key which opens a very complex input form), I discovered the entry ^IfMain2. Where could I find documentation about this entry ? How can I build the precompiled string ? -- Khanh-Dang === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > If I had to complain about the HP48-49 series ... I prefer the 'clamshell' > arrangement of my old HP28S. It was MUCH faster for entering programs and > data. With proper selection of function layout it would also kick booty > for programming over anything a 48/49 could offer. Finally someone mentioning the 28S ! The perfect balance between simplicity and effectivity. If they could just make a new version of that one. With more ram and flash, a comm port or bi-directional IR, a slightly bigger screen and a few functional extensions maybe(e.g. a matrix writer and equation writer), but not too much, for the sake of simplicity. More complex stuff you'd want to do on a small laptop anyway ! HP28S: - Fine quality - No Keyboard clutter - No obscure or hidden menus - Very fast typing (and therefore programming) Take e.g. the HP49(+) : The purge command isn't even on the keyboard !!! and on the HP49 the single quote is under a shifted key FCOL... Hopeless for daily work... For a regular engineer with no desire to spend hours on figuring out how he should get things done, the HP28S is (was!) a great machine. Jaap Versteegh === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? X > Take e.g. the HP49(+) : The purge command isn't even on the keyboard !!! X in my calc the (Left-Shift=LS, Right Shift=RS, & hold while pressing) [LS]&[DEL] is PURGE and [RS]&[CLEAR] is PGDIR Above there is room to write them down to the calc's faceplate [VPN] === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? I use my HP28S everyday at work. I much prefer a good RPN calculator for basic +-*/ stuff than a PC running Excel. > If I had to complain about the HP48-49 series ... I prefer the 'clamshell' > arrangement of my old HP28S. It was MUCH faster for entering programs and > data. With proper selection of function layout it would also kick booty > for programming over anything a 48/49 could offer. Finally someone mentioning the 28S ! The perfect balance between simplicity > and effectivity. If they could just make a new version of that one. With more ram and flash, > a comm port or bi-directional IR, a slightly bigger screen and a few > functional extensions maybe(e.g. a matrix writer and equation writer), but > not too much, for the sake of simplicity. More complex stuff you'd want to > do on a small laptop anyway ! HP28S: > - Fine quality > - No Keyboard clutter > - No obscure or hidden menus > - Very fast typing (and therefore programming) Take e.g. the HP49(+) : The purge command isn't even on the keyboard !!! > and on the HP49 the single quote is under a shifted key FCOL... Hopeless for > daily work... For a regular engineer with no desire to spend hours on figuring out how he > should get things done, the HP28S is (was!) a great machine. Jaap Versteegh === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > I use my HP28S everyday at work. I much prefer a good RPN calculator for > basic +-*/ stuff than a PC running Excel. The benefit of Excel is that you can set-up a simple spreadsheet and play what if. It also provides reasonably good documentation of your calculation. === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > I use my HP28S everyday at work. I much prefer a good RPN calculator > for > basic +-*/ stuff than a PC running Excel. The benefit of Excel is that you can set-up a simple spreadsheet and play > what if. It also provides reasonably good documentation of your > calculation. Of course, you can use your TI 83+ or TI 89/92+/V200 with CellSheet and have the most important parts of Excel's functionality on your calculator -- in some ways, you could have more functionality, with the 89's ability to embed symbolics in the cells' formulas. Why doesn't somebody author a spreadsheet for the HP line of calculators? === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > I use my HP28S everyday at work. I much prefer a good RPN calculator > for > basic +-*/ stuff than a PC running Excel. > > The benefit of Excel is that you can set-up a simple spreadsheet and play > what if. It also provides reasonably good documentation of your > calculation. > > Of course, you can use your TI 83+ or TI 89/92+/V200 with CellSheet and have > the most important parts of Excel's functionality on your calculator -- in > some ways, you could have more functionality, with the 89's ability to embed > symbolics in the cells' formulas. Why doesn't somebody author a spreadsheet for the HP line of calculators? In principle it might be possible, however HP calculators are not ubiqutious. What is needed is something a bit more accessible to people. Also I can build a pretty quick killer worksheet in a fraction of the time it takes to program a similar one on a calculator. === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? Luke Morrison meinte >Why doesn't somebody author a spreadsheet for the HP line of calculators? Hm, I've used with some pleasure Xcell and Exal on my 48gx. Gru§ G.9fnter === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > Luke Morrison meinte >Why doesn't somebody author a spreadsheet for the HP line of calculators? Hm, I've used with some pleasure Xcell and Exal on my 48gx. Gru§ G.9fnter > Excellent. The port of Xcell from 48gx to 49G seems to work fine on the 49g+. === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > If I had to complain about the HP48-49 series ... I prefer the 'clamshell' > arrangement of my old HP28S. It was MUCH faster for entering programs and > data. With proper selection of function layout it would also kick booty > for programming over anything a 48/49 could offer. Finally someone mentioning the 28S ! The perfect balance between simplicity > and effectivity. If they could just make a new version of that one. With more ram and flash, > a comm port or bi-directional IR, a slightly bigger screen and a few > functional extensions maybe(e.g. a matrix writer and equation writer), but > not too much, for the sake of simplicity. More complex stuff you'd want to > do on a small laptop anyway ! HP28S: > - Fine quality > - No Keyboard clutter > - No obscure or hidden menus > - Very fast typing (and therefore programming) Take e.g. the HP49(+) : The purge command isn't even on the keyboard !!! > and on the HP49 the single quote is under a shifted key FCOL... Hopeless for > daily work... For a regular engineer with no desire to spend hours on figuring out how he > should get things done, the HP28S is (was!) a great machine. Jaap Versteegh I agree ... the common complaint I've heard is that the hinge arrangement was fragile. I have a hard time believing that. When I had my HP-28S I was in the USMC regularly living in the dirt with it. I had it in the Mojave Desert for years. I even took it with me to spend a winter in Norway living in the snow (quite literally) and again had no problems. Eventually I think I cracked the case near the battery compartment or some such thing and soon thereafter the display died. I owned this calculator from 1987 to about 1994 or 1995. In that same time period I went through more Timex watches than calculators. With such hard use I'd call that a good long life under harsh conditions. === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? Anand, The HP33S? Depends on what your looking at using your calculator for? Like comparing a Ford with a Ferrari. The HP49G+ overpowers the HP33S in every way. The HP33S is very limited in programming. However from personal experience, the HP33S has no keyboard problems and works every time! Very reliable. Quality is similar although the HP33S keys seem softer and nicer to press. The HP33S is quite slim and fits neatly in a top shirt pocket. Noel Causerano (Registered Surveyor) GEOCALC SOFTWARE Registered Reseller HP Invent Cairns, QLD, Australia Email: noel@geocalc.net WEB: www.geocalc.net === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > Anand, The HP33S? Depends on what your looking at using your calculator for? Like > comparing a Ford with a Ferrari. The HP49G+ overpowers the HP33S in > every way. The HP33S is very limited in programming. However from personal experience, the HP33S has no keyboard problems > and works every time! Very reliable. Quality is similar although the HP33S keys seem softer and nicer to > press. The HP33S is quite slim and fits neatly in a top shirt pocket. > Noel Causerano (Registered Surveyor) > GEOCALC SOFTWARE > Registered Reseller HP Invent > Cairns, QLD, Australia > Email: noel@geocalc.net > WEB: www.geocalc.net I'm curious about the HP33S. In reading about the HP33S on HP's website I do not see any mention of complex math. Is it built in? Also there is mention of internal Napier precision. Just what is this? === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > I'm curious about the HP33S. In reading about the HP33S on HP's website I > do not see any mention of complex math. Is it built in? There is basic complex math +,-,/,*,^ . . . anything else? This is the only thing that I use algebraic mode for. I can type in (3+4i)*(5-3i)*3^2i and it appears just like that on the screen. In RPN you must use all 4 stack levels to do any complex math. It doesn't do roots however. -- TW === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? Yeah, the CAS is kind of nice, as is the speedy integration, but the computer is always faster, and i try to avoid using CAS when i can. They usually don't let us use graphing calculators on tests, if they do, it's ridiculously hard anyway. So i stick to the scientific calcs and just use the 49G+ to check my work when i'm in the library. Comparing the quality of the G+, the 48g, and a TI calculator. After close inspection, i think the TI-83 is a better built calculator than the 49G+. There's even a program that switches it to RPN mode,but i don't have a link so i can't try it out :) They do however reccomend the HP 33s (and since i'm almost done with math, i won't need the advanced functions), so I'm wondering if I should get that. But is it really worth $50 just for an RPN calculator? I could easily pick up some calculator for 3 bucks at a retail store or something. The layout also looks funny too... Also, in RPN mode, can you see 2 stack levels? or do you just get one row? === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? X > Also, in RPN mode, can you see 2 stack levels? or do you just get one > row? RPN shows X and Y simultaneously, which is very nice! but If the 49g+ is allowed in tests I would rather take it and put all the needed programs in a SD card... [VPN] PS: In Finland all CAS, any symbolics at all, even the HP 38/39 are not allowed in graduation tests (when you're ~19 yrs) Here the 33S is the best choise from HP === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > Do you participate of HPClub e-mail list? No, I don't know what is this list? []s -- Chaos Master¨, posting from Brazil. REPLY TO GROUP! MSN: wizard_of_yendor[@]hotmail[.]com http://marreka.no-ip.com Powered by chaos. Chaos. CHAOS. ©|-|405. === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > I was just curious as to why everyone likes the HP 48G series so much > better than the 49g (48gII/49G+ also). I wouldn't say *everyone*. Actually, I rather like a lot of things about my 49g+. It's great for playing around experimenting with how it works and writing programs just for fun. But when I have some real work to do.... I don't recall that my 48SX or 48GX have ever missed a keystroke. None of the menus are hidden on the 48 series. The keyboard layout and menu organisation are very well thought out on the 48 series. The faceplate lettering above the keys isn't so difficult to read, especially on the 48SX. Sometimes, perhaps due to the CAS sometimes insisting on getting in its two cents worth, the 49 series gives me a surprisingly complicated looking result. The only TTRMs (other than intentional memory clears) that I've ever gotten from a 48 series were when verifying oddball bugs that someone else discovered, when taking a chance that an entry point was at the address where I hoped it was, and one time with the 48SX when I left it out in the car over a weekend, and a control alarm came due at 3 o'clock in the morning in well below zero weather. I guess that waking up in the cold and working was just too much to ask of the batteries. I trust the results from the 48 series (within reason, that is; I don't automatically always trust my use of the tool, and I know that it has its limitations). I don't have to have the 48 series so close to the printer. Well, with the 49G, printing via IR isn't even possible. With the 49g+, it's more difficult than it ought to be. When I want to use raw serial I/O, flow control works on the 48 series. And unlike the 49g+, they *have* RS-232 compatible I/O. The ENTER key is easier to reach; it's bigger and more or less centrally located, not an ordinary-sized key stuck out on a corner. There's not so much obviously wasted space on the 48 series keyboards. With the 49G, with that heavy chunk of plastic over the display, it can be difficult to read, particularly when the viewing angle or lighting is less than ideal. I'm not always at a desk when I use a calculator. I've heard of key hinges breaking on the 48 series, but rarely, and I think always after years of heavy use, except perhaps where the calculator had something dropped on it. I've never heard of a 48 series spontaneously breaking for no good reason, although I've read that the display can't survive much of an impact. For real work, the 48 series calculators accomplish everything that I need them to, and fast enough. The batteries last much longer in the 48 series. The 48 series just keep on working. I prefer the 48 series zippered cases for protecting the calculators. The 48 series look nicer, especially the 48SX; functional, as a good tool should look, not flashy like some sort of game gadget for kids. Because I like the 48 series better than the 28 series, which I like *much* better than my previous calculators, which I often like better than pushing a pencil. > I'm a college student, and I had a 48G+ that my brother gave to me a > while back. The keys were really nice, but the problem was that the > calculator was SO SLOW. Seriously, there was no point in even using > the MSLV/equation library because it took forever, and was faster to > do by hand, Okay, but after you finish school, how often will you be using those features? > and numerical integration was faster by hand also... By any chance, were these carefully contrived problems that give nice simple answers, or were they more realistic problems like those that you're likely to find outside of school? > I bought the HP49G+ recently. I can tell that the keys are worse than > the original, they have a hollow sound and are pretty loud, but if i > push the keys in the corner, they're pretty quiet. (Also, I remember I > left a heavy book on top of the calculator while it was in the black > case for about a day; the buttons were really good and made no sound, > but after 4 hours or so, the buttons went back to normal). The HP49G+ is also WAY faster than the 48. Graphing is fast, and the > MSLV is also pretty fast. My complaints of both of the calculators is that there is no TABLE > function, where you can see a table of values of a graph. Sure there are table functions on the 49 series. Why do you suppose that it says TABLE over the F key and TBLSET over the E key? For the 48 series, you could always write a simple program to sample the function at particular values. But again, how often will you use this after you finish school? Do some research about the calculators. But don't expect to learn everything about them; learn what's useful or interesting to you. By the way, there's a lot of information available at: http://www.hpcalc.org/ > Also, when > graphing, there is no way to type in a value, such as 3 (for x) and > get the respective Y value. (Unless I'm stupid and can't find these > things) Well, let me see if I remember. How about when graphing a function (on a 48GX; the 49g+ should be similar), after the plot finishes drawing, you press TRACE, then press (X,Y), then move the cursor (a small +) right or left until you see about X: 3, and then read what you have for Y. And no, that doesn't mean that you're stupid, although it may say something about the documentation that comes with these calculators. Graphing a function can be interesting and educational, but for normal use, if you want to see what F(X) equals when X=3, why not just store 3 in the variable X, and evaluate 'F(X)'? > Also, what's up with the price of the 48GX, in the past week, I've > seen 2 on ebay go for 110 (buy it now ended) with just the soft > case... I suppose that after trying the 49 series, users are anxious to get some spare 48 series calculators while they're still available cheap. -- James === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? Regarding the Serial ports on the 49 series: How is it that they are not RS232 compatible? Tom > I was just curious as to why everyone likes the HP 48G series so much > better than the 49g (48gII/49G+ also). I wouldn't say *everyone*. Actually, I rather like a lot of things > about my 49g+. It's great for playing around experimenting with > how it works and writing programs just for fun. But when I have some real work to do.... I don't recall that my 48SX or 48GX have ever missed a keystroke. None of the menus are hidden on the 48 series. The keyboard layout and menu organisation are very well thought > out on the 48 series. The faceplate lettering above the keys isn't so difficult to read, > especially on the 48SX. Sometimes, perhaps due to the CAS sometimes insisting on getting > in its two cents worth, the 49 series gives me a surprisingly > complicated looking result. The only TTRMs (other than intentional memory clears) that I've > ever gotten from a 48 series were when verifying oddball bugs that > someone else discovered, when taking a chance that an entry point > was at the address where I hoped it was, and one time with the > 48SX when I left it out in the car over a weekend, and a control > alarm came due at 3 o'clock in the morning in well below zero > weather. I guess that waking up in the cold and working was just > too much to ask of the batteries. I trust the results from the 48 series (within reason, that is; I > don't automatically always trust my use of the tool, and I know > that it has its limitations). I don't have to have the 48 series so close to the printer. Well, > with the 49G, printing via IR isn't even possible. With the 49g+, > it's more difficult than it ought to be. When I want to use raw serial I/O, flow control works on the 48 > series. And unlike the 49g+, they *have* RS-232 compatible I/O. The ENTER key is easier to reach; it's bigger and more or less > centrally located, not an ordinary-sized key stuck out on a > corner. There's not so much obviously wasted space on the 48 series > keyboards. With the 49G, with that heavy chunk of plastic over the display, > it can be difficult to read, particularly when the viewing angle > or lighting is less than ideal. I'm not always at a desk when I > use a calculator. I've heard of key hinges breaking on the 48 series, but rarely, > and I think always after years of heavy use, except perhaps where > the calculator had something dropped on it. I've never heard of a 48 series spontaneously breaking for no good > reason, although I've read that the display can't survive much of > an impact. For real work, the 48 series calculators accomplish everything > that I need them to, and fast enough. The batteries last much longer in the 48 series. The 48 series just keep on working. I prefer the 48 series zippered cases for protecting the > calculators. The 48 series look nicer, especially the 48SX; functional, as a > good tool should look, not flashy like some sort of game gadget > for kids. Because I like the 48 series better than the 28 series, which I > like *much* better than my previous calculators, which I often > like better than pushing a pencil. I'm a college student, and I had a 48G+ that my brother gave to me a > while back. The keys were really nice, but the problem was that the > calculator was SO SLOW. Seriously, there was no point in even using > the MSLV/equation library because it took forever, and was faster to > do by hand, Okay, but after you finish school, how often will you be using > those features? and numerical integration was faster by hand also... By any chance, were these carefully contrived problems that give > nice simple answers, or were they more realistic problems like > those that you're likely to find outside of school? I bought the HP49G+ recently. I can tell that the keys are worse than > the original, they have a hollow sound and are pretty loud, but if i > push the keys in the corner, they're pretty quiet. (Also, I remember I > left a heavy book on top of the calculator while it was in the black > case for about a day; the buttons were really good and made no sound, > but after 4 hours or so, the buttons went back to normal). > > The HP49G+ is also WAY faster than the 48. Graphing is fast, and the > MSLV is also pretty fast. > > My complaints of both of the calculators is that there is no TABLE > function, where you can see a table of values of a graph. Sure there are table functions on the 49 series. Why do you > suppose that it says TABLE over the F key and TBLSET over the > E key? For the 48 series, you could always write a simple program > to sample the function at particular values. But again, how often > will you use this after you finish school? Do some research about the calculators. But don't expect to learn > everything about them; learn what's useful or interesting to you. > By the way, there's a lot of information available at: > http://www.hpcalc.org/ Also, when > graphing, there is no way to type in a value, such as 3 (for x) and > get the respective Y value. (Unless I'm stupid and can't find these > things) Well, let me see if I remember. How about when graphing a function > (on a 48GX; the 49g+ should be similar), after the plot finishes > drawing, you press TRACE, then press (X,Y), then move the cursor > (a small +) right or left until you see about X: 3, and then read > what you have for Y. And no, that doesn't mean that you're stupid, > although it may say something about the documentation that comes > with these calculators. Graphing a function can be interesting and educational, but for > normal use, if you want to see what F(X) equals when X=3, why not > just store 3 in the variable X, and evaluate 'F(X)'? Also, what's up with the price of the 48GX, in the past week, I've > seen 2 on ebay go for 110 (buy it now ended) with just the soft > case... I suppose that after trying the 49 series, users are anxious to > get some spare 48 series calculators while they're still available > cheap. === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > Regarding the Serial ports on the 49 series: How is it that they are not RS232 compatible? X The new HP 49g+ has (mini)USB port!! Fortunately Cable is included as well as a CD with Connectivity Kit The USB is a client-only The new HP 48GII has a non-standard RS-Port, which can not be used as a controller since it draws it's power from the connected device so the RS-232C is client-only The transfers are initiated by the PC but the speed is up to 115,100. The old HP 49G and 48-series all have a decent RS-232C, which can also be used as a controller, not only client. The speed is only 9,600 19,200 using a speed-up module. The old HP-IR speed is 2,400 and it has a good range The new IrDA is 115,200 but the range is less then 3 The old HP 49G has no IR whatsoever [VPN] - corrections or more info??? James? === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > Regarding the Serial ports on the 49 series: > > How is it that they are not RS232 compatible? > X > The new HP 49g+ has (mini)USB port!! > Fortunately Cable is included as well as a CD with Connectivity Kit > The USB is a client-only The new HP 48GII has a non-standard RS-Port, > which can not be used as a controller > since it draws it's power from the connected device > so the RS-232C is client-only The transfers are initiated by the PC > but the speed is up to 115,100. The old HP 49G and 48-series all have a decent RS-232C, > which can also be used as a controller, not only client. The speed is only 9,600 > 19,200 using a speed-up module. The old HP-IR speed is 2,400 and it has a good range The new IrDA is 115,200 but the range is less then 3 The old HP 49G has no IR whatsoever [VPN] - corrections or more info??? James? TIA, Tom === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > I'm a college student, and I had a 48G+ that my brother gave to me a > while back. The keys were really nice, but the problem was that the > calculator was SO SLOW. Seriously, there was no point in even using > the MSLV/equation library because it took forever, and was faster to > do by hand, Okay, but after you finish school, how often will you be using > those features? I'd say never, first of all because the HP49g+ will not last that long :) (just read today's posts to this NG) - this is not our iron-built reliable HP48! Reth === Subject: Re: Why does everyone like the 48g series so much? > I was just curious as to why everyone likes the HP 48G series so much > better than the 49g (48gII/49G+ also). I wouldn't say *everyone*. Actually, I rather like a lot of things > about my 49g+. It's great for playing around experimenting with > how it works and writing programs just for fun. 49g+ is better. > I don't recall that my 48SX or 48GX have ever missed a keystroke. Unless the foam looses it's properties and you [ON] key stops working > None of the menus are hidden on the 48 series. Not enough functions for that. > The keyboard layout and menu organisation are very well thought > out on the 48 series. Yeah, like swithching on-and-off the alpha mode to access the cursor keys while editing a text or a program... > The faceplate lettering above the keys isn't so difficult to read, > especially on the 48SX. I like the colors of the 48S, the 48Gay shift are mint and lila > Sometimes, perhaps due to the CAS sometimes insisting on getting > in its two cents worth, the 49 series gives me a surprisingly > complicated looking result. COLLECT > When I want to use raw serial I/O, flow control works on the 48 > series. And unlike the 49g+, they *have* RS-232 compatible I/O. Quite true! I really miss a proper serial controller. > The ENTER key is easier to reach; it's bigger and more or less > centrally located, not an ordinary-sized key stuck out on a > corner. [ENTER] forever: This is the only vastly superior thing in 48 > There's not so much obviously wasted space on the 48 series > keyboards. Yet one cannot move cursors in ALPHA mode > With the 49G, with that heavy chunk of plastic over the display, > it can be difficult to read, particularly when the viewing angle > or lighting is less than ideal. I'm not always at a desk when I > use a calculator. 49g+ has no such problem > The 48 series just keep on working. NOT always: ALL my 48GX ceased to work because the foam got old [ON] stopped working, then the shift keys, finally ALPHA... > I prefer the 48 series zippered cases for protecting the > calculators. I use the old 41 belt loop case (or 71B case) AND I have a metal case for my old 49G > The 48 series look nicer, especially the 48SX; functional, as a > good tool should look, not flashy like some sort of game gadget > for kids. > Because I like the 48 series better than the 28 series, which I > like *much* better than my previous calculators, which I often > like better than pushing a pencil. Huh? No 41 praise?! > and numerical integration was faster by hand also... By any chance, were these carefully contrived problems that give > nice simple answers, or were they more realistic problems like > those that you're likely to find outside of school? 49g+ is fast, but you can always use SCI 3 for num. integration. > I suppose that after trying the 49 series, users are anxious to > get some spare 48 series calculators while they're still available > cheap. BAH! - > James I have slightly different view of things mainly because my keys work ok (after wiggle fix and going for single ALPHA lock) [VPN] - opinions ONLY ! === Subject: Re: Laplace transform issue of 49g+ > EXP2HYP > 'VPN' - it is Complex, isn't it? I jst post a message. But it returned Server Error. transform. Both LAP and ILAP works fine now. === Subject: Re: Laplace transform issue of 49g+ > EXP2HYP > 'VPN' - it is Complex, isn't it? YES! That's the solution. after ILAP. It seems good. BTW, does anyone know why some posts alway keep it's position of the last one of thread? === Subject: Re: Laplace transform issue of 49g+ would you be willing to post the program? I'm just gettign ready to start learning laplace & larenze tranformations > EXP2HYP >> 'VPN' - it is Complex, isn't it? YES! That's the solution. after ILAP. It seems good. >BTW, does anyone know why some posts alway keep it's position of the >last one of thread? === Subject: Re: Laplace transform issue of 49g+ > EXP2HYP That's it! It's not under any of the menus I don't think. I think it's a new command from 49G ROM 1.19-6. So they may have added the command without putting it under a menu page. It's not in the 49G manuals nor in the 49G+ manuals except in the built-in CAS help function. Anyways, a nice command accessible from the catalog! Dave === Subject: Need some help here!!!!! Is there any way to work with tables like the TI-83 does for the following set of data. this was an exam question. Not that the question is dificult but the difficulty of the exam stands in the lack of time we get to resolve the problems. All the others guys of my class are using their TI-83 wich has the capabilities of working with sets of data entered in colums. Was wondering if the same could be done with my HP-49. length | [40,100[ | [100,125[ | [125,150[ | [150,175[ | [175,200[ age |_______________________________________________________________________ [0,3[ | 0,14 | 0,01 | | | [3,6[ | 0,02 | 0,16 | 0,02 | | [6,12[ | | 0,04 | 0,06 | 0,05 | [12,18[| | | 0,02 | 0,05 | 0,03 [18,65[| | | 0,10 | 0,20 | 0,10 Questions asked: 1¡ One of the attractions of this park is only authorized if you are taller than 1m20. How many percent of the children under 12 can visit this attraction. 2¡ will not give here because it's not related 3¡For which group is the difference in length the biggest: the group under 12 or above 12. 4¡A girl is 2 years old and is already looking forward to go on the attraction for people taller than 1m20. Can you make a prediction based on the data for people under 12 when she will be admitted on this attraction and wich model do you need to follow. The exponential or the linear? Why? 5¡The expenses (E) on food and beverage is depending on the age a. For people older than 18 the link is the following; E=22-0,2*a. For people younger than 18 it is E=4+0,8*a. Compare the correlation for the ages an the expenses for the group younger than 18 with the one older than 18. What can you conclude out of this? So actually this was one part of my exam. What I wanted to know was if it was possible to have the same tools and capabilities (and eventually more ;-) )on my HP 49 than on those TI-83 or TI-89. Because that tabeling function (data analysis with different variables) is really cool. Thanx to you all. === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart Since HP doesn't sell it's calculators here. I can only buy mine from overseas. I start to worry where I could get service if I get similar situation. === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart Going from bad to worse. Hard to believe the HP49G+ is actually made by HP. These calculators don't deserve to wear the HP logo. I do believe there is hope on the horizon, HP must be improving the quality on the new batchs by now! [NC] === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > The black fender thing around my HP49G+ suddenly snapped while I was using > the calc. It was laying on a desk and I pushed the keys with one of my index > fingers - entereing half the numbers I intended to incidently. *Snap*, and > the black rim came clean off broken in two. It must've been the case flexing > slightly to make that happen. It's apparantly way too brittle. So, now I ship the sucker back to HP for a refund - I'm done with that sh**. instead, > it's much faster for the work I do anyway... Mine just snapped last night. I was putting it back in its case and heard a little pop. Sure enough, there's a crack in the upper right corner of the black band. The band is still on tight and I can't get it off to repair the crack but it's not that noticeable and now the stress is relieved so it shouldn't be a problem from now on. Tom Lake === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart I cannot believe! Things falling apart from the HP calc! What a crap, this HP-49G+ ... I cannot even imagine the similar situation with HP-48GX (HP-41C, HP-71B, HP-42S, ...). HrastProgrammer > Hi. The black fender thing around my HP49G+ suddenly snapped while I was using > the calc. It was laying on a desk and I pushed the keys with one of my index > fingers - entereing half the numbers I intended to incidently. *Snap*, and > the black rim came clean off broken in two. It must've been the case flexing > slightly to make that happen. It's apparantly way too brittle. So, now I ship the sucker back to HP for a refund - I'm done with that sh**. instead, > it's much faster for the work I do anyway... Steen === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > I cannot believe! Things falling apart from the HP calc! What a crap, this > HP-49G+ ... I cannot even imagine the similar situation with HP-48GX (HP-41C, HP-71B, > HP-42S, ...). X What about the HP-18C, 19B, 28S, which all had the battery door problem? ALL my HP-48GX have their [ON] and both shift keys non-working, unless you depress below the display, close to [ B ] The Chargers of the E-series had a lot of failures. Non of my 41CX works any more. My HP-71B works no longer using batteries, it needs the AC-power My 75C is falling apart Only my HP-25 is still working, but it is hard to get batteries for it you have to build the pack yourself. Well the HP-16C seems to be fine - on 3rd set of batteries (have to replaced in 5-7 years or so) NO TROUBLE with my HP 49G or HP 49g+ Well maybe the keys my older 49G are now lighter because of pounding on the heavy keys OR as I suspect: my arms look like the Popeya's arms [VPN] PS: it must be a defective batch of too hard plastic used on those bands. Tough luck Steen & others I have never heard of such thing in Finland. === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > ALL my HP-48GX have their [ON] and both shift keys non-working, > unless you depress below the display, close to [ B ] > Non of my 41CX works any more. > My HP-71B works no longer using batteries, it needs the AC-power > My 75C is falling apart Yes, right. But how old have they been when this happened for the first time and problems start to arise? Steen's HP-49G+ seems to be almost new one. === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart >> ALL my HP-48GX have their [ON] and both shift keys non-working, >> unless you depress below the display, close to [ B ] >> Non of my 41CX works any more. >> My HP-71B works no longer using batteries, it needs the AC-power >> My 75C is falling apart Yes, right. But how old have they been when this happened for the first > time > and problems start to arise? Steen's HP-49G+ seems to be almost new one. You've got it right, but how many 49g+ has snapped lately? I think it's only one bad batch - eh? [VPN] === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > You've got it right, but how many 49g+ has snapped lately? > I think it's only one bad batch - eh? > [VPN] No. I've had 3 different calculators, all have snapped. Two of the older 3 serial numbers, one of the newer 4 serials. The problem is cheap plastic. If it hasn't happened to yours, it will. (no wiggle fix will save this one, just a few drops of superglue) The problem is that the band is actually stretched a little to give it a tight connection, but there are only 2 little tabs holding it in place. So in the corners the stress eventually wears it out and it cracks. HP: EITHER GET RID OF THE BLACK BAND OR PUT MORE LITTLE TABS IN THE STRIP AND LOOSEN IT A LITTLE! TW === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart >> You've got it right, but how many 49g+ has snapped lately? >> I think it's only one bad batch - eh? No. I've had 3 different calculators, all have snapped. Two of the > older 3 serial numbers, one of the newer 4 serials. The problem is > cheap plastic. If it hasn't happened to yours, it will. (no wiggle fix > will save this one, just a few drops of superglue) Are you saying my 49G+'s black band is on death row even though I've barely used it lately? -- Beto Reply: Erase between the dot (inclusive) and the @. Responder: Borra la frase obvia y el punto previo. === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart Oh no! The black band on my calculator may break off! That will have a destructive effect on my calculator, rendering it completely useless! === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > Oh no! The black band on my calculator may break off! That will have a > destructive effect on my calculator, rendering it completely useless! No need to be that sarcastic... I never said it would turn my calculator useless... That exists only in your mind. -- Beto Reply: Erase between the dot (inclusive) and the @. Responder: Borra la frase obvia y el punto previo. === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart >... > No need to be that sarcastic... Point well taken. I was a bit too hasty out of the box with that comment. === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart : >> ALL my HP-48GX have their [ON] and both shift keys non-working, : >> unless you depress below the display, close to [ B ] : >> Non of my 41CX works any more. : >> My HP-71B works no longer using batteries, it needs the AC-power : >> My 75C is falling apart : > : > Yes, right. But how old have they been when this happened for the first : > time : > and problems start to arise? Steen's HP-49G+ seems to be almost new one. : You've got it right, but how many 49g+ has snapped lately? : I think it's only one bad batch - eh? Add me to the count of people that had the black band break. A drop of crazy glue put it back together. When all's said and done I've become very fond of my 49g+ and I don't even do a lot of programming on it. It's just a nice calculator. -- Keep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > Add me to the count of people that had the black band break. A drop of crazy > glue put it back together. When all's said and done I've become very fond of my > 49g+ and I don't even do a lot of programming on it. It's just a nice > calculator. The only reason the list of people with snapped bands is that this problem doesn't affect usage! A bad keyboard will make many enemies because it interrupts your usage of the calculator. A small cracked black band with some glue on it won't even be noticed by most people. I'm guessing there are more peoplw with broken bands then most think. -- TW === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart : > Add me to the count of people that had the black band break. A drop of crazy : > glue put it back together. When all's said and done I've become very fond of my : > 49g+ and I don't even do a lot of programming on it. It's just a nice : > calculator. : The only reason the list of people with snapped bands is that this : problem doesn't affect usage! A bad keyboard will make many enemies : because it interrupts your usage of the calculator. A small cracked : black band with some glue on it won't even be noticed by most people. : I'm guessing there are more peoplw with broken bands then most think. I do think it's something that HP should address. A large reason for the loyalty of HP calculators users and in my never humble opinion a very important part of HP's reputation is the quality of their products. I personaly would rather they not even put the black trim on it the have something that was going to break so easily. -- Keep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > X > What about the HP-18C, 19B, 28S, which all had the battery door problem? > ALL my HP-48GX have their [ON] and both shift keys non-working, > unless you depress below the display, close to [ B ] The problem with your [ON] keys is that you've been using them too much too often in order to save batteries :) But at least we can see results - from no computer at all to the huge 21 inch LCD monitor... === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart X > But at least we can see results - from no computer at all to the huge 21 > inch LCD monitor... 21 tube, Sony GDM-F520, 85Hz in 2048*1536, 32-bit color LCD, what LCD? Oh yes from HP-28S LCD to the narrower but larger 48 series and then to 49g+ bigger screen, waiting for Qonos 320*240 (emulator uses 64*2 x 131*2 screen) [VPN] === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > Hi. The black fender thing around my HP49G+ suddenly snapped while I was using > the calc. It was laying on a desk and I pushed the keys with one of my index > fingers - entereing half the numbers I intended to incidently. *Snap*, and > the black rim came clean off broken in two. It must've been the case flexing > slightly to make that happen. It's apparantly way too brittle. Wow, either you are way too harsh on your calculator, or you've had alot of bad luck :-/ Al === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > Wow, either you are way too harsh on your calculator, or you've had alot > of bad luck :-/ Well, my HP49G hasn't got one single scratch on the screen (and I have used it plenty in the past), so I'm not too harsh on my calcs I think :-) My HP49G+ has never been dropped and has always been in its faux leather case when carried. It has never been packed with heavy items in soft bags - I handle it the way I handle my iPAQ (which obviously can't take much abuse). Steen === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > Wow, either you are way too harsh on your calculator, or you've had alot > of bad luck :-/ Well, my HP49G hasn't got one single scratch on the screen (and I have used > it plenty in the past), so I'm not too harsh on my calcs I think :-) My > HP49G+ has never been dropped and has always been in its faux leather case > when carried. It has never been packed with heavy items in soft bags - I > handle it the way I handle my iPAQ (which obviously can't take much abuse). X Haa! You must have left it in the dark leather case for prolonged periods after a travel. That soon makes any modern AI calc snap... (-; [VPN] PS: I have reported you behaviour to ACA (Abused Calculators Association) === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart <4119a904$0$16340$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>, > Hi. The black fender thing around my HP49G+ suddenly snapped while I was using > the calc. It was laying on a desk and I pushed the keys with one of my index > fingers - entereing half the numbers I intended to incidently. *Snap*, and > the black rim came clean off broken in two. It must've been the case flexing > slightly to make that happen. It's apparantly way too brittle. Wow, either you are way too harsh on your calculator, or you've had alot > of bad luck :-/ Al The black rim on mine snapped too, but with a touch of glue I put it back on. I had already exchanged another 49+ because it went south on me, and this one seems to be working nicely otherwise.. === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > Hi. The black fender thing around my HP49G+ suddenly snapped while I was using > the calc. It was laying on a desk and I pushed the keys with one of my index > fingers - entereing half the numbers I intended to incidently. *Snap*, and > the black rim came clean off broken in two. It must've been the case flexing > slightly to make that happen. It's apparantly way too brittle. So, now I ship the sucker back to HP for a refund - I'm done with that sh**. > it's much faster for the work I do anyway... Steen same thing happened to me: the black rim came off. I ended up having HP replace in late February and the quality of it is better. The keys are not classic HP quality but slightly better and not hard to press. Unfortunatley, the ENTER key is a little loose, but still workable. === Subject: Re: Well, now my HP49G+ is finally falling apart > When did you get your 49G+? This is my fourth HP49G+ - I got it around may '04. Steen === Subject: Re: Space Filler > Hail supports eqwprgms and eqwuser programs. I had a feeling it did, but I was in a hurry and didn't want to check :-) -- Bhuvanesh === Subject: TI hardware vs HP - RPN on TI? Can anyone give a comparison between the TI product quality vs HPs current designs? I know there is an RPN package available on TI, does anyone know the current state? I don't want to abandon RPN, and I would love to purchase a new 49G+, but they sound like junk. Is TI a viable option? Frank === Subject: Re: TI hardware vs HP - RPN on TI? > I know there is an RPN package available on TI, does anyone know the current > state? It's no longer being worked on, but it's quite stable. You can download the latest version from here: http://home19.inet.tele.dk/ew/programs.htm and the documentation from here: http://www.paxm.org/symbulator/download/rpn.html > I don't want to abandon RPN, and I would love to purchase a new 49G+, > but they sound like junk. The hardware appears to be problematic for many people; the software is pretty good (especially when running on a fast processor). > Is TI a viable option? Yes. -- Bhuvanesh === Subject: Problem-free CAS command execution (no fail, no mode change, etc.) XC49 can perform hp49g CAS commands (in RPN mode) so that they don't delete any variables, don't fail because of variables which already exist, don't prompt for any mode changes, and don't leave any modes changed after execution. Text and binary versions available from: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=5493 http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/math/symbolic/xc49v02.zip File names: xc49v02.zip, xc49v02.bin, xc49v02.txt ----- File xc49v02.txt from the above ----- === Subject: XC: CAS Modes/Vars relief! Description: This program can perform hp49g CAS commands (in RPN mode) so that they don't delete any variables, don't fail because of variables which already exist, don't prompt for any mode changes, and don't leave any modes changed after execution. You can use it in programs which in turn call CAS commands, or you can use it in menus which offer the same CAS commands as built-in menus, but which will execute them from your own custom menus in this new, hassle-free manner. You can also use it manually, any time at all, on any command or program you want to execute in this protected manner, by just putting the command on the stack, below its arguments, and then invoking XC, which will execute the command object left on the stack (you can leave the command in a list, or in a program, etc. because XC simply does an EVAL on whatever is there). How it works: Many CAS commands will fail if some particular variable exists; the variable which the CAS thinks it needs to delete is the variable whose name you store as Independent variable in the MODES CAS screen, which is stored in 'VX' within CASDIR, although for many more CAS commands (e.g. DERIV, RISCH, SOLVE, ISOL), it should instead delete the variable named as an argument on level 1, which the CAS doesn't even account for, causing it often to delete the wrong variable and then still fail. What XC does instead is to temporarily rename *both* the variable named in VX *and* any variable named as a final command argument on level 1, causing these variables to become invisible to any CAS (symbolic) command whatsoever; after the command completes, XC renames the variables back, completely eliminating any conflicts between existing variables and CAS commands. XC also saves all modes and flags and remembers the current directory, restoring them after the command completes, much like PUSH and POP, eliminating the current effect (as of rom 1.19-6) that all CAS commands otherwise leave your modes changed permanently (they all leave you in RADian angle mode, for example). Examples of use (RPN mode): 123 'X' STO 'X' STOVX @ create 'X' and set VX to 'X' 456 'Y' STO @ create 'Y' and store something '2*X+5' { INTVX } XC @ integrate this expression w/r/t 'X' Result: 'X^2+5*X' [without disturbing existing variable X] 'X-Y=5' 'Y' { SOLVE } XC @ solve this equation for 'Y' Result: 'Y=X-5' [without disturbing existing Y or X] Also leaves all modes and flags unchanged in each case, of course. Example of a custom menu which you can create, which performs all of its CAS commands using XC to make them hassle-free: { { DERVX << { DERVX } XC >> } { INTVX << { INTVX } XC >> } { SOLVE << { SOLVE } XC >> } { TEXPAND << { TEXPAND } XC >> } { } @ Etc. STOVX @ no need to use XC for this command } MENU @ becomes the CUSTOM menu in current (and lower) directory You can also do exactly the same within a program, substituting TMENU for the MENU command, to display a temporary menu, instead of a permanent menu. Instructions and program listings: Important! -- If you are going to download or type these into your calculator, instead of using the supplied pre-compiled binary version, then you must *first* do HOME 256 ATTACH, *before* downloading or typing, to make sure that the special commands from built-in library 256 will be properly compiled. The precompiled binary (for ROM versions 1.19-5 or later) is a directory containing two programs, XC and VRENP, plus additional variables $TITLE, $ROMID, $VISIBLE and $CONFIG, which optionally can be used to make a library. If you want to keep programs XC and VRENP in your HOME directory, just copy these two items into HOME using the Filer. If you prefer to store these programs as a library (faster execution), first type HOME 256 ATTACH (and press ENTER), then go into the precompiled directory and type CRLIB 2 STO to store the library (XClib 1358) into flash port 2 (you may then need to do an ON+C warmstart to install the library). After you have chosen between copying into HOME or creating a library, you may purge the originally supplied precompiled binary directory. This is the XC program: << IF OVER TYPE 6. == THEN OVER ELSE RCLVX END RCLF PATH -> v. f. p. << v. VRENP RCLVX VRENP -120. SF IFERR EVAL THEN 1. ELSE 0. END f. STOF p. EVAL v. S~N NOT S~N VRENP RCLVX S~N NOT S~N VRENP { ERRN DOERR } IFT > 'XC' STO Note: ROM versions prior to 1.19-5 do not have a RCLVX command, but you may substitute #C4007h FLASHEVAL for each RCLVX if your ROM is older (type VERSION to check your ROM version). The following creates a SysRPL program which is used by XC to rename variables: D9D200036234133D9D20881309EB5079E6031BC39136251B502A170D9D20 03D53B7970A3B63CA620400960018A30B2130F046385230B2130B2130 + DUP BYTES DROP #DB72h == { H-> } IFT 'VRENP' STO Note: If VRENP ends up containing a string, then there was a data transfer (or manual typing) error. SysRPL source for VRENP (58.5 bytes, #AAFEh checksum): ( ID -> rename all occurrences in current path ) :: CK1&Dispatch SIX :: DUP ID>$ ' xNOT EvalNoCK $>ID BEGIN :: 2DUPSWAP @ NOTcsdrpfls ; NOT_UNTIL 2DROP ; ; A final note: In very rare circumstances (e.g. interrupting an executing command), some variable may be left in a renamed state, with some special characters in its name (e.g. a variable originally named 'TD' would have program delimiter characters in its temporary name); if this ever happens, just put the current incorrect name ('xxx') in single quotes on the stack, or recall the variable and then press ANS, then type VRENP to restore the original variable name. With best wishes for happy calculating, from http://www.mum.edu === Subject: Re: Can I suppress global variables? Yippiiieee! This I was looking for! I didn't have any idea to realize it. Stefan === Subject: Backup Port 2 on 49g+ Is there an easy way to backup port 2 as a small group of objects in port 3? Right now I am creating a list of all the objects that looks like { 2:O1 2:O2 2:O3...2:On-2 2:On-1 2:On}. I then duplicate the list and run a dolist that calls the contents of the objects into the duplicated list that looks like {C1 C2 C3...Cn-2 Cn-1 Cn} where C ic the objects contents. After swaping these lists, I compile them into a list of 2 lists so I wind up with {{C1 C2 C3...Cn-2 Cn-1 Cn}{ 2:O1 2:O2 2:O3...2:On-2 2:On-1 2:On}}. I store this in port 3. To restore, I recall this to the stack and run <>DOLIST>>. This is very, very tedious and prone to errors. === Subject: Re: HP48GII Serial Number ??? MM, On a different angle this is not quite true although I guess it was mean't to be this way. My external serial is: 405xxx Not quite right here? [NC] === Subject: Re: HP48GII Serial Number ??? MM, Yes, that looks very obvious. I don't know why I didn't see it before, haha [NC] === Subject: Re: Question about hpgcc (was Re: hpgcc and newlib) > Any reasons why all objects are compiled with -msoft-float? > As this is the default for gcc when compiling arm-elf target. This depends on which cross gcc you use. > There's a bug in ld however, is it's not able to link a .o compiled with > -msoft-float with one compile without, even though both are using > software floating point emulation... Rather than a bug, it is probably a mismatch between the options you use when you generate your .o file and the files needed for the link (crt*.o, libs, ...). Laurent === Subject: newbie in RPL programming need some advice... Hello group, As a newbie in RPL programming, I need some advice on how to store a matrix composed of 20 rows by 10 collumns in user RPL ? The elements of the first column have to be evaluated against a variable and if there is a match, i have to use the values of this row to initialize new variables .... Any hint / reading /advice on this ? ps: sorry for my bad Inglish, I'm more fluent in French or Spanish :-) Tony -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ === Subject: Re: newbie in RPL programming need some advice... > Hello group, > As a newbie in RPL programming, I need some advice on how to store a > matrix composed of 20 rows by 10 collumns in user RPL ? I'm assuming you are using a 49g+ or 50G? If so and if I understand your question correctly, here is something you could try: Simply save the matrix into a variable after creating the matrix, eg., with the matrix in the stack enter 'MATRIX01' STO > The elements of the first column have to be evaluated against a variable I imagine the variables are already created, for this purpose we can say 'VAR01' is one such variable > and if there is a match, i have to use the values of this row to > initialize new variables .... The following could be part of a program: << MATRIX01 1. COL- AXL VAR01 POS ROW- SWAP DROP >> This will leave only the row of the matrix (except the first column) in the stack whose element in column 1 matches VAR01, of course if there is more than one match for VAR01, the first occurrence will be selected. If you need the complete row including the first column which contains the variable's match try: << MATRIX01 1 COL- SWAP DROP AXL VAR01 POS MATRIX01 SWAP ROW- SWAP DROP > Any hint / reading /advice on this ? > ps: sorry for my bad Inglish, I'm more fluent in French or Spanish :-) > Tony -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:http://www.opera.com/mail/ Hope any of this helps. Jacob === Subject: Re: newbie in RPL programming need some advice... Hello Jacob, > I'm assuming you are using a 49g+ or 50G? Yes I'm using a 50G. > ..... > .....The following could be part of a program: << MATRIX01 1. COL- AXL VAR01 POS ROW- SWAP DROP >> Exactly the needed thing ! > Hope any of this helps. Jacob > This solved my 'problem' :-D Have you any readings to recomend to improve my skills on RPL ? Tony -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ === Subject: Re: need suggestions.... > Hi guys, > I'm now using my trusty hp 48 gx for simple calculations, and I wante > to change it for something smaller. I was wondering if I should get > the new hp 35s or the 33s. Depends what you want to do. So, what do you want to do? I just wanted a back up for simple calculations since my 48 is kinda big to fit in my pocket... === Subject: Re: need suggestions.... J.Chen schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> Hi guys, >> I'm now using my trusty hp 48 gx for simple calculations, and I wante >> to change it for something smaller. I was wondering if I should get >> the new hp 35s or the 33s. >> Depends what you want to do. >> So, what do you want to do? I just wanted a back up for simple calculations since my 48 is kinda > big to fit in my pocket... > Then I'd suggest a 12C Anniversary Edition, which is even smaller than a 42S. Or an 11C if you really need trigs... Raymond === Subject: The HHC2007 Conference Commemorative Calendar At the HHC2007 HP Calculator Conference last weekend, an HP Calculator calendar (created by the conference committee) was given to every attendee. These commemorative calendars, featuring images of every HP calculator ever made (and some made but never sold), cover 16 months from September, 2007 through December, 2008. The 2007 pages feature special calculator themes while the 2008 pages cover each and every HP calculator series from the Classics beginning in 1972 through the current machines from the San Diego Calculator Division. They are spiral bound and printed on heavy, glossy paper on roughly A4-sized (8.25 by 11.5-inch) sheets. A limited number of additional copies are available now. If you wish to obtain a copy of this calendar, check out http://holyjoe.net/hhc2007/hhc2007%20calendar.htm on the web. Funds will go to help finance the HHC2008 conference on September 20-21, 2008 (at a location to be determined). Jake Schwartz jakes@pahhc.org === Subject: Re: The HHC2007 Conference Commemorative Calendar At the HHC2007 HP Calculator Conference last weekend, an HP Calculator > calendar (created by the conference committee) was given to every > attendee. A limited number of additional copies are > available now. If you wish to obtain a copy of this calendar, check > out http://holyjoe.net/hhc2007/hhc2007%20calendar.htm on the web. > Jake Schwartz > ja...@pahhc.org Apologies for the broken image links...it was late last night when posting that page :-) It should be all fixed now. Jake Schwartz === Subject: solvesys and ROM 2.10 the ROM to version 2.10-7 and solvesys doesn't work anymore (I receive a bad argument type error). I have read other post where people with this ROM don«t have this problem, so I think maybe is a configuration issue. These are my enabled (checked) flags: 20 21 27 28 32 35 35 37 38 41 42 43 54 56 66 81 82 90 92 117 120 128 With this configuration and 2.09 ROM, solvesys works. It doesn't work in 2.10 ROM with the defaults flags or with my flags. VER: 4.20060919. VERSION: Version HP50-G. Revision #2.10-7. SERIAL: CNA7064295 . === Subject: Re: Wave On a Pond ETAtAhUAjHgyulSb63NINPDdhGvB9GfOt3gCFCh2WtUs7BakpfkSY9RMSqQ6v6S+ best to keep in mind if you make a paper boat and place it on a pond wave it does not do anything put go up and down. Common sense would dictate the paper boat would move towards the shore. Tricky but out on lake Toho I did the experiment,and observed the reality of this. Residual waves out in the middle of the ocean only go up and down Waves that break near the shore roll in ,and seeing that as pushing of the wave near shore is what I'm talking about. It rubbing against the bottom that creates the ripple in of a wave. Bert === Subject: Fast Math - Numeric Conversions such as Weight, Volume, Roman Numerals, etc (angstroms to light-years) at www.fast.math.org Enjoy! - Jeff === Subject: Before There were Two Energies there was only One ETAtAhRZNF6of07d4Pm9Dj6j5yne2XWhuQIVAJPNhQVwctsO2WFSgW+h7iknP0+z I pick gravity was there first in cosmic space. Dark energy did not arrive yet Bert === Subject: Trillion Gallons of 212F Water + fission high Temp = live Steam ETAsAhRIcRo33DOM9fKSa2YNgsIA4jmPoQIULthJHuYfE9c+5az8WGs0u3YHz4c= Earth's heat vents every where. Point of fission in the core of trillion gallon tank,and you have the energy to turn turbines for hundreds of years. I predict Japan will be first to use this idea. Only one moving part Bert === Subject: Re: Peter J Ross Will Now Explain His Affiliation With Carlyle Sponsored Internet Porn -- Protgp.com Re: VOTE! Usenet Kook Awards, September 2007 right! > It's in the archives. Will Dockery, is that you? > Now explain<... > No. I'd rather keep you guessing. We Carlyle operatives like to tease > our victims. Teh graetest thing about having victims is being paid well to tease them :) -- Usenet's most helpful netizen Registered owner of alt.culture.alaska chadwickstone at gmail dot com === Subject: What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? : >>In addition, >>this receiver is so sensitive and powerful that it can clearly pick up >>watt-per-meter-squared. > > What is the energy of ONE 2GHz photon? > Free clue: Planck says E = h.v ; > h is Planck's constant (IIRC ~ 6.6E-34 Js) > v (Greek letter nu) is frequency, in Hz, i.e. 2E9 here > How does the resultant photon energy, in Joules, > compare to your imagined > intensity of (2^-10000) Wm^-2 ? How many 2GHz photons are you going to > get per square metre per second at that ridiculously low intensity? > Do you really think there'll be enough photons to carry any useful > (e.g. audio frequency) signal? > Hmm; (2^-10000) Wm^-2 ~= 5E-3011 Wm^-2 = 5E-3011 Js^-1m^-2 > E = h.v ~= 6.6E-34 * 2E9 ~= 1.32E-24 J per 2GHz photon > I guess you could expect an average of 1 photon per m^2 moseying > on by about > every 2.64E2986 seconds. > So far, the universe is estimated at 13.7E9 years > ~= 86400 * 365.25 * 13.7E9 seconds > ~= 4.32E17 seconds. > For all intents and purposes, at that intensity, at 2GHz, there ARE NO > PHOTONS to detect - unless you wanna wait about a > tillion universe- > lifetimes for each photon - time that you don't have. > Let me put that simply: > THERE IS NO 2GHz SIGNAL AT (2^-10000) Wm^-2. Okay. So 10-to-the-power-NEGATIVE-10,000 watt-per-meter-squared is so low itÕs impossible. What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? > Radium, why do you have this tendency to use such enormous > exponents in > your questions? I tend to be interested in -- and obsessed with -- the occult and extreme. === Subject: Re: What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? > Radium, why do you have this tendency to use such enormous > exponents in your questions? I tend to be interested in -- and obsessed with -- the occult and extreme. Fleetie, suggest you read my sig... -- _____________________ /| /| | | ||__|| | Please do not | / O O__ | feed the | / | Trolls | / |_____________________| / _ || / |____ || / | | | |____/ || / |_|_|/ | _|| / / |____| || / | | | --| | | | |____ --| * _ | |_|_|_| | -/ *-- _-- _ | || / _ | / ` * / _ /- | | | * ___ c_c_c_C/ C_c_c_c____________ === Subject: Re: What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? : : > : > Radium, why do you have this tendency to use such enormous : > exponents in your questions? : > : >I tend to be interested in -- and obsessed with -- the occult and extreme. : : Fleetie, suggest you read my sig... : : -- : : _____________________ : /| /| | | : ||__|| | Please do not | : / O O__ | feed the | : / | Trolls | : / |_____________________| : / _ || : / |____ || : / | | | |____/ || : / |_|_|/ | _|| : / / |____| || : / | | | --| : | | | |____ --| : * _ | |_|_|_| | -/ : *-- _-- _ | || : / _ | / ` : * / _ /- | | | : * ___ c_c_c_C/ C_c_c_c____________ For the art!!!... === Subject: Re: What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? : : : : : : >>In addition, : >>this receiver is so sensitive and powerful that it can clearly pick up : >>watt-per-meter-squared. : > : : > What is the energy of ONE 2GHz photon? : : > Free clue: Planck says E = h.v ; : : > h is Planck's constant (IIRC ~ 6.6E-34 Js) : > v (Greek letter nu) is frequency, in Hz, i.e. 2E9 here : : > How does the resultant photon energy, in Joules, : > compare to your imagined : > intensity of (2^-10000) Wm^-2 ? How many 2GHz photons are you going to : > get per square metre per second at that ridiculously low intensity? : > Do you really think there'll be enough photons to carry any useful : > (e.g. audio frequency) signal? : : > Hmm; (2^-10000) Wm^-2 ~= 5E-3011 Wm^-2 = 5E-3011 Js^-1m^-2 : : > E = h.v ~= 6.6E-34 * 2E9 ~= 1.32E-24 J per 2GHz photon : : > I guess you could expect an average of 1 photon per m^2 moseying : > on by about : > every 2.64E2986 seconds. : : > So far, the universe is estimated at 13.7E9 years : > ~= 86400 * 365.25 * 13.7E9 seconds : > ~= 4.32E17 seconds. : : > For all intents and purposes, at that intensity, at 2GHz, there ARE NO : > PHOTONS to detect - unless you wanna wait about a : > tillion universe- : > lifetimes for each photon - time that you don't have. : : > Let me put that simply: : : > THERE IS NO 2GHz SIGNAL AT (2^-10000) Wm^-2. : : Okay. So 10-to-the-power-NEGATIVE-10,000 watt-per-meter-squared is so : low itâs impossible. : : What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want : audio? : : > Radium, why do you have this tendency to use such enormous : > exponents in : > your questions? : : I tend to be interested in -- and obsessed with -- the occult and extreme. Sounds like you?, Want to listen to Jupiter!!!... === Summary: UDP === This server is temporarily under UDP because of recent massive hipcrime attacks, until the problem is solved by their administrators. We are sorry for the inconvenience. See news.admin.net-abuse.policy and news.admin.net-abuse.usenet for more details. === Subject: Would someone please respond with reasonable answers? [was Re: What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio?] Hi: I started a new thread because in OT content was added. : >>In addition, >>this receiver is so sensitive and powerful that it can clearly pick up >>watt-per-meter-squared. > > What is the energy of ONE 2GHz photon? > Free clue: Planck says E = h.v ; > h is Planck's constant (IIRC ~ 6.6E-34 Js) > v (Greek letter nu) is frequency, in Hz, i.e. 2E9 here > How does the resultant photon energy, in Joules, > compare to your imagined > intensity of (2^-10000) Wm^-2 ? How many 2GHz photons are you going to > get per square metre per second at that ridiculously low intensity? > Do you really think there'll be enough photons to carry any useful > (e.g. audio frequency) signal? > Hmm; (2^-10000) Wm^-2 ~= 5E-3011 Wm^-2 = 5E-3011 Js^-1m^-2 > E = h.v ~= 6.6E-34 * 2E9 ~= 1.32E-24 J per 2GHz photon > I guess you could expect an average of 1 photon per m^2 moseying > on by about > every 2.64E2986 seconds. > So far, the universe is estimated at 13.7E9 years > ~= 86400 * 365.25 * 13.7E9 seconds > ~= 4.32E17 seconds. > For all intents and purposes, at that intensity, at 2GHz, there ARE NO > PHOTONS to detect - unless you wanna wait about a > tillion universe- > lifetimes for each photon - time that you don't have. > Let me put that simply: > THERE IS NO 2GHz SIGNAL AT (2^-10000) Wm^-2. Okay. So 10-to-the-power-NEGATIVE-10,000 watt-per-meter-squared is so low itÕs impossible. What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? No offense but please respond with reasonable answers & keep out the jokes, off-topic nonsense, taunts, insults, and trivializations. I am really interested in this. Radium P.S. What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio? === Subject: Re: Would someone please respond with reasonable answers? [was Re: What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio?] >Hi: Hi to you too. Can you PLEASE fix your quote structure, you're inserting a blank space before the > which is not a valid quote marker. >I started a new thread because in >OT content was added. Life's like that. >What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want >audio? But posting the same questoin a zillion times is merely trolling. *plonk* -- Mark McIntyre === Subject: Re: Would someone please respond with reasonable answers? [was Re: What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio?] > Hi: Okay. So 10-to-the-power-NEGATIVE-10,000 watt-per-meter-squared is so > low it's impossible. What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want > audio? No offense but please respond with reasonable answers & keep out the > jokes, off-topic nonsense, taunts, insults, and trivializations. I am > really interested in this. > Radium P.S. What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I > want audio? What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want > audio? Ad infinitum ... Why should anyone respond with reasonable answers when fill the screen with the same line over and over again? You have been told the _correct_ answer numerous times, you will get is band limited noise, and if you then filter out the hiss as you said in your first post, you are left with NOTHING, just SILENCE. It doesn't matter how many watts you receive if your question then says you discard it all. If you persist in asking the same question over again when you have been told the answer several times, you shouldn't expect anything more than jokes and derision. George === Subject: Re: Would someone please respond with reasonable answers? [was Re: What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio?] Welcome to my kill file asshole. John. === Subject: Re: Would someone please respond with reasonable answers? [was Re: What is the minimum watts-per-meter-squared I need to receive if I want audio?] On Oct 11, 5:35 pm, Green Xenon [Radium] [snip idiocy] SHUT UP. Everything you ask is fantastically, impossibly, incomprehensibly stupid. That you have been doing it for so long is equally indescribably stupid. === Summary: UDP === This server is temporarily under UDP because of recent massive hipcrime attacks, until the problem is solved by their administrators. We are sorry for the inconvenience. See news.admin.net-abuse.policy and news.admin.net-abuse.usenet for more details. === Subject: Dedicated to Carl Sagan - Rockin' the Cradle There will be a time in our future history when the Solar System will be explored and inhabited. To them, and to all who come after us, the present moment will be a pivotal instant in the history of mankind. There are not many generations given an opportunity as historically significant as this one. The opportunity is ours, if we but grasp it. To paraphrase K. E. Tsiolkovsky, the founder of astronautics: The Earth is the cradle of mankind, but one cannot live in the cradle forever. I've read in many places how some people think that the Universe, the Cosmos is unknowable, that studying and learning about it is senseless. And to this i say with emphasis: *HOGWASH*! Here's another quote from one of the greatest minds in the history of astronomy's practical side, the side of astronomy that delves into the active hands-on exploration of the Universe... There was a time--and very recently--when the idea of the possibility of learning the composition of the celestial bodies was considered senseless even by prominent scientists and thinkers. That time has now passed. The idea of the possibility of a closer, direct, study of the universe will today, I believe, appear still wilder. To step out onto the soil of asteroids, to lift with your hand a stone on the Moon, to set up moving stations in ethereal space, and establish living rings around the Earth, the Moon, the Sun, to observe Mars from a distance of several tens of versts@, to land on its satellites and even on the surface of Mars--what could be more extravagant! However, it is only with the advent of reactive vehicles that a new and great era in astronomy will begin, the epoch of a careful study of the sky. . . . The prime motive of my life is to do something useful for people. . . . That is why I have interested myself in things that did not give me bread or strength. But I hope that my studies will, perhaps soon but perhaps in the distant future, yield society mountains of grain and limitless power. -- K. E. Tsiolkovsky, 1912 @ A verst is a Russian measure of linear distance equivalent to about two thirds of a mile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Tsiolkovsky . . . mountains of grain and limitless power. ...from his mouth to your mind, from just one of the babes in the cradle. Even a baby cannot help but to explore every nook and cranny. It's in our blood, in our genetic makeup. We cannot, and we must not, continue to reduce ourselves by fighting our instincts to explore and learn about our Earth, our Solar System, and the wondrous Universe in which we dwell. happy days and... starry starry nights! -- Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net === Subject: Re: Dedicated to Carl Sagan - Rockin' the Cradle There will be a time in our future history when > the Solar System will be explored and inhabited. > To them, and to all who come after us, the present > moment will be a pivotal instant in the history of > mankind. There are not many generations given an > opportunity as historically significant as this one. > The opportunity is ours, if we but grasp it. To > paraphrase K. E. Tsiolkovsky, the founder of > astronautics: The Earth is the cradle of mankind, but one > cannot live in the cradle forever. I've read in many places how some people think > that the Universe, the Cosmos is unknowable, > that studying and learning about it is senseless. > And to this i say with emphasis: *HOGWASH*! Here's another quote from one of the greatest > minds in the history of astronomy's practical > side, the side of astronomy that delves into the > active hands-on exploration of the Universe... There was a time--and very recently--when the > idea of the possibility of learning the composition > of the celestial bodies was considered senseless > even by prominent scientists and thinkers. That > time has now passed. The idea of the possibility of a closer, direct, > study of the universe will today, I believe, appear > still wilder. To step out onto the soil of asteroids, > to lift with your hand a stone on the Moon, to set > up moving stations in ethereal space, and establish > living rings around the Earth, the Moon, the Sun, > to observe Mars from a distance of several tens of > versts@, to land on its satellites and even on the > surface of Mars--what could be more extravagant! However, it is only with the advent of reactive > vehicles that a new and great era in astronomy > will begin, the epoch of a careful study of the sky. > . . . The prime motive of my life is to do something > useful for people. . . . That is why I have interested > myself in things that did not give me bread or > strength. But I hope that my studies will, perhaps > soon but perhaps in the distant future, yield society > mountains of grain and limitless power. -- K. E. Tsiolkovsky, 1912 @ A verst is a Russian measure of linear distance > equivalent to about two thirds of a mile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Tsiolkovsky . . . mountains of grain and limitless power. ...from his mouth to your mind, from just one of > the babes in the cradle. Even a baby cannot help > but to explore every nook and cranny. It's in our > blood, in our genetic makeup. We cannot, and we > must not, continue to reduce ourselves by fighting > our instincts to explore and learn about our Earth, > our Solar System, and the wondrous Universe in > which we dwell. happy days and... > starry starry nights! -- > Indelibly yours, > Paine > http://www.savethechildren.org/ > http://www.painellsworth.net As mankind expands into the universe, he will find many planets about many stars, but the likelihood of finding a planet just right for life as we know it will be very slim. However, once man learns to harness the limitless energies available, one can conceive of planets rich in ices, but too far from their star to be warm, like the bodies in our Kuiper Belt, being moved closer to their star to form liquid oceans and atmospheres that could eventually be made breathable. These could form perfect homes for mankind's descendants. They would be planets just like Earth! But wait a minute. If man could conceivably do this, maybe it has already been done! Was Earth once a resident of the far out frozen Kuiper Belt? Was God an astronaut? Double-A P.S. It is also interesting how the Moon was placed here to stabilize the planet and make it even more suitable for life. === Subject: Re: Dedicated to Carl Sagan - Rockin' the Cradle Painius For humankind to find life in the universe is very slim,but mother nature deals in almost infinite numbers,and that tells us there are billions of life forms in the universe,and most are superior to humankind. Be a kicker if the Earth is the only planet on our side of the Milky Way,but on the other side there are many Earth type planets,and they know one another Go figure Fact is the universe creating organic planets is well past the cradle stage It peaked about 8 billion years ago Bert === Subject: Re: Dedicated to Carl Sagan - Rockin' the Cradle > To > paraphrase K. E. Tsiolkovsky, the founder of > astronautics: > The Earth is the cradle of mankind, but one > cannot live in the cradle forever. > To soliloquize further, the Void-Space Paradigm is the playpen of science. But science cannot live in the playpen forever. oc === Subject: Re: Anisotropy and Mercury (2) > I was going to redo my code to interpolate between > steps for the perihelion advance but it will take > some effort and it is pointless if you don't accept > the path is valid anyway Your program plots the coordinates of a natural eccentric orbit with great precision, but that's where it ends. It cannot accommodate a gravity anisotropy the way you are trying to do it. The graphs shown on this web page http://members.optusnet.com.au/maxkeon/proven2.html were generated using the wrong initial orbital speed, which didn't matter at the time, but now it does. I've updated the web page for the correct initial speed. Nothing has really changed much though. This program requires the correct orbital speed to demonstrate my point. It does exactly as is stated below. '----------------- ' The program is designed to demonstrate that orbital speed can ' also be determined using Pythagoras. It provides an extremely ' fluid method of depicting how a mass in orbit would behave when ' it has been deflected off course by any minor collision. That's ' where part (2) of this program fails to deliver. ' The oscillations that are generated about the mean path have ' been initiated at the start and they continue to resonate ' throughout the orbit, oscillating back and forth within the ' confines of the centripital-centrifugal force imbalance, in ' the same manner as demonstrated on the web page linked below, ' and depending on where the trajectory may be pointing at ' aphelion and perihelion turnaround the oscillation distance ' can be increased or reduced. That's the realm of the gravity ' anisotropy and it can't be treated as part of the natural flow ' of an eccentric orbit. DEFDBL A-Z SCREEN 12: COLOR 7 CLS GOSUB ab c = 299792458# G = .0000000000667# M = 1.99D+30 multi = .000000002# ' Multiplier for the graphics. x = 69820000000#: vy = 38850# ' Aphelion start. yx = 57890570000# vv = vy ' Corrected initial orbital speed. newt = G * M / x ^ 2 ' Centrifugal force is established for ' all cases from this result. vz = vv lastradius = x rad = 45961140000# dt = 200 lasty = 41073216# ' This is roughly the initial negative advance that's generated ' as a consequence of the aphelion start. And that occurs with ' or without the anisotropy. aa: ' -------- Part (1) ---------------------------------- ' This section is as described in program (1) at ' http://members.optusnet.com.au/maxkeon/proven2.html ' Something that has become very obvious is that radial velocity ' has nothing whatever to do with generating centrifugal force. ' It's the tangential speed alone that generates the force, even ' though the force varies according to radius. The point is, a ' radius change most certainly cannot generate centrifugal force. ' Pythagoras is therefore a valid tool for determining orbital ' speed change caused by a fall or rise from a gravity source. ' The tangent leg of the triangle is always at 90 degrees to the ' force direction, or opposite leg of the triangle. The ' hypotenuse carries the orbital speed change. The true orbital ' speed is derived from that result. ana = ana + dt * cfx ' ana stores the current fall distance. anb = anb + ana ' anb stores the total fall distance. IF anc >= anb THEN s = (vz ^ 2# - ((ana) ^ 2 * dt)) ^ .5# IF anc < anb THEN s = (vz ^ 2# + (ana ^ 2 * dt)) ^ .5# anc = anb ' anc determines which of the two equations is active. vz = s ' vz carries the current tangential speed. vzvr = SQR(vz ^ 2 + vr ^ 2) ' vzvr is the true orbital speed. ' vr is extracted from part (2) of the program which plots the ' natural transition of the orbiting body between the two planes ' of its orbit. That has nothing to do with anomalous changes. LOCATE 8, 45: PRINT INT(vzvr) ' Orbital speed for part (1). CIRCLE (10 + inc, -180 + vzvr / 100), 0, 9 cf = vz ^ 2# / vv ^ 2# * newt ' (Current speed^2 / original speed^2) gives the centrifugal ' force change ratio. Multiplied by the original centrifugal ' force gives the actual force. cfx = newton + anisotropy - cf ' cfx holds the true fall rate, which is the difference ' between centripetal and centrifugal forces. '--------------------------------------------------- ' Part (2) ----------------- ryx = x * x + y * y radius = SQR(ryx) ' radius = radius + ana ' The anisotropy is excluded so that, apart from calculating ' radial velocity, there is no link whatever between the two ' methods for determining orbital speed. vr = (radius - lastradius) / dt lastradius = radius newton = G * M / ryx anisotropy = vr / c * -newton acceleration = -newton ax = acceleration * (x / radius) ay = acceleration * (y / radius) vx = vx + dt * ax vy = vy + dt * ay x = x + dt * vx y = y + dt * vy v = (vx ^ 2# + vy ^ 2#) ^ .5# ' Orbital speed for part (2). LOCATE 9, 45: PRINT INT(v) CIRCLE (10 + inc, -180 + v / 100), 0, 12 inc = inc + .015 ft = ft + 1 IF ft * dt > 7603200 THEN GOSUB ab GOTO aa ab: IF cycles = 5 THEN END inc = 0: ft = 0: CLS COLOR 9: LOCATE 8, 17: PRINT Orbital speed per Pythagoras COLOR 12: LOCATE 9, 19: PRINT Orbital speed per Part (2) COLOR 7 LOCATE 13, 18: PRINT Aphelion LOCATE 27, 18: PRINT Perihelion cycles = cycles + 1 LOCATE 21, 8: PRINT cycle; cycles RETURN '----------------- > so I'll just correct this: >> I've added this introduction to the web page as well. > ... >> THE ANOMALOUS >> FORCE CANNOT BE ADDED DIRECTLY TO THE EXISTING FORCES. > If an object moves 3m and then another 5m in the > same direction, it has moved 8m in that direction. > We call that displacement. Displacements add. Velocity is the rate at which displacement happens, > it is just the displacement divided by the time > taken so velocities add. Acceleration is the rate at which velocity changes, > it is just the change of velocity divided by the > time taken so accelerations add. Displacement, velocity and acceleration are all > vectors http://www.physchem.co.za/Vectors/Addition.htm The method used in my code uses x and y components: http://www.physchem.co.za/Vectors/Addition.htm#Rectangular Learn the basics Max, this is trivial schoolboy maths. Even if the anisotropy is inelastic the orbit eccentricity will only decay by around 41 meters per cycle. And it only requires less than .1 meters of that amount to be elastic to explain Mercury's perihelion advance. Even if I wasn't aware of the basics, my errors would be trivial, while yours are absolutely enormous. George, get used to the idea that I will only ever be proven wrong if I have misinterpreted the consequences of the zero origin universe. To the best of my knowledge, I base my arguments on the truth as defined by the zero origin concept http://members.optusnet.com.au/maxkeon/the1-1a.html That universe is akin to an infinitely faceted Rubix Cube, where the very first twist sets the ball rolling, and the more you twist it the worse it gets. It can never be put back the way it was. ----- Max Keon === Subject: Re: Anisotropy and Mercury (2) >> I was going to redo my code to interpolate between >> steps for the perihelion advance but it will take >> some effort and it is pointless if you don't accept >> the path is valid anyway Your program plots the coordinates of a natural eccentric orbit > with great precision, but that's where it ends. It cannot > accommodate a gravity anisotropy the way you are trying to do > it. You have provided me with an equation for the extra acceleration which is to be added to take account of the anisotropy. Acceleration is a vector and I have added it in the correct manner for adding vectors, so what I have done is the _only_ valid method that can make use of what you have provided. ... > I've added this introduction to the web page as well. >> ... > THE ANOMALOUS > FORCE CANNOT BE ADDED DIRECTLY TO THE EXISTING FORCES. ... >> Displacement, velocity and acceleration are all >> vectors >> http://www.physchem.co.za/Vectors/Addition.htm >> The method used in my code uses x and y components: >> http://www.physchem.co.za/Vectors/Addition.htm#Rectangular >> Learn the basics Max, this is trivial schoolboy maths. Even if the anisotropy is inelastic the orbit eccentricity will > only decay by around 41 meters per cycle. ... Sorry Max, it is thousands of km per orbit at the start, my code gives you the correct numbers, your calculations are flawed. > Even if I wasn't aware of the basics, my errors would be trivial, You are not aware of basics and as a result you have written code that gives you what you expected but not what the anisotropy would actually produce. > while yours are absolutely enormous. There are no errors in my method, and I have shown you the errors that result from the numerical integrations, you simply need to learn schoolboy maths. Study the two web site links above and start again once you have mastered their content, or read through my code and study how I have done it and compare that with the reference pages. When you understand what a vector is, you will find that my code is correct. I'm not going to waste any more time teaching you stuff you should have learned as a teenager Max, it is time for you to do some work for yourself. George === Been there, done that, got the baseball cap *and* the tee-shirt... I watched this several times. By the third time, i could almost *feel* it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duPxBXN4qMg Space Exploration -- Don't throw the baby out with the bath water! happy days and... starry starry nights! -- Ask the stars along the way, What good is Love? the stars will say... On your world so full of Hate A little Love must sometimes wait. Little or not, and come what may, A little Love goes a long, long way. Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net === Subject: HOT!!! Venusian Footprint Found! Based upon the following detailed image, this typical(?) Venusian is believed to be 27.6 feet tall and running (with a very long stride). http://www.the-solar-system.net/planet-venus/landslide-venus.html Sheesh! It must be like walking on hot coals or something. How *do* they *do* it??? TIC >-) happy days and... starry starry nights! -- Ask the stars along the way, What good is Love? the stars will say... On your world so full of Hate A little Love must sometimes wait. Little or not, and come what may, A little Love goes a long, long way. Indelibly yours, Paine http://www.savethechildren.org/ http://www.painellsworth.net === Subject: Re: HOT!!! Venusian Footprint Found! > Based upon the following detailed image, this > typical(?) Venusian is believed to be 27.6 feet > tall and running (with a very long stride). http://www.the-solar-system.net/planet-venus/landslide-venus.html Sheesh! It must be like walking on hot coals > or something. How *do* they *do* it??? TIC >-) happy days and... > starry starry nights! Thick callouses on their feet. Double-A === Subject: =?gb2312?B?ucW2raOoMTkxMi0xOTQ5o6nD8Yf4tMmy6InYNTI4sNGhorTJxvc0MDC8/qOs0fvViN Ne2XCjoUFudGlxdWUgKDE5MTItMTk0OSkgUG9yY2VsYWluIFRlYXBvdCA1MjggQ2hpbmF3YXJlIDQ wMCxJbnZpdGF0aW9uIFZpc2l0ICE=?=