,2760 ===* Subject: Re: HP 33s > Is it possible to store simple notes and equations in the calculator > to reference during tests and quizzes? Yes. The HP 33s (and similar machines) make use of the fact that equations (any sequence of letters, numbers, etc.) aren't evaluated when you simply enter them into a program, and you can use such equations to display text prompts to users during program execution. (Or you can just go back and list the program's contents line by line.) That being said, since you're presumably being allowed notes/equations on this test/quiz anyway, it's generally a lot faster and easier to resort to the low-tech paper and pencil approach. If you haven't opened your 33s yet, you might want to exchange it for a 35s... it has a lot of nice additions relative to the 33s. (Although it's no better at storing notes. :-) ) === Subject: Re: HP 33s > The HP 33s (and similar machines) make use of the fact that equations > (any sequence of letters, numbers, etc.) aren't evaluated when you simply > enter them into a program, and you can use such equations to display text > prompts to users during program execution. (Or you can just go back and list > the program's contents line by line.) It was also smart to have the financial calcs (17b/19b) change their original solve operation (18C) -- the latter demanded syntax verification upon *entry*, hence you could input *only* valid algebraic formulas; the others defer validation, only if you try to CALCulate with it, so that the solve application turned into an any text application as well. -[ ]- === Subject: Re: HP 33s >> Is it possible to store simple notes and equations in the calculator >> to reference during tests and quizzes? Yes. The HP 33s (and similar machines) make use of the fact that equations >(any sequence of letters, numbers, etc.) aren't evaluated when you simply >enter them into a program, and you can use such equations to display text >prompts to users during program execution. (Or you can just go back and list >the program's contents line by line.) He is asking about NOTES... A.L. === Subject: Re: HP 33s >>Yes. The HP 33s (and similar machines) make use of the fact that >>equations >>(any sequence of letters, numbers, etc.) aren't evaluated He is asking about NOTES... In my book a sequence of letters, numbers, etc. is effectively the same as notes. And I did point out that it probably wasn't the best approach, just that strictly speaking, yes, you can use an 33s to store notes. === Subject: Re: HP 33s >>Yes. The HP 33s (and similar machines) make use of the fact that >>equations >>(any sequence of letters, numbers, etc.) aren't evaluated > He is asking about NOTES... In my book a sequence of letters, numbers, etc. is effectively the same as > notes. And I did point out that it probably wasn't the best approach, just that > strictly speaking, yes, you can use an 33s to store notes. A major limitation to me is finding the correct note or formula once it is input. I believe 33s and 35s programming is the same and the limitation of single letter labels and variables, 26 maximum labels, would be a major pain for trying to recall the particular wanted material. These calculators have minimal text handling capability compared to the HP 4x graphing series. On the other hand I have seen someone offering preprogrammed 33s calculators for some professional tests for $199 on Amazon or Ebay as I recall. Rich W === Subject: Re: HP 33s >Yes. The HP 33s (and similar machines) make use of the fact that >equations >(any sequence of letters, numbers, etc.) aren't evaluated >> He is asking about NOTES... In my book a sequence of letters, numbers, etc. is effectively the same as >notes. And I did point out that it probably wasn't the best approach, just that >strictly speaking, yes, you can use an 33s to store notes. > .. in the same sense as you can empty swimming pool with tea spoon... A.L. === Subject: Re: HP 33s [re notes on 33s, via equation feature] > .. in the same sense as you can empty swimming pool with tea spoon... Didn't confuse-such say: A transfer of 1000 gallons begins with a single teaspoon Anyway, Just a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down Or conversely, Just a spoonful of ipecac makes everything come back up -- === Subject: Re: HP 33s On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 15:36:59 -0500, John H Meyers >[re notes on 33s, via equation feature] >> .. in the same sense as you can empty swimming pool with tea spoon... Didn't confuse-such say: >A transfer of 1000 gallons begins with a single teaspoon Anyway, >Just a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down Or conversely, >Just a spoonful of ipecac makes everything come back up > And spoon of in barrel of honey... > you might want to wait for my new hplua release before hacking it! i've rehosted the whole show so that lua runs as a calculator with a > graphical front end. this is necessary to turn lua into a virtual > calculator and have graphics together with the requisite symbology > such as greek letters, and internationlisation in general. Cool! I had no idea you were working on a new Lua frontend. Count me in for anything you need. I assume you are still using hpgcc libraries to deal with the hardware? In that case, if you need any special API that you would like us to include for you, just let me know and I'll make it happen. > what i'd like to be able to do now is call saturn builtins :-) This is a bit of a problem, I've studied the subject long enough and it's not easy to do a 'hot' return into an hpgcc application from the emulator. I think the real solution is to write equivalent routines in Lua (or C). The Lua environment is open enough for people to be able to easily add routines and libraries. If your calculator is usable, expect people to jump in and start coding good routines. It may take some time, but the environment will grow to a complete platform. Claudio === Subject: Re: Calculator defined i need to do some code tidy up before i check it all into sourceforge. rehosted the lua environment into that. part of the reason is so that the whole show is more portable and so i can move the graphical environment to any platform. like one with more pixels :-) a random idea: could we emulate the saturn ourselves? im thinking that C code to emulate the basic saturn chip wouldnt be very large. then we simply find out where in the ROM various saturn implementations live and emulate those routines. im assuming that we only want to call self contained subroutines and not those that hit the metal or access parts of the specific hardware (like IO), otherwise it would be the same as re-implementing all of HPs emulator! === Subject: Re: Calculator defined > [..] > a random idea: could we emulate the saturn ourselves? im thinking that C code to > emulate the basic saturn chip wouldnt be very large. > Ahem. Maybe you heard of Emu48, or even x48... These are available with source, so you culd take a look into Saturn emulation mechanics... HTH Raymond === Subject: i'm online...!!! i've got my own computer now...!!! a macbook something, the black one, but not the pro, and i selected the 'default' setting on the browser linkup, and it connected me to the internet...??? i don't know exactly how that works, but until i get caught, i'll be posting more often, with longer rants. === Subject: Re: i'm online...!!! > i've got my own computer now...!!! > a macbook something, the black one, but not the pro, > and i selected the 'default' setting on the browser linkup, and it > connected me to the internet...??? > i don't know exactly how that works, but until i get caught, i'll be > posting more often, with longer rants. Hi TranslucentAmoebae. Glad you got your own PC and looking forward to reading your rants (IIRC, you're a tad too humble naming those as rants ;-)) See you on the group. Subject: Re: i'm online...!!! > i've got my own computer now...!!! > a macbook something, the black one, but not the pro, > and i selected the 'default' setting on the browser linkup, and it > connected me to the internet...??? > i don't know exactly how that works, but until i get caught, i'll be > posting more often, with longer rants. can you start ranting on what you know about the hp50g? i don't have an hp50...!!! i'm still klunking along with an ancient 48gx... also; i have to get a cable for it, and what is the current definative communications program that will work with a mac/osx ( which i hate..!!! it looks just like a wintel os, all the nice, easy things about i've got my own computer now...!!! > a macbook something, the black one, but not the pro, > and i selected the 'default' setting on the browser linkup, and it > connected me to the internet...??? > i don't know exactly how that works, but until i get caught, i'll be > posting more often, with longer rants. > can you start ranting on what you know about the hp50g? i don't have an hp50...!!! i'm still klunking along with an ancient > 48gx... > also; i have to get a cable for it, and what is the current definative > communications program that will work with a mac/osx ( which i > hate..!!! it looks just like a wintel os, all the nice, easy things > about Nothing shown on the HP 50C drivers page for different operating > systems that I can see. Sure it is not built into the operating > system already? Surprising how many devices XP recognizes No, it seems it's not. The SD card works fine anyway, and the usb cable provides power to the calc regardless of any driver. > automatically and installs drivers for. === Subject: N Size Battery Cheap Source For those who are still feeding an HP41, 28C or other older HP calculator that takes N size batteries here is the least expensive source I have found. http://www.batterywarehousedirect.com/2.html?m5:cat=%2FN They offer a pack of 48 Energizer N size alkaline batteries for $28.32. This is phenominally inexpensive compared to what my local drug store wants for them. Not near as cheap as for AAA batteries but this is a lot less common battery any more. Any one know of a U.S. source for N size NIMH batteries? I found one in GB but that is a bit far. Rich W === Subject: Re: HP Communications for Macintosh? It doesn't seem to work for we with the HP50g though. > Has anyone else had this problem? > Any work arrounds? It should work. I've upgraded my HP49G+ to the 2.10 firmware, and HPConnect still works just fine - and I've had a couple of positive comments from people who have used it with a real HP50G. === Subject: Re: Firmware Update 49G+ <13cpk238a1kfd14@corp.supernews.com > I have one of these calculators, which has always been a bit dodgy for me. > In an attempt to alleviate some of the issues I updated the firmware to > HP49-B Revision #2.05-4. This version made quite a large improvement, > especially in battery life. > Recently I purchased a 50G (I have a hard time resisting HP Calcs) and as > part of this decided to upgrade the ROM to the latest on the HP site. I > tried the connectivity kit (no joy) and using an SD card. The SD card > worked and now my 50G reports version HP50-C Revision #2.09 > I also saw that this firmware should work on my 49G+, so I tried loading > it without any luck; I get an error partway through the update. Is there a > known problem with the newer firmware and the 49G+? Is maybe there a > different intermediate firmeware that I need to use before loading 2.09 or > whatever else is current to the 49G+?? Firm ware ??? I upgraded my 49g+ last month I had problems with loading. Turns out the SD card was the problem. I bought a SanDisk 256MB and it worked first time. === Subject: Solving or Evaluating Limits in HP-48g Hi people... i`ve been searching in the old posts for an answer... but nothing is very clear for me... it`s possible to evaluate limits in HP-48g standard..? without memory expansions or libraries...? === Subject: Re: Solving or Evaluating Limits in HP-48g > Is it possible to evaluate limits in HP48g standard..? > without memory expansions or libraries...? 48G (original, rather than Gii/Gs in new series) generally takes symbolic derivatives without problem, so if L'Hopital's rule applies, why not? But one should make sure it does apply: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/math99/math99169.htm http://mathworld.wolfram.com/LHospitalsRule.html [rigor, mortis?] So why is it called L'Hopital's rule? (rather than Bernoulli?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'H.99pital's_rule The above historical note is almost enough to remind one of Tom Lehrer's satire on Lobachevsky: http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/lobachev.htm http://www.casualhacker.net/tom.lehrer/revisited.html#lobachevsky There seems to be a simple program already suggested, which is plenty small enough for 48G (hope it works): http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=hopital&hp48=1 %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ header for cable transfer only @ LIMIT, by Bruno Barberi Gnecco << -> A B C D << A C .d B C .d DUP IF C D 2 ->LIST | 0 == THEN C D LIMIT ELSE / C D 2 ->LIST | END >> @ End === Subject: Re: Solving or Evaluating Limits in HP-48g Is it possible to evaluate limits in HP48g standard..? > without memory expansions or libraries...? 48G (original, rather than Gii/Gs in new series) > generally takes symbolic derivatives without problem, > so if L'Hopital's rule applies, why not? But one should make sure it does apply:http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/math99/math99169.htmhttp://mathwo rld.wolfram.com/LHospitalsRule.html[rigor, mortis?] So why is it called L'Hopital's rule? (rather than Bernoulli?)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'H?pital's rule The above historical note is almost enough to remind one > of Tom Lehrer's satire on Lobachevsky:http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/lobachev.htmhttp://www.c asualhacker.net/tom.lehrer/revisited.html#lobachevsky There seems to be a simple program already suggested, > which is plenty small enough for 48G (hope it works):http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=hopital&hp48=1 %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ header for cable transfer only > @ LIMIT, by Bruno Barberi Gnecco A B C D > << A C .d B C .d DUP > IF C D 2 ->LIST | 0 == > THEN C D LIMIT > ELSE / C D 2 ->LIST | > END > @ End time... I didn`t remember L'H?pital Rule... So much time without a good review for calculus... :D === Subject: Re: Solving or Evaluating Limits in HP-48g On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 22:06:21 -0500: > http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=hopital&hp48=1 > %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ header for cable transfer only > @ LIMIT, by Bruno Barberi Gnecco A B C D Oh, it's not exactly self-evident what are A, B, C, D. Bruno includes a text document in his zip file (which ought to be read in entirety), but to be brief: 4: 'x^2-1' (numerator) 3: 'x-1' (denominator) 2: 'x' (variable) 1: 1 (limit [at]) -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Solving or Evaluating Limits in HP-48g > Hi people... i`ve been searching in the old posts for an answer... but > nothing is very clear for me... it`s possible to evaluate limits in > HP-48g standard..? without memory expansions or libraries...? By the way, one more question... Do exist a command that allows the user to know it`s battery level? === Subject: what to do with the .bin file after converting hi everyone, i have a program that does not seem to work in my emulator. i used emu48. as what the helpful guys in this forum has thought me(john and gian) to drag and drop the program to the emulator, name the program, then STO. i found the program name in the var soft menu, but when i execute it, i shows the code that is the same when i drag and drop the program. what do you think went wrong? i also tried to save it to directory 2 by :2:(name_of_program) but still the same thing happened. so my last resort was to convert it to binary by hpbinasc it produced the .bin file, and still i have the same thing happening, i cannot run the program. can anyone please help me on how to run it? the program is http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/science/civil/concrete.zip elly === Subject: Re: what to do with the .bin file after converting ellyu...@gmail.com ha scritto: > hi everyone, > i have a program that does not seem to work in my emulator. i used > emu48. as what the helpful guys in this forum has thought me(john and > gian) to drag and drop the program to the emulator, name the program, > then STO. i found the program name in the var soft menu, but when i > execute it, i shows the code that is the same when i drag and drop the > program. what do you think went wrong? i also tried to save it to > directory 2 by :2:(name_of_program) but still the same thing happened. > so my last resort was to convert it to binary by hpbinasc it > produced the .bin file, and still i have the same thing happening, i > cannot run the program. can anyone please help me on how to run it? > the program is http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/science/civil/concrete.zip > elly Hi Elly. Looking at the programs of the Concrete package, they are plain text UserRPL listings, each one preceded by the %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); header. That header is needed for cable transferring the files from the PC to the calc. So I think that you have two choices (at least): 1 - type the programs manually into your emulator, neglecting the heading just described and substituting the digraphs with the appropriate keyboard symbol (for example << shall be replaced by the correct program opening delimiter, and so on - for a description of the most common digraphs and many other helpful information, please see (guess who the author is ;-) ) Then you'll want to store the program with a name of your choice and run it. 2 - I would do as follows: - drag-and-drop the program into the emulator window; - edit it manually (pressing the [DOWN CURSOR] arrow, a shortcut fot the EDITB (= EditBest) command, which handles a stack object opening the most suitable environment from time to time) and delete the %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); header; - save the changes by pressing [ENTER] (so a new purified ;-) form of the object is put on the stack again); - run the IN program you should already have stored in the emulator; it is one of the usual, I'd say, little gems by JHM's ;-) and you can find it in the following post: which is, in its entirety, veeery enlightening :-) Last but not least: don't complain for being a newbie - I myself am afraid I'll never be nothing but a newbie when it comes to HP calcs ;-)) Hope this helps a bit. Giancarlo === Subject: Re: what to do with the .bin file after converting > hi everyone, > i have a program that does not seem to work in my emulator. i used > emu48. as what the helpful guys in this forum has thought me(john and > gian) to drag and drop the program to the emulator, name the program, > then STO. i found the program name in the var soft menu, but when i > execute it, i shows the code that is the same when i drag and drop the > program. what do you think went wrong? i also tried to save it to > directory 2 by :2:(name_of_program) but still the same thing happened. > so my last resort was to convert it to binary by hpbinasc it > produced the .bin file, and still i have the same thing happening, i > cannot run the program. can anyone please help me on how to run it? > the program is http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/science/civil/concrete.zip > elly Hi Elly. Looking at the programs of the Concrete package, they are plain text > UserRPL listings, each one preceded by the %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); > header. That header is needed for cable transferring the files from > the PC to the calc. So I think that you have two choices (at least): 1 - type the programs manually into your emulator, neglecting the > heading just described and substituting the digraphs with the > appropriate keyboard symbol (for example << shall be replaced by > the correct program opening delimiter, and so on - for a description > of the most common digraphs and many other helpful information, please > see (guess who the author is ;-) ) Then you'll want to store the program with a name of your choice and > run it. 2 - I would do as follows: > - drag-and-drop the program into the emulator window; > - edit it manually (pressing the [DOWN CURSOR] arrow, a shortcut fot > the EDITB (= EditBest) command, which handles a stack object opening > the most suitable environment from time to time) and delete the %%HP: > T(3)A(D)F(.); header; > - save the changes by pressing [ENTER] (so a new purified ;-) form > of the object is put on the stack again); > - run the IN program you should already have stored in the emulator; > it is one of the usual, I'd say, little gems by JHM's ;-) and you can > find it in the following post: > which is, in its entirety, veeery enlightening :-) Last but not least: don't complain for being a newbie - I myself am > afraid I'll never be nothing but a newbie when it comes to HP > calcs ;-)) Hope this helps a bit. > Giancarlo thank you very much gian for always prompt in answering my questions gian, but i have a problem on how to implement the things that john had said in his post about transferring things from pc to calculator. how do i store and execute the in command? thanx! elly === Subject: Re: what to do with the .bin file after converting > thank you very much gian for always prompt in answering my questions > gian, but i have a problem on how to implement the things that john > had said in his post about transferring things from pc to calculator. > how do i store and execute the in command? thanx! elly Hi elly. You just have to manually key the program in, paying special attention to a couple of things: 1) replace the digraphs (<< , -> , >>) with their respective symbols (opening program delimiter, right arrow, closing program delimiter) you can pick from the CHARS panel ([RIGHT SHIFT][EVAL] 2) double check the hexadecimal addresses the program makes use of (always recommendable when using SYSEVALs ;-) Terminate keying by pressing [ENTER] then key: 'IN' [ENTER] [STO] and select the appropriate softkey in the [VAR] menu, and you're done :-) Hope this helps. Giancarlo === Subject: Re: what to do with the .bin file after converting On Aug 24, 5:38 pm, Giancarlo thank you very much gian for always prompt in answering my questions > gian, but i have a problem on how to implement the things that john > had said in his post about transferring things from pc to calculator. > how do i store and execute the in command? thanx! > elly Hi elly. > You just have to manually key the program in, paying special attention > to a couple of things: > 1) replace the digraphs (<< , -> , >>) with their respective > symbols (opening program delimiter, right arrow, closing program > delimiter) you can pick from the CHARS panel ([RIGHT SHIFT][EVAL] > 2) double check the hexadecimal addresses the program makes use of > (always recommendable when using SYSEVALs ;-) Terminate keying by pressing [ENTER] then key: 'IN' > [ENTER] > [STO] and select the appropriate softkey in the [VAR] menu, and you're > done :-) Hope this helps. > Giancarlo thank you very much gian and mats, i had made the in program work now. it sure is very helpful rather than typing all the source code in... why do you think the program says that Then error: undefined name is it the program that is faulty or its just not compatible with the calculator? now i know how to convert programs i copy and pasted to the emulator, thanx to everybody, specially gian and john! cheers! elly === Subject: Re: what to do with the .bin file after converting >... why do you think the program > says that Then error: undefined name is it the program that is > faulty or its just not compatible with the calculator? No strange reason - it's just that, as the CONCRETE.TXT file says: CBM is used to input information and is called by the analysis programs. If the user chooses not to input new information, analysis is run on existing values. This is useful when a user has already input information and then only wants to change one variable (say area of steel) which can be done by hand before running the program. So you should use CBM as the first module, then, whenever you don't need to re-enter new data, you can call one of the other programs directly. The error is due to the fact that every single module: RCBA TBMA DRCBA BETA VCAP seems to expect some value(s) for some variable(s) to have already been stored. > now i know how > to convert programs i copy and pasted to the emulator, thanx to > everybody, specially gian and john! cheers! > You're welcome :-) Giancarlo === Subject: Re: what to do with the .bin file after converting On Aug 24, 8:05 pm, Giancarlo ... why do you think the program > says that Then error: undefined name is it the program that is > faulty or its just not compatible with the calculator? No strange reason - it's just that, as the CONCRETE.TXT file says: > CBM is used to input information and is called by the analysis > programs. If the user chooses not to input new information, analysis > is run on existing values. This is useful when a user has already > input information and then only wants to change one variable (say area > of steel) which can be done by hand before running the program. So you should use CBM as the first module, then, whenever you don't > need to re-enter new data, you can call one of the other programs > directly. > The error is due to the fact that every single module: > RCBA TBMA DRCBA BETA VCAP > seems to expect some value(s) for some variable(s) to have already > been stored. > now i know how > to convert programs i copy and pasted to the emulator, thanx to > everybody, specially gian and john! cheers! You're welcome :-) Giancarlo hehe... how could i miss that text file, i only read the .doc file thinking that the txt file is part of the programs. thank you very much gian. hope to hear from you again soon, very soon maybe because i still have a lot of questions. thanx! elly === Subject: Re: what to do with the .bin file after converting > On Aug 24, 2:52 pm, Giancarlo ellyu...@gmail.com ha scritto: > hi everyone, > i have a program that does not seem to work in my emulator. i used > emu48. as what the helpful guys in this forum has thought me(john and > gian) to drag and drop the program to the emulator, name the program, > then STO. i found the program name in the var soft menu, but when i > execute it, i shows the code that is the same when i drag and drop the > program. what do you think went wrong? i also tried to save it to > directory 2 by :2:(name_of_program) but still the same thing happened. > so my last resort was to convert it to binary by hpbinasc it > produced the .bin file, and still i have the same thing happening, i > cannot run the program. can anyone please help me on how to run it? > the program is http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/science/civil/concrete.zip > elly >> Hi Elly. >> Looking at the programs of the Concrete package, they are plain text >> UserRPL listings, each one preceded by the %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); >> header. That header is needed for cable transferring the files from >> the PC to the calc. >> So I think that you have two choices (at least): >> 1 - type the programs manually into your emulator, neglecting the >> heading just described and substituting the digraphs with the >> appropriate keyboard symbol (for example << shall be replaced by >> the correct program opening delimiter, and so on - for a description >> of the most common digraphs and many other helpful information, please >> see (guess who the author is ;-) >> ) >> Then you'll want to store the program with a name of your choice and >> run it. >> 2 - I would do as follows: >> - drag-and-drop the program into the emulator window; >> - edit it manually (pressing the [DOWN CURSOR] arrow, a shortcut fot >> the EDITB (= EditBest) command, which handles a stack object opening >> the most suitable environment from time to time) and delete the %%HP: >> T(3)A(D)F(.); header; >> - save the changes by pressing [ENTER] (so a new purified ;-) form >> of the object is put on the stack again); >> - run the IN program you should already have stored in the emulator; >> it is one of the usual, I'd say, little gems by JHM's ;-) and you can >> find it in the following post: >> which is, in its entirety, veeery enlightening :-) >> Last but not least: don't complain for being a newbie - I myself am >> afraid I'll never be nothing but a newbie when it comes to HP >> calcs ;-)) >> Hope this helps a bit. >> Giancarlo thank you very much gian for always prompt in answering my questions > gian, but i have a problem on how to implement the things that john > had said in his post about transferring things from pc to calculator. > how do i store and execute the in command? thanx! elly > You can simply use the Connectivity Kit (Conn4x) to transfer those files directly from your PC to the calculator. Then you may transfer them back to your PC in binary mode (resulting in files with an .hp ending) and drag & drop them to the emulator. This is in short how I would do this. John mentioned all the details and more about transferring so it's maybe overkill but nevertheless worth reading... :-) and as Giancarlo said I'd really put the IN program (the very first one in the second referenced post) on the emulator. mats === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? <46cacd3e$0$18803$4c368faf@roadrunner.com > Those students should take up fine arts or something. I learned RPN in > 20 minutes. Two years before my dad retired, I gave him my HP32-C. He > learned RPN in 20 minutes and exlaimed that he couldn't believe he > fumbled with algebraic for 11 years! Those student probably will end up in fine arts or something, but > they still have to take math in high school. That is why TI wins. It > is simply designed to be more universal toward average user than HP > is. Also you are falsely assuming, that if one happen to be talented > in math and able to learn RPN in 20 minutes that he or she will end up > liking it. That is not true. There is very large community of math and > programming talented people on the TI discussion group that dislike I thought this was the TI discussion group, I must be in the wrong place. Sorry, gotto go back home. > RPN and lists that as a main reason, they will never use HP > calculator. They, or we or perhaps us. Please clarify. In addition it is naive to assume, that if you personally happen to be > talented and like RPN, everybody else must be the same. This is in > most cases ridiculous and completely empty argument. The real world The real world uses computers, not calculators. > uses statistics and in such TI clearly wins many times over HP. HP > dominated the calculator market and lost its leadership to TI. So The calculator market moved from professionals to 9th grade education segment. > excuse, that the HP lacks recognition doesnt really hold the water. > We both saved more than 20 minutes in keystrokes....LOL. > Scott Chapin > JB === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > I had this guy on another forum, saying that the only reason most > students use Ti's is due to contracts that Texas Instruments had with > the schools. Such as the school would give away some free calculators > and supplies and by this the school would have to agree to recommend > only Ti calculators. is this true, and if so is there any documentation backing it. I think that TI managed to outsmart HP in the education market since many years. Seriously,the current situation is the result of the work of TI with educators and their capability to design and to sell the calculators needed/required by the students and especially high school students. The time HP has tried to catch up,it was too late. Moreover HP made some dramatic errors with both the HP49G and the With the later,HP certainly had a chance to appeal to educators by introducing a new generation of education tools. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > The point is, that such equations are enterd with reordering when one > become familiar with RPN. The subject equation: (1+2*(3+4*5+6))*7+8*(9+10*11+12) Any experienced HP user you would enter as follows: 4 E 5 * 3 + 6 + 2 * 1 + 7 * 1 0 E 1 1 * 1 2 + 9 + 8 * + Perhaps for those experienced only in Classic RPN with its limitation of having only four stack registers available, that is. If I wanted to do it on an RPL model with its variable depth stack using an RPN sequence, I'd simply press the keys in the following sequence 1 2 3 4 5*+6+*+7*8 9 10 11*+12+*+ Note that there's no real need to press the ENTER key for the above. Press either the SPC key or the ENTER key where I left a space between numbers. But if presented with an expression already in algebraic syntax, then I'd be far more likely to use an algebraic object: '(1+2*(3+4*5+6))*7+8*(9+10*11+12)' ENTER EVAL I entered the above from the command line editor, but it could also be entered from the equation writer, in which case the ' ' delimiters wouldn't be used. RPL gives you the choice of using an RPN sequence (typically good for story problems, as most real-world problems are) or using an algebraic object (typically good for copying an expression from a textbook or handbook). > On TI it is much more difficult to quickly come up with the effective > entering order and you will end up with more keystrokes no matter > what. On TI with the subject equation I would probably give up trying > to come up with optimized order, since there doesn't seem to be one > that is clearly more effective and just enter as written: ( 1 + 2 * ( 3 + 4 * 5 + 6 ) ) * 7 + 8 * ( 9 + 1 0 * 1 1 + 1 2 ) E You are wlecome with proposing more effective entering order that > can beat RPN above. -- James === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > But even I hate RPN notation when it is used in programming... > I'm referring to manipulation on the stack. I tend to write my > programs skipping local variables, but just manipulating the stack, > since these are generally simple to write, efficient in size and fast. > For short programs it is not that difficult. But trying to decipher a > month later is a challenge RPN on stack manipulation is truly cryptic > to read. Who forced you to do it the hard way when specific easy ways (local variables, use of formulas) were built in? You caused your own problem, like someone buying a car with Cruise control but refusing to enable it, then saying how tiring is this brand of car, because you constantly have to watch and adjust the speed :) > The point is, that the more self describing language it is, the less > comments are needed to decipher it and it is easier to debug or modify > it later. So why don't you take your own advice, and use the self-describing features of named [local] variables, formulas, etc? Maybe you should write in ML, then you'll *really* have something even more cryptic to complain about :) > What you described is some improvements to the algebra, that > manufacturers selected to add. Interestingly I've never thought about > precedence of %operator, since in math the % is not really an > algebraic operator that is recognized world wide. You have a point, > that with the addition of operators that are not strictly mathematical... Oh, is % in MTH REAL by mistake? > different calculators will produce different results depending on how > the manufacturer interpreted precedence of this artificial operator. > I was more thinking about example such as: 2+3*4= In this case it should always produce 14. On some older calculators > that was not the case but I don't consider them neither algebraic nr > RPN. Any modern algebraic calculator should intepret this statement > correctly. Four-bangers are supposed to get 20 -- they don't have more registers (or a stack) to save up as yet unused operands (and operators). Naturally, calculators intended for use in algebra take a different approach, with no difference between brands (except possibly how many levels of unused operands they can save). But note that just plain +,= or -,+ is unpredictable between different manufacturer; it uses a saved constant, the behavior of which varies arbitrarily between brands (and chip suppliers). Figure out how Sharp logic gets a Fibonacci sequence! (it's not a kludge, it's a feature! :) The bottom line of all this talk is that calculators which look algebraic vary all over the map as to how they work, while you can walk up to most any RPN calculator that you've never seen before, and already know what it does. But no matter -- lest we forget, all HP graphing calculators are fully equipped to handle algebraics, exactly as they should, and using RPN is an option that one can take or leave. > [re his daughter as casual user] > Casual generally outnumbers professional in every field. > That is why casual user drives what is mass market > and professional drives niche market. So being a professional engineer, which market do you buy your tools from? Is there anything wrong (or even other than inevitable) about different products having values that appeal to different audiences? Do you want HP to go for the lowest-level, widest possible market? What, if anything, should differentiate an HP calculator from a TI? Why not just suggest to TI whatever improvements you want, and forget about HP? >> If all they did was browse web sites, watch videos on-line, >> and chat, how could they tell the difference? > Difference is in being common with peers etc. If every one else is > using for example MS Office why bother with being incompatible. Even > messaging is an issue. Lots of young people use AOL messenger (or > whatever it is called). They don't care that Linux has one that is > able to communicate with AOL. The point is that it is different > than the one their peers are using. That's exactly what I expected to hear, in the end ;-) Nothing to do with better, just what peers use, which is overridingly important to that age group. The rich get richer, the gambler with simply more cash in pocket is more likely to wipe out his opponent, regardless of a little more or less skill, and a big market share, once gained, has some self-perpetuating momentum, for TI, for Microsoft, and everywhere else. > In case of my daughter the last straw was actually > that she needed to install something later that was not > in the initial Linux package and she wanted to do it herself. > You can do it without any help on Windows in 99% of cases using simple GUI > installer. If the author has so provided. > When you try to do it on Linux, you end up searching > internet for help. The first thing you discover is, that the help > provided is horrible. In many cases you have so called gurus and > experts who can't lower themselves to the level of knowledge of the > newbie and their answers are as helpfull as describing 8 years old > tunneling effect using Schrodinger equation. But this is not the > worst. The worst is that in order to install something in most cases > you to discover that you have to download number of cryptic packages > and install them using strange crypting commands from console. Just like the free calc software found on www.hpcalc.org; some authors have made it simple and foolproof, while others' stuff only works if you can guess that it has to be installed in a variable with just a certain exact name, in CAPS, that even the instructions may not have mentioned -- all this is about the quality (or laziness) of the author, rather than about the quality of the system the stuff is made for. If you go download a Firefox or Opera browser, however, or Thunderbird email, is it harder to install on Linux than on Windows? > I can add from myself, that equally irritating is trying to make some > hardware set up and work under Linux. Why is it that in order to set up WiFi > or printer or change settings in most cases you have to memorize and > execute cryptinc commands from console. I think this is the biggest > problem associated with Linux crowd. They are very poor in > uderstanding customer. Microsoft is light years ahead of Linux in > uderstanding their average mass market customer. The problem with > Linux is, that if you don't get that, you can only dream of beating > Windows. I think you are identifying the wrong culprit. Microsoft isn't the vendor of Windows add-ons, and Linux isn't a company -- it's in the hands of third party vendors, whose personal values determine the outcome. Microsoft makes an author's life pretty difficult, erecting a high barrier to entry -- it's like a poll tax that once kept commoners out of the voting booth, and it improves the environment much the same way that a high cover charge keeps the less affluent (and well-dressed) out of the pricier places :) The second culprit is vendors who won't bother to enter the market; why spend so much, when the big returns come from Windows customers? That's a function only of Windows being bigger, market-share wise, not better. When it comes to those who have the means, however, and who decide to enter the market, then what's the difference? > I had Windows since 3.1 version and I'm still waiting for this virus > that will infect my machine :-) Plug it in here and see ;) A few years ago, we couldn't even begin using any W2K system on our network, because the instant they were plugged in, they got infected by Blaster or Welchia, which are among worms which don't need any attachment to spread, and for which Windows had no way for any user to block them. We spend a great deal of our time tracking down infected computers that flood our network with ARPs and other attacks, and 100% of those turn out to be running Windows. > Sure, you can improve on some simple MS tools. > These were not meant to be top of the line products. Exactly; that's why we all go around replacing them. > Try to improve on MS professional tools > such as Visual Studio or Office. For which you pay several times as much as for Windows itself? Of course, we're not talking about your daughter's use any longer, are we? (not VS for sure, maybe Office?) > Open Office is a nice toy for simple tasks but falls well short > when some more features such as programming are needed. Programming? Your daughter needs an office suite with programming? It seems to me that you're always arguing both sides at once. > I find people blindly bashing Microsoft because it is so popular > but often it is them who spread FUD not the M$ :-) And why do others blindly bash Linux? Nice sparring with you again, Jacek :) Hope your daughter is happy now; if not, she can always find peers ready to help her, and no more need for Dad :) -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:01:00 -0500, John H Meyers > >> The point is, that the more self describing language it is, the less >> comments are needed to decipher it and it is easier to debug or modify >> it later. So why don't you take your own advice, and use the self-describing >features of named [local] variables, formulas, etc? Maybe you should write in ML, then you'll *really* have >something even more cryptic to complain about :) > FORTH is good enough. I have my own programs, 10-15 years old. When I look on them, I am really impressed: the guy who developed them was really smart but I have no clue what they are doing and how. Deciphering is hopeless. I have also old programs wrtten in BASICA, on PC with 4.77 MHz clock. I have no problems to understand what they are doing and how. Somebody clever told that we write programs for other humans, not for machines. He was right. A.L. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > Who forced you to do it the hard way when specific easy ways > (local variables, use of formulas) were built in? Even with local variables the syntax is not as clean to read as it is in TI Basic. The language of the loops is also less clean than BASIC. Just compare examples given in the TI manual and HP manual to see the difference between two languages. There is no doubt, that TI programming is a lot more to a little more readable depending if HP user uses mixture of algebraic and local variables, or pure RPN manipulation of the stack. > You caused your own problem, like someone buying a car with Cruise control > but refusing to enable it, then saying how tiring is this brand of car, > because you constantly have to watch and adjust the speed :) It is not really a problem for me. I use this style because I like short typing and quick programming even if it is at the expense of readibility. In fact I can argue, that this enables HP to be a macro capable calculator, where TI does not really has such functionality. What I mean by taht is that if I need to have let's say 10 repetable short operations such as SQRT(a/b+c) to calculate for various values of a,b and c I'm more than likely assume that a,b,c will be on stack in that order and quickly write: << ROT ROT / + SQRT >> store it, reuse it and finally get rid of the macro when I'm done. On TI I wouldn't think about writing such tool for 10 or 20 temporary operations. First Basic would require more keystrokes, second, it does not have anything remotely silmilar to stack so all had to be done either by storing data in variables or through the function parameters. I think in this case the critical amount of repetable computations that justify writing such function is higher than it is on HP due to the overhead of typing it and then amount of typing when used per single usage. But if you compare my macro listed above with TI function synatx: Funtcion example(a,b,c) return sqrt(a/b+c) End (I'm not sure if this is proper syntax, I did not used TI for couple of years now, so I don't remember exactly how TI Basic function returns value). Clearly TI function is way more readable than HP macro. My case is probably the extreme of how not to use USER RPL if somebody plan to write large program that require maintenance but I prefer quick and dirty programming. With usage of local variables and algebraic the readibility of HP programs does improve. In the given example probably the most user friendly version would look something like: << -> a,b,c << 'SQRT(a/b+c)' ->NUM > This certainly is much more readable than RPN version but I would still claim, that it is not as good as Basic. And the preformance (if used in long loops) suffers (althoguh not that much). > So why don't you take your own advice, and use the self-describing > features of named [local] variables, formulas, etc? I don't like to mix algebraic and RPN and loose performance. > Maybe you should write in ML, then you'll *really* have > something even more cryptic to complain about :) Not worth it. I don't use calculator for heavy number crunching anymore. For such problems I revert to PC. My HP is more and more just a macro machine where macro is written on the spot to attack some temporary, simple, repetable problem. Larger simple problems end up on the Excel spreadsheet with Visual Basic if special functionality non existent natively is required. Really large problems are either attacked by specialized software if available or using custom C# program on PC. This is unfortunate, but it is a reality. I think convergence of PC tools (many CAD and CAE software now reads or integrates itself with Excel and have front ends programable in some variation of C or .NET) will eventually challenge the existence of advaced calculators. > Oh, is % in MTH REAL by mistake? Why mistake ? My point was, that % is not a widely recognized unique mathematical operator but rater a construct of the calculator manufacturers to help business. That is why it has different implementations between different manufacturers. They simply do not have a standard to guide common implementation. I'm willing to challenge you that if you have two numbers on the stack: 100 120 and you press % key there are two possible answers: 120 (as implemented in HP50g) but also 83.333333 as what is the precentage of 100 in 120 :-) It all depends, how manufacturer implements [%] functionality in relation to the stack. HP have chosen one way, somebody else could chose it differently. So what if it is illogical. There is no standard that forces you to implement it properly. > 2+3*4= > In this case it should always produce 14. On some older calculators > that was not the case but I don't consider them neither algebraic nr > RPN. Any modern algebraic calculator should intepret this statement > correctly. Four-bangers are supposed to get 20 -- they don't have more registers > (or a stack) to save up as yet unused operands (and operators). Yes, but I don't consider them algebraic. They do not adhere to algebraic rules at all and the user is usually warn in the manual that the proper order of operators is responsibility of the user. > But note that just plain +,= or -,+ is unpredictable > between different manufacturer; it uses a saved constant, > the behavior of which varies arbitrarily between brands > (and chip suppliers). Figure out how Sharp logic > gets a Fibonacci sequence! (it's not a kludge, it's a feature! :) Again, you are using extensions to speed up calculations. This has nothing to do with algebra. Proper algebra requires operands to be separated by the + or - operator. This example is not a fair comparison. If you do + with single element on HP stack you won't get anything but a system error so HP is even worse :-) > The bottom line of all this talk is that calculators which > look algebraic vary all over the map as to how they work, > while you can walk up to most any RPN calculator that you've > never seen before, and already know what it does. But no matter -- lest we forget, all HP graphing calculators > are fully equipped to handle algebraics, exactly as they should, > and using RPN is an option that one can take or leave. But so it TI89. There is no ambiguity if you have to enter algebraics exactly and properly without +,= tricks. You enter formula and calculator does proper handling of the operators as defined by math rules. > [re his daughter as casual user] > Casual generally outnumbers professional in every field. > That is why casual user drives what is mass market > and professional drives niche market. So being a professional engineer, which market do you buy your tools from? There are only few manufacturers of automotive assembly line tools :-) You can't buy those in the public store. > Is there anything wrong (or even other than inevitable) > about different products having values > that appeal to different audiences? No, absolutely nothing wrong with it. > Do you want HP to go for the lowest-level, widest possible market? To the contrary. I would like HP to stop wasting time on developing algebraic / history parallel to RPN screen mode altogether in vain attempt to catch up with TI market and put resources into fine tunning and further development of RPN. Possibly they could save money to advertise their product between those who can appreciate RPN and use it in their professional life. I admire TI for not trying to be all functionality for all people and not attempting to implement parallel RPN to lure scientists and engineers away from HP :-) > What, if anything, should differentiate an HP calculator from a TI? If we talking high end, such as HP50 I think, HP should concentrate on being faster and more powerfull algebraically than TI. Should not waste time on implementing parallel algebraic interface. They have limited resources and should concentrate those in areas that are clear HP strengths. In my opinion RPN is it's main (and probably only) reason it is still in existence. It used to be algebra, but frankly I consider TI89 algebra to be on the same level as HP these days. Algebraic HP is a lost cause unless it can outperform significantly TI in algebra and speed for the same price. I don't see that path to be technically realistic in the current calculator market. > Why not just suggest to TI whatever improvements you want, > and forget about HP? Because TI is a market leader and has no reason to invest large sums of money trying to attract small minority of disgruntled users :-) > In case of my daughter the last straw was actually > that she needed to install something later that was not > in the initial Linux package and she wanted to do it herself. > You can do it without any help on Windows in 99% of cases using simple GUI > installer. If the author has so provided. In 99% of Windows software it is the case. It has been many years since I saw last Windows program that required mystic commands from command line to install. The simplest executables these days might in the worst case require user to graphically create shortcut to the exe and move it to Start menu folder in Explorer so they can start it from the programs menu. > Just like the free calc software found onwww.hpcalc.org; > some authors have made it simple and foolproof, while others' stuff > only works if you can guess that it has to be installed in a variable > with just a certain exact name, in CAPS, that even the instructions > may not have mentioned -- all this is about the quality (or laziness) > of the author, rather than about the quality of the system the stuff is made for. You are biased. Just look on any Linux discussion group. Almost ever problem that newwbies are having with Linux is answered there by the advice to: 1) Make sure that you have installed packages: gimtsmimt version 2007.10.57.24 packsrack version 111.49454 2) Make sure you have proper library librarysmiblary vesrion 232344.34343 Go to command line and execute something like: blahblah -c#1/25 !@#$%^ grep - root smoot #25 bigbang .user/ superduper -password 3) And then you should be able to have whatever functionalty you wanted. Even more comic are advices regarding making even simple hardware to function under Linux. Sorry, but this is ridiculous. In most cases those experts do not bother to explain what is even the meaning of the cryptic commnad line switches or the explanation is even more convoluted than the command itself. There libraries and packages suggested very often have different latest version when you look on the internet and a lot of advices still end up being wrong. When I was playing with Linux, many problems were not solved by those type of internet expert advices. > If you go download a Firefox or Opera browser, however, or Thunderbird email, > is it harder to install on Linux than on Windows? I don't know. I gave up on Linux. They lost me couple of years ago and I'm not intending to go back in the near future. Unless Windows becomes pay per use type service, Linux is a lost cause for me due to the lack of polish and lack of software that could match what I have for Windows. Contrary to popular believe Linux is not free. It cost typical Windows user significant amount of time and effort to repartition hard drive, dual boot install Linux, test it and eventually get rid of it. Very often such unfortunate user ends up fresh installing Widnows after Linux disaster is over. It takes several days if not weeks of free time to recover from this experience. Such unfortunate person will think twice about giving Linux second chance. > Microsoft makes an author's life pretty difficult, erecting a high barrier > to entry -- it's like a poll tax that once kept commoners > out of the voting booth, and it improves the environment > much the same way that a high cover charge > keeps the less affluent (and well-dressed) out of the pricier places :) I'm not sure what you mean by that ? How come they make life difficult ? Anybody can write programs that run under Windows and there is no MS fee associated with this. You can get even their development tools such as Visual C++ Express completely free. Where is the difficult part ? > The second culprit is vendors who won't bother to enter the market; > why spend so much, when the big returns come from Windows customers? > That's a function only of Windows being bigger, market-share wise, > not better. No denying. Catch 22 works here. Linux cannot win by being niche and less polished. This will always relegate it to the secondary place and keep chicken and egg problem going. > I had Windows since 3.1 version and I'm still waiting for this virus > that will infect my machine :-) Plug it in here and see ;) I'm plugged all the time. I have broadband @ home (except I do switch it off when not used to save power). > A few years ago, we couldn't even begin using any W2K system > on our network, because the instant they were plugged in, > they got infected by Blaster or Welchia, which are among > worms which don't need any attachment to spread, > and for which Windows had no way for any user to block them. Yes, but it is fixed. Holes are also dicovered in Linux. This just proves, that all software has bugs. Just last week or two weeks ago serious hole was discovered in Firefox as I recall. > We spend a great deal of our time tracking down infected computers > that flood our network with ARPs and other attacks, > and 100% of those turn out to be running Windows. Windows by its market share is the main target of virus writers. Nobody really bothers to attack Linux. That would be very academic exrecise ;-) > Sure, you can improve on some simple MS tools. > These were not meant to be top of the line products. Exactly; that's why we all go around replacing them. I agree, but similarily text editors, file managers etc that are part of the Linux distributions are often equally primitive or completely ommited. This doesn't prove anything. I don't buy Windows to be able to use it with Notepad or Paint. In fact I found, that the same crowd, who blames Microsoft for it's primitive extras shipped with Widnows also is first to charge MS with monopoly abuse, when Microsoft adds some more polished add on to the OS. How many times MS was dragged to court and charged with monopoly abuse because they elected to add some better tool to their OS ? How many times I've seen such charge raised on the Linux discussion group ? But the same Linux users who blame MS for monoploy abuse in different thread laugh a MS primitive Notepad or Paint. Most of the tools that are added to linux packages are really not part of the Linux but freely available from other developers. I can argue, that this is exactly the same with Windows except MS does not package it up front, but you must do it yourself later. I would even argue, that MS probably would be forced to pay licence if they would attempt to package others software into Windows distribution. > Try to improve on MS professional tools > such as Visual Studio or Office. For which you pay several times as much as for Windows itself? FUD ! FUD ! FUD ! :-) MS Office Home and Student version cost about $120 licence per three computers (cheaper than Vista). Microsoft Visual Studio Express is completely free of charge (infinietly cheaper than Vista). Of course, those who cannot afford even $120 for a software that will work for years on three computers each worth about $500 can always install free of charge Open Source toys or use one of those free of charge online office applications from Google etc. > Of course, we're not talking about your daughter's use any longer, > are we? (not VS for sure, maybe Office?) I have two daugters. If we would talk about the other one, your assumption would be very true. She would not be a scientificly oriented person. Bue we are talking about the one that is. She happen to be a student of Bio-Physics at UofM. Don't uderestimate her, because she is a woman :-) > Open Office is a nice toy for simple tasks but falls well short > when some more features such as programming are needed. Programming? Your daughter needs an office suite with programming? She eventually might. I don't know what her proffesors are going to use it for. UofM requires students to use MS OFffice. But I would argue, that even if you don't need programming in Excel now, if you are in science or engineering you will eventually eiter discover need for such functionality and potential lack of it will be a factor. Staying with MS Office is simple a good choice. > It seems to me that you're always arguing both sides at once. Yes. It seems to be my character. > And why do others blindly bash Linux? > === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > This apparently demonstrates the hypnotic power of marketing, > which makes people forget that every HP calculator in this series has > ALWAYS HANDLED ALGEBRAIC FORMULAS IN ADDITION TO RPN Yeah, but poorly. You have to use ' ' brackets and instead of ENTER, EVAL was needed. That is cumbersome. HP was always designed with RPN to be it's underlying operation mode and algebraice was always (even in the 50g model) an afterthought. If you mass marketr consumer demands something to be a major feature, you can win with an afterthought. > But as soon as you *add* the ability to *also* use RPN, > which can only add to its total power, and should not detract > from its algebraic power, that extra capability > somehow becomes a strike against it (I wonder whether > adding the RPN program to a TI calculator similarly cripples it?) Who claims, that addition of algerbraic mode since HP49 (however poorly implemented) is detrimental to the HP ? It is an improvement over what it was, but is is not as big improvement as people would like it to belive and it is weaker than native algebraic mode of TI. Similarly TI RPN mode is a poor ersatz of what is available on the HP. Both extensions are improvements for those who demand it. At the end of the day I want to see how many people really uses algebraic on HP or RPN on TI. I don't have a statistics like that, but I'm willing to bet, that majority of users of HP care less for algebraic mode and majority of users of TI ignore RPN aftermarket software. So for those people it is not an improvement that matters at all. What makes the difference is that RPN on TI was created by bunch of TI useres as and aftermarket unauthorized addition and TI had nothing to do with this. Contrary HP took an apporach of adding alebraic mode beliving, that it will make a market difference. IMHO this was a mistake, beacuse they also wanted to be compatible with RPN user base. In the end the base cared less about algebraic but the effort almost for sure distracted HP resources from improving 48 RPN code to be even more powerfull than what it is today in HP50g > The greater differentiation between HP's CAS line of calculators > and TI's product line, in regard solely to algebraic matters, > is that HP's CAS doesn't match textbooks as well, > and some things are just plain hard to accomplish on it, > even though, as is inevitable between disparate internals, > it betters TI's line at various other particular (and extra) things. So a student who packs one of each is probably the best equipped of all; > maybe the two companies should split off and combine their calculator divisions > and sell only combo packs -- or someone else develop one emulator with two faces -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? JHM: >> every HP calculator in this series has >> ALWAYS HANDLED ALGEBRAIC FORMULAS IN ADDITION TO RPN > Yeah, but poorly. You have to use ' ' brackets and instead of ENTER, > EVAL was needed. Trade in your HP48 for an HP49/50 :) [or even use an AlphaEnter program to automate on old HP48] Even in RPN mode, `3+4` produces 7 (no EVAL) on HP49/50. > HP was always designed with RPN > to be it's underlying operation mode and algebraic was always > (even in the 50g model) an afterthought. > If you mass market consumer demands something to be a major feature, > you can['t] win with an afterthought. Windows was an afterthought to MS-DOS :) > At the end of the day I want to see how many people really uses algebraic on HP > or RPN on TI. I don't have a statistics like that, but I'm willing to > bet, that majority of users of HP care less for algebraic mode and > majority of users of TI ignore RPN aftermarket software. So for those > people it is not an improvement that matters at all. It's available, however. What is the goal of all your discussion, Jacek -- what do you want to be done, in the end? -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? What is the goal of all your discussion, Jacek -- > what do you want to be done, in the end? Nothing really. I like HP50g as it is and I would love to see it being developed further. I'm just tired of those TI consipracy theories created by HP fans. Why we can't face the reality, that TI with it's algebraic interface and it's critical mass market presence is simply a better tool to teach mathematics ? As you once said, you rarely can have everything in one package. HP is a better tool for those who already mastered mathematics and few talented people who cherish being different then the crowd. Those who are just started learning and do not feel inclination to be different are simply better off with TI. We should represent logical thinking and reason and understanding what drives market forces. Instead I see (expressed by some) that nonsensical consipracy theories, misguided elitism and refusal to face the reality. BTW, Linux vs Windows is a very silmilar case. -[ ]- === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption BTW If you point was Hey they totally blew it going to 4 cells I agree. If they had use a good quality switching regulator they could have increased battery life by a good amount. And, actually I over looked the fact that since there is an extra cell, at only 10% more current draw but 30% more voltage, perhaps the battery life is longer. that current than your figure. === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption Well, ok no one seems to dispute that the 30% voltage increase will increase the power by 30%, so I think your statement should have been more like: The most unsurprising thing I determined is that the 50G does not consume significantly more power than the 49G+. Since the 50G has one more battery, it's expected that it will draw more current, resulting in an effective 10-20% greater use of power after subtracting the 30% power increase from the extra cell. This pretty much explains the power increase completely, except for the flash which does not follow the pattern. As for your test conditions, several of the tests require that you run some code or set some conditions to measure it, and I think that for meaningful results you should explain in a repeatable way how you performed those tests. === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption Why don't you see that 30% of that power is just due to the extra battery. Batteries supply current - if the current draw was 50% more you would have a case, but it's not so you don't. Lets look at these cases: 50G/0 49G+/0 Idle 15.5 13.9 +1.6ma +11.5% Blinking 18.8 16.9 +1.9ma +11.2% Plotting 74.4 69.3 +5.1ma +5.2% As you can see, the difference in current draw is pretty minimal. Thats all the battery cares about - how much current you draw. Last I checked they were rated in mah, not watth. I assume most of the other case are infrequent, but what ever you think is the proper mix of the test cases would allow you to calculate the average change in battery life. For me idle is the most frequent case, as I make a calculation then look at it for a while. So I should expect about a 10% decrease in battery life. It's just the physics of how batteries work. === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption > Well, ok no one seems to dispute that the 30% voltage increase will > increase the power by 30%, so I think your statement should have been more > like: The most unsurprising thing I determined is that the 50G does not > consume significantly more power than the 49G+. Since the 50G has one > more battery, it's expected that it will draw more current, resulting > in an effective 10-20% greater use of power after subtracting the 30% > power increase from the extra cell. This pretty much explains the power > increase completely, except for the flash which does not follow the > pattern. No, I disagree entirely. First of all, the 50G effectively consumes something like 50% more power than the 49G+. In other words, it will use up 36 batteries (in 9 sets) in the time it takes a 49G+ to use up 24 batteries (in 8 sets), though the exact ratio does depend on use. Second, your explanation isn't taking into account anything but the most basic solution. It would make sense if the 50G used something like a diode or a resistor to cause a voltage drop because of the extra battery. You seem fairly confident that is what they do. You could certainly be right, but I don't want to make any assumptions without looking inside. To be honest, I never really considered that option because of the inherent inefficiency, as you point out. Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't it make much more sense for them to use a switching regulator? Then there would be no reason to expect it to draw more power than the maximum 10% or so overhead of a regulator. In my second post I did say that the most likely reason for the increase was a poorly implemented voltage regulator. A passive component, which you describe, would be just that, in my opinion. > As for your test conditions, several of the tests require that you run > some code or set some conditions to measure it, and I think that for > meaningful results you should explain in a repeatable way how you > performed those tests. It probably isn't going to make much of a difference, but for the blinking test I pressed a number while at the stack and let the cursor blink. For the plotting test, I plotted 'X^2+Y^2' in Fast3D mode (I used wireframe mode on the 48GX, so in hindsight I should have picked something else that worked equally well on all models, but my goal of the particular test was simply to be CPU intensive). The other tests just consisted of copying ~100 KB files to and from flash and the SD card. The calculators had stock settings except for RPN mode and soft menus. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption > Well, ok no one seems to dispute that the 30% voltage increase will > increase the power by 30%, Actually, according to Ohm's and Joule's laws, a 30% increase in voltage will increase the power not by 30% but by 69%, assuming that the resistance remains unchanged. Also, adding a 4th cell to 3 cells will increase the voltage by 33.333.....% rather than by 30%, and this will increase the power by 78% (77.77777......%) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/ === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption basing on the results you guys have seen, what type of battery suites the hp 50g best? alkaline? Ni-Mh? Ni-Cd? elly === Subject: Re: RPN Calculator in Excel or Java? My particular interest has been picqued by writing code for the HP35s >> and wanting to be able to see the data memory as the algorithm was >> executing. The easiest route to accomplish this might be to use the > source code of an existing emulator that does NOT emulate > the original calculator on the CPU level but one that knows > about something like register contents at runtime. Adding the code to let such an emulator update an extra window > with all the register contents should be feasible - if you > are fluent in the language and GUI framework used in the > chosen emulator. 1533 === Subject: HP graphing calculator power consumption Sorry to start a new thread on this, but that M5 thing go in the way. The most surprising thing I determined is that the 50G consumes significantly more power than the 49G+. Not only does the 50G have one more battery, but it also manages to draw more current, resulting in an effective 40-50% greater use of power. I do not have any explanation for the increase. Well, I have to wonder what at all is surprising about that. No offense, but a second year EE student would have known that in advance. You increase the voltage , you increase the current. While it is not a purely resistive load, to some degree it is. Heres an explanation: Ohm Law As for power consumption, batteries really only care about how much current they are suppling. And if you jack the voltage 30%, even if the the current was the same, guess what happens to the power consumption. (only comparing 50G to 49G+ - apples to apples) Now comparing the current draw, with the exception of the beep and flash and I/O, for the most part it is a constant 2-5 ma difference. As for the flash, I would like to see the unit to unit variation. It would be much more meaningful to state your test conditions and get 10 or 20 of use to try it. Also, it would be meaningful to see what happens as the batteries drain. === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption > Sorry to start a new thread on this, but that M5 thing go in the way. The most surprising thing I determined is that the 50G consumes > significantly more power than the 49G+. Not only does the 50G have > one more battery, but it also manages to draw more current, resulting > in an effective 40-50% greater use of power. I do not have any > explanation for the increase. Well, I have to wonder what at all is surprising about that. No offense, but a second year EE student would have known that in advance. You increase the voltage , you increase the current. While it is not > a purely resistive load, to some degree it is. Heres an explanation: Ohm Law As for power consumption, batteries really only care about how much > current they are suppling. And if you jack the voltage 30%, even if the the current was the same, > guess what happens to the power consumption. So one way to increase the battery lifetime of the 50G would be to remove one of the four batteries and replace it with e.g. a nail or other metal object with an appropriate length? The 50G ought to work well on 3 batteries, since the 49G+ did so .... right? > (only comparing 50G to 49G+ - apples to apples) > Now comparing the current draw, with the exception of the beep and flash > and I/O, for the most part it is a constant 2-5 ma difference. As for the flash, I would like to see the unit to unit variation. It would be much more meaningful to state your test conditions and get > 10 or 20 of use to try it. Also, it would be meaningful to see what > happens as the batteries drain. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN e-mail: pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/ === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption > You increase the voltage , you increase the current. While it is not > a purely resistive load, to some degree it is. Actually, umm... for the past decade or thereabouts, it's been more common to find switching power supplies than linear power supplies in electronics, so as you increase the voltage you *decrease* the current (since the load is trying to draw a constant power). === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption > The most surprising thing I determined is that the 50G consumes > significantly more power than the 49G+. Not only does the 50G have > one more battery, but it also manages to draw more current, resulting > in an effective 40-50% greater use of power. I do not have any > explanation for the increase. Well, I have to wonder what at all is surprising about that. No offense, but a second year EE student would have known that in > advance. You increase the voltage , you increase the current. While it is not > a purely resistive load, to some degree it is. I completely understand that. I do have an EE degree. No need to explain Ohm's Law. :) Perhaps I was not clear, but what I do not have is an explanation for what changed from the 49G+ to the 50G that resulted in the higher power consumption. The only differences I know are the following: 1. Ability to be powered by USB. 2. Wires from the CPU to an extra connector for a rudimentary serial port. 3. An extra battery, and any changes in voltage regulation circuitry needed to handle this. The only one that sounds likely is that number 3 was poorly implemented. Given other examples of Kinpo engineering, this does not surprise me. But I have not compared the schematics of the 49G+ and the 50G, nor do I have them, nor have I opened both to compare their circuitry, so I cannot answer the question. > And if you jack the voltage 30%, even if the current was the same, guess > what happens to the power consumption. Yes, I know, and I already explained this in my post. > It would be much more meaningful to state your test conditions and get > 10 or 20 of use to try it. I did state my test conditions. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask and I will answer. I believe I gave enough information for anybody with the time and ambition to reproduce the tests. The only ones that were a bit questionable were the flash tests, because it doesn't take long to fill 128 KB of flash, and the numbers jump around a lot. > Also, it would be meaningful to see what happens as the batteries drain. I did not see any appreciable difference when experimenting with both fresh and partially-used batteries. I did not try any nearly-spent batteries, however. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: HP graphing calculator power consumption >No offense, but a second year EE student would have known that in advance. You increase the voltage , you increase the current. While it is not >a purely resistive load, to some degree it is. Hahahahahaa! The best joke ever! A.L. === Subject: Re: HP Communications for Macintosh? > > Do you know of any communication software for Macintosh OS X Tiger and > a USB connection? > > Yes! HPConnect athttp://hpconnect.sourceforge.net/ > > It's a great little program. > > -Jonathan It doesn't seem to work for we with the HP50g though. > Has anyone else had this problem? > Any work arrounds? Hey, I'm the author of HPConnect - I don't have an HP50, can you tell me what happens when you try to use it? === Subject: Re: HP Communications for Macintosh? Do you know of any communication software for Macintosh OS X Tiger and > a USB connection? > Yes! HPConnect athttp://hpconnect.sourceforge.net/ > It's a great little program. > -Jonathan > It doesn't seem to work for we with the HP50g though. > Has anyone else had this problem? > Any work arrounds? Hey, I'm the author of HPConnect - I don't have an HP50, can you tell me what > happens when you try to use it? it Finder, but haven't had time to mess with it. So when I saw this thread I thought I should give it a go. I dragged the .app into Applications, went straight to http://hpconnect.sourceforge.net/ (nice job on the interface, btw), followed the 8 part directions under Connecting to your HP, and I connected with no problems (USB). For testing I get a couple files; binary, then ascii mode. Here are my specs... HPConnect, version 0.9. [ Macbook Pro ] Mac OS X, version 10.4.10. [ Calculator (HP 50g) ] Version HP50-C Revision #2.09 Copyright HP 2006. ... Pal === Subject: Re: HP Communications for Macintosh? it Finder, but haven't had time to mess with it. So when I saw this > thread I thought I should give it a go. ... > Pal Pal, unloved child because, no kidding, it gets fewer than 50 downloads each downloads each month). I'm glad people find it useful. You might want to know that after seeing that people were still using it, I realized I had a slightly updated version laying on my hard disk, so I uploaded it to the website. === Subject: Re: HP Communications for Macintosh? > > Do you know of any communication software for Macintosh OS X Tiger and > a USB connection? > > Yes! HPConnect athttp://hpconnect.sourceforge.net/ > > It's a great little program. > > -Jonathan > > It doesn't seem to work for we with the HP50g though. > Has anyone else had this problem? > Any work arrounds? Hey, I'm the author of HPConnect - I don't have an HP50, can you tell me what > happens when you try to use it? sent you a window grab via pm. -- macaddicted fides quaerens intellectum === Subject: Re: Firmware Update 49G+ > I have one of these calculators, which has always been a bit dodgy for me. > In an attempt to alleviate some of the issues I updated the firmware to > HP49-B Revision #2.05-4. This version made quite a large improvement, > especially in battery life. Recently I purchased a 50G (I have a hard time resisting HP Calcs) and as > part of this decided to upgrade the ROM to the latest on the HP site. I > tried the connectivity kit (no joy) and using an SD card. The SD card > worked and now my 50G reports version HP50-C Revision #2.09 I also saw that this firmware should work on my 49G+, so I tried loading > it without any luck; I get an error partway through the update. Is there a > known problem with the newer firmware and the 49G+? Is maybe there a > different intermediate firmeware that I need to use before loading 2.09 or > whatever else is current to the 49G+?? > Firm ware ??? === Subject: Re: Where can i download the ROM 2.10-7 for HP 50g > Coincidentally, Mr. Parisse's ROM is backward compatible with > the original HP 49 calculator as well, and his website is now > the only means of keeping the HP-49's features up to date > with its 49G+ and 50G siblings. BP's ROM contains experimental beta features, on top of unreleased 2.10 (which isn't tested, and for which HP is not responsible) Debug4x can get you the official 2.09 for your old 49G. The ARM ROMs are made from Saturn ROMs with some instructions overlaid. -- My planet, right or wrong === Subject: HPConnect for Mac So, visiting the forum for the first time in about 18 months, I was prodded into uploading the newest version of the HPConnect program for Macintosh to the website, http://hpconnect.sourceforge.net. The changes are: * Fixed a graphical glitch with the document icons * Double clicking on a HPConnect data file will open HPConnect, connect to the calculator and transfer the file in binary mode. * HPConnect now remembers the Binary/Ascii mode setting and the Debug mode setting from one run to the next. * Sub-directories are now displayed in bold in the directory list. * Now correctly recognizes integer variables (they have a different object type from real numbers) * Now a Universal Binary. Feel free to send me mail with feedback or questions. === Subject: Re: HPConnect for Mac > So, visiting the forum for the first time in about 18 months, I was > prodded into uploading the newest version of the HPConnect program for You should stop by more often.. Especially if you're giving away free toys.. (software) > * Now a Universal Binary. Nice. (and the other features sound good too). > Feel free to send me mail with feedback or questions. and install a few hpcalc.org apps.. (Before I download... I wonder if you replaced the 49g+ icon with a 50g icon ;) (Mac users get really nice icons. ...only reason I bring it up). Pal === Subject: Re: HPConnect for Mac > (Before I download... I wonder if you replaced the 49g+ icon with a > 50g icon ;) (Mac users get really nice icons. ...only reason I bring it up). Pal Well, I'm sure you found out - the new icon is slightly different but it's still a 49G+; sorry. If someone wants to whip one up, I'd be happy to use it. Actually, if someone wants to send me a free HP50G, I'd be **happy** to whip up an icon based on it. :-D === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? [after remarks that calculators all began as RPN] > One could make an argument, that primitive machines have > primitve interfaces beacuse early (especially mechanical) technology > has always problems with implementing advanced features :-) Primitive is biased word. For step-by-step manual scratchpad use (the exact terminology used by Wickes in remarks about his original design), enter data, then operation is more natural. > I happen to be RPN fan big time. I almost always prefer to use HP over TI. Which you've concealed in past and present dialogs, though in past you've finally said that your attacks were motivated by desire to prod HP to improve vs. TI. > But even I hate RPN notation when it is used in programming. How > would you explain, that almost every modern programming language > is using algebraic notation for mathematical calculations ? There goes that hypnotic suggestion again, causing forgetting that algebraic formulas can be used freely, anywhere within programs; it's often just some lack of imagination or creativity that we don't see more examples (which could have been included in manuals, to give a little more inspiration to the overall power of multi-lingual internals). Algebraic notation alone does not encompass all procedural things, however, so there is always another procedural language for programming (does TI still use some kind of BASIC? Do you hate as much to see that used?) > Find me an engineer who can fly a man to the moon using slide rule these days :-) Give me a helical slide rule long enough (and large enough table on which to rest it), and I can calculate anything in the world [what Archimedes would have said, if he had a slide rule :] > I have a hard time when deciphering RPN code even written by myself > when it is more than couple of weeks old. Add a comment :) > [re inconsistent, unpredictable results in various algebraic calcs] > The algebraic notation is not ambigious when properly implemented. > It usually requires more keystrokes, parenthesis and forward thinking > by the user, but otherwise is straigthforward. What you have described, > is how difficult it is to implement properly such interface > on the primitive technology of the cheap calculator. No, it's how cutsie designers messed up simple, predictable, logical things, sometimes to save a keystroke (at the cost of subsequent confusion and errors). On the earliest TI calcs that I had, +,= would double a value; then along came Sharp, on which CLR,1 followed by repeated +,= will generate a Fibonacci sequence (this seems nowadays to be common in most four-bangers, including old brand name Casio, which originally had its own unique logic design). I wager that most people will be unable to predict what +,= or -,= will do (or new# + = etc.), after many different calculations, nor will they be able to figure out how to continue to get certain follow-up results on these cute Sharp logic designs. My first TI having a % key was the most sensible, on which 3+4% first showed .12 (which is 3*4%) and then if you press = that .12 finally gets added to 3, and if you repeat = then the same value gets added more times. Sharp and Casio, however, decided that 3+4% should deliver 3.12 immediately, without showing the intermediate .12 before adding; if you wanted to see that intermediate value, you should instead have typed 3*4%, and if now you want to see it added to the original base value, then you press + last (ahem, isn't that a throwback to postfix?), and then hardly anyone can guess what various keys might do next (particularly in regard to re-using a prior value, a/k/a constant) On some cutesier Casios, however, 30+40% produces answer 50 (why?), then if the very next keystroke is - it shows 20 (why?); I think they called this perfect percent, but to me it's perfect confusion for the same people who are likely to protest that RPN is hard to understand :) [e.g. what will 30-40% do?] On HP18C/19B/17B (in ALG mode), it's back to the good sense of that old TI, where 3+4% now becomes 3+.12 on the command line, at which point any idiot can fathom that pressing = will finish the job, the same way as did that sensible, old TI calculator, but now so much easier to see in a visible, algebraic command line. So if you have students pick various common simple algebraic calculators at random, out of a bag full of all different models, and give them some challenges like those above, let's see how well they can do, and how much confidence they can have in the results. Among all those algebraic calculator varieties, I would still pick HP's financial calculator implementations as the very best of them all, making it hard for anyone (outside of Homer Simpson) to mis-calculate anything. For scientific use, older other-brand AOS mix infix and postfix, while HP's algebraic formulas were always certainly evaluated as they should be, and HP's equation writer and textbook display are as good as can be. It's with the CAS that students can take issue, because it sometimes hears a different drummer, and won't march in the direction of the answer book, even if it should be obvious to a human how to proceed; an occasional bug seems also to have slipped by, but of course is invaluable to see whether the student is paying attention :) >> One of the great advantages of HP is that its interface >> allows much easier and deeper integration of software, >> where TI seems rather as a group of unrelated pieces of software >> that have hard time to talk to each other. > I still stand by this :-) Yes, you've just re-affirmed it in another post :) > I even tried to convince my daughter to use Linux. > She lived with Linux for a few weeks, then asked me to > take this crap out of her computer and install Windows. > In my experience this is a typical reaction > of the majority of casual computer users to Linux. Casual users -- says it all. If all they did was browse web sites, watch videos on-line, and chat, how could they tell the difference? Things are tending to converge into identical performance on differing platforms, and some day it won't be possible to tell, without close inspection, what engine is inside. Of course, one good Windows virus or adware infection could change one's opinion, as could battling the plagues that beset each new version; trying alternative browsers, media players, mail clients, etc. (even Notepad replacements) could open one's eyes a bit more, to the fact that others are often far better than MS at what it does itself, and you can often get most of that better stuff for free. But youth of course must have its fling, so pardon us, so pardon us, and don't in girlhood's happy Spring be hard on us, be hard on us. http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/mikado/webopera/mk108.html > People like my daughter are typical everyday consumers... > They are just consumers who prefer better product > and are willing to pay for it. Better is in the eye of the beholder, and experience changes one's vision; if you're too successful in your barbs, you might have to end up using what your daughter uses (and wears, and listens to, etc.), and have nothing that you'd want yourself :) If she would only be willing to pay more for a calculator, I'd bet that HP could oblige her by delivering one that she would prefer, but making things really well has always carried a cost that narrows the market, the finest goods always being produced (and bought) in lesser quantity than mass merchandise, generally by the more discerning consumer. -- How to move mountains (or build pyramids?) with simple wooden tools: http://www.theforgottentechnology.com/ If above not operational, try: http://web.archive.org/web/20070210005831/http://www.theforgottentechnology. com/ I found I could move this building by myself by using physics, no wheels or rollers. http://web.archive.org/web/20070210005721/www.theforgottentechnology.com/new page2 http://web.archive.org/web/20070117201732/theforgottentechnology.com/Barn.jp g -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? <46cacd3e$0$18803$4c368faf@roadrunner.com> But even I hate RPN notation when it is used in programming. How > would you explain, that almost every modern programming language > is using algebraic notation for mathematical calculations ? There goes that hypnotic suggestion again, causing forgetting > that algebraic formulas can be used freely, anywhere within programs; > it's often just some lack of imagination or creativity that we don't > see more examples (which could have been included in manuals, to give > a little more inspiration to the overall power of multi-lingual internals). I'm rather referring to manipulation on the stack. I tend to write my programs skipping local variables, but just manipulating the stack, since these are generally simple to write, efficient in size and fast. For short programs it is not that difficult. But trying to decipher a month later is a challenge RPN on stack manipulation is truly cryptic to read. > Algebraic notation alone does not encompass all procedural things, however, > so there is always another procedural language for programming > (does TI still use some kind of BASIC? Do you hate as much to see that used?) TI does uses BASIC. It is easy to write and read. For sure it is significantly easier to read than USER RPL. My biggest concern is that it is awfully slow. In fact there is no reason why it must be so slow on MC68000. TI did a very poor job writing this intepreter. > I have a hard time when deciphering RPN code even written by myself > when it is more than couple of weeks old. Add a comment :) The point is, that the more self describing language it is, the less comments are needed to deciher it and it is easier to debug or modify it later. > No, it's how cutsie designers messed up simple, > predictable, logical things, sometimes to save a keystroke > (at the cost of subsequent confusion and errors). > ... > ... What you described is some improvements to the algebra, that manufacturers selected to add. Interestingly I've never thought about precedence of %operator, since in math the % is not really an algebraic operator that is recognized world wide. You have a point, that with the addition of operators that are not strictly mathematical different calculators will produce different results depending on how the manufacturer interpreted precedence of this artificial operator. I was more thinking about example such as: 2+3*4= In this case it should always produce 14. On some older calculators that was not the case but I don't consider them neither algebraic nr RPN. Any modern algebraic calculator should intepret this statement correctly. > I even tried to convince my daughter to use Linux. > She lived with Linux for a few weeks, then asked me to > take this crap out of her computer and install Windows. > In my experience this is a typical reaction > of the majority of casual computer users to Linux. Casual users -- says it all. Casual generally outnumbers professional in every field. That is why casual user drives what is mass market and professional drives niche market. > If all they did was browse web sites, watch videos on-line, > and chat, how could they tell the difference? Difference is in being common with peers etc. If every one else is using for example MS Office why bother with being incompatible. Even messaging is an issue. Lots of young people use AOL messenger (or whatever it is called). They don't care that Linux has one that is able to communicate with AOL. The point is that it is different than the one their peers are using. In case of my daughter the last straw was actually that she needed to install something later that was not in the initial Linux package and she wanted to do it herself. You can do it without any help on Windows in 99% of cases using simple GUI installer. When you try to do it on Linux, you end up searching internet for help. The first thing you discover is, that the help provided is horrible. In many cases you have so called gurus and experts who can't lower themselves to the level of knowledge of the newbie and their answers are as helpfull as describing 8 years old tunneling effect using Schrodinger equation. But this is not the worst. The worst is that in order to install something in most cases you to discover that you have to download number of cryptic packages you very much. You have just lost another client. I can add from myself, that equally irritating is trying to make some hardware set up and work under Linux. Why is it that in order to set up WiFi or printer or change settings in most cases you have to memorize and execute cryptinc commands from console. I think this is the biggest problem associated with Linux crowd. They are very poor in uderstanding customer. Microsoft is light years ahead of Linux in uderstanding their average mass market customer. The problem with Linux is, that if you don't get that, you can only dream of beating Windows. > Of course, one good Windows virus or adware infection > could change one's opinion, I had Windows since 3.1 version and I'm still waiting for this virus that will infect my machine :-) > as could battling the plagues that beset each new version; > trying alternative browsers, media players, mail clients, etc. > (even Notepad replacements) could open one's eyes a bit more, > to the fact that others are often far better than MS at what it does itself, > and you can often get most of that better stuff for free. Sure, you can improve on some simple MS tools. These were not meant to be top of the line products. Try to improve on MS professional tools such as Visual Studio or Office. I don't think there is anything as good as those products today on the market. Linux GUI RAD is a joke. Open Office is a nice toy for simple tasks but falls well short when some more features such as programming are needed. I find people blindly bashing Microsoft because it is so popular but often it is them whe spread FUD not the M$ :-) === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? >> I even tried to convince my daughter to use Linux. >> She lived with Linux for a few weeks, then asked me to >> take this crap out of her computer and install Windows. >> In my experience this is a typical reaction >> of the majority of casual computer users to Linux. >> People like my daughter are typical everyday consumers... >> They are just consumers who prefer better product >> and are willing to pay for it. It's occurred to me to ask, why didn't you get for your daughter the reputedly easiest of all computers to use, namely Apple? Besides the cost, of course (although you get what you pay for?), I suppose there's always the possibility that she might have discovered what's the underlying OS in OS X, and demanded again that you 'take this crap out of her computer' :) An A-Z Index of the Apple OS X command line http://www.ss64.com/osx/ Existing operating systems, especially the ones provided by the reigning monopolist here, are deeply flawed [Bill Joy] The ideal project is one where people don't have meetings, they have lunch. The size of the team should be the size of the lunch table. [Bill Joy] But also: Mac OS X is a rock-solid system that's beautifully designed. I much prefer it to Linux [Bill Joy] (I guess Apple also got what it paid for :) -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > It's occurred to me to ask, why didn't you get for your daughter > the reputedly easiest of all computers to use, namely Apple? It is a combination of software and hardware availability that puts an Apple in disadvantage beside the price, but many young people especially in college are actually chosing Apple as a alternative to Windows. I would say, that Apple has more fighting chance to attract casual users than Linux does. As far as my daughter goes, it is probably the factor, that most of her peers are using Windows. > Mac OS X is a rock-solid system that's beautifully designed. > I much prefer it to Linux [Bill Joy] I agree :-) (I guess Apple also got what it paid for :) -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:22:21 -0500: > The TI doesn't need reordering. > Just press what you see and the right answer comes out. > As I said in another post, > the HP requires more intellectual investment than the TI > and so will never be as popular in the mass-market. This apparently demonstrates the hypnotic power of marketing, which makes people forget that every HP calculator in this series has ALWAYS HANDLED ALGEBRAIC FORMULAS IN ADDITION TO RPN But as soon as you *add* the ability to *also* use RPN, which can only add to its total power, and should not detract from its algebraic power, that extra capability somehow becomes a strike against it (I wonder whether adding the RPN program to a TI calculator similarly cripples it?) The greater differentiation between HP's CAS line of calculators and TI's product line, in regard solely to algebraic matters, is that HP's CAS doesn't match textbooks as well, and some things are just plain hard to accomplish on it, even though, as is inevitable between disparate internals, it betters TI's line at various other particular (and extra) things. So a student who packs one of each is probably the best equipped of all; maybe the two companies should split off and combine their calculator divisions and sell only combo packs -- or someone else develop one emulator with two faces -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:22:21 -0500: > -- or someone else develop one emulator with two faces How about two emulators on a PDA? http://www.mobilevoodoo.com/index.htm (maybe scroll down to see the ti) ...however, I haven't heard anything lately regarding development. I'm afraid Mr. Hildinger may have lost interest in Palm OS. === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > Now from the teacher > standpoint, why would you want to teach students a notation that is > different from the notation they have in their text book ? That's subjective. To me, RPN is like the way I learned math. You > right down the numbers, one over the other, and then you draw the > operator. > Teachers > have enough problems with teaching students to understand the material > that is in the standard algebraic notation. Making that even more > difficult and confusing students with RPN notation / logic would make > their job even more difficult. Those students should take up fine arts or something. HEY! My BA is in graphic design, and I'm currently working on my MA in theology. Not every liberal arts student is a math idiot. > I learned RPN in > 20 minutes. Two years before my dad retired, I gave him my HP32-C. He > learned RPN in 20 minutes and exlaimed that he couldn't believe he > fumbled with algebraic for 11 years! We both saved more than 20 minutes in keystrokes....LOL. Scott Chapin -- macaddicted fides quaerens intellectum === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? theology. Not every liberal arts student is a math idiot. > LOL....that was not the way I meant it. I'm a business major, so it's an art at some schools and a science at others. The point was that you don't have to be a mathematician in order to pick up on RPN quickly. If you have the ability to handle the math that these calculators handle, you can certainly ingest RPN. Scott Chapin === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > HEY! My BA is in graphic design, and I'm currently working on my MA in > theology. Not every liberal arts student is a math idiot. LOL....that was not the way I meant it. I'm a business major, so it's an art > at some schools and a science at others. The point was that you don't have > to be a mathematician in order to pick up on RPN quickly. If you have the > ability to handle the math that these calculators handle, you can certainly > ingest RPN. Scott Chapin To be completely honest I made it to diff equations before I figured out that a career in science wasn't for me. They say the third times the charm, but it ain't good if it takes all of that in a core math course. ;-) -- macaddicted fides quaerens intellectum === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? > HEY! My BA is in graphic design, and I'm currently working on my MA in >> theology. Not every liberal arts student is a math idiot. >> LOL....that was not the way I meant it. I'm a business major, so it's an >> art >> at some schools and a science at others. The point was that you don't >> have >> to be a mathematician in order to pick up on RPN quickly. If you have the >> ability to handle the math that these calculators handle, you can >> certainly >> ingest RPN. >> Scott Chapin To be completely honest I made it to diff equations before I figured out > that a career in science wasn't for me. They say the third times the > charm, but it ain't good if it takes all of that in a core math course. > ;-) -- I guess I think that RPN is easier than the math, even in core courses. If you can do a crossword puzzle, you can rationalize RPN in 20 minutes. Scott Chapin === Subject: Re: Why do so many people love Teas Instruments? >How often does one have to enter expressions found in a textbook? Almost all >engineering problems consist of being given a bunch of inputs and desired >outputs and then, maniuplating a handful of equations, coming up with >solutions in the form of new equations that exists only on workpad (ok, and >many in the solution manual :-) ). TI market are not engineers. TI marked are high shool students. A.L. === Subject: Re: Calculator defined you might want to wait for my new hplua release before hacking it! i've rehosted the whole show so that lua runs as a calculator with a graphical front end. this is necessary to turn lua into a virtual calculator and have graphics together with the requisite symbology such as greek letters, and internationlisation in general. what i'd like to be able to do now is call saturn builtins :-) === Subject: What is: GCD Heu Depth 0h? When I entered *Sigma*(x=1,100,(-1)^x * x) there was sign that showed up in my hp 50g's upper left hand corner that said: GCD Heu Depth 0h try-5, z=4 Then after a few seconds...this appeared : GCD Heu Success The answer that it gave was: 201/4 - 1/4 which is wrong. The answer should be 50. Does anyone know how to solve these kind of problems and why my calculator didn't give the correct answer and why it showed the === Subject: Re: What is: GCD Heu Depth 0h? Hp 50g User ha scritto: > When I entered *Sigma*(x=1,100,(-1)^x * x) there was sign that showed > up in my hp 50g's upper left hand corner that said: GCD Heu Depth 0h > try-5, z=4 Then after a few seconds...this appeared : > GCD Heu Success The answer that it gave was: 201/4 - 1/4 which is wrong. The answer > should be 50. Does anyone know how to solve these kind of problems and why my > calculator didn't give the correct answer and why it showed the Hi Hp 50g User. I tried you example on my emulator in RPN mode; using the Equation Writer I input the summation, then pressing [EVAL] whit the expression on the stack brings up 50 as a result and no message is displayed.... By the way, I think that GCD Heu stands for Greatest Common Divisor Heuristic, where heuristic can either be any algorithm that gives up finding the optimal solution for an improvement in run time or it can be a function that estimates the cost of the cheapest path from one node to another (for this quoting, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic_(computer_science) ) Ah, I almost forgot: the emulator prompted for Switching to Complex Mode, so it may be wise to set flag -103 before you try your example... Hope this helps. Giancarlo === Subject: Re: What is: GCD Heu Depth 0h? Hp 50g User >When I entered *Sigma*(x=1,100,(-1)^x * x) there was sign that showed >up in my hp 50g's upper left hand corner that said: GCD Heu Depth 0h >try-5, z=4 Then after a few seconds...this appeared : >GCD Heu Success The answer that it gave was: 201/4 - 1/4 which is wrong. The answer >should be 50. 201/4 - 1/4 = 50 :) Calculator is in the exact mode. Change it to approximate mode [RSHIFT]+[ENTER]. Does anyone know how to solve these kind of problems and why my >calculator didn't give the correct answer and why it showed the Press [MODE] [F3] and unchek Verbose. === Subject: Re: RPN Calculator in Excel or Java? On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:05:43 +0200, tomcee My particular interest has been picqued by writing code for the HP35s >> and wanting to be able to see the data memory as the algorithm was >> executing. The easiest route to accomplish this might be to use the source code of an existing emulator that does NOT emulate the original calculator on the CPU level but one that knows about something like register contents at runtime. Adding the code to let such an emulator update an extra window with all the register contents should be feasible - if you are fluent in the language and GUI framework used in the chosen emulator. === Subject: HP 33s Is it possible to store simple notes and equations in the calculator to reference during tests and quizzes? For example, say I want to type in a sample problem and step by step solutions. Is this possible? I don't want to open the calculator if it isn't. I had studied the HP48 emulator source code (v1.42) in an attempt to do just this. I was hoping to interface the code to Excel or some other type of generic display or front end. I (believe I) am reasonably good C++ programmer, but was not able to find where the appropriate 'hooks' are in the emulator source code. I do hope to continue this study at a later date. If anyone out there has any hints or has insights into the emulator source code, I would like to hear about it. In the meantime, I am still pursuing a limited HP35s emulator in Excel97(VBA). This in itself is a great learning experience. I've got a basic front working, and am working on rudimentary program interpretation now. I can check if a progam (listed in a column in Excel) is a valid program. The next step will be to link the program steps to the front end calculator. It will only work with real numbrers for now, but my target is to at least work with complex numbers.