1770 === Subject: Re: Relationship between HP 50g and Metakernel As far as I can remember the Metakernel was privately sold by Jean-Yves > Avenard in the HP 48 times. Then HP hired him and he joined ACO. Did they buy the Metakernal source as well? The ACO team (including JYA, Cyrille and other HP-48 developers) based the OS and CAS of the HP49G on MetaKernel, ALG48 and Erable. The version of MetaKernel used was the never-released MK 3.0 that JYA originally planned for the 48GX. Afterwards JYA made the earlier MK 2.30 (the last one sold for the 48GX) available for free download. HP later adapted the 49G OS and CAS for the 49g+ and then the 50g. They apparently control the rights to the code from the 49G onward, but not the earlier versions of that code for the 48GX, because those earlier versions remain freely available for download from hpcalc.org. -- Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) [CapitalThorn].bes ofereode, [CapitalYAcute]isses swa m.beg. (That passed away, this also can.) from Deor, in the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v) === Subject: Store a number into memory How do I store a single number into a memory location so that it can be easily retrieved for different calculations? === Subject: Re: Store a number into memory > How do I store a single number into a memory location so that it can > be easily retrieved for different calculations? Ask the person who turned the calculator on for you. Bill === Subject: Re: Store a number into memory > How do I store a single number into a memory location so that it can > be easily retrieved for different calculations? Ask the person who turned the calculator on for you. Bill === Subject: Re: Store a number into memory > How do I store a single number into a memory location so that it can > be easily retrieved for different calculations? On what calculator? On a 50g in RPN mode (also soft menus, flag -117 checked), have the number to be stored in stack level 1, type in the variable name (in single quotes if it already is storing a value), and hit the STO key. Both the number and the variable name will disappear from the stack. You can then find the variable by hitting the VAR key, bringing up the stored variables in the softkeys (or by retyping the name). Hitting the corresponding softkey will recall the contents of that variable to the stack. You can also view the contents of the six variables of the soft keys (without putting them on the stack) by pressing [RS] [down arrow]. S.C. === On 2007-09-28 21:38:22 -0700, Savage said: I wish I could be there -- have fun guys. While looking over the schedule, > it was noticed: Cyrille Marie Henry Herv.8e de Br.8ebisson Is that for real? > Did he approve? That is Cyrille full name. In France, it is not uncommon to be named after your parents, grand parents or uncles. So you end up with several first names on your passport. Being the 4th child, there were no names left for me , so I'm just Jean-Yves .. Jean-Yves -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Don't tell me his dad's name was Marie. ;-) What about customs in France when one is confirmed or is married, and what about hyphenated names (fist and last)? - Greg PS: Looking forward to seeing news from the conference... > On 2007-09-28 21:38:22 -0700, Savage said: > In France, it is not uncommon to be named after your parents, grand > parents or uncles. > So you end up with several first names on your passport. > Being the 4th child, there were no names left for me , so I'm just Jean-Yves .. > Jean-Yves === JYA a .8ecrit : > On 2007-09-28 21:38:22 -0700, Savage said: >> I wish I could be there -- have fun guys. While looking over the >> schedule, >> it was noticed: Cyrille Marie Henry Herv.8e de Br.8ebisson Is that for >> real? >> Did he approve? > That is Cyrille full name. > In France, it is not uncommon to be named after your parents, grand > parents or uncles. > So you end up with several first names on your passport. > Being the 4th child, there were no names left for me , so I'm just > Jean-Yves .. > Jean-Yves > Even in France, Cyrille Marie Henry Herv.8e de Br.8ebisson is not a common full name, even Jean-Yves is not so common, actually you are the only Jean-Yves I know. I guess it sounds very sexy when a woman tells your name where you live, isn't it ?! Julien MEYER JADEWARE -- Game Programming Docs, Code snippets and more : http://jadeware.net/dev.html === Subject: OT: Common and uncommon names > even Jean-Yves is not so common How about Jacques-Yves, then? http://www.cousteau.org/ http://www.incwell.com/Biographies/Cousteau.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques-Yves_Cousteau -=-=-=- === Subject: hpgcc and newlib Hi Has anyone ported newlib for the HP49/50 and hpgcc? I saw some messages from Ingo Blank about compiling some stuff using newlib but nothing on how to actually get it or compile it for the HP50. All I need from it is libm (and IEEE math routines such as sin, tan, cos and sqrt) Jean-Yves -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Question about hpgcc (was Re: hpgcc and newlib) Hi Any reasons why all objects are compiled with -msoft-float? As this is the default for gcc when compiling arm-elf target. There's a bug in ld however, is it's not able to link a .o compiled with -msoft-float with one compile without, even though both are using software floating point emulation... Jean-Yves -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: When comand > Hi! > I recently used a TI-89 Titanium (I'm, sorry, but I had to...) instead > of my 50g and I noticed the presence of a comand named when. This > comand allows the user to plot a system of equation. For example, if > one condition is x>0, then you can tell the calculator to plot > cos(abs(x)) if the first condition is true; you can then tell the > calculator to plot cos(x) if x<0. > My question is: is there something similar for the 50g, too? I tried > to write WHEN in the eqw, when I have to insert the function to > plot, and such a comand seems to exist because, if you digit WHEN, > you can use brackets after this comand (for example, you're prevented > from to doing so if you digit some other letters, for instance > asddfgggf); thus, the calculator must understand the expression > When as a command; however, this is neither present in the catalog > menu nor in the User's Guide, so I don't know the syntax (which is > certainly different from the one used by TI-89 Titanium). > Any advice is welcomed! I seem to remember JYA calling the vertical line the when command. This was some time ago; I can't remember what it was relating to. I doubt that searching for when would yield any useful results. I can't seem to get it to handle inequalities though, so I'm not sure if this is helpful. === Subject: Re: When comand > I seem to remember JYA calling the vertical line the when command. it's not when but where (quite a different w-question ;-) The AUR tells me that it substitutes values for names in an expression... > This was some time ago; I can't remember what it was relating to. I > doubt that searching for when would yield any useful results. I can't seem to get it to handle inequalities though, so I'm not sure > if this is helpful. > === Subject: Looking for old hp48 software: pldl100 library Hi Does anyone have this library? It's used to control the Portable Lab Data Logger 100 from Firmware Systems. I searced the net for it, but found only the hp38 version. I need the hp48gx version Christian Meland (modify mailaddress if you reply via mail) === Subject: Re: Looking for old hp48 software: pldl100 library Christian Meland ... Welcome back! #100019h LIBEVAL SCROLL (which of the two are you? :) -=-=-=- === Subject: Re: Looking for old hp48 software: pldl100 library -and the question you raise: I don't have my hp49 with me (my 10-year old daughter use it with a program I've made, to practice multiplication :-), but I guess you are referrering to the two Christian's in the BetaTesting list....I've never managed to figure out which one's me :-) Should I rememver you? No name in the mailadress.... C Saturn rising skrev i melding > Christian Meland ... Welcome back! > #100019h LIBEVAL SCROLL (which of the two are you? :) -=-=-=- === Subject: Re: Looking for old hp48 software: pldl100 library Hi Christian, AFAIK it's available from the Firmware Systems archive page. If not, drop me a note, maybe I can find it in my archive... HTH Raymond Christian Meland schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Hi Does anyone have this library? It's used to control the Portable Lab Data > Logger 100 from Firmware Systems. I searced the net for it, but found only > the hp38 version. I need the hp48gx version > Christian Meland (modify mailaddress if you reply via mail) > === Subject: Re: Looking for old hp48 software: pldl100 library Th site www.firmwaresystems.com is taken by someone else, and I can not find any site belonging to the company anymore. Could you please have a look, any material would be interesting, but esp. the library Christian M Raymond Del Tondo skrev i melding > Hi Christian, AFAIK it's available from the Firmware Systems archive page. > If not, drop me a note, maybe I can find it in my archive... HTH Raymond Christian Meland schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> Hi >> Does anyone have this library? It's used to control the Portable Lab Data >> Logger 100 from Firmware Systems. I searced the net for it, but found >> only the hp38 version. I need the hp48gx version >> Christian Meland >> (modify mailaddress if you reply via mail) === Subject: Re: Looking for old hp48 software: pldl100 library so far I only found my DataLab Companion CD v1.07 , which contains the Webster files for the HP-48 and ..49g (shudder), in particular WBLIB48 and MELIB48 , for my Portable DataLab from 1999. No PDL100 library up to now, but I'll check my archive... Raymond Christian Meland schrieb im Newsbeitrag Th site www.firmwaresystems.com is taken by someone else, and I can not > find any site belonging to the company anymore. Could you please have a > look, any material would be interesting, but esp. the library Christian M Raymond Del Tondo skrev i melding >> Hi Christian, >> AFAIK it's available from the Firmware Systems archive page. >> If not, drop me a note, maybe I can find it in my archive... >> HTH >> Raymond >> Christian Meland schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Hi >> Does anyone have this library? It's used to control the Portable Lab > Data Logger 100 from Firmware Systems. I searced the net for it, but > found only the hp38 version. I need the hp48gx version >>> Christian Meland >> (modify mailaddress if you reply via mail) > === Subject: Re: Looking for old hp48 software: pldl100 library C Raymond Del Tondo skrev i melding so far I only found my DataLab Companion CD v1.07 , > which contains the Webster files for the HP-48 and ..49g (shudder), > in particular WBLIB48 and MELIB48 , for my Portable DataLab from 1999. No PDL100 library up to now, but I'll check my archive... Raymond Christian Meland schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> Th site www.firmwaresystems.com is taken by someone else, and I can not >> find any site belonging to the company anymore. Could you please have a >> look, any material would be interesting, but esp. the library >> Christian M >> Raymond Del Tondo skrev i melding > Hi Christian, >> AFAIK it's available from the Firmware Systems archive page. > If not, drop me a note, maybe I can find it in my archive... >> HTH >> Raymond >> Christian Meland schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> Hi >> Does anyone have this library? It's used to control the Portable Lab >> Data Logger 100 from Firmware Systems. I searced the net for it, but >> found only the hp38 version. I need the hp48gx version >>>> Christian Meland >> (modify mailaddress if you reply via mail) >> === Subject: Re: Stuck LCD annunciators on 48G Hello Dave; I while ago, I had the same problem with a HP49G and after much thinking I decided to swap the display with a cheap 39G.... I am not going to say that the swap was easy because it is very easy to break the display or end up with non working lines due to misalignment. Fortunately for me, I was able to transfer the problem to the inexpensive 39G (which I later gave away) and the 49G is still working perfectly ........ Note: I know that the 48 series is a lot harder to open than the 49G. Best wishes..... Roberto Flores >I picked up a 48G a while back (at a flea market, of all places), and > it works great, except that the rightmost four annunciators - alpha, > alert, busy, and transmit - stay on all the time while the unit is > powered on. The LS and RS annunciators seem to be working fine, though > in the past they've both come on when either shift key is activated. I'm assuming there's some sort of ribbon cable that's loose/corroded/ > breaking (hopefully not option 3). Is this something that would be an > easy fix, or would I be likely to cause more problems than I'd solve? > Like I said, it's perfectly fine as far as I can tell, from a > functional standpoint. -Dave Britten > === Subject: Re: Stuck LCD annunciators on 48G decided to swap the display with a cheap 39G.... > I am not going to say that the swap was easy because it is very easy to > break the display or end up with non working lines due to misalignment. > Fortunately for me, I was able to transfer the problem to the inexpensive > 39G (which I later gave away) and the 49G is still working perfectly > ........ Note: I know that the 48 series is a lot harder to open than the > 49G. Best wishes..... Roberto Flores >I picked up a 48G a while back (at a flea market, of all places), and > it works great, except that the rightmost four annunciators - alpha, > alert, busy, and transmit - stay on all the time while the unit is > powered on. The LS and RS annunciators seem to be working fine, though > in the past they've both come on when either shift key is activated. > I'm assuming there's some sort of ribbon cable that's loose/corroded/ > breaking (hopefully not option 3). Is this something that would be an > easy fix, or would I be likely to cause more problems than I'd solve? > Like I said, it's perfectly fine as far as I can tell, from a > functional standpoint. > -Dave Britten- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Depending on whether or not you want to spend somee money on it here is a source who does repairs on most HP calculator series including the HP 48's. http://www.fixthatcalc.com/ Rich Wood === Subject: How to define a vector-valued function? I'm wondering if there is a way to define a function that returns multiple values without resorting to writing a UserRPL program. What I would like to do is something like: 'F(x)=[ ]' DEF Where and are expressions evaluating to scalars. This, however, does not seem to be legal. Is there any simple syntax that === Subject: Re: How to define a vector-valued function? ssils...@digipen.edu ha scritto: > I'm wondering if there is a way to define a function that returns > multiple values without resorting to writing a UserRPL program. What I > would like to do is something like: 'F(x)=[ ]' > DEF Where and are expressions evaluating to scalars. This, > however, does not seem to be legal. Is there any simple syntax that Hi. Just after reading your post, I stumbled into page 3-36 of the 50G User's Guide, where a paragraph entitled Functions defined by more than one expression is showed. They use the IFTE function to define a function like: f(x)=2X-1, x<0 f(x)=X^2-1, x>0 and state that: [...] The IFTE function is written as IFTE(condition, operation_if_true, operation_if_false) If condition is true then operation_if_true is performed, else operation_if_false is performed. For example, we can write 'f(x) = IFTE(x>0, x^2-1, 2*x-1)', to describe the function listed above. [...] Hope this helps. Giancarlo === Subject: Re: How to define a vector-valued function? dave: there's no simple syntax for a general n-dimensional function? That's a little surprising (it seems as if defining vector functions would be a pretty commonly used feature). Giancarlo: That's not exactly what I'm looking for - I want to define a function that returns multiple outputs simultaneously (as a list or vector), rather than a piecewise function, although that will be useful to know in the future. === Subject: Re: How to define a vector-valued function? > dave: > there's no simple syntax for a general n-dimensional function? That's > a little surprising (it seems as if defining vector functions would be > a pretty commonly used feature). I have been trying ways of defining quaternion math operations. Addition, subtraction and dot product of 4-tuples all work, but quaternion multiplication does not. The simplest way to define quaternions is as an object consisting of an integer and a vector. Then vector dot and cross products can be used in the computation of the quaternion product. === Subject: Re: How to define a vector-valued function? > dave: > there's no simple syntax for a general n-dimensional function? That's > a little surprising (it seems as if defining vector functions would be > a pretty commonly used feature). I have been trying ways of defining quaternion math operations. Addition, > subtraction and dot product of 4-tuples all work, but quaternion > multiplication > does not. The simplest way to define quaternions is as an object consisting > of > an integer and a vector. There are lots of quaternions not of that form, e.g, 1/2 + i + j + k. Do you mean a real and a vector? === Subject: Re: How to define a vector-valued function? > dave: >> there's no simple syntax for a general n-dimensional function? That's >> a little surprising (it seems as if defining vector functions would be >> a pretty commonly used feature). >> I have been trying ways of defining quaternion math operations. Addition, >> subtraction and dot product of 4-tuples all work, but quaternion >> multiplication >> does not. The simplest way to define quaternions is as an object consisting >> of >> an integer and a vector. There are lots of quaternions not of that form, e.g, > 1/2 + i + j + k. Do you mean a real and a vector? -- === Subject: Re: How to define a vector-valued function? Virgil and hgabert suggested. === Subject: Re: How to define a vector-valued function? dave: > there's no simple syntax for a general n-dimensional function? That's > a little surprising (it seems as if defining vector functions would be > a pretty commonly used feature). Giancarlo: > That's not exactly what I'm looking for - I want to define a function > that returns multiple outputs simultaneously (as a list or vector), > rather than a piecewise function, although that will be useful to know > in the future. You can make simple programs that act like vector valued functions: << -> X << X X 1 + X 2 + 3 ->ARRY >> 'F' STO then 'F(5)' EVAL will return [5 6 7], and F(X) in an algebraic behaves like a function. === Subject: Re: How to define a vector-valued function? Or, do this: << ->x << 'x' EVAL 'x+1' EVAL 'x+2' EVAL >> 'G' STO. And then, try 5 G, or try 'G(5)' EVAL. Lots of different ways to skin a calc. > dave: > there's no simple syntax for a general n-dimensional function? That's > a little surprising (it seems as if defining vector functions would be > a pretty commonly used feature). > Giancarlo: > That's not exactly what I'm looking for - I want to define a function > that returns multiple outputs simultaneously (as a list or vector), > rather than a piecewise function, although that will be useful to know > in the future. You can make simple programs that act like vector valued functions: << -> X > << X X 1 + X 2 + 3 ->ARRY > > 'F' STO then 'F(5)' EVAL will return [5 6 7], and F(X) in an algebraic behaves > like a function. === Subject: Re: How to define a vector-valued function? > I'm wondering if there is a way to define a function that returns > multiple values without resorting to writing a UserRPL program. What I > would like to do is something like: 'F(x)=[ ]' > DEF Where and are expressions evaluating to scalars. This, > however, does not seem to be legal. Is there any simple syntax that > Try 'f(x)=(2*x,3*x)'. The function returns the two values as a complex number. -- === Subject: Re: Openfire problems on a 50G > Unfortunately, none of this worked. I'm a bit bummed. I can't see > Laetitia... I cought some time to investigate but i havent found anything tat might cause troubles for you. it's very strange almost as if your device has different LCD module :-) try to clear all memory -remove all libraries -reset all flags -clear all ports then install openfire and some sample ! (other than that i realy have no clue) if your device is 50G, with ROM2.09, it simply must work... (or maybe it has strange issues :-) -- manjo http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire | 49G+ | ROM 2.09 | hw serial:CN40213309 | sw serial:CN40701165 | === Subject: Re: HPs mis-calculate fractional exponents? > I noticed an issue when I tried to graph y = x^(4/5) on my 50G. > it only showed points [for positive X] A challenge for explainers: Consider 'XROOT(5.,X^4.)' Explain why this plots a complete graph on the HP48 but only for positive X on the HP49/50 (VER 4.20060919) While '(X^4.)^(1/5.)' plots a complete graph on all calculators. How can this not be a bug in XROOT? (as to flag settings, do CASCFG before plotting) -=-=-=- === Subject: Re: HPs mis-calculate fractional exponents? On 2007-09-29 03:30:34 -0700, Nick said: > Oh, and in case it's helpful, both my 48gx and 50g give me about > -1.409 + 1.023i as the result of -2^.8, though I'm not sure why. > Apparently it's evaluating the 5th root of -2 as (5th root of 2) > (e^(i*pi/5)). This is a FAQ .... > -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: need suggestions.... Hi guys, I'm now using my trusty hp 48 gx for simple calculations, and I wante to change it for something smaller. I was wondering if I should get the new hp 35s or the 33s. === Subject: Re: need suggestions.... > Hi guys, > I'm now using my trusty hp 48 gx for simple calculations, and I wante > to change it for something smaller. I was wondering if I should get > the new hp 35s or the 33s. Depends what you want to do. So, what do you want to do? === Subject: Re: need suggestions.... > Hi guys, > I'm now using my trusty hp 48 gx for simple calculations, and I wante > to change it for something smaller. I was wondering if I should get > the new hp 35s or the 33s. Hi. If you're not tight on budget, I'd try to get a 42S on the auction site ;-) I got mine some time ago, and I was really impressed by two factors, above all: 1. the understatement that machine gives - so small and seemingly innocuous but soooo terribly powerful ;-) 2. the friendliness of the human-machine interface: not being a programming geek at all, I was able to key in, store, modify and use some tiny programs really in the space of some *seconds* - literally! Giancarlo === Subject: Re: need suggestions.... On Oct 2, 12:10 am, Giancarlo Hi guys, > I'm now using my trusty hp 48 gx for simple calculations, and I wante > to change it for something smaller. I was wondering if I should get > the new hp 35s or the 33s. Hi. > If you're not tight on budget, I'd try to get a 42S on the auction > site ;-) > I got mine some time ago, and I was really impressed by two factors, > above all: > 1. the understatement that machine gives - so small and seemingly > innocuous but soooo terribly powerful ;-) > 2. the friendliness of the human-machine interface: not being a > programming geek at all, I was able to key in, store, modify and use > some tiny programs really in the space of some *seconds* - literally! Giancarlo I agree that the 42s is excellent and have three of them. Only one set of documentation though. Among current production units the 35s is IMO much better than the 33s from an ergonomic standpoint if nothing else. Much closer to the classic HP layout I love. Rich Wood === Subject: Re: need suggestions.... J.Chen schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Hi guys, > I'm now using my trusty hp 48 gx for simple calculations, and I wante > to change it for something smaller. I was wondering if I should get > the new hp 35s or the 33s. > If these are the options, then simplsy forget the 33s, and buy a 35s! Not perfect, but the first 'HP-like' calc since the HP-48GX. (Ok, the 12c 25th Anniversary Edition is nice, too;-) HTH Raymond === Subject: HP font needed calculator and emulator. Using the Adobe reader, I received a warning message that it was looking fora HP48GOS1 font. A search on Google found several refernces but no source for the font. Can anyone help me? Jim === Subject: Re: HP font needed James Mayhew ha scritto: > calculator and emulator. Using the Adobe reader, I received a warning > message that it was looking fora HP48GOS1 font. A search on Google found > several refernces but no source for the font. Can anyone help me? Jim Hi Jim. The font you're looking for is part of the following package: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/misc/hp48font.zip namely: A collection of TrueType fonts for HP48 Developers. Most fonts in this package were created using Fontographer by Altsys. By Ted J. Kerber. Hope this helps. Giancarlo === Subject: Re: Picture of the new HP17BII+ : Public_Email@No_Public_Email.254 says... : -snip- : > With the Menuing and keys, I'm reminded of the 27s or the 42s. : > : One can only hope: HP42SII next... :-) I sure hope so. -- ------------------- Keep working millions on welfare depend on you === Subject: Re: Openfire problems on a 50G > I am unable to get anything openfire related to work on the 50G (ROM > 2.09). I installed the library, but every time I tried to use OFVIEW > or the animate features (even the sand demo). my screen went nuts. > The only thing I could do was turn the calc off. Is OF 50G compatible? Yes, OF is 50G compatible and it works well on ROM 2.09 (infact it works on 1.24 and later roms) most likely you have some kind of library confilct frome time to time users report problems like yours i always recommend to remove and reinstall OF library if that doesn't help you can try to remove all libraries, put the openfire first test if it works and then install the rest. i hope you can resolve this to enjoy the grayscales for 49G+/50G by Lilian Pigallio === Subject: Re: Openfire problems on a 50G important : when you stored (installed) the library restart your calc ON-C -- manjo http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire | 49G+ | ROM 2.09 | hw serial:CN40213309 | sw serial:CN40701165 | === Subject: Re: Openfire problems on a 50G >important : >when you stored (installed) the library restart your calc ON-C Unfortunately, this did not solve the problem. Do you have any idea what may cause conflicts? And what start up/initialization should I use? As I understand the documentation, once the library is installed, I should be able to view images using OFVIEW, correct? This still causes a nutty screen, as does INITGS (DONEGS also messes up the screen too). Mark Wilson Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ === Subject: Re: Openfire problems on a 50G >important : >when you stored (installed) the library restart your calc ON-C Unfortunately, this did not solve the problem. Do you have any idea > what may cause conflicts? And what start up/initialization should I > use? As I understand the documentation, once the library is installed, I > should be able to view images using OFVIEW, correct? This still > causes a nutty screen, as does INITGS (DONEGS also messes up the > screen too). first NO second YES :-) I have no idea what could be the cause for this. People who reported such conflicts didn't do much (mostly removed openfire ON-C, installed again, ON-C, that's about it) they didn't investigate further or were not able to relate this to other content, my guess is that due to adding/removing libraries and garbage collect library got installed when library subsystem was in a strange (not necesarily faulty) state when you installed OF also interesting is that users reported such problems on the first try. so when you fix the issue it will most probably run without problems, another interesting thing is that i NEVER experienced such problems myself (maybe due to the fact that i have only a couple libraries which i realy use frequently) maybe it would be best if you tried the whole procedure again : -delete the library from the calculator, ON-C -download fresh copy from my site -install and ON-C -- manjo http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire | 49G+ | ROM 2.09 | hw serial:CN40213309 | sw serial:CN40701165 | === Great, thank you! > The initial speaker schedule has been posted for the HHC2007 HP > Conference at Hewlett-Packard's facility in San Diego this weekend. It === Great, thank you! > The initial speaker schedule has been posted for the HHC2007 HP > Conference at Hewlett-Packard's facility in San Diego this weekend. It === Subject: debugging sysrpl on the 50g Hi to all! Please forgive a poor lamers question, but is there any way to sst through sysrpl on the 50g, like with Jazz on the 48? The built-in sst doesn't seem to work too well for sysrpl, which I find surprising. === Subject: Re: debugging sysrpl on the 50g > is there any way to SST through sysrpl on the 50g, > like with Jazz on the 48? Jazz on the 49/50? (may be in alpha or beta state) http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4700 Or Debug4x (emulated 50G on PC) http://www.debug4x.com/ [currently buggy itself - web site error] -=-=-=- === Subject: Re: debugging sysrpl on the 50g > Or Debug4x (emulated 50G on PC) > http://www.debug4x.com/ [currently buggy itself - web site error] -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Graves RKBA! bgraves@ix.netcom.com === Subject: Stuck LCD annunciators on 48G I picked up a 48G a while back (at a flea market, of all places), and it works great, except that the rightmost four annunciators - alpha, alert, busy, and transmit - stay on all the time while the unit is powered on. The LS and RS annunciators seem to be working fine, though in the past they've both come on when either shift key is activated. I'm assuming there's some sort of ribbon cable that's loose/corroded/ breaking (hopefully not option 3). Is this something that would be an easy fix, or would I be likely to cause more problems than I'd solve? Like I said, it's perfectly fine as far as I can tell, from a functional standpoint. -Dave Britten === Subject: Re: Stuck LCD annunciators on 48G > I picked up a 48G a while back (at a flea market, of all places), and > it works great, except that the rightmost four annunciators - alpha, > alert, busy, and transmit - stay on all the time while the unit is > powered on. The LS and RS annunciators seem to be working fine, though > in the past they've both come on when either shift key is activated. I'm assuming there's some sort of ribbon cable that's loose/corroded/ > breaking (hopefully not option 3). Is this something that would be an > easy fix, or would I be likely to cause more problems than I'd solve? > Like I said, it's perfectly fine as far as I can tell, from a > functional standpoint. Most probably it's a display problem (seams like misalignment issue of some sort) either it was droped (extremly hard) or maybe it got wet at some point (from condensation or beer :-) or the LCD simply died (of age, chemistry or misuse) there is not much you can do, but here's what you can try : -open it and separate LCD, clean the ribbon and PCB and reassemble NOTE: People who disasembled the LCD part reported that you may experience the opposite effect: unreliable lines or rows -if you're not comfortable around screwdrivers, knives, broken plastic, finger cuts... you better not try it :-) FINALLY: -although i sugested you could do it it's your own decision to actualy do it, so don't blame me if you mess something up. I guess it depends on the price you got it for, allow me to break it down for you : -if it was cheap it's not a great loss if you fail, but also not worth much <- look at it as an opportunity to learn something -if it was more expensive, you should be more careful and your gain could be higher <- learning thing still present :-) -- manjo http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire | 49G+ | ROM 2.09 | hw serial:CN40213309 | sw serial:CN40701165 | === Subject: Re: Stuck LCD annunciators on 48G -open it and separate LCD, clean the ribbon and PCB and reassemble NOTE: > People who disasembled the LCD part reported that you may experience the > opposite effect: unreliable lines or rows > -if you're not comfortable around screwdrivers, knives, broken plastic, > finger cuts... you better not try it :-) Yeah, I briefly investigated getting into the guts of the thing to fiddle with the display, but the difficulty of getting the tin keyboard plate off without mangling it seemed remarkably high. I gave up on that approach pretty quickly. Shame they didn't make the thing a bit easier to get into. > FINALLY: > -although i sugested you could do it it's your own decision to actualy do > it, > so don't blame me if you mess something up. I guess it depends on the price you got it for, allow me to break it down > for you : > -if it was cheap it's not a great loss if you fail, but also not worth much > <- look at it as an opportunity to learn something > -if it was more expensive, you should be more careful and your gain could be > higher <- learning thing still present :-) It was $5 US, in the box, with the soft case, manual, quick start guide, and even plastic packaging inserts - deal of the century, basically. I think it would have only been topped by a 41 or 16c at the same price. :) I've already got a 48GX (and 49, and 50), so I'm not vitally dependent on keeping this one working, but I'd hate to ruin a lovely piece of early-'90s HP hardware. Perhaps I'll play around with some of the self tests tonight, and leave it as-is if that doesn't produce any useful results. -Dave Britten === Subject: Re: Stuck LCD annunciators on 48G I'm assuming there's some sort of ribbon cable that's loose/corroded/ > breaking (hopefully not option 3). Is this something that would be an > easy fix, or would I be likely to cause more problems than I'd solve? > Like I said, it's perfectly fine as far as I can tell, from a > functional standpoint. I'd think the first thing to do would be to run the self test and see if it finds anything (do you have a manual?). - Kurt === Subject: Re: Connecting the 50G to the internet > Brandon Del Bel <> schrieb im >> The second thing I noticed is that navigator >> 0.08+ has a few lines of garbage on the bottom of the display. Here is >> an example:http://mancubus.net/~exp/files/garbage.jpg >> Remember that most software was written before the 49g+/50g came out, >> and so most software doesn't make use of the extra pixel lines. >> Raymond > I understand that most of the software wasn't intended for the larger > display, but the description for version 0.08+ on hpcalc.org says > This version is for the 49G+ and 50G only, because it uses the entire > 131x80 display. > Hmm, then there's something which doesn't match, > be it either the description or the program itself;-) Humm... right, the version available on hpcalc was not the right > one... I submitted an update to Eric Rechlin a few minutes ago, and I hope he > will be able to perform an update soon. www.hp-sources.comhas been down for a couple of years now, and I feel > it will not re-appear very soon, sorry. AND of course, the hp50g can surf the internet, but you need linux and > IP forwarding, or either a RTC modem conected to the RS232C serial > port. > The version online had a display bug, but I think it was suitable > anyway. As for IRC Prime, no further version was submitted... (unfortunately). > Yoann D?sir is not right. Instead of displaying the webpage, it just displays a bunch of random garbage characters. I have the URL variable set to With the version I previously tried, nothing was left on the stack when I quit. http://mancubus.net/~exp/files/nav-ok.jpg And here is a picture of the current version attempting to display it: http://mancubus.net/~exp/files/nav-garb.jpg === Subject: Re: Donnelly's Intro to Hp-48 SYSRPL question > This book is out of print, correct? Has Mr. Donnelly ever given > permission for it to be digitized and shared electronically? Yes, indeed. Joe Horn has made it available and you can download it from here: http://www.holyjoe.org/hp/HP48.htm Bill === Subject: Re: Donnelly's Intro to Hp-48 SYSRPL question >> This book is out of print, correct? Has Mr. Donnelly ever given >> permission for it to be digitized and shared electronically? Yes, indeed. Joe Horn has made it available and you can download it > from here: > http://www.holyjoe.org/hp/HP48.htm All I could find were the examples, not the book itself. It looked like you'd have to buy it from Amazon. Tom Lake === Subject: Re: Earthlink dropped this group from their news server.... Are you using the news.east.earthlink..net news server?? I am, and as of last week the group no longer shows up in the group listing for that server === Subject: Re: My HP50G does not run with batteries Check the contacts of your battery compartment Try to bend contacts (springs) so that contact would be more reliable. Often when this problem arises, it's because the + battery terminal doesn't protrude far enough. Try another brand of batteries, or cut a little of the plastic shoulder at the positive terminals in the calculator so that the positive terminal of the batteries will make contact. Before you do anything, just to make sure that this is the problem, put some small pieces of wadded up aluminum foil between the positive terminals of the batteries and the contacts in the calculator to compensate for the insufficient length of the battery positive terminal. If the calculator works when you do this, you will know for sure what the problem is. Problem was solved with false contact in my HP === Subject: Urroz nonworking example DE's...?? In July, 'am' posted a querry on 2nd Order DE solutions with some answers. On my HP 50g, I'm unable to get Urroz's example 2nd Order numerical solution, using the 'vector - matrix' approach, to work. This appears in his book on the 49g, and has apparently been simply ported to the HP 50g 'manual' available on the web, at HP's site, and elsewhere. It's on page 16-61 in the pdf manual, with the matrix 'A' and vector 'w'. Now this solution form is pretty elementary. But it simply does not work at all on my 50g. I consistently get 'Invalid PPAR' - and looking at the PPAR produced, it is indeed nothing like what I actually entered on the diffeq form. I looked carefully for 'CAS' settings to see what may be wrong. I note that Urroz blindly uses different variable 'names' all thru the manual - and sometimes that produces gross failures. Or, is there some setting I'm missing ??? === Subject: Re: Urroz nonworking example DE's...?? Well, I did get Urroz's version (same as in 'manual' for 50g) to work as advertised. However, it does not seem to work if the coefficient matrix contains some function(s) of the indep variable. by 'am' however detail a method that does jrc a querry on 2nd Order DE solutions with some answers. === Subject: Re: Urroz nonworking example DE's...?? Well, it does work if I follow exactly his method's keystrokes. Ah - what a simple mistake on my part. I'm not even going to explain it. Too embarrassing. === Subject: Re: 35s Anomalies 2 The 49+ gives Invalid Syntax === Subject: Re: 35s Anomalies 1. The calculator turns off when either shift key is operated prior 2. A number entry that starts with depressing the E key then an A complete entry of E 2 Enter on all except the 35s puts 100 in X or BTW the HP 33s assumes a 1 and enters it automatically when the E key is the first one pressed for numeric entry. In other words it acts like all prior HP calculators and is NOT the same as the 35s. Seeing as how most other firmware seems identical, including the trig value bug, I am considering this as a 35s unique bug. Rich W === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? ACK NACK. Most algebraic calculators even today have a limit of max. 15 parenthesis to be nested. Bu even if there would be no such limit: it should be much faster to key in such a term in an RPN machine rather than in an algebraic one. Volker -- Im .9fbrigen bin ich der meinung, dass TCPA/TCG verhindert werden muss === Subject: Re: Why Did You Choose HP? One thing mentioned by both friends is the reliability of the HP units Speaking of quality, a boss of mine had relayed a story dating back to when TI had released their first scientific calculator that could kinda compete with HP (this was a long time ago, but I don't remember exactly when, or what models were released at the time). HP and TI held a showdown for a bunch of engineers at Aerospace Corp on the west coast. The HP guy would do some calculations, then the TI guy would match it, and counter. The HP guy would match it, then counter, etc.... This carried on until they essentially reached a stalemate. Finally, the HP guy paused, and threw his calculator at the wall, ricocheting it off the floor. He calmly walked over, picked it up, turned it on, and continued with using his *functional* HP. The TI guy decided to *not* attempt this little stunt, and essentially lost the contest at that point. My most recently purchased HP is the 32SII that gets used on a daily basis. I also have a 48G that I used most often back in college. I owned a 42S before the 48G that met met an unfortunate demise. My first HP was a 32S given to me by my brother-in-law (engineer) while I was still in high school (this one was eventually stolen - most likely thrown away when the thief didn't think the calculator worked because there was no '=' sign). And, some years back I was given a 25 that I will eventually get working again with a suitable power source. Why would I buy a new HP? RPN is the simple answer. After I was introduced to it with the old 32S, there was no going back. Years ago, I would also choose HP just because of the superior HP quality and service. Having seen the newest generation of HP calculators, I'm not sure that is true anymore - the new ones look kinda cheap in construction (I've never actually used anything newer than the 48G, so I really don't know - this is just my perception, and hey, my 48G and 32SII are cheap compared to my 25, so go figure). I'm just glad they are still making calculators - for a while there it looked like RPN was going to fade away. In the end, RPN will always have me coming back. - Kurt === Subject: Re: Synchronizing Emu48 with calculator because *I* needed a sw which restores the whole content of the calc after a serious crash which is the HOME-Directory and Port0. If you use STARTUP for your flag settings everything is restored exactly like it was at the time of the backup. If I find time I?ll add the improvements of the 49G+/50G (like bigger screen, using Port3 instead of Port2 or let the user choose and some other bells and whistles) someday to the program. As usual, an Italian version is possible if someone translates the messages of the lib. http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: hpgcc troubleshooting Hi folks, I've installed hpgcc 2.0 sp2 on vista, but can't compile. path and hpgcc environment seem to be set correctly. What i get is the following: arm-elf-gcc: CreateProcess: No such file or directory or, arm-elf-gcc hiworld.c -o hiworld arm-elf-gcc: CreateProcess: No such file or directory make: *** [hiworld] Error 1 or, from notepad 2 arm-elf-gcc -mtune=arm920t -mcpu=arm920t -mlittle-endian -fomit-frame- pointer -msoft-float -Wall -Os -I../include -L../lib -mthumb-interwork -mthumb -c hiworld.c arm-elf-gcc: CreateProcess: No such file or directory make: *** [hiworld.o] Error 1 I also tried that: http://benjamin.maurin.free.fr/HP49G+/development/arm/ Ideas? === Subject: Re: hpgcc troubleshooting It would not run for me on Vista. I just recently went to ubuntu virtualizing XP to do win specific stuff (because frankly vista sucks- ran it for 2-3 months and had nothing but trouble), so I never found a solution. TW === Subject: Re: hpgcc troubleshooting Any chance to have a vista compatibilty in the near future or a vista fix in vista sp1? JF === Subject: Re: hpgcc troubleshooting There seems to be a problem between Vista and the GNU toolchain for ARM that we are using. We can't do much except to wait for the next release of the toolchain, I'm sure they will fix the incompatibility soon. For now, use a winXP VM. If you carefully read your Vista user's license agreement, it says you are free to use any older MS OS to resolve compatibility issues. At least mine says that. Claudio === Subject: HP 33s and 35s Functional Differences The following functional differences between the 33s and 35s have been noted so far. 1. On the 35s the back arrow key repeats if held down. No repeat on the 33s. 2. The 35s allows Goto a program line number in a program. The 33s does not. It can only Goto a label in a program, requiring additional use of the 26 total available labels for loops and subroutines. I consider the 35s change a definite needed programming enhancement. 3. The 33s has function preview for most keys while the 35s does not. Hold down a key on the 33s and the function to be done appears in the display. Not incorporated on the 35s. The 33s implementation is not too useful IMO as it does not include nulling the function execution if the key is kept depressed for longer than about 1 second as the HP 41C series and 42s do. 4. 33s programs run considerably faster, about 1.6 times faster it appears. Considering the similarities between units, including both having the Tangent error bug, I suspect that the 35s has had the clock slowed to give better battery life. Anyone know if this is true? 5. As noted in another post the 33s accepts a input of E 3 Enter to put 1000 on the stack while the 35s gives an error at such an input, requiring a number be entered before the Exponent key is pressed. For me the classic and more readable keyboard, along with the Goto line number function, make the 35s a more desirable unit. This is spite of the slower program execution. minimal text handling capability per the manuals. The only way to enter a custom alphanumeric message or prompt per the manual is to use the equation writer function in a program and then set flag 10. This will cause the equation to be displayed rather than evaluated when the program is run. This limitation seems ridiculous on a programmable calculator with a full alphanumeric display and makes the recent question posted regarding inputting notes into the 33s self evidently very difficult to implement. Neither unit is particularly programmer or user friendly due to the labels and prompting limitations as well as the limitation of only 26 directly addressable data registers. These are definitely numeric calculators with absolutely minimal alpha capabilities other than not using key matrix encoding for program internal representation. Rich W === Subject: Re: HP 33s and 35s Functional Differences You forgot one: the 35s supports a complex number data type. The primary reason I upgraded to a 35s Charles Perry P.E. === Subject: Re: HP 33s and 35s Functional Differences : You forgot one: the 35s supports a complex number data type. : The primary reason I upgraded to a 35s Unfortunatly the complex number capabilities of the 35S is very limited! -- ------------------- Keep working millions on welfare depend on you === Subject: HP-50g thin, why not? A while back I replaced the batteries in my hp 49g+ with a thin lithium polymer battery. I was a little surprised that the whole back portion of the calculator is totally empty except for the battery compartment. If HP were to replace the batteries with a lithium polymer (which works, by the way), it could be considerably thinner. In fact, the whole thing could be put on a diet, and without redesigning any of the electronics, keys, whatever, it could be similar in size to the 33s (and I'm guessing the 35s). Why don't they do this? I know some people will say the shape in their hand, or heft, but someone could just make a rubber carrier for it (like the rubber thing on a good multimeter) that would protect it from drops and give it a better, industrial, look and feel. Anyway, that's my thoughts. -Jonathan === Subject: Re: HP-50g thin, why not? compartment. If HP were to replace the batteries with a lithium And then it would have to be recharged all the time. I don't know how long the batteries last on the 50g, but I seem to remember they used to make it almost a year (or maybe it was just a semester) with my 48G. The batteries lasted years when I wasn't using that calculator for anything other than balancing the checkbook. It wouldn't be quite that simple, would it? They'd have to design a carrier to allow the polymer to be removed and replaced when it wears out, and they'd have to add charging circuitry and an AC adapter. I imagine that would add quite a bit to the cost of the unit. Apple doesn't! Seriously, if they assemble the case with screws like the 35s and you can toss in a standard sized battery with a little plug, I doubt anyone would complain. Or ask the iPaq guys to use one of their batteries, and already have the design/production problem solved. very low current, and with decent charging circuitry, not even picky. How much do you pay for a cell phone charger off ebay? It should cost less than that to make.... So, $10 total, in quantities of 1, excluding the change to the molding for the case. This seems like a low price to pay to have a product that stands out in a sea of graphing calculators. Why does an HP 50g need to look just like a TI-89 (if you take off your glasses)? Why not make a RAZR (in terms of style and market success) of a calculator? === Subject: Re: HP-50g thin, why not? that stands out in a sea of graphing calculators. Why does an HP 50g Some of it also might be a durability issue. The 33s is already too much like a cell phone in terms of styling. - === Subject: Re: HP-50g thin, why not? The 33s is already too much like a cell phone in terms of styling. I mean more along the lines of being leaner, with a more solid density, and better feel. People seem to like their scientific calculators reasonably thin, without a bunch of open space inside. A small lithium polymer battery would be about 1000mAh, which is comparable to AAA batteries. However, since you don't have memory effects, and can charge while operating, you could plug it in occasionally while you're at your desk (or use some power from the USB port, as I did) and never see the low battery warning... ever. anyway..... === Subject: This is Crazy...!!! re: HP48 Font for Macintosh i used to have one of these, and i'm sure that it was on the Goodies Disk(s) But i can't find it now...??? i've looked all over on the internet, and it seems to have gone away...??? Actually; The font can work on either Wintel or Macintosh Platforms ( i have a translator ) But it's totally Kooky that i can't find it...??? --- i did find a HUGE collection of fonts on HP48.org (???) and they seemed to be in the right format, but my OSX insisted that they were all corrupted...???!!! ( ??? ) [ !!! ] === Subject: Re: Battery Charge in hp48g i'm very surprised that no one mentioned that you can check the battery levels on an HP48gx by Hitting ON/D Then MTH... The display reads ESD 210V and under that are bars that blink and sometimes it's very hard to read what they say, because it blinks off very quickly, but if the batteries are really good, then the display stays on, and no bars appear...??? Or something like that...??? === Subject: Re: Battery Charge in hp48g The HP-48 has a ML entry called =ChkLowBat, IN: Interrupts disabled OUT: USE: A[A],B[A],C[A],D[A],D0,ST,P,CY The above routine is called for some energy-intensive tasks, No software listed Here for the 48 series to do so other than some http://www.hpcalc.org/ That is presumably a flag setting but I could not find a listing for a Rich Wood understand so much about ML, how do i input this routine in the calc? === Subject: Re: Battery Charge in hp48g This program will return %1 if the battery status is low, or %0 if the battery is still OK. :: CK0 CODE GOSBVL =SAVPTR GOSBVL =DisableIntr GOSBVL =ChkLowBat GOSBVL =AllowIntr GOVLNG =GPPushT/FLp ENDCODE COERCEFLAG ( *This turns T into 1, and F into 0* ) ; Some notes: =AllowIntr is supposed to preserve the state of the carry flag. The word COERCEFLAG has to stay at the end of a seco, because it makes an implied jump to DOSEMI. In other words, COERCEFLAG ends the current secondary. The ML code layout is conservative, but works as expected. You can compile the above text to a program directly on your calc using either JAZZ by Mika Heiskanen, Alternatively, I can send you an HP-48 binary via email. === Subject: Re: Battery Charge in hp48g [..] This program will return %1 if the battery status is low, :: CK0 CODE COERCEFLAG ( *This turns T into 1, and F into 0* ) Some notes: The ML code layout is conservative, but works as expected. You can compile the above text to a program directly on your calc Alternatively, I can send you an HP-48 binary via email. HTH Raymond Sounds like the programs listed here just give a low battery indication and cannot actually give a quantified battery condition as is apparently possible for the 49G+ and 50G. An already written downloadable 48 battery program appears to be available from here. http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=2751 Rich W === Subject: Re: Battery Charge in hp48g IN: Interrupts disabled OUT: USE: A[A],B[A],C[A],D[A],D0,ST,P,CY The above routine is called for some energy-intensive tasks, HTH Raymond a understand so much about ML, how do i input this routine in the calc? Could anybody tell me how can i compile it to a binary that returns the remaining voltage??? or that gives me at least the state of bat?? === Subject: Re: Battery Charge in hp48g HP48 complete battery tester (reports any low main or card battery in status area) Or to test manually: Press OFF, then ON :) -=-=-=- === Subject: Re: Batteries Reports > About 18 months ago Joe Horn reported on experiments with Panasionic > Oxyride batteries in the 49G+ with positive results. With it's > additional current draw sounds like they would be good on the 50G > too. Has anyone tried them in this application? Joe also noted that he intended to experiment with the 1.5V Energizer > Lithium batteries in the 49G+ and report on his results. I have not > found this report yet and wondered if it was posted? Rich Wood I'm currently using Duracell Power Pix cells which is a Nickel Oxy Hydroxide Battery. Oxyrides are the same makeup. I was playing Yathzee for about an hour at the airport and the battery monitor finally dropped to 5.85 volts. Prior to that with casual use and some programming, about an hour's worth, it stayed over 6 volts. I put the batteries in before I installed the battery monitor program but the old 49G+ program kept showing 100% I won't know the initial starting levels until these go dead and I replace them. I think the oxy types are worth the cost. === Subject: HP50 and News Group Help I need help downloading the news group messages. I'm using Outlook Express and it shows the group has 10289 messages, but I can't get messages any earlier than 8/17/07. In addition, I'm used to writing programs that create columnar data. I haven't found any indication that the calculator really supports this output form. I looked for a formatting function w/o success. The HP4948aug didn't present anything in this area either. Do the members in this group regularily use the calculator graphing capabilities or is this more commonly used by students? Jim === Subject: Re: HP50 and News Group Help > I need help downloading the news group messages. > I'm using Outlook Express and it shows the group has 10289 messages, > but I can't get messages any earlier than 8/17/07. Individual news servers (the NNTP server specified in Outlook Express) retain messages for whatever length of time they choose, then they drop older messages off, so it is not possible to download any messages older than the limit which the individual server operator elects to carry. Google archives messages indefinitely, however, and has a search engine (which NNTP-based news servers do not), e.g.: Complete search engine: Topics, with first-posted text: Topics alone, most recently active first: > In addition, I'm used to writing programs that create columnar data. The Matrix Editor can display data tables, either from an actual matrix or from a list of lists An experimental ROM had a built-in spreadsheet application; contributed libraries implementing spreadsheets are also available. The graphing system includes a tabular screen output format, for presenting graphs as a table, which continues generating values for as long as you choose to scroll it. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: HP50 and News Group Help Rich & John: News Group. It seems that the graphing system is a good candidate if I wish to display tabulated data. Jim === Subject: Re: HP50 and News Group Help [Google links] Updated one Google link below [adding gvc=1] Complete search engine: Topics, with first-posted text: Topics alone, most recently active first: [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: HP50 and News Group Help > I need help downloading the news group messages. I'm using Outlook Express > and it shows the group has 10289 messages, but I can't get messages any > earlier than 8/17/07. > In addition, I'm used to writing programs that create columnar data. I > haven't found any indication that the calculator really supports this output > form. I looked for a formatting function w/o success. The HP4948aug didn't > present anything in this area either. > Do the members in this group regularily use the calculator graphing > capabilities or is this more commonly used by students? Jim Jim; Actually go to the group site on line using a web browser as the true message total is over 50,000 and from on site subject searches are readily available going back 10+ years. I know of no calculator designed to handle data output in a columnar format other than a printing calculator's single column record of calculations. Considering that the scientific calculator was originally designed as a replacement for the slide rule and still has the limitation of a small display and relatively slow operating speed I am frequently amazed at the capabilities some people want and/or expect. Large displays for columnar data and similar capabilities are best handled by a PC and a program such as Mathematica I would think. Rich W === Subject: Re: quaternions/tensors on HP50g > I am thinking about upgrading from an HP48gx to an HP50g for > increased speed, memory and data exchange via SD. My primary > interest is computing with quaternions and 4d tensors (general > relativity). Has anyone done these calculations with an HP50g? Dave Feustel I have a couple of implementations of quaternion routines on my 50g. If I were doing it today, I'd might just use the new library that Virgil mentioned. It looks very thorough. Then again, I wouldn't have learned nearly as much. Method-I If you're interested in doing it yourself, the first method I used could be done in RPL on your 48. You can simply use a list or vector to hold your values: a+bi+cj+dk becomes {a b c d} or [a b c d]. For most operations, I would first decompose this list into scalar and vector components {a [b c d]} to make the math easier. For example, to multiply 1a+2i+3j+4k and 5+6i+7j+8k, pass arguments 1 [2 3 4] 5 [6 7 8] -> r1 v1 r2 v2. The answer would be calculated r1*r2 - (v1 dot v2) + r1*v2 + r2*v1 + (v1 cross v2). This answer could then be put back in whatever format you started with. You can do similar operations for other operations and transcendentals. (http://www.theworld.com/~sweetser/quaternions/intro/tools/tools.html) Method-II My second method uses a totally different approach inspired by a discussion in this newsgroup a couple of years ago concerning the DIAGMAP function. (I don't think the 48 has this function.) Quaternions can be expressed in a 2x2 diagonalizable matrix form: a+bi+cj+dk becomes [[a+bi c+di] [-c+di a-bi]]. This allows for one to make a general method for taking a function of a quaternion by converting to a matrix of complex numbers, using DIAGMAP with the function of your choice, then converting the resulting complex matrix back to quaternion form. For example, if you created a function called Q->M which converts a quaternion to its matrix form and another function M->Q that converts the matrix back to a quaternion, then to calculate the sine of the quaternion you would put the quaternion on the stack and run Q->M << SIN >> DIAGMAP M->Q Or what I did was to make a another program called QMAP << SWAP Q->M SWAP DIAGMAP M->Q >> so that in order to calculate the sine, I could just put the quaternion on the stack and run << SIN >> QMAP which could be the contents of a QSIN function. This would make it extremely easy to define a quaternion version of any function that works on complex numbers. This DIAGMAP process was very educational for me. DIAGMAP automates much of the math, but doing the diagonalization process by hand helped me appreciate the differences between quaternions and commutative hypercomplex numbers (http://home.usit.net/~cmdaven/hyprcplx.htm). Applying this process to commutative hypercomplex numbers leads to some really beautiful math. -wes === Subject: Re: quaternions/tensors on HP50g >> I am thinking about upgrading from an HP48gx to an HP50g for >> increased speed, memory and data exchange via SD. My primary >> interest is computing with quaternions and 4d tensors (general >> relativity). Has anyone done these calculations with an HP50g? >> Dave Feustel I have a couple of implementations of quaternion routines on my 50g. > If I were doing it today, I'd might just use the new library that > Virgil mentioned. It looks very thorough. Then again, I wouldn't > have learned nearly as much. Method-I > If you're interested in doing it yourself, the first method I used > could be done in RPL on your 48. You can simply use a list or vector > to hold your values: a+bi+cj+dk becomes {a b c d} or [a b c d]. For > most operations, I would first decompose this list into scalar and > vector components {a [b c d]} to make the math easier. For example, to multiply 1a+2i+3j+4k and 5+6i+7j+8k, pass arguments 1 > [2 3 4] 5 [6 7 8] -> r1 v1 r2 v2. The answer would be calculated > r1*r2 - (v1 dot v2) + r1*v2 + r2*v1 + (v1 cross v2). This answer > could then be put back in whatever format you started with. You can > do similar operations for other operations and transcendentals. > (http://www.theworld.com/~sweetser/quaternions/intro/tools/tools.html) Method-II > My second method uses a totally different approach inspired by a > discussion in this newsgroup a couple of years ago concerning the > DIAGMAP function. (I don't think the 48 has this function.) Quaternions can be expressed in a 2x2 diagonalizable matrix form: > a+bi+cj+dk becomes [[a+bi c+di] [-c+di a-bi]]. This allows for > one to make a general method for taking a function of a quaternion by > converting to a matrix of complex numbers, using DIAGMAP with the > function of your choice, then converting the resulting complex matrix > back to quaternion form. For example, if you created a function called Q->M which converts a > quaternion to its matrix form and another function M->Q that converts > the matrix back to a quaternion, then to calculate the sine of the > quaternion you would put the quaternion on the stack and run Q->M << SIN >> DIAGMAP M->Q Or what I did was to make a another program called QMAP << SWAP Q->M SWAP DIAGMAP M->Q so that in order to calculate the sine, I could just put the > quaternion on the stack and run << SIN >> QMAP which could be the contents of a QSIN function. This would make it > extremely easy to define a quaternion version of any function that > works on complex numbers. This DIAGMAP process was very educational for me. DIAGMAP automates > much of the math, but doing the diagonalization process by hand helped > me appreciate the differences between quaternions and commutative > hypercomplex numbers (http://home.usit.net/~cmdaven/hyprcplx.htm). > Applying this process to commutative hypercomplex numbers leads to > some really beautiful math. -wes > I did a lot of work with quaternions back on my 48sx and later with the 48gx. Now my focus has shifted almost totally to 4-d tensors, for which there seems to be no support on calculators. I expect to have to program all my own stuff using CAS support if possible. It may be that the computational requirements of tensor calculations within CAS are beyond the capabilities of calculators. In that case I will just have to do tensor calculations on my computer using Maxima, Axiom, Jacal or equivalent. -- === Subject: Re: quaternions/tensors on HP50g I did a lot of work with quaternions back on my 48sx and later with the > 48gx. > Now my focus has shifted almost totally to 4-d tensors, for which there > seems > to be no support on calculators. I expect to have to program all my own > stuff > using CAS support if possible. It may be that the computational > requirements > of tensor calculations within CAS are beyond the capabilities of > calculators. > In that case I will just have to do tensor calculations on my computer > using > Maxima, Axiom, Jacal or equivalent. When I grow up, I need to learn tensor calculus. I am trying to understand gravity (general relativity), and while I think I understand the basics, knowing some of the math would help even more. For example, it would be cool to learn how to construct an object (e.g. an oddly-shaped planet) that would create a region of space-time with constant curvature. Perhaps this has already been done, but I would like to know how to do it. Bob === Subject: Re: quaternions/tensors on HP50g >> I did a lot of work with quaternions back on my 48sx and later with the >> 48gx. >> Now my focus has shifted almost totally to 4-d tensors, for which there >> seems >> to be no support on calculators. I expect to have to program all my own >> stuff >> using CAS support if possible. It may be that the computational >> requirements >> of tensor calculations within CAS are beyond the capabilities of >> calculators. >> In that case I will just have to do tensor calculations on my computer >> using >> Maxima, Axiom, Jacal or equivalent. When I grow up, I need to learn tensor calculus. I am trying to understand > gravity (general relativity), and while I think I understand the basics, > knowing some of the math would help even more. For example, it would be cool to learn how to construct an object (e.g. an > oddly-shaped planet) that would create a region of space-time with constant > curvature. Perhaps this has already been done, but I would like to know how > to do it. Bob See aias.us and atomicprecision.com for a new theory that merges general relativity, quantum mechanics and electromagnetism and which is currently being checked for consistency with Maxima. I'm learning about tensors by reading a book by Sean M. Carroll, _An Introduction to General Relativity_. Dave === Subject: Re: quaternions/tensors on HP50g >> I did a lot of work with quaternions back on my 48sx and later with the > 48gx. > Now my focus has shifted almost totally to 4-d tensors, for which there > seems > to be no support on calculators. I expect to have to program all my own > stuff > using CAS support if possible. It may be that the computational > requirements > of tensor calculations within CAS are beyond the capabilities of > calculators. > In that case I will just have to do tensor calculations on my computer > using > Maxima, Axiom, Jacal or equivalent. >> When I grow up, I need to learn tensor calculus. I am trying to >> understand >> gravity (general relativity), and while I think I understand the basics, >> knowing some of the math would help even more. >> For example, it would be cool to learn how to construct an object (e.g. >> an >> oddly-shaped planet) that would create a region of space-time with >> constant >> curvature. Perhaps this has already been done, but I would like to know >> how >> to do it. >> Bob See aias.us and atomicprecision.com for a new theory that merges > general relativity, quantum mechanics and electromagnetism and > which is currently being checked for consistency with Maxima. I'm learning about tensors by reading a book by Sean M. Carroll, > _An Introduction to General Relativity_. Dave unified field could be verified while we're still alive-and-kickin'. Bob === Subject: Re: quaternions/tensors on HP50g >>>>> I did a lot of work with quaternions back on my 48sx and later with the >> 48gx. >> Now my focus has shifted almost totally to 4-d tensors, for which there >> seems >> to be no support on calculators. I expect to have to program all my own >> stuff >> using CAS support if possible. It may be that the computational >> requirements >> of tensor calculations within CAS are beyond the capabilities of >> calculators. >> In that case I will just have to do tensor calculations on my computer >> using >> Maxima, Axiom, Jacal or equivalent. >>>> When I grow up, I need to learn tensor calculus. I am trying to > understand > gravity (general relativity), and while I think I understand the basics, > knowing some of the math would help even more. >> For example, it would be cool to learn how to construct an object (e.g. > an > oddly-shaped planet) that would create a region of space-time with > constant > curvature. Perhaps this has already been done, but I would like to know > how > to do it. >> Bob >> See aias.us and atomicprecision.com for a new theory that merges >> general relativity, quantum mechanics and electromagnetism and >> which is currently being checked for consistency with Maxima. >> I'm learning about tensors by reading a book by Sean M. Carroll, >> _An Introduction to General Relativity_. >> Dave grail unified field could be verified while we're still > alive-and-kickin'. Bob > Dave, Is this the book you're speaking of? Its author is Sean B. Carroll (not M.) Spacetime and Geometry: An Introduction to General Relativity Carroll, Sean B. List Price: $103.00 BINC: 7156610 ISBN: 0805387323 Shelf Location: Science > Physics Description: Spacetime and Geometry: An Introduction to General Relativity provides a lucid and thoroughly modern introduction to general relativity. With an accessible and lively writing style, it introduces modern techniques to what can often be a formal and intimidating subject. Readers are led from the physics of flat spacetime (special relativity), through the intricacies of differential geometry and Einstein's equations, and on to exciting applications such as black holes, gravitational radiation, and cosmology. For advanced undergraduates and graduate students, or anyone interested in astronomy, cosmology, physics, or general relativity. Bob === Subject: Re: quaternions/tensors on HP50g >> When I grow up, I need to learn tensor calculus. I am trying to >> understand >> gravity (general relativity), and while I think I understand the basics, >> knowing some of the math would help even more. >> For example, it would be cool to learn how to construct an object (e.g. >> an >> oddly-shaped planet) that would create a region of space-time with >> constant >> curvature. Perhaps this has already been done, but I would like to know >> how >> to do it. >> Bob > See aias.us and atomicprecision.com for a new theory that merges > general relativity, quantum mechanics and electromagnetism and > which is currently being checked for consistency with Maxima. >> I'm learning about tensors by reading a book by Sean M. Carroll, > _An Introduction to General Relativity_. >> Dave >> grail unified field could be verified while we're still >> alive-and-kickin'. >> Bob Dave, Is this the book you're speaking of? Its author is Sean B. Carroll (not M.) Spacetime and Geometry: An Introduction to General Relativity > Carroll, Sean B. > List Price: $103.00 > BINC: 7156610 ISBN: 0805387323 Shelf Location: Science > Physics Description: Spacetime and Geometry: An Introduction to General Relativity > provides a lucid and thoroughly modern introduction to general relativity. > With an accessible and lively writing style, it introduces modern techniques > to what can often be a formal and intimidating subject. Readers are led from > the physics of flat spacetime (special relativity), through the intricacies > of differential geometry and Einstein's equations, and on to exciting > applications such as black holes, gravitational radiation, and cosmology. > For advanced undergraduates and graduate students, or anyone interested in > astronomy, cosmology, physics, or general relativity. > Bob Yes. Get it from Amazon and save yourself a few bucks. This may well be the best GR book out there. An early version of the notes upon which the book are based is also available as a pdf on the web. Note that standard GR has no torsion which is needed for EM. Evans has added torsion to GM and now his theory explains many effects in nonlinear optics about which MH is completely silent. To read about GR with torsion, you have to get Evans books on Unified field theory (3 volumes so far, at least 2 more in the works). All of Evans work can be accessed at atomicprecision.com. === Subject: Re: quaternions/tensors on HP50g > I am thinking about upgrading from an HP48gx to an HP50g for >> increased speed, memory and data exchange via SD. My primary >> interest is computing with quaternions and 4d tensors (general >> relativity). Has anyone done these calculations with an HP50g? >> Dave Feustel >> -- One can program quaternion arithmetic fairly easily on the hp50. There is even a quaternion library for the hp50 at http://www.hpcalc.org. I haven't tried 4d tensors, but I suspect something could be done there, > too. Quaternion multiplication is the most complicated function to program. 4-d tensors are a lot more complicated and really require a computer algebra system to be used effectively. I'm not sure that a calculator is powerful enough to do tensors. I live in hope, though. -- === Subject: Re: Using TOFF to delay calc turnoff >> 48gs ?? >> Is there such a thing? > Perhaps not. But you can buy a replacement case for one just in case > someday there is such a thing. (Or so the site claims.) > http://www.calculatorshop.co.uk/acatalog/HP calculator cases.html The HP 48G series zip up soft case description was meant to say HP 48G, HP 48S [not GS], HP 48G+ and HP 48GX. NOT suitable for the HP 48Gii But my old original HP48 cases happen to fit my 49G+ perfectly well, so why not all other 49G+/50G/48Gxx ? The 40GS mentions USB and serial ports, but doesn't seem to mention flash: http://h50055.www5.hp.com/calculators/au/en/graphing/40gs/ http://h41111.www4.hp.com/calculators/uk/en/graphing/40gs/ 39GS (and others) on sale (i.e. near the normal price elsewhere) thru 2007/09/22: http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/215348-215348-64232-30821-2153 50-1812520.html http://h30094.www3.hp.com/specials.asp?jumpid=re R2515 store/enProdCat/PSG/promo/seealloffers [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Using TOFF to delay calc turnoff >> Built-in on all HP49 series calculators: 49G/49G+/50G/48Gii/48gs > 48gs ?? Is there such a thing? Apparently there once was, according to some interesting sources: What is an HP 48GS? [May 7-9, 2007] [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Non-programmable RPN Calculator Hello All, I've just found out that in two of my classes this term I am being forbidden from using a programmable calculator. Having used my 48gx and then my 50g extensively for the last few years I find the thought of returning to an algebraic calculator difficult to accept! What I need is an RPN calculator that does not allow formula or equations to be stored in memory. My professor doesn't mind if it can actually run a program per se, but it is the possibility of having access to data in your calculator during his closed-book exams. The nearest model that I can see in the current lineup is the 33s or 35s. I've never used either, but maybe somebody that has could let me know if saving formulas is possible. If not, does anybody have any other models to suggest? Since I already have a 50g that I will use for all my other courses I don't really want to buy something exceedingly expensive (e.g. most HP calcs on eBay!). BTW, how is the complex number handling of the 33s and 35s? I'm in Electrical Engineering so I use them quite extensively. Ryan === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator > What I need is an RPN calculator that does not allow formulas > or equations to be stored in memory. Several of the financial models have both RPN and a solver, but the solver, although it can store equations, usually does not even have built-in trig functions (you can still store them as text, however). === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator [omitted] Hmm.. that draft was supposed to have been trashed, but I guess the wrong button must have been pushed :) Since the financial calcs don't even have trig functions, they are also not very useful as general calculators for exams, alas. But if arithmetic, powers, logs, exponentials, factorials, and the value of pi are sufficient, go for it! [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator they are also not very useful as general calculators for exams, alas. But if arithmetic, powers, logs, exponentials, factorials, and the value of pi > are sufficient, go for it! Unfortunately, complex math and trig are requirements for my field. The HP-15C is perfect for my needs, but of course costs a fortune on eBay. I feel that I will simply have to go talk to my professor and convince him that the 33s or 35s is acceptable. Failing that, I am going to have to go back to the stone ages of calculators. :( You would think that there would still be a market out there for a simple $20 calculator that uses RPN and supports the features that any $20 algebraic scientific will provide. Trig, Logs, Sqrt, Powers, Exponentials, Polar/Degree and hopefully Complex Numbers. The $25 Sharp EL-546W I have does all that as well as Matrices and some basic Stats. Oh well... === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator Since the financial calcs don't even have trig functions, > they are also not very useful as general calculators for exams, alas. > But if arithmetic, powers, logs, exponentials, factorials, and the value of pi > are sufficient, go for it! Unfortunately, complex math and trig are requirements for my field. > The HP-15C is perfect for my needs, but of course costs a fortune on > eBay. I feel that I will simply have to go talk to my professor and > convince him that the 33s or 35s is acceptable. Failing that, I am > going to have to go back to the stone ages of calculators. :( You would think that there would still be a market out there for a > simple $20 calculator that uses RPN and supports the features that any > $20 algebraic scientific will provide. Trig, Logs, Sqrt, Powers, > Exponentials, Polar/Degree and hopefully Complex Numbers. The $25 > Sharp EL-546W I have does all that as well as Matrices and some basic > Stats. Oh well... The 15c was one of the first, if not the first, calculators to handle complex numbers as built in functions w/o extensive programming work arounds and while programmable it had no alphanumeric capability for notes. Expensive though as noted as I have ordered one, with a manual, for my accumulation of HP calculators. The cheapest one the non ebay seller has is $200 though. The last new one that showed up on ebay apparently went for close to $1000! So far as I know by about 1978 at the latest all RPN calculators other than HP were gone from the market. Several of the early RPN competitors were brain damaged compared to the HP RPN implementations and none had complex number capability. I have an early Commodore RPN calculator and it leaves much to be desired. I would ask the professor if could use the 35s if brought it into class and physically installed the batteries in front of him. That would certainly guarantee no equations or notes in memory. The 35s's alphanumeric capability for notes seems pretty minimal. They have to be entered as equations and read with a flag set that prevents the calculator from trying to actually solve them, per the manual. A simple non programmable RPN unit with complex number functions and hyperbolics seems logical to me but I have no idea if there would be a current market for it. I can remember when the HP calculators dominated college book store calculator sales, at least for engineering and science students. Rich W === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator >You would think that there would still be a market out there for a >simple $20 calculator that uses RPN and supports the features that any >$20 algebraic scientific will provide. For whom?... A.L. === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator >You would think that there would still be a market out there for a >>simple $20 calculator that uses RPN and supports the features that any >>$20 algebraic scientific will provide. >For whom?... For student students, to compete with the TI strangle-hold. HP may not wish to enter the market, but it's still there. -- Chris. === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator >>You would think that there would still be a market out there for a >simple $20 calculator that uses RPN and supports the features that any >$20 algebraic scientific will provide. >For whom?... >For student students, to compete with the TI strangle-hold. >HP may not wish to enter the market, but it's still there. What is wrong with using algebraic calculator?... Do you have problems with understanding parentheses?... This is not so hard, you know... A.L. === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator >You would think that there would still be a market out there for a >simple $20 calculator that uses RPN and supports the features that any >$20 algebraic scientific will provide. > >>For whom?... > >For student students, to compete with the TI strangle-hold. >HP may not wish to enter the market, but it's still there. What is wrong with using algebraic calculator?... Do you have problems > with understanding parentheses?... This is not so hard, you know... A.L. When one gets nested parens more than 2 levels deep under exam pressure, something is almost certain to go wrong. Less likely for one who understands RPN. === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator with understanding parentheses?... This is not so hard, you know... No, it's not hard per se. Obviously many people get by just fine using algebraic. But I've been using RPN exclusively for nearly 7 years, and it simply becomes second nature to enter formulae in a certain way. Going back to an algebraic calculator with cheap, unresponsive keys and awkward complex number and matrix support (at least once you've tried the wonderful HP 48/49/50 implementation) is a very difficult thing to do. I guess I'm just bitter because somebody is making me give up my favorite toy. ;) Ryan === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator >For student students, to compete with the TI strangle-hold. ^^^^^^^ school (oops) >HP may not wish to enter the market, but it's still there. -- Chris. === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator I can second that. I use a 50g exclusively for work and find that when I go home I don't have a decent calc for doing general things on, banking tax that sort of stuff. I just can't bring myself to part with the $100 + AUD to buy an RPN calc for home. -- Dan Field (Surveyor) > Since the financial calcs don't even have trig functions, >> they are also not very useful as general calculators for exams, alas. >> But if arithmetic, powers, logs, exponentials, factorials, and the value >> of pi >> are sufficient, go for it! Unfortunately, complex math and trig are requirements for my field. > The HP-15C is perfect for my needs, but of course costs a fortune on > eBay. I feel that I will simply have to go talk to my professor and > convince him that the 33s or 35s is acceptable. Failing that, I am > going to have to go back to the stone ages of calculators. :( You would think that there would still be a market out there for a > simple $20 calculator that uses RPN and supports the features that any > $20 algebraic scientific will provide. Trig, Logs, Sqrt, Powers, > Exponentials, Polar/Degree and hopefully Complex Numbers. The $25 > Sharp EL-546W I have does all that as well as Matrices and some basic > Stats. Oh well... > === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator home I don't have a decent calc for doing general things on, banking tax > that sort of stuff. I just can't bring myself to part with the $100 + AUD to > buy an RPN calc for home. -- > Dan Field > (Surveyor) You can get it for less, I got mine from Samson Cables and paid only AU $84 === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator > Hello All, I've just found out that in two of my classes this term I am being > forbidden from using a programmable calculator. Having used my 48gx > and then my 50g extensively for the last few years I find the thought > of returning to an algebraic calculator difficult to accept! What I need is an RPN calculator that does not allow formula or > equations to be stored in memory. My professor doesn't mind if it can > actually run a program per se, but it is the possibility of having > access to data in your calculator during his closed-book exams. The nearest model that I can see in the current lineup is the 33s or > 35s. I've never used either, but maybe somebody that has could let me > know if saving formulas is possible. If not, does anybody have any > other models to suggest? Since I already have a 50g that I will use > for all my other courses I don't really want to buy something > exceedingly expensive (e.g. most HP calcs on eBay!). BTW, how is the complex number handling of the 33s and 35s? I'm in > Electrical Engineering so I use them quite extensively. > Ryan > The hp 15 scientific calculator did complex arithmetic and had very little programming capabilities. I used to have one but I don't know whether they are still available. You could always try working with sliderules :-). -- === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator > What I need is an RPN calculator that does not allow formula or > equations to be stored in memory. My professor doesn't mind if it can > actually run a program per se, but it is the possibility of having > access to data in your calculator during his closed-book exams. Hmm... OK. > The nearest model that I can see in the current lineup is the 33s or > 35s. I've never used either, but maybe somebody that has could let me > know if saving formulas is possible. Both can store formulae and equations, so strictly speaking they wouldn't be allowed. Although tedious, both have many tens of kilbytes of memory, so one could potentially enter plenty of notes. Off-hand I'm thinking only something like an old HP-10C would meet your criteria. Check out http://www.hpmuseum.org/ to see what all the models can and can't do. There are (or were) some non-HP RPN calculators out there, but personally I don't know if any are still avilable. Are you allowed a page of notes for your exams? If so you could probably convince the prof. that something like an HP 32S-II with only 384 bytes of storage (and somewhat more available than an HP-10C) doesn't add enough storage capabilities to your page of notes to be considered. :-) > If not, does anybody have any > other models to suggest? Since I already have a 50g that I will use > for all my other courses I don't really want to buy something > exceedingly expensive (e.g. most HP calcs on eBay!). If you end up buying something like an HP-10C you'll at least have a good chance of being able to sell it again when you're done with the course. :-) > BTW, how is the complex number handling of the 33s and 35s? I'm in > Electrical Engineering so I use them quite extensively. The 33s is rather painful to use for complex number -- you enter the imaginary part of the number on one level of the stack and the real part on another (at least with the two-line read out you can see both parts at once). The 35s is quite good, handling complex numbers natively (barring a few minor quirk that are easily worked around). ---Joel === Subject: Re: Non-programmable RPN Calculator > What I need is an RPN calculator that does not allow formula or > equations to be stored in memory. My professor doesn't mind if it can > actually run a program per se, but it is the possibility of having > access to data in your calculator during his closed-book exams. The nearest model that I can see in the current lineup is the 33s or > 35s. I've never used either, but maybe somebody that has could let me > know if saving formulas is possible. If not, does anybody have any > other models to suggest? Since I already have a 50g that I will use > for all my other courses I don't really want to buy something > exceedingly expensive (e.g. most HP calcs on eBay!). Sorry, Ryan, but I think that you're going to be disappointed. Both the 33S and 35S allow formulas to be stored. The only calc in HP's current range that meets your test conditions is the HP-12C. But since that is a financial model rather than scientific, I assume it will be of no use. Worse still, the historical models that meet your requirements tend to be the expensive ones as well. :-( So eBay is definitely out of the question. > BTW, how is the complex number handling of the 33s and 35s? I'm in > Electrical Engineering so I use them quite extensively. The 35S is the better of the two but still may not be quite good enough. -- Bruce Horrocks Surrey England (bruce at scorecrow dot com) === Subject: HPcalc.org Commerce Site Update Take a look at Eric's update of the commerce site. Has quite a nice collection of information on all the calcs and a serial cable that I know functions perfectly as I've tested them on a wide variety of cheap (and not so cheap) surveying equipment. Some other cable designs I've tried have the annoying tendency to drop the first character, or spit out a garbage char on first transmission after an OPENIO. http://commerce.hpcalc.org/ TW === Subject: Re: HPcalc.org Commerce Site Update TW ha scritto: > Take a look at Eric's update of the commerce site. Has quite a nice > collection of information on all the calcs and a serial cable that I > know functions perfectly as I've tested them on a wide variety of > cheap (and not so cheap) surveying equipment. Some other cable > designs I've tried have the annoying tendency to drop the first > character, or spit out a garbage char on first transmission after an > OPENIO. http://commerce.hpcalc.org/ TW Hi Tim. I just had a look at the cabel, and even though I really don't need one, I'd like to buy it - it seems well designed and made :-) I just was sighing for the shipping to Italy that would be far more than the cost of the cable itself :-/ Giancarlo