1481 === Subject: Re: For collectors ... >> Too expensive for me , but it's exceptional. Perhaps some of you could >> be interested ... >> http://cgi.ebay.com/Microcomputer-Elektronika-MK-90-DEC-PDP-11-based-NIB_W0QQ itemZ200207762988QQihZ010QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp163 8.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem >> Philippe Looks Casio to me. Freely translated from Cmdr. Chekov: Take a look at the Russian original;-) === Subject: Testing for library presence. I want to writ a program which will take advantage of some libraries that I have in stalled but can also be made to work, though perhaps not so neatly, when one or more of those libraries are not installed. The best I have been able to do is the following fragment, when the library is in flash memory and has number xxx: IFERR :2:xxx VTYPE THEN do_without_library ELSE DROP do_with_library END Can anyone do better? === Subject: Re: Testing for library presence. [use a library, if installed, assuming UserRPL] Since a library may be stored in any port, perhaps :&:nnn VTYPE should be tested (this seems to error on HP49/50 iff library nnn is not found, though I don't know whether this is guaranteed foolproof, including against a library just stored but not yet installed); it also doesn't error on HP48G[X], on which you just get -1 result, and it's also theoretically possible to create a variable named 'nnn' (anything nnn S~N STO) One could also just plunge ahead and execute the first needed library function, by number, e.g. #LLLNNNh LIBEVAL (error #4 indicating that the function wasn't found). Or dynamically compile a visible command name e.g. ::WXYZ STR-> DTAG and test for resulting object type; this is slower, however, and also compiles a ROMPTR (type 14) only if library is also attached, which not all libs need be (nor do all have any visible commands, etc.) Note that whenever IFERR is used, flag -55 decides whether last-saved user command arguments are restored after an error, so one may need either to set or test the flag state, to guarantee absence of a flag-dependency bug (even HP has published programs neglecting that, including APLY in the 48G AUR, also embedded in the HP48G[X] via TEACH) === Subject: Re: Testing for library presence. Le 09 avril 2008, Virgil a .8ecrit : > IFERR :2:xxx VTYPE > THEN do_without_library > ELSE DROP do_with_library > END You can use the LIBS command. That's better (may be slower, though) than the solution you proposed, because it checks for other ports and you can match against the name of the library. If the library uses a messages table, the fastest way is probably to check for them with Ç IFERR #XXXYY DOERR THEN ERRM Expected error msg == END È where XXX is the library ID and YY the message number. When I'm writing a library to be used by other programs, I always include as the first message something like AAAXX where AAA is the name of my library (three letters) and XX the version. === Subject: Re: hp48g+, hp48gx posting-account=5s9nxwoAAAC8C28eyNEfwETuWiXcQwnx Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I JUST PURCHASED A NEW COMPUTER WITH VISTA OPERATING SYSTEM AND MY > KIT ALWAYS WORKED IN MY OLD COMPUTER WHICH HAS WINDOWS 2000. Just go back to W2K. Who needs Vista? I bought a laptop with XP and an upgrade to Vista and installed W2KSP4 instead. Everything works, inclusing WiFi. === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G > can anyone comment on the treebrowser program for the 50G? is it worth > it? Just taking a quick look, the $40/$50 price tag seems a little high, although not necessarily completely unreasonable. The showstopper for me is that it's locked to one calculator: One have one 50g at work and one at home, and no way would I purchase two copies when it's physically impossible for me to be using both at the same time. I'm don't mind software that's registered to ME, but I won't support software that's locked down to one machine. === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G On 2008-04-09 03:19:54 +1000, Joel Koltner said: > Just taking a quick look, the $40/$50 price tag seems a little high, although > not necessarily completely unreasonable. The showstopper for me is that it's > locked to one calculator: One have one 50g at work and one at home, and no way > would I purchase two copies when it's physically impossible for me to be using > both at the same time. > Definitely is on the very expensive side. That's over 40% of the price of a new calculator ... -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G <%ONKj.63525$ea6.7553@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com> <47fc6c89$0$7963$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) since there is some discussion about the software I developed it seems to me that I need to clarify some things: > And what happened when the calculator isn't under warranty anymore ? Now first, for sure I am not responsible for the poor build quality (including but not limited to the poor manuals) HP offers to its customers. Who«s fault is it that their current calculators do not last as long as a HP 41, a HP 48SX or a HP 48GX ? Could it be the reason that HP is trying to make as much money of its customer as possible and rather does not care so much about their quality anymore ? What happened to the HP way ? Well, these are the numbers that were published in Germany (the exchange rate is based at the end of November): For the fiscal year 2007 (01.11.2006-31.10.2007) their turnover volume grow by 14% from 62 billion Euros to roughly 70 billion Euros (104,3 billion US-Dollars) making a net profit of roughly 5 billion Euros (7,3 billion US-Dollar) while laying-off 15.000 employees in the last 24 months. 2006 they made a net profit of roughly 4 billion Euros (6,2 billion US-Dollars). For the first quarter of 2008 they published (20.02.2008) a profit growth of 38% from 1,5 billion dollars to 2,1 billion dollars. Secondly, the software comes with a S/N. So there should be no problem in exchanging it if the calculator isn't under warranty anymore. Maybe I should extend my website to a registration form but as you can cleary see I am not a webdesigner ;-) Also updates for the software are provided through this site. > Definitely is on the very expensive side. > That's over 40% of the price of a new calculator ... That is an interesting argument. The list price for a SAP R/3 GUI is usually 12-15 times the price of the hardware it runs on, in a complete roll out the hardware cost gets into the negligible range of the total cost. Maybe I should use this as an argument the next time we are buying a (software) database ... By the way, what did the Meta Kernel cost when it came out ? The TreeBrowser offers unique features for ease of use of the calculator and for creating personalized collection of formulas which are not found on any other comparable machine (TI, Casio, Sharo, etc.). And, of course, you can always drop me a mail if you have questions. Any suggestions are welcome. Andreas === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G Hi On 2008-04-09 20:38:50 +1000, Andreas M.9aller > The list price for a SAP R/3 GUI is > usually 12-15 times the price of the hardware it runs on Do you really want to compare SAP with Treebrowser? Entire businesses rely on SAP. That is an interesting argument. The list price for a SAP R/3 GUI is > usually 12-15 times the price of the hardware it runs on, in a > complete roll out the hardware cost gets into the negligible range of > the total cost. Maybe I should use this as an argument the next time > we are buying a (software) database ... > By the way, what did the Meta Kernel cost when it came out ? Interesting point. It was US $50... Now I doubt you want to compare your treebrowser with the Metakernel either. The Metakernel was 128kB in size, was developed by 5 people over 5 years and did quite a lot more than what treebrowser did . In fact your software right now is using some component of our metakernel A more relevant comparison would be with my String Writer. It was shareware, sold for US$10 (you didn't have to pay).Over 2000 people registered for this software and most people gave more than $10 (I even had people giving me US $100, and back then $100 was worth much more than it is today!). And at the time it had features no other software had and without it the command line of the HP48 was pretty much unusable. The TreeBrowser offers unique features for ease of use of the > calculator and for creating personalized collection of formulas which > are not found on any other comparable machine (TI, Casio, Sharo, > etc.). I wish you good luck in your venture... But I will not stop saying that you will have little success if the list price is in the US $50-mark. You can do list of formulas using the built-in features so for getting an extra ease of use, $50 is pushing. Jean-Yves === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G <%ONKj.63525$ea6.7553@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com> <47fc6c89$0$7963$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <47fe042c$0$13089$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Entire businesses rely on SAP. Yes, I know. I work with it. Comparing the software was not the point that I was making. The point is that there is not necessarily a correlation between the price of a piece of hardware and the price of a piece of software. And for that I gave an example. > I wish you good luck in your venture... > But I will not stop saying that you will have little success if the > list price is in the US $50-mark. > You can do list of formulas using the built-in features so for getting > an extra ease of use, $50 is pushing. For sure I am not pushing anybody. Yes, you can do lists with the built-in features. But you can not present them the way it is done with TreeBrowser. And discussing about an extra ease of use would be very interesting but is IMHO a completly different story. And, of course, every price depends on the law of supply and demand. So, I value your opinion and your comparison but I do not share it. Let«s see what the future will bring and the future is hopefully always bright. Andreas === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G And, of course, every price depends on the law of supply and demand. Let me be the first to suggest that by dropping your price there's a good chance you'll actually make more money, Andreas. I'm sure you've seen the standard bell curve where, if you charge $0 you make no money, if you charge $1k you make no money because no one buys, and somewhere inbetween there's a peak... I think at $50 you're to the right of that peak. As I mentioned, I wouldn't personally drop $50 on TreeBrowser when I have to machines to support -- so you're making $0 -- but I would at least consider paying $25 twice. $20 twice would be even better... ---Joel === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G <%ONKj.63525$ea6.7553@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com> <47fc6c89$0$7963$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello Joel, your suggestions are most welcome. Yes, of course I know the standard normal distribution curve. And there are several other curves dicussing prices. Back in university we had a whole bunch of them. But you also have to consider the following facts for the price: For distribution a medium -the SD card- is needed (which you can use with the calculator after the installation) for delivering the software. Now I have to buy this in Germany and pay it in Euros. Of course in the U.S. this has to be sold in Dollars which is constantly dropping compared to the Euro. There is still my normal business day where I earn my money with and which takes most of my time. So I do not have the time to do the sales all by myself. And of course the dealer has to earn something with it, too. It comes with printed manuals as a booklet (42 pages) and installation instructions, taking away the hassle for a newbie of installing the libs as this is done through an installation routine (Just consider the always upcoming question about installing libraries in this forum. And if you even go to the support forum of HP look at the questions that are asked there.) Also I am delivering free updates and will continue developing the program because programming in sys-rpl and Saturn-ASM is challenging and fun and because there is a lot of heart and soul and passion in it from my side. Just replace the updated file on the SD card, delete the libs on the calc and rerun the installation program from the card and the update is done (By the way, when was the last time HP offered a new ROM ?). And, last but not least, support has to be given for already sold versions. To be fair there are two prices to compare at this moment: $39.95 for those that already have a calculator. $34.95 if bought together with a new calc. Now subtract from the $34.95 the price of the card in Euros, subtract the price of the booklet, subtract something the dealer must earn and you will find out yourself that my main concern is *not* making money with it. Fine you might say, I already have two calculators and do not need the two SD cards. Then drop me a mail so that we can discuss this privately and what can be done about it or how you can obtain a demo version for a test. And after that I am sure that I can quote you as a testimonial. Concerning your suggestions about the license please consider the fact that I am also limited to hardware restrictions. If you know of a better way, please share it with me. And as you stated correctly I am not Micro$oft and so far maximizing my profits has not been my main ambition. So far it was fun in programming ;-) The likelihood of big trusts dropping entire product lines (for what reason ever) can easily be seen by looking at the past. DEC and Compaq just jumps into my mind while thinking about HP, but this will get us off topic. On the other hands there are small and medium businesses that still exist while trusts have come and gone... Again, this is getting off topic. And remember the talks and rumors about HP dropping their entire calculator business a couple of years ago. Andreas P.S. Please remember that this E-mail address is not valid. Remove the === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G Hi On 2008-04-11 06:16:08 +1000, Andreas M.9aller > It comes with printed manuals as a booklet (42 pages) and installation > instructions, taking away the hassle for a newbie of installing the > libs as this is done through an installation routine (Just consider > the always upcoming question about installing libraries in this forum. > And if you even go to the support forum of HP look at the questions > that are asked there.) In these days and age, no one really expect you to provide a printed manual. In fact it's rather the opposite. The impact on the environment being too great. Also I am delivering free updates and will continue developing the > program because programming in sys-rpl and Saturn-ASM is challenging > and fun and because there is a lot of heart and soul and passion in it > from my side. Just replace the updated file on the SD card, delete the > libs on the calc and rerun the installation program from the card and > the update is done (By the way, when was the last time HP offered a > new ROM ?). Talking from experience. At first I sold my String Writer for $10, and would send a floppy disk with a collection of program. String Writer was personalised with the name of the person. I may have sold a dozen in 1 year. Then I made it shareware and gave it without any restrictions whatsoever to people, relying on their goodwill / honnesty to pay. Sales exploded. Personally, I wouldn't buy a calculator software for $50. What drives your cost up actually limits people: -protected software -restricted use on which machine you can use your calculator -must sell on a SD card to support that protection. You have two machines? you must pay two licenses ... crazy. Not many software company even have those restrictions these days. Even Microsoft Office can be installed on more than one machine provided you only use one at a time. The first mistake you made is that you are obviously assuming people are dishonnest and as such will not pay your license if they use it, instead will illegally copy it. Some of the most successful games of all time: Wolfenstein 3D, Doom .. Were free to use, shareware. They made millions. Ebay also has proven that the majority of people are honnest. If your software is worth it and makes a difference to people, people will pay for it. And, last but not least, support has to be given for already sold > versions. To be fair there are two prices to compare at this moment: > $39.95 for those that already have a calculator. > $34.95 if bought together with a new calc. Now subtract from the $34.95 the price of the card in Euros, subtract > the price of the booklet, subtract something the dealer must earn and > you will find out yourself that my main concern is *not* making money > with it. booklet -> not necessary the card is only required to support your protection > Concerning your suggestions about the license please consider the fact > that I am also limited to hardware restrictions. If you know of a > better way, please share it with me. The whole idea of protecting your software sounds crazy to me. It takes time, people will crack it just for the fun of it. At the end, you will spend more time worrying about your protection than improving the software. Personally these days, I do not buy software that forces me to pay for it, or limit me on how I want to use it. And I've paid for all software I use on a daily basis. > And as you stated correctly I am not Micro$oft and so far maximizing > my profits has not been my main ambition. So far it was fun in > programming ;-) keep it that way instead of worring about useless copy protection -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G <%ONKj.63525$ea6.7553@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com> <47fc6c89$0$7963$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <47ff0f97$0$20296$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > In these days and age, no one really expect you to provide a printed > manual. In fact it's rather the opposite. The impact on the environment > being too great. Now I am not going to argue about that. There is no better excuse than to plead for protection on environment, right now this is the argument for almost everything regardless of the truth behind it. But it is great for marketing and for salving one's conscience. You are surely smart enough to understand this. And surely we do not want to talk about the quality of the manuals and the tiny print out that comes with the HP 50G. to learn from other experiences is always of great value. > Some of the most successful games of all time: Wolfenstein 3D, Doom .. > Were free to use, shareware. They made millions. Oh come on, don«t you think I know that ? > Ebay also has proven that the majority of people are honest. Well, with all the fraud happening at ebay that might not be the best example. I do not assume that people are dishonest and I enjoyed having the advantage to read Immanuel Kant in his original language. > the card is only required to support your protection That is something we can not discuss in public but there is a lot more behind it than just supporting my protection. > It takes time, people will crack it just for the fun of it. I know that, but you are missing the point. If you are interested we can discuss this privately. > keep it that way instead of worrying about useless copy protection So far it has been an interesting adventure and I hope it will continue. Having intelligent conversation and accepting the challenge always sharpens the brain and leads to additional knowledge. Andreas === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G Well, with all the fraud happening at ebay that might not be the best example. Do you have some statistics for this? My instincts are that fraud on eBay probably looks a lot worse than it really is due to the huge volume of sales they're making. I.e., as a percentage of sales fraud is proably quite small. (It's kind of like the War in Iraq costs the U.S. $5,000 per second! -- Yeah, that is huge -- and difficult to defend as a good value, even for people who believe in the cause --, but spread over nearly 300 million people suddenly it doesn't look that daunting anymore.) ---Joel === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G <%ONKj.63525$ea6.7553@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com> <47fc6c89$0$7963$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Do you have some statistics for this? My instincts are that fraud on eBay > probably looks a lot worse than it really is due to the huge volume of sales > they're making. I.e., as a percentage of sales fraud is proably quite small. > (It's kind of like the War in Iraq costs the U.S. $5,000 per second! -- > Yeah, that is huge -- and difficult to defend as a good value, even for > people who believe in the cause --, but spread over nearly 300 million people > suddenly it doesn't look that daunting anymore.) Hello Joel, let me put it that way: Ebay Germany published a printed magazin about frauds on Ebay Germany. But I«d rather like to come back to the topic and discuss about HP calculators. Ebay is surely worth a discussion but probably not in this newsgroup ;-) Andreas P.S. If I understood you right I have to replace Dash with a -, so you got mail. === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G Hi Andreas, let me put it that way: Ebay Germany published a printed magazin about frauds on Ebay Germany. Interesting. :-) You're correct that this isn't really the right group for such a discussion. ---Joel === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G > But you also have to consider the following facts for the price: > For distribution a medium -the SD card- is needed Why is this? Plenty of companies just have you download the (on-the-fly customized/licensed to you personally) version of the software immediately after payment. I'd really rather not buy Yet Another SD Card anyway -- I have plenty. > There is still my normal business day where I earn my money with and > which takes most of my time. So I do not have the time to do the sales > all by myself. And of course the dealer has to earn something with it, > too. Do you really need a dealer for something like this? What value add do they provide you? > (Just consider > the always upcoming question about installing libraries in this forum. > And if you even go to the support forum of HP look at the questions > that are asked there.) If you've already gone to the significant effort to write up 42 pages of documentation, I suspect you could do a much better job detailing library installation than HP did. :-) > (By the way, when was the last time HP offered a > new ROM ?). A long time ago, but their updates were free as well. Personally I'm more interested in getting a bug-fixed 35s than squashing the last few bugs in the 50g anyway, since it's powerful enough that AFAIK there aren't any particularly severe ones that are left or at least can't be readily worked around. > And, last but not least, support has to be given for already sold > versions. Yes. > Now subtract from the $34.95 the price of the card in Euros, subtract > the price of the booklet, subtract something the dealer must earn and > you will find out yourself that my main concern is *not* making money > with it. With an SD card, I agree that $35 isn't bad. But why not offer the non-SD card version for those who want it? You'll probably even make more money that way since, as I mentioned, I'd gladly pay $20 and perhaps even $25 for it. To avoid the problems of begineers not knowing how to install libraries, you can and strongly caution/urge people to be sure they can successfully download and use the test library, mentioning that you don't have the resources to support people who just can't get it to work... and steering them back to the SD card option. > And remember the talks and rumors about HP dropping their entire > calculator business a couple of years ago. Despite all the bravado at HHC last year, it doesn't appear that HP is really all that committed to calculators. I do think JYA and that-calculator-group-manager-guy are talented, dedicated and hard-working, they just don't have a whole lot of corporate support behind them. Certainly, thank you for a most reasonable reply. ---Joel === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G <%ONKj.63525$ea6.7553@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com> <47fc6c89$0$7963$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Despite all the bravado at HHC last year, it doesn't appear that HP is really > all that committed to calculators. I do think JYA and > that-calculator-group-manager-guy are talented, dedicated and hard-working, > they just don't have a whole lot of corporate support behind them. That for sure would explain a lot. Now I can not discuss everything about this in public. So I have sent you a mail to this address you are using here. Please let me know if this a valid address from you and that my mail has reached you. Andreas === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G <%ONKj.63525$ea6.7553@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com> <47fc6c89$0$7963$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=82unwgoAAABKn0foN-teZr4DLYjqF_TL Gecko/2008032620 Firefox/3.0b5,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Apr 10, 8:09Êpm, Joel Koltner Despite all the bravado at HHC last year, it doesn't appear that HP is really > all that committed to calculators. ÊI do think JYA and > that-calculator-group-manager-guy are talented, dedicated and hard-working, > they just don't have a whole lot of corporate support behind them. I'm sure JYA has the full support of Hydrix behind him, but I'm also fairly sure that Hydrix would not continue to develop the HP calculator line, in whole or part without being contracted by HP to do so. While I am unclear exactly how much of the work on the HP50g as well as the later edditions of the 49g+ was done by Hydrix under contract, I believe the Qonos project proved that they would be capable of continuing the HP tradition in a calculator series (although that project obviously deviated somewhat from the tradition itself), but Hydrix (like many other consultancy companies) lack the resources to actually develop, launch, and market a product line on their own. Thus the best hope for a continuation is to convince HP to wake-up and fully commit to their calculator line. Barring that, the next best hope is for another established company to contract hydrix and friends (other former HP calc-department employees) for the production of more calulators in the tradition of the existing ones, possibly even buying out the HP calculator division allowing the resulting calculators to be true HP series calculators in relality rather than just tradition. But who? TI honestly views calculators are primarily educational tools, not generally used by professionals. Casio would just make a mess of things. Sharp probably would too. Honestly, only one company comes to mind as being able to pull it off, but IBM really intends to be primarally a consultancy company itself, and has little interest in expending its limited line of products sold to consumers (rather than to businesses). Perhaps somebody else knows of annoither company that might have the ability to pull it off, and would be willing to consider entering this market segment? === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G <%ONKj.63525$ea6.7553@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com> <47fc6c89$0$7963$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello Joel, as my mail bounced back I assume that this is not you valid mail address. If you«re interested in continuing discussing parts of your arguments privately drop me a line. Andreas === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G Hi Andreas, as my mail bounced back I assume that this is not you valid mail address. You have to replace the DASH with, um, a dash -- - If you«re interested in continuing discussing parts of your arguments privately drop me a line. ---Joel. === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G Hi On 2008-04-11 16:15:34 +1000, username localhost said: > Thus the best hope for a continuation is to convince HP to wake-up and > fully commit to their calculator line. Barring that, the next best > hope is for another established company to contract hydrix and friends Is there much future in the future of calculator hardware really? Look at the eee PC , or the latest ultra-light laptop from HP. They don't sale for much more than a HP50g. If the future of calculator still exists, it will be on those kind of machine, as software. TI has taken the smart approach. They have designed their latest calculator as a device that fills a gap, and the software is available for either that machine (Nspire) or PC or Mac. NSpire isn't just a calculator, it's a range of software running on various platform. And so far, what they've done is great (but I'm a bit biased on their latest software obviously) Jean-Yves -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G <%ONKj.63525$ea6.7553@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com> <47fc6c89$0$7963$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <47ff111b$0$2002$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=82unwgoAAABKn0foN-teZr4DLYjqF_TL Gecko/2008032620 Firefox/3.0b5,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Hi On 2008-04-11 16:15:34 +1000, username localhost > said: Thus the best hope for a continuation is to convince HP to wake-up and > fully commit to their calculator line. Barring that, the next best > hope is for another established company to contract hydrix and friends Is there much future in the future of calculator hardware really? The other answers about battery power and input methods are good reasons to assume the market will continue. I know it is generally far,far faster for me to enter an equation in either a TI-89 or HP50g than any of the main CASes currently out there. Also keep in mind the size difference. Some of the design goals you guys placed on EDGE development seem to indicate that you suspect low power, limited memory and performance embeded system calculators to exist for a while still to come. > If the future of calculator still exists, it will be on those kind of > machine, as software. > TI has taken the smart approach. They have designed their latest > calculator as a device that fills a gap, and the software is available > for either that machine (Nspire) or PC or Mac. NSpire isn't just a > calculator, it's a range of software running on various platform. And so far, what they've done is great (but I'm a bit biased on their > latest software obviously) > Well, that is to be expected. It feels odd though that you have worked on both HP and Ti-style calculators. I'm quite sure you are well aware of the philosophical differences in the two. That said, a solid base CAS design could fit either philosophy reasonably well, depending on the actual design. === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G > Is there much future in the future of calculator hardware really? I think there is. > Look at the eee PC , or the latest ultra-light laptop from HP. They don't > sale for much more than a HP50g. Yeah, but they also suck power like mad and don't have a decent keyboard for a calculator. Although I think you could get people to learn to plug in their calculators every day, I believe the average person would still want at least some tens of hours of battery life rather than the 2-4 that laptops get you. As for the keyboard, having a nicely labeled scientific calculator Bluetooth device might work. And I think it's been demonstrated nicely that there is a market for non-graphing but still powerful machines like the 35s as well. ---Joel === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G > Look at the eee PC, or the latest ultra-light laptop from HP. > They don't sell for much more than a HP50g. At Amazon.com, in USA: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000Y33CVM eee $400 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000YEMKGY eee $400 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000YG646Y eee $400 http://astore.amazon.com/asus-eee-pc-20/ eee $300-$520 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GTPRPS HP50G $120 Showing that a 50G is way overpriced :) $$$ === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G > Now, how many copies of a 50g did you purchase if you have one at > home and one at work ? Two. What's your point? The guy is certainly free to license his software however he wishes, and I'm free not to buy it based on his licensing as well. There's a much better argument for selling hardware on a per-unit basis since obviously replicating hardware is far from free whereas replicating software is effectively free. Even Microsoft Office lets you have 2 or 3 installations legally these days, recognizing that most people have a work machine and a home machine. If the guy goes out of business or loses interest in calculators and therefore can't provide new activations, the end user is screwed if he has to replace his calculator. While it's true that plenty of companies -- including Microsoft -- are subject to the same problem, the likelihood of Microsoft going away is pretty miniscule compared to the likelihood that this one-man shop does. ---Joel === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G <%ONKj.63525$ea6.7553@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com> posting-account=03JvPwoAAAB_QMftOBNTtxmTjeV6dZV0 Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > So when that calculator dies, so does the software? Such a deal, knowing > that thes calculators tend to be disposable. Scott Chapin Hello Scott, well, I bought my version in Germany, the documentation that came with it says: Keep the SD-card and its containing programs at a safe place if you want to reinstall the programs later. If you need to exchange your calculator while under guarantee, you have to exchange the card as well for being able to use the programs with the exchanged calculator. So if I need to exchange the calc I send it back with the SD-card to my dealer and get both exchanged. Also in the docs the website of the author (http:// www.software49g.gmxhome.de) and the email address is mentioned. The website is in English and in German, so why don«t you drop him a mail and ask how this is handled? Boris === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G On 2008-04-09 10:07:25 +1000, bbobble@gmx.de said: > So if I need to exchange the calc I send it back with the SD-card to > my dealer and get both exchanged. And what happened when the calculator isn't under warranty anymore ? -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Simple? SysRPL question posting-account=ky6NnQoAAAAl8HjjF10EUMKbzXiIKhTR Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I'm starting to get the hang of it. I have all the recommended documentation and am fumbling my way through it all. My question: Array and matrix operations, for example if I want to add two vectors [ 1 2 ] and [ 3 4 ] to get [ 4 6 ], I know I can use the UserRPL command x+, is there a SysRPL command to do the same? I thought ^VADD sounded like an alternative but since I crashed the program I am guessing not. Also what about xROW-, xROW+ and such, I see there's commands like ^INSERTROW[], but haven't had too much luck yet. Essentially, are there SysRPL commands that can perform the matrix/ array/vector operations I'm talking about faster than the UserRPL commands, and if so how do they work? Any help would be appreciated. Jacob === Subject: Re: Simple? SysRPL question posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2008032620 Firefox/3.0b5,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Essentially, are there SysRPL commands that can perform the matrix/ > array/vector operations I'm talking about faster than the UserRPL > commands, and if so how do they work? ÊAny help would be appreciated. You aren't going to see much timing difference between sysRPL operations and userRPL operations with a whole lot of simple stuff. The reason is simple: userRPL commands generally are a check for arguments which then launch the equivalent sysRPL command or ROM routine. One check for arguments doesn't take much time. When you are checking EVERY command though, it really starts to add up. If I remember correctly, there is not a named command to add or subtract vectors/matrices. However, there is a stable entry point that can be used. I'd recommend using Emacs and Nosy to take a look at some user RPL commands on the calculator. That is probably the easiest/best way to find the information you are looking for and it will be very enlightening. It is lots of fun to browse around in the ROM and see what you discover. TW === Subject: Equation play: who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? For the facile articulation and manipulation of mathamatical expressions, who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? === Subject: Re: Equation play: who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? posting-account=82unwgoAAABKn0foN-teZr4DLYjqF_TL Gecko/2008032620 Firefox/3.0b5,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Apr 11, 1:55Êpm, Publicly Anonomous Use > For the facile articulation and manipulation of mathamatical expressions, who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? Well now, that is invoking a bit of a holy war, but the honest answer is that they both have strengths and weaknesses whose importance greatly varies with with the user, as well as with the user's experience with each. (I'm not very familiar with Nspire, but I'm reasonably confident that many of the overall differences in philosophy between the Ti-89 and the HP50g also apply to the Nspire). For example, the TI's auto-simplification is a nice feature, and often produces the desired result or very close to it. But if it fails to do so, there is relatively little you can do to convince it to transform the expression to the form you wanted. The HP50g simplifies very little by default, but has a wide array of commands to manipulate the result into your desired form. With expereince it is easy to get the form you want, but in the begining it is rather difficult. As for general entry of symbolic equations (or even numeric ones large enough that entering them step by step is error prone) the best testament to the HP50g's equation editor's design is the fact that it was ported to the TI-89 twice, once as a free app Hail, and once as EQW (originally available as a crippled free version, and a for-pay flash app version). I'm not sure if Nspire has a version of the equation editor built-in, but it would not surprise me. Assuming the Nspire support for units is the same as the TI-89's then it is by default slightly nicer than HP50g's unit support. Etc. The real bottom line is that the Ti-offerings are somewhat more user- friendly, and have a much shallower leaning curve, but the HP50g in general is far more powerful and customizable than TI's offerings. Of course there are almost certainly a few small exceptions, but that's life. Some other notes. Virtually all the functions in the the NSpire will work more-or-less as expected with symbolic arguments. For a variety of reasons, a fair number of HP50g commands do not have support for symbolic arguments, but in many cases there is a version of the function present that does have support. === Subject: Re: Equation play: who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? For the facile articulation and manipulation of mathamatical expressions, who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? I don't think I like this in the bid description: Quickly and easily select the proper syntax, symbols and variables from a template... -Sounds like a Casio convolution. Tag:Who can afford experience? === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G Joel Koltner schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Well, with all the fraud happening at ebay that might not be the best > example. Do you have some statistics for this? My instincts are that fraud on eBay > probably looks a lot worse than it really is due to the huge volume of > sales they're making. I.e., as a percentage of sales fraud is proably > quite small. (It's kind of like the War in Iraq costs the U.S. $5,000 per > second! -- Yeah, that is huge -- and difficult to defend as a good > value, even for people who believe in the cause --, but spread over > nearly 300 million people suddenly it doesn't look that daunting anymore.) > Yep, it's OT, but.... In december 2007 there was a BIIIGG fraud case on eBay Germany, a seller (pc-hardware1) stole about a million Euros (not dollars) , presumably more, from eBay members within the first few days in december, until eBay disabled his account on the 5. or 6. of december. Hopefully back OT: Hi Andreas, maybe you could make a test-drive version of the TB (and TBB), so that people can actually get a 'feel' for the new and amazing features of TB. To all who haven't seen the TreeBrowser in action so far: I have seen it on the HPCC anniversary conference in 2007, where Andreas presented TreeBrowser and TreeBrowserBuilder, and I have to say it's an excellent piece of software, which eases the way to handle organized data structures in a way you never saw on the 49g+ or 50g! I didn't explicitely write 'equations' in the above paragraph, since you could use TreeBrowser for a wide variety of organized data. Raymond === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G <%ONKj.63525$ea6.7553@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com> <47fc6c89$0$7963$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello Raymond, creating a real test-drive version for a physical calculator won«t be that easy. Instead I would rather spent that time for improving the software. There is a reason for protection and is not because I am crazy or because I think that I am a better programmer than hackers out there. But, you can take the software from my website and run it in EMU48 for testing it. It can be safely assumed IMHO that every serious HP calculator user is familiar with it. EMU48 is for sure a great piece of work. Please be aware that the latest files are always in the 'Updates' area. They do behave exactly like their physical counterparts on a real calculator and have no restrictions. And of course data sets created in the emulator work on a real calculator and also vice versa. > I didn't explicitely write 'equations' in the above paragraph, > since you could use TreeBrowser for a wide variety > of organized data. Yes, this is possible. Not for the average user at the moment, but I am working on that. Andreas === Subject: For Sale: HP-50G and Science & Engineering Mathematics with the HP49G- Volume1 posting-account=ujnlqwkAAADa5-KcfiulE2o9CRcf_ASq Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) The calculator was bought new from Amazon, and has been used for less than 3 hours. The books is brand new also-I've only flipped thru the pages once. No marks, no highlights. There is nothing wrong with the calculator- I'd rather just use my 15- C $100 for both -Plus shipping (buy pays shipping/insurance) I will only ship to address in the USA. ( I will ship from zip code 94538) Email off-list if interested. === Subject: Calculation Request...??? posting-account=HFaIbwkAAADIyWSU_QyRq04hgVf36Ebt rv:1.8.1.13) Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) version for my HP48... And it seems to me that i win too easily. ( usually 8 ± guesses ) How many guesses should a perfectly logical approach require for 6 holes with 13 colours? ( Reminder ) The Game will tell you how many colors are right or how many colors are in the correct positions, But Not Which specific holes/colors are correct. Thanx! === Subject: Re: Equation play: who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Apr 11, 1:55Êpm, Publicly Anonomous Use > For the facile articulation and manipulation of mathamatical expressions, who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? Depends. The TI line is excellent for the average high school student who just wants his calculator to spit out the answer in a form similar to the back of the book. TI was aiming for the educational market, so this makes sense. The HP is much better for outside-the-box thinking where the user must come up with her own equations to use as opposed to simply copying them out of a textbook. This is valuable for real-world problem solving as well as mathematics competitions. The HP's RPN mode gives it a huge advantage when it comes to performing a series of operations on a number. There is no issue with intermediate rounding and it also saves keystrokes (and therefore time). So basically, if you're a student (high school, college,...), the TI will probably suit you better, unless you're the type of student who is willing to invest extra time to tinker with things. If you're out of school and need a calculator for math, the HP might be better as it is more flexible. If you're out of school and need to do serious math, you shouldn't be using a calculator anyway and probably already have some math program installed on your computer. S.C. === Subject: Re: Equation play: who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Apr 11, 2:28Êpm, username localhost I'm not sure if Nspire has a version of the equation editor built-in, > but it would not surprise me. Assuming the Nspire support for units is > the same as the TI-89's then it is by default slightly nicer than > HP50g's unit support. Etc. > I have both the TI-89 Titanium and the HP 50g and think the 50g has much better unit support than the 89-Ti does *if you know how to use the HP*. The ideal method of unit manipulation is not discussed in the user manual -- instead, a slower, more cumbersome method is demonstrated. On the 50g with soft menus (-117 SF), units are very easy to use. [r->] [UNITS] (the 6 key) brings up a soft menu of types of units (e.g. length, area, volume, time, speed...). Each of these contains the units of that category. Pressing the corresponding soft key multiplies whatever is in stack level 1 by that unit. Right-shifting that soft key will attempt to convert whatever is in stack level 1 to that unit, if the units agree (i.e. you can't convert 5 feet to hours). Finally, left-shifting the soft key will divide by that unit. This is much easier than the CONVERT command. On the TI-89, you must first type in the value, then the unit, then the arrow convert operator, and then finally the unit to be converted to. The HP simplifies this greatly by making unit conversion a two-keystroke process and is very efficient for chain-calculations. S.C. === Subject: Re: Equation play: who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? posting-account=v6m75AoAAAAgp3vyiLFAfyqmfMcXEPkm 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; WinuE v6; WinuE v6),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) May I correct you? Left-shifting that soft key will attempt to convert whatever is in stack level 1 to that unit, if the units agree... Right-shifting the soft key will divide by that unit. > On the 50g with soft menus (-117 SF), units are very easy to use. [r->] > [UNITS] (the 6 key) brings up a soft menu of types of units (e.g. > length, area, volume, time, speed...). Each of these contains the > units of that category. Pressing the corresponding soft key multiplies > whatever is in stack level 1 by that unit. Right-shifting that soft > key will attempt to convert whatever is in stack level 1 to that unit, > if the units agree (i.e. you can't convert 5 feet to hours). Finally, > left-shifting the soft key will divide by that unit. This is much > easier than the CONVERT command. === Subject: Re: Simple? SysRPL question posting-account=ky6NnQoAAAAl8HjjF10EUMKbzXiIKhTR Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Essentially, are there SysRPL commands that can perform the matrix/ > array/vector operations I'm talking about faster than the UserRPL > commands, and if so how do they work? Any help would be appreciated. You aren't going to see much timing difference between sysRPL > operations and userRPL operations with a whole lot of simple stuff. > The reason is simple: userRPL commands generally are a check for > arguments which then launch the equivalent sysRPL command or ROM > routine. One check for arguments doesn't take much time. When you > are checking EVERY command though, it really starts to add up. If I remember correctly, there is not a named command to add or > subtract vectors/matrices. However, there is a stable entry point > that can be used. I'd recommend using Emacs and Nosy to take a look at some user RPL > commands on the calculator. That is probably the easiest/best way to > find the information you are looking for and it will be very > enlightening. It is lots of fun to browse around in the ROM and see > what you discover. TW Nosy I guess because I couldn't make much use of it until now. Yes very interesting indeed. === Subject: Re: Calculation Request...??? > version for my HP48... > And it seems to me that i win too easily. ( usually 8 ± guesses ) How many guesses should a perfectly logical approach require for 6 > holes with 13 colours? Did you mean 6 colors and 13 rows of holes? My children's Mastermind rows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastermind %28board game%29 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Mastermind.html states: Knuth (1976-77) showed that the codebreaker can always succeed in five or fewer moves (i.e., knows the code after four guesses). -wes === Subject: Re: Calculation Request...??? posting-account=HFaIbwkAAADIyWSU_QyRq04hgVf36Ebt rv:1.8.1.13) Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > On Apr 12, 2:59 am, TranslucentAmoebae version for my HP48... > And it seems to me that i win too easily. ( usually 8 ± guesses ) How many guesses should a perfectly logical approach require for 6 > holes with 13 colours? Did you mean 6 colors and 13 rows of holes? My children's Mastermind > rows.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastermind %28board game%29 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Mastermind.htmlstates: > Knuth (1976-77) showed that the codebreaker can always succeed in > five or fewer moves (i.e., knows the code after four guesses). -wes This Version that i have: SMasterMind v.1.2.4 ©2006 Th. Robisson and Ph. Galmel that i got from a MacWorld CD Has what may be an anomalous arrangement of 6 holes and 12 colors, Plus Holes themselves may be part of the solution, effectively making for 13 colors. My approach has been to try sets of colors first to determine which colors are used; AABBCC DDEEFF ... Until i get 6 Hits. Then Try rearranging them, working from a base of consistency as i go... It seems to me that of the zillions of combinations, 8 guesses is far too few to find the solution. Am i a Jedi...??? === Subject: Interative Solutions to Engineering/ETC. Problems Many years ago when I was trying to be a double major Physics/Engineering, I came across a class of problems that had to be solved iteratively. I remember having to do this type of problem in my Thermodynamics, Heat and Mass Transfer,and Advanced Fluids classes. I did some in of my upper level Physics classes too. A few days ago one of our Junior Physics Majors came to me to ask me if any General Type of Program to do this type of iteration is available for an HP calculator.( She has an HP48GX and a HP50G) It has been such a long time since I have done any of this myself; I did not want to steer her in the wrong direction. I do not come across this type of problem very often teaching 100 and 200 level Physics and Astronomy labs. Harold A. Climer Dept. Of Physics, Geology, and Astronomy University of Tennessee at Chattanooga 309 Grote Hall 423-425-4546 Harold-Climer@utc.edu === Subject: Re: Interative Solutions to Engineering/ETC. Problems posting-account=2G4L-woAAABoWmw_YYmxjw-bOIfoIAqk Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Many years ago when I was trying to be a double major > Physics/Engineering, I came across a class of problems that had to be > solved iteratively. > I remember having to do this type of problem in my Thermodynamics, > Heat and Mass Transfer,and Advanced Fluids classes. > I did some in of my upper level Physics classes too. > A few days ago one of our Junior Physics Majors came to me to ask me > if any General Type of Program to do this type of iteration is > available for an HP calculator.( She has an HP48GX and a HP50G) > It has been such a long time since I have done any of this myself; I > did not want to steer her in the wrong direction. > I do not come across this type of problem very often teaching 100 and > 200 level Physics and Astronomy labs. > Harold A. Climer > Dept. Of Physics, Geology, and Astronomy > University of Tennessee at Chattanooga > 309 Grote Hall > 423-425-4546 > Harold-Cli...@utc.edu I believe there are a couple of programs in hpcalc.org that deals with thermo iterations and heat transfer. But you have to be more specific about what type of problems? === Subject: Re: Interative Solutions to Engineering/ETC. Problems posting-account=itRlSAoAAADIJvOzSGM8mjsK7gvlk1wg Gecko/20071127 Firefox/2.0.0.11,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) problems, which are under discussion. Just to give a simple example: the equation x = alpha * sin(x) (where alpha is a constant) has at least one solution x=0. Depending on the value of alpha, it can have n solutions, where n is any uneven number >= 1. If you know, in which intervall you want to find a solution, you can calculate the solution value easily with a little iteration program or other numerical methods. I think there are at least 3 different methods. On the other hand it is really difficult to write a general program to find all solutions automaticly, even for this very simple specific problem. === Subject: Re: Iterative Solutions to Engineering/ETC. Problems [ROOTS] > If you know in which interval you want to find a [numeric] > solution, you can calculate the solution value easily > with a little iteration program or other numerical methods [ROOT ?] > I think there are at least 3 different methods. On the other hand it is really difficult to write a general > program to find all solutions automatically, > even for this very simple specific problem. All roots is in general impossible for a numeric solver (e.g. 'SIN(1/X)=0.5' has an infinite number of solutions near X=0), but it is easy to automate simple searching, within a user-defined interval and specified coarseness (size of fixed sub-intervals), e.g.: ROOTS (UserRPL for any HP48G/49G/50G) http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=allroots === Subject: Re: Equation play: who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? posting-account=82unwgoAAABKn0foN-teZr4DLYjqF_TL Gecko/2008032620 Firefox/3.0b5,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > On Apr 11, 2:28Êpm, username localhost I'm not sure if Nspire has a version of the equation editor built-in, > but it would not surprise me. Assuming the Nspire support for units is > the same as the TI-89's then it is by default slightly nicer than > HP50g's unit support. Etc. I have both the TI-89 Titanium and the HP 50g and think the 50g has > much better unit support than the 89-Ti does *if you know how to use > the HP*. The ideal method of unit manipulation is not discussed in the > user manual -- instead, a slower, more cumbersome method is > demonstrated. > First notice that I said by default. Further, it is obvious that one is intended to use the softkeys rather than the choose menus. The features you mention are indeed mentioned in the manual too. However, The TI-89 comes with the ability (in fact the default behavior) of simplifying units. To do that on the HP50g requires external software. The HP50g appears to lack support for units in matrices. Then there are two small things i slighty prefer on the TI-89. One is that m is valid, and 1 m is not required. Annother is that custom defined units are stored with a leading underscore in their name, making it extremely clear when browsing what they are. Finally, I do like the fact that constants in the ti-89 use the same system as units. This makes sense. After all, is 'c' really a contant, or is it also a unit. when one says 0.95c they are effectively using it as a unit, not as a constant. How about 5g's? Same thing. I find that terribly convient. While this could obviously be replicated with custom units, that again is not a default feature. === Subject: Re: Equation play: who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Apr 12, 1:36Êpm, username localhost system as units. This makes sense. After all, Not sure what you mean here, but the 50g's CONLIB (constants library) expresses all the constants in terms of built-in units (e.g. g = 9.80665 m/s^2; h = 6.626E-34 J-s; etc). > is 'c' really a contant, or is it also a unit. when one says 0.95c > they are effectively using it as a unit, not as a constant. > How about 5g's? Same thing. I find that terribly convient. While this > could obviously be replicated with custom units, that again > is not a default feature. Sure, 1c = 299792458 m/s, so 0.95c = (0.95)(299792458 m/s) = 284802835 m/s, so c can be thought of as a constant that contains the m/s unit. S.C. === Subject: Re: Equation play: who triumphs? Nspire-CAS or HP 50G ? posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > May I correct you? Left-shifting that soft key will attempt to convert whatever is in > stack level 1 to that unit, > if the units agree... > Right-shifting the soft key will divide by that unit. > S.C. === Subject: Re: Solving equations with ln() posting-account=itRlSAoAAADIJvOzSGM8mjsK7gvlk1wg Gecko/20071127 Firefox/2.0.0.11,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I tried to do the equation with an = instead of > on my HP50G. First step enter the equation so that it appears in the first stack level. Then press the key e^x. Unfortunatelly only one side of the equation is transformed. To transform the other side use the menu CONVERT, REWRITE, EXP2POW. Now SOLVEVX works. You receive 2 solutions and you just have to try on which side of the solutions your inequation is true. === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G [statistical and political ignorance] > Do you have some statistics for this? My instincts are that fraud on eBay > probably looks a lot worse than it really is due to the huge volume of sales > they're making. I.e., as a percentage of sales fraud is proably quite small. > (It's kind of like the War in Iraq costs the U.S. $5,000 per second! -- > Yeah, that is huge -- and difficult to defend as a good value, even for > people who believe in the cause --, but spread over nearly 300 million people > suddenly it doesn't look that daunting anymore.) About that last sentence: The Three Trillion Dollar War: The True Cost of the Iraq Conflict http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393067017 sobering study by Nobel Prize [Economics, 2001] winner Joseph E. Stiglitz and Harvard professor [of Public Finance] Linda J. Bilmes Read and learn (even a full read of the Amazon web page is educational in itself) === Subject: Heusen Software from Germany posting-account=NLqtegoAAAAsJvC35IUN0k_P5DwfSaC_ 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; IEMB3; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; IEMB3),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Has anyone been able to use their software for the HP 50g and 49g+ and === Subject: EE*Pro? Brian Maguire? (Was: EE?Pro / EEPro / EE Pro: for HP 49) posting-account=zwF5mgoAAABtN7MLMYmZfSdAoZ2In_RC rv:1.8.1.14) Gecko/20080404 Firefox/2.0.0.14,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) >> Brian, >> I would like to know the status of your EE*Pro for the HP49 and if ready >> where I can purchase it. Sorry for such a long delay. EE*Pro was actually finished way back in >October. It took a bit longer to get the documentation finished. Still, >it >should have been released months ago. A bunch of things conspired to >cause >the delay. I won't go into the details, but it should be released >within the >month. BTW, The library supports the full 49G+ display. Hi Brian, How's the release going? We would really love to see this program. We would really hate to think that your release is and always was vaporware. Still we hold our collective breath. -Jonathan === Subject: RPN/RPL Calculator implementations, list of, regular post [long, FAQ] Supersedes: <13r66ru2gbc9qed@corp.supernews.com> Last-Modified: 2008-04-14 Posting-Frequency: bi-monthly URL: http://www.finseth.com/rpnrpl.html Copyright: 2002-8 by Craig A. Finseth Archive-name: computer/handhelds/rpn-rpl Disclaimer: Approval for *.answers is based on form, not content. RPN/RPL Implementations Document id RPN/RPL Implementations http://www.finseth.com/rpnrpl.html Last posted 2008-04-14 reposted about every 2 months Contact: Craig A. Finseth http://www.finseth.com. Please send updates directly to the author via email. Copyright This FAQ document is Copyright 2002-8 by Craig A. Finseth. It may be reproduced and archived as part of normal network distribution. Such distribution is assumed to include CD/ROM or other bulk, unedited distribution. It may be reproduced for individual or non-commerical use provided that it is reproduced intact. It may be reproduced for commercial use provided: o it is reproduced essentially intact including all copyright notices and acknowledgements, o the publisher obtains the latest version directly from the FAQ maintainer (using the above WWW site is acceptable), o the publisher provides the FAQ maintainer with information on what collection the copy of the FAQ is in, and how that collection may be obtained, o all material modifications (other than formatting) are clearly marked. Description This document provides a list of implementations of RPN, RPL, and HP calculators for other systems. You can help make it more comprehensive by sending me additional information and/or updates. To be included in this list, an implementation must: o implement at least a standard 4-level RPN calculator. Minor variations (e.g., 3 or 5 levels) do not preclude being listed. Implementations that include both RPN and algebraic modes are eligible. o implement an RPL calculator. o implement a clone (or near-clone) of any Hewlett-Packard calculator, even if it is an algebraic-only model. The following information is included for each implementation: Implementations are listed alphabetically by name. If the implementation emulates or approximates a specific calculator and it is not obvious from the name which calculator is emulated, the emulated calculator model is given in parentheses. The *LAST* *CHANGED/VERIFIED* line contains the date that the entry was last changed or an explict looks ok to me was received by the FAQ maintainer. The *ORIGINAL* *DISTRIBUTION* is the date (or partial date) of the first release. It is in YYYY-MM-DD format. The *VERSION* is the latest known version. It is probably out of date. The *ENVIRONMENT* is the operating environment. This is a very high-level description: consult the documentation on the product for any specifics. The *ORGANIZATION* is the name of and contact information for the implementor or current maintainer. The *STATUS* is one of o no longer available: Self-explanatory. o free: The implementation is available to most people at no charge. Even such free implementations may have restrictions: consult information about the particular implementation. Where available, information on how to obtain a copy is also listed. o shareware: Self-explanatory. o not free: The implementation is for sale. Contact the vendor for specifics. Many of the names of the implementations in this list are trademarked. Specific trademarks are not called out. The site http://www.hp41.org also has a list. Table of Contents Implementations Available for PCs: Linux, DOS, Windows, Macintosh, Unix Calc41 name: Calc41 last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: ? status: not free Note: was sold by EduCALC. Calculator.org name: Calculator.org / Calc 98 last changed/verified: 2008-03-06 version: 5.6 environment: Windows, web, handhelds organization/author: http://calculator.org status: free Emu28 name: Emu28 (includes 28C) version: 1.03 environment: Windows organization/author: Christoph Giesselink http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/emu28.htm status: free EMU42 name: EMU42 version: 0.10beta1 environment: Windows organization/author: Christoph Giesselink http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/Lewis/Hp42demo.zip http://w1.322.telia.com/~u32220482/comments_on_two_hp42s_emulators.pdf status: free Emu48 name: Emu48 (includes 38G, 39G, 40G, 48SX, 48GX, 49G) version: 1.34 environment: Windows organization/author: Christoph Giesselink http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/. status: free Emu48 name: Emu48 last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: Sebastien Carlier status: free Free42 name: Free42 (HP42S) last changed/verified: 2008-02-19 version: 1.1.13 environment: Linux and Windows organization/author: Thomas Okken http://home.planet.nl/~demun000/thomas_projects/free42 http://free42.sourceforge.net/42progs/index.html status: free Note: Palm and Pocket PC versions also available. HP Emulator name: HP Emulator (48GX) last changed/verified: 2002-10-29 version: 0.9.0 environment: Windows organization/author: Daniel Nilsson http://sourceforge.net/projects/hpemu status: free HP10BII Emulator name: HP10BII Emulator (48GX) version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: ? http://www.hpcc.org/links.html status: free HP-11C name: HP-11C last changed/verified: 2005-11-11 version: 1.0.7 environment: Windows organization/author: Henk von Pickartz http://boswachter.free.fr/Kalk http://www.hp16c.com status: not free HP-12C name: HP-12C version: ? environment: Windows / Macintosh organization/author: http://www.manquehue.net/rlira status: not free HP-12C name: HP-12C version: ? environment: Windows / Macintosh organization/author: http://homepage.mac.com/riclira status: not free HP-16C name: HP-16C last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: Joseph M. Newcomer Co. http://www.pgh.net/~newcomer/hp16c.htm status: free Note: Palm version also available. HP-16C name: HP-16C version: preview environment: Java organization/author: Alexander Supalov supalov@foni.net http://home.foni.net/~supalov/hp16c status: free Note: It's available for online preview at http://home.foni.net/~supalov/hp16c . It's implemented using Swing, so that you may need to add Sun's Java plugin at http://java.sun.com/plugin to get it up and running. This is an ongoing effort, and there's a number of limitations to this emulator that we are well aware of, but there may be some that we've missed. Please bear with us: all constructive feedback will be highly appreciated. HP16 Emulator name: HP-16C Emulator last changed/verified: 2005-08-19 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: Jamie O'Connell http://www.hp16c.net status: ? HP-25 Emulator name: HP-25 Emulator last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: DOS organization/author: Nigel Bromley http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/gd86/freesoft.htm status: free HP-35A Emulator name: HP-35A version: ? environment: XWindows, Unix organization/author: Peter Monta http://www.pmonta.com/calculators/hp-35/ status: free HP-41C Emulator name: HP-41C Emulator last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: Warren Furlow http://www.furlow.org status: free HP-41C Emulator name: HP-41C Emulator (Sim41?) last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: DOS organization/author: Alvaro Gerardo Suárez http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bay/4919/ http://geocities.com/algesuar status: free HP-41C, HP-45 Emulators name: HP-41C, HP-45 Emulators last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: XWindows, Unix organization/author: Eric Smith http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/hpcalc/ status: free HP-41C, HP-71B Emulators name: HP-41C, HP-71B Emulators version: ? environment: DOS organization/author: J. Garnier http://membres.lycos.fr/jeffcalc/ status: free HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator name: HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator version: 1.02 environment: Windows organization/author: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emulators/hp41epc.zip status: free HP-55A Emulator name: HP-55A Emulator version: ? environment: XWindows, Unix organization/author: Eric Smith http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/hpcalc/ status: free HP-67 Simulator name: HP-67 Simulator last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Unix, Apple GS organization/author: Christopher Neufeld http://caliban.physics.utoronto.ca/neufeld/hp67/hp67.html status: free hpcalc.org name: hpcalc.org (web site, many models) last changed/verified: 2005-02-23 version: N/A environment: various organization/author: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/ http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/programming/ status: free Note: this site has many emulators and variations. IQ-15C name: IQ-15C last changed/verified: 2006-10-19 version: N/A environment: tcl (runs anywhere tcl runs) organization/author: Torsten Manz' original version: http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/15_1_201.zip Larry Smith modified it to not require installing a font: http://www.smith-house.org:8000/IQ-15C status: free Loki and LokiBin name: Loki and LokiBin last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.0 environment: many organization/author: Craig Finseth http://www.finseth.com/#Loki status: free Note: Several implementations, including: command-line for Windows, Macintosh OS X, and Unix; system manager versions for HP95LX, HP100*, and HP200*; native GUI for Windows, Macintosh OS 8+ and OS X. Loki is a 4-function RPN calculator that does fractional input and output and units. LokiBin is a 4-function RPN calculator that does binary / octal / hex transformation and math. MPCalcRB name: MPCalcRB last changed/verified: 2008-04-14 version: ? environment: Macintosh, Linux, Windows organization/author: http://homepage.mac.com/delaneyrm/MPCalcRB.html status: free Nonpareil name: Nonpareil (many, many) last changed/verified: 2005-06-16 version: ? environment: Linux organization/author: http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com status: free Orpie name: Orpie last changed/verified: 2007-09-15 version: 1.5.1 environment: Unix/OCaml organization/author: Paul Pelzl http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~pelzlpj/orpie/ status: free PCALC name: PCALC last changed/verified: 2006-01-09 version: 3.0.2 environment: Macintosh organization/author: http://www.pcalc.com status: not free Pscalc95 name: Pscalc95 (HP-28ish) version: ? environment: HP95 and similar organization/author: http://ftp.monash.edu.au/pub/palmtop/pscalc.lzh status: free rpn name: rpn (HP42S) last changed/verified: 2005-08-15 version: BashDiff-1.29 environment: GNU Bash shell organization/author: William Park http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/index.html#bashdiff http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ status: free (GPL) RPN Calculator name: RPN Calculator last changed/verified: 2008-03-06 version: 1.96 environment: Macintosh, Windows organization/author: http://www.rpncalculator.net/ status: not free RPL/2 name: RPL/2 (?) version: ? environment: ? organization/author: http://www.makalis.fr/~bertrand/rpl2 status: free RPN Calculator name: RPN Calculator last changed/verified: 2006-03-01 version: ? environment: Macintosh organization/author: http://www.macforth.com/downloads.html status: free Ttcalc name: Ttcalc (HP-41C) last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.3? environment: Windows organization/author: Stefan Seiwerth, mailto:Seiwerth@aol.com http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/simulate.htm http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/ftp-home/pub/cica-win3/desktop/ttbcalc13.zip status: free WRPN name: WRPN (HP-16C) last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: Emmet P. Gray, mailto:GrayE@hood-emh3.army.mil http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/simulate.htm status: free X48 name: X48 (HP48GX) version: 1.2 of the port, 0.4.1 of the original emulator environment: Macintosh organization/author: Markus Fritze http:www.markus-fritze.de status: free XCALC name: XCALC last changed/verified: 2005-08-15 version: 2.6.3 environment: Windows organization/author: Bernt Ribbum http://www.tordivel.no/xcalc/ status: free Note: XCALC 2.6.3 performs calculations in the RPN style using a multi-level stack. The stack size defaults to 4 levels but can be changed by the user. This calculator has 10 storage registers and computes both in complex and real mode. There is also a binary mode available. Visit the website for a more complete description. Xxxx name: Xxxx version: ? environment: Windows (probably) organization/author: Craig Pearce status: free Said to emulate an HP style RPN calculator. Written in Visual Basic. HP Calculators Emulating Other HP Calculators HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator v1.15 for HP-48S/SX/G/G+/GX name: HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator version: 1.15 environment: HP-48S/SX/G/G+/GX organization/author: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/apps/misc/hp41e48.zip status: free HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator v1.15 for HP-49G name: HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator version: 1.15 environment: HP4/9G organization/author: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/apps/misc/hp41e49.zip status: free HP-41X MicroCode Emulator name: HP-41X MicroCode Emulator for HP48GX/49G version: ? environment: HP48/9 Series organization/author: http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com/HP41X/index.htm status: not free HP42X MicroCode Emulator name: HP42X MicroCode Emulator for HP48GX/49G version: ? environment: HP48/9 Series organization/author: http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com/HP42X/index.htm status: not free HP-71X MicroCode Emulator name: HP-71X MicroCode Emulator for HP48GX/49G version: ? environment: HP48/9 Series organization/author: http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com/HP71X/index.htm status: not free HP-IL Emulation for HP-41X name: HP-IL Emulation for HP-41X version: ? environment: ? organization/author: http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com/HP41L/index.htm status: not free HP-IL Emulation for HP-71X name: HP-IL Emulation for HP-71X version: ? environment: ? organization/author: http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com/HP71L/index.htm status: not free Implementations Available For Palm Systems Coconut name: Coconut (HP-41C) last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 3.0.3 environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: both free and not free Free42 name: Free42 (HP42S) last changed/verified: 2005-02-18 version: 1.1.13 environment: Palm organization/author: Thomas Okken http://home.planet.nl/~demun000/thomas_projects/free42 status: free Note: Linux and Windows versions also available. HP-16C name: HP-16C last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: Joseph M. Newcomer Co. http://www.pgh.net/~newcomer/hp16c.htm status: free Note: Windows version also available. Kalc name: Kalc last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 3.0.3 environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: free MathU name: MathU last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: not free Note: related to MathU Pro and PalmCalc. MathU Pro name: MathU Pro last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: not free Note: related to MathU and PalmCalc. NeoCal name: NeoCal last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.5 environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: not free P41CV name: P41CV last changed/verified: 2006-05-15 version: 0.11 environment: Palm organization/author: Charles Lee and Eric Smith status: not free (only $7, though) Palm16c name: Palm16c (HP-16C) last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: Jake Schwartz status: not free PalmCalc name: PalmCalc last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: not free Note: related to MathU and MathU Pro. PowerOne name: PowerOne last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: not free Note: The finance version is the only one offering RPN. RPN name: RPN last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 3.04 environment: Palm organization/author: http://www.palmgear.com status: not free RPN Calculator 1.0.1 name: RPN last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.0.1 environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: free RPN2 name: RPN2 last Changed/verified: 2006-01-27 version: 2.0.1 environment: Palm organization/author: Richard Walker http://bojne.homelinux.net/rpn2.html status: free Implementations Available for Psion Systems DCalc name: DCalc (RPN) version: ? environment: Psion organization/author: Bob Hepple http://sedumi.freeshell.org/psion/index.html PocketIQ status: shareware Multifunction RPN Calculator name: Multifunction RPN Calculator (HP-16Cish) version: ? environment: Psion organization/author: Derek Johnson http://www.freeuk.net/decca status: shareware Psion48 name: Psion48 (similar to HP48SX) version: 2.1 environment: Psion organization/author: Xavier Galante http://Psion48.free.fr status: shareware Implementations Available for Texas Instruments Calculators RPN Calc name: RPN Calc version: 1.01 environment: TI-89 organization/author: Thomas Vino tomasvino yahoo.es http://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/103/10381.html status: free RPN Interface name: RPN Interface version: 2.022 environment: TI-89, TI-92+ organization/author: Lars Frederiksen http://www.paxm.org/symbulator/download/rpn.html status: free Implementations Available for Windows CE Systems EMU48CE name: EMU48CE version: 1.23 Release 2 environment: PocketPC organization/author: Leopoldo Bueno Castillo http://web.jet.es/leobueno/soft/emu48ce.exe status: free EMU48CE name: EMU48CE version: 1.23f organization/author: Pete M. Wilson http://scw.us/ce/emu48/emu48.exe status: free HP-41C Emulator name: HP-41C Emulator last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: WindowsCE organization/author: Warren Furlow http://www.furlow.org status: free Loki and LokiBin name: Loki and LokiBin last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.0 environment: JavaScript organization/author: Craig Finseth http://www.finseth.com/#Loki status: free Note: JavaScript implementation tuned for Windows CE implementation and screen size. Loki is a basic RPN machine and LokiBin does binary/octal/hex transforms and math. Pocket 12C name: Pocket 12C version: 1.5 environment: PocketPC organization/author: Lygea http://www.lygea.com/Pocket12C/V150/Pocket12CV150.exe status: not free Pocket 15C name: Pocket 15C version: 1.1 environment: PocketPC organization/author: Lygea http://www.lygea.com/Pocket15C/V110/Pocket15CV110.exe status: not free Pocket 16C name: Pocket 16C version: 1.0 environment: PocketPC organization/author: Pirrama (Lygea) http://www.pirrama.com/Pocket16C/V100/Pocket16CV100.exe status: not free Implementations Available for Other Systems (may include some of the above) Calc name: RPN last changed/verified: 2005-06-27 version: 2.03 environment: Java, cell phones organization/author: Roar Lauritzsen http://midp-calc.sourceforge.net status: free Power48 name: Power48 version: 2.0 environment: various organization/author: Robert Hildinger http://power48.mobilevoodoo.com/ status: free PSPX48 name: PSPX48 last changed/verified: 2006-04-05 version: 1.0.3 environment: PSP organization/author: http://zx81.zx81.free.fr/serendipity/ status: free Implementations Available for the Web CoCalc, CoCalc2 name: CoCalc CoCalc2 last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Java organization/author: http://www.cohort.com/ status: free HP-16C name: HP-16C last changed/verified: 2005-08-19 version: ? environment: Java organization/author: Chris Lusko http://www.hp16c.com status: ? HP-25 name: HP-25 last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Java organization/author: Larry Leinweber, mailto:larry@leinweb.com http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/simulate.htm status: free HP-35 Simulation name: HP-35 Simulation version: ? environment: JavaScript organization/author: Neil Fraser http://neil.fraser.name/software/hp-35/ status: free HP-45 Microcode Simulator name: HP-45 Microcode Simulator last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Java organization/author: Eric Smith http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/simulate.htm status: free Loki and LokiBin name: Loki and LokiBin last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.0 environment: JavaScript organization/author: Craig Finseth http://www.finseth.com/#Loki status: free End === Subject: hpgcc.org update server outages OpenPGP: id=149EB7E8; url=http://hpgcc.org/pgp_key_149EB7E8.txt -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, as some of you might have noticed, the host, which serves up the HPGCC updates (nightly builds) and the remote library updates, had outages for the last month or so. Meanwhile I moved all files to another host and changed the hpgcc.org server scripts accordingly. The issue should be resolved and everything should be working as usual. - -- Ingo Blank http://hpgcc.org http://blog.hpgcc.org the Reply-To address. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIBLT66ricFBSet+gRAtF7AKCaEen/82xDRXzbQQqvLT3jRg3oXgCffjgv fmVV1KyHZK9ROr/2TU0Seng= =KYXu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- === Subject: Subject is blank? Whaddawe gonna do about this.. fiddle fardle faddle nonsense twadle murph mup pip coffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffeecoffee >>BING<<>>BING<<>>BING<<>>BING<<>>BING<<>>BING<<>>BING<< I'm hating this class................................ zoomzoomzoomzoomzoom send me away:clank.whiiine.clank. umgph And to the east: Looking out over rooftops and trees, there came to sight, slowly clearing spaces between the elements, which held this spring morning in a clouded state, and the sun broke through. For you, Doodley-Doo. Hoo-hoo. === Subject: CAS integration bug posting-account=aJhvMAoAAABqICGF80eSUn6d3D9SANQE Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Here's a strange CAS bug I ran across in class this week. Set the calculator in EXACT, REAL, RECTANGULAR modes Put the following on the stack: 4: 0 3: pi 2: 'SIN(X)^3' 1: 'X' Do a definite integral (RS-TAN). You should get 4/3 which is the correct answer. Press UNDO and switch the mode from RECTANGULAR to either CYLINDRICAL (Polar) or SPHERICAL and do the definite integral again. I get 3/2, and REAL mode has changed to COMPLEX. Press UNDO again redo the same integral without changing anything and you get 4/3 again. The difference seems to be that the calculator in now in COMPLEX mode. Interestingly, it does not have this behavior when using the symbolic expression 'integral(0,pi,SIN(X)^3,X)' or entering it in ALG mode. If using RISCH or INTVX on 'SIN(X)^3', you get a different symbolic result for each of the four combinations of REAL/COMPLEX mode and RECT/ CYLIN mode. Three of the four are equivalent and are correct, but the REAL/CYLIN combination gives a different, incorrect result. Anybody know what's going on here? -wes === Subject: Re: CAS integration bug CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Set the calculator in EXACT, REAL, RECTANGULAR modes > Put the following on the stack: 4: 0 > 3: pi > 2: 'SIN(X)^3' > 1: 'X' Do a definite integral (RS-TAN). ÊYou should get 4/3 which is the > correct answer. Interesting, but I can't duplicate this on my 49G+ with v2.09. The calc switches to approximate mode and I get 1.33... in all versions except complex. Are there some flag settings that might be affecting this? Bill === Subject: Re: CAS integration bug posting-account=aJhvMAoAAABqICGF80eSUn6d3D9SANQE Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Set the calculator in EXACT, REAL, RECTANGULAR modes > Put the following on the stack: 4: 0 > 3: pi > 2: 'SIN(X)^3' > 1: 'X' Do a definite integral (RS-TAN). You should get 4/3 which is the > correct answer. Interesting, but I can't duplicate this on my 49G+ with v2.09. The > calc switches to approximate mode and I get 1.33... in all versions > except complex. Are there some flag settings that might be affecting > this? Bill I've got the same ROM on my 50g. I get the same results with EMU48 with the 2.09 emulator ROM. I don't have my 50g in front of me, but my EMU flags are: { # 700000820521CFF0h # 101h # 89010020A000000h # 0h } -wes === Subject: Hydrix and TI I was reading the news pages at Hydrix and have noticed that they seemed to be heavily involved with TI on their next generation of calculators. Will this have any impact on HP graphing calcs? They seemed to have helped develop them upto the 50g. === Subject: Re: Hydrix and TI > I was reading the news pages at Hydrix and have noticed > that they seemed to be heavily involved with TI on their > next generation of calculators. Will this have any impact on HP graphing calcs? > They seemed to have helped develop them upto the 50g. And why do you ask this question here? Isn't Hydrix's web site the logical addressee? === Subject: Re: Hydrix and TI > On Apr 19, 1:44 am, Borked Pseudo Mailed I was reading the news pages at Hydrix and have noticed >> that they seemed to be heavily involved with TI on their >> next generation of calculators. Where do you see this on the Hydrix news page ? -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: Hydrix and TI posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Apr 18, 11:44Êam, Borked Pseudo Mailed that they seemed to be heavily involved with TI on their > next generation of calculators. Will this have any impact on HP graphing calcs? > They seemed to have helped develop them upto the 50g. Well ever since HP foolishly deserted them, I assume they're independent now. Their website says: We design and develop embedded solutions for products with limited processing and energy resources, specialising in high performance hand- held devices for educational, retail and automotive applications. That applies to calculators of all brands; I don't see a reason why they would have to remain loyal to HP when HP does not even seem interested in calculators any longer. S.C. === Subject: Re: CAS integration bug CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) After some tinkering, I found you could boil it down to the fact that in cylindrical or spherical mode (plus Real mode), you get different answers from the stack version and the algebraic expression version. Another symptom is that the calculator doesn't switch from Real to Complex until the calculation is over. If you switch to Complex before you start, the problem doesn't come up. And just to confuse things further, it only happens if the exponent of SIN(X) is an odd number. Try it with any even exponent and it works fine. This is a peculiar one. Bill === Subject: Conn4x, IrDA, HP 50g I am trying to connect the HP 50 g with Conn4x, using the IrDA port. On Windows XP I am using Ircomm2k in order to emulate com4, with success. I can connect the calculator with PC Connectivity Kit from HP without any problems. (115200 baud at HP50g, 9600 baud, the max. possible setting in PC Conn., Kermit). With conn4x I am able to get a screenshot from the HP 50. But I can't establish a connection, using X-Mode-Server. === Subject: HP 50g: Integration of EXP(-X^2) the Ti folks can integrate EXP(-X^2), e. g. from -infinity to infinity. If I try this on my 50G this way: * enter integral in equation editor, ENTER * EVAL it (X becomes Xt?!) * ->NUM ... it says ->NUM error: Overflow. With both borders real it works though. How could I work around this problem and calculate this integral with infinite borders? Bj.9arn -- BOFH excuse #431: Borg implants are failing === Subject: Re: HP 50g: Integration of EXP(-X^2) > the TI folks can integrate EXP(-X^2) from -infinity to infinity. '.S(-oo,oo,EXP(-SQ(X)),X)' ->NUM Result: 1.7724538509 Flags: { #7881A10201615FF1h #0 #5150410A214020h #0 } === Subject: Re: nonpareil for Mac OS X Website > There appears to be a problem with the nonpareil for Mac OS X Website. > Does this need to be reported? http://homepage.mac.com/mba/nonpareil/ Ivan. Just tried it - seems to be ok. == Subject: HP-50g variable scripts Does anyone know what the variables that allow me to have a calculated output based on the inputs on the stack is called? I'm trying to write up some scripts for me to carry out repeating calculations faster when === Subject: Re: HP-50g variable scripts > Does anyone know what the variables that allow me to have a calculated > output based on the inputs on the stack is called? I'm trying to write > up some scripts for me to carry out repeating calculations faster when Programs? Are you referring in particular to User-defined functions? It's not necessary to follow that style, because any program at all can use data from the stack; a UDF is basically a program which can be treated as a function within an algebraic formula, e.g.: 'Stan(x,y,z)=z^2-x^2-y^2' DEFINE creates a program named 'Stan' which takes its three arguments from the stack and evaluates the given expression; when you recall the program itself to the stack, you will see how a UDF in particular looks, but the following simpler program could also be used: << SQ ROT SQ ROT SQ + - >> === Subject: Re: HP-50g variable scripts posting-account=Gt-ffQoAAAAJl9zUa7Q7iwGkJH-TT-Gt Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Does anyone know what the variables that allow me to have a calculated > output based on the inputs on the stack is called? I'm trying to write > up some scripts for me to carry out repeating calculations faster when Programs? Are you referring in particular to User-defined functions? It's not necessary to follow that style, because any program at all > can use data from the stack; a UDF is basically a program > which can be treated as a function within an algebraic formula, e.g.: 'Stan(x,y,z)=z^2-x^2-y^2' DEFINE creates a program named 'Stan' > which takes its three arguments from the stack > and evaluates the given expression; > when you recall the program itself to the stack, > you will see how a UDF in particular looks, > but the following simpler program could also be used: << SQ ROT SQ ROT SQ + - > > inconvenient to type up the << >> programs on a computer before flashing them onto the calculator? I find typing on the calculator quite slow and it drains my batteries fairly quickly. === Subject: Re: HP-50g variable scripts > I want to get started on User-RPL programming on the HP-50g. > However, the user's manual doesn't seem to be very clear on some parts > and I can't find any understandable guides out there. > Does anyone know where I can look for a good guide? programming in UserRPL is still pretty much the same: http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=hp+48g+series+guide Also Chapters 1 & 2 of the Advanced Users' Reference (AUR) http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c00554621/c00554621. pdf Training guides? http://h20331.www2.hp.com/Hpsub/downloads/hp50gPDFfiles.zip > Do you find it more inconvenient to type up the << >> programs > on a computer before flashing them onto the calculator? > I find typing on the calculator quite slow > and it drains my batteries fairly quickly. If you are near an electric outlet, and have a power supply which provides a USB output, you can connect your USB cord to it, and the HP50G calculator will run on that power instead (whereas the 49G+ will not). UserRPL programs can be typed as text on a computer, and transferred to the calculator using the transfer software provided. Some people like to use a computer editor made for the calculator, others (like me) use any Notepad-like editor, representing the special non-ascii 8-bit characters with 7-bit ascii strings that the calculator can interpret in their place, e.g. << and >> The HP file transfer software makes these translations while transferring files, or one can do it via small programs if the files are instead stored on an SD card. My own battery seems to have just run out, so it looks as if my brain will automatically shut down now. Best wishes. === Subject: Re: HP-50g variable scripts posting-account=Gt-ffQoAAAAJl9zUa7Q7iwGkJH-TT-Gt Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Does anyone know what the variables that allow me to have a calculated > output based on the inputs on the stack is called? I'm trying to write > up some scripts for me to carry out repeating calculations faster when Never mind about the last question. I know that I want to get started on User-RPL programming on the HP-50g. However, the user's manual doesn't seem to be very clear on some parts and I can't find any understandable guides out there. Does anyone know where I can look for a good guide? === Subject: Re: HP-02 > Very cool :-) But the ENTER key is in the wrong place and the wrong size! ;-) Laust === Subject: Re: 49G/49G+/50G BUG - Tagged object in negative form I found a 49G/49G+/50G bug : << > :a:1 > -> a > << > '-a' EVAL > EVAL Error: Insufficient memory A tagged object can't be valuated inside algebraic object in its > negative form. Works for me on Emu.50G. My program is: << :a:1 -> a << '-a' EVAL >>> My flags are { #204010FF4h #0h #8010000002000000h #0h }, ROM version HP50-C revision #2.09 and I created the minus sign of -a by entering minus rather than +/- and deleted the spaces that the editor puts in. There is nothing else much in memory so I'm not sure why you get the result that you do. Could you post your flag settings, please, and ROM version. Purely conjecture but I wonder if your version is somehow confusing the 'a' of the tag with the 'a' of the local variable. Try changing the tag to 'b' (or some letter that is not an existing variable) and see what you get. Finally, if you do: << :a:1 -> a << 'a' EVAL >>> then you get :a:1 back and this is interesting because it seems that local variables can store tagged objects whereas globals can't. If you store :a:1 into 'X' (where X is a global) then 'X' RCL gives 1 and the tag is lost. -- Bruce Horrocks Surrey England (bruce at scorecrow dot com) === Subject: Re: 49G/49G+/50G BUG - Tagged object in negative form > Works for me on Emu50G > My flags are { #204010FF4h #0h #8010000002000000h #0h } That includes flag -3 (numeric results) being set, which bypasses the problem, as previously noted. > if you do: << :a:1 -> a << 'a' EVAL >> > then you get :a:1 back and this is interesting > because it seems that local variables can store tagged objects > whereas globals can't. If you store :a:1 into 'X' (where X is a global) > then 'X' RCL gives 1 and the tag is lost. Yes, that's interesting. Maybe that's what catches CASCOMPEVAL by surprise, but it shouldn't (after all, COMPEVAL handles it fine, on both HP48 and HP49/50). === Subject: Re: 49G/49G+/50G BUG - Tagged object in negative form > >> Works for me on Emu50G > >> My flags are { #204010FF4h #0h #8010000002000000h #0h } That includes flag -3 (numeric results) being set, > which bypasses the problem, as previously noted. Doh! Sorry, I'd forgotten that I'd changed that. I must use the calc more often. :-( Okay, so now I've reproduced the bug, I've tried swapping the 'a' tag with 'b' and it makes no difference so that blows that theory out of the water. -- Bruce Horrocks Surrey England (bruce at scorecrow dot com) === Subject: Re: HP-50g quick reference?? posting-account=82unwgoAAABKn0foN-teZr4DLYjqF_TL Gecko/2008032620 Firefox/3.0b5,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I recently bought an HP-50g. ÊCompared with my trusty 48sx, it's > dazzlingly fast, has a very clear display, and is full of features. > Sadly, also compared with the 48sx, the documentation is abysmal. One thing the SX had, neatly stashed in its soft case, was a complete > command summary, listing commands by name, along with their stack > effects. ÊAs long as you were familiar with the command, this was > really handy when programming. ÊIt was also helpful spotting less > familiar commands so you could get out the reference manual and get to > know them. For the 50g, with its >700 commands, this list would be even more > useful, even if it wouldn't fit in the case. ÊHas anyone put together > such a list for the 50g as a PDF file or some such? Failing that, any suggestions on extracting the complete list of > command names from the calculator? ÊGetting CAT's output in ASCII > would at least save me *some* typing, and would be less error prone > too. As usual, John H Meyers is correct. However, I suspect you may still find the type of documented you requested useful. So as I promised here is a link to an 11 page PDF that contains virtually all the commands along with dtack diagrams for each. It also indicated button equivlents for commands that have them, as well as how to access the menu that contains them. This is based on the spreadsheet by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen, although I removed information not useful for an hp50g quick guide, such as the information about what other calculators have the commands, or commands only available in those calculators, etc. I'm pretty sure this is more or less exactly what you were wanting, so please take a look. username@localhost === Subject: Re: HP-50g quick reference?? Originator: roberts@athlonx2.gville (Robert Swan) >As usual, John H Meyers is correct. However, I suspect you may still >find the type of documented you requested useful. Right on both counts. I have downloaded the 49g quick reference as he suggested; much closer to the 50g than my 48sx guide was, but still want the comprehensive list of 50g commands. >So as I promised here is a link to an 11 page PDF that contains >virtually all the commands along with dtack diagrams for each. It also >indicated button equivlents for commands that have them, as well as >how to access the menu that contains them. >This is based on the spreadsheet by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen, although I >removed information not useful for an hp50g quick guide, such as the >information about what other calculators have the commands, or >commands only available in those calculators, etc. I'm pretty sure this is more or less exactly what you were wanting, so >please take a look. Excellent. It is exactly what I was after and will be a great help >username@localhost Who was that masked man? ... Have fun, Robert. -- Robert Swan | No, not the antarctic adventurer. swan.r.l@gmail.com | No, not the Canberra porn monger. | Yes, that's right, the boring one. === Subject: Re: HP-50g quick reference?? posting-account=fTT5TwoAAACW2Q4-7lAKm_GfZPyy3DmS Gecko/20021112 CS 2000 7.0/7.0,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) HTTP/1.1 cache-ntc-ac10.proxy.aol.com[CFC8748B] (Traffic-Server/6.1.5 [uScM]) I've seen the spreadsheet by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen. But I am confused by his (and your) columns entitled Type and #a T #r Would you define the meaning of these two columns?. GC > I recently bought an HP-50g. ?Compared with my trusty 48sx, it's > dazzlingly fast, has a very clear display, and is full of features. > Sadly, also compared with the 48sx, the documentation is abysmal. One thing the SX had, neatly stashed in its soft case, was a complete > command summary, listing commands by name, along with their stack > effects. ?As long as you were familiar with the command, this was > really handy when programming. ?It was also helpful spotting less > familiar commands so you could get out the reference manual and get to > know them. For the 50g, with its >700 commands, this list would be even more > useful, even if it wouldn't fit in the case. ?Has anyone put together > such a list for the 50g as a PDF file or some such? Failing that, any suggestions on extracting the complete list of > command names from the calculator? ?Getting CAT's output in ASCII > would at least save me *some* typing, and would be less error prone > too. As usual, John H Meyers is correct. However, I suspect you may still > find the type of documented you requested useful. > So as I promised here is a link to an 11 page PDF that contains > virtually all the commands along with dtack diagrams for each. It also > indicated button equivlents for commands that have them, as well as > how to access the menu that contains them. > This is based on the spreadsheet by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen, although I > removed information not useful for an hp50g quick guide, such as the > information about what other calculators have the commands, or > commands only available in those calculators, etc. I'm pretty sure this is more or less exactly what you were wanting, so > please take a look. username@localhost === Subject: Re: HP-50g quick reference?? posting-account=82unwgoAAABKn0foN-teZr4DLYjqF_TL Gecko/2008032620 Firefox/3.0b5,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I've seen the spreadsheet by Veli-Pekka Nousiainen. > But I am confused by his (and your) columns entitled Type and #a T > #r > Would you define the meaning of these two columns?. > GC > I'm not fully certain of the meaning myself. What is apparent is that the types column was reduandant, and so I should have excluded it from my version. I just forgot to do that. The second column seems to cryptically indicate the form the command would take in algebraic mode, but I'm not entirely clear it it either. === Subject: Re: HP-50g quick reference?? > I recently bought an HP-50g. Compared with my trusty 48sx, it's > dazzlingly fast, has a very clear display, and is full of features. > Sadly, also compared with the 48sx, the documentation is abysmal. One thing the SX had, neatly stashed in its soft case, was a complete > command summary, listing commands by name, along with their stack effects. The HP50G has only a few more commands than an HP49G, which came with a pocket-sized guide: http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=49g+pocket+guide+hewlett But it wasn't perfect: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3027 Keep your 48SX guide (and any others for 48S[X]/G[X] series), because it's all still in the 50G; list-processing commands (48GX) and a CAS are mostly all that's new, command-wise, and the CAS commands actually have on-board HELP. === Subject: Re: HP-50g quick reference?? posting-account=Aj8MiwoAAAD_wmOp9k5AhwV0umu0xrbe Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I recently bought an HP-50g. Compared with my trusty 48sx, it's > dazzlingly fast, has a very clear display, and is full of features. > Sadly, also compared with the 48sx, the documentation is abysmal. One thing the SX had, neatly stashed in its soft case, was a complete > command summary, listing commands by name, along with their stack > effects. As long as you were familiar with the command, this was > really handy when programming. It was also helpful spotting less > familiar commands so you could get out the reference manual and get to > know them. For the 50g, with its >700 commands, this list would be even more > useful, even if it wouldn't fit in the case. Has anyone put together > such a list for the 50g as a PDF file or some such? Failing that, any suggestions on extracting the complete list of > command names from the calculator? Getting CAT's output in ASCII > would at least save me *some* typing, and would be less error prone > too. Have fun, Robert. > -- > Robert Swan | No, not the antarctic adventurer. > swan....@gmail.com | No, not the Canberra porn monger. > | Yes, that's right, the boring one. In tha CAT menu there is a Help sectoin which explains the various CAS commands === Subject: Re: HP-50g quick reference?? posting-account=82unwgoAAABKn0foN-teZr4DLYjqF_TL Gecko/2008032620 Firefox/3.0b5,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I recently bought an HP-50g. ÊCompared with my trusty 48sx, it's > dazzlingly fast, has a very clear display, and is full of features. > Sadly, also compared with the 48sx, the documentation is abysmal. One thing the SX had, neatly stashed in its soft case, was a complete > command summary, listing commands by name, along with their stack > effects. ÊAs long as you were familiar with the command, this was > really handy when programming. ÊIt was also helpful spotting less > familiar commands so you could get out the reference manual and get to > know them. For the 50g, with its >700 commands, this list would be even more > useful, even if it wouldn't fit in the case. ÊHas anyone put together > such a list for the 50g as a PDF file or some such? Failing that, any suggestions on extracting the complete list of > command names from the calculator? ÊGetting CAT's output in ASCII > would at least save me *some* typing, and would be less error prone > too. Have fun, Robert. > -- > Robert Swan Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê | No, not the antarctic adventurer. > swan....@gmail.com Ê Ê| No, not the Canberra porn monger. > Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê | Yes, that's right, the boring one. I agree withg damir's suggestion of hlp49, which provides a nice on- calc description of the vast majority of the UserRPL commands, although it lacks many of the CAS functions, as the calc has built-in documentation for those. Warning though that IMHO hlp49 is not worth using you use the SD card version, which obviously requires an SD card. (even a small one is fine, I'm using a fairly old 64 MB card with no issues, and I have hlp64's files as well as the SDiag files (which contain information about SystemRPL commands) and still have plenty of space on the card for things like backups. ) However, it sounds like what you might really want is a list of commands along with a stack diagram for each. It should be possible to create such a file from the userRPL section of Carsten Dominik's database. === Subject: Re: HP-50g quick reference?? posting-account=82unwgoAAABKn0foN-teZr4DLYjqF_TL Gecko/2008032620 Firefox/3.0b5,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Apr 2, 9:42 pm, username localhost I recently bought an HP-50g. Compared with my trusty 48sx, it's > dazzlingly fast, has a very clear display, and is full of features. > Sadly, also compared with the 48sx, the documentation is abysmal. One thing the SX had, neatly stashed in its soft case, was a complete > command summary, listing commands by name, along with their stack > effects. As long as you were familiar with the command, this was > really handy when programming. It was also helpful spotting less > familiar commands so you could get out the reference manual and get to > know them. For the 50g, with its >700 commands, this list would be even more > useful, even if it wouldn't fit in the case. Has anyone put together > such a list for the 50g as a PDF file or some such? Failing that, any suggestions on extracting the complete list of > command names from the calculator? Getting CAT's output in ASCII > would at least save me *some* typing, and would be less error prone > too. Have fun, Robert. > -- > Robert Swan | No, not the antarctic adventurer. > swan....@gmail.com | No, not the Canberra porn monger. > | Yes, that's right, the boring one. I agree withg damir's suggestion of hlp49, which provides a nice on- > calc description of the vast majority of the UserRPL commands, > although it lacks many of the CAS functions, as the calc has built-in > documentation for those. Warning though that IMHO hlp49 is not worth > using you use the SD card version, which obviously requires an SD > card. (even a small one is fine, I'm using a fairly old 64 MB card > with no issues, and I have hlp64's files as well as the SDiag files > (which contain information about SystemRPL commands) and still have > plenty of space on the card for things like backups. ) However, it sounds like what you might really want is a list of > commands along with a stack diagram for each. > It should be possible to create such a file from the userRPL section > of Carsten Dominik's database. Aha. I have found what you want. The spreadsheet available at http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=5265 contains what you want. I've created a cut down PDF file based on that which will be much more useful to you. I will send the PDF to you (it may take a day or so before I get the chance). === Subject: negative exponents posting-account=7ypjXwoAAAA6Phe0dE2NwavGiqMYGDdw en),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello all, Just got a 50g and am loving it! Quick question: Is there a way to show negative exponents instead of the 1/x notation? I find it easier to look at e^-jt instead of 1/ e^jt. Christoph === Subject: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G posting-account=2G4L-woAAABoWmw_YYmxjw-bOIfoIAqk Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) can anyone comment on the treebrowser program for the 50G? is it worth it? === Subject: Re: [UPDATED} EDGE: new kind of plotter In our ongoing quest to perfection, the Hydrix team have continued working on our EmbeDded Graphic Engine. It now works a la Google Map. Much more dynamic you can drag the graph around ; double click on a point to center etc.. You can also click on the various examples to directly generate the graph. And finally, it is possible to get a direct link on the graph you've generated, so you can post here some cool graph. Have a play and let us know how you go .. Jean-Yves -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: [UPDATED} EDGE: new kind of plotter In our ongoing quest to perfection, the Hydrix team have continued > working on our EmbeDded Graphic Engine. > Have a play and let us know how you go .. Where to play? http://www.hydrix.com/edge/graph.php === Subject: Re: [UPDATED} EDGE: new kind of plotter Hi On 2008-04-05 16:41:39 +1100, John H Meyers said: ] Where to play? http://www.hydrix.com/edge/graph.php Oops , sorry, in my eagerness to post I forgot the URL http://www.hydrix.com/edge2/graph.php It's still under testing, so I haven't put it at the main URL yet ... Jean-Yves -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: [UPDATED} EDGE: new kind of plotter > Hi > This plot looks nice, has a fractal like feel, especially if you zoom in on the stars :) http://www.hydrix.com/edge2/graph.php?reln=sin%28x%5E2%2Ay%29+%3Dln%28x%2Fy% 29&xmin=-0.45&xmax=23.55&ymin=-0.6&ymax=15.4 Gjermund === Subject: HP's award Winning Support Team Explains the ONe Year Warranty Here is an excerpt from a private email sent today to a would be HP50 seller explaining why, after talking to HP Calculator Support, I am unable to take a chance on the 50g which is being offered for resale. Basically, the logic is that all things considered, and having been burned once, it is too risky to purchase this product knowing that more likely than not it will fail and that the terms and conditions for the warranty are far to harsh to roll the dice. ------------------BEGIN EXCERPT--------------------------------- The HP support people told me that the warranty expires one year from the time of purchase or one year from the date of manufacture whichever comes first, but that the warranty is not transferable meaning that for you, the original owner, it will be good for one year from the date purchased, but for the second owner, one who is not registered for the warranty, they would use the first 3 digits of the serial number and add one year to it. So, for anyone who buys it, they will have until the 20th week of year 2008 (the second and third numbers represent the week of production). So, for a calculator that was manufactured, sat on the shelf, was later purchased, and subsequently sold, the new buyer doesn't get a full year warranty. In other words, the meter was running while the cab was stalled in traffic. Exacerbating all of this is the fact that this unit is more likely than not not fail. Nobody in their right mind is going to take a chance with HP with this attitude from their award winning support team. I plan next to write a letter to Corporate Office while continuing to flame the company on comp.sys.hp48 newsgroup. In fact I will probably post this response there now. ---------------------END EXCERPT----------------------------------- === Subject: Re: [Re] A bug and a related mini-challenge re LSQ >Previously... Solving 'A*X=B' via LSQ for [[ 1 1 0 0 0 -1 ] > [ 1 0 -1 0 1 0 ] > [ 0 1 1 1 0 0 ] > [ 0 0 0 1 1 1 ]] 'A' STO [[ 4 ] > [ 8 ] > [ 12 ] > [ 16 ]] 'B' STO Although this case is labeled under-determined, >the rows of [A] are linearly dependent >(row4 = row2 + row3 - row1), >hence there do not exist solutions for an arbitrary [B], It's true that there may not exist exact solutions for arbitrary B, but there are still an infinite number of exact solutions. For example, let a general solution vector be: [[ X1 ] [ X2 ] [ X3 ] [ X4 ] [ X5 ] [ X6 ]] now consider the vector: [[ X3-X5+8 ] [ X5+X6-X3-4 ] [ X3 ] [ 16-X5-X6 ] [ X5 ] [ X6 ]] where X3, X5 and X6 are chosen arbitrarily. This vector is an exact solution for the original system as may be easily verified. In particular, when X3=1, X5=6 and X6=3 we have the minimum norm solution. Another way to look at it is this. Consider these 3 vectors: [ -1 1 -1 0 0 0 ]T, [ 1 -1 0 1 -1 0 ]T and [ 0 -1 0 1 0 -1 ]T Any multiple of any of them, singly or in any combination, may be added to any exact solution of the original system, any you will have another exact solution. That is what is meant by saying that these 3 vectors span the row null space of the original system matrix, because if you premultiply any of them by the original A matrix. you get a result vector of all zeros. That means that if you add any of them to some exact solution, when that modified solution is premultiplied by A, the addition of the null vectors will have added zero to the result of that premultiplication, so that the modified solution is still a solution. Thus we can easily see that there are an infinite number of exact solutions. >even though there are solutions for this particular [B], >with the minimum-norm solution being: [[ 3 ] > [ 4 ] > [ 1 ] > [ 7 ] > [ 6 ] > [ 3 ]] In response to my slightly altering 'B' >(so that no solutions exist) and recalculating, >Rodger Rosenbaum said: But first I said: Create another matrix, and call it A' (the first two columns are swapped): [[ 1 1 0 0 0 -1 ] [ 0 1 -1 0 1 0 ] [ 1 0 1 1 0 0 ] [ 0 0 0 1 1 1 ]] Try this experiment: > Perturb the last element of the B matrix more and more; > let it become 16.000000001, 16.00000001, 16.0000001, 16.000001, etc. And right here I actually said: > Repeatedly solve the system A*X=B with LSQ, where B is Repeatedly solve the system A'*X=B' with LSQ, where B' is > incrementally perturbed. Look at what the solutions are doing. Okay, I've incrementally perturbed until 16 has become 17, >and the result of B A LSQ is now... still wrong (Rodger's bug), If you calculated B' A' LSQ, it wouldn't be wrong. >but using B B + A A + LSQ gets the right result, which is: [[ 3 ] > [ 4 ] > [ 1 ] > [ 7.25 ] > [ 6.25 ] > [ 3.25 ]] 'X' STO In which case 'A*X' is: [[ 3.75 ] > [ 8.25 ] > [ 12.25 ] > [ 16.75 ]] And residual 'B-A*X' is: [[ .25 ] > [ -.25 ] > [ -.25 ] > [ .25 ]] Now that we have the right answers, My point was that if you slightly perturb the original B vector, (thus getting a B' vector), the solution is only slightly perturbed from [ 3 4 1 7 6 3 ]T. The solution doesn't suddenly jump as a result of a small perturbation in B. If you redo all your perturbed calculations with the matrix A' instead of A, you will see different things happening, presumably the same thing you saw with your B B + A A + LSQ solutions. It's the bug in LSQ that makes it appear that a slight perturbation in B causes a sudden jump in the solution. If you use A' in the repeated calculations with perturbations in B starting very small and continually increasing, you will see that the change in the solution is initially small and gradually increases with increasing perturbation in B. >there still remains the question: What did LSQ minimize? Do you mean what did the buggy LSQ minimize, or do you mean what would LSQ minimize if it was working right as it does with the system A'*X=B? The buggy LSQ returns a result that isn't the desired minimum because the solution it returns includes some of the null space vectors. It did not minimize the length of X >over all solutions [i.e. where 'A*X=B'] >of the 'under-determined' system, >because there are no such solutions, not even approximately, The reason it (the buggy LSQ) didn't return the minimum length X isn't because there are '...no such solutions'; it's because it's buggy. It isn't true that '...there are no such solutions,', as I showed above. There are exact solutions. Golub and Van Loan say, ...for an underdetermined system there are either no solutions or an infinite number of solutions, and they mean exact solutions. By exact solution, I mean that the norm of the solution residual is zero. But, there are always approximate solutions. The GX owner's manual says on page 14-14, Under-Determined systems, There are either no solutions or an infinite number of solutions. If a solution exists, you want to find the solution with the minimum Euclidean norm, otherwise you want to find a minimum norm least-squares solution. To be more accurate, they should say: There are either no EXACT solutions or an infinite number of EXACT solutions. If an EXACT solution exists, you want to find the EXACT solution with the minimum Euclidean norm, otherwise you want to find a minimum norm least-squares APPROXIMATE solution. The solution you found above for the case where the last row element of the original B vector changes from 16 to 17: [[ 3 ] [ 4 ] [ 1 ] [ 7.25 ] [ 6.25 ] [ 3.25 ]] isn't that far from the minimum X norm exact solution of the original system. It is an approximate solution. Perhaps the HP ought to say ...minimize the length of X over all solutions, exact or approximate. >so what does this result really mean? Certainly there are no exact solutions, > but there are approximate solutions, > and there is only one minimum norm approximate solution. > And that is what LSQ is supposed to find. The AUR actually says the right thing, >which seems to be that no matter what the input, >LSQ may be said to solve the following two consecutive problems: 1. First find the minimum-norm possible residual ('B-A*X'), then In the case of the original system the minimum residual norm is zero. >2. Find the minimum norm X giving that value of the residual. The misleading words over-determined, under-determined, and solution >should probably not be used in the description of LSQ. They aren't misleading if used according to convention, which HP doesn't do. In Golub and Van Loan's book, Matrix Computations, they give the convention. Underdetermined means more unknowns than equations and overdetermined means more equations than unknowns. Rank isn't involved in the definition of those two words, but it does determine the nature of possible solutions. I do agree that the word solution should be particularized in the HP manuals. Sometimes when they just say solution, they should say approximate solution, and sometimes they should say exact solution; doing this would remove some ambiguities. Meanwhile, it remains a mystery why, in this particular case >which Rodger discovered, B A LSQ flies off into absurd results, >while B B + A A + LSQ gets the right result. Werner has tracked down the cause. It turns out that LSQ uses the QR decomposition and along the way it tries to determine the rank of the system by comparing the largest singular value to the smallest. It looks for a ratio of greater or less than 1E-14, and for this system an slight error is made, apparently because 15 form arithmetic doesn't round properly, but just truncates. As Rodger's relentless detective work uncovered, >this previously undiscovered flaw >existed even in the original HP48G[X], >as well as persisting in the HP49/50 series -- we already know >to have no confidence in answers given by the modern HP49/50, >but now even the reputation of Wickes' original team is spoiled, >which unfortunately mimics many situations in history and politics :) -=-=-=- === Subject: 48g and 48gII transfer Can programs for the 48g 32k be used on the 48gII and also can the programs be exchanged between the 48gII and the 48g with a pc link and/ or infrared transfer. Ed === Subject: Re: 48g and 48gII transfer > Can programs for the 48g 32k be used on the 48gII and also > can the programs be exchanged between the 48gII and the 48g > with a pc link and/or infrared transfer. UserRPL (in text form) is for the most part compatible, while binary objects are not (because of the major change in ROM addresses between the two series, a 48Gii being a 49-series product, like the 49G/49G+/50G); a backup of HOME, being a binary object, is also not directly transferable. If you archive your HOME directory directly to a PC, the result can be RESTOREd to Emu48, so that all subsequent operations may be carried out on a PC, between two emulated calcs, then finally either transferred individually or all of emilated 48Gii HOME sent at once from the PC to the 48Gii -- presuming that you have a serial COM port on your PC (or can create one via a USB-to-serial converter). IR has been reported to be too weak for direct transfer, but serial cable transfer (either direct or via computer) should be possible, in ascii (text) mode only. === Subject: Re: Menu Label Builder posting-account=Rr1BpAoAAAC35AO1lUfz6ZegzjxdWL8v Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > as complicated as your surveying program which I wonder how you miss > to mention? As opposed to someone who constantly says useless, snippy remarks that > dont help anyone? You seem to have gotten more bitter over the past > month or two. Did someone run over your kitten? I was thinking it might be a complete new menu system that would build > menus, control they keys and shift functions, etc. If so, I was > wondering how such a thing fit into 1Kb (and then I would bow to > Raymond and worship his amazing skill), and also what advantages it > would have over the built in menu system which is already so darn > flexible. I think you will find when the discussion is on a) surveying, b) > connecting the calculator to something serially, or c) HPGCC stuff, it > gets mentioned because it is very relevant to the conversation. Not everyone thinks onboard is a good thing. Leicas is the best > onboard, but I still think it is limited. Just a few weeks ago I had > a guy who has been using Leicas onboard for years tell me how much it > sucks and how glad he is to be done with it. This guy is a certified > Leica repair tech and works for a large company that has around 100 > Leicas with everything on up to the top of the line laser > scanners. . . TW PS - just in case youd like to know, the surveying program does have > a simple editor to graphically build menu label graphics. It isnt > beautiful as it isnt really a key functionality and so I could care > less, but you can stick in text and draw using the cursor keys just > fine. :-) the problems with the onboard software always come from the fact that the software has been written by non surveyors or by such putting up with the bear minimum that does the job. on the other hand but probably relevant, using external data collector these days means youre not doing very well in the surveying business and whats more, you wont be doing well. you can tell your leica guy that he has no idea what he is talking about. and youd better save your personal comments for yourself if you dont wanna read some about you; btw I wouldnt accept your data collector even as a gift, Id chuck it in the rubbish bin so I dont look like a looser ;) cheers, reth, (surveyor) === Subject: Re: Menu Label Builder posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) as complicated as your surveying program which I wonder how you miss > to mention? As opposed to someone who constantly says useless, snippy remarks that > dont help anyone? ÊYou seem to have gotten more bitter over the past > month or two. ÊDid someone run over your kitten? I was thinking it might be a complete new menu system that would build > menus, control they keys and shift functions, etc. ÊIf so, I was > wondering how such a thing fit into 1Kb (and then I would bow to > Raymond and worship his amazing skill), and also what advantages it > would have over the built in menu system which is already so darn > flexible. I think you will find when the discussion is on a) surveying, b) > connecting the calculator to something serially, or c) HPGCC stuff, it > gets mentioned because it is very relevant to the conversation. Not everyone thinks onboard is a good thing. ÊLeicas is the best > onboard, but I still think it is limited. ÊJust a few weeks ago I had > a guy who has been using Leicas onboard for years tell me how much it > sucks and how glad he is to be done with it. ÊThis guy is a certified > Leica repair tech and works for a large company that has around 100 > Leicas with everything on up to the top of the line laser > scanners. . . TW PS - just in case youd like to know, the surveying program does have > a simple editor to graphically build menu label graphics. ÊIt isnt > beautiful as it isnt really a key functionality and so I could care > less, but you can stick in text and draw using the cursor keys just > fine. Ê :-) the problems with the onboard software always come from the fact that > the software has been written by non surveyors or by such putting up > with the bear minimum that does the job. on the other hand but > probably relevant, using external data collector these days means > youre not doing very well in the surveying business and whats more, > you wont be doing well. > you can tell your leica guy that he has no idea what he is talking > about. > and youd better save your personal comments for yourself if you dont > wanna read some about you; btw I wouldnt accept your data collector > even as a gift, Id chuck it in the rubbish bin so I dont look like a > looser ;) > cheers, > reth, (surveyor)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I would never choose an onboard system over a portable one. Pretty hard to carry around a total station in your pocket, wouldnt ya think? I just read the review on the DC50 in The American Surveyor magazine. Seems like a pretty good data collector to me. === Subject: DC50 (WAS: Re: Menu Label Builder) posting-account=82unwgoAAABKn0foN-teZr4DLYjqF_TL Gecko/2008030714 Firefox/3.0b4,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > as complicated as your surveying program which I wonder how you miss > to mention? As opposed to someone who constantly says useless, snippy remarks that > dont help anyone? You seem to have gotten more bitter over the past > month or two. Did someone run over your kitten? I was thinking it might be a complete new menu system that would build > menus, control they keys and shift functions, etc. If so, I was > wondering how such a thing fit into 1Kb (and then I would bow to > Raymond and worship his amazing skill), and also what advantages it > would have over the built in menu system which is already so darn > flexible. I think you will find when the discussion is on a) surveying, b) > connecting the calculator to something serially, or c) HPGCC stuff, it > gets mentioned because it is very relevant to the conversation. Not everyone thinks onboard is a good thing. Leicas is the best > onboard, but I still think it is limited. Just a few weeks ago I had > a guy who has been using Leicas onboard for years tell me how much it > sucks and how glad he is to be done with it. This guy is a certified > Leica repair tech and works for a large company that has around 100 > Leicas with everything on up to the top of the line laser > scanners. . . TW PS - just in case youd like to know, the surveying program does have > a simple editor to graphically build menu label graphics. It isnt > beautiful as it isnt really a key functionality and so I could care > less, but you can stick in text and draw using the cursor keys just > fine. :-) the problems with the onboard software always come from the fact that > the software has been written by non surveyors or by such putting up > with the bear minimum that does the job. on the other hand but > probably relevant, using external data collector these days means > youre not doing very well in the surveying business and whats more, > you wont be doing well. > you can tell your leica guy that he has no idea what he is talking > about. > and youd better save your personal comments for yourself if you dont > wanna read some about you; btw I wouldnt accept your data collector > even as a gift, Id chuck it in the rubbish bin so I dont look like a > looser ;) > cheers, > reth, (surveyor)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I would never choose an onboard system over a portable one. Pretty > hard to carry around a total station in your pocket, wouldnt ya > think? I just read the review on the DC50 in The American Surveyor > magazine. Seems like a pretty good data collector to me. Well actually, AFAICT it is pretty hard to carry the DC 50 in your pocket. The casing would require some pretty large pockets (perhaps a jacket pocket would work), unless you are just using the assistant, (which is strictly equivalent to any old 49g+/50g calc running the software.) The (mythical?) field assistant version would probably also fit into a pocket, depending on the exact size of that data cable. (No such product seems to be visible on the site.) Also, while I am no surveyor, I have a few minor nits with the manual (the version online at least). In section COGO Tools, subsection Curve Entry Method, in the figure, the labels for points 7 and 14 seem to be missing. The points are there, but are just not labeled. Perhaps the labels got cut off? Also Section organization, subsection Right Shift Keys, key description for Character Map, it is mentioned that However, any character above ASCII 128 does not appear the same on a PC due to encoding differences. That probably should be above 127 as character 128 is the angle symbol on the calculator, which while perhaps nice for surveying will definitely not transfer correctly. (Further char 127 is worthless and would not transfer well so there is no loss even if that version were interpreted as above (and including) 127). === Subject: Re: DC50 (WAS: Re: Menu Label Builder) posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2008030714 Firefox/3.0b4,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I would never choose an onboard system over a portable one. ÊPretty > hard to carry around a total station in your pocket, wouldnt ya > think? ÊI just read the review on the DC50 in The American Surveyor > magazine. ÊSeems like a pretty good data collector to me. There are some people who find them perfectly suitable. There is something to be said for not having another device. However, like I said earlier Leicas is the only semi-decent on out there. > Well actually, AFAICT it is pretty hard to carry the DC 50 in your > pocket. The casing would require some pretty large pockets (perhaps a Indeed. It was never meant to be pocket sized. It was meant to be able to be run over by a truck and survive (which it does). Weve also shot the screen with a .22 cal rifle hollow point at 100 feet, dropped it 4 stories onto a concrete slab, left it submerged for 30 minutes, and so on. > software.) The (mythical?) field assistant version would probably > also fit into a pocket, depending on the exact size of that data > cable. (No such product seems to be visible on the site.) stock on hand dropped to 0. I put in 10000 so that shouldnt be happening again. Id be happy if it did though. :-) > Also, while I am no surveyor, I have a few minor nits with the manual > (the version online at least). In section COGO Tools, subsection > Curve Entry Method, in the figure, the labels for points 7 and 14 > seem to be missing. The points are there, but are just not labeled. > Perhaps the labels got cut off? Yup. Looks like a case of over-aggressive cropping. Will take note. > description for Character Map, it is mentioned that However, any > character above ASCII 128 does not > appear the same on a PC due to encoding differences. That probably > should be above 127 as character 128 is the angle symbol on the > calculator, which while perhaps nice for surveying will definitely not > transfer correctly. (Further char 127 is worthless and would not > transfer well so there is no loss even if that version were > interpreted as above (and including) 127). That was my fault. I tend to think 0-127 as being 128 numbers and so to use one of those characters thought. TW === Subject: Re: Menu Label Builder posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) as complicated as your surveying program which I wonder how you miss > to mention? As opposed to someone who constantly says useless, snippy remarks that > dont help anyone? ÊYou seem to have gotten more bitter over the past > month or two. ÊDid someone run over your kitten? I was thinking it might be a complete new menu system that would build > menus, control they keys and shift functions, etc. ÊIf so, I was > wondering how such a thing fit into 1Kb (and then I would bow to > Raymond and worship his amazing skill), and also what advantages it > would have over the built in menu system which is already so darn > flexible. I think you will find when the discussion is on a) surveying, b) > connecting the calculator to something serially, or c) HPGCC stuff, it > gets mentioned because it is very relevant to the conversation. Not everyone thinks onboard is a good thing. ÊLeicas is the best > onboard, but I still think it is limited. ÊJust a few weeks ago I had > a guy who has been using Leicas onboard for years tell me how much it > sucks and how glad he is to be done with it. ÊThis guy is a certified > Leica repair tech and works for a large company that has around 100 > Leicas with everything on up to the top of the line laser > scanners. . . TW PS - just in case youd like to know, the surveying program does have > a simple editor to graphically build menu label graphics. ÊIt isnt > beautiful as it isnt really a key functionality and so I could care > less, but you can stick in text and draw using the cursor keys just > fine. Ê :-) the problems with the onboard software always come from the fact that > the software has been written by non surveyors or by such putting up > with the bear minimum that does the job. on the other hand but > probably relevant, using external data collector these days means > youre not doing very well in the surveying business and whats more, > you wont be doing well. > you can tell your leica guy that he has no idea what he is talking > about. > and youd better save your personal comments for yourself if you dont > wanna read some about you; btw I wouldnt accept your data collector > even as a gift, Id chuck it in the rubbish bin so I dont look like a > looser ;) > cheers, > reth, (surveyor)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I would never choose an onboard system over a portable one. Pretty hard to carry around a total station in your pocket, wouldnt ya think? I just read the review on the DC50 in The American Surveyor magazine. Seems like a pretty good data collector to me. === Subject: Re: Menu Label Builder posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) as complicated as your surveying program which I wonder how you miss > to mention? As opposed to someone who constantly says useless, snippy remarks that > dont help anyone? ÊYou seem to have gotten more bitter over the past > month or two. ÊDid someone run over your kitten? I was thinking it might be a complete new menu system that would build > menus, control they keys and shift functions, etc. ÊIf so, I was > wondering how such a thing fit into 1Kb (and then I would bow to > Raymond and worship his amazing skill), and also what advantages it > would have over the built in menu system which is already so darn > flexible. I think you will find when the discussion is on a) surveying, b) > connecting the calculator to something serially, or c) HPGCC stuff, it > gets mentioned because it is very relevant to the conversation. Not everyone thinks onboard is a good thing. ÊLeicas is the best > onboard, but I still think it is limited. ÊJust a few weeks ago I had > a guy who has been using Leicas onboard for years tell me how much it > sucks and how glad he is to be done with it. ÊThis guy is a certified > Leica repair tech and works for a large company that has around 100 > Leicas with everything on up to the top of the line laser > scanners. . . TW PS - just in case youd like to know, the surveying program does have > a simple editor to graphically build menu label graphics. ÊIt isnt > beautiful as it isnt really a key functionality and so I could care > less, but you can stick in text and draw using the cursor keys just > fine. Ê :-) the problems with the onboard software always come from the fact that > the software has been written by non surveyors or by such putting up > with the bear minimum that does the job. on the other hand but > probably relevant, using external data collector these days means > youre not doing very well in the surveying business and whats more, > you wont be doing well. > you can tell your leica guy that he has no idea what he is talking > about. > and youd better save your personal comments for yourself if you dont > wanna read some about you; btw I wouldnt accept your data collector > even as a gift, Id chuck it in the rubbish bin so I dont look like a > looser ;) > cheers, > reth, (surveyor)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I would never choose an onboard system over a portable one. Pretty hard to carry around a total station in your pocket wouldnt ya think? I just read the review on the DC50 in The American Surveyor. Seems like a pretty good data collector to me. === Subject: HP49G+ Turn-on Problem CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Just for reference, in case anyone has the same problem: my HP49G+ started refusing to turn on unless I poked the reset contact 10 times or more, although once it started it was okay. Another symptom was that the display contrast (ON +/-) had no effect, but the contrast would suddenly change itself back and forth. Aha, the display. I pressed down on the bottom of the display and the calc began to turn on normally. Problem solved, if awkwardly. HP50G, here I come. I might get up the nerve to open the 49G+ and see if I can fix it permanently, but for now, turn-on is a two-handed affair. :-) Bill === Subject: Re: HP49G+ Turn-on Problem > Just for reference, in case anyone has the same problem: my HP49G+ > started refusing to turn on unless I poked the reset contact 10 times > or more, although once it started it was okay. Another symptom was > that the display contrast (ON +/-) had no effect, but the contrast > would suddenly change itself back and forth. Aha, the display. I pressed down on the bottom of the display and the > calc began to turn on normally. Problem solved, if awkwardly. HP50G, > here I come. I might get up the nerve to open the 49G+ and see if I > can fix it permanently, but for now, turn-on is a two-handed > affair. :-) Well, um, isnt the 50G built nearly identically to a 49G+? Are the assemblies connected together any better on a 50G than on a 49G+ ? Is this an area which costs money to build better, or can it be made better for nearly nothing, if only a slight bit more know-how and quality control were applied? === Subject: 49G/49G+/50G BUG - Tagged object in negative form posting-account=JTYE5QkAAAC0djgEfdf-RnctrLzElRjd SV1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I found a 49G/49G+/50G bug : << :a:1 -> a << -a EVAL >> EVAL Error: Insufficient memory A tagged object cant be valuated inside algebraic object in its negative form. It works well in the 48G/GX. -d@nt3. Lima/Peru === Subject: Re: 49G/49G+/50G BUG - Tagged object in negative form > found a 49G/49G+/50G bug : > << :a:1 -> a << -a EVAL >> >>EVAL Error: Insufficient memory A tagged object cant be evaluated inside algebraic object > in its negative form. > It works well in the 48G/GX. It works if you change EVAL to ->NUM or first set flag -3, or if you insert ->LST just before EVAL, which replaces CASCOMPEVAL with COMPEVAL (more like the original HP48). === Subject: Re: Programming: Menus and Display > AFAIK, The only publicly available 2.10 is BPs 2.10, which is > available at his web site. You should be able to tell that the rom > running is a beta of version 2.10-7. The only such beta is BPs. Other > 2.10 ROMs do exist, and I would not be surprised if JYA had some, but > AFAICT nobody but HP and apparently BP have the authority to release > ROMs. And HP seems to have an official policy to not release any new > ROMs. Unless somebody can convince HP to let them take over software > development responsibilities for the system (which would also probably > require providing full support for the calculators), it seems quite > likely that no new official ROMs will over be seen. However more > unofficial ROMs might one day be made once all the relevant copyrights > expire, if anybody still cares that far into the future. I have no idea who authorizes whom to do what, but I would guess that the special version (with Geometry and spreadsheet), made for French teachers, might have led to additional sales, which might suit HP very well. The Unsupported Beta ROM 1.19-6 for HP49G (original), available at www.hpcalc.org, was never offered through HP itself, but was a significant improvement over version 1.18, which is the last version HP offers (still available, BTW), and likewise may have improved the bottom line. Of course, you can also actually install 50G version 2.09 or 2.10 into an HP49G, albeit indirectly, via ROMUPLOAD from Emu48/49, thru a serial port, when using an emulator ROM file. === Subject: HP-02 posting-account=QZE-egkAAAA7XQZtaM0zMEUOaYheerjD Gecko/20080311 Firefox/2.0.0.13,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Well, its not exactly a HP, but is an RPN scientific calculator watch. Preliminary info is here for those interested in such a thing: http://www.calcwatch.com/ Dave. === Subject: Re: HP-02 Very cool :-) === Subject: Re: HP49G+ Turn-on Problem posting-account=wcRVPwkAAACV9qEmJuiPuuML0GXuIOZ6 4.90),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Just for reference, in case anyone has the same problem: my HP49G+ > started refusing to turn on unless I poked the reset contact 10 times > or more, although once it started it was okay. ÊAnother symptom was > that the display contrast (ON +/-) had no effect, but the contrast > would suddenly change itself back and forth. Aha, the display. ÊI pressed down on the bottom of the display and the > calc began to turn on normally. ÊProblem solved, if awkwardly. ÊHP50G, > here I come. ÊI might get up the nerve to open the 49G+ and see if I > can fix it permanently, but for now, turn-on is a two-handed > affair. :-) Bill I wonder if the HP49G+ (and the HP50) have the same hardware construction as the original HP48S/X HP48G/GX series? Ive disassembled a couple of these lately, and it seems that over time, the conductive paperlike printed circuit underlay (which the conductive keydomes contact) open circuits after a few years. Also, the point of contact between this underlay and the main pcb, which is done simply by pressure from the aforementioned paper-like pcb simply becomes non-conductive over time; probably due to normal environmental temperature and humidity fluctuations. This is the root cause for the Pressing just below the display while pressing the ON key method of powering up. Ive been considering designing a new/rugged keyboard underlay pcb which would be soldered to the main board (the address lines going to the keyboard are accessible). However, my main concern is how to get the keyboard back together after disassembly. Also, I do not yet know what the long term viability of the dome undersides conductivity. I would appreciate others interest/experiences. TomCee === Subject: Re: HP49G+ Turn-on Problem CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Well, um, isnt the 50G built nearly identically to a 49G+? > Probably, but it would buy me about two years until the next failure. For interest, heres my history of the decline and fall of HP quality: 1973: bought an HP45. It still works. 1996: bought an HP48GX. It was working fine when stolen in 2001. 2001: bought one of the last of the HP48GXs. In two years it began locking up constantly from a memory problem. 2002: bought an HP49G. In two years it got the dreaded Turn-on Problem, but this one was permanent. 2002: bought the last of the HP32SIIs. Though it still works, about three times a year it will turn on with MEMORY CLEAR, for no evident reason. The current HP49G+ is a basket case, but I keep reviving it. A new calc is at the top of the shopping list. Bill === Subject: HP-50g quick reference?? Originator: roberts@athlonx2.gville (Robert Swan) I recently bought an HP-50g. Compared with my trusty 48sx, its dazzlingly fast, has a very clear display, and is full of features. Sadly, also compared with the 48sx, the documentation is abysmal. One thing the SX had, neatly stashed in its soft case, was a complete command summary, listing commands by name, along with their stack effects. As long as you were familiar with the command, this was really handy when programming. It was also helpful spotting less familiar commands so you could get out the reference manual and get to know them. For the 50g, with its >700 commands, this list would be even more useful, even if it wouldnt fit in the case. Has anyone put together such a list for the 50g as a PDF file or some such? Failing that, any suggestions on extracting the complete list of command names from the calculator? Getting CATs output in ASCII would at least save me *some* typing, and would be less error prone too. Have fun, Robert. -- Robert Swan | No, not the antarctic adventurer. swan.r.l@gmail.com | No, not the Canberra porn monger. | Yes, thats right, the boring one. === Subject: Re: HP-50g quick reference?? >I recently bought an HP-50g. Compared with my trusty 48sx, its >dazzlingly fast, has a very clear display, and is full of features. >Sadly, also compared with the 48sx, the documentation is abysmal. One thing the SX had, neatly stashed in its soft case, was a complete >command summary, listing commands by name, along with their stack >effects. As long as you were familiar with the command, this was >really handy when programming. It was also helpful spotting less >familiar commands so you could get out the reference manual and get to >know them. For the 50g, with its >700 commands, this list would be even more >useful, even if it wouldnt fit in the case. Has anyone put together >such a list for the 50g as a PDF file or some such? Failing that, any suggestions on extracting the complete list of >command names from the calculator? Getting CATs output in ASCII >would at least save me *some* typing, and would be less error prone >too. Have fun, Robert. http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=hlp Damir