8466 === Subject: PDL (Program Development Link, HP P/N: 82208-90003) I lost my PDL software disk but I still have my serial cable and HP-48S calculator. Is there somewhere I can get a copy of the DOS PDL software ? === Subject: Re: What SD card? I use a 2GB Sandisk card formatted FAT16 in my 50g. While I won't say there's no turn-on speed difference with and without the card, the calculator is still ready by the time my finger moves from ON to whatever I want to press next. But then the card is nowhere near full. === Subject: Re: HP 35s Stack: Bug? That's exactly what I'm doing -- switching from a 50 to a 35 (I wanted \ stash a lighter calc in my backpack). I think I've gotten the hang of it, though the manual could explain it better (even the full version is kinda vague). Off to read more of the manual, D RPL is not RPN. When you type a number, it is entered directly on the > stack. This means 2 (is already on the stack) ENTER (makes a copy). > Take a look at the part of the manual describing RPN operation. You > will need to take a look at it. I do the same thing when switching > back and forth from the 50 to the 35. Takes a few mins before I stop > doing it. === Subject: x + x square equal any number ??? 3.x + 5.x^2 + 34.x^3 + 24.x^9 = 34234 how can i solve like this questions...can anybody help ?? === Subject: Re: x + x square equal any number ??? >3.x + 5.x^2 + 34.x^3 + 24.x^9 = 34234 how can i solve like this questions...can anybody help ?? On HP 50g: [RightShift] [NUM.SLV] and solve for x. === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators > HP would like to hear what your favorite vintage (no-longer-manufactured) \ HP > calculators are. They have put up a short survey here: http://www.zoomerang.com/Survey/?p=WEB228BU68XY93 Please fill it out and show your support for your favorite \classic\ HP > calculators! > Eric Rechlin Eric, do you know if HP is interested in as many people as possible taking the survey, or just the calc groupies associated with comp.sys.hp48, MoHPC, and their own forum? In other words, why is the survey not more widely distributed over the internets (slahsdot, digg, thinkgeek, wired, et al.)? Only ~800 people have taken the survey so far! Is this what HP wants, or should the survey be distributed as widely as possible to accumulate as much data as possible? Is JYA right? Are they only listening to a small sample? I am not impressed with the low turnout. I do not know if people were encouraged to \pass it along\. I wasn't. Did HP send the survey to any other popular tech sites? I do not even see the survey mentioned on \hp.com/calculators\. PG === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators > Eric, do you know if HP is interested in as many people as possible > taking the survey, or just the calc groupies associated with > comp.sys.hp48, MoHPC, and their own forum? I do not know. > I do not even see the survey mentioned on \hp.com/calculators\. I believe they mentioned it to anyone who called the calculator technical support line, but I don't think there was any other publicity from HP of the \ survey. To my knowledge, the only other publicity at all was my post to this newsgroup, the link on my site, and a post to the HP Museum forum. HP has told me that the survey will be closed now, after being up for a month, so I have now removed the link from my site. Presumably they received the answers they were looking for. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Nosy related question sure how to decipher. For example say I put {-} in the stack and execute Nosy I get the CK2&Dispatch followed by a number of possible arguments with their own specific function. Starting at the top is 2REAL, which simply means two reals and %- is the function. Now, where my confusion begins is right below it. Reading 'Programming in System RPL' I qoute: Each type definition is a bint like this: #nnnnn. Each n is an hexadecimal number representing the object in one position of the stack, according to the table below. Could someone point me in a direction of how to get familiar with the other formats that don't seem to fit the #nnnnn format? I also notice that under the built in BINTS, BINT17 is aka 2REAL. What is #FFFF_, or BINT18 for example. Any help would be appreciated. Jacob === Subject: Re: Nosy related question > sure how to decipher. For example say I put {-} in the stack and > execute Nosy I get the CK2&Dispatch followed by a number of possible > arguments with their own specific function. Starting at the top is > 2REAL, which simply means two reals and %- is the function. Now, > where my confusion begins is right below it. Reading 'Programming in > System RPL' I qoute: Each type definition is a bint like this: > #nnnnn. Each n is an hexadecimal number representing the object in one > position of the stack, according to the table below. Could someone > point me in a direction of how to get familiar with the other formats > that don't seem to fit the #nnnnn format? I also notice that under > the built in BINTS, BINT17 is aka 2REAL. What is #FFFF, or BINT18 > for example. Any help would be appreciated. 2REAL and BINT17 are symbols, each having the same hex value 00011, representing dispatch value 1 on stack level 2 and on stack level 1 (zeros represent either no argument or don't care what type). The following table symbolically summarizes the dispatch codes, in slightly abbreviated (or cryptic :) format: Object Dispatch Type Codes 2 C% 8 ::; E UNIT 5F L[] BF ACP 3 $ 9 ALG 0F ROMP 6F CHR CF FON 4 [] A SYC 1F # 7F COD DF MFO 5 {} B HXS 2F RRP 8F LIB EF EX4 6 ID C GRO 3F %% 9F BKP FF INT Dispatch code hex 1 is represented above by the SysRPL symbol %, used in the syntax of real-number objects, so 00011 represents real on level2, real on level1, thus 2REAL The fact that there are more than 15 object types pretty much makes it impossible to represent all types within one 4-bit hex digit, so what's been done is that hex digit F has to be combined with a preceding hex digit, to form a 2-digit type code 0F thru FF for some objects on a single stack level. FFFF thus represents two type codes, FF and FF which means two Exact Integer type objects (new to HP49/50 series, did not exist in first HP48 series). BINT18 is hex 00012 (real on level 2, complex on level 1). Functions which require objects having 2-digit dispatch codes generally do not require three of those objects as arguments, so a 20-bit bint manages to suffice to express all stack argument sets (even if it didn't, other individual tests could be made later, instead of up front). SYC represents Symbolic class (any of several types), as further explained below. Except for the existence of new object types in the HP49/50 series, original plain text document RPLMAN.DOC, starting on page 63, very lucidly explains Dispatching on Argument Type, including the two-digit codes: http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=rplman.doc http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1743 http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/programming/rplman.zip Old posts never die, Google just files them away http://holyjoe.net/hp/types.png [table by Joe Horn] A brief excerpt from RPLMAN.DOC (page 63) follows [with slight adjustments] ------------------------- A binary integer typei is nominally encoded as follows: #nnnnn ||||| ||||+-- Level 1 argument type |||+--- Level 2 argument type ||+---- Level 3 argument type |+----- Level 4 argument type +------ Level 5 argument type Each n is a hexadecimal digit representing an object type, as shown in the table below. Thus #00011 represents two real numbers; #000A0 indicates a symbolic class object (symb, id, or lam) in level 2 and any type of object in level 1. There are also two-digit object type numbers, ending in F; use of any of these consequently reduces the total number of arguments that can be encoded in a single typei integer. For example, #13F4F represents a real number in level 3, an extended real in level 2, and an extended complex in level 1. The following table shows the hex digit values for each argument type. The column # name shows the object pointer name for the corresponding binary integer that may be used for a single argument function. The Binary Integers chapter contains a list of built-in binary integers that may be used for various common two-argument combinations. Value Argument # name User TYPE ----- ---------------- ------ --------- 0 Any Object any 1 Real Number real 0 2 Complex Number cmp 1 3 Character String str 2 4 Array arry 3,4 5 List list 5 6 Global Name idnt 6 7 Local Name lam 7 8 Secondary seco 8 9 Symbolic symb 9 A Symbolic Class sym 6,7,9 B Hex String hxs 10 C Graphics Object grob 11 D Tagged Object TAGGED 12 E Unit Object unitob 13 0F ROM Pointer 14 1F Binary Integer 20 2F Directory 15 3F Extended Real 21 4F Extended Complex 22 5F Linked Array 23 6F Character 24 7F Code Object 25 8F Library 16 9F Backup 17 AF Library Data 26 BF External object1 27 [ACPTR] CF External object2 30 [Font in 49/50] DF External object3 27 [Minifont in 49/50] EF External object4 -- [?? in 49/50] FF 28 [Integer in 49/50] [End] === Subject: Re: Nosy related question InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > 6 Global Name idnt 6 > 7 Local Name lam 7 [etc] Very nice summary of the dispatch functions, John. Too bad we can't teleport you back as an editor to when RPLMAN was being written. :-) that was supposed to work with either a global (type 6) or a secondary (type 8). The code I used was: CK1NOLASTWD DUPTYPEIDNT? (is it a global name?) SWAP (tuck result out of the way) DUPTYPECOL? (is it a pgm/seco?) BINT3 ROLL (results on levels 1,2) OR (OR them) ITE (run pgm or error msg) If either of the two objects is on level 1, the OR results in a TRUE for the ITE command. I couldn't find any more concise way of doing this. Bill === Subject: Re: Nosy related question posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092414 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > ITE (run pgm or error msg) > If either of the two objects is on level 1, the OR results in a TRUE > for the ITE command. I couldn't find any more concise way of doing > this. Was it the same bit of code for both that would execute, or different bits? If the same, a check and dispatch would be the way to go. TW === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming posting-account=iY7uIQoAAAAuLKgvClKqajiXarQcLhyc Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to wirte some simple program, > like input R, the program calculates the circle area; input L, H, W, > then the program can calculate the surface area, ect. I read the user > menu, but feel too complicated, before I had a HP 42s, the user menu > showed the detailed programming steps, but it was broken. Who is > familiar with 50g programming and can show me a couple of simple > program, I would so appreciate. Welcome. There are several different ways to accomplish this. If you want to enter L, H, and W on the stack and have the program > calculate the surface area of a rectangular box, the simplest approach > would be to define a function: << -> L H W '2*(L*W+L*H+H*W)' > > where << and >> are the program brackets, RightShift +, and -> is > RightShift 0. Or coming from a 42s, you might prefer a stack manipulation program: << 3. DUPN * UNROT * + UNROT * + 2 * > > If you want the program to prompt the user for input, you could do > something like: << > Enter Length INPUT STR- Enter Height INPUT STR- Enter Width INPUT STR- -> L H W '2*(L*W+L*H+H*W)' > > And finally if you want a form to fill in with tagged output: << > Surface Area of Box > { Length: Height: Width: } > { 1. 0. } > { 1 1 1 } > DUP > INFORM > IF > THEN > OBJ-> DROP > -> L H W '2*(L*W+L*H+H*W)' > Area > ->TAG > END > > Hope this points you in the right direction. -wes Or try this: << SURFACE AREA OF BOX: DUP { :L: :H: :W: { 1. 5. } V } INPUT CLLCD 7. FREEZE SWAP 1. DISP DUP 3. DISP OBJ- > 3. DUPN * UNROT * + UNROT * + 2. * :A: OVER + 7. DISP >> reth === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming posting-account=iY7uIQoAAAAuLKgvClKqajiXarQcLhyc Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to wirte some simple program, > like input R, the program calculates the circle area; input L, H, W, > then the program can calculate the surface area, ect. I read the user > menu, but feel too complicated, before I had a HP 42s, the user menu > showed the detailed programming steps, but it was broken. Who is > familiar with 50g programming and can show me a couple of simple > program, I would so appreciate. Try that: Ç SURFACE AREA OF BOX: DUP { :L: :H: :W: { 1. 5. } V } INPUT CLLCD 7. FREEZE SWAP 1. DISP DUP 3. DISP OBJ-> 3. DUPN * UNROT * + UNROT * + 2. * :A: OVER + 7. DISP È Reth === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators Why didn't you just sell the R&D to HP and they could have produced and branded it and a lot Engineer types would have found themselves in a happy state of nerd-varna? What I was expecting pay for a new Qonos would be ago, which was about the same as what the first 35's were going for; in 1973 dollars even! - Greg S. > Hi On 2008-10-18 21:03:44 +1100, reth said: > > May I ask who were the people you were listening to before you started > the Qonos project? > > That's rather easy to answer: Gerald and myself. Then I started to add options that people kept asking for, complexity > increased, cost increased and it went nowhere. -- > They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, > deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) > === Subject: subdirectories on SD card posting-account=aNIMWQoAAAABQC8BtMa46IHzYoCwCjwc Is it possible to remove a subdirectory on an SD card on the 50g? I don't have problems removing files in the subdirectory, just the subdirectory itself. Neither PURGE nor PGDIR have any effect. The built-in filer can't remove the subdirectory either. I can, of course, remove the subdirectory by plugging the card into the reader on my HP laptop, but sometimes that's too much work. I also suppose the same question can be asked about read-only files. TIA kiyoshi === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card calc:no pc: yes > Is it possible to remove a subdirectory on an SD card on the 50g? I > don't have problems removing files in the subdirectory, just the > subdirectory itself. Neither PURGE nor PGDIR have any effect. The > built-in filer can't remove the subdirectory either. I can, of course, remove the subdirectory by plugging the card into > the reader on my HP laptop, but sometimes that's too much work. I also suppose the same question can be asked about read-only files. TIA > kiyoshi === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card > calc:no > pc: yes And Mac: yes. > > Is it possible to remove a subdirectory on an SD card on the 50g? I > don't have problems removing files in the subdirectory, just the > subdirectory itself. Neither PURGE nor PGDIR have any effect. The > built-in filer can't remove the subdirectory either. > > I can, of course, remove the subdirectory by plugging the card into > the reader on my HP laptop, but sometimes that's too much work. > > I also suppose the same question can be asked about read-only files. > > TIA > kiyoshi === Subject: Multi Lingual Pack and TreeBrowser and the installation procedure I'd like to inform you that I have merged the TreeBrowser with my translations (Spanish, Italian and French) of the HP 50G into a single product. The product is available for the English elementary form of the 50G and in Spanish, Italian and French and contains - Language Pack (not for the English version) which translates the whole machine either into Spanish, Italian and French - TreeBrowser - TreeBrowserBuilder - Data set of the Equation Library (in the same language as the Language Pack) - Data set of the most common formulas of economics (in the same language as the Language Pack) - SD-card - Extensive documentation, totaling more than 50 pages for each language on the SD-card Also I can offer a drop-in license. If you already have a SD card and do not want another one just send me your card with a stamped return envelope. Please contact me by mail for details in this case. The software is copy protected. But it is now possible to install the software on three different machines. So you can use the software with one calculator at home and with one at work, for example. And, of course, I will exchange the card at now cost (except shipping & handling) if one of your three calculator has to be exchanged for some reason. (In this case you have to send the card to me and I will exchange it.) Those who like to try out the product before buying will find ready to use EMU49 Document (*.E49) at the bottom of my homepage http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de. The product is available in the U.S., for example at Eric's commercial site, http://commerce.hpcalc.org/multilingual.php. Andreas === Subject: principal value of ARG(z=x+y*i) posting-account=zsTFyQoAAAAS6nsjRFf-x7YwaTR_E_kN Gecko/2008091620 Firefox/3.0.2,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Why HP 50g uses this definition of principal value of ARG(z) of a complex number z: (ARG(z=x+y*i)-> ATAN(y/x)+(1-x/ABS(x))*pi/2? -pi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number Ex. ARG(-1-1*i)=(5/4)*pi instead of -(3/4)*pi Simone. === Subject: Re: euler's identity > In what manual and where is this described? SINCOS is seen in the TRIG menu on page 56 of the HP50G User Manual, is described in detail on page 4-67 of the HP50G AUR, and of course in built-in CAS HELP. Although there is a total of 1724 fully indexed and searchable PDF pages of manuals for the HP50G, explaining absolutely everything (how many of which have you read?), the answers to all possible questions that could ever be proposed are not included, nor are any spoons nor feeding tubes supplied for force-feeding all knowledge and all-knowingness into any student's head. I believe it's much the same situation with even the most advanced mathematics software for computers. Now that computers (or is it iPhones) are taking the place of calculators, do they now enable students to know everything without having to do anything? -[ ]- === Subject: Re: euler's identity <5i0uf4dsm0q6g0ie36d0lmmvrol8s4kt0d@4ax.com> posting-account=7ypjXwoAAAA6Phe0dE2NwavGiqMYGDdw Presto/2.1.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > In what manual and where is this described? SINCOS is seen in the TRIG menu on page 56 of the HP50G User Manual, > is described in detail on page 4-67 of the HP50G AUR, > and of course in built-in CAS HELP. Although there is a total of 1724 fully indexed and searchable > PDF pages of manuals for the HP50G, explaining absolutely everything > (how many of which have you read?), > the answers to all possible questions that could ever be proposed > are not included, nor are any spoons nor feeding tubes supplied > for force-feeding all knowledge and all-knowingness into any student's head. I believe it's much the same situation > with even the most advanced mathematics software for computers. Now that computers (or is it iPhones) are taking the place > of calculators, do they now enable students to know everything > without having to do anything? -[ ]- faster this way :) Christoph === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators > What's left of the calculator market is in education. Engineering can get > much more powerful solution through dedicated device, or simply the right > software for a PDA That's a fair answer, although to really make sense I'd like to see that dedicated device or right software for a PDA. I suppose that Qonos was targeting that market, to some extent. I also don't see that much extra time required (during product development) to give the calculator fanatics/hard-core hobbyists something to chew on while simultaneously addressing the mass market demands. (And HP has done this with the HP 20b, IMO.) > And worse, they aren't even good at it... I will never recommend a HP PC to > any of my friend or consider them for work. I agree about the desktop PCs, although the business line HP laptops that they obtained from Compaq are still pretty good, IMO. ---Joel === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Hi > > On 2008-10-19 22:59:14 +1100, Martin Krischik > said: >> I disagree here. HP should be trying to find out what they did right >> then and why they are not as successful now. > > The market has changed. > People aren't looking for the same products or solutions these days. > > Who can really believe that resurecting a product that was sold 20 years > ago will actually be commercially successful. No one. As Wes pointed out we: Take what was good and transport it into the current age. at least a 32 digit alphanumeric display. And a hundred programming steps are not all that hip. > Someone mentioned earlier that customers will be will willing to pay > twice more for a vintage calculator compare to a new one. > Sure, but how many people ? I can order a TI 36 thru my company - if I wanted on. But I already got one from the last company I worked for. Colleges got them on there desk as well. The TI 36 also was constantly improved. So they must sell - and the evolutionary improvements TI made won't be so expensive as a complete redesign. However - as I now knew: The HP 16c is a dam side more helpful to computer science. I see two other problems: 1) The HP 16c (as most of the voyager series) has been de-commissioned long ago and only the HP 12c went thrue evolutionary improvements. As you pointed out: HP would need to redesign them (expensive). 2) HP is off the scene - at least here in Europe. Go into a Media Markt or a department store - you get Casio [1] and -maybe- TI. HP - no where to see. Want HP? - go to Amanzon or specialist pocket calculator mail order companies. Martin [1] Casio realy has the edge here: Made in US - ups what am I talking about! All is made in China of course. Designed in US / Designed in Japan is one for us - no national pride comes into play. However HP is a well known brand name and could be different in that respect - if only they get there act together. - -- Martin Krischik krischik@me.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJACb0ijwKaHyem9cRAsBWAJwP7YW+g6DLA4E16Or7LiNYbbGirgCaAmM1 uNnbev9UXx/XstqvwWosixs= =i0hI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators <48fe965c$0$6996$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=aJhvMAoAAABqICGF80eSUn6d3D9SANQE Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Who do you think they *should* be listening to? This is an easy question to answer: TI and Casio have shown what's the > way to go: > teachers. Well, then as a teacher, I guess I should speak up. I did the survey thing, selecting the 41C as my favorite. But when I got to the part where it asked how much I'd pay to buy one, I realized that I didn't want to buy one at all. What I really want is for HP to learn from their past, but apply it to the future. I'd like a modern calculator with modern features (display, memory, OS) with some of the positive features that made past ones great (tactile feel, reasonable quality, good key layout, easy to read keys and display, good documentation, ...). After having used RPL graphing calculators for the past 20 years, I really don't want to go back to a single line, 4 stack RPN calculator. -wes === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators >: > I did the survey thing, selecting the 41C as my favorite. But when I > got to the part where it asked how much I'd pay to buy one, I realized > that I didn't want to buy one at all. What I really want is for HP to > learn from their past, but apply it to the future. I'd like a modern calculator with modern features (display, memory, > OS) with some of the positive features that made past ones great > (tactile feel, reasonable quality, good key layout, easy to read keys > and display, good documentation, ...). After having used RPL graphing > calculators for the past 20 years, I really don't want to go back to a > single line, 4 stack RPN calculator. Right on. Martin -- === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators How about Qonos/Xpander/Nspire/Classmate/HP-200LX ? OR iPaq Phone Edition with slide-in calc keyboard EMU48 + > Who do you think they *should* be listening to? >> This is an easy question to answer: TI and Casio have shown what's the >> way to go: >> teachers. Well, then as a teacher, I guess I should speak up. I did the survey thing, selecting the 41C as my favorite. But when I > got to the part where it asked how much I'd pay to buy one, I realized > that I didn't want to buy one at all. What I really want is for HP to > learn from their past, but apply it to the future. I'd like a modern calculator with modern features (display, memory, > OS) with some of the positive features that made past ones great > (tactile feel, reasonable quality, good key layout, easy to read keys > and display, good documentation, ...). After having used RPL graphing > calculators for the past 20 years, I really don't want to go back to a > single line, 4 stack RPN calculator. -wes === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators JYA, I fully support your comment : the current market for HP calculators is now the 100 or so people following this newsgroup for years like me, using HP calculators for 35 years and too old to go elsewhere for their daily basic needs. When it is not so basic, I use Excel. JYA a .8ecrit : > On 2008-10-16 01:37:33 +1100, Eric Rechlin said: > >> HP would like to hear what your favorite vintage >> (no-longer-manufactured) HP >> calculators are. They have put up a short survey here: >> http://www.zoomerang.com/Survey/?p=WEB228BU68XY93 >> Please fill it out and show your support for your favorite classic HP >> calculators! > > I really think HP is listening to the wrong people regarding what their > next product should be. > > It seems that the only people they are talking to are people who were HP > users back in the 80s through events like the HPCC conference. > > Sure, HP made some great stuff back then, but really how many people are > likely going to buy a revamp of a HP15C, a 41CX other than the 100 > people following this newsgroup. > > Yet, everytime I attend the conference that's what the people there will > ask for, and unfortunately HP is listening. > > We be gaining market share that way. === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators > Who do you think they *should* be listening to? > This is an easy question to answer: TI and Casio have shown what's the > way to go: > teachers. Well, then as a teacher, I guess I should speak up. I did the survey thing, selecting the 41C as my favorite. But when I > got to the part where it asked how much I'd pay to buy one, I realized > that I didn't want to buy one at all. What I really want is for HP to > learn from their past, but apply it to the future. I'd like a modern calculator with modern features (display, memory, > OS) with some of the positive features that made past ones great > (tactile feel, reasonable quality, good key layout, easy to read keys > and display, good documentation, ...). After having used RPL graphing > calculators for the past 20 years, I really don't want to go back to a > single line, 4 stack RPN calculator. -wes I was wondering how difficult it would be to make a calculator that had LCD key labels in lieu of printed ones. I have always liked USER mode on the HP 48 and 49 series but unless I was using a key overlay (HP 48), it proved difficult to remember all of the key assignments. === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators > I was wondering how difficult it would be to make a calculator > that had LCD key labels in lieu of printed ones. There is an OLED PC Keyboard of offer - if you want all 103 PC keys with OLED then it cost >Û1000,--. http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ Also have a look at there tactus concept: http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-tactus/ I believe that touch screens have the advantage here. Also see: http://uiq3.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Office/FX-602P/QVGA#active_keyboa rd I just wonder why I am the only emulator developer who got that space saving idea. At least I don't know any other emulator which supports an active keyboard. Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators <48fe965c$0$6996$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <4901623b$1@news.post.ch> posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Oct 24, 1:50am, Martin Krischik I was wondering how difficult it would be to make a calculator > that had LCD key labels in lieu of printed ones. There is an OLED PC Keyboard of offer - if you want all 103 PC keys with > OLED then it cost >Û1000,--. http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ Also have a look at there tactus concept: http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-tactus/ I believe that touch screens have the advantage here. Also see: http://uiq3.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Office/FX-602P/QVGA#active... I just wonder why I am the only emulator developer who got that space > saving idea. At least I don't know any other emulator which supports an > active keyboard. > Martin -- > mailto://krisc...@users.sourceforge.net > Ada programming at:http://ada.krischik.com P.S. I am just beginning to learn Java. I have the NetBeans 6.1 on my PC. Should I be using Java ME if I want to write applications for mobile devices? === Subject: JavaME [Was: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators] <48f98f15$0$13233$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <48fe965c$0$6996$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <4901623b$1@news.post.ch> Am 24.10.2008, 12:09 Uhr, schrieb : > P.S. I am just beginning to learn Java. I have the > NetBeans 6.1 on my PC. Should I be using > Java ME if I want to write applications for > mobile devices? Well, you could read my rationale why I used JavaME: http://uiq3.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Office/FX-602P/JavaME My main rationale are the short product cycles - especialy with Smartphones. You are likely to replace the device every 2 to 4 years and you want to take your home made applications with you. Another helpfull thing is the ability to create dual platform systems. Debugging on mobile devices is a pain in the bud. In the end it was easier to create a normal desktop version of the FX-602P Simulator, do debugging there and then just create the mobile version on the side line. See: http://uiq3.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Office/FX-602P/MVC And since this is the forum for calculator fanatics you should also read: http://uiq3.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Office/FX-602P/Diff#Arithmetic_Li braries === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators > I was wondering how difficult it would be to make a calculator > that had LCD key labels in lieu of printed ones. There is an OLED PC Keyboard of offer - if you want all 103 PC keys with > OLED then it cost >Û1000,--. http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ Also have a look at there tactus concept: http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-tactus/ I believe that touch screens have the advantage here. Also see: http://uiq3.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Office/FX-602P/QVGA#active... I just wonder why I am the only emulator developer who got that space > saving idea. At least I don't know any other emulator which supports an > active keyboard. > Martin -- > mailto://krisc...@users.sourceforge.net > Ada programming at:http://ada.krischik.com Martin, I really like the Optimus Tactus keyboard! I think it is an excellent idea because a person could utilize the same keyboard for a broad range of applications. Also, since we all have different size fingers and hand spans, it would be ergonomically sound. Concerning calculator applications, such a keyboard might not be practical for industrial or outdoor use where gloves might be used. Mark === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators <48fe965c$0$6996$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > On Oct 24, 1:50am, Martin Krischik > I was wondering how difficult it would be to make a calculator > > that had LCD key labels in lieu of printed ones. > There is an OLED PC Keyboard of offer - if you want all 103 PC keys with > OLED then it cost >Û1000,--. >http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ > Also have a look at there tactus concept: >http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-tactus/ > I believe that touch screens have the advantage here. Also see: >http://uiq3.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Office/FX-602P/QVGA#active... > I just wonder why I am the only emulator developer who got that space > saving idea. At least I don't know any other emulator which supports an > active keyboard. > Martin > -- > mailto://krisc...@users.sourceforge.net > Ada programming at:http://ada.krischik.com Martin, I really like the Optimus Tactus keyboard! I think it is an > excellent idea because a person could utilize the same > keyboard for a broad range of applications. Also, since > we all have different size fingers and hand spans, it > would be ergonomically sound. Concerning calculator > applications, such a keyboard might not be practical > for industrial or outdoor use where gloves might be > used. > Mark- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - P.S. I am just beginning to learn Java. I have NetBeans 6.1 on my PC. Should I be using Java ME if I want to write applications for mobile devices? === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators paper ink is the key for keys... > Who do you think they *should* be listening to? > This is an easy question to answer: TI and Casio have shown what's the > way to go: > teachers. Well, then as a teacher, I guess I should speak up. I did the survey thing, selecting the 41C as my favorite. But when I > got to the part where it asked how much I'd pay to buy one, I realized > that I didn't want to buy one at all. What I really want is for HP to > learn from their past, but apply it to the future. I'd like a modern calculator with modern features (display, memory, > OS) with some of the positive features that made past ones great > (tactile feel, reasonable quality, good key layout, easy to read keys > and display, good documentation, ...). After having used RPL graphing > calculators for the past 20 years, I really don't want to go back to a > single line, 4 stack RPN calculator. -wes I was wondering how difficult it would be to make a calculator that had LCD key labels in lieu of printed ones. I have always liked USER mode on the HP 48 and 49 series but unless I was using a key overlay (HP 48), it proved difficult to remember all of the key assignments. === Subject: HP 50g simple programming posting-account=iOmfpgoAAABo05oWDDJweprpx4VPlnCT .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to wirte some simple program, like input R, the program calculates the circle area; input L, H, W, then the program can calculate the surface area, ect. I read the user menu, but feel too complicated, before I had a HP 42s, the user menu showed the detailed programming steps, but it was broken. Who is familiar with 50g programming and can show me a couple of simple program, I would so appreciate. === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming ) > I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to wirte some simple program, > like input R, the program calculates the circle area; input L, H, W, > then the program can calculate the surface area, ect. I read the user > menu, but feel too complicated, before I had a HP 42s, the user menu > showed the detailed programming steps, but it was broken. Who is > familiar with 50g programming and can show me a couple of simple > program, I would so appreciate. Welcome. There are several different ways to accomplish this. If you want to enter L, H, and W on the stack and have the program calculate the surface area of a rectangular box, the simplest approach would be to define a function: << -> L H W '2*(L*W+L*H+H*W)' >> where << and >> are the program brackets, RightShift +, and -> is RightShift 0. Or coming from a 42s, you might prefer a stack manipulation program: << 3. DUPN * UNROT * + UNROT * + 2 * >> If you want the program to prompt the user for input, you could do something like: << Enter Length INPUT STR-> Enter Height INPUT STR-> Enter Width INPUT STR-> -> L H W '2*(L*W+L*H+H*W)' >> And finally if you want a form to fill in with tagged output: << Surface Area of Box { Length: Height: Width: } { 1. 0. } { 1 1 1 } DUP INFORM IF THEN OBJ-> DROP -> L H W '2*(L*W+L*H+H*W)' Area ->TAG END >> Hope this points you in the right direction. -wes === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to wirte some simple program, > like input R, the program calculates the circle area; input L, H, W, > then the program can calculate the surface area, ect. I read the user > menu, but feel too complicated, before I had a HP 42s, the user menu > showed the detailed programming steps, but it was broken. Who is > familiar with 50g programming and can show me a couple of simple > program, I would so appreciate. Calculate area of circle: area = pi * r^2 On the HP 50: << SQ 3.14159265359 * Area ->TAG >> Store the program in a variable named AREA: 1. Open program delimiters with rt. shift << >>. Look above the [+] key. 2. Type in the program. 3. Press [ENTER] to place program on the stack. 4. Press the [ ' O] key. It is the key with MTRW EQW above it. 5. Type in AREA then [ENTER]. 6. Press the [STO] key to store the program. 7. To use the program enter a number in stack level one and then press the soft key below the menu label AREA. Example: Input: 1: 5.00 Output: 1: Area:78.54 8. Go to [CONST] in the MTH menu and then [3.14] to get pi. 9. Enter 2 FIX to display two places after the decimal point. Note: I'm using an hp 49g+ so if any keys are different from your hp 50 I apologize in advance. Calculate surface area of rectangular prism: 2*L*W + 2*L*H + 2*W*H << 3 DUPN * 2 * @ Face A 5 ROLLD * 2 * @ Face B 4 ROLLD * 2 * @ Face C + + Area ->TAG @ Area >> Note: @ begins a comment and is not part of the program. It is for documentation only. Example: Input: 3: 22 @ Length 2: 16 @ Width 1: 11 @ Height Output: 1: Area:1,540.00 Mark === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming > I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to write some simple program, > like input R, the program calculates the circle area; > input L, H, W, then the program can calculate the surface area, etc. All things representable by formulas can be calculated directly using the numeric solver (just as on the HP42S), and you can save a set of your own equations, then choose any one to solve (for any variable, not just calculating one particular variable from the others); for example, in RPN mode: 'A=pi*R^2' 'CIRCA' STO 'A=(L*H+H*W+W*L)*2' 'BOXA' STO << Choose formula 9 TVARS 1 CHOOSE { STEQ 30 MENU } IFT >> 'MYEQS' STO The 'MYEQS' program chooses any formula in the current directory, then starts the menu-based solver (like that of the HP42S). You can also just start the form-based numeric solver (Right-shift NUM.SLV Solve Equation) and choose an equation using the form, rather than using a program. A slight expansion of the 'MYEQS' program could permit navigating through a directory tree, as well as picking equations from a single directory. Solving equations like this will store additional variables named in the formulas, containing numeric data; when you no longer need to save any such variables, you can purge them all from the current directory, plus any left-over current equation(s) and solver data using: << { 0 28 } TVARS { EQ Mpar } + PURGE >> 'PGEQ' STO Numeric values with attached units (e.g. 3.2 cm) may be included in this clean-up by expanding the list of object types to { 0 13 28 } All of the above works in all HP48G/49G/50G series. === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming > I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to wirte some simple program, > like input R, the program calculates the circle area; input L, H, W, > then the program can calculate the surface area, ect. I read the user > menu, but feel too complicated, before I had a HP 42s, the user menu > showed the detailed programming steps, but it was broken. Who is > familiar with 50g programming and can show me a couple of simple > program, I would so appreciate. Calculate area of circle: area = pi * r^2 On the HP 50: << SQ 3.14159265359 * Area ->TAG >> Store the program in a variable named AREA: 1. Open program delimiters with rt. shift << >>. Look above the [+] key. 2. Type in the program. 3. Press [ENTER] to place program on the stack. 4. Press the [ ' O] key. It is the key with MTRW EQW above it. 5. Type in AREA then [ENTER]. 6. Press the [STO] key to store the program. 7. To use the program enter a number in stack level one and then press the soft key below the menu label AREA. Example: Input: 1: 5.00 Output: 1: Area:78.54 8. Go to [CONST] in the MTH menu and then [3.14] to get pi. 9. Enter 2 FIX to display two places after the decimal point. 10. I'm using an hp 49g+ so if any keys are different from your hp 50 I apologize in advance. Calculate surface area of rectangular prism: 2*L*W + 2*L*H + 2*W*H << 3 DUPN * 2 * @ Face A 5 ROLLD * 2 * @ Face B 4 ROLLD * 2 * @ Face C + + Area ->TAG @ Area >> Note: @ begins a comment and is not part of the program. It is for documentation only. Example: Input: 3: 22 @ Length 2: 16 @ Width 1: 11 @ Height Output: 1: Area:1,540.00 Mark === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming posting-account=v6m75AoAAAAgp3vyiLFAfyqmfMcXEPkm Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Simple example program for area of a circle: << Pi SWAP 2 ^ * EVAL>> ENTER AREA STO (There you store your program into AREA variable) Then just put R on the stack and press the corresponding softkey to execute the AREA program. Another way: << -> R 'Pi*R^2' EVAL>> ENTER ENTER Again, just put R on the stack and press the corresponding softkey to execute the AREA program. === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to wirte some simple program, > like input R, the program calculates the circle area; input L, H, W, > then the program can calculate the surface area, ect. I read the user > menu, but feel too complicated, before I had a HP 42s, the user menu > showed the detailed programming steps, but it was broken. Who is > familiar with 50g programming and can show me a couple of simple > program, I would so appreciate. EQNLIB (libraries 226 and 227) came with the calculator. For your problems, use Plane Geometry and Solid Geometry. Enter in the known values and the tell the calculator which variable to solve for. Otherwise, read Chapter 21 on the 50g User's Guide (the PDF) for information about UserRPL programming. === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming > I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to wirte some simple program, > like input R, the program calculates the circle area; input L, H, W, > then the program can calculate the surface area, ect. I read the user > menu, but feel too complicated, before I had a HP 42s, the user menu > showed the detailed programming steps, but it was broken. Who is > familiar with 50g programming and can show me a couple of simple > program, I would so appreciate. Welcome. There are several different ways to accomplish this. In the programs below, -> is the RightShift 0 character. If you want to enter L, H, and W on the stack and have the program calculate the surface area of a rectangular box, the simplest approach would be to define a function: << -> L H W '2*(L*W+L*H+H*W)' >> Or coming from a 42s, you might prefer a stack manipulation program: << 3. DUPN * UNROT * + UNROT * + 2 * >> If you want the program to prompt the user for input, you could do something like: << Enter Length INPUT STR-> Enter Height INPUT STR-> Enter Width INPUT STR-> -> L H W '2*(L*W+L*H+H*W)' >> And finally if you want a form to fill in with tagged output: << Surface Area of Box { Length: Height: Width: } { 1. 0. } { 1 1 1 } DUP INFORM IF THEN OBJ-> DROP -> L H W '2*(L*W+L*H+H*W)' END Area ->TAG >> Hope this points you in the right direction. -wes === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to wirte some simple program, > like input R, the program calculates the circle area; input L, H, W, > then the program can calculate the surface area, ect. I read the user > menu, but feel too complicated, before I had a HP 42s, the user menu > showed the detailed programming steps, but it was broken. Who is > familiar with 50g programming and can show me a couple of simple > program, I would so appreciate. Calculate area of circle: area = pi * r^2 On HP 50: << SQ 3.14159265359 * Area ->TAG >> Store the program in a variable named AREA: 1. Open program delimiters with rt. shift << >>. Look above the [+] key. 2. Type in the program. 3. Press [ENTER] to place program on the stack. 4. Press the [ ' O] key. It is the key with MTRW EQW above it. 5. Type in AREA then [ENTER]. 6. Press the [STO] key to store the program. 7. To use the program enter a number in stack level one and then press the soft key below the menu label AREA. Example: Input: 1: 5.00 Output: 1: Area:78.54 8. Go to [CONST] in the MTH menu and then [3.14] to get pi. 9. Enter 2 FIX to display two places after the decimal point. 10. I'm using an hp 49g+ so if any keys are different from your hp 50 I apologize in advance. === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming Well, the 42s is programmed in RPN, the 50G in UserRPL. That's a big difference. Get yourself the HP 49G+ Advanced User's Reference Manual (AUR) in pdf for download. Programming in UserRPL can still be very simple: Having value for height, width and length on the stack, you can use this program to have the resulting volume on stack level 1: << -> H W L << H W L * *>>> << >> being keyed in by [Right Shift] [+] and -> by [Right Shift][0] Have fun! GeorgeBailey === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming > Well, the 42s is programmed in RPN, the 50G in UserRPL. That's a big > difference. Get yourself the HP 49G+ Advanced User's Reference Manual (AUR) in pdf for > download. Programming in UserRPL can still be very simple: Having value for height, width and length on the stack, you can use this > program to have the resulting volume on stack level 1: << -> H W L << H W L * *>>> or just << * * >> inputting r and getting 2 pi r << 2 * pi * ->NUM @ ensure symbolic pi is numeric >> pi is [Left-Shift] [SPC] > << >> being keyed in by [Right Shift] [+] > and > -> by [Right Shift][0] Have fun! GeorgeBailey === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming > or just << * * >> I seriously question the need for a program in this case ;-) By the way, you can download the AUR from hpcalc.org at http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/misc/hp49gpaur.zip with many programming examples. George === Subject: Storing a variable with integer value to FLASH :2: area of HP50g posting-account=bJYOBQoAAABXgdZt2XnskyngyDGYdlOu .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) HELP, I need code to show me how to store a value to the Flash memory... the following code does not work: INPUT ACTIVATION CODE { :REGNUM=?: { 2 0 } } INPUT OBJ-> :2: REGNUM STO === Subject: Re: Storing a variable with integer value to FLASH :2: area of HP50g > HELP, I need code to show me how to store a value to the Flash > memory... the following code does not work: > INPUT ACTIVATION CODE > { > :REGNUM=?: > { 2 0 } } > INPUT OBJ-> DTAG > :2: REGNUM DUP PURGE > STO === Subject: Re: ln(exp(x)) does not always simplify, but why? > Numerically, ln(exp(i)) returns (1.15e-14,1) which appears to be > (0,1) with roundoff errors. Should I just round these results manually > or is there a suggested way to work with them to have had the results > come out as would be expected? Is this just accuracy limitations of > exp() and ln() functions showing themselves? > Ed Sutton, III These are not accuracy limitations of the EXP and LN functions specifically. It just shows HP's philosophy on rounding. HP calculators have algorithms to perform functions to 15-digit accuracy and then round them to 12 digits for display. Unlike some other brands, the HP's do not keep those 3 digits as guard digits -- instead, the next calculation is performed with only those 12 digits (unless you are using eXtended reals or the LongFloat library). An example method to gauge calculator accuracy is to take TAN(355/226) in radians. The fraction 355/113 is very close to pi (it is the 4th convergent in the continued fraction expansion of pi [3;7,15,1]), and since the tangent function shoots to +/- infinity around pi/2, TAN(355/226) = -7,497,258.1853... is very large in absolute value. The HP48 series calculates TAN(355/226) as -7497089.06508, which appears to be an accuracy error. But it is not taking the tangent of 355/226. Instead, it is taking the tangent of (355/226 to 12 decimal places), or 1.57079646018 radians. Turns out that TAN(1.57079646018) = -7,497,089.065076... so the HP48 series is DEAD ON! (Try this with the TI-89 and you will be disappointed with a result of -7,497,089.2550967 -- here the TI-89 gives more significant figures than the HP48, but only 7 out of the 14 digits are correct.) S.C. === Subject: Re: ln(exp(x)) does not always simplify, but why? posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Numerically, ln(exp(i)) returns (1.15e-14,1) which appears to be > (0,1) with roundoff errors. Should I just round these results manually > or is there a suggested way to work with them to have had the results > come out as would be expected? Is this just accuracy limitations of > exp() and ln() functions showing themselves? > Ed Sutton, III These are not accuracy limitations of the EXP and LN functions specifically. It just shows HP's philosophy on rounding. HP calculators have algorithms to perform functions to 15-digit accuracy and then round them to 12 digits for display. Unlike some other brands, the HP's do not keep those 3 digits as guard digits -- instead, the next calculation is performed with only those 12 digits (unless you are using eXtended reals or the LongFloat library). An example method to gauge calculator accuracy is to take TAN(355/226) in radians. The fraction 355/113 is very close to pi (it is the 4th convergent in the continued fraction expansion of pi [3;7,15,1]), and since the tangent function shoots to +/- infinity around pi/2, TAN(355/226) = -7,497,258.1853... is very large in absolute value. The HP48 series calculates TAN(355/226) as -7497089.06508, which appears to be an accuracy error. But it is not taking the tangent of 355/226. Instead, it is taking the tangent of (355/226 to 12 decimal places), or 1.57079646018 radians. Turns out that TAN(1.57079646018) = -7,497,089.065076... so the HP48 series is DEAD ON! (Try this with the TI-89 and you will be disappointed with a result of -7,497,089.2550967 -- here the TI-89 gives more significant figures than the HP48, but only 7 out of the 14 digits are correct.) S.C. === Subject: Re: ln(exp(x)) does not always simplify, but why? <%nqJk.80027$_03.28192@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi> posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Oct 15, 2:20pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > I was looking for how to handle complex variables on my hp50g and in > the search opened up science and engineering mathematics with the > hp49g vol. 1 to chapter 5. Not finding what I was after, I was still > enjoying going through the information instead of just moving the > search on. > While reading on page 65 in the expanding ln(z) section, it is > mentioned that ln(exp(i*theta)) does not get simplified to i*theta and > has the user manually edit it to such. I experimented a bit and found > that any case involving a complex part in the exponent does not > simplify if the inverse functions are in the order of ln(exp()) but > does if ln is in the inside. It does simplify okay if working with > reals. > When working with variables, the CASDIR directory contains the list > REALASSUME; any variables in that list will let the expression > simplify when in complex mode. I thought I have read about the > contents of that directory, but I do not recall where. Is there a > different way to keep a variable to always be interpreted as complex > other than both going to complex mode 'and' keeping it out of the real > list? > What is the mathematical reason for not simplifying ln(exp(x)) > unless 'x' is handled as a variable of type real. Is the book's manual > edit correct or mathematically faulty in some cases; is there any > point at which it is undefined or causes other issues? > Numerically, ln(exp(i)) returns (1.15e-14,1) which appears to be > (0,1) with roundoff errors. Should I just round these results manually > or is there a suggested way to work with them to have had the results > come out as would be expected? Is this just accuracy limitations of > exp() and ln() functions showing themselves > Ed Sutton, III EPSX0 > IF less than EPS in CASDIR THEN eXchange it to zero END -function EPS defaults to 1e-10, but like almost everything else on the calculator, you can customize it to your liking. (System flag -54 toggles between Tiny element --> 0 (cleared) and Use tiny element (set). It does not seem to affect the EPSX0 command. Any thoughts?) S.C. === Subject: Re: ln(exp(x)) does not always simplify, but why? Tiny elements refers to array operations only EPSX0 is a separate CAS functions and yes, you can use some other value for EPS in CASDIR X > EPSX0 > IF less than EPS in CASDIR THEN eXchange it to zero END -function EPS defaults to 1e-10, but like almost everything else on the calculator, you can customize it to your liking. (System flag -54 toggles between Tiny element --> 0 (cleared) and Use tiny element (set). It does not seem to affect the EPSX0 command. Any thoughts?) S.C. === Subject: Re: ln(exp(x)) does not always simplify, but why? posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Numerically, ln(exp(i)) returns (1.15e-14,1) which appears to be > (0,1) with roundoff errors. Should I just round these results manually > or is there a suggested way to work with them to have had the results > come out as would be expected? Is this just accuracy limitations of > exp() and ln() functions showing themselves? > Ed Sutton, III These are not accuracy limitations of the EXP and LN functions specifically. It just shows HP's philosophy on rounding. HP calculators have algorithms to perform functions to 15-digit accuracy and then round them to 12 digits for display. Unlike some other brands, the HP's do not keep those 3 digits as guard digits -- instead, the next calculation is performed with only those 12 digits (unless you are using eXtended reals or the LongFloat library). An example method to gauge calculator accuracy is to take TAN(355/226) in radians. The fraction 355/113 is very close to pi (it is the 4th convergent in the continued fraction expansion of pi [3;7,15,1]), and since the tangent function shoots to +/- infinity around pi/2, TAN(355/226) = -7,497,258.1853... is very large in absolute value. The HP48 series calculates TAN(355/226) as -7497089.06508, which appears to be an accuracy error. But it is not taking the tangent of 355/226. Instead, it is taking the tangent of (355/226 to 12 decimal places), or 1.57079646018 radians. Turns out that TAN(1.57079646018) = -7,497,089.065076... so the HP48 series is DEAD ON! (Try this with the TI-89 and you will be disappointed with a result of -7,497,089.2550967 -- here the TI-89 gives more significant figures than the HP48, but only 7 out of the 14 digits are correct.) S.C. === Subject: HP 50g simple programming, additonal info posting-account=iOmfpgoAAABo05oWDDJweprpx4VPlnCT .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to write some simple program, like input R, the program calculates the circle area; input L, H, W, then the program can calculate the surface area, etc. I read the user menu, but feel too complicated, before I had a HP 42s, the user menu showed the detailed programming steps, but it was broken. Who is familiar with 50g programming and can show me a couple of simple program, I would so appreciate. Additional info: I'm just junior hp user. The purpose I write these programs is, sometimes I need to recall these programs using different input value but using same math formula, so I can save many times. When I used HP 42s and called the program, system would ask 'x?', I input x value, then ask 'y?' , I input y value, then ask 'z?' Éthe pgm would be executed and got the answer. The HP 50g can do the same thing ? How it works ? === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming, additonal info > The purpose I write these programs is, sometimes I need to recall > these programs using different input value but using same math > formula, so I can save many times. When I used HP 42s and called the > program, system would ask 'x?', I input x value, then ask 'y?' , I > input y value, then ask 'z?' Éthe pgm would be executed and got the > answer. The HP 50g can do the same thing ? How it works ? One previous answer showed how you can keep using INPUT commands, but you then have to write a complete program for every calculation. With the larger screen area and built-in numeric solvers, however, all these graphic calculators (48G/49G/50G) can take any equation as a starting point, display all the variables at once, using either soft labels (menu-based solver) or in a screen form (form-based solver), then let you enter values or calculate a result in any order that you wish. The solver needs no programming at all, exactly as you are asking, so I don't see why you don't give it a try, and see that it answers your wishes. You can store formulas, then use the numeric solver (either as a menu or as a form) on any pre-stored formula; you can even use any program in place of a formula (e.g. << R SQ pi * A - >> ), and let the solver accept inputs for each variable (R or A), then calculate the other. To me, this seems far more flexible, as well as far less work, than any other means which require programming to get input values, one at a time, from a user, then more programming to display a result, plus more programming to compute any other variables in the same formula. Just as in the HP32S, HP42S, etc., an automatic built-in interface exists for doing all of this, which is basically the same solver in every series, with a nicer user interface in 48G/49G/50G that takes more advantage of having the full screen to work with. Like the first swimming lesson, however, one does have to just wade in to get started :) === Subject: How do I compile a program ? posting-account=bJYOBQoAAABXgdZt2XnskyngyDGYdlOu .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506; .NET CLR 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I have written a completed program on my HP50g and want to compile it such that the code cannot be read by anyone - how do I do this ?? thank you, Kevin Dallas, Texas === Subject: Re: How do I compile a program ? > I have written a completed program on my HP50g and want to compile it > such that the code cannot be read by anyone - how do I do this ?? Compilation (to a binary internal object) occurs, for a UserRPL program, as soon as you press ENTER after editing it, but of course every UserRPL binary object is also automatically decompiled again, to be re-displayed in readable form, making the entire automatic compilation/decompilation process so transparent that many users have no idea it even happens. It is impossible to really make something that can execute existing functions within the calculator (or even in C), yet which someone can not probe to see what you are executing, but you can disguise it a bit, so that it is opaque to casual view: CODE (hide inside a CODE object): For HP49G[+]/50G series, by Joe Horn: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3250 http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/programming/misc/code.zip For original HP48S[X]/48G[X/+] series, by JKH & Richard Steventon: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1867 http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/programming/misc/code.zip === Subject: Re: How do I compile a program ? > I have written a completed program on my HP50g and want to compile it > such that the code cannot be read by anyone - how do I do this ?? > > thank you, > Kevin > Dallas, Texas Kevin, Hello from Denton. One way to accomplish your goal is to write in C on your P.C. and cross with C (HPGCC 2.0SP2) at http://sense.net/~egan/hpgcc/ links to samples and the free HPGCC environment. C offers other advantages also, which Eagan discusses on the above web site. Paul === Subject: Re: How do I compile a program ? > I have written a completed program on my HP50g and want to compile it > such that the code cannot be read by anyone - how do I do this ?? > > thank you, > Kevin > Dallas, Texas Kevin, Hello from Denton. One way to accomplish your goal is to write in C on your P.C. and cross with C (HPGCC 2.0SP2) at http://sense.net/~egan/hpgcc/ links to samples and the free HPGCC environment. C offers other advantages also, which Eagan discusses on the above web site. Paul === Subject: Re: How do I compile a program ? posting-account=T6_JoAoAAAD5X1NpIb7ZcQrmFCd8Otqa Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) The CODE program hide inside a CODE object. But, is this reversible? Can I show my original code again? === Subject: Re: How do I compile a program ? > The CODE program hide inside a CODE object. > But, is this reversible? Can I show my original code again? See the documentation (text file) which accompanies the program. Links to the programs may be found in: === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming [backslashes] > what's these '' backslashes [e.g. << >> ] in the codes mean? > I can't find in the 50G user guide. To represent 8-bit characters which have no universal symbols, so as to appear the same to everyone using all text editors, browsers, newsgroup readers, email, and to the calculator itself (when using Kermit or other text file transfer software), as well as being able to type the programs on all computer keyboards. Complete explanation and chart at: Import/export programs for emulators such as Emu48: === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming [backslashes] > Import/export programs for emulators such as Emu48: The above also imports and exports between calculators and plain text files on SD cards (which in turn may be stored or edited using computers). === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming [backslashes] posting-account=iOmfpgoAAABo05oWDDJweprpx4VPlnCT CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Import/export programs for emulators such as Emu48: The above also imports and exports > between calculators and plain text files on SD cards > (which in turn may be stored or edited using computers). On 50g user's guide page 679: Units coefficient { { S.I. units 1} { E.S. units 1.486} } 1 CHOOSE >> --->?.b3 save to 'CHP1' Running this program, system will highlight choose box 'S.I Units' (1st choice) If I select 'S.I. Units' result is s2 1 S1 1 If I select 'E.S. Units' result is s2 1.486 S1 1 I made a small change in this program, Units coefficient { { S.I. units 1} { E.S. units 1.486} } 2 CHOOSE >> --->?.b3 save to 'CHP1' Running this program, system will highlight choose box 'E.S Units' (2nd choice) If I select 'S.I. Units' result is s2 1 S1 1 If I select 'E.S. Units' result is s2 1.486 S1 1 It seems to me : the corresponding coefficient of the system unit selected is put on stack 2 (s2) But why in the two examples, the stack 1 (s1) always show number '1' , this confuse me..??? === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming [backslashes] surround it by IF or use a loop to force a selection > Import/export programs for emulators such as Emu48: The above also imports and exports > between calculators and plain text files on SD cards > (which in turn may be stored or edited using computers). On 50g user's guide page 679: Units coefficient { { S.I. units 1} { E.S. units 1.486} } 1 CHOOSE >> --->.b3Ò save to 'CHP1' Running this program, system will highlight choose box 'S.I Units' (1st choice) If I select 'S.I. Units' result is s2 1 S1 1 If I select 'E.S. Units' result is s2 1.486 S1 1 I made a small change in this program, Units coefficient { { S.I. units 1} { E.S. units 1.486} } 2 CHOOSE >> --->.b3Ò save to 'CHP1' Running this program, system will highlight choose box 'E.S Units' (2nd choice) If I select 'S.I. Units' result is s2 1 S1 1 If I select 'E.S. Units' result is s2 1.486 S1 1 It seems to me : the corresponding coefficient of the system unit selected is put on stack 2 (s2) But why in the two examples, the stack 1 (s1) always show number '1' , this confuse me..??? === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card Hi On 2008-11-01 00:52:57 +1100, TW said: > Of course not the form factor, but everything component wise is the > same. Benchmarks put it neck and neck. Everything happened to line It obviously isn't... The size is what it's all about. The iMac uses laptop components too to fit that size, driving the price up. Looking at just the components is missing the point IMO. The iMac is obviously designed to be a whole package, so to compare it with a black PC box is very shortsighted. In any case, even building a $600 PC with a dual-core 3.06GHz C2D and all the peripherals of the iMac and a 24 screen for $600 : I'd love to see how you can get all of this for that price. Remember also that the 24 in the iMac is a TFT IPS-C panel, similar panel to the Dell 2408WFP which itself cost US $689 > up nicely on sale at newegg that week. The next week or two same > exact stuff would have been about 825$US. That's still not $600 ! Even for $825, I bet you can not build such a computer with similar feature-set and a 24 IPS-C panel screen for that price. iMacs are *very* good value for money, all things considered even if you forget the OSX X superiority. Jean-Yves -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card <490fcf48$0$15217$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b1) Gecko/20081007 Firefox/3.1b1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > It obviously isn't... The size is what it's all about. That's what she said. . . I should have said performance wise it was the same. Of course the components weren't identical. > The iMac uses > laptop components too to fit that size, driving the price up. Great, smaller and slower more expensive components of a higher quality. . . > Looking at just the components is missing the point IMO. In mine, it isn't. Sure the stuff used was cheaper and not as high quality, but the critical performance (disk, cpu and memory) is equal or better. If 600 gets the critical parts, why pay more that I don't have? It only has to last a year or two before another system is purchased or built. . . > The iMac is obviously designed to be a whole package, so to compare it > with a black PC box is very shortsighted. As is ignoring anyone else's view because you are right. I recognize that it is a good value. It is still too much if you don't need all the little bits that are provided with the whole package. > In any case, even building a $600 PC with a dual-core 3.06GHz C2D and > all the peripherals of the iMac and a 24 screen for $600 : I'd love to > see how you can get all of this for that price. You seem to have missed the point. If you don't care about the form factor, never use a webcam, have no bluetooth devices, don't want a gimicky remote, have monitors that work fine, don't want or need wireless. . . so why pay for them? Yes if all that were included, the price would be the same or higher, in a not so nice package. As is, they get money for the OS, I install an EFI bootloader, and everyone is happy. I get unix in a pretty shell, they get some money and a future customer when I do have money, and I can get back to work. > Remember also that the 24 in the iMac is a TFT IPS-C panel, similar > panel to the Dell 2408WFP which itself cost US $689 And again, it doesn't matter. Two old ones that were kicking around work fine. > up nicely on sale at newegg that week. The next week or two same > exact stuff would have been about 825$US. That's still not $600 ! > Even for $825, I bet you can not build such a computer with similar > feature-set and a 24 IPS-C panel screen for that price. Of course I couldn't. I never said that I could. iMacs are *very* good value for money, all things considered even if > you forget the OSX X superiority. Yes. If you care about all the extra stuff that isn't needed, they are. Otherwise, in the critical areas that matter IMO it is the same. TW > They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, > deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) We can agree on that. :-) === Subject: Re: Please don't >Hi On 2008-10-31 00:51:53 +1100, manjo said: >> -in this context HP brand PCs are much more appealing to me than Apple/MAC >> brand Really? >I'd love to know from what point of view a HP brand PC is going to be >more appealing than a Mac... > -i admit that's the moment when i developed some kind of alergy thowards >> MACs >> (so from that point and the fact that I'm a PC i'm over-biased and my >> argument is not worth much, >> but maybe worth considering) >> As allways i respect individual preference, even though sometimes silly for >> me. Mac can run Windows while PC can't (not officially and as well >integrated anyway). What nonsense ..... you know damned well that a PC runs Windows fine! opposite isn't true: that itself should be sufficient to make a >comparison A PC can be bought very cheaply. You can build your own PC from separate parts which are readily available to buy. You cannot do that with a Mac: a Mac can only be obtained from Apple or its retailers; there is no second source for Mac's. >I'd go as far as the only way you can prefer a PC over Mac is due to >ignorance and lack of true knowledge... By going that far you only display your own ignorance. Valid reasons to prefer a PC over a Mac is: - Economy. OK, MAc's are no longer as outragely expensive as they once were, but a Mac is still much more expensive than a PC. - You enjoy tinkering with hardware. That's done much more easily with a PC than a Mac. How many Mac owners do you know who built their own Mac? Anyone at all? - Flexibility. There are second sources for everything in a PC. If you're not satisfied with a piece of your hardware, you can exchange it with something else. The only Mac you can buy are those manufactured by Apple. >There are no logical arguments that could place a PC superior to an >Apple machine because as you've stated, mac share so much common >hardware with a PC. In effect, Mac has become the copy and PC the original.... Once, Mac's had GCR formatted floppies, they had Motorola CPU's, they had firewire rather than USB ports, they had SCSI harddisks. Then things started to change.... The Mac switched from GCR formatted floppies to MSM formatted floppies, like everyone else - and suddenly it became much easier to exchange data between a Mac and a non-Mac. The Mac also switched from SCSI harddists to IDE harddisks - why? Wasn't SCSI much better? However, SCSI was also much more expensive. By switching to IDE Mac's got access to much cheaper harddisks, which were good enough for the Mac. Then the Mac switched CPU's. First from Motorola to PowerPC, and next from PowerPC to ..... gasp ..... INTEL !!!! This was a severe blow to the more dedicated followers of the Mac religion^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcomputer, but I guess they adapted. And today's Mac's also have USB ports, just like PC's. Here the adaption has been more mutual though: PC's often have Forewire ports too. >Except that from a developer perspective Mac OS is superior in every >way to Windows. Fortunately PC users aren't forced to use Windoze. There are alternatives... However, Windoze, even though it's a somewhat sloppy OS, does have one great advantage: the vast amount of software available for it. And that's what you're (hopefully) using youir computer for: running useful applications rather than just admiring the beauty of the OS ..... right? >> -MACs are in did in rare/some marekting offices (kept like jewels) shining >> there on the corner table/office >> while PC does all the work no matter if it's graphic, math, text, driving >> printing machinery and so on. You obviously haven't been to the right place. >Most videos and photo editing place would use a mac ; it's one area >where the applications available on mac shine... That's not surprising, because that's the area the Mac focused on from the very beginning. However, a computer is more than just a glorified digital darkroom, even though media people may be unaware of that. An area where the PC shines, compared to the Mac, is if you want to connect, and control, a piece of less common hardware to your computer. This includes some hardware you can buy in stores or order on the Net, but it could also include hardware you built yourself. To integrate such hardware with your computer may not be easy, but on the PC with its open architecture it's at least straightforward to do so, even though it of course requires some amount of work. On the less open Mac it's not as straightforward. The proper way to choose a computer is this: 1. Decide what you want to do with your computer 2. Find applications which let you do that 3. Choose the computer which runs those applications best If you're a lot into graphics or media, a Mac may be the best choice. If you're into hardware construction and control, a PC may be the best choice. Et cetera ..... both are excellent choices for those who choose, and you shouldn't declare people as idiots just because they make a different choice than you, because they probably know things you don't know. My favourite criterion for choosing is this: 1. Find out who you are going to collaborate most with. If you'll dabble with your computer in isolation, this is of course irrelevent, then just decide what YOU want to do instead. 2. Find out what computers most of your future collaborators are using. 3. Choose a computer that's most compatible with their computers. >> use >> science ! >> I would suggest you use your own advice here and actually comments not >based on what you believe but based on what you know for facts, >rather than this irrational gibberish... Like the biased stuff you posted? -- >They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, >deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) > -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN e-mail: pausch at stjarnhimlen dot se WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/ === Subject: Re: Please don't Hi On 2008-10-31 00:51:53 +1100, manjo said: > -in this context HP brand PCs are much more appealing to me than Apple/MAC > brand Really? I'd love to know from what point of view a HP brand PC is going to be more appealing than a Mac... > -i admit that's the moment when i developed some kind of alergy thowards > MACs > (so from that point and the fact that I'm a PC i'm over-biased and my > argument is not worth much, > but maybe worth considering) > As allways i respect individual preference, even though sometimes silly for > me. Mac can run Windows while PC can't (not officially and as well integrated anyway). A Mac can do everything a PC does while the opposite isn't true: that itself should be sufficient to make a comparison I'd go as far as the only way you can prefer a PC over Mac is due to ignorance and lack of true knowledge... There are no logical arguments that could place a PC superior to an Apple machine because as you've stated, mac share so much common hardware with a PC. Except that from a developer perspective Mac OS is superior in every way to Windows. > > -MACs are in did in rare/some marekting offices (kept like jewels) shining > there on the corner table/office > while PC does all the work no matter if it's graphic, math, text, driving > printing machinery and so on. You obviously haven't been to the right place. Most videos and photo editing place would use a mac ; it's one area where the applications available on mac shine... > > use > science ! > I would suggest you use your own advice here and actually comments not based on what you believe but based on what you know for facts, rather than this irrational gibberish... Jean-Yves -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: Please don't X > There are no logical arguments that could place a PC superior to an Apple > machine because as you've stated, mac share so much common hardware with a > PC. > Except that from a developer perspective Mac OS is superior in every way > to Windows. X Companies for which I've been working for have been using windows for past two decades. Niche computers are for niche market I said the same thing when I used an Amiga 3000 A multitasking PC which was superior to the new Mac [and Lisa] But in the early 90's the PC became more powerful and finally in 95 when the first real Windows came the game was over [I was programming using NT 4.0] Now I'm planning to build yet again my own Windows XP PC GIGABYTE GA-EP45-DQ6 Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450/Q9559/Q9650 2*cheap Radeon 256MB=512 [to be replaced later with DirectX 11 cards] DVD+/-.RW [no Blue-Ray] sata Old Tower with extra 12 fans old floppy 3¸ ??? PATA card for more PATA drives ???? Bluetooth*7 USB dongle Wifi card Thermaltake Toughpower 750W Cable Management 2-3 pieces of Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 (1,5 TB, 7200 RPM, sata II) ST31500341AS I'm willing to exchange my HP 16C for an Intel CORE 2 QUAD Q9650 Each package should be easy to post in a padded envelope === Subject: What SD card? posting-account=_oCSzAoAAAB7yYuxA-qEbYywlmh1EFjt 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I am look for info about SD cards for the HP50g. For example: What SD cards work with the HP50g? What is the biggest SD card that works with the HP50g? What is the fastest SD card that works with the HP50g? What SD card provides for the fastes turn-on time with the HP50g? And any other useful information that may help decide on the purchase of a SD card for the HP50g. I remember reading that some SD cards slow down the turn-on time of the HP50g, while others do not. I also remember reading someone saying that how the SD card is formated makes a difference in this. Not sure if this is still true or not, or if there are other factors or not... Dan === Subject: Re: What SD card? I am look for info about SD cards for the HP50g. >For example: What SD cards work with the HP50g? >What is the biggest SD card that works with the HP50g? >What is the fastest SD card that works with the HP50g? >What SD card provides for the fastes turn-on time with the HP50g? And any other useful information that may help decide on the purchase >of a SD card for the HP50g. I remember reading that some SD cards slow down the turn-on time of >the HP50g, while others do not. I also remember reading someone >saying that how the SD card is formated makes a difference in this. >Not sure if this is still true or not, or if there are other factors >or not... Dan SanDisk from 64MB to 2GB. Damir === Subject: Re: What SD card? X > SanDisk from 64MB to 2GB. I have a Nokia Communicator 9110 8MB MMC and it works, too! a «32MB MMC and a 32MB SD also works Keep root small and use the smallest card, then it is fast a 512MB = ¸GB card or bigger uses FAT32, which can not be used for SD ROM upgrade. I suggest using small a SanDisk leftover from a digicamera or phone === Subject: Re: What SD card? posting-account=ky6NnQoAAAAl8HjjF10EUMKbzXiIKhTR Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Nov 4, 12:22pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen X > SanDisk from 64MB to 2GB. I have a Nokia Communicator 9110 8MB MMC and it works, too! > a «32MB MMC and a 32MB SD also works Keep root small and use the smallest card, then it is fast a 512MB = ¸GB card or bigger uses FAT32, > which can not be used for SD ROM upgrade. I suggest using small a SanDisk leftover from a digicamera or phone Just my 2¢, I have a 32MB Canon SD card that came with a camera that I'm using in one of my calculators, and have bought a SanDisk Ultra II 1GB SD card that I'm using in my other calculator. I notice that turn on time is noticeably faster with the SanDisk card, and when accessing the File Manager and selecting 3:SD, the SanDisk card is MUCH faster than the Canon card even though the SanDisk has ~120MB of data on it while the Canon has ~24MB. Jacob === Subject: Re: What SD card? posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b1) Gecko/20081007 Firefox/3.1b1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Just my 2¢, I have a 32MB Canon SD card that came with a camera that > I'm using in one of my calculators, and have bought a SanDisk Ultra II > 1GB SD card that I'm using in my other calculator. I notice that turn > on time is noticeably faster with the SanDisk card, and when accessing > the File Manager and selecting 3:SD, the SanDisk card is MUCH faster > than the Canon card even though the SanDisk has ~120MB of data on it > while the Canon has ~24MB. True. The access time on SD cards will be noticeably faster using an ultra-II (or similar). Any faster card is useless as it won't improve the speed at all. For max speed, format the card using FAT with as large of clusters as you can. Anything bigger than 2GB will not be accessible. TW === Subject: sys-rpl and clock posting-account=6Xk2SwoAAACIm5pYE9m8TqQG94WHZApf Gecko/2008091413 Mandriva/1.9.0.1-16mdv2009.0 (2009.0) Firefox/3.0.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I made a program in sys-rpl (on hp49g+). It does something like :: CLEARLCD ... Then we have some sys-rpl code here, using XYGROBDISP or DISPROW3 and so on... Then we have WaitForKey ; The problem is that the clock is on the screen during the WaitForKey. Is-it possible to switch-off the clock during my program and switch on after? Of course, saving the flag (40) at the beginning of the program, changint it, and then restoring it will work. Is there anything simple? (Sorry of the English grammar...) Just try :: CLEARLCD Hello World DISPROW1 WaitForKey (*) ; @ (*) I don't want the clock at this moment... Tanguy === Subject: Re: sys-rpl and clock posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) :: RECLAIMDISP ( clear and resize display ) ClrDA1IsStat ( temporarily disable clock ) Hello World DISPROW1 WaitForKey ; @ HTH, Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: sys-rpl and clock > > :: > RECLAIMDISP ( clear and resize display ) > ClrDA1IsStat ( temporarily disable clock ) > Hello World > DISPROW1 > WaitForKey > ; > @ > > HTH, > Andreas > http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de We can also do :: CLEARLCD ClrDA1IsStat ( temporarily disable clock ) Hello World DISPROW1 WaitForKey ; @ With your program the menu is still on the screen, with mine all the screen is empty (except Hello World). Is there other differences? === Subject: Re: sys-rpl and clock <4911581a$0$19729$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > With your program the menu is still on the screen, with > mine all the screen is empty (except Hello World). Is there other > differences? Probably, but please refer to the well know documentation with it as I do not know what you want to do exactly. The main difference is that CLEARLCD clears HARDBUFF where as RECLAIMDISP sets HARDBUFF back to its default parameters (blank screen, 131x80 or 131x64 pixels) To turn the menu on and off use TURNMENUON/TURNMENUOFF, for example. HTH, Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming [backslashes] [about what's returned to stack by CHOOSE] All commands (with their required inputs and results) are fully explained in the Advanced Users Guide (AUR). If you select a value and OK (or ENTER), then it returns two things: value 1 The purpose of 1/0 is as a TRUE/FALSE test using IF... === Subject: Re: Please don't > The proper way to choose a computer is this: > > 1. Decide what you want to do with your computer > > 2. Find applications which let you do that > > 3. Choose the computer which runs those applications best Alternatively... 1) Ask yourself: Who is going to help you out when you get stuck? 2) Find out what type of computer that person uses 3) Buy the same :-) -- Bruce Horrocks Surrey England (bruce at scorecrow dot com) === Subject: HP 35s Stack: Bug? I just bought an HP 35s. The stack seems to be behaving oddly, and I'm not sure if it's operator error or a bad calculator. The stack seems to be double-entering my numbers. For instance, 1 2 produces a stack of 2 - 2 - 1. Entering 1 2 3 4 produces a stack of 4 - 4 - 3 -2, not 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 as I would have expected. Am I just doing something wrong? D === Subject: Re: HP 35s Stack: Bug? > Am I just doing something wrong? RPL is not RPN. When you type a number, it is entered directly on the stack. This means 2 (is already on the stack) ENTER (makes a copy). Take a look at the part of the manual describing RPN operation. You will need to take a look at it. I do the same thing when switching back and forth from the 50 to the 35. Takes a few mins before I stop doing it. TW === Subject: Re: HP 35s Stack: Bug? >> Am I just doing something wrong? RPL is not RPN. When you type a number, it is entered directly on the >stack. This means 2 (is already on the stack) ENTER (makes a copy). >Take a look at the part of the manual describing RPN operation. You >will need to take a look at it. I do the same thing when switching >back and forth from the 50 to the 35. Takes a few mins before I stop >doing it. TW The HP41C/V/X does the same thing. I have a similar problem when switching back an forth from the 41 and 48/49/50 series Harold A. Climer Dept Of Physics Geology & Astronomy U.T. Chattanooga Room 406A Engineering,Math & Computer Sicence Building 615 McCallie Ave. Chattanooga TN 37403 Harold-Climer@utc.edu === Subject: euler's identity posting-account=7ypjXwoAAAA6Phe0dE2NwavGiqMYGDdw Presto/2.1.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Is there a way to convert a bunch of e-functions into sin or cos? TSIMP doesn't seem to do it. Christoph === Subject: Re: euler's identity > > Is there a way to convert a bunch of e-functions into sin or cos? > TSIMP doesn't seem to do it. > > > Christoph If you mean converting expressions like 'EXP(i*X)' to 'COS(X) + i*SIN(X)' Try the following program: << -103 SF @ sets complex mode {'EXP(i*&X)' 'COS(&X)+i*SIN(&X)'} |^MATCH @ where |^ represents the ASCII 114 up-arrow character DROP >> Note that the '&X' expressions in the second line allow replacement of an arbitrary expression. The up-arrow-MATCH command will replace anything matching 'EXP(i*&X)' by 'COS(&X)+i*SIN(&X)', even inside more complicated expressions. And it returns a 1 if any replacement was made or 0 if none was masd (hence the DROP command). There is a similar command with a down arrow instead of an up arrow. The up arrow command works from inside out on the expression on level 1, and the down arrow command from the outside in. Using these arrowed MATCH commands, on can set up about any conversions one wants as programs, or even in a library, and have them perpetually available. === Subject: Re: euler's identity [Right-Shift] [TRIG] [NXT] |SINCO | > Is there a way to convert a bunch of e-functions into sin or cos? >> TSIMP doesn't seem to do it. >> Christoph If you mean converting expressions like > 'EXP(i*X)' to > 'COS(X) + i*SIN(X)' Try the following program: << -103 SF @ sets complex mode > {'EXP(i*&X)' 'COS(&X)+i*SIN(&X)'} > |^MATCH @ where |^ represents the ASCII 114 up-arrow character > DROP > Note that the '&X' expressions in the second line allow replacement of > an arbitrary expression. The up-arrow-MATCH command will replace anything matching 'EXP(i*&X)' > by 'COS(&X)+i*SIN(&X)', even inside more complicated expressions. > And it returns a 1 if any replacement was made or 0 if none was masd > (hence the DROP command). There is a similar command with a down arrow instead of an up arrow. The up arrow command works from inside out on the expression on level 1, > and the down arrow command from the outside in. Using these arrowed MATCH commands, on can set up about any conversions > one wants as programs, or even in a library, and have them perpetually > available. === Subject: Re: euler's identity >[Right-Shift] [TRIG] [NXT] |SINCO >| In what manual and where is this described? A.L. === Subject: Re: euler's identity You don't even need any manuals - the calc's HELP will tell you this! Happy exploring the calculator - it surely takes some time with so many functions >[Right-Shift] [TRIG] [NXT] |SINCO >>| In what manual and where is this described? A.L. === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators Hi On 2008-10-18 21:03:44 +1100, reth said: > > May I ask who were the people you were listening to before you started > the Qonos project? > That's rather easy to answer: Gerald and myself. Then I started to add options that people kept asking for, complexity increased, cost increased and it went nowhere. -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators Hi On 2008-10-19 22:59:14 +1100, Martin Krischik said: > I disagree here. HP should be trying to find out what they did right > then and why they are not as successful now. The market has changed. People aren't looking for the same products or solutions these days. Who can really believe that resurecting a product that was sold 20 years ago will actually be commercially successful. Someone mentioned earlier that customers will be will willing to pay twice more for a vintage calculator compare to a new one. Sure, but how many people ? It cost millions to make a calculator, so unless you have hundreds of thousand customers it's just not going to work today > And my most used emulator: A HP 16c. Now if only I would have know at > the time I would have got one (current eBay prices are just sky high). > Domain specific calculators (like the voyagers) is the way to go. Problem is: you are part of those 100 people HP is now targeting. So of course you see the advantage in HP doing so. -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators > I really think HP is listening to the wrong people regarding what their next > product should be. Who do you think they *should* be listening to? I figure the folks at, e.g., HPCC conferences are a representative subset of what people in general want in a calculator... just those who are willing to attend HPCC tend to have much stronger opinions about it. This is useful in that such people have usually consciously thought about what they like and don't like in a calculator and can express it clearly, whereas the average user often hasn't given it nearly so much thought. > Sure, HP made some great stuff back then, but really how many people are > likely going to buy a revamp of a HP15C, a 41CX other than the 100 people > following this newsgroup. The same people buying the high-end TI and Casio calculators now, I would think? There's plenty to like about TI and Casio calculators, but there's no fundamental technology they have that HP can't have as well... and HP perhaps still even maintains a better reputation for quality than they do. ---Joel === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators Hi On 2008-10-22 07:36:05 +1100, Joel Koltner said: > > Who do you think they *should* be listening to? This is an easy question to answer: TI and Casio have shown what's the way to go: teachers. What's left of the calculator market is in education. Engineering can get much more powerful solution through dedicated device, or simply the right software for a PDA > > I figure the folks at, e.g., HPCC conferences are a representative subset of > what people in general want in a calculator... just those who are willing to I disagree. They only represent a very tiny market: the calculator fanatic and hobbiest. > The same people buying the high-end TI and Casio calculators now, I would > think? There's plenty to like about TI and Casio calculators, but there's no They aren't the same people. High-end TI or Casio are entirely focused to work on specific curriculum and education. Nothing that a 15C, 41C etc could do today. HP only has one calculator that is kind of aligned with today's educational market: the 39G or 40G. I say kind-of because that calculators is now quite old and is in need for a serious upgrade and update to match the new curriculum content. > fundamental technology they have that HP can't have as well... and HP perhaps > still even maintains a better reputation for quality than they do. Unfortunately, the days HP was linked to quality are long gone. The day they decided to bastardise their product range to compete in the consumer range with company like Gateway, Dell, Compaq is the day they lost it IMO. And worse, they aren't even good at it... I will never recommend a HP PC to any of my friend or consider them for work. There are better alternatives and cheaper. And their tech support is rather poor. Mind you, I'm very sadden by this situation ... I do hope that HP succeed, but I got a serious reality check .. which seem to be missing by many of the posters here. -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: principal value of ARG(z=x+y*i) SYMMETRY? > Why HP 50g uses this definition of principal value of ARG(z) of a > complex number z: (ARG(z=x+y*i)-> ATAN(y/x)+(1-x/ABS(x))*pi/2? -pi > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number Ex. ARG(-1-1*i)=(5/4)*pi instead of -(3/4)*pi Simone. === Subject: Re: Nosy related question posting-account=ky6NnQoAAAAl8HjjF10EUMKbzXiIKhTR Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > sure how to decipher. ?For example say I put {-} in the stack and > execute Nosy I get the CK2&Dispatch followed by a number of possible > arguments with their own specific function. ?Starting at the top is > 2REAL, which simply means two reals and %- is the function. ?Now, > where my confusion begins is right below it. ?Reading 'Programming in > System RPL' I qoute: Each type definition is a bint like this: > #nnnnn. Each n is an hexadecimal number representing the object in one > position of the stack, according to the table below. ?Could someone > point me in a direction of how to get familiar with the other formats > that don't seem to fit the #nnnnn format? ?I also notice that under > the built in BINTS, BINT17 is aka 2REAL. ?What is #FFFF, or BINT18 > for example. ?Any help would be appreciated. 2REAL and BINT17 are symbols, each having the same hex value 00011, > representing dispatch value 1 on stack level 2 and on stack level 1 > (zeros represent either no argument or don't care what type). The following table symbolically summarizes the dispatch codes, > in slightly abbreviated (or cryptic :) format: ? Object Dispatch Type Codes 2 C% ? 8 ::; ? ?E UNIT ? 5F L[] ? BF ACP > 3 $ ? ?9 ALG ? 0F ROMP ? 6F CHR ? CF FON > 4 [] ? A SYC ? 1F # ? ? ?7F COD ? DF MFO > 5 {} ? B HXS ? 2F RRP ? ?8F LIB ? EF EX4 > 6 ID ? C GRO ? 3F %% ? ? 9F BKP ? FF INT Dispatch code hex 1 is represented above by the SysRPL symbol %, > used in the syntax of real-number objects, > so 00011 represents real on level2, real on level1, thus 2REAL The fact that there are more than 15 object types pretty much > makes it impossible to represent all types within one > 4-bit hex digit, so what's been done is that hex digit F > has to be combined with a preceding hex digit, to form > a 2-digit type code 0F thru FF for some objects on a single stack level. FFFF thus represents two type codes, FF and FF > which means two Exact Integer type objects > (new to HP49/50 series, did not exist in first HP48 series). BINT18 is hex 00012 (real on level 2, complex on level 1). Functions which require objects having 2-digit dispatch codes > generally do not require three of those objects as arguments, > so a 20-bit bint manages to suffice to express all stack argument sets > (even if it didn't, other individual tests could be made later, > instead of up front). SYC represents Symbolic class (any of several types), > as further explained below. Except for the existence of new object types in the HP49/50 series, > original plain text document RPLMAN.DOC, starting on page 63, > very lucidly explains Dispatching on Argument Type, > including the two-digit codes: http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=rplman.dochttp://www.hpcalc.org/detail s.php?id=1743http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/programming/rplman.zip > A brief excerpt from RPLMAN.DOC (page 63) follows > [with slight adjustments] ------------------------- A binary integer typei is nominally encoded as follows: ? ? ? ? ?#nnnnn > ? ? ? ? ? ||||| > ? ? ? ? ? ||||+-- Level 1 argument type > ? ? ? ? ? |||+--- Level 2 argument type > ? ? ? ? ? ||+---- Level 3 argument type > ? ? ? ? ? |+----- Level 4 argument type > ? ? ? ? ? +------ Level 5 argument type Each n is a hexadecimal digit representing an object type, > as shown in the table below. ?Thus #00011 represents two > real numbers; #000A0 indicates a symbolic class object > (symb, id, or lam) in level 2 and any type of object in > level 1. ?There are also two-digit object type numbers, > ending in F; use of any of these consequently reduces the > total number of arguments that can be encoded in a single > typei integer. ?For example, #13F4F represents a real number > in level 3, an extended real in level 2, and an extended > complex in level 1. The following table shows the hex digit values for each > argument type. ?The column # name shows the object pointer > name for the corresponding binary integer that may be used > for a single argument function. ?The Binary Integers > chapter contains a list of built-in binary integers that may > be used for various common two-argument combinations. ? ? ? ? ?Value ? Argument ? ? ? ? ? # name ? User TYPE > ? ? ? ? ?----- ? ---------------- ? ------ ? --------- > ? ? ? ? ? ?0 ? ? Any Object ? ? ? ? ?any > ? ? ? ? ? ?1 ? ? Real Number ? ? ? ? real ? ? ? ? 0 > ? ? ? ? ? ?2 ? ? Complex Number ? ? ?cmp ? ? ? ? ?1 > ? ? ? ? ? ?3 ? ? Character String ? ?str ? ? ? ? ?2 > ? ? ? ? ? ?4 ? ? Array ? ? ? ? ? ? ? arry ? ? ? 3,4 > ? ? ? ? ? ?5 ? ? List ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?list ? ? ? ? 5 > ? ? ? ? ? ?6 ? ? Global Name ? ? ? ? idnt ? ? ? ? 6 > ? ? ? ? ? ?7 ? ? Local Name ? ? ? ? ?lam ? ? ? ? ?7 > ? ? ? ? ? ?8 ? ? Secondary ? ? ? ? ? seco ? ? ? ? 8 > ? ? ? ? ? ?9 ? ? Symbolic ? ? ? ? ? ?symb ? ? ? ? 9 > ? ? ? ? ? ?A ? ? Symbolic Class ? ? ?sym ? ? ?6,7,9 > ? ? ? ? ? ?B ? ? Hex String ? ? ? ? ?hxs ? ? ? ? 10 > ? ? ? ? ? ?C ? ? Graphics Object ? ? grob ? ? ? ?11 > ? ? ? ? ? ?D ? ? Tagged Object ? ? ? TAGGED ? ? ?12 > ? ? ? ? ? ?E ? ? Unit Object ? ? ? ? unitob ? ? ?13 > ? ? ? ? ? 0F ? ? ROM Pointer ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 14 > ? ? ? ? ? 1F ? ? Binary Integer ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?20 > ? ? ? ? ? 2F ? ? Directory ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 15 > ? ? ? ? ? 3F ? ? Extended Real ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 21 > ? ? ? ? ? 4F ? ? Extended Complex ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?22 > ? ? ? ? ? 5F ? ? Linked Array ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?23 > ? ? ? ? ? 6F ? ? Character ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 24 > ? ? ? ? ? 7F ? ? Code Object ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 25 > ? ? ? ? ? 8F ? ? Library ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 16 > ? ? ? ? ? 9F ? ? Backup ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?17 > ? ? ? ? ? AF ? ? Library Data ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?26 > ? ? ? ? ? BF ? ? External object1 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?27 [ACPTR] > ? ? ? ? ? CF ? ? External object2 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?30 [Font in 49/50] > ? ? ? ? ? DF ? ? External object3 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?27 [Minifont in 49/50] > ? ? ? ? ? EF ? ? External object4 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?-- [?? in 49/50] > ? ? ? ? ? FF ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 28 [Integer in 49/50] [End] hex value of 00011, etc), Let there be Light! Much appreciated. Jacob === Subject: Re: Nosy related question InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Was it the same bit of code for both that would execute, or different > bits? If the same, a check and dispatch would be the way to go. TW would be one or the other input type depending on the user. How would you tell Dispatch to look for one of two types on Level 1? I couldn't find a way to do that other than checking for both and doing an OR. Bill === Subject: Re: Nosy related question posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b1) Gecko/20081007 Firefox/3.1b1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > would be one or the other input type depending on the user. How would > you tell Dispatch to look for one of two types on Level 1? I couldn't > find a way to do that other than checking for both and doing an OR. I don't think that is possible as each dispatched bit of code goes to a single object. If you have subroutines though like in a library, it would work fine like this: :: CK&DISPATCH0 idnt SUBROUT1 seco SUBROUT1 ; Don't know how much more efficient that is though spacewise. TW === Subject: Re: Nosy related question InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I don't think that is possible as each dispatched bit of code goes to > a single object. If you have subroutines though like in a library, it > would work fine like this: :: > CK&DISPATCH0 > idnt > SUBROUT1 > seco > SUBROUT1 > ; code isn't large, it seemed clunky to duplicate it. Looks like the OR method isn't so bad. :-) Bill === Subject: Re: Nosy related question > is there an either/or function for [any level] > [E.g.] either a global (type 6) or a secondary (type 8). Aside from built-in SYC (Symbolic class), which is itself a built-in OR function, and by dispatch code 4 (any kind of array), which even includes user types 3 (real array), 4 (complex array), and new type 29 (symbolic array), the answer as given by typical ROM code is: (xSTO) :: CK2&Dispatch # 9FD FPTR 2 11 # 8FD FPTR 2 11 BINT13 FPTR 2 11 (...) # 9F1 FPTR 2 11 # 8F1 FPTR 2 11 ; ( :-) === Subject: Re: Nosy related question InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > the answer as given by typical ROM code is: (xSTO) > :: commands to see how they handled various objects. Unfortunately, HP wasn't farsighted enough to do a built-in OR for what I wanted. :-) Bill === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card > calc:no >> pc: yes And Mac: yes. And Linux, yes. Btw, a Mac is nowadays essentially a PC.... nowadays it uses IDE rather than SCSI harddisks, it uses (or did use, while floppies were still in use) MFM rather than GCR formattet floppies. And it even has an Intel CPU ..... and runs ...... Windoze! The difference between a Mac and a WinTel machine is nowadays much smaller than it once was. It's probably just a matter of time until Mac OS-X will run on standard PC hardware. >> Is it possible to remove a subdirectory on an SD card on the 50g? I >> don't have problems removing files in the subdirectory, just the >> subdirectory itself. Neither PURGE nor PGDIR have any effect. The >> built-in filer can't remove the subdirectory either. >> > I can, of course, remove the subdirectory by plugging the card into >> the reader on my HP laptop, but sometimes that's too much work. >> > I also suppose the same question can be asked about read-only files. >> > TIA >> kiyoshi -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN e-mail: pausch at stjarnhimlen dot se WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/ === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card >>>>> calc:no >>>> pc: yes >>> And Mac: yes. >> >> And Linux, yes. >> >> Btw, a Mac is nowadays essentially a PC.... nowadays it uses IDE rather >> than SCSI harddisks, it uses (or did use, while floppies were still in >> use) MFM rather than GCR formattet floppies. And it even has an Intel >> CPU ..... and runs ...... Windoze! If you check the relevant Wikipedia pages you will see that the >differences in the various computer systems lie in the amount of power >they provide - and not the operation system used: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workstation >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_(computing) And that there is a Mac OS X System for each of the three segments (SCSI >is available for both Mac Pro and XServe): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Pro >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XServe Of course, there are Linux and Windows Systems which provide for all >three segments as well. Mac OS is not special in that respect. segment is vanishing, as the PC segment becomes more and more powerful. Also the server segment is less about the hardware capabilities of a specific computer and more about how that computer is actually used. Of course e.g. blade servers and other rack mounted computers are less likely to be used as PC's - but they could be used like that. The hardware capabilities of a blade server and a more powerful PC aren't that much different.... Martin -- >mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net >Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN e-mail: pausch at stjarnhimlen dot se WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/ === Subject: Re: Servers vs. ... The stand-alone servers that we use all have hot-swappable RAID disk arrays (with onboard smart controllers), memory with parity-checking, appear to have been made far more rugged than any PC which we have ever obtained through other channels, some have run continuously for ten years or more, and the vendor (mostly Dell) has given much more attention to their service, even offering some consultatation and help long after service contracts are no longer even available. Our department is now shifting to order newer servers from some company called HP, which seems likely to save money, and also, inevitably, to get just what we pay for. -[ ]- === Subject: Please don't A bit off topic but here goes: Please don't try to obfuscate the thing which is clear for some time: Apple (Mac) in terms of hardware is no more ! all there is now is MAC OSX (more-less cripled down linux distro supporting MAC hardware identified by BIOS serials and such) it realy is a PC packed and branded in to MAC casing and it DOES run Windows (if users choose to make it so) there is nothing left from original MAC there so get over it ! manjo ONE WORLD, ONE NATION, ONE PC (...and things like that) ! === Subject: Re: Please don't >A bit off topic but here goes: Please don't try to obfuscate the thing which is clear for some time: Apple (Mac) in terms of hardware is no more ! > all there is now is MAC OSX > (more-less cripled down linux distro supporting MAC hardware yeah - cripled down linux distro indeed! Do you mean the user interface or the installation of applications or ... Even though Linux is from Finland I say: it's NOT a consumer product > identified by BIOS serials and such) it realy is a PC packed and branded in to MAC casing > and it DOES run Windows (if users choose to make it so) there is nothing left from original MAC there so get over it ! manjo > ONE WORLD, ONE NATION, ONE PC (...and things like that) ! > === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b1) Gecko/20081007 Firefox/3.1b1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > The difference between a Mac and a WinTel machine is nowadays much > smaller than it once was. It's probably just a matter of time until > Mac OS-X will run on standard PC hardware. I know a, uh, friend, who runs a retail copy of OSX on a system he built himself. The performance is essentially equal to the ~2000$US Imac but cost all of 600$ for the hardware and another 140 for OSX. I don't. . . I mean, he doesn't, care about a silly EULA restriction that would be unenforceable in a court. Caused us to buy a macbook for the wife too. TW === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card is Mac not a personal computer? I have two old Macs... > calc:no >> pc: yes And Mac: yes. >> Is it possible to remove a subdirectory on an SD card on the 50g? I >> don't have problems removing files in the subdirectory, just the >> subdirectory itself. Neither PURGE nor PGDIR have any effect. The >> built-in filer can't remove the subdirectory either. >> > I can, of course, remove the subdirectory by plugging the card into >> the reader on my HP laptop, but sometimes that's too much work. >> > I also suppose the same question can be asked about read-only files. >> > TIA >> kiyoshi === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card > is Mac not a personal computer? Depends on the model, the MacPro is a workstation and Xserve is a Server. Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card >is Mac not a personal computer? No, Mac is a religion.... > calc:no >>> pc: yes >> And Mac: yes. >>>> Is it possible to remove a subdirectory on an SD card on the 50g? I >>> don't have problems removing files in the subdirectory, just the >>> subdirectory itself. Neither PURGE nor PGDIR have any effect. The >>> built-in filer can't remove the subdirectory either. >>>> I can, of course, remove the subdirectory by plugging the card into >>> the reader on my HP laptop, but sometimes that's too much work. >>>> I also suppose the same question can be asked about read-only files. >>>> TIA >>> kiyoshi -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN e-mail: pausch at stjarnhimlen dot se WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/ === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card > Is it possible to remove a subdirectory on an SD card on the 50g? Yes, you can do it on the 50g, if you use SDfiler: http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=sdfiler http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=6524 Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: subdirectories on SD card posting-account=aNIMWQoAAAABQC8BtMa46IHzYoCwCjwc Oh well, I was afraid of that. At least I now know I'm not missing something simple. thx === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators posting-account=V5sJFQoAAAAQvUfHGW3d2M4A3uHzIMnY Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > 1. HP48GX > 2. HP41CX Interesting. I took the survey, and I reversed the order. 41CX first, 48GX second. The survey was, um, poorly designed. HP already knows what they want to do, and so they fixed the survey so that the results will be biased to support their decision. It looks to me like they're still not serious about calculators. === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators <48fe965c$0$6996$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=V5sJFQoAAAAQvUfHGW3d2M4A3uHzIMnY Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Oct 23, 11:00am, Joel Koltner What's left of the calculator market is in education. Engineering can get > much more powerful solution through dedicated device, or simply the right > software for a PDA [...] > I also don't see that much extra time required (during product development) > to give the calculator fanatics/hard-core hobbyists something to chew on while > simultaneously addressing the mass market demands. (And HP has done this with > the HP 20b, IMO.) > And worse, they aren't even good at it... I will never recommend a HP PC to > any of my friend or consider them for work. HP essentially gave the lead in the calculator market to TI when they walked away from it. That was when Carly Fiorina stood up and announced that they were discontinuing the calculator product line because it was, in her words, not profitable. Well, first she was wrong, second she was shortsighted, and third she didn't understand calculators. She was wrong because the calculator product line was holding its own, paying the bills and consistently showing a profit, in spite of horrendous corporate cost-cutting. However, its profit was such a miniscule fraction of corporate profits that it got lost on the pie chart. (And it paled in comparison to the other product made in Corvallis: inkjet printheads.) If she was wrong and knew it, then she was lying. She was shortsighted because people who bought HP calculators and liked them tended to buy other HP stuff: computers, printers, servers, scopes, logic analyzers, frequency counters, power supplies, signal generators, spectrum analyzers -- can I stop now? It wouldn't have mattered if HP lost $195 on every scientific calculator they sold: their profit on a computer or an instrument was many times $195. Carly and her minions didn't know how to (or simply chose not to) calculate the goodwill generated by those calculators and translate that goodwill into future earnings. By walking away from calculators, she caused HP to lose untold thousands of dollars of profit from bigger-ticket items. She didn't understand calculators because she was an idiot -- no, sorry, let me try them again. She simply didn't understand calculators and therefore, to her they were useless. Somebody told her that one day PDAs will replace calculators, and because she didn't understand calculators, she believed them. And then she made the prophecy come true. As a result, the group of wizards and geniuses that were responsible for HP's long and successful calculator line was disbanded, and its members have long gone their separate ways. TI rushed in to fill the vacuum. Post-Carly HP realized their mistake and tried to fix things, but they have never been serious enough about it to get anywhere. HP's calculator marketing post-Carly has been either nonexistent or simply embarrassing. The quality of the designs that have come out of Taiwan have been uniformly horrible (except for the 35S), and the quality of the construction (including the 35S) has been uniformly bad -- not even as good as TI. As someone else said, teachers know what's going on. The AP Calculus teacher at our local high school used to say If you're using an HP48, I can help you; if not, you're on your own. Now that same teacher says If you're using a TI-84/86/89, I can help you; if not, you're on your own. She'd go back to the HP product line in a minute if HP could match what TI has done to win the hearts and minds of America's teachers -- and from there, America's students and parents. -- Ray === Subject: Re: Please don't Cripled down in sence of hardware support shined up in sence of user nteface so-so in sence of application > yeah - cripled down linux distro indeed! > Do you mean the user interface or the installation of applications or ... > Even though Linux is from Finland I say: it's NOT a consumer product >> identified by BIOS serials and such) >> it realy is a PC packed and branded in to MAC casing >> and it DOES run Windows (if users choose to make it so) >> there is nothing left from original MAC there so get over it ! >> manjo >> ONE WORLD, ONE NATION, ONE PC (...and things like that) ! > > === Subject: Re: Please don't > Cripled down in sence of hardware support > shined up in sence of user nteface > so-so in sence of application > > yeah - cripled down linux distro indeed! > Do you mean the user interface or the installation of applications or ... > Even though Linux is from Finland I say: it's NOT a consumer product >> identified by BIOS serials and such) > >> it realy is a PC packed and branded in to MAC casing >> and it DOES run Windows (if users choose to make it so) > >> there is nothing left from original MAC there so get over it ! > >> manjo >> ONE WORLD, ONE NATION, ONE PC (...and things like that) ! Does manjo mean Crippled down in sense of hardware support shined up in sense of user interface so-so in sense of application? === Subject: Re: Please don't > Does manjo mean > Crippled down in sense of hardware support > shined up in sense of user interface > so-so in sense of application? I didn't realize there are people here taking this argument so personal, ans so serious, just for those few: same old argument i used to have when i was a boy: -commodore vs spectrum -pc vs mac -linux vs windows and many more equaly pointless dilemas... (pointless if one learns nothing or still chooses the wrong tool to hammer a nail) Let's just stick to the fact that MAC is changed a lot from what it was -it runs WINDOWS so it's a PC what more proof do you need ? And to fire up some more flames : While original MAC slowly faded away PC got bigger and better than ever before It's the same thing only more, and you get to see them in all shapes and sizes. Heck somone mentioned servers ? Is there a point to say that it's a PC packed in to 1U, 2U or whatever format of casing you prefer and optimised for use as a server, it can be used as PC no doubt about that ! manjo === Subject: Re: Please don't > -commodore vs spectrum > -pc vs mac - MS-Windows-PC vs Mac-OS-X-PC > -linux vs windows - Linux-PC vs MS-Windows-PC > Let's just stick to the fact that MAC is changed a lot from what it was > -it runs WINDOWS so it's a PC what more proof do you need ? The iMac is a PC. The MacPro is a Workstation and XServe is a Server-System. Again: Personal Computer: simple system designed for one standard user. Workstation: powerful system designed for a demanding user (do I hear hard core gamer?) Server: powerful system designed for more then one user. MS-Windows, Linux and Mac OS X are operating system (more or less) suitable for any of those hardware types. > Heck someone mentioned servers ? > Is there a point to say that it's a PC packed in to 1U, 2U or whatever > format of casing > you prefer and optimised for use as a server, it can be used as PC no > doubt about that ! Sure a system build for more lets say 20 user can be used for just one user as well (but note that some server systems come without graphic card). But it does not work the other way round: A PC won't be able to cope with the demands of lets say 20 users. Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: Please don't ........... >Again: Personal Computer: simple system designed for one standard user. >Workstation: powerful system designed for a demanding user (do I hear >hard core gamer?) >Server: powerful system designed for more then one user. Then, what do you call a less powerful system designed to serve more than one user? E.g. a print server in your home network..... it could be an older PC which otherwise would have been discarded, but now it's loaded with software designed to serve multiple users. Or it could be a quite small device working as a server, but it's certainly not powerful by today's standards... -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schlyter, Grev Turegatan 40, SE-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN e-mail: pausch at stjarnhimlen dot se WWW: http://stjarnhimlen.se/ === Subject: Re: Please don't > ........... >> Again: >> Personal Computer: simple system designed for one standard user. >> Workstation: powerful system designed for a demanding user (do I hear >> hard core gamer?) >> Server: powerful system designed for more then one user. > > Then, what do you call a less powerful system designed to serve more > than one user? E.g. a print server in your home network..... it could > be an older PC which otherwise would have been discarded, but now it's > loaded with software designed to serve multiple users. Or it could be > a quite small device working as a server, but it's certainly not powerful > by today's standards... Quote Wikipedia: ------------------------- A personal computer (PC) is any computer whose original sales price, size, and capabilities make it useful for individuals, and which is intended to be operated directly by an end user, with no intervening computer operator. ------------------------- not the original and intended here. Of course PC's can be re-used for anything else as well. I recently visited CERN and they use up-market PC hardware as server grit. Cheaper then dedicated server hardware. Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: Please don't -but NOTE that you again deviated from the point And the point is not in: -PC definition (or pc at all) -home computer definition -BSD, linux, windows whatever (after all it's MAC OSX) -any definition at all (it is all clear -at least to me) It's simply: MAC is not the thing it was before -these days it's a common PC in atractive casing (sometimes not) a bit overpriced though -it used to be hardware and software platform of its own -now comes down to: MAC is a brand of PC with proprietary OS PC is short for IBM PC (and kompatibles) as it used to be called back then I don't use the IBM part since IBM has nothing to do with it (unless you bought IBM brand of course) -meaning those kompatibles are the ones that rule the world and set the standard -PC is all it ever was, just got bigger and better (simply more) -in this context HP brand PCs are much more appealing to me than Apple/MAC brand Sidestory: -where I come from we had a bounch of interesting people who were so amazed with MACs that at some point they were pushing MACs into schools -it was ridiculous since PC was and is standard machine in most homes across the planet and is more affordable and configurable for any specific use. -i admit that's the moment when i developed some kind of alergy thowards MACs (so from that point and the fact that I'm a PC i'm over-biased and my argument is not worth much, but maybe worth considering) As allways i respect individual preference, even though sometimes silly for me. -MACs are in did in rare/some marekting offices (kept like jewels) shining there on the corner table/office while PC does all the work no matter if it's graphic, math, text, driving printing machinery and so on. use science ! manjo === Subject: Re: Please don't I see the direction where it goes now, some of us are now playing smart ans twisting and turning words ! Of course everybody knows that PC is a personal computer and if it's not a server or something else then it must be a PC. Even Pocket PC is a PC :-) But when we talk about PC most people assume x86/x64 based machine when we talk about MAC we assume Apple computer based on their processors Motorolla, PowerPC or G-something. PC was always built with customizable add-on hardware, on the other hand MAC was built and sold as is. perferct for everyone and everything In that view MAC was more similar to home computers of early days. While PC was very modular, upgradable, customizable and remained so to this day, using same(modernised) platform as in early days. I didn't intend to get any deeper in to this subject, because it's all obvious but i thought just to clear the PC name thing. manjo === Subject: Re: Please don't > Of course everybody knows that PC is a personal computer > and if it's not a server or something else > then it must be a PC. Even Pocket PC is a PC :-) Nope - it could also be a Workstation. Or a pocked calculator. Or a digital satellite receiver. The later would be an embedded system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_system > But when we talk about PC most people assume x86/x64 based machine > when we talk about MAC we assume Apple computer based on their > processors Motorolla, PowerPC or G-something. What most people assume is not always right. If fact the opposite is true the uninformed majority often assumes wrong. > PC was always built with customizable add-on hardware, > on the other hand MAC was built and sold as is. > perfect for everyone and everything But a Pocket PC can't be enhanced either. You are contradicting yourself. BTW: Laptops and tablets are considered personal computers as well. And they too can't be enhanced. > In that view MAC was more similar to home computers of early days. So a quite a few other PCs. > While PC was very modular, upgradable, customizable and remained > so to this day, using same(modernised) platform as in early days. What you describe here is a desktop computer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_computer A desktop computer is one of the many forms a personal computer take. > I didn't intend to get any deeper in to this subject, because it's all > obvious but i thought just to clear the PC name thing. Nope, it's not as obvious as you think. But maybe you thing more in terms of the IBM Personal Computer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Personal_Computer Which is a desktop computer, is enhanceable, does uses Intel CPUs, uses a Microsoft Operating system and was discontinued 2 April 1987. However, quote wikipedia: ---------------------------------------- Alongside microcomputer and home computer, the term personal computer was already in use before 1981. It was used as early as 1972 to characterize Xerox PARC's Alto. ---------------------------------------- Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: [OT] PC =?UTF-8?B?4omgIE1TLVdpbmRvd3MgKFdhczogUGxlYXNlIGRvbid0KQ==?= > Apple (Mac) in terms of hardware is no more ! > all there is now is MAC OSX > (more-less cripled down linux distro supporting MAC hardware > identified by BIOS serials and such) Do get your facts together before ranting: The base of Mac OS X is Darwin which is a BSD descendent. And BSD is usualy considered a Linux competitor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X Also it's crippled down. Unlike Linux and all other BSD implementations Mac OS X v10.5 is a certified Unix system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_UNIX_Specification#Mac_OS_X > it realy is a PC packed and branded in to MAC casing > and it DOES run Windows (if users choose to make it so) But this was my point all a long (you should have followed the links and you would have seen.): A PC (Personal Computer) is a system with simple hardware designed to be used by on person doing simple standard work. The used operating system is not part of the definition. And therefore the MacMini and the iMac are indeed PCs. I am not posting this because I am a Mac-Fanboy (I use Window / Linux / Solaris as well) but because I like to point out that: PC [Hyphen] MS-Windows Because PC is a hardware description and MS-Windows is software system. A bit like HP50 [Hyphen] RPL, even true some might think so. But RPL is also used in the HP49, HP48 etc. pp. and the HP50 can also be programmed in C. One is the name for a Software the other for piece of Hardware. Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Easter Eggs posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) If I type RULES on my HP 48 or 49G+ I get a list of software engineers for these particular calculators. Are there any other Easter Eggs? === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming posting-account=iOmfpgoAAABo05oWDDJweprpx4VPlnCT .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I have a HP 50g calculator, just want to write some simple program, > like input R, the program calculates the circle area; > input L, H, W, then the program can calculate the surface area, etc. All things representable by formulas can be calculated directly > using the numeric solver (just as on the HP42S), > and you can save a set of your own equations, > then choose any one to solve (for any variable, > not just calculating one particular variable from the others); > for example, in RPN mode: 'A=pi*R^2' 'CIRCA' STO 'A=(L*H+H*W+W*L)*2' 'BOXA' STO << Choose formula 9 TVARS 1 CHOOSE > { STEQ 30 MENU } IFT >> 'MYEQS' STO The 'MYEQS' program chooses any formula in the current directory, > then starts the menu-based solver (like that of the HP42S). You can also just start the form-based numeric solver > (Right-shift NUM.SLV Solve Equation) > and choose an equation using the form, > rather than using a program. A slight expansion of the 'MYEQS' program could permit > navigating through a directory tree, > as well as picking equations from a single directory. Solving equations like this > will store additional variables named in the formulas, > containing numeric data; > when you no longer need to save any such variables, > you can purge them all from the current directory, > plus any left-over current equation(s) and solver data using: << { 0 28 } TVARS { EQ Mpar } + PURGE >> 'PGEQ' STO Numeric values with attached units (e.g. 3.2 cm) > may be included in this clean-up > by expanding the list of object types to { 0 13 28 } All of the above works in all HP48G/49G/50G series. what's these ' ' slashes in the codes mean ? I cna't find in the 50G user guide. example: << Choose formula 9 TVARS 1 CHOOSE { STEQ 30 MENU } IFT >> 'MYEQS' STO << { 0 28 } TVARS { EQ Mpar } + PURGE >> 'PGEQ' STO === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming > what's these ' ' slashes in the codes mean ? I cna't find in the 50G > user guide. > example: > > << Choose formula 9 TVARS 1 CHOOSE > { STEQ 30 MENU } IFT >> 'MYEQS' STO > > << { 0 28 } TVARS { EQ Mpar } + PURGE >> 'PGEQ' STO They mark that what follows represents a special character which does not appear in the ASCII alphabet. << and >> represent the symbols which look like << and >> on the hp50, and mark the beginning end ending of a program. === Subject: Re: HP 50g simple programming cut and paste to notepad save and transfer it your calc Trigraphs represent calculator special characters what's these ' ' slashes in the codes mean ? I cna't find in the 50G user guide. example: << Choose formula 9 TVARS 1 CHOOSE { STEQ 30 MENU } IFT >> 'MYEQS' STO << { 0 28 } TVARS { EQ Mpar } + PURGE >> 'PGEQ' STO === Subject: Re: HP 35s Stack: Bug? Importance: Normal >>RPL is not RPN. When you type a number, it is entered directly on the >>stack. This means 2 (is already on the stack) ENTER (makes a copy). >>Take a look at the part of the manual describing RPN operation. You >>will need to take a look at it. I do the same thing when switching >>back and forth from the 50 to the 35. Takes a few mins before I stop >>doing it. >>TW > > > The HP41C/V/X does the same thing. I have a similar problem when > switching back an forth from the 41 and 48/49/50 series I'm more used to the HP 35/45/65/67 so I have a problem when using the newer machines! The 35s brings back many happy memories. Tom Lake === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators On 2008-10-16 01:37:33 +1100, Eric Rechlin said: > HP would like to hear what your favorite vintage (no-longer-manufactured) HP > calculators are. They have put up a short survey here: > > http://www.zoomerang.com/Survey/?p=WEB228BU68XY93 > > Please fill it out and show your support for your favorite classic HP > calculators! I really think HP is listening to the wrong people regarding what their next product should be. It seems that the only people they are talking to are people who were HP users back in the 80s through events like the HPCC conference. Sure, HP made some great stuff back then, but really how many people are likely going to buy a revamp of a HP15C, a 41CX other than the 100 people following this newsgroup. Yet, everytime I attend the conference that's what the people there will ask for, and unfortunately HP is listening. We be gaining market share that way. Jean-Yves -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators <48f98f15$0$13233$426a74cc@news.free.fr On 2008-10-16 01:37:33 +1100, Eric Rechlin said: > HP would like to hear what your favorite vintage >> (no-longer-manufactured) HP >> calculators are. They have put up a short survey here: >> http://www.zoomerang.com/Survey/?p=WEB228BU68XY93 >> Please fill it out and show your support for your favorite classic HP >> calculators! I really think HP is listening to the wrong people regarding what their > next product should be. I disagree here. HP should be trying to find out what they did right then and why they are not as successful now. > It seems that the only people they are talking to are people who were HP > users back in the 80s through events like the HPCC conference. Sure, HP made some great stuff back then, but really how many people are > likely going to buy a revamp of a HP15C, a 41CX other than the 100 > people following this newsgroup. I am not shure about that. I have tried several HP emultators - great stuff, you can try all sorts of calculators without need to buy them. Example: HP 42s vs HP 41cx. While the 42 has many more functions - some of which I liked - it lacked in one point: The user and alpha key. I found it highly 42 menu system to enter alpha characres highly cumbersome. Other hand: the user key - give any key a user defined function - great idea. But of those ideas could be transported into the current age with a current state of the art calculator. I think the HP 35s was a step into the right direction but usability could be a bit better and an I/O port would have been nice. And my most used emulator: A HP 16c. Now if only I would have know at the time I would have got one (current eBay prices are just sky high). Domain specific calculators (like the voyagers) is the way to go. Martin -- === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators [...] > And my most used emulator: A HP 16c. Now if only I would have know at > the time I would have got one (current eBay prices are just sky high). > Domain specific calculators (like the voyagers) is the way to go. Interesting, you mention the HP-16c an the next day when cleaning the garage I run across mine, also my HP-71B, HP28C and HP28S. Even more interesting is that I removed the batteries whenever they went into storage and look great. Think I'll dig up some batteries and give my 15c some company. Just today I saw at the dollar store a pack of 357s, about 8 for a buck. Rich > Martin > === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators X > And my most used emulator: A HP 16c. Now if only I would have know at the > time I would have got one (current eBay prices are just sky high). Domain > specific calculators (like the voyagers) is the way to go. Martin > -- I would sell my HP-16C (still working) for a sky-high price without a proper IT Consulting job I just have to sell everything valuable (and easy to ship) man - it hurts !!! === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators >> And my most used emulator: A HP 16c. Now if only I would have know at the >> time I would have got one (current eBay prices are just sky high). Domain >> specific calculators (like the voyagers) is the way to go. > I would sell my HP-16C (still working) for a sky-high price > without a proper IT Consulting job I just have to sell everything valuable > (and easy to ship) man - it hurts !!! Depending on condition, scratches (or the lack of them), handbook (or the lack of it) you can get between US$ 250 to US$ 400. Be prepared to ship outside the US - the are even more scares here in Europe. Currently there is a buy now for US$ 489.00 and a auction with 13 bidders and 5 days to go. Good luck to you. Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators manuals...manuals... only 34C OHb &PG + 15C AFHb with 16C, say 5000 Euros in Europe? (I was hoping for a thousand...) It's extremely hard to give up - even when in need for £ $ ¥ > And my most used emulator: A HP 16c. Now if only I would have know at > the > time I would have got one (current eBay prices are just sky high). > Domain > specific calculators (like the voyagers) is the way to go. > I would sell my HP-16C (still working) for a sky-high price >> without a proper IT Consulting job I just have to sell everything >> valuable >> (and easy to ship) man - it hurts !!! Depending on condition, scratches (or the lack of them), handbook (or > the lack of it) you can get between US$ 250 to US$ 400. Be prepared to > ship outside the US - the are even more scares here in Europe. Currently there is a buy now for US$ 489.00 and a auction with 13 > bidders and 5 days to go. Good luck to you. Martin > -- > mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net > Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators posting-account=iY7uIQoAAAAuLKgvClKqajiXarQcLhyc Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > On 2008-10-16 01:37:33 +1100, Eric Rechlin said: > HP would like to hear what your favorite vintage (no-longer-manufactured) HP > calculators are. They have put up a short survey here: >http://www.zoomerang.com/Survey/?p=WEB228BU68XY93 > Please fill it out and show your support for your favorite classic HP > calculators! I really think HP is listening to the wrong people regarding what their > next product should be. It seems that the only people they are talking to are people who were > HP users back in the 80s through events like the HPCC conference. Sure, HP made some great stuff back then, but really how many people > are likely going to buy a revamp of a HP15C, a 41CX other than the 100 > people following this newsgroup. Yet, everytime I attend the conference that's what the people there > will ask for, and unfortunately HP is listening. We be gaining market share that way. Jean-Yves -- > They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, > deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) May I ask who were the people you were listening to before you started the Qonos project? Regrds, Reth === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Oct 17, 3:09am, Martin Krischik choose those 5 samples randomly. Do note that the HP-12C is missing > (which is still in production) and there question for what we would be > prepared to pay. They are most likely have a plan of some kind. For example a revival of > one or more of those 5 named calculators. If they where considering > other systems as well they would be on the list. There are basically two choices on the list: Voyager series or HP41. Bringing back any of the Voyagers should cost HP next to nothing since the 12C is still in production. The only difference is in the key labels and the firmware, and I'm sure the old firmware of the 10/11/15/16 is still lying around somewhere at HP. What I really want is a simple, low cost, non-programmable RPN-only scientific calculator with acceptable keyboard feedback. Preferably this should be in the $20-30 range at most, if possible. S.C. === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators I second that. I hate going home and having to use a normal calculator to do the banking or some other menial task. -- Dan Field (Graduate Surveyor) On Oct 17, 3:09 am, Martin Krischik choose those 5 samples randomly. Do note that the HP-12C is missing > (which is still in production) and there question for what we would be > prepared to pay. They are most likely have a plan of some kind. For example a revival of > one or more of those 5 named calculators. If they where considering > other systems as well they would be on the list. There are basically two choices on the list: Voyager series or HP41. Bringing back any of the Voyagers should cost HP next to nothing since the 12C is still in production. The only difference is in the key labels and the firmware, and I'm sure the old firmware of the 10/11/15/16 is still lying around somewhere at HP. What I really want is a simple, low cost, non-programmable RPN-only scientific calculator with acceptable keyboard feedback. Preferably this should be in the $20-30 range at most, if possible. S.C. === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators Am 17.10.2008, 22:29 Uhr, schrieb : > On Oct 17, 3:09am, Martin Krischik HP did not make this survey for the pure fun of it. And they did not >> choose those 5 samples randomly. Do note that the HP-12C is missing >> (which is still in production) and there question for what we would be >> prepared to pay. >> They are most likely have a plan of some kind. For example a revival of >> one or more of those 5 named calculators. If they where considering >> other systems as well they would be on the list. > There are basically two choices on the list: Voyager series or HP41. > Bringing back any of the Voyagers should cost HP next to nothing since > the 12C is still in production. AFAIK the curretn HP 12C use a different hardware. > The only difference is in the key > labels and the firmware, and I'm sure the old firmware of the > 10/11/15/16 is still lying around somewhere at HP. With would only partialy usefull with old hardware. > What I really want is a simple, low cost, non-programmable RPN-only > scientific calculator with acceptable keyboard feedback. Preferably > this should be in the $20-30 range at most, if possible. Interersing. I am lokking fo a HP 16C. The HP 16C emulation is my most used system at the moment. Of course the HP 16C which are sold at eBay have sky rocked prices. Besides, a 14-Segment display with 32 characters would be more appropiate for an calculator doing hex and binary calculations. I think HP is looking for there past success, the sky rocket eBay prices of the vintage calculators and wonder what theyy did right at the time and what they are doing wrong today - and then there might be a revival system. Martin -- === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators You think the CPU is still in production? Me thinks: no! One have to re-program the complete HP-15C and while HP is doing this, they could add more memory, more labels, etc... HP did not make this survey for the pure fun of it. And they did not > choose those 5 samples randomly. Do note that the HP-12C is missing > (which is still in production) and there question for what we would be > prepared to pay. They are most likely have a plan of some kind. For example a revival of > one or more of those 5 named calculators. If they where considering > other systems as well they would be on the list. There are basically two choices on the list: Voyager series or HP41. Bringing back any of the Voyagers should cost HP next to nothing since the 12C is still in production. The only difference is in the key labels and the firmware, and I'm sure the old firmware of the 10/11/15/16 is still lying around somewhere at HP. What I really want is a simple, low cost, non-programmable RPN-only scientific calculator with acceptable keyboard feedback. Preferably this should be in the $20-30 range at most, if possible. S.C. === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators Am 18.10.2008, 09:22 Uhr, schrieb Veli-Pekka Nousiainen : > You think the CPU is still in production? > Me thinks: no! > One have to re-program the complete HP-15C > and while HP is doing this, > they could add more memory, more labels, etc... Which would not be to difficult since they have most of the algorithm readily available. But I rather think they might try a revival like the HP 35s - combining what they did right in the past with current technology. Anything else would not make sense. And it is precisly what I would do if I was in change: Ask the old timer why they would dosh out $350 for a HP 16 on eBay which is more then double of the current top range model (50g). This should realy nag any manager: The customer is prepared to pay twice the money for a 20 year old mid to high range model then for current top range model. Martin -- === Subject: Re: partial fractions and complex roots in 50g >If you try it with RECT (rectangular coordinates) mode and Complex >mode both turned on, I think it will do what you want. Having the >coordinates in Polar or Spherical modes causes some complex >expressions to be displayed in polar form, r*exp(i*theta), instead of >rectangular form, a+bi. I've noticed this mode setting also affects >certain integrals. > Could you please point me to ANY HP50 manual where the above procedure is described? A.L. == 2314 === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > another issue with the supplied arm-elf-gcc from your hpgcc.tgz > package the hpgccenv script sets the HPGCC environment variable to a cygwin- > styled > path, but the arm-elf-gcc doesn't like this path format. it seems, > that it only > works with a DOS styled format in order to find include and library > pathes. see log from the bash: ~/hpgcc/test $ make clean > rm -f *.o > rm -f *.hp > rm -f *.exe ############################################ dos-style > ########################################## ~/hpgcc/test $ echo $HPGCC > I:/cygwin tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2 ~/hpgcc/test $ make hello.hp > arm-elf-gcc -mtune=arm920t -mcpu=arm920t -mlittle-endian -fomit-frame- > pointer -m > soft-float -Wall -Os -II:/cygwin tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2/include -LI:/ > cygwin tiwag/hp > gcc/2.0SP2/lib -mthumb-interwork -mthumb -c hello.c > arm-elf-ld -LI:/cygwin tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2/lib -T VCld.script I:/ > cygwin tiwag/hpg > cc/2.0SP2/lib/crt0.o hello.o -lhpg -lhplib -lgcc -o hello.exe > elf2hp hello.exe hello.hp > rm hello.o hello.exe ############################################################################# ################ > OK ~/hpgcc/test $ make clean > rm -f *.o > rm -f *.hp > rm -f *.exe ~/hpgcc/test $ cd .. > ~/hpgcc $ . hpgccenv ~/hpgcc $ cd test ######################################### cygwin-style > ########################################## ~/hpgcc/test $ echo $HPGCC > /cygdrive/i/cygwin tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2 ~/hpgcc/test $ make hello.hp > arm-elf-gcc -mtune=arm920t -mcpu=arm920t -mlittle-endian -fomit-frame- > pointer -m > soft-float -Wall -Os -I/cygdrive/i/cygwin tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2/include - > L/cygdrive > /i/cygwin tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2/lib -mthumb-interwork -mthumb -c hello.c > hello.c:1:21: error: hpgcc49.h: No such file or directory > hello.c: In function 'main': > hello.c:5: warning: implicit declaration of function 'clear screen' > hello.c:6: warning: implicit declaration of function 'printf' > hello.c:6: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in > function 'prin > tf' > hello.c:7: error: 'WAIT CANCEL' undeclared (first use in this > function) > hello.c:7: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once > hello.c:7: error: for each function it appears in.) > make: *** [hello.o] Error 1 ############################################################################# ############## > ERROR this could be confusing for beginners ... Looks like you are using drive I: Edit hpgccenv, change /cygdrive/c to /cygdrive/i I'll fix it in next doc update. === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > Looks like you are using drive I: > Edit hpgccenv, change /cygdrive/c to /cygdrive/i > I'll fix it in next doc update. additionally your solution does not work, if you have installed cygwin and the arm-elf-gcc compiler on another drive than you want to compile a source file. e.g. my configuration: what install-path (top-level) cygwin system I:/cygwin user-home-dir I:/cygwin_tiwag arm-elf-gcc I:/cygwin_tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2/bin hp projects D:/HP50/devel with the include-path for hpgcc which is set by your hpgccenv script (HPGCC=/cygwin_tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2) you can compile the samples installed on drive I: (e.g. in I:/cygwin_tiwag/hpgcc/test/hello.c ) but you can't compile anything on drive D: (e.g. D:/HP50/devel/math/ filter/dsp2coef/dsp2coef.c ) -- tiwag === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial here is a modified hpgccenv which works with all my different source locations and cygwin installed somewhere. ############################################### ## ## hpgccenv ## export PATH=$PATH:$PWD/2.0SP2/bin HPGCCBASEPATH=$(cygpath -m $PWD) export HPGCC=$HPGCCBASEPATH/2.0SP2 export HPAPINEROOT=$HPGCCBASEPATH/2.0SP2-hpapine ## debug #echo HPGCCBASEPATH=$HPGCCBASEPATH #echo HPGCC=$HPGCC #echo HPAPINEROOT=$HPAPINEROOT ## ############################################### -- tiwag === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > here is a modified hpgccenv which works with all my different > source locations and cygwin installed somewhere. ############################################### > ## > ## hpgccenv > ## export PATH=$PATH:$PWD/2.0SP2/bin HPGCCBASEPATH=$(cygpath -m $PWD) export HPGCC=$HPGCCBASEPATH/2.0SP2 > export HPAPINEROOT=$HPGCCBASEPATH/2.0SP2-hpapine ## debug > #echo HPGCCBASEPATH=$HPGCCBASEPATH > #echo HPGCC=$HPGCC > #echo HPAPINEROOT=$HPAPINEROOT ## > ############################################### -- > tiwag === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > here is a modified hpgccenv which works with all my different > source locations and cygwin installed somewhere. ############################################### > ## > ## hpgccenv > ## export PATH=$PATH:$PWD/2.0SP2/bin HPGCCBASEPATH=$(cygpath -m $PWD) export HPGCC=$HPGCCBASEPATH/2.0SP2 > export HPAPINEROOT=$HPGCCBASEPATH/2.0SP2-hpapine ## debug > #echo HPGCCBASEPATH=$HPGCCBASEPATH > #echo HPGCC=$HPGCC > #echo HPAPINEROOT=$HPAPINEROOT ## > ############################################### -- > tiwag === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial Looks like you are using drive I: Edit hpgccenv, change /cygdrive/c to /cygdrive/i I'll fix it in next doc update. echo $HPGCC now delivers /cygwin_tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2 i've downloaded your hpgcc.tgz at beginning of Oct. 2008. conclusion now i understood, that the arm-elf-gcc include path don't want the prefix /cygdrive/whateverdrive in order to work ok. i missed this with my experiments, therefore i came to the solution with the dos- styled path. wired -- tiwag === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial Looks like you are using drive I: > Edit hpgccenv, change /cygdrive/c to /cygdrive/i > I'll fix it in next doc update. I encountered the same problem and I was using drive C: === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > Looks like you are using drive I: > Edit hpgccenv, change /cygdrive/c to /cygdrive/i > I'll fix it in next doc update. I encountered the same problem and I was using drive C: Wonderful. Cygwin probably changed again. Ok, help me out here, I need to know: 1. OS version 2. When did you download hpgcc.tgz 3. What does your hpgccenv look like 4. The output of the following commands: cd ~/hpgcc . hpgccenv (thats DOT SPACE hpgccenv) echo $HPGCC echo $PWD === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > I need to know: 1. OS version > 2. When did you download hpgcc.tgz > 3. What does your hpgccenv look like > 4. The output of the following commands: cd ~/hpgcc > . hpgccenv (thats DOT SPACE hpgccenv) > echo $HPGCC > echo $PWD OS Version: W2K SP4 5.00.2195 Downloaded hpcgcc.tgz 08/31/2008 hpgccenv NOW looks like the following: # PFS: I reversed the order of the PATH in the following line export PATH=$PWD/2.0SP2/bin:$PATH if pwd | grep cygdrive >/dev/null 2>&1 then export HPGCC=$PWD/2.0SP2 export HPGCC=${HPGCC##/cygdrive/c} else export HPGCC=$PWD/2.0SP2 fi # PFS: Had to provide the complete path from the root of C: # PFS: The compiler did not work with only the path from # PFS: virtual root of the Unix like environment # PFS: /Programming is at C:Programming export HPGCC=/Programming/cygwin$PWD/2.0SP2 export HPAPINEROOT=$PWD/2.0SP2-hpapine echo $PWD = /home/Paul/hpgcc Output of . hpgccenv = no ouput at all echo $HPGCC before running hpgccenv = C:ProgrammingHPGCC echo $HPGCC after running hpgccenv = /Programming/cygwin/home/Paul/hpgcc/2.0SP2 Paul === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > I need to know: 1. OS version > 2. When did you download hpgcc.tgz > 3. What does your hpgccenv look like > 4. The output of the following commands: cd ~/hpgcc > . hpgccenv (thats DOT SPACE hpgccenv) > echo $HPGCC > echo $PWD OS Version: W2K SP4 5.00.2195 > Downloaded hpcgcc.tgz 08/31/2008 > hpgccenv NOW looks like the following: > # PFS: I reversed the order of the PATH in the following line > export PATH=$PWD/2.0SP2/bin:$PATH > if pwd | grep cygdrive >/dev/null 2>&1 > then > export HPGCC=$PWD/2.0SP2 > export HPGCC=${HPGCC##/cygdrive/c} > else > export HPGCC=$PWD/2.0SP2 > fi # PFS: Had to provide the complete path from the root of C: > # PFS: The compiler did not work with only the path from > # PFS: virtual root of the Unix like environment > # PFS: /Programming is at C:Programming > export HPGCC=/Programming/cygwin$PWD/2.0SP2 > export HPAPINEROOT=$PWD/2.0SP2-hpapine echo $PWD = /home/Paul/hpgcc > Output of . hpgccenv = no ouput at all > echo $HPGCC before running hpgccenv = C:ProgrammingHPGCC > echo $HPGCC after running hpgccenv = > /Programming/cygwin/home/Paul/hpgcc/2.0SP2 Paul Will you download hpgcc.tgz again and try? I've just updated it. === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > Will you download hpgcc.tgz again and try? I've just updated it. I downloaded the new hpgcc.tgz earlier when I saw your post announcing that you had upgraded the hpgccenv file. However, I had already replaced my hpgccenv with the text provided by tiwag. I then changed to ~hpgcc/test and issued 'make clean' followed by 'make hello.hp' and everything went well. No errors and I have an (untested) hello.hp. At this point I assumed there was nothing else in the new tgz that I needed. Let me know if there is reason why I should reinstall hpgcc.tgz Paul === Subject: ln(exp(x)) does not always simplify, but why? ) I was looking for how to handle complex variables on my hp50g and in the search opened up science and engineering mathematics with the hp49g vol. 1 to chapter 5. Not finding what I was after, I was still enjoying going through the information instead of just moving the search on. While reading on page 65 in the expanding ln(z) section, it is mentioned that ln(exp(i*theta)) does not get simplified to i*theta and has the user manually edit it to such. I experimented a bit and found that any case involving a complex part in the exponent does not simplify if the inverse functions are in the order of ln(exp()) but does if ln is in the inside. It does simplify okay if working with reals. When working with variables, the CASDIR directory contains the list REALASSUME; any variables in that list will let the expression simplify when in complex mode. I thought I have read about the contents of that directory, but I do not recall where. Is there a different way to keep a variable to always be interpreted as complex other than both going to complex mode 'and' keeping it out of the real list? What is the mathematical reason for not simplifying ln(exp(x)) unless 'x' is handled as a variable of type real. Is the book's manual edit correct or mathematically faulty in some cases; is there any point at which it is undefined or causes other issues? Numerically, ln(exp(i)) returns (1.15e-14,1) which appears to be (0,1) with roundoff errors. Should I just round these results manually or is there a suggested way to work with them to have had the results come out as would be expected? Is this just accuracy limitations of exp() and ln() functions showing themselves? Ed Sutton, III === Subject: Re: ln(exp(x)) does not always simplify, but why? > I was looking for how to handle complex variables on my hp50g and in > the search opened up science and engineering mathematics with the > hp49g vol. 1 to chapter 5. Not finding what I was after, I was still > enjoying going through the information instead of just moving the > search on. > While reading on page 65 in the expanding ln(z) section, it is > mentioned that ln(exp(i*theta)) does not get simplified to i*theta and > has the user manually edit it to such. I experimented a bit and found > that any case involving a complex part in the exponent does not > simplify if the inverse functions are in the order of ln(exp()) but > does if ln is in the inside. It does simplify okay if working with > reals. > When working with variables, the CASDIR directory contains the list > REALASSUME; any variables in that list will let the expression > simplify when in complex mode. I thought I have read about the > contents of that directory, but I do not recall where. Is there a > different way to keep a variable to always be interpreted as complex > other than both going to complex mode 'and' keeping it out of the real > list? > What is the mathematical reason for not simplifying ln(exp(x)) > unless 'x' is handled as a variable of type real. Is the book's manual > edit correct or mathematically faulty in some cases; is there any > point at which it is undefined or causes other issues? > Numerically, ln(exp(i)) returns (1.15e-14,1) which appears to be > (0,1) with roundoff errors. Should I just round these results manually > or is there a suggested way to work with them to have had the results > come out as would be expected? Is this just accuracy limitations of > exp() and ln() functions showing themselves > Ed Sutton, III EPSX0 IF less than EPS in CASDIR THEN eXchange it to zero END -function === Subject: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators HP would like to hear what your favorite vintage (no-longer-manufactured) HP calculators are. They have put up a short survey here: http://www.zoomerang.com/Survey/?p=WEB228BU68XY93 Please fill it out and show your support for your favorite classic HP calculators! === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators ) 1. HP48GX 2. HP41CX -- tiwag === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators > 1. HP48GX > 2. HP41CX It does not help to say it here - you need to fill in the survey. Besides: 1. HP16C 2. HP41CX Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators > 1. HP48GX > 2. HP41CX It does not help to say it here - you need to fill in the survey. Besides: you are right and i filled the survey already, but when you have a look at the survey results, you'll see, that you can't see the Others therefore i decided to post it here ;-) -- tiwag === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators > On 15 Okt., 17:50, Martin Krischik 1. HP48GX >> 2. HP41CX >> It does not help to say it here - you need to fill in the survey. Besides: you are right and i filled the survey already, > but when you have a look at the survey results, > you'll see, that you can't see the Others > therefore i decided to post it here ;-) I surprised myself by putting HP11C and HP15C as first & second choice... even though I have other, more powerful calculators, I feel those were more suited to particular applications (engineering / electrical engineering). Back when I was studying engineering, I think 20 out of 25 people in my class had the 15C. Of the remainder, two or three had HP41, there was one Casio FX702P (later replaced by a 15C), a Sharp PC1500 and and 11C (mine, later replaced by a 41C). Even without complex number support on the 11C, I was normally able to keep up with my classmates on certain exercises that involved complex numbers. That, and the fact that I never actually owned a 15C, made my place the 11C before the 15C on the survey :-) === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators HP-42S Xpander > On 15 Okt., 17:50, Martin Krischik 1. HP48GX > 2. HP41CX >> It does not help to say it here - you need to fill in the survey. > Besides: >> you are right and i filled the survey already, >> but when you have a look at the survey results, >> you'll see, that you can't see the Others >> therefore i decided to post it here ;-) I surprised myself by putting HP11C and HP15C as first & > second choice... even though I have other, more powerful calculators, > I feel those were more suited to particular applications (engineering > / electrical engineering). Back when I was studying engineering, I think 20 out of 25 > people in my class had the 15C. Of the remainder, two or three had > HP41, there was one Casio FX702P (later replaced by a 15C), a Sharp > PC1500 and and 11C (mine, later replaced by a 41C). Even without complex number support on the 11C, I was normally > able to keep up with my classmates on certain exercises that involved > complex numbers. That, and the fact that I never actually owned a 15C, > made my place the 11C before the 15C on the survey :-) === Subject: HP 35s I just got an HP 35s. The way it displays answers is a little new to me with regard to polar-rect conversion. I was wondering if anyone has a way to convert the angle portion of the answer to HMS without reentering that part? BV === Subject: Re: HP 35s >I just got an HP 35s. The way it displays answers is a little new to me > with regard to polar-rect conversion. I was wondering if anyone has a > way to convert the angle portion of the answer to HMS without reentering > that part? BV ARG ->HMS === Subject: Re: HP 35s >> I just got an HP 35s. The way it displays answers is a little new to me >> with regard to polar-rect conversion. I was wondering if anyone has a >> way to convert the angle portion of the answer to HMS without reentering >> that part? >> BV === Subject: KML File and BMP an Asus eee PC 4G surf screen. I'm currently running the Emu48 emulator in Xandros using WINE. It works perfectly but the BMP and KML files I have for the 50G were designed for higher resolutions. I'd appreciate it if someone can point me in the right direction to obtain === Subject: Re: KML File and BMP > an Asus eee PC 4G surf screen. I'm currently running the Emu48 > emulator in Xandros using WINE. It works perfectly but the BMP and KML > files I have for the 50G were designed for higher resolutions. I'd > appreciate it if someone can point me in the right direction to obtain The Eee PC 4G (and any other Eee PC sold at present with a 7-inch display) has a 480-pixel height screen. All skins I have made for Emu48 have required at least a 600-pixel height screen. After adding in space used by the GUI (taskbar, menubar, titlebar, etc), how much vertical space do you have to work with? 400 pixels? Although I haven't used Xandros, it appears it needs around 30 pixels for each of the taskbar, menubar, and titlebar, making it fairly inefficient, but hopefully on a system with a small screen such as yours, there might be a theme that is less wasteful of space. 400 pixels doesn't leave much room for buttons with a 2x screen, as 160 pixels would be taken by the screen itself, but it could be done. It just wouldn't look as authentic. Do you have a preference for whether you'd want a 2x screen and small buttons or a 1x screen and large buttons? If you ask nicely, and let me know the maximum height allowed for the BMP given your other UI elements, I might be able to be convinced to make one for you. :) Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: KML File and BMP I am using a EEE 701 running the Ubuntu-eee distribution which is a bit more efficient with screen resolution as it uses the Netbook Remix Interface. I believe that the total number of pixels used by the interface itself is about 35 px rather than the 160. However, I could certainly live with a skin that is 400 px high. Pavneet Arora > After adding in space used by the GUI (taskbar, menubar, titlebar, etc), how > much vertical space do you have to work with? 400 pixels? Although I > haven't used Xandros, it appears it needs around 30 pixels for each of the > taskbar, menubar, and titlebar, making it fairly inefficient, but hopefully > on a system with a small screen such as yours, there might be a theme that > is less wasteful of space. 400 pixels doesn't leave much room for buttons with a 2x screen, as 160 > pixels would be taken by the screen itself, but it could be done. It just > wouldn't look as authentic. Do you have a preference for whether you'd want a 2x screen and small > buttons or a 1x screen and large buttons? If you ask nicely, and let me > know the maximum height allowed for the BMP given your other UI elements, I > might be able to be convinced to make one for you. :) === Subject: Re: KML File and BMP ) people who have eee PCs and have asked about 50G emulator KMLs and BMPs. So far, 8 people I have talked to about it have told me that they would love to have one, including a former professor of mine. It would be great if you could provide a working one for the 50G. You'd make a lot of people happy. I'm currently using a 48GX on Xandros eee PC (using Emu48 on Wine) 640 X 480 and it just fits screen. In fact, a little higher and it will go past the bottom task bar. I think this is the size that would fit best for the 50G on the eee PC. I'd prefer a larger screen and smaller buttons (as long as they're readable). === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator > SpaceTime is programmable so if you know the relevant equations and > methods then, yes, you can program it to do whatever you want. Tom Lake Sad to say I download the trial (for Palm PDA) and could not do anything on the statistical area I need from this kind of device. I «ll going back to my HP50g, plenty of statistical analysis software. So ... not good for me ! Daniel. === Subject: RPN/RPL Calculator implementations, list of, regular post [long, FAQ] Supersedes: Last-Modified: 2008-10-16 Posting-Frequency: bi-monthly URL: http://www.finseth.com/rpnrpl.html Copyright: 2002-8 by Craig A. Finseth Archive-name: computer/handhelds/rpn-rpl Disclaimer: Approval for *.answers is based on form, not content. RPN/RPL Implementations Document id RPN/RPL Implementations http://www.finseth.com/rpnrpl.html Last posted 2008-10-16 reposted about every 2 months Contact: Craig A. Finseth http://www.finseth.com. Please send updates directly to the author via email. Copyright This FAQ document is Copyright 2002-8 by Craig A. Finseth. It may be reproduced and archived as part of normal network distribution. Such distribution is assumed to include CD/ROM or other bulk, unedited distribution. It may be reproduced for individual or non-commerical use provided that it is reproduced intact. It may be reproduced for commercial use provided: o it is reproduced essentially intact including all copyright notices and acknowledgements, o the publisher obtains the latest version directly from the FAQ maintainer (using the above WWW site is acceptable), o the publisher provides the FAQ maintainer with information on what collection the copy of the FAQ is in, and how that collection may be obtained, o all material modifications (other than formatting) are clearly marked. Description This document provides a list of implementations of RPN, RPL, and HP calculators for other systems. You can help make it more comprehensive by sending me additional information and/or updates. To be included in this list, an implementation must: o implement at least a standard 4-level RPN calculator. Minor variations (e.g., 3 or 5 levels) do not preclude being listed. Implementations that include both RPN and algebraic modes are eligible. o implement an RPL calculator. o implement a clone (or near-clone) of any Hewlett-Packard calculator, even if it is an algebraic-only model. The following information is included for each implementation: Implementations are listed alphabetically by name. If the implementation emulates or approximates a specific calculator and it is not obvious from the name which calculator is emulated, the emulated calculator model is given in parentheses. The *LAST* *CHANGED/VERIFIED* line contains the date that the entry was last changed or an explict looks ok to me was received by the FAQ maintainer. The *ORIGINAL* *DISTRIBUTION* is the date (or partial date) of the first release. It is in YYYY-MM-DD format. The *VERSION* is the latest known version. It is probably out of date. The *ENVIRONMENT* is the operating environment. This is a very high-level description: consult the documentation on the product for any specifics. The *ORGANIZATION* is the name of and contact information for the implementor or current maintainer. The *STATUS* is one of o no longer available: Self-explanatory. o free: The implementation is available to most people at no charge. Even such free implementations may have restrictions: consult information about the particular implementation. Where available, information on how to obtain a copy is also listed. o shareware: Self-explanatory. o not free: The implementation is for sale. Contact the vendor for specifics. Many of the names of the implementations in this list are trademarked. Specific trademarks are not called out. The site http://www.hp41.org also has a list. Table of Contents Implementations Available for PCs: Linux, DOS, Windows, Macintosh, Unix Calc41 name: Calc41 last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: ? status: not free Note: was sold by EduCALC. Calculator.org name: Calculator.org / Calc 98 last changed/verified: 2008-03-06 version: 5.6 environment: Windows, web, handhelds organization/author: http://calculator.org status: free Emu28 name: Emu28 (includes 28C) version: 1.03 environment: Windows organization/author: Christoph Giesselink http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/emu28.htm status: free EMU42 name: EMU42 version: 0.10beta1 environment: Windows organization/author: Christoph Giesselink http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/Lewis/Hp42demo.zip http://w1.322.telia.com/~u32220482/comments_on_two_hp42s_emulators.pdf status: free Emu48 name: Emu48 (includes 38G, 39G, 40G, 48SX, 48GX, 49G) version: 1.34 environment: Windows organization/author: Christoph Giesselink http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/. status: free Emu48 name: Emu48 last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: Sebastien Carlier status: free Free42 name: Free42 (HP42S) last changed/verified: 2008-02-19 version: 1.1.13 environment: Linux and Windows organization/author: Thomas Okken http://home.planet.nl/~demun000/thomas_projects/free42 http://free42.sourceforge.net/42progs/index.html status: free Note: Palm and Pocket PC versions also available. HP Emulator name: HP Emulator (48GX) last changed/verified: 2002-10-29 version: 0.9.0 environment: Windows organization/author: Daniel Nilsson http://sourceforge.net/projects/hpemu status: free HP10BII Emulator name: HP10BII Emulator (48GX) version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: ? http://www.hpcc.org/links.html status: free HP-11C name: HP-11C last changed/verified: 2005-11-11 version: 1.0.7 environment: Windows organization/author: Henk von Pickartz http://boswachter.free.fr/Kalk http://www.hp16c.com status: not free HP-12C name: HP-12C version: ? environment: Windows / Macintosh organization/author: http://www.manquehue.net/rlira status: not free HP-12C name: HP-12C version: ? environment: Windows / Macintosh organization/author: http://homepage.mac.com/riclira status: not free HP-16C name: HP-16C last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: Joseph M. Newcomer Co. http://www.pgh.net/~newcomer/hp16c.htm status: free Note: Palm version also available. HP-16C name: HP-16C version: preview environment: Java organization/author: Alexander Supalov supalov@foni.net http://home.foni.net/~supalov/hp16c status: free Note: It's available for online preview at http://home.foni.net/~supalov/hp16c . It's implemented using Swing, so that you may need to add Sun's Java plugin at http://java.sun.com/plugin to get it up and running. This is an ongoing effort, and there's a number of limitations to this emulator that we are well aware of, but there may be some that we've missed. Please bear with us: all constructive feedback will be highly appreciated. HP16 Emulator name: HP-16C Emulator last changed/verified: 2005-08-19 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: Jamie O'Connell http://www.hp16c.net status: ? HP-25 Emulator name: HP-25 Emulator last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: DOS organization/author: Nigel Bromley http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/gd86/freesoft.htm status: free HP-35A Emulator name: HP-35A version: ? environment: XWindows, Unix organization/author: Peter Monta http://www.pmonta.com/calculators/hp-35/ status: free HP-41C Emulator name: HP-41C Emulator last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: Warren Furlow http://www.furlow.org status: free HP-41C Emulator name: HP-41C Emulator (Sim41?) last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: DOS organization/author: Alvaro Gerardo Suárez http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bay/4919/ http://geocities.com/algesuar status: free HP-41C, HP-45 Emulators name: HP-41C, HP-45 Emulators last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: XWindows, Unix organization/author: Eric Smith http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/hpcalc/ status: free HP-41C, HP-71B Emulators name: HP-41C, HP-71B Emulators version: ? environment: DOS organization/author: J. Garnier http://membres.lycos.fr/jeffcalc/ status: free HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator name: HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator version: 1.02 environment: Windows organization/author: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emulators/hp41epc.zip status: free HP-55A Emulator name: HP-55A Emulator version: ? environment: XWindows, Unix organization/author: Eric Smith http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/hpcalc/ status: free HP-67 Simulator name: HP-67 Simulator last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Unix, Apple GS organization/author: Christopher Neufeld http://caliban.physics.utoronto.ca/neufeld/hp67/hp67.html status: free hpcalc.org name: hpcalc.org (web site, many models) last changed/verified: 2005-02-23 version: N/A environment: various organization/author: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/ http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/programming/ status: free Note: this site has many emulators and variations. IQ-15C name: IQ-15C last changed/verified: 2006-10-19 version: N/A environment: tcl (runs anywhere tcl runs) organization/author: Torsten Manz' original version: http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/15_1_201.zip Larry Smith modified it to not require installing a font: http://www.smith-house.org:8000/IQ-15C status: free Loki and LokiBin name: Loki and LokiBin last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.0 environment: many organization/author: Craig Finseth http://www.finseth.com/#Loki status: free Note: Several implementations, including: command-line for Windows, Macintosh OS X, and Unix; system manager versions for HP95LX, HP100*, and HP200*; native GUI for Windows, Macintosh OS 8+ and OS X. Loki is a 4-function RPN calculator that does fractional input and output and units. LokiBin is a 4-function RPN calculator that does binary / octal / hex transformation and math. MPCalcRB name: MPCalcRB last changed/verified: 2008-04-14 version: ? environment: Macintosh, Linux, Windows organization/author: http://homepage.mac.com/delaneyrm/MPCalcRB.html status: free Nonpareil name: Nonpareil (many, many) last changed/verified: 2005-06-16 version: ? environment: Linux organization/author: http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com status: free Orpie name: Orpie last changed/verified: 2007-09-15 version: 1.5.1 environment: Unix/OCaml organization/author: Paul Pelzl http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~pelzlpj/orpie/ status: free PCALC name: PCALC last changed/verified: 2006-01-09 version: 3.0.2 environment: Macintosh organization/author: http://www.pcalc.com status: not free Pscalc95 name: Pscalc95 (HP-28ish) version: ? environment: HP95 and similar organization/author: http://ftp.monash.edu.au/pub/palmtop/pscalc.lzh status: free rpn name: rpn (HP42S) last changed/verified: 2005-08-15 version: BashDiff-1.29 environment: GNU Bash shell organization/author: William Park http://home.eol.ca/~parkw/index.html#bashdiff http://freshmeat.net/projects/bashdiff/ status: free (GPL) RPN Calculator name: RPN Calculator last changed/verified: 2008-03-06 version: 1.96 environment: Macintosh, Windows organization/author: http://www.rpncalculator.net/ status: not free RPL/2 name: RPL/2 (?) version: ? environment: ? organization/author: http://www.makalis.fr/~bertrand/rpl2 status: free RPN Calculator name: RPN Calculator last changed/verified: 2006-03-01 version: ? environment: Macintosh organization/author: http://www.macforth.com/downloads.html status: free Ttcalc name: Ttcalc (HP-41C) last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.3? environment: Windows organization/author: Stefan Seiwerth, mailto:Seiwerth@aol.com http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/simulate.htm http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/ftp-home/pub/cica-win3/desktop/ttbcalc13.zip status: free WRPN name: WRPN (HP-16C) last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Windows organization/author: Emmet P. Gray, mailto:GrayE@hood-emh3.army.mil http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/simulate.htm status: free X48 name: X48 (HP48GX) version: 1.2 of the port, 0.4.1 of the original emulator environment: Macintosh organization/author: Markus Fritze http:www.markus-fritze.de status: free XCALC name: XCALC last changed/verified: 2005-08-15 version: 2.6.3 environment: Windows organization/author: Bernt Ribbum http://www.tordivel.no/xcalc/ status: free Note: XCALC 2.6.3 performs calculations in the RPN style using a multi-level stack. The stack size defaults to 4 levels but can be changed by the user. This calculator has 10 storage registers and computes both in complex and real mode. There is also a binary mode available. Visit the website for a more complete description. Xxxx name: Xxxx version: ? environment: Windows (probably) organization/author: Craig Pearce status: free Said to emulate an HP style RPN calculator. Written in Visual Basic. HP Calculators Emulating Other HP Calculators HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator v1.15 for HP-48S/SX/G/G+/GX name: HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator version: 1.15 environment: HP-48S/SX/G/G+/GX organization/author: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/apps/misc/hp41e48.zip status: free HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator v1.15 for HP-49G name: HP-41C/CV/CX MicroCode Emulator version: 1.15 environment: HP4/9G organization/author: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/apps/misc/hp41e49.zip status: free HP-41X MicroCode Emulator name: HP-41X MicroCode Emulator for HP48GX/49G version: ? environment: HP48/9 Series organization/author: http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com/HP41X/index.htm status: not free HP42X MicroCode Emulator name: HP42X MicroCode Emulator for HP48GX/49G version: ? environment: HP48/9 Series organization/author: http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com/HP42X/index.htm status: not free HP-71X MicroCode Emulator name: HP-71X MicroCode Emulator for HP48GX/49G version: ? environment: HP48/9 Series organization/author: http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com/HP71X/index.htm status: not free HP-IL Emulation for HP-41X name: HP-IL Emulation for HP-41X version: ? environment: ? organization/author: http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com/HP41L/index.htm status: not free HP-IL Emulation for HP-71X name: HP-IL Emulation for HP-71X version: ? environment: ? organization/author: http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com/HP71L/index.htm status: not free Implementations Available For Palm Systems Coconut name: Coconut (HP-41C) last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 3.0.3 environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: both free and not free Free42 name: Free42 (HP42S) last changed/verified: 2005-02-18 version: 1.1.13 environment: Palm organization/author: Thomas Okken http://home.planet.nl/~demun000/thomas_projects/free42 status: free Note: Linux and Windows versions also available. HP-16C name: HP-16C last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: Joseph M. Newcomer Co. http://www.pgh.net/~newcomer/hp16c.htm status: free Note: Windows version also available. Kalc name: Kalc last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 3.0.3 environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: free MathU name: MathU last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: not free Note: related to MathU Pro and PalmCalc. MathU Pro name: MathU Pro last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: not free Note: related to MathU and PalmCalc. NeoCal name: NeoCal last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.5 environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: not free P41CV name: P41CV last changed/verified: 2006-05-15 version: 0.11 environment: Palm organization/author: Charles Lee and Eric Smith status: not free (only $7, though) Palm16c name: Palm16c (HP-16C) last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: Jake Schwartz status: not free PalmCalc name: PalmCalc last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: not free Note: related to MathU and MathU Pro. PowerOne name: PowerOne last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: not free Note: The finance version is the only one offering RPN. RPN name: RPN last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 3.04 environment: Palm organization/author: http://www.palmgear.com status: not free RPN Calculator 1.0.1 name: RPN last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.0.1 environment: Palm organization/author: ? status: free RPN2 name: RPN2 last Changed/verified: 2006-01-27 version: 2.0.1 environment: Palm organization/author: Richard Walker http://bojne.homelinux.net/rpn2.html status: free Implementations Available for Psion Systems DCalc name: DCalc (RPN) version: ? environment: Psion organization/author: Bob Hepple http://sedumi.freeshell.org/psion/index.html PocketIQ status: shareware Multifunction RPN Calculator name: Multifunction RPN Calculator (HP-16Cish) version: ? environment: Psion organization/author: Derek Johnson http://www.freeuk.net/decca status: shareware Psion48 name: Psion48 (similar to HP48SX) version: 2.1 environment: Psion organization/author: Xavier Galante http://Psion48.free.fr status: shareware Implementations Available for Texas Instruments Calculators RPN Calc name: RPN Calc version: 1.01 environment: TI-89 organization/author: Thomas Vino tomasvino yahoo.es http://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/103/10381.html status: free RPN Interface name: RPN Interface version: 2.022 environment: TI-89, TI-92+ organization/author: Lars Frederiksen http://www.paxm.org/symbulator/download/rpn.html status: free Implementations Available for Windows CE Systems EMU48CE name: EMU48CE version: 1.23 Release 2 environment: PocketPC organization/author: Leopoldo Bueno Castillo http://web.jet.es/leobueno/soft/emu48ce.exe status: free EMU48CE name: EMU48CE version: 1.23f organization/author: Pete M. Wilson http://scw.us/ce/emu48/emu48.exe status: free HP-41C Emulator name: HP-41C Emulator last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: WindowsCE organization/author: Warren Furlow http://www.furlow.org status: free Loki and LokiBin name: Loki and LokiBin last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.0 environment: JavaScript organization/author: Craig Finseth http://www.finseth.com/#Loki status: free Note: JavaScript implementation tuned for Windows CE implementation and screen size. Loki is a basic RPN machine and LokiBin does binary/octal/hex transforms and math. Pocket 12C name: Pocket 12C version: 1.5 environment: PocketPC organization/author: Lygea http://www.lygea.com/Pocket12C/V150/Pocket12CV150.exe status: not free Pocket 15C name: Pocket 15C version: 1.1 environment: PocketPC organization/author: Lygea http://www.lygea.com/Pocket15C/V110/Pocket15CV110.exe status: not free Pocket 16C name: Pocket 16C version: 1.0 environment: PocketPC organization/author: Pirrama (Lygea) http://www.pirrama.com/Pocket16C/V100/Pocket16CV100.exe status: not free Implementations Available for Other Systems (may include some of the above) Calc name: RPN last changed/verified: 2005-06-27 version: 2.03 environment: Java, cell phones organization/author: Roar Lauritzsen http://midp-calc.sourceforge.net status: free Power48 name: Power48 version: 2.0 environment: various organization/author: Robert Hildinger http://power48.mobilevoodoo.com/ status: free PSPX48 name: PSPX48 last changed/verified: 2006-04-05 version: 1.0.3 environment: PSP organization/author: http://zx81.zx81.free.fr/serendipity/ status: free Implementations Available for the Web CoCalc, CoCalc2 name: CoCalc CoCalc2 last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Java organization/author: http://www.cohort.com/ status: free HP-16C name: HP-16C last changed/verified: 2005-08-19 version: ? environment: Java organization/author: Chris Lusko http://www.hp16c.com status: ? HP-25 name: HP-25 last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Java organization/author: Larry Leinweber, mailto:larry@leinweb.com http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/simulate.htm status: free HP-35 Simulation name: HP-35 Simulation version: ? environment: JavaScript organization/author: Neil Fraser http://neil.fraser.name/software/hp-35/ status: free HP-45 Microcode Simulator name: HP-45 Microcode Simulator last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: ? environment: Java organization/author: Eric Smith http://www.hpmuseum.org/simulate/simulate.htm status: free Loki and LokiBin name: Loki and LokiBin last changed/verified: 2002-10-21 version: 1.0 environment: JavaScript organization/author: Craig Finseth http://www.finseth.com/#Loki status: free End === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... > Whoever designed this calculator, made assumption that trigonometric > functions are not needed for business calculations. Therefore, HP > 17bII+ doesn't have trigonometric functions. Surprisingly, it has > constant pi. My young cousin who got dead HP 17bII+ as birthday gift asked: > Well... How I will be calculating periodic demand? I had no answer. > We checked HP12. No trig functions. I checked my TI BA II - all trig > functions, reverse, hyperbolic and reverse... Or... Maybe I cannot find the menu entry or proper key?... A.L. You can calculate the trigs by using the solver. Different formulas are === Subject: partial fractions and complex roots in 50g Doing partial fractions with this in the denominator: s^2+10s+169 gives me a crazy result. When I simply factor this, I know why. I get something involving e^i*ATAN(12/5) etc. All I really want is (s+5-12i) (s+5+12j). I played with most of the simplification functions in the ALG and EXP&LN menus, but none really makes a difference. I know it's not too hard to do by hand, but that's not why I have this calculator. Ultimately I want to get the partial fractions with an expression like that in the denominator, which I then take the inverse Laplace transform of. It works great with real roots, just not with complex roots. === Subject: Re: partial fractions and complex roots in 50g If you try it with RECT (rectangular coordinates) mode and Complex mode both turned on, I think it will do what you want. Having the coordinates in Polar or Spherical modes causes some complex expressions to be displayed in polar form, r*exp(i*theta), instead of rectangular form, a+bi. I've noticed this mode setting also affects certain integrals. -wes On Oct 16, 6:46pm, Christoph Koehler Doing partial fractions with this in the denominator: s^2+10s+169 > gives me a crazy result. When I simply factor this, I know why. I get > something involving e^i*ATAN(12/5) etc. All I really want is (s+5-12i) > (s+5+12j). > I played with most of the simplification functions in the ALG and > EXP&LN menus, but none really makes a difference. > I know it's not too hard to do by hand, but that's not why I have this > calculator. Ultimately I want to get the partial fractions with an expression like > that in the denominator, which I then take the inverse Laplace > transform of. It works great with real roots, just not with complex > roots. === Subject: Re: partial fractions and complex roots in 50g Doing partial fractions with this in the denominator: s^2+10s+169 > gives me a crazy result. When I simply factor this, I know why. On my 50g it works like this Choose MODE CAS and check the flag for Complex, OK Then type enter x^2+10*x+169 and choose EDIT and FACTO and you get the result, you want === Subject: Re: more battery drain As a follow up, it seems my AAAs increased in capacity even more on the next charge, so it may be reasonable to assume that my batteries just weren't broken in quite yet. They were pretty new to begin with. === Subject: Re: partial fractions and complex roots in 50g > If you try it with RECT (rectangular coordinates) mode and Complex > mode both turned on, I think it will do what you want. Having the > coordinates in Polar or Spherical modes causes some complex > expressions to be displayed in polar form, r*exp(i*theta), instead of > rectangular form, a+bi. I've noticed this mode setting also affects > certain integrals. I am so glad you figured that out. That was exactly it, and it makes a lot of sense. Christoph === Subject: Re: Survey on favorite vintage HP calculators > HP would like to hear what your favorite vintage (no-longer-manufactured) HP > calculators are. They have put up a short survey here: http://www.zoomerang.com/Survey/?p=WEB228BU68XY93 Please fill it out and show your support for your favorite classic HP > calculators! I wonder if the high amount of others might be a strategic mistake on our side. HP did not make this survey for the pure fun of it. And they did not choose those 5 samples randomly. Do note that the HP-12C is missing (which is still in production) and there question for what we would be prepared to pay. They are most likely have a plan of some kind. For example a revival of one or more of those 5 named calculators. If they where considering other systems as well they would be on the list. So having Other calculator on place 1 on both favourite and second favourite might mean that there plan won't work for them and as such put an end to it. Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: HP 50g Solver > I just got an HP 50g. I'm very used to using the 48sx. > One thing I liked about the 48sx is how it stored formulas and > then you can solve any varible. How do you do that in the 50g? > I know how to use the EQW equation editor and use the STO> button > to store a formula, but how do I get it into a solver mode like the 48sx? If you would like to have the same RPN mode as the 48SX, press MODE then CHOOS [menu key] and select RPN. If you would like to have most menus like 48SX (rather than choose list menus), press MODE then FLAGS [menu key] and set flag -117 (all system flags are actually negative values). Now you can do exactly the same as what works in 48SX: 'formula' STEQ 30 MENU -or- 'formula' 'XYZ' STO 'XYZ' STEQ 30 MENU Command STEQ accomplishes 'EQ' STO with less typing. There is also a form-based solver (ever since 48GX): press APPS then Numeric solver.. then Solve equation.. You can press NXT CALC EQW to start equation writer for new equation; can someone figure out how to edit an existing equation in EQW, from within the numeric solver form? === Subject: Re: HP 50g Solver > There is also a form-based solver (ever since 48GX): > press APPS then Numeric solver.. then Solve equation.. You can press NXT CALC EQW to start equation writer for new equation; > can someone figure out how to edit an existing equation in EQW, > from within the numeric solver form? Hmm, I couldn't get EQW to show up after pressing NXT CALC. However, if you type it in, you're in the EQW and can edit the existing equation. Press Enter and OK and you're back in the num solver. An oddity with using EQW: if you have an algebraic on the stack and press the EQW key, the algebraic is ignored. But if you *type* EQW and press enter, there it is, ready for editing. === Subject: Re: HP 50g Solver > Hmm, I couldn't get EQW to show up after pressing NXT CALC. > [in Solve Equation form] Cursor-down (or EDITB) should also be able to start Eq Writer, to edit something already on the stack (but cursor-down was somehow failing me in user mode, perhaps I assigned it; it seems okay when not in that mode). The EQW command is intended for editing an item from the stack; the EQW keyboard key seems to always start EQW to create a new object (there is, after all, no legitimate empty equation object to first put on the stack, the way we can create an empty string, or an empty list). === Subject: Re: HP 50g Solver > Hmm, I couldn't get EQW to show up after pressing NXT CALC. >> [in Solve Equation form] Cursor-down (or EDITB) should also be able to start Eq Writer, > to edit something already on the stack (but cursor-down > was somehow failing me in user mode, perhaps I assigned it; > it seems okay when not in that mode). The EQW command is intended for editing an item from the stack; > the EQW keyboard key seems to always start EQW to create a new object > (there is, after all, no legitimate empty equation object > to first put on the stack, the way we can create an empty string, > or an empty list). That's the way it is :-( that's why I directed people to take a COPY and PASTE it to the EQW later it will work - even from the new SOLVER - try it! === Subject: Re: HP 50g Solver Read first the John's advices below Hold Down [Right Shift] and press [NUM.SLV] Press Soft Menu key |ROOT| Now you can STOre your formula or name from stack level 1 to EQ by [Left-Shift] and | EQ | Then press ||SOLVR Does the menu look familiar now? The only way to use EQW from the new Solver say you have already 'Y=X^2' in EQ [Left-Shift] an then press without holding [NUM.SLV] 1.Solve Equation [ENTER] Eq: 'Y=X^2' Press soft menu |EDIT| [ |->] [ |> ] (that is [Right-Shift] [Right-Cursor] [ |->] [END] (select equation) [|->] [COPY] |CANCL| Your selection here should still be on the line Eq: 'Y=X^2' [EQW] [|->] [PASTE After editing just press [ENTER] NOTE; you can use EQW to input X or Y value just press [->NUM] before [ENTER] VPN > I just got an HP 50g. I'm very used to using the 48sx. >> One thing I liked about the 48sx is how it stored formulas and >> then you can solve any varible. How do you do that in the 50g? > I know how to use the EQW equation editor and use the STO> button >> to store a formula, but how do I get it into a solver mode like the 48sx? If you would like to have the same RPN mode as the 48SX, > press MODE then CHOOS [menu key] and select RPN. If you would like to have most menus like 48SX > (rather than choose list menus), > press MODE then FLAGS [menu key] and set flag -117 > (all system flags are actually negative values). Now you can do exactly the same as what works in 48SX: 'formula' STEQ 30 MENU -or- 'formula' 'XYZ' STO > 'XYZ' STEQ 30 MENU Command STEQ accomplishes 'EQ' STO with less typing. There is also a form-based solver (ever since 48GX): > press APPS then Numeric solver.. then Solve equation.. You can press NXT CALC EQW to start equation writer for new equation; > can someone figure out how to edit an existing equation in EQW, > from within the numeric solver form? === Subject: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? Here, where I work, we have started using Emu 48 to replace our HPs as they wear out (48GXs). One of our guys has just purchased an iPhone and wanted to know if it is posible to run Emu48 on it. It looks like a perfect match, but I would have no idea where to even begin. I know nothing about programming on the Mac or the iPhone and even less about the emmulators programming. :) Has this been tried? Was there success? If so, how could I repeat it? === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > Here, where I work, we have started using Emu 48 to replace our HPs as > they wear out (48GXs). One of our guys has just purchased an iPhone > and wanted to know if it is posible to run Emu48 on it. It looks like a perfect match, but I would have no idea where to even > begin. I know nothing about programming on the Mac or the iPhone and > even less about the emmulators programming. :) Has this been tried? Was there success? If so, how could I repeat it? === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > Here, where I work, we have started using Emu 48 to replace our HPs as > they wear out (48GXs). One of our guys has just purchased an iPhone > and wanted to know if it is posible to run Emu48 on it. Technicaly: yes - you might port an exitsting Mac OS X version. Politicaly: No - there is a bann on on device progammable applications for the iPhone. === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > Here, where I work, we have started using Emu 48 to replace our HPs as >> they wear out (48GXs). One of our guys has just purchased an iPhone >> and wanted to know if it is posible to run Emu48 on it. Technicaly: yes - you might port an exitsting Mac OS X version. Politicaly: No - there is a bann on on device progammable applications for the iPhone. You can purchase an HP41CX program that is programmable for the iphone. Check the app store. === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? >> Here, where I work, we have started using Emu 48 to replace our HPs as > they wear out (48GXs). One of our guys has just purchased an iPhone > and wanted to know if it is posible to run Emu48 on it. >> Technicaly: yes - you might port an exitsting Mac OS X version. >> Politicaly: No - there is a bann on on device progammable applications >> for the iPhone. >> Martin You can purchase an HP41CX program that is programmable for the iphone. >Check the app store. It is good to hear that the HP41CX is available (looked using the iPhone the guy has, couldn't find it) but, as I understand it, I would need GX emulation for the app we run here - no I do not know why. (I do not use one myself I just keep them and Emu48 running.) I have seen a CX and while it is quite similar there are differences. There are steps that I take whenever I upload the programming to a 48GX to configure the initial environment. The way to perform some of the steps is not readily apparent on the CX. (A pipe dream INDEED: If only Palm would come out with a phone with a screen as large as the iPhones, AND running the Palm OS. It would probably take minutes to get the old Palm 48GX emmulator to run on it. As far as the person who mentioned the Treo goes: I still use mine today and cannot find anything that does one tenth of what it does for the money! If only it had an iPhone sized screen... and better bluetooth.) === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? Do you really belive Mac OSX has anything to do with iPhone ? manjo P.S. Except for half-eatten rotten apple ? === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > Do you really belive Mac OSX has anything to do with iPhone ? Yes Mac OS X and iPhone OS X do share some common ground - for example the darwin kernel. Or the Objective-C programmig language. The iPhone and the iPod Touch both run a scaled down OS X. Just the same way the Google Phone runs a scaled down Linux. Martin === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? Very nice in that case there might be a possibility BUT Do you belive also that iPhone's touchscreen iterface (finger optimized) would provide (to usable degree) reliable interface to work with ? Personally i belive it would be a pain, but i'm sure it would be a nice show-off feature of the otherwise show-off iPhone device. also i am sure they would market it as a revolutionary feature :-) Finally: At this time no emulator can emulate true 49G+ or 50G (from point of software compatibility) with. manjo === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > Finally: > At this time no emulator can emulate true 49G+ or 50G (from point of > software compatibility) > with. > Why would you want two layers of emulation? A true emulator of the 49g+/50g would have to emulate the ARM9, which runs code to emulate the Saturn. This additional layer would cause a considerable performance hit. Maybe a compromise would be to have two emulators in the same package: a Saturn emulator to run all of the calculator's normal functions, and then an ARM9 emulator to run special processor-specific code such as HPGCC. === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > Why would you want two layers of emulation? A true emulator of the > 49g+/50g would have to emulate the ARM9, which runs code to emulate > the Saturn. This additional layer would cause a considerable > performance hit. > Maybe a compromise would be to have two emulators in the same package: > a Saturn emulator to run all of the calculator's normal functions, and > then an ARM9 emulator to run special processor-specific code such as > HPGCC. Not really an option because: Satrun emulator and ARM environment interact closely and many HPGCC programs return results or take parameters from stack (Saturn environment) HP Emulator code can't run directly on host OS because of the surounding hardware difference and CPU setup, ARM execution core itself helps just a bit (opcodes are emulated with less navie OP's) If we would like to run HP emulator natively we would have to kill the host OS temporarily, reconfigure the hardware and CPU and then run EMU. Or reconfigure EMU to some point to be able to run on hardware setup specific to target platform. More-less it would be like writing a virtual machine which in the end is not much different from ARM emulator on ARM based machine -right ? Of course: it is not impossible, rather questionable if it's worth so much of work. I would expect graduate transition to native ARM programs wether to be written in C or ASM and Saturn emulation as you said only at Saturn layer (that means no true 50/49G+ emulation ever) The third possible path (maybe the best) would be to use native ARM environment to support sysRPL and userRPL entries (execute sysRPL and userRPL programs) Finally: we get native ARM speed and environment (no Saturn emulator) but capable of executing higher level RPL code (let's call this interpreter: RPL virtual machine) All RPL (user and/or system) would run on both real and emulated machines, only on real ARM machine it would run much faster due to the fact that ARM is much more powerfull than Saturn and more powerfull than emulated Satrun. One day...further more in the future we may see HP calculator get released from it's heritage (Saturn) completely. One more time: the compatibility would be at RPL level which could run about the speed of current Saturn machine language. Runing an emulator is a great solution while in transition but insisting on emulator(s) is like refusing to accept the new technology, new possibilities -the progress itself! However it may be wrong to tie it down to ARM at low level because one day ARM may expire like Saturn did. The virtual machine or RPL execution/intepreter is the way to go! It would be able to use a lot of current work, AND it could be ported to other platforms (programmed in any language or tool for any native platform that may come in the future -currently most likely in C) Over longer period of time HP calculator as we know it today, may become cross platform scientific/teching/math environment, rather than just a calculator. The point in that case would be to establish a standard of language optimised for math good enough for some general purposes, with simple rules and interpeter. RPL is very much like that and form how many people uses it's just the right thing. (projects like RPL/2 support my thoughts here) Having all this in mind... Saturn/ARM emulator -yes as a mental exercise, but no real future or use (my thoughts for next milenium i guess :-) manjo === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > Over longer period of time HP calculator as we know it today, may become > cross platform scientific/teching/math environment, rather than just a > calculator.> The point in that case would be to establish a standard of language > optimised for math good enough for > some general purposes, with simple rules and interpeter. By long period of time I am assuming you mean when hell freezes over. HP isn't exactly committee to calculators like they use to be. I would love an IPhone version of the GX or 50G. The virtual keyboard is way nicer than the sillycrap keyboards availble on most 50G's in circulation anyways. === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > Over longer period of time HP calculator as we know it today, may become > cross platform scientific/teching/math environment, rather than just a > calculator.> The point in that case would be to establish a standard of language > optimised for math good enough for > some general purposes, with simple rules and interpeter. By long period of time I am assuming you mean when hell freezes over. > HP isn't exactly committee to calculators like they use to be. I would love an IPhone version of the GX or 50G. The virtual keyboard > is way nicer than the sillycrap keyboards availble on most 50G's in > circulation anyways. > One problem is that the keys would be too close together to reliably press with fingers. On my Treo (320 x 320 screen) I have to use the stylus. === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > At this time no emulator can emulate true 49G+ or 50G (from point of > software compatibility) With 10 rows of keys and the larger display the 49g+/50g may not be very practical. However, the 48GX/SX with only 9 rows of keys and smaller display should be doable on the iPhone. > with. Initially that was the case for me and my iPhone for the first week. But since then I have adapted. I have no problems with the 41CX emulator for the iPhone. Not clumsy at all. === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > Politicaly: No - there is a bann on on device progammable applications > for the iPhone. R.L.M. software just released a port of their 12C emulation for the iPhone; and the 12C is programmable. So there might be some wiggle room. --Sylvain === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > >> Politicaly: No - there is a bann on on device progammable applications >> for the iPhone. R.L.M. software just released a port of their 12C emulation for the iPhone; > and the 12C is programmable. So there might be some wiggle room. Only Calculator 12 as it is called is not programmable: http://phobos.apple.com/Wejects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=286506398& mt=8 Just checked it up. We have recentlich changed out home PC's to Apple - but the iPhone is a no go - to restrictive for a smart phone. Martin === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? >Politicaly: No - there is a bann on on device progammable applications > for the iPhone. >> >> R.L.M. software just released a port of their 12C emulation for the >> iPhone; >> and the 12C is programmable. So there might be some wiggle room. Only Calculator 12 as it is called is not programmable: This one I haven't tried; I was talking about R.L.M.'s 12C Lite which is indeed programmable (the difference with the full -- non free -- version from what I understand is the the free 'Lite' version doesn't have permanent memory, i.e., you lose the contents of its memory between uses) --Sylvain === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? > I was talking about R.L.M.'s 12C Lite here is its URL (since there is indeed another more limited app out there): http://phobos.apple.com/Wejects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=290571540& mt=8 --Sylvain === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? >> I was talking about R.L.M.'s 12C Lite here is its URL (since there is indeed another more limited app out there): http://phobos.apple.com/Wejects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=290571540&m t=8 still I would not buy an iPhone. === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? Note that while I was looking for this thing, I also found an emulation of the 41CX which looks pretty good (haven't had time to explore the thing thoroughly yet): http://phobos.apple.com/Wejects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=289068865& mt=8 > But still I would not buy an iPhone. :-( you are hurting my feelings... (note that the thing works fine on an iTouch as well should you change your mind :-) --Sylvain === Subject: Re: Emu48 on the iPhone - can it be done/is it being done? I'd rather see it on the Nokia Communicator > Here, where I work, we have started using Emu 48 to replace our HPs as > they wear out (48GXs). One of our guys has just purchased an iPhone > and wanted to know if it is posible to run Emu48 on it. It looks like a perfect match, but I would have no idea where to even > begin. I know nothing about programming on the Mac or the iPhone and > even less about the emmulators programming. :) Has this been tried? Was there success? If so, how could I repeat it? === Subject: Re: HPGCC 3.0? Is it still possible to apply for testing the beta release of HPGCC 3.0 ? Yann === Subject: Re: HPGCC 3.0? Is it still possible to apply for testing the beta release of HPGCC > 3.0 ? please email Ingo Blank and he'll give you proper access. === Subject: Emu48 and hp 50g Programing Hello everyone. I want to write a hp 50g program (system rpl) using Emu48 (v1.45+) and Emac editor (2.11 distribution). Are all my programs going to wrong in the hp 50g if they wrong in the emulator? How can i install Sdiag directory in the emulator. It most be in sd card and i doesnt have it in the emulator. How can i do it? Another problem is that the skins i have are to small. Is there any hp 50g skin more apropiated for this task, like the one in: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip ? === Subject: Re: Emu48 and hp 50g Programing > Hello everyone. I want to write a hp 50g program (system rpl) using > Emu48 (v1.45+) and Emac editor (2.11 distribution). Are all my programs going to wrong in the hp 50g if they wrong in the > emulator? Yes... > How can i install Sdiag directory in the emulator. It most be in sd > card and i doesnt have it in the emulator. How can i do it? on the PC you drag and drop to the emu window (I use Debug 4) then proceed as in a real calc Note that no EMU so far emulates ARM CPU behind the latest 49g+/50g/48gII so the possible C-programs you will do later must be tested on the calculator Any Saturn Assembler/SysRPL works as well as libraries and your own UserRPL programs on both the EM48 or on the real calculator > Another problem is that the skins i have are to small. Is there any hp > 50g skin more apropiated for this task, like the one in: > http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip ? Loo at the KLM scripts on diiferent sizes then zoom the largest picture twice on any picture program (XnView is mine) and edit the KLM script - experiment - and then publish it to us all! :-D === Subject: Re: Emu48 and hp 50g Programing > Loo at the KLM scripts on diiferent sizes > then zoom the largest picture twice on any picture program (XnView is mine) > and edit the KLM script - experiment - and then publish it to us all! :-D I all ready finish my Emu48 skin to emulate hp 50g. It has a 4x zoom screen. You can download it from: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horizontal50g.zip === Subject: Re: Emu48 and hp 50g Programing > Loo at the KLM scripts on diiferent sizes >> then zoom the largest picture twice on any picture program (XnView is >> mine) >> and edit the KLM script - experiment - and then publish it to us all! :-D I all ready finish my Emu48 skin to emulate hp 50g. It has a 4x zoom > screen. You can download it from: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horizontal50g.zip === Subject: Programming Hp 50g Using Emu48 Hello everyone. I want to write a hp 50g program in system rpl using Emu48 (v1.45+) and Emac editor (2.11 distribution). Are all my system rpl programs going to work (run) in the hp 50g if they work (run) in the emulator? How can i install the Sdiag directory in the emulator. this directory most be in the SD CARD of the hp 50g and i doesnt have a SD CARD in the emulator. How can i do it? is there a program to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? Another problem is that the skins i have are to small. Is there any hp 50g skin more apropiated for this task, like the one in: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip ? This horizontal skin is perfect for hp49 programming but i'd like to get a hp50g skin like this that work on emu48 (v1.45+) === Subject: Programming Hp 50g Using Emu48 Hello everyone. I want to write a hp 50g program in system rpl using Emu48 (v1.45+) and Emac editor (2.11 distribution). Are all my system rpl programs going to work (run) in the hp 50g if they work (run) in the emulator? How can i install the Sdiag directory in the emulator? This directory most be in the SD CARD of the hp 50g and i don't have a SD CARD in the emulator. How can i do it? is there a program to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? Another problem is that the skins i have are to small. Is there any hp 50g skin more apropiated for this task, like the one in: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip ? This horizontal skin is perfect for hp49 programming but i'd like to get a hp50g skin like this that work on emu48 (v1.45+) === Subject: Re: New Compressor for HP 48,49&50 It seems that with version 0.3d, save any future bug report, this will probably be stable release. With this final speed improvement, i believe to have squeezed most simple benefits in the code. Any further development is likely to be complex, and even break compatibility with current format. I can still however spend a bit more time on LZD should there is a need for it (bugfixing being an obvious example). You'll find below final benchmarks (summary) results under HP50G (using Emu48, as explained by TW, results on real hardware are likely to be a bit better for all software tested) Benchmark Results : HP50G Summary BZ49 RF LZD 0.3d TNT 1.11 Decoding Speed 25.8 KB/s 17.6 KB/s 64.3 KB/s 15.8 KB/s Compression Speed 1.41 KB/s 0.46 KB/s 1.91 KB/s 1.19 KB/s Compression Rate 66.9% 68.7% 66.5% 64.4% Conclusions : On average, all compressors have rather close compression ratio performance, each of them having their respective weaknesses and strength. TNT is king of the hill in this category; but this comes at a price on speed. LZD has always been about decompression speed, so this is an area where it still leads with a significant advance. What's rather new today is that LZD is also the fastest compressor benchmarked. Lead is much less impressive, but this is no less than 30%, so end-user can actually save some time here and there when compressing data. Hope this can help Yann === Subject: Using Emu48 to Write Hp 50g Programs Hello everyone. I want to use emu48 (v1.45+) to write hp 50g programs (system rpl). I want to write the programs in the emulator and use them in the calculator. Are all my system rpl programs going to work (run) in the hp 50g if they work (run) in the emulator? I also need to install the Sdiag directory in the emulator. This directory most be in the SD CARD of the hp 50g and i dont have a SD CARD in the emulator. How can i do it? Is there a program to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? Another problem is with hp 50g skins in emu48. Is there a hp 50g skin more appropiate for this task, like the horizontal skin in: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip ? === Subject: Re: Using Emu48 to Write Hp 50g Programs > Are all my system rpl programs going to work (run) in the hp 50g if > they work (run) in the emulator? Yes, they should. Because the emulator has only a subset of the functionality of the real calculator (no SD card and no ARM assembly support), anything that works in the emulator should work on a calculator with the same ROM version. Of course, it's possible you could write something that could exploit a bug in the emulator, but Emu48 is pretty well tested so that is unlikely to occur. > Is there a program to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? No. If the program is small enough to fit in the built-in emulator, you might be able to modify it to run from another port, but at present there is no SD card support in Emu48. Hopefully someone who has researched the SD card support of the 49g+/50g (like one of the hpgcc guys, perhaps, or maybe someone from HP) can explain their findings so support for a virtual SD card could be added to Emu48. > Another problem is with hp 50g skins in emu48. Is there a hp 50g skin > more appropiate for this task, like the horizontal skin in: > http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip ? You can use 49G skins for 49g+/50g emulation with minimal changes. Just increase the size of the screen in the bitmap, edit the KML in a few places (setting the Model to Q, the Class to 50 and the Lcd Offset to the new position, and adjust the offset of the keys by the same amount if you moved them to accommodate the bigger screen), and, if desired, relabel the small number of key labels that changed. I personally use my own Real 50g skin, which only has a 2x zoom screen, with Emu48 for the 50g, but if you prefer something with a 4x zoom screen like the above but with a 50g skin like mine, you would have to edit my bitmap to rearrange things and fix all the coordinates in the KML. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: Using Emu48 to Write Hp 50g Programs > Are all my system rpl programs going to work (run) in the hp 50g if > they work (run) in the emulator? Yes, they should. Because the emulator has only a subset of the > functionality of the real calculator (no SD card and no ARM assembly > support), anything that works in the emulator should work on a calculator > with the same ROM version. Of course, it's possible you could write > something that could exploit a bug in the emulator, but Emu48 is pretty well > tested so that is unlikely to occur. > Is there a program to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? No. If the program is small enough to fit in the built-in emulator, you > might be able to modify it to run from another port, but at present there is > no SD card support in Emu48. Hopefully someone who has researched the SD card support of the 49g+/50g > (like one of the hpgcc guys, perhaps, or maybe someone from HP) can explain > their findings so support for a virtual SD card could be added to Emu48. > Another problem is with hp 50g skins in emu48. Is there a hp 50g skin > more appropiate for this task, like the horizontal skin in: >http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip? You can use 49G skins for 49g+/50g emulation with minimal changes. Just > increase the size of the screen in the bitmap, edit the KML in a few places > (setting the Model to Q, the Class to 50 and the Lcd Offset to the new > position, and adjust the offset of the keys by the same amount if you moved > them to accommodate the bigger screen), and, if desired, relabel the small > number of key labels that changed. I personally use my own Real 50g skin, which only has a 2x zoom screen, with > Emu48 for the 50g, but if you prefer something with a 4x zoom screen like > the above but with a 50g skin like mine, you would have to edit my bitmap to > rearrange things and fix all the coordinates in the KML. > Eric Rechlin emulate hp 50g (Horizontal50g). I uploaded it to hpcalc.org. Now i will start to work on hp 50g version of my graphic editor CAD49: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/graphics/editors/cad49.zip In this software you can take small objects from a menu (for example: chairs, tables, beds... ) and combine them to create a big drawing (for example: a house) What i really want is to use this graphic engine to create diferent kind of simulations. The user will can asigne some properties to the difentes elements to interact each other. It can be usefull for example in a electronic circuit simulator, in structural desigh or to create games or animations. But maybe its going to take me some time === Subject: Re: Using Emu48 to Write Hp 50g Programs no lib works from the SD use Flash instead (unless noted otherwise) > Hello everyone. I want to use emu48 (v1.45+) to write hp 50g programs > (system rpl). I want to write the programs in the emulator and use > them in the calculator. Are all my system rpl programs going to work (run) in the hp 50g if > they work (run) in the emulator? I also need to install the Sdiag directory in the emulator. This > directory most be in the SD CARD of the hp 50g and i dont have a SD > CARD in the emulator. How can i do it? Is there a program to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? Another problem is with hp 50g skins in emu48. Is there a hp 50g skin > more appropiate for this task, like the horizontal skin in: > http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip ? === Subject: Re: Using Emu48 to Write Hp 50g Programs > no lib works from the SD > use Flash instead (unless noted otherwise) > Hello everyone. I want to use emu48 (v1.45+) to write hp 50g programs > (system rpl). I want to write the programs in the emulator and use > them in the calculator. > Are all my system rpl programs going to work (run) in the hp 50g if > they work (run) in the emulator? > I also need to install the Sdiag directory in the emulator. This > directory most be in the SD CARD of the hp 50g and i dont have a SD > CARD in the emulator. How can i do it? > Is there a program to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? > Another problem is with hp 50g skins in emu48. Is there a hp 50g skin > more appropiate for this task, like the horizontal skin in: >http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip? > - Mostrar texto de la cita - Its not a librery, its a DIRECTORY === Subject: Using Emu48 to Create Hp 50g Programs (System RPL) Hello everyone. I want to use emu48 (v1.45+) create (write, compile and test) hp 50g programs (system rpl). I want to create the programs in the emulator and use them in the calculator. Are all my system rpl programs going to run in the hp 50g if they run in the emulator? I also need to install the Sdiag directory (Emac 2.11) in the emulator. This directory most be in the SD CARD of the hp 50g. But i dont have a SD CARD in the emulator. How can i do it? Is there a way to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? Another problem is with hp 50g skins in emu48. Is there a hp 50g skin more appropiate for this task, like the horizontal skin in: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip ? === Subject: Using Emu48 to Create Hp 50g Programs (System RPL) Hello everyone. I want to use emu48 (v1.45+) create (write, compile and test) hp 50g programs (system rpl). I want to create the programs in the emulator and use them in the calculator. Are all my system rpl programs going to run in the hp 50g if they run in the emulator? I also need to install the Sdiag directory (Emac 2.11) in the emulator. This directory most be in the SD CARD of the hp 50g. But i dont have a SD CARD in the emulator. How can i do it? Is there a way to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? Another problem is with hp 50g skins in emu48. Is there a hp 50g skin more appropiate for this task, like the horizontal skin in: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip ? === Subject: Using Emu48 to Create Hp 50g Programs Using Emu48 to Create Hp 50g Programs Hello everyone. I want to use emu48 (v1.45+) to create (write, compile and test) hp 50g programs (system rpl). I want to create the programs in the emulator and use them in the calculator. Are all my system rpl programs going to run in the hp 50g if they run in the emulator? I also need to install the Sdiag directory (Emac 2.11) in the emulator. This directory most be in the SD CARD of the hp 50g. But i dont have a SD CARD in the emulator. How can i do it? Is there a program to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? Another problem is with hp 50g skins in emu48. Is there a hp 50g skin more appropiate for this task, like the horizontal skin in: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip ? === Subject: Using Emu48 to Create Hp 50g Programs (System RPL) Hello everyone. I want to use emu48 (v1.45+) to create (write, compile and test) hp 50g programs (system rpl). I want to create the programs in the emulator and use them in the calculator. Are all my system rpl programs going to run in the hp 50g if they run in the emulator? I also need to install the Sdiag directory (Emac 2.11) in the emulator. This directory most be in the SD CARD of the hp 50g. But i dont have a SD CARD in the emulator. How can i do it? Is there a program to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? Another problem is with hp 50g skins in emu48. Is there a hp 50g skin more appropiate for this task, like the horizontal skin in: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip ? === Subject: Re: Using Emu48 to Create Hp 50g Programs (System RPL) > Hello everyone. I want to use emu48 (v1.45+) to create (write, compile > and test) hp 50g programs (system rpl). I want to create the programs > in the emulator and use them in the calculator. Are all my system rpl programs going to run in the hp 50g if they run > in the emulator? I also need to install the Sdiag directory (Emac 2.11) in the > emulator. This directory most be in the SD CARD of the hp 50g. But i > dont have a SD CARD in the emulator. How can i do it? Is there a program to create a SD CARD for Emu48 (v1.45+)? Another problem is with hp 50g skins in emu48. Is there a hp 50g skin > more appropiate for this task, like the horizontal skin in:http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/horzhp49.zip? > I want to apologize to all the comp.sys.hp48 users for the eight times repetion of my post. It was not my intention tu disturb. I just tried to edit it to make it more understandable couse english is not my native lenguaje. I want ot ensure this will not happen again. === Subject: Help with hpgcc tutorial I have downloaded and mostly installed cygwin, the latest version. The obstacle I have reached is at step two of his installation instructions where it says to set up an icon for C:cygwinusrX11R6binstartxwin.bat - I can find no startxwin.bat in that file. I have reinstalled twice just to be sure nothing got lost. Next he says to set up an icon for Xterm: C:cygwinbinrun.exe -p /usr/X11R6/bin xterm -display 127.0.0.1:0.0 -ls I have some basic familiarity with linux but this has me lost. BTW if I try to run run.exe it says it can't find cygwin1.dll. I have enough hp48 familiarity I can slug through the rest of the tutorial with, along with a friend who is a professional C programmer. Meanwhile I would appreciate any guidance on this === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial I got access to a Vista machine today. Just follow the tutorial with the following Cygwin install exceptions: Step 1: 1. When prompted for package directory, change the default c: windowssystem32 to c:whatever, not really necessary, but lets keep things clean. 2. When prompted for compatibility, select this program installed correctly Step 2: Ignore the setup startx and xterm icon creation. For Vista (or any Windows) just use the Start X-Server icon on the desktop to startx and for an xterm use Start Menu/All Programs/Cygwin-X/xterm. I just did all of this and it works just fine. I also tested HPAPINE under Vista, no problems. I'll have the tutorial updated soon (I have many other updates as well). === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial Did you select all packages (not the default). Click on the symbol between All and Default to change Default to Install. then Before clicking Next, verify that your dialog matches the snapshot above. I.e. All packages to be installed. If you are using the June 2008 version of this document then you will notice the Cygwin/X install has step-by-step, screenshot-by-screenshot instructions. Cygwin/X as of June 2008 worked this way. Are you running XP or Vista? I've heard that Cygwin has issues with Vista. Lastly, you can use the standard Windows method via hpgcc.org. The example code will compile the same. However, you will not have the ability to run HPAPINE (simulator) or GDB (debugger). HPAPINE was my motivation to use Cygwin/X. I cannot overstate the hours it has saved me. Good luck. P.S. if you get really desperate you can install VirtualBox (free) and CentOS (free) and then do all of this under Linux. === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > Did you select all packages (not the default). > Click on the symbol between All and Default to change Default to Install. > i'm quite unhappy with the All ==> Install option for cygwin, because it installs 950MB of packages which i'll never use. could you please give a list of needed cygwin packages in order to run cygwin, X and hpgccapine successfully. tiwag === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > Did you select all packages (not the default). > Click on the symbol between All and Default to change Default to > Install. i'm quite unhappy with the All ==> Install option for cygwin, > because it installs 950MB of packages which i'll never use. could you please give a list of needed cygwin packages in order to run > cygwin, X and hpgccapine successfully. tiwag I'll document the exact steps for the next update (sometime next month). For now you just need gcc, X11, and GTK. With some effort GTK can be dropped. === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > Did you select all packages (not the default). > Click on the symbol between All and Default to change Default to Install. then Before clicking Next, verify that your dialog matches the snapshot > above. I.e. All packages to be installed. If you are using the June 2008 version of this document then you will > notice the Cygwin/X install has step-by-step, screenshot-by-screenshot > instructions. Cygwin/X as of June 2008 worked this way. > Are you running XP or Vista? I've heard that Cygwin has issues with > Vista. Tragically, Vista. > Lastly, you can use the standard Windows method via hpgcc.org. The > example code will compile the same. However, you will not have the > ability to run HPAPINE (simulator) or GDB (debugger). HPAPINE was my > motivation to use Cygwin/X. I cannot overstate the hours it has saved > me. > I would prefer to run it with HAPINE if that works best. > Good luck. Double-clicking on C:/cugwin/usr/X11R6/bin/XWin.exe tells me again it can't find cygwin1.dll although this does in fact live in C:/cygwin/ bin. Any suggestions? I'd really like to get this going this way vs. the P.S. if you get really desperate you can install VirtualBox (free) and > CentOS (free) and then do all of this under Linux . Not yet... === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > Did you select all packages (not the default). > Click on the symbol between All and Default to change Default to > Install. > then > Before clicking Next, verify that your dialog matches the snapshot > above. I.e. All packages to be installed. > If you are using the June 2008 version of this document then you will > notice the Cygwin/X install has step-by-step, screenshot-by-screenshot > instructions. Cygwin/X as of June 2008 worked this way. > Are you running XP or Vista? I've heard that Cygwin has issues with > Vista. Tragically, Vista. > Lastly, you can use the standard Windows method via hpgcc.org. The > example code will compile the same. However, you will not have the > ability to run HPAPINE (simulator) or GDB (debugger). HPAPINE was my > motivation to use Cygwin/X. I cannot overstate the hours it has saved > me. I would prefer to run it with HAPINE if that works best. > Good luck. Double-clicking on C:/cugwin/usr/X11R6/bin/XWin.exe tells me again it > can't find cygwin1.dll although this does in fact live in C:/cygwin/ > bin. > Any suggestions? I'd really like to get this going this way vs. the That is normal behavior. C:/cygwin/bin must be in the PATH environment variable when XWin.exe is run. The proper way to do this is to use C:/cygwin/usr/X11R6/bin/ startxwin.bat If you are missing that file, you need to install the package X- startup-scripts. === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > Did you select all packages (not the default). > Click on the symbol between All and Default to change Default to > Install. > then > Before clicking Next, verify that your dialog matches the snapshot > above. I.e. All packages to be installed. > If you are using the June 2008 version of this document then you will > notice the Cygwin/X install has step-by-step, screenshot-by-screenshot > instructions. Cygwin/X as of June 2008 worked this way. > Are you running XP or Vista? I've heard that Cygwin has issues with > Vista. > Tragically, Vista. > Lastly, you can use the standard Windows method via hpgcc.org. The > example code will compile the same. However, you will not have the > ability to run HPAPINE (simulator) or GDB (debugger). HPAPINE was my > motivation to use Cygwin/X. I cannot overstate the hours it has saved > me. > I would prefer to run it with HAPINE if that works best. > Good luck. > Double-clicking on C:/cugwin/usr/X11R6/bin/XWin.exe tells me again it > can't find cygwin1.dll although this does in fact live in C:/cygwin/ > bin. > Any suggestions? I'd really like to get this going this way vs. the > That is normal behavior. C:/cygwin/bin must be in the PATH environment > variable when XWin.exe is run. > The proper way to do this is to use C:/cygwin/usr/X11R6/bin/ > startxwin.bat If you are missing that file, you need to install the package X- > startup-scripts. === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > Double-clicking on C:/cygwin/usr/X11R6/bin/XWin.exe tells me again > it can't find cygwin1.dll although this does in fact live in C:/cygwin/bin I don't use HPGCC, but I do use Cygwin. What if you set the Start in property of your Windows shortcut to the directory (...cygwinbin) which contains all the Cygwin DLLs? Any other start in gives me the same error as you get, but this particular start in gives no such initial error for me. Also, what's your PATH variable say? When I start a Cygwin shell (bash) then display my PATH: In Cygwin: PATH='/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/cygdrive/c/WINDOWS/system 32:...' In Windows (after running cmd.exe from bash): PATH=D:cygwinusrlocalbin;D:cygwinbin;D:cygwinusrX11R6bin ;c:WINDOWSsystem32;... There are some Cygwin programs that I use which are not happy until that entire PATH is set up (bash sets it up on its own, it would appear, when I use the automatically installed cygwin.bat command file, or the command bash --login from within the cygwinbin directory) === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial [re Cygwin] http://sysdigg.blogspot.com/2007/12/how-to-install-cygwin-on-windows-vista.h tml If that hurdle is passed, then a few other issues with running things: An xterm problem: http://aabrahamowicz.wordpress.com/2008/03/05/vista-cygwin-mingw-xterm-fails -to-startup/ This seems to be an installer problem (by top Cygwin maintainer): http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1020271&SiteID=1&mode= 1 But I didn't see a can't find cygwin1.dll problem. Meanwhile, I'm on XP, TG! ( if Vista, then OMG :) === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial > Are you running XP or Vista? I've heard that Cygwin has issues with > Vista. Tragically, Vista. ... > Double-clicking on C:/cugwin/usr/X11R6/bin/XWin.exe tells me again it > can't find cygwin1.dll although this does in fact live in C:/cygwin/ > bin. Copy cygwin1.dll to windowssystem32 and see if that helps. I do not generally recommend this, but its just a test. Sadly I do not have access to a Vista system to try. === Subject: a Stopwatch for the 50... I need to time some processes, usually 1-2 minutes, occasionally longer. I only need 1 second or so accuracy. How do I get the hp50 to be a stopwatch for me? On the 48 it displayed seconds in the top of the screen so I could just use that and remember the time it started. Are there any programs that function as a stopwatch? === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > Are there any programs that function as a stopwatch? I hesitate to post this as it's not very good, but a few months ago while waxing nostalgic about my 41CX (with built-in time module), I good enough for what I wanted (worse thing that can happen to a work in progress), so I never got around to formatting the output, fixing the midnight rollover issue, or doing better error checks. However, it does do multiple splits and is quite functional. Use it at your own risk. I haven't looked at the code in a few months. There's a #2DFF4h SYSEVAL (DispMenu.1) used several times, so use it only on a 49/50. Enjoy, -wes %%HP: T(0)A(D)F(.); @ Stop Watch @ Wes Loewer << RCLF RCLMENU 0. 0. 0. 0 -> flags origmenu splitdisp starttime cumtime split << 6. FIX CLLCD 0. 1. DISP { RESET {} {} START VIEW SPLIT } TMENU @ just for labeling #2DFF4h SYSEVAL @ DispMenu.1 @ flag 1 set means stopwatch has run since reset 1. CF @ flag 2 set means stopwatch is currently running 2. CF DO WHILE KEY NOT REPEAT IF 2. FS? THEN @ no key but clock is running TIME starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ 1. DISP END END TIME @ get time right away -> key time << CASE @ put start/stop first key 14. == THEN @ start/stop IF 1. FC? THEN @ if hitting start for 1st time since reset time 'starttime' STO 0. 'cumtime' STO 1. SF 2. SF { RESET {} {} STOP VIEW SPLIT } TMENU @ just for labeling #2DFF4h SYSEVAL @ DispMenu.1 ELSE @ stopwatch has run since reset IF 2. FC? THEN @ but is not currently running 2. SF @ and needs to be started time 'starttime' STO { RESET {} {} STOP VIEW SPLIT } TMENU @ just for labeling #2DFF4h SYSEVAL @ DispMenu.1 ELSE @ stopwatch is currently running 2. CF @ and needs to be stopped time starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ @ add to previous cumulated time DUP 'cumtime' STO @ and store back in cumtime 1. DISP { RESET {} {} START VIEW SPLIT } TMENU @ just for labeling #2DFF4h SYSEVAL @ DispMenu.1 END END END key 16. == THEN @ split IF 2. FS? THEN @ if the clock is running time starttime HMS- @ how much time since starting cumtime HMS+ @ add to previous cumulated time ELSE @ else clock is not running cumtime @ just use cumtime for split END 1 'split' STO+ SPLIT# split + ->TAG DUP 3. DISP END key 11. == THEN @ reset IF 2. FC? THEN @ only reset if stopwatch is stopped 1. CF DEPTH split MIN DROPN 0 'split' STO 0. DUP 'cumtime' STO CLLCD 1. DISP END END key 15. == THEN @ view splits IF 2. FC? THEN @ if the clock is not running IF split 0. > THEN -41. KEYEVAL @ HIST key CLLCD IF DEPTH THEN DUP 3. DISP END cumtime 1. DISP #2DFF4h SYSEVAL @ DispMenu.1 END END END key 25. == THEN IF split 0. > THEN splitdisp 2. - split MOD 1. + DUP 'splitdisp' STO PICK 3. DISP END END key 35. == THEN IF split 0. > THEN splitdisp split MOD 1. + DUP 'splitdisp' STO PICK 3. DISP END END END key >> UNTIL 105. == 2. FC? AND END CLLCD flags STOF origmenu TMENU >> === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... I have several stopwatches for the hp50 now--I feel rich! Wes, a base and added some things to it. Take a look, maybe you can use some of it, maybe you can suggest better ideas. I couldn't figure out at first how to stop the program, then read the code and found it was the enter key. So I put it done the menu. We pressed reset sometimes when the stopwatch was running and nothing happened, so we made it modal, that is, it is invisible when it cannot be used. We added a help screen, so I can remember how to use it, though some may object at the extra size of the program, it helps me. It was made invisible when it made sense, too. It works before/after midnight correctly now. We added a local subprogram to do the display processing since it was done 6 times in the program. I converted it to HH:MM:SS.ss format for the display as that is my personal preference. We did a couple other things that I am not remembering right now. I will eventually put it in a Library on a port, and then make the subprogram and the help screen separte from the program so they run a little faster and not so much is being loaded into memory to run. If anyone else sees some improvements, please post them! Steve and Byrel Mitchell Oh, the grob of the help screen is supposed to be on one line, but I had to break it up to post it in this message. I think you need to put it all back on one line before you upload to a calculator. ----------- << RCLF RCLMENU 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 << DUP IF 0 < THEN 24 HMS+ END -> RAWT << RAWT IP XQ ->STR : + RAWT FP 100 * IP XQ ->STR + : + RAWT 100 * FP 100 * IP XQ ->STR + . + RAWT 10000 * FP 100 * IP XQ ->STR + >> >> -> flags origmenu splitdisp starttime cumtime split PROCESSTIME << CLLCD 0:0:0.0 1.000000 DISP { RESET START SPLIT VIEW HELP DONE } TMENU #188404d SYSEVAL 1.000000 CF 2.000000 CF DO WHILE KEY NOT REPEAT IF 2.000000 FS? THEN TIME starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ PROCESSTIME EVAL 1.000000 DISP END END TIME -> key time << CASE key 12.000000 == THEN IF 1.000000 FC? THEN time 'starttime' STO 0.000000 'cumtime' STO 1.000000 SF 2.000000 SF { { } STOP SPLIT VIEW { } { } } TMENU #188404d SYSEVAL ELSE IF 2.000000 FC? THEN 2.000000 SF time 'starttime' STO { { } STOP SPLIT VIEW { } { } } TMENU #188404d SYSEVAL ELSE 2.000000 CF time starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ DUP 'cumtime' STO PROCESSTIME EVAL 1.000000 DISP { RESET START SPLIT VIEW HELP DONE } TMENU #188404d SYSEVAL END END END key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starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ PROCESSTIME EVAL 1 DISP END key 13.000000 == THEN IF 2.000000 FS? THEN time starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ ELSE cumtime END 1 'split' STO+ PROCESSTIME EVAL SPLIT# split XQ + + SWAP + DUP 3.000000 DISP END key 11.000000 == THEN IF 2.000000 FC? THEN 1.000000 CF DEPTH split MIN DROPN 0 'split' STO 0.000000 DUP 'cumtime' STO PROCESSTIME EVAL CLLCD 1.000000 DISP END END key 14.000000 == THEN IF 2.000000 FC? THEN IF split 0.000000 > THEN -41.000000 KEYEVAL CLLCD IF DEPTH THEN DUP 3.000000 DISP END cumtime PROCESSTIME EVAL 1.000000 DISP #188404d SYSEVAL END END END key 25.000000 == THEN IF split 0.000000 > THEN splitdisp 2.000000 - split MOD 1.000000 + DUP 'splitdisp' STO PICK 3.000000 DISP END END key 35.000000 == THEN IF split 0.000000 > THEN splitdisp split MOD 1.000000 + DUP 'splitdisp' STO PICK 3.000000 DISP END END END key >> UNTIL DUP 105.000000 == SWAP 16.000000 == OR 2.000000 FC? AND END TIME: TIME starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ PROCESSTIME EVAL + CLLCD flags STOF origmenu TMENU >> === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > a base and added > some things to it. Take a look, maybe you can use some of it, maybe you > can suggest better ideas. Say, that's pretty good. I did think of a few things (and one really good thing), but perhaps I should send my code to you directly and we can exchange some ideas and then post our final program. Look for an email from me. -wes === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... HP50g! I am now rich as I have no less than 3 stopwatches! Wes, My son, Byrel Mitchell and I took your program as a guide and added some things to it. Take a look and see if they are things you can use, or if you can suggest better ideas. I couldn't find how to exit the program, till I looked again a the code. So I added a menu item to exit. I added a help screen because I don't always remember how to use each program. Some may complain about the new size of the program with it in, but it helps me. I would press reset, but it didn't do anything if the clock was running, so I grayed out the menu item when it was not available. Added someone else's idea (Virgil?) of making it go past midnight I changed the formatting to HH:MM:SS.00. Timing is just as accurate, but the number of times you can update it per second is slower. We made a subprogram to do the formatting since it is done 6 times in the program, and made it a local subprogram. Could be better to make this a library and store the formatting subprogram and a couble of other things, help screen, etc. in a port so less is in memory. The help screen grob is too big for one line so remember to put it back together without spaces on 1 line before saving to your calculator. Steve and Byrel Mitchell ***clip************ << RCLF RCLMENU 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 << DUP IF 0 < THEN 24 HMS+ END -> RAWT << RAWT IP XQ ->STR : + RAWT FP 100 * IP XQ ->STR + : + RAWT 100 * FP 100 * IP XQ ->STR + . + RAWT 10000 * FP 100 * IP XQ ->STR + >> >> -> flags origmenu splitdisp starttime cumtime split PROCESSTIME << CLLCD 0:0:0.0 1.000000 DISP { RESET START SPLIT VIEW HELP DONE } TMENU #188404d SYSEVAL 1.000000 CF 2.000000 CF DO WHILE KEY NOT REPEAT IF 2.000000 FS? THEN TIME starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ PROCESSTIME EVAL 1.000000 DISP END END TIME -> key time << CASE key 12.000000 == THEN IF 1.000000 FC? THEN time 'starttime' STO 0.000000 'cumtime' STO 1.000000 SF 2.000000 SF { { } STOP SPLIT VIEW { } { } } TMENU #188404d SYSEVAL ELSE IF 2.000000 FC? THEN 2.000000 SF time 'starttime' STO { { } STOP SPLIT VIEW { } { } } TMENU #188404d SYSEVAL ELSE 2.000000 CF time starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ DUP 'cumtime' STO PROCESSTIME EVAL 1.000000 DISP { RESET START SPLIT VIEW HELP DONE } TMENU #188404d SYSEVAL END END END key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starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ PROCESSTIME EVAL 1 DISP END key 13.000000 == THEN IF 2.000000 FS? THEN time starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ ELSE cumtime END 1 'split' STO+ PROCESSTIME EVAL SPLIT# split XQ + + SWAP + DUP 3.000000 DISP END key 11.000000 == THEN IF 2.000000 FC? THEN 1.000000 CF DEPTH split MIN DROPN 0 'split' STO 0.000000 DUP 'cumtime' STO PROCESSTIME EVAL CLLCD 1.000000 DISP END END key 14.000000 == THEN IF 2.000000 FC? THEN IF split 0.000000 > THEN -41.000000 KEYEVAL CLLCD IF DEPTH THEN DUP 3.000000 DISP END cumtime PROCESSTIME EVAL 1.000000 DISP #188404d SYSEVAL END END END key 25.000000 == THEN IF split 0.000000 > THEN splitdisp 2.000000 - split MOD 1.000000 + DUP 'splitdisp' STO PICK 3.000000 DISP END END key 35.000000 == THEN IF split 0.000000 > THEN splitdisp split MOD 1.000000 + DUP 'splitdisp' STO PICK 3.000000 DISP END END END key >> UNTIL DUP 105.000000 == SWAP 16.000000 == OR 2.000000 FC? AND END TIME: TIME starttime HMS- cumtime HMS+ PROCESSTIME EVAL + CLLCD flags STOF origmenu TMENU >> === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > I need to time some processes, usually 1-2 minutes, occasionally longer. > I only need 1 second or so accuracy. > How do I get the hp50 to be a stopwatch for me? On the 48 it displayed seconds in the top of the screen so I could just > use that and remember the time it started. Are there any programs that function as a stopwatch? > Another approach, if you want to display the seconds: << CLLCD DO DATE TIME TSTR 2. DISP UNTIL KEY END DROP >> This will display the date and current time, with seconds, in line 2 of the display until a key is pressed. === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > I need to time some processes, usually 1-2 minutes, occasionally longer. > I only need 1 second or so accuracy. > How do I get the hp50 to be a stopwatch for me? > On the 48 it displayed seconds in the top of the screen so I could just > use that and remember the time it started. > Are there any programs that function as a stopwatch? > Another approach, if you want to display the seconds: << CLLCD DO DATE TIME TSTR 2. DISP UNTIL KEY END DROP This will display the date and current time, with seconds, in line 2 > of the display until a key is pressed. You would need to save the first and last timestrings, or equivalent data, in order to have sufficient data after KEY to determine the time interval between starting and ending. === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > I need to time some processes, usually 1-2 minutes, occasionally longer. > I only need 1 second or so accuracy. > How do I get the hp50 to be a stopwatch for me? Right-shift[hold]+TIME (or 94 MENU) Press TIME at start. Press TIME again at end. Press NXT HMS- (and change sign) for time difference (hh.mmss[.ss]) You can convert hh.mmss to pure elapsed seconds, if desired, via HMS-> 3600 * All of above in a menu (also preserves original times): { { } TIME { } { diff: TEXT } { HMS << DUP2 HMS- NEG >> } { SEC << DUP2 HMS- NEG HMS-> 3600 * >> } } TMENU @ or MENU (to save as custom menu) > Are there any programs that function as a stopwatch? You can insert the above into a program, or: === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... I need to time some processes, usually 1-2 minutes, occasionally longer. > I only need 1 second or so accuracy. > How do I get the hp50 to be a stopwatch for me? Right-shift[hold]+TIME (or 94 MENU) Press TIME at start. Press TIME again at end. Press NXT HMS- (and change sign) for time difference (hh.mmss[.ss]) You can convert hh.mmss to pure elapsed seconds, > if desired, via HMS-> 3600 * All of above in a menu (also preserves original times): { { } TIME { } { diff: TEXT } > { HMS << DUP2 HMS- NEG >> } > { SEC << DUP2 HMS- NEG HMS-> 3600 * >> } } > TMENU @ or MENU (to save as custom menu) Are there any programs that function as a stopwatch? You can insert the above into a program, or: > However, if you want to time things over a time interval including midnight on the HP's clock, there will be problems. === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > If you want to time things over a time interval including > midnight on the HP's clock, there will be problems. which can be inserted after each HMS- NEG DUP 0 < { 24 HMS+ } IFT Time intervals are still limited to 24 hours, however (just like many stopwatches :) === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... If you want to time things over a time interval including > midnight on the HP's clock, there will be problems. which can be inserted after each HMS- NEG DUP 0 < { 24 HMS+ } IFT Time intervals are still limited to 24 hours, however > (just like many stopwatches :) How about multiday timing with T0 containing the starting time and D0 the starting date and doing: TIME T0 HMS- DATE D0 DAYS 24. * + Of course it will still come out in hours, minutes and seconds, but is certainly not limited to 24 hour periods. I make it possible, in theory at least, to time over 100 years this way. === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > How about multiday timing with T0 containing the starting time > and D0 the starting date and doing: TIME T0 HMS- DATE D0 DAYS 24. * + Of course it will still come out in hours, minutes and seconds, > but is certainly not limited to 24 hour periods. I make it possible, in theory at least, to time over 100 years this way. Not really, because calculator interrupts and resets internal TICKS right at end of its hard-coded 100 year calendar window! (as I learned from Joe Horn): (for more entertainment, click on entire thread links at top of each) And of course those 100-year batteries aren't that good :) Or 100 years without AC power loss, or 100 WEEKS without keyboard disintegration :) A list with { date time } could of course be stacked on each TIME press (calculating 24 * DDAYS plus time difference), but a bit messier; you would also probably no longer want answer in seconds -- actually, you would probably no longer want just hh.mmss, either, but probably need to provide for complete years(360/365/366?),days,hours,minutes,seconds (in what format?) And what about a stopwatch for Methuselah? (or ?) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/623542/posts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103241/ Finally, isn't it possible for midnight to strike between the DATE and TIME commands? Mini challenge: first figure out what to do about that, before comparing answers with these fraternity house past exams files :) === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... How about multiday timing with T0 containing the starting time > and D0 the starting date and doing: > TIME T0 HMS- DATE D0 DAYS 24. * + > Of course it will still come out in hours, minutes and seconds, > but is certainly not limited to 24 hour periods. > I make it possible, in theory at least, to time over 100 years this way. Not really, because calculator interrupts and resets internal TICKS > right at end of its hard-coded 100 year calendar window! > (as I learned from Joe Horn): > (for more entertainment, click on entire thread links at top of each) And of course those 100-year batteries aren't that good :) Or 100 years without AC power loss, > or 100 WEEKS without keyboard disintegration :) A list with { date time } could of course be stacked on each TIME press > (calculating 24 * DDAYS plus time difference), but a bit messier; > you would also probably no longer want answer in seconds -- > actually, you would probably no longer want just hh.mmss, either, > but probably need to provide for complete > years(360/365/366?),days,hours,minutes,seconds (in what format?) And what about a stopwatch for Methuselah? (or ?) > http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/623542/posts > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103241/ Finally, isn't it possible for midnight to strike > between the DATE and TIME commands? Mini challenge: first figure out what to do about that, > before comparing answers with these fraternity house past exams files :) > 7160/ > e09d/ As I am, myself, extremely unlikely to last for anything like 100 more years, it was only speculative. === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > As I am, myself, extremely unlikely > to last for anything like 100 more years... But we can still think ahead for millennia to come! Wishing you long and fulfilling life (at least to outlast 100 calculators :) === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... As I am, myself, extremely unlikely > to last for anything like 100 more years... But we can still think ahead for millennia to come! Wishing you long and fulfilling life > (at least to outlast 100 calculators :) well. And, as you may have been through a few more than that, may you outlast at least 200 of them. === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... With additional features: { { } { TIME << TIME Time ->TAG >> } { } { diff: << MEM DROP >> } { HMS << DUP2 HMS- NEG hms- ->TAG SWAP >> } { SEC << DUP2 HMS- NEG HMS-> 3600 * sec- ->TAG SWAP >> } } TMENU @ or MENU (to save as custom menu) Press the diff: menu key during boring waiting periods, to make sure that no garbage collection will occur when marking the TIME, because garbage collection causes a brief freeze, which could throw off the timing. Each item is now labeled on the stack. The difference functions now insert the time difference into the stack, between the two (start, end) actual times, allowing you to accumulate many actual times on the stack, inserting split times between each pair. The above works on all HP48/49/50 In the original HP48 series, the time is thrown off slightly by the fact that the processor is a bit pre-occupied while any key (including a menu key) is making contact, causing differences in the dwell time of keypresses to affect the accuracy of the absolute time obtained. === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > On the 48 it displayed seconds in the top of the screen so I could just > use that and remember the time it started. Are there any programs that function as a stopwatch? Press MODE, select DISP, then downarrow four times and check CLOCK to put the clock on the header line just like the 48. kiy === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > Press MODE, select DISP, then downarrow four times and check > CLOCK to put the clock on the header line just like the 48. Yes, that's true, but it's not very useful as a stopwatch. Because in the 49 series the clock in the header does not show seconds, you would then have to count the flashes of the colon. The 48 series showed the seconds, making it a little more useful as a stopwatch. === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > I need to time some processes, usually 1-2 minutes, occasionally longer. > I only need 1 second or so accuracy. > How do I get the hp50 to be a stopwatch for me? On the 48 it displayed seconds in the top of the screen so I could just > use that and remember the time it started. Are there any programs that function as a stopwatch? > Try the following program, saved under whatever name you find convenient. Once started, it runs, displaying the time in seconds and tenths, until any key is pressed until any key (except the ON key) is pressed then it leaves the time on the stack: << TICKS -> T << CLLCD STD DO TICKS T - B->R 8192 / 1 RND 1 DISP UNTIL KEY END DROP TICKS T - B->R 8192 / 1 RND 1 DISP >> Note that 8192 is the number of ticks by the HP50 internal clock in one second, at least ideally. === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > Try the following program, saved under whatever name you find > convenient. Once started, it runs, displaying the time in seconds and > tenths, until any key is pressed until any key (except the ON key) is > pressed then it leaves the time on the stack: << TICKS -> T > << CLLCD STD > DO TICKS T - B->R 8192 / 1 RND 1 DISP > UNTIL KEY > END DROP TICKS T - B->R 8192 / 1 RND 1 DISP > Note that 8192 is the number of ticks by the HP50 internal clock in one > second, at least ideally. Minor correction: You want to delete the last 1. DISP in order for the final time value to be left on level 1 of the stack. Otherwise, it is displayed on the screen for a split second before the program ends, leaving nothing on the stack. << TICKS -> T << CLLCD STD DO TICKS T - B->R 8192. / 1. RND 1. DISP UNTIL KEY END DROP TICKS T - B->R 8192. / 1. RND >> Great program! === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... > Try the following program, saved under whatever name you find > convenient. Once started, it runs, displaying the time in seconds and > tenths, until any key is pressed until any key (except the ON key) is > pressed then it leaves the time on the stack: > << TICKS -> T > << CLLCD STD > DO TICKS T - B->R 8192 / 1 RND 1 DISP > UNTIL KEY > END DROP TICKS T - B->R 8192 / 1 RND 1 DISP > Note that 8192 is the number of ticks by the HP50 internal clock in one > second, at least ideally. > Minor correction: You want to delete the last > 1. DISP > in order for the final time value to be left on level 1 of the stack. > Otherwise, it is displayed on the screen for a split second before the > program ends, leaving nothing on the stack. << TICKS -> T > << CLLCD STD > DO TICKS T - B->R 8192. / 1. RND 1. DISP > UNTIL KEY > END DROP TICKS T - B->R 8192. / 1. RND > Great program! Right!, My error from cutting and pasting instead of typing. === Subject: Re: a Stopwatch for the 50... There used to be a great stopwatch program for the 48 series written in ML by Hewlett-Packard. http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/utils/time/stpwatch.zip Unfortunately it was never ported to the 49 series but hopefully somebody at HP could do this ? Andreas === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G and 2 browser prgs. >> Despite all the bravado at HHC last year, it doesn't appear that HP is >> really all that committed to calculators. I do think JYA and >> that-calculator-group-manager-guy are talented, dedicated and >> hard-working, they just don't have a whole lot of corporate support >> behind them. > That for sure would explain a lot. Now I can not discuss everything about this in public. So I have sent > you a mail to this address you are using here. Please let me know if > this a valid address from you and that my mail has reached you. Andreas Andreas, I have a small family machine shop and I have either a 48gx or a 50g near each machine, as it is not convenient to carry them around to machines. There are 5 50g's currently and 3-4 48gx's. The 48gx's will be replaced as they wear out. My 2 sons are going to university and use 50g's that I bought them for their school work in EE, CE, and ME programs. My oldest daughter is currently attending the University of Zurich for a PHD in Mathematics. I bought her a 50g and put a bunch of programs on it for her. programs for me, and converted my 48 user-rpl programs for all of our 50g's in the shop. I bought all of the children their 50g's as gifts to help them in their schooling. They are not in the workforce to buy much thenselves. It woild be prohibitive for me to purchase a copy of your program for each calculator. My family are the only ones who use these calculators. Would you consider a family or site license? I sure don't expect software to be free, nor do I wish to offend you, or have you think I am belittling your work in writing such nice software. Steve Also, I need 2 programs written that probably should have parts of them written in Sysrpl. Both are browsers of a sort. I have about 60 programs that I use in the shop, some for solving interesctions, etc for machining, some others are programs that I use infrequently. The infrequent programs are hard to remember what you called them or what they do when you use them. Most of my programs run from a library on a card (48gx's) so I don't have to worry about losing them if I have a memory loss. I access them now with a program that is just a group of heirarchal custom menus. but 5 character filenames don't always remind me of which program it is. What I would like is to have a browser, that is, a scrolling list to select a line from to run the programs. It would have each program on a line with the first 5 chars or so be the name it is stored in, and the rest of the line a (short) descriptive phrase of what the program does. Some examples: EA4R ellips aprox 4 radii 2BCON 2 balls cone angle Scrolling, etc. should be done in sysrpl, which I know nothing about. Would you be interested in writing a program like that? You know so much about what is needed from the work on the treebrowser, that you would be a good person to do it, but I don't know if you are even interested, or what it would cost. Second browser I would like: I have a bunch of text files that are reference charts, lists of G codes and how to call them for different machines, etc. They are stored on an SD card. I want to pick which list from a browser like the first one (above) and then display either a list of text lines, or a paged version that shows page by page through a file (each page being the syntax of a certain command in a machine). I also have a tap and drill size chart, etc. Lists of drill sizes for helicoil taps, and many other reference charts. These browser programs might be generally useful to a variety of people, not just me. Perhaps they could be a mode in your Tree browser at some point? === Subject: Re: comments on the new treebrowser for 50G and 2 browser prgs. > What I would like is to have a browser, that is, a scrolling list to > select a line from to run the programs. It would have each program > on a line with the first 5 chars or so be the name it is stored in, > and the rest of the line a (short) descriptive phrase of what the program does. > Some examples: > EA4R ellips aprox 4 radii > 2BCON 2 balls cone angle [although '2BCON' is not a valid variable name :] The software you can purchase is undoubtedly excellent. Still, there are built-in functions which you can employ yourself, for example: << Select and run { { ellips aprox 4 radii EA4R } { 2 balls cone angle BBCON } { text file on SD card :3:xyz } { lower group A Adir } { lower group B Bdir } { Up one level UPDIR } } -90 SF 1 CHOOSE { DUP TYPE 12 == { { RCL SCROLL } + } IFT { pgm? } + EVAL } IFT >> 'pgm?' STO The displayed phrases can of course be whatever you want, including the short names as well, if desired. If you wish to organize a set of nested directories, each containing its own group of programs, any of the list entries may be a lower directory name, as illustrated, or UPDIR to return to a higher directory; each directory should contain its own 'pgm?' program, listing the items in that particular directory. > Second browser I would like: I have a bunch of text files that are reference charts, lists of G codes > and how to call them for different machines, etc. They are stored on an > SD card. I want to pick which list from a browser like the first one (above) and > then display either a list of text lines, or a paged version that shows > page by page through a file (each page being the syntax of a certain > command in a machine). I also have a tap and drill size chart, etc. > Lists of drill sizes for helicoil taps, and many other reference charts. The program shown above already includes browsing of any text files on an SD card. If you find the built-in CHOOSE menu a bit small for your taste, you may obtain a 99-byte FULL-SCREEN replacement command CHOOSF, for any HP48G/49G/50G calculator: All binaries for the full-screen CHOOSE are also included with this Rolodex application: http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=roldxj http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=6431 I don't think that the chosen screen shot quite illustrates that application's true features :) === Subject: Re: Which Calculator? >> P.S. My SHARP PC-1211 that I purchased 30 years ago had tape recorder >> interface. Glad to hear that HP made substantial progress since this >> time. The 35s was designed to meet the calculator requirements of the NCEES: http://www.ncees.org/exams/calculators/ HP decided not to put communcation capabilities on the 35s in order to >keep it eligible for the examinations. I guess Marketing decided that >this would boost sales. This is idiocy. === Subject: Re: Which Calculator? I think I'll buy some HP shares... >> P.S. My SHARP PC-1211 that I purchased 30 years ago had tape recorder > interface. Glad to hear that HP made substantial progress since this > time. >>The 35s was designed to meet the calculator requirements of the NCEES: >>http://www.ncees.org/exams/calculators/ >>HP decided not to put communcation capabilities on the 35s in order to >>keep it eligible for the examinations. I guess Marketing decided that >>this would boost sales. This is idiocy. === Subject: Re: Which Calculator? > Much more convenient with the lithium coin backup battery. My Psion MX had such a setup and quite often I ended up with all 3 battries beeing flat and all data lost. dirt cheap by now so no reason not to use it in calculators as well. Martin === Subject: Re: Which Calculator? > Much more convenient with the lithium coin backup battery. My Psion MX had such a setup and quite often I ended up with all 3 > battries beeing flat and all data lost. dirt cheap by now so no reason not to use it in calculators as well. Martin flash is slightly slow to write making it not suitable for a system's main ram. But flash works great for storage. Which is why most modern graphing calculators have flash memory. === Subject: Re: Which Calculator? > On Sep 17, 5:55 am, Martin Krischik > Much more convenient with the lithium coin backup battery. >> My Psion MX had such a setup and quite often I ended up with all 3 >> battries beeing flat and all data lost. >> dirt cheap by now so no reason not to use it in calculators as well. >> Martin flash is slightly slow to write making it not suitable for a system's > main ram. It's much faster than the 6502 used in HPs low-end calculators, and even much faster than the ARM in the HP49/50. The problem that I see > But flash works great for storage. Which is why most modern > graphing calculators have flash memory. The TI ads I recall refer to the storage as memory. :-) Rich === Subject: Re: Which Calculator? > But flash works great for storage. Which is why most modern > graphing calculators have flash memory. The TI ads I recall refer to the storage as memory. :-) > Yes - TI claims that the 84+SE has 9 times the memory of the 83+. http://education.ti.com/educationportal/sites/US/productDetail/us ti84pse.html This of course is referring to its 1.5 MB (compared to 160K on the this is to help keep the TI-89 sales up. http://www.ticalc.org/basics/calculators/ti-84plus-se.html http://www.ticalc.org/basics/calculators/ti-86.html === Subject: Re: Which Calculator? > Much more convenient with the lithium coin backup battery. >> My Psion MX had such a setup and quite often I ended up with all 3 >> battries beeing flat and all data lost. >> dirt cheap by now so no reason not to use it in calculators as well. >> Martin > flash is slightly slow to write making it not suitable for a system's > main ram. It's much faster than the 6502 used in HPs low-end calculators, and > even much faster than the ARM in the HP49/50. The problem that I see Not only that, but the necessity in most flash configurations to write a whole block at a time. That more than then native write-speed is why writing flash is considered slow. Not to mention flash has a limited number of write cycles, while standard ram does not, it lasts until the components fail. === Subject: HP 49G dead Hello together, it seems that my lovely HP 49G is dead. If I try to switch on, it only beeps with a frequence of about 2 Hz (beep-beep...) and on the display I can hardly see Try to recover memory. A hard reset during the beeping switch the calc off. Removing the batteries for more than 24 hours does not help. Any idea to resuscitate my baby, or any other hint? Heiko === Subject: Re: HP 49G dead Heiko Arnemann a .8ecrit : > Hello together, > it seems that my lovely HP 49G is dead. If I try to switch on, it only beeps with a frequence of about 2 Hz > (beep-beep...) and on the display > I can hardly see Try to recover memory. A hard reset during the beeping switch the calc off. Removing the batteries for more than 24 hours does not help. Any idea to resuscitate my baby, or any other hint? Heiko Have look at here : http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv010.cgi?read=28427 === Subject: numeric solving vs graph I had a quite simple problem, or so I thought. I needed to find the first 3 values of t for which dx/dt =0, with x(t) = 4 sin3t e^(-t). I put the equation on the stack, LS+Calc -> DERVX. It's some crazy formula filling up the display. Functions in ALG don't really make it look any better, so I leave it as is. I put 0 on the stack and then =, which gives me dx/dt = 0. Then I go to LS+S.SLV -> SOLVE (the first one). The result after a few seconds is { }. Graphing that function, showing f', and getting the roots in Graph mode reveal the correct answer of t=0.416 for the first, and from that I can deduce t(n) = 0.416+n*PI/3. How can I make it work numerically? === Subject: Re: numeric solving vs graph I had a quite simple problem, or so I thought. I needed to find the > first 3 values of t for which dx/dt =0, with x(t) = 4 sin3t e^(-t). I put the equation on the stack, LS+Calc -> DERVX. It's some crazy > formula filling up the display. Functions in ALG don't really make it > look any better, so I leave it as is. > I put 0 on the stack and then =, which gives me dx/dt = 0. Then I go to LS+S.SLV -> SOLVE (the first one). The result after a few > seconds is { }. Graphing that function, showing f', and getting the roots in Graph > mode reveal the correct answer of t=0.416 for the first, and from that > I can deduce t(n) = 0.416+n*PI/3. How can I make it work numerically? > I got that dx/dt = (12 cos(3t) - 4 sin(3t))/e^t. The symbolic solver also gave me { }, so I used the numeric solver. Use STEQ to store level 1 of the stack into variable EQ, then launch the numeric solver ([RS]7 (NUM.SLV) 1. Solve equation). Supply an initial guess (I used 1) and I got the root 1.0646... Different guesses will result in different roots, though this method is somewhat blind. If you want the first 3 values where dx/dt = 0, it's probably easier to use the grapher. Use STEQ, then hold [LS] F1, ERASE DRAW. When in the graphing environment, move the cursor close to the root, press FCN, then ROOT. Do this for the first 3 intersections and get t = 1.0646, t = 2.1118, t = 3.1590. === Subject: Re: numeric solving vs graph > I got that dx/dt = (12 cos(3t) - 4 sin(3t))/e^t. The symbolic solver also gave me { }, so I used the numeric solver. > ... > If you want the first 3 values where dx/dt = 0, it's probably easier > to use the grapher. > ... > Use STEQ, then hold [LS] F1, ERASE DRAW. When in > the graphing environment, move the cursor close to the root, press > FCN, then ROOT. Well, I don't want to disturb this discussion about various more or less elegant ways to make the calculator solve the problem, but in this case there is a much easier and more straightforward way: simply use your own brain, the calculator almost provided the solution anyway: > I got that dx/dt = (12 cos(3t) - 4 sin(3t))/e^t. So the rest is trivial: a local minimum or maximum of x(t) requires dx/dt = 0 => 12 cos(3t) - 4 sin(3t) = 0 => t = 1/3 arctan 3 = 0.4163... Since tan x = tan(x + Pi), simply add multiples of Pi/3 for further solutions, i.e. t = 0.4163, 1.4635, 2.5107, 3.5579, 4.6051... It's that easy. Okay, I didn't check the second derivate. <8) Maybe this is a good example for combining the benefits of our little electronic helpers with good old plain man-made math. The former provides the derivate, the latter gives the final result. In this case even the correct one. 8-) Dieter === Subject: Re: numeric solving vs graph > Maybe this is a good example for combining the benefits of our little > electronic helpers with good old plain man-made math. The former > provides the derivate, the latter gives the final result. > In this case even the correct one. 8-) I totally agree. I can do this by hand. But in a test setting I'd rather concentrate on the subject matter and not worry about taking derivatives. This is not for a Calculus class but EE. === Subject: Re: numeric solving vs graph > Maybe this is a good example for combining the benefits of our little > electronic helpers with good old plain man-made math. The former > provides the derivate, the latter gives the final result. > In this case even the correct one. 8-) > Exactly -- the calculator is (or should be) and extension to the brain, not a replacement. I didn't think about that though, since I was more focused on calculator usage with this question. === Subject: Re: numeric solving vs graph > Different guesses will result in different roots, > though this method is somewhat blind. An aid to systematic searching for numeric ROOTS over an interval: UserRPL program listing: === Subject: Re: numeric solving vs graph > On Sep 20, 11:11pm, Koehler <.koeh...@gmail.com > Hello all, > I had a quite simple problem, or so I thought. I needed to find the > first 3 values of t for which dx/dt =0, with x(t) = 4 sin3t e^(-t). > I put the equation on the stack, LS+Calc -> DERVX. It's some crazy > formula filling up the display. Functions in ALG don't really make it > look any better, so I leave it as is. > I put 0 on the stack and then =, which gives me dx/dt = 0. > Then I go to LS+S.SLV -> SOLVE (the first one). The result after a few > seconds is { }. > Graphing that function, showing f', and getting the roots in Graph > mode reveal the correct answer of t=0.416 for the first, and from that > I can deduce t(n) = 0.416+n*PI/3. > How can I make it work numerically? > > I got that dx/dt = (12 cos(3t) - 4 sin(3t))/e^t. The symbolic solver also gave me { }, so I used the numeric solver. > Use STEQ to store level 1 of the stack into variable EQ, then launch > the numeric solver ([RS]7 (NUM.SLV) 1. Solve equation). Supply an > initial guess (I used 1) and I got the root 1.0646... Different > guesses will result in different roots, though this method is somewhat > blind. If you want the first 3 values where dx/dt = 0, it's probably easier > to use the grapher. Use STEQ, then hold [LS] F1, ERASE DRAW. When in > the graphing environment, move the cursor close to the root, press > FCN, then ROOT. Do this for the first 3 intersections and get t = > 1.0646, t = 2.1118, t = 3.1590. Curious. For the same dy/dx as you have, I find different zeroes. Namely: 0.4163, 1.4635 and 2.5101, to 4 decimal places. === Subject: Re: numeric solving vs graph > I had a quite simple problem, or so I thought. I needed to find the > first 3 values of t for which dx/dt =0, with x(t) = 4 sin3t e^(-t). > I put the equation on the stack, LS+Calc -> DERVX. It's some crazy > formula filling up the display. Functions in ALG don't really make it > look any better, so I leave it as is. > I put 0 on the stack and then =, which gives me dx/dt = 0. > Then I go to LS+S.SLV -> SOLVE (the first one). The result after a few > seconds is { }. > Graphing that function, showing f', and getting the roots in Graph > mode reveal the correct answer of t=0.416 for the first, and from that > I can deduce t(n) = 0.416+n*PI/3. > How can I make it work numerically? > > I got that dx/dt = (12 cos(3t) - 4 sin(3t))/e^t. > The symbolic solver also gave me { }, so I used the numeric solver. > Use STEQ to store level 1 of the stack into variable EQ, then launch > the numeric solver ([RS]7 (NUM.SLV) 1. Solve equation). Supply an > initial guess (I used 1) and I got the root 1.0646... Different > guesses will result in different roots, though this method is somewhat > blind. > If you want the first 3 values where dx/dt = 0, it's probably easier > to use the grapher. Use STEQ, then hold [LS] F1, ERASE DRAW. When in > the graphing environment, move the cursor close to the root, press > FCN, then ROOT. Do this for the first 3 intersections and get t = > 1.0646, t = 2.1118, t = 3.1590. > Curious. For the same dy/dx as you have, I find different zeroes. Namely: 0.4163, 1.4635 and 2.5107, to 4 decimal places.- That's weird. I just did the same thing again and got your roots. Now I'm not sure what happened last time. === Subject: Re: numeric solving vs graph > > On Sep 20, 11:11pm, Koehler <.koeh...@gmail.com > Hello all, > I had a quite simple problem, or so I thought. I needed to find the > first 3 values of t for which dx/dt =0, with x(t) = 4 sin3t e^(-t). > I put the equation on the stack, LS+Calc -> DERVX. It's some crazy > formula filling up the display. Functions in ALG don't really make it > look any better, so I leave it as is. > I put 0 on the stack and then =, which gives me dx/dt = 0. > Then I go to LS+S.SLV -> SOLVE (the first one). The result after a few > seconds is { }. > Graphing that function, showing f', and getting the roots in Graph > mode reveal the correct answer of t=0.416 for the first, and from that > I can deduce t(n) = 0.416+n*PI/3. > How can I make it work numerically? > > I got that dx/dt = (12 cos(3t) - 4 sin(3t))/e^t. > The symbolic solver also gave me { }, so I used the numeric solver. > Use STEQ to store level 1 of the stack into variable EQ, then launch > the numeric solver ([RS]7 (NUM.SLV) 1. Solve equation). Supply an > initial guess (I used 1) and I got the root 1.0646... Different > guesses will result in different roots, though this method is somewhat > blind. > If you want the first 3 values where dx/dt = 0, it's probably easier > to use the grapher. Use STEQ, then hold [LS] F1, ERASE DRAW. When in > the graphing environment, move the cursor close to the root, press > FCN, then ROOT. Do this for the first 3 intersections and get t = > 1.0646, t = 2.1118, t = 3.1590. > > Curious. For the same dy/dx as you have, I find different zeroes. > Namely: 0.4163, 1.4635 and 2.5107, to 4 decimal places.- That's weird. I just did the same thing again and got your roots. Now > I'm not sure what happened last time. We'll probably never know. === Subject: Who designed HP 17BII+?... Whoever designed this calculator, made assumption that trigonometric functions are not needed for business calculations. Therefore, HP 17bII+ doesn't have trigonometric functions. Surprisingly, it has constant pi. My young cousin who got dead HP 17bII+ as birthday gift asked: Well... How I will be calculating periodic demand? I had no answer. We checked HP12. No trig functions. I checked my TI BA II - all trig functions, reverse, hyperbolic and reverse... Or... Maybe I cannot find the menu entry or proper key?... === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... > Whoever designed this calculator, made assumption that trigonometric > functions are not needed for business calculations. Therefore, HP > 17bII+ doesn't have trigonometric functions. Surprisingly, it has > constant pi. My young cousin who got dead HP 17bII+ as birthday gift asked: > Well... How I will be calculating periodic demand? I had no answer. > We checked HP12. No trig functions. I checked my TI BA II - all trig > functions, reverse, hyperbolic and reverse... Or... Maybe I cannot find the menu entry or proper key?... The new 20B has trig. -- === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... The 17b series is quite old; has numeric solver, no built-in trig (although I have created satisfactory trig functions for myself, using summations, and so could anyone else, perhaps using even better clever formulas which give good enough results for financial applications). The old 19B (a folding clamshell calculator) is much like the 17B, but added trig (and graphing), I believe. more features tend to appear in newer products at the same tier, although sometimes there are also unseen losses (e.g. the care taken with algorithms sometimes slips, and wrong results have been known to appear in new models which represent themselves as updates of the originals, yet are only imitations). As for the buyer who purchases blindly, without even looking at product specs, that's a whole other area of inadequacy, not attributable to any product or manufacturer which clearly and honestly states its specifications up front. === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... As for the buyer who purchases blindly, >without even looking at product specs, How many times I will keep repeating: THIS CALCULATOR IS REQUIRED FOR SOME COURSE, and OTHER COURSE REQUIERS TRIG FUNCTIONS. >that's a whole other area of inadequacy, >not attributable to any product or manufacturer >which clearly and honestly states its specifications up front. > And THIS IS GOOD CALCULATOR, BUT CALCULATOR WITHOUT TRIG IS A TRASH. Whatever is manufacturer and whatever specs says. I don't know any other calculator that doesn't provide trigs, except HP. By the way, this is in sync with great design of new HP 35, that has complex trig functions, but not inverse, that has no complex hyperbolic functions, where you cannot calculate conjugate complex, and where you cannot extract real and imaginary. The same idea: use slide rule. There should be attached slide rule. With HP logo. === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... [re courses requiring specific calculators] Direct rant at school which doesn't allow choice; neither HP nor the product had anything to do with that. Wail, for the world's wrong. http://www.bartleby.com/66/31/53931.html Wise men ne'er sit and wail their woes, But presently prevent the ways to wail. http://www.bartleby.com/66/85/50285.html === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... > How many times I will keep repeating: THIS CALCULATOR IS REQUIRED FOR > SOME COURSE, and OTHER COURSE REQUIRES TRIG FUNCTIONS. > By the way, this is in sync with great design of new HP 35, that has > complex trig functions, but not inverse, that has no complex > hyperbolic functions, where you cannot calculate conjugate complex, > and where you cannot extract real and imaginary. TI-84+ is REQUIRED for statistics course; other course in MATHEMATICS department requires complex trig. Whoops! Better get my HP50. === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... > TI-84+ is REQUIRED for statistics course; other course in MATHEMATICS > department requires complex trig. Whoops! Better get my HP50. I've also never had any trouble in any courses that require a specific unit. All it generally means is that you don't get any help when you ask the teacher. Considering I always knew more about calculators than the professor, this was never much of a problem. In fact, the adds a lot more, was for a younger sister to use on her 39 when she took the same stupid statistics class I took in high school. TW === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... > Whoever designed this calculator, made assumption that trigonometric >> functions are not needed for business calculations. Therefore, HP >> 17bII+ doesn't have trigonometric functions. Surprisingly, it has >> constant pi. >> My young cousin who got dead HP 17bII+ as birthday gift asked: >> Well... How I will be calculating periodic demand? I had no answer. >> We checked HP12. No trig functions. I checked my TI BA II - all trig >> functions, reverse, hyperbolic and reverse... >> Or... Maybe I cannot find the menu entry or proper key?... >> The new 20B has trig. > Yes. But it doesn't have solevr and equations. This is more or less the same functionality as TI BA II and much less than TI BA II PROFESSIONAL that costs the same and can be purchased from Office Max right from the shelf === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... >> Whoever designed this calculator, made assumption that trigonometric >> functions are not needed for business calculations. Therefore, HP >> 17bII+ doesn't have trigonometric functions. Surprisingly, it has >> constant pi. >> My young cousin who got dead HP 17bII+ as birthday gift asked: >> Well... How I will be calculating periodic demand? I had no answer. >> We checked HP12. No trig functions. I checked my TI BA II - all trig >> functions, reverse, hyperbolic and reverse... >> Or... Maybe I cannot find the menu entry or proper key?... >> >The new 20B has trig. Yes. But it doesn't have solevr and equations. This is more or less > the same functionality as TI BA II and much less than TI BA II > PROFESSIONAL that costs the same and can be purchased from Office Max > right from the shelf Let's see. You have some options. 1) But another business calculator with the solver and equations and trig. Oops. No other options exist that are still made, are there? So, rather rough to beat up on HP for not providing something that NO ONE ELSE provides either. Yes, you could find a 95LX, 100LX, 200LX, or 19BII calculator if you like. 2) The 20b has more functionality built into it than the TI BAII Plus. The BAII Plus Professional has only a couple of functions not included in the 20b...things such as MIRR. However, the 20b has a host of functions that even the TI BAII Plus professional does not have. Probability distributions, standard error, covariance, etc. 3) The 17b2+ is an evolution from the 17BII which evolved from the 17B. NONE of this lineage had built-in trig functions. The only business calculator that HP ever made with the solver and trig functions was the 19B/19BII. Buy one off ebay if you want one. 4) If this is such a big deal to you, might I suggest you do more research before buying a machine in the future? It is very plain that the 17BII+ does not have trig functions even with 5 minutes of searching. Since none of its ancestors in its direct line ever had trig functions, it was a mistake to assume it did without checking. Finally, 5) I agree with Tim. Perhaps you should simply go buy a TI? Of course, you won't have any equations at all, will you? Enjoy! Gene P.S. I do agree that the inclusion of PI makes no sense on the 17b2+. === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... 4) If this is such a big deal to you, might I suggest you do more >research before buying a machine in the future? It is very plain that >the 17BII+ does not have trig functions even with 5 minutes of >searching. Since none of its ancestors in its direct line ever had >trig functions, it was a mistake to assume it did without checking. Finally, Finally, reqading with understanding has great future. But it seems to be hard. Label A: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course. REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS CALCULATOR. If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label A. Other course REQUIRES trigonometric functions. BOTH IN BUSINESS SCHOOL. 5) I agree with Tim. Perhaps you should simply go buy a TI? Of course, >you won't have any equations at all, will you? Enjoy! Label B: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course. REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS CALCULATOR. If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label B. Bottom line: I purchased for him also TI BA II PROFESSIONAL. Gene P.S. I do agree that the inclusion of PI makes no sense on the 17b2+. Then, what I shoud say this kid: How I will calculate periodic demand?... === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... Get cheap calculator off the shelf at your local office supply store that has trig functions. >4) If this is such a big deal to you, might I suggest you do more >>research before buying a machine in the future? It is very plain that >>the 17BII+ does not have trig functions even with 5 minutes of >>searching. Since none of its ancestors in its direct line ever had >>trig functions, it was a mistake to assume it did without checking. >>Finally, Finally, reqading with understanding has great future. But it seems to > be hard. Label A: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course. > REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS > CALCULATOR. If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label A. Other course REQUIRES trigonometric functions. BOTH IN BUSINESS > SCHOOL. >>5) I agree with Tim. Perhaps you should simply go buy a TI? Of course, >>you won't have any equations at all, will you? Enjoy! Label B: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course. > REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS > CALCULATOR. If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label B. Bottom line: I purchased for him also TI BA II PROFESSIONAL. >>Gene >>P.S. I do agree that the inclusion of PI makes no sense on the 17b2+. Then, what I shoud say this kid: How I will calculate periodic > demand?... === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... Dunno who designed it, but I reckon right now its the best CURRENT financial calculator. I've been evaluating all the ones I could find and it fits the . I was able to program MIRR into it rather easily using a solution from the 19B manual. The TI has MIRR already, but the quality of the actual buttons and stuff is inferior to the HP and it doesn't have a solver. There are some known bugs in the latest rev of the 17bII+ in terms of the solver, which is dissappointing, so hopefully HP will come out with something better in the future. If they still made the 19B I would get it. It has a few more functions available in the solver which are not in the 17B, such as trig and PV, FV, etc. But you can write solvers to do those things, but you just have to use lower level functions and its a bit more tedious and complicated to figure out. If HP would make a new calculator that had solver, financial functions(including MIRR for crise sakes), macro programming, trig and some additional scientific functions...I would buy it tomorrow for any price. But until that time, for real estate investing...the 17bII+ is probably the best calculator currently sold. That's my opinion. Anyone know of anything else? is there a higher end calculator that does everything the 17B does, with all the other stuff as well and not too complicated to use? === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... > Label A: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course. > REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS > CALCULATOR. Well if you said that in the first place we wouldn't have assumed otherwise. > If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label A. There was no label A until now. Is it our fault you didn't bother to give relevant information? > Other course REQUIRES trigonometric functions. BOTH IN BUSINESS > SCHOOL. Yup. Hence the fact that the new business calc has them. > Label B: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course. > REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS > CALCULATOR. Error, goto start. . . rinse. . . repeat. . . > Then, what I shoud say this kid: How I will calculate periodic > demand?... Then why should we bother to show you how to get around this when all you ever do is insult, troll, and generally behave disagreeably? (said with a wheezy voice) He has chosen. . . pooooorly. TW PS - most successful business calculator ever in the history of this planet has no trig functions. . . === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... : > Label A: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course. : > REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS : > CALCULATOR. : Well if you said that in the first place we wouldn't have assumed : otherwise. : > If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label A. : There was no label A until now. Is it our fault you didn't bother to : give relevant information? : > Other course REQUIRES trigonometric functions. BOTH IN BUSINESS : > SCHOOL. : Yup. Hence the fact that the new business calc has them. : > Label B: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course. : > REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS : > CALCULATOR. : Error, goto start. . . rinse. . . repeat. . . : > Then, what I shoud say this kid: How I will calculate periodic : > demand?... : Then why should we bother to show you how to get around this when all : you ever do is insult, troll, and generally behave disagreeably? : (said with a wheezy voice) He has chosen. . . pooooorly. : TW : PS - most successful business calculator ever in the history of this : planet has no trig functions. . . I have to admit I enjoy reading the trolls from . I would suggest that people not to take the trolls seriously and to remember that the trolls are setup so that there is never a solution. -- ----- Keep working millions on welfare depend on you === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... It doesn't have trig. > Yes. But it doesn't have solevr and equations. This is more or less > the same functionality as TI BA II and much less than TI BA II > PROFESSIONAL that costs the same and can be purchased from Office Max > right from the shelf You and he will obviously be happier with the TI one and so should it and exchange. TW === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... >It doesn't have trig. > Yes. But it doesn't have solevr and equations. This is more or less >> the same functionality as TI BA II and much less than TI BA II >> PROFESSIONAL that costs the same and can be purchased from Office Max >> right from the shelf You and he will obviously be happier with the TI one and so should it >and exchange. > Go away. HP is REQUIRED for whatever reasons. Of course, I would be much happier with TI. Calculator with trigonometric function is a joke === > Go away. HP is REQUIRED for whatever reasons. Of course, I would be > much happier with TI. Calculator with trigonometric function is a joke > I suppose you could program the trig functions using their Taylor series expansions... TI BA II Plus PROFESSIONAL looks like a good choice. Vanilla TI BA II Plus looks like it's built to the same form factor as the TI-30X IIS which has poor key quality. Schools should not require a certain brand of calculator, whether that's TI, HP, Casio, Sharp, or whatever. Teachers/professors/ textbooks should not be bought off by a particular calculator manufacturer to only teach using that brand. All that does is forces a monopoly. === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... > Schools should not require a certain brand of calculator, whether > that's TI, HP, Casio, Sharp, or whatever. Teachers/professors/ > textbooks should not be bought off by a particular calculator > manufacturer to only teach using that brand. All that does is forces a > monopoly. I agree in principle, although I do see the point that the teachers might have, that it makes their lives a heck of a lot more complicated when they have to accomodate a wide variety of tools... it would be a bit like if every student was to pick his/her own text book. One possible solution (I am an idealist :-) ) would be for the schools to come up with an agreed upon detailed specs or standard, down to UI details if they must, that each manufacturer could decide to implement. --Sylvain === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... > Schools should not require a certain brand of calculator, whether > that's TI, HP, Casio, Sharp, or whatever. Teachers/professors/ > textbooks should not be bought off by a particular calculator > manufacturer to only teach using that brand. All that does is forces a > monopoly. I agree in principle, although I do see the point that the teachers might > have, that it makes their lives a heck of a lot more complicated when they > have to accomodate a wide variety of tools... it would be a bit like if > every student was to pick his/her own text book. One possible solution (I am an idealist :-) ) would be for the schools to > come up with an agreed upon detailed specs or standard, down to UI details > if they must, that each manufacturer could decide to implement. --Sylvain Or that students could actually read the manual of whichever calculator they decide to buy, so that when the teacher says, for instance, Find the roots of this equation, each student knows exactly what to do without the teacher walking through keystroke-by- keystroke. Then as long as the calculator supports that particular function or is programmable, it will work. === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... >> One possible solution (I am an idealist :-) ) would be for the schools to >> come up with an agreed upon detailed specs or standard, Or that students could actually read the manual I said that I was an idealist, not delusional :-) --Sylvain === Subject: Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?... > Or that students could actually read the manual I said that I was an idealist, not delusional :-) === Subject: Setting a menu in program for use during a program? I know how to use the WAIT command with -1, but that does not allow the new menu to appear for use during the program. Does any one know of something like a SYSEVAL command which will make a new menu appear to be used by a DO .... UNTIL KEY END loop without having to end one program and initiating another program to get the menu to appear? === Subject: Re: Setting a menu in program for use during a program? > I know how to use the WAIT command with -1, but that > does not allow the new menu to appear for use during the program. Doesn't it display the current menu and wait for a keypress? (returning the keypress in rc.p format) > Does any one know of something like a SYSEVAL command > which will make a new menu appear > to be used by a DO .... UNTIL KEY END loop To display the menu without halting, call SysRPL functions DispMenu.1 or DispMenu (the latter also calls SetDA3Valid) If one wants to perform the complete stack+menu display in the midst of an ongoing program, one may call SysDisplay Copying from Joe Horn's xref4849 entry point lists http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=xref4849 ----- ----- -- 3A1E8 2DFE0 DispMenu 3A1FC 2DFF4 DispMenu.1 386A1 2EF67 SysDisplay Where HP48G includes HP48S (for all supported entries), and HP49G includes 49G+ and 50G === Subject: Re: Setting a menu in program for use during a program? I know how to use the WAIT command with -1, but that > does not allow the new menu to appear for use during the program. Doesn't it display the current menu and wait for a keypress? > (returning the keypress in rc.p format) I want the new manu to appear before the program halts, so that I can use it with a DO .....UNTIL KEY END loop running until a key is pressed. Using # 2DFE0h SYSEVAL ,as suggested below, seem to do just what I need. Does any one know of something like a SYSEVAL command > which will make a new menu appear > to be used by a DO .... UNTIL KEY END loop To display the menu without halting, > call SysRPL functions DispMenu.1 or DispMenu > (the latter also calls SetDA3Valid) If one wants to perform the complete stack+menu display > in the midst of an ongoing program, one may call SysDisplay Copying from Joe Horn's xref4849 entry point lists > http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=xref4849 ----- ----- -- > 3A1E8 2DFE0 DispMenu > 3A1FC 2DFF4 DispMenu.1 > 386A1 2EF67 SysDisplay Where HP48G includes HP48S (for all supported entries), > and HP49G includes 49G+ and 50G === Subject: Re: Setting a menu in program for use during a program? Inserting a small detail: > ----- ----- -- > 3A1E8 2DFE0 DispMenu > 3A1FC 2DFF4 DispMenu.1 > 386A1 2EF67 SysDisplay Where HP48G includes HP48S (for all supported entries), > and HP49G includes 49G+ and 50G [and 48Gii] Q: What's in a name? A: Often much confusion :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Importance_of_Being_Earnest http://www.hoboes.com/html/FireBlade/Wilde/earnest/ [the complete play] === Subject: us as a community of nerds let's really come together. i mean face it anyone who pays attention to the claculator they purchase is proud to be a nerd. their is one problem. there are few programs that work for the the hp50g. that is pretty bad, i downloaded the chemistry lab 2.7 and the periodic table was in spanish, helium wasn't in the table. the compound names and such is okay but i had no poly atomic ions. the statistics progam stat pack newest one was fairly descent again missed some very important things not good. my professor rated my work less than a 70 but the things that i had she thought were beautiful. i have had this mini computer for some time now and i really like it however until i can figure out how to change things in a program or add things, delete things, i think this product doesn't work to potential and that is upsetting because the hp50g can whip the shit out of a ti whatever the only problem here is that hp doesn't market their stuff well enough so no one knows this mini computers potential. two is half ass programs thast is available for the hp50g since most people who want the best expect the best don't recieve the best they talk bad about it. NOT GOOD! we need to begin upgrade these programs to suit the hp50g, and update what is on these programs. and clean them up. i am in springfield college so our server is quite fast. if there is anything i could do to make this more possible i would love to contribute, the only problem is thast i don't know how to program. === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > let's really come together. i mean face it anyone who pays attention > to the claculator they purchase is proud to be a nerd. > their is one problem. there are few programs that work for the the > hp50g. that is pretty bad, i downloaded the chemistry lab 2.7 and the > periodic table was in spanish, helium wasn't in the table. the > compound names and such is okay but i had no poly atomic ions. > the statistics progam stat pack newest one was fairly descent again > missed some very important things not good. my professor rated my work > less than a 70 but the things that i had she thought were beautiful. > i have had this mini computer for some time now and i really like it > however until i can figure out how to change things in a program or > add things, delete things, i think this product doesn't work to > potential and that is upsetting because the hp50g can whip the shit > out of a ti whatever > the only problem here is that hp doesn't market their stuff well > enough so no one knows this mini computers potential. two is half ass > programs thast is available for the hp50g since most people who want > the best expect the best don't recieve the best they talk bad about > it. > NOT GOOD! > we need to begin upgrade these programs to suit the hp50g, and update > what is on these programs. and clean them up. > i am in springfield college so our server is quite fast. if there is > anything i could do to make this more possible i would love to > contribute, the only problem is thast i don't know how to program. I can't believe that what I just read was written by someone currently in college. TAKE PRIDE IN WHAT YOU WRITE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Learn how to form a sentence, use a dictionary or spell-checking program, pathetic, simply pathetic. - LW === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds I can't believe that what I just read was written by someone currently >in college. TAKE PRIDE IN WHAT YOU WRITE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Learn >how to form a sentence, use a dictionary or spell-checking program, >pathetic, simply pathetic. - LW No way. 40% of high school graduates in this country cannot read, write and do simple arithmetic. === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds No way. 40% of high school graduates in this country cannot read, > write and do simple arithmetic. Where's the source for that statistic? I can totally believe you, though. What about this one: http://archives.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/index.html 87% of American young adults cannot find Iraq on a world map. 70% can't even find New Jersey. === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds >let's really come together. i mean face it anyone who pays attention >to the claculator they purchase is proud to be a nerd. What is nerd?... These idiots from movie Revenge of the nerds?... I have a lot of calculators, pay enough attention, but I don't consider myself a nerd. === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > What is nerd?... These idiots from movie Revenge of the nerds?... > I have a lot of calculators, pay enough attention, but I don't > consider myself a nerd. Gene: You pay attention, except for ... 1) Checking to see if a business calculator from HP has trig functions. Since that model line (17B, 17BII, 17BII+) has NEVER had trig functions, it is difficult to see how much attention you have been paying. and 2) Telling people in a thread that a calculator purchase was required when you start a thread, instead of mid-way through it. It is even worse form to complain that you're having to repeat yourself when you never stated the requirement in the first place. Oh yeah... you pay lots of attention. === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > Oh yeah... you pay lots of attention. Slightly modified but appropriate in so many different ways: There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, if you can, you do; if you can't, you complain about those who do. Some people do nothing but complain. Obviously they are incapable of to keep the conversation civil. Back on topic, I think that the very inclusion of trig functions on the 20b shows that HP is serious about making their financial models competitive with TI. If the 20b's new functionality could be added to the 17bII+, there would be little to complain about. The complaints about build quality were true about the old version of the 17bII+ that the original poster has, but the new version is of excellent build quality. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > Back on topic, I think that the very inclusion of trig functions on the 20b > shows that HP is serious about making their financial models competitive > with TI. If the 20b's new functionality could be added to the 17bII+, there > would be little to complain about. The complaints about build quality were > true about the old version of the 17bII+ that the original poster has, but > the new version is of excellent build quality. > It's still pretty expensive, though. At $85, I would expect impeccable build quality. The TI BA+ PROFESSIONAL has a huge price advantage because it only costs $35. Anybody know about its build quality? (I don't have one, and I don't have a 17bII+ either.) Maybe a 17bIII with added trig functions? The 17bII+ does not have too much code in common with the 17bII, so I don't see any reason why the next version in the 17b series can't have trig functions (lineage is not an excuse). They are a piece of cake to program using Taylor series expansions. === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > It's still pretty expensive, though. At $85, I would expect impeccable > build quality. The TI BA+ PROFESSIONAL has a huge price advantage > because it only costs $35. Anybody know about its build quality? (I > don't have one, and I don't have a 17bII+ either.) The TI BA II+ Professional is $60, and its build quality is fairly decent. It's the TI BA II+ that is $35, and that has the same build quality as TI's $13 scientifics. The BA II+ best competes with the 20b. The BA II+ Professional doesn't really have a direct HP competitor. Pricewise it's comparable to the 12C, but the two seem to target completely different markets. The build quality of the new (silver) 17bII+ is quite good. It feels at least as good as the 35s on the outside, though I don't know how they compare inside. I've used all of the above, and for build quality, I would probably rate them as follows (0 worst, 10 best): 17bII+ (silver): 9.5 BA II+ Pro: 6 (maybe 7 -- it's been probably 2 years since I last used one) BA II+: 4 20b: 3.5 (sorry, but although the interior quality is amazing, the part that you see and touch is *bad*) I'd probably rank the obsolete gold 17bII+ somewhere between the BA II+ and the BA II+ Professional. That was definitely not worth $85. Case in point: over a period of more than four years I sold only 7 of the old gold 17bII+. In the eight months I have had the silver one, I have sold 22 of the new ones. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > I've used all of the above, and for build quality, I would probably rate > them as follows (0 worst, 10 best): > 17bII+ (silver): 9.5 > BA II+ Pro: 6 (maybe 7 -- it's been probably 2 years since I last used one) > BA II+: 4 > 20b: 3.5 (sorry, but although the interior quality is amazing, the part that > you see and touch is *bad*) > Sorry for bugging you, but where would you put the 35s and 50g on this 0-10 rating scale? === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > I've used all of the above, and for build quality, I would probably rate > them as follows (0 worst, 10 best): > 17bII+ (silver): 9.5 > BA II+ Pro: 6 (maybe 7 -- it's been probably 2 years since I last used > one) > BA II+: 4 > 20b: 3.5 (sorry, but although the interior quality is amazing, the part > that > you see and touch is *bad*) > Sorry for bugging you, but where would you put the 35s and 50g on this > 0-10 rating scale? The 35s is a little trickier. I normally would have put at the same as the 17bII+, but I have heard some reports of it missing keystrokes (not in my experience, though), so I am not sure. I'll put it at the same 9.5 and let someone with more experience correct me if I am wrong. :) The 50g I'd put around 8.5. It loses a bit due to the all-plastic construction and lots of open space inside giving it a more hollow feel, plus it just looks cheaper than the 35s, but it isn't by any means bad. It's not really a quality thing, so it's not affecting my rating here, but I would prefer it with a double-wide ENTER key, too. I don't think I would rank the 48GX any higher, though an older one with multi-shot injection molded keys would maybe gain half a point. Note I am *not* talking about the quality of the electronics, just the industrial design. Otherwise the 35s would lose points to the 17bII+ for the inferior screen and the 50g would lose points for its battery life. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds 2) Telling people in a thread that a calculator purchase was required >when you start a thread, instead of mid-way through it. It is even >worse form to complain that you're having to repeat yourself when you >never stated the requirement in the first place. > Absence or presence of trig funstions has nothing with the issue whether calculator is required or not. This is objective fact. I informed anout requirements when HP lovers started responding go to hell, buy TI. P.S. Initial reaction of my cousing when I handed him over TI BA professional was WOW!!! As he told me, TI has at least twice as many business functions than HP. He told, quote: if HP is required, I will keep it on the desk, but calculations I will do with TI hidden under the desk. Of course, as long as professor will not require solver. To solve equations that contain pi but not sin === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > P.S. Initial reaction of my cousing when I handed him over TI BA > professional was WOW!!! As he told me, TI has at least twice as many > business functions than HP. He told, quote: if HP is required, I will > keep it on the desk, but calculations I will do with TI hidden under > the desk. Of course, as long as professor will not require solver. To > solve equations that contain pi but not sin WOW!!! Perhaps you should inquire about a new job? http://education.ti.com/educationportal/sites/US/nonProductSingle/about marcom.html You could probably solve those equations on the TI without the solver app; just work on the equation from the inside out and use the calculator as a scientific calculator to crunch numbers. === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds >> What is nerd?... These idiots from movie Revenge of the nerds?... >> I have a lot of calculators, pay enough attention, but I don't >> consider myself a nerd. >> Gene: You pay attention, except for ... 1) Checking to see if a business calculator from HP has trig >functions. Since that model line (17B, 17BII, 17BII+) has NEVER had >trig functions, it is difficult to see how much attention you have >been paying. Oh, by the way... I was thinking that HO is manufacturing just piece informed === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds >Gene: You pay attention, except for ... >1) Checking to see if a business calculator from HP has trig >functions. Since that model line (17B, 17BII, 17BII+) has NEVER had >trig functions, it is difficult to see how much attention you have >been paying. Oh, by the way... I was thinking that HO is manufacturing just piece > informed Gene: That's HP, not HO. Paying attention again, I suppose? :-) And, you're welcome. However, perhaps you should not pose as someone who knows a great deal about HP calculators? === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds >> What is nerd?... These idiots from movie Revenge of the nerds?... >> I have a lot of calculators, pay enough attention, but I don't >> consider myself a nerd. >> Gene: You pay attention, except for ... You are responding to yourself?.... Mayge, finally, you are a nerd. P.S> Where is the slide rule for users of HP 17BII whatever? A,L. === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > we need to begin upgrade these programs to suit the hp50g, > and update what is on these programs. and clean them up. Welcome to comp.sys.hp48! Yes, there are many programs that were originally written for the 49G that were never enhanced to take advantage of the larger screen of the 49g+ and 50g. Additionally, there are many more programs that were originally written for the 48 series that were never ported to the 49 series (48gII/49G/49g+/50g). Some of these old 48-series programs are obsolete, as the 49 series already has a lot of functionality built-in that users had to add to the 48, but plenty of them are worthy of porting. Earlier this month I spent some time modifying a few 49G programs to take advantage of the large screen in the 50g. A couple of these were in assembly language and one was in System RPL, as I recall. But there has been no large-scale effort to upgrade software for the 50g, just like there has been no large-scale effort to port 48-series programs to the 49-series, which was released over 9 years ago. (I did port a number of programs from the 48 to the 49, which I posted to my site back in August 1999, but due to my limited experience with the 49 at the time, I did a poor, or at least less-than-perfect, job on many of them.) > i am in springfield college so our server is quite fast. So is my server, plus it is already established. If you want to create something of your own, it would be great (competition is always good!), but you'd have to ask yourself whether duplication of effort is worth it. > if there is anything i could do to make this more possible > i would love to contribute, the only problem is thast i > don't know how to program. This is something I have seen time and time again over the years. You've got idea people, who come up with a great idea for a project. But then they need to find other people to do the project. For example, I want to start a band. I just need a songwriter, a singer, a percussionist, and a couple guitar players! or I want to make a video game. I just need a programmer, a level designer, and a graphic artist! On the other hand, you've got the hobbyists who can actually do the work. But they, at the same time, have their own ideas. Perhaps they just like tinkering with something long enough to understand it, and then move on, with no real desire to keep at it long enough to make a finished product or something for the public -- they just want to get the satisfaction of learning and experimenting, and then move on to something new. Occasionally they might get a brilliant idea of something that they can do long term, but this would be their idea. The tough thing is getting one of these people to work on your idea rather than their own. Unless your idea happens to match their idea, it becomes a job for them, so they would likely want some form of compensation. I believe you have already received one offer for such a service, at a VERY reasonable price. Otherwise, if they are working for free, they will want to work on their own projects, not yours. So I recommend that you try to learn how to do it yourself. Fortunately, all the tools are out there to make it easy, and there are different levels of difficulty that let you start with something easy before you go onto something hard. The information isn't all out there, but that's what this newsgroup is for. Ask lots of questions. Over time, enough could be posted here to form a good HOWTO tutorial for porting software. Here's what I would do: First, get Emu48 1.45+, a 50g skin, and a ROM for the 50g. If you want to port from the 48, you'll also want a ROM from the 48G. You can download this all from my site, though some of it is unfortunately difficult to find or prepare (I'm working on this). You'll find this is a lot easier to do on the computer than the real calculator. Now find a program to convert. You'll want to start with something simple, so choose a User RPL program in the form of a single variable or a directory. Now learn User RPL programming -- there are numerous good documents to help you get started, some from HP and some from the user community. Now go through the program and make any changes you want to make. For programs already written for the 49 series, it's as simple as changing things to take advantage of the larger screen, and in a few rare cases adjusting for the slight changes in a few key labels. If you are porting from the 48, it's a little more difficult. You need to get the source code first, which consists of converting it to ASCII mode (either by transferring it from a real 48 calculator in ASCII Kermit mode, or using one of the tools on my site within an Emu48-emulated 48) if it isn't provided with the software. Then you need to load it into an Emu48-emulated 49 and use the same tool to convert from ASCII to binary. If it fails, it is likely because it is using a reserved name (one that is new in the 49) as a variable name, so you'll need to fix that before the conversion. If you want the program's displayed numbers as text to be true to that on the 48, you'll need to do it in Exact mode. If you want the program to provide numeric output the same as on the 48, you'll need to do the conversion in Approximate mode (usually the best choice). If you want the best of both, you'll have to do it in Exact mode but manually tweak the program to use Reals at some times but Integers at other times as necessary. Additionally, you will have to worry about key mappings, since the keyboard layout changed completely from the 48 to the 49, and change all scan codes in the source to be the new key. Finally, you have to be aware of the other difference between the 48 and the 49 -- the large (10 pixel) font was eliminated from the 49, and the proportional caps-only minifont has been replaced with a fixed-width minifont that supports lowercase letters. Therefore, for example, the (AN(L softkey menu should be replaced with CANCL or Cancl. The next thing to learn is converting libraries. Regardless of whether the program is from the 48 or 49, if it is in library format, you'll need to extract the library before you can do any of the above. There are tools to do this. Now, once you have mastered all the above, you can try the next step up in difficulty -- converting System RPL programs. These may or may not be in library format. Again, there is documentation for learning System RPL, the most-often-recommended of which is probably the one by Eduardo Kalinowski. System RPL is very similar to User RPL, except that it has a lot more commands, is much less forgiving of error (make a mistake and it may clear your calculator's memory), and has to be separately compiled. For System RPL programs, you need to use the built-in ->S2 command in library 256 to decompile the binary to source code. Then you can edit the code, recompile it with the ASM command, and test it. Finally, once you have mastered System RPL, the next step is to learn assembly language. The 50g supports development in both Saturn assembly and ARM assembly, but since virtually nothing has been written in ARM assembly, you only need to worry about the former for a conversion effort. Again, there is documentation to learn this. I recommend the one written by Gilbert Fernandes and edited by me. At pretty much any point in the above process you can decide you've learned enough, and just start converting programs that are no more complicated than you have learned so far. Then share them with us, and send them to me for posting on my site! In the last two weeks, only four new/updated programs have been submitted to me, all of which came through in the last day. I will be adding these soon. That's very disappointing. There used to be so much more new stuff, but now very little software is being maintained. It would be great if more people were interested in writing or updating software, as there is so much that can be done. I admire your enthusiasm and hope that you can put it to use helping us all! Feel free to ask about any of the above if you are interested in learning. If not, hopefully you have inspired somebody else! I apologize for not making a greater attempt to convert more programs myself, but I have so many different interests and so little time to do them all. Eric Rechlin === Subject: programming in general > In the last two weeks, only four new/updated programs have been submitted to > me, all of which came through in the last day. I will be adding these soon. > That's very disappointing. There used to be so much more new stuff, but now > very little software is being maintained. You know, that is something I've been thinking about for quite a while. It isn't just with calculator programs, but with any type of programming. In the past, it was difficult to find something that was what you wanted. So to get the functionality, you'd have to learn to program and write it. Then along came the internet and a while later you could find millions of programs. While they may not be perfectly matched with the idea in your head, chances are they are pretty darn close. Why bother learning to do it yourself when somebody has probably done almost the same thing before? I know the rise of computers has a lot to do with it as well, but I think the ease at which you can access a peice of software has done a lot to cause people younger and younger to loose interest in learning to program. Then when they are older, the thought is I want to make video games for a living! Thoughts? TW === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > let's really come together. i mean face it anyone who pays attention > to the claculator they purchase is proud to be a nerd. Calculators are not cheap at over $100. You'd be smart to research what you buy before brainlessly burning off money like that. > [there] is one problem. there are few programs that work for the the > hp50g. Have you looked at http://www.hpcalc.org/ at all? There might not be as many games for the HP's compared to the TI's, but almost all the non-entertainment programs you'd ever need are there. > that is pretty bad, i downloaded the chemistry lab 2.7 and the > periodic table was in spanish, helium wasn't in the table. the > compound names and such is okay but i had no poly atomic ions. > the statistics progam stat pack newest one was fairly descent again > missed some very important things not good. Downloaded from where? > my professor rated my work > less than a 70 but the things that i had she thought were beautiful. Sounds like an error on the part of the student and not the machine. > i have had this mini computer for some time now and i really like it > however until i can figure out how to change things in a program or > add things, delete things, i think this product doesn't work to > potential Read the manual yet? > and that is upsetting because the hp50g can whip the shit > out of a ti whatever Don't say that. > the only problem here is that hp doesn't market their stuff well > enough so no one knows this mini computers potential. two is half ass > programs thast is available for the hp50g since most people who want > the best expect the best don't recieve the best they talk bad about > it. There are a lot more than two programs for the HP 50g. You can also use almost all RPL code for the HP48 series, too. > we need to begin upgrade these programs to suit the hp50g, and update > what is on these programs. and clean them up. These programs are fine for me as is. > i am in springfield college so our server is quite fast. if there is > anything i could do to make this more possible i would love to > contribute, the only problem is thast i don't know how to program. Search on http://www.hpcalc.org/ and you'll probably find what you're looking for. If not, there's a chapter on User RPL programming in the user's guide. === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > their is one problem. there are few programs that work for the the > hp50g. that is pretty bad, I suspect you are going to get a slew of responses stating otherwise. > i downloaded the chemistry lab 2.7 and the > periodic table was in spanish, helium wasn't in the table. http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4851 <-- That one? Has helium and an awesome balancer . . . spanish??? > compound names and such is okay but i had no poly atomic ions. > the statistics progam stat pack newest one was fairly descent again > missed some very important things not good. http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4911 <-- that one? What is missing? > my professor rated my work > less than a 70 but the things that i had she thought were beautiful. Did you understand how to use the programs before you were being graded on work produced by using them? > i have had this mini computer for some time now and i really like it > however until i can figure out how to change things in a program or > add things, delete things, i think this product doesn't work to > potential and that is upsetting because the hp50g can whip the shit > out of a ti whatever Hopefully that doesn't start anything. . . :-) > the only problem here is that hp doesn't market their stuff well > enough so no one knows this mini computers potential. two is half ass > programs thast is available for the hp50g since most people who want > the best expect the best don't recieve the best they talk bad about > it. Huh? > we need to begin upgrade these programs to suit the hp50g, and update > what is on these programs. and clean them up. All of the programs you mentioned work fine. . . > i am in springfield college so our server is quite fast. if there is > anything i could do to make this more possible i would love to > contribute, the only problem is thast i don't know how to program. Well that could be a problem. Do you want to pay me some money, say 15$ an hour (very cheap) and I will be happy to work on whatever program you'd like. . . TW === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds i am in springfield college Therein is the problem. Transfer to an accredited school! === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds >i am in springfield college Therein is the problem. Transfer to an accredited school! What is wrong with Springfield College? I do not know where you come from, but it would be wise to do some research before you spout off. It is not an engineering school, true. It's emphasis is on athletics, sports medicine/science,teaching, and health related fields. It is also home to the inventors of both Basketball and Volleyball. Two of my cousins went there and both received Bachelors and Masters Degrees there. They are both long time coaches and teachers in the Public School systems in Maryland. === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > their is one problem. there are few programs that work for the the > hp50g. that is pretty bad, I suspect you are going to get a slew of responses stating > otherwise. Apparently he has yet to find hpcalc.org === Subject: Re: us as a community of nerds > http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4911<-- that one? What is missing? > Well that could be a problem. Do you want to pay me some money, say > 15$ an hour (very cheap) and I will be happy to work on whatever > program you'd like. . . I should say, if that is the stat program you are referring to, I would be curious as to what deficiencies you find. There is nothing stopping you from learning to program. I started with my brother's 48 when I was about 12. TW My attitude toward punctuation is that it ought to be as conventional as possible. The game of golf would lose a good deal if croquet mallets and iard cues were allowed on the putting green. You ought to be able to show that you can do it a good deal better than anyone else with the regular tools before you have a license to bring in your own improvements. ~Ernest Hemingway === Subject: Printout of Equation Library? Is there a document out there that has all the equations from the standard equation library along with the variable definitions? Sorry to be so old school. And yes, I did try googling for it. JJ === Subject: Re: Printout of Equation Library? there was a separate manual for the EQNLIB when it was first available as a plug-in card for the HP 48SX (I would have to look up the part number). All equations are covered in detail in HP 48GX AUR and you can find them in the hp 49g+/ hp 48gII graphing calculator advanced user's reference manual as well. http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: Printout of Equation Library? >All equations are covered in detail in HP 48GX AUR and you can find >them in the hp 49g+/ hp 48gII graphing calculator advanced user's >reference manual as well. >HTH, >Andreas >http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de manual. I'm rather embarassed now. :-) === Subject: Modulus and Non-Negative Finite Field Hello all, I noticed that when I set a modulus in the HP, say 8, it uses the field (-3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4). How do I get it to instead use the field (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7) for its calculations? For addition and subtract, I can just internally shift, but what about things like inverse mod? Titus === Subject: Re: Modulus and Non-Negative Finite Field To do what you want, try the programme: INV EXPANDMOD -- Message posted using http://www.talkaboutcomputing.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/ More information at http://www.talkaboutcomputing.com/faq.html === Subject: Re: Modulus and Non-Negative Finite Field > but what about things like inverse mod? Inverses modulo a composite modulus do not always exist. For example, modulo 8, the inverse of 3 is 3 because 3*3 (mod 8) is congruent to 1. However, 2 has no inverse modulo 8. If it did, then the inverse n would satisfy 2*n = 1 (mod 8). Then multiply both sides by 4 and get 0*n = 4 (mod 8) which is clearly impossible. In the ring Z/nZ for n not prime, there exist zero-divisors. This means that modulo n, if a*b = 0, that does not imply that either a or b is 0. Here, modulo 8, 2*4 = 0, but neither 2 nor 4 is congruent to 0. On the other hand, of n is prime, then there exist no zero divisors, implying that all elements of the ring have inverses. === Subject: Re: Modulus and Non-Negative Finite Field I noticed that when I set a modulus in the HP, say 8, it uses the field > (-3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4). How do I get it to instead use the field > (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7) for its calculations? For addition and subtract, I > can just internally shift, but what about things like inverse mod? You can do that for inverse mod, too. In the ring of congruence classes modulo n, a is congruent to a+kn for k any integer. Thus they can be used interchangably. (in other words, if the calculator gives you a negative result, just add the modulus to it to get an equivalent non-negative result) The HP chooses to use negative values in the congruence classes to minimize absolute values. In fact, when doing modular arithmetic by hand, it is often advantageous to use the ring containing negative residues to simplify the arithmetic. === Subject: Re: Modulus and Non-Negative Finite Field > Hello all, I noticed that when I set a modulus in the HP, say 8, it uses the field > (-3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4). How do I get it to instead use the field > (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7) for its calculations? For addition and subtract, I > can just internally shift, but what about things like inverse mod? > Titus Assuming x and m are on the stack, in that order, then use a short program like << DUP UNROT MOD DUP 0 < {+} {NIP} IFTE >> instead of the straight MOD command to assure a non-negative result. I also have a RCLMOD library program which returns the value of MODULO stored in the CASDIR directory: << PATH { HOME CASDIR MODULO } RCL SWAP EVAL which I use in conjunction with << DUP UNROT MOD DUP 0 < {+} {NIP} IFTE >> when using those modulo commands which access that MODULO value directly. === Subject: Re: Modulus and Non-Negative Finite Field > Assuming x and m are on the stack, in that order, then use a short > program like > << DUP UNROT MOD DUP 0 < {+} {NIP} IFTE > instead of the straight MOD command to assure a non-negative result. elements are modulo 26 (ring: 0 to 25)? For example, for X = (7 8; 17 3) the inverse would be (9 2; 1 15). I tried INVMOD and it returns SOME sort of a matrix back but then it gives me 'Bad Argument Value'. Titus === Subject: Re: Modulus and Non-Negative Finite Field To do what you want, try the programme: INV EXPANDMOD -- Message posted using http://www.talkaboutcomputing.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/ More information at http://www.talkaboutcomputing.com/faq.html === Subject: Re: Modulus and Non-Negative Finite Field > Assuming x and m are on the stack, in that order, then use a short > program like > << DUP UNROT MOD DUP 0 < {+} {NIP} IFTE > instead of the straight MOD command to assure a non-negative result. > elements are modulo 26 (ring: 0 to 25)? For example, for X = (7 8; 17 3) > the inverse would be (9 2; 1 15). I tried INVMOD and it returns SOME > sort of a matrix back but then it gives me 'Bad Argument Value'. Titus To start with, unless your original matrix has a determinant whose value is relatively prime to your modulus, it may well not have any modular inverse even if it has a regular one. The determinant of [[7 8][ 17 3]] is -115, or 15 mod 26, so that it will actually have the desired inverse, as 15 and 26 are relatively prime, having no common factor larger than 1. In order to guarantee in general that a modular matrix having non-zero determinant for that modulus will have an inverse relative to that modulus, the modulus must be a prime number, which your modulus, 26 is not. Also, [[7 8][ 17 3]] times [[9 2][1 15]] mod 26 is [[ 19 4][ 0 1]] , which is not an identity matrix, so [[7 8][ 17 3]] and [[9 2][1 15]] are not inverses, even mod 26. Also INVMOD does not accept matrices as input. On the other hand: The actual inverse, mod 26, of [[7 8][ 17 3]] does exist and is [[21 33 ][ 11 23]]. Their regular ( non-modular) product, in the order shown, is [[235 338][ 390 443]], which reduces, modulo 26, to [[1 0][ 0 1]] Their regular product in reverse order, while different, also reduces mod 26 to the identity matrix. === Subject: Re: Modulus and Non-Negative Finite Field | @ To recall the current MODULO value | << PATH { HOME CASDIR MODULO } RCL SWAP EVAL >> { HOME CASDIR MODULO } RCL is sufficient, since it doesn't change the current path. However, due to inheritance from the earliest HP49G, when the variables in CASDIR were initially in HOME, the calculator's internal functions will use any CAS variables found instead in HOME, if they are not also in CASDIR! (move them all to HOME and see) Purists who want to be absolutely compatible with the calculator may therefore want to adjust for that, since { HOME CASDIR MODULO } RCL errors if 'MODULO' exists in HOME, but doesn't exist in CASDIR! << PATH HOME CASDIR 'MODULO' RCL SWAP EVAL >> ??? The above accounts neither for the possible current non-existence of CASDIR, nor for the possible current non-existence of MODULO, even though CASDIR exists (as a directory?) -- this may serve as an indication of why programming of built-in ROM (or of any generalized system which hasn't control of everything in its environment) can require more than just casual attention, although for casual user programming purposes, it may be suitable to just let { HOME CASDIR MODULO } RCL error out if things aren't already exactly where most commonly found. === Subject: Re: Modulus and Non-Negative Finite Field | @ To recall the current MODULO value > | << PATH { HOME CASDIR MODULO } RCL SWAP EVAL { HOME CASDIR MODULO } RCL is sufficient, > since it doesn't change the current path. Right! However, due to inheritance from the earliest HP49G, > when the variables in CASDIR were initially in HOME, > the calculator's internal functions > will use any CAS variables found instead in HOME, > if they are not also in CASDIR! > (move them all to HOME and see) Purists who want to be absolutely compatible with the calculator > may therefore want to adjust for that, since > { HOME CASDIR MODULO } RCL errors if 'MODULO' exists in HOME, > but doesn't exist in CASDIR! << PATH HOME CASDIR 'MODULO' RCL SWAP EVAL >> ??? The above accounts neither for the possible current non-existence > of CASDIR, nor for the possible current non-existence of MODULO, > even though CASDIR exists (as a directory?) -- > this may serve as an indication of why programming of built-in ROM > (or of any generalized system > which hasn't control of everything in its environment) > can require more than just casual attention, > although for casual user programming purposes, > it may be suitable to just let { HOME CASDIR MODULO } RCL > error out if things aren't already exactly where most commonly found. I had forgot that little quirk. === Subject: GCC on the HP50g I installed the ARM toolbox on the HP 50g emulator correctly but I'm having difficulties running the ARM compiled code (actually nothing happens when I push the PrRUN button). What am I doing wrong? Does the calculator lock up and you have to pop a battery to get out of it? Or does nothing happen? What is the code you are compiling? code you are compiling? TW did you installed it on the emulator ro on the calculator? === Subject: Re: GCC on the HP50g I dragged the 'hiworld.hp' (compiled with the HPGCC-2.0-native-win32- SP2) onto the HP50g KML Script on Emu48 1.43+. I then hit the PrRUN button. Nothing happened... To TW: Nothing will actually happen? Daniel. > I installed the ARM toolbox on the HP 50g emulator correctly but I'm > having difficulties running the ARM compiled code (actually nothing > happens when I push the PrRUN button). What am I doing wrong? > Does the calculator lock up and you have to pop a battery to get out > of it? Or does nothing happen? What is the code you are compiling? > TW did you installed it on the emulator ro on the calculator? > jm === Subject: Re: GCC on the HP50g > To TW: Nothing will actually happen? Nothing will happen as EMU48 does not emulate the ARM chip. Either try it on a real machine or use HPAPINE. Andreas === Subject: Re: GCC on the HP50g > did you installed it on the emulator ro on the calculator? Yup. I missed that one little word and what a difference it makes. Thats what you get for posting way past bedtime. . . :-) To OP: the emulator doesn't emulator the ARM processor. No HPGCC code will run. You'll need to use a real calculator or HPAPINE for testing. TW === Subject: hp17 bII+ dead Dead right out of the box. I purchased one for family kid who studies business and this calculator is required for a course. Out of the box - dead. Checked batteries - in place. Checked with battery tester - zero, zero. Totally dead. If you purchase even the most stupid piece of electronics that cost 5 bucks, from Radio Shack, Walgreens pharmacy, airport kiosk, grocery store and elsewhere then there are two options: a) Batteries are not installed, but are in teh box and you install yourself b) There is a small strip of plastic that insulates the batteries from the electronics, therefore they don't drain. There is instruction on the strip: remove this strip before use. The notable exception is HP. They install batteries and hope that they will last forever. They don't. Shit. === Subject: Re: hp17 bII+ dead > Out of the box - dead. Checked batteries - in place. Checked with > battery tester - zero, zero. Totally dead. Only the non-graphing models come with batteries installed, and I agree that it is less than ideal. On the other hand, the CR2032 battery in the clamshell packaging of the graphing models is incredibly difficult to remove from the packaging. Was this the old 17bII+? If so, the calculator could have been sitting on the shelf for many years. Check the serial number to see the age. I ran into a 17bII+ myself that was >3 years old and had no charge left in the batteries that were included with it. Fortunately, new batteries are very cheap (well under $1 each). Please let us know if it works after you put new batteries in it. If not, do realize that the whole reason the 17bII+ was redesigned last year was because the quality of the original one was abismal. The new one, on the other hand, is one of the highest quality calculators on the market, period. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: hp17 bII+ dead >> Out of the box - dead. Checked batteries - in place. Checked with >> battery tester - zero, zero. Totally dead. Only the non-graphing models come with batteries installed, and I agree that >it is less than ideal. On the other hand, the CR2032 battery in the >clamshell packaging of the graphing models is incredibly difficult to remove >from the packaging. Was this the old 17bII+? If so, the calculator could have been sitting on >the shelf for many years. Check the serial number to see the age. I ran >into a 17bII+ myself that was >3 years old and had no charge left in the >batteries that were included with it. > This is CNA 64300364. I don't know how to guess the age from this number. Purchased it in Office Max store that was opened just about 3 month ago. Obviously, they got the calculator right from the warehouse >Fortunately, new batteries are very cheap (well under $1 each). Please let >us know if it works after you put new batteries in it. If not, do realize >that the whole reason the 17bII+ was redesigned last year was because the >quality of the original one was abismal. The new one, on the other hand, is >one of the highest quality calculators on the market, period. This is not the issue of how much these batteries cost. This is the issue of inconvenience. This was birthday gift. A bit of disappointment when you open birthday gift and it doesn't function. I don't question the quality of the calculator, I do question the practices. After replacing batteries I don't see any problems. Calculator works as it should. No problems so far === Subject: Re: hp17 bII+ dead > This is CNA 64300364. I don't know how to guess the age from this > number. Purchased it in Office Max store that was opened just about 3 > month ago. Obviously, they got the calculator right from the warehouse > CNA64300364 = 00364th unit made in the 43rd week of 2006. This puts it in late October, 2006. Thus the calculator was sitting in its packaging for about 2 years before you bought it. That's no excuse for a dead battery, though. What a disappointment. === Subject: Re: hp17 bII+ dead >> This is CNA 64300364. I don't know how to guess the age from this >> number. Purchased it in Office Max store that was opened just about 3 >> month ago. Obviously, they got the calculator right from the warehouse > CNA64300364 = 00364th unit made in the 43rd week of 2006. This puts it >in late October, 2006. Thus the calculator was sitting in its >packaging for about 2 years before you bought it. > === Subject: Re: hp17 bII+ dead > Only the non-graphing models come with batteries installed Remember the HP48? It came with batteries installed, but in coma mode (not even the clock running); Dave Arnett explains how much engineering thought was behind this seemingly minor detail, including full awareness of product shelf time, and adjustment of shipping mode accordingly. Most of my other HP calcs have been in drawers or storage for years, with batteries installed, and they turn right on, ready to go to work, with all memory intact, the moment the ON button is pressed. However, modern products, in general, must be a different story. My PPC is sure to be dead after only a week idle in my drawer. My last new car wouldn't even start until I pulled a tab on the battery -- neat idea, at least for products that sit around so long without being sold, as well as guzzle power :) === Subject: Re: hp17 bII+ dead > Only the non-graphing models come with batteries installed Remember the HP48? It came with batteries installed, > but in coma mode (not even the clock running); > Dave Arnett explains how much engineering thought > was behind this seemingly minor detail, > including full awareness of product shelf time, > and adjustment of shipping mode accordingly. Just curious, but does the 50g retain coma mode? Emu48 (emulating the 50g) does not respond to ON+SPC, and I don't feel like trying it on my real 50g and resetting. === Subject: Re: hp17 bII+ dead > does the 50g retain coma mode? [like HP48 S/G] I don't think that even non-ARM 49G [without +] had it. Ask JYA where it went (might have been due to problems starting up). === Subject: What is the advanced mode on the HP50G??? mentions in the documentation of an advanced mode when speaking of the PROOT function as follows..... ___________________________________ b) Example with numerical polynom [1. -12.6 72.15 -247.84 567.4575 -909.30918 1040.591233 -850.431318 486.424066 -185.44642 42.41233 -4.408211 ] PRoot -> Warning and no roots. Use advanced mode and try again. {[1. -12.6 72.15 -247.84 567.4575 -909.30918 1040.591233 -850.431318 486.424066 -185.44642 42.41233 -4.408211 ] 1000. 1000. 1000. } PRoot {[1.000000 -1.099996] [1.000000 -2.299988 1.319987] [1.000000 -2.300004 1.320004] [1.000000 -2.299998 1.319998] [1.000000 -2.300008 1.320010] [1.000000 -2.300005 1.320006] } [6 5 ] ..multi picity structure [1.100000 1.200000] ..Roots The exact polynom is (x-1.1)^6 * (z-1.2)^5 _____________________________________________ What exactly is this advanced mode that is spoke of here?? Wht mode changes does one do to make the PROOT example work?? I tried using and not using the numeric mode in the CAS mode choices, but that has no effect. === Subject: hp50g change low battery threshold voltage I'd like to lower hp50g internal low battery threshold (the one that displays Lowbat(S) after powering ON) to appear when battery voltage drops below 4.5V (currently I get it below 5V) While running hp50g on 500mAh NiMH batteries I get low battery warning too early. Few hours after charging it shows lowbat(S) while the batteries can hold 4.8-4.9V steady even at CPU load and could run more than a week of my usual usage. Checking with btmon program and comparing with connecting a voltmeter directly to the battery compartment while hp50g is on, both readings are consistent. (maybe btmon shows 0.05V less than voltmeter) I got low battery when btmon shows 4.97V (while the btmon needle is in battery good area, not yet stepped into warn area). I'd like to lower hp50g internal low battery threshold to around 4.5V. Is there some application or at least Saturn or ARM9 location to poke the modified voltage threshold value? === Subject: Re: hp50g change low battery threshold voltage ) > While running hp50g on 500mAh NiMH batteries I get low > battery warning too early. Few hours after charging it shows > lowbat(S) while the batteries can hold 4.8-4.9V steady even at > CPU load and could run more than a week > of my usual usage. Battery monitors will not run well with Ni-MH cells. The reason is that unlike alkalines, Ni-MH batteries do not lose voltage at a constant rate. They tend to hold their 1.2V until just before they run out of gas. That's when the voltage suddenly drops without warning. New alkalines will deliver 1.6V fresh and under no load, but once the machine is on, alkalines will never output 1.5V. I use 900mAh Ni-MH batteries and my low-bat warning comes very late. Usually by the time the status indicator turns on, the calculator already cannot stay on for long periods of time (i.e. several minutes). However, turning it off and letting it rest for a short time before restarting it will usually clear the annunciator, though it always comes back momentarily, especially under the load of a CPU- intensive calculation such as numerical integration. === Subject: Re: hp50g change low battery threshold voltage > While running hp50g on 500mAh NiMH batteries I get low > battery warning too early. Few hours after charging it shows > lowbat(S) while the batteries can hold 4.8-4.9V steady even at > CPU load and could run more than a week > of my usual usage. > Battery monitors will not run well with Ni-MH cells. The reason is > that unlike alkalines, Ni-MH batteries do not lose voltage at a > constant rate. They tend to hold their 1.2V until just before they run > out of gas. That's when the voltage suddenly drops without warning. I'm aware of that is normal NiMH behavior. However it has some curve slope as it discharges but quite small so with some tuning of the voltage, we can set the indicator to appear more early or more late regarding the battery remaining capacity > I use 900mAh Ni-MH batteries and my low-bat warning comes very late. > Usually by the time the status indicator turns on, the calculator > already cannot stay on for long periods of time (i.e. several I'd rather prefer mine to behave like yours, to receive low battery at the end of battery capacity. I think my hp50g voltage monitor is somehow set up too high and triggers low battery too early. I hope there is some ARM register that we can change to adjust it so it could fit each battery. With some tweaking we should be able to detect 1 hour warning before NiMH battery runs out. === Subject: hp50g single CLICK from the beeper How to obtain single CLICK (former hp48 toggle of the OUT bit 11 would click the piezoelectric beeper). I need this to support correct sound from phoenix (and maybe hapaman). On hp50g there is command BEEP2 from saturn+ emulation but at its minimum it still does too much - 4 clicks (done in 2 up and down pulses). e.g. execute this MASD code while put hp50g at your ear and you'll hear 4 clicks CODE SAVE LC(5) 1 D=C.A % 1 Hz beep frequency LC(5) 1 % 1 ms duration BEEP2 LOADRPL ENDCODE Execution of BEEP2 command should last only 1 millisecond and produce a 1 single click but it will last 2 seconds and produce 4 clicks because it doesn't want to make less than 2 full pulses therefore it even exceeds millisecond duration of the execution set by register C. (some may even find that's a bug) Something like BEEP1 would be more suitable but it doesn't exist on saturn+ emulation. Can someone present an ARM code to for a single CLICK? === Subject: Re: hp50g single CLICK from the beeper How to obtain single CLICK (former hp48 toggle of the OUT bit 11 would > click the piezoelectric beeper). I need this to support correct sound from > phoenix (and maybe hapaman). On hp50g there is command BEEP2 from saturn+ emulation but at its > minimum it still does too much - 4 clicks (done in 2 up and down > pulses). > e.g. execute this MASD code while put hp50g at your ear and you'll > hear > 4 clicks CODE > SAVE > LC(5) 1 D=C.A % 1 Hz beep frequency > LC(5) 1 % 1 ms duration > BEEP2 > LOADRPL > ENDCODE Execution of BEEP2 command should last only 1 millisecond and produce > a > 1 single click but it will last 2 seconds and produce 4 clicks because > it doesn't > want to make less than 2 full pulses therefore it even exceeds > millisecond duration > of the execution set by register C. (some may even find that's a bug) Something like BEEP1 would be more suitable but it doesn't exist on > saturn+ > emulation. Can someone present an ARM code to for a single CLICK? > Interestingly enough, it has the exact same effect as the USERRPL 1 1 BEEP, except that the USERRPL version obeys the BEEP flag. The interesting thing is that for the USERRPL version, duration is in seconds. What this shows is the emulation works by using a sample of a sine wave, with a minimum of 2 cycles. The way the duration is used is to calculate the number of times that output needs to be repeated, rounded up. So the minimum possible duartion at 1 HZ is 2 sine waves so 2 seconds, including two maxes and two mins, accounting for the four clicks. You get the same result if you request 1 ms or 1 second. Oddly enough, requesting two seconds with the userrpl command results in 6 clicks over 3 seconds. Must be a rounding issue. So you definitely will not get anywhere with the emulated beep commands. Unfortunately, I have never touched the ARM programming, so I have no idea how to directly control it, perhaps somebody else does though. === Subject: Re: hp50g single CLICK from the beeper > What this shows is the emulation works by using a sample of a sine > wave, with a minimum of 2 cycles. The way the duration is used is to > calculate the number of times that output needs to be repeated, > rounded up. So the minimum possible duartion at 1 HZ is 2 sine waves > so 2 seconds, including two maxes and two mins, accounting for the > four clicks. Yes that was the idea to emulate true frequency so minimum 2 full waves are required. However using a piezoelectric speaker, the designers haven't been aware of the fact that even 1 full wave pulse can have 'frequency' or better say range of frequencies (speaker enclosure, air and human ear will do complex fourier transform and make a carefully timed 'click' have 'tone'). So it's pity that BEEP2 (that user rpl command calls after checking beep flag) can't send short pulses. Also very annoying is exceeding the requested duration of a single CPU command to 2 seconds! It would be nice if hp50g would release new firmware with this bugs patched and also with decimal mode fixed (if non-bcd number in decimal mode is incremented, it will mess the register) Anyone attempted to patch the hp50g firmware? === Subject: Re: hp50g single CLICK from the beeper The thing you're describing is not really a bug, it's 'by design' behavior Here's why: ARM has 3 timers so designers chose to couple one of those to the beeper (the same way it's done on your desktop PC) That way while timer is doing sound CPU runs uninterrupted (cpu doesn't triger te beeper up-down the way it used to) Just to be clear: The 'new way' to make sound is much better and has much more to offer, only drawback: it's not compatible with the 'old way' by default. Pathcing the firmware is not realy an option for a couple of other resons. The CPU in 49G+/50G (like most ARM based CPUs) is remarkable in that way it has several modes for most of it's pins and can be reprogrammed by software for one of the available functions. So the beeper can be reprogramed as well. Generally you can take 2 major directions in this matter: 1. reprogram ARM timer to PWM(poulse width modulation) mode in that case you would calculate how long you want your poulse to be, rather than timing it yourself or 2. reprogram ARM pin to standard output pin rather than timer in that case you would triger the speaker just like it was done on real saturn (bit 11 of OUT reg.) Since the 'klicking' sound is a part of delay routine which handles game speed i belive it's easiest to keep it the way it is (most probably the solution no.2 is the one to take) versions of emulators) which emulates bit 11 of OUT register (compatibile with OUT C) instuction of the Saturn. Instead of calling ROM's OUTC routine (since OUTC must execute from even address) you call my 'substitute' routine and speaker will work more-less the way it used to :-) more-less means: These dayse there is a lot more going on in the box, and your calculator is not dedicated to trigering speaker with such devotion as it used to be :-) The execution timing is not the same as it would be on 49G and many other resons... BUT you would get sound and with proper adjustment -you could make it sound just right :-) The routine i speak of does just the thing you need, -all YOU need to do is load/store the routine to 32-bit aligned address and call it with GOSBVL where you'd normally call GOSBVL =OUTC manjo >> What this shows is the emulation works by using a sample of a sine >> wave, with a minimum of 2 cycles. The way the duration is used is to >> calculate the number of times that output needs to be repeated, >> rounded up. So the minimum possible duartion at 1 HZ is 2 sine waves >> so 2 seconds, including two maxes and two mins, accounting for the >> four clicks. Yes that was the idea to emulate true frequency so minimum 2 full > waves > are required. However using a piezoelectric speaker, the designers > haven't been aware of the fact that even 1 full wave pulse can have > 'frequency' or better say range of frequencies (speaker enclosure, air > and human ear will do complex fourier transform and make a carefully > timed 'click' have 'tone'). So it's pity that BEEP2 (that user rpl > command > calls after checking beep flag) can't send short pulses. Also very annoying is exceeding the requested duration of a single > CPU command to 2 seconds! It would be nice if hp50g would release new firmware with this bugs > patched and also with decimal mode fixed (if non-bcd number in > decimal mode is incremented, it will mess the register) Anyone attempted to patch the hp50g firmware? === Subject: Re: hp50g single CLICK from the beeper > Generally you can take 2 major directions in this matter: > 1. reprogram ARM timer to PWM(poulse width modulation) mode > in that case you would calculate how long you want your poulse to be, rather > than timing it yourself or This direction would be fine to me - to send a single timed pulse while the CPU is doing other things. > 2. reprogram ARM pin to standard output pin rather than timer > in that case you would triger the speaker just like it was done on real > saturn (bit 11 of OUT reg.) That option is also nice, it would use old code and probably sound identical to the old code > Since the 'klicking' sound is a part of delay routine which handles game > speed i belive it's easiest to keep Actually it doesn't (or shouldn't) handle game speed if it is executed fast enough because game is normally synchronized by the RTC timer. Of course, when BEEP2 holds CPU for its multi-second waiting, this completely ruins game speed > versions of emulators) > which emulates bit 11 of OUT register (compatibile with OUT C) instuction of > the Saturn. > Instead of calling ROM's OUTC routine (since OUTC must execute from even > address) > you call my 'substitute' routine and speaker will work more-less the way it > used to :-) I Can't find your OUTC substitute routine by searching on this group - can you attach a code snippet or point with the hyperlink? === Subject: Page-Flipping mode on newest ARM HP49+/50G looking at programming a greyscale interface with a code compatible with the HP Graphic range from HP48S to HP50G, i decided to go for a simple page-flipping methodology which seems to be valid for all mentionned calcs. Well, at least, it seems to work properly when using Emu48. But well, this coud just be a side-effect of this emulator ? Could any HP50G/49+/48GII user tell if greyscale page-flipping does work on its real hardware ? In case of doubt, here are some binaries for testings. http://img41.xooimage.com/files/d/9/c/greyscale-hp48-49-test1-6b3726.zip Note that this simple sample only handles 56 lines, so large-screen (80 lines) will have some garbage on the lower part. This can be corrected, but it's no use to spend much time on it if the principles at stake are not running properly on the first 56 lines. Yann === Subject: Re: Page-Flipping mode on newest ARM HP49+/50G > Could any HP50G/49+/48GII user tell if greyscale page-flipping does > work on its real hardware ? In case of doubt, here are some binaries for testings. > http://img41.xooimage.com/files/d/9/c/greyscale-hp48-49-test1-6b3726.zip Note that this simple sample only handles 56 lines, so large-screen > (80 lines) will have some garbage on the lower part. > This can be corrected, but it's no use to spend much time on it if the > principles at stake are not running properly on the first 56 lines. Page-flipping method is the way to go if you insist on supporting old calculators but as such it won't work properly on 49G+ and 50G. There are ways to make it work on 49G+ and 50G using OpenFire, but it requires adjustment to your code and some care from your part. 1. recommendation: be sure not to use/draw directly to PICT (pict will be used by OpenFire) 2. if you keep correct timing for each frame you just need to modify a call to your page-flipping routine with open fire call to one of the functions. There are several, both virtual and real page-flipping, routines available. Virtual routine is interesting in that it converts your frames in to grayscale so frame-timing is not needed to be kept. Note: OpenFire also handles the additional space (so no junk is displayed, but nice headder on top instead) it also handles all aspects of Saturn's display controller (scrolling, grayscale menu, even the 'scrolling bug') Consideration: However, since 49G+ and 50G have valuable additional screen space and can be switched to 'native grayscale' which makes your program a lot simpler and preserves a lot of CPU cycles. Maybe you should consider writing separate version for 49G+/50G. Since you can use normal sysRPL and asm routines to handle grayscales driven by OpenFire you may realize it's easier than ever before :-) Animations as well are supported by OpenFire so you can make nice animated movie-like sequences. I don't see the challenge in writing grayscale handler/routine (technical) anymore, now it's in graphics, menus, control (creativity/artistic). And last but not least: 49G+ and 50G have SD cards, which means: your game and it's resources can be almost unlimited size. Just load chapters (or levels) from SD as you go along. for more information and samples: http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire manjo === Subject: Re: Page-Flipping mode on newest ARM HP49+/50G It seems then, that i would need 2 different code path, one for Saturn-based system (including 49G then) and one for ARM-based using OpenFire. I've tried to test OpenFire, but it does not seem to output anything on EMU48, which i believe is normal if OpenFire uses functions outside of ASM scope. This makes testing a bit more difficult then, given that i only have Saturn-based calculator. Yann === Subject: Re: Page-Flipping mode on newest ARM HP49+/50G It seems then, that i would need 2 different code path, > one for Saturn-based system (including 49G then) > and one for ARM-based using OpenFire. True, it would be interesting if you decided to go for both versions just to see how much easier it is on 49G+/50G with openfire :-) > I've tried to test OpenFire, but it does not seem to output anything > on EMU48, > which i believe is normal if OpenFire uses functions outside of ASM > scope. > This makes testing a bit more difficult then, given that i only have > Saturn-based calculator. Yes, OpenFire will not work on EMU (as well as no other ARM based software HPGCC or ARM assembly) you ned to test/develop your software on true 49G+/50G Major confusion, i think, comes from 49G+ (50G) emulator which has only Saturn and higher level capability (keyboard layout, Saturn+ instructions?, larger screen) (but no low level compatibility -no ARM and no SD card emulation) === Subject: Re: Using HP 50g with OSX I have a HP 50g and an Intel mac which runs OS 10.5. I use a nice little program which is called HP Connect. It is freely available from the following web site: hpconnect.sourceforge.net > I'm wondering if someone can tell me what the reccommended way of > communicating between a 50g and OSX is? I found HPConnect but it hung when I used it (well I think I was at > fault as I stuffed up the settings on the 50g, but it did require a > reboot of my laptop to recover and I'm not keen on that sort of thing) Is it possible to use a vanilla Kermit or Xmodem xfer program? If > so, does anyone have any reccommendations? And once I've got that functioning can anyone reccommend any OSX-side > tools that are useful (I've already found Emu48) and have some tips on > how they can be put together in a tool-chain? > === Subject: Some humour taken from other groups I'm not the sutor of either of these, but they may amuse. Lance ------ if 2+2=5, then bertrand russel is the pope! ------ ---- Inconsistant logical systems are not useful in getting at the truth. The following is a cute proof by Bertrand Russel: If 2+2=5... that means 4=5... so, lets subtract 2 from each side... that gives us... 2=3.... transposing, we have 3=2... now, lets subtract 1 from each side... 2=1... Now, since the Pope and Russel are two different people, and 2=1... Therefore, the Pope and Russel are one. -------- This conversation (or something very similar) took place in my college trig course: Prof: How to you trisect an angle Me: I don't remember Prof: You forgot? Me: Yes: Prof: This is terrible. The only person in the world who knows how to trisect an angle, and he forgot. === Subject: Re: Some humour taken from other groups > I'm not the sutor of either of these, but they may amuse. Lance ------ > if 2+2=5, then bertrand russel is the pope! 2 + 2 = 5, for large values of 2 |-) > ------- --- > Inconsistant logical systems are not useful in getting at the truth. > The following is a cute proof by Bertrand Russel: If 2+2=5... > that means 4=5... > so, lets subtract 2 from each side... > that gives us... > 2=3.... > transposing, we have 3=2... > now, lets subtract 1 from each side... > 2=1... > Now, since the Pope and Russel are two different people, and 2=1... > Therefore, the Pope and Russel are one. -------- This conversation (or something very similar) took place in my college > trig > course: Prof: How to you trisect an angle Me: I don't remember Prof: You forgot? Me: Yes: Prof: This is terrible. The only person in the world who knows how to > trisect an angle, and he forgot. == > Inconsistant logical systems are not useful in getting at the truth. > The following is a cute proof by Bertrand Russel: If 2+2=5... > that means 4=5... > so, lets subtract 2 from each side... > that gives us... > 2=3.... > transposing, we have 3=2... > now, lets subtract 1 from each side... > 2=1... > Now, since the Pope and Russel are two different people, and 2=1... > Therefore, the Pope and Russel are one. > The way I heard it: Bertrand Russell was lecturing on logic and happened to mention the logical truism that from a false statement any statement follows. In the question period following the lecture, Russell was challenged to show that from 2 = 1 it followed that Russell was the Pope. Russell immediately responded: The Pope and I are two. If 2 = 1 then the Pope and I are one. Therefore I am the Pope. One can Google up a whole slew of variations on this theme. === Subject: conflict between UNDO and LOCAL According to the 49g+ AUR, the LOCAL command is intended mainly for use in Algebraic mode, but I think I may have come up with a good RPL use for it. Unfortunately it seems to interfere with the UNDO command. Perhaps someone can suggest a fix or an alternative. For example, enter: 1 2 + UNDO (should now give you back the 1 and 2) now run a program that has a LOCAL command, such as << { '<-TMP=1.' } LOCAL DROP >> '<-TMP' RCL (just to confirm that it's there, should give a 1.) 3 4 5 + UNDO (should give back the 4 and 5, but instead returns stack back to 1 2) In fact, no matter what the stack is, the UNDO returns it back to 1 2. If I go to the MODE screen and turn LastStack off and then back on (or go to menu 69.01 and toggle STK off and on), it fixes the UNDO problem, but destroys the variable. Notice, LastStack is not the same as LastArg (sysflag 55) It seems to me that this might be closely related to these two earlier posts: === Subject: Bug? Using KEYEVAL to toggle last stack corrupts local variables? (2006) === Subject: HP49g: UNDO Bug (2000) I'm trying to make a variable persistent across runs without using global variables. I want to run a program such that the first time it runs, the variable has a particular value, but each successive time it's run, the value is different. For example, the first time the following program runs, '<-tmp' will be set to 1., but each successive time, '<-tmp' is 2. << @ try to set '<-TMP' to 2. IFERR 2. '<-TMP' STO THEN @ if save_last_arg IF -55. FC? THEN DROP2 END @ create local compiled variable @ and initialize it to 1. { '<-TMP=1.' } LOCAL DROP END <-TMP >> Is there another way to do this without a global variable? Is there a way to use LOCAL without affecting UNDO? -wes === Subject: Re: conflict between UNDO and LOCAL > I'm trying to make a variable persistent across runs > without using global variables. Old way, on all HP48/49/50: << 1 -> TMP << HALT > 'TMP' remains a local variable until next CONT, KILL, or warmstart. No need for prefix character <- (but okay to use, if you want). No problem with UNDO. === Subject: Re: conflict between UNDO and LOCAL Aids for creating persistent local variables with pre-assigned explicit values (or all zero): LOCLV stores supplied value(s) into local variable(s). LOCLZ stores zero(s) into local variable(s). CONT abandons the most recent set. KILL abandons all. NDUPN (and other HP49/50 series commands) for HP48 series: @ value 'name' @ or @ values { names } << { } + ->STR 2 OVER SIZE 1 - SUB -> SWAP + <> 'LOCLV' STO @ 'name' or { names } << { } + 0. OVER SIZE NDUPN 1 + ROLL LOCLV >> 'LOCLZ' STO @ End === Subject: binomial distribution I need a recommendation for a basic program that includes binomial distribution and Poisson probability distribution for my HP 50g. also I may need some help getting it downloading to calculator, but deal with that later === Subject: Re: binomial distribution >I need a recommendation for a basic program that includes binomial >distribution and Poisson probability distribution for my HP 50g. also I may need some help getting it downloading to calculator, but >deal with that later > http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/math/statistic/ === Subject: Re: binomial distribution > I need a recommendation for a basic program that includes binomial > distribution and Poisson probability distribution for my HP 50g. also I may need some help getting it downloading to calculator, but > deal with that later > Are you familiar with the web site hpcalc.org ? All sorts of goodies there,including several statistical programs/libraries for the hp49/50 series. === Subject: HP9100B Program Library on ebay are not enough users for a hp9100 group! :) ), but I was hoping that more people might notice my auction for the HP9100B program library calculator which I have on ebay currently. I am a bit worried that the few hp9100 owners who might be interested may never know about it and to be honest, I'm having regrets not putting a reserve on it.. I was planning to put my hp9100b calculator on soon - has anyone seen one of those sell recently? (Im interested in the value) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330275436874 Does anyone have an opinion on the value of the program library ? I don't think there are a huge amount of them around, but that doesn't mean it is worth anything I suppose. BuZz === Subject: Re: HP9100B Program Library on ebay Importance: Normal > are not enough users for a hp9100 group! :) ), but I was hoping that > more people might notice my auction for the HP9100B program library > calculator which I have on ebay currently. I am a bit worried that the > few hp9100 owners who might be interested may never know about it > and to be honest, I'm having regrets not putting a reserve on it.. I > was planning to put my hp9100b calculator on soon - has anyone seen > one of those sell recently? (Im interested in the value) I've seen them go for about $1800 in working condition. It varies widely (phase of the moon?) The way the economy is right now, though, people may not want to spend too much. Tom Lake === Subject: Re: HP9100B Program Library on ebay > I've seen them go for about $1800 in working condition. > It varies widely (phase of the moon?) > The way the economy is right now, though, people may not > want to spend too much. Tom Lake $1800 would be nice :-) but I agree with the point about the economy - one reason I am selling is I could do with the money and also the space where it currently lives will be needed for a new member of our family in march. Better that it goes to someone else who might actually use it (or at least treasure it) than to my loft etc. === Subject: Repeat operation on HP50g Let's say I have the following on the stack: #FF13h I can use RL to rotate this 1 bit to the left. But what if I want to rotate it 5 bits of 7 bits? Is there a small RPL program or better way to repeat the operation n times? Titus === Subject: Re: Repeat operation on HP50g Let's say I have the following on the stack: #FF13h I can use RL to rotate this 1 bit to the left. But what if I want to > rotate it 5 bits of 7 bits? Is there a small RPL program or better way > to repeat the operation n times? You can use the FOR loop in a program: << 1 n FOR I RL NEXT >> will perform the RL function n times. === Subject: Re: Repeat operation on HP50g > You can use the FOR loop in a program: << 1 n FOR I RL NEXT will perform the RL function n times. Here 'I' is the counting variable, 1 is the start value, n is the end value (replace n with the integer of your choice when using the loop), and the counting step is assumed to be 1. Chapter 21 of the User's Guide (the large PDF file, not the tiny printed booklet that comes with the calculator) has more information about UserRPL programming. === Subject: Kermit server I'm looking for a simple Kermit server running on win XP. Is there anything free on the net ? TIA val === Subject: Re: Kermit server > I'm looking for a simple Kermit server running on win XP. Is there > anything free on the net ? > TIA > val Found this : http://www.grack.com/programming/hp48/HP-Kermit.html from Matthew Mastracci works on XP val === Subject: Mac OSX A few have told about HP Connect and I have yet to follow-up largely because I do not have a suitable USB cable. The cable I do have is that old-style round connector - sort of like that old printer/modem cable of many years ago. So where can a USB 2 - HP48GX. === Subject: Re: Mac OSX I use one of these: http://www.keyspan.com/products/usa19hs/ Mark. > A few have told about HP Connect and I have yet to follow-up largely > because I do not have a suitable USB cable. The cable I do have is > that old-style round connector - sort of like that old printer/modem > cable of many years ago. So where can a USB 2 - HP48GX. === Subject: Off topic iphone calculator Is this this future of handheld calculators? spacetime.us/iphone/ === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator >Is this this future of handheld calculators? No === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator > Is this this future of handheld calculators? spacetime.us/iphone/ Looks very nice, but has not enough statistical options to be useful for me. Can it be programable to do so ? Daniel. === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator Importance: Normal >> Is this this future of handheld calculators? >> spacetime.us/iphone/ Looks very nice, but has not enough statistical options to be useful > for me. Can it be programable to do so ? SpaceTime is programmable so if you know the relevant equations and methods then, yes, you can program it to do whatever you want. Tom Lake === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Is this this future of handheld calculators? spacetime.us/iphone/ Yes. It got all what the current calculator maker missed to create in the last 10 years or so: 1) A compatible Desktop Application to develop your programs on. 2) Excellent colour graphic. 3) A touch screen to make to combat the button chaos Now some might not agree with point 3 but I like to invite you to read http://uiq3.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Office/FX-602P/QVGA#active_keyboa rd Born out of need the active display has proven to be a damm side easier and better to use the classic keyboard. Especially when using the alpha mode. === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator > Is this this future of handheld calculators? spacetime.us/iphone/ Sadly...! The programming language doesn't seem to have the full spectrum capability of the 10 year old, 128k HP48sx...??? === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator > Is this this future of handheld calculators? spacetime.us/iphone/ Very nice! I wouldn't give it high marks for durability as a calculator though. I'm a bit of a key pounder so the face of the iphone might get a bit deformed after a while. I suppose the color display might tempt some of us to make the switch. The graphics are pretty impressive to me because I'm more of a visual learner. It just occured to me that I don't send text messages from my hp so why calculate on my iphone? === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator Wow, looks very nice. There are emulators for HP calcs on the iPhone but these look marvellous. Not sure I'd want to program using the touch screen keyboard, but the visual impact is high! >> Is this this future of handheld calculators? >> spacetime.us/iphone/ Very nice! I wouldn't give it high marks for durability as a > calculator though. > I'm a bit of a key pounder so the face of the iphone might get a bit > deformed after a while. I suppose the color display might tempt some > of us to make the switch. The graphics are pretty impressive to me > because I'm more of a visual learner. It just occured to me that I > don't send text messages from my hp so why calculate on my > iphone? === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator > Wow, looks very nice. There are emulators for HP calcs on the iPhone > but these look marvellous. Not sure I'd want to program using the touch > screen keyboard, but the visual impact is high! >> Is this this future of handheld calculators? >> spacetime.us/iphone/ > Very nice! I wouldn't give it high marks for durability as a > calculator though. > I'm a bit of a key pounder so the face of the iphone might get a bit > deformed after a while. I suppose the color display might tempt some > of us to make the switch. The graphics are pretty impressive to me > because I'm more of a visual learner. It just occured to me that I > don't send text messages from my hp so why calculate on my > iphone? This is what i've been waiting for, for at least 5 years...! i wonder if it might be possible to write the 'BASIC' programs on your big box and download them to the iphone... Or hopefully, this will work on the ipod...! hmmmmmmm...??? === Subject: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume Does anyone know why there haven't been any posts here reporting on events from HHC 2008 last weekend? I was sadly unable to attend so I was hoping for some insight on the event. Is the required NDA preventing posts? The overall volume of posts in this group appears much lower than normal also. Have the discussions been taken to a different forum? Does the low volume have anything to do with most US ISP's dumping newsgroup service? I have been away on travel so I apologize if this was discussed and I JM === Subject: Re: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume Yes, I've noticed the reduction in activity as well. HHC 2008 was terrific as always. One thing I noticed was a much more positive attitude compared to the almost doom and gloom that was evident not many years ago. As others there noted, I believe that finally in so many ways, HP gets it - they understand their own heritage, opportunities and user resources. The HP-20b which we each received is already being put to serious use by this electrical engineer - all the more remarkable since earlier financial machines (I enjoy my 12 Platinum) were pretty much financial *only*. Having a fairly comprehensive set of scientific functions and engineering notation makes it downright handy. And I'm boggled at the possibilities that updating its flash-based firmware will allow This old HP-25/-67/-41C era relic really enjoyed the presentations more than any since the '80s - and that's a high standard indeed. If you can attend an HHC, do so - you'll not regret it! Jim Horn (older than Joe) === Subject: Re: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume Eric & Mark, for. It is a shame I missed the event again this year, especially the trip to James Donnelly's house. I will try to get to next year's HHC. Silly work keeps getting in the way of my hobbies :) I will be looking forward to the video DVD (I am assuming that there will be one like in years past). I keep meaning to buy the videos for the last few years of HHC and some of the other great items Jake Schwartz has to offer. Did they do calendars again like last year? Almost every time someone new walks into my office I get some kind of a comment on the calendar. I definitely understand folks being busy. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing the discussions. I am away from my home ISP (COMCAST) on business so yes, I have started to use aioe which appears to be working fine even if their retention isn't all that long. Google Groups works, but I prefer to view newsgroups via Thunderbird; I find it easier to follow threads. John === Subject: Re: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume for. It is a shame I missed the event again this year, especially the > trip to James Donnelly's house. I will try to get to next year's HHC. > Silly work keeps getting in the way of my hobbies :) I will be looking > forward to the video DVD (I am assuming that there will be one like in > years past). I keep meaning to buy the videos for the last few years of > HHC and some of the other great items Jake Schwartz has to offer. > The conference was videotaped in its entirety and will be edited into DVDs soon, if I can swing about 24 free hours :-) I have to second Eric Rechlin's comments - the conference was really great, as always, and we saw some new people for the first time and also some old-timers who hadn't been seen in at least a decade. For 2009, we are considering the HP facility at Vancouver, Washington (which is just 100 miles north of Corvallis), since that is the actual stomping ground of Sam Kim, our official HP host. As long as HP is willing to offer its facilities free of charge (which saves us at least $1500. in conference expenses), it is felt that we should take them up on it. Also, since HP has been providing some of the meals (which is a win- win because (1) we don't have to leave the facilities and (2) because we save bucks), it is hard to pass up. The experiences have been nothing but positive over the past few years. > Did they do calendars again like last year? Almost every time someone > new walks into my office I get some kind of a comment on the calendar. We ran out of time to do a decent calendar before the conference, but Richard Nelson and I are seriously considering doing a calender now for the 12 months of 2009 and offering it as soon as it is ready. When/if the thing gets done, we will announce it here. I definitely understand folks being busy. I just wanted to make sure > I wasn't missing the discussions. I am away from my home ISP (COMCAST) > on business so yes, I have started to use aioe which appears to be > working fine even if their retention isn't all that long. Google Groups > works, but I prefer to view newsgroups via Thunderbird; I find it easier > to follow threads. > John Jake Schwartz === Subject: Re: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume > Does anyone know why there haven't been any posts here reporting on events > from HHC 2008 last weekend? I was sadly unable to attend so I was hoping > for some insight on the event. Is the required NDA preventing posts? HHC 2008 was a great success. The official attendee count was over 50, which was quite good considering the out-of-the-way location (90 miles from a major airport) and not much lower than last year, which had the best attendance in many years. The NDA only prevents discussion of not-otherwise-published information given to us by the representatives from HP (Cyrille de Brebisson, Sam Kim, GT Springer), which was only a small part of the conference. We had several former HP Corvallis employees at the conference with great stories to share. Sharon Butterfield told us of the initial release of the HP-35, which was apparently HP's first venture into direct sales. They weren't prepared to handle the cash that came in from customers sending in four $100 s to order one, so her filing cabinet was full of over a million dollars in cash before they finally figured out what to do with it. James Donnelly (member of the HP 48 team and author of several HP 48 programs and books, including his famous An Introduction to HP 48 System RPL and Assembly Language Programming) gave a talk, and on Sunday night after the conference he took a large group of us to his home, where he showed us his machine shop, where he has made numerous small engines and lots of other very cool stuff, plus he demonstrated his 18th century mechanical calculator from France. Megha Shyam, who worked for HP on the Equation Library among other things (he was responsible for the pictures including the mass-spring animation), and later Sparcom and Da Vinci, shared memories as well. HP was a wonderful host, providing us with lunches, snacks, and a fancy dinner on Saturday, not to mention the facility. Everyone received an HHC 2008-engraved 1GB USB drive, as well as HP 20b and HP QuickCalc calculators, courtesy of HP. There were plenty of door prizes, too, with enough for everyone to get 3 items, including a couple HP StreamSmart 400s, which I believe are not otherwise available. There attendees of all ages, from various countries (mainly US and Canada, but several from each of the UK and Germany), with interests in all sorts of machines. Presentations filled the whole day on Saturday and Sunday, but even those who didn't give presentations tended to have cool stuff on display. Especially interesting were all the painstakingly restored calculators (including several HP-01 watches) brought by Geoff Quickfall. The Best Speaker award went to Pavneet Arora, of Canada, with discussion of specialty construction calculators and the much-more-powerful use of the only slightly-more-expensive HP 50g for construction. > The overall volume of posts in this group appears much lower than normal > also. Have the discussions been taken to a different forum? Does the low > volume have anything to do with most US ISP's dumping newsgroup service? It saddens me to see it, but it's true. I suspect your guess for the reduction in traffic, that most US ISPs are dumping newsgroup service, is true. There is no other serious discussion forum; there is the HP Museum forum for older models, but it has a lot of problems (not the least of which is the fact that when you bookmark a post, the link breaks after a short while), and there's a Spanish-language web forum, but this is by far the best place for discussion of the graphing models. Traffic here is down about 70% in the last few years alone. At its peak we saw around 50 posts a day; now I think it's around 10. But I think it also reflects a declining interest in calculators. While my web site (hpcalc.org) saw tremendous growth in traffic over its first 7 years, the last four years have seen no growth in traffic. And the number of programs submitted has plummetted from several per day in the early 2000s to about one a week today. It's not just HP -- the main TI calculator web site (ticalc.org) appears to have seen its growth stop as well, though they still get lots of program submissions. But considering they have hundreds of quadratic equation solvers listed in their archives, I would say they are mainly by people just wanting to see their name on something. I have set up an hpcalc.org news server, and has a full feed of all posts to this forum (216,000 in total!), but I will not open it to the public until I figure out how to properly secure it. It's presently fed by Aioe, apparently the same free provider as you are using. I've been trying to post more in the newsgroup lately to bring the traffic up, but it's going to take the work of many of us to make the newsgroup feel welcoming to new users and to drown out the trolls. Hopefully you (and anyone else reading this) will be able to make it to the conference next year. They are always lots of fun. I don't know if any decisions have been made on the place or time yet, but there's a good chance it will be in late September in Vancouver, WA (or maybe Boise, ID). Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume Nice summary Eric... The event was very enjoyable (my first time) -- however I was only able to attend on Saturday because I had other things going on (did I win any door prizes--my number was 10?) at home. I enjoyed having dinner with Megha Shyam, Pavneet Arora and Andreas Moeller; and having lunch with Charles Patton, Pavneet and Sam. The presentations were good and I very much enjoyed my off-line chats with people. It was neat to see James Donnelly and to put a person/face to a name I have been familiar with for so long. As far as reduced interest in calculators and math, I think Charles, Shyam and others all touched on it in their talks in one way or another -- the constant theme I got out of it is the sad state of Math education and the fact that too many people are all to distracted with things like iPods, cell phones, games and the like to ever really learn anything a see the real value of pushing a pursuit to a higher level of discipline -- like learning how to program the stupid gizmos (which only a few do), or better yet, learning the fundamental principles of how things work, why we need things to work and to apply knowledge in service of a greater good. I would love to chat with GT and others. We could go on -- but again, I enjoyed meeting the people. Greg Savage === Subject: Re: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume John, The conference was quite intense as always, and was very interesting and a lot of fun. The NDA does restrict some details, but I think that the reason it has been quiet this week is that after the conference ended, most people had to return to their day jobs. Speaking only for myself, I had a pile of work waiting for me at the office (I didn't get back till late Tuesday), so there hasn't been time to gather thoughts and write about the event in detail. What I would say briefly is that HP is definitely committed to calculators for the forseeable future (how long one thinks forseeable might be is debateable thses days :-) and they continue to take great pains to move forward and to keep working on new things. Speaking only for myself, I thought the conference was very worthwhile and I am glad I made the trip from the UK to attend. The fact that HP took the trouble to host the event this year (as they did last year) makes it a really enjoyable time. Although they have probably heard some of the themes many times from the experienced (old!) and dedicated calculator community, they continue to listen. And this is not always easy given the current economic climate that affects us all, and the fact that calculators have a different place in the market from the one they held 30 or 20 years ago. I am sure there will be follow up reports as soon as the dust has settled - both from HHC members and from one or two HPCC members (like myself) in Datafile. One other place to get good information is Dave Hick's site - the HP Museum of calculators, in case you are not aware. There is a forum there too, but you probably do know about this. I haven't seen anything there yet, though. Finally, John, please make sure you are available for next years HHC 2009! (Added personal bonuses for me this year were seeing a whale from Depoe Point on the coast and seeing the OSU vs USC footbal game in Corvallis on the Thursday before the conference.) Mark > Does anyone know why there haven't been any posts here reporting on > events from HHC 2008 last weekend? I was sadly unable to attend so I was > hoping for some insight on the event. Is the required NDA preventing posts? The overall volume of posts in this group appears much lower than normal > also. Have the discussions been taken to a different forum? Does the low > volume have anything to do with most US ISP's dumping newsgroup service? I have been away on travel so I apologize if this was discussed and I JM === Subject: Re: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume Mark - have tried emailing you but both addresses that I have are bouncing. Please would you let me know the email address to use. === Subject: Re: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume Bruce, Have replied to you with my up to date e-mail address. === Subject: 14 years awaiting! I am awaiting for 14 years an HP calculator with color LCD. Nowadays color LCDs are found in everywhare. Even a 12 years old boy can have a cell phone with color LCD. HP seems to have the technology to make digital webcams with color LCDs. But I ask myself and to anyone here, why it was not already done? Carlos - HP48 user sinde 1994 www.area48.com === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! ) > I am awaiting for 14 years an HP calculator with color LCD. Nowadays color LCDs are found in everywhare. Even a 12 years old boy > can have a cell phone with color LCD. HP seems to have the technology > to make digital webcams with color LCDs. But I ask myself and to anyone here, > why it was not already done? Carlos - HP48 user sinde 1994www.area48.com i think that HP has just lost interest in making calculators. At the time when the HP28 came out, the lap top computer with Mathematica was taking over that niche, For the previous 15 years or so, the HP41 was essentially the only programmable, affordable - Computer- that was available for the everyman. The iPhone and it's coming spawn of handheld devil machines is going to be the ultimate solution to this... But the new SpaceTime doesn't even vaguely approach the functionality of the HP28 for full spectrum programming. ( which is incomprehensible! ) As soon as someone comes out with a really easy to use, do everything programming language for the new cell phones, this argument/problem will be over... But i don't think that that's going to happen any time soon. i think that there is -something else- to this. i find it very suspicious that 20 years ago, every computer that you bought had a built in, easy to use programming language, and now, you can't buy an affordable programming language, and they're getting impossible to use. Programming languages are getting harder and harder to use, not easier. i always thought that the HP48's programming language was the easiest, most intuitive language to use, short of plain english. But the computer & software manufacturers just don't want everyone to have an easy to use programming language, which means that this next ( long overdue ) easy to use, fully functional, full color hand held calculator will NEVER EVER become available. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > i find it very suspicious that 20 years ago, every computer that you > bought had a built in, easy to use programming language, and now, you > can't buy an affordable programming language, and they're getting > impossible to use. My thinking as well. However: it is only true if you buy the M$-Windows systems. Both Linux and Mac OS X come with several programming languages out of the box. Mac OS X even comes with a nice GUI called XCode and Objective-C or Objective-C++ are not that hard to learn Martin - -- Martin Krischik krischik@me.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFI6mzxijwKaHyem9cRAq1QAKDvVBXOvZ26hSvtrAfOk+IuhKfwpgCfeoAQ eUdYbqbPGuRuwZdlmshJjVQ= =kdoW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > i find it very suspicious that 20 years ago, every computer that you > bought had a built in, easy to use programming language, and now, you > can't buy an affordable programming language, and they're getting > impossible to use. My thinking as well. However: it is only true if you buy the MS-Windows > systems. Both Linux and Mac OS X come with several programming languages > out of the box. No, it isn't even true for Windows. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 and 2008 Express Editions (with C++, C#, and VB.NET versions) are completely free (not Free, but free), and have pretty much anything that most individual developers would want. You only need the full version if you need add-ins or a few other features that power users might want. Microsoft even gives away a free version of SQL Server Express, which is sufficiently powerful for most personal databases. They also have PowerShell, which is their competitor to the Linux/Unix command shells (yes, I know that those who don't understand Unix are doomed to recreate it -- poorly). Plus, you can run GCC and the JDK and Eclipse and other good development software on Windows without paying anything. Pretty much any language supported by Linux has free versions for Windows as well. So a wide assortment of programming languages are free for virtually every platform out there. It's just not necessarily well promoted or installed by default in a majority of systems. Even many Linux distributions don't necessary install much along the lines of development software by default. The biggest thing here that has changed in the last 25 years is that now the vast majority of computer users (and likely, to stay on topic, calculator users as well) just want to use the computer, not program it, so the marketing is different. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > i find it very suspicious that 20 years ago, every computer that you > bought had a built in, easy to use programming language, and now, you > can't buy an affordable programming language, and they're getting > impossible to use. >> My thinking as well. However: it is only true if you buy the MS-Windows >> systems. Both Linux and Mac OS X come with several programming languages >> out of the box. No, it isn't even true for Windows. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 and 2008 Express Editions (with C++, C#, and > VB.NET versions) are completely free (not Free, but free), and have pretty > much anything that most individual developers would want. The part in quotes was out of the box - or as the OP said built in. Visual Studio is not pre-installed (Linux) or part of the supplemental application DVD (Mac OS X). > It's just not necessarily well promoted or installed by > default in a majority of systems. Even many Linux distributions don't > necessary install much along the lines of development software by default. But this is precisely the point TranslucentAmoebae and I am making. And yes: with every new iteration of Linux less and less development tools where pre-installed. Current Linux system won't even pre-install an C compiler any more. > The biggest thing here that has changed in the last 25 years is that now the > vast majority of computer users (and likely, to stay on topic, calculator > users as well) just want to use the computer, not program it, so the > marketing is different. Indeed. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 and 2008 Express Editions (with C++, C#, and > VB.NET versions) are completely free (not Free, but free), and have pretty > much anything that most individual developers would want. Yeah, Microsoft decided they needed to compete with Linux some years ago. One result was the concession that free development tools means more developers on your platform - duh. > . You only need the > full version if you need add-ins or a few other features that power users > might want. Microsoft even gives away a free version of SQL Server Express, > which is sufficiently powerful for most personal databases. . God no! This is *not* a feature, but a terrible smear on performance and system stability. Though who can tell if you are running Vista? :). > The biggest thing here that has changed in the last 25 years is that now the > vast majority of computer users (and likely, to stay on topic, calculator > users as well) just want to use the computer, not program it, so the > marketing is different. Bingo. People are getting what they asked for. > Eric Rechlin Howard === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! >But the computer & software manufacturers just don't want everyone to >have an easy to use programming language, which means that this next >( long overdue ) easy to use, fully functional, full color hand held >calculator will NEVER EVER become available. Could you please explain why you need calculator with color screen? Casop made once and flopped. Nobody needs calculator with color screen Regarding languahe, TI and Casio programmable calculators are programmed in Basic. Sharp PC-1211 calculator was programmable in Basic 30 years ago. According to my opinion, the majority of iPhone users have a slight brain damage. Your opinion about calculators, color screens, easy language is confirmation of this theory === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! >But the computer & software manufacturers just don't want everyone to >have an easy to use programming language, which means that this next >( long overdue ) easy to use, fully functional, full color hand held >calculator will NEVER EVER become available. Could you please explain why you need calculator with color screen? > Casop made once and flopped. Nobody needs calculator with color screen Information is good. Color is information. Programming & Easy Programming allow Users to solve their own unique & original problems. Software manufacturers and Computer makers would much rather provide users with preassembled pseudo-solutions for their agenda driven micromanaged faux culture. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > According to my opinion, the majority of iPhone users have a slight > brain damage. Oh, so you've met and personally know more than half of the world's iPhone users? At least your claim of their degree of brain damage is only slight. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! >> According to my opinion, the majority of iPhone users have a slight >> brain damage. Oh, so you've met and personally know more than half of the world's >iPhone users? At least your claim of their degree of brain damage is >only slight. No. I met statistically significant sample. I don't need to meet all of them. Statistics (the science) says that this is OK === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! >> According to my opinion, the majority of iPhone users have a slight >> brain damage. >Oh, so you've met and personally know more than half of the world's >iPhone users? At least your claim of their degree of brain damage is >only slight. > No. I met statistically significant sample. I don't need to meet all > of them. Statistics (the science) says that this is OK Since your original hypothesis is not quantitative but qualitative, I guess this doesn't even matter. :) === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > I am awaiting for 14 years an HP calculator with color LCD. Nowadays color LCDs are found in everywhare. Even a 12 years old boy > can have a cell phone with color LCD. HP seems to have the technology > to make digital webcams with color LCDs. But I ask myself and to anyone here, > why it was not already done? Have you ever seen a coloured LCD device powered by AAA batteries lasting for over a month of a single set of batteries. -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> I am awaiting for 14 years an HP calculator with color LCD. >> Nowadays color LCDs are found in everywhare. Even a 12 years old boy >> can have a cell phone with color LCD. HP seems to have the technology >> to make digital webcams with color LCDs. >> But I ask myself and to anyone here, >> why it was not already done? Have you ever seen a coloured LCD device powered by AAA batteries > lasting for over a month of a single set of batteries. No, but AAA is outdated as well. Today one used Li-whatever rechargeables. Mind you, some of the oldest HPs used rechargeables as well. Martin - -- Martin Krischik krischik@me.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFI6muxijwKaHyem9cRAklmAKDs2jyHUZtK4jXFcApgVUswWpqDaACePG5A +JpUA08Dla1H5mIrX9Hs3WE= =3aCn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > Have you ever seen a coloured LCD device powered by AAA batteries > lasting for over a month of a single set of batteries. No, but AAA is outdated as well. Today one used Li-whatever > rechargeables. Mind you, some of the oldest HPs used rechargeables as well. Even your Li-ion rechargable cells cannot sustain a device with a color display for a month of battery life. Standard cells like the AAA/AA/C/D/9V are the way to go for handhelds. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > AAA is outdated as well. Today one uses Li-whatever rechargeables. The use of Li-whatever rechargeables is exactly why my otherwise highly capable PPCs are now turning into expensive paperweights -- solely because their one-of a kind size/shape cell is no longer manufactured, old warehouse battery stock being unloaded today doesn't hold much of a charge, and the expensive PPCs become useless without replacing the Lithium ion cells every so often. However, my ancient but still perfectly working Sharp wizards (with full keyboards and wide display screens) and HP graphing calculators are still completely useful, because they are powered by ever-available standard AAAs -- rechargeable versions of which are also available everywhere. Beware of devices which will become extinct whenever their batteries do. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > >> AAA is outdated as well. Today one uses Li-whatever rechargeables. The use of Li-whatever rechargeables is exactly why > my otherwise highly capable PPCs are now turning into expensive paperweights -- > solely because their one-of a kind size/shape cell is no longer manufactured, > old warehouse battery stock being unloaded today > doesn't hold much of a charge, and the expensive PPCs become useless > without replacing the Lithium ion cells every so often. However, my ancient but still perfectly working Sharp wizards > (with full keyboards and wide display screens) and HP graphing calculators > are still completely useful, because they are powered > by ever-available standard AAAs -- rechargeable versions of which > are also available everywhere. Beware of devices which will become extinct whenever their batteries do. Very true indeed. But not the fault of Li-whatever - it's the fault of greedy and selfish manufactures. 30 years or so they where able to agree on a Li-Button-Batteries standard but today they can't do so for Li-whatever rechargeables. And we - the customer - suffer from it. BTW: didn't some HP calculators use an AA-rechargeables pack so standard AA could be used in case of need? Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! t Very true indeed. But not the fault of Li-whatever - it's the fault of > greedy and selfish manufactures. 30 years or so they where able to agree on a Li-Button-Batteries > standard but today they can't do so for Li-whatever rechargeables. And > we - the customer - suffer from it. > That's because Li-ion cells operate at about 3.7 V, a significant difference from Ni-MH (and Ni-Cd) which have a nominal voltage of 1.2 V. Putting a Li-ion cell into a AAA form factor could potentially fry some devices by supplying too much voltage. Rechargable Li-ions are usually molded to whatever shape the product is in to maximize its capacity. They do this to squeeze the battery in to ever-thinner electronic devices. A universal standard would be nice, but then different companies would argue over what exactly that standard should be. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! There are more problems with Li-Ion batteries: - they are VERY delicate. As far as I know, every single LiIon pack (not the device it's being charged in - that delicate!) has its own built-in charge controller just so they don't blow up due to overcharge. This makes them very expensive. - They are also very prone to mechanical failure, and if they have an internal shortcut they become a bomb (http://de.youtube.com/watch? v=tC0UWIYswKI). This is what happened to Dell, Sony et.al. a few months ago. They would therefore need a lot more casing than standard batteries, which made them quite bulky. - LiIon batteries are made for phone&laptop use - that is, their energy is supposed to be drained over a relatively short period of time. They will lose charge over time even when not in use. For that matter, most rechargeables will, as well as alkaline non- rechargeables. try putting a rechargeable in a wall clock and see how long it lasts (my bet is 4-6 weeks, less if you use NiMH cells). Using them in a calculator with it's modest power consumption would be a waste. There are different kinds of batteries for different applications, and not without reason. so long, Matthias > On Oct 7, 2:41am, Martin Krischik Very true indeed. But not the fault of Li-whatever - it's the fault of > greedy and selfish manufactures. > É > Rechargable Li-ions are usually molded to whatever shape the product > is in to maximize its capacity. They do this to squeeze the battery in > to ever-thinner electronic devices. A universal standard would be nice, but then different companies would > argue over what exactly that standard should be. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! Hi On 2008-10-08 21:27:43 +1100, Matthias Rampke > There are more problems with Li-Ion batteries: - they are VERY delicate. As far as I know, every single LiIon pack > (not the device it's being charged in - that delicate!) has its own > built-in charge controller just so they don't blow up due to > overcharge. This makes them very expensive. They also need to be in a fireproof enclosure... === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > Putting a Li-ion cell into a AAA form factor... No one suggested using the identical form factor of an AAA cell for Li-ion, only that the fact of a product being designed to use some standard might be important to the useful lifetime of the product. > Rechargable Li-ions are usually molded to whatever shape the product > is in to maximize its capacity. They do this to squeeze the battery > into ever-thinner electronic devices. Watch batteries (and even thin calculator batteries) likewise needed to be squeezed into ever thinner watches and flat calculators, but this managed to get done in a way that produced standardized sizes (some for 1.5v, others for 3v), which are still available (except at Wal-Mart, which doesn't recognize the existence of size 389 :) > A universal standard would be nice, but then different companies > would argue over what exactly that standard should be. Has always been true of everything, yet has been overcome most of the time; even some of HP's special battery packs (including those which were part of the case) used standard cells which could usually be replaced. http://www.batterycrossref.com says that there even exist standardized rechargeable lithium ion coin cells, with sizes (LIR1620, LIR2016, LIR2025, LIR2032, ..., LIR3048) suggesting that these may be the same form factor as 3v non-rechargeable lithium cells; some other, more easily packed larger call sizes and shapes (e.g. rectangular) could easily be conceived, with whatever additional contacts (or electronic elements) might be useful. Need a few thousand LIR2450? http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/204542313/3_7V_rechargeable_button_cell_LI R2450.html Supply Ability: 500,000 Pieces per Week === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! >I am awaiting for 14 years an HP calculator with color LCD. Nowadays color LCDs are found in everywhare. Even a 12 years old boy >can have a cell phone with color LCD. HP seems to have the technology >to make digital webcams with color LCDs. How they can make color if they cannot do b&w display right? All HP displays are extremely ugly, with HP 33 on the top of the list. HP 33 display made this calculator not useable. HP 35 has similarly ugly display, although is not that bad as HP 33. HP 50 display is ugly, too. The only acceptable display is HP 12 and HP 17bII+. Maybe HP could send somebody for training to Casio or Texas. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > The only acceptable display is HP 12 and HP 17bII+. If you say HP 12 - would that not include the HP 11, HP 15 and HP 16 as well? Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! >I am awaiting for 14 years an HP calculator with color LCD. Personally, I don't miss color in a calculator display, and I appreciate the trade-off for longer battery life. > How they can make color if they cannot do b&w display right? All HP > displays are extremely ugly, with HP 33 on the top of the list. HP 33 > display made this calculator not useable. HP 35 has similarly ugly > display, although is not that bad as HP 33. HP 50 display is ugly, > too. I don't mind the HP50g display. Personal taste. But.. > Maybe HP could send somebody for training to Casio or Texas. TI nSpire. Say what you want about the weird keyboard, and lack of professional features, that display is *awesome*! . Howard === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > How they can make color if they cannot do b&w display right? All HP > displays are extremely ugly, with HP 33 on the top of the list. HP 33 > display made this calculator not useable. HP 35 has similarly ugly > display, although is not that bad as HP 33. HP 50 display is ugly, > too. The only acceptable display is HP 12 and HP 17bII+. Maybe HP could send somebody for training to Casio or Texas. TI-84 display is good (high contrast, large characters), but TI-89 display is terrible. Basically it's gray on green with tiny pixels because of the high resolution on a physically tiny screen. TI-89 Titanium key labels are light blue and light green on gray, which is pretty low contrast, too. HP 33s has a terrible decimal point, as does the 35s. The 35s also suffers from the theta symbol looking too much like an 8. The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple scientific calculators. Dot-matrix LCDs in graphing models just cannot compare with respect to clarity, contrast, and viewing angle. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple > scientific calculators. HP41? Martin - -- Martin Krischik krischik@me.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFI6mr8ijwKaHyem9cRAgsuAJ49+9QIpxXNpO3FZQNhQmWSSAZIlACeLRu6 WuQ1DwMOrLRgiCqRMCruwuE= =VfqD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple > scientific calculators. HP41? The '41 had a 14-segment display. And of course it wasn't a simple scientific calculator. 8-) Dieter === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple > scientific calculators. >> HP41? The '41 had a 14-segment display. > And of course it wasn't a simple scientific calculator. 8-) Precisely. So you can have a good display on an advanced calculator. But then: No graphic display. Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple > scientific calculators. > HP41? The '41 had a 14-segment display. > And of course it wasn't a simple scientific calculator. 8-) You know what I meant. ;) I meant the segmented displays (however many there are per character) as opposed to the dot-matrix LCDs. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! >> The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple >> scientific calculators. >> HP41? >> The '41 had a 14-segment display. >> And of course it wasn't a simple scientific calculator. 8-) >> Dieter You know what I meant. ;) >I meant the segmented displays (however many there are per character) >as opposed to the dot-matrix LCDs. > Dot matrix in HP 17bII+ is perfect === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! ) > Dot matrix in HP 17bII+ is perfect Okay, that's good. (I don't have a 17bII+) === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! >HP 33s has a terrible decimal point, as does the 35s. The 35s also >suffers from the theta symbol looking too much like an 8. The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple >scientific calculators. Dot-matrix LCDs in graphing models just cannot >compare with respect to clarity, contrast, and viewing angle. OK, check Casio 115 FX, and TI multi view editions of their TI-30 simple, non graphic, non programmable calculators. Check also TI V200 and compare with HP 50. Check also Casio fx-9860G. If you want to see how good display can look like Check also 30 years old Sharp EL-5100 and Sharp PC-1211 I don' think that there is any excuse for HP === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > OK, check Casio 115 FX, and TI multi view editions of their TI-30 > simple, non graphic, non programmable calculators. I have seen both versions of the Casio FX-115 (MS and ES). The top row of the display is not as good as the bottom row because the top is a dot-matrix and the bottom is segmented. I have not seen a multi view TI-30, but the older TI-30 Xa's have good displays (though they suffer from the logarithm bug and suggest that 1.000000001^1000000000 ~ 2.719193 > e). > Check also TI V200 > and compare with HP 50. Check also Casio fx-9860G. If you want to see > how good display can look like TI Voyage 200 suffers from the same tiny print as the TI-89 series. HP 50g has physically larger pixels and higher contrast, though the background has as slight orange tint. I have not seen the Casio, but I have seen a Casio Powergraphic with a color display (I know, this is not a fair comparison) and it had terrible viewing angle. The 3-color display was cool, but I don't think it's necessary on a handheld. Check also 30 years old Sharp EL-5100 and Sharp PC-1211 Clearly I don't have access to these. I don' think that there is any excuse for HP > I didn't say that HP had any excuses. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! Thinking about it, the HP calculators LCD's are an amazig thing, even when is not color CLD's/TFT/CRT, etc or the lower contrast are really bad. When i saw the first HP calc i remember, a HP32SII, i liked the nice display structure or form in a lower contrast. My HP49G+ have a nice display too, but a better contrast. If i stay in a low luminosity conditions, i use my palm HP calc emu. Humberto Estrada === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! >There is an old saying: beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You're >just not the right beholder looking at HP Calculators :) === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! Just buy the iPhone calculator application Everyone else is outdated: Apple rules! >I am awaiting for 14 years an HP calculator with color LCD. Nowadays color LCDs are found in everywhare. Even a 12 years old boy > can have a cell phone with color LCD. HP seems to have the technology > to make digital webcams with color LCDs. But I ask myself and to anyone here, > why it was not already done? Carlos - HP48 user sinde 1994 > www.area48.com === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! >I am awaiting for 14 years an HP calculator with color LCD. Nowadays color LCDs are found in everywhare. Even a 12 years old boy >can have a cell phone with color LCD. HP seems to have the technology >to make digital webcams with color LCDs. But I ask myself and to anyone here, >why it was not already done? Because is not needed === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! Importance: Normal > I am awaiting for 14 years an HP calculator with color LCD. Nowadays color LCDs are found in everywhare. Even a 12 years old boy > can have a cell phone with color LCD. HP seems to have the technology > to make digital webcams with color LCDs. But I ask myself and to anyone here, > why it was not already done? It's not really done because there are alternatives to calculators. Spacetime is one program for PDAs that's been mentioned here. If you have a PDA, that program will blow away any calculator and do it in full color. Bonus: you can run the same program on an iPhone, Windows Mobile, Palm handheld and a Windows desktop pc as well. Remember, most people aren't calculator enthusiasts. They just want to get their job done. Tom Lake === Subject: Letting a function process a list/several inputs Hello! I'm using functions of the type << -> X 'some expression' >> to calculate things. Now, sometimes I might have several input values that I'd like to put into my function, somewhat like in MATLAB, where I can write a function, give it a vector and get a vector back with my function applied to every component of the vector. Is there a simple way to mimic that kind of behaviour on my HP 50g? Henrik === Subject: Re: Letting a function process a list/several inputs > I'm using functions of the type > << -> X 'some expression' > to calculate things. Now, sometimes I might have several input values > that I'd like to put into my function, somewhat like in MATLAB, where I > can write a function, give it a vector and get a vector back with my > function applied to every component of the vector. > Is there a simple way to mimic that kind of behaviour on my HP 50g? Henrik Here is a suggestion. There is a library available on hpcalc.org called CMTx49 that you can try. It can process data in a matrix with a program and put the result in the next column of the matrix. It sounds that may do what you need. Good luck. I use it for successive processing of vertical vectors. Scott === Subject: Re: Letting a function process a list/several inputs > Hello! > I'm using functions of the type > << -> X 'some expression' > to calculate things. Now, sometimes I might have several input values > that I'd like to put into my function, somewhat like in MATLAB, where I > can write a function, give it a vector and get a vector back with my > function applied to every component of the vector. > Is there a simple way to mimic that kind of behaviour on my HP 50g? Henrik If none of your normal inputs are lists, you could test the type of your input and if it is a list then branch to a list processing subprogram. << -> x << IF X DUP TYPE 5 == THEN list-process ELSE usual process END << << === Subject: Re: Letting a function process a list/several inputs > Hello! > I'm using functions of the type > << -> X 'some expression' > to calculate things. Now, sometimes I might have several input values > that I'd like to put into my function, somewhat like in MATLAB, where I > can write a function, give it a vector and get a vector back with my > function applied to every component of the vector. > Is there a simple way to mimic that kind of behaviour on my HP 50g? If you insist that format without RPL syntax I suggest you use { list } instead of a [vector] as input and you should directly get the answers (at least in Approx mode) For vector you can use MAP [ 1 A '1+A'] << -> X 'some expression' >> MAP [ 'some expression(1)' 'some expression(A)' 'some expression(1+A)'] === Subject: Re: Letting a function process a list/several inputs > If you insist that format without RPL syntax > I suggest you use { list } instead of a [vector] as input > and you should directly get the answers (at least in Approx mode) Now I just have to get used to using ADD instead of +. Henrik === Subject: Re: Letting a function process a list/several inputs >> If you insist that format without RPL syntax >> I suggest you use { list } instead of a [vector] as input >> and you should directly get the answers (at least in Approx mode) Now I just have to get used to using ADD instead of +. OR negate and subtract === Subject: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work On my 20B, the batteries were so low that pushing certain buttons would reset the machine, but the battery low indicator never came on. The two batteries each measured about 2.67V, and the new ones about 3.25V. It works fine with the new batteries. Anyone else seen this lack of low batt indicator problem on theirs? -- === Subject: 2nd UPDATE: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work On my 20B, the batteries were so low that pushing certain buttons would > reset the machine, but the battery low indicator never came on. The two > batteries each measured about 2.67V, and the new ones about 3.25V. It > works fine with the new batteries. Anyone else seen this lack of low batt indicator problem on theirs? > It seems like there is hope. Look at Cyrille's post and my response to his post: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/forum.cgi?read=141803#14180 3 -- === Subject: UPDATE: Re: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work On my 20B, the batteries were so low that pushing certain buttons would > reset the machine, but the battery low indicator never came on. The two > batteries each measured about 2.67V, and the new ones about 3.25V. It > works fine with the new batteries. Anyone else seen this lack of low batt indicator problem on theirs? > Here's an interesting update to this story. I called tech support and described the situation. They asked me to pull the batteries out for 24 hours. I did, but the 20B low battery indicator still did not appear when the almost-depleted batteries were reinstalled, and the calculator still acted flaky. Tech support, then, sent me another 20B. It exhibits the same problem (no low battery indicator). I called tech support and told them that the replacement didn't work properly, either, and I asked for a refund. They escalated the case to Corporate. I called Corporate and the supervisor could not see the tech support case in his system. He asked for the serial numbers from the original and replacement 20B calculators. He said that they were invalid serial numbers. He said that CNG82600547 and CNG82300642 were not valid serial numbers, and that it appeared to have one too many zeroes. Very odd, indeed. At this point, Corporate said that they could not issue a refund because it was beyond the 30 day refund time period. I (calmly) explained that there is no way that their customers could know about this design deficiency within their one month refund period because the batteries last much longer than that, and I never got a low battery warning from the time I purchased the calculator to the time it lost its memory. He said that he was sorry, but that was their policy. I, then, called the Small Medium Business customer service department. The lady looked into it, said that it was beyond the 30 day refund period, but that she would make an exception because of the situation. I asked what I should do with these two unwanted 20B's. She told me to recycle them at an eWaste center (i.e., HP did not want them returned), and she made a note of that in the case file. So, I'm relieved that HP eventually stood behind their product, but I'm very disappointed that, to me, the 20B is unusable because I'll never know when I'm about to lose my work. -- === Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work > On my 20B, the batteries were so low that pushing certain buttons would > reset the machine, but the battery low indicator never came on. The two > batteries each measured about 2.67V, and the new ones about 3.25V. It > works fine with the new batteries. > Anyone else seen this lack of low batt indicator problem on theirs? What firmware version is your defective 20B? I wonder if it's a hardware or software bug... -- newell N5TNL === Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work >> On my 20B, the batteries were so low that pushing certain buttons would >> reset the machine, but the battery low indicator never came on. The two >> batteries each measured about 2.67V, and the new ones about 3.25V. It >> works fine with the new batteries. >> Anyone else seen this lack of low batt indicator problem on theirs? What firmware version is your defective 20B? I wonder if it's a > hardware or software bug... -- > newell N5TNL I couldn't find any documented way to find the firmware version, but after a little playing around, I figured it out. Here's how to do it: With the 20B off, hold down the PMT key. Then, press the ON/CE key. Finally, release the PMT key. This will put the 20B into test mode. When in test mode, use the scroll up/down keys to select the mode or data field display. To enter a mode like Test Keyboard or Test Screen modes, press the INPUT key and then hit various keys to see results. Anyway, by scrolling in these test modes, you can see various bits of information. Here's what I found for the two 20B calcs that do not display a low battery warning with known-crummy batteries: Old 20B (original purchased 7-17-2008): SW Version = 6 24 2008 2 Checksum = 213.213 Test Battery = 2.900 Replacement 20B (received 10-10-2008): SW Version = 6 16 2008 1 Checksum = 34.034 Test Battery = 2.900 Also, when I put in the almost-depleted batteries, I get: Test Battery = 2.200 but I have to make several attempts to get into this mode because the 20B keeps shutting off in the middle of these attempts. So, 1) It looks like the replacement 20B has older firmware than my original (if I'm deciphering it properly). 2) The 20B seems to be able to read the battery level relatively accurately, and I can see the low battery indicator icon lit up when I get into Test Screen mode. I'll be contacting HP, again, with this new information. The problem may simply be in the firmware. -- === Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work > SW Version = 6 24 2008 2 > Checksum = 213.213 > Test Battery = 2.900 Replacement 20B (received 10-10-2008): > SW Version = 6 16 2008 1 > Checksum = 34.034 > Test Battery = 2.900 Also, when I put in the almost-depleted batteries, I get: > Test Battery = 2.200 I seriously doubt the 20b can read the voltage of the battery to the thousandth of a volt. Looks like the HP is reading to the tenth and then violating the rules of significant figures :) But the fact that it seems to be able to read the voltage (to a reasonable degree of precision) strongly suggests that this is a firmware problem and not a hardware problem, so it would be a waste to throw out two 20b's over this issue. === Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work ) HP should fix this, hopefully in a firmware revision. But this makes the 20b unusable? I find that hard to imagine. How much work would ever be a risk? 10-15 cash flows? 10-15 data points? It can't hold enough data for this to be much of a risk, of course IMO. But, I would still find that hard to believe. :-) === Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work > What firmware version is your defective 20B? I wonder if it's a > hardware or software bug... > -- > newell N5TNL I couldn't find any documented way to find the firmware version, but after a > little playing around, I figured it out. Here's how to do it: It was mentioned on the HP Museum forum. I guess I should add that to the Wiki. > Anyway, by scrolling in these test modes, you can see various bits of > information. Here's what I found for the two 20B calcs that do not display a > low battery warning with known-crummy batteries: Old 20B (original purchased 7-17-2008): > SW Version = 6 24 2008 2 > Replacement 20B (received 10-10-2008): > SW Version = 6 16 2008 1 > So, 1) It looks like the replacement 20B has older firmware than my original (if > I'm deciphering it properly). That's how I read it as well. Very interesting. > 2) The 20B seems to be able to read the battery level relatively accurately, > and I can see the low battery indicator icon lit up when I get into Test > Screen mode. I'll be contacting HP, again, with this new information. The problem may > simply be in the firmware. It certainly sounds plausible. You could even update the two broken calcs... I've seen two firmware versions, and heard of a third: http://hpwiki.fatcity.com/doku.php?id=20b:firmware_versions === Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work I called Corporate and the supervisor could not see the tech support case in > his system. He asked for the serial numbers from the original and > replacement 20B calculators. He said that they were invalid serial numbers. > He said that CNG82600547 and CNG82300642 were not valid serial numbers, and > that it appeared to have one too many zeroes. Very odd, indeed. HP 50g calculators each have TWO serial numbers. One is printed on a sticker stuck onto the case (come on, HP, these serial numbers should be engraved) and the other is burned into the ROM. Strangely, these two serial numbers are different and also have a different number of digits. The sticker on my 50g is CNA 644xxxxx [8 digits] and the software serial number is CNA 641xxxx [7 digits]. So apparently my unit was in the factory for 3 weeks before its plastic enclosure was made. (On the 50g, to view the software serial number, start to perform a ROM upgrade by holding down the [+] and [-] keys while pressing the reset button on the back. This brings you to a screen that says 1. UPDATE CODE 2. SELF TEST and displays BOOT and SERIAL information.) Maybe the 20b also has two serial numbers of different lengths and Corporate got these two numbers mixed up. It's embarrassing if a company cannot keep track of its own products. === Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work sticker: CNA 63805561 256.05 MENU SERIAL => ...CNA6311848 That's my 50g engraved 49g+: CN33103000 using [ON]&[F4 D] then [ON]&[F3 C] and quick holding down [ + ]& [ - ] and releasing them gives the UPLOAD menu with CN33100509 at the bottom exiting by selecting selftest then [ON]&[F3 C] and it reboots... that's my defective 49g+ (the keys didn't last - HP does not replace...) V-PN X The sticker on my 50g is CNA 644xxxxx [8 digits] and the software serial number is CNA 641xxxx [7 digits]. So apparently my unit was in the factory for 3 weeks before its plastic enclosure was made. (On the 50g, to view the software serial number, start to perform a ROM upgrade by holding down the [+] and [-] keys while pressing the reset button on the back. This brings you to a screen that says 1. UPDATE CODE 2. SELF TEST and displays BOOT and SERIAL information.) X === Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work > HP 50g calculators each have TWO serial numbers. > One is printed on a sticker stuck onto the case > (come on, HP, these serial numbers should be engraved) My computer's and printer's serial numbers come on stickers, too. Even my first HP (HP35), IIRC. > On the 50g, to view the software serial number, > start to perform a ROM upgrade... How about the SERIAL command? (optionally followed by SCROLL) On all HP49/50 series? === Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work > On the 50g, to view the software serial number, > start to perform a ROM upgrade... How about the SERIAL command? > (optionally followed by SCROLL) > On all HP49/50 series? SERIAL doesn't seem to work on my 50g (ROM 2.09). It interprets that as a variable named 'SERIAL'. === Subject: Re: UPDATE: Re: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work > SERIAL doesn't seem to work on my 50g (ROM 2.09). It interprets > that as a variable named 'SERIAL'. You have to attach library 256 first (256 ATTACH), or else just do 256 MENU and pick it from the menu. === Subject: HP Calculator Items on eBay Please visit my store at http://stores.ebay.com/Egbok-Antique-Electronics?refid=store to view these items Pristine Boxed HP 82211B HPSolve Equation Card - HP48SX - Auction HP75D Bundle! I/O ROM Math ROM I/O Utilities, mag cards, WSFILE HELP lexen - Auction CMT71-64E 64K EPROM for the 71B $75.00 HP41C Finance I w/Manual $20.00 Wickes Synthetic Programming $25.00 HP-IL Cable - 24 in. $25.00 HP-IL Cable - 44 in. $30.00 HP 82059[ABCD] Power Adapter for Many Classic HP Devices $20.00 Again: http://stores.ebay.com/Egbok-Antique-Electronics?refid=store === Subject: SD filer bug This question is aimed to Tim Wessman. I tried his SDfiler with a 64 Mb SD card but no formatting atempt could make the card recognized by the SDfiler application : it always desperalely shows no card. I'm using both hp49g+ and hp50g and have the same problem on both calculators... Has someone an idea ? > Yoann D.8esir. I will ask you an obvious question (sorry if you feel it insulting, it is not my intention): is the card really an SD card? or is it an MMC? The fsystem library is not compatible with MMC cards, while the calculator OS is. I've never had a card that fails like that, and have tested with a couple 64 MB cards (actually, my everyday card is a 64 MB permanently in the calc and works fine with fsystem). Yours is the first report of a card actually not being recognized at all. === Subject: Re: SD filer bug > I tried his SDfiler with a 64 Mb SD card but no formatting atempt > could make the card recognized by the SDfiler application : it always > desperalely shows no card. > I'm using both hp49g+ and hp50g and have the same problem on both > calculators... Thats a new one. . . there were problems with not recognizing 2gb cards, but never anything smaller. Do you have another card to test? Is it just that card? I have a 32MB card that somehow was corrupted and lost about 11MB so it only reports a bit over 20 now and it works properly. > Has someone an idea ? Try a different card? If you have hpgcc2, you can compile one of the filesystem example programs ( I think the first one is the one I am remembering) and that will tell us if the hpgcc fs moudle is doing something funny, or if it is something in the C code in the SDlib. === Subject: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building Actually, could be said as a problem with COMPN_ as called in extable 2 which all of those use. I discovered this when making a small program to put a custom menu into the matrix writer. I pulled out the flashpointer code, and replaced the relevant parts using ::N to rebuilt things. I discovered that one or two of the higher pointers were changed after using ::N As an example, take a look at this :: ' PTR 6FBC5 BINT1 ::N ' PTR 6FBC6 BINT1 ::N ' PTR 6FBC7 BINT1 ::N ; Results in: :: PTR 1E431 ; :: PTR B1E43 ; :: PTR 2B1E4 ; I haven't had time to look into what is happening behind the scenes and thought I'd post this to see if this was a known issue or if this was expected behavior for some strange reason. TW === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building Hi On 2008-10-07 06:17:20 +1100, TW said: > Actually, could be said as a problem with COMPN_ as called in extable > 2 which all of those use. I discovered this when making a small > program to put a custom menu into the matrix writer. I pulled out the > flashpointer code, and replaced the relevant parts using ::N to > rebuilt things. I discovered that one or two of the higher pointers > were changed after using ::N > You just can't do that. ' PTR 6FBC5 BINT1 ::N PTR 6FBC5 is in a covered area and when you run ::N that pointer points to something invalid as you probably haven't configured the flash banks properly. The code inside the matrix writer hasn't been designed to be re-used elsewhere -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building ) > You just can't do that. Indeed. Because the pointer is rewritten. > ' > PTR 6FBC5 > BINT1 > ::N PTR 6FBC5 is in a covered area and when you run ::N that pointer points > to something invalid as you probably haven't configured the flash banks > properly. The code inside the matrix writer hasn't been designed to be re-used elsewhere Yes I know. In the past when I've modified things on the fly I'd never run into this rewriting that ::N does. I've pulled the composites apart, made the few modification to do what I needed, rebuilt them, and put in calls to use the FPTR BANK 0 trick. It isn't that complicated most of the time. . . TW === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building Care to share us what you did, why it was needed, etc We might learn some new tricks... > You just can't do that. Indeed. Because the pointer is rewritten. > ' > PTR 6FBC5 > BINT1 > ::N PTR 6FBC5 is in a covered area and when you run ::N that pointer points > to something invalid as you probably haven't configured the flash banks > properly. The code inside the matrix writer hasn't been designed to be re-used > elsewhere Yes I know. In the past when I've modified things on the fly I'd never run into this rewriting that ::N does. I've pulled the composites apart, made the few modification to do what I needed, rebuilt them, and put in calls to use the FPTR BANK 0 trick. It isn't that complicated most of the time. . . TW === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building on my real HP 50g + extable2 ASM then ->S2 gives back the same text excluding !NO CODE !RPL which I added to the beginning as a test I repeated the test without those two lines and yet again no change in the code are you using debug4x ? and emulator ? > Actually, could be said as a problem with COMPN_ as called in extable > 2 which all of those use. I discovered this when making a small > program to put a custom menu into the matrix writer. I pulled out the > flashpointer code, and replaced the relevant parts using ::N to > rebuilt things. I discovered that one or two of the higher pointers > were changed after using ::N As an example, take a look at this :: > ' > PTR 6FBC5 > BINT1 > ::N > ' > PTR 6FBC6 > BINT1 > ::N > ' > PTR 6FBC7 > BINT1 > ::N > ; Results in: :: PTR 1E431 ; :: PTR B1E43 ; :: PTR 2B1E4 ; > I haven't had time to look into what is happening behind the scenes > and thought I'd post this to see if this was a known issue or if this > was expected behavior for some strange reason. === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building The problem is what results when you _run_ the program; HP48 gives the results expected, while HP49/50 does not. === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building > I haven't had time to look into what is happening behind the > scenes and thought I'd post this to see if this was a known > issue or if this was expected behavior for some strange reason. This happens for all pointers that are composite objects and stored in a bank that normally is not visible to the system. If you call them the memory is normally configured through the FLASHPTR call which swaps in the bank, executes the code and swaps back to the original bank. So you have to configure the memory correctly while breaking them up to see the correct code inside (Nosy does this, for example) and if you build them back together (after some possible modifications) and there are pointers for a different flashbank than that the system is normally configured for you have to configure the memory for that as well. After you have build them back together they might show up as pointers again, as the flashbanks are configured back to the normal view afterwards. As you surely know ::N is a composite of :: TYPECOL_ COMPN_ ; TYPECOL_ is the prolog for a system rpl program and COMPN_ actually builds the program. To get your code as a working version back together you need to call something like this (instead of ::N): TYPECOL ' COMPN_ FLASHPTR #NumberOfTheBank 0 This will correctly configure the memory for that bank and call an EVAL (at the beginning of each flashbank there is an EVAL) to build your secondary while that bank is active. Note: You need to know from which bank your program is running ! Also if you want to call any unsupported pointer from any bank use ' PTR xxxxx FLASHPTR #NumberOfTheBank 0 But beware: All of this is dirty and might not work if the pointer changes and/or the code is moved to another flashbank. HTH, Andreas P.S.: This is kind of hard to explain so feel free to email me your exact problem. === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building > This happens for all pointers that are composite objects and stored in > a bank that normally is not visible to the system. If you call them > the memory is normally configured through the FLASHPTR call which > swaps in the bank, executes the code and swaps back to the original > bank. Yes. I know all about how this works, it was just a little unexpected for something that seems to be used for nothing but object composition. > So you have to configure the memory correctly while breaking them up > to see the correct code inside (Nosy does this, for example) Yes. I am doing this and getting the correct pointers, it was just rebuilding it that showed the problem. > TYPECOL ' COMPN_ FLASHPTR #NumberOfTheBank 0 I am going to be very busy for the next few days, but I will give it a try when I get some time. > But beware: All of this is dirty and might not work if the pointer > changes and/or the code is moved to another flashbank. Yup. It is in the matrix write code. I'm replacing the menu with one of my own and it is only one flashpointer deep. > HTH, > Andreas Indeed it did. I was already using the FPTR BANK 0 thing, but I still am not sure why COMPN_ behaving like that would be desirable. . . TW > P.S.: This is kind of hard to explain so feel free to email me your > exact problem. === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building >I was already using the FPTR BANK 0 thing, but I still > am not sure why COMPN behaving like that would be desirable. . . Well, I«d look into COMPN for that and the way it is building composite objects. Maybe the code got never adjusted for the added banks while migrating from 48GX to 49G ? However, it works for me that way ;-) > I'm replacing the menu with one > of my own and it is only one flashpointer deep. Mind posting the FlashPointer and what you are doing exactly ? That way we all could benefit from it. === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building > Mind posting the FlashPointer and what you are doing exactly ? That > way we all could benefit from it. DoOldMatrix is the one I was working through and yes I was planning on posting that since I've seen several people on the group wonder how to do a cusom menu in the matrtix writer before. That brings me to another question I guess regarding actually extracting out the flashpointers. There are several little code snippets on the newsgroup scattered over the years, and one in OT49 for pulling out flashpointers. Which one do you use? Or did you make your own? As far as I know there isn't one in the ROM anywhere. TW === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building I use a modified version of Flashptr_@ from OT49 to extract a Flashptr from the ROM. So far it has not failed on a single Flashptr that I tried to extract ;-) === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building > on my real HP 50g + extable2 > ASM Then EVAL the resulting program to get 3 programs on the stack as a result. TW === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building using SysRPL Stack display :: PTR 3DBC0 ; :: #+ ; :: PTR B03DB ; I verified with ->S2 ????? On Oct 6, 2:30 pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > on my real HP 50g + extable2 > ASM Then EVAL the resulting program to get 3 programs on the stack as a result. TW === Subject: more battery drain Again my HP50g's batteries are drained. I put in 4 rechargable AAAs, three of which hold a charge of 850mAh and one of over 1000mAh (measured by my charger). I used it for maybe 2 weeks and not often, maybe a total of 2 hours, doing only simple calculations. Any ideas? Could it be the little flat battery that's low? Do I have some kind of server or so enabled? This is getting really frustrating... === Subject: Re: more battery drain > Again my HP50g's batteries are drained. I put in 4 rechargable AAAs, > three of which hold a charge of 850mAh and one of over 1000mAh > (measured by my charger). I used it for maybe 2 weeks and not often, > maybe a total of 2 hours, doing only simple calculations. Any ideas? Could it be the little flat battery that's low? Do I have > some kind of server or so enabled? This is getting really > frustrating... Do you mean the calculator won't turn on, or that you're getting the low battery warning? If the calculator ceases operation, then it's certainly a bad battery. But, I'm guessing you mean you're getting the low battery indicator. The low battery warning is based solely on voltage, and is the voltage where a alkaline cell will be near the end of it's life. This usually works fine for ni-mh cells (which have a lower nominal voltage) but maybe yours are hitting that voltage early for some reason, and aren't anywhere near depleted. === Subject: Re: more battery drain Quick reply before I have to get going. They are the same battery set, and they are actually pretty good quality. It just so happens that one of them has a higher capacity, so no mixing and matching. They are all 4 rated for 850mAh. The low battery indicator came on first, and I could do a few calculations, but when I turned it on a few hours of not using it later, it wouldn't even stay on. I will check on the IrDA. Would that remain on through battery changes? I assume so. === Subject: Re: more battery drain Quick reply before I have to get going. They are the same battery set, and they are actually pretty good > quality. It just so happens that one of them has a higher capacity, so > no mixing and matching. They are all 4 rated for 850mAh. > The low battery indicator came on first, and I could do a few > calculations, but when I turned it on a few hours of not using it > later, it wouldn't even stay on. I will check on the IrDA. Would that remain on through battery > changes? I assume so. If you have a multimeter, maybe you can measure the voltage of the batteries when they're freshly charged, at the low battery warning, and then when it won't turn on any more. That should give us a good idea of what's going on. You can also make an electric current measurement (remember the meter goes in series with the batteries, not in parallel). You can compare your measurement to measurements made by Eric Rechlin in his August 17, 2007 message to this forum: Good luck, -Jonathan === Subject: Re: more battery drain > I will check on the IrDA. Would that remain on through battery changes? Isn't OFF supposed to automatically include CLOSEIO? Shouldn't removing a battery without turning OFF also turn itself off anyway? (IIRC, battery removal can even substitute for a reset, such as during ROM update) === Subject: Re: more battery drain * Koehler: Again my HP50g's batteries are drained. I put in 4 rechargable AAAs, > three of which hold a charge of 850mAh and one of over 1000mAh > (measured by my charger). Don't mix and match batteries, on any device. > I used it for maybe 2 weeks and not often, maybe a total of 2 hours, doing > only simple calculations. I've seen cheap NiMH batteries which completely drain themselves due to self discharge within this timeframe. -- Martijn van Buul - pino@dohd.org === Subject: Re: more battery drain > Again my HP50g's batteries are drained. I put in 4 rechargable AAAs, > three of which hold a charge of 850mAh and one of over 1000mAh > (measured by my charger). I used it for maybe 2 weeks and not often, > maybe a total of 2 hours, doing only simple calculations. Any ideas? Could it be the little flat battery that's low? Do I have > some kind of server or so enabled? This is getting really > frustrating... I'm not sure what's going on, but a few things come to mind: 1. When the calculator is idling, it consumes less power than if, say, you have a blinking cursor. So if you like to enter things, pause a bit, look for the numbers to use, then finish typing, this might take more batteries. 2. Your IrDA is on. Use CLOSEIO to shut that off. 3. Is it bad if you are using rechargable batteries of different capacities? If you can, try using four cells with the same current capacity (i.e. all 850 mAh). As for the backup battery, read this thread: Also check out this one: You might also try loading a battery monitor program from hpcalc.org to see how your calculator is doing with the batteries. However, Ni-MH cells tend to stay flat (voltage-wise) during usage and only plummet when very near the end if its recharge cycle. This makes battery monitoring a bit more tricky. When you said that your 50g's batteries are drained, did you mean that the low battery annuciator turned on, or that the batteries were actually so low that the calculator itself would no longer turn on? === Subject: HP Knowledge Base? I was trying to get to Ed Kalinowski's HP Knowledge Base at http://move.to/hpkb and I keep getting a 404. Did Ed discontinue this? I couldn't find anything in the archives. === Subject: ROM 2.09 - Solve Equation Problem This is a comparison with same flags between 49G (1.19-6) and 50g (2.09) Assume default values... 1. Enter to NUM.SLV 2. Select Solve equation.. 3. Enter Eq: 'dX(X^2+3*X)=0' d is the symbol [RS][T] 4. Select X and press [SOLVE] 5. Press ON to exit At this point level 1 shows X:(-1.5); now, this is the problem: 6. Replace the value for X=-1.2 7. Enter again to NUM.SLV and select 1 8. Select X (that shows -1.2) and press [SOLVE] 49G gets X:-1.5 --> OK 50g gets X:-1.200001 --> ?? Any ides for this peculiar result?... maybe the solution is PURGE variable but no coincidence for both models (or ROM)? - Gaak - === Subject: Re: ROM 2.09 - Solve Equation Problem This is a comparison with same flags between 49G (1.19-6) and 50g >(2.09) >Assume default values... 1. Enter to NUM.SLV >2. Select Solve equation.. >3. Enter Eq: 'dX(X^2+3*X)=0' d is the symbol [RS][T] 4. Select X and press [SOLVE] >5. Press ON to exit At this point level 1 shows X:(-1.5); now, this is the problem: 6. Replace the value for X=-1.2 >7. Enter again to NUM.SLV and select 1 >8. Select X (that shows -1.2) and press [SOLVE] 49G gets X:-1.5 --> OK >50g gets X:-1.200001 --> ?? Any ides for this peculiar result?... maybe the solution is PURGE >variable but no coincidence for both models (or ROM)? - Gaak - 2: Enter Eq: 'dX(X^2+3*X)=0' 1: Enter 'X' Enter ZEROS OK === Subject: Re: ROM 2.09 - Solve Equation Problem >This is a comparison with same flags between 49G (1.19-6) and 50g >(2.09) >Assume default values... >1. Enter to NUM.SLV >2. Select Solve equation.. >3. Enter Eq: 'dX(X^2+3*X)=0' >d is the symbol [RS][T] >4. Select X and press [SOLVE] >5. Press ON to exit >At this point level 1 shows X:(-1.5); now, this is the problem: >6. Replace the value for X=-1.2 >7. Enter again to NUM.SLV and select 1 >8. Select X (that shows -1.2) and press [SOLVE] >49G gets X:-1.5 --> OK >50g gets X:-1.200001 --> ?? >Any ides for this peculiar result?... maybe the solution is PURGE >variable but no coincidence for both models (or ROM)? >- Gaak - 2: Enter Eq: 'dX(X^2+3*X)=0' > 1: Enter 'X' > Enter ZEROS > OK The solution is OK but, the problem is with Equation Solver, ROM 2.09 (and similar). This is a bug?... - Gaak - === Subject: Re: ROM 2.09 - Solve Equation Problem if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, smells... >This is a comparison with same flags between 49G (1.19-6) and 50g >(2.09) >Assume default values... >1. Enter to NUM.SLV >2. Select Solve equation.. >3. Enter Eq: 'dX(X^2+3*X)=0' >d is the symbol [RS][T] >4. Select X and press [SOLVE] >5. Press ON to exit >At this point level 1 shows X:(-1.5); now, this is the problem: >6. Replace the value for X=-1.2 >7. Enter again to NUM.SLV and select 1 >8. Select X (that shows -1.2) and press [SOLVE] >49G gets X:-1.5 --> OK >50g gets X:-1.200001 --> ?? >Any ides for this peculiar result?... maybe the solution is PURGE >variable but no coincidence for both models (or ROM)? >- Gaak - 2: Enter Eq: 'dX(X^2+3*X)=0' > 1: Enter 'X' > Enter ZEROS > OK The solution is OK but, the problem is with Equation Solver, ROM 2.09 (and similar). This is a bug?... - Gaak - === Subject: Re: ROM 2.09 - Solve Equation Problem > This is a comparison with same flags between 49G (1.19-6) and 50g (2.09) Well, transfer 2.09 (via ROMUPLOAD) into 49G, and results might then be the same (both wrong :) It's just like politics -- as long as both parties voted for it (or continued similar policies), it must have been good for the country, even at a cost of $1,000,000,000,000 or so (and so many lives, etc.) === Subject: HP 17BII+ vs HP 20b posting-account=GeQPtAoAAAASzBOAGRNh1xqZKgSl-XZ1 rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092414 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) what are the differences? The 17B is twice the price. === Subject: Re: HP 17BII+ vs HP 20b posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > what are the differences? The 17B is twice the price. Check out Eric Rechlin's excellent website hpcalc.org: 17bII+ http://commerce.hpcalc.org/17biip.php 20b http://commerce.hpcalc.org/20b.php === === === Subject: Re: HP Req: Question? Why is Mod = 13 ? Hi On 2008-09-08 08:14:14 +1000, PeterW said: In former centuries the cross sum method was a nice trick to > check multiplications and additions. former centuries? I still use this method to quickly verify my multiplications -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: HP Req: Question? Why is Mod = 13 ? m: >> I really don't understand the significance >> of the number 13 as a default modulo setting. >> I see it's a prime... >> Why not 12, or 10, or 8 ( or 3, or 23, or 1999..) ? >> Example: if you calculate modulo 9 (which is not prime) >> you get 3 * 3 mod 9 = 0. This means in the integers modulo 9, >> the rule if a product is zero, then one of the factors must be >> zero is not true. >> If you calculate modulo a prime, this rule is true and you have a >> so called finite field. > Here's my guess: There has to be an initial default value to be used for the ARITH/ > MODUL functions so that they will work (even if not to the user's > expectation) instead of giving an error. A prime modulus is > inherently more interesting than a composite one (see the above > post by PeterW), so 13 is as good as any other. Plus, it's not > too big or too small to be handled by the mind. Also, INVMOD is only guaranteed to work for all arguments if the > modulus is prime (see above by PeterW). This is because all cyclic > groups Z/pZ (p prime) will have no zero divisors. This means that > all elements of Z/pZ are units and are therefore, by definition, > invertible. Other than that, I don't see any particular reason why they chose > 13 as the default modulus. > Hi again- chase around the W^3 for additional information. Interesting.. JH === Subject: Re: 2nd UPDATE: My HP20B low battery indicator doesn't work posting-account=82unwgoAAABKn0foN-teZr4DLYjqF_TL Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Oct 12, 4:35pm, W On my 20B, the batteries were so low that pushing certain buttons would > reset the machine, but the battery low indicator never came on. The two > batteries each measured about 2.67V, and the new ones about 3.25V. It > works fine with the new batteries. > Anyone else seen this lack of low batt indicator problem on theirs? > It seems like there is hope. Look at Cyrille's post and my response to his > post: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/forum.cgi?read=14180... > -- I don't have an account there, So I'll post it here: When is the voltage reading for the battery off condition taking place? Continuously? Only at certain times? If it is during the physical keystroke the higher current draw will result in a lower voltage reading, meaning the idle voltage level is potentially notably higher than that used for indicator calculation. Perhaps more testing adding a resistor of the right value between the power supply and the device to better simulate the impact of the batteries internal resistance is in order. OT: It seems to me there is a market for a bench power supply that simulates various batteries accurately. You input the type, number, configuration of cells, and and indication of remaining juice (Not sure what scale should be used, but obviously at maximum the Open terminal voltage is that of brand new cells in the given configuration, and the minimum is 100% depleted: open terminal voltage of zero (well past the cells' end of useful life)) and it outputs a voltage that accurately varies with the current, modeling both the parallel and series internal resistances (and perhaps even the internal capacitances) of the batteries at indicated remaining capacity. Such a device probably exists, but I have not seem them, even in reasonably well general purpose university electrical labs. === Subject: Free magazines posting-account=AigdHQoAAAAs3m5nChOGgQlhhWhN2Mob Magazines interesting that you can subscribe and send it to your home or download it in pdf version. For example: >Engaging with the new eLearning: http://jhusel.tradepub.com/c/pubRD.mpl?sr=oc& t=oc:&pc=w ado16 12 strategies for engaging and retaining learners through compelling online experiences. >Vulnerability Management for Dummies: http://jhusel.tradepub.com/c/pubRD.mpl?sr=oc& t=oc:&pc=w qa18 As a business owner, or someone responsible for network security within your organization, you need to understand how to prevent attacks and eliminate network weaknesses that leave your business exposed and at risk. Vulnerability Management for Dummies arms you with the facts and shows you how to implement a successful Vulnerability Management program. Whether your network consists of just a handful of computers or thousands of servers distributed around the world, this 5-part book will help: Explain the critical need for Vulnerability Management (VM) Detail the essential best-practice steps of a successful VM Program Outline the various VM Solutions - including the pros & cons of each Highlight the award-winning QualysGuard VM solution Provide a 10-point checklist for removing vulnerabilities from your key resources >Google Apps Made Simple!: Offer Link: http://jhusel.tradepub.com/c/pubRD.mpl?sr=oc& t=oc:&pc=w goog02 Whether you're a small business, a large enterprise or a school, Google Apps is easy and affordable, and your users get Google's innovative tools to enhance their communication and collaboration. This tour shows you Google Apps in action. Learn the drivers for considering open source and the IT situations where open source makes sense. 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If you want to more magazine you can check this link: http://jhusel.tradepub.com/ === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial posting-account=9UYNgQoAAACy6X-q5LWyT5dc_vfeKL2k Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) another issue with the supplied arm-elf-gcc from your hpgcc.tgz package the hpgccenv script sets the HPGCC environment variable to a cygwin- styled path, but the arm-elf-gcc doesn't like this path format. it seems, that it only works with a DOS styled format in order to find include and library pathes. see log from the bash: ~/hpgcc/test $ make clean rm -f *.o rm -f *.hp rm -f *.exe ############################################ dos-style ########################################## ~/hpgcc/test $ echo $HPGCC I:/cygwin_tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2 ~/hpgcc/test $ make hello.hp arm-elf-gcc -mtune=arm920t -mcpu=arm920t -mlittle-endian -fomit-frame- pointer -m soft-float -Wall -Os -II:/cygwin_tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2/include -LI:/ cygwin_tiwag/hp gcc/2.0SP2/lib -mthumb-interwork -mthumb -c hello.c arm-elf-ld -LI:/cygwin_tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2/lib -T VCld.script I:/ cygwin_tiwag/hpg cc/2.0SP2/lib/crt0.o hello.o -lhpg -lhplib -lgcc -o hello.exe elf2hp hello.exe hello.hp rm hello.o hello.exe ############################################################################ ################# OK ~/hpgcc/test $ make clean rm -f *.o rm -f *.hp rm -f *.exe ~/hpgcc/test $ cd .. ~/hpgcc $ . hpgccenv ~/hpgcc $ cd test ######################################### cygwin-style ########################################## ~/hpgcc/test $ echo $HPGCC /cygdrive/i/cygwin_tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2 ~/hpgcc/test $ make hello.hp arm-elf-gcc -mtune=arm920t -mcpu=arm920t -mlittle-endian -fomit-frame- pointer -m soft-float -Wall -Os -I/cygdrive/i/cygwin_tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2/include - L/cygdrive /i/cygwin_tiwag/hpgcc/2.0SP2/lib -mthumb-interwork -mthumb -c hello.c hello.c:1:21: error: hpgcc49.h: No such file or directory hello.c: In function 'main': hello.c:5: warning: implicit declaration of function 'clear_screen' hello.c:6: warning: implicit declaration of function 'printf' hello.c:6: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function 'prin tf' hello.c:7: error: 'WAIT_CANCEL' undeclared (first use in this function) hello.c:7: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once hello.c:7: error: for each function it appears in.) make: *** [hello.o] Error 1 ############################################################################ ############### ERROR this could be confusing for beginners ... === Subject: Re: Help with hpgcc tutorial posting-account=9UYNgQoAAACy6X-q5LWyT5dc_vfeKL2k Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I'll document the exact steps for the next update (sometime next > month). For now you just need gcc, X11, and GTK. With some effort > GTK can be dropped. i managed it to get it running with minimal requirements additional to the above a library called pango was necessary. tiwag === Subject: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building Actually, could be said as a problem with COMPN_ as called in extable 2 which all of those use. I discovered this when making a small program to put a custom menu into the matrix writer. I pulled out the flashpointer code, and replaced the relevant parts using ::N to rebuilt things. I discovered that one or two of the higher pointers were changed after using ::N As an example, take a look at this :: ' PTR 6FBC5 BINT1 ::N ' PTR 6FBC6 BINT1 ::N ' PTR 6FBC7 BINT1 ::N ; Results in: :: PTR 1E431 ; :: PTR B1E43 ; :: PTR 2B1E4 ; I haven't had time to look into what is happening behind the scenes and thought I'd post this to see if this was a known issue or if this was expected behavior for some strange reason. TW === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building on my real HP 50g + extable2 ASM then ->S2 gives back the same text excluding !NO CODE !RPL which I added to the beginning as a test I repeated the test without those two lines and yet again no change in the code are you using debug4x ? and emulator ? > Actually, could be said as a problem with COMPN_ as called in extable > 2 which all of those use. I discovered this when making a small > program to put a custom menu into the matrix writer. I pulled out the > flashpointer code, and replaced the relevant parts using ::N to > rebuilt things. I discovered that one or two of the higher pointers > were changed after using ::N As an example, take a look at this :: > ' > PTR 6FBC5 > BINT1 > ::N > ' > PTR 6FBC6 > BINT1 > ::N > ' > PTR 6FBC7 > BINT1 > ::N > ; Results in: :: PTR 1E431 ; :: PTR B1E43 ; :: PTR 2B1E4 ; > I haven't had time to look into what is happening behind the scenes > and thought I'd post this to see if this was a known issue or if this > was expected behavior for some strange reason. === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building The problem is what results when you _run_ the program; HP48 gives the results expected, while HP49/50 does not. === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building > I haven't had time to look into what is happening behind the > scenes and thought I'd post this to see if this was a known > issue or if this was expected behavior for some strange reason. This happens for all pointers that are composite objects and stored in a bank that normally is not visible to the system. If you call them the memory is normally configured through the FLASHPTR call which swaps in the bank, executes the code and swaps back to the original bank. So you have to configure the memory correctly while breaking them up to see the correct code inside (Nosy does this, for example) and if you build them back together (after some possible modifications) and there are pointers for a different flashbank than that the system is normally configured for you have to configure the memory for that as well. After you have build them back together they might show up as pointers again, as the flashbanks are configured back to the normal view afterwards. As you surely know ::N is a composite of :: TYPECOL_ COMPN_ ; TYPECOL_ is the prolog for a system rpl program and COMPN_ actually builds the program. To get your code as a working version back together you need to call something like this (instead of ::N): TYPECOL ' COMPN_ FLASHPTR #NumberOfTheBank 0 This will correctly configure the memory for that bank and call an EVAL (at the beginning of each flashbank there is an EVAL) to build your secondary while that bank is active. Note: You need to know from which bank your program is running ! Also if you want to call any unsupported pointer from any bank use ' PTR xxxxx FLASHPTR #NumberOfTheBank 0 But beware: All of this is dirty and might not work if the pointer changes and/or the code is moved to another flashbank. HTH, Andreas P.S.: This is kind of hard to explain so feel free to email me your exact problem. === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092414 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > This happens for all pointers that are composite objects and stored in > a bank that normally is not visible to the system. If you call them > the memory is normally configured through the FLASHPTR call which > swaps in the bank, executes the code and swaps back to the original > bank. Yes. I know all about how this works, it was just a little unexpected for something that seems to be used for nothing but object composition. > So you have to configure the memory correctly while breaking them up > to see the correct code inside (Nosy does this, for example) Yes. I am doing this and getting the correct pointers, it was just rebuilding it that showed the problem. > TYPECOL ' COMPN_ FLASHPTR #NumberOfTheBank 0 I am going to be very busy for the next few days, but I will give it a try when I get some time. > But beware: All of this is dirty and might not work if the pointer > changes and/or the code is moved to another flashbank. Yup. It is in the matrix write code. I'm replacing the menu with one of my own and it is only one flashpointer deep. > HTH, > Andreas Indeed it did. I was already using the FPTR BANK 0 thing, but I still am not sure why COMPN_ behaving like that would be desirable. . . TW > P.S.: This is kind of hard to explain so feel free to email me your > exact problem. === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building >I was already using the FPTR BANK 0 thing, but I still > am not sure why COMPN behaving like that would be desirable. . . Well, I«d look into COMPN for that and the way it is building composite objects. Maybe the code got never adjusted for the added banks while migrating from 48GX to 49G ? However, it works for me that way ;-) > I'm replacing the menu with one > of my own and it is only one flashpointer deep. Mind posting the FlashPointer and what you are doing exactly ? That way we all could benefit from it. HTH, Andreas === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.0.3) Gecko/2008092414 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Mind posting the FlashPointer and what you are doing exactly ? That > way we all could benefit from it. DoOldMatrix is the one I was working through and yes I was planning on posting that since I've seen several people on the group wonder how to do a cusom menu in the matrtix writer before. That brings me to another question I guess regarding actually extracting out the flashpointers. There are several little code snippets on the newsgroup scattered over the years, and one in OT49 for pulling out flashpointers. Which one do you use? Or did you make your own? As far as I know there isn't one in the ROM anywhere. TW === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building I use a modified version of Flashptr_@ from OT49 to extract a Flashptr from the ROM. So far it has not failed on a single Flashptr that I tried to extract ;-) HTH, Andreas === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building > on my real HP 50g + extable2 > ASM Then EVAL the resulting program to get 3 programs on the stack as a result. TW === Subject: Re: Problem with ::N, {}N and ->LIST and any composite building using SysRPL Stack display :: PTR 3DBC0 ; :: #+ ; :: PTR B03DB ; I verified with ->S2 ????? On Oct 6, 2:30 pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > on my real HP 50g + extable2 > ASM Then EVAL the resulting program to get 3 programs on the stack as a result. TW === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Is this this future of handheld calculators? spacetime.us/iphone/ Yes. It got all what the current calculator maker missed to create in the last 10 years or so: 1) A compatible Desktop Application to develop your programs on. 2) Excellent colour graphic. 3) A touch screen to make to combat the button chaos Now some might not agree with point 3 but I like to invite you to read http://uiq3.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Office/FX-602P/QVGA#active_keyboa rd Born out of need the active display has proven to be a damm side easier and better to use the classic keyboard. Especially when using the alpha mode. === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator > Is this this future of handheld calculators? spacetime.us/iphone/ Sadly...! The programming language doesn't seem to have the full spectrum capability of the 10 year old, 128k HP48sx...??? === Subject: Re: Off topic iphone calculator > Wow, looks very nice. There are emulators for HP calcs on the iPhone > but these look marvellous. Not sure I'd want to program using the touch > screen keyboard, but the visual impact is high! >> Is this this future of handheld calculators? >> spacetime.us/iphone/ > Very nice! I wouldn't give it high marks for durability as a > calculator though. > I'm a bit of a key pounder so the face of the iphone might get a bit > deformed after a while. I suppose the color display might tempt some > of us to make the switch. The graphics are pretty impressive to me > because I'm more of a visual learner. It just occured to me that I > don't send text messages from my hp so why calculate on my > iphone? This is what i've been waiting for, for at least 5 years...! i wonder if it might be possible to write the 'BASIC' programs on your big box and download them to the iphone... Or hopefully, this will work on the ipod...! hmmmmmmm...??? === Subject: Re: SD filer bug > This question is aimed to Tim Wessman. > I tried his SDfiler with a 64 Mb SD card but no formatting atempt > could make the card recognized by the SDfiler application : it always > desperalely shows no card. > I'm using both hp49g+ and hp50g and have the same problem on both > calculators... Has someone an idea ? > Yoann D.8esir. I will ask you an obvious question (sorry if you feel it insulting, it is not my intention): is the card really an SD card? or is it an MMC? The fsystem library is not compatible with MMC cards, while the calculator OS is. I've never had a card that fails like that, and have tested with a couple 64 MB cards (actually, my everyday card is a 64 MB permanently in the calc and works fine with fsystem). Yours is the first report of a card actually not being recognized at all. === Subject: Re: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume Nice summary Eric... The event was very enjoyable (my first time) -- however I was only able to attend on Saturday because I had other things going on (did I win any door prizes--my number was 10?) at home. I enjoyed having dinner with Megha Shyam, Pavneet Arora and Andreas Moeller; and having lunch with Charles Patton, Pavneet and Sam. The presentations were good and I very much enjoyed my off-line chats with people. It was neat to see James Donnelly and to put a person/face to a name I have been familiar with for so long. As far as reduced interest in calculators and math, I think Charles, Shyam and others all touched on it in their talks in one way or another -- the constant theme I got out of it is the sad state of Math education and the fact that too many people are all to distracted with things like iPods, cell phones, games and the like to ever really learn anything a see the real value of pushing a pursuit to a higher level of discipline -- like learning how to program the stupid gizmos (which only a few do), or better yet, learning the fundamental principles of how things work, why we need things to work and to apply knowledge in service of a greater good. I would love to chat with GT and others. We could go on -- but again, I enjoyed meeting the people. Greg Savage === Subject: Re: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume posting-account=ONL7NQoAAABZqWb81IAv8P7NSihlcebE CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Yes, I've noticed the reduction in activity as well. HHC 2008 was terrific as always. One thing I noticed was a much more positive attitude compared to the almost doom and gloom that was evident not many years ago. As others there noted, I believe that finally in so many ways, HP gets it - they understand their own heritage, opportunities and user resources. The HP-20b which we each received is already being put to serious use by this electrical engineer - all the more remarkable since earlier financial machines (I enjoy my 12 Platinum) were pretty much financial *only*. Having a fairly comprehensive set of scientific functions and engineering notation makes it downright handy. And I'm boggled at the possibilities that updating its flash-based firmware will allow This old HP-25/-67/-41C era relic really enjoyed the presentations more than any since the '80s - and that's a high standard indeed. If you can attend an HHC, do so - you'll not regret it! Jim Horn (older than Joe) === Subject: Re: Surprised by Lack of News from HHC 2008 and Overall Low Volume Mark - have tried emailing you but both addresses that I have are bouncing. Please would you let me know the email address to use. -- === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > The only acceptable display is HP 12 and HP 17bII+. If you say HP 12 - would that not include the HP 11, HP 15 and HP 16 as well? Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > OK, check Casio 115 FX, and TI multi view editions of their TI-30 > simple, non graphic, non programmable calculators. I have seen both versions of the Casio FX-115 (MS and ES). The top row of the display is not as good as the bottom row because the top is a dot-matrix and the bottom is segmented. I have not seen a multi view TI-30, but the older TI-30 Xa's have good displays (though they suffer from the logarithm bug and suggest that 1.000000001^1000000000 ~ 2.719193 > e). > Check also TI V200 > and compare with HP 50. Check also Casio fx-9860G. If you want to see > how good display can look like TI Voyage 200 suffers from the same tiny print as the TI-89 series. HP 50g has physically larger pixels and higher contrast, though the background has as slight orange tint. I have not seen the Casio, but I have seen a Casio Powergraphic with a color display (I know, this is not a fair comparison) and it had terrible viewing angle. The 3-color display was cool, but I don't think it's necessary on a handheld. Check also 30 years old Sharp EL-5100 and Sharp PC-1211 Clearly I don't have access to these. I don' think that there is any excuse for HP > I didn't say that HP had any excuses. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Hi > On 2008-10-05 16:16:22 +1100, areaseg2@gmail.com said: > >> I am awaiting for 14 years an HP calculator with color LCD. >> Nowadays color LCDs are found in everywhare. Even a 12 years old boy >> can have a cell phone with color LCD. HP seems to have the technology >> to make digital webcams with color LCDs. >> But I ask myself and to anyone here, >> why it was not already done? Have you ever seen a coloured LCD device powered by AAA batteries > lasting for over a month of a single set of batteries. No, but AAA is outdated as well. Today one used Li-whatever rechargeables. Mind you, some of the oldest HPs used rechargeables as well. Martin - -- Martin Krischik krischik@me.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFI6muxijwKaHyem9cRAklmAKDs2jyHUZtK4jXFcApgVUswWpqDaACePG5A +JpUA08Dla1H5mIrX9Hs3WE= =3aCn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > Have you ever seen a coloured LCD device powered by AAA batteries > lasting for over a month of a single set of batteries. No, but AAA is outdated as well. Today one used Li-whatever > rechargeables. Mind you, some of the oldest HPs used rechargeables as well. Even your Li-ion rechargable cells cannot sustain a device with a color display for a month of battery life. Standard cells like the AAA/AA/C/D/9V are the way to go for handhelds. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > AAA is outdated as well. Today one uses Li-whatever rechargeables. The use of Li-whatever rechargeables is exactly why my otherwise highly capable PPCs are now turning into expensive paperweights -- solely because their one-of a kind size/shape cell is no longer manufactured, old warehouse battery stock being unloaded today doesn't hold much of a charge, and the expensive PPCs become useless without replacing the Lithium ion cells every so often. However, my ancient but still perfectly working Sharp wizards (with full keyboards and wide display screens) and HP graphing calculators are still completely useful, because they are powered by ever-available standard AAAs -- rechargeable versions of which are also available everywhere. Beware of devices which will become extinct whenever their batteries do. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > >> AAA is outdated as well. Today one uses Li-whatever rechargeables. The use of Li-whatever rechargeables is exactly why > my otherwise highly capable PPCs are now turning into expensive paperweights -- > solely because their one-of a kind size/shape cell is no longer manufactured, > old warehouse battery stock being unloaded today > doesn't hold much of a charge, and the expensive PPCs become useless > without replacing the Lithium ion cells every so often. However, my ancient but still perfectly working Sharp wizards > (with full keyboards and wide display screens) and HP graphing calculators > are still completely useful, because they are powered > by ever-available standard AAAs -- rechargeable versions of which > are also available everywhere. Beware of devices which will become extinct whenever their batteries do. Very true indeed. But not the fault of Li-whatever - it's the fault of greedy and selfish manufactures. 30 years or so they where able to agree on a Li-Button-Batteries standard but today they can't do so for Li-whatever rechargeables. And we - the customer - suffer from it. BTW: didn't some HP calculators use an AA-rechargeables pack so standard AA could be used in case of need? === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! Very true indeed. But not the fault of Li-whatever - it's the fault of > greedy and selfish manufactures. 30 years or so they where able to agree on a Li-Button-Batteries > standard but today they can't do so for Li-whatever rechargeables. And > we - the customer - suffer from it. That's because Li-ion cells operate at about 3.7 V, a significant difference from Ni-MH (and Ni-Cd) which have a nominal voltage of 1.2 V. Putting a Li-ion cell into a AAA form factor could potentially fry some devices by supplying too much voltage. Rechargable Li-ions are usually molded to whatever shape the product is in to maximize its capacity. They do this to squeeze the battery in to ever-thinner electronic devices. A universal standard would be nice, but then different companies would argue over what exactly that standard should be. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > Putting a Li-ion cell into a AAA form factor... No one suggested using the identical form factor of an AAA cell for Li-ion, only that the fact of a product being designed to use some standard might be important to the useful lifetime of the product. > Rechargable Li-ions are usually molded to whatever shape the product > is in to maximize its capacity. They do this to squeeze the battery > into ever-thinner electronic devices. Watch batteries (and even thin calculator batteries) likewise needed to be squeezed into ever thinner watches and flat calculators, but this managed to get done in a way that produced standardized sizes (some for 1.5v, others for 3v), which are still available (except at Wal-Mart, which doesn't recognize the existence of size 389 :) > A universal standard would be nice, but then different companies > would argue over what exactly that standard should be. Has always been true of everything, yet has been overcome most of the time; even some of HP's special battery packs (including those which were part of the case) used standard cells which could usually be replaced. http://www.batterycrossref.com says that there even exist standardized rechargeable lithium ion coin cells, with sizes (LIR1620, LIR2016, LIR2025, LIR2032, ..., LIR3048) suggesting that these may be the same form factor as 3v non-rechargeable lithium cells; some other, more easily packed larger call sizes and shapes (e.g. rectangular) could easily be conceived, with whatever additional contacts (or electronic elements) might be useful. Need a few thousand LIR2450? http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/204542313/3_7V_rechargeable_button_cell_LI R2450.html Supply Ability: 500,000 Pieces per Week === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple > scientific calculators. HP41? Martin - -- Martin Krischik krischik@me.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFI6mr8ijwKaHyem9cRAgsuAJ49+9QIpxXNpO3FZQNhQmWSSAZIlACeLRu6 WuQ1DwMOrLRgiCqRMCruwuE= =VfqD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple > scientific calculators. HP41? The '41 had a 14-segment display. And of course it wasn't a simple scientific calculator. 8-) Dieter === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple > scientific calculators. >> HP41? The '41 had a 14-segment display. > And of course it wasn't a simple scientific calculator. 8-) Precisely. So you can have a good display on an advanced calculator. But then: No graphic display. Martin -- mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple > scientific calculators. > HP41? The '41 had a 14-segment display. > And of course it wasn't a simple scientific calculator. 8-) Dieter You know what I meant. ;) I meant the segmented displays (however many there are per character) as opposed to the dot-matrix LCDs. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! >> The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple >> scientific calculators. >> HP41? >> The '41 had a 14-segment display. >> And of course it wasn't a simple scientific calculator. 8-) >> Dieter You know what I meant. ;) >I meant the segmented displays (however many there are per character) >as opposed to the dot-matrix LCDs. > Dot matrix in HP 17bII+ is perfect === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! <9i8le497p5rpne8etu46gnts48b44lm38a@4ax.com> posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Dot matrix in HP 17bII+ is perfect Okay, that's good. (I don't have a 17bII+) === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > I am awaiting for 14 years an HP calculator with color LCD. Nowadays color LCDs are found in everywhare. Even a 12 years old boy > can have a cell phone with color LCD. HP seems to have the technology > to make digital webcams with color LCDs. But I ask myself and to anyone here, > why it was not already done? Carlos - HP48 user sinde 1994www.area48.com i think that HP has just lost interest in making calculators. At the time when the HP28 came out, the lap top computer with Mathematica was taking over that niche, For the previous 15 years or so, the HP41 was essentially the only programmable, affordable - Computer- that was available for the everyman. The iPhone and it's coming spawn of handheld devil machines is going to be the ultimate solution to this... But the new SpaceTime doesn't even vaguely approach the functionality of the HP28 for full spectrum programming. ( which is incomprehensible! ) As soon as someone comes out with a really easy to use, do everything programming language for the new cell phones, this argument/problem will be over... But i don't think that that's going to happen any time soon. i think that there is -something else- to this. i find it very suspicious that 20 years ago, every computer that you bought had a built in, easy to use programming language, and now, you can't buy an affordable programming language, and they're getting impossible to use. Programming languages are getting harder and harder to use, not easier. i always thought that the HP48's programming language was the easiest, most intuitive language to use, short of plain english. But the computer & software manufacturers just don't want everyone to have an easy to use programming language, which means that this next ( long overdue ) easy to use, fully functional, full color hand held calculator will NEVER EVER become available. === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > i find it very suspicious that 20 years ago, every computer that you > bought had a built in, easy to use programming language, and now, you > can't buy an affordable programming language, and they're getting > impossible to use. My thinking as well. However: it is only true if you buy the M$-Windows systems. Both Linux and Mac OS X come with several programming languages out of the box. Mac OS X even comes with a nice GUI called XCode and Objective-C or Objective-C++ are not that hard to learn Martin - -- Martin Krischik krischik@me.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFI6mzxijwKaHyem9cRAq1QAKDvVBXOvZ26hSvtrAfOk+IuhKfwpgCfeoAQ eUdYbqbPGuRuwZdlmshJjVQ= =kdoW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > i find it very suspicious that 20 years ago, every computer that you > bought had a built in, easy to use programming language, and now, you > can't buy an affordable programming language, and they're getting > impossible to use. My thinking as well. However: it is only true if you buy the MS-Windows > systems. Both Linux and Mac OS X come with several programming languages > out of the box. No, it isn't even true for Windows. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 and 2008 Express Editions (with C++, C#, and VB.NET versions) are completely free (not Free, but free), and have pretty much anything that most individual developers would want. You only need the full version if you need add-ins or a few other features that power users might want. Microsoft even gives away a free version of SQL Server Express, which is sufficiently powerful for most personal databases. They also have PowerShell, which is their competitor to the Linux/Unix command shells (yes, I know that those who don't understand Unix are doomed to recreate it -- poorly). Plus, you can run GCC and the JDK and Eclipse and other good development software on Windows without paying anything. Pretty much any language supported by Linux has free versions for Windows as well. So a wide assortment of programming languages are free for virtually every platform out there. It's just not necessarily well promoted or installed by default in a majority of systems. Even many Linux distributions don't necessary install much along the lines of development software by default. The biggest thing here that has changed in the last 25 years is that now the vast majority of computer users (and likely, to stay on topic, calculator users as well) just want to use the computer, not program it, so the marketing is different. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: 14 years awaiting! > i find it very suspicious that 20 years ago, every computer that you > bought had a built in, easy to use programming language, and now, you > can't buy an affordable programming language, and they're getting > impossible to use. >> My thinking as well. However: it is only true if you buy the MS-Windows >> systems. Both Linux and Mac OS X come with several programming languages >> out of the box. No, it isn't even true for Windows. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 and 2008 Express Editions (with C++, C#, and > VB.NET versions) are completely free (not Free, but free), and have pretty > much anything that most individual developers would want. The part in quotes was out of the box - or as the OP said