2128 === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows > I have a 48SX. In STAT mode I can create a matrix > and sum columns. Is there an easy way to add the rows? Sum columns _and_ rows of the matrix on stack level 1: << STOGS TOT RCLGS TRN STOGS TOT CLGS >> 'TOTRC' STO Like above, but include the sums in the matrix, as an additional row and column (like a spreadsheet): << TRN STOGS TOT GS+ RCLGS TRN STOGS TOT GS+ RCLGS CLGS >> 'TOTM' STO [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Sum columns _and_ rows of the matrix on stack level 1: > << STOGS TOT RCLGS TRN > STOGS TOT CLGS >> 'TOTRC' STO RCLGS works on my SX emulator, but I can't find the key anywhere in the menus. Do you have to type it in? Bill === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Sum columns and rows of the matrix on stack level 1: > > << STOGS TOT RCLGS TRN > Ê Ê STOGS TOT CLGS >> 'TOTRC' STO RCLGS works on my SX emulator, but I can't find the key anywhere iin the menus. Do yu have to type it in? Bill === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows Here are slightly more flexible G series programs, which do not use the statistics matrix (GSDAT) at all: @ Append column and/or row sums to a matrix or vector << DUP SIZE DUP SIZE GET 1 > @ Row sums { ->COL ->LIST DUP GSLIST + OBJ-> COL-> } IFT DUP SIZE DUP SIZE 1 > SWAP 1 GET 1 > AND @ Column sums { ->ROW ->LIST DUP GSLIST + OBJ-> ROW-> } IFT >> 'MSUM' STO @ Remove sums created by MSUM << DUP SIZE SIZE 1 > @ Column sums { DUP SIZE OBJ-> ROT 1 - 1 MAX ROT ROT ->LIST RDM } IFT DUP SIZE DUP SIZE GET DUP 1 > { COL- } IFT DROP >> 'MCUT' STO Note that only two or more rows (or columns) are summed by MSUM (or removed by MCUT) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows John H Meyers kirjoitti viestiss.8a:op.uq9rifqtnn735j@miu.edu... > Here are slightly more flexible G series programs, > which do not use the statistics matrix (GSDAT) at all: > > @ Append column and/or row sums to a matrix or vector > << DUP SIZE DUP SIZE GET 1 > @ Row sums > { ->COL ->LIST DUP GSLIST + OBJ-> COL-> } IFT > DUP SIZE DUP SIZE 1 > SWAP 1 GET 1 > AND @ Column sums > { ->ROW ->LIST DUP GSLIST + OBJ-> ROW-> } IFT >> 'MSUM' STO > > @ Remove sums created by MSUM > << DUP SIZE SIZE 1 > @ Column sums > { DUP SIZE OBJ-> ROT 1 - 1 MAX ROT ROT ->LIST RDM } IFT > DUP SIZE DUP SIZE GET DUP 1 > { COL- } IFT DROP >> 'MCUT' STO > > Note that only two or more rows (or columns) are summed by MSUM > (or removed by MCUT) > > [r->] [OFF] and the same without COL -commands, please? === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows <3rXxl.3523$_f7.2279@uutiset.elisa.fi> posting-account=7OS_CAoAAABr2aaw7eKrVJfoiJ8Rom3f AppleWebKit/528.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Safari/528.16,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Very very dumb question, but are these answers code for me to program my 48sx? If so, can you direct me how to add this code to my 48sx. I've never programed my 48sx. Any step by step instructions on how to add this code? thx === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows <3rXxl.3523$_f7.2279@uutiset.elisa.fi> posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Very very dumb question, but are these answers code for me to program > my 48sx? ÊIf so, can you direct me how to add this code to my 48sx. > I've never programed my 48sx. ÊAny step by step instructions on how to > add this code? > > thx There are no dumb questions. You could copy and paste the code into an EMU that you can get at hpcalc.org, perhaps Werner's HP 48SX for Emu48 1.0. To add the code to your 48 SX manually you need to store it in a variable you might name STATS. You start by typing in program delimeters which are the << >> symbols. Type in the code between these delimeters and when you are done press the ENTER key to place the code on the stack. Type in single quotes and then type in your variable name between those. Again press the ENTER key and finally the STO key to store the variable (program) into calculator memory. I think you need to find yourself a user's manual on the Internet that will give you step-by-step instruction on programming. I really wish someone with the time and resources would post how to programming videos on YouTube for all the neophytes out there. Best of luck to you and don't hesitate to post again if you need help. === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows <3rXxl.3523$_f7.2279@uutiset.elisa.fi> posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Very very dumb question, but are these answers code for me to program > my 48sx? ÊIf so, can you direct me how to add this code to my 48sx. > I've never programed my 48sx. ÊAny step by step instructions on how to > add this code? > > thx There are no dumb questions. You could copy and paste the code into an EMU that you can get at hpcalc.org, perhap's Werner's HP 48SX for Emu48 1.0. To add the code to your 48 SX manually you need to store it in a variable you might name STATS. You start by typing in program delimeters which are the << >> symbols. Type in the code between these delimeters and when you are done press the ENTER key to place the code on the stack. Type in single quotes and then type in your variable name between those. Again press the ENTER key and finally the STO key to store the variable (program) into calculator memory. I think you need to find yourself a user's manual on the Internet that will give you step-by-step instruction on programming. I really wish someone with the time and resources would post how to programming videos on YouTube for all the neophytes out there. Best of luck to you and don't hesitate to post again if you need help. === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows << STOGS etc. Where GS means the Big Sigma character (133 CHR) By the way, any other posted suggestions using ->ROW require a G model (not available on 48SX) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Any built in ones? I don't know of any built-in ones, but this will work to sum the rows of a matrix: << TRN ->ROW 2 SWAP START + NEXT >> Example: [[ 6 2 7 ] [ 9 3 4 ] [ 10 4 5 ]] -> [15. 16. 19.] If you want to keep the original matrix, add DUP at the beginning of the program. Bill === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows Le lundi 23 mars 2009, Bill Markwick avait .8ecrit : > << TRN ->ROW 2 SWAP > START + > NEXT > >> The following is shorter and probably a little bit faster: << TRN ->ROW ->LIST SigmaLIST >> This version, as yours, won't work if the original matrix has only one column. But your version possibly gives a wrong result, for example when it is run with these two objects on stack: [ 1 ] [[ 0 ]] === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows TRN transposes your SigmaDAT matrix [or other matrices] (called in the stack and stored back) Then your SUM of X an Y will be for rows cylurian kirjoitti On Mar 23, 12:50 am, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > cylurian kirjoitti > > > Hello everyone. I have a 48SX. In STAT mode I can create a matrix > > and sum columns. Is there an easy way to add the rows? > > > transpose the matrix > a small program perhaps? Any built in ones? === Subject: Re: Minor bug in HP 40GS new ROM 2.20 posting-account=gTFFigoAAACzbwXpLCiwft1zWmJ4AhDR Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > > > Hi all, > > > Just testing, I found this minor bug : when keeping ALPHA pressed downn > > and typing the characters V E R S I O N, you actually get V E R S I , N. > > To get a proper O, you need to release and press ALPHA again, this only > > for this letter O. > > > Strangly, this bug already existed in the initial ROM. It was fixed in a > > non-official ROM that someone that we all miss here today (no name :-) > > pushed me. > > > Even if this is not that important, now that we see with great pleasure > > that HP is back to support actively its calculators with new ROMs (40gs > > Ê and 50g), it would be great to have this minor bug fixed as well. > > > Herve > > Present o HP 38G too. Do you remember the version that had it fixed? === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=gTFFigoAAACzbwXpLCiwft1zWmJ4AhDR Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Mar 15, 7:20Êpm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > Nice problem solving! > So I'll wait for the next ROM to be released > where this bug is fixed > It should be easy to locate now > that you have found that flag -40 is involved > VPN > PS: Since your comments are always so perfect > you should be a beta-tester > => one more pair of eyes to find those nasty bugs that creep in... > > Jacob Wall kirjoitti > > > > with your installations, and are not entering each time 2. STO to > > > store a library to Port 2. Have you or anyone else tried installing > > > the new EqnLib.lib file using the method I was using? > > > Ok. I did get it to hang. The program to install it works just fine > > for me whether run from the SD card or in the calculator, but a manual > > STO on the stack does seem to hang. However, only on one of my units > > (the empty one). The others that have about 500kb in port 2 had no > > problem. Strange. > > > TW > > Hey, I believe I have found the problem. ÊI completely wiped out my 49G > +, factory settings, except RPN mode set and the 2. STO worked!!!! > > So I went down the list of flags, matching it to my 50g, and the > problem seems to be dependent on Flag 40 Show Clock, ÊIf flag 40 is > set, my calculators hang everytime, however when I clear flag 40, no > problems. ÊWeird. > > Jacob HP should have a fix out relatively soon. The problem is related to interrupts. It's best not to store anything in port 2 right now unless you're willing to have it corrupt everything in that port. If you live on the edge, you're less likely to hit the problem if you've just done a garbage collection (doing MEM will force garbage collection) and only store one thing into port 2 between garbage collections. One option would be to store everything you need into port 2 before loading 2.14. If you've corrupted your port 2 you can fix it by installing this ROM. ftp://ftp-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/xcas/hpcas/hp49g.zip It will reset your port 2. === Subject: Re: StopWatch-C posting-account=QSfVcQoAAADkgn5Et4hWcvOa13b-lJy1 Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > I found the problem. My MLP is using TESTMSG + SW_Image + SW_ETime > since there never was a StopWatch program for the 49G. > > This has been fixed in the upcoming version 1.81 of the MLP, so if you > want to use StopWatch-C and the MLP please upgrade to version 1.81 of > the MLP. > > PSP+ and PALL work fine if you do not set a baud rate higher than > 38400. But IIRC there is no printer that supports the 50G at a baud > rate of 38400 or higher. > > Also a new version of CompressionAid is available which allows to > choose between BZ49 and BZ2. > > StopWatch-C and CompressionAid are free programs, the MLP is not free > as this is a commercial program. > > All updates are available on my site. > > Andreashttp://www.software49g.gmxhome.de Where or how do you get the split on the program ? Should I assign the function to a key on the board? instruments. Daniel === Subject: Re: StopWatch-C posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Where or how do you get the split on the program ? Should I > assign the function to a key on the board? Press [ENTER] to store a split. The number of allowed splits is shown by the left uppermost number (25 by default). Any other key will temporarily halt the display but the SW is running and the new time will be shown as soon as you release the key. This is a port of the original Stopwatch (as close as possible), so did you check the documentation ? A split means that you store a interim time, you can have as many splits as memory allows. For example, the following command sequence creates a SWDAT that permits storage of 100 splits and provides a delay of 0.5 seconds between display of stored splits. 0 { 100 2 } 0 CON 0.5 3 ->LIST 'SWDAT STO Also check the commands [VSP+] [VSP-] [VALL]. The documentation is included in the *zip file on my site or take the one from www.hpcalc.org. > instruments. Good to know, seems like the timing of the Saturnator is working well. Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: StopWatch-C posting-account=QSfVcQoAAADkgn5Et4hWcvOa13b-lJy1 Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > Ê> Where or how do you get the split on the program ? Should I > Ê> assign the function to a key on the board? > Press [ENTER] to store a split. The number of allowed splits is shown > by the left uppermost number (25 by default). Any other key will > temporarily halt the display but the SW is running and the new time > will be shown as soon as you release the key. > > This is a port of the original Stopwatch (as close as possible), so > did you check the documentation ? A split means that you store a > interim time, you can have as many splits as memory allows. > > For example, the following command sequence creates a SWDAT that > permits > storage of 100 splits and provides a delay of 0.5 seconds between > display of > stored splits. > > Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê0 Ê{ 100 2 } Ê0 ÊCON Ê0.5 Ê3 Ê->LIST Ê'SWDAT ÊSTO > > Also check the commands [VSP+] [VSP-] [VALL]. > > The documentation is included in the *zip file on my site or take the > one fromwww.hpcalc.org. > > Ê> instruments. > Good to know, seems like the timing of the Saturnator is working well. > > Andreashttp://www.software49g.gmxhome.de field. Daniel === Subject: MERGE command in 50G posting-account=T6_JoAoAAAD5X1NpIb7ZcQrmFCd8Otqa Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) 1 with the rest of main memory user (as in hp48gx)? What is the syntax? I made some attempts, but got only Bad Argument Type :-) Valfisio. === Subject: Re: MERGE command in 50G posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > 1 with the rest of main memory user (as in hp48gx)? What is the > syntax? > > I made some attempts, but got only > Bad Argument Type :-) > > > Valfisio. 49 series. The internal SysRPL code for MERGE command is: :: CK1&Dispatch ; This is equivalent to NOP (No operation). - Gaak - === Subject: Re: MERGE command in 50G > 49 series. > The internal SysRPL code for MERGE command is > :: CK1&Dispatch ; And FREE is :: CK2&Dispatch ; > This is equivalent to NOP (No operation) No operation suggests doing nothing, whereas the above always produces an error, either Bad Argument Type or Too Few Arguments True no operation (with valid arguments being dropped, similar to normal operation) would be more like: :: CK1&Dispatch ONE DROP ; (slot number on level 1) :: CK2&Dispatch ONE 2DROP ; (slot number on level 1) However, since the 49/50 series does not support the operations at all, it is reasonable enough to have these commands always result in an error. This would as well have been suitable for MERGE1 and FREE1 (the GX versions of the original SX commands, because IIRC the SX however, the latter set of commands simply no longer exists, and if compiled will become unevaluated variable names. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: MERGE command in 50G I forgot to mention that the Advanced Users Reference (AUR) for 49G+/50G includes MERGE and FREE (but not MERGE1 and FREE1), saying for each: Do not use this command, Of course, these are really carry-overs from HP48SX (the 48GX also accepted them), while MERGE1 and FREE1 (created for 48GX) simply got jettisoned. Just think of the several bytes' ROM space that could have been saved by also jettisoning MERGE and FREE, or was there some thought that they might have been used, the way RULES was kept in the 48GX, but was then no longer needed, at which time it was commandeered to serve as an Easter Egg? Well, get those eggs painted, and ready to roll for Easter. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: MERGE command in 50G > It is possible (in hp50g) use the MERGE command > (as in hp48gx)? What is the syntax? > I made some attempts, but got only Bad Argument Type :-) Up to version 2.10: The original MERGE and FREE commands always error; MERGE1 and FREE1 commands were removed from internal library 171 (containing the original G series additional commands) The maximum user memory for HP48GX is 256K bytes, To do a small calculation, if the original 49G were able to merge its 256K which would be 1024K in addressable half-bytes, which would use up all 20-bit internal addresses (for Saturn CPU), leaving no room to map any of ROM into the address space, sort of like a computer with the entire hard disk free, but no operating system. Insert an SD card, however, into HP49G+/50G for as much Port 3 storage as you want :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: MERGE command in 50G you can't if you want/need more, you have to use C language Valfisio kirjoitti > > 1 with the rest of main memory user (as in hp48gx)? What is the > syntax? > > I made some attempts, but got only > Bad Argument Type :-) > > > Valfisio. === Subject: hp4950v214-2 http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=7097 === Subject: Re: hp4950v214-2 posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Plain old numeric results are still incorrectly tied to the flags meant to exclusively select the size of Textbook Equation stack display size, independently of otherwise generic numbers, symbols, etc. stack display size. === Subject: Re: hp4950v214-2 schlie kirjoitti > Plain old numeric results are still incorrectly tied to the flags > meant to exclusively select the size of Textbook Equation stack > display size, independently of otherwise generic numbers, symbols, > etc. stack display size. > Enough is enough - to kill-file you go... === Subject: Re: hp4950v214-2 posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Plain old numeric results are still incorrectly tied to the flags > meant to exclusively select the size of Textbook Equation stack > display size, independently of otherwise generic numbers, symbols, > etc. stack display size. They've been that way since the 49G unless you can provide a ROM number where they weren't. Seems like it is working as designed, you just think it should be something different. TW === Subject: Re: hp4950v214-2 posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > Plain old numeric results are still incorrectly tied to the flags > > meant to exclusively select the size of Textbook Equation stack > > display size, independently of otherwise generic numbers, symbols, > > etc. stack display size. > > They've been that way since the 49G unless you can provide a ROM > number where they weren't. Seems like it is working as designed, you > just think it should be something different. > > TW Yes, you're correct; I could have sworn otherwise, until double checking the older roms, very sorry. (please however consider it a feature request if possible) === Subject: Re: Where is ROM 2.14 posting-account=j9q-fwoAAABZyB2YHBeJmSUXbj-uMcR7 Gecko/2008120121 Firefox/3.0.5 FirePHP/0.2.4,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > Went looking for the2.14on HPCalc but its not in the list of roms and > > searching for2.14doesn't find it. > > Is theROMremoved? > > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Bill Graves Ê RKBA! > > bgra...@ix.netcom.com > > The description has been changed, now says ROM2.14 BETA :-(http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=7097 > > - Gaak - But my XV vars stay clearing after ON+C!!!! === Subject: New Compression engine : R.O.C posting-account=eF2f0AoAAAB2spBRiZOs91ItDKLGDCIk Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello I wish to introduce to HP user community a new compression engine designed for everyday usage, and called R.O.C, for Reduced Offset Compressor. In contrast to all existing compressors on HP4x, R.O.C does not belong to the generic good old LZ77 family, but use a rather more modern technique named ROLZ. To keep it simple, rather than using a sliding window methodology, ROLZ use a list of pointers, referenced through context guessing. Results are quite starkling, as R.O.C is nearly five times faster than BZ, while at the same time using very little memory (2KB, to be compared with 11KB for BZ). Both properties make it an interesting choice for regular usage and older systems with limited memory, such as HP48. You may try it for yourself and provide your feedback by downloading the file in the zip package : http://img20.xooimage.com/files/b/c/9/roc-cb9d82.zip or going to the forum : http://phantasie.tonempire.net/utilitaires-f7/roc-compression-software-t81.h tm#126 or http://HPUtils.Webhop.org Hope this can help === Subject: Re: New Compression engine : R.O.C > R.O.C does not belong to the generic good old LZ77 family, > but use a rather more modern technique named ROLZ. Found some remarks (and benchmarks) on ROLZ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROLZ http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about178508.html http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Comp/comp.compression/2007-08/msg000 32.html http://www.cs.fit.edu/~mmahoney/compression/text.html http://www.cs.fit.edu/~mmahoney/compression/uiq/ -[ ]- === Subject: Re: New Compression engine : R.O.C posting-account=eF2f0AoAAAB2spBRiZOs91ItDKLGDCIk Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > Well, John, it's true that ROLZ is not very well documented over internet. I think i got the main ideas while reading through a forum dedicated to compression, encode.ru But be warned that information is not sorted, this is just a forum for experts. A good understanding of compression basis is recommended to follow its content. To be fair, i was already toying with these ideas in my mind, so this forum mostly helped me to understand that ROLZ was the proper family name for this technique, and confirmed its efficiency expectations. It happens that i also discovered a pretty nice site two days ago this is the LZRW serie from Dr Ross Williams. The last version, LZRW4, which is only described (not implemented) can be considered an early version to ROLZ, or a very close ancestor. What's interesting, the author clearly decribes the progression of his thinking from each version to its successor, which makes it an easy and enlightning reading. You'll find it there : http://www.ross.net/compression/ === Subject: Re: New Compression engine : R.O.C > You'll find it there : > http://www.ross.net/compression/ Cool -- Tales from the Crypt Everything there is dated 1997, so maybe it's being maintained from the other side :) http://www.warnervideo.com/talesfromthecryptdvd/card.html http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096708/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales from the Crypt (TV series) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales from the Cryptkeeper http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCYryvsdiBY http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny Elfman On a lighter note: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqog63KOANc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aBaX9GPSaQ (Not my software - JYA) -[ ]- === Subject: Re: New Compression engine : R.O.C Yann kirjoitti > Hello > > I wish to introduce to HP user community a new compression engine > designed for everyday usage, and called R.O.C, for Reduced Offset > Compressor. > > In contrast to all existing compressors on HP4x, R.O.C does not belong > to the generic good old LZ77 family, but use a rather more modern > technique named ROLZ. > To keep it simple, rather than using a sliding window methodology, > ROLZ use a list of pointers, referenced through context guessing. > > Results are quite starkling, as R.O.C is nearly five times faster than > BZ, while at the same time using very little memory (2KB, to be > compared with 11KB for BZ). > > Both properties make it an interesting choice for regular usage and > older systems with limited memory, such as HP48. > > You may try it for yourself and provide your feedback by downloading > the file in the zip package : > http://img20.xooimage.com/files/b/c/9/roc-cb9d82.zip > > or going to the forum : > http://phantasie.tonempire.net/utilitaires-f7/roc-compression-software-t81.ht m#126 > or > http://HPUtils.Webhop.org I say it should evolve one year and then incorporated into the ROM and used all over the system - free to HP but we all would know where it originated === Subject: [50g] Terrible *BUG* This will surely kill your brains so don't read this! Please do NOT scroll down unless you are a member of the original HP ACO v'ger team The HELP text of QXA: QXA(X^2+2X*Y,[X,Y]) missing * => QXA(X^2+2*X*Y,[X,Y]) === Subject: Re: Terrible *BUG* posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > This will surely kill your brains so don't read this! > > Please do NOT scroll down > unless you are a member of the original HP ACO v'ger team All your bug are belong to us. :-b http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/A/all-your-base-are-belong-to-us.html > The HELP text of QXA: > QXA(X^2+2X*Y,[X,Y]) > missing * => > QXA(X^2+2*X*Y,[X,Y]) Interestingly, if the HELP screen expression is typed, as shown, into the EquationWriter and EVAL'd, or if ECHO'd from the HELP screen and EVAL'd, it gets the correct answer. Try this: TOOL NXT HELP ALPHA Q down-arrow ENTER ECHO EVAL --> the correct answer. An auspicious accident, to be sure. ;-) I personally find such typos in the HELP screens annoying. But there is hope! The 50g ROM is still in a state of flux, so it would be useful to collect all similar mistakes in the HELP screens and post them here for HP to see. I know that there are several error messages that are messed up, and those can be fixed too (maybe). Debugging follows the Law Of Rapidly Diminishing Yield (LORDY!), but until they stop debugging the 50g entirely, maybe we can get all the typos and brainos and Frenglishisms fixed. http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/B/braino.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenglish -Joe- === Subject: Re: Terrible *BUG* Joe Horn kirjoitti >> This will surely kill your brains so don't read this! >> >> Please do NOT scroll down >> unless you are a member of the original HP ACO v'ger team > > All your bug are belong to us. :-b > http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/A/all-your-base-are-belong-to-us.html > >> The HELP text of QXA: >> QXA(X^2+2X*Y,[X,Y]) >> missing * => >> QXA(X^2+2*X*Y,[X,Y]) > > Interestingly, if the HELP screen expression is typed, as shown, into > the EquationWriter and EVAL'd, or if ECHO'd from the HELP screen and > EVAL'd, it gets the correct answer. Try this: > > TOOL NXT HELP > ALPHA Q down-arrow ENTER > ECHO EVAL > --> the correct answer. EVAL is not needed... Also as Tim pointed out the bug itself it not causing anything > An auspicious accident, to be sure. ;-) > I personally find such typos in the HELP screens annoying. But there > is hope! The 50g ROM is still in a state of flux, so it would be > useful to collect all similar mistakes in the HELP screens and post > them here for HP to see. I know that there are several error messages > that are messed up, and those can be fixed too (maybe). Debugging > follows the Law Of Rapidly Diminishing Yield (LORDY!), but until they > stop debugging the 50g entirely, maybe we can get all the typos and > brainos and Frenglishisms fixed. Maybe not all Frenglishisms otherwise PCAR should be PCHAR and DROITE a straight STRAIGHT > http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/B/braino.html > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenglish > > -Joe- Well, there seems to be some development but it's dictated by commercialism (Smart sales of Stream) not by standards of the Hewlett and Packard so the bugs will remain forever... === Subject: Re: Terrible *BUG* posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b3) Gecko/20090305 Firefox/3.1b3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Mar 27, 3:29Êam, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > This will surely kill your brains so don't read this! > QXA(X^2+2*X*Y,[X,Y]) How is this such a horrible amazing bug? The parser puts the * in automatically, doesn't it? TW === Subject: Re: Terrible *BUG* sarcasm? or maybe the bug just destroyed that past of your brain? ;-) kirjoitti On Mar 27, 3:29 am, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > This will surely kill your brains so don't read this! > QXA(X^2+2*X*Y,[X,Y]) How is this such a horrible amazing bug? The parser puts the * in automatically, doesn't it? TW === Subject: USAG requires arguments? posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) USAG v1.6 that contains no argument requirement :-D More details: http://blog.Gaak.org/ Download site: http://hp.Gaak.org/ Enjoy it! - Gaak - === Subject: [50g] input of complex number Hello all! I was trying to input a complex number in this form: (123, (angle)30) where (angle) is 'ALPHA+Right+6' and it works allright. But when I try to use a variable I always get 'Invalid Syntax'. How can I use variables for the absolute value and the argument of a complex number? Artur === Subject: Re: input of complex number InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > How can I use variables for the absolute value and the argument of a > complex number? You can do that if you don't mind some algebraic goings-on. Uncheck flag 27, select polar mode, and put single quotes around the round brackets to make it an expression and it works like this, where <) is the angle symbol: '(X,<)Y)' ENTER -> (X*COS(Y), X*SIN(Y)) Now if you store 3 as 'X' and 4 as 'Y' and press EVAL, it displays (3.0000, <)4.0000). The single quotes are still there but don't appear on the stack. I used FIX 4 to prevent a whole bunch of nines. :-) Bill === Subject: Re: input of complex number In this case I would use '(R,<) Q)' @ where Q is ALPHA right-shit T but after the conversion you loose <) anyway and revert back to a complex pair display :-/ ______________________________________________________ Bill Markwick kirjoitti > > How can I use variables for the absolute value and the argument of a > complex number? You can do that if you don't mind some algebraic goings-on. Uncheck flag 27, select polar mode, and put single quotes around the round brackets to make it an expression and it works like this, where <) is the angle symbol: '(X,<)Y)' ENTER -> (X*COS(Y), X*SIN(Y)) Now if you store 3 as 'X' and 4 as 'Y' and press EVAL, it displays (3.0000, <)4.0000). The single quotes are still there but don't appear on the stack. I used FIX 4 to prevent a whole bunch of nines. :-) Bill === Subject: Re: [50g] input of complex number Artur kirjoitti viestiss.8a:49d22b30$0$2773$a729d347@news.telepac.pt... > Hello all! > > I was trying to input a complex number in this form: > > (123, (angle)30) > > where (angle) is 'ALPHA+Right+6' and it works allright. > > But when I try to use a variable I always get 'Invalid Syntax'. > > How can I use variables for the absolute value and the argument of a > complex number? > > > Artur You can't [at least not vector mode with angle] BUT algebraic 'X+Y*i' will show as (X,Y) if you clear the flag -27 CF or uncheck [MODE] |FLAGS| _ 27 'X+Yxi' -> '(X,Y)' otherwise: happy 1st of April! === Subject: Re: HP 50g Emulator on Vista? posting-account=l6utMQoAAAAPaT-KNwK5JkWNrR4AYJ-3 GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > If so what do you recommend I download? > > Go to debug4x.com, download it, install it, and then you have > emulators for for the 48GX through the 50g, all installed > automatically. You also have the best IDE for said calculators as well > if you get into that at some point. > > TW I tried the emulator for the 50g, and while it is very nice(!), it displays an annoying problem: Try edit a large program, which spans more than the 7 lines on the display, and then take the cursor to the top line. Lines below that will appear garbled. Moving the cursor down restores the correct text, but every time you move the cursor up again, the same thing happens. Anyway, it is not a big deal, but I thought if I point it out, perhaps it could get fixed (!?) sometime. === Subject: Re: HP 50g Emulator on Vista? InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > I tried the emulator for the 50g, and while it is very nice(!), it > displays an annoying problem: > > Try edit a large program, which spans more than the 7 lines on the > display, and then take the cursor to the top line. ÊLines below that > will appear garbled. ÊMoving the cursor down restores the correct > text, but every time you move the cursor up again, the same thing > happens. > > Anyway, it is not a big deal, but I thought if I point it out, perhaps > it could get fixed (!?) sometime. For sure! I think this has plagued Emu since the beginning. It's done it on all the PCs I've tried - they've had different screen resolutions but all had the garbling when cursoring up. It'd be great to get that resolved. Bill === Subject: Re: HP 50g Emulator on Vista? posting-account=zYTuBQoAAAC_bXzGjGVT5rxv8bOnpefP rv:1.9.0.8) Gecko/2009032608 Firefox/3.0.8,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > > > I tried the emulator for the 50g, and while it is very nice(!), it > > displays an annoying problem: > > > Try edit a large program, which spans more than the 7 lines on the > > display, and then take the cursor to the top line. ÊLines below that > > will appear garbled. ÊMoving the cursor down restores the correct > > text, but every time you move the cursor up again, the same thing > > happens. > > > Anyway, it is not a big deal, but I thought if I point it out, perhaps > > it could get fixed (!?) sometime. > > For sure! ÊI think this has plagued Emu since the beginning. ÊIt's > done it on all the PCs I've tried - they've had different screen > resolutions but all had the garbling when cursoring up. ÊIt'd be great > to get that resolved. > > Bill I've switch to Mac and use a different emulator, but IIRC, to fix that problem do the following: File/Settings/Check Enable Virtual LCD Delay I just tested it under Wine and without that checked I get screen artifacts, and checked no problem. === Subject: Re: HP 50g Emulator on Vista? posting-account=l6utMQoAAAAPaT-KNwK5JkWNrR4AYJ-3 Gecko/2009032609 Firefox/3.0.8,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > > > > > I tried the emulator for the 50g, and while it is very nice(!), it > > > displays an annoying problem: > > > > Try edit a large program, which spans more than the 7 lines on the > > > display, and then take the cursor to the top line. ÊLines below that > > > will appear garbled. ÊMoving the cursor down restores the correct > > > text, but every time you move the cursor up again, the same thing > > > happens. > > > > Anyway, it is not a big deal, but I thought if I point it out, perhaps > > > it could get fixed (!?) sometime. > > > For sure! ÊI think this has plagued Emu since the beginning. ÊIt's > > done it on all the PCs I've tried - they've had different screen > > resolutions but all had the garbling when cursoring up. ÊIt'd be great > > to get that resolved. > > > Bill > > I've switch to Mac and use a different emulator, but IIRC, to fix that > problem do the following: > > File/Settings/Check Enable Virtual LCD Delay > > I just tested it under Wine and without that checked I get screen > artifacts, and checked no problem. === Subject: Re: HP 40GS - New ROM 2.20 <49d1ff10$0$29873$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au> <2ftAl.1809$xx4.1727@uutiset.elisa.fi> posting-account=nKQXlgkAAABFcwCQitpPqM7oKmh-_khh Gecko/2009032609 Firefox/3.0.8,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Mar 31, 11:23Êam, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > comp.sys.hp48 kirjoitti > viestiss.8a:49d1ff10$0$29873$5a62a...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au... > > >> First ever ROM update available at hpcalc.org, apparently only > >> available throughhttp://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=7099 > > > Is there nowhere on the HP site that lists precisely what the update > > consists of?? > > docs are with the download... Here is the readme.txt: DescriptionÊ This package contains the latest version of the HP 40GS ROM (v2.20). Note: In order to upgrade your calculator, you must have the HP39GS/ 40GS connectivity kit and the HP39GS/40GS USB drivers installed on your PC. To install the new ROM: 1. Download the package from the Hewlett-Packard web site. (http:// hp.com/calculators/) 2. Unzip the package in a directory. 3. Ensure that you have good battery in the calculator. There is only 1 method to install the ROM: 1) Using the HP39GS/40G connectivity kit Using the HP39GS/40GS connectivity kit 1. Start the connectivity kit. Note that the connectivity kit and the drivers must have been installed for ROM updates. 2. In the connectivity kit, select HPx9G+ in the 'Connect using' pull down menu. If this option is not available, turn on your calculator, unplug and replug the USB cable. If HPx9G+ is still not available, check all connections and that the drivers are correctly installed. 4. On the connectivity kit, select the file: hp40gs v2.20.bin that was in the zip archive. 5. Follow the instruction given by the connectivity kit. 6. A download dialog box should appear monitoring the download process. This should take around 1 minute. 7. When the download is finish (the calculator displays: Update Finish, waiting for reset), press the reset button, remove and then replace a single battery, and your calculator has been upgraded. Doesn't say anything about what it does. === Subject: Re: HP 40GS - New ROM 2.20 mjc kirjoitti On Mar 31, 11:23 am, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > comp.sys.hp48 kirjoitti > viestiss.8a:49d1ff10$0$29873$5a62a...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au... > > >> First ever ROM update available at hpcalc.org, apparently only > >> available throughhttp://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=7099 > > > Is there nowhere on the HP site that lists precisely what the update > > consists of?? > > docs are with the download... Here is the readme.txt: X Doesn't say anything about what it does. __________________________________ 50g ROM says something... APPS StreamSmart <--- the new thing! Maybe it's the same with 40gs === Subject: HP50 keyboard on 49g+ posting-account=F9rQ3QoAAACk3_aKypr6ebaoy8zdQbJ3 AppleWebKit/525.19 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/1.0.154.48 Safari/525.19,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) My old 49g+ has finally started to get some key loose so it is time to replace it. A friend of mine has a dead 50g, I have suggested all the tips I found in this group to revive it by to no avail. I was wondering if it would be possible to replace the 49g+'s keyboard with the keyboard from my friend's 50g Any thoughts? Luis === Subject: Re: HP50 keyboard on 49g+ posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I was wondering if it would be possible to replace the 49g+'s keyboard > with the keyboard from my friend's 50g > Any thoughts? > > > Luis Replace plastic keys? Possible. Replace metal domes? Not possible. The metal domes are on the other separated. See the end of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKt-BIbti0k [The 49g+ and 50g are identical.] S.C. === Subject: Re: HP50 keyboard on 49g+ Horszowski kirjoitti > My old 49g+ has finally started to get some key loose so it is time to > replace it. > A friend of mine has a dead 50g, I have suggested all the tips I found > in this group to revive it by to no avail. > > I was wondering if it would be possible to replace the 49g+'s keyboard > with the keyboard from my friend's 50g > Any thoughts? > > > Luis Sounds excellent idea! Tell us how it worked remember to take photos! === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 >> One of my students has the HP 65 scientific calculator. æAs two >> examples, could you tell me how to find seven factorial and twenty >> choose nine on this calculator? >> >> Mike > > Factorial is on the keyboard: press the blue [g] shift, then 3. > > seven factorial: press 7 [g] 3 --> 5040. > > twenty choose nine: That's ambiguous. If the order of the choices > matters, then it's called permutations. A common notation for > permutations of n things taken r at a time is nPr. The formula for > nPr is n!/(n-r)! Therefore on the HP-65 you'd press: 20 [g] 3 20 > ENTER 9 - [g] 3 [divide] --> 6.09493248 x 10^10. > > If the order of the choices doesn't matter, then it's called > combinations. A common notation for combinations of n things taken > r at a time is nCr. The formula for nCr is n!/((n-r)!r!). Therefore > on the HP-65 you'd press: 20 [g] 3 20 ENTER 9 - [g] 3 9 [g] 3 > [multiply] [divide] --> 167960. > > Hope that helps! One thing about this method is that it causes overflows for moderately large values of n, even when nCr is fairly small. Here's a method that will not overflow as long as nCr doesn't exceed the calculator range (you could write a program to do this): 1. replace r by the minimum of r and (n-r) 2. initialize the answer to one 3. perform the following for k = 1 to r: a. conceptually form the fraction (n-k+1)/k b. reduce the fraction to lowest terms: p/q. You do this by calculating the GCD of the numerator and denominator and dividing each of these quantities by that GCD. c. divide the answer by q--the result is guaranteed to be an integer d. multiply the answer by p 4. return the answer Here's how this works for 20C9: The answer is: 1*(20/1)*(19/2)*(18/3)*(17/4)*(16/5)*(15/6)*(14/7)*(13/8)*(12/9) = 1*(20)*(19/2)*(6)*(17/4)*(16/5)*(5/2)*(2)*(13/8)*(4/3) = 1*20/2*19*6/4*17/5*16/2*5*2/8*13/3*4 = 167960 Note that the intermediate values of the answer are always smaller than its final value. This is also true for all other integral values of n and r. Scott -- Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu This isn't flying. This is falling, with style. -- Buzz Lightyear === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > ... you could write a program to do this: > ... > 1*(20)*(19/2)*(6)*(17/4)*(16/5)*(5/2)*(2)*(13/8)*(4/3) = > 1*20/2*19*6/4*17/5*16/2*5*2/8*13/3*4 = > 167960 > > Note that the intermediate values of the answer are always smaller > than its final value. æThis is also true for all other integral values > of n and r. Cool! However, I'd be amazed if the HP-65 Statistics Pac uses this method in its combinations & permutations program, since the denominators mathemagically migrate forward from your first expression above to the second. Mathematically, they're equivalent of course, but algorithmically they are not. How did those denominators know where best to move forward to? The GCD step didn't do it. (If I misunderstood you, please slap me upside the head). A compromise that I can see is to skip the GCD step entirely (which would save code and runtime), and avoid fractions entirely (which would avoid roundoff errors), by removing all of the parentheses from the first expression and then executing it directly, left to right. This *will* traverse intermediate values larger than the final answer, but not terribly much larger (well, nowhere near as bad as using the definition in my earlier posting!), and it's doable in the meager program space of the HP-65. === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 Joe Horn meinte > >> ... you could write a program to do this: >> ... >> 1*(20)*(19/2)*(6)*(17/4)*(16/5)*(5/2)*(2)*(13/8)*(4/3) = >> 1*20/2*19*6/4*17/5*16/2*5*2/8*13/3*4 = >> 167960 >> >> Note that the intermediate values of the answer are always smaller >> than its final value. æThis is also true for all other integral values >> of n and r. > >Cool! However, I'd be amazed if the HP-65 Statistics Pac uses this >method in its combinations & permutations program, since the >denominators mathemagically migrate forward from your first expression >above to the second. Mathematically, they're equivalent of course, but >algorithmically they are not. How did those denominators know where >best to move forward to? The GCD step didn't do it. (If I >misunderstood you, please slap me upside the head). I think this could be done easily in the loop, which is required anyway. Here is some pseudo code: Fkt C(n,r) r:= min(r,n-r) C:=1 For x=1 to r do m:=n/GCD(n,x) ; resultung multiplier d:=x/GCD(n,x) ; resulting denominator (could be 1) C:=C/d*m ; magically divide first, then multiply :-) n:=n-1 next x end Fkt(C) >A compromise that I can see is to skip the GCD step entirely (which >would save code and runtime), and avoid fractions entirely (which >would avoid roundoff errors), by removing all of the parentheses from >the first expression and then executing it directly, left to right. >This *will* traverse intermediate values larger than the final answer, >but not terribly much larger (well, nowhere near as bad as using the >definition in my earlier posting!), and it's doable in the meager >program space of the HP-65. always simply divide first and multiply afterwards. There will be of course occasional decimal fractions. But they should never be so large as not being finally correctly rounded to 0, because at least the next multiplication in the sequence will bring the result _very_ close to an integer. Consequently any intermediate results will also not exceed the final result. Pseudo Code Fkt C(n,r) r:=min(r,r-n) C:=1 For x=1 to r do C:=C/x*n n:=n-1 next x round (C,0) end Fkt(C) I hope not having overlooked the obvious :-) G.9fnter === Subject: Re: Lithium ion 50g posting-account=zwF5mgoAAABtN7MLMYmZfSdAoZ2In_RC rv:1.9.0.7) Gecko/2009021906 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Contrary to the author, I consider devices with standard batteries are > more convenient, since standard batteries are always available > everywhere. Aye. When I added a lithium polymer to my 49g+, I kept the battery bay intact and added a switch to allow the use of standard AAAs on the fly. You can see what I did on my page: -Jonathan === Subject: Re: Lithium ion 50g >About a year ago, somebody made a post to this group about modifying their >calculator to use a lithium ion battery. Yes, that was me. And I had to charge it last month. >I see that someone else has done the same with the 50g, but this time posted >a bunch of nice photos and detailed instructions. Pah! I dont cut an ugly hole in my SX.... Olaf === Subject: Re: Lithium ion 50g posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > You can go easily through many 4 hour long exams with a fresh low self- > discharge AAA NiMH package. Notice low self-discharge, normal NiMH > probably wonÇt make it due to high self-discharge rates. > Plus, who wouldnÇt check battery status prior to an exam? > > Contrary to the author, I consider devices with standard batteries are > more convenient, since standard batteries are always available > everywhere. I totally agree. Standard batteries will be available in the future (or at least be much more accessible than custom Lithium cells). They are also widely available no matter where you are, so you can buy a replacement set of batteries nearly anywhere if need be. For important exams, either (a) check battery status of the NiMH cells (b) charge NiMH cells the night before (c) invest in 4 alkaline cells that you know are fully charged Or, do all three and use the alkalines as a backup. S.C. === Subject: Re: Lithium ion 50g InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > a post to this group about modifying their calculator to use a lithium ion battery. I guess the hobbyist felt warm and fuzzy when he got that hack to work, but would you really trust a battery company that advertises 12,000mAh when it's really (or maybe doubtfully) 1,400? You could cause some serious damage to the calc (if only cosmetic) trying to open it for the sake of a 40% improvement over 1,000mAh AAA cells. I use NiMH batteries in the calc, my photoflashes, flashlights, etc, and they're all normal types, not low-self-discharge. I've never noticed any problems. Besides, slipping in another set of batteries sure beats hacking the calc open again when the internal lithium cell dies. Bill === Subject: Re: Question About HP50g Keys? posting-account=_oCSzAoAAAB7yYuxA-qEbYywlmh1EFjt 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Feb 18, 11:39æpm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > it's all the old-school whiners > who caused the 49g+ keyboard disaster... ABSOLUTE RUBBISH! How did old-school whiners cause the keys of my 49g+ to start breaking even before I had to change the batteries even ONCE? No, it was clearly very poor quality keys that caused the problem. The HP 49g+ was pure junk, right from HP. I quit using mine long before the second set of batteries expired and it has several broken keys. The enter key being quite unusable (it has an equal chance of doing: nothin, a single keypress, or a double keypress). By comparison my HP 48GX has gone thru well over 50 battery changes before any keys broke (it now has 2 broken keys, but they keys still work just fine). And my old HP 48SX has gone thru more than 100 battery changes and still has no broken keys. === Subject: Re: Question About HP50g Keys? kirjoitti On Feb 18, 11:39 pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > it's all the old-school whiners > who caused the 49g+ keyboard disaster... ABSOLUTE RUBBISH! * nope: people whined about rubber keys to be rubbish so HP dumbest the most durable keyboard EVER for the 49g+ keys...read & think, don't stink... How did old-school whiners cause the keys of my 49g+ to start breaking even before I had to change the batteries even ONCE? No, it was clearly very poor quality keys that caused the problem. The HP 49g+ was pure junk, right from HP. I quit using mine long before the second set of batteries expired and it has several broken keys. The enter key being quite unusable (it has an equal chance of doing: nothin, a single keypress, or a double keypress). By comparison my HP 48GX has gone thru well over 50 battery changes before any keys broke (it now has 2 broken keys, but they keys still work just fine). And my old HP 48SX has gone thru more than 100 battery changes and still has no broken keys. === Subject: Newbie question re programming the HP35s I've had many programmable calculators over the years and have very recently bought an HP35s, my first HP/RPN calculator. I've been trying to write some VERY simple routines to get the hang of programming it, but with little success. As this is my first HP calculator I've been using it in algebraic entry mode, not RPN. I have two questions: 1. How do you finish entering a line of 'code' so that you can enter a fresh line? Pressing the expected ENTER key doesn't seem to do this. If, for example, I wish to multiply a number by 10, then how do I finish or end the line? In normal operation I type: number x 10 = answer When writing this in programming mode pressing ENTER at the end of the line doesn't work. 2. Is the display register preserved when you start a program? In other words can you assume the display number is immediately available and therefore start your program with arithmetical commands? For example, can the first line of a program be something like: x 10 [multiply the display by 10] This seems to produce a SYNTAX ERROR (possibly associated with query 1 above) These are very basic questions which I can't answer even after reading the manual many times and googling for hours! I've also read all the HP35s posts on this newsgroup but I'm still stuck! -- Mike === Subject: Transfer of HP48GX programs to HP 50g Cc: dgwilson@mit.edu posting-account=QXyDBwoAAADDJhayz16ZvcfyOEvjrv56 Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) My HP 48 GX has keys that have failed. It is loaded with priceless programs. Can one transfer these to the HP 50g by IR port? Or by other means? Dave Wilson === Subject: Re: Transfer of HP48GX programs to HP 50g > My HP 48 GX has keys that have failed. > It is loaded with priceless programs. > Can one transfer these to the HP 50g by IR port? > Or by other means? If IR transfer works at all, use Kermit in ascii mode only, and set HP50G to Approximate mode (to receive integer-valued reals as original real object type, rather than as new integer type, which occasionally matters to old programs); however, the Approximate mode issue can always be corrected later anyway (editing any program while in Approximate mode will change every integer to real, just by pressing Enter). If you can transfer one complete user memory backup to a computer (requires a serial port), then you could do everything else later, using an emulator on the computer. The Emu48 (Windows) emulator can even use a computer serial port as any emulated calculator's serial port, hence can act as a real calculator for calc-to-calc transfers or backups; it can also act as an HP50G, and can make backups which can in turn be stored on SD cards for transfer to a real HP50G. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Transfer of HP48GX programs to HP 50g Dave kirjoitti > My HP 48 GX has keys that have failed. It is loaded with priceless > programs. Can one transfer these to the HP 50g by IR port? Or by other > means? > > Dave Wilson UserRPL program: Transfer from 48 to PC as ASCII text Set your new 49-series calc to Approx Mode (48-mode) Transfer from PC to 49/50 as ASCII text SysRPL: You may try to transfer your source in PC using Debug4x Libraries, binaries, etc: forgettabouit search www.hpcalc.org 4 new 49-series version === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I've started a first try at editing your docs. I've added in some of John's and Dave's ideas as well. It's probably not exactly what you had in mind, but it's a start. I assume you're providing a hardware/software surveying package that includes an HP50G and its manual on a CD. No doubt this will be the first time most customers will have seen RPN. I'm not sure how to deal with the Alg/RPN issue. In fact, I'm not sure what they'll be doing with the HP50. How complicated will their math be? One screenshot is worth a thousand words and they're easy to do. Here's a sample: http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s103/bmarkwick/scrn4.gif Including a few of those would be nice. An appendix could contain elaborations on basic ideas, and so on. I'll keep at it, though this week is a tad busy. Bill === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation posting-account=9rwnLQoAAAC_FoizTwvxTD73niS5ww5R Gecko/2008092417 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I am working on some new-user documentation with the goal to reduce > initial frustration and get people to discover some of the best > features of the 50G with little effort. There are plenty of people > that have strong feelings on manuals around here. While I am not > making a complete new manual, I'd like this to be around a 20 page > follow this and learn enough that you feel good to do simple stuff > and know where to get more info and help. I am hoping to get some > good opinions on topics I have missed, and the general format I am > > Here is what I have for topics, and the general order it is being > presented in, I am trying to avoid getting into CAS and stuff until > near the very end as I feel that is what trips people up the most. > > 1.On and off > 2.Contrast > 3.Reboot and clear memory. > 4.Performing a ROM update.? (maybe stick at the end) > 5.Header > 6.Stack > 7.Menu [CapitalEth] function keys > 8.Indicators > 9.Set to approximate mode > 10.Simple math calculation. > 11.Storing variables. > 12.Enter an equation using the EQW. > 13.->NUM > 14.Copy and paste that into the N.SOLV > 15.Solve the equation. > 16.Open the plotter. > 17.Enter a simple equation. > 18.Plot it. > 19.Look at the table. > 20.Go home, show the Y= program > 21.Open the filer > 22.Look at all the stuff, delete it > 23. . . . insert more here > 24.CAS, APPROXIMATE/EXACT > 25.What cas topics are most important? I am going to cover resetting > the CAS, basic troubleshooting, > 26. Common problems (aka: stuff that people always ask, why is my SD > card smaller in the filer? etc) > 27. Where to get help. (here, hp's forum, manuals, etc) > > Here is what I have so far. Please feel free to destroy my bad writing > (i've done no editing, so this is rough) or suggest anything. :-) > > I will use LS and RS to mean left and right shift through the > silver arrows. * is multiply, / is divide. ^ is y^x > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Getting Stated - The basics > > 1.To begin, lets turn the unit ON. While ON, the ON key is also > screen. To use a menu, press the key directly beneath it. This menu > will change as you use the calculator. Press $RCL$ and notice the > command RCL() appears with a blinking cursor. The blinking cursor > indicates you have an editline. Now press ON(CANCEL). The editline is > 2.Notice how there is a white function, and an orange function on most > keys. There is also a yellow alpha character. Look at the orange > function above ON. Push RS-ON and the unit powers off. > 3.Turn it back on. Now hold down ON and press + repeatedly. The screen > will darken. You will now clearly see 6 indicator symbols above the > screen. The 3 on the left indicate that a shift or alpha is turned on. > Then the low battery indicator, then the ñbusyî annunciator, then the > ñcommunicationî annunciator. With ON held, press [CapitalEth] until the screen is > the contrast you prefer. > 4.If the 50G is non-responsive, press CANCEL a few times. If it > doesn't respond, you may reboot the machine by holding ON and pressing > C. When you release the ON key, it will reboot. This is called a > Release F, then A, then ON. After a beep, the screen will say, æñTry > to Recover Memoryî, with YES or NO on the menu. Press $NO$ (if nothing > happens, push another key, it will beep, and then $NO$) > 5.All future steps in this manual assume you have cleared your memory, > and have no extra programs installed. If you have not cleared memory > now, this guide may act slightly different. Please do so. > 6. Now that your 50G is ready to go, lets look at the screen. On the > top, you have the HEADER. This shows important information. æ(RAD XYZ > HEX R= 'X' æ æ æ æ æALG and so on) This means the calculator is in > RADIANS, CARTESIAN, HEX REAL EXACT, 'X' is the default variable, and > algebraic mode {HOME} means you are in the home directory. As we work, > keep track up top to see the changes. Don't worry what it all means > right now. > 7.The Main part of the screen is called the stack. This is where your > numbers and equations appear as you work. The bottom is the menu which > we have previously talked about > > Basic Math > > 8.The 50G is the most powerful graphing calculator in the world. This > may seem scary at first, but we can break it down into small tasks and > you'll quickly be on your way. > 9.To being, type 1+1 (notice the editline) and press ENTER. The > answer, 2 is returned. Now press UP twice to select 1+1. Press $EDIT$ > to open the equation writer. This allows you to write complex > equations very easily and see it exactly as on paper. With 1+1 > highlighted, press / 5. Notice how it is nicely shown. Press ENTER to > return the equation to the stack, then ENTER to evaluate. The answer > is 2/5. What is going on here? > 10.Notice up in the header the R=. This means that the calculator is > in EXACT mode. Keep your eye on that R=. Press and hold LS and press > ENTER. The R= will toggle to ~. Do it a few times and see how it > changes. Before the next step, leave it as R~. > 11.Now press LS-HIST(CMD). A choose box with your last 4 typed entries > is shown. With (1+1)/5 selected, press $OK$ and then ENTER. This time, > the answer is .4. This is what is meant by exact, or approximate. > Observe how the last entry now shows 1.+1./5. æThis is perfectly fine. > We will discuss more about this later. Press $CLEAR$. Your stack is > cleared. > > Using RPN > > 12.The 50G comes from a history of calculators designed for engineers > and mathematicians. As such, it have very powerful capabilities for > quickly solving, entering and working math problems. One of these > tools is RPN. > 13.RPN may sound tricky at first, but it will help you use the 50G > easier and save you lots of time while working problems. RPN's > greatest strength is that is lets you work out problems one small > piece at a time. You don't have to type everything into a long > equation and worry about parenthesis. > 14.Lets change into RPN mode. Press MODE and what is called an Input > form appears. These full screen forms are used for a variety of tasks. > On this screen, may basic settings are shown. Currently, algebraic is > selected. Press $CHOOS$ ans a choose box appears. Press DOWN, select > RPN, press ENTER. RPN is now selected. Choose boxes in input forms can > also be changed by press +/-. Press +/- a few times and note how it > toggles between RPN and Algebraic. With RPN selected, press ENTER to > leave the mode screen. > 15.Immediately, you will notice that the left side of the screen has > numbers from 1-7. Type 2 SPC 3 SPC 4 ENTER. æThe 3 numbers appear on > the stack. The number 2 is said to be on level 3 of the stack. > 16.Press ENTER again and notice how a copy is made of level 1 on the > stack. This is useful to allow you to save your previous work. Lets > now multiply 4*4. Since 4 is both level 1 and level 2, press *. The > result, 16 is placed on the stack and the other two numbers move down. > You now have 2 3 and 16. Let's calculate 16/3. However, the numbers > are in the wrong order. No problem, press RIGHT and they swap > positions. Now press / and 5.33 repeating appears. Lets square that by > pressing y^x. The final result, 40.317 appears. > 17.Now let's work a real problem: (I'll insert a nice real world > problem here - any suggestions on one?) > > (I am having most trouble with the RPN section, I don't want to much > deatil, but don't want to little either, some good examples would be > much appreciated) > > Working in Algebraic in RPN Mode > > 18.You may prefer working in algebraic mode. That is no problem. Press > ' and '' appears. You can now type in anything just as if you were in > algebraic mode (need a good example here). When you are done, press > ENTER and notice how your equation appears on the stack. Press ENTER > to duplicate it, and then RS-ENTER(->NUM) to return a final numerical > answer. > 19.Another option is to use the equation writer. Press RS-'(EQW) to > open the equation writer. Let's type in and solve a problem using the > pythagorean theorem. Type 14 ^ 2 RIGHT + 20 ^ 2 RIGHT RIGHT SQRT. You > now have the equation entered into the equation writer. Now press $EVAL > $ and then RS-HIST(UNDO). $EVAL$ evaluates what is currently > highlighted, and UNDO will undo the last thing you did. Now with the > whole equation highlighted, press RS-VAR(COPY). We will use this > later. Now press ENTER. Your equation is now on the stack. Press EVAL > to evaluate your problem. The hypotenuse is ~24.413. > > Using Equation Solvers > > 20. Let's say you have several problems to solve involving the > Pythagorean theorem from the last example. Rather than typing them all > it, wouldn't it be nice to solve any part of the formula in a simple > manner? The many built-in solving tools can help you do this. > 21.There are two major types of solvers on the 50g. Numeric and > symbolic. Let's examine a numeric solver right now. Press RS-7(N.SLV). > A choose box appears. Press 3 and note how the choose jumps to the > matching item. Press 1 to jump back to Solve Equation and press ENTER. > 22.A full screen solver appears. To begin, we must enter an equation > to solve. Rather than typing it all in at once, let's use the EQW > again. Press RS-'(EQW). Now let's paste in the formula we copied from > the last example by pressing LS-NXT(paste). The whole variable is > highlighted. Let's rewrite this to be A^2+b^2=c^2. Press LS-BKSP(DEL) > to remove the SQRT function. Now press $CURS$ and notice a cursor > appears. Use the arrow keys to move around the equation. As you move, > note how you can select individual items, or groups in the whole. Move > so the box surrounds only the 20 and press ENTER. > 23.Now press ALPHA-A and note how the 20 is replaced by A. Press UP UP > LEFT DOWN to highlight the 14. Press ALPHA-B to replace the 14 with a > B. Press UP UP then LS-RIGHT. The B^2 term moves over. Press LS-LEFT > and it moves back. Position it so the equation reads a^2+b^2.... > > leggi tutto Hi Tim. Good idea and good job! I'm sorry I did not go through the whole text so far, but how about including a section on SD cards and the similar? Formatting, creating objects and dirs, ... Giancarlo === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation Tim, For some new users - those that have used HP calcs previously - there has been a recurring theme since the introduction of the 48SX: 1. The difference between RPN and RPL. Face it, if one is accustomed to the x,y,z,t stack and lastx, there is a transition to RPL. A simple example RPN (of course, there's no DUP in RPN). 2. The BIGGEST complaint I've seen in all these years is the lack/loss of P>R and R>P. Yep, there are multiple ways to overcome this perceived deficiency, but the NEW user is somewhat clueless and VERY pissed off, particularly surveyors and engineers. A brief explanation of these 2 issues and concise 'fixes' might be in order. Chuck === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > 2. The BIGGEST complaint I've seen in all these years is the lack/loss of > P>R and R>P. Yep, there are multiple ways to overcome this perceived > deficiency, but the NEW user is somewhat clueless and VERY pissed off, > particularly surveyors and engineers. > > A brief explanation of these 2 issues and concise 'fixes' might be in order. > > Chuck I find the automatic P->R and R->P conversions fantastic. You can strip the X and Y components using RE and IM, and you can get the r and theta values using ABS and ARG (and you don't even have to type those in!). I totally agree that you should probably go over mode changes and tell the user to stop looking for the P->R and R->P functions. S.C. === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation <71fklkFkrqakU1@mid.individual.net> posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > One of the most useful features for me on the 50g is its powerful unit > conversion ability. ...iff flag -117 is set... otherwise with CHOOSE boxes, unit conversion is a nightmare. > Maybe add a page on matrices -- how to enter a matrix, calculate the > inverse, determinant, and cross product. Also include something about complex numbers here, and how they can be entered as an ordered pair separated by a space (the official HP manual insists on using an extra keystroke to get the shifted , character between the real and imaginary parts). Real numbers, complex numbers, and matrices are all integrated well with the four binary functions as well as the 1/X key, convenient for inverting matrices. > For plotting, maybe cover both function and polar plots, just to cover > everything a high school student might encounter. I remember that parametric plots were confusing at first on the 50g. I was expecting the calculator to ask for two functions x(t) and y(t) to plot as t varies from, say, -6.5 to +6.5. Instead, I only had one function to enter. I dug out the manuals and found out that I had to enter the function as a complex expression, with the real part corresponding to x and the imaginary part to the y. Then I realized that complex numbers are equivalent to ordered pairs on the 50g and parametric plotting made more sense. > Maybe add a few examples with basic number theory and > probability/statistics -- combinations, permutations, prime factoring, > random numbers, and how to calculate the mean and median of a set of > numbers. The 50g has some pretty heavy-duty number theory functions such as solving linear Diophantine equations (IABCUV) and solving modular congruences (ICHINREM) for integers as well as for polynomials, though this might be beyond the scope of the new user documentation. It would probably impress the hacker or advanced math student who would typically buy the 50g over the TI-89 (which, incidentally, cannot do these number theory problems or any other problems not encountered by the average high school student). > Also, a few time-menu-related items could be nice. æShow how to calculate > the number of days between two dates, DMS/HMS conversions, and maybe even > how to set an alarm. I think these would be less important than the other things which are more math-related. The HMS conversions on the 50g are not very well implemented, as it lumps together the minutes and seconds into a decimal that looks like it is completely base 10. A separate scientific would probably be better anyway. > Perhaps this seems to go against my perceived target market of the 50g (I > see it as a calculator for hackers and advanced math students, not a > calculator for high school students), Agreed. Or, at least, not for the *average* high school student. I'm sure there exist high school students out there who would choose the 50g over some other calculator (if they knew about the 50g at all). S.C. === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation posting-account=KxEIGwoAAAALMxy6hykxLK1wPdiyuNkK Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > There is still a great divide, however, between the > ALGebraic and RPN modes, since the schizophrenic > introduction of the former has almost the effect of > changing between two totally different calculators, > with entirely different modes of working. The best way to handle RPN vs ALG in a new users guide is to create two separate documents. Otherwise a great deal of the document won't apply to any given user (assuming that any specific user works primarily in RPN or ALG). The documents would probably start off the same but at some point early on, they'd diverge with one explaining stuff purely in RPN and the other purely in ALG. I suggest that Tim write one version and then solicit volunteer help to translate it into the other mode. Dave === Subject: Re: Newbie question re programming the HP35s reply-type=response Importance: Normal number [ENTER] 10 * I can't answer #2 as I don't have an HP35 :( Doug > I've had many programmable calculators over the years and have very > recently bought an HP35s, my first HP/RPN calculator. > > I've been trying to write some VERY simple routines to get the hang of > programming it, but with little success. As this is my first HP > calculator I've been using it in algebraic entry mode, not RPN. > > I have two questions: > > 1. How do you finish entering a line of 'code' so that you can enter a > fresh line? > > Pressing the expected ENTER key doesn't seem to do this. > > If, for example, I wish to multiply a number by 10, then how do I finish > or end the line? In normal operation I type: > > number x 10 = answer > > When writing this in programming mode pressing ENTER at the end of the > line doesn't work. > > 2. Is the display register preserved when you start a program? > > In other words can you assume the display number is immediately available > and therefore start your program with arithmetical commands? For example, > can the first line of a program be something like: > > x 10 [multiply the display by 10] > > This seems to produce a SYNTAX ERROR (possibly associated with query 1 > above) > > These are very basic questions which I can't answer even after reading the > manual many times and googling for hours! I've also read all the HP35s > posts on this newsgroup but I'm still stuck! > > -- > > Mike > > > > === Subject: Re: Newbie question re programming the HP35s Unfortunately that's the method if you're using RPN but I'm using algebraic entry. Even so, how is the line ended? Suppose the next line started with a number, how does the calculator know this is the start of a new line and not a continuation of the first line? ie number ENTER 10 x new number x [number times 10 times a new number] when I want two lines thus: number ENTER 10 x [number times 10] new number ENTER 20 x [new number times 20] -- Mike > number [ENTER] 10 * > > I can't answer #2 as I don't have an HP35 :( > > Doug > >> I've had many programmable calculators over the years and have very >> recently bought an HP35s, my first HP/RPN calculator. >> >> I've been trying to write some VERY simple routines to get the hang of >> programming it, but with little success. As this is my first HP >> calculator I've been using it in algebraic entry mode, not RPN. >> >> I have two questions: >> >> 1. How do you finish entering a line of 'code' so that you can enter a >> fresh line? >> >> Pressing the expected ENTER key doesn't seem to do this. >> >> If, for example, I wish to multiply a number by 10, then how do I finish >> or end the line? In normal operation I type: >> >> number x 10 = answer >> >> When writing this in programming mode pressing ENTER at the end of the >> line doesn't work. >> >> 2. Is the display register preserved when you start a program? >> >> In other words can you assume the display number is immediately available >> and therefore start your program with arithmetical commands? For >> example, can the first line of a program be something like: >> >> x 10 [multiply the display by 10] >> >> This seems to produce a SYNTAX ERROR (possibly associated with query 1 >> above) >> >> These are very basic questions which I can't answer even after reading >> the manual many times and googling for hours! I've also read all the >> HP35s posts on this newsgroup but I'm still stuck! >> >> -- >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> === Subject: Re: Newbie question re programming the HP35s Michael Quick kirjoitti viestiss.8a:saGdnfTWC_zNLSjUnZ2dnUVZ8oGWnZ2d@giganews.com... > > Unfortunately that's the method if you're using RPN but I'm using > algebraic entry. > > Even so, how is the line ended? Suppose the next line started with a > number, how does the calculator know this is the start of a new line and > not a continuation of the first line? > > ie 1st: number [ * ] 10 [ENTER] 2nd: 2a) [ <-| ] [ * ] new number [ENTER] 2b) you may also write ANS(1) 2c) you nay select ANS from the [CAT] 2d) [HIST] [Up-Arrow] |ECHO| [ * ] new number [ENTER] 2e) [Up-Arrow] [Up-Arrow] |EDIT| [ * ] new number [ENTER] [ENTER] 2f) [ <-| ] [HIST] [ENTER] hold down [ |> ] [ * ] new number [ENTER] 2g)... there are many ways to skin a cat > number ENTER 10 x new number x [number times 10 times a new number] > > when I want two lines thus: > > number ENTER 10 x [number times 10] > new number ENTER 20 x [new number times 20] > > -- > > Mike > > > >> number [ENTER] 10 * >> >> I can't answer #2 as I don't have an HP35 :( >> >> Doug >> >>> I've had many programmable calculators over the years and have very >>> recently bought an HP35s, my first HP/RPN calculator. >>> >>> I've been trying to write some VERY simple routines to get the hang of >>> programming it, but with little success. As this is my first HP >>> calculator I've been using it in algebraic entry mode, not RPN. >>> >>> I have two questions: >>> >>> 1. How do you finish entering a line of 'code' so that you can enter a >>> fresh line? >>> >>> Pressing the expected ENTER key doesn't seem to do this. >>> >>> If, for example, I wish to multiply a number by 10, then how do I finish >>> or end the line? In normal operation I type: >>> >>> number x 10 = answer >>> >>> When writing this in programming mode pressing ENTER at the end of the >>> line doesn't work. >>> >>> 2. Is the display register preserved when you start a program? >>> >>> In other words can you assume the display number is immediately >>> available and therefore start your program with arithmetical commands? >>> For example, can the first line of a program be something like: >>> >>> x 10 [multiply the display by 10] >>> >>> This seems to produce a SYNTAX ERROR (possibly associated with query 1 >>> above) >>> >>> These are very basic questions which I can't answer even after reading >>> the manual many times and googling for hours! I've also read all the >>> HP35s posts on this newsgroup but I'm still stuck! >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> > > === Subject: Re: Newbie question re programming the HP35s reply-type=response Importance: Normal > The algebraic side of the calculator seems very badly suppprted, very few > examples are given. Just a few more lines of text explaining editing and > entering of programs would help a lot. More reason to learn RPN!!! === Subject: Re: Newbie question re programming the HP35s >> The algebraic side of the calculator seems very badly suppprted, very few >> examples are given. Just a few more lines of text explaining editing and >> entering of programs would help a lot. > More reason to learn RPN!!! Yabbut... realistically the algebraic side is what's going to keep HP's calculator division alive these days. Sad but true... === Subject: Re: Newbie question re programming the HP35s Michael Quick kirjoitti viestiss.8a:kbmdnfHQY44hiivUnZ2dnUVZ8gyWnZ2d@giganews.com... >> >> Michael Quick kirjoitti >> viestiss.8a:saGdnfTWC_zNLSjUnZ2dnUVZ8oGWnZ2d@giganews.com... >>> >>> Unfortunately that's the method if you're using RPN but I'm using >>> algebraic entry. >>> >>> Even so, how is the line ended? Suppose the next line started with a >>> number, how does the calculator know this is the start of a new line and >>> not a continuation of the first line? >>> >> 1st: >> number [ * ] 10 [ENTER] > > Ahh, now I see the problem. When I was pressing ENTER to 'end' the line I > was assuming that the display would change to show the next line number. > In fact the display 'freezes' showing the current line with no indication > that the line is now entered and is awaiting the next line to be entered. > > The algebraic side of the calculator seems very badly suppprted, very few > examples are given. Just a few more lines of text explaining editing and > entering of programs would help a lot. > > > Mike > Actually I was talking about 50g command line in ALG mode glad it helped anyway ! :-) === Subject: Re: Newbie question re programming the HP35s <49b5a1ce$0$25596$bb8e7a08@news.usenetcompany.com> posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b2) Gecko/20081201 Firefox/3.1b2,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > 2c) you nay select ANS from the [CAT] On the 35s? TW === Subject: Re: Newbie question re programming the HP35s kirjoitti > >> 2c) you nay select ANS from the [CAT] > > On the 35s? > > TW while I was not on the hpmuseum forum I wasn't watching the model designation my bad === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation - Rectangular and Polar > The BIGGEST complaint I've seen in all these years is the lack/loss of > P>R and R>P. Yep, there are multiple ways to overcome this perceived > deficiency, but the NEW user is somewhat clueless and VERY pissed off, > particularly surveyors and engineers. It's very much like fretting about the missing clutch pedal, when trading in an old manual transmission car for an automatic; the problem is a mind locked into an old paradigm, not yet knowing that a new paradigm is available. I wonder, are surveyors and engineers as much worked up over the absence of an equals key for getting the results of math operations, particularly in RPN mode, where results are produced only directly by math operations, and never even use an additional equals or answer key? If they can adapt to the latter, then the former should also be easy enough to conquer :) > A brief explanation of these 2 issues and concise 'fixes' might be in order. Well, Chuck, have you written one? I have tried numerous times, with postings still archived by Google; new and better writing might always improve upon older attempts, but paradigm shifts often take much explaining, repeating the experience from different perspectives, until it all finally sinks in. The old calculators supported only single real-valued numbers as the fundamental objects for calculating, hence needed two separate objects to represent one point, in either rectangular or polar coordinates, which then needed commands to convert between these coordinates; this also provided no means to keep track of which coordinate system (and angle mode) each pair of current values represented, hence was easily subject to misinterpretation and operational error. Simple tasks such as adding two such vectors also required programming, but no such programming was provided in the calculator itself, leaving much extra work to those same engineers and surveyors. The HP15C started to offer a complex stack, where every one of the four stack objects (and LASTx) would then have two (rectangular) components, but it went no further towards dealing with polar coordinates, retaining only the original P->R and R->P (applying in complex mode to the pair of components on one stack level). More recent HP calculators support various two- and three-dimensional single stack objects (2D and 3D vectors, or 2D complex numbers), which are all handled, without programming, by all math operations which can possibly apply to them. Conversion operations are now somewhat unnecessary, because all vectors or complex numbers are now automatically displayed in any desired coordinates (rectangular, cylindrical, or spherical), with either of the latter two reducing to polar in two dimensions, after we set the desired display mode (RECT, CYLIN, or SPHERE); we can also input vectors and complex number objects in any desired coordinates at any time, merely by prefacing an angle symbol to each angle, the same as appear in all automatically converted displays. Meanwhile, the internal object is always stored the same unambiguous way, and never undergoes any conversion at all, because any necessary conversion occurs automatically during original input, and then again automatically during every display; this eliminates both all need for additional programming and the most likely sources of operational error. New (and often misapplied) commands V-> ->V2 and ->V3 take the place of (and generalize to 3D) the old commands, if needed. The old P->R and R->P, using two separate real objects, can be resurrected via simple programs using the new commands: P->R: << -16 SF ->V2 -16 CF V-> >> R->P: << -16 CF ->V2 -16 SF V-> >> Or in even simpler SysRPL (from a post by Chuck Rushton): P->R: :: CK2&Dispatch 2REAL %POL>%REC ; R->P: :: CK2&Dispatch 2REAL %REC>%POL ; POLAR display mode toggle (formerly on HP48[S/G][X/+] series keyboards): << -16. DUP IF FS? THEN CF ELSE SF END >> RAD angle mode toggle (formerly on the same shifted MTH key as POLAR) << -17. DUP IF FS? THEN CF ELSE SF END >> Various older postings, including about the eternal confusion by which V-> ->V2 and ->V3 (extensions of P->R and R->P) are mistaken for ARRY-> and ->ARRY Can a quick guide for new users simply refer to all existing manuals, permanently archived newsgroup postings, and www.hpcalc.org material, rather than have to say very much more about anything? Where are P->R and R->P on the much newer HP35S, by the way? (therefore not recommended for engineers or surveyors :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation - Rectangular and Polar posting-account=KxEIGwoAAAALMxy6hykxLK1wPdiyuNkK Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > The BIGGEST complaint I've seen in all these years is the lack/loss of > > P>R and R>P. Yep, there are multiple ways to overcome this perceived > > deficiency, but the NEW user is somewhat clueless and VERY pissed off, > > particularly surveyors and engineers. > > It's very much like fretting about the missing clutch pedal, > when trading in an old manual transmission car for an automatic; > the problem is a mind locked into an old paradigm, > not yet knowing that a new paradigm is available. I used P>R and R>P on my 41's in high school and college. I hadn't used complex numbers on my 50g at all, so when I read John's post, I appointed myself Official PolaRectiSpherical New User Guinea Pig, grabbed the User's Manual and sat down to see what this new stuff is all about :) :) :) The hardest part for me was figuring out how to enter complex numbers in polar form. I mistakenly assumed that when the coordinate system was set to polar, I would have to enter complex numbers as (r,theta) instead of (x,y). This was probably hampered by the fact that the angle symbol isn't printed on the keyboard (it's available in edit mode as ALPHA RS 6). Also there are two critical typos in the User Manual (page 4-1). In the first Paragraph under Definitions, it says z = zx + iy (should be z = x + iy). The other incorrectly defines the Euler formula as ei^ (i*theta) = ... it should be e^(i*theta) = .... I would definitely cover complex numbers in a new user guide because they're a common part of high school and college math and science. Start with complex number and some simple operations in the rectangular coordinates. Then say that you can *enter* and *display* complex numbers in polar format also. Mention how to get the angle symbol in any keyboard shortcuts section. Anyway, those the impressions from a guy who hadn't seen native support for complex numbers before. Dave === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation - Rectangular and Polar InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > I used P>R and R>P on my 41's in high school and college. æI hadn't > used complex numbers on my 50g at all, so when I read John's post, I > appointed myself Official PolaRectiSpherical New User Guinea Pig, > grabbed the User's Manual and sat down to see what this new stuff is > all about :) :) :) Since I use a flag -16 toggle for rect/polar conversion, I hadn't really thought about how new users would react to the 49/50 system until Dave mentioned it. Suppose you're used to a scientific calc with R<>P conversion with two keystrokes at most. You pick up your first 49/50. The default is rectangular, so you enter (3 4). Not bad - the calc automagically turns this into (3.,4.). But now we want to see it in polar form. We search the keyboard in vain. MODE must have it. we press, unbelievably, MODE, down, down, down, CHOOS, down, POLAR, OK, OK. That's *eight* keystrokes. Later, you might or might not find out that you can cut this to five with the +/- key. Softkey MODE might be better. We press LS-PRG, NXT, MODES, ANGLE and - surprise! - there's no POLAR. When you're older and wiser, you find out that POLAR is a plotting command and you're supposed to use CYLIN. Still, it's only six keystrokes. How about entering it in polar form? The HP48 had the angle symbol right on the keyboard. A new user would never find it on the 49/50 without some prior knowledge of the character map or the alpha-RS-6 shortcut. I'll bet new users trying out an HP in a store would say, Umm, could I try that TI-89 instead? Sigh. I better say something positive. :-) Here's a program called R2V I use for entering the polar form - just put in magnitude and angle. The calc is left in polar mode. << IFERR PUSH DEG -19 SF CYLIN ->V2 THEN POP Magn,angle END >> 7.5 45 -> (7.5, <)45.) Flag 19 sets V2 to vector rather than complex mode. IFERR puts a reminder on the stack if you run it without an argument. Bill === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation - Rectangular and Polar Geez, sorta, I wasn't trying to stir up a hornet's nest but merely trying to make a small point regarding NEW users - many of whom don't use/never use complex numbers. John is correct that I haven't even tried to write a brief explanation of these 2 issues and concise 'fixes' might be in order. And his excellent explanation of implementing the old P>R and R>P are probably as concise as any possible: The old P->R and R->P, using two separate real objects, can be resurrected via simple programs using the new commands: P->R: << -16 SF ->V2 -16 CF V-> >> R->P: << -16 CF ->V2 -16 SF V-> >> Or in even simpler SysRPL (from a post by Chuck Rushton): P->R: :: CK2&Dispatch 2REAL %POL>%REC ; R->P: :: CK2&Dispatch 2REAL %REC>%POL ; [ I have no recollection of that post - but then I don't recall Sunday evening's dinner either :-) ] The NEW user will briefly deal with flag -16, ->V2, and V-> but will take longer to play with SysRPL or the SYSEVAL equivalents. THAT was my only point, which Tim can take or leave, that the NEW user who may have used an RPN calc may react with a WTF. Is it worth Tim's space, time, and trouble? Only the Shadow knows. Chuck R. > > I used P>R and R>P on my 41's in high school and college. I hadn't > used complex numbers on my 50g at all, so when I read John's post, I > appointed myself Official PolaRectiSpherical New User Guinea Pig, > grabbed the User's Manual and sat down to see what this new stuff is > all about :) :) :) Since I use a flag -16 toggle for rect/polar conversion, I hadn't really thought about how new users would react to the 49/50 system until Dave mentioned it. Suppose you're used to a scientific calc with R<>P conversion with two keystrokes at most. You pick up your first 49/50. The default is rectangular, so you enter (3 4). Not bad - the calc automagically turns this into (3.,4.). But now we want to see it in polar form. We search the keyboard in vain. MODE must have it. we press, unbelievably, MODE, down, down, down, CHOOS, down, POLAR, OK, OK. That's *eight* keystrokes. Later, you might or might not find out that you can cut this to five with the +/- key. Softkey MODE might be better. We press LS-PRG, NXT, MODES, ANGLE and - surprise! - there's no POLAR. When you're older and wiser, you find out that POLAR is a plotting command and you're supposed to use CYLIN. Still, it's only six keystrokes. How about entering it in polar form? The HP48 had the angle symbol right on the keyboard. A new user would never find it on the 49/50 without some prior knowledge of the character map or the alpha-RS-6 shortcut. I'll bet new users trying out an HP in a store would say, Umm, could I try that TI-89 instead? Sigh. I better say something positive. :-) Here's a program called R2V I use for entering the polar form - just put in magnitude and angle. The calc is left in polar mode. << IFERR PUSH DEG -19 SF CYLIN ->V2 THEN POP Magn,angle END >> 7.5 45 -> (7.5, <)45.) Flag 19 sets V2 to vector rather than complex mode. IFERR puts a reminder on the stack if you run it without an argument. Bill === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation - Rectangular and Polar Despite having reviewed this old issue once again, I've still never seen an owner's manual for a vehicle equipped with automatic transmission devote even a word to explaining why there's no clutch pedal :) If we were to start explaining why there isn't this or that, we'd have to explain where RAD and POLAR went, the many HP48 menus which you can not even reach via the new keyboard, and perhaps even why the big ENTER key is gone, which of course would take up the entire limited space of the brief new guide :) Besides, it's for new users, whereas anyone who remembers what old calculators did is most likely an experienced old hand, just a bit late in trading in for a next-generation tool. As you travel on through life, Brother, whatever be your goal, keep your eye upon the Doughnut, and not upon the Hole [from a placemat in a coffee shop] [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation - Rectangular and Polar If, despite the disadvantages of using the old commands, you would like Chuck Rushton's 12.5 byte SysRPL programs for the original P->R and R->P without having to compile them: HP49/50 series only: D9D20503621B1336AE03B2130 #100001h LIBEVAL 'P->R' STO D9D20503621B13397E03B2130 #100001h LIBEVAL 'R->P' STO Type the strings above very carefully (no checking is performed, errors could corrupt memory) and backup memory before using, just in case; also note that LIBEVAL is not syseval. HP48[S/G][X/+] series only (not 48Gii): D9D20FDE8199040BB4B2B21309254 ASC-> 'P->R' STO D9D20FDE8199040E84B2B2130CA7B ASC-> 'R->P' STO Type carefully, although the required ASC-> translator http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=2377 http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/utils/memory/asc.zip verifies the checksums appended to the latter two strings. These are offered for experienced users only, of course, not for beginners' user guides, which do not, as a rule, offer anything in SysRPL, nor anything which could, if an error were made, wipe out memory. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: HP 50g tables with multiple variables posting-account=r34UXAoAAACVtBQC6rZzurHrqXLTI5vn Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hi everybody, does anyone of you know whether it is possible to create tables from functions with multiple variables? To put it in other words: I have one (or more) function(s) f(a,b,c) and need to evaluate this function depending on the values in a,b and c. I started by setting Table Type : Build your Own in the Table Setup Menu. This lets me set the values for ONE of these variables manually. But what I need is the ability to set 3 values (a,b and c!) manually. This task should not be to hard to do for the HP50g... its a very simple evaluation of an equation. But is it already integrated into the table environment or are there any tools to do that? anything... Philipp === Subject: Re: HP 50g tables with multiple variables > Hi everybody, > > does anyone of you know whether it is possible to create tables from > functions with multiple variables? To put it in other words: I have > one (or more) function(s) > > f(a,b,c) > > and need to evaluate this function depending on the values in a,b and > c. I started by setting Table Type : Build your Own in the Table > Setup Menu. This lets me set the values for ONE of these variables > manually. But what I need is the ability to set 3 values (a,b and c!) > manually. > > This task should not be to hard to do for the HP50g... its a very > simple evaluation of an equation. But is it already integrated into > the table environment or are there any tools to do that? The table environment is limited to one independent variable. But you can program to create matrices of n+1 columns with each row representing n independent variables together with the value of a function of those n variables. === Subject: Re: HP 50g tables with multiple variables Virgil kirjoitti viestiss.8a:Virgil-27F138.23083709032009@news.usenetmonster.com... > >> Hi everybody, >> >> does anyone of you know whether it is possible to create tables from >> functions with multiple variables? To put it in other words: I have >> one (or more) function(s) >> >> f(a,b,c) >> >> and need to evaluate this function depending on the values in a,b and >> c. I started by setting Table Type : Build your Own in the Table >> Setup Menu. This lets me set the values for ONE of these variables >> manually. But what I need is the ability to set 3 values (a,b and c!) >> manually. >> >> This task should not be to hard to do for the HP50g... its a very >> simple evaluation of an equation. But is it already integrated into >> the table environment or are there any tools to do that? > > The table environment is limited to one independent variable. I tested a complex vector in TAB with a two variable function using RE and IM but the Environment only uses the real part (like the Plot Environment, too) so you have to program it as suggested === Subject: Re: HP 50g tables with multiple variables > does anyone know whether it is possible to create tables > from functions with multiple variables? > To put it in other words: I have one (or more) function(s) > f(a,b,c) and need to evaluate this function > depending on the values in a,b and c. > I started by setting Table Type : Build your Own > in the Table Setup Menu. > This lets me set the values for ONE of these variables manually. > But what I need is the ability to set 3 values (a,b and c) manually. > > This task should not be to hard to do for the HP50g... > it's a very simple evaluation of an equation. > But is it already integrated into the table environment > or are there any tools to do that? As a part of the graphing environment, the table generator is designed to (usually automatically) generate a single sequence of consecutive equation values (or the consecutive values of multiple equations), which means that only one input variable can vary, because what is being generated is a one-dimensional list. It looks to me as though automatic means the automatic generation of regularly spaced values for that single variable, while manual means that you specify the particular input values manually, although still for only one variable, and also save all the manual values into an array in a variable, so that the values can all be remembered (the automatic generator does not need to remember anything more than its current argument, because one can always scroll by merely changing that one value, re-calculating the very few currently displayed rows, with no need to remember a potentially unlimited set of isolated particular inputs). Another perspective is that the graphing environment always operates on varying a single independent variable, even if there may be multiple equations with multiple output values. However, you can write a program to accept multiple input values, compute one or more result values (or use a set of pre-defined equations), combine all this into one vector, and append that each time as a new row of a matrix, then use the Matrix Writer to display your table. As to appending a vector to an existing matrix, the GS+ (Sigma+) command appends an input vector (or simply the next N independent stack values) to the 'GSDAT' (SigmaDAT) statistics matrix, which resides in a stored variable having this fixed name, or initially creates the matrix when the first vector is presented. An initial vector is needed to initially set the number of columns, subsequent input may then be either same-length vectors or a set of individual stack values, which is handy for manual input. The ROW+ command may also be used to append (or insert) a new [vector] row into any matrix on the stack. The statistics commands have existed since the earliest HP48S, while ROW+ was introduced in the next series (HP48G[X][+]), and all these commands continue to exist in the HP49/50 series. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: HP 50g tables with multiple variables > As to appending a vector to an existing matrix... I suppose this could give rise to another idea (and simpler program), which is that your program could invoke the Matrix Writer, which can append (or insert) a new row at any time, then your program could, upon each exit from the Matrix Writer, compute the to be calculated values in all rows, and re-display the matrix, continuing this loop until the CANCEL key is pressed (it may require two presses). E.g. [ 0 0 0 0 0 ] ->NUM @ initial empty matrix @ or resume with previously computed matrix as input << DO EDITB @ re-display matrix, insert new data as desired @ calculate new computed data here [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Musing on the SI Prefix >>> Well, 1/10^27 square meters is approximately ten barns :) >> A cube containing eight electrons packed together has six barn-sized >> faces. If the electrons are big enough. And if the barns are small >> enough. >> >> -Joe- >> A horse walks into a bar. The bartender says, Why the long face? > > A sandwich walks into a bar. The bartender says, We don't serve your > kind in here. An Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman walk into a bar. The bartender says, Is this some kind of a joke? -- Bruce Horrocks Surrey England (bruce at scorecrow dot com) === Subject: Re: Programmable Calculator > I was wanting a Casio FC200V as it has depreciation function but alas > you cant get it in the uk. A Google search using the term Casio FC200V site:.uk lists numerous places in the UK that sell the FC200V -- Bruce Horrocks Surrey England (bruce at scorecrow dot com) === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 > I think this could be done easily in the loop, which is required > anyway. Here is some pseudo code: > > Fkt C(n,r) > r:= min(r,n-r) > C:=1 > For x=1 to r do > m:=n/GCD(n,x) ; resultung multiplier > d:=x/GCD(n,x) ; resulting denominator (could be 1) > C:=C/d*m ; magically divide first, then multiply :-) > n:=n-1 > next x > end Fkt(C) Yes, this is pretty much what I intended. >>A compromise that I can see is to skip the GCD step entirely (which >>would save code and runtime), and avoid fractions entirely (which >>would avoid roundoff errors), by removing all of the parentheses from >>the first expression and then executing it directly, left to right. >>This *will* traverse intermediate values larger than the final answer, >>but not terribly much larger (well, nowhere near as bad as using the >>definition in my earlier posting!), and it's doable in the meager >>program space of the HP-65. > > always simply divide first and multiply afterwards. There will be of > course occasional decimal fractions. But they should never be so large > as not being finally correctly rounded to 0, because at least the next > multiplication in the sequence will bring the result _very_ close to > an integer. Consequently any intermediate results will also not exceed > the final result. > > Pseudo Code > > Fkt C(n,r) > r:=min(r,r-n) > C:=1 > For x=1 to r do > C:=C/x*n > n:=n-1 > next x > round (C,0) > end Fkt(C) > > I hope not having overlooked the obvious :-) I don't know what you mean by rounded to 0. I would simply say rounded to the nearest integer, and write round (C,0) as C:=round(C). Scott -- Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu This isn't flying. This is falling, with style. -- Buzz Lightyear === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 Scott Hemphill meinte > >> I think this could be done easily in the loop, which is required >> anyway. Here is some pseudo code: >> >> Fkt C(n,r) >> r:= min(r,n-r) >> C:=1 >> For x=1 to r do >> m:=n/GCD(n,x) ; resultung multiplier >> d:=x/GCD(n,x) ; resulting denominator (could be 1) >> C:=C/d*m ; magically divide first, then multiply :-) >> n:=n-1 >> next x >> end Fkt(C) > >Yes, this is pretty much what I intended. > >>>A compromise that I can see is to skip the GCD step entirely (which >>>would save code and runtime), and avoid fractions entirely (which >>>would avoid roundoff errors), by removing all of the parentheses from >>>the first expression and then executing it directly, left to right. >>>This *will* traverse intermediate values larger than the final answer, >>>but not terribly much larger (well, nowhere near as bad as using the >>>definition in my earlier posting!), and it's doable in the meager >>>program space of the HP-65. >> >> always simply divide first and multiply afterwards. There will be of >> course occasional decimal fractions. But they should never be so large >> as not being finally correctly rounded to 0, because at least the next >> multiplication in the sequence will bring the result _very_ close to >> an integer. Consequently any intermediate results will also not exceed >> the final result. >> >> Pseudo Code >> >> Fkt C(n,r) >> r:=min(r,r-n) >> C:=1 >> For x=1 to r do >> C:=C/x*n >> n:=n-1 >> next x >> round (C,0) >> end Fkt(C) >> >> I hope not having overlooked the obvious :-) > >I don't know what you mean by rounded to 0. I would simply say >rounded to the nearest integer, and write round (C,0) as >C:=round(C). the questions remains if my assumption about the neglectible rounding error is really valid. G.9fnter === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 > >> ... you could write a program to do this: >> ... >> 1*(20)*(19/2)*(6)*(17/4)*(16/5)*(5/2)*(2)*(13/8)*(4/3) = >> 1*20/2*19*6/4*17/5*16/2*5*2/8*13/3*4 = >> 167960 >> >> Note that the intermediate values of the answer are always smaller >> than its final value. æThis is also true for all other integral values >> of n and r. > > Cool! However, I'd be amazed if the HP-65 Statistics Pac uses this > method in its combinations & permutations program, since the > denominators mathemagically migrate forward from your first expression > above to the second. Mathematically, they're equivalent of course, but > algorithmically they are not. How did those denominators know where > best to move forward to? The GCD step didn't do it. (If I > misunderstood you, please slap me upside the head). Consider yourself slapped. :-) For each parenthetical fraction, just do the divide first, then the multiply. 1*(20)*(19/2)*(6)*(17/4)*(16/5)*(5/2)*(2)*(13/8)*(4/3) = 1 *20 /2*19* 6 /4*17 /5*16 /2*5 *2 /8*13 /3*4 = > A compromise that I can see is to skip the GCD step entirely (which > would save code and runtime), and avoid fractions entirely (which > would avoid roundoff errors), by removing all of the parentheses from > the first expression and then executing it directly, left to right. > This *will* traverse intermediate values larger than the final answer, > but not terribly much larger (well, nowhere near as bad as using the > definition in my earlier posting!), and it's doable in the meager > program space of the HP-65. Skipping the GCD might be good. You could either do as you suggest, or you might be able to do what Guenter suggests: do the divide first, then the multiply, then a round. Scott -- Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu This isn't flying. This is falling, with style. -- Buzz Lightyear === Subject: HP UserEdit 5...Direction!! posting-account=VWYfuAoAAAAFFgsxAFKBQoDsReSTRCIr SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hi All, I have written a small programme that is supposed to calculate prestressing forces, however i'm struggling every step of the way. does anyone know of a good reference manual for HP User Edit 5 or a fairly basic manual with plenty of worked exmples? My main aim is to get 5-10 seperate values into the prog, do 5 or 6 computations with the values, and then present them- it can't be too hard!! I may need to draw a graph later on, which would be a scatter graph. Does anybody have any experience with this or could point me in the right direction? Kay === Subject: Re: Hydrogeology or geology programs for HP48/49/50 series posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > æ æDoes anyone know of any free Geology or Hydrogeology software > available for download for the 48/49 or 50 series calculators? One of > my former Physics students( A Geology Major) is going to take æcourses > in Petrology and Hydrogeology and Sedimentation in the Fall 2009 > semester. > He is one of the few students I know that has HP calculators( A 48GX > and a HP50G) > I know they will be using Applied Hydrogeology (4th Edition) > by C.W. Fetter. > æI do not know what text they will be using for Petrology or > Sedimentation. > He said calculator programs would be helpful in the æHydrogeology Lab, > Petrology Lab(Field work) and Sedimentation Lab(Field work) > I have searched Eric's site pretty thoroughly and have found only a > few Hydrology programs. > Harold A Climer > Dept. Of Physics Geology, and Astronomy > U.T, Chattanooga > Rm. 406A Engineering, Math & Computer Science Building > 615 McCallie Ave. Chattanooga TN 37403 > Harold-Ci...@utc.edu Hello Harold, Sounds like a fun program to write! I adored geology as a child. I used to order rocks and minerals from places in the southwest U.S. as well as collecting rocks locally in N.Y. I knew my entire collection by both touch and smell. I'm an elementary education major at UCF in Orlando and will certainly include plenty of geology in my lesson plans when I begin teaching. I took an introduction to geology course a while back as part of my science requirement. The most fascinating thing I learned was concerning the orientation of basalt layers on the ocean floor. The different layers of basalt were oriented differently because basalt, being magnetic, was influenced by shifts of the magnetic poles over eons of time. I'm curious about the contents of the book you mentioned above so next time I go to the campus library I'll look for it. Mark === Subject: Re: help please. hp82240b calculator printer posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I just purchased an HP 82240b handheld printer that has been > discontinued, of course, but was still new in the box. æI am having > trouble getting the paper to feed. æAnyone had a problem with that > before? æI purchased the printer to print information off of an HID > Entryprox system and not an HP calculator. æHas anyone used this > printer for such a purpose? > I still have my HP 82240B although I don't use it anymore. If I had trouble getting the paper to feed I'd cut the thermal paper to make a really sharp edge and then feed it. I have the original manual, printed in August 1989, so if you need any information on control codes, escape sequences, etc., let me know. FYI, on page 7 of the manual it states Do not pull paper-use (feed key [ ^ ] ). Do not pull paper backward through printer. Do not run paper to end of roll if paper is attached to its inner core (HP paper is not attached). Mark === Subject: rom 2.14 in emu48 posting-account=T6_JoAoAAAD5X1NpIb7ZcQrmFCd8Otqa Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I updated my calculator with ROM version 2.14. I want to use the same version in EMU48. How can I do that? Valfisio. === Subject: Re: symbolical solution of linear equation system *not* in matrix form? posting-account=ig899wkAAAAe9dQz7LKowWKRo9OO-X2B 1.1.4322),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > I wonder how I can solve an equation system symbolically? On the HP-48GX (but not on the 49/50g series) the following does the job: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv015.cgi?read=82010 Gerson. === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 Hi On 2009-03-16 08:57:54 +1100, Jacob Wall said: > reset it. The EqnLib.lib (~11KB) worked just fine so I tried the > EqnData.lib (~58KB) again, same problem again, then I noticed that the > File Manager now showed only 7KB available in Port 2, and some of my > libraries that I had installed in Port 2 where gone. Weird, then > further all of a sudden when pressing the ON key, the calculator would > warmstart, this eventually went away, no idea what the deal was > there. Looks like someone forgot to check that entry points didn't move ... Jean-Yves === Subject: Re: 50g: enormous-size posting-account=QSfVcQoAAADkgn5Et4hWcvOa13b-lJy1 Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > My calculator has normal-size over my hand but...http://i40.tinypic.com/2nkiaeh.jpg > > Model: Kate Portales > Age: 2 months old > > - Gaak - Seems like some of your rutines has ended in a very nice code, genetic in this case. Congratulations, you should take as much pictures as you can, they change really fast, and never will see them the way they were. Daniel. === Subject: Re: Statistic Pac for 48sx posting-account=UnwNPgoAAACEJwXxAvoJt_C0aOypAtj0 Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Hello everyone. æI've been using my 48sx now for 20 years and I love > my calculator! æI'm currently earning a Masters in Statistics. æI > noticed sometime ago that the 48sx had a Statistic Pac card, does > anyone know what is does? æI would like to know the capabilities or > maybe see the manual. æAlso, does anyone know where I can buy one if I > think it will help me. > I remember EduCalc had these years ago. When I took an Engineering Stat class in 1993 being a poor student It was fairly easy to do and I keyed and referenced of the internal stat package that is under[ left shift] 5. I was able to use the matrix writer entry and save the data under the [data] name for use by the internal stats menu. My program just called the basic stats for use with my enhancements. It work pretty well. You may find what you are looking or at the hpcalc arcives . http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/math/statistic Good Luck David / === Subject: Re: Statistic Pac for 48sx I have the Statistics-ROMcard 48-802 Ver. 2.019122 (c) SESCO Handels AG 1991 It's a 32KB ROM card, the manual has 45 pages and is completely written in German. I got the card together with a used 48SX. I never seen an advertisement for this card a 2nd time. It's _not_ for sale. Christoph cylurian schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Hello everyone. I've been using my 48sx now for 20 years and I love > my calculator! I'm currently earning a Masters in Statistics. I > noticed sometime ago that the 48sx had a Statistic Pac card, does > anyone know what is does? I would like to know the capabilities or > maybe see the manual. Also, does anyone know where I can buy one if I > think it will help me. > > === Subject: Re: Statistic Pac for 48sx Hi Christoph, IIRC, W&W also offered the StatROM for sale. Raymond Christoph Giesselink <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >I have the > > Statistics-ROMcard > 48-802 > Ver. 2.019122 > (c) SESCO Handels AG 1991 > > It's a 32KB ROM card, the manual has 45 pages and is completely written in > German. I got the card together with a used 48SX. I never seen an > advertisement for this card a 2nd time. It's _not_ for sale. > > > Christoph > > > cylurian <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> Hello everyone. I've been using my 48sx now for 20 years and I love >> my calculator! I'm currently earning a Masters in Statistics. I >> noticed sometime ago that the 48sx had a Statistic Pac card, does >> anyone know what is does? I would like to know the capabilities or >> maybe see the manual. Also, does anyone know where I can buy one if I >> think it will help me. >> >> > > === Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?TNT2_b=EAta?= posting-account=eF2f0AoAAAB2spBRiZOs91ItDKLGDCIk Gecko/2008120122 Firefox/3.0.5,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello Since developing compression software, i've been asked sometimes what made TNT the better compression ratio software available on Saturn- based system. In order to answer these questions, i decided to have a look at TNT code. Having a look is more easily said than done, as TNT binary code is marred with many obfuscating techniques, especially Program Counter manipulation, specifically designed to defeat decompilers & splitters. Therefore, getting to the ML code is a little challenge in itself. But once there, i was quite disappointed by what i discovered. I don't know if this was already a well-known fact, but TNT is just a rip of BZ, which source code is freely available. Same code, same registers, same algorithm, everything is exactly at the same place, including errors. Now of course there is a modification that explain the ratio difference, but it is somewhat simple and well located : the encoding trigram selected by Mika Heiskanen to code the length field is replaced by a limited version of Elias-Gamma-Code, which is more efficient, but also more computation intensive. Now for the good part : if TNT is a rip with little modification from BZ, then creating a TNT2 version starting from BZ2 can be quite simple, and should result with approximately the same benefit (faster compression/decompression, lower memory usage and higher compression ratio). Hence TNT2, the new highest compression ratio Saturn-based compressor, for HP48,49,50, currently at B.90ta2 stage, which in fact should be called Release Candidate as it is already extensively tested. You can find it at following address : http://HPUtils.Webhop.org or http://phantasie.tonempire.net/utilitaires-f7/tnt2-aka-bz2-with-elias-gamma- code-t77.htm#95 or (direct download) http://img21.xooimage.com/files/7/c/2/tnt2-beta2-bb5dce.zip As previously with BZ2, i'm willing to propose an opened beta phase before actually declaring it final release, although at this stage TNT2 has no more any known bug. === Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_TNT2_b=EAta?= posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Having a look is more easily said than done, as TNT binary code is > marred with many obfuscating techniques, especially Program Counter > manipulation, specifically designed to defeat decompilers & splitters. > Therefore, getting to the ML code is a little challenge in itself. > > But once there, i was quite disappointed by what i discovered. Probably explains the reason for the obfuscation. :-) TW === Subject: Re: customized menu posting-account=T6_JoAoAAAD5X1NpIb7ZcQrmFCd8Otqa Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) All were very helpful. Valfisio. === Subject: Re: HPGCC for 48gII? posting-account=KxEIGwoAAAALMxy6hykxLK1wPdiyuNkK Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > Does HPGCC support the HP 48gii? [...] > > You would need version 1.1 to use it with the 48GII and 39G. Checkwww.hpgcc.orgto download the proper version. > > Claudio It took some digging to get HPGCC to work on the 48gii so I thought I'd post some additional instructions. First, you need HPGCC version 1.1. You can get it from the sourceforge page here http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group id=115846&package id=125756. Note that the link for hpgcc1.1 on hpgcc.org is broken. Install HPGCC 1.1 on your computer I had to add c:arm-hplibexecgccarm-elf3.4.6 to my path so the compiler could find cc1.exe. I'm not sure if that was a problem with installation. There are separate versions of the ARMToolbox for the HP48 and HP 49. You need to install c:arm-hpARMToolboxLIB275-48.lib. Note that you'll want to rename this library first because LIB275-48.LIB is an invalid variable name on the calculator. It looks like S->exe isn't supported on the 48gii. You can only run programs via the PrRUN command. This means you can't create stand- alone programs on the HP48 - they require the ARMToolbox to be installed. Dave === Subject: ALG48 / Erable installation fails on HP50g posting-account=r34UXAoAAACVtBQC6rZzurHrqXLTI5vn Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) for the last two days i have been trying to install the ALG48 and Erable libs on my relatively new HP50g. I sadly have not succeeded yet (which might also be caused by the fact that I am a newbie on HP calculators). I have already read the instructions on installing labraries in the HP So what I did was: 1. Copy the alg48.lib file to my HP50g via the HP Calculator Connectivity Kit. When I try to copy the file the HP Connectivity Kit software tells me that the file is a HP48 file and might damage my calculator (which i ignore by clicking proceed.) 2. I go to the directory where the alg48.lib is stored, push the var button and hit the softkey corresponding to the alg48.lib (by the way all in ALGEBRAIC mode). The threads I read in this forum said that something like Library XYZ: Alg48 should appear, but it does not. All I see then is a string like HPHP48-X@+ ........... (very long one....) 3. If I then continue with the instructions and try to store the variable in one port this installation fails... which is probably caused by the problems in step 2. My calculator tells me that the variable alg48.lib is stored as a string. Is that maybe the reason for the problems? Or what else can I do to overcome my problems and install alg48 / erable and other libs? HP newbie aka Philipp === Subject: Re: ALG48 / Erable installation fails on HP50g > for the last two days I have been trying > to install the ALG48 and Erable libs on my relatively new HP50g. As Herve Chappe said, the purpose of those HP48[SX/GX] series libraries is to provide symbolic and other capabilities which have been built into the entire HP49/50 series for the past eight or so years. So those libraries are not necessary. Also, no HP48[S/G] series library works on any HP49/50 series calculator, so if you go to www.hpcalc.org to shop for more libraries or other programs, look only for those marked with the HP49/50 series calculator image. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: ALG48 / Erable installation fails on HP50g posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > All I see then is a string like HPHP48-X@+ ........... (very long > one....) > > My calculator tells me that the variable alg48.lib is stored as a > string. Is that maybe the reason for the Perhaps you are transferring in Text mode and not Binary mode? Though I don't think you need to transfer those libraries onto a 50g since the built-in CAS basically has all of those functions anyway. S.C. === Subject: Re: ALG48 / Erable installation fails on HP50g > Perhaps you are transferring in Text mode and not Binary mode? No HP48[S/G] series binary file can even be transferred to an HP49/50 series calculator, nor vice-versa, except as a string. This is because the original designers thought ahead, to the possibility that various binary files for different models (or even different ROM versions) might be incompatible, so there is an 8-character header HPHP48-v or HPHP49-v on every calculator binary file, which every calculator compares to its own version during file transfer (including transfer to HP49G+/50G via SD card). As it turned out, HP was able to retain compatibility across each entire series, at least for all supported ROM addresses of internal functions, so the only enforced restriction is that the binary file must belong to the same series, HP48[S/G] vs HP49/50 (the newer HP48Gii also belongs to the latter series). [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: ALG48 / Erable installation fails on HP50g posting-account=r34UXAoAAACVtBQC6rZzurHrqXLTI5vn Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Ahh, good to know. Seems like i will need to learn a bit more about the HP50g to properly use it... :) Philipp === Subject: Re: ALG48 / Erable installation fails on HP50g philipp.oetti@gmx.de a .8ecrit : > > for the last two days i have been trying to install the ALG48 and > Erable libs on my relatively new HP50g. I sadly have not succeeded yet > (which might also be caused by the fact that I am a newbie on HP > calculators). > > I have already read the instructions on installing labraries in the HP > So what I did was: > > 1. Copy the alg48.lib file to my HP50g via the HP Calculator > Connectivity Kit. When I try to copy the file the HP Connectivity Kit > software tells me that the file is a HP48 file and might damage my > calculator (which i ignore by clicking proceed.) > 2. I go to the directory where the alg48.lib is stored, push the var > button and hit the softkey corresponding to the alg48.lib (by the way > all in ALGEBRAIC mode). The threads I read in this forum said that > something like Library XYZ: Alg48 should appear, but it does not. > All I see then is a string like HPHP48-X@+ ........... (very long > one....) > 3. If I then continue with the instructions and try to store the > variable in one port this installation fails... which is probably > caused by the problems in step 2. > > My calculator tells me that the variable alg48.lib is stored as a > string. Is that maybe the reason for the problems? Or what else can I > do to overcome my problems and install alg48 / erable and other libs? > > HP newbie aka Philipp As far as I know, this is more or less useless, as most of ALG48 and Erable functions - if not even much more - are now included in the native HP50g CAS functions... True HP gurus will certainly provide a much more accurate answer. Herve === Subject: Re: symbolical solution of linear equation system *not* in matrix form? posting-account=8aDbxgoAAACntO_SyPlnJL1FvsKVQEfd Gecko/2009012700 SUSE/3.0.6-0.1.2 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > The SOLVE command can solve linear and polynomial systems. > > > [ 'X*A1+(X-Y)*B1=C1' 'A2*C-B2*Y=C2' ] ['X' 'Y'] SOLVE > > Another option is to isolate one unknown variable in one equation > by means of ISOL and then to eliminate this variable in another > equation by SUBST. You can do this process several times for > more than two equations. After my first approach failed, I did somwhat the same by solving the first equation with SOLVE and subsequently substituting the results, but it's really a lot of work with a high likelyhood for errors, with more than three equations :) That's what I meant with so that manually collecting the coefficients would take a long time... === Subject: Re: symbolical solution of linear equation system *not* in matrix form? <86eiwytyma.fsf@vulcan.lan> posting-account=8aDbxgoAAACntO_SyPlnJL1FvsKVQEfd Gecko/2009012700 SUSE/3.0.6-0.1.2 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > X*a1 + (X-Y)*b1 > > Equals c1, I assume? No, equals zero :) but doesn't matter. > > a2*X - b2*Y = c2 > > > The SOLVE command can solve linear and polynomial systems. > > [ 'X*A1+(X-Y)*B1=C1' 'A2*C-B2*Y=C2' ] ['X' 'Y'] SOLVE Ah, thank you VERY much for that hint! I have been trying to put the equations and the variables of the solution into a *list*, not an array. And this only works partially, i.e. the solutions still contain the other solutions, too. But now it is clear to me, *why* this happens: this is simply an elementwise operation! === Subject: Re: symbolical solution of linear equation system *not* in matrix form? >> > X*a1 + (X-Y)*b1 >> >> Equals c1, I assume? > > No, equals zero :) but doesn't matter. > >> > a2*X - b2*Y = c2 >> >> >> The SOLVE command can solve linear and polynomial systems. >> >> [ 'X*A1+(X-Y)*B1=C1' 'A2*C-B2*Y=C2' ] ['X' 'Y'] SOLVE > > Ah, thank you VERY much for that hint! I have been trying to put the > equations and the variables of the solution into a *list*, not an > array. And this only works partially, i.e. the solutions still contain > the other solutions, too. But now it is clear to me, *why* this > happens: this is simply an elementwise operation! > In general, most of the CAS commands that want a set of objects expect an array. Systems of equations, DERIV with respect to multiple variables, SUBSTing several var=value equations at once, etc. Note that when trying to use these programatically, I generally find it easier to build a list and then use AXL. === Subject: Re: HP UserEdit 5...Direction!! posting-account=VWYfuAoAAAAFFgsxAFKBQoDsReSTRCIr CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hi Mark, I'm using a HP 50g, which i have the feeling is going to turn out to be either my greatest friend or worst enemy!! good use of a couple of the references. In terms of HPUserEdit 5, I've only just got to grips with it after about 2weeks of meddling, i.e. i've only just finished writing a simple 8 variables in and 4 results out programme. Once you have started you with it you will never look back! What kind of programme do you intend to write using it? === Subject: Re: Adding Equations into Programms (UserRPL) posting-account=VWYfuAoAAAAFFgsxAFKBQoDsReSTRCIr CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) mins to rearrange the programme and get exaclty what i wanted!! === Subject: Re: Adding Equations into Programms (UserRPL) posting-account=VWYfuAoAAAAFFgsxAFKBQoDsReSTRCIr CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > mins to rearrange the programme and get exaclty what i wanted!! Just as a foot note, what does the [r->] [OFF] do? === Subject: Re: Adding Equations into Programms (UserRPL) > Just as a foot note, what does the [r->] [OFF] do? It turns me back off again, after I have rattled a bit, just like one of these fine specimens: http://www.mileskimball.com/MilesKimball/Shopping/ProductDetail.aspx?CID=Chi ldren&SCID=Banks&ProductID=0000004268 http://ak.buy.com/db assets/large images/632/208384632.jpg http://www.backtobasicstoys.com/images/3254.jpg http://www.farmgoodsforkids.com/images/PRODUCT/large/SC3-MB.jpg I have merely been modified to be started by making a newsgroup post, instead of by inserting a coin :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Adding Equations into Programms (UserRPL) posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b3) Gecko/20090305 Firefox/3.1b3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Just as a foot note, what does the [r->] [OFF] do? How do you turn your calculator off? TW === Subject: Re: HP 40GS - New ROM 2.20 posting-account=QBRP_woAAAACvKwdAEfnZqux5xRRTgZ1 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > First ever ROM update available at hpcalc.org, apparently only > available throughhttp://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=7099 Any idea what the improvements are? Gary === Subject: Re: HP 40GS - New ROM 2.20 posting-account=kINXRQoAAACwzeObbKzgkSilFR8cKfNC Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1) ; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; BCD2000; OfficeLiveConnector.1.3; OfficeLivePatch.0.0; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618; BCD2000),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Yes, CAS has been overhauled & now functions significantly more smoothly. As for the operating system I don't know. === Subject: Re: HP 40GS - New ROM 2.20 posting-account=QBRP_woAAAACvKwdAEfnZqux5xRRTgZ1 > Yes, CAS has been overhauled & now functions significantly more > smoothly. As for the operating system I don't know. Gary === Subject: Plotting Lines with UserRPL posting-account=VWYfuAoAAAAFFgsxAFKBQoDsReSTRCIr CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hi All, Having falsely convinced myself that i'm actully getting the hang of this User RPL lark i have once more be thrust into the belly of the confusion beast. Here is my programme and what i think i'm doing with each step. Can anyone advise me as to where i'm going wrong? I would like to link a INFORM Input box with a LINE function. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- -> denotes the forward arrow <<>> denotes programme brackets denotes programming comments ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Here is my code: << start Line Dyn called line_dyn { { X1 Point 1, X Co-ord 0} Input X1 - Noted as Point 1 X Co-ord, Real Value { Y1 Point 1, Y Co-ord 0} as above { X2 Point 2, X Co-ord 0} { Y2 Point 2, Y Co-ord 0} } { } Default values { } Arrangements INFORM completes the INFORM section IF start of IF-THEN- ELSE statement THEN OBJ-> DROP -> X1 Y1 X2 Y2 take values from stack and set them as X1, Y1, X2, Y2 << open sub programme X1 Y1 R->C convert real number to complex number for use with Line X2 Y2 R->C see previous post on this forum May 17 1998 by John Loux << DEG open 2nd sub-prog and set angles to degrees 0 1000 XRNG set x range of screen 0 500 YRNG set y range of screen (X1,Y1) (X2, Y2) LINE start line at X1, Y1, and end line at X2, Y2 { } PVIEW show the line >> close 2nd sub programme >> close first sub programme ELSE continue with else statement ERROR MSGBOX present Error in a message box if THEN=0 END close the IF-THEN-ELSE statement >> done. Except this doesn't work.... Any comments or suggestions would be grealty received... Kay === Subject: Re: Plotting Lines with UserRPL InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) [Note that this is a repost. Google seems to have erased my first. If you get it twice, so it goes.] Lots wrong in that one. :-) Postings should have a line length of 65 or less - otherwise the comments are split into the code by the wordwrap. The comment character is @. Symbols like the double quote (), the right arrow, and the program delimiters should be preceded by a backslash (). That way a reader can copy and paste it into a calc or emulator for debugging. There was a list missing from INFORM - the row/column list. I used two by two. You've made it too complicated. INFORM outputs the required four values and you just have to make them into coordinates on the stack. That's about it. As far as the error handling, the only error condition is if someone presses OK when there are no numbers entered. IFERR handles that. However, if you still want the messagebox, insert ERROR MSGBOX after DROPN. Below is a working version. It might need adjusting here and there if it doesn't suit. Bill << IFERR Line Dyn { { X1 Point 1, X Co-ord 0 } { Y1 Point 1, Y Co-ord 0 } { X2 Point 2, X Co-ord 0 } { Y2 Point 2, Y Co-ord 0 } } { 2 2 } @ Rows/cols { } @ empty list for reset values { } @ empty list for default values INFORM IF THEN OBJ-> DROP @ Four numbers now on stack R->C 3 ROLLD R->C @ Make them into two coordinates LINE @ Draw the line in PICT DEG 0 1000 XRNG 0 500 YRNG { } PVIEW @ Display PICT END THEN 4 DROPN @ Drop NOVALS if OK pressed when empty END >> === Subject: Re: Plotting Lines with UserRPL InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Hi All, > Lots wrong in that one. :-) Postings should have a line length of 65 or less - otherwise the comments are split into the code by the wordwrap. The comment character is @. Symbols like the double quote (), the right arrow, and the program delimiters should be preceded by a backslash (). That way a reader can copy and paste it into a calc or emulator for debugging. There was a list missing from INFORM - the row/column list. I used two by two. You've made it too complicated. INFORM outputs the required four values and you just have to make them into coordinates on the stack. That's about it. As far as the error handling, the only error condition is if someone presses OK when there are no numbers entered. IFERR handles that. Below is a working version. It might need adjusting here and there. Bill << IFERR Line Dyn { { X1 Point 1, X Co-ord 0 } { Y1 Point 1, Y Co-ord 0 } { X2 Point 2, X Co-ord 0 } { Y2 Point 2, Y Co-ord 0 } } { 2 2 } { } { } INFORM IF THEN OBJ-> DROP R->C 3 ROLLD R->C LINE DEG 0 1000 XRNG 0 500 YRNG { } PVIEW END THEN 4 DROPN END >> === Subject: Where is ROM 2.14 Went looking for the 2.14 on HPCalc but its not in the list of roms and searching for 2.14 doesn't find it. Is the ROM removed? -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Graves RKBA! bgraves@ix.netcom.com === Subject: Re: Where is ROM 2.14 posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Went looking for the 2.14 on HPCalc but its not in the list of roms and > searching for 2.14 doesn't find it. > Is the ROM removed? > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Bill Graves æ RKBA! > bgra...@ix.netcom.com The description has been changed, now says ROM2.14 BETA :-( http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=7097 - Gaak - === Subject: Re: Where is ROM 2.14 posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Went looking for the 2.14 on HPCalc but its not in the list of roms and > searching for 2.14 doesn't find it. > Is the ROM removed? > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Bill Graves æ RKBA! > bgra...@ix.netcom.com Me too... but Google find it http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=7097 - Gaak - === Subject: Re: Transfer of HP48GX programs to HP 50g >> If IR transfer works at all, use Kermit in ascii mode only, >> and set HP50G to Approximate mode (to receive integer-valued reals ... > Is it possible transfer data from 48GX to 50g using IR port? > I tried to do this in different ways but no succeed. > I read on the internet that the protocols used in the two calculators > (48gx = UART & 50 = IrDA) are incompatible. It's not the protocols, but the IR power (and even more important, the deliberately limited receiver sensitivity) of each calculator, which make it difficult. If you know exactly where the transmit/receive LEDs and sensors are, behind the rather opaque dark plastic covers, you could try aligning them and putting them as close as they can get, or even remove one or both covers. Or, try finding an IR booster, such as was once sold as a TV remote control power booster, said to have been a brainchild of a chap named Steve Wozniak, but equally difficult to find nowadays (these were, however, for transmission in one direction only, hence might not permit the bi-directional data exchange needed for file transfer protocols). One can also certainly print the programs to one of the few printers which understand the proprietary (and different) printing protocol, provided that the programs are printable (UserRPL). Or transfer directly by serial cable, or indirectly to a computer (perhaps while emulating a calculator), etc. You can even use the HP48 editor to display, and re-type on either a computer or another calculator, under the guise of an excercise for the eyes and fingers :) Any programs obtained from external sources (e.g. from www.hpcalc.org) can just be re-downloaded from those sources. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Transfer of HP48GX programs to HP 50g > > Is it possible transfer data from 48GX to 50g using IR port? > > I tried to do this in different ways but no succeed. > > It's not the protocols, but the IR power (and even more important, > the deliberately limited receiver sensitivity) of each calculator, > which make it difficult. As I recall, it may be both. I think that the original intent was to support transfers between the two by infrared, but because of the restricted IR power, it wasn't going to work unless they were impractically close. So for this reason, I think HP removed support for the protocol as well, since there was no reason for it to even be around if the hardware didn't support it. I could be wrong, but if this is true, then even an IR booster won't be enough to make a 50g and a 48GX communicate via infrared. After all, the Transfer menu lets you choose IrDA but not HP-IR. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: Transfer of HP48GX programs to HP 50g > I think that the original intent was to support transfers between the two by > infrared, but because of the restricted IR power, it wasn't going to work > unless they were impractically close. So for this reason, I think HP > removed support for the protocol as well, since there was no reason for it > to even be around if the hardware didn't support it. What protocol? SIR (serial over IR) physical layer protocol? What's its replacement, then? > I could be wrong, but if this is true, then even an IR booster won't be > enough to make a 50g and a 48GX communicate via infrared. After all, > the Transfer menu lets you choose IrDA but not HP-IR. IrDA has a higher level data protocol, but what's the physical layer? It would appear to be impossible not to implement SIR, because of this: Transmission rates fall into three broad categories: SIR,MIR, and FIR. Serial Infrared (SIR) speeds cover those transmission speeds normally supported by an RS-232 port (9600 bit/s, 19.2 kbit/s, 38.4 kbit/s, 57.6 kbit/s, 115.2 kbit/s). Since the lowest common denominator for all devices is 9600 bit/s, all discovery and negotiation is performed at this baud rate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_Data_Association I originally had the impresssion that IrDA is to HP calculators as HP Basic is to those same calculators (nothing whatsoever to do with Basic :) But I could be wrong -- figure out what Cyrille means here: Does old HP IR protocol mean the redeye printer protocol? Or SIR? providing a definitive answer, but I can't find it. James M Prange: (all speeds mentioned still fall within above SIR range) Here's one by TW: But -34 is the print via [redeye] IR(clear) or via wire(set) flag, and via wire actually means via what flag -33 indicates (originally SIR if flag -33 is set); flags -33 and -78 are the only flags selecting how transfers (not printing) are done. The mandatory IrLAP (Infrared Link Access Protocol) is the second layer of the IrDA specifications... The mandatory IrLMP (Infrared Link Management Protocol) is the third layer of the IrDA specifications... Are either of those layers implemented in HP calculators? No? Then there ain't no IrDA in them calculators! -- === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=y6ooGwkAAACoZd171Nq6oGIjQC5mB4Q9 .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > Hey, I believe I have found the problem. æI completely wiped out my 49G > > +, factory settings, except RPN mode set and the 2. STO worked!!!! > > My clock was off all the time. :-( > > TW Nothing to do with the clock, or flags. Flash banks have been renumbered. The odd behavior described throughout this thread is consistent with symptoms that could happen as side effects of this. You need to flash that -u rom, but use a hex editor to increase by one the flash bank number that's at offset 0x101 at all user flash banks, starting from bank 8 and up. Do that for all user banks and flash it. Then flash 2.14 and it should work fine. The best would be to generate a new rom image with the full flash, similar to the -u rom but with the proper bank numbers for rom 2.14. Of course, if you want to go back to 2.09, you need to do a full reflash with an older '-u' rom in order to restore the original numbering scheme. So, it's not a bug in the rom, just a new feature that should've been documented before release. It is unfortunate that this rom was released (perhaps accidentally?) without a full flash image and a big warning for all users. This new feature should also break compatibility with the ARMToolbox and therefore all HPGCC 2.0 programs (anyone cares to test this?). And FlashTools will most likely get very confused by the new numbering scheme, so don't use with this rom (you've been warned). Claudio === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > This new feature should also break compatibility with the ARMToolbox > and therefore all HPGCC 2.0 programs (anyone cares to test this?). And > FlashTools will most likely get very confused by the new numbering > scheme, so don't use with this rom (you've been warned). A lot more programs will be affected if they really release a ROM with renumbered FlashBanks. Maybe we might get an explanation for this but IMHO they should keep compatibility with the old numbering even if this would mean that they would have to take away another FlashBank for the user. What does the user community gains if they break compatibility with a lot of already existing programs ? Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=y6ooGwkAAACoZd171Nq6oGIjQC5mB4Q9 .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > A lot more programs will be affected if they really release a ROM with > renumbered FlashBanks. I'm not sure that would be the case. I'd say only programs doing very low-level management of flash memory will break. Most programs should work without a problem using the API provided by the calculator. The have trouble. I'm not aware of any other programs out there that access flash banks at such low level. It's a bad practice, though necessary in very rare cases like ARMToolbox and FlashTools for obvious reasons. Are there really that many programs dealing with flash memory banks out there? Claudio === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > access flash banks at such low level. It's a bad practice, though > necessary in very rare cases like ARMToolbox and FlashTools for > obvious reasons. I know for certaain that the arm toolbox works fine, as well as HPGCC code. At least it did here. It looks after poking around in there that the streamsmart software has been placed in the area where the 49G bootloader was located previously (and hence Gaak's picture viewer didn't work). There also appears to be some additional stuff that almost looks like ARM code in there as well. Either way, it appears that the 49G support is, or will be, no more. Considering how JYA was always saying the ROM was completely full in most banks, that doesn't surprise me. TW === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=y6ooGwkAAACoZd171Nq6oGIjQC5mB4Q9 .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > access flash banks at such low level. It's a bad practice, though > > necessary in very rare cases like ARMToolbox and FlashTools for > > obvious reasons. > > I know for certaain that the arm toolbox works fine, as well as HPGCC > code. At least it did here. > > It looks after poking around in there that the streamsmart software > has been placed in the area where the 49G bootloader was located > previously (and hence Gaak's picture viewer didn't work). There also > appears to be some additional stuff that almost looks like ARM code in > there as well. Either way, it appears that the 49G support is, or will > be, no more. Considering how JYA was always saying the ROM was > completely full in most banks, that doesn't surprise me. > > TW If the Toolbox works, then my theory is simply wrong. Flash banks must then have the correct numbering scheme. There must be a real bug in there, then. I just wanted to believe that wasn't the case, but... Claudio === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 kirjoitti >> access flash banks at such low level. It's a bad practice, though >> necessary in very rare cases like ARMToolbox and FlashTools for >> obvious reasons. > > I know for certaain that the arm toolbox works fine, as well as HPGCC > code. At least it did here. > > It looks after poking around in there that the streamsmart software > has been placed in the area where the 49G bootloader was located > previously (and hence Gaak's picture viewer didn't work). There also > appears to be some additional stuff that almost looks like ARM code in > there as well. Either way, it appears that the 49G support is, or will > be, no more. Considering how JYA was always saying the ROM was > completely full in most banks, that doesn't surprise me. > > TW I will not mind if one more bank goes to new features OR perhaps HP releases new features as libraries? -- VPN === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 > Today I visited hpcalc.org and noticed ROM 2.14 was just added To echo Bill Graves, it's invisible from here, as of right now, neither in http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/rom/ nor in the additions section. http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=2.14 is also not very productive. Is there a Cheshire cat in the house? [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 >> Today I visited hpcalc.org and noticed ROM 2.14 was just added yes, I donloaded and installed it since it looked like an 'official' release. works fine, except a :2:bkup archive blew pretty spectacularly. can easily be repeated. fortunately I had a backup on SD... My 49G+ has a SN of 51505372 > http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=2.14 is also not very productive. today I learn that tis release got renamed to BETA. Hopefully it gets fixed soon, otherwise I have to go back to 2.09 in the meantime All the best Patrick === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=kINXRQoAAACwzeObbKzgkSilFR8cKfNC Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1) ; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; BCD2000; OfficeLiveConnector.1.3; OfficeLivePatch.0.0; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618; BCD2000),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > It might be worth also double checking the small font selection flags > in various combination with normal numbers, complex numbers, #based- > numbers, symbols/characters, exact rational results, and textbook > equations on the stack; as I don't recall the odd results I'm now > seeing. æNormal numbers now seems to be tied to checking > EqW:small stack disp while others like #based-numbers, and char/ > symbols seem to be tied to stack:small? No problems sofar, clock not displayed. === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > It might be worth also double checking the small font selection flags > > in various combination with normal numbers, complex numbers, #based- > > numbers, symbols/characters, exact rational results, and textbook > > equations on the stack; as I don't recall the odd results I'm now > > seeing. æNormal numbers now seems to be tied to checking > > EqW:small stack disp while others like #based-numbers, and char/ > > symbols seem to be tied to stack:small? > > No problems sofar, clock not displayed. Strange, not me: (in R= mode) If I place 0 'X' #1h x^3 on the stack, then set: only Stack:Small => everything small, as expected. add Stack:Textbook => 0 and x^3 both become enlarged? add EqN:Small Stack Disp => everything small again? del Stack:Textbook => everything still small, as expected. del Stack:Small => everything large, as expected. add Stack:Textbook => 0 and x^3 become small, 'X' and #1h remain large? This is very strange. I expect: Stack:Textbook => to enable display of Textbook EqW's on stack. Stack:Small => everything on the stack small, except Textbook EqW's. EqW:Small Stack Disp => make TextBook EqW's on stack small. EqW:Small => make edit display of TextBook EqW's small. (this is no longer the case, as I recalled it had been) === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) In summary, normal numeric results are being incorrectly tied to flags meant exclusively to control the size of Textbook EqW's. (regardless of clock display it seems) === Subject: Re: StopWatch-C posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I found the problem. My MLP is using TESTMSG + SW_Image + SW_ETime since there never was a StopWatch program for the 49G. This has been fixed in the upcoming version 1.81 of the MLP, so if you want to use StopWatch-C and the MLP please upgrade to version 1.81 of the MLP. PSP+ and PALL work fine if you do not set a baud rate higher than 38400. But IIRC there is no printer that supports the 50G at a baud rate of 38400 or higher. Also a new version of CompressionAid is available which allows to choose between BZ49 and BZ2. StopWatch-C and CompressionAid are free programs, the MLP is not free as this is a commercial program. All updates are available on my site. Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] > this new ROM is available for HP49G too.. Isn't it for HPGCC, and no longer possible to use on 49G? (real Saturn CPU, no ARM CPU used by HPGCC) No files relating to HP49G or emulator are included in the 2.14 download, and the pictures are only in the locked boot block of a 49G (also reproduced in Emu48 ROM files), whereas the ARM-based calcs have a Saturn emulator in ROM (and different self-test and ROM update code), and no pictures, IIRC. The Equation libraries for versions 2.09 and 2.10 were made completely independent of ROM version, so why now are they declared dependent again? (and if they are, then why not return to the larger Independent EqnData.lib was as of 2006/02/28, and last independent EqnLib.lib was as of 2006.11.01 (I don't recall what was fixed from 2006/02/28, but no doubt something extremely minor). And of course, requiring a complete ROM reload, but without a complete ROM reload file, is a slight oversight :) What ever happens to all supported entry points, ROMPTRs, FLASHPTRs? If flag meanings have actually changed, one might start to wonder about everything else, no? [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) sorry, but I can not resist this little side blow ;-) The free Equation libraries by HP has been causing troubles for the user since its first initial re-release for the HP 49G. Free in this case means that you have to work around the known and unknown bugs, required settings (Soft menu, system flag -117) and fight with incompatibilities each time either a new version of the free Equation libraries is released or each time a new ROM is released. Free in this case means that you have to spend a lot of time (especially new users) until you have found out all this details and then finally you can work with it. Now, everyone is free to figure out the value and the cost he/she has to spend for this free Equation libraries. On the other side, my commercial TreeBrowser with the data set for the equation library is running stable for years, even before HP re- released the free Equation Lib for the HP 49G and with each ROM from ROM 1.19-6 upwards. And installing updates is very easy through the SD card and does not break compatibility. Additionally you have the opportunity to create you own equation library fast and easily with the included tutorial. Conclusion: TANSTAAFL Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] > sorry, but I can not resist this little side blow ;-) It would have been wiser if you had. Warning: fact-checking follows. > The free Equation libraries by HP has been causing troubles > for the user since its first initial re-release for the HP 49G. When was that? > Free in this case means that you have to work around the known > and unknown bugs, required settings (Soft menu, system flag -117) It has never been a required setting, only caused a trivial issue with one way of starting it (APPS), which caused an overreactive note to be written that it was required, and even that tiny flaw (in only one of the startup methods) was since fixed by JYA. > fight with incompatibilities each time either a new version of the > free Equation libraries is released or each time a new ROM is > released. It came built into each 49G+ rom, automatically installed with ROM until some point where a completely independent library was made (which IIRC works even on old 49G), and now, by the way, also comes with an extra Periodic table library (is that in yours also? Well, even Raymond's periodic table is both better and faster than HP's, but also still free). > Free in this case means that you have to spend a lot of time > (especially new users) until you have found out all this details and > then finally you can work with it. Now, everyone is free to figure out > the value and the cost he/she has to spend for this free Equation > libraries. Ridiculous propaganda; it came built right into ROM itself, and it worked, even though it was just the original HP48 library, not modifiable, also integrated with built-in EQNLIB and direct-access SOLVEQN commands (which never required flag -117 and still don't) > On the other side, my commercial TreeBrowser with the data set for the > equation library is running stable for years, even before HP re- > released the free Equation Lib for the HP 49G and with each ROM > from ROM 1.19-6 upwards. Contributed alternative equation library systems have meanwhile also existed for years, are user modifiable, and of course, unlike yours, are free, as is the perfectly functioning (and integrated) original HP set (so who needs your copy of that?) > And installing updates is very easy through the SD card > and does not break compatibility. Compatibility? Even when built right into ROM updates? I guess you don't know that the final versions of the original HP (fixed) library are just ordinary libraries, which can be installed like any other libraries, equally simplistically via an SD card, and are compatible with all ROM versions (at least through 2.10; whatever is being played around with for HPGCC isn't clear yet), as well as backwards compatible even with 49G. > Additionally you have the opportunity to create you own equation library > fast and easily with the included tutorial. Even my posted User Equation Library in UserRPL (free, with included source code :) has this ability and simplicity, although of course even the native calculator abilities are quite sufficient to manage collections of equations without help, organized by anyone who isn't afraid to read the manual. > Conclusion: TANSTAAFL www.hpcalc.org has been attracting 100% free (and often outstanding) contrbuted software for all its years of existence, almost all with included source code and no restrictions, including various equation library software. This approach of only knocking HP's original (static) library (and omitting all the others that are available) is certainly less worthy than would be showing how nice and slick your own interface is, thus somehow justifying its cost, but you are so preoccupied with finding faults that don't even exist that your own product's most worthwhile features haven't even been mentioned. Yours is also tied to a specific calculator, by serial number (which my calculators do not happen to have, so I guess I could not even use your library, except perhaps by running the free emulator version on my PPC) and require dependence on you for replacement/upgrade calculators, and, come to think of it, can I back yours up by just copying it to my X-drive or emailing it to my Gmail account? I'm sure your product has commendable features; why not try running a more positive campaign where you show them off, in place of simply trying to badmouth everything else, with a barrage of general falsehoods. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello John, > as is the perfectly functioning (and integrated) original HP set > (so who needs your copy of that?) Every one who is a not a native American speaker but speaks one of the (currently) four supported language. Some of you Americans tend to believe that you are the hub of the world... Well, letÇs not get into this. > I guess you don't know You should not guess, try to stick to the facts, especially if you are using a headline like fact-checking follows. I think, I have proven my knowledge about the 49/50 series and about libraries... I do not have any interest in knocking HP's original (static) library (and omitting all the others that are available), my only intent was to point out that you get what you pay for. I appreciate any software written for the 49/50 series, but one should keep in mind that there is usually no support for free software. > organized by anyone who isn't afraid to read the manual. Apparently you have not read the documents I provide for my products on my website. > I'm sure your product has commendable features; > why not try running a more positive campaign where you show them off, Again, all of this is available on my website, you can even download ready to use EMU49 Document (*.E49) in five languages. But if you not even bother to read the manuals it will not be of any help. So let us continue this discussion once you have acquired a little bit of the stuff I have been doing or otherwise we leave it the way it is. > Yours is also tied to a specific calculator, by serial number Again, this is something I am not going to discuss in public. Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] X > > Yours is also tied to a specific calculator, by serial number > Again, this is something I am not going to discuss in public. > > Andreas > http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de > Why? 1st advertising then la casa nostra? ??? === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > JHM > aren't available (e.g. porting HP48 apps to HP49/50 series). Now, guess who just ported the StopWatch program... > JHM > but I just can't see promoting software > JHM > via various negative statements that > JHM > don't hold up to scrutiny, > JHM > which is the point I address here. Once again, my goal was not to promote my software ! Also we could continue to argue who is wrong or right but I do not see any point in it and I do not want to waste my time with this. There were and there are still problems in HPÇs EQNLIB while it is beeing ported to the 49G. LetÇs leave it this way... > Why? > 1st advertising then > la casa nostra? > ??? VPN, you know that software. I am not going to discuss *why* the software is tied to a specific calculator in public. However, you can install it on three machines, that should be sufficient for 99%. And, of course, I will exchange the software if you have to exchange your calc while it is under waranty. I have been very obliging with this, all I expect is the shipping is paid by the one who wants the software exchanged. Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] X > I am not going to discuss *why* the software is tied to a specific > calculator in public. You have the right to remain silent... ;-) === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] > there is usually no support for free software. In this newsgroup, there has been the best imaginable support for excellent free software -- Emu48 (once sold by its creator, now vastly improved and free from someone else), Debug4x (Bill Graves), the HPGCC people, numerous authors of the software on www.hpcalc.org (e.g. Raymond), and numerous others who step in and support software whose authors aren't available (e.g. porting HP48 apps to HP49/50 series). And Eric, rarely seen, but having built and maintained a magnificent (and free) support structure, which has let HP get away with providing almost none :) And Joe (silent prayer here :) There's also been the free software (ROM fixes) provided to HP by someone no longer paid by HP :) In other newsgroups, forums, and mailing lists, I have seen better support to product users (e.g. to Eudora users) coming from free helpers than ever came from the vendor. When you use well-developed software on an unchanging platform, the notion of needing constant support is also a slightly incongruous idea -- the hardware now readily declines and needs support (which it doesn't get), but not most of the software. There are material constraints when it comes to making material things, but many things are not so constrained, and many sources are indeed providing excellent and unmatchable software, supported from some other sources, yet free to you. On computers, I can't think of a single non-free web browser, except MS Internet Explorer, for which you have to buy Windows; some of these are supported solely by their vendors (who profit via other routes), and some via numerous plugin/widget authors, who keep adding creative features and value. You can offer particular values (e.g. fine design, well developed, superior interface, speed, various languages), and thus motivate buyers, but I just can't see promoting software via various negative statements that don't hold up to scrutiny, which is the point I address here. You reminded me of something I thought interesting: http://www.nirsoft.net http://www.nirsoft.net/awards.html http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/search my files.html (new) Nearly every (free) utility comes with a do it yourself translating system, as well as a number of translation files already furnished by other users. So who pays Nir Sofer? Perhaps the (few) ads on his site, I just don't know. http://www.softpedia.com/developer/Nir-Sofer-10197.html http://www.donationcoder.com/Forums/bb/index.php?topic=17195.msg152495 I've been giving away free help on various forums (and bits of software) for quite a while, and have been a full-time volunteer for over two decades, both receiving free stuff and giving free other stuff; perhaps I'm missing a whole lot, and will learn better in my next life :) Best wishes from a place which creates a great deal from nothing (as does the Creator, or whatever force does all the creating) http://www.mum.edu http://www.maharishischooliowa.org -[ ]- === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > there is usually no support for free software. > > In this newsgroup, there has been the best imaginable support > for excellent free software -- Emu48 (once sold by its creator, > now vastly improved and free from someone else), Debug4x (Bill Graves), > the HPGCC people, > numerous authors of the software onwww.hpcalc.org(e.g. Raymond), > and numerous others who step in and support software whose authors > aren't available (e.g. porting HP48 apps to HP49/50 series). MyDonations==0 IF Donations==0 THEN print('patience') END; IF Donations!=0 THEN print('happy') END; ...however, Just I need a little patience :-D - Gaak - === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > this new ROM is available for HP49G too.. > > Isn't it for HPGCC, and no longer possible to use > on 49G? (real Saturn CPU, no ARM CPU used by HPGCC) > > No files relating to HP49G or emulator > are included in the 2.14 download, > and the pictures are only in the locked boot block of a 49G > (also reproduced in Emu48 ROM files), > whereas the ARM-based calcs have a Saturn emulator in ROM > (and different self-test and ROM update code), > and no pictures, IIRC. > > The Equation libraries for versions 2.09 and 2.10 > were made completely independent of ROM version, > so why now are they declared dependent again? > (and if they are, then why not return to the larger > > Independent EqnData.lib was as of 2006/02/28, and > last independent EqnLib.lib was as of 2006.11.01 > (I don't recall what was fixed from 2006/02/28, > but no doubt something extremely minor). > > And of course, requiring a complete ROM reload, > but without a complete ROM reload file, > is a slight oversight :) > > What ever happens to all supported entry points, > ROMPTRs, FLASHPTRs? æIf flag meanings have actually changed, > one might start to wonder about everything else, no? > > [r->] [OFF] I don't understand completely... My programs (such as TopSecret) are written for ARM-based and Saturn machines, so, the supported models are: 49G(Blue), 49g+(Gold), 50g (Black). The previous real ROM2.09 supports 49G and 50g (obviously 49g+ too). When I started write TopSecret, I see that ROM2.09 was valid for 49G & 50g, how?... Commands comparison like ROMUPLOAD contains the follow code: :: CK0 IsARM? case :: error message ; DOLLCD TURNMENUOFF (... Saturn code) ; Please, this video shows part of TopSecret running on real 50g ROM2.09, and my new GREYscale viewer, available soon. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDLgX3Yk2Q So, 50g ROM2.09 contains the pictures and another things from 49G (Saturn). TopSecret is written in Debug4x, no HPGCC code, no ARM code. - Gaak - === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] Gustavo Portales kirjoitti X > My programs (such as TopSecret) are written for ARM-based and Saturn > machines, so, the supported models are: 49G(Blue), 49g+(Gold), 50g > (Black). > The previous real ROM2.09 supports 49G and 50g (obviously 49g+ too). > > When I started write TopSecret, I see that ROM2.09 was valid for 49G & > 50g, how?... X > Please, this video shows part of TopSecret running on real 50g > ROM2.09, and my new GREYscale viewer, available soon. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDLgX3Yk2Q > So, 50g ROM2.09 contains the pictures and another things from 49G > (Saturn). > > TopSecret is written in Debug4x, no HPGCC code, no ARM code. > > - Gaak - Can you test it with new ROM, please? both in EMU and in a physical calc, also old 49G Could HPGCC inside gurus test the new ROM with both 2.0 and 3.0 software (if possible) in a physical 50g/49g+ (?48gII?) please?! Results? === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] > The previous real ROM2.09 supports 49G and 50g (obviously 49g+ too). > When I started write TopSecret, > I see that ROM2.09 was valid for 49G & 50g, how?... ARM calc ROMs (thru 2.10) are made by assembling a Saturn-only ROM, which is also produced for Emu48, which emulates a real Saturn machine. Then that is scanned for certain sequences, which are replaced by opcodes that function only in an ARM calc (recognized only by the Saturn emulator which is written in native ARM code), and this is made into a version for updating ROM on the ARM-based calculators, which I thought includes both the current ARM emulator (e.g. v92) and the modified Saturn ROM (e.g. 2.09) [any correction welcomed], and occasionally also over-extends into the first user flash bank (where inseparable Equation library versions used to be overwritten along with each ROM version, until ROM-independent libraries were made), and an even longer file is sometimes made which can write the entire flash, except for the separate boot loader (although that, too, can be rewritten). > Commands comparison like ROMUPLOAD contains the follow code: > :: > CK0 > IsARM? > case :: error message ; > DOLLCD TURNMENUOFF (... Saturn code) > ; Since some bits of the originally assembled Saturn ROM were overlaid by opcodes understood only by the emulator in an ARM-based calc, it would not be very nice to allow an ARM-based calc to send its ARM-patched ROM to an HP49G, although it is fine to allow another 49G to do that (or even Emu48, which also has the pure Saturn ROM, except when even Emu48 has any patches, which are NG for the real 49G). There is also the small matter that ROMUPLOAD (to 49G) has to be done via serial port, which 49G+ didn't have, and 50G comes without a cable or level-shifter. > this video shows part of TopSecret running on real 50g > ROM2.09, and my new GREYscale viewer, available soon. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDLgX3Yk2Q Which faces made the baby cry most? :) > So, 50g ROM2.09 contains the pictures and another things > from 49G (Saturn). http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/faq/#ss5.8 [49G only] > TopSecret is written in Debug4x, no HPGCC code, no ARM code. These images were in the first 64K block in the 49G flash chip, which was normally locked and never re-writeable, also never supplied in any ROM flash files: I never heard that these pictures existed in the 49G+/50G (so indeed, you have uncovered a well-hidden secret :) So where are they? In the boot loader area? In an area of the original calc not even in a boot loader ROM file? I do not recall these being available using any keys on ARM calcs (or are there more secrets, waiting for another Easter to be revealed?) Is it wasted space in an ARM-based calc, or is the situation like the 49G, where there was nothing else which could be done with the space, given that not all of the locked 64K boot block was needed for its function? [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? > > I think everyone will agree that HP is no longer the high-end company it > > once was. It hasn't been for many years. Just look at the manuals. > > Compare a 25C or 67/97 manual with a 48 or 50g. In the old manuals, the > > colors, layout, language, spiral binding, etc. make the information easy > > to > > assimilate. The new manuals are all black & white and poorly laid out. > > You > > have to dig to find useful information - they're just plain hard on the > > eyes. HP used to be the world leader in programmable calculators. Now > > they > > just want to compete with Casio. I think the marketing types took the > > reins from the engineers. I recently told someone at HP that I think the > > ones that innovate and lead are usually not the ones that make the most > > money, but they usually make the most history. It's a sacrifice you must > > be willing to take. It's more of a leader/entrepeneur philosophy than an > > accounting or marketing one more accustomed to just making more money. > > With threats of lawsuits hanging over them, publicly traded US companies > must maximize short-term profits for investors. Making history doesn't > count at all. Maybe that's why our economy is in the shape it is. > > Tom Lake With threats of lawsuits hanging over them, publicly traded US companies must maximize short-term profits for investors. The motive again is greed. We have a sick society with people devoting thier every waking moment to the persuit of more money. If a person is healthy, has a place to live, clothes to ware, food to eat, and reliable transportation, what more does anyone deserve? What more should they want? There is a mistaken notion that wealth makes for a secure satisfying happy life. It doesn't. Just ask Bernie Madoff. When we as a society start condeming greed, then our economy will turn around. You are very correct. What's worse our socio-political system is setup to promote greed and allow the greedy types to assume positions of power. My motto: Never allow someone who wants power to have it. Support criteria based democracy. Any other type of democracy just degrades into a popularity contest. -J === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? > > You are very correct. > > What's worse our socio-political system is setup to promote greed and > allow the greedy types to assume positions of power. that is the current status everywhere > My motto: Never allow someone who wants power to have it. Support > criteria based democracy. Any other type of democracy just degrades > into a popularity contest. BUT that is exactly what the demonycratic voting system means === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? Mike Bryant kirjoitti > The environMENTAL movement is the real reason that ALL manufacturers > have abandoned reasonable paper based documentation, like good > manuals. The cost of a good manual far exceeds the cost of the > calculator itself. The same is true of housing and construction in > general. In America, the price of the lumber alone to build a typical > house is about 1/3 the price of the house (and we're talking yellow > pine, a very low quality wood). Not to mention all the wild fires from > undercut, diseased forests that have become hazards from not being > able to remove dead/diseased trees and undergrowth because it is now > illegal to remove any of it. > > So, thank all the tree huggers out there for the decline of quality, > paper based docs. You work for HP? Cause you really sound like someone trying to pass the blame... Sorry, but the blame for the lack of paper manuals rest solely with HP. VPN PS: if anyone has any opinions - I'll crush them! 4 I'm the KING here!! All text above is sarcasm - and for a reason... === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions > As one last observation, it seems inconsistent that the real and > imaginary parts of complex numbers are displayed separated by a comma Just set flag -51, then they're not :) When you enter purely numeric complex numbers, however, in RPN mode, you may input them with spaces separating the parts, instead of a comma -- how's that for convenience? > Personally would likely prefer they either be > simply separated by a space or sign if in parens, or the signed > imaginary part pref/suffixed by an i; for example (3.2+4.5) (3.2+4.5) equals 7.7 :) It's just a parenthesized algebraic expression, which may of course appear within more complex expressions, with complex this time meaning how many more parts and operators, rather than in a 2-dimensional number field :) '(3.2 +4.5)' [with an inserted space] is still 7.7, because spaces between elements of algebraic expressions have no significance. Set the calculator in ALGebraic mode, however, then enter (3 4) and obtain the (correct) result: 12 (due to implied multiplication of factors separated by spaces) Ready to settle for a comma instead? > there appears to be no method by which rational imaginary numbers > may be specified within parens, i.e. (-2/3 +4/5) '(-2/3,4/5)' is a valid (algebraic, complex-valued) expression. Perform ->NUM on it and get (-.666666666667,.8) Clearing flag -27, by the way, displays algebraic expressions of the form 'X+Y*i' as '(X,Y)' It might be confusing, however, to display complex number objects like (3,4) as '3+4*i' because the latter appears as if an algebraic expression (object type 9), rather than as a complex number object (type 1), but we generally want each object type to have its own unique syntax, and thus be distinguishable from other types. Note that when '3.+4.*i' is displayed, due to flag -27, as '(3.,4.)' it is surrounded by quotes ['] which show that this is still an algebraic expression object (type 9), rather than a complex number object (type 1). Hmm.. if our brain is the center of all our awareness and activity, would it not be better located more centrally, rather than at a far end of our entire body? Can we have this changed in our next release? In the light of the whole, there are reasons for the relationships between parts, which fall into a greater unity of cosmic purpose, as our own experience grows to encompass more of the totality of all the intelligence in the entire cosmos. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions John H Meyers kirjoitti viestiss.8a:op.uqw14yumnn735j@miu.edu... X > Note that when '3.+4.*i' is displayed, due to flag -27, > as '(3.,4.)' it is surrounded by quotes ['] which show that > this is still an algebraic expression object (type 9), > rather than a complex number object (type 1). Now [r->] [OFF] the record I'd say: only in RPN Interactive stack environment when [MODE] |DISP| Stack V Textbook is selected e.g. -79 CF === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > As one last observation, it seems inconsistent that the real and > > imaginary parts of complex numbers are displayed separated by a comma > > Just set flag -51, then they're not :) > > When you enter purely numeric complex numbers, however, in RPN mode, > you may input them with spaces separating the parts, > instead of a comma -- how's that for convenience? > > > Personally would likely prefer they either be > > simply separated by a space or sign if in parens, or the signed > > imaginary part pref/suffixed by an i; for example (3.2+4.5) > > (3.2+4.5) equals 7.7 æ:) > > It's just a parenthesized algebraic expression, > which may of course appear within more complex expressions, > with complex this time meaning how many more parts and operators, > rather than in a 2-dimensional number field :) > > '(3.2 +4.5)' [with an inserted space] is still 7.7, > because spaces between elements of algebraic expressions > have no significance. > > Set the calculator in ALGebraic mode, however, > then enter (3 4) and obtain the (correct) result: 12 > (due to implied multiplication of factors separated by spaces) > > Ready to settle for a comma instead? > > > there appears to be no method by which rational imaginary numbers > > may be specified within parens, i.e. (-2/3 +4/5) > > '(-2/3,4/5)' is a valid (algebraic, complex-valued) expression. > > Perform ->NUM on it and get (-.666666666667,.8) > > Clearing flag -27, by the way, displays algebraic expressions > of the form 'X+Y*i' as '(X,Y)' > > It might be confusing, however, to display complex number objects > like (3,4) as '3+4*i' because the latter appears as if > an algebraic expression (object type 9), > rather than as a complex number object (type 1), > but we generally want each object type to have its own unique syntax, > and thus be distinguishable from other types. > > Note that when '3.+4.*i' is displayed, due to flag -27, > as '(3.,4.)' it is surrounded by quotes ['] which show that > this is still an algebraic expression object (type 9), > rather than a complex number object (type 1). > > Hmm.. if our brain is the center of all our awareness and activity, > would it not be better located more centrally, > rather than at a far end of our entire body? > > Can we have this changed in our next release? > > In the light of the whole, there are reasons for the relationships > between parts, which fall into a greater unity of cosmic purpose, > as our own experience grows to encompass more of the totality > of all the intelligence in the entire cosmos. > > [r->] [OFF] cosmos. :) Although don't understand why 3+4i need be considered an algebraic expression object vs. merely the textural representation of a complex number just as (3,4) appears to be? (However, in the grand scheme of things, I can live with (3,4) just fine; as it's much less important than wishing to see other functional idiosyncrasies cleanly remedied.) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions > '(-2/3,4/5)' is a valid (algebraic, complex-valued) expression. And I should have said that if you _set_ flag -27, it then displays as '-2/3+4/5*i' So there -- all (or most) wishes have been granted (at least the feasible ones), by the far-sighted original designers of the HP28/48/49/50 series :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > As one last observation, it seems inconsistent that the real and > imaginary parts of complex numbers are displayed separated by a comma; > as it seems superfluous, at least using rpn; and just makes them > visually cluttered. Personally would likely prefer they either be > simply separated by a space or sign if in parens, or the signed > imaginary part pref/suffixed by an i; for example (3.2+4.5), 3.2+4.5i > or possibly 3.2+i4.5 to be more consistent with its complex symbolic > representation mode, and be more familiar to some. Somewhat related, > there appears to be no method by which rational imaginary numbers may > be specified within parens, i.e. (-2/3 +4/5), but seemingly capable if > being composed as -2/3+4/5i if pressing comp after entry of a value's > real part enabled it's imaginary part to be concatenated. In (RE, IM) form, the complex number is being represented as a point in the complex plane. In RPN mode, you can enter the complex number using a space as a separator (saving a keystroke) and the calculator will automatically replace it with a comma. S.C. === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > As one last observation, it seems inconsistent that the real and > > imaginary parts of complex numbers are displayed separated by a comma; > > as it seems superfluous, at least using rpn; and just makes them > > visually cluttered. Personally would likely prefer they either be > > simply separated by a space or sign if in parens, or the signed > > imaginary part pref/suffixed by an i; for example (3.2+4.5), 3.2+4.5i > > or possibly 3.2+i4.5 to be more consistent with its complex symbolic > > representation mode, and be more familiar to some. Somewhat related, > > there appears to be no method by which rational imaginary numbers may > > be specified within parens, i.e. (-2/3 +4/5), but seemingly capable if > > being composed as -2/3+4/5i if pressing comp after entry of a value's > > real part enabled it's imaginary part to be concatenated. > > In (RE, IM) form, the complex number is being represented as a point > in the complex plane. In RPN mode, you can enter the complex number > using a space as a separator (saving a keystroke) and the calculator > will automatically replace it with a comma. > > S.C. Yes, just meant that (merely in my opinion) that the comma just seems to unnecessary add clutter to the display of complex values; and that there may be other more friendly representation formats. Personally I tend to use fix to reduce the displayed width of numbers, although would prefer to use standard if I could limit displayable digits, and have a thousands separator. === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > - Along a similar vein, it would be awful nice if plotting were > extended to enable both real and imaginary components of a function to > be graphed simultaneously with hypothetically the imaginary part (or > arbitrary second function) being drawn as a dotted line along with the > real part of the primarily specified function being drawn with a solid > line. You can plot the real (RE) and imaginary (IM) parts of a function separately already. Just store RE(function) and IM(function) as two different expressions in EQ. > - Further, it would be very nice to see another option for equation > display format, possibly called Symbolic, where like TextBook, it > pretty prints equations; but rather than cluttering up the display > with tall fractions and roots, it instead favors the compact display > of exponentials. For example: > > x^(a/b)/y^(c/d) => > > æ a/b æ æ-c/d > x æ æ* æy > > not: > > æ a > æ - > æ b > x > --- > æ c > æ - > æ d > y > > or other similarly horrid textbook formatted equation with roots when > rational exponentials are specified. Agreed. That's why one of my soft keys in CST is a program which, among other things, turns Textbook mode off. Turning off Textbook mode also displays complex numbers more efficiently when in STD (12 significant figures) mode. With Textbook off and multi-line on, the real part of the complex occupies the row where stack level 2 normally is and the imaginary part in the row beneath it. With Textbook on, the ordered pair runs off the right edge of the screen and you waste keystrokes to view it. S.C. === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > - Along a similar vein, it would be awful nice if plotting were > > extended to enable both real and imaginary components of a function to > > be graphed simultaneously with hypothetically the imaginary part (or > > arbitrary second function) being drawn as a dotted line along with the > > real part of the primarily specified function being drawn with a solid > > line. > > You can plot the real (RE) and imaginary (IM) parts of a function > separately already. Just store RE(function) and IM(function) as two > different expressions in EQ. Yes understood, however I was just attempting to suggest ways the firmware may be improved to make it easer for the use. (being able to simply plot both RE and IM components simultaneously for a single specified function, is a lot easer than having to otherwise enter multiple equations and select simultaneous, and even then as both plots are drawn with solid lines, it's nearly impossible to tell the two apart, which is why a dotted line for the secondary plot would be helpful). I believe? > > - Further, it would be very nice to see another option for equation > > display format, possibly called Symbolic, where like TextBook, it > > pretty prints equations; but rather than cluttering up the display > > with tall fractions and roots, it instead favors the compact display > > of exponentials. For example: > > > x^(a/b)/y^(c/d) => > > > æ a/b æ æ-c/d > > x æ æ* æy > > > not: > > > æ a > > æ - > > æ b > > x > > --- > > æ c > > æ - > > æ d > > y > > > or other similarly horrid textbook formatted equation with roots when > > rational exponentials are specified. > > Agreed. That's why one of my soft keys in CST is a program which, > among other things, turns Textbook mode off. Turning off Textbook mode > also displays complex numbers more efficiently when in STD (12 > significant figures) mode. With Textbook off and multi-line on, the > real part of the complex occupies the row where stack level 2 normally > is and the imaginary part in the row beneath it. With Textbook on, the > ordered pair runs off the right edge of the screen and you waste > keystrokes to view it. > > S.C. === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions > being able to simply plot both RE and IM components simultaneously > for a single specified function (of course, the independent variable then becomes invisible :) Or 3D plots? > modes such as exact/approx, real/complex, etc. should be merely > treated as being the preferred form of calculation/results, > but not absolutely required to perform a specified calculation Is the CAS being entirely rewritten? One would think this to require as much. One can turn off the dialogs, however, and just let the CAS do what it wants, via -120 SF You can also restore whatever flags you want to keep, automatically after every keyboard-initiated action, using a 'BetaENTER' program: One thing you apparently can not prevent, however, is the CAS needing to delete some variables (because it can't seem to refrain from evaluating all variables immediately, all the time, whereas the HP48GX had been so much more self-controlled about that :) The CAS doesn't even always correctly predict which variables need deleting; a best effort attempt was made by an XC program (and a menu builder for favorite CAS commands to always use XC), which renames all likely variables to try to hide them from the CAS, then renames them back afterwards, as well as also performing the far more trivial task of restoring original flags. http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=xc49 If you don't worry about 'X' (or other common variables) being deleted, then the previous, simpler program works fine to preserve flags, or just give in and do CASCFG to begin with, which makes the CAS live happily ever after; in fact, sometimes you can't get correct answers without having done this anyway, even though the CAS may forget to ask :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions John H Meyers kirjoitti viestiss.8a:op.uqwzum0dnn735j@miu.edu... X You can also restore whatever flags you want to keep, automatically after every keyboard-initiated action, using a 'BetaENTER' program: What happened after ROM 1,19-3 really turns me [r->] [OFF] - we lost Vectored ENTER in ALG Mode === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions > What happened after ROM 1,19-3 > really turns me > we lost Vectored ENTER in ALG Mode It was already pretty lost anyway (couldn't really work properly). [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > being able to simply plot both RE and IM components simultaneously > > for a single specified function > > (of course, the independent variable then becomes invisible :) > > Or 3D plots? - fine by me, but with limited screen resolution it may be even more difficult to decipher. > > modes such as exact/approx, real/complex, etc. should be merely > > treated as being the preferred form of calculation/results, > > but not absolutely required to perform a specified calculation > > Is the CAS being entirely rewritten? > One would think this to require as much. - why? in general, CAS already tries to maintain/collect exact terms, and approx merely extends evaluation one level further, merging any remaining integer/real/complex numeric only terms; largely as today it seems; the only request is that the aforementioned flags not impede the evaluation of any given expression (as their seems no good reason to do so, nor does it seem that CAS requires them to be impeded). > One can turn off the dialogs, however, > and just let the CAS do what it wants, via -120 SF > > You can also restore whatever flags you want to keep, > automatically after every keyboard-initiated action, However as it's obviously been well recognized that such idiosyncrasies are bothersome enough to attempt to work around; wouldn't the best solution be to remedy the problem at its root; and avoid all the confusion it otherwise causes to it's users, and cripple it's broader adoption? (Ideally such work-arounds should not be required in the future, as otherwise only those sufficiently determined will not give up in frustration, leaving the rest to look elsewhere, to everyone's determent.) > One thing you apparently can not prevent, however, is the CAS > needing to delete some variables (because it can't seem to refrain > æfrom evaluating all variables immediately, all the time, whereas > the HP48GX had been so much more self-controlled about that :) > > The CAS doesn't even always correctly predict which variables > need deleting; a best effort attempt was made by an XC program > (and a menu builder for favorite CAS commands to always use XC), > which renames all likely variables to try to hide them from the CAS, > then renames them back afterwards, as well as also performing > the far more trivial task of restoring original flags.http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=xc49 > > If you don't worry about 'X' (or other common variables) being deleted, > then the previous, simpler program works fine to preserve flags, > or just give in and do CASCFG to begin with, > which makes the CAS live happily ever after; > in fact, sometimes you can't get correct answers > without having done this anyway, even though the CAS may forget to ask :) - Again thank you; however can't help but think it may be best to tweak CAS code to use it's own dedicated variable directory, to which it copies what ever it needs, and returns only what's expected, and thereby otherwise does what ever it wants in isolation? (thereby again possibly best solved at the root of the issue, although work-arounds are obviously helpful.) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions > in general, CAS already tries to maintain/collect exact terms, > and approx merely extends evaluation one level further, merging any > remaining integer/real/complex numeric only terms; largely as today > it seems; the only request is that the aforementioned flags not impede > the evaluation of any given expression (as their seems no good reason > to do so, nor does it seem that CAS requires them to be impeded). To dense for me to follow, but try the XQ command before CAS commands :) > I can't help but think it may be best to tweak CAS code Like the Boulder/Hoover Dam is just a tweak in a river :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_Dam To this day Boulder City is one of only two locations in Nevada not to allow gambling (and the Dam was completed more than two years ahead of schedule :) > to use its own dedicated variable directory, to which > it copies what ever it needs, and returns only what's expected, > and thereby otherwise does whatever it wants in isolation? Complete integration, rather than isolation, is a major strong point of the entire product. Remember Jacek Marchel? Here comparing TI with HP (in 1998-2001): A crippling constraint was a decision to be like TI, and to evaluate everything immediately, regardless of flag -3, which the HP48 always obeyed -- even variable names entered into form fields got evaluated, to begin with, so now we can't have any variables exist, that are also in a symbolic expression. You can create an empty directory and evaluate things in it, but the problem remains, because the variables can't exist in higher directories, either (and if you try to limit this via DoHere: or WithHidden then CAS commands won't execute). Despite all this, users manage well, particularly if they read the manuals, gain actual experience, and then see the big picture, rather than try to fill small potholes with dirt that comes only from digging others in the same road :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > in general, CAS already tries to maintain/collect exact terms, > > and approx merely extends evaluation one level further, merging any > > remaining æinteger/real/complex numeric only terms; largely as today > > it seems; the only request is that the aforementioned flags not impede > > the evaluation of any given expression (as their seems no good reason > > to do so, nor does it seem that CAS requires them to be impeded). > > To dense for me to follow, but try the XQ command before CAS commands :) > > > I can't help but think it may be best to tweak CAS code > > Like the Boulder/Hoover Dam is just a tweak in a river :) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover Dam > > To this day Boulder City is one of only two locations in Nevada > not to allow gambling > (and the Dam was completed more than two years ahead of schedule :) > > > to use its own dedicated variable directory, to which > > it copies what ever it needs, and returns only what's expected, > > and thereby otherwise does whatever it wants in isolation? > > Complete integration, rather than isolation, is a major strong point > of the entire product. > > > A crippling constraint was a decision to be like TI, > and to evaluate everything immediately, regardless of flag -3, > which the HP48 always obeyed -- even variable names entered > into form fields got evaluated, to begin with, > so now we can't have any variables exist, that are also in a symbolic expression. > > You can create an empty directory and evaluate things in it, > but the problem remains, because the variables can't exist > in higher directories, either (and if you try to limit this > via DoHere: or WithHidden then CAS commands won't execute). > > Despite all this, users manage well, particularly if they read the manuals, > gain actual experience, and then see the big picture, > rather than try to fill small potholes with dirt that comes only > æfrom digging others in the same road :) > > [r->] [OFF] Although there's no question that users well versed in circumventing the idiosyncrasies of the machine can largely achieve what they want; I'm simply only trying to suggest there may be things, which if refined, would likely improve it's ease of use, being particularly important to newer users. If there are no such refinements which it's ardent users can agree upon; then unfortunately I agree that no further discussion is likely necessary. On the other hand, if such refinements may exist, then it's likely well worth their identification and ranking; so the apparently newly active development team may give them consideration, and attempt to implement them within their ability to refine its historical code base and available time/resources. I'm hopeful that there are at least a few things, which if tweaked, would help remove their otherwise necessity to be worked-around, even for experienced users. And similarly hopeful that there's at least a few things that if tweaked can help new users more easily and/or intuitively achieve their goals. I've simply tried to identify a few, which may neither be appropriate nor the most optimal to attend to first. What tweaks/wishes should be on such a list, if any? (or are HP's resources better used elsewhere?) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions X > You can plot the real (RE) and imaginary (IM) parts of a function > separately already. Just store RE(function) and IM(function) as two > different expressions in EQ. Yes understood, however I was just attempting to suggest ways the firmware may be improved to make it easer for the use. (being able to simply plot both RE and IM components simultaneously for a single specified function, is a lot easer than having to otherwise enter multiple equations and select simultaneous, and even then as both plots are drawn with solid lines, it's nearly impossible to tell the two apart, which is why a dotted line for the secondary plot would be helpful). I believe? X I hate it when Outlook leaves out > I suggest COLO(U)R plotting It's time to move a Pocket PC and Color LCD plus graphics accelerator for faster plots (and games) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > It's time to move a Pocket PC and Color LCD > plus graphics accelerator for faster plots > (and games) Although, no one makes one with a usable calculator keyboard, to my knowledge. (Otherwise I might consider it, but not otherwise; so in the mean time I'm more than content to just see the 50g's ease of use and thereby convenience improved; and will have no reason to look elsewhere.) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions > Although, no one makes one with a usable calculator keyboard, to my > knowledge. True, although these days the most straightforward approach would be to just make a Bluetooth keyboard -- then you can just pair it with your favorite PDA, cell phone, etc., and have a very nice calculator. Although I'd be hard-pressed to come up with some currently available software that does everything an HP 50g and is specifically designed for a keyboard only interface -- these days the software design consumes far more time than the hardware design does with calculators. === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions schlie kirjoitti >> It's time to move a Pocket PC and Color LCD >> plus graphics accelerator for faster plots >> (and games) > > Although, no one makes one with a usable calculator keyboard, to my > knowledge. exactly what is needed: A slide-out HP 48 keyboard with an extra row of keys for added alpha capability inverted T cursor keys working in Alpha mode Large ENTER key - key overlay possibility so you can use ASN to change the Alphabetic to true QWERTY Today a touch LSD is a must add some feedback and Java support for games, etc > (Otherwise I might consider it, but not otherwise; so in the mean time > I'm more than content to just see the 50g's ease of use and thereby > convenience improved; and will have no reason to look elsewhere.) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > schlie kirjoitti > X> - It would be nice if it weren't necessary to set/switch calc modes to > > specific settings just to get the results one would normally expect > > X > ***A > XC utility does this > and > I have suggested this to Parisse > CAS should simply > 1) save user flags > 2) do it's operations and change flags if needed > 3) restore user flags - Agreed, thank you. > ***B > About the Real/Complex numbers > I suggested a behavior that is similar to > Overflow Result/Indicator or Underflow or Infinite > except something like this: > > Hard Real Mode flag > if set, calc would give error > Error: > Complex Result > > if clear (default) do as suggested earlier at ***A > e.g.. silently switch mode for a while > > Anyway ALWAYS set a Complex Result Indicator flag > (which user has to manually reset) > on Complex Result Errors > or temp mode changes > > leave as is (set or clear) > if stayed in Real Domain during execution > so that even a single Complex Result of a function > and also re-occurring cases and up setting the indicator flag > which therefore has to be cleared before operations > and in-between if needed in your application > > This indicator flag is useful for testing > whether Complex Result has occurred > (regardless if that is caused by an error condition or a mode switch) - Agreed (possibly), but don't understand why anyone would need to know if an intermediate result were complex? Presumably to first try a real-only algorithm; which if it fails, then try again using a complex-aware algorithm? But as it's typically predictable when complex values are required, i.e. ln(x) | x < 0; it seems unnecessary to first try an algorithm known to likely fail? - Ideally, It seems simplest for all non-integer-only algorithms assume complex arguments/results, convert other numeric values to complex, and then only simplify calculations if a value's imaginary component is zero; and then only display the result as being complex if the result has a non-zero imaginary component, or if one of the user''s original arguments was complex and a complex preferred flag were set regardless of a results imaginary component value. (I believe; thereby all functions may be assumed to potentially have complex results, and which may then be graphed hypothetically.) (Further, hypothetically; even integer-only functions may be allowed to convert real/complex values to integers by dropping the fractional and imaginary parts, and set a warning flag as you've indicated may be used; but allow calculations to proceed without an error; where if a warning flag were set, it be indicated along with the result, but not impede the results use; and be cleared upon each new user interaction.) === Subject: Regarding 2.14 posting-account=GT4frAoAAADMvAtJu2WIOkYTwgy0O29T 1.1.4322; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I have versiion 2.09 which I am very happy with so the question is what is to be gained by going to 2.14? Also, did I miss something or were 2.10, 1.11, 2.12, and 2.13 never released? === Subject: Re: Regarding 2.14 JB kirjoitti >I have versiion 2.09 which I am very happy with so the question is > what is to be gained by going to 2.14? Also, did I miss something or > were 2.10, 1.11, 2.12, and 2.13 never released? They were never released (not even as a public beta) AND it looks like the new ROM is buggy BUT it supports StreamSmart, so if you own one you can beta test the support otherwise just be happy :-) StreamSmart: http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/215348-215348-64232-3732525-37 32524-3732522.html === Subject: Re: Regarding 2.14 >> were 2.10, 2.11, 2.12, and 2.13 never released? > They were never released (not even as a public beta) 2.10 (with some bug fixes and ARM ROM [speed boost] fixes) existed somewhere, was modified by BP (adding Geometry+Spreadsheet) and posted: The complete thread from which that post comes indicates that the spreadsheet (added by BP) is unstable. Some postings which I don't even have the ambition to try to find once indicated that some normal ROM functions may have been replaced to make BP's version, so there may be something missing from the CAS. It was said that HP could have released 2.10, but wouldn't go through the motions (regression testing), preferring to abandon any further development. That's the last I read here, and the last I ever heard about it. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: help please. hp82240b calculator printer posting-account=2tbLBQoAAABrz-sWeYU4gDqeSZDyf5m1 GTB5),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I just purchased an HP 82240b handheld printer that has been discontinued, of course, but was still new in the box. I am having trouble getting the paper to feed. Anyone had a problem with that before? I purchased the printer to print information off of an HID Entryprox system and not an HP calculator. Has anyone used this printer for such a purpose? === Subject: Minor bug in HP 40GS new ROM 2.20 Hi all, Just testing, I found this minor bug : when keeping ALPHA pressed downn and typing the characters V E R S I O N, you actually get V E R S I , N. To get a proper O, you need to release and press ALPHA again, this only for this letter O. Strangly, this bug already existed in the initial ROM. It was fixed in a non-official ROM that someone that we all miss here today (no name :-) pushed me. Even if this is not that important, now that we see with great pleasure that HP is back to support actively its calculators with new ROMs (40gs and 50g), it would be great to have this minor bug fixed as well. Herve === Subject: Re: Minor bug in HP 40GS new ROM 2.20 posting-account=kINXRQoAAACwzeObbKzgkSilFR8cKfNC Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1) ; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; BCD2000; OfficeLiveConnector.1.3; OfficeLivePatch.0.0; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618; BCD2000),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Hi all, > > Just testing, I found this minor bug : when keeping ALPHA pressed downn > and typing the characters V E R S I O N, you actually get V E R S I , N. > To get a proper O, you need to release and press ALPHA again, this only > for this letter O. > > Strangly, this bug already existed in the initial ROM. It was fixed in a > non-official ROM that someone that we all miss here today (no name :-) > pushed me. > > Even if this is not that important, now that we see with great pleasure > that HP is back to support actively its calculators with new ROMs (40gs > æ and 50g), it would be great to have this minor bug fixed as well. > > Herve Present o HP 38G too. === Subject: Hydrogeology or geology programs for HP48/49/50 series Does anyone know of any free Geology or Hydrogeology software available for download for the 48/49 or 50 series calculators? One of my former Physics students( A Geology Major) is going to take courses in Petrology and Hydrogeology and Sedimentation in the Fall 2009 semester. He is one of the few students I know that has HP calculators( A 48GX and a HP50G) I know they will be using Applied Hydrogeology (4th Edition) by C.W. Fetter. I do not know what text they will be using for Petrology or Sedimentation. He said calculator programs would be helpful in the Hydrogeology Lab, Petrology Lab(Field work) and Sedimentation Lab(Field work) I have searched Eric's site pretty thoroughly and have found only a few Hydrology programs. Harold A Climer Dept. Of Physics Geology, and Astronomy U.T, Chattanooga Rm. 406A Engineering, Math & Computer Science Building 615 McCallie Ave. Chattanooga TN 37403 Harold-Cimer@utc.edu === Subject: Re: Hydrogeology or geology programs for HP48/49/50 series posting-account=Cfv8xwoAAACs-gD928nd8EEEXXF1TJVm Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Harold, I don't think there is enough material for Hydrogeology or Sedimentology for the HP 48. For Hydrology applications you may check Dr. Urrroz website: http://www.neng.usu.edu/cee/faculty/gurro/MyBooks/HP48HydBookInfo.htm and his book at http://www.amazon.com/HP-48-GX-Applications-HYDRAULICS/dp/1588980413 that covers a review of Fluids Mechanics and Applications for Pipeline Flow, Open Channel, & Hydraulic Machinery. Paul. > æ æDoes anyone know of any free Geology or Hydrogeology software > available for download for the 48/49 or 50 series calculators? One of > my former Physics students( A Geology Major) is going to take æcourses > in Petrology and Hydrogeology and Sedimentation in the Fall 2009 > semester. > He is one of the few students I know that has HP calculators( A 48GX > and a HP50G) > I know they will be using Applied Hydrogeology (4th Edition) > by C.W. Fetter. > æI do not know what text they will be using for Petrology or > Sedimentation. > He said calculator programs would be helpful in the æHydrogeology Lab, > Petrology Lab(Field work) and Sedimentation Lab(Field work) > I have searched Eric's site pretty thoroughly and have found only a > few Hydrology programs. > Harold A Climer > Dept. Of Physics Geology, and Astronomy > U.T, Chattanooga > Rm. 406A Engineering, Math & Computer Science Building > 615 McCallie Ave. Chattanooga TN 37403 > Harold-Ci...@utc.edu === Subject: Re: 50g: enormous-size posting-account=QSfVcQoAAADkgn5Et4hWcvOa13b-lJy1 Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > My calculator has normal-size over my hand but...http://i40.tinypic.com/2nkiaeh.jpg > > Model: Kate Portales > Age: 2 months old > > - Gaak - Seems like some of your rutines has ended in a very nice code, genetic in this case. Congratulations, you should take as much pictures as you can, they change really fast, and never will see them the way they were. Daniel. === Subject: Re: Statistic Pac for 48sx posting-account=UnwNPgoAAACEJwXxAvoJt_C0aOypAtj0 Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Hello everyone. æI've been using my 48sx now for 20 years and I love > my calculator! æI'm currently earning a Masters in Statistics. æI > noticed sometime ago that the 48sx had a Statistic Pac card, does > anyone know what is does? æI would like to know the capabilities or > maybe see the manual. æAlso, does anyone know where I can buy one if I > think it will help me. > I remember EduCalc had these years ago. When I took an Engineering Stat class in 1993 being a poor student It was fairly easy to do and I keyed and referenced of the internal stat package that is under[ left shift] 5. I was able to use the matrix writer entry and save the data under the [data] name for use by the internal stats menu. My program just called the basic stats for use with my enhancements. It work pretty well. You may find what you are looking or at the hpcalc arcives . http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/math/statistic Good Luck David / === Subject: Re: Statistic Pac for 48sx I have the Statistics-ROMcard 48-802 Ver. 2.019122 (c) SESCO Handels AG 1991 It's a 32KB ROM card, the manual has 45 pages and is completely written in German. I got the card together with a used 48SX. I never seen an advertisement for this card a 2nd time. It's _not_ for sale. Christoph cylurian schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Hello everyone. I've been using my 48sx now for 20 years and I love > my calculator! I'm currently earning a Masters in Statistics. I > noticed sometime ago that the 48sx had a Statistic Pac card, does > anyone know what is does? I would like to know the capabilities or > maybe see the manual. Also, does anyone know where I can buy one if I > think it will help me. > > === Subject: Re: Statistic Pac for 48sx Hi Christoph, IIRC, W&W also offered the StatROM for sale. Raymond Christoph Giesselink <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >I have the > > Statistics-ROMcard > 48-802 > Ver. 2.019122 > (c) SESCO Handels AG 1991 > > It's a 32KB ROM card, the manual has 45 pages and is completely written in > German. I got the card together with a used 48SX. I never seen an > advertisement for this card a 2nd time. It's _not_ for sale. > > > Christoph > > > cylurian <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> Hello everyone. I've been using my 48sx now for 20 years and I love >> my calculator! I'm currently earning a Masters in Statistics. I >> noticed sometime ago that the 48sx had a Statistic Pac card, does >> anyone know what is does? I would like to know the capabilities or >> maybe see the manual. Also, does anyone know where I can buy one if I >> think it will help me. >> >> > > === Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?TNT2_b=EAta?= posting-account=eF2f0AoAAAB2spBRiZOs91ItDKLGDCIk Gecko/2008120122 Firefox/3.0.5,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello Since developing compression software, i've been asked sometimes what made TNT the better compression ratio software available on Saturn- based system. In order to answer these questions, i decided to have a look at TNT code. Having a look is more easily said than done, as TNT binary code is marred with many obfuscating techniques, especially Program Counter manipulation, specifically designed to defeat decompilers & splitters. Therefore, getting to the ML code is a little challenge in itself. But once there, i was quite disappointed by what i discovered. I don't know if this was already a well-known fact, but TNT is just a rip of BZ, which source code is freely available. Same code, same registers, same algorithm, everything is exactly at the same place, including errors. Now of course there is a modification that explain the ratio difference, but it is somewhat simple and well located : the encoding trigram selected by Mika Heiskanen to code the length field is replaced by a limited version of Elias-Gamma-Code, which is more efficient, but also more computation intensive. Now for the good part : if TNT is a rip with little modification from BZ, then creating a TNT2 version starting from BZ2 can be quite simple, and should result with approximately the same benefit (faster compression/decompression, lower memory usage and higher compression ratio). Hence TNT2, the new highest compression ratio Saturn-based compressor, for HP48,49,50, currently at B.90ta2 stage, which in fact should be called Release Candidate as it is already extensively tested. You can find it at following address : http://HPUtils.Webhop.org or http://phantasie.tonempire.net/utilitaires-f7/tnt2-aka-bz2-with-elias-gamma- code-t77.htm#95 or (direct download) http://img21.xooimage.com/files/7/c/2/tnt2-beta2-bb5dce.zip As previously with BZ2, i'm willing to propose an opened beta phase before actually declaring it final release, although at this stage TNT2 has no more any known bug. === Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_TNT2_b=EAta?= posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Having a look is more easily said than done, as TNT binary code is > marred with many obfuscating techniques, especially Program Counter > manipulation, specifically designed to defeat decompilers & splitters. > Therefore, getting to the ML code is a little challenge in itself. > > But once there, i was quite disappointed by what i discovered. Probably explains the reason for the obfuscation. :-) TW === Subject: Re: Banner Program posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > source code for BANNER for hp calculator HP-syntax source code for Banner 1.2 [49 series] is available now at: http://www.gaak.org/hp/banner/ Banner is free!, If you like this program, all contributions are welcome Your contribution serves as motivation for me to continue improving the program... - Gaak - === Subject: Re: 50g: enormous-size posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) course, my calculators are my old babies :-D Kate and me will be making beautiful things for you ;-) - Gaak - === Subject: HP 35s Programming/Solutions Manual posting-account=AE5rSwoAAAA0NhBHLzkbJEt0htGDTexS 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Is anyone aware of a Programming/Solutions Manual for the HP 35s? I noticed that a company called D'Zign has a Solutions Manual for the HP 33s, but I have the 35s. I am seeking licensure as a Professional Land Surveyor, and the 35s is one of the few calculators allow on the exams for becoming a Professional Land Surveyor or Professional Engineer. If a manual does not exist, does anyone have plans to make one anytime soon? I'm certain there are a lot of surveyors/engineers who would purchase such a book. Jon K. === Subject: Re: HP 35s Programming/Solutions Manual posting-account=itRlSAoAAADIJvOzSGM8mjsK7gvlk1wg Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Perhaps you could search in http://www.hpmuseum.org/ for surveying. There are some older HP calculators with a surveying pac. The hpmuseum sells a DVD with all the documentation of calculators and pacs. Perhaps this is an easier way than making a new program Peter === Subject: Re: HP 35s Programming/Solutions Manual posting-account=itRlSAoAAADIJvOzSGM8mjsK7gvlk1wg Gecko/20080201 (CK-PC-WELT) Firefox/2.0.0.12,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > To the OP: the 35s does not have I/O, so if you were to purchase such > a book of programs, you would have to enter each program in by hand. > Then, since the 35s cannot save programs to nonvolatile memory, you > would have to carefully change the two batteries one at a time to > retain user memory, lest you re-enter all of the equations/formulae > into the calculator. > > S.C. My HP calcs (HP11C, HP50G) hold their memories while battery changing for minutes. You only get a problem, if you switch them on with removed batteries. Try it, in my opinion there will be no problem Peter === Subject: Re: HP 35s Programming/Solutions Manual > My HP calcs (HP11C, HP50G) hold their memories > while battery changing for minutes. Did you take out the HP50G's lithium memory backup battery, to make that a fair contest :) . === Subject: Re: HP 35s Programming/Solutions Manual > To the OP: the 35s does not have I/O, so if you were to purchase such > a book of programs, you would have to enter each program in by hand. > Then, since the 35s cannot save programs to nonvolatile memory, > you would have to carefully change the two batteries one at a time > to retain user memory, lest you re-enter all of the equations/formulae > into the calculator. The original HP35 was not even programmable, but IIRC a book of keystroke programs for it, the HP35 Math Pac, to handle many problems, was produced anyway by HP (and bought by me). [answered below, if you look through everything] http://www.hpmuseum.org/software/swcd.htm lists the following under Calculator Manuals HP-35 Math Pac HP-35 Surveying Pac HP-35 Surveying http://openlibrary.org/b/OL19996140M http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102693396 http://www.finseth.com/hpdata/hp35a.php says, near end of page: Quoted from HP-35 Math Pac manual, page 168.. How would you display all 1's, 2's, ... 9's? Wow, here is quite a find (courtesy of Nelson & Horn) http://holyjoe.org/hhc2007/Remembering%20The%20HP35A.pdf HP made it very easy for you to buy a machine. You contacted the HP sales force and a salesman would take your order. HP also started an order-by-mail campaign that gave you a true 15 day free trial. They would not cash your check until after the 15 day trial [OFF...] === Subject: Stumped by Basic Algebra InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) '(1+X^2*(1-X^2))' Isn't that the same as 'v/(1/(1-X^2))' ? Yes it is, but for the life of me I can't remember how to show that it's true. Conjugates? Should I be remembering the rules of conjugates? Or radicals? Any aid to my leaky memory would be great. :-) Bill === Subject: Re: Stumped by Basic Algebra posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > '(1+X^2*(1-X^2))' > Isn't that the same as 'v/(1/(1-X^2))' ? > Yes it is, but for the life of me > I can't remember how to show that it's true. They are NOT the same. f1(1) = infinity f2(1) = 1 Typo, perhaps? -Joe- === Subject: Re: Stumped by Basic Algebra >> '(1+X^2*(1-X^2))' <== misquoted, * should be / >> Isn't that the same as 'v/(1/(1-X^2))' ? > They are NOT the same. The actual original function, as stated by Brandon, inserting only spaces, was: 'sqrt( 1 + x^2/(1-x^2) )' which is the same as 'sqrt( (1-x^2)/(1-x^2) + x^2/(1-x^2) )' Do I see a common denominator there? Also 'v/(1/(1-X^2))' = '1/v/(1-X^2)' Or at least used to be :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Stumped by Basic Algebra InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > >> '(1+X^2*(1-X^2))' æ<== misquoted, * should be / > >> Isn't that the same as 'v/(1/(1-X^2))' ? > > They are NOT the same. > Oops, sorry to add to the confusion with a misquote. Joe and John for unblocking the block. Bill === Subject: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) TopSecret 1.1 for 49 series --------------------------- TopSecret is a very small program for HP-Calculators that provides quick access to built-in hidden features of the original machine, such as the hidden built-in photos, the interruptions replacement, the Tetris games, advanced functions like the memory browser and more. It's written in assembly language. The directory contains: VarName Model +PHOTO CHRIS any CYRIL any GERAL any JYA any MARK any RAY any GROUP any TANYA any VGER any +INTER ON+ any ON- any ONAF any ON9 any ONC any OND any ONE any ONF any ONR 50g ONS 50g HPMAD any MINEB any +APPS MEMBR any NOSYS 49G Real testing machines: --------------------- 49G ROM 1.18 1.19-6 2.09 50g ROM 2.09 - HPMAD is available on 50g but the speed is very fast. - MINEB isn't available on 49G ROM 1.18. - 49G is the saturn, and 50g is the ARM-based machines. TopSecret is free!, your contribution serves as motivation for me to continue improving the program... Enjoy it :-) _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _____________________________________ - Gaak - === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b2) Gecko/20081201 Firefox/3.1b2,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > TopSecret 1.1 for 49 series Cool. Have you found any way to get into the RomUpdate screen? It would be nice if people could push a button and get in there without any difficulties. TW === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > TopSecret 1.1 for 49 series > > Cool. > > Have you found any way to get into the RomUpdate screen? It would be > nice if people could push a button and get in there without any > difficulties. > > TW My goal is get the same feature (49G: APPSNOSYS) to update ROM(50g) without press Reset+Another buttons. Unfortunately, this is hidden and my searching process can't find it. Maybe ARM+BZ is used :-( I need a little patience... :-) My moves: https://twitter.com/LGaak - Gaak - === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Obviously: http://www.gaak.org/hp/topsecret/ - Gaak - === Subject: 50G 'new user' documentation posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b2) Gecko/20081201 Firefox/3.1b2,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I am working on some new-user documentation with the goal to reduce initial frustration and get people to discover some of the best features of the 50G with little effort. There are plenty of people that have strong feelings on manuals around here. While I am not making a complete new manual, I'd like this to be around a 20 page follow this and learn enough that you feel good to do simple stuff and know where to get more info and help. I am hoping to get some good opinions on topics I have missed, and the general format I am Here is what I have for topics, and the general order it is being presented in, I am trying to avoid getting into CAS and stuff until near the very end as I feel that is what trips people up the most. 1.On and off 2.Contrast 3.Reboot and clear memory. 4.Performing a ROM update.? (maybe stick at the end) 5.Header 6.Stack 7.Menu [CapitalEth] function keys 8.Indicators 9.Set to approximate mode 10.Simple math calculation. 11.Storing variables. 12.Enter an equation using the EQW. 13.->NUM 14.Copy and paste that into the N.SOLV 15.Solve the equation. 16.Open the plotter. 17.Enter a simple equation. 18.Plot it. 19.Look at the table. 20.Go home, show the Y= program 21.Open the filer 22.Look at all the stuff, delete it 23. . . . insert more here 24.CAS, APPROXIMATE/EXACT 25.What cas topics are most important? I am going to cover resetting the CAS, basic troubleshooting, 26. Common problems (aka: stuff that people always ask, why is my SD card smaller in the filer? etc) 27. Where to get help. (here, hp's forum, manuals, etc) Here is what I have so far. Please feel free to destroy my bad writing (i've done no editing, so this is rough) or suggest anything. :-) I will use LS and RS to mean left and right shift through the silver arrows. * is multiply, / is divide. ^ is y^x --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Getting Stated - The basics 1.To begin, lets turn the unit ON. While ON, the ON key is also screen. To use a menu, press the key directly beneath it. This menu will change as you use the calculator. Press $RCL$ and notice the command RCL() appears with a blinking cursor. The blinking cursor indicates you have an editline. Now press ON(CANCEL). The editline is 2.Notice how there is a white function, and an orange function on most keys. There is also a yellow alpha character. Look at the orange function above ON. Push RS-ON and the unit powers off. 3.Turn it back on. Now hold down ON and press + repeatedly. The screen will darken. You will now clearly see 6 indicator symbols above the screen. The 3 on the left indicate that a shift or alpha is turned on. Then the low battery indicator, then the ñbusyî annunciator, then the ñcommunicationî annunciator. With ON held, press [CapitalEth] until the screen is the contrast you prefer. 4.If the 50G is non-responsive, press CANCEL a few times. If it doesn't respond, you may reboot the machine by holding ON and pressing C. When you release the ON key, it will reboot. This is called a Release F, then A, then ON. After a beep, the screen will say, ñTry to Recover Memoryî, with YES or NO on the menu. Press $NO$ (if nothing happens, push another key, it will beep, and then $NO$) 5.All future steps in this manual assume you have cleared your memory, and have no extra programs installed. If you have not cleared memory now, this guide may act slightly different. Please do so. 6. Now that your 50G is ready to go, lets look at the screen. On the top, you have the HEADER. This shows important information. (RAD XYZ HEX R= 'X' ALG and so on) This means the calculator is in RADIANS, CARTESIAN, HEX REAL EXACT, 'X' is the default variable, and algebraic mode {HOME} means you are in the home directory. As we work, keep track up top to see the changes. Don't worry what it all means right now. 7.The Main part of the screen is called the stack. This is where your numbers and equations appear as you work. The bottom is the menu which we have previously talked about Basic Math 8.The 50G is the most powerful graphing calculator in the world. This may seem scary at first, but we can break it down into small tasks and you'll quickly be on your way. 9.To being, type 1+1 (notice the editline) and press ENTER. The answer, 2 is returned. Now press UP twice to select 1+1. Press $EDIT$ to open the equation writer. This allows you to write complex equations very easily and see it exactly as on paper. With 1+1 highlighted, press / 5. Notice how it is nicely shown. Press ENTER to return the equation to the stack, then ENTER to evaluate. The answer is 2/5. What is going on here? 10.Notice up in the header the R=. This means that the calculator is in EXACT mode. Keep your eye on that R=. Press and hold LS and press ENTER. The R= will toggle to ~. Do it a few times and see how it changes. Before the next step, leave it as R~. 11.Now press LS-HIST(CMD). A choose box with your last 4 typed entries is shown. With (1+1)/5 selected, press $OK$ and then ENTER. This time, the answer is .4. This is what is meant by exact, or approximate. Observe how the last entry now shows 1.+1./5. This is perfectly fine. We will discuss more about this later. Press $CLEAR$. Your stack is cleared. Using RPN 12.The 50G comes from a history of calculators designed for engineers and mathematicians. As such, it have very powerful capabilities for quickly solving, entering and working math problems. One of these tools is RPN. 13.RPN may sound tricky at first, but it will help you use the 50G easier and save you lots of time while working problems. RPN's greatest strength is that is lets you work out problems one small piece at a time. You don't have to type everything into a long equation and worry about parenthesis. 14.Lets change into RPN mode. Press MODE and what is called an Input form appears. These full screen forms are used for a variety of tasks. On this screen, may basic settings are shown. Currently, algebraic is selected. Press $CHOOS$ ans a choose box appears. Press DOWN, select RPN, press ENTER. RPN is now selected. Choose boxes in input forms can also be changed by press +/-. Press +/- a few times and note how it toggles between RPN and Algebraic. With RPN selected, press ENTER to leave the mode screen. 15.Immediately, you will notice that the left side of the screen has numbers from 1-7. Type 2 SPC 3 SPC 4 ENTER. The 3 numbers appear on the stack. The number 2 is said to be on level 3 of the stack. 16.Press ENTER again and notice how a copy is made of level 1 on the stack. This is useful to allow you to save your previous work. Lets now multiply 4*4. Since 4 is both level 1 and level 2, press *. The result, 16 is placed on the stack and the other two numbers move down. You now have 2 3 and 16. Let's calculate 16/3. However, the numbers are in the wrong order. No problem, press RIGHT and they swap positions. Now press / and 5.33 repeating appears. Lets square that by pressing y^x. The final result, 40.317 appears. 17.Now let's work a real problem: (I'll insert a nice real world problem here - any suggestions on one?) (I am having most trouble with the RPN section, I don't want to much deatil, but don't want to little either, some good examples would be much appreciated) Working in Algebraic in RPN Mode 18.You may prefer working in algebraic mode. That is no problem. Press ' and '' appears. You can now type in anything just as if you were in algebraic mode (need a good example here). When you are done, press ENTER and notice how your equation appears on the stack. Press ENTER to duplicate it, and then RS-ENTER(->NUM) to return a final numerical answer. 19.Another option is to use the equation writer. Press RS-'(EQW) to open the equation writer. Let's type in and solve a problem using the pythagorean theorem. Type 14 ^ 2 RIGHT + 20 ^ 2 RIGHT RIGHT SQRT. You now have the equation entered into the equation writer. Now press $EVAL $ and then RS-HIST(UNDO). $EVAL$ evaluates what is currently highlighted, and UNDO will undo the last thing you did. Now with the whole equation highlighted, press RS-VAR(COPY). We will use this later. Now press ENTER. Your equation is now on the stack. Press EVAL to evaluate your problem. The hypotenuse is ~24.413. Using Equation Solvers 20. Let's say you have several problems to solve involving the Pythagorean theorem from the last example. Rather than typing them all it, wouldn't it be nice to solve any part of the formula in a simple manner? The many built-in solving tools can help you do this. 21.There are two major types of solvers on the 50g. Numeric and symbolic. Let's examine a numeric solver right now. Press RS-7(N.SLV). A choose box appears. Press 3 and note how the choose jumps to the matching item. Press 1 to jump back to Solve Equation and press ENTER. 22.A full screen solver appears. To begin, we must enter an equation to solve. Rather than typing it all in at once, let's use the EQW again. Press RS-'(EQW). Now let's paste in the formula we copied from the last example by pressing LS-NXT(paste). The whole variable is highlighted. Let's rewrite this to be A^2+b^2=c^2. Press LS-BKSP(DEL) to remove the SQRT function. Now press $CURS$ and notice a cursor appears. Use the arrow keys to move around the equation. As you move, note how you can select individual items, or groups in the whole. Move so the box surrounds only the 20 and press ENTER. 23.Now press ALPHA-A and note how the 20 is replaced by A. Press UP UP LEFT DOWN to highlight the 14. Press ALPHA-B to replace the 14 with a B. Press UP UP then LS-RIGHT. The B^2 term moves over. Press LS-LEFT and it moves back. Position it so the equation reads a^2+b^2. Press UP until the entire equation is highlighted. Press RS-+/- to insert =, then ALPHA-C ^ 2. You now have the full a^2+b^2=c^2. Press ENTER. TW === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation Hi Tim, > Here is what I have for topics, and the general order it is being > presented in, I am trying to avoid getting into CAS and stuff until > near the very end as I feel that is what trips people up the most. This is a great idea, and I like your list of topics already. I think it covers most of what is important to share with a new user, in the hopes that once they have taken a little time to go through your examples, they will be inspired to get out the full manual to learn more. Here are my thoughts: Performing a ROM upgrade isn't very important for a new user document. True, every 50g that shipped in the last 2.5 years shipped with a non-current ROM, but 2.08 is good enough for almost anybody, so I wouldn't consider the update a critical thing for new users. I can only see it leading to support problems, especially since the only reliable way to do the upgrade is with an extra-cost SD card. One of the most useful features for me on the 50g is its powerful unit conversion ability. Base conversions would be good to add too, though that is perhaps a selfish request of my own rather than something that everyone needs (normally when I am at work, I use the 35s that I keep on my desk, but when I need to do a base conversion, I run Emu48 with the 50g emulator because the 35s's base conversions are so painful to use). Maybe add a page on matrices -- how to enter a matrix, calculate the inverse, determinant, and cross product. For plotting, maybe cover both function and polar plots, just to cover everything a high school student might encounter. I agree you shouldn't go into detail on the CAS, but perhaps just a few simple examples with factoring a polynomial (FACTOR or COLLECT), simplifying it again (EXPAND), and calculating the integral (INTVX) and derivative (DERVX) would be nice. Maybe add a few examples with basic number theory and probability/statistics -- combinations, permutations, prime factoring, random numbers, and how to calculate the mean and median of a set of numbers. Also, a few time-menu-related items could be nice. Show how to calculate the number of days between two dates, DMS/HMS conversions, and maybe even how to set an alarm. I think that you should just attempt to cover many of the things a user might encounter in high school math or their day-to-day life. I agree you want to keep it short and simple, so don't try to do any college math, but I think the topics you listed, plus the few I listed above, plus maybe a couple more we haven't listed, would be sufficient. Perhaps this seems to go against my perceived target market of the 50g (I see it as a calculator for hackers and advanced math students, not a calculator for high school students), but I think that showing people with a richer background in math or programming how to do the least common denominator math that they all learned in high school will make them feel more comfortable in the beginning. Best wishes! Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation posting-account=KxEIGwoAAAALMxy6hykxLK1wPdiyuNkK Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Tim, THANK YOU for doing this. I agree that we need better new-user documentation for the 50G. I'm thrilled that you're taking this on. My comments below come from the general philosophy that, for new users, you should take them from the very simplest things up through more and more complex stuff as you go, but *without* bogging them down in complex minutia. For example, I would introduce the indicators as you get to the parts that deal with them. Also, I'd have the user switch to approximate mode first thing and then don't even talk about exact mode until after dealing with all the things a normal calculator does. If you disagree, then many of my comments won't apply. With that philosophy in mind, I'd do the topics something like this: INTRODUCTION 1. On & off 2. Intro to the keyboard (RS, LS, ENTER, cursor keys, menu keys (little more than these are menu keys, their function changes, we'll come back to this) 2. Reboot and clear memory 3. Switch to approximate mode (you need to do this. It brings up a form, pay no attention the rest of the form, we'll get back to it) BASIC OPERATIONS 4. Simple math calculations. (+ - * / sqrt sqr 1/x y^x) 5. Display modes 6. Scientific calculations (sin, cos, tan, e^x log, ln.76. RPN. See the HP41 manual's explanation here http://www.greendyk.nl/hp41c-manual/ . I like the theme of RPN is the way you do it with paper and pencil 8. Fractions. Switch to exact mode. Do some fractions. Explain - >NUM. Explain RS ENTER to toggle. Explain exact/approx indicator. VARIABLES AND EQUATIONS 9. Storing variables Sending/receiving to other calculators. 10 Equations and equation writer. 11. Directories and the Filer. 11. Numeric equation solver. 12. Financial equations. 13. The Equation library. Give an example. 14. Simple Statistics(?) GRAPHING Take them through plotting equations, tables etc. MATRICES, VECTORS, LISTS and COMPLEX NUMBERS brief into to each. MORE ADVANCED FUNCTIONS Point out EXP&LN, TRIG, and MATH menus. Explain menus at this point if you haven't already. SYMBOLIC MATH 15 Back to exact mode. Integers vs. reals. 16 Symbolic solver. 17 Polynomials etc. CAS Settings. ADDITIONAL FUNCTIONS (briefly mention the following areas and point out where to get more information) BASE menu TIME UNITS CONVERT APPS Programming Transferring to/from the PC REFERENCES The MODE dialog box Keyboard shortcuts Indicators ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTATION - Users Manual - Users Guide - Advanced Users Reference - HP web site - hpcalc.org Dave === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b2) Gecko/20081201 Firefox/3.1b2,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > THANK YOU for doing this. æI agree that we need better new-user > documentation for the 50G. æI'm thrilled that you're taking this on. It was your post a bit back that I used for a guide although it is something I've been thinking about for ages. My only concern with what you have posted below is that I think it will be too much material (my goal is about 10-15 pages of text, which when pictures and formatting are added in expands to ~20-25. Just as an exercise, what if you had to remove 1/3 of the topics from your great list? What would you remove? I know I'd like to cover it all, but if it starts getting too thick the basic user won't read it. :-( My goal in asking this is to distill down to get the core, most important new user topics with an even tighter focus. They will feel like they have a handle on it and know where to go for more information without feeling overwhelmed. As to the exact/approximate, I think it has to be touched upon at least once at the beginning. I tried to do that by working it into a basic math example combined with header instruction, and showing how to change it. > My comments below come from the general philosophy that, for new > users, you should take them from the very simplest things up through > more and more complex stuff as you go, but *without* bogging them down > in complex minutia. æFor example, I would introduce the indicators as > you get to the parts that deal with them. I think this is the better way to do it in principle, but I am afraid we'd never reach battery or communication in this size of document. I thought pointing them out when the contrast is nice and dark will work well, but I also think that it could be compacted while explaining better in that section. > Also, I'd have the user > switch to approximate mode first thing and then don't even talk about > exact mode until after dealing with all the things a normal > calculator does. æIf you disagree, then many of my comments won't > apply. I just think the average user will encounter this right off if they do almost ANYTHING. Also, mentioning it, and then focusing on it later reinforces the concept. I don't plan to repeat anything else really except this as it the stumbling block to so many users. > With that philosophy in mind, I'd do the topics something like this: > > INTRODUCTION > 1. On & off > 2. Intro to the keyboard (RS, LS, ENTER, cursor keys, menu keys > (little more than these are menu keys, their function changes, we'll > come back to this) > 2. Reboot and clear memory > 3. Switch to approximate mode (you need to do this. æIt brings up a > form, pay no attention the rest of the form, we'll get back to it) > > BASIC OPERATIONS > 4. Simple math calculations. (+ - * / sqrt sqr 1/x y^x) Do you really feel like a user of this type of calculator needs an example of each basic operation? I'd like to get a nice example that can show a few together, but I don't know if specifically highlighting them is needed. > 5. Display modes Do you feel this is needed this early? Aren't most users just concerned about seeing all the decimals? > 6. Scientific calculations (sin, cos, tan, e^x log, ln.76. RPN. æSee > the HP41 manual's explanation herehttp://www.greendyk.nl/hp41c-manual/ > . æI like the theme of RPN is the way you do it with paper and > pencil > 8. Fractions. æSwitch to exact mode. æDo some fractions. æExplain - > > >NUM. æExplain RS ENTER to toggle. æExplain exact/approx indicator. > > VARIABLES AND EQUATIONS > 9. Storing variables > Sending/receiving to other calculators. This is another I am not sure of simply because most users may never encounter anyone with another 50. :-( > 10 Equations and equation writer. > 11. Directories and the Filer. > 11. Numeric equation solver. > 12. Financial equations. For finance, I was planning on simply mentioning it is there as most users don't buy a 50 for financial stuff. > 13. The Equation library. æGive an example. This one I do definitely want to work in as people are amazed when they see this. > 14. Simple Statistics(?) I think is beyond the scope of the doc. Point to the HP learning module was my idea. > GRAPHING > Take them through plotting equations, tables etc. I don't know if there is enough space for more than one simple equation. > MATRICES, VECTORS, LISTS and COMPLEX NUMBERS > brief into to each. > > MORE ADVANCED FUNCTIONS > Point out EXP&LN, TRIG, and MATH menus. æExplain menus at this point > if you haven't already. > > SYMBOLIC MATH > 15 Back to exact mode. æIntegers vs. reals. > 16 Symbolic solver. > 17 Polynomials etc. > CAS Settings. > > ADDITIONAL FUNCTIONS > (briefly mention the following areas and point out where to get more > information) > BASE menu > TIME > UNITS > CONVERT > APPS > Programming > Transferring to/from the PC > > REFERENCES > The MODE dialog box > Keyboard shortcuts > Indicators > > ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTATION > - Users Manual > - Users Guide > - Advanced Users Reference > - HP web site > - hpcalc.org > TW === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation posting-account=KxEIGwoAAAALMxy6hykxLK1wPdiyuNkK Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Just as an exercise, what if you had > to remove 1/3 of the topics from your great list? What would you > remove? That's a tough one. Ideally, I'd try to get some info on who new users are and what they use the calculator for. Certainly the things you pointed out could go. Basic arithmetic through trig and exp/log could hopefully be covered in half a page. Financial calculations and statistics could be covered simply by saying it does these, see manual xyz for details. Hmm. As another approach, I've been sitting here thinking about the absolute must-have essentials for such a guide. By figuring out what really MUST be in and what can be easily culled, you can narrow down the questionable stuff. So my list of must-have sections would be: - ON, OFF, CANCEL, keyboard intro. - exact vs. approximate mode and how to switch between them - RPN - storing and recalling variables - solving number equations - solving symbolic equations - graphing - > I know I'd like to cover it all, but if it starts getting too > thick the basic user won't read it. :-( æ The other danger is that it will cover topics in so little detail as to be unhelpful. > > For example, I would introduce the indicators as > > you get to the parts that deal with them. > > I think this is the better way to do it in principle, but I am afraid > we'd never reach battery or communication in this size of document. But in this size of a document, you don't *need* to talk about the communication indicator unless you're going to talk about communication. > > I just think the average user will encounter [exact vs. approximate mode] right off if they do > almost ANYTHING. Also, mentioning it, and then focusing on it later > reinforces the concept. I don't plan to repeat anything else really > except this as it the stumbling block to so many users. I definitely see your point. I guess my main point is that I think you should let the user get comfortable with some with some of the functions of the calculator before getting too far into exact vs. approximate mode. Consider that you can cover scientific functions, variables, equations, the equation library and graphing before the user even needs to know about exact mode. > > > With that philosophy in mind, I'd do the topics something like this: ... > > BASIC OPERATIONS > > 4. Simple math calculations. (+ - * / sqrt sqr 1/x y^x) > > Do you really feel like a user of this type of calculator needs an > example of each basic operation? I'd like to get a nice example that > can show a few together, but I don't know if specifically highlighting > them is needed. I agree. It shouldn't take more than half a page to cover all of this. > > > 5. Display modes > > Do you feel this is needed this early? Aren't most users just > concerned about seeing all the decimals? Good point. > > > Sending/receiving to other calculators. > > This is another I am not sure of simply because most users may never > encounter anyone with another 50. :-( Sad but true. I was thinking (fantasizing?) about a classroom full of students with 50g's and they need to exchange applications and formulas. :) > > > 12. Financial equations. > > For finance, I was planning on simply mentioning it is there as most > users don't buy a 50 for financial stuff. Good point. Give some thought to the % function, which I think it fairly basic but isn't on the keyboard or even easily accessible. > > 14. Simple Statistics(?) > > I think is beyond the scope of the doc. Point to the HP learning > module was my idea. Good idea. > > > GRAPHING > > Take them through plotting equations, tables etc. > > I don't know if there is enough space for more than one simple > equation. Okay. I had another thought. Would it be worthwhile to make a video showing what the calculator can do? This would be somewhere between a sales pitch and a quick-start guide sort of thing. A quick look at youtube didn't reveal any such thing. Hmm. Maybe I'll try that myself. I'm thinking that this discussion shows that the calculator can do SO MUCH that even a quick tutorial of the basic stuff would be large. So is it possible to *show* the things it can do in perhaps 5 to 15 minutes of video? Along the way, I stumbled across this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMZtfsiQ1eA&feature=related which is good for a laugh! Dave === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation > The other danger is that it will cover topics in so little detail > as to be unhelpful. Or too much, like ON/OFF, which is so obvious that it almost might not be worth more than one horizintal line -- it's like the earliest telephone book I ever saw, which went into detail about how to use a finger to turn the dial (yep, that long ago :) until your finger hit the stop, but year after year, the text shrank, until it was assumed that finally no one would need any descriptive help at all, because most everyone in society had by then become familiar with all that. Very early four bangers also came with lengthier instructions, but finally, a small chart on the back of the typical package, with one wordless example of each feature (memory, percent, constant) became the entire manual for most products. > the average user will encounter [exact vs. approximate mode] right off > if they do almost ANYTHING. The most important concept, to me, is that common numerical calculation requires one mode, while symbolic operation requires the other -- there's nothing obvious about why decimal points are antithetical to algebra, so start off any section on algebra and calculus, however introductory, by saying type CASCFG to get started, and that alone is sufficient to get going without explaining anything deeper -- you don't even have to mention Exact mode :) One example of 1.25 XQ could be enough to demonstrate how to remove all decimals from any input before proceeding with anything involving algebra or calculus; saying now do ->NUM on that can provide an enlightening direct experience of how to go the other way, letting neural networks within the brain absorb this without bogging down in further explanation :) > With that philosophy in mind, I'd do the topics something like this... Without even digging it out to look, after all these years, I seem to recall that the HP48G series Quick Start Guide was a very excellent model, containing very brief sections which do just a little of everything -- get right to the doing, without much explaining, with independent sections which can be read or skipped, according to one's interest in each category. To get all flags standardized so that all visible results are sure to agree with a guide, perhaps either suggest a total reset or provide an argument for STOF. There is still a great divide, however, between the ALGebraic and RPN modes, since the schizophrenic introduction of the former has almost the effect of changing between two totally different calculators, with entirely different modes of working. HP marketing evidently aimed everything at ALGebraic mode, while newsgroup discussions tend to aim the opposite way, and take RPN mode for granted. Perhaps one might mention ALGebraic mode in passing, noting that one can type formulas directly, like most of the common other calculators, then skip directly to changing to RPN mode, noting that the rest of this Guide assumes RPN mode; see the HP manuals for more about ALG mode :) Now copy the rest of the HP48G series Guide, add a CAS chapter, and I guess you're done :) > Would it be worthwhile to make a video > showing what the calculator can do? How about a video in the calculator itself? Here's the (rather brief) one which came with the original 49G: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3114 No need to download it to your calculator to see it; here's the same thing to display in your web browser: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/pictures/demo.gif Want to make a longer one in that style? [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation posting-account=S8PaHQkAAADflNLjF80Lr3Z4YJmnPpiz Gecko/2009020911 Ubuntu/8.10 (intrepid) Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I recommend you include some of these short cuts, which I found in the web pdf document at http://www.neng.usu.edu/cee/faculty/gurro/Software_Calculators/HP48_49G_Docs /20essentialthings49.pdf Right-shift HOLD Enter: toggle exact/approximate mode Down: opens editor for object on level 1of stack or history Right: swap (RPN only) Up: accesses stack or history, like the HIST button Left: look at last graph or picture Right-shift Down: examine the items in the soft menu Right-shift Right: X-modem server mode Right-shift HOLD Right: Kermit server mode Left-shift HOLD Tool: toggle real/complex mode Right-shift Function key: recalls object Left-shift Function key: stores object (RPN only) Left-shift HOLD Prev: jumps to the last menu you were in Left-shift HOLD Updir: jumps directly to Home === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b2) Gecko/20081201 Firefox/3.1b2,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I recommend you include some of these short cuts, which I found in the > web pdf document at > > http://www.neng.usu.edu/cee/faculty/gurro/Software_Calculators/HP48_4... Glad to see that document is still kicking around after all these I've always wanted to go back and improve the thing and I decided now would be a good time. Keep the suggestions coming. TW === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation [ <-| ] [Down]: opens line editor for object on level 1of stack instead of best editor, eg. no MTRW or EQW > Right-shift HOLD Enter: toggle exact/approximate mode > Down: opens editor for object on level 1of stack or history > Right: swap (RPN only) > Up: accesses stack or history, like the HIST button > Left: look at last graph or picture > Right-shift Down: examine the items in the soft menu > Right-shift Right: X-modem server mode > Right-shift HOLD Right: Kermit server mode > Left-shift HOLD Tool: toggle real/complex mode > Right-shift Function key: recalls object > Left-shift Function key: stores object (RPN only) > Left-shift HOLD Prev: jumps to the last menu you were in > Left-shift HOLD Updir: jumps directly to Home [ALPHA] [ |-> ]&[ 6 ] = o or degree symbol [ALPHA] [ |-> ]&[ O ] = OMEGA (Ohm symbol) [ALPHA] [ |-> ]&[ 2 ] = ! upside-down (used in Spanish) [ALPHA] [ |-> ]&[ 3 ] = ? upside-down (used in Spanish) [ |-> ]&[SPC] = ; or semi-colon [ |-> ]&[ ' ] = `` or backquotas (RPN) [ |-> ]&[TIME] = 94 MENU = time soft menu [ |-> ]&[NUM.SLV] = 74 MENU = solver soft menu [ |-> ]&[CHARS] = 62 MENU = chars soft menu [ <-| ]&[MODE] = 63 MENU = modes soft menu |CHOOS| soft menu key, use [+/-] | OK | soft menu key, use [ENTER] |CANCL| soft menu, use [ ON ] (under it reads CANCEL) === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) and send comments. Bill === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation posting-account=v6m75AoAAAAgp3vyiLFAfyqmfMcXEPkm Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Nice work. When I switched from Casio to HP, having no knowledge at all about HP calculators apart from their reputation, one of the first things I needed to know was how to store a number in a variable, and how to later quickly change the content of that variable if needed. Lets say I want to store the number 5 in the A variable, and later I want to store 25 in the A variable. In Casio programmable calculators, this is as simple as: 5 -> ALPHA A EXE 25 -> ALPHA A EXE Reading the HP 50g User's Manual (the small one on paper) you learn to store something in a variable but...it doesnÇt say how to quickly change its content later. For said example, reading the manual I guessed: 5 ENTER ALPHA A STO But after I created the A variable, I wanted to change its value to 25 and: 25 ENTER ALPHA A STO Failed miserably!. Later I knew why. It should say somewhere in the small manual that: 25 LS $A$ would do the trick. This very important feature for basic and quick operation with variables, IMHO, should be clearly expressed in a quick reference manual. It is documented somewhere in the big PDF manual or in the AUR, but it should be in the small manual too. === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > 8.The 50G is the most powerful graphing calculator in the world. Yes it is. > positions. Now press / and 5.33 repeating appears. Lets square that by > pressing y^x. The final result, 40.317 appears. You will need another SWAP here. After these operations, you have 2: 2 1: 5.333 > 17.Now let's work a real problem: (I'll insert a nice real world > problem here - any suggestions on one?) > > (I am having most trouble with the RPN section, I don't want to much > deatil, but don't want to little either, some good examples would be > much appreciated) How about a parallel resistor problem? The formula is 1/r(total) = 1/r1 + 1/r2 + 1/r3, ... where r(total) is the equivalent total resistance and rN with N = 1,2,3,... are the individual resistors. This problem allows the user to see the speed advantages of RPN: [r1] [1/X] [r2] [1/X] [+] [r3] [1/X] [+] [1/X] gives the result in minimal keystrokes. Unfortunately, this example doesn't make use of the other three binary operations and only focuses on the [1/X] key, which I have to say is very useful. > > Working in Algebraic in RPN Mode > > 18.You may prefer working in algebraic mode. That is no problem. Press > ' and '' appears. You may want to note that the cursor is automatically placed between the two single quotes, and that this is not a double quote. > Let's rewrite this to be A^2+b^2=c^2. Press LS-BKSP(DEL) > to remove the SQRT function. Now press $CURS$ and notice a cursor > appears. Use the arrow keys to move around the equation. As you move, > note how you can select individual items, or groups in the whole. Move > so the box surrounds only the 20 and press ENTER. > 23.Now press ALPHA-A and note how the 20 is replaced by A. Press UP UP > LEFT DOWN to highlight the 14. Press ALPHA-B to replace the 14 with a > B. Press UP UP then LS-RIGHT. The B^2 term moves over. Press LS-LEFT > and it moves back. Position it so the equation reads a^2+b^2. Press UP > until the entire equation is highlighted. Press RS-+/- to insert =, > then ALPHA-C ^ 2. You now have the full a^2+b^2=c^2. Press ENTER. Maybe insert a note that the = sign can be omitted and replaced with a minus sign, and that the 50g automatically assumes any such expression is equal to 0. > > > TW Well done! S.C. === Subject: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 posting-account=rnRxswoAAACgf3DQyRsrbZD3F5yEDWgy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) One of my students has the HP 65 scientific calculator. As two examples, could you tell me how to find seven factorial and twenty choose nine on this calculator? Mike === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > One of my students has the HP 65 scientific calculator. æAs two > examples, could you tell me how to find seven factorial and twenty > choose nine on this calculator? > > Mike Factorial is on the keyboard: press the blue [g] shift, then 3. seven factorial: press 7 [g] 3 --> 5040. twenty choose nine: That's ambiguous. If the order of the choices matters, then it's called permutations. A common notation for permutations of n things taken r at a time is nPr. The formula for nPr is n!/(n-r)! Therefore on the HP-65 you'd press: 20 [g] 3 20 ENTER 9 - [g] 3 [divide] --> 6.09493248 x 10^10. If the order of the choices doesn't matter, then it's called combinations. A common notation for combinations of n things taken r at a time is nCr. The formula for nCr is n!/((n-r)!r!). Therefore on the HP-65 you'd press: 20 [g] 3 20 ENTER 9 - [g] 3 9 [g] 3 [multiply] [divide] --> 167960. Hope that helps! === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 >> One of my students has the HP 65 scientific calculator. æAs two >> examples, could you tell me how to find seven factorial and twenty >> choose nine on this calculator? >> >> Mike > > Factorial is on the keyboard: press the blue [g] shift, then 3. > > seven factorial: press 7 [g] 3 --> 5040. > > twenty choose nine: That's ambiguous. If the order of the choices > matters, then it's called permutations. A common notation for > permutations of n things taken r at a time is nPr. The formula for > nPr is n!/(n-r)! Therefore on the HP-65 you'd press: 20 [g] 3 20 > ENTER 9 - [g] 3 [divide] --> 6.09493248 x 10^10. > > If the order of the choices doesn't matter, then it's called > combinations. A common notation for combinations of n things taken > r at a time is nCr. The formula for nCr is n!/((n-r)!r!). Therefore > on the HP-65 you'd press: 20 [g] 3 20 ENTER 9 - [g] 3 9 [g] 3 > [multiply] [divide] --> 167960. FWIW, in my experience twenty choose nine always means the latter. It's the number of distinct 9-element subsets of a 20-element set, or the coefficient of x^9 in (x+1)^20. Sometimes written / 20 9 / === Subject: Programmable Calculator posting-account=TxCRigoAAADD_aDhSQtU_SHz68fYrnTc .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I was wanting a Casio FC200V as it has depreciation function but alas you cant get it in the uk. Then I thought surely I could get a programmable calculator and create one. Which led me to another question. Can a programmable calculator be made to run payroll calculations (todouble check payslips obviously) If so can any one recommend one. I notice that alot of the graphical calculators are programmable but I dont want a graphic one as they are not allowed in to the exams etc. G === Subject: Re: Programmable Calculator > Then I thought surely I could get a programmable calculator and create > one. Which led me to another question. Can a programmable calculator > be made to run payroll calculations (todouble check payslips > obviously) Yes, certainly. > If so can any one recommend one. I notice that alot of the graphical > calculators are programmable but I dont want a graphic one as they are > not allowed in to the exams etc. The HP 35s is arguably the most sophisticated programmable-but-not-graphical calculator available today; it would serve you well. For what you're doing the slightly older (hence possibly cheaper) 33s would be fine too. ---Joel === Subject: Re: Programmable Calculator <22hsl.29435$rp7.22652@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com> posting-account=TxCRigoAAADD_aDhSQtU_SHz68fYrnTc CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > > Then I thought surely I could get a programmable calculator and create > > one. Which led me to another question. Can a programmable calculator > > be made to run payroll calculations (todouble check payslips > > obviously) > > Yes, certainly. > > > If so can any one recommend one. I notice that alot of the graphical > > calculators are programmable but I dont want a graphic one as they are > > not allowed in to the exams etc. > > The HP 35s is arguably the most sophisticated programmable-but-not-graphical > calculator available today; it would serve you well. > > For what you're doing the slightly older (hence possibly cheaper) 33s would be > fine too. > > ---Joel === Subject: Re: Musing on the SI Prefix Back to Bill's original question - what does happen past yotta ? A possible solution would be to start over with: kilo-yotta (10^27) mega-yotta (10^30) tera-yotta (10^33) ... yotta-yotta(10^48) At which point, you've got a lotta yotta-yotta. Besides, why would you wanta go past ^48, the 'prime' number of this group? ;-) CR >I was looking through the list of valid prefixes for the > HP49/50 unit objects (HP49G+ User Manual, p. 3-12) and > had to smile at some of them, like zepto and yocto. I > didn't see harpo and gummo, but they're probably in > there somewhere. :-) > > I remember when 32-bit processors became available and > we met the gigabyte. 32 bits could directly address four > after a mere four megabytes just to get Windows working properly. > A gigabyte looked like enough memory to last for > the next thousand years. Today some systems offer 6GB > and more. > > There was a pronunciation dispute. Most people said it > with a hard g, but some techies sounded it as > jiggabyte. They were probably correct, since it > comes from the same root as gigantic, but the giggle > factor seems to have made the hard g the standard. > > The next one up, the terabyte (10^12), was once heard > only in Star Trek technobabble, but is now common in > large hard drive systems. The petabyte (10^15) must > be just around the corner. The largest prefix is yotta > (10^24). It shouldn't be long until ya gotta hava > lotta yotta. > > The next step poses a real problem for computer users. > Not with the hardware - with the new name. What are we > going to *call* 10^27? > > > Bill === Subject: Re: Musing on the SI Prefix posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > ... FYI, a bug in Google Groups recently started replacing my name with All 30, as can be seen by my two postings here: http://tinyurl.com/azokga Strange. -Joe- === Subject: Re: Musing on the SI Prefix > FYI, a bug in Google Groups > recently started replacing my name with All 30 Perhaps it's just a Freudian slip of the mouse, wanting to be all of 30 again? After logging into Google, go to and peruse your addresses and Nicknames. . === Subject: Re: Musing on the SI Prefix posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Perhaps it's just a Freudian slip of the mouse, > wanting to be all of 30 again? Being 30 again would be nice, except for the loss of 23 years' worth of learning & fun. :-) > After logging into Google, go to > and peruse your addresses and Nicknames. All are correct. Hmm. Why do bugs seek me out? Like attracts like. Universal law. -- Richard Bach, Illusions === Subject: Re: Musing on the SI Prefix posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Test. Ignore this posting. -jkh- === Subject: Re: Musing on the SI Prefix > Test. Ignore this posting. -jkh- Why, look at that -- Joe's been born again :) . === Subject: Lithium ion 50g About a year ago, somebody made a post to this group about modifying their calculator to use a lithium ion battery. I see that someone else has done the same with the 50g, but this time posted a bunch of nice photos and detailed instructions. This was not written by me; I don't know if the author reads this group, but it wasn't yet posted here so I felt I should post it: http://www.ghettohax.com/2009/03/mod-hp50g-calculator-to-use-rechargable.htm l Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: Lithium ion 50g posting-account=v6m75AoAAAAgp3vyiLFAfyqmfMcXEPkm Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) My opinion: Pros: -2X battery life (theoretically, not thoroughly tested). -Rechargeable through USB. -DonÇt need a battery charger anymore. -An achievement feeling if you DIY. Cons: -You can kill your expensive calculator in the process. -Takes time. Time is money. -LiPo batteries are dangerous to tamper with. -Not available everywhere as NiMH AAA. -When batteries die (be it aging or too many cycles) you have to hack your HP again (time consuming, risky). -If, for some reason, your batteries die in a situation when you really need your HP, you're fried, you can't just take out a fresh pack of NiMH AAA and replace batteries. USB ports or AC outlets are not available everywhere. You can go easily through many 4 hour long exams with a fresh low self- discharge AAA NiMH package. Notice low self-discharge, normal NiMH probably wonÇt make it due to high self-discharge rates. Plus, who wouldnÇt check battery status prior to an exam? Contrary to the author, I consider devices with standard batteries are more convenient, since standard batteries are always available everywhere. === Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Nuevo_foro_de_calculadoras_HP_en_espa=F1ol?= posting-account=DjP4AgoAAACXNvPye9362Yf7xRcnXipQ Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Amigos usuarios de las calculadoras hp. Hay un nuevo foro en espa.96ol exclusivo de calculadorashp, donde se organizan los temas por categor.92as. El nombre del foro es: calculadorashp La direcci.97n es: http://hpcalc.foroactivo.com/ Las categor.92as del foro son: FAQS sobre la calculadora HP General Discusion general, el pasado, el futuro, chismes y rumores de las calculadorasHP. HP 50G Los usuarios de esta calculadora tienen su espacio aqu.92. HP 49G+ Todo acerca de esta calculadora! HP 49G Todo sobre la HP49G, ayuda,trucos,... HP 48GII Acerca de la calculadora HP 48GII HP 48 Todo sobre la cl.87sica HP48 ayuda,programacion,trucos,... Programaci.97n HP User RPL Todas las pregunta, todas las respuestas, toda la imaginacion para programar en USER-RPL.Exponga sus problemas en el desarrollo de algun programa, asi como sus astucias,atajos,...[Primer lenguaje de HP series G] System RPL Llevas tiempo programando en USER y quieres pasar a otro nivel. Aqui todo lo que es un lenguaje veloz: SYStem-RPL. Debes tener conocimientos de USER-RPL antes. ML El nivel de programaci.97n m.87s bajo y poderoso: Machine Language .97 Assembler. HPGCC Compilador C HPGCC Minicampeonatos Un lugar para fomentar las habilidades y desaf.92os en la programacion de calculadoras HP 48, 49 y 50 Otros temas Bla Bla Compra-Venta y Comparaciones Aplicaciones T.8ecnicas para PC Foro de ayuda No se olviden de registrarse para poder hacer sus preguntas y colaborar con el foro. === Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Nuevo_foro_de_calculadoras_HP_en_espa=F1ol?= posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Les paso la voz. > Hay un nuevo foro sobre calculadoras hp en espa.96ol. > > La direcci.97n es: > > http://hpcalc.foroactivo.com > > Yo ya me registr.8e. Spanish comment: Probablemente est.8en usando la popularidad del foro m.87s conocido en habla hispana (AdictosHP) que por motivos ajenos se encuentra cerrada temporalmente (ahora CalculadorasHP). Conversando con el administrador de aquel sitio me coment.97 que se pretende hacer una copia de ello ya que la estructura es la misma, hasta los enunciados que yo escrib.92 para describir a ciertas secciones han sido copiadas. Creo que AdictosHP (ahora CalculadorasHP) a.9cn no perece. http://www.calculadorashp.org/ - Gaak - === Subject: Missing CCD ROM manual pages posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) While happily perusing my HP-41 CCD ROM 3-ring-binder manual last night, I noticed that pages 4.51 through 4.66 are repeated twice, and pages 4.67 through 4.82 are missing. That probably means that *somebody* got my pages, and I've got theirs. If you, kind reader, have a CCD ROM manual that has two copies of pages 4.67 - 4.82 but is missing pages 4.51 - 4.66, please drop me an email { joe horn at holy joe dot net } so that we can swap pages and get this urgent matter (24 years old! BWAH Hah hah!) settled. I need it to help build the HHC 2009 website. -Joe- === Subject: Re: Missing CCD ROM manual pages posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) FYI, the missing HP-41 CCD ROM manual pages have been replaced by email about www.hp41.org, a virtual goldmine of HP-41 goodies. -Joe- === Subject: Musing on the SI Prefix InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I was looking through the list of valid prefixes for the HP49/50 unit objects (HP49G+ User Manual, p. 3-12) and had to smile at some of them, like zepto and yocto. I didn't see harpo and gummo, but they're probably in there somewhere. :-) I remember when 32-bit processors became available and we met the gigabyte. 32 bits could directly address four after a mere four megabytes just to get Windows working properly. A gigabyte looked like enough memory to last for the next thousand years. Today some systems offer 6GB and more. There was a pronunciation dispute. Most people said it with a hard g, but some techies sounded it as jiggabyte. They were probably correct, since it comes from the same root as gigantic, but the giggle factor seems to have made the hard g the standard. The next one up, the terabyte (10^12), was once heard only in Star Trek technobabble, but is now common in large hard drive systems. The petabyte (10^15) must be just around the corner. The largest prefix is yotta (10^24). It shouldn't be long until ya gotta hava lotta yotta. The next step poses a real problem for computer users. Not with the hardware - with the new name. What are we going to *call* 10^27? Bill === Subject: Re: Musing on the SI Prefix > What are we going to *call* 10^27? Well, 1/10^27 square meters is approximately ten barns :) As big as a barn? http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1229919 The unit of beauty depends on Christopher Marlowe's Helen whose sweet face launched a thousand ships. The milliHelen is therefore the amount of beauty that can launch one ship. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Musing on the SI Prefix posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Well, 1/10^27 square meters is approximately ten barns :) A cube containing eight electrons packed together has six barn-sized faces. If the electrons are big enough. And if the barns are small enough. -Joe- A horse walks into a bar. The bartender says, Why the long face? === Subject: Re: Musing on the SI Prefix posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > I was looking through the list of valid prefixes for the > HP49/50 unit objects (HP49G+ User Manual, p. 3-12) and > had to smile at some of them, like zepto and yocto. æI > didn't see harpo and gummo, but they're probably in > there somewhere. æ:-) > > I remember when 32-bit processors became available and > we met the gigabyte. 32 bits could directly address four > after a mere four megabytes just to get Windows working properly. > A gigabyte looked like enough memory to last for > the next thousand years. æToday some systems offer 6GB > and more. > > There was a pronunciation dispute. æMost people said it > with a hard g, but some techies sounded it as > jiggabyte. æThey were probably correct, since it > comes from the same root as gigantic, but the giggle > factor seems to have made the hard g the standard. > > The next one up, the terabyte (10^12), was once heard > only in Star Trek technobabble, but is now common in > large hard drive systems. æThe petabyte (10^15) must > be just around the corner. æThe largest prefix is yotta > (10^24). æIt shouldn't be long until ya gotta hava > lotta yotta. > > The next step poses a real problem for computer users. > Not with the hardware - with the new name. æWhat are we > going to *call* 10^27? > > Bill Bill, That was very entertaining and it prompted me to do a Google search concerning the subject. SI prefix - Proposed extensions Continuing backwards in the alphabet, after zetta and yotta, proposals for the next large number include xenta and xona (among others), the latter as an alteration of the Latin-derived numerical prefix nona-, and the next small number would also start with an x. Preserving the rule on abbreviating the prefixes (a Latin capital for the large number and a lower-case letter for the small number), even without consensus on the full name the following prefix symbols could be used without ambiguity: X, W, V, x, w, v. The logically next small prefix symbol, u, is the accepted substitution for [Micro] (ISO 2955), the symbol for micro. However, even some official prefixes may not be understood by all readers, let alone extrapolations of them, so giving an explanation is advisable when using them in communication (as opposed to using them in notes for oneself). Another proposal for xenta/xona is novetta, from the Italian nove. This does not have the convenience of backward alphabetic order. There are also proposals for further harmonization of the capitalisation. Therefore the symbols for deka, hecto and kilo would be changed from k to K, from h to H, and from da to D. Likewise some lobby for the removal of prefixes that don't fit the 10±3.87n scheme, namely hecto, deka, deci and centi. The CGPM has tabled its decision on both matters for now. An unsolved (and maybe unsolvable) issue is the application of prefixes to units with exponents other than ±1. The prefix is always applied before the exponent currently. In volume measuring, for example, this inconvenience has lead to the continued use of the litre, which is one thousandth cubic metre (0.001 m3) or one cubic decimetre (1 dm3), where it could be handy to call it one milli[CapitalEth]cubic metre (1 m(m3)).84one cubic millimetre (mm3) is one thousand millionth of a cubic metre. Please see http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/SI prefix - Proposed extensions/id/5436408. Mark === Subject: HP50G integration posting-account=ZxdYUgkAAACsL2SklsD-YaTudR3vOGmy Gecko/2008100818 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Does anyone have a recommendation for integration programs for the 50G besides the internal one? The internal one dies when I have it integrate '1+x^2/(1-x^2)' from 0 to 1 whereas giac gives the correct answer in less than two seconds. Brandon Del Bel === Subject: Re: HP50G integration >Does anyone have a recommendation for integration programs for the 50G >besides the internal one? The internal one dies when I have it >integrate '1+x^2/(1-x^2)' from 0 to 1 whereas giac gives the correct >answer in less than two seconds. > >Brandon Del Bel 1.909 === Subject: Re: HP50G integration posting-account=ZxdYUgkAAACsL2SklsD-YaTudR3vOGmy Gecko/2008100818 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > >Does anyone have a recommendation for integration programs for the 50G > >besides the internal one? The internal one dies when I have it > >integrate '1+x^2/(1-x^2)' from 0 to 1 whereas giac gives the correct > >answer in less than two seconds. > > >Brandon Del Bel > > 1.909 It's pi/2. The integral represents the arc length of the unit circle in the first quadrant. === Subject: Re: HP50G integration posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > 1.909 > > It's pi/2. The integral represents the arc length of the unit circle > in the first quadrant. I think we misinterpreted your expression as sqrt((1+x^2)/(1-x^2)). instead of sqrt(1+(x^2)/(1-x^2)). Integrating from 0 to 1 gives pi/2. Use 4 FIX before integrating to reduce precision and increase speed (4 FIX returns 1.5707, which can be reasonably identified as pi/2). S.C. === Subject: Re: HP50G integration posting-account=ZxdYUgkAAACsL2SklsD-YaTudR3vOGmy Gecko/2009020911 Ubuntu/8.10 (intrepid) Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > > > > 1.909 > > > It's pi/2. The integral represents the arc length of the unit circle > > in the first quadrant. > > I think we misinterpreted your expression as > > sqrt((1+x^2)/(1-x^2)). > > instead of > > sqrt(1+(x^2)/(1-x^2)). > > Integrating from 0 to 1 gives pi/2. Use 4 FIX before integrating to > reduce precision and increase speed (4 FIX returns 1.5707, which can > be reasonably identified as pi/2). > > S.C. Are you changing it all before you enter it in your calculator? Even with 4 FIX, it seems to be stuck forever. On the other hand, my wife's TI-89 Titanium spits out the answer in a couple seconds with 12 FLOAT. I'm entering it the exact same way on both calculators. === Subject: Re: HP50G integration > > > > > > > > > > 1.909 > > > > > It's pi/2. The integral represents the arc length of the unit circle > > > in the first quadrant. > > > > I think we misinterpreted your expression as > > > > sqrt((1+x^2)/(1-x^2)). > > > > instead of > > > > sqrt(1+(x^2)/(1-x^2)). > > > > Integrating from 0 to 1 gives pi/2. Use 4 FIX before integrating to > > reduce precision and increase speed (4 FIX returns 1.5707, which can > > be reasonably identified as pi/2). > > > > S.C. > > Are you changing it all before you enter it in your calculator? Even > with 4 FIX, it seems to be stuck forever. On the other hand, my wife's > TI-89 Titanium spits out the answer in a couple seconds with 12 FLOAT. > I'm entering it the exact same way on both calculators. If one antidifferentiates (e.g. using RISCH) then evaluates the antiderivative appropriately in exact mode on the HP50, it gives the exact result quite rapidly. It is slower and less accurate evaluating the integral directly in approximate mode. === Subject: Re: HP50G integration posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > I think we misinterpreted your expression as > > sqrt((1+x^2)/(1-x^2)). > > instead of > > sqrt(1+(x^2)/(1-x^2)). > Perhaps it has to do with the Gestalt Rules and how our brain subconsciously groups objects together: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt psychology S.C. === Subject: Re: HP50G integration posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Does anyone have a recommendation for integration programs for the 50G > besides the internal one? The internal one dies when I have it > integrate '1+x^2/(1-x^2)' from 0 to 1 whereas giac gives the correct > answer in less than two seconds. > > Brandon Del Bel The antiderivative seems to be -X + LN|X+1| - LN|X-1|, and when that is evaluated at X = 1, you get -LN(0) = +infty in the third term. S.C. === Subject: Re: HP50G integration posting-account=ZxdYUgkAAACsL2SklsD-YaTudR3vOGmy Gecko/2008100818 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Ooops, I forgot the square root around the whole thing. It should be 'sqrt(1+x^2/(1-x^2))' Brandon Del Bel > > > Does anyone have a recommendation for integration programs for the 50G > > besides the internal one? The internal one dies when I have it > > integrate '1+x^2/(1-x^2)' from 0 to 1 whereas giac gives the correct > > answer in less than two seconds. > > > Brandon Del Bel > > The antiderivative seems to be > > -X + LN|X+1| - LN|X-1|, > > and when that is evaluated at X = 1, you get -LN(0) = +infty in the > third term. > > S.C. === Subject: Re: HP50G integration > Ooops, I forgot the square root around the whole thing. > It should be 'sqrt(1+x^2/(1-x^2))' 'v/(1+X^2/(1-X^2))' Isn't that the same as 'v/(1/(1-X^2))' ? Isn't that the derivative of 'ASIN(X)' ? So I guess it shouldn't be too hard to integrate. If I perform INTVX on the above, without first doing CASCFG, my CAS actually gets that answer, except for the wrong sign :) Let's try out my CAS some more: CASCFG 'ASIN(X)' 'X' .d produces '1/v/(1-SQ(X))' 'ASIN(X)' 'X' DERIV produces '1/v/(1-SQ(X))' Why isn't 'X' STOVX 'ASIN(X)' DERVX as simple? [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: HP50G integration posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > Ooops, I forgot the square root around the whole thing. > > It should be 'sqrt(1+x^2/(1-x^2))' > > 'v/(1+X^2/(1-X^2))' > > Isn't that the same as 'v/(1/(1-X^2))' ? > > Isn't that the derivative of 'ASIN(X)' ? > > So I guess it shouldn't be too hard to integrate. > > If I perform INTVX on the above, > without first doing CASCFG, > my CAS actually gets that answer, > except for the wrong sign :) > > Let's try out my CAS some more: > > CASCFG > > 'ASIN(X)' 'X' .d æ produces æ'1/v/(1-SQ(X))' > > 'ASIN(X)' 'X' DERIV produces æ'1/v/(1-SQ(X))' > > Why isn't 'X' STOVX 'ASIN(X)' DERVX as simple? > > [r->] [OFF] 'ASIN(X)' 'X' DERIV EVAL produces an atrocity similar to 'ASIN(X)' DERVX. I suppose the CAS tries to simplify the expression by rationalizing the denominator of the fraction, then arranging the polynomial inside the square root in decreasing order, and then finally factoring the denominator. Sometimes EVAL only makes things worse... S.C. === Subject: Re: HP50G integration [re 'ASIN(X)' DERVX vs 'ASIN(X)' 'X' DERIV] > Sometimes EVAL only makes things worse... One may wonder why DERVX does an extra ^CASFLAGEVAL and ^SYMCOLCT, then, whereas DERIV gives a nicer result. In fact ['ASIN(X)'] DERVX (isn't that the same thing?) is also content to leave well enough alone: [ '1/v/(1-SQ(X))' ] So one should always try to find many different ways to do every CAS task, since hardly any two ways agree :) How come they're still trying to do this integral numerically, when it's integrable symbolically? Where's the best place to get a TI-89 Titanium, for doing it the hard way? :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: HP50G integration Meanwhile, let's try it on an HP48G (with its original, non-CAS, built-in limited symbolic capability) After RAD -3 CF: 0 1 '1/v/(1-X^2)' 'X' .S Immediately we get: '1*(ASIN(X)/.dX(X))|(X=1)-(1*(ASIN(X)/.dX(X))|(X=0))' After which EVAL or ->NUM produces 1.57079632679 (correct) So don't think that the original HP48S[X]/G[X][+] wasn't pretty good, even at calculus :) Now I have some bad news for you; the numerical evaluation on either series will never give you an accurate answer, not even within a galaxy of the IERR error estimate, for any more than five decimal places. For example, the result with STD number format: On stack: 1.57078496297 IERR: -1.57077765274E-11 Actual error: -.00001136382 The modified Romberg integration method is designed to give usually good results, even when an integrand heads toward infinity at an endpoint, but what we get here is: For 4 FIX, we get 1.57070330074 with IERR=1.57064683923E-4 (ok) For 5 FIX, 1.57078490313 with 0.0000157077765274 (barely ok) For 6 FIX, 1.57078496297 with -1.57077765274E-6 (a miss) For 8 FIX, 1.57078496297 with -1.57077765274E-8 (sorry, charlie) and the answer will never vary for any higher precision. The actual problem here is an unavoidable loss of significance in computing the integrand near the endpoints; in other words, you can't accurately compute v/(1-X^2) while retaining only twelve mantissa digits in each floating result (internal integration variables may be more precise, but our formula for the integrand remains at twelve digits throughout each integrand calculation). This may also be the reason for the time it takes, although this is a bit hard to determine (for me, anyway). On the other hand, my wife's TI-89 Titanium spits out the answer in a couple seconds with 12 FLOAT What was that answer, and did it by any chance actually merely substitute the endpoints into the symbolic integrand? You can give her back her Titanium now :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: HP50G integration posting-account=ZxdYUgkAAACsL2SklsD-YaTudR3vOGmy Gecko/2008100818 Firefox/3.0.3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > [re 'ASIN(X)' DERVX vs 'ASIN(X)' 'X' DERIV] > > > Sometimes EVAL only makes things worse... > > One may wonder why DERVX does an extra ^CASFLAGEVAL > and ^SYMCOLCT, then, whereas DERIV gives a nicer result. > > In fact ['ASIN(X)'] DERVX (isn't that the same thing?) > is also content to leave well enough alone: [ '1/v/(1-SQ(X))' ] > > So one should always try to find many different ways > to do every CAS task, since hardly any two ways agree :) > > How come they're still trying to do this integral numerically, > when it's integrable symbolically? > > Where's the best place to get a TI-89 Titanium, for doing it the hard way? æ :) > > [r->] [OFF] Obviously numerical integration is silly for this. Not only can this be done by hand, but if I really wanted to know the arc length of a circle using an integral, I would use polar coordinates. Numerical integration comes in handy for some quick and dirty answers when algebraic manipulation or change of coordinates isn't worth the time. === Subject: Re: HP50G integration > 'v/(1+X^2/(1-X^2))' > Isn't that the same as 'v/(1/(1-X^2))' ? > Isn't that the derivative of 'ASIN(X)' ? > So I guess it shouldn't be too hard to integrate. > If I perform INTVX (or 'X' RISCH) on the above, > without first doing CASCFG, > my CAS actually gets that answer, > except for the wrong sign :) With a little help in re-arranging the expression, however, the CAS finally gets it: '1/v/(1-X^2)' 'X' RISCH finally: 'ASIN(X)' [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: HP50G integration posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > 'v/(1+X^2/(1-X^2))' > > Isn't that the same as 'v/(1/(1-X^2))' ? > > Isn't that the derivative of 'ASIN(X)' ? > > So I guess it shouldn't be too hard to integrate. > > If I perform INTVX (or 'X' RISCH) on the above, > > without first doing CASCFG, > > my CAS actually gets that answer, > > except for the wrong sign :) > > With a little help in re-arranging the expression, however, > the CAS finally gets it: > > '1/v/(1-X^2)' 'X' RISCH æfinally: 'ASIN(X)' > > [r->] [OFF] 1/SQRT(1-X^2) INTVX gives ASIN(X) on my 50g. Before performing CASCFG though, I got an expression involving ASIN(X) multiplied by SIGN(1-X^2) and some other factor, which resulted in the wrong sign. S.C. === Subject: Re: InformBox Field Message Handler not triggering posting-account=DjP4AgoAAACXNvPye9362Yf7xRcnXipQ Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Fuck Obama === Subject: HP50G integration INTVX includes an EVAL command, which transforms your term in an unintegrable one for the HP50G, because EVAL transforms 1/sqrt(X) in sqrt(X)/X. The integration depends on your flag settings: write { -114 -125} SF on the HP50G then from your term 'sqrt(1+x^2/(1-x^2))' you obtain with EVAL 'sqrt(1/(1-X^2))'. Even this cannot be integrated on the calc, you have to rewrite it into: '1/sqrt(1-X^2)' . Now INTVX or 'X' RISCH gives 'ASIN(X)'. With 0 1 PREVAL you get 'pi/2'. The following little program integrates your term directly: << -> f << {-114 -125} SF f EXPAND {'sqrt(1/&A)' '1/sqrt(&A)'} ^MATCH DROP INTVX {-114 -125} CF >> >> 'Intvx' STO Clemens Heuson www.heuson-software.de ----- Original Message ----- === Subject: Re: HP50G integration Ooops, I forgot the square root around the whole thing. It should be 'sqrt(1+x^2/(1-x^2))' Brandon Del Bel === Subject: Re: HP 35s Programming/Solutions Manual posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Is anyone aware of a Programming/Solutions Manual for the HP 35s? I > noticed that a company called D'Zign has a Solutions Manual for the > HP 33s, but I have the 35s. I am seeking licensure as a Professional > Land Surveyor, and the 35s is one of the few calculators allow on the > exams for becoming a Professional Land Surveyor or Professional > Engineer. > > If a manual does not exist, does anyone have plans to make one anytime > soon? I'm certain there are a lot of surveyors/engineers who would > purchase such a book. > > Jon K. Hello Jon, The way I see it, you have two options: 1. Buy an hp 33s and manual from D'Zign (the best option). 2. Buy the hp 33s manual from D'Zign and adapt the programs for your hp 35s. Best of luck on the exam! Mark === Subject: Re: HP 35s Programming/Solutions Manual posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Perhaps you could search inhttp://www.hpmuseum.org/ > for surveying. There are some older > HP calculators with a surveying pac. > The hpmuseum sells a DVD with > all the documentation of calculators > and pacs. Perhaps this is an easier > way than making a new program > > Peter The exams are not such that certain calculators are *banned*, but where only a few calculators are *allowed*. Older HP models (or newer ones with more connectivity) may not be on that allowed list. To the OP: the 35s does not have I/O, so if you were to purchase such a book of programs, you would have to enter each program in by hand. Then, since the 35s cannot save programs to nonvolatile memory, you would have to carefully change the two batteries one at a time to retain user memory, lest you re-enter all of the equations/formulae into the calculator. S.C. === Subject: Re: HP 35s Programming/Solutions Manual Then, since the 35s cannot save programs to nonvolatile memory, you would have to carefully change the two batteries one at a time to retain user memory, lest you re-enter all of the equations/formulae into the calculator. Or get two calculators, using one as a manual backup to the other. === Subject: Re: Musing on the SI Prefix posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > Well, 1/10^27 square meters is approximately ten barns :) > > A cube containing eight electrons packed together has six barn-sized > faces. æIf the electrons are big enough. æAnd if the barns are small > enough. > > -Joe- > A horse walks into a bar. The bartender says, Why the long face? A sandwich walks into a bar. The bartender says, We don't serve your kind in here. === Subject: Re: HP48 ROM source code I've found a best solution :) I've used SADHP by Mika Heiskanen, and it's a powerfull tool ! It reverse-engineere the entire ROM in only 5 seconds !!!! I've already 'uncompile' all rom's revision source code :) A to R :) Bruno > stfox a .8ecrit >> Hi ! >> >> I recently worked on Stacker4x project with Yann, >> what awaked my passion about HP48 :) >> I therefore went through this newsgroup in which >> I did not have access during my years secondary schools, >> and of discovery in discovery, I came across this post : >> >> >> Obviously ROM source are in circulation :) >> >> So my question is: Somebody would have the HP48 ROM source code (S and >> G), >> and could provide them me please ? >> >> Graal quest would be over ? lol >> I hope ... >> >> Excuse me for my poor English... :( >> >> Bruno > > You can use Paul's HP48 emulator that automatically decompile the code > http://www.courbis.fr/Emulateur-decompilateur-Saturn.html > > === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 >>> Fkt C(n,r) >>> r:=min(r,r-n) >>> C:=1 >>> For x=1 to r do >>> C:=C/x*n >>> n:=n-1 >>> next x >>> round (C,0) >>> end Fkt(C) >>> >>> I hope not having overlooked the obvious :-) >> >>I don't know what you mean by rounded to 0. I would simply say >>rounded to the nearest integer, and write round (C,0) as >>C:=round(C). > > the questions remains if my assumption about the neglectible rounding > error is really valid. error I discovered was for C(20,7), where it arrived at 77520.001 By the way, there's a typo in your pseudo-code. The line r:=min(r,r-n) should read r:=min(r,n-r). Scott -- Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu This isn't flying. This is falling, with style. -- Buzz Lightyear === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 Scott Hemphill meinte > >>>> Fkt C(n,r) >>>> r:=min(r,r-n) >>>> C:=1 >>>> For x=1 to r do >>>> C:=C/x*n >>>> n:=n-1 >>>> next x >>>> round (C,0) >>>> end Fkt(C) >>>> >>>> I hope not having overlooked the obvious :-) >>> >>>I don't know what you mean by rounded to 0. I would simply say >>>rounded to the nearest integer, and write round (C,0) as >>>C:=round(C). >> >> the questions remains if my assumption about the neglectible rounding >> error is really valid. > >error I discovered was for C(20,7), where it arrived at 77520.001 According to http://www.hpmuseum.org/techcpu.htm the HP65 like the other HP-Calculators of that time has a ten digit mantissa. But this would simply postpone the problem to a larger nCr. > >By the way, there's a typo in your pseudo-code. The line >r:=min(r,r-n) should read r:=min(r,n-r). At least I had it correct in the first snippet of pseudo code. G.9fnter don't drink and post :-) G.9fnter === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 > >>>> Fkt C(n,r) >>>> r:=min(r,r-n) >>>> C:=1 >>>> For x=1 to r do >>>> C:=C/x*n >>>> n:=n-1 >>>> next x >>>> round (C,0) >>>> end Fkt(C) >>>> >>>> I hope not having overlooked the obvious :-) >>> >>>I don't know what you mean by rounded to 0. I would simply say >>>rounded to the nearest integer, and write round (C,0) as >>>C:=round(C). >> >> the questions remains if my assumption about the neglectible rounding >> error is really valid. > > error I discovered was for C(20,7), where it arrived at 77520.001 Oops, that is a mistake. I left out the rounding step! Now, the first error occurs at C(27,12), where I obtain 17383861 instead of 17383860. Scott -- Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu This isn't flying. This is falling, with style. -- Buzz Lightyear === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 >>> Fkt C(n,r) >>> r:=min(r,r-n) >>> C:=1 >>> For x=1 to r do >>> C:=C/x*n >>> n:=n-1 >>> next x >>> round (C,0) >>> end Fkt(C) >> error I discovered was for C(20,7), where it arrived at 77520.001 > Oops, that is a mistake. I left out the rounding step! Now, the > first error occurs at C(27,12), where I obtain 17383861 instead of > 17383860. If the multiplication is always done before the division at each step, then shouldn't no error ever occur, until some multiplication causes a loss of significance, only then leading to any rounding (or truncation, whatever the case may be)? If I hadn't lent my little Casio grapher to someone for Tax Time (last year) I might have been able to post the same sort of experimental program ask for my calculator back (now remind me to whom I lent it :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 <4mtar4d9dribt8b95lqk5bhirghakmich8@4ax.com> posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > If the multiplication is always done before the division at each step, > then shouldn't no error ever occur, until some multiplication > causes a loss of significance, only then leading to any rounding > (or truncation, whatever the case may be)? Correct. That was the point of my proposal earlier in this thread, quoted below: > ... avoid fractions entirely (which would avoid roundoff errors), > by removing all of the parentheses from the first expression and > then executing it directly, left to right. The expression referred to is: >> 1*(20)*(19/2)*(6)*(17/4)*(16/5)*(5/2)*(2)*(13/8)*(4/3) As you mentioned, this has the benefit of all the divisions coming out exact. -Joe- === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 Joe Horn meinte > >> If the multiplication is always done before the division at each step, >> then shouldn't no error ever occur, until some multiplication >> causes a loss of significance, only then leading to any rounding >> (or truncation, whatever the case may be)? > >Correct. That was the point of my proposal earlier in this thread, >quoted below: > >> ... avoid fractions entirely (which would avoid roundoff errors), >> by removing all of the parentheses from the first expression and >> then executing it directly, left to right. > >The expression referred to is: > >>> 1*(20)*(19/2)*(6)*(17/4)*(16/5)*(5/2)*(2)*(13/8)*(4/3) > >As you mentioned, this has the benefit of all the divisions coming out >exact. But if you refer to the expression mentioned above, the GCD-method was already applied. Dividing first and multiplying afterwards will give always exact values without any fraction, until you exceed the maximum number of digits for integer representation on the calculator. G.9fnter === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 > >> If the multiplication is always done before the division at each step, >> then shouldn't no error ever occur, until some multiplication >> causes a loss of significance, only then leading to any rounding >> (or truncation, whatever the case may be)? > > Correct. That was the point of my proposal earlier in this thread, > quoted below: > >> ... avoid fractions entirely (which would avoid roundoff errors), >> by removing all of the parentheses from the first expression and >> then executing it directly, left to right. > > The expression referred to is: > >>> 1*(20)*(19/2)*(6)*(17/4)*(16/5)*(5/2)*(2)*(13/8)*(4/3) > > As you mentioned, this has the benefit of all the divisions coming out > exact. They're all exact, as long as your product stays within the 8-digit precision of the calculator. Just in case it wasn't clear, the purpose of doing the divide first was to make sure that you would stay within 8 digits if it was at all possible, and the purpose of doing the GCD first was to ensure that all divisions were exact. Scott -- Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu This isn't flying. This is falling, with style. -- Buzz Lightyear === Subject: Re: Factorials and Combinations on HP 65 > They're all exact, as long as your product stays within the 8-digit > precision of the calculator. HP65 must have had ten digits; multiples of 2 and of 5 come along at intervals, and results sometimes still remain exact beyond 10^10, so long as there are not yet too many leading significant digits. I believe that the same method as is being discussed is used internally in HP calculators which have built-in functions, also employing long reals which retain more precision (13-15 digits in older series), permitting combinations to be computed way beyond where factorials would have overflowed, whereas IIRC one of my Casios takes the cheap route of using the simple combinations formula involving three factorials, judging by the fact that it can go no farther than about N=69, where any larger N! by itself overflows its 10^100 range, even though Comb(100,50) for example, barely exceeds 1E29 IIRC, I believe an HP15C can compute Comb(300,150), and somewhat larger, but certainly can not do 300! or 150! [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation - Rectangular and Polar Sure, a user guide ought to offer some insight into how to deal with the usual different coordinate systems: 2D: Rectangular, Polar 3D: Rectangular, Cylindrical, Spherical Firstly, these calculators support not only individual numeric objects, but also single objects that represent a complex number, and single vector objects having two or three components, representing coordinates in a plane or in space. All of these calculator objects are always internally stored with rectangular coordinates. This means that you can always apply operators (addition, etc.) to these whole objects, which takes care of all their coordinates at the same time. However, we may at times need to express any such object using another set of coordinates: polar, cylindrical or spherical. Previous generations of calculators may have required explicitly converting a set of individual coordinates from one system to another, but all HP48/49/50 calculators have these conversions built in, to occur automatically. To cause all complex numbers and all 2D and 3D numeric vectors to be automatically displayed in a particular coordinate system, use one of these commands to set the display mode: RECT - display the rectangular coordinates of each object. CYLIN - display the cylindrical coordinates of each object. SPHERE - display the spherical coordinates of each object. When either complex numbers or 2D vectors are displayed, either CYLIN or SPHERE results in the display of polar coordinates. Here is the format in which each type of coordinates is displayed, where for purposes of posting in plain ascii, I am using the character @ in place of what is actually an angle symbol <) in the actual calculator: 2D objects (complex numbers or numeric vectors) (3,4) or [3. 4.] Rectangular (x,y) or [x y] (5,@53.13) or [5. @53.13] Polar (r,@theta) or [r @theta] 3D objects (numeric vectors) [2. 3. 6.] Rectangular [x y z] [3.61 @56.31 6.00] Cylindrical [r @theta z] [7.00 @56.31 @31.00] Spherical [r @theta @phi] You may similarly use any of the above coordinates when entering new objects into the calculator, by simply entering the same formats as shown above; the calculator then automatically converts the entered coordinates before storing the object, and immediately re-displays the object in the current display mode. You may thus convert any type of coordinates to any other, by setting the display mode to the type of result you want, then enter the inputs you want. For example, to convert rectangular input to polar, with angles in degrees, first set up: DEG CYLIN Then input (3 4) and see result (5.00,@53.13) To convert polar to rectangular, set up: DEG RECT Then input (5@53.13) and see result (3.00,4.00) Note that input numbers need only be separated by either a space or an angle symbol; commas may be omitted. Vectors must be input with real numbers for all coordinates, otherwise (on HP49/50) they will be stored as symbolic arrays (object type 29), to which coordinate conversion does not apply. We thus see how coordinate conversion is automatic, for both display and input of complex numbers, 2D and 3D vectors. Commands are also available, however, for a program to use to explicitly convert coordinates from one mode to another. The V-> command splits any complex number, 2D or 3D vector into separate numerical coordinates in the currently set modes. For example, with (5.00,@53.13) displayed on the stack, V-> produces separate coordinates 5.00 and 53.13 Note that the current RECT, CYLIN or SPHERE display mode determines to what coordinate system the results are converted, while the current RAD, DEG or GRAD mode is used for angular units. Obviously, the calculator is using the same conversion internally, each time it automatically displays an object, which is why the V-> command produces the same values as were just being displayed. Similarly, the ->V2 or ->V3 command combines separate numerical coordinates, in the currently set modes, into a single object. For example, CYLIN 5.00 53.13 ->V2 produces either [ 5.00 @53.13 ] or (5.00,@53.13) -- you may choose whether ->V2 creates either a vector or a complex number, by the state of system flag -19. Note that the current RECT, CYLIN or SPHERE display mode determines what coordinate system the inputs are interpreted as representing, while the current RAD, DEG or GRAD mode is used for angular units. Once again, the displayed result contains the same values as just input. ->V2 and ->V3 also access the same internal functions which the calculator uses automatically during input of vectors and complex numbers, when angle symbols are present in the input. Where to find commands and the angle symbol: The MTH VECTR menu (4 MENU) of all HP48G/49G/50G calculators contains the commands V-> ->V2 ->V3 [NXT] RECT CYLIN SPHERE The angle symbol is on the keyboard of HP48[S/G] calculators, and may be assigned to any key on HP49G/50G series calculators; for example: 128 CHR 102.2 ASN -62 SF will assign the angle symbol to left-shifted zero, replacing the infinity symbol; otherwise it also has a default location of Alpha right-shift 6, or one may use the built in CHARS application. Historical note: The R->P and P->R commands of older calculators, which did not handle single objects containing multiple coordinates, and instead transformed two separate inputs into two separate outputs, may be simulated like this: << RECT ->V2 CYLIN V-> >> 'R->P' STO << CYLIN ->V2 RECT V-> >> 'P->R' STO Older calculators had no indicator to remind you whether you had left the results as rectangular or polar coordinates, but in the HP48/49/50, the current coordinate mode indicator at the top of the screen (XYZ vs R@Z vs R@@) will remind you. SysRPL notes: Entry points %REC>%POL and %POL>%REC, which are in turn called when required by the newer conversion functions above, also duplicate those historical functions, each requiring two real inputs (beware, as always, that internal functions may crash or corrupt memory on wrong input). Complete (and safe) SysRPL programs: (P->R) :: CK2&Dispatch 2REAL %POL>%REC ; (R->P) :: CK2&Dispatch 2REAL %REC>%POL ; [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation - Rectangular and Polar Menu for quick coordinate conversions (HP48G/49G/50G) Here we resurrect the RAD and POLAR mode toggles and the convenient Angle symbol key from the HP48[S/G][X/+] as well as 2D and 3D from the HP48S[X] (see below), plus OB-> (rectangular internal components of any complex, 2D or 3D vector, regardless of coordinate display mode) plus historical R->P and P->R functions. What are 2D and 3D on the HP48S[X] keyboard? http://www.hpmuseum.org/img/48s/48sm.jpg http://www.hpmuseum.org/img/48s/48sxm.jpg According to Craig Finseth: http://www.finseth.com/hpdata.html [see Craig's note] http://www.finseth.com/hpdata/hp48sx.php [current HP48SX info] 2D assemble or disassemble a 2d vector 3D assemble or disassemble a 3d vector [I'm only guessing below that this means via V-> ->V2 and ->V3, which is why a separate OB-> is also offered here] << { { Rad << -17 DUP IF FS? THEN CF ELSE SF END >> } { Polar << -16 DUP IF FS? THEN CF ELSE SF END >> } <) @ Angle symbol { 2D << IF DUP TYPE THEN V-> ELSE ->V2 END >> } { 3D << IF DUP TYPE THEN V-> ELSE ->V3 END >> } { OB-> << IF DUP TYPE 1 == THEN C->R ELSE ARRY-> DROP END >> } DEG RAD GRAD RECT CYLIN SPHERE { R->P << RECT ->V2 CYLIN V-> >> } { P->R << CYLIN ->V2 RECT V-> >> } { } { } { } @ add more functions here { EXIT << 0 MENU >> } } TMENU >> 'COORD' STO You can make that a permanent menu (CUSTOM key on 49/50, CST key on 48) by using MENU in place of TMENU. Miscellany (from Craig's page): The product number (48) was chosen to be a combination of 41 and 28 Craig also quotes Greg Sanker from HP, as of Apr 07 1992: I checked with the Hardware folks, and here is the scoop: There was a specific problem that may or may not occur in a limited production of units. The problem has been isolated to the LCD and has been resolved with the vendor. The potentially defective LCD's were installed in HP 48s with serial numbers ranging 3013AXXXXX thru 3044AXXXXX. Symptoms of the problem are a pronounced black spot in the upper left hand corner of the display and/or dark/missing columns 3,5,7 and/or 9. If a unit is failing for the above reasons, subject to verification by the Corvallis Service Center, it will be covered as part of the standard warranty, even if the standard warranty period has expired. [End of quote] Try attaching this to your defunct HP49G+ with the keys nearly falling off, and mail it to HP's CEO, as a reminder of how things were before the founders (and nearly the company?) died. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation - Rectangular and Polar John H Meyers kirjoitti viestiss.8a:op.uqnllsx2nn735j@miu.edu... > Sure, a user guide ought to offer some insight > into how to deal with the usual different coordinate systems: X > Note that input numbers need only be separated > by either a space or an angle symbol; commas may be omitted. Only in RPN In ALG-mode you still need the comma In the EQW you omit the ( ) and simply use the comma BUT you can't use angles in the EQW :-( One single simple enhancement that I'd like to see is Complex number solving in polar in the EQW using units (5_V @ 45_o)+(-2_V @ X) =(3_V @ -0.1_r) Then press SOLVEVX key (rename to SOLVX) If you say you can't rename I say use dual names like: LAST => LASTARG LIMIT => lim GRAPH => PICTURE *H => SCALEH *W => SCALEW SX^2 => SX2, Where S=Sigma SY^2 => SY2, Where S=Sigma SX*Y => SXY, Where S=Sigma CLUSR => CLVAR ...you get the point SOLVX would be easily distinguished from SOLVE in menus The same applies for the SIGMAVXÂ Problems remain to ASIN2..C/T => ASN2C ASN2T CONST CONSTANTS => MCONSTANTS (*) EXPAN EXPAND EXPANDMOD => EXPND MODEXPND (@) FACTOR FACTORMOD FACTORS => MODFACTOR LFACTORS PROMPT PROMPTSTO => STOPROMPT SCALE SCALEH SCALEW => SCALH SCALW STURM STURMAB => SIGNZEROS UNASSIGN UNASSUME => UNASGN ... VISIT VISITB => VISIB SOLVE SOLVEQN SOLVER SOLVEVX Hard 2 solve..hmm... SOLV SOLVEQN MSOLVER SOLVX (*) any menu should simply start with 'M' MALGEBRA,MARITH,MCOMPLEX,MCONSTANTS, MEXP&LN,MINTEGER,MMAIN,MMATHS, MMODULAR,MPOLYNOMIAL,MREWRITE, MSOLVER,MTESTS,MTRIGO Multisolver commands may become confusing: MSLV,MSOLVR,MUSER Therefore I think maybe they should be small letters algebra,arith,complex,.... OR Malgebra,Marith,Mcomplex (@) Anything ending ...MOD is starting MOD.. MODADDT,MODDIV,MODEXPAND, MODFACTOR,MODGCD,MODINV, STOMOD -- this goes the other way around (this is rather a storing command) ,MODMULT,MODPOW,MODSUBT PLOT Types should also start with 'P' OR be written as in the 2D/3D CHOOS menu Function,Polar,Parametric Note: 2289 MENU contains the plot commands mentioned above and ...TAB commands, which should start with TAB... except for the STAT2TAB 2057 MENU commands are used internally only FACT and ! remain separate commands RATIO is only used in some special cases for / There are other special cases in the Command Line Interpreter and other places in the system so this would be no big deal if we think about the skill needed, not the job hours involved Just the same one could rename PCAR => PCHAR DROITE => STRAIGHT to set the language straight (eg. pardon my french: JYA, CdB, BP,...) Actually I think that Professor Parisse would do some CAS enhancements and extra commands for free (see 2.10-7) if ' HP would release the CAS under GPL (or similar) === Subject: Re: 50G 'new user' documentation - Rectangular and Polar I neglected to note that H48S[X] calculators do not have RECT, CYLIN or SPHERE commands, but one can create equivalents: RECT: << -16 CF >> CYLIN: << -16 SF -15 CF >> SPHERE: << -16 SF -15 SF >> The HP48S[X] does have the almost as good convenience of the RAD/POLAR display toggles and the angle symbol, however, right on the keyboard: http://www.hpmuseum.org/img/48s/48sm.jpg http://www.hpmuseum.org/img/48s/48sxm.jpg Are 2D and 3D (on above keyboards) shortcuts for V-> ->V2 and ->V3 (which the HP48G[X] already lost)? Note how all the Last operations are grouped together! My, it makes you long to have a useful keyboard again :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 > Well after roughly a week of moderate use of the much beloved 50g with > ROM 2.14, I have had no other issues other than the initial hiccup > with Port 2. I have cleared flag 40, which still without fail > triggers the initial problems and never triggers them if said flag > is cleared, not sure if I actually used the time anyways... The appearance of the tip of the iceberg (also reported relative to the independent HP Equation library) suggests a larger problem looming. There's evidently a minefield in the 2.14 ROM (marked beta and not supported, after all), and no one knows where or what will blow up, particularly when using any third-party software, which used to reliably work across all versions (when written properly, following guidelines). Want to fly with a pilot who has had only a few epileptic seizures, but none thus far today? At least it's more exciting than the dull old routine of no crashes for quite a long while :) Can anyone find this ROM via an HP web site? Is anyone gaining any benefit from it? If you are brave, please help test this, but it is not supported http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=7097 [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 <49c26783$0$15292$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <49c361e0$0$23613$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Is anyone gaining any benefit from [ROM 2.14]? Yes, but only because it has the StreamSmart aplet built in. If you don't use a StreamSmart, I do NOT recommend upgrading to 2.14 due to port-2-related problems already described in this thread. -Joe- === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 > Anyone with any lower level sw experience, knows this implicitly; > and correspondingly knows use of such entry points are at best risky... The highly experienced and proficient Dr. Bill Wickes, who designed the RPL architecture, knew exactly what he was doing, and rather brilliant implementation (thoroughly explained in the apparently still unread rplman.doc), HP had an innovative, winning (and profitable) series of calculators, superior to any competition, for a long while. Too bad you weren't around back then, to correct him and improve things, but you could always join HP now, spearhead the next wave of successful products, then wait 20 more years to have someone like you come along, to tell you what an idiot you were. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-48_series [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 <49c26783$0$15292$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <49c361e0$0$23613$426a74cc@news.free.fr> posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > Anyone with any lower level sw experience, knows this implicitly; > > and correspondingly knows use of such entry points are at best risky... > > The highly experienced and proficient Dr. Bill Wickes, > who designed the RPL architecture, > knew exactly what he was doing, > and rather brilliant implementation > (thoroughly explained in the apparently still unread rplman.doc), > HP had an innovative, winning (and profitable) series of calculators, > superior to any competition, for a long while. > > Too bad you weren't around back then, to correct him and improve things, > but you could always join HP now, spearhead the next wave of successful products, > then wait 20 more years to have someone like you come along, > to tell you what an idiot you were. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-48 series > > [r->] [OFF] Actually, I don't believe I criticized it's implementation; but merely observed there are inherent risks associated with relying on such an implementation's entry points remaining constant. (John, I apologize for upsetting you; let's please put this behind us; as I believe everyone understands our respective positions. I promise I won't post on the subject any further, so you may have the last word if you wish.) === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 #%%##% Again RPN-posting, sorry There are stable supported entries They stay that way If there is a bug then it will be fixed Just wait...be patient! ____________________________________________________ schlie kirjoitti > > Anyone with any lower level sw experience, knows this implicitly; > > and correspondingly knows use of such entry points are at best risky... > > The highly experienced and proficient Dr. Bill Wickes, > who designed the RPL architecture, > knew exactly what he was doing, > and rather brilliant implementation > (thoroughly explained in the apparently still unread rplman.doc), > HP had an innovative, winning (and profitable) series of calculators, > superior to any competition, for a long while. > > Too bad you weren't around back then, to correct him and improve things, > but you could always join HP now, spearhead the next wave of successful > products, > then wait 20 more years to have someone like you come along, > to tell you what an idiot you were. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-48_series > > [r->] [OFF] Actually, I don't believe I criticized it's implementation; but merely observed there are inherent risks associated with relying on such an implementation's entry points remaining constant. (John, I apologize for upsetting you; let's please put this behind us; as I believe everyone understands our respective positions. I promise I won't post on the subject any further, so you may have the last word if you wish.) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions > it may be helpful/useful to treat flag -27 as merely a display preference, > indicating whether complex values are displayed in the form (R,I) or R+I*i That's exactly what it is, except that it refers only to the display of specific algebraic expressions, in fact only to the exact form 'R+I*i' which can be displayed in the alternate form '(R,I)' It's implicitly assumed that R and I are themselves real-valued; otherwise '(R,I)' may not even represent the true Real and Imaginary parts. Note, however, that neither 'R+i' nor 'R+i*I' 'I*i+R' are displayed as '(R,1)' or '(R,I)'; the intent was to recognize algebraic expressions in one specific form only, simply as a display convenience, which is not always even rigorously correct, as noted. There is only one display format for complex number objects, however, consisting of two purely numeric components (or coordinates) within parentheses, separated by a comma (or semicolon) to positively distinguish this display from what otherwise could be construed (or reinterpreted) as parentheses around an algebraic expression for one single number. It seems that even Mathematica uses the same form, so why isn't it good enough for simpler calculators? http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ComplexNumber.html > (2+3i) being a complex value One would not need both 'i' and parentheses to denote complex values. Is there some problem with the output (display) always being displayed in an unambiguous form which is always re-enterable in any mode, even if there exist specific shortcuts for typing input in each mode? The UserRPL compiler has always, by the way, treated 4i (or 4X etc.) as two separate objects, which the ALGebraic mode parser then further implicitly multiplies. An operator (e.g. +) is also never displayed unless it is present in the object being displayed (this differs from signifying only a signed real number) Even in RPN entry mode, by the way, in case you did not know, you may enter any expression in `these` quotes (96 CHR) to apply ALG mode rules and get immediate evaluation, e.g. `3+4i` instead of using 'these' quotes (39 CHR) which are only for unevaluated standard algebraic expressions. Between `these` quotes you may actually type anything that may be accepted in ALG mode, including commands, with their explicit arguments, e.g. `SWAP(2,3)` which is absolutely invalid in standard algebraic expressions. When creating a new system, one is free to propose any new structure and set of rules, but after a given system is long established in maintaining a set of rules and conventions, long relied upon for maintaining consistency, and even directly used by internal instructions for displaying and parsing text, which have become embedded into many programs, the sudden breaking of those rules and precedents has good reason for being avoided, just as in other areas of life (e.g. systems of law, in which precedent is respected to establish consistency and reliability, overthrowing which is done only for seriously necessary purposes). While one does not want to prevent progress by locking oneself into absolutely unchangeable perspectives, it is just as hazardous to destroy the solid platform on which one is currently standing, before having fully constructed another of equal completeness and soundness, to take its place. > if HP were to open source their tools Already done (back in 1991) http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=235 This is what all third-party software was built upon, and included a reliable set of hooks to call OS functions, which you seem all to eager to abandon, without a replacement, pretty akin to sawing off the tree branch upon which one sits :) Suppose the next version of Windows were to require you to obtain the source code for every third party program you have ever used (if you could even get it), and re-compile (and link) it for yourself, with it being likely that you would even have to make quite a few changes to the source (if available at all), which in fact was required for many ports of HP48 software to HP49/50. It is not a thing to be done without serious consideration, and, because of the real threat to loading anything incompatible in binary form, should be accompanied by considering the modified ROM to be a new calculator series, as already explained several times. > then selectively at their discretion choose to adopt some variant > as their own official release Despite NIH etc? (and many legal ramifications). Why don't you even have HP49/50 version 2.10 available, which fixed a number of bugs, improved execution speed (via more ARM-accelerated commands that were earlier missed), and was produced in November 2006, by the very same persons who had officially made all the previous versions for HP; yet HP would not provide it, nor apparently let anyone else do so. Every field progresses by infusion of some new blood, but when unaccompanied by appreciating its inheritance from the past, and lessons learned from experience, can also simply fall flat on its face. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions I forgot to mention that `these` quotes in RPN mode (used for interpreting anything as if entered in ALG mode, which immediately evaluates, implies multiplication, and permits command input) are produced by the ['] key when RightShift is held down, on both the original HP49G (which required RightShift anyway) and the later 49G+/50G/48Gii, which made two swaps in original key functions, [EQW]<->['] and [CAT]<->[EVAL] as a slight concession to all the people who know that original RPN mode has a whole lot more to offer than ALG mode :) Meanwhile, the string (2+3i) remains invalid in UserRPL, and remains invalid even if interpreted as (2+3*i) because an algebraic expression is invalid where two separate real numbers are required. The string '(2+3*i)' is valid, however, and unambiguously represents an algebraic expression, not a complex number object. In ALG mode (or with `this quoting`), even the former strings are valid, but finally become complex number objects only by virtue of transforming even algebraic expressions to numeric values, like using ->NUM which is intended to occur by default only in ALG mode. It's an important principle to retain compatibility between the decompiler (which makes strings for displaying objects) and the compiler (which parses strings into objects), so that they are true inverses of each other, without introducing ambiguity or incompatibility, at least when in STD display mode with binary wordsize 64 (other display modes are intended to hide some displayed details, or to insert commas in numbers, etc.) and Exact mode for input (Approx. mode is intended to substitute reals for pure integers). The onboard editor in fact always decompiles using those modes, so that you will get back what you started with after editing (recompiling) the text, which is comforting to those who need a little stability in life :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > ... > Meanwhile, the string (2+3i) remains invalid in UserRPL, - thereby requires the syntax to be extended to become valid, meaning the parser may be extended without invalidating an otherwise valid meaning. (Requiring the extension of the language to facilitate.) Fully understanding it's not currently valid. (which some may like, others not; but without harm as best as I can tell). I don't mean to sell this to you, but rather just enumerate thoughts and solicit feedback, as you have done; thank you. (I simply strongly prefer consistency, and have the benefit, if it can be called that, of not being so intimately familiar with User/SysRPL's syntax that it's second nature to me, so as to discount what may be otherwise needlessly inconsistent between algebraic and RPL mode syntax and/or semantics; again merely in my opinion, nothing more. So please let me toy with some thoughts, who knows, some may rub off :) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions JHM: >> Meanwhile, the string (2+3i) remains invalid in UserRPL > thereby requires the syntax to be extended to become valid, meaning > the parser may be extended without invalidating an otherwise valid > meaning. (Requiring the extension of the language to facilitate.) Are you ready to implement it? Have you thought it through to any logical conclusion, as to how to actually do what you propose? Would you also reduce and accept other equivalent algebraic expressions, and differentiate and exclude those which can not be reduced to having two definitely real-valued components, e.g (2+3*i) vs. (2+i*3) vs. (3*i+2) vs. (a+b*i) vs. (2+3*x) ? I leave it as an exercise to figure out why it's not even possible to do this at all (besides life is short, and ROM is full :) Hint: it would have to remain valid and unambiguous syntax, even within other algebraic expressions, but 'X+(2+3*i)' and 'X+(2,3)' are distinctly different expressions, only one of which contains a complex number object, while the other simply has parentheses around some grouped terms. With flag -27 cleared, these each look identical on the stack, but they are internally distinct, which could no longer be unambiguously entered, after your suggested improvement. The key thing is that more is involved than just equivalence of algebraic expressions -- it's also necessary to recognize and differentiate completely different object types, by having a fundamentally distinct syntax for them, including when some objects are embedded within others. It's far easier to invent things to expect others to implement than to follow through to actually doing them, but it's a good exercise to try carrying one's proposals through more analysis, and prove their feasibility, before directing other people to try to fight one's own (lost) causes. This is why it may be good to first explore possibilities, ask questions and get more information, leaving conclusions to the end, rather than Sentence first - verdict afterwards http://www.online-literature.com/carroll/alice/12/ Perhaps the same might apply before writing legislation, or formulating critical policies, or going to war. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions > Perhaps the same might apply before writing legislation, > or formulating critical policies, or going to war... Lest the unanticipated consequences wreak havoc with large segments of civilization, as every so often still occurs. . === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > Perhaps the same might apply before writing legislation, > > or formulating critical policies, or going to war... > > Lest the unanticipated consequences wreak havoc > with large segments of civilization, > as every so often still occurs. > > . Fully agree. === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) John (and/or others): What's the magic incantation to prevent algebraic expressions containing roots of i from being converted to either it's perverse expansion in exact mode (as the simplify i flag seem only to enables its antithesis, or favors the 2nd root of -1 being substituted), as I can't seem to find a proper combination of flags to request i be maintained symbolically in it's simplest representational form? i.e.: (1+i)^1/2 desiring optionally either => 2/root/(1+i) or (1+i) ^1/2 (and by the way, thank you: the use of `` is very helpful on occasion) Overall, the reason I'm wrestling with thoughts related to the representation of complex values and/or equations containing them or i; is there seems to be potential benefit to optionally unifying their algebraic and value representation; which is presently eluding me. As CAS on one hand does recognize that i is a special value, on the other seems to work against the user by often perversely applying it in ways often not helpful in truly simplifying equation's representation containing it. Thereby can't help but wonder if complex value and equation representation were optionally more similar, their symbolic use/ application may be more similarly consistent. Or whether there is any value to having an equation's representation retain i as a symbolic variable having special value, vs. always reducing it to a component of a complex value who's display is simply consistent with it's typical algebraic representation. === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Thereby for example: if the use of i in an equation implicitly meant (0,1) but simply having an alterative textual representation; as (2+3i) ^1/2 may implicitly simply mean (2,3)^1/2 optionally displayed in its algebraic equivalent form. The use of i becomes merely an syntactic element of the specification of complex value; just as the use of a '.' within a numeric value implicitly specifies a real value; i.e.: 3.2^1/2 simply represents a real value raised to a power. Then there would be no need for the otherwise special variable i, as it becomes merely a syntactic element of a complex number's alternative specification and/or representation; and thereby nicely unifies the representation and manipulation of equations containing complex value terms, some of which may simply having no real components, thereby: Ni == N*i == N*(0,1) == (0,N) == Ni 2+3i == 2+3*i == 2+3*(0,1) == 2+(0,3) == (2,3) == 2+3i As R+/-Ii becomes merely an alternative syntactic representation of (R,I); with i no longer being a special variable; as to do so only confuses the likely most proper algebraic manipulation of equations containing complex values, as i is most accurately not a variable, but rather designates the imaginary term of a complex value. (Yes, to do so would not be necessarily trivial, however doable with access to relevant sources and ability to rebuild the ROM; however without access, the issue becomes moot, unless those with access choose to consider it's implementation.) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions schlie kirjoitti > Ni == N*i == N*(0,1) == (0,N) == Ni > > 2+3i == 2+3*i == 2+3*(0,1) == 2+(0,3) == (2,3) == 2+3i X I wonder why you don't suggest polar or e^ forms.. === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Mar 22, 2:17æpm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > schlie kirjoitti > > > Ni == N*i == N*(0,1) == (0,N) == Ni > > > 2+3i == 2+3*i == 2+3*(0,1) == 2+(0,3) == (2,3) == 2+3i > > X > I wonder why you don't suggest > æpolar or e^ forms.. My mistake; correspondingly all equivalent forms should be displayed by default according to set preferences (and be automatically converted to which ever form may be expected as function arguments without having to change modes; presuming that one of the forms may represent it's canonical internal storage representation.) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Lastly related to the subject, and likely substantially more easily implemented, it would be nice even in it's current (R,I) form; if it were possible to specify that complex values were represented in a reduced display precision form, likely in combination with the ability to more finely control the displayed precision of standard formatted values, so that complex values may more conveniently fit within a single stack without having to be otherwise use a smaller font to do so. As although it may be nice to display many digits of precision for real values, fewer digits of displayed precision are typically sufficient for complex values. I believe. === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > ... > > (2+3i) being a complex value > > One would not need both 'i' and parentheses to denote complex values. - Only to enable both RPL and algebraic modes were to support the same complex number syntax, and differentiate between algebraic expressions happening to contain the reserved variable i, and complex values. > Is there some problem with the output (display) always being displayed > in an unambiguous form which is always re-enterable in any mode, > even if there exist specific shortcuts for typing input in each mode? - only by preference, as summarized at the end of the prior post. > The UserRPL compiler has always, by the way, treated 4i (or 4X etc.) > as two separate objects, which the ALGebraic mode parser > then further implicitly multiplies. - yes, they don't yield the same results. > An operator (e.g. +) is also never displayed unless it is present > in the object being displayed (this differs from signifying > only a signed real number) - unless a additional alternative syntax for complex values was adopted. > Even in RPN entry mode, by the way, in case you did not know, > you may enter any expression in `these` quotes (96 CHR) > to apply ALG mode rules and get immediate evaluation, > e.g. `3+4i` > instead of using 'these' quotes (39 CHR) > which are only for unevaluated standard algebraic expressions. > > Between `these` quotes you may actually type > anything that may be accepted in ALG mode, > including commands, with their explicit arguments, > e.g. `SWAP(2,3)` > which is absolutely invalid in standard algebraic expressions. - I wasn't aware, thank you. (although seems a bit awkward to use) > When creating a new system, one is free to propose any new structure > and set of rules, but after a given system is long established > in maintaining a set of rules and conventions, > long relied upon for maintaining consistency, > and even directly used by internal instructions for displaying > and parsing text, which have become embedded into many programs, > the sudden breaking of those rules and precedents has good reason > for being avoided, just as in other areas of life (e.g. systems of law, > in which precedent is respected to establish consistency and reliability, > overthrowing which is done only for seriously necessary purposes). > > While one does not want to prevent progress by locking oneself into > absolutely unchangeable perspectives, it is just as hazardous > to destroy the solid platform on which one is currently standing, > before having fully constructed another of equal completeness > and soundness, to take its place. - seemingly, as long as previously accepted input remains valid, and new features only leverage otherwise previously invalid input; I see no harm. Merely IMHO. > > if HP were to open source their tools > > Already done (back in 1991)http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=235 - also need commented ARM source and tool-chain ideally. > This is what all third-party software was built upon, > and included a reliable set of hooks to call OS functions, > which you seem all to eager to abandon, without a replacement, > pretty akin to sawing off the tree branch upon which one sits :) - actually interested in refining the rom implementation. > Suppose the next version of Windows were to require you > to obtain the source code for every third party program you have ever > used (if you could even get it), and re-compile (and link) it for yourself, > with it being likely > that you would even have to make quite a few changes to the source > (if available at all), which in fact was required for many ports > of HP48 software to HP49/50. - being why most OS's only warrant binary compatibility for programs relying on inherently portable entry points (sorry, couldn't resist :) > It is not a thing to be done without serious consideration, - fully agree. > and, because of the real threat to loading anything incompatible > in binary form, should be accompanied by considering the modified ROM > to be a new calculator series, as already explained several times. > > > then selectively at their discretion choose to adopt some variant > > as their own official release > > Despite NIH etc? (and many legal ramifications). - Can't help NIH, the rest can be dealt with. > Why don't you even have HP49/50 version 2.10 available, - I don't know, why? > which fixed a number of bugs, improved execution speed > (via more ARM-accelerated commands that were earlier missed), > and was produced in November 2006, > by the very same persons who had officially > made all the previous versions for HP; > yet HP would not provide it, > nor apparently let anyone else do so. > > Every field progresses by infusion of some new blood, > but when unaccompanied by appreciating its inheritance from the past, > and lessons learned from experience, can also simply fall flat on its face. - agreed, it's much easer to fail, than to succeed. === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions I hate when my newsreader leaves out the quoting. Then I RPN-post Googling Parisse+LGPL+CAS http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/english.html (and some other links, too) You could modify something yourself... _________________________________________________________ schlie kirjoitti On Mar 21, 2:41 pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > schlie kirjoitti > As John had noted, with flag -27 set, 2+3*i is displayed as such if in > > textbook mode. > > > However oddly, as expressions like 2+3*X when added for example yield > > 2+3*X+2+3*X not 4+6*X, as one would reasonably expect? It would be > X > > Further, it may be helpful/useful to treat flat -27 as merely a > > display preference, indicating whether complex values are displayed in > > the form (R,I) or R+I*i; or alternatively as to my knowledge (3+4i) is > > X > no, no, no to all of this > > you have ideas and they might be even good > but you clearly have no idea of the current situation in HP This is true, I have no idea what the situation at HP is. (However, I can't help but wonder if it may make sense if HP were to open source their tools and code to allow the community to have a go at it; and then selectively at their discretion choose to adopt some variant as their own official release; as just another thought.) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Mar 21, 4:59æpm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > I hate when my newsreader leaves out the quoting. > Then I RPN-post > Googling Parisse+LGPL+CAShttp://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/english.html > (and some other links, too) > You could modify something yourself... > > schlie kirjoitti > On Mar 21, 2:41 pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > > > > > schlie kirjoitti > > As John had noted, with flag -27 set, 2+3*i is displayed as such if in > > > textbook mode. > > > > However oddly, as expressions like 2+3*X when added for example yield > > > 2+3*X+2+3*X not 4+6*X, as one would reasonably expect? It would be > > X > > > Further, it may be helpful/useful to treat flat -27 as merely a > > > display preference, indicating whether complex values are displayed in > > > the form (R,I) or R+I*i; or alternatively as to my knowledge (3+4i) is > > > X > > no, no, no to all of this > > > you have ideas and they might be even good > > but you clearly have no idea of the current situation in HP > > This is true, I have no idea what the situation at HP is. > > (However, I can't help but wonder if it may make sense if HP were to > open source their tools and code to allow the community to have a go > at it; and then selectively at their discretion choose to adopt some > variant as their own official release; as just another thought.) Doesn't seem possible without all the source code, and possibly tools to build the rom image as expected? === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > On Mar 21, 4:59æpm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > > > > > I hate when my newsreader leaves out the quoting. > > Then I RPN-post > > Googling Parisse+LGPL+CAShttp://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/english.html > > (and some other links, too) > > You could modify something yourself... > > > > schlie kirjoitti > > On Mar 21, 2:41 pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > > > > schlie kirjoitti > > > As John had noted, with flag -27 set, 2+3*i is displayed as such if in > > > > textbook mode. > > > > > However oddly, as expressions like 2+3*X when added for example yield > > > > 2+3*X+2+3*X not 4+6*X, as one would reasonably expect? It would be > > > X > > > > Further, it may be helpful/useful to treat flat -27 as merely a > > > > display preference, indicating whether complex values are displayed in > > > > the form (R,I) or R+I*i; or alternatively as to my knowledge (3+4i) is > > > > X > > > no, no, no to all of this > > > > you have ideas and they might be even good > > > but you clearly have no idea of the current situation in HP > > > This is true, I have no idea what the situation at HP is. > > > (However, I can't help but wonder if it may make sense if HP were to > > open source their tools and code to allow the community to have a go > > at it; and then selectively at their discretion choose to adopt some > > variant as their own official release; as just another thought.) > > Doesn't seem possible without all the source code, and possibly tools > to build the rom image as expected? Or rather should have said doesn't seem reasonably possible ..., as I doubt it's worth anyone's time to attempt to reverse engineer the latest rom image, try to figure out what it's doing, and then appropriately commenting the code and building helper tools to allow the remaining process to begin. === Subject: Re: display freezes when INPUT called from STARTOFF > Here is a simplified version of what I have in STARTOFF: Well, something which may have been simplified out might turn out to be significant, but it seems that the issue can be reproduced, using exactly the following: > I use this to display a message on every power-on. > I also have the OFF key remapped to call STARTOFF. > When I run STARTOFF manually (i.e. by pressing the OFF key), > everything works as expected. Input displays my message and returns > me to the stack prompt when I hit ENTER. However, if the calculator > was auto-powered off, the display freezes when I hit ENTER from the > INPUT screen until I press another key. That is, the INPUT arrow > cursor stops blinking (although the colon in the clock continues to > blink) and nothing happends until I press another key. When I do > press another key, then the calculator processes that key press and > takes me to the stack prompt. > This is just a minor inconvenience that amounts to one extra key press > every time I power on my calculator. However, I would like to > understand why this happens and fix it if possible. > My system is an hp50g with ROM 2.09. > Can any one reproduce this behavior or shed any light on why it happens? I am reproducing it in Emu48 right now, with your above program in 'STARTOFF' and #A000h (five seconds) in 'TOFF' (and the OFF key mapped to :: TakeOver x<< ID STARTOFF x>> ; ) I do not know why this happens, but it seems very reminiscent of something called the busy bug: However, turning on the clock display does not fix your reproduced problem, so the cause may be different. One thing about your program, however, is that if a second automatic OFF occurs, while waiting for input from the first execution of the program, now we have two INPUT commands stacked up, and things get a bit weird. An alternative technique has been used in such situations (actually more often applied to STARTUP, which also has restrictions), which is to schedule another program to be executed a few seconds later, via STOALARM, by which time STARTUP (or STARTOFF) will have exited. The following illustrates the principle... << OFF WHILE DATE TIME OVER DATE =/ REPEAT DROP2 END @ midnight-proof 0.0002 HMS+ IF DUP 24 >= THEN 24 HMS- SWAP 1 DATE+ SWAP END @ this is two seconds later, hopefully also ok near midnight 'STARTOFF' STO Now works for me, in Emu48. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: display freezes when INPUT called from STARTOFF posting-account=Q2B9agoAAABiapwQkFDtkmVYOTp97267 Gecko/2009020911 Ubuntu/8.10 (intrepid) Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hi John, > An alternative technique has been used in such situations > (actually more often applied to STARTUP, which also has restrictions), > which is to schedule another program to be executed a few seconds later, > via STOALARM, by which time STARTUP (or STARTOFF) will have exited. > > The following illustrates the principle... > > << OFF > WHILE DATE TIME OVER DATE =/ REPEAT DROP2 END @ midnight-proof > 0.0002 HMS+ IF DUP 24 >= THEN 24 HMS- SWAP 1 DATE+ SWAP END > @ this is two seconds later, hopefully also ok near midnight > 'STARTOFF' STO > I have thoroughly enjoyed your responses and have learned a great deal from them. You may be amused to find out that my STARTOFF is actually based on one of your posts from 2007: i.e. it displays return information and password protects further access to the calculator functions. I had a close call the other day when I accidentally left my 50g in the computer lab. Fortunately, it was still there when I went back for it, but the experience prompted me to search for a solution like this. I wonder if you encountered this problem yourself when using that program? Or perhaps you've come up with something better since then. I found that I can unfreeze the display while still calling INPUT from within STARTOFF by setting an alarm to run a trivial program. I prefer this solution because INPUT is called before the stack ever gets displayed. << -55 CF OFF DO IFERR DO { } TMENU 'Owner' RCL 0 ->HEADER IFERR { { 9 1 } } + SWAP INPUT THEN END 2 ->HEADER THEN 0 ELSE 1 END UNTIL END 2 MENU WHILE DATE TIME OVER DATE =/ REPEAT DROP2 END @ midnight-proof 0.0001 HMS+ IF DUP 24 >= THEN 24 HMS- SWAP 1 DATE+ SWAP END @ this is one second later, hopefully also ok near midnight << DELALARM 1 DROP>> 3 ->LIST STOALARM DROP >> Ned === Subject: Re: display freezes when INPUT called from STARTOFF > You may be amused to find out that my STARTOFF > is actually based on one of your posts from 2007: > i.e. it displays return information and password protects further > access to the calculator functions. I had a close call the other day > when I accidentally left my 50g in the computer lab. Fortunately, > it was still there when I went back for it, but the experience > prompted me to search for a solution like this. > I wonder if you encountered this problem yourself when using that program? No problem; I still have the same STARTUP (which is not STARTOFF), although what's posted above is simply the last of many separate programs which is called from my STARTUP (or I can call just the above program manually, by typing its name, which can be conveniently shortened to 'XX' :) If I replace my own STARTOFF with your suggestion, however, calling the above from STARTOFF, _then_ it would have the same problem. > I found that I can unfreeze the display while still calling INPUT > from within STARTOFF by setting an alarm to run a trivial program. Any control alarm aborts (kills) any suspended program (including the command line editor), with an error number #DFFh, which has no corresponding message, and can not be trapped, e.g. IFERR #DFFh DOERR THEN 123 END will not leave 123 on the stack. Other interesting special (and untrappable) error numbers are: #13Eh DOERR @ same as CONT #123h DOERR @ same as KILL Meanwhile, here's another (simpler) solution to your problem, without setting any alarms: << OWNER #10E001h FLASHEVAL >> 'STARTOFF' STO @ where OWNER, as in above-quoted post, @ begins with OFF and waits for your INPUT The called function is: SysDisplay (normally #2EF67h SYSEVAL on 49/50, but I'm spooked by hearing of new roms which don't support standard entry points -- YMMV if even the FLASHPTRs change :) Upon deep reflection, it may not be too surprising that this helps; one may wonder whether the busy bug (occurring just when the processor goes into light sleep, which is more active than OFF but still not running) causes its problem in any similar way. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: display freezes when INPUT called from STARTOFF posting-account=Q2B9agoAAABiapwQkFDtkmVYOTp97267 Gecko/2009020911 Ubuntu/8.10 (intrepid) Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Meanwhile, here's another (simpler) solution to your problem, > without setting any alarms: > > << OWNER #10E001h FLASHEVAL >> 'STARTOFF' STO > @ where OWNER, as in above-quoted post, > @ begins with OFF and waits for your INPUT > > The called function is: SysDisplay (normally #2EF67h SYSEVAL on 49/50, > but I'm spooked by hearing of new roms which don't support > standard entry points -- YMMV if even the FLASHPTRs change :) Ned === Subject: Re: display freezes when INPUT called from STARTOFF None of these work if the person knows the calculator well... _______________________________________________ sledb kirjoitti Hi John, X from within STARTOFF by setting an alarm to run a trivial program. I prefer this solution because INPUT is called before the stack ever gets displayed. << -55 CF OFF DO IFERR DO { } TMENU 'Owner' RCL 0 ->HEADER IFERR { { 9 1 } } + SWAP INPUT THEN END 2 ->HEADER THEN 0 ELSE 1 END UNTIL END 2 MENU WHILE DATE TIME OVER DATE =/ REPEAT DROP2 END @ midnight-proof 0.0001 HMS+ IF DUP 24 >= THEN 24 HMS- SWAP 1 DATE+ SWAP END @ this is one second later, hopefully also ok near midnight << DELALARM 1 DROP>> 3 ->LIST STOALARM DROP >> Ned === Subject: Re: display freezes when INPUT called from STARTOFF << OFF On second thought, make that << OFF MEM DROP Because one doesn't want a potentially long GC to cause the alarm to be completely missed. As you can see, most of the program exists to guard against infrequent (but possible) situations, because the Devil is in the details :) See the Murphy Was an Optimist section of the 1996 Woodruff Distinguished Lecture at Georgia Tech Yes, But Will It Work in Theory? by Norman R. Augustine, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Lockheed Martin Corporation http://web.archive.org/web/19970705234218/www.me.gatech.edu/me/publicat/AugT ranscript.htm http://sunnyday.mit.edu/16.355/Augustine.htm http://www.me.gatech.edu/docs/transcripts-96.pdf Quoting it: At the very first launch of the Space Shuttle, in 1981, there were millions of people watching on television, and there were an equally impressive number of people at Cape Canaveral awaiting the launch. Quite appropriately, the designers of the Shuttle had built great redundancy into the new craft, including a total of five computers - four general purpose computers and a back-up flight computer. The trick was that the timing on those computers had to be perfectly synchronized. On the very first attempted launch of the Shuttle, they could not get the computers to synchronize. It was a dreadfully hot day, and most of us were standing around outside the control center in the blazing sun for five or six hours, while the engineers tried to figure out why the computers wouldn't cooperate. One engineer said all you have to do is unplug the computers and plug them in again and it'll work fine. Nobody was willing to accept that, but it turned out later he was correct. To the great credit of the scientists and engineers working the problem - and particularly to the appreciation of the astronauts onboard - the programmers didn't take the easy way out. They wanted to know why the computers would not synchronize. After much discussion and review, the riddle was finally solved. What had happened? In the original configuration of the software, there was an event that had to be initiated, and there was a one-second-long window during which this event could be initiated. There was a fifty-millisecond delay built in, and then the event would take place. If the event took place before 60.522 milliseconds from the end of the window, the sequence would work effortlessly. If the event was initiated after that point, the computer had been programmed to try it twice more - and then shut down because something obviously was wrong. That was the way it was designed to work. For some reason - and I don't remember any longer what the reason was - the engineers improved the design. Boy, that's sudden death when engineers improve designs! ==> Half the failures we've had in our lives have been because of that. <== The engineers, for some reason, decided to make the 50 milliseconds 80.26 milliseconds. And then they tested that in the system tests. By this point they had completed most of the systems tests, but they went back and re-tested this change. They did it several times, entered the sequence at random times, and everything worked just fine. As luck would have it, all the tests were just fine, but on the very first flight when they entered the sequence, they randomly hit at the very tail end of the window. There was only one chance in 67 that this could happen, and as Murphy would have predicted, it had to happen on the first flight. As a result, the system shut down and we had to wait a full day to figure out what had gone wrong. So in spite of having all these computers to protect you and give you backup, it doesn't always work. [End of quote] So good luck with all those other changes and improvements to the HP48/49/50 series decompiler and compiler :) At one point, JYA was thinking of re-writing GC, which is an extremely critical part of the RPL OS, but IIRC the original (from Wickes' days?) is still there. No change is a small change (another section of the above lecture, from which I learn more at every re-reading) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Double big font posting-account=dsOA3woAAACVwsouLbhkxNVYKLry0EBb Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Congratulations, friends! It exists a quickli program that creates a double big font, like blind in hp48 (http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=2638), in the hp50g??? Also it would be able to be in the Pict environment. Sorry for my automatically translated English. === Subject: Re: Double big font posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Congratulations, friends! > > It exists a quickli program that creates a double big font, like > blind in hp48 (http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=2638), in the > hp50g??? > > Also it would be able to be in the Pict environment. > > Sorry for my automatically translated English. The Blind engine uses to GRX2 to make double. GRX2 is a command available on Hack library for 48 series developed by Mika, and for 49 series maintained by Gaak. http://hp.Gaak.org - Gaak - === Subject: Re: Double big font > Is there a program that creates a double big font, > like 'blind' for hp48 > http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=2638 > for the hp50g??? For anyone just discovering and wanting to use this on HP48, the version currently at the above location is the original version (542 byte binary file), which works, but will hang on exit (via CONT) if it is started from the HP48 series editor (e.g. by typing its name into the command line). An updated corrected version (572 byte binary file, with complete explanation) is on Goodies Disk #11 (in UTILS directory): http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=242 http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/compilations/horn/horn11.zip Another reference to this program: There are many unsupported entry points in that program (which must at least have been stable in HP48 series), and it was based on the 5x7 stack font of the HP48 series, which may not be present in the HP49/50 series, while the HP49/50 series has several other choices of fonts in which the stack can be displayed, as well as different screen heights in different models, so it might be challenging to duplicate that program on HP49/50 series. > Also it would be able to be in the Pict environment. If you mean only to create GROBs (images) from text, that would be different (and I would expect easier) than to reproduce a generalized version of the original stack display program. E.g. 1.2345 ->STR 3 ->GROB Result on HP48: Graphic 36 x 10 (fixed 5x7 stack font) Typical result on HP49/50: Graphic 36 x 8 (varies with current system font height) Now all you need is a program for multiplying the dimensions of a grob. Here's one: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3138 http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/graphics/misc/softgraph.zip Try, for example: 1.2345 ->STR 3 ->GROB 2 TMY DUP SCROLL I have also tried its TMX command, but results are not what I'd expect. Are there any other such tools? [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Double big font posting-account=dsOA3woAAACVwsouLbhkxNVYKLry0EBb Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Now all you need is a program for multiplying the dimensions of a grob. > > Here's one:http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3138http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/grap h ics/misc/softgraph.zip > > Try, for example: 1.2345 ->STR 3 ->GROB 2 TMY DUP SCROLL > > I have also tried its TMX command, but results are not what I'd expect. > > Are there any other such tools? With the softgraph, if, by example, the grob has size 8 x 24, putting 16 (8*2) in the stack level 2, 72 (24*3) in the stack level 1 and applying the command RESIZE I have exactly what was necessary. Very, a lot grateful! === Subject: LIST VERSUS VECTORS posting-account=c-Jc4woAAAA18oLSdtiQO88Zf36AsP2t .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I have owned both the 48g and now I own the 50g. Is there a diference between the operations on lists between the two computer calculators? 1) Using the define function I wish to take a 20% discount from three prices; function is D(X) = (X - 0.2 * X ) + 0.06 * (X- 0.2 * X) ( assume 6% tax) (set to fix 2) 2) Create a list { 20 40 60 } 3) Create a vector [ 20 40 60 ] 4) Apply the D function to the list and I get { 16. 32. 48. .96 1.92 2.88} 5) Apply the D function to the vector I get [ 16.96 33.92 50.88 ] 6) Obviously the function is being applied twice to the list i.e adding the first and the 4th number equals the correct discount and so does 2nd and 5th of the list produce the correct discount...etc. 7) Is this an error in the 'function applied to a list' program ? It seems to me that the 48g applied the function to a list as expected. Or perhaps I am missing some detail ?? === Subject: Re: LIST VERSUS VECTORS > I have owned both the 48g and now I own the 50g. Is there a difference > between the operations on lists between the two computer calculators? Not between G and G (but definitely between S and G) > Using the define function > I wish to take a 20% discount from prices, > [and then add 6% tax] > function is... 'D(X)=(X-0.2*X)+0.06*(X-0.2*X)' DEFINE > Apply the D function to the list If you mean like this: { 20 40 60 } D then even on HP48G I also get (wrong) result: { 16 32 48 .96 1.92 2.88 } The problem is in how to apply things to a list, which is more carefully done on all G calculators using DOLIST, e.g.: { 20 40 60 } 1 << D >> DOLIST Result (correct): { 16.96 33.92 50.88 } Or (on HP49/50 series only): { 20 40 60 } << D >> MAP Result (correct): { 16.96 33.92 50.88 } Although only after first being forced by the CAS to change some modes :( Meanwhile, [ 20 40 60 ] D gives (also correct) result: [ 16.96 33.92 50.88 ] Now let's change your function, just slightly: 'D(X)=(X-0.2*X) ADD 0.06*(X-0.2*X)' DEFINE Now, even { 20 40 60 } D gives (correct) result: { 16.96 33.92 50.88 } Do you see why? For whole lists as objects, + means to concatenate, not to add, which had to be retained for consistency with the HP48S[X]; that's why the ADD function was defined in the HP48G series, as a perfectly valid operator in algebraic expressions, which always means add, even when operating on lists. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: LIST VERSUS VECTORS posting-account=c-Jc4woAAAA18oLSdtiQO88Zf36AsP2t .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > I have owned both the 48g and now I own the 50g. æIs there a difference > > between the operations on lists between the two computer calculators? > > Not between G and G (but definitely between S and G) > > > Using the define function > > I wish to take a 20% discount from prices, > > [and then add 6% tax] > > function is... > > 'D(X)=(X-0.2*X)+0.06*(X-0.2*X)' DEFINE > > > Apply the D function to the list > > If you mean like this: { 20 40 60 } D > then even on HP48G I also get > (wrong) result: { 16 32 48 .96 1.92 2.88 } > > The problem is in how to apply things to a list, > which is more carefully done on all G calculators using DOLIST, e.g.: > > { 20 40 60 } 1 << D >> DOLIST > Result (correct): { 16.96 33.92 50.88 } > > Or (on HP49/50 series only): > { 20 40 60 } << D >> MAP > Result (correct): { 16.96 33.92 50.88 } > Although only after first being forced by the CAS to change some modes :( > > Meanwhile, [ 20 40 60 ] D > gives (also correct) result: [ 16.96 33.92 50.88 ] > > Now let's change your function, just slightly: > > 'D(X)=(X-0.2*X) ADD 0.06*(X-0.2*X)' DEFINE > > Now, even { 20 40 60 } D > gives (correct) result: { 16.96 33.92 50.88 } > > Do you see why? > > For whole lists as objects, + means to concatenate, not to add, > which had to be retained for consistency with the HP48S[X]; > that's why the ADD function was defined in the HP48G series, > as a perfectly valid operator in algebraic expressions, > which always means add, even when operating on lists. > > [r->] [OFF] that using the ADD function with lists creates two list and then addss them ?? While the '+' creates one list with results from two === Subject: Re: LIST VERSUS VECTORS > that using the ADD function with lists creates two list and then addss > them ?? While the '+' creates one list with results from two They both take two lists and return one list. An example will probably help { 1 2 3 } { 10 20 30 } ADD returns { 11 22 33 } { 1 2 3 } { 10 20 30 } + returns { 1 2 3 10 20 30 } I suggest you try some examples for yourself. === Subject: Re: LIST VERSUS VECTORS Nate Eldredge kirjoitti viestiss.8a:861vsptg89.fsf@vulcan.lan... > >> that using the ADD function with lists creates two list and then addss >> them ?? While the '+' creates one list with results from two > > They both take two lists and return one list. > > An example will probably help > > { 1 2 3 } { 10 20 30 } ADD returns { 11 22 33 } > { 1 2 3 } { 10 20 30 } + returns { 1 2 3 10 20 30 } > > I suggest you try some examples for yourself. { 1 2 3 } { 10 20 30 } NEG - returns { 11 22 33 } === Subject: Re: LIST VERSUS VECTORS 'D(X)=(X-0.2*X)-0.06*(0.2*X-X)' DEFINE _________________________________________________________ John H Meyers kirjoitti viestiss.8a:op.uq6i1wbonn735j@miu.edu... > I have owned both the 48g and now I own the 50g. Is there a difference > between the operations on lists between the two computer calculators? Not between G and G (but definitely between S and G) > Using the define function > I wish to take a 20% discount from prices, > [and then add 6% tax] > function is... 'D(X)=(X-0.2*X)+0.06*(X-0.2*X)' DEFINE > Apply the D function to the list If you mean like this: { 20 40 60 } D then even on HP48G I also get (wrong) result: { 16 32 48 .96 1.92 2.88 } The problem is in how to apply things to a list, which is more carefully done on all G calculators using DOLIST, e.g.: { 20 40 60 } 1 << D >> DOLIST Result (correct): { 16.96 33.92 50.88 } Or (on HP49/50 series only): { 20 40 60 } << D >> MAP Result (correct): { 16.96 33.92 50.88 } Although only after first being forced by the CAS to change some modes :( Meanwhile, [ 20 40 60 ] D gives (also correct) result: [ 16.96 33.92 50.88 ] Now let's change your function, just slightly: 'D(X)=(X-0.2*X) ADD 0.06*(X-0.2*X)' DEFINE Now, even { 20 40 60 } D gives (correct) result: { 16.96 33.92 50.88 } Do you see why? For whole lists as objects, + means to concatenate, not to add, which had to be retained for consistency with the HP48S[X]; that's why the ADD function was defined in the HP48G series, as a perfectly valid operator in algebraic expressions, which always means add, even when operating on lists. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: LIST VERSUS VECTORS > 'D(X)=(X-0.2*X)-0.06*(0.2*X-X)' DEFINE By which he is illustrating another way to eliminate the + operator from an expression, by rewriting the expression to use - after changing the sign of what was formerly added, whereas the ADD operator was provided to directly replace + in a more straightforward way. In HP49/50, one could also use AXL D AXL on a list, leaving 'D' as it was, or if an alien, stand on one's left ear, while facing Betelguese :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betelgeuse Note that this star could already have exploded (supernova), so be sure to go out every evening, and look for something brighter than the moon in the night sky (and be sure to phone or fast blast George Noory if you spot it) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: New Social Graphic Network posting-account=clnLhgoAAABXgsR1rqWXC5zssVzrwMpz Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7, Ant.com Toolbar 1.3 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello every one I created New Social Graphic Network, where any one can publish his/her work, join me and share your work there, it is interested with Photoshop, wallpapers, music, movies, video, photography, drawing,...and thing you love to do come and share it with us. http://wallpapers4stars.ning.com with love Redrose139 === Subject: Using STAT mode to SUM rows posting-account=7OS_CAoAAABr2aaw7eKrVJfoiJ8Rom3f AppleWebKit/528.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Safari/528.16,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello everyone. I have a 48SX. In STAT mode I can create a matrix and sum columns. Is there an easy way to add the rows? === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows cylurian kirjoitti > Hello everyone. I have a 48SX. In STAT mode I can create a matrix > and sum columns. Is there an easy way to add the rows? > transpose the matrix a small program perhaps? === Subject: Re: Using STAT mode to SUM rows posting-account=7OS_CAoAAABr2aaw7eKrVJfoiJ8Rom3f AppleWebKit/528.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Safari/528.16,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Mar 23, 12:50æam, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > cylurian kirjoitti > > > Hello everyone. æI have a 48SX. æIn STAT mode I can create a matrix > > and sum columns. æIs there an easy way to add the rows? > > > transpose the matrix > a small program perhaps? Any built in ones? === Subject: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? _____________________________________________ Miscellany (from Craig's page): The product number (48) was chosen to be a combination of 41 and 28 Craig also quotes Greg Sanker from HP, as of Apr 07 1992: I checked with the Hardware folks, and here is the scoop: There was a specific problem that may or may not occur in a limited production of units. The problem has been isolated to the LCD and has been resolved with the vendor. The potentially defective LCD's were installed in HP 48s with serial numbers ranging 3013AXXXXX thru 3044AXXXXX. Symptoms of the problem are a pronounced black spot in the upper left hand corner of the display and/or dark/missing columns 3,5,7 and/or 9. If a unit is failing for the above reasons, subject to verification by the Corvallis Service Center, it will be covered as part of the standard warranty, even if the standard warranty period has expired. [End of quote] Try attaching this to your defunct HP49G+ with the keys nearly falling off, and mail it to HP's CEO, as a reminder of how things were before the founders (and nearly the company?) died. _______________________________________ #&% &%& === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? posting-account=HLB0wQoAAADFCl1K6ZIYOA1tkfCtYfW9 Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) The environMENTAL movement is the real reason that ALL manufacturers have abandoned reasonable paper based documentation, like good manuals. The cost of a good manual far exceeds the cost of the calculator itself. The same is true of housing and construction in general. In America, the price of the lumber alone to build a typical house is about 1/3 the price of the house (and we're talking yellow pine, a very low quality wood). Not to mention all the wild fires from undercut, diseased forests that have become hazards from not being able to remove dead/diseased trees and undergrowth because it is now illegal to remove any of it. So, thank all the tree huggers out there for the decline of quality, paper based docs. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > The environMENTAL movement is the real reason that ALL manufacturers > have abandoned reasonable paper based documentation, like good > manuals. False. The quality of a manual has no bearing on whether it is printed on paper or distributed electronically. Companies are simply hiding behind the environmental movement and using it as a cover as to why they refuse to include printed copies of manuals. They could be trying to be environmentally friendly, but this still doesn't explain why the actual *content* of the manuals is going down in quality. > The cost of a good manual far exceeds the cost of the > calculator itself. Again, companies are no longer including large paper manuals because of one reason: cost cutting. A CD-ROM with the manual in PDF format costs pennies whereas a physical printed book costs much more. In this age, large companies only care about increasing their profit margins, though helping the environment is a convenient excuse they can use to try to boost public image and corporate profits at the same time. > Not to mention all the wild fires from > undercut, diseased forests that have become hazards from not being > able to remove dead/diseased trees and undergrowth because it is now > illegal to remove any of it. Forests have become fire hazards because people have been putting out little fires for too long. Forest fires are natural processes that clear the forest of brush and return nutrients to the soil. Trees routinely survive forest fires (their bark can protect them) as they help fertilize the forest. With human intervention, however, Smokey the Bear has encouraged people to put out all forest fires for about a century. As a result, organic matter in forests has reached an unnaturally high level, and this is what makes forest fires so dangerous now. With all that additional fuel, forest fires now burn larger and longer and trees can no longer survive the huge burn. Salvage logging, which you suggest, has been scientifically shown to be detrimental to forest health. Dead or diseased trees/logs contain nutrients that will be naturally decomposed and returned to the soil. Flip over a dead log and you will find thousands of insects living on or in it. They are working to decompose the log and return nutrients to the soil. Removing these dead logs removes the nutrients and harms the forest. > So, thank all the tree huggers out there for the decline of quality, > paper based docs. And we will be blaming all the tree choppers out there for the decline of quality air and water for Earth. Money won't help you if the environment is destroyed; there will be nowhere to spend money and money certainly is not edible. S.C. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > money certainly is not edible. Well, I dunno.... I mean, paper money collects lots of dead skin cells and skin oils and other organic goodies. Someday soon, when the US prints so many dollars that they become unspendable, we might be able to survive on them! Just boil a pot of water (by burning a pile of money under it), throw a few bundles of dollar bills into the boiling water, let it simmer a while, fish out the money and throw it away, and serve the soup hot. Hot Buck Soup. Mmm, mmm, good! [Bizarre But True: the pioneering mountain men had leather tassels on their clothes not for decoration but for survival. When food ran out during tough winters, they survived by ripping some tassels off and boiling them. Hot Leather-Tassel Soup, with leather noodles. Yum!] Sorry for digressing from the digression already in progress. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? Mat.16:26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life? _________________________________________ kirjoitti X And we will be blaming all the tree choppers out there for the decline of quality air and water for Earth. Money won't help you if the environment is destroyed; there will be nowhere to spend money and money certainly is not edible. S.C. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? > The environMENTAL movement is the real reason that ALL manufacturers > have abandoned reasonable paper based documentation, like good manuals. A good PDF manual uses no paper, but there aren't good PDF manuals, either. It appears to me that all modern manuals are created on computers and distributed as PDFs, downloadable from manufacturer web sites, or supplied with a product on a CD, even if a copy is sometimes printed to accompany a product. Despite this, the quality of HP (and other) calculator manuals remains less than is known to be achievable, and the reasons can not possibly have anything to do with paper or trees or environment. -[ ]- === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? > _____________________________________________ > Miscellany (from Craig's page): > > The product number (48) was chosen to be a combination of 41 and 28 > > Craig also quotes Greg Sanker from HP, as of Apr 07 1992: > > I checked with the Hardware folks, and here is the scoop: > > There was a specific problem that may or may not occur in a limited > production of units. The problem has been isolated to the LCD and > has been resolved with the vendor. The potentially defective LCD's > were installed in HP 48s with serial numbers ranging 3013AXXXXX thru > 3044AXXXXX. Symptoms of the problem are a pronounced black spot > in the upper left hand corner of the display and/or > dark/missing columns 3,5,7 and/or 9. > > If a unit is failing for the above reasons, > subject to verification by the Corvallis Service Center, > it will be covered as part of the standard warranty, > even if the standard warranty period has expired. > > [End of quote] > > Try attaching this to your defunct HP49G+ with the keys nearly falling > off, > and mail it to HP's CEO, as a reminder of how things were before the > founders > (and nearly the company?) died. > _______________________________________ > #&% &%& > > I think everyone will agree that HP is no longer the high-end company it once was. It hasn't been for many years. Just look at the manuals. Compare a 25C or 67/97 manual with a 48 or 50g. In the old manuals, the colors, layout, language, spiral binding, etc. make the information easy to assimilate. The new manuals are all black & white and poorly laid out. You have to dig to find useful information - they're just plain hard on the eyes. HP used to be the world leader in programmable calculators. Now they just want to compete with Casio. I think the marketing types took the reins from the engineers. I recently told someone at HP that I think the ones that innovate and lead are usually not the ones that make the most money, but they usually make the most history. It's a sacrifice you must be willing to take. It's more of a leader/entrepeneur philosophy than an accounting or marketing one more accustomed to just making more money. After all, Ferrari doesn't make the most money selling cars, but they sure have some world class machines. Something really, really nasty happend to HP along the way. I hope they recover. -John === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? reply-type=response Importance: Normal > I think everyone will agree that HP is no longer the high-end company it > once was. It hasn't been for many years. Just look at the manuals. > Compare a 25C or 67/97 manual with a 48 or 50g. In the old manuals, the > colors, layout, language, spiral binding, etc. make the information easy to > assimilate. The new manuals are all black & white and poorly laid out. You > have to dig to find useful information - they're just plain hard on the > eyes. HP used to be the world leader in programmable calculators. Now they > just want to compete with Casio. I think the marketing types took the > reins from the engineers. I recently told someone at HP that I think the > ones that innovate and lead are usually not the ones that make the most > money, but they usually make the most history. It's a sacrifice you must > be willing to take. It's more of a leader/entrepeneur philosophy than an > accounting or marketing one more accustomed to just making more money. With threats of lawsuits hanging over them, publicly traded US companies must maximize short-term profits for investors. Making history doesn't count at all. Maybe that's why our economy is in the shape it is. Tom Lake === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? posting-account=GT4frAoAAADMvAtJu2WIOkYTwgy0O29T 1.1.4322; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > I think everyone will agree that HP is no longer the high-end company it > > once was. æIt hasn't been for many years. æJust look at the manuals. > > Compare a 25C or 67/97 manual with a 48 or 50g. æIn the old manuals, the > > colors, layout, language, spiral binding, etc. make the information easy to > > assimilate. æThe new manuals are all black & white and poorly laid out. æYou > > have to dig to find useful information - they're just plain hard on the > > eyes. æHP used to be the world leader in programmable calculators. æNow they > > just want to compete with Casio. æ æI think the marketing types took the > > reins from the engineers. æI recently told someone at HP that I think the > > ones that innovate and lead are usually not the ones that make the most > > money, but they usually make the most history. æ æIt's a sacrifice you must > > be willing to take. æIt's more of a leader/entrepeneur philosophy than an > > accounting or marketing one more accustomed to just making more money. > > With threats of lawsuits hanging over them, æpublicly traded US companies > must maximize short-term profits for investors. æMaking history doesn't > count at all. æMaybe that's why our economy is in the shape it is. > > Tom Lake With threats of lawsuits hanging over them, publicly traded US companies must maximize short-term profits for investors. The motive again is greed. We have a sick society with people devoting thier every waking moment to the persuit of more money. If a person is healthy, has a place to live, clothes to ware, food to eat, and reliable transportation, what more does anyone deserve? What more should they want? There is a mistaken notion that wealth makes for a secure satisfying happy life. It doesn't. Just ask Bernie Madoff. When we as a society start condeming greed, then our economy will turn around. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? > I think everyone will agree that HP is no longer the high-end company it > once was. It's a shame the calculator business went to HP rather than Agilent. While Agilent isn't at the same level of quality that the old HP was either, they're certainly a lot closer than the new HP. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? Joel Koltner kirjoitti viestiss.8a:vrhul.34196$UR4.1478@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com... >> I think everyone will agree that HP is no longer the high-end company it >> once was. > > It's a shame the calculator business went to HP rather than Agilent. > While Agilent isn't at the same level of quality that the old HP was > either, they're certainly a lot closer than the new HP. > If you consider the current world you'll say Agilent=Hewlett-Packard === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? posting-account=GT4frAoAAADMvAtJu2WIOkYTwgy0O29T 1.1.4322; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Mar 12, 6:17æpm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > Joel Koltner kirjoitti > >> I think everyone will agree that HP is no longer the high-end company it > >> once was. > > > It's a shame the calculator business went to HP rather than Agilent. > > While Agilent isn't at the same level of quality that the old HP was > > either, they're certainly a lot closer than the new HP. > > If you consider the current world > you'll say Agilent=Hewlett-Packard It's some kind of a trend. TI isn't the same kind of company it once was either. They used to design and sell world class innovative products at competitive prices and provide excellent service and documentation. Now they sell second rate nspires at high prices to school children that come with rather usless manuals. It's really sad. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > It's some kind of a trend. æTI isn't the same kind of company it once > was either. æThey used to design and sell world class innovative > products at competitive prices and provide excellent service and > documentation. æNow they sell second rate nspires at high prices to > school children that come with rather usless manuals. æIt's really > sad. There is a marked decline in build quality in TI calculators. A HW3 TI-89 Titanium has keys with a solid click whereas a newer HW4 TI-89 Titanium has mushy keys that sink under the slightest touch and offer no feedback at all. The new HW4 versions remind me of those $1 four- bangers you can get near the cash register. TI claims a speed boost in the HW4 models, but I would MUCH MUCH rather have the better keyboard. S.C. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? posting-account=GT4frAoAAADMvAtJu2WIOkYTwgy0O29T 1.1.4322; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > > > It's some kind of a trend. æTI isn't the same kind of company it once > > was either. æThey used to design and sell world class innovative > > products at competitive prices and provide excellent service and > > documentation. æNow they sell second rate nspires at high prices to > > school children that come with rather usless manuals. æIt's really > > sad. > > There is a marked decline in build quality in TI calculators. A HW3 > TI-89 Titanium has keys with a solid click whereas a newer HW4 TI-89 > Titanium has mushy keys that sink under the slightest touch and offer > no feedback at all. The new HW4 versions remind me of those $1 four- > bangers you can get near the cash register. > > TI claims a speed boost in the HW4 models, but I would MUCH MUCH > rather have the better keyboard. > > S.C. Yes, I to have noticed the decline in TI quality also. The nspire/ nspire cas is a real p.o.s. in my humble opinion. I believe that the release of the nspire/nspirecas represents a turning point for TI. They are no longer a good company to do business with nor do they have any new calculator products worth buying. I feel certain that a person is better off buying a used TI calculator on E-Bay than to buy a new one from TI and that says a lot about their quality, price and service. The Voyage calculator that I bought just a couple of years ago already has keyboard problems. The keys sometimes stick down and click up seconds to minutes later. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? Yes, Joe! The problem might be that current capitalism is not for the company (not to talk about customers) but for share holder to gain short-term profit In old movies these kind of swindlers/hustlers (stock market manipulators) went to jail for 30 years Today they are rewarded Especially if they are bankers then the whole world bents over and has to give them even more money as a reward for cheating and stealing VPN May God help us! Joe kirjoitti On Mar 12, 6:17 pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > Joel Koltner kirjoitti > viestiss.8a:vrhul.34196$UR4.1...@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...> John > >> I think everyone will agree that HP is no longer the high-end company > >> it > >> once was. > > > It's a shame the calculator business went to HP rather than Agilent. > > While Agilent isn't at the same level of quality that the old HP was > > either, they're certainly a lot closer than the new HP. > > If you consider the current world > you'll say Agilent=Hewlett-Packard It's some kind of a trend. TI isn't the same kind of company it once was either. They used to design and sell world class innovative products at competitive prices and provide excellent service and documentation. Now they sell second rate nspires at high prices to school children that come with rather usless manuals. It's really sad. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? <8vqul.99$II.90@uutiset.elisa.fi> posting-account=GT4frAoAAADMvAtJu2WIOkYTwgy0O29T 1.1.4322; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Mar 13, 3:23æam, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > Yes, Joe! > > The problem might be > that current capitalism is not for the company > (not to talk about customers) > but for share holder to gain short-term profit > > In old movies these kind of swindlers/hustlers > (stock market manipulators) > went to jail for 30 years > > Today they are rewarded > Especially if they are bankers > then the whole world bents over > and has to give them even more money > as a reward for cheating and stealing > > VPN > May God help us! > > Joe kirjoitti > On Mar 12, 6:17 pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > > > Joel Koltner kirjoitti > > viestiss.8a:vrhul.34196$UR4.1...@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...> John > > >> I think everyone will agree that HP is no longer the high-end company > > >> it > > >> once was. > > > > It's a shame the calculator business went to HP rather than Agilent. > > > While Agilent isn't at the same level of quality that the old HP was > > > either, they're certainly a lot closer than the new HP. > > > If you consider the current world > > you'll say Agilent=Hewlett-Packard > > It's some kind of a trend. æTI isn't the same kind of company it once > was either. æThey used to design and sell world class innovative > products at competitive prices and provide excellent service and > documentation. æNow they sell second rate nspires at high prices to > school children that come with rather usless manuals. æIt's really > sad. Yes, VPN, Capitalism has fallen into moral decay as company leaders have sold their sole to the devil by swindleing everyone including the customer. Companies used to serve the customer. Now they only serve the personal greed of their leaders. World famous U.S. companies such as Hp, TI, and GE along with many others are now dispicable icons of moral decay, and I say that as a U.S. citizen who feels helpless to do anything about it. The presidents and ceo's of these companies had better like it in hell because that is were they are going to be forever. That ultimately is their reward. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? posting-account=zYTuBQoAAAC_bXzGjGVT5rxv8bOnpefP rv:1.9.0.7) Gecko/2009021906 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > On Mar 13, 3:23æam, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > > > > > Yes, Joe! > > > The problem might be > > that current capitalism is not for the company > > (not to talk about customers) > > but for share holder to gain short-term profit > > > In old movies these kind of swindlers/hustlers > > (stock market manipulators) > > went to jail for 30 years > > > Today they are rewarded > > Especially if they are bankers > > then the whole world bents over > > and has to give them even more money > > as a reward for cheating and stealing > > > VPN > > May God help us! > > > Joe kirjoitti > > On Mar 12, 6:17 pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > > > > Joel Koltner kirjoitti > > > viestiss.8a:vrhul.34196$UR4.1...@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...> John > > > >> I think everyone will agree that HP is no longer the high-end company > > > >> it > > > >> once was. > > > > > It's a shame the calculator business went to HP rather than Agilent. > > > > While Agilent isn't at the same level of quality that the old HP was > > > > either, they're certainly a lot closer than the new HP. > > > > If you consider the current world > > > you'll say Agilent=Hewlett-Packard > > > It's some kind of a trend. æTI isn't the same kind of company it once > > was either. æThey used to design and sell world class innovative > > products at competitive prices and provide excellent service and > > documentation. æNow they sell second rate nspires at high prices to > > school children that come with rather usless manuals. æIt's really > > sad. > > Yes, VPN, Capitalism has fallen into moral decay as company leaders > have sold their sole to the devil by swindleing everyone including the > customer. æCompanies used to serve the customer. æNow they only serve > the personal greed of their leaders. æWorld famous U.S. companies such > as Hp, TI, and GE along with many others are now dispicable icons of > moral decay, and I say that as a U.S. citizen who feels helpless to do > anything about it. æThe presidents and ceo's of these companies had > better like it in hell because that is were they are going to be > forever. æThat ultimately is their reward. I believe that there are exceptions. E.g. Apple. They are profitable, and still create great products and have good customer service. IMHO of course. Apple is like the Ferrari statement above. === Subject: Re: HP ship is sinking like Titanic? John Crane X > I think the marketing types took the reins from the engineers. I recently > told someone at HP that I think the ones that innovate and lead are > usually not the ones that make the most money, but they usually make the > most history. It's a sacrifice you must be willing to take. It's more > of a leader/entrepeneur philosophy than an accounting or marketing one > more accustomed to just making more money. After all, Ferrari doesn't make > the most money selling cars, but they sure have some world class machines. > > Something really, really nasty happend to HP along the way. I hope they > recover. > > -John You mean you want REAL HP Way back... It's lost forever we are all serving the Money as a god All world is doom The Biblical end-times are near... Still..the US of America has the most believers in the world 30% in Finland that is only 10% I wish we could all pray in Jesus name === Subject: Adding Equations into Programms (UserRPL) posting-account=VWYfuAoAAAAFFgsxAFKBQoDsReSTRCIr CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hi All, i have the following code and i would like to add another equation into the programme, however i can't find any references in the 830-odd page manual on how to do this? here is my starter programme: -(dash) should be a forward arrow << Prog A { { L The Length of Something 0} {W The Width of Something} {H The Height of Something 0} } INFORM IF THEN OBJ- DROP - L W H 'L*W*H' -NUM Volume - TAG (i wold like to perform 3 to 5 more calculations in here, using L, W and H) ELSE ERROR MSGBOX END >> then as an output, i would like to see (stack) 2: Volume: 3 1: Perimeter: 4 I have the programme working for 1 equation. Kay === Subject: Re: Adding Equations into Programms (UserRPL) > here is my starter programme: > > << { > { L The Length of Something 0} > {W The Width of Something} > {H The Height of Something 0} > } INFORM > IF > THEN > OBJ- DROP - L W H 'L*W*H' -NUM Volume - TAG > > (i wold like to perform 3 to 5 more calculations in here, using L, W > and H) ... Starting from where the stack contains three values: -> L W H << 'L*W*H' EVAL Volume ->TAG 'next formula using L W H' EVAL next tag ->TAG @ Etc. >> >> @ End of original program [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Question About HP50g Keys? <92btl.1185$9v4.661@uutiset.elisa.fi> posting-account=_oCSzAoAAAB7yYuxA-qEbYywlmh1EFjt 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Mar 9, 10:00æam, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > > it's all the old-school whiners > > who caused the 49g+ keyboard disaster... > > ABSOLUTE RUBBISH! > * nope: people whined about rubber keys to be rubbish > so HP dumbest the most durable keyboard EVER > for the 49g+ keys...read & think, don't stink... You work for HP? Cause you really sound like someone trying to pass the blame... Sorry, but the blame for the bad 49g+ keyboards rest solely with HP. Personly I never had or use the 49g, so I have no personal experience with it. But it seems most did NOT like the 49g keys as well as they liked the hp48 keys. But regardless, the problem with the 49g+ keys was HP's fault. === Subject: StopWatch-C posting-account=57eBeAkAAABkNMhsZnDBzGQsstJRmvKD Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I have made a port (after over 15 years since the original release !) of the StopWatch-B program for the 48GX to the 49G. Details about StopWatch-B can be found at http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=2725 It is a little bit bigger than the original code (and most likely still contains some bugs) as I had to rip off some of the 48GX specific pointers and it may contain code that will never be called. Also the order of the code is slightly different than in the original code. I am looking for beta testers that are willing to test the StopWatch program as much as possible. If you are interested please drop me a mail at Software49G@gmx.de. Probably some code has to be added to make sure that ZINTs are correctly converted to %Reals. PSP+ and PALL are not working properly at the moment. They call PrintGrob and I do not know which flag settings are required for a correct print out. If compiled for the HP 48GX it works flawless. Please remember that the library runs only in Port0 (like the original one). Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: StopWatch-C posting-account=QSfVcQoAAADkgn5Et4hWcvOa13b-lJy1 Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I can do some testing for you. Need some help on improving my measuring methods of water flows. Daniel. === Subject: Issue with 50g upgrade process posting-account=dORsTgoAAADJG7-vx3j2NqZW8jP6zlDH AppleWebKit/528.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Safari/528.16,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hi Folks- I've taken the plunge and bought a HP-50g this week and I have been information in this usenet group! I have however stumbled upon a problem, that I haven't been able to find any references to on the usenet group, hpcalc.org and educalc.net. I'm trying to upgrade my 50g's ROM to 2.09 (build v92) from 2.08 (build v91). I'm unable to get the Upgrade / Self Test menu to appear. I have been following instructions that tell me to turn the calculator off and then press and hold the [+/-] key and press the reset button on the back of the calculator, then continue to hold the [+/-] button and the menu should appear. Unfortunately, though I have tried this procedure a number of times my 50g will only reboot after I release the [+/-] key (i.e. the graphic is displayed and then I'm shown the stack). Has anyone encountered this problem before or have any suggestions as to how I might be able to access the Upgrade / Self Test menu I would greatly appreciate the help! Joe === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Hi Folks- > > I've taken the plunge and bought a HP-50g this week and I have been > information in this usenet group! > > I have however stumbled upon a problem, that I haven't been able to > find any references to on the usenet group, hpcalc.org and > educalc.net. æI'm trying to upgrade my 50g's ROM to 2.09 (build v92) > from 2.08 (build v91). æI'm unable to get the Upgrade / Self Test menu > to appear. æI have been following instructions that tell me to turn > the calculator off and then press and hold the [+/-] key and press the > reset button on the back of the calculator, then continue to hold the > [+/-] button and the menu should appear. æUnfortunately, though I have > tried this procedure a number of times my 50g will only reboot after I > release the [+/-] key (i.e. the graphic is displayed and then I'm > shown the stack). > > Has anyone encountered this problem before or have any suggestions as > to how I might be able to access the Upgrade / Self Test menu I would > greatly appreciate the help! > > Joe Sounds like you're pressing the wrong keys. The guides mean to press the [+] and [-] keys (plus and minus binary operators) that are directly above the ENTER key, not the [+/-] (NEG) key. S.C. === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process Yes, press and hold both of the arithmetic keys [+] and [-] If it seems rather uncomfortable to manage to keep holding these keys while finding a paper clip to insert into the reset hole, what I do instead is remove the battery cover, hold the calc battery side up, with two fingers holding the [+] and [-] keys on the underside, then just slightly pull out and then push back any AAA battery cell with the free hand. Wait a few seconds more, then release the [+] and [-] keys. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process > >Yes, press and hold both of the arithmetic keys [+] and [-] > >If it seems rather uncomfortable to manage to keep holding >these keys while finding a paper clip to insert into the reset hole, >what I do instead is remove the battery cover, >hold the calc battery side up, with two fingers >holding the [+] and [-] keys on the underside, >then just slightly pull out and then push back >any AAA battery cell with the free hand. > >Wait a few seconds more, then release the [+] and [-] keys. > >[r->] [OFF] Fantastic. Don't forget that to complete this procedure you must touch your let ear with fingers of your right palm. calculators - the victory of engineering over common sense. Pretty thick file A.L. === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process >> Wait a few seconds more, then release the [+] and [-] keys. > Fantastic. Don't forget that to complete this procedure > you must touch your let ear with fingers of your right palm. > calculators - the victory of engineering over common sense. I think you can get a modification so that just by pressing [+] and [-], perhaps not even both at the same time, your ROM can be erased as easily as finding an integral. Even my child lock for a household cabinet, as well as another child-safe box, requires pressing four things at the same time, two on the front and two on the side -- yet another apparent engineering blunder, at least from the child's perspective. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process John H Meyers kirjoitti viestiss.8a:op.uqsbthhnnn735j@miu.edu... X > yet another apparent engineering blunder, > at least from the child's perspective. > :-D === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process A.L. kirjoitti viestiss.8a:a7anr4t6tfgb9g84s9tdvsp2g3sukc49fp@4ax.com... > >> >>Yes, press and hold both of the arithmetic keys [+] and [-] >> >>If it seems rather uncomfortable to manage to keep holding >>these keys while finding a paper clip to insert into the reset hole, >>what I do instead is remove the battery cover, >>hold the calc battery side up, with two fingers >>holding the [+] and [-] keys on the underside, >>then just slightly pull out and then push back >>any AAA battery cell with the free hand. >> >>Wait a few seconds more, then release the [+] and [-] keys. >> >>[r->] [OFF] > > Fantastic. Don't forget that to complete this procedure you must touch > your let ear with fingers of your right palm. > > calculators - the victory of engineering over common sense. Pretty > thick file > > A.L. You should not get there by accident but since you are so wonderful you can easily mod your calc to fix this and perhaps - just maybe - just because you are so great send this modded calc to HP calc division so that hp 50g+ will be as you want it Naturally, since you are the miracle-man your letter is so persuading that it changes the minds of the narkedroids and bean-counters Good thing that you exist, a True Hero(TM) === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process posting-account=dORsTgoAAADJG7-vx3j2NqZW8jP6zlDH AppleWebKit/528.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Safari/528.16,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > Yes, press and hold both of the arithmetic keys [+] and [-] > > If it seems rather uncomfortable to manage to keep holding > these keys while finding a paper clip to insert into the reset hole, > what I do instead is remove the battery cover, > hold the calc battery side up, with two fingers > holding the [+] and [-] keys on the underside, > then just slightly pull out and then push back > any AAA battery cell with the free hand. > > Wait a few seconds more, then release the [+] and [-] keys. > > [r->] [OFF] Joe === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process Glad to see you already did your upgrade. For future reference, it turns out that neither a paper clip nor removing a battery is needed. To start a ROM update: Press ON and D together, release, wait for menu. Now the tricky part: Press ON and C together, but only _momentarily_ then _immediately_ press both [+] and [-] and _hold_ those for three seconds, then release. Menu appears: 1.UPDATE CODE 2.SELFTEST If you don't actually want to update ROM, choosing 2 gets you back to where you were after ON and D, after which ON and C (followed by nothing else) restarts normally. If the calculator restarts instead of showing the ROM update menu, start over, and in the tricky part, be sure to press ON and C as briefly as possible, then [+] and [-] as quickly as possible after releasing ON and C, and be sure to keep holding [+] and [-] for at least three seconds. D.8ej.88 vu all over again: [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b3) Gecko/20090305 Firefox/3.1b3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Glad to see you already did your upgrade. > > For future reference, it turns out that > neither a paper clip nor removing a battery is needed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QttezbbytsM TW === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QttezbbytsM The ROM versions displayed in that upgrade are, well, interesting. Eric Rechlin === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process >> For future reference, it turns out that >> neither a paper clip nor removing a battery is needed. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QttezbbytsM Interesting very recent video (text clear, pix a bit fuzzy). What I newly noticed in my recent attempts is that holding ON+C a bit too long will produce failure to get the update menu, just as will taking too long between releasing ON+C and pressing [+] and [-] so one should emphasize both points. I think this child wants a calculator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKt5FCHdl84 Which works much better, as you have seen: http://i40.tinypic.com/2nkiaeh.jpg [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Issue with 50g upgrade process posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE rv:1.9.1b3) Gecko/20090305 Firefox/3.1b3,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Interesting very recent video (text clear, pix a bit fuzzy). Well I didn't have any good video editor with me at the time. . . stupid desktop recorder also was crap. The web cam I used is a good one that has given me good results before. I plan to fix it when I get a bit of time. > I think this child wants a calculator:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKt5FCHdl84 > > Which works much better, as you have seen:http://i40.tinypic.com/2nkiaeh.jpg You mean like this: http://timandkatie.com/wp-content/gallery/phonecalc/P1040006.jpg (she thinks it is a phone) http://timandkatie.com/wp-content/gallery/huge_group/P1020920.JPG http://timandkatie.com/wp-content/gallery/kalyn_2_18_2008/IMGP2379.JPG Always start them young! :-) TW === Subject: Re: HP UserEdit 5...Direction!! posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Hi All, > > I have written a small programme that is supposed to calculate > prestressing forces, however i'm struggling every step of the way. > > does anyone know of a good reference manual for HP User Edit 5 or a > fairly basic manual with plenty of worked exmples? > > My main aim is to get 5-10 seperate values into the prog, do 5 or 6 > computations with the values, and then present them- it can't be too > hard!! > > I may need to draw a graph later on, which would be a scatter graph. > > Does anybody have any experience with this or could point me in the > right direction? > > > Kay Hello Kay, I just downloaded that program last week but haven't had the chance to play with it yet. Being a civil engineer, you might want to check out the website of Gilberto E. Urroz, Ph.D., P.E. at http://www.neng.usu.edu/cee/faculty/gurro/ . If you want to input 5-10 seperate values into your program you might try using the INFORM command. Which model calculator are you using? Mark === Subject: INFORM behavior on HP49/50 Help me with this one: << Title { { X 0. } } { } { } { } INFORM >> Purpose: accept a real number (object type 0) Result: Good << Title { { X 28. } } { } { } { } INFORM >> Purpose: accept an integer (object type 28) Result: INFORM Error: Bad Argument Value In addition, if I run the first program in Exact mode and attempt to type an integer (no decimal point), it is immediately changed into a real number (with decimal point), so the first program is not usable for accepting integers. How about this one: << Title { { X } } { } { } { } INFORM >> Purpose: accept anything Why yes, now I can type an integer and it remains an integer, but I can not tell INFORM that I _expect_ an integer! (which means that I can not use the type checking normally provided by INFORM, and have to add more type checking to my program) It would seem as if original INFORM (from HP48G[X]) was modified to recognize integer input, and convert it to real if only real is acceptable (which seems clever, since many numeric functions accept and automatically convert integers to reals), but not modified to understand an integer as a valid separate type to expect and check. How about this: << Title { { X 3. } } { } { } { } INFORM >> Purpose: accept a real array (object type 3) Result: [ 1 2 ] returns the _symbolic_ array [ 1 2 ] Result: [ 'X' 'Y' ] is also accepted, although 'X' is not. However: << Title { { X 29. } } { } { } { } INFORM >> Purpose: accept a symbolic array (object type 29) Result: INFORM Error: Bad Argument Value So, HP49/50 INFORM accepts some new object types as data, as if they were the older object types (a bit too liberally in the type 3 case, where even completely non-numeric input is accepted), but it won't accept new object type codes at all, for validating inputs. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: INFORM behavior on HP49/50 John H Meyers kirjoitti viestiss.8a:op.uqrkr1c4nn735j@miu.edu... > Help me with this one: X > but I can not tell INFORM that I _expect_ an integer! X > So, HP49/50 INFORM accepts some new object types as data, > as if they were the older object types (a bit too liberally in the > type 3 case, where even completely non-numeric input is accepted), > but it won't accept new object type codes at all, for validating inputs. I noticed this years ago and it really turns me > [r->] [OFF] === Subject: INLIST, INMENU, and INPROMPT There are alternatives to good old INFORM or INPUT, such as INLIST, INMENU, and INPROMPT INLIST is an INFORM replacement, having all these same features: o Editing (including a CALC mode for stack calculations) o Optional reset values o Optional object type restriction But INLIST is not limited to what can be crammed into one small form, because its form is open-ended and *scrolls* vertically. The INLIST arguments are similar to INFORM: Title { prompts } { initial values } -OR- Title { prompts } { reset values } { initial values } Note: Lists other than prompts may be empty or shorter than the prompts list. Each prompt in the list of prompts is: o Any string (or any word) -OR- o A list: { Prompt type1 type2 .. } for object type restriction How to enter data using INLIST: Highlight any item; press OK or ENTER to edit. Individual value reset is invoked by a blank edit area (press ON once if not yet blank). Individual value CALC mode is invoked by typing only an equal command [=] into the edit area (left-shifted zero on 48G, right-shifted W on 49G/50G); return from CALC mode via CONT (left-shifted ON). Also use CALC mode to see the list of valid object TYPES. Reset All is invoked by an item at the very end of the form. provides the normal exit from INLIST; ON or Cancel (from the form level) aborts. Level | Stack at normal exit: | Stack after abort: 2: { final values } | 1: 1. | 0. The use of a full-screen CHOOSE program can improve INLIST, by displaying a full line for each item, and by using the full height of the screen. Full-screen CHOOSE for any HP48G/49G/50G series calculator: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=6431 (ROLDXJ, contains binaries) A program INFORML is also provided below, which accepts the exact same five arguments as INFORM, but calls INLIST instead, so that you may merely change INFORM to INFORML in your existing programs that use INFORM. A program INLISTF is also provided below, which accepts the fewer arguments needed by INLIST, but calls INFORM instead, so that you may merely change INLIST to INLISTF in existing programs that use INLIST. If you require all form fields to be filled in, to avoid any skipped fields returning NOVAL as their value, programs INLISTN and INFORMN are also provided, which accept the identical arguments, but automatically repeat INLIST or INFORM until the results are free of any NOVAL. --- A much simpler way to invite input is provided by INMENU, which eliminates the complex form (and complex programming), in favor of a simple menu, where your menu labels indicate the variables you expect, and a single touch of a menu key stores a value into its respective variable, where it can not only be re-used in as many formulas as desired, but remains stored, so that repeated invocations do not require re-entry of previously saved values. The most trivial sort of input is provided by INPROMPT, to which you supply one message and accept one value at a time. --- @ Sample program for INPROMPT: << Enter X INPROMPT X ->TAG Enter Y INPROMPT Y ->TAG >> 'tinp' @ INPROMPT (all HP48/49/50) << 10. CHR + then press menu key + @ optional hint { { OK << 0. MENU CONT >> } { (AN(L << 0. MENU KILL >> } } TMENU PROMPT >> 'INPROMPT' STO @ --- @ Sample program for INMENU: << Value [menu key] { X Y } INMENU X X ->TAG Y Y ->TAG 'X+Y' EVAL X+Y ->TAG 'X*Y' EVAL X*Y ->TAG >> 'tinm' @ INMENU (48G/49G/50G) store input to variables instead of stack @ Args: Title { labels } Nothing returned on stack. @ One touch to store, DONE returns, LeftShift DONE aborts, @ RightShift recalls, RightShift CursorDown reviews values. @ Real numbers stored into unit objects preserve the units! << { @ the next line is an optional tweak for up to 5 variables { SHOW << #A300Eh RCLF SIZE 3. < 2. * + LIBEVAL >> } { DONE { << 0. MENU CONT >> << 0. MENU KILL >> } } } + TMENU RCLF SIZE 3. > #25EFFh #151A6h IFTE SYSEVAL PROMPT >> 'INMENU' STO @ Caution: First back up memory! Incorrect SYSEVALs are harmful! @ Also note the difference between LIBEVAL and SYSEVAL @ --- @ Test program for INLIST[N]: << Test INLIST { { Set VX to 6. } { Any Number 0. 28. } Required field } { X 123 } DUP INLIST >> 'tinl' @ or INLISTN to avoid NOVAL @ Note that INFORM would throw an error on type code 28 @ Complete INLIST (in UserRPL) for HP48G/49G/50G << 3. PICK TYPE 2. == { { } SWAP } IFT @ Omitted resets? 3. PICK 1. << DROP NOVAL >> DOSUBS @ Pad values lists 1. DUP2 6. ROLL REPL 4. ROLLD ROT REPL @ To match prompts 0. RCLF { GET DUP TYPE 2. == { 34. CHR SWAP OVER + + } p. b. a. n. f. c. m. << -55. SF 64. STWS STD DO IF h. p. @ Build a new CHOOSE list (showing current values): 1. << { } + 1. GET = + a. NSUB c. EVAL + NSUB 2. ->LIST >> DOSUBS { [Reset All] } + 'n.' INCR @ Exit or reset all if either was selected: CHOOSE THEN DUP 'n.' STO IF TYPE THEN IF n. POS THEN b. 'a.' STO 0. DUP 'n.' STO ELSE a. 1. 1. END ELSE @ Get the prompt and current value for INPUT (editor): p. n. GET { } + 1. GET ->STR a. n. c. EVAL 28. MENU IFERR INPUT { SWAP + STR-> DUP SIZE 1. > { DROP 7. DOERR } @ Reset if null input, halt for CALC if equal command: IFT LIST-> NOT { b. n. GET } IFT { = } OVER POS { DROP DEPTH ->LIST a. n. GET RCLF -> s. v. g. << p. n. GET { } + TAIL DUP SIZE NOT { { ALL } + } IFT Types ->TAG f. STOF v. HALT g. STOF DEPTH NOT { v. } IFT DEPTH ROLLD DEPTH 1. - DROPN s. LIST-> DROP DEPTH ROLL >> } IFT @ Object type restrictions: { 0. ADD OVER TYPE POS NOT { DROP 7. DOERR } IFT } { DROP } IFTE } IFT @ Okay @ 'a.' n. ROT PUT THEN ERRN B->R { Invalid object or type MSGBOX } IFT 'n.' DECR DROP END m. TMENU 0. END ELSE 0. 1. END UNTIL END f. STOF >> >> 'INLIST' STO @ Auxiliary programs: @ Loop on INLIST until no undefined value (NOVAL) in results @ [takes the same args as INLIST] << 3. PICK TYPE 2. == { { } SWAP } IFT 4. ROLLD -> t. p. b. << 1. DO DROP t. p. b. 4. ROLL INLIST DUP DUP { DROP OVER NOVAL POS } IFT UNTIL NOT END >> >> 'INLISTN' STO @ Loop on INFORM until no undefined value (NOVAL) in results @ [takes the same args as INFORM] << 5. ROLLD -> t. p. f. b. << 1. DO DROP t. p. f. b. 5. ROLL INFORM DUP DUP { DROP OVER NOVAL POS } IFT UNTIL NOT END >> >> 'INFORMN' STO @ This takes args for INFORM, but calls INLIST instead << ROT DROP ROT 1. << { } + DUP SIZE { DUP HEAD SWAP TAIL TAIL + } { DROP } IFTE >> DOSUBS ROT ROT INLIST >> 'INFORML' STO @ This takes args for INLIST, but calls INFORM instead << 3. PICK TYPE 2. == { { } SWAP } IFT ROT 1. << { } + DUP HEAD + { } + SWAP TAIL + >> DOSUBS DUP SIZE DUP 4. MIN / CEIL 4. ROLL 4. ROLL INFORM >> 'INLISTF' STO @ [This is the end] === Subject: Re: Transfer of HP48GX programs to HP 50g posting-account=T6_JoAoAAAD5X1NpIb7ZcQrmFCd8Otqa Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > If IR transfer works at all, use Kermit in ascii mode only, > and set HP50G to Approximate mode (to receive integer-valued reals ... Is it possible transfer data from 48GX to 50g using IR port? How? I tried to do this in different ways but no succeed. Then search in the intert ... I read on the internet that the protocols used in the two calculators (48gx = UART & 50 = IrDA) are incompatible. Valfisio. === Subject: Re: Transfer of HP48GX programs to HP 50g Valfisio kirjoitti > >> If IR transfer works at all, use Kermit in ascii mode only, >> and set HP50G to Approximate mode (to receive integer-valued reals ... > > Is it possible transfer data from 48GX to 50g using IR port? > How? > I tried to do this in different ways but no succeed. > > Then search in the intert ... > > I read on the internet that the protocols used in the two calculators > (48gx = UART & 50 = IrDA) are incompatible. > > Valfisio. IR does not work between the two You have to use a PC and transfer UserRPL in ASCII to/from and 49-series (48GII, 49G, 49g+, 50g) should be in Approx mode === Subject: Another blog, L'Gaak dice: posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) This is another blog in the world, written by Gustavo Portales. Labels: HP49G, HP50G, TIPS, and more... http://LGaak.blogspot.com/ Suggestions and comments are welcome! - Gaak - === Subject: symbolical solution of linear equation system *not* in matrix form? posting-account=8aDbxgoAAACntO_SyPlnJL1FvsKVQEfd Gecko/2009012700 SUSE/3.0.6-0.1.2 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I wonder how I can solve an equation system symbolically? I know there is RREF, but the problem is that the equations I have are rather complicated, so that I'd need to sort out the coefficients first, manually: X*a1 + (X-Y)*b1 a2*X - b2*Y = c2 How can I solve this wrt X,Y (this is just a simple example, my actual problem is much more complicated, so that manually collecting the coefficients would take a long time... === Subject: Re: symbolical solution of linear equation system *not* in matrix form? > > I wonder how I can solve an equation system symbolically? I know there > is RREF, but the problem is that the equations I have are rather > complicated, so that I'd need to sort out the coefficients first, > manually: > > X*a1 + (X-Y)*b1 Equals c1, I assume? > a2*X - b2*Y = c2 > > How can I solve this wrt X,Y (this is just a simple example, my actual > problem is much more complicated, so that manually collecting the > coefficients would take a long time... The SOLVE command can solve linear and polynomial systems. [ 'X*A1+(X-Y)*B1=C1' 'A2*C-B2*Y=C2' ] ['X' 'Y'] SOLVE === Subject: Re: symbolical solution of linear equation system *not* in matrix form? <86eiwytyma.fsf@vulcan.lan> posting-account=itRlSAoAAADIJvOzSGM8mjsK7gvlk1wg Gecko/20080201 (CK-PC-WELT) Firefox/2.0.0.12,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > The SOLVE command can solve linear and polynomial systems. > > [ 'X*A1+(X-Y)*B1=C1' 'A2*C-B2*Y=C2' ] ['X' 'Y'] SOLVE Another option is to isolate one unknown variable in one equation by means of ISOL and then to eliminate this variable in another equation by SUBST. You can do this process several times for more than two equations. === Subject: Re: symbolical solution of linear equation system *not* in matrix form? posting-account=8aDbxgoAAACntO_SyPlnJL1FvsKVQEfd Gecko/2009012700 SUSE/3.0.6-0.1.2 Firefox/3.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I forgot to mention: I am using both the HP49G and the HP49G+ (the latter preferably...) === Subject: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=ky6NnQoAAAAl8HjjF10EUMKbzXiIKhTR Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello all, Today I visited hpcalc.org and noticed ROM 2.14 was just added, so of course I had to download it and install it. The update itself went smoothly, but then when I tried to install EqnData.lib the problem appeared. The calculator just hung there for a really long time so I reset it. The EqnLib.lib (~11KB) worked just fine so I tried the EqnData.lib (~58KB) again, same problem again, then I noticed that the File Manager now showed only 7KB available in Port 2, and some of my libraries that I had installed in Port 2 where gone. Weird, then further all of a sudden when pressing the ON key, the calculator would warmstart, this eventually went away, no idea what the deal was there. Anyways so I PURGEd extable from Port 2 to free some space to test further. I then tried to install another library, ~47KB in size, same procedure as always, RCL library to stack, put 2. on stack, press STO, well now the entire screen flickered and the hourglass was on, this time I just put it aside and let it flicker, eventually it stopped, now I checked and the file manager shows 0KB available for Port 2, and NO ENTRIES. So at this point it appears to me that when installing larger libraries, something goes very wrong, as the smaller EqnLib.lib installed just fine. Ok, that was on my backup 49g+, should have known to stop there but curiosity prevailed and I got out the 50g. Surprise surprise, same problem, however with a new twist, during a trial STO to port 2, the Display Area 2 and 3 pixels turned on (black) while Display Area 1 pixels were off. After resetting the calculator, nothing changes, partially black screen is all I see. So now I have a 49g+ with a missing Port 2, and a 50g with a black screen when I turn it on. PINIT does nothing, the same library installs fine to Port 1, what is going on? Anyone else experience the same problem? I suggest DO NOT INSTALL ROM 2.14, but maybe its just my 2 calculators out of all of them. Also when pressing any 2 keys on the 49g+ simultaneously the calculator just warmstarts now, so I have not been able to revert to ROM 2.09 but will keep trying. Jacob === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 Le dimanche 15 mars 2009, Jacob Wall avait .8ecrit : > Today I visited hpcalc.org and noticed ROM 2.14 was just added Great news. My HP50 is only 2.09. But I don't feel upgrading it if I don't know what the improvements are. I wish there were a changelog file in the .zip archive... === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Today I visited hpcalc.org and noticed ROM 2.14 was just added, so of > course I had to download it and install it. æThe update itself went > smoothly, but then when I tried to install EqnData.lib the problem > appeared. æThe calculator just hung there for a really long time so I > reset it. æThe EqnLib.lib (~11KB) worked just fine so I tried the > EqnData.lib (~58KB) again, same problem again, then I noticed that the > File Manager now showed only 7KB available in Port 2, and some of my > libraries that I had installed in Port 2 where gone. æWeird, then > further all of a sudden when pressing the ON key, the calculator would > warmstart, this eventually went away, no idea what the deal was > there. Strange. It works perfectly on my systems here (3 at least so far). What rom were you running before the upgrade? I have seen ROM updates go strange before. I fixed it by installing one of those 2MB roms that wipes all of port 2 clean. Try using the 2MB -u rom in the zip file here: ftp://ftp-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/xcas/hpcas/hp49g.zip TW === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 Did you perform the upgrade from the SD card or the PC. Dale R > Hello all, > > Today I visited hpcalc.org and noticed ROM 2.14 was just added, so of > course I had to download it and install it. The update itself went > smoothly, but then when I tried to install EqnData.lib the problem > appeared. The calculator just hung there for a really long time so I > reset it. The EqnLib.lib (~11KB) worked just fine so I tried the > EqnData.lib (~58KB) again, same problem again, then I noticed that the > File Manager now showed only 7KB available in Port 2, and some of my > libraries that I had installed in Port 2 where gone. Weird, then > further all of a sudden when pressing the ON key, the calculator would > warmstart, this eventually went away, no idea what the deal was > there. > > Anyways so I PURGEd extable from Port 2 to free some space to test > further. I then tried to install another library, ~47KB in size, same > procedure as always, RCL library to stack, put 2. on stack, press STO, > well now the entire screen flickered and the hourglass was on, this > time I just put it aside and let it flicker, eventually it stopped, > now I checked and the file manager shows 0KB available for Port 2, and > NO ENTRIES. So at this point it appears to me that when installing > larger libraries, something goes very wrong, as the smaller EqnLib.lib > installed just fine. > > Ok, that was on my backup 49g+, should have known to stop there but > curiosity prevailed and I got out the 50g. Surprise surprise, same > problem, however with a new twist, during a trial STO to port 2, the > Display Area 2 and 3 pixels turned on (black) while Display Area 1 > pixels were off. After resetting the calculator, nothing changes, > partially black screen is all I see. > > So now I have a 49g+ with a missing Port 2, and a 50g with a black > screen when I turn it on. > > PINIT does nothing, the same library installs fine to Port 1, what is > going on? > > Anyone else experience the same problem? I suggest DO NOT INSTALL ROM > 2.14, but maybe its just my 2 calculators out of all of them. > > Also when pressing any 2 keys on the 49g+ simultaneously the > calculator just warmstarts now, so I have not been able to revert to > ROM 2.09 but will keep trying. > > Jacob === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=ky6NnQoAAAAl8HjjF10EUMKbzXiIKhTR Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Dale, I used the SD card. Tim, good to hear it's working for you, very bizarre that it messed up both of my calculators. I upgraded from ROM 2.09, on both Jacob === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 Jacob Wall kirjoitti > Dale, I used the SD card. > > Tim, good to hear it's working for you, very bizarre that it messed up > both of my calculators. I upgraded from ROM 2.09, on both > > Jacob After wipe-out do you dare to try again Since you are already experimenting just continue, please We will all benefit I may want to wait for HPGCC 3.0 support ROM... === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=ky6NnQoAAAAl8HjjF10EUMKbzXiIKhTR Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) get the 49g+ to not warmstart when I press 2 keys simultaneously, which is sort of a requirement for the upgrade ( + and - ). So after fixing the 50g with the -u ROM, I then installed ROM 2.14 again. Of course the problem I'm having is storing libraries in Port 2, so instead I tried using the File Manager, browsing the SD, locating the library, and copying it directly to Port 2. Amazingly enough it worked just as expected, however when I do the RCL library from SD, 2. STO, the calculator just hangs indefinitely, ON+C, results in Try To Recover Memory? screen. Has STO been revised? Tim, are you able to put a library on the Stack, then performing 2. STO on the calculators you have upgraded? Also from my trials it appears that STO only fails with larger libraries, EqnLib.lib at 11308 my ~47KB library. Jacob === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Tim, are you able to put a library on the Stack, then performing 2. > STO on the calculators you have upgraded? Also from my trials it > appears that STO only fails with larger libraries, EqnLib.lib at 11308 > my ~47KB library. That works fine here. My testing consists of installing and running the surveying software which is about as stressful a test there is, being how it uses calls from all sides of the system and also HPGCC stuff. Nothing is funny on what I've seen. TW === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=ky6NnQoAAAAl8HjjF10EUMKbzXiIKhTR Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > Tim, are you able to put a library on the Stack, then performing 2. > > STO on the calculators you have upgraded? æAlso from my trials it > > appears that STO only fails with larger libraries, EqnLib.lib at 11308 > > my ~47KB library. > > That works fine here. My testing consists of installing and running > the surveying software which is about as stressful a test there is, > being how it uses calls from all sides of the system and also HPGCC > stuff. Nothing is funny on what I've seen. > > TW Odd, well as I stated earlier when running the << :2:226. PURGE :3:EQNLIB.LIB RCL 2. STO >> from the SD everything works fine, just not when running it from on the calculator. Tim, I would imagine you have everything streamlined with your installations, and are not entering each time 2. STO to store a library to Port 2. Have you or anyone else tried installing the new EqnLib.lib file using the method I was using? Would like a confirmation as to whether the issue is on all calculators, or only on some, or if there's something specific that triggers it. After some more trials I decided to press ON+C after what I thought was roughly the right time that it should take to perform the job, and well, the library had installed correctly, but when I don't interrupt, the hourglass remains on and something is happening that eventually wipes out or corrupts Port 2 completely. I know what triggers the problem on my calculators and I now have both my 49g+ and 50g back to the state they were in before this oddity, although I did keep ROM 2.14 on both calculators for now anyways, I just have to remember not to do the 2. STO thing. Jacob === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > with your installations, and are not entering each time 2. STO to > store a library to Port 2. æHave you or anyone else tried installing > the new EqnLib.lib file using the method I was using? Ok. I did get it to hang. The program to install it works just fine for me whether run from the SD card or in the calculator, but a manual STO on the stack does seem to hang. However, only on one of my units (the empty one). The others that have about 500kb in port 2 had no problem. Strange. TW === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=ky6NnQoAAAAl8HjjF10EUMKbzXiIKhTR Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > with your installations, and are not entering each time 2. STO to > > store a library to Port 2. æHave you or anyone else tried installing > > the new EqnLib.lib file using the method I was using? > > Ok. I did get it to hang. The program to install it works just fine > for me whether run from the SD card or in the calculator, but a manual > STO on the stack does seem to hang. However, only on one of my units > (the empty one). The others that have about 500kb in port 2 had no > problem. æStrange. > > TW Hey, I believe I have found the problem. I completely wiped out my 49G +, factory settings, except RPN mode set and the 2. STO worked!!!! So I went down the list of flags, matching it to my 50g, and the problem seems to be dependent on Flag 40 Show Clock, If flag 40 is set, my calculators hang everytime, however when I clear flag 40, no problems. Weird. Jacob === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Hey, I believe I have found the problem. æI completely wiped out my 49G > +, factory settings, except RPN mode set and the 2. STO worked!!!! My clock was off all the time. :-( TW === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) It might be worth also double checking the small font selection flags in various combination with normal numbers, complex numbers, #based- numbers, symbols/characters, exact rational results, and textbook equations on the stack; as I don't recall the odd results I'm now seeing. Normal numbers now seems to be tied to checking EqW:small_stack_disp while others like #based-numbers, and char/ symbols seem to be tied to stack:small? === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 Nice problem solving! So I'll wait for the next ROM to be released where this bug is fixed It should be easy to locate now that you have found that flag -40 is involved VPN PS: Since your comments are always so perfect you should be a beta-tester => one more pair of eyes to find those nasty bugs that creep in... Jacob Wall kirjoitti > > with your installations, and are not entering each time 2. STO to > > store a library to Port 2. Have you or anyone else tried installing > > the new EqnLib.lib file using the method I was using? > > Ok. I did get it to hang. The program to install it works just fine > for me whether run from the SD card or in the calculator, but a manual > STO on the stack does seem to hang. However, only on one of my units > (the empty one). The others that have about 500kb in port 2 had no > problem. Strange. > > TW Hey, I believe I have found the problem. I completely wiped out my 49G +, factory settings, except RPN mode set and the 2. STO worked!!!! So I went down the list of flags, matching it to my 50g, and the problem seems to be dependent on Flag 40 Show Clock, If flag 40 is set, my calculators hang everytime, however when I clear flag 40, no problems. Weird. Jacob === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 Jacob Wall kirjoitti > get the 49g+ to not warmstart when I press 2 keys simultaneously, > which is sort of a requirement for the upgrade ( + and - ). > > So after fixing the 50g with the -u ROM, I then installed ROM 2.14 > again. Of course the problem I'm having is storing libraries in Port > 2, so instead I tried using the File Manager, browsing the SD, > locating the library, and copying it directly to Port 2. Amazingly > enough it worked just as expected, however when I do the RCL library > from SD, 2. STO, the calculator just hangs indefinitely, ON+C, results > in Try To Recover Memory? screen. Has STO been revised? X ##/&(&/ó%ó&%ó seems to be a buggy release unless others test it will dissimilar experience Where are all the Beta-testers? I used to be one...but no one asked me now ??? === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 <_0gvl.1504$II.603@uutiset.elisa.fi> posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Where are all the Beta-testers? > I used to be one...but no one asked me now ??? Perhaps its comments like that, and general randomness, that gets one disqualified? TW === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 kirjoitti >> Where are all the Beta-testers? >> I used to be one...but no one asked me now ??? > > Perhaps its comments like that, and general randomness, that gets one > disqualified? > > TW Comments like what? While you care to write, please also educate: Please analyze what is wrong with my comment above. ------------------------------ What general randomness? Writing to a newsgroup differs from testing. I think your business depends on understanding the difference. My claim is that style of writing in a newsgroup does not necessarily reflect testing skills If my writing annoys some people, so do other writings also annoy people (including me) === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 <_0gvl.1504$II.603@uutiset.elisa.fi> Le lundi 16 mars 2009, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen avait .8ecrit : > seems to be a buggy release > unless others test it will dissimilar experience I successfully installed 2.14 on my hp50g. I found a 13. StreamSmart entry in the APPS menu... === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 <_0gvl.1504$II.603@uutiset.elisa.fi> posting-account=ky6NnQoAAAAl8HjjF10EUMKbzXiIKhTR Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Further testing, if I EVAL a program directly on the SD card that does essentially the same thing as what I'm doing on the calculator, it works. For example in UserRPL: << :2:226. PURGE :3:EQNLIB.LIB RCL 2. STO >> This works for me when I run it from the SD, but not if it's stored on the calculator. === Subject: Re: Bug in ROM 2.14 regarding Port 2 posting-account=ky6NnQoAAAAl8HjjF10EUMKbzXiIKhTR Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Update, I was able to install ROM 2.09 on the 50g with the black screen, everything works again regarding Port 2, however there's only 196KB available, where previously I had about 550KB or something like that. === Subject: New ROM 2.14 Hi folks, As someone else posted, there is a 2.14 HP49G+/HP50G ROM now available on www.hpcalc.org. Does anybody know what is new in this release? It doesn't seem to include a changelog. === Subject: Re: New ROM 2.14 posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Hi folks, > > As someone else posted, there is a 2.14 HP49G+/HP50G ROM now available > onwww.hpcalc.org. > > Does anybody know what is new in this release? æIt doesn't seem to > include a changelog. Report testing (HP50g ROM2.14) .............................. GEO: This command is unavailable, so, this ROM isn't based on 2.10-7 VER: This command returns HP49 CAS by Parisse, Heiskanen & Fietcher 2.20060919 VERSION: This command returns Version HP50-C Revision 2.14 Copyright HP 2009 ROMUPLOAD: This command is available and locked for ARM-based machines, so, this new ROM is available for HP49G too? - Gaak - === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Testing report: HP50g ROM2.14 ----------------------------- +PHOTO CHRIS error CYRIL error GERAL error JYA error MARK error RAY error GROUP error TANYA error VGER error +INTER ON+ ok ON- ok ONAF ok ON9 ok ONC ok OND ok ONE ok ONF ok ONR ok ONS ok HPMAD ok MINEB ok +APPS MEMBR error NOSYS 49G - Gaak - === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > ? CHRIS ? ?error > ? CYRIL ? ?error > ? GERAL ? ?error > ? JYA ? ? ?error > ? MARK ? ? error > ? RAY ? ? ?error > ? GROUP ? ?error > ? TANYA ? ?error > ? VGER ? ? error In which part of the ROM are these located? Are they in the same bank/ location? If so, what is there now? TW === Subject: Re: TopSecret program [49 series] posting-account=HQcyKwkAAAAfyVM-3k2cuaNBENqZAwPy Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > æ CHRIS æ æerror > > æ CYRIL æ æerror > > æ GERAL æ æerror > > æ JYA æ æ æerror > > æ MARK æ æ error > > æ RAY æ æ æerror > > æ GROUP æ æerror > > æ TANYA æ æerror > > æ VGER æ æ error > > In which part of the ROM are these located? Are they in the same bank/ > location? If so, what is there now? > > TW Based on my recent post: ROMUPLOAD: This command is available and locked for ARM-based machines, so, this new ROM is available for HP49G too.. If so, the pictures still exist. Searching... - Gaak - === Subject: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Being encouraged that someone(s) now appears to be officially working on improving the 50g's firmware, judging from the newly posted 2.14 ROM on HPCalc.org (which is great news, thank you); I just wanted to post a few thoughts on potential improvements to it's interface behavior, hopefully helpful to all users, especially new ones (feedback/criticism welcome): - It would be nice if it weren't necessary to set/switch calc modes to specific settings just to get the results one would normally expect (as modes such as exact/approx, real/complex, etc. should be merely treated as being the preferred form of calculation/results, but not absolutely required to perform a specified calculation). Thereby more specifically: exact/real: preserve exact portion of result, otherwise prefer real. exact/comp: preserve exact portion of result, otherwise prefer comp. approx/real: exact only if whole result is exact, otherwise prefer real. approx/comp: exact only if whole result is exact, otherwise prefer comp. prefer real: complex results are converted to reals if having a zero imaginary component. prefer comp: complex results are preserved regardless of its imag comp. - Correspondingly, all functions should automatically convert any value specified into it's most closely equivalent form as may be required by a function (be it real, complex, angular vs. radians) if compatible, and correspondingly return a result consistent with the specified mode preference setting as described above; and never require modes be changed. For example, currently y^x and x/root/y will needlessly yield an error if y is a complex and x is a rational fraction, unless converted manually to a real if not in approx mode; rather than it being simply converted automatically as may be required, and thereby avoiding confusion. - Along a similar vein, it would be awful nice if plotting were extended to enable both real and imaginary components of a function to be graphed simultaneously with hypothetically the imaginary part (or arbitrary second function) being drawn as a dotted line along with the real part of the primarily specified function being drawn with a solid line. - With respect to display font selection, there seem to be a few quirks remaining, which would be nice to see fixed/refined. For example: Explicitly based values such as #3Bh and symbols with Stack:Small selected will use a smaller font, but normal values will not for some reason. Textbook equations on the stack use a small font if EQW:Small_Stack_Disp is selected, but also shrinks normal value font as well. It appears that Stack:Small and EqW:Small_Stack_Disp flags have been mixed up, where the font selected for normal values has been incorrectly tied to EqW:Small_Stack_Disp, not Stack:Small flags? Ideally, it seems simpler to specify whether whether one wants to select a smaller font to be used for values otherwise either 2x taller than the selected system font, and/or otherwise wider than the display's width. - Further, it would be very nice to see another option for equation display format, possibly called Symbolic, where like TextBook, it pretty prints equations; but rather than cluttering up the display with tall fractions and roots, it instead favors the compact display of exponentials. For example: x^(a/b)/y^(c/d) => a/b -c/d x * y not: a - b x --- c - d y or other similarly horrid textbook formatted equation with roots when rational exponentials are specified. - As a possibly minor nit, in exact mode it seems inconsistent that 'x' x^2 => sq(x), while 'x' 2 y^x => x^2 as expected for both; thereby would be nice to see the former also yield x^2 for consistency. - CAS state/variables should not corrupt local variables (I suspect they should be stored in their own dedicated CAS_VAR subdirectory; as possibly should also be the case for various equation libs). - if a variable has been defined within the current context, it seem that it's value is substituted regardless of the Numeric flag settings within CAS; although I may misunderstand, and may not be related. - The standard display mode should allow a thousands separator to be specified; along with the maximum digits of displayed precision. (so large numbers are easier to read, while simultaneously limiting the maximum width of displayed values without having to otherwise specify a fixed format which will always display a fixed number of digits for all real values). Overall, it seem that if mode and variable dependencies that the various capabilities depend upon were cleaned up to establish any modes/values required within their own local environment, converting any values as may be require themselves, returning only values/ variables expected and useful to the then current user environment; combined with a few tweaks to the display mode semantics and ideally graphing capabilities; the user experience (particularly for new users) would be substantially improved. Thereby inevitably improving HP's acceptance by new users, as being the preferred tool by all those requiring more than the most basic of capabilities, without having to otherwise conquer the idiosyncrasies of the machine. === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions schlie kirjoitti X > - It would be nice if it weren't necessary to set/switch calc modes to > specific settings just to get the results one would normally expect X ***A XC utility does this and I have suggested this to Parisse CAS should simply 1) save user flags 2) do it's operations and change flags if needed 3) restore user flags ***B About the Real/Complex numbers I suggested a behavior that is similar to Overflow Result/Indicator or Underflow or Infinite except something like this: Hard Real Mode flag if set, calc would give error Error: Complex Result if clear (default) do as suggested earlier at ***A e.g.. silently switch mode for a while Anyway ALWAYS set a Complex Result Indicator flag (which user has to manually reset) on Complex Result Errors or temp mode changes leave as is (set or clear) if stayed in Real Domain during execution so that even a single Complex Result of a function and also re-occurring cases and up setting the indicator flag which therefore has to be cleared before operations and in-between if needed in your application This indicator flag is useful for testing whether Complex Result has occurred (regardless if that is caused by an error condition or a mode switch) === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) As an addendum to the above, after further testing 2.14, which seems to have installed with no problems via an SD Card; I noticed one of my pet peeves being bug #241 from HPCalc.org bug db is still unresolved; as it would be really nice if functions never return suspect answers without obvious indication they may be erroneous; as it is too easy to assume otherwise. (For example solver should never return x=1 for x^ln(x)=0, if info indicates that it's likely erroneous; returning an error object is likely better, and info could then contain a prospective answer, with the error condition.) I wonder if there may be related a basic bug having to do with how the solver may attempt to solve x^ln(x), as 1^ln(1)=1 with no discontinuities within its vicinity? === Subject: Re: Future 40/50g Firmware Thoughts/Suggestions posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) As one last observation, it seems inconsistent that the real and imaginary parts of complex numbers are displayed separated by a comma; as it seems superfluous, at least using rpn; and just makes them visually cluttered. Personally would likely prefer they either be simply separated by a space or sign if in parens, or the signed imaginary part pref/suffixed by an i; for example (3.2+4.5), 3.2+4.5i or possibly 3.2+i4.5 to be more consistent with its complex symbolic representation mode, and be more familiar to some. Somewhat related, there appears to be no method by which rational imaginary numbers may be specified within parens, i.e. (-2/3 +4/5), but seemingly capable if being composed as -2/3+4/5i if pressing comp after entry of a value's real part enabled it's imaginary part to be concatenated. === Subject: HP 40GS - New ROM 2.20 posting-account=kINXRQoAAACwzeObbKzgkSilFR8cKfNC Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1) ; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; BCD2000; OfficeLiveConnector.1.3; OfficeLivePatch.0.0; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618; BCD2000),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) First ever ROM update available at hpcalc.org, apparently only available through http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=7099 === Subject: Re: [50g] input of complex number > A complex number in this form: (123, (angle)30) works > But when I try to use a variable I always get 'Invalid Syntax' That's because it is invalid syntax :) Complex number objects can contain only two _real_number_ components; it has always been this way in all HP48/49/50. Variables can be present only within symbolic _expressions_ (formulas), or within symbolic arrays on 49/50 series only, since, in UserRPL, even arrays had to be numeric on the HP48 series. > How can I use variables for the absolute value and the argument > of a complex number? As has already been noted, the syntax '( R, <)t )' can be used to generate the symbolic expression 'R*COS(t)+R*SIN(t)*i' This is not a complex number; it is a symbolic _expression_ Note that if you perform RE (real part) and IM (imaginary part) on that expression, you get, respectively: 'COS(t)*RE(R)-SIN(t)*IM(R)' @ real part 'COS(t)*IM(R)+SIN(t)*RE(R)' @ imaginary part This (correctly) takes into consideration the fact that even 'R' could be complex-valued, ('t' happened to be in my 'REALASSUME' list in CASDIR, so it was assumed above to be real-valued). More generally, with 't' removed from 'REALASSUME' these would be much more complicated expressions, just as would be ABS and ARG of the above symbolic, not necessarily producing 'R' and 't' at all, revealing why it does not actually make much sense to try think in general terms of absolute value and argument when variable names replace numbers, in the same simple way as we can for complex _numbers_ which in turn is why no attempt is made to either accept complex _numbers_ symbolically, nor to decompile (display) complex-valued _expressions_ into polar form. -- === Subject: Re: [50g] input of complex number Quite a complex story which invoked my complexes... John H Meyers kirjoitti viestiss.8a:op.urp8pxlknn735j@miu.edu... > >> A complex number in this form: (123, (angle)30) works > >> But when I try to use a variable I always get 'Invalid Syntax' > > That's because it is invalid syntax :) > > Complex number objects can contain only two _real_number_ components; > it has always been this way in all HP48/49/50. > > Variables can be present only within symbolic _expressions_ (formulas), > or within symbolic arrays on 49/50 series only, > since, in UserRPL, even arrays had to be numeric on the HP48 series. > >> How can I use variables for the absolute value and the argument >> of a complex number? > > As has already been noted, the syntax '( R, <)t )' > can be used to generate the symbolic expression > 'R*COS(t)+R*SIN(t)*i' > > This is not a complex number; it is a symbolic _expression_ > > Note that if you perform RE (real part) and IM (imaginary part) > on that expression, you get, respectively: > > 'COS(t)*RE(R)-SIN(t)*IM(R)' @ real part > 'COS(t)*IM(R)+SIN(t)*RE(R)' @ imaginary part > > This (correctly) takes into consideration > the fact that even 'R' could be complex-valued, > ('t' happened to be in my 'REALASSUME' list in CASDIR, > so it was assumed above to be real-valued). > > More generally, with 't' removed from 'REALASSUME' > these would be much more complicated expressions, > just as would be ABS and ARG of the above symbolic, > not necessarily producing 'R' and 't' at all, > revealing why it does not actually make much sense > to try think in general terms of absolute value > and argument when variable names replace numbers, > in the same simple way as we can for complex _numbers_ > which in turn is why no attempt is made to either > accept complex _numbers_ symbolically, > nor to decompile (display) complex-valued _expressions_ > into polar form. > > -- === Subject: Re: HP 50g Emulator on Vista? InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > I've switch to Mac and use a different emulator, but IIRC, to fix that > problem do the following: > order. :-) Bill === Subject: NiMH Memory Effect InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I just completed the 40th charge cycle of my Duracell NiMH cells in the 49G+ and started to charge them again. The charger's LEDs started to flash, meaning it couldn't recharge them. (I'm not sure what it's looking for, but it can tell NiMH from alkalines and kicks up a fuss if you try to charge the latter. Internal resistance? Rise time?) So I went on a quest. Not surprisingly, the manufacturers either don't mention memory effect or let you think that there isn't any. However, the local reference library has an excellent collection of engineering app notes (Handbook of Batteries, McGraw-Hill, is a good one). The editors do a nice job of sorting out facts from what the battery makers would like you to believe. Their conclusion was that there *is* a memory effect, though much rarer than with nickel-cadmiums. If the cell's capacity falls off or it won't charge, they recommend a few complete discharge and charge cycles. So I ran down the cells completely in a flashlight. Success - after a deep cycle, they were back on the job again. A further recommendation was that if you're doing partial recharges (inevitable with the calculator), you should do one deep cycle every tenth recharge. Bill === Subject: Re: NiMH Memory Effect > if you're doing partial recharges (inevitable with the calculator), > you should do one deep cycle every tenth recharge. And sleep all night, at least one day per week :) -[ ]- === Subject: Re: Port Memory HP 49G+ posting-account=tK2cUgkAAABPl7vxXuLS8-X63eEhN1C3 .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > If the MEM command returns an estimate of the available > within a program? 1 PVARS NIP --> free mem in port 1. 2 PVARS NIP --> free mem in port 2. MEM --> free mem in port 0 (same as 0 PVARS NIP). There's no user-RPL equivalent for port 3. Just use a large-capacity card. ;-) Some user-written ARM-code programs that *do* work with port 3 are available, but they *all* do Bad Things to port 2 in ROM versions later than 2.10. Don't use any of them until they are rewritten to work correctly with port 2 in all ROM versions. -Joe- === Subject: Re: User-Key Assignments HP 49G+ By the way, here is a very sophisticated program for calculating the rc.p codes for (possibly shifted) keys, on all HP48/49/50: << -1 WAIT >> 'KK' STO Invoke program, press (possibly shifted) key, get rc.p Bloated version: << CLLCD Press [shifted?] key 3 DISP -1 WAIT >> 'KK' STO For keys and combinations that don't normally work with this (e.g. Alpha+ON, LS+RS, etc.) press the key to the immediate right of the actual final key, then subtract 1 from answer. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: rom 2.14 observations besides port 2 ? > I have been following the new rom 2.14 posts, > and have not seen anything besides the port 2 issues, > and the addition of the slipstream code. > I was using BP's 2.10-7 and since I had the day off, > decided to try it. > Anyone else out there try it and have anything to say on the bug > fixes, additions, etc ? No answer on 2.14 here (too advanced for me :) But as to BP's Geometry/Spreadsheet/CAPES edition (not the actual 2.10 that was intended for normal release), it seems to have robbed Peter [VPN] to pay Paul [???] In other words, there may not have been room for everything, so other stuff might have been tossed overboard, or functions mixed up, and some software relying on any of that may not work (or may crash, wipe memory, or accidentally release nuclear codes and start a war) When do we find out whether supported stuff still is? > One question, when I loaded the new rom, the new libraries were > loaded. ( I had previously cleared them out just in case ) > I assume this means that I don't have to reload them again. Many older ROM versions came with these libraries over-running a user flash bank every time, causing quite a nuisance; this went away at least by 2.09 -- is it back to the bad old days again? --- I just spilled my coffee on the computer -- is this going to happen again? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104850/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_an_Invisible_Man Music by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Walker [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: rom 2.14 observations besides port 2 ? > I just spilled my coffee on the computer -- is this going to happen again? > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104850/ > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs of an Invisible Man > Music by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley Walker Yep, the coffee started the whole thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCE99XqmNb4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl Hannah . === Subject: Re: rom 2.14 observations besides port 2 ? posting-account=kINXRQoAAACwzeObbKzgkSilFR8cKfNC Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1) ; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; BCD2000; OfficeLiveConnector.1.3; OfficeLivePatch.0.0; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30618; BCD2000),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > ... The version 2.10-7 that was available in Spain does NOT have the ^WRITEMENU bug. === Subject: Re: rom 2.14 observations besides port 2 ? 10-7BP kirjoitti >> That is not compatible with the software that *I* use > > What is not compatible? 10-7BP? 2.14-2? Any examples? > > TW === Subject: Fractions in the oldest calculator posting-account=QBRP_woAAAACvKwdAEfnZqux5xRRTgZ1 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Although fractions are thought to be a difficult mathematical concept to learn, the adult brain encodes them automatically without conscious thought, according to new research in the April 8 issue of The Journal of Neuroscience. The study shows that cells in the intraparietal sulcus (IPS) and the prefrontal cortex Ñ brain regions important for processing whole numbers Ñ are tuned to respond to particular fractions. The findings suggest that adults have an intuitive understanding of fractions and may aid in the development of new teaching techniques. Fractions are often considered a major stumbling block in math education, said Daniel Ansari, PhD, at the University of Western Ontario in Canada, an expert on numerical cognition in children and adults who was not affiliated with the study. This new study challenges the notion that children must undergo a qualitative shift in order to understand fractions and use them in calculations. The findings instead suggest that fractions are built upon the system that is employed to represent basic numerical magnitude in the brain, Ansari said. The study authors, Simon Jacob, MD, and Andreas Nieder, PhD, at the University of T.9fbingen in Germany, scanned the brains of adult participants as they watched fractions flashed on a screen. The researchers used a technique called functional MRI adaptation (fMRA) to identify brain regions that adapt Ñ or show decreased activity Ñ to the same stimulus presented over and over again. When the researchers rapidly and repeatedly presented study participants with fractions that equaled approximately 1Ú6, they found decreased activation in the IPS and prefrontal cortex. Then, the researchers showed the participants fractions that deviated from 1Ú6. The more the fraction differed from 1Ú6, the greater the activity in IPS cells. The rapid presentation of each fraction and small variations in fraction value ensured that study participants directly processed the fractions, rather than calculating their values. These findings suggest that fractions automatically activate the IPS and prefrontal cortex in adults. The researchers found that distinct groups of cells in these brain regions responded to different fraction values. Moreover, the cells responded the same way, whether fractions were presented as either numbers (1Ú4) or words (one-fourth). The study builds on previous findings showing that human babies and nonhuman primates understand proportions. These experiments change the way we should think about fractions, said study author Jacob. We have shown that our highly-trained brains represent fractions intuitively, a result that could influence the teaching of arithmetic and mathematics in schools, he said. Future research will determine whether children process fractions the same way as adults, who may have learned to do so through experience. More information: http://www.jneurosci.org/ http://www.physorg.com/news158345849.html === Subject: Re: Fractions in the oldest calculator posting-account=KxEIGwoAAAALMxy6hykxLK1wPdiyuNkK Gecko/2009032609 Firefox/3.0.8,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > These experiments change the way we should think about fractions, > said study author Jacob. We have shown that our highly-trained brains > represent fractions intuitively, a result that could influence the > teaching of arithmetic and mathematics in schools, he said. Yes, and I bet that with years of study, one might also find that adults represent numbers like 100 intuitively rather than by counting 1,2,3,4...100. They also represent words intuitively rather than recalling a definition from a dictionary. We also understand how to walk, ride a bicycle or drive a car intuitively rather than by thinking through each part of the process. In each case, the concept has to be learned. We go through a stage where we have to consciously think about the concept and its components. But after repetition and familiarity, it eventually becomes second nature (i.e., intuitive). Did someone actually pay these people to do this study? I don't see that it shows anything at all. > > Future research will determine whether children process fractions the > same way as adults, who may have learned to do so through experience. Translation: they want more funding to continue goofing around. Dave P.S. Although I'm critical of the study, I thank Gary for being thoughtful enough to post it on the newsgroup. My criticism isn't aimed at him in any way. === Subject: Re: Fractions in the oldest calculator Trident/4.0; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > Future research will determine whether children process fractions the > > same way as adults, who may have learned to do so through experience. > > Translation: they want more funding to continue goofing around. Although this is utterly off-topic, I can't resist posting one of my all-time favorite parodies. I found it on alt.humor.best-of-usenet. Bill === Subject: News from the kitchen carpet of Gokmop Towers We here at the Foodstuffs Ballistics Lab at Gokmop Towers are infuriated to announce the completion of a further field trial involving the projection of foodstuffs onto the carpet inexplicably covering the kitchen floor. The scientific intent of this trial was to field-test a big, hole-filled spoonlike device that has been hanging on the kitchen wall for years without ever, as far as can be determined, being be suitable for removing boiled eggs from the water in which they were being boiled. The experiment revealed that, while the device functioned in eggular water-removal mode, it also had a subsidiary egg-juggling function, by means of which two boiled eggs simultaneously lifted from the pan could be persuaded to jostle each other until one or other of them was precipitated on the carpet. The impact of the soft-boiled egg on the carpet produced the following observable effects: 1. Transient acoustic signature characterised by experimenter as Splunch! 2. Substantial shatter damage to shell of precipitated egg. 3. Effusion of large parts of yolk and some white onto carpet. 4. Pronouncement of epithet Oh, you fucking bitch by experimenter (Gokmop). Subsequent inspection and clean-up work revealed that liquid egg debris was relatively simple to remove from carpet using Andrex toilet tissue (soft, strong, and very, very long), not having penetrated into the nap of the carpet. This compares favourably with the previous trial in this series using Chicken Korma: see Foodstuffs Ballistics Report FBLR/ChKorm/001/0Fuck/Fuckitty-Fuck. The egg-flinging spoon has been returned to its position on the kitchen wall for a further ten years. The conduct of future trials is dependent on obtaining further research funding. -- === Subject: Re: Fractions in the oldest calculator posting-account=QBRP_woAAAACvKwdAEfnZqux5xRRTgZ1 > > > These experiments change the way we should think about fractions, > > said study author Jacob. We have shown that our highly-trained brains > > represent fractions intuitively, a result that could influence the > > teaching of arithmetic and mathematics in schools, he said. > > Yes, and I bet that with years of study, one might also find that > adults represent numbers like 100 intuitively rather than by counting > 1,2,3,4...100. ÊThey also represent words intuitively rather than > recalling a definition from a dictionary. We also understand how to > walk, ride a bicycle or drive a car intuitively rather than by > thinking through each part of the process. > > In each case, the concept has to be learned. ÊWe go through a stage > where we have to consciously think about the concept and its > components. ÊBut after repetition and familiarity, it eventually > becomes second nature (i.e., intuitive). > > Did someone actually pay these people to do this study? ÊI don't see > that it shows anything at all. > > > > > Future research will determine whether children process fractions the > > same way as adults, who may have learned to do so through experience. > > Translation: they want more funding to continue goofing around. > > Dave > > P.S. Although I'm critical of the study, I thank Gary for being > thoughtful enough to post it on the newsgroup. ÊMy criticism isn't > aimed at him in any way. Some number concepts do seem to be innate. I'll post some evidence when I get chance. Lance === Subject: Re: Fractions in the oldest calculator > Some number concepts do seem to be innate. I'll post some evidence > when I get chance. -- Bruce Horrocks Surrey England (bruce at scorecrow dot com) === Subject: Re: Fractions in the oldest calculator >Although fractions are thought to be a difficult mathematical concept >to learn, the adult brain encodes them automatically without conscious >thought, according to new research in the April 8 issue of The Journal >of Neuroscience. The study shows that cells in the intraparietal >sulcus (IPS) and the prefrontal cortex ÷ brain regions important for >processing whole numbers ÷ are tuned to respond to particular >fractions. The findings suggest that adults have an intuitive >understanding of fractions and may aid in the development of new >teaching techniques. > >Fractions are often considered a major stumbling block in math >education, said Daniel Ansari, PhD, at the University of Western >Ontario in Canada, an expert on numerical cognition in children and >adults who was not affiliated with the study. This new study >challenges the notion that children must undergo a qualitative shift >in order to understand fractions and use them in calculations. The >findings instead suggest that fractions are built upon the system that >is employed to represent basic numerical magnitude in the brain, >Ansari said. > >The study authors, Simon Jacob, MD, and Andreas Nieder, PhD, at the >University of T.9fbingen in Germany, scanned the brains of adult >participants as they watched fractions flashed on a screen. The >researchers used a technique called functional MRI adaptation (fMRA) >to identify brain regions that adapt ÷ or show decreased activity ÷ to >the same stimulus presented over and over again. > >When the researchers rapidly and repeatedly presented study >participants with fractions that equaled approximately 1?6, they found >decreased activation in the IPS and prefrontal cortex. Then, the >researchers showed the participants fractions that deviated from 1?6. >The more the fraction differed from 1?6, the greater the activity in >IPS cells. The rapid presentation of each fraction and small >variations in fraction value ensured that study participants directly >processed the fractions, rather than calculating their values. > >These findings suggest that fractions automatically activate the IPS >and prefrontal cortex in adults. The researchers found that distinct >groups of cells in these brain regions responded to different fraction >values. Moreover, the cells responded the same way, whether fractions >were presented as either numbers (1?4) or words (one-fourth). > >The study builds on previous findings showing that human babies and >nonhuman primates understand proportions. > >These experiments change the way we should think about fractions, >said study author Jacob. We have shown that our highly-trained brains >represent fractions intuitively, a result that could influence the >teaching of arithmetic and mathematics in schools, he said. > >Future research will determine whether children process fractions the >same way as adults, who may have learned to do so through experience. > >More information: http://www.jneurosci.org/ > >http://www.physorg.com/news158345849.html I watched a Nova episode on the difference in the development of the brains of young Great Apes and human children. It is well known that the human brain continues to develop and grow until the late teens and early twenties. Three year olds can not do certain things mentally that 4 year olds have no trouble with at all. Since the researchers mentioned above dealt with adults I do not seen how they can translate this possible inbuilt genetic ability to children. It is more than possible that this inbuilt ability to handle certain fractions is not well developed in younger children. Harold A Climer Dept. Of Physics Geology, and Astronomy U.T, Chattanooga Rm. 406A Engineering, Math & Computer Science Building 615 McCallie Ave. Chattanooga TN 37403 Harold-Cimer@utc.edu === Subject: Re: Fractions in the oldest calculator posting-account=QBRP_woAAAACvKwdAEfnZqux5xRRTgZ1 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > >Although fractions are thought to be a difficult mathematical concept > >to learn, the adult brain encodes them automatically without conscious > >thought, according to new research in the April 8 issue of The Journal > >of Neuroscience. The study shows that cells in the intraparietal > >sulcus (IPS) and the prefrontal cortex ? brain regions important for > >processing whole numbers ? are tuned to respond to particular > >fractions. The findings suggest that adults have an intuitive > >understanding of fractions and may aid in the development of new > >teaching techniques. > > > >Fractions are often considered a major stumbling block in math > >education, said Daniel Ansari, PhD, at the University of Western > >Ontario in Canada, an expert on numerical cognition in children and > >adults who was not affiliated with the study. This new study > >challenges the notion that children must undergo a qualitative shift > >in order to understand fractions and use them in calculations. The > >findings instead suggest that fractions are built upon the system that > >is employed to represent basic numerical magnitude in the brain, > >Ansari said. > > > >The study authors, Simon Jacob, MD, and Andreas Nieder, PhD, at the > >University of T?bingen in Germany, scanned the brains of adult > >participants as they watched fractions flashed on a screen. The > >researchers used a technique called functional MRI adaptation (fMRA) > >to identify brain regions that adapt ? or show decreased activity ? to > >the same stimulus presented over and over again. > > > >When the researchers rapidly and repeatedly presented study > >participants with fractions that equaled approximately 1?6, they found > >decreased activation in the IPS and prefrontal cortex. Then, the > >researchers showed the participants fractions that deviated from 1?6. > >The more the fraction differed from 1?6, the greater the activity in > >IPS cells. The rapid presentation of each fraction and small > >variations in fraction value ensured that study participants directly > >processed the fractions, rather than calculating their values. > > > >These findings suggest that fractions automatically activate the IPS > >and prefrontal cortex in adults. The researchers found that distinct > >groups of cells in these brain regions responded to different fraction > >values. Moreover, the cells responded the same way, whether fractions > >were presented as either numbers (1?4) or words (one-fourth). > > > >The study builds on previous findings showing that human babies and > >nonhuman primates understand proportions. > > > >These experiments change the way we should think about fractions, > >said study author Jacob. We have shown that our highly-trained brains > >represent fractions intuitively, a result that could influence the > >teaching of arithmetic and mathematics in schools, he said. > > > >Future research will determine whether children process fractions the > >same way as adults, who may have learned to do so through experience. > > > >More information: http://www.jneurosci.org/ > > > >http://www.physorg.com/news158345849.html > > > I watched a Nova episode on the difference in the development of the > brains of young Great Apes and human children. > It is well known that the human brain continues to develop and grow > until the late teens and early twenties. Three year olds can not do > certain things mentally that 4 year olds have no trouble with at all. > Since the researchers mentioned above dealt with adults I do not seen > how they can translate this possible inbuilt genetic ability to > children. It is more than possible that this inbuilt ability to handle > certain fractions is not well developed in younger children. > Harold A Climer > Dept. Of Physics Geology, and Astronomy > U.T, Chattanooga > Rm. 406A Engineering, Math & Computer Science Building > 615 McCallie Ave. Chattanooga TN 37403 > Harold-Cimer@utc.edu I agree. One of the changes that takes place in an infant's brain is myelination. That is, quite large parts of a new born child's brain have neurons that are not sheathed in fatty insulating cells called myelin cells. Myelination is not complete until a child is about three years old. So some aspects of young children's poor performance on cognitive taks is not to do with lacking neural structures but to do with having neural structures that are not yet ready to operate. The brain is incredibly plastic. Many more neurons and neural connections are found in a three/four year old brain than in an adult brain. It seems that young brains form all kinds of connections between cells, and then let experience prune away the connections that are not useful (sometimes this is called neural Darwinism). So it has to be clear that even if neural structures for fractions form, in the absence of use they may atrophy and disappear. Lance === Subject: Re: Fractions in the oldest calculator Harold A. Climer kirjoitti viestiss.8a:ubaqt457akab9lk00csg5qckvcv231i10v@4ax.com... X >>The study builds on previous findings showing that human babies and >>nonhuman primates understand proportions. >> >>These experiments change the way we should think about fractions, >>said study author Jacob. We have shown that our highly-trained brains >>represent fractions intuitively, a result that could influence the >>teaching of arithmetic and mathematics in schools, he said. >> >>Future research will determine whether children process fractions the >>same way as adults, who may have learned to do so through experience. >> >>More information: http://www.jneurosci.org/ >> >>http://www.physorg.com/news158345849.html > > > I watched a Nova episode on the difference in the development of the > brains of young Great Apes and human children. > It is well known that the human brain continues to develop and grow > until the late teens and early twenties. Three year olds can not do > certain things mentally that 4 year olds have no trouble with at all. > Since the researchers mentioned above dealt with adults I do not seen > how they can translate this possible inbuilt genetic ability to > children. It is more than possible that this inbuilt ability to handle > certain fractions is not well developed in younger children. > Harold A Climer > Dept. Of Physics Geology, and Astronomy > U.T, Chattanooga > Rm. 406A Engineering, Math & Computer Science Building > 615 McCallie Ave. Chattanooga TN 37403 > Harold-Cimer@utc.edu A fraction of us did not have trouble at school with fractions === Subject: Guide to manipulating expressions? posting-account=GVUxYAoAAAAdOTkvz69xDfu_dTC2GGXu Gecko/2009032609 Firefox/3.0.8 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) I was looking for a guide to learn how to manipulate the expressions returned by my HP 50g. In particular, I'd like to know how to go from ln(a)-ln(b) to ln(a/b), but it would be great if I could learn other stuff. === Subject: Re: Guide to manipulating expressions? kirjoitti > > I was looking for a guide to learn how to manipulate the expressions > returned by my HP 50g. > In particular, I'd like to know how to go from ln(a)-ln(b) to ln(a/b), > but it would be great if I could learn other stuff. > You could examine the UserRPL code from STARTVPN which can be found from www.hpcalc.org under 49 Math Misc (or use search) Veli-Pekka Nousianen PS: alternatively you could search for the name above === Subject: DISP Command HP 49G+ posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) The following program displays an integer on each of the seven display lines. << CLLCD 1 7 FOR j j R->I + j DISP NEXT 7 FREEZE >> The FREEZE command freezes a part or all of the display so that it is not updated until a key is pressed. After I press a key, I type 7 FREEZE, then ENTER. 1) Why don't I see my display? 2) Do these DISP variables(?) have to be re-initialized? 3) Where do these DISP variables(?) reside? Mark === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ posting-account=XOfZ9woAAACnHbd7tyI_QRfVm9UtK_HP CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > The following program displays an integer > on each of the seven display lines. > > << CLLCD 1 7 > Ê Ê FOR j j R->I + j > DISP > Ê Ê NEXT 7 FREEZE > >> > > The FREEZE command freezes a part or > all of the display so that it is not > updated until a key is pressed. ÊAfter > I press a key, I type 7 FREEZE, then > ENTER. > > 1) Why don't I see my display? > > 2) Do these DISP variables(?) have to > Ê Êbe re-initialized? > > 3) Where do these DISP variables(?) > Ê Êreside? > > > Mark Try this: << CLLCD 1 7 FOR j j DUP DISP NEXT 7 FREEZE >> === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ posting-account=eF2f0AoAAAB2spBRiZOs91ItDKLGDCIk Gecko/2009032609 Firefox/3.0.8,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > ÊAfter > I press a key, I type 7 FREEZE, then > ENTER. > > 1) Why don't I see my display? > FREEZE is really meant to be used into a program. I think it makes no sense to type it. You will typically to : << HELLO WORLD 1 DISP 3 FREEZE >> If you launch this program, you will end up with HELLO WORLD on line one. But if you type it, it makes no sense : by the time you type 3 FREEZE, HELLO WORLD is long gone... === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > ÊAfter > > I press a key, I type 7 FREEZE, then > > ENTER. > > > 1) Why don't I see my display? > > FREEZE is really meant to be used into a program. > I think it makes no sense to type it. > > You will typically to : > << HELLO WORLD 1 DISP > 3 FREEZE >> > > If you launch this program, you will end up with HELLO WORLD on line > one. > > But if you type it, it makes no sense : by the time you type 3 FREEZE, > HELLO WORLD is long gone... > But if you type it, it makes no sense : by the time you type 3 FREEZE, HELLO WORLD is long gone... Where has HELLO WORLD gone? Is it kept in temporary memory and after 3 FREEZE is executed it's discarded? === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ PremiumBlend kirjoitti > > The following program displays an integer > on each of the seven display lines. > > << CLLCD 1 7 > FOR j j R->I + j > DISP > NEXT 7 FREEZE > >> > > The FREEZE command freezes a part or > all of the display so that it is not > updated until a key is pressed. After > I press a key, I type 7 FREEZE, then > ENTER. > > 1) Why don't I see my display? What would you thibk you should see > 2) Do these DISP variables(?) have to > be re-initialized? What DISP variables? I see only one FOR-loop variable 'j' > 3) Where do these DISP variables(?) > reside? There are no DISP variables in your code You are welcome > Mark Hitman PS: how about a programming course? === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Apr 8, 8:30Êpm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > PremiumBlend kirjoitti > > > > > > > > The following program displays an integer > > on each of the seven display lines. > > > << CLLCD 1 7 > > Ê ÊFOR j j R->I + j > > DISP > > Ê ÊNEXT 7 FREEZE > > >> > > > The FREEZE command freezes a part or > > all of the display so that it is not > > updated until a key is pressed. ÊAfter > > I press a key, I type 7 FREEZE, then > > ENTER. > > > 1) Why don't I see my display? > > What would you thibk you should see > > > 2) Do these DISP variables(?) have to > > Ê be re-initialized? > > What DISP variables? > I see only one FOR-loop variable 'j' > > > 3) Where do these DISP variables(?) > > Ê reside? > > There are no DISP variables in your code > > > You are welcome > > > Mark > > Hitman > PS: > how about a programming course?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - > What would you thibk you should see I think I should see the same output on my screen as if I executed the above program again. > What DISP variables? What do you call the location in memory where my strings are kept before they are displayed on the screen after 7 FREEZE? > There are no DISP variables in your code Are you implying that DISP is simply a command? how about a programming course? Would you tutor me? === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1758 PremiumBlend kirjoitti On Apr 8, 8:30 pm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > PremiumBlend kirjoitti X > What DISP variables? What do you call the location in memory where my strings are kept before they are displayed on the screen after 7 FREEZE? > There are no DISP variables in your code Are you implying that DISP is simply a command? how about a programming course? Would you tutor me? === Subject: DISP Command HP 49G+ posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) 1) In what part of calculator memory are the strings that are DISPlayed after the FREEZE command kept? 2) Can those strings be recovered or are they discarded after a key is pressed following the FREEZE command? 3) The reason I pose these questions is that after my program outputs information to the screen, I want to be able to view that information again in case I inadvertently press a key. My current solution to this problem is to create seven variables named DISP1, DISP2, ..., DISP7 and simultaneously store the strings in these after using 1 DISP, 2 DISP, etc. I would then have a user-key assignment that would execute a program which would re-display the output to the screen. Mark === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ > In what part of calculator memory are the strings > that are DISPlayed after the FREEZE command kept? Nowhere. on display, causing _immediate_ appearance of the text, even while your program continues running. The line number argument to DISP is used only to calculate where in the screen image to begin overwriting. > Can those strings be recovered or are they discarded > after a key is pressed following the FREEZE command? The arguments to a DISP command are discarded immediately after the DISP command has used them to write into the currently displayed screen image; nothing is saved except the current screen image itself. The screen image usually does not remain saved for long, however, because when your program terminates, the calculator then always performs a function to bring the display up to date by re-writing every part of the screen image, just before waiting for the next keystroke. What's always re-written is the status area at the top of the screen, the stack area (to show the final content of the stack, as left by your program), and the menu area at the bottom. The purpose of the FREEZE command is to tell the SysDisplay function which of these three areas of the screen image, if any, _not_ to refresh with new information, those screen rows which your FREEZE argument implies leaving alone (7 FREEZE meaning to refresh none of the three areas mentioned above). The moment you next press a key, however, the screen image begins to change again, just the same as when you release the frozen image from a paused VCR or DVD player, and let the video resume playing, whereupon the previously frozen frame is naturally forgotten. To illustrate, try each of these: Note that it makes no difference where one puts FREEZE, only that it has been done before the program ends. > The reason I pose these questions is that after > my program outputs information to the screen, > I want to be able to view that information again > in case I inadvertently press a key. You would need to save and re-display the information yourself. If you can recalculate the information from other info, then just do that, or else save the displayed info, or else save the screen image via LCD-> and re-display it via ->LCD 7 FREEZE [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > In what part of calculator memory are the strings > > that are DISPlayed after the FREEZE command kept? > > Nowhere. > > on display, causing immediate appearance of the text, > even while your program continues running. > > The line number argument to DISP is used only to calculate > where in the screen image to begin overwriting. > > > Can those strings be recovered or are they discarded > > after a key is pressed following the FREEZE command? > > The arguments to a DISP command are discarded > immediately after the DISP command has used them > to write into the currently displayed screen image; > nothing is saved except the current screen image itself. > > The screen image usually does not remain saved for long, however, > because when your program terminates, the calculator then > always performs a function to bring the display up to date > by re-writing every part of the screen image, > just before waiting for the next keystroke. > > What's always re-written > is the status area at the top of the screen, > the stack area (to show the final content of the stack, > as left by your program), and the menu area at the bottom. > > The purpose of the FREEZE command > is to tell the SysDisplay function > which of these three areas of the screen image, if any, > not to refresh with new information, > those screen rows which your FREEZE argument implies leaving alone > (7 FREEZE meaning to refresh none of the three areas mentioned above). > > The moment you next press a key, however, the screen image > begins to change again, just the same as when you release > the frozen image from a paused VCR or DVD player, > and let the video resume playing, > whereupon the previously frozen frame is naturally forgotten. > > To illustrate, try each of these: > > > > > Note that it makes no difference where one puts FREEZE, > only that it has been done before the program ends. > > > The reason I pose these questions is that after > > my program outputs information to the screen, > > I want to be able to view that information again > > in case I inadvertently press a key. > > You would need to save and re-display the information yourself. > > If you can recalculate the information from other info, > then just do that, or else save the displayed info, > or else save the screen image via LCD-> > and re-display it via ->LCD 7 FREEZE > > [r->] [OFF] might be simplier than what I had in mind. I like simplicity but I'm often inclined to do otherwise. === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ short answers: 1: The strings are lost after display 2: It's only a DISPLAY, the strings have been eaten by DISP 3: how about this: Input on data stack: $7..$1 << 7 ->LIST 'SevenStringsList' STO Disp7Strings >> Disp7Strings:: << SevenStringsList OBJ-> 1 SWAP FOR x x DISP NEXT >> After all, I'd strongly recommend to read the associated chapters in the user documentation, to get an idea on object mangement and how data flow works on RPL machines. HTH Raymond PremiumBlend schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > 1) In what part of calculator memory are the strings > that are DISPlayed after the FREEZE command > kept? > > 2) Can those strings be recovered or are they > discarded after a key is pressed following the > FREEZE command? > > 3) The reason I pose these questions is that after > my program outputs information to the screen, > I want to be able to view that information again > in case I inadvertently press a key. My current > solution to this problem is to create seven > variables named DISP1, DISP2, ..., DISP7 > and simultaneously store the strings in these > after using 1 DISP, 2 DISP, etc. I would then > have a user-key assignment that would execute > a program which would re-display the output to > the screen. > > > Mark === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > short answers: > 1: The strings are lost after display > 2: It's only a DISPLAY, the strings have been eaten by DISP > > 3: how about this: > > Input on data stack: Ê Ê$7..$1 > > << Ê Ê7 ->LIST 'SevenStringsList' STO > Ê Ê Disp7Strings > > > > Disp7Strings:: > << Ê ÊSevenStringsList OBJ-> > Ê Ê 1 SWAP > Ê Ê FOR x x DISP > Ê Ê NEXT > > > > After all, I'd strongly recommend to read the > associated chapters in the user documentation, > to get an idea on object mangement and > how data flow works on RPL machines. > > HTH > > Raymond > > > > > > > 1) In what part of calculator memory are the strings > > Ê Êthat are DISPlayed after the FREEZE command > > Ê Êkept? > > > 2) Can those strings be recovered or are they > > Ê Êdiscarded after a key is pressed following the > > Ê ÊFREEZE command? > > > 3) The reason I pose these questions is that after > > Ê Êmy program outputs information to the screen, > > Ê ÊI want to be able to view that information again > > Ê Êin case I inadvertently press a key. ÊMy current > > Ê Êsolution to this problem is to create seven > > Ê Êvariables named DISP1, DISP2, ..., DISP7 > > Ê Êand simultaneously store the strings in these > > Ê Êafter using 1 DISP, 2 DISP, etc. ÊI would then > > Ê Êhave a user-key assignment that would execute > > Ê Êa program which would re-display the output to > > Ê Êthe screen. > > > > Mark- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ > > PremiumBlend schrieb im Newsbeitrag nano-nano X >> 3) The reason I pose these questions is that after >> my program outputs information to the screen, >> I want to be able to view that information again >> in case I inadvertently press a key. My current >> solution to this problem is to create seven >> variables named DISP1, DISP2, ..., DISP7 >> and simultaneously store the strings in these >> after using 1 DISP, 2 DISP, etc. I would then >> have a user-key assignment that would execute >> a program which would re-display the output to >> the screen. How about: << PICT PURGE Save 3 ->GROB These 2 ->GROB GROBADD lines 1 ->GROB GROBADD 'X^2' 0 ->GROB GROBADD PICT STO PICTURE >> === Subject: Re: DISP Command HP 49G+ <0jwDl.6017$xx4.1648@uutiset.elisa.fi> posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) On Apr 9, 8:22Êpm, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen > > PremiumBlend schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > nano-nano > X > > >> 3) The reason I pose these questions is that after > >> Ê Êmy program outputs information to the screen, > >> Ê ÊI want to be able to view that information again > >> Ê Êin case I inadvertently press a key. ÊMy current > >> Ê Êsolution to this problem is to create seven > >> Ê Êvariables named DISP1, DISP2, ..., DISP7 > >> Ê Êand simultaneously store the strings in these > >> Ê Êafter using 1 DISP, 2 DISP, etc. ÊI would then > >> Ê Êhave a user-key assignment that would execute > >> Ê Êa program which would re-display the output to > >> Ê Êthe screen. > > How about: > << ÊPICT ÊPURGE > Save 3 Ê->GROB > These 2 Ê->GROB > GROBADD > lines 1 Ê->GROB > GROBADD > 'X^2' 0 Ê->GROB > GROBADD > PICT STO > PICTURE >> === Subject: hp49g+ (50g & 49g) EXPLN (and similar) trig-to-exp conversion command posting-account=YQO0wAkAAADN-PB62a6Fc_tFKw04u0Mc Gecko/2009032609 Firefox/3.0.8,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello! With hp49g+ and rom 2.14-2, try this (i is the imaginary unit): (RPL mode) 1) '1-i' ASIN ->NUM -------> 0.66-1.06*i 2) 'x' ASIN EXPLN EXPAND -------> '1/2*(2*i*LN(x+sqrt(x^2-1)) +pi)' 'x=1-i' SUBST ->NUM --------> 2.47+1.06*i Why are the two results different? I've seen in the advanced user's reference manual for hp49g+ (edition 1) at section E in the table trigonometric expansions that the complex expression for ASIN(x) is '-i*LN(sqrt(1-x^2)+i*x)'. Hp49g+ gives a different expression also using other command like LIN and TSIMP. Maybe a complex argument for trig-to-exp conversion in not allowed? Matteo === Subject: Re: hp49g+ (50g & 49g) EXPLN (and similar) trig-to-exp conversion command posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Hello! > With hp49g+ and rom 2.14-2, try this (i is the imaginary unit): > > (RPL mode) > > 1) '1-i' ASIN Ê->NUM Ê Ê-------> Ê Ê0.66-1.06*i > > 2) 'x' ÊASIN ÊEXPLN ÊEXPAND Ê-------> Ê '1/2*(2*i*LN(x+sqrt(x^2-1)) > +pi)' > Ê Ê 'x=1-i' ÊSUBST Ê ->NUM Ê --------> Ê 2.47+1.06*i > > Why are the two results different? > I've seen in the advanced user's reference manual for hp49g+ (edition > 1) at section E in the table trigonometric expansions that the > complex expression for ASIN(x) is '-i*LN(sqrt(1-x^2)+i*x)'. Hp49g+ > gives a different expression also using other command like LIN and > TSIMP. Maybe a complex argument for trig-to-exp conversion in not > allowed? > > Matteo SIN is periodic. Add up the two answers and you get pi + 0i. SIN(pi-X) = SIN(X), so that's why. You could also take the SIN of both of the answers and get back 1-i (plus or minus rounding error), once again showing that sine is periodic. Asking the calculator to expand ASIN(X) is tough because of domain/ range restrictions. S.C. === Subject: Re: hp49g+ (50g & 49g) EXPLN (and similar) trig-to-exp conversion command posting-account=YQO0wAkAAADN-PB62a6Fc_tFKw04u0Mc Gecko/2009032609 Firefox/3.0.8,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Ok, thank you! However my question was not really about math but about the system flag Principal value: if the flag is set, I can't understand why the conversion doesn't give me the same result of the numerical command ->num.... It is like isol(sin(x)=0,x) with sysflag 1 set ----> result:x=0. The two numeric results in the first post are correct, ok. But the expression '-i*LN(sqrt(1-x^2)+i*x)' gives the principal value instead of '1/2*(2*i*LN(x+sqrt(x^2-1))+pi)' and it is shorter. Then, I prefer to see that the operation 'ASIN(1-i)-1/2* (2*i*LN((1-i)+sqrt((1-i)^2-1))+pi)' ->NUM gives '(0.,0.)', even if the math rules teach 'sin(x)==sin(pi-x)', ecc... But this is only my idea. Bye Matteo === Subject: Re: hp49g+ (50g & 49g) EXPLN (and similar) trig-to-exp conversion command posting-account=Pgf-sAoAAAA-vbop5xTISow6KqnlBruL AppleWebKit/525.27.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.2.1 Safari/525.27.1,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Ok, thank you! However my question was not really about math but about > the system flag Principal value: if the flag is set, I can't > understand why the conversion doesn't give me the same result of the > numerical command ->num.... It is like isol(sin(x)=0,x) with sysflag 1 > set ----> Êresult:x=0. The two numeric results in the first post are > correct, ok. But the expression '-i*LN(sqrt(1-x^2)+i*x)' gives the > principal value instead of '1/2*(2*i*LN(x+sqrt(x^2-1))+pi)' and it > is shorter. Then, I prefer to see that the operation 'ASIN(1-i)-1/2* > (2*i*LN((1-i)+sqrt((1-i)^2-1))+pi)' Ê->NUM gives '(0.,0.)', even if > the math rules teach 'sin(x)==sin(pi-x)', ecc... But this is only my > idea. > > Bye > Matteo The transform of ASIN(X) using EXPLN does needlessly introduces a PI valued real component result phase discontinuity about the real component of its argument > 0, and thereby a numeric discontinuity about 0 for complex valued arguments; for only real component argument values < 0, are it's calculated results numerically equivalent as expected. The arguably proper and phase consistent transformation of ASIN(X) should be -i*LN(SQRT(1-x^2)+i*X), as documented as it's arithmetic equivalent having no such discontinuity. Thereby yielding equivalent numerical results throughout it's argument domain. (I suspect that somewhere within the symbolic transformation/ simplification implementation, complex valued phase inconsistent substitutions are being used, which would otherwise be fine if restricted to real valued arguments. As as merely a guess.) === Subject: Re: hp49g+ (50g & 49g) EXPLN (and similar) trig-to-exp conversion command Matteo kirjoitti > Hello! > With hp49g+ and rom 2.14-2, try this (i is the imaginary unit): > > (RPL mode) > > 1) '1-i' ASIN ->NUM -------> 0.66-1.06*i > > 2) 'x' ASIN EXPLN EXPAND -------> '1/2*(2*i*LN(x+sqrt(x^2-1)) > +pi)' > 'x=1-i' SUBST ->NUM --------> 2.47+1.06*i > > Why are the two results different? > I've seen in the advanced user's reference manual for hp49g+ (edition > 1) at section E in the table trigonometric expansions that the > complex expression for ASIN(x) is '-i*LN(sqrt(1-x^2)+i*x)'. Hp49g+ > gives a different expression also using other command like LIN and > TSIMP. Maybe a complex argument for trig-to-exp conversion in not > allowed? > > Matteo cyclic functions, Matteo, cyclic functions do RE to both answers and add up what do you see? a familiar patterns of digits! === Subject: TOFF doesnt't work hp50 ROM 2.14-2 posting-account=mKa2TAoAAABpY_QhZNNgsQPs45Sg13EX Gecko/20081217 K-Meleon/1.5.2,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Hello My hp50 Rom 2.14-2 doesnt turn off automatically I store # 258000h in TOFF reserved variable (that is equivalent to 5 minutes) just like the manual says === Subject: Re: TOFF doesnt't work hp50 ROM 2.14-2 posting-account=mKa2TAoAAABpY_QhZNNgsQPs45Sg13EX Gecko/20081217 K-Meleon/1.5.2,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Hello > My hp50 Rom 2.14-2 doesnt turnoffautomatically > I store # 258000h in TOFF reserved variable > (that is equivalent to 5 minutes) > just like the manual says I was triying: I purged tOFF and STARTOFF vars and now my calc does turn off automatically so how STARTOFF works ? === Subject: Re: TOFF doesnt't work hp50 ROM 2.14-2 posting-account=5jQj0AoAAAAGAGJcqkkpunLMBpVi1N5o 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; InfoPath.2; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > > > Hello > > My hp50 Rom 2.14-2 doesnt turnoffautomatically > > I store # 258000h in TOFF reserved variable > > (that is equivalent to 5 minutes) > > just like the manual says > > I was triying: I purged tOFF and STARTOFF vars > and now my calc does turn off automatically > so how STARTOFF works ? Refer to these: http://forums11.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/questionanswer.do? http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv017.cgi?read=113197 Mark === Subject: Re: TOFF doesnt't work hp50 ROM 2.14-2 PremiumBlend kirjoitti > > > Hello > > My hp50 Rom 2.14-2 doesnt turnoffautomatically > > I store # 258000h in TOFF reserved variable > > (that is equivalent to 5 minutes) > > just like the manual says > > I was triying: I purged tOFF and STARTOFF vars > and now my calc does turn off automatically > so how STARTOFF works ? put OFF inside STARTOFF === Subject: Re: Floating Point Precision HP 49G+ posting-account=Q2CEjQoAAACue5ZDDhUeRzv1w0u8hxZE Gecko/20090305 Firefox/3.1b3 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Would the same be true of an EMU 49G+? ÊI know you get a choice > of original calculator speed or computer speed under 'options'. More accurately, the precision is determined by the HP math library. The saturn processor has 64bit registers which, amazingly, fit a 12 digit BCD encoded float with +/-499 mantissa. Imagine how surprising that was to the original designers back in the day. . . ;-) Since the same math library is still in use, the precision and results are the same. TW === Subject: Re: Floating Point Precision HP 49G+ posting-account=sOAX1QkAAAC-FcySTSbz29Uk8huUtFRz GTB5; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > M