A100



====
> COMO PODRIA HACER LO SIGUIENTE EN ML ??
>
> 1 2 3 4 -> 4 2 3 1
Sorry, I do not speak Spanish but this will do what you want.
It is quit a good example for ML, I think.
I reverses the stack order of any number of stack elements
( -> )
( ob1 ob2 ... obn -> obn ... ob2 ob1)
\CODE
SAVE
CD1EX
D1=C % point D1 and D0 to the Ŝrst stack level
D0=C
A=DAT0 A
?A=0 A -> EXIT % if 0 then no objects on stack
*TOP
D1+5 % point to next stack level
A=DAT1 A
?A#0 A -> TOP % do until top of stack
D1-5 % point to top stack level
*MAIN
A=DAT1 A % read highest object (level n)
C=DAT0 A % read lowest object (level 1)
DAT1=C A % swich them
DAT0=A A
D1-5 % point to level (n-1)
D0+5 % point to level 2
AD0EX
D0=A
CD1EX
D1=C
?A<C A -> MAIN % check if middle of stack is reached
*EXIT
LOADRPL % return to rpl
ENDCODE
@\
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
> I reverses the stack order of any number of stack elements
Wouldnıt it be simpler to do:
<< ->LIST REVLIST OBJ-> DROP >>
--
Ralf Kleineisel - Regionales Rechenzentrum Erlangen
Kommunikationssysteme
====
> Wouldnıt it be simpler to do:
> << ->LIST REVLIST OBJ-> DROP >>
This is very slow because all three involved
UsrRPL commands are particularly slow if the
size of stack reversion is high. It nearly never
pays to program this in ML since the following
SysRPL program with 3 commands is much shorter,
really fast and error protected, in addition.
::
CKN (check for sufŜciently many stack objects)
reversym (reverse stack order of meta-object)
UNCOERCE (regain the real or zint in Level 1)
;
The stack diagram of this program is
ob1 ... obn %n -> obn ... ob1 %n
Brieŝy speaking, it reverses a user-meta-object.
- Wolfgang
PS. reversym is itself a SysRPL-program and uses
the meta-object commands pshzer and psh1&rev.
====
>
> I reverses the stack order of any number of stack elements
>
> Wouldnıt it be simpler to do:
>
> << ->LIST REVLIST OBJ-> DROP >>
Yep but that wouldnıt be in ASM now, would it?
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
Peter Geelhoed schrieb:
>
>
>>Unfortunately I need the cumulative subtotals of the list,
not only the
>>total.
>>
>>But thanks anyway.
>
>
> Wou wonıt get rid of me that easily
>
> << DUP SIZE { } SWAP
> 1 SWAP
> FOR I
> OVER 1
> I SUB
> 0 +
> \\GSLIST +
> NEXT
> SWAP \\GSLIST
> /
>
>
> {1 2 3 4} -> {.1 .3 .6 1.}
>
> is that more like it?
>
>
>
> --
> This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
>
> Pivo
>
>
itıs me again. It works great. Any idea how to output the
subtotals ({1
2 3 4} -> {1 3 6 10} -> {.1 .3 .6 1.}) at the same time?
I tried several things but didnıt Ŝnd a good solution.
Georg.
====
> itıs me again. It works great. Any idea how to output the
subtotals ({1
> 2 3 4} -> {1 3 6 10} -> {.1 .3 .6 1.}) at the same time?
>
> I tried several things but didnıt Ŝnd a good solution.
>
of course: change the last SWAP to DUP ROT
<< DUP SIZE { } SWAP
1 SWAP
FOR I
OVER 1
I SUB
0 +
\\GSLIST +
NEXT
DUP ROT \\GSLIST
/ >>
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
Thatıs what Iıve been looking for.
Georg.
Peter Geelhoed schrieb:
>
>
>>Unfortunately I need the cumulative subtotals of the list,
not only the
>>total.
>>
>>But thanks anyway.
>
>
> Wou wonıt get rid of me that easily
>
> << DUP SIZE { } SWAP
> 1 SWAP
> FOR I
> OVER 1
> I SUB
> 0 +
> \\GSLIST +
> NEXT
> SWAP \\GSLIST
> /
>
>
> {1 2 3 4} -> {.1 .3 .6 1.}
>
> is that more like it?
>
>
>
> --
> This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
>
> Pivo
>
>
>
====
> Unfortunately I need the cumulative subtotals of the list,
not only the
> total.
\Cumulative subtotals\? Example please?
====
Can someone tell me if:
1. There was ever a rechargeable battery pack for the HP41
series ?
2. If, so, where can I get one?
Mark.
====
There is even a small detachable recharger plug cover
on the side of the HP 41-series calculator.
If you take out the batteries you push it out to the left.
> Can someone tell me if:
>
> 1. There was ever a rechargeable battery pack for the HP41
series ?
>
> 2. If, so, where can I get one?
>
>
> Mark.
>
>
====
please look there: http://www.internationalcalculator.com/
they have all you need for your HP 41 CX.
Please excuse me for my bad english.
Wolfgang Arhelger
\MR\ <mark@ringrose.demon.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Can someone tell me if:
>
> 1. There was ever a rechargeable battery pack for the HP41
series ?
>
> 2. If, so, where can I get one?
>
>
> Mark.
>
>
====
> Can someone tell me if:
>
> 1. There was ever a rechargeable battery pack for the HP41
series ?
>
> 2. If, so, where can I get one?
You might want to check at www.hpmuseum.org. Note that it has
\classiŜed ads\, sections on \Battery Packs & Chargers\ and
\Repairs \
&
Batteries\, and a searchable Forum with archive.
--
James
====
Iım not a 41 user, so I donıt know if you could use AA
rechargable \
batteries
with an external charger...
====
\R Lion\ <pitquim@NOSPAMyahoo.es> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> Iım not a 41 user, so I donıt know if you could use AA
rechargable
batteries
> with an external charger...
>
Yes, this works.
Back in 1981, I made my own recharger for this.
Raymond
====
>Can someone tell me if:
>
>1. There was ever a rechargeable battery pack for the HP41
series ?
>
>2. If, so, where can I get one?
>
>
>Mark.
>
1. Yes
2. I bought mine at the Penn State Book Store on Campus. (20
years ago)
Bill
alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please
(Use the obvious)
====
1. yes
2. good luck

be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net
====
\Baboo\ <pawlrevere2@aol.comoicurax> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> 1. yes
>
> 2. good luck
>
Nowadays theıre often offered on eBay;-)
Raymond
====
Help (please)
On Sunday my HP41CX stopped working - the display no longer
comes on when I
press the ON key. I have tested the batteries and battery
holder from the
non-working calculator in my other, working 41CX, so I know
that they are
OK. The things I have tried since Sunday, to no avail, are:
1. Installed new batteries
2. Checked voltage across batteries when in the battery
holder to make
sure
3. Gently scraped the contacts inside the battery compartment
- there \
was
some oxidisation on a couple of the contacts
4. Swapped battery holders with the working HP41CX
The calculator was Ŝne until I removed the battery pack on
Sunday after I
got a low battery level warning \BAT\ on the (now
non-working) HP-41CX.
Since then nothing I have done will make the calculator turn
on.
Is there anything else that should be part of a routine check
?
Mark.
====
\MR\ <mark@ringrose.demon.co.uk> meinte
>On Sunday my HP41CX stopped working - the display no longer
comes on when \
I
>press the ON key. I have tested the batteries and battery
holder from the
>non-working calculator in my other, working 41CX, so I know
that they are
>OK. The things I have tried since Sunday, to no avail, are:
>
>1. Installed new batteries
>2. Checked voltage across batteries when in the battery
holder to make
>sure
>3. Gently scraped the contacts inside the battery
compartment - there \
was
>some oxidisation on a couple of the contacts
>4. Swapped battery holders with the working HP41CX
>
>The calculator was Ŝne until I removed the battery pack on
Sunday after I
>got a low battery level warning \BAT\ on the (now
non-working) HP-41CX.
>Since then nothing I have done will make the calculator turn
on.
I recall that i had similar propblems with my hp41C on very
rare
occasion. At last I had always been successful with holding
down
backspace when switching on. Downside is \Memory Loss\.
Sometimes it
needed several attempts.
HTH
G\.9fnter
====
leave batteries out for an extended period, say 24 hours.
that way all the
power is drained.

be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net
====
Of what you hear believe nothing, of what you see only the
half. And
keep on hoping. ;-) (Old greek wisdom, or new greek crazyness
if you
like.)
Greetings,
Nick.
> **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com
****
>
>
> Somebody told me that in september, the new ROM was going
to be released. \
Is
> that true ? Iım eager for using the 1.19-7
>
> Bye.
> Leon.
>
>
>
>
>
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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====
This unveriŜed information is a rumor,
but in the summer 2003 your dreams will come true.
X
> Somebody told me that in september, the new ROM was going
to be
released. Is
> that true ? Iım eager for using the 1.19-7
====
**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****
2003 ?? Oh, my....... Iım taken aback.
Ok, Iıll go on dreaming. :-(
bye,
Leon.
> This unveriŜed information is a rumor,
> but in the summer 2003 your dreams will come true.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-=-=
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Planet! ***
http://www.usenet.com
Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups -
Uncensored
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=-=-=-=-=
====
> This unveriŜed information is a rumor,
> but in the summer 2003 your dreams will come true.
what??... 2003 ???
:o(
Guenpovi
====
Iım new to the 49, but Iıve been reading a lot about itıs
history. I
know that HP shut down itıs calculator development division,
and that
1.18 was the last ofŜcial Ŝrmware. Iıve upgraded to 1.19-6,
and so
far it looks great. Iım wondering who now \owns\ the 49
Ŝrmware code?
Is this the original code base from HP (1.18), or is it a
complete
rewrite? Are the original 49 developers still out there
(hpcalc.org,
Steve
====
> Iım new to the 49, but Iıve been reading a lot about itıs
history. I
> know that HP shut down itıs calculator development
division, and that
> 1.18 was the last ofŜcial Ŝrmware. Iıve upgraded to 1.19-6,
and so
> far it looks great. Iım wondering who now \owns\ the 49
Ŝrmware code?
> Is this the original code base from HP (1.18), or is it a
complete
> rewrite? Are the original 49 developers still out there
(hpcalc.org,
Itıs a bit of both.
The HP49 Ŝrmware is own by HP and license some part of it
(without owning
it) like :
The CAS (some is own by Bernard Parisse, and the rest by Mika
Heiskanen and
Claude-Nicolas Fechter)
Christian Bourgeois
====
>
> Iım new to the 49, but Iıve been reading a lot about itıs
history. I
> know that HP shut down itıs calculator development
division, and that
> 1.18 was the last ofŜcial Ŝrmware. Iıve upgraded to 1.19-6,
and so
> far it looks great. Iım wondering who now \owns\ the 49
Ŝrmware \
code?
> Is this the original code base from HP (1.18), or is it a
complete
> rewrite? Are the original 49 developers still out there
(hpcalc.org,
>
> Itıs a bit of both.
> The HP49 Ŝrmware is own by HP and license some part of it
(without \
owning
> it) like :
> The CAS (some is own by Bernard Parisse, and the rest by
Mika Heiskanen \
and
> Claude-Nicolas Fechter)
> Christian Bourgeois
>
And what about the rest of the Œintellectualı guts of the
machine? The
ROM and micro-code which does the unit conversions, the
multiplication/stack handling etc...?
Just curious...and wondering whether there is sufŜcient
material
Geoff
====
Perhaps somebody can be interested in little programs for the
15c (Iım \
sure,
easily portable to other models)
Sure they arenıt good programs from the point of view of a
programmer, but
theyıre small and do the work...
Triangle solver (sides-> angles&area) - 22 lines
Quadratic equation (real and complex solutions) - 25 lines
Entering statistic data with frequencies (traditional lack in
hp
calculators) - 23 lines
Z-ConŜdence interval for mean - 13 lines
Z-ConŜdence interval for proportion - 23 lines
(also, two little programs for sample size)
Binomial distribution - 19 lines
Iıve written two programs, Normal distribution and inverse
Normal
distribution, that actually I donıt use because their memory
and time
consuming.
smaller and/or quicker Iıll be happy if you send them to me.
====
How to I view a whole number with out the calc(49G) showing
it in \
scientiŜc
notation. For example I want to see the whole 15 digit number
for 2^50.
Jamie
====
Iım not sure what you want, but here we go:
1)
Check that [MODE] |CAS| _ Approx is un-checked.
The Header should show something like:
RAD XYZ HEX R= instead of R~
or
DEG R<< DEC C= instead of C~
depending on your other mode settings.
Note that there is a keyboard shortcut to change between ~/=
Hold down [Right-Shift] while pressing [ENTER]
or shortly: [RS]&[->NUM]
2a)
Do not use a decimal point in your integer calculations:
RPN: 2 50 [Y^x]
ALG: 2^50 [ENTER]
EQW: 2^50 [Up-Arrow] [UA] |EVAL| (on key [F4] )
2b)
You could use #binary integer with multiplication...
I hope this helped you.
> How to I view a whole number with out the calc(49G) showing
it in
scientiŜc
> notation. For example I want to see the whole 15 digit
number for 2^50.
>
> Jamie
>
>
====
I own both a HP49G and a TI83+. With the TI I can graph a
function, turn on
trace, and then enter a value for x and it tells me what y
is. How is this
done with the 49G?
====
> I own both a HP49G and a TI83+. With the TI I can graph a
function, turn \
on
> trace, and then enter a value for x and it tells me what y
is. How is \
this
> done with the 49G?
>
>
What Michael ask is how to know the Y value for X.
Once you have entered your equation, press VAR.
Input you value for X and use \F\ corresponding to your
function (Y1, Y2
..etc) and admire the result !
Matthias Lopez
====
When in graph mode press F3 \trac\ and use right and left
cursor to move
point.
ed
> I own both a HP49G and a TI83+. With the TI I can graph a
function, turn
on
> trace, and then enter a value for x and it tells me what y
is. How is \
this
> done with the 49G?
>
>
====
Back in 1980ıs there was an HP-41 module based on a book
called \Beat The
Racetrack\ by Dr William Ziemba (Dr. Z). Does anyone have one
that they \
want
to sell (in North America), or know of an HP-41 or HP-48
program to predict
winners of horse races?
====
http://www.watertightcase.com/3000series.html
it shpuld work
they are also sold in the UK
====
http://jewel.morgan.edu/~rcobo/cgg/hpcase.jpg
it is very strong. it can be locked with a padlock too.
> http://www.watertightcase.com/3000series.html
>
> it shpuld work
> they are also sold in the UK
>
====
Errk Itıs ugly. I prefer the real original HP48 one..
My 0.02?
--
Julien (Sunhp) Meyer
Lead Programmer of Jadeware (C) 1998/2002.
639cb51.0209032237.232588ce@posting.google.com...
> http://www.watertightcase.com/3000series.html
>
> it shpuld work
> they are also sold in the UK
>
====
I use a metallic school childrenıs pencil case to hold my
HPıs.
They Ŝt perfectly with a minimum of slack.
Some foam and even the Finnish post-ofŜce can not destroy my
HP.
> Errk Itıs ugly. I prefer the real original HP48 one..
>
> My 0.02?
> --
> Julien (Sunhp) Meyer
> Lead Programmer of Jadeware (C) 1998/2002.
>
> 639cb51.0209032237.232588ce@posting.google.com...
> http://www.watertightcase.com/3000series.html
>
> it shpuld work
> they are also sold in the UK
>
>
>
====
> I use a metallic school childrenıs pencil case to hold my
HPıs.
> They Ŝt perfectly with a minimum of slack.
> Some foam and even the Finnish post-ofŜce can not destroy
my HP.
yes, but it doesnıt ŝoat!
just kidding, he he.
the real test is in my school backpack. if it survives there,
then it
is made of good stuff.
====
Well, I got them (from PowerOn, 800-673-6227) yesterday.
The 39g is in the standard bubble pack.
The 49g just comes with a User Guide in a plastic bag
with no cable, warranty card, or anything else.
The serial number is ID 94701476 and the rom version is 1.10.
My next step is to try to install 19.6.
BTW, tax was $12.14 and shipping was $8.00,
for a total price for both of $128.13.
Martin Cohen
====
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top
\The Greek government has banned all electronic games across
the
country, including those that run on home computers, on Game
Boy-style
portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of
tourists in
Greece are unknowingly facing heavy Ŝnes or long terms in
prison for
owning mobile phones or portable video games.\
club is here to stay.
====
hitted the submit key twice. (Wrath!!!)
> http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top
>
> \The Greek government has banned all electronic games
across the
> country, including those that run on home computers, on
Game Boy-style
> portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of
tourists in
> Greece are unknowingly facing heavy Ŝnes or long terms in
prison for
> owning mobile phones or portable video games.\
I donıt know if I should lough or cry...Iıll do both.
First the cry with wrath against the idiots called
\politicians\ in
Greece. The word \you\ in the following paragraphs is
directly aimed
to those idiots.
- You, the higher ups politicians in Greece who continue
ignoring
human rights, decided to protect people by banning computer
games this
time, instead of banning the misery in education and
corruption.
Perhaps because the latter would mean that you would bann
yourselfs.
One could have understanding if you have decided banning
games that
deal with violence and killing, though this would be also
very short
sighted, because the reasons for playing such games are
burried much
much deeper than the surface that you, the ignorants, just
scratch.
Remember, when you decide against the will of people next
time, you
were (unfortunately) born in Greece, the land where direct
democracy
was also born. No Greek, including you the idiots, has the
right to
put such a dirt on the only things that we, greeks, have to
rely on
and be proud of. We donıt possess the millions that you have
eaten up
in your political carrier, we donıt have the luxury that you
live in,
thieving and lying all your lives. The only thing that we
have is the
knowledge of what Greece has given to the world. Exactly
those ideals
that you shamelessly f**cked up beyond recognition.
In addition:
\Der Mensch spielt nur, wo er in voller Bedeutung des Wortes
Mensch
ist, und er ist nur da ganz Mensch, wo er spielt.\
---------Friedrich von Schiller
Trans: \A human plays only there, where he/she is human in
the whole
sence of the word. And he/she is only there totally human,
where
he/she plays.\
You politicians ignored one more time the
political/historical present
that was given to the world by the Greeks without ever asking
anything
to return. But not only this. You also ignored the just this
\being
human in the whole sence of the word\. And you did this in a
place
where the dream of life was dreamed in one of its most
beautiful
version.
Still in addition:
-Playing computer games results in programming better ones,
and to
program better games is one of the things that push inovation
to
higher degrees. Only ignorants would want to prevent the
people from
thinking about new algorithms and new methods for
programming. You,
the ignorants who live permanently outside any development in
our
world, want to prevent inovation and thinking? Go on, you are
not
going to change anything for the better.
Still, still in addition:
-When next summer the number of tourists in Greece goes
towards 0,
youıll have to change your \law\ again. Or have a small
revolution of
all people who earn for living from tourism. And greek
revolutions are
*not* that peaceful at all. ;-)
And now the lough with sarcasm taken to the endth degree.
\You\ means
again the political idiots in Greece.
- You so called \politicians\ in Greece, have totally lost
the contact
to your own people and the contact to everyday life. Do you
really
think that forbidding games will prevent anybody, especially
the
youngsters, playing games? Didnıt you idiots notice that
ignoring a
Greek, just has the result of having him ignoring you ten
times more?
Do you want to have one more law that nobody cares about?
Dinıt you
notice that kids go their own ways, and if you push too hard,
they do
things they wouldnıt do otherwise? Do you really think that
anybody in
Greece would just take that command of yours and act
accordingly only
because you can stand a couple of steps higher and shout
about your
political \efforts\? Hunderds of years in slavery were not
enough to
let the wish of Greeks for freedom vanish. Do you think that
you are
going to manage doing that in a few days? If you do, and it
seems like
you do, then youıre going to get very very very bad news. We
have
withstanded much harder situations. We only have a tired
smile for
you, the wannabe patriarchs. You *will* dance to our rhythm,
sooner or
later.
> club is here to stay.
You bet it is. I never programmed games for the calcs but now
perhaps
Iıll do and Iıll send them to any friend in Greece that has
an HP.
Mwahahahahaaa, they want criminals? Theyıre gonna get them!
Gamings,
Nick.
P.S:
\Es ist, als ob unsere Zivilisation den Anblick des
Spielenden nicht
mehr ertragen k\.9anne, weil sie in seinem zweckfreien Tun
eine Form der
Freiheit wittert, die ihr Konzept st\.9art.\
-----Friedrich Sieburg
Trans: \It is as if our civilization can no more stand the
sight of a
playing human, because this civilization smells a form of
freedom in
the purposeless doing of a game, that disturbs the very
concepts of
the civilization.
====
> I donıt know if I should lough or cry...Iıll do both.
he, he. iıll join you.
> First the cry with wrath against the idiots called
\politicians\ in
> Greece. The word \you\ in the following paragraphs is
directly aimed
> to those idiots.
wherever you go, you Ŝnd more or less the same. sometimes
(like here)
they get away with stuff like this (but not for too long).
> - You, the higher ups politicians in Greece who continue
ignoring
> human rights, decided to protect people by banning computer
games this
> time, instead of banning the misery in education and
corruption.
> Perhaps because the latter would mean that you would bann
yourselfs.
> One could have understanding if you have decided banning
games that
> deal with violence and killing, though this would be also
very short
> sighted, because the reasons for playing such games are
burried much
> much deeper than the surface that you, the ignorants, just
scratch.
> Remember, when you decide against the will of people next
time, you
> were (unfortunately) born in Greece, the land where direct
democracy
> was also born. No Greek, including you the idiots, has the
right to
> put such a dirt on the only things that we, greeks, have to
rely on
> and be proud of. We donıt possess the millions that you
have eaten up
> in your political carrier, we donıt have the luxury that
you live in,
> thieving and lying all your lives. The only thing that we
have is the
> knowledge of what Greece has given to the world. Exactly
those ideals
> that you shamelessly f**cked up beyond recognition.
>
> In addition:
> \Der Mensch spielt nur, wo er in voller Bedeutung des
Wortes Mensch
> ist, und er ist nur da ganz Mensch, wo er spielt.\
> ---------Friedrich von Schiller
> Trans: \A human plays only there, where he/she is human in
the whole
> sence of the word. And he/she is only there totally human,
where
> he/she plays.\
> You politicians ignored one more time the
political/historical present
> that was given to the world by the Greeks without ever
asking anything
> to return. But not only this. You also ignored the just
this \being
> human in the whole sence of the word\. And you did this in
a place
> where the dream of life was dreamed in one of its most
beautiful
> version.
>
> Still in addition:
> -Playing computer games results in programming better ones,
and to
> program better games is one of the things that push
inovation to
> higher degrees. Only ignorants would want to prevent the
people from
> thinking about new algorithms and new methods for
programming. You,
> the ignorants who live permanently outside any development
in our
> world, want to prevent inovation and thinking? Go on, you
are not
> going to change anything for the better.
>
> Still, still in addition:
> -When next summer the number of tourists in Greece goes
towards 0,
> youıll have to change your \law\ again. Or have a small
revolution of
> all people who earn for living from tourism. And greek
revolutions are
> *not* that peaceful at all. ;-)
>
>
> And now the lough with sarcasm taken to the endth degree.
\You\ means
> again the political idiots in Greece.
>
> - You so called \politicians\ in Greece, have totally lost
the contact
> to your own people and the contact to everyday life. Do you
really
> think that forbidding games will prevent anybody,
especially the
> youngsters, playing games? Didnıt you idiots notice that
ignoring a
> Greek, just has the result of having him ignoring you ten
times more?
> Do you want to have one more law that nobody cares about?
Dinıt you
> notice that kids go their own ways, and if you push too
hard, they do
> things they wouldnıt do otherwise? Do you really think that
anybody in
> Greece would just take that command of yours and act
accordingly only
> because you can stand a couple of steps higher and shout
about your
> political \efforts\? Hunderds of years in slavery were not
enough to
> let the wish of Greeks for freedom vanish. Do you think
that you are
> going to manage doing that in a few days? If you do, and it
seems like
> you do, then youıre going to get very very very bad news.
We have
> withstanded much harder situations. We only have a tired
smile for
> you, the wannabe patriarchs. You *will* dance to our
rhythm, sooner or
> later.
>
> club is here to stay.
>
> You bet it is. I never programmed games for the calcs but
now perhaps
> Iıll do and Iıll send them to any friend in Greece that has
an HP.
> Mwahahahahaaa, they want criminals? Theyıre gonna get them!
the NK revenge! ( add me too the team )
hey. one Greek student could make a security program in the
HP49G so
that only he could access the Ŝle system and the games (with
password) :) if they get the HP49G, just play dummy (or make
stealh
games that do not show up on Ŝle system). if the Greek gov
wants to
Ŝnd out they would have to post a message here to try to
Ŝgure it
out he, he. he could load it to hpcalc as a historical
program (the
2002 Greek revolution).
> Gamings,
> Nick.
>
> P.S:
> \Es ist, als ob unsere Zivilisation den Anblick des
Spielenden nicht
> mehr ertragen k\.9anne, weil sie in seinem zweckfreien Tun
eine Form der
> Freiheit wittert, die ihr Konzept st\.9art.\
>
> -----Friedrich Sieburg
>
> Trans: \It is as if our civilization can no more stand the
sight of a
> playing human, because this civilization smells a form of
freedom in
> the purposeless doing of a game, that disturbs the very
concepts of
> the civilization.
Greekings.
====
>
> I donıt know if I should lough or cry...Iıll do both.
>
> he, he. iıll join you.
>
>
> First the cry with wrath against the idiots called
\politicians\ in
> Greece. The word \you\ in the following paragraphs is
directly aimed
> to those idiots.
>
> wherever you go, you Ŝnd more or less the same. sometimes
(like here)
> they get away with stuff like this (but not for too long).
>
But Newsweek has already rated it to be even dirter than the
Belousconi-Government. I mean, can you imagine what could be
even
dirtier? I thought that he and his team were the top of all
possible
corruption, as they have all power in their hands. (They even
sell out
old Roman culture.) But no! The Greek government proved me
wrong. It
is possible to be even more corrupted. How much corruption is
necessary to outperfome Belousconi? For heavenıs sake!
> club is here to stay.
>
> You bet it is. I never programmed games for the calcs but
now perhaps
> Iıll do and Iıll send them to any friend in Greece that has
an HP.
> Mwahahahahaaa, they want criminals? Theyıre gonna get them!
>
> the NK revenge! ( add me too the team )
OK! The highly explosive kernel of the team has just taken
form. :-)
> hey. one Greek student could make a security program in the
HP49G so
> that only he could access the Ŝle system and the games (with
> password) :)
Yes, but a password with greek letters. Or perhaps chinese?
;-)
>if they get the HP49G, just play dummy (or make stealh
> games that do not show up on Ŝle system). if the Greek gov
wants to
> Ŝnd out they would have to post a message here to try to
Ŝgure it
> out he, he. he could load it to hpcalc as a historical
program (the
> 2002 Greek revolution).
Yeah, and then make a program that detects the presence of
greek gov
members and sends the Trabakoulas-Virus to their calcs.
For those about to play, I salute you,
Nick.
====
I think you might have missed the point. Grece has a huge
problem with
gambeling and money machines (ie: these casino electronic
games stuff), and
they declared that 1: they are not able to distinguish
between video game
and gambeling games and 2) that peoples are using normal
video games for
gambeling purposes... This is why they descided to ban every
game... a
little like the prohibition in the US, because peoples could
get drunk with
any type of alcohol, they even banned wine! how shamefull!
> hitted the submit key twice. (Wrath!!!)
>
> http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top
>
> \The Greek government has banned all electronic games
across the
> country, including those that run on home computers, on
Game Boy-style
> portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of
tourists in
> Greece are unknowingly facing heavy Ŝnes or long terms in
prison for
> owning mobile phones or portable video games.\
>
> I donıt know if I should lough or cry...Iıll do both.
>
> First the cry with wrath against the idiots called
\politicians\ in
> Greece. The word \you\ in the following paragraphs is
directly aimed
> to those idiots.
>
> - You, the higher ups politicians in Greece who continue
ignoring
> human rights, decided to protect people by banning computer
games this
> time, instead of banning the misery in education and
corruption.
> Perhaps because the latter would mean that you would bann
yourselfs.
> One could have understanding if you have decided banning
games that
> deal with violence and killing, though this would be also
very short
> sighted, because the reasons for playing such games are
burried much
> much deeper than the surface that you, the ignorants, just
scratch.
> Remember, when you decide against the will of people next
time, you
> were (unfortunately) born in Greece, the land where direct
democracy
> was also born. No Greek, including you the idiots, has the
right to
> put such a dirt on the only things that we, greeks, have to
rely on
> and be proud of. We donıt possess the millions that you
have eaten up
> in your political carrier, we donıt have the luxury that
you live in,
> thieving and lying all your lives. The only thing that we
have is the
> knowledge of what Greece has given to the world. Exactly
those ideals
> that you shamelessly f**cked up beyond recognition.
>
> In addition:
> \Der Mensch spielt nur, wo er in voller Bedeutung des
Wortes Mensch
> ist, und er ist nur da ganz Mensch, wo er spielt.\
> ---------Friedrich von Schiller
> Trans: \A human plays only there, where he/she is human in
the whole
> sence of the word. And he/she is only there totally human,
where
> he/she plays.\
> You politicians ignored one more time the
political/historical present
> that was given to the world by the Greeks without ever
asking anything
> to return. But not only this. You also ignored the just
this \being
> human in the whole sence of the word\. And you did this in
a place
> where the dream of life was dreamed in one of its most
beautiful
> version.
>
> Still in addition:
> -Playing computer games results in programming better ones,
and to
> program better games is one of the things that push
inovation to
> higher degrees. Only ignorants would want to prevent the
people from
> thinking about new algorithms and new methods for
programming. You,
> the ignorants who live permanently outside any development
in our
> world, want to prevent inovation and thinking? Go on, you
are not
> going to change anything for the better.
>
> Still, still in addition:
> -When next summer the number of tourists in Greece goes
towards 0,
> youıll have to change your \law\ again. Or have a small
revolution of
> all people who earn for living from tourism. And greek
revolutions are
> *not* that peaceful at all. ;-)
>
>
> And now the lough with sarcasm taken to the endth degree.
\You\ means
> again the political idiots in Greece.
>
> - You so called \politicians\ in Greece, have totally lost
the contact
> to your own people and the contact to everyday life. Do you
really
> think that forbidding games will prevent anybody,
especially the
> youngsters, playing games? Didnıt you idiots notice that
ignoring a
> Greek, just has the result of having him ignoring you ten
times more?
> Do you want to have one more law that nobody cares about?
Dinıt you
> notice that kids go their own ways, and if you push too
hard, they do
> things they wouldnıt do otherwise? Do you really think that
anybody in
> Greece would just take that command of yours and act
accordingly only
> because you can stand a couple of steps higher and shout
about your
> political \efforts\? Hunderds of years in slavery were not
enough to
> let the wish of Greeks for freedom vanish. Do you think
that you are
> going to manage doing that in a few days? If you do, and it
seems like
> you do, then youıre going to get very very very bad news.
We have
> withstanded much harder situations. We only have a tired
smile for
> you, the wannabe patriarchs. You *will* dance to our
rhythm, sooner or
> later.
>
> club is here to stay.
>
> You bet it is. I never programmed games for the calcs but
now perhaps
> Iıll do and Iıll send them to any friend in Greece that has
an HP.
> Mwahahahahaaa, they want criminals? Theyıre gonna get them!
>
> Gamings,
> Nick.
>
> P.S:
> \Es ist, als ob unsere Zivilisation den Anblick des
Spielenden nicht
> mehr ertragen k\.9anne, weil sie in seinem zweckfreien Tun
eine Form der
> Freiheit wittert, die ihr Konzept st\.9art.\
>
> -----Friedrich Sieburg
>
> Trans: \It is as if our civilization can no more stand the
sight of a
> playing human, because this civilization smells a form of
freedom in
> the purposeless doing of a game, that disturbs the very
concepts of
> the civilization.
====
>
> I think you might have missed the point. Grece has a huge
problem with
> gambeling and money machines (ie: these casino electronic
games stuff), \
and
> they declared that 1: they are not able to distinguish
between video game
> and gambeling games and 2) that peoples are using normal
video games for
> gambeling purposes... This is why they descided to ban
every game... a
> little like the prohibition in the US, because peoples
could get drunk \
with
> any type of alcohol, they even banned wine! how shamefull!
>
>
and for the Greek Government. But, on the one hand even if
the amount
of money being spent for games is so huge, hey! Itıs *the
peopleıs*
money. If they want, theyıll should be able to throw that out
of the
window. And on the other hand, nobody in the government seems
to care
that an even bigger amount of money gets \lost\ in the
pockets of our
politicians. And as you say, such \prohibitions\ have always
done
exactly the opposite than that that was intended. Our
\politicians\
should have sufŜcient knowledge of history to know that. But
what can
you expect when the highest positions in Greek government are
occupied
by the least educated?
Greetings,
Nick.
====
> and for the Greek Government. But, on the one hand even if
the amount
> of money being spent for games is so huge, hey! Itıs *the
peopleıs*
> money. If they want, theyıll should be able to throw that
out of the
> window.
Well, I have to disegree with that..
You have your normal gambelers, and these ones should be
allow to keep \
doing
so, but you have also the Œdruggedı ones, the ones that can
not stop, and
they are throwing their familly money away, resulting in
devastation of the
familly, lake of education, food and all the rest, and you
also have even
worst cases of lost of responsability, a couple of years ago
in australia, \
a
women went for a Œquikyı and left out the one handed bandit a
couple of
hours later, handcuffed! she had just Œforgotı her 1 year old
daughter to
bake in the car with an outside temperature of over 40! \
and this should not
be allowed!
====
>
> and for the Greek Government. But, on the one hand even if
the amount
> of money being spent for games is so huge, hey! Itıs *the
peopleıs*
> money. If they want, theyıll should be able to throw that
out of the
> window.
>
> Well, I have to disegree with that..
Yeah, and thatıs good. Disagreement and discussion, the main
reasons
for creation of new things :-)
> You have your normal gambelers, and these ones should be
allow to keep \
doing
> so, but you have also the Œdruggedı ones, the ones that can
not stop, and
> they are throwing their familly money away, resulting in
devastation of \
the
> familly, lake of education, food and all the rest, and you
also have even
> worst cases of lost of responsability, a couple of years
ago in australia, \
a
> women went for a Œquikyı and left out the one handed bandit
a couple of
> hours later, handcuffed! she had just Œforgotı her 1 year
old daughter to
> bake in the car with an outside temperature of over 40! \
and this should not
> be allowed!
>
But Cyrille, Ŝrst of all, who decides what is a \normal
gabler\? The
government who still gambles with the lifes of millions of
people? The
common mind? The laws? In other words, whoıs gonna control the
controllers?
In addition: In your example the bad thing was not that that
woman
played. The bad thing was that she forgot her daughter.
Thatıs two
different pairs of shoes. If she had only played, for hours
for weeks,
even for years, but without hurting anybody, except perhaps
herself,
then nobody on this world would have the right to say
anything bad
about her, any even less to punish her for the game. One
could try in
this hypothetical case to help her, driven by human sympathy
but to
punish her because she just lose her whole money in games,
well,
thatıs too much for me.
Anyway, keep on disagreeing. Or esle we have all one opinion,
and that
will be (for me) the end of life. (You do your best to keep
my alive,
it seems ;-)
Greetings,
Nick.
Reply-To: \Veli-Pekka Nousiainen\ <DROP_vpn@welho.com>
====
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2122118,00.html
Ahhhh !!!
The Greeks are indeed incompatible with Greeks!
====
> http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2122118,00.html
> Ahhhh !!!
> The Greeks are indeed incompatible with Greeks!
It would be easier to count what the Greeks are compatible
with. The
sequence of such things that Greeks are compatible to, breaks
at n=0.
;-)
A text passage from the above link:
\Nobody from the members of the parliament realised or could
foresee
the effects that this would have for PC games, Internet games
and game
consoles, simply because they are not familiar with that side
of
technology\
Now imagine what idiots are in our gov, when they didnıt even
realized
what computer and communication technology means in our days.
These
ignorants have the fate of approx. 10 millions people in
their hands.
WAKE UP GREEK POLITICIANS, WE LIVE IN 2002!!!!
Nick.
====
> they are throwing their familly money away, resulting in
devastation of
the
> familly, lake of education, food and all the rest, and you
also have even
> worst cases of lost of responsability, a couple of years
ago in \
australia,
a
> women went for a Œquikyı and left out the one handed bandit
a couple of
> hours later, handcuffed! she had just Œforgotı her 1 year
old daughter to
> bake in the car with an outside temperature of over 40! \
and this should
not
> be allowed!
but this is not allowed already, why do you think she
ended-up handcuffed ?
You have to stop thinking that the government should act as
the ultimate
authority and the father of all, showing the guidance to its
people. There
are limits that must be followed.
If you always assume that what the government is doing is for
your own good
and that you should follow him blindly, you end-up like in
pre-WW2 and Nazi
Germany with a whole population following blindly because
some highly \
placed
morons said so.
Banning has NEVER been a solution and has never solved a
problem (and there
are hundreds of examples).
There are many ways to stop this kind of extreme examples to
happen. For
example, gambling companies could be held liable if anybody
becomes \
addicted
to their services and commit a crime by negligence.
You may dislike gambling (and I do too), but banning it will
just make
need of people to gamble.
And remember also that no laws can prevent human stupidity.
You also seem to give too much credit to the Greek
government. The fact \
that
they passed a law to ban any games as little to do with their
will to help
people and make them stop gambling. All they wanted to
achieve was to stop
secure and reliable way for a government to make money easily
(like legal
gambling) and you will see if this (supposed to be) so kind
government will
ban it.
====
There are always idiots in any society and people who should
have been
sterilised rather than allowing them to have children. Just
because she
happened to choose this particular method to abuse her
children is a
condemnation of her not of the method. Should we ban alcohol
because a
few people become alcoholics?
>
>
>>they are throwing their familly money away, resulting in
devastation of
>>
> the
>
>>familly, lake of education, food and all the rest, and you
also have even
>>worst cases of lost of responsability, a couple of years
ago in \
australia,
>>
> a
>
>>women went for a Œquikyı and left out the one handed bandit
a couple of
>>hours later, handcuffed! she had just Œforgotı her 1 year
old daughter to
>>bake in the car with an outside temperature of over 40! \
and this should
>>
> not
>
>>be allowed!
>>
>
> but this is not allowed already, why do you think she
ended-up handcuffed \
?
>
> You have to stop thinking that the government should act as
the ultimate
> authority and the father of all, showing the guidance to
its people. \
There
> are limits that must be followed.
> If you always assume that what the government is doing is
for your own \
good
> and that you should follow him blindly, you end-up like in
pre-WW2 and \
Nazi
> Germany with a whole population following blindly because
some highly \
placed
> morons said so.
>
> Banning has NEVER been a solution and has never solved a
problem (and \
there
> are hundreds of examples).
> There are many ways to stop this kind of extreme examples
to happen. For
> example, gambling companies could be held liable if anybody
becomes \
addicted
> to their services and commit a crime by negligence.
> You may dislike gambling (and I do too), but banning it
will just make
> need of people to gamble.
>
> And remember also that no laws can prevent human stupidity.
>
> You also seem to give too much credit to the Greek
government. The fact \
that
> they passed a law to ban any games as little to do with
their will to \
help
> people and make them stop gambling. All they wanted to
achieve was to \
stop
> secure and reliable way for a government to make money
easily (like legal
> gambling) and you will see if this (supposed to be) so kind
government \
will
> ban it.
>
>
>
>
====
> Should we ban alcohol because a
> few people become alcoholics?
Or ban cars, because they unfortunately quite often are in
the hands of
irresponsible people, who are a huge danger, not only to
themselves, but
also to other people and their property - not to talk about
the economical
strain they put on a society.
No, banning is rarely the right choice...
====
> Or ban cars, because they unfortunately quite often are in
the hands of
> irresponsible people, who are a huge danger, not only to
themselves, but
As of today, I would vote that we ban doors as well after one
nastily tried
to crunch my hand.
Obviously, if doors (and probably windows too) didnıt exist
such accident
wouldnıt happen.
It would also drop the \break-in robbery\ counts by a
signiŜcant factor \
as
there would be nothing to break anymore to get in.
Plastic bags should also be ban, you can suffocate if you put
one on top of
your head. Sure you usually see signs and notes saying that a
plastic bag \
is
not a toy, but how is a 4 years old child going to read the
warnings if he
canıt read ?
Baseball bat should be ban, it seems that in the US more and
more people
(including 13 and 14 year old kids) are using them to beat to
death their
abusing father.
\The world is a huge playground for idiots\
====
> \The world is a huge playground for idiots\
Yes, and it gets quite dangerous when they decide to do
serious work ;-)
Greetings,
Nick.
====
> Should we ban alcohol because a
> few people become alcoholics?
>
> Or ban cars, because they unfortunately quite often are in
the hands of
> irresponsible people, who are a huge danger, not only to
themselves, but
> also to other people and their property - not to talk about
the \
economical
> strain they put on a society.
>
> No, banning is rarely the right choice...
>
I think smoking should be banned...
This way, people who smoke will pay a lot for bad quality
cigarettes, so \
they will
die poorer and younger and at last Iıll be able to enjoy a
walk without \
losing a
lung.
Hey, Iım in superb form, tonight!
Seriously, now, and more on topic, whatıs the status of HP48
in 49 in \
Greece, since
thereıs heaps of games for them?
Gerald.
====
>>>Should we ban alcohol because a
>>>few people become alcoholics?
>>>
>>
>>No, banning is rarely the right choice...
>>
> I think smoking should be banned...
> This way, people who smoke will pay a lot for bad quality
cigarettes, so \
they will
> die poorer and younger and at last Iıll be able to enjoy a
walk without \
losing a
> lung.
I donıt think weıre going to have to ban cigarettes. There
was a
(by someone whoıs opinion counts) that a case could be made
for the
companies to be charged with multiple counts of murder. The
premise
being that they are now being legally judged responsible and
they didnıt
have any less information 20 years ago and so, legally,
theyıve been
continuing to supply a substance that they knew was deadly.
Considering
there have been 800,000 deaths in Australia alone since 1950
and
continue at 50/day, that makes a lot of murder indictments.
====
>>>Should we ban alcohol because a
>>>few people become alcoholics?
Yes, because *I* donıt drink
> I think smoking should be banned...
Yes, because, _I_ donıt smoke
Games?
Yes, because I donıt play (that often)
Cars?
Yes, because I donıt own one
BUT
seriously folks:
that is put in to the users upper lip.
You may still buy it from Sweden or from tax-free shops
on air-ports or on ships
They should have done the opposite!
Why?
Cigar/Cigarette smoke goes to other persons lungs, too.
Thatıs the only thing that I would ban and with a reason!
Veli-Pekka
====
>
> I think you might have missed the point. Grece has a huge
problem with
> gambeling and money machines (ie: these casino electronic
games stuff),
and
> they declared that 1: they are not able to distinguish
between video game
> and gambeling games and 2) that peoples are using normal
video games for
> gambeling purposes... This is why they descided to ban
every game... a
> little like the prohibition in the US, because peoples
could get drunk
with
> any type of alcohol, they even banned wine! how shamefull!
How come on!... How can it be ever possible to justify such a
dumb law. Did
the prohibition achieved anything ? It was a period of crime
at its peak.
This is not just gaming, itıs part of education. Are you
telling me that \
all
Game is part of education, itıs the best way to learn and it
probably the
way people have been learning from the beginning of human
kind.
Why do you think teachers are always trying to make what they
are teaching
\FUN?\ because thatıs the only way a kid will ever learn.
I doubt this law will stay forever, itıs the most stupid
thing I have EVER
heard (except maybe each time Mr G. W. Bush open its mouth)
====
> How come on!... How can it be ever possible to justify such
a dumb law. \
Did
> the prohibition achieved anything ? It was a period of
crime at its peak.
I wonder why!? But actually, prohibition *did* reduce the
overall
consumption of alcohol in the US by a LOT. It did what it was
designed to do.. but it also had some undesired side
effects.. which
Iım guessing is a big part of why they got rid of it!
> This is not just gaming, itıs part of education. Are you
telling me that \
all
> Game is part of education, itıs the best way to learn and
it probably the
> way people have been learning from the beginning of human
kind.
> Why do you think teachers are always trying to make what
they are \
teaching
> \FUN?\ because thatıs the only way a kid will ever learn.
Youıd have to imagine what they were trying to accomplish was
something different than what it ended up being. It seems
like one of
those \punish all for the crimes of a few\. It was the same
thing
that happened in the United States with prohibition.. of
course it was
also part of a religous movement at the time that ended up
taking
things to an extreme. I think this falls in the category:
\ideas that
have good intent but dont turn out that way because they are
simlpy
impractical.\
> I doubt this law will stay forever, itıs the most stupid
thing I have \
EVER
> heard
Iıve heard more stupid things, but Iıd tend to agree with
you. I
wonder if \games\ also includes \competitions\ such as the
Olympic
\games\. Imagine if Greece no longer participated in the
Olympics..
wouldnıt that be the ultimate irony!?
Aaron
====
>
>
> I think you might have missed the point. Grece has a huge
problem with
> gambeling and money machines (ie: these casino electronic
games stuff),
> and
> they declared that 1: they are not able to distinguish
between video \
game
> and gambeling games and 2) that peoples are using normal
video games \
for
> gambeling purposes... This is why they descided to ban
every game... a
> little like the prohibition in the US, because peoples
could get drunk
> with
> any type of alcohol, they even banned wine! how shamefull!
>
> How come on!... How can it be ever possible to justify such
a dumb law. \
Did
> the prohibition achieved anything ? It was a period of
crime at its peak.
Yep!
> This is not just gaming, itıs part of education. Are you
telling me that \
all
> Game is part of education, itıs the best way to learn and
it probably the
> way people have been learning from the beginning of human
kind.
> Why do you think teachers are always trying to make what
they are \
teaching
> \FUN?\ because thatıs the only way a kid will ever learn.
Exactly!
> I doubt this law will stay forever, itıs the most stupid
thing I have \
EVER
> heard (except maybe each time Mr G. W. Bush open its mouth)
Mon capitaine!
With all my respect I may disagree with you about Mr. Bush
being able
to outperform the stupidity of our government. After all we
must have
something in Greece that keeps the world record. Even if this
something is the most dumb laws in the whole universe! ;-)
(Believe me there are much more laws of this kind in Greece)
Greetings,
Nick.
====
Iıve many Greek customers who bought me our computer games at
Jadeware, \
what
about if they canıt play it anymore ?
Totally stupid law, I hate about this..
--
Julien (Sunhp) Meyer
Lead Programmer of Jadeware (C) 1998/2002.
639cb51.0209041204.f6b77a5@posting.google.com...
> http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top
>
> \The Greek government has banned all electronic games
across the
> country, including those that run on home computers, on
Game Boy-style
> portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of
tourists in
> Greece are unknowingly facing heavy Ŝnes or long terms in
prison for
> owning mobile phones or portable video games.\
>
> club is here to stay.
====
> Iıve many Greek customers who bought me our computer games
at Jadeware, \
what
> about if they canıt play it anymore ?
> Totally stupid law, I hate about this..
Stupid politicians just canıt make any intelligent laws.
Gamings,
Nick.
====
I hate games on a business computer and I always
remove them from my employers Windows system
with one exception: Eiffel Oy bought me a Philips Velo
(I asked for a HP 320) and the Solitaire was in ROM !
Iım glad that Iım not in any country with stupid laws
possessing my current HP Jornada 720
(which also comes with Solitaire in ROM)
OR
with a HP 48GX with a MINEHUNT in ROM....
BUT
I guess I would be safe if I donıt play it publicly
;-)
Wanna bet on which one of us is the better in
Solitaire/MINEHUNT, Nick ??
PS: The Greeks are incompatible even with Greeks ;-)
> http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top
>
> \The Greek government has banned all electronic games
across the
> country, including those that run on home computers, on
Game Boy-style
> portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of
tourists in
> Greece are unknowingly facing heavy Ŝnes or long terms in
prison for
> owning mobile phones or portable video games.\
>
> club is here to stay.
====
>> I hate games on a business computer and I always
>> remove them from my employers Windows system
>> with one exception: Eiffel Oy bought me a Philips Velo
>> (I asked for a HP 320) and the Solitaire was in ROM !
You poor guy! Greek laws made a criminal out of you ;-)
>> Iım glad that Iım not in any country with stupid laws
>> possessing my current HP Jornada 720
>> (which also comes with Solitaire in ROM)
>> OR
>> with a HP 48GX with a MINEHUNT in ROM....
>> BUT
Oh no! I also have the 48GX. And the 49G with its tetris.
What am I
gonna do? Help! Iım scared to death ;-)
>> I guess I would be safe if I donıt play it publicly
>> ;-)
Perhaps they already wired each and every house and they are
watching
us, while we play? Let me see. Whatıs that under the phone?
Oh no, a
micro camera and a transmitter. They caught me! ;-)
> Wanna bet on which one of us is the better in
> Solitaire/MINEHUNT, Nick ??
Hahaha! I donıt have half a chance. I play so incompatible
that the
programs crash. But letıs go for a competition. How can we do
that?
And how can many many others participate? And of course, you
let me
win and I send the (signed) tetris diploma to every
politician in
Greece along with many greekkings, this time I hope from
everyone out
there.
> PS: The Greeks are incompatible even with Greeks ;-)
Now you understood us. Thatıs why we have 10 millions Greeks
and 20
millions political parties in Greece. Phenomenon also know as
\political inŝation\ or, as Harry Klinn, a greek comedian
said: \How
comes that so few people, in such a small country, in such a
short
time, have managed to do so big stupidities?\ Each Greek
seems to be
most incompatible with his/herself, though the degree of
incompatibility to anything else except the own self is
already in
unbelievable high degrees. (Trabakoulas does math, in order
to forget
about the steady contradiction with anything.) ;-)
> http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top
>
> \The Greek government has banned all electronic games
across the
> country, including those that run on home computers, on
Game Boy-style
> portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of
tourists in
> Greece are unknowingly facing heavy Ŝnes or long terms in
prison for
> owning mobile phones or portable video games.\
>
> club is here to stay.
Gamings,
Nick.
P.S: Come on people, play more! Let the machines fume and
smoke!
====
>
>> I hate games on a business computer and I always
>> remove them from my employers Windows system
>> with one exception: Eiffel Oy bought me a Philips Velo
>> (I asked for a HP 320) and the Solitaire was in ROM !
>
> You poor guy! Greek laws made a criminal out of you ;-)
Are the new greek laws in accordance with
European laws? I bet one could argue something
like that at a European court
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
>...
>Are the new greek laws in accordance with
>European laws? I bet one could argue something
>like that at a European court
>...
Thatıs exactly the point I have discussed with a colleague
yesterday.
integrated in its Ŝrmware. So, many mobile phone
manufacturers are
handicapped with Greece, since they either canıt sell anymore
their
phones, or they are forced to rewrite the Ŝrmware especially
for Greece.
Sooner or later some European Court will outlaw this law fur
sure.
-------------------------------------------------------------
------------
Ralf Fritzsch
Bundesanstalt fuer Wasserbau Federal Waterways Engineering
and Research
Dienststelle Kueste Institute - Department Hamburg
-------------------------------------------------------------
------------
Unix _IS_ user friendly - itıs just selective about who its
friends are.
-------------------------------------------------------------
------------
====
>...
>Are the new greek laws in accordance with
>European laws? I bet one could argue something
>like that at a European court
>...
>
> Thatıs exactly the point I have discussed with a colleague
yesterday.
> integrated in its Ŝrmware. So, many mobile phone
manufacturers are
> handicapped with Greece, since they either canıt sell
anymore their
> phones, or they are forced to rewrite the Ŝrmware
especially for Greece.
>
> Sooner or later some European Court will outlaw this law
fur sure.
If you knew how many such laws exist in Greece that should
have been
outlawed since decades, you wouldnıt be so optimistic. But,
anyway
thanks for your optimism, it encourages me that perhaps some
time in
the future we, Greeks, will have modern laws.
Greetings, err still gamings,
Nick.
====
I was walking past an electronics store and saw an HP32SII
in the window. Apparently theyıre discontinued and this was
a leftover -- it was down to $39 Canadian, and given the
pathetic value of the Canadian dollar, thatıs practically
free.
So I added it to my other HP calculators (45, 48, 49).
My Ŝrst impression is that itıs just amazing how much they
could cram into it. Really comprehensive. It doesnıt look
as if it has softkey menus, but it does, and there sure are
a lot of commands buried in there. And the manual is
Ŝrst-rate, even better than the HP48 book.
I had a bit of trouble at Ŝrst (it wouldnıt behave the way
the manual said) until I realized that the stack entry is
the old classic style, more like the HP45 than the HP48.
And of course, there are only four levels (Iıve been spoiled
by the 48).
Oddity: I couldnıt Ŝnd any command to clear the stack. All
the other calcs have that. At least itıs no problem writing
a short program to do it.
The programming is a bit awkward compared to UserRPL, but
itıs very concise. It has to be, since there are only 384
bytes of user RAM. I know it was designed in the 80s, but I
thought theyıd have expanded it by now. Oh well, lots of
memory encourages sloppy programming (see Gates, Bill).
The speed: for short calculations there isnıt much
difference from the 48, but for long ones (a hefty integral,
say) it takes 6-7 times as long. But then thatıs why it can
run on three button cells.
In short, I think itıs just great and a Ŝrst-class backup
for my bigger calcs. Grab one if you can Ŝnd one.
Bill
====
> My Ŝrst impression is that itıs just amazing how much they
> could cram into it. Really comprehensive. It doesnıt look
> as if it has softkey menus, but it does, and there sure are
> a lot of commands buried in there. And the manual is
> Ŝrst-rate, even better than the HP48 book.
>
I agree- none of the 28/48/49 manuals have stacked up. And
yeah- thereıs a
ton of good functionality in there. If you donıt mind the
memory issues it
will easily get you through most courses in school, and is my
favorite
pocket calc (my 42s is just to pricey to put in a pocket)for
daily use.
> The programming is a bit awkward compared to UserRPL, but
> itıs very concise. It has to be, since there are only 384
> bytes of user RAM. I know it was designed in the 80s, but I
> thought theyıd have expanded it by now. Oh well, lots of
> memory encourages sloppy programming (see Gates, Bill).
I Ŝnd the programming much easier and more task-useable than
UserRPL,
actually.
The RAM is a bit of an issue- and itıs just life in HP land-
the 20S has 99 \

steps, when it would have dominated in its price range (under
$40US) to
this day if it had 384. The 32SII would have sold a lot
longer and better,
perhaps, if theyıd managed to cram in 3-4KB more without
raising the price
more than $15.
> In short, I think itıs just great and a Ŝrst-class backup
> for my bigger calcs. Grab one if you can Ŝnd one.
It is that- and more than a backup, as long as you donıt have
needs that
max the memory it is a Ŝne primary calculator. Itıs
drastically more
useful than any of the other non graphing (IE pocket) calcs
out there.
(barring the possible exceptions of the 20S for algebraic
entry, the 42S
for people who can afford $250 pocket breakages)....
--
while E <<koyote>>
====
Apparently others share your feelings about the 32sii. Check
out the
selling/buying frenzy on Ebay.
Bob
> I was walking past an electronics store and saw an HP32SII
> in the window. Apparently theyıre discontinued and this was
> a leftover -- it was down to $39 Canadian, and given the
> pathetic value of the Canadian dollar, thatıs practically
free.
>
> So I added it to my other HP calculators (45, 48, 49).
>
> My Ŝrst impression is that itıs just amazing how much they
> could cram into it. Really comprehensive. It doesnıt look
> as if it has softkey menus, but it does, and there sure are
> a lot of commands buried in there. And the manual is
> Ŝrst-rate, even better than the HP48 book.
>
> I had a bit of trouble at Ŝrst (it wouldnıt behave the way
> the manual said) until I realized that the stack entry is
> the old classic style, more like the HP45 than the HP48.
> And of course, there are only four levels (Iıve been spoiled
> by the 48).
>
> Oddity: I couldnıt Ŝnd any command to clear the stack. All
> the other calcs have that. At least itıs no problem writing
> a short program to do it.
>
> The programming is a bit awkward compared to UserRPL, but
> itıs very concise. It has to be, since there are only 384
> bytes of user RAM. I know it was designed in the 80s, but I
> thought theyıd have expanded it by now. Oh well, lots of
> memory encourages sloppy programming (see Gates, Bill).
>
> The speed: for short calculations there isnıt much
> difference from the 48, but for long ones (a hefty integral,
> say) it takes 6-7 times as long. But then thatıs why it can
> run on three button cells.
>
> In short, I think itıs just great and a Ŝrst-class backup
> for my bigger calcs. Grab one if you can Ŝnd one.
>
> Bill
>
====
I bought a 32SII as a backup and have to disagree. The
miserly 384 bytes
memory effectively renders any of the other advanced features
useless. \
Just
one equation for the built in Solver used a third of the
memory. Would \
have
been a lovely calc with even 8k of memory.
Nice display, keyboard etc. Itıs a good scientiŜc calculator
but thats
all. I guess I just wish it was a HP42.
> I was walking past an electronics store and saw an HP32SII
> in the window. Apparently theyıre discontinued and this was
> a leftover -- it was down to $39 Canadian, and given the
> pathetic value of the Canadian dollar, thatıs practically
free.
>
> So I added it to my other HP calculators (45, 48, 49).
>
> My Ŝrst impression is that itıs just amazing how much they
> could cram into it. Really comprehensive. It doesnıt look
> as if it has softkey menus, but it does, and there sure are
> a lot of commands buried in there. And the manual is
> Ŝrst-rate, even better than the HP48 book.
>
> I had a bit of trouble at Ŝrst (it wouldnıt behave the way
> the manual said) until I realized that the stack entry is
> the old classic style, more like the HP45 than the HP48.
> And of course, there are only four levels (Iıve been spoiled
> by the 48).
>
> Oddity: I couldnıt Ŝnd any command to clear the stack. All
> the other calcs have that. At least itıs no problem writing
> a short program to do it.
>
> The programming is a bit awkward compared to UserRPL, but
> itıs very concise. It has to be, since there are only 384
> bytes of user RAM. I know it was designed in the 80s, but I
> thought theyıd have expanded it by now. Oh well, lots of
> memory encourages sloppy programming (see Gates, Bill).
>
> The speed: for short calculations there isnıt much
> difference from the 48, but for long ones (a hefty integral,
> say) it takes 6-7 times as long. But then thatıs why it can
> run on three button cells.
>
> In short, I think itıs just great and a Ŝrst-class backup
> for my bigger calcs. Grab one if you can Ŝnd one.
>
> Bill
====
\Bill Markwick\ <bmarkwick@cfmx.com> escribi\.97 en el mensaje
>
> Oddity: I couldnıt Ŝnd any command to clear the stack. All
> the other calcs have that. At least itıs no problem writing
> a short program to do it.
>
I think that clear stack usually is not needed, but I guess
(as I donıt use
that model) there is a command like \CLEAR sigma\ of the
15c... This \
clears
stack and statistic registers.
Hope this helps.
PS: Also you can do: 0 ENTER ENTER ENTER...
====
The 32sII is an excellent calc.

be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net
====
My junior year of high school I won a 48gx and tried to use
it at Ŝrst, \
but
I was really clumsy with it and used my ti86 for the
remainder of high
school (mainly because all the teachers at my school require
the use of a
ti83+ or 86 and offer no help with any other calulators). So
here I am in
college and just getting around to really using it, and I was
wondering how
to symbolically expand something like (a+b)^3 to the full
form. Any help?
~joe
====
\Jotux\ <joe at jotux dot com> escribi\.97 en el mensaje
> My junior year of high school I won a 48gx and tried to use
it at Ŝrst,
but
> I was really clumsy with it and used my ti86 for the
remainder of high
> school (mainly because all the teachers at my school
require the use of a
> ti83+ or 86 and offer no help with any other calulators).
So here I am \
in
> college and just getting around to really using it, and I
was wondering
how
> to symbolically expand something like (a+b)^3 to the full
form. Any \
help?
> ~joe
>
If really you want use your 48, I recommend you ordering two
RAM cards
(128kb and 1Mb) from http://uuhome.de/oklotz/index_e.html .
Installing
the most powerfull calculators for 65 euros. Youıll need some
time for
reading the documentation, but it is worth. Also, download
the AUR.
====
EVAL works. I Ŝnd playing with the EVAL FACTOR and SIMP in
the EQW are my
Ŝrst quickest steps to manipulatiing an equation. If they
donıt do what I
want then I pull out the manual.
> My junior year of high school I won a 48gx and tried to use
it at Ŝrst,
but
> I was really clumsy with it and used my ti86 for the
remainder of high
> school (mainly because all the teachers at my school
require the use of a
> ti83+ or 86 and offer no help with any other calulators).
So here I am \
in
> college and just getting around to really using it, and I
was wondering
how
> to symbolically expand something like (a+b)^3 to the full
form. Any \
help?
> ~joe
>
>
====
Original question [re HP48GX]:
> how to symbolically expand something like Œ(a+b)^3ı to the
full form.
On 48GX, try this program,
found in the Advanced Userıs Reference (AUR):
\\<< DO DUP EXPAN UNTIL DUP ROT SAME END
DO DUP COLCT UNTIL DUP ROT SAME END \\>> ŒEXCOı STO
> EVAL works.
Not on HP48G[X]
> EVAL FACTOR and SIMP in the EQW
Not on HP48G[X]
> pull out the manual
The AUR didnıt come with the HP48G[X]
(and is no longer available, although you can
still order a photocopy for as little as US $75 :)
[r->] [OFF]
.
====
Sorry, didnıt even cross my mind that the behaviour would be
different
between the 48 and 49 for such a basic command. Guess this is
an example
where the extra functionality of the 49 is worth the slight
speed drop due
to the processing and handling of the extra types.
Stephen.N
> Original question [re HP48GX]:
>
> how to symbolically expand something like Œ(a+b)^3ı to the
full form.
>
> On 48GX, try this program,
> found in the Advanced Userıs Reference (AUR):
>
> \\<< DO DUP EXPAN UNTIL DUP ROT SAME END
> DO DUP COLCT UNTIL DUP ROT SAME END \\>> ŒEXCOı STO
>
> EVAL works.
>
> Not on HP48G[X]
>
> EVAL FACTOR and SIMP in the EQW
>
> Not on HP48G[X]
>
> pull out the manual
>
> The AUR didnıt come with the HP48G[X]
> (and is no longer available, although you can
> still order a photocopy for as little as US $75 :)
>
> [r->] [OFF]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>
====
> the extra functionality of the 49 is worth the slight speed
drop
> due to the processing and handling of the extra types.
Although the example Iım about to cite is atypical,
here is a case where an old HP48 [S/G] command
takes *15*times* as long to execute on the 49G
(and so does a program of mine which needs to use that
command):
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=
2953da04.0201290432.23a461f8%40posti\
ng.google.com
Why was that old 48[S/G] command even altered at all
(it is incompatible on the 49G with the way it worked on the
48S/48G,
when the new 49G CAS SOLVE command replaces it completely in
the CAS?
So thatıs why my old 48[S/G] triangle solver program
isnıt \49G certiŜed\ (and never will be :)
http://www.mum.edu
.
====
reporting that a friendıs web site was entirely invisible on
the
google system (was not listed at all) despite being happily
picked up
by many others, including msn, hotbot, lycos, web crawler,
excite...
I told them that Iıd had the site checked out by experienced
programmers who conŜrmed it has all the necessary keywords,
correct
source coding, etc and that the fault is probably with
googleıs
procedures.
again on Aug 6 (3 months later!) to get another automated
response
[#721242] and here we are today, another month on with still
no
response despite many reminders in between.
Maybe google is working so hard on the problem of this
invisible site
that it is just too busy to reply. Or maybe google are just a
bunch
of hippie chancers who donıt give two ŝying fucks about the
people
who use their system.
====
> was entirely invisible on the google system (was not listed
at all)
> despite being happily picked up by many others, including
msn,
> hotbot, lycos, web crawler, excite...
> I told them that Iıd had the site checked out by experienced
> programmers who conŜrmed it has all the necessary keywords,
> correct source coding, etc and that the fault
> is probably with googleıs procedures.
None of the above matters to Google;
thatıs essentially what makes Google different
(and usually more valuable for the seeker of information).
Here is what matters; also note what \B2\ says:
http://www.google.com/webmasters/1.html
http://www.google.com/webmasters/1.html#B2 <===
http://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html
http://www.google.com/webmasters/4.html
http://www.google.com/webmasters/dos.html <===
Other venues for feedback to Google:
http://www.google.com/contact/index.html
http://www.google.com/quality_form
And, of course, you have also pursued the following already,
where you posted the same complaint, but no one supplied
the direct links above, which you could have found for
yourself.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=
google.public.support.general
Good luck.
.
====
Not through this newsgroup :)
An interesting thing about our written communications,
however,
is that we can even see and feel the expression of frustration
and the \shouting\ response that is conveyed by the all-caps
subject,
as well as its phrasing, and Iıd like to address that.
During the development of the Google Groups system,
through which you have posted, I sent several suggestions
and surprisingly, I usually got a personal response;
all the particular things that I suggested have also
eventually been implemented in Googleıs current system,
although this may be the result of the very same suggestions
having been made by very many people, or to have been obvious
to Googleıs developers anyway (or sometimes not, who knows?)
There was also once a time when Google cut off our access
to all search queries, returning instead a \terms of service\
notice; at Ŝrst, I thought that perhaps Google
was turning into a paid-only service rather quickly,
reply explaining what had led them to think that \our\
IP address was hosting a \robot,\ forwarding another
search engineıs automated queries through Google, and also
explaining how to test what IP address Google thinks we are
at.
I replied to them that \our\ IP address was actually
the ISPıs cache server address, the same for the entire
geographical area which that ISP covers, that \we\
were not likely responsible for the kind of queries
they had monitored, and that by blocking this one IP address,
they were also hiding themselves from a large population
all over southeast Iowa; I also gave them a contact at the
ISP,
and very shortly thereafter, Google removed the blocks.
I do not know what contact address(es) Google now maintains,
nor who, if anyone, now reads what is probably a vastly larger
like anyone, they might respond more to cordiality than to
cursing.
The only comparable site where I had ever before found so much
staff who always personally replied -- perhaps thatıs why
they folded :)
[and were bought by Google, which is the good fortune that has
preserved the ability to now access 20 years of postings
archives,
I can sympathize with what happens when a company does
and Ŝnd that the general public is often just the sort of
unappreciative bleep-heads that you accuse Google of being,
in which case it is not surprising that they might want to
better insulate themselves from having to directly talk to
anyone,
for reasons more than merely economic.
The general quality of life arises from all the interactions
between all the individual people, and the quality of all
those interactions arises in turn from the consciousness
of that same society of individual people, which together
forms a collective consciousness of the society.
That collective consciousness can be inŝuenced,
at a very deep level, by human beings who deeply experience
the total Ŝeld of consciousness within themselves,
but every individual person in society can also do
his or her part in being the sort of person you would yourself
like other people to be to you, as much as you can.
Project more appreciation and good to others; it is never
wasted.
Even if you never get a reply, your own calmness and positive
attitude
will still directly beneŜt you, yourself, because the quality
of
our own self-interaction is a major part of our own
well-being.
----------------------------------------
With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu
.
====
I have rarely read such complacent blather and indolent
psychobabble
in a supposedly serious newsgroup. You are obviously a dunce
who
judging from your prose style has read too many corporate
handouts, PR
mantras & celebrity biographies. You are therefore scared of
a)
shouting and b) thinking.
Maybe your lickass brown nosing strategy will get you brownie
(nose)
points from the corporate hippies at google who may even give
you a
new job as ball boy #40043 on their virtual tennis court.
More likely
you will fret and puff your life away in some dingy academic
ofŜce
festooned with timetables and blotchy snapshots of students.
Meanwhile, consider the style of google automated responses:
\keep on
googlinı\
Indeed - I mean, why donıt we also all just OD on Disney
Warner Google
acid and just die slowly & surely in the Disney Google Warner
desert
sands with our pricks up a stifŜe Warner Disney Google
Deadheadıs ass
while mouthing dimly remembered words to a Pink Floyd track...
Meanwhile, these businessmen have not replied to a simple and
legitimate question.
And who - except you, cares about how many questions such
pretentious
millionaires get?
And who cares about high stepping along the tripwire of
decorum you
have strung to protect your fragile ego from people like me?
> That collective consciousness can be inŝuenced,
> at a very deep level,
There are no levels at all, please try to understand this.
Your brain
has been addled by psychoanalytic-Romantic fantasies about
\levels\
only surfaces, only your words. Nothing else. Scary, huh?
>by human beings who deeply experience
Now you are sounding like a Christmas card...
> the total Ŝeld of consciousness within themselves,
Totality went out with Hegel, grow up!
> but every individual person in society
Cliches, or what?
>can also do
> his or her part in being the sort of person you would
yourself
> like other people to be to you, as much as you can.
Amen, spit and polish, lick the ŝoors clean, & letıs just
DANCE the
night away, yeah yeah yeah...
>
> Project more appreciation and good to others;
>it is never wasted.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaat?
> Even if you never get a reply, your own calmness and
positive attitude
> will still directly beneŜt you, yourself, because the
quality of
> our own self-interaction is a major part of our own
well-being.
>
You are deŜnitely insane.
> An interesting thing about our written communications,
however,
> is that we can even see and feel the expression of
frustration
> and the \shouting\ response that is conveyed by the
all-caps subject,
> as well as its phrasing, and Iıd like to address that.
>
Meanwhile, we will NOT address the bizarre contortions, cute
prose
rythms, and the abjectness that goes into being you...
====
Fred [sounded off like a braying animal, which is probably
why he commands so much respect in professional circles]
The Coming of Wisdom with Time
\Though leaves are many, the root is one;
Through all the lying days of my youth
I swayed my leaves and ŝowers in the sun;
Now I may wither into the truth.\
http://www.lit.kobe-u.ac.jp/~hishika/yeats.htm
http://www.bartleby.com/people/Yeats-Wi.html
http://www.nobel.se/literature/laureates/1923/
\Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexations to the
spirit.\
http://colleenscorner.com/Poetry3.html
\I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself
I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore,
and diverting myself in now and then Ŝnding a smoother pebble
or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of
truth
lay all undiscovered before me.\
Just as small mistakes in programming may incapacitate
the operation of a computer or calculator, small
mistranslations
or misunderstandings can bury the knowledge which could
otherwise
be inherited by us from the long trail of human wisdom, e.g.:
\Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth\
The general error is to reverse cause and effect in the above.
You do not achieve what you desire by suppressing yourself,
but when you are really on the right track with what you
are doing, it communicates itself effectively to others,
and you can organize the means to accomplish things
without ŝoundering in your own chaos,
or trying to compensate with bluster.
The greater the quality of leadership, the less screaming or
violence of any kind is required to have the same inŝuence,
and that is how a quiet man like Gandhi, with weapons only
of his own spirit, Ŝnally sent an armed and vicious colonial
power
packing; he did not appear to be \winning\ at every step of
his path,
but what he did resonated with and uniŜed an entire nation,
and even an entire world was inŝuenced. A bullet from
a lone assassinıs gun can silence the one leader,
but can not halt the progress of all humanity,
which it was his gift to recognize and be an agent for.
Muhammad, Moses, Buddha, Christ -- there is no fundamental
difference
in what they all recognized, experienced, and taught,
although subsequent interpreters can lose all sense of it,
if they do not have the same quality of their own
consciousness
and consequent experience to keep them on the right track.
\In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.\ [John 1:1]
\Beauty, old yet ever new, eternal voice and inward word\
\During this period of his life Muhammad traveled widely.
Then, in his forties he began to retire to meditate
Muhammad recited the words of what are now
the Ŝrst Ŝve verses of the 96th surah or chapter of the Quran,
words which proclaim God the Creator of man
and the Source of all knowledge.\
They all do the same -- they meditate, they experience
the totality of all consciousness within themselves,
then they come out to teach it. If their disciples
follow the same steps, including the critical step
of also experiencing the source of pure consciousness
within themselves, then they continue to embody
the same original knowledge and pass it down;
if they neglect to have the personal experience,
however, then they drift off into distortion,
and their descendants turn ever more violent,
trying to compensate for the living effectiveness which they
lost.
Thatıs \a brief history of humanity,\ in a couple of
paragraphs.
If you want to put down mankindıs spiritual history, however,
at least do it with some humor and style:
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/meek.html
\A teacher affects eternity;
he can never tell where his inŝuence stops.\
http://www.mum.edu
====
>
> \Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
> and remember what peace there may be in silence.
>
> As far as possible, without surrender,
> be on good terms with all persons.
>
> Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others,
> even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
>
> Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexations to
the spirit.\
apropos):
Go placidly amid the noise and waste.
and remember what comfort there may be
in owning a piece thereof.
Avoid quiet and passive persons
unless you are in need of sleep.
[..]
Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and
disillusionment,
and despite the changing fortunes of time,
there is always a big future in computer maintenance.
====
[shit removed]
I would surely prefer to read John H. Meyer posts rather than
yours.
Have you ever published anything of interest in this
newsgroup? Not that I
can remember.
John has been posting here for as far as I can remember and
is a valued
member of this community. So keep your ŝaming away.
====
> Not through this newsgroup :)
> An interesting thing about our written communications,
however,
> is that we can even see and feel the expression of
frustration
> and the \shouting\ response that is conveyed by the
all-caps subject,
> as well as its phrasing, and Iıd like to address that.
Well (though it is terribly offtopic). How many requests do
you
expect that google get a day to `please list our websiteı.
Iıd vote
for thousands. How many do you think are legitimate? Are *any*
legitimate? In particular, for the person who is complaining
here
(why here?), if the web site isnıt in whatever googleıs root
set is
(and they arenıt very likely to put it in the root set for
you, and if
no-one links to it, then as I understand googleıs algorithm
itıs not
going to show up. And thatıs *right*: google works by links
to a
site, so if you want to get them to list it, you need to get
people to
link to it, not complain at google, who are just doing their
job as a
search engine.
--tim
====
>... [Fred shows his anger about a website not found by
google] ...
The website is hosted on a HP48?
Holger
====
> The website is hosted on a HP48?
No no. *Google* runs on a large farm of HP48s. Theyıve been
trying
to port to HP49s (in fact, Google largely funded the HP49
effort at
HP), but the extreme load causes the keycaps to ŝake off and
the
screens to go a funny colour. Only HP48s will do for this
environment. I regret to say that they are now considering a
port to
some TI abomination, although Iıve been hearing recent
rumours that
they are also considering the 32SII.
--tim
====
> No no. *Google* runs on a large farm of HP48s. Theyıve been
trying
> to port to HP49s (in fact, Google largely funded the HP49
effort at
> HP), but the extreme load causes the keycaps to ŝake off
and the
> screens to go a funny colour. Only HP48s will do for this
> environment.
Unfortunately, the HP 48 keys arenıt really designed to be
pecked by
pigeons. Hoewver, they do withstand pecking much better than
the HP 49G
keys.
====
\Tim Bradshaw\ <tfb@cley.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> ... although Iıve been hearing recent rumours that
> they are also considering the 32SII.
That explains why the 32SII is no longer sold. Whith only 384
bytes of
memory Google will need HPs complete production of them.
Supposingly it is \
a
special model with network capabilities. I hope theyıll show
up on ebay \
some
day!
Wouldnıt it be a good idea to make another farm with 12Cs for
business
websites?
Holger
====
Iım having trouble transferring Ŝles to my HP49G. IO settings
are as
follows:
WIRE (Obviously)
Kermit
ASCII
No translation
Checksum Type 1
9600 Baud
No Parity
No overwrite
HPComm settings are as follows:
Translation: Mode 0
Checksum: Type 1
Speed: 9600
The calc connects to HPComm OK but I am unable to transfer a
Ŝle such as
ALBW1.1 the Allocated Bandwidth program by Mike Richards.
HPComm keeps
giving me a \The Ŝle you tried to send does not contain valid
data or a
valid program\ error.
I just canıt seem to get this transfer to work.
Any help would be greatly appreciated as this is driving me
nuts. I have \
had
it working correctly previously.
====
>
> Iım having trouble transferring Ŝles to my HP49G. IO
settings are as
> follows:
>
> WIRE (Obviously)
> Kermit
> ASCII
> No translation
> Checksum Type 1
> 9600 Baud
> No Parity
> No overwrite
>
> HPComm settings are as follows:
>
> Translation: Mode 0
> Checksum: Type 1
> Speed: 9600
>
> The calc connects to HPComm OK but I am unable to transfer
a Ŝle such as
> ALBW1.1 the Allocated Bandwidth program by Mike Richards.
HPComm keeps
> giving me a \The Ŝle you tried to send does not contain
valid data or a
> valid program\ error.
>
> I just canıt seem to get this transfer to work.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated as this is driving me
nuts. I have \
had
> it working correctly previously.
Well, itıs a directory, and it has a variable named ŒEXITı.
My 49G
doesnıt like it because I already have a library command
named ŒEXITı
(in OT49). I modiŜed it to use the name ŒQUITı for that
variable, and
also to use reals instead of ZINTs. See if you can download
the
following.
-------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
%%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.);
@ Checksum: # F8F3h
@ Bytes: 1126.5
DIR
DATA 2.048
FEC .666666666667
RS .911111111111
BTS 3.
RPRT
\\<< \Data: \ DATA 4.
RND \\->STR +
\ mb
FEC: \ + FEC 4.
RND + \ RS: \ + RS 4.
RND + \
Tran: \ +
DATA RS FEC * / DUP
BTS / \\-> t s
\\<< t 6. RND \\->STR +
\ mb
BTS: \ + BTS +
IF ŒBTS==1.ı
THEN \ (BPSK)\
+
ELSE
IF ŒBTS==2.ı
THEN
\ (QPSK)\ +
ELSE
IF ŒBTS==3.
Œ
THEN
\ (8PSK)\ +
ELSE
IF ŒBTS==
4.ı
THEN
\ (16QAM)\ +
END
END
END
END \
Symb: \ +
s 6. RND \\->STR +
\ mb
OcBW: \ + s 1.2
* 6. RND \\->STR +
\ MHz
AlBW: \ + s 1.4
* .02 + 6. RND \\->STR +
\ MHz\ + Œ\\182ı STO \\182
CLLCD 1. DISP 3.
FREEZE
\\>>
\\>>
PRINT
\\<< \\182 PR1 CLEAR
\\>>
PRDEV
\\<< -34. FS?
IF 1. ==
THEN { { \\\[]WIRE\
\\<< -34. SF 0.
DELAY 0. MENU
\\>> } { \IR\
\\<< -34. CF 1.8
DELAY 0. MENU
\\>> } } TMENU
ELSE { { \WIRE\
\\<< -34. SF 0.
DELAY 0. MENU
\\>> } { \\\[]IR\
\\<< -34. CF 1.8
DELAY 0. MENU
\\>> } } TMENU
END
\\>>
QUIT
\\<< UPDIR 2. MENU
\\>>
\\182
\Data: 2.048 mb
FEC: .6667 RS: .9111
Tran: 3.371707 mb
BTS: 3 (8PSK)
Symb: 1.123902 mb
OcBW: 1.348683 MHz
AlBW: 1.593463 MHz\
END
-------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
--
James
====
Binary?
X
> HPComm keeps
> giving me a \The Ŝle you tried to send does not contain
valid data or a
> valid program\ error.
====
... doesnıt seem to make any difference ...
====
When I lend my calc to friends, I wnt it to be algebric and
was not
happy with what I found on hpcalc so I developped my own.
Please send me comments.
It is available at:
http://www.chez.com/amiel/hp48/algcalc.zip
And only works on HP48G and HP48GX. It is obviously useless
on the 49
and use unsupported entry points that have changed from the S
serie.
Arnaud
====
Great idea! - I have exactly the same problem when I lend my
calc.
Needs to be developed
Andrew
> When I lend my calc to friends, I wnt it to be algebric and
was not
> happy with what I found on hpcalc so I developped my own.
> Please send me comments.
> It is available at:
> http://www.chez.com/amiel/hp48/algcalc.zip
>
> And only works on HP48G and HP48GX. It is obviously useless
on the 49
> and use unsupported entry points that have changed from the
S serie.
>
>
> Arnaud
====
\Andrew Hall\ <s4007925@student.uq.edu.au> escribi\.97 en el
mensaje
> Great idea! - I have exactly the same problem when I lend
my calc.
>
> Needs to be developed
>
> Andrew
>
>
Much better: donıt lend the calculator :-D
====
Back in high school when someone wanted to borrow my HP Iıd
give it to \
them,
watch them hit a few keys, and ask me, \whereıs the equals
key?\ They \
never
asked again.
>
> \Andrew Hall\ <s4007925@student.uq.edu.au> escribi\.97 en
el mensaje
> Great idea! - I have exactly the same problem when I lend
my calc.
>
> Needs to be developed
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> Much better: donıt lend the calculator :-D
>
====
This ng is Ŝlled with very useful and interesting posts whch
I read
contribute. I hope my thoughts here are not too OT.
I have been thinking about the direction HP has taken away
from RPN
for their new calculator products. There are obviously a lot
of folks
who use the advanced graphical and symbolic capabilities of
the
HP48/49 calcs, and the \wish lists\ often focus on enhancing
these
features with color displays, faster plotting, and the like.
For me
however, plotting and advanced data analysis are more
comfortable on a
PC using Origin, Axum, Matlab, or similar programs. So, some
prefer
the convenience of the handheld calc for advanced features,
but others
(like me) are more pedestrian in their use.
The products whose disappearance really pains me is the
RPN-based,
scientiŜc, shirt-pocket calculator. The HP42S, 15C, etc.
command
hefty prices on the used market. I know that some of this is
driven by
collectors, but I often see WTB posts from users whose 42S
just died
and they just want a replacement in working order. Even the
collector
interest in these calcs points to their great utility - I
doubt that
the algebraic HP20S, if discontinued today, would command
$200 on the
used market anytime soon.
So, this leads to question.
Is there a reasonable chance that ANYONE will introduce a new
pocket
scientiŜc calculator which uses RPN? I know the potential
market is
smaller, but with TI, Casio, Sharp, and others competing for
shelf
space at Walmart with their $8.99 - $12.99 offerings, could
someone
Ŝnd a place in their product line for a RPN-based scientiŜc
with
similar capabilities, but at a higher price? $50-$75 would
not be a
deterrent for me, and some keystroke programming capability
would be
worth more. Are there others like me out there, or not?
I would guess that few students would buy RPN on a whim,
since the
algebraic system is all they have been exposed to. Do you
think it
would catch on? Perhaps RPN and the OLD HP calculator
philosophy were
somehow tied together. HP calcs were never promoted to be the
cheap
calc for everyday balancing-your-checkbook use. The quality
was
higher, and the intended market was more demanding. The
professionals
and students for whom the older HP calcs were designed were
willing to
pay a little more, and invest a little more time in learning
how to
use it. Maybe the guys who buy cheap calcs at Walmart would
never be
interested in RPN.
Sorry for all the rambling here. I hope Iıll hear something
encouraging about the future, but I donıt know. Iım not too
old at 44
yet, but I have noticed the funny looks I get from new grads
if I talk
nostalgically about my old HP29C!
Don Davis
====
> I would guess that few students would buy RPN on a whim,
since the
> algebraic system is all they have been exposed to. Do you
think it
> would catch on?
Iım a mechanical engineering student in Queensland, Australia.
While hp calcs are not the most popular (due to the ti83(+)),
they are
deŜnitely not the least popular. eg. I see many more hp49ıs
than ti89ıs.
In my course (2nd year mech) there are at least 10 (out of 60
or so) people
that use an hp calc of the RPN variety. If trends are similar
in other
places, there is a market in RPN for students. Many friends
of mine are
envious of my 49ıs capabilities.
~17% * RPN market at UQ - sounds like a big enough share to
me. However,
Iım pretty sure that hp have done their sums. Pity.
Andrew
* ~17% from my (feeble) observations only.
====
> Is there a reasonable chance that ANYONE will introduce a
new pocket
> scientiŜc calculator which uses RPN? I know the potential
market is
> smaller, but with TI, Casio, Sharp, and others competing
for shelf
> space at Walmart with their $8.99 - $12.99 offerings, could
someone
> Ŝnd a place in their product line for a RPN-based scientiŜc
with
> similar capabilities, but at a higher price? $50-$75 would
not be a
> deterrent for me, and some keystroke programming capability
would be
> worth more. Are there others like me out there, or not?
I think the market for calculators in that price range has
been eaten.
It used to be the case that you could buy a good scientiŜc
calculator
for say, Ŝfty to a few hundred dollars, or you could spend
maybe
2,000 on a PC, and then have to buy or write software for it,
and it
wasnıt portable. So there was a whacking great hole in the
market
where engineers and other professional-type people would buy
a good
calculator. But now, well, a well-engineered calculator
*still* costs
$50-200, especially if the market is small. And the market is
small
because for $300 or something you can buy a PDA which will do
most of
what the calculator would do, *and* be a diary &c &c (and
soon, if not
now, be a phone too). And for not that much more you can buy a
genuinely portable laptop onto which you can stuff
mathematica and so
on.
So I think the market for decent calculators has changed from
professionals who couldnıt afford a computer - either because
it was
too heavy or too expensive - to people who arenıt *allowed*
to have a
computer, namely students in exams. Those people have
different
requirements (and less money).
Whether the market could sustain a low-end RPN calculator I
donıt
know. I suspect not, though.
--tim
====
\Don Davis\ <dddavis@mindspring.com> escribi\.97 en el mensaje
>
> Sorry for all the rambling here. I hope Iıll hear something
> encouraging about the future, but I donıt know. Iım not too
old at 44
> yet, but I have noticed the funny looks I get from new
grads if I talk
> nostalgically about my old HP29C!
>
> Don Davis
Iım 34 and the Ŝrst sci calculator I had in my hands was a
34c \that \
nobody
knows how works...\ (1981)
My 48 is a great help in my work but for many tasks I diary
use a recently
exchanged 15c. They are simply priceless.
And the future is black. Dark black.
====
Thereıs not much I wouldnıt do for a simple, good-quality, RPN
calculator, even just a 4-banger. Iıd probably buy several
(car,
workshop, study, kitchen...)
Neill McKay
====
the hp32sii works for me!
http://www.henryhall.com/catalog.htm
search for hew32sii, a really nice calculator :)
$66
anybody knows a cheaper place to buy?
> Thereıs not much I wouldnıt do for a simple, good-quality,
RPN
> calculator, even just a 4-banger. Iıd probably buy several
(car,
> workshop, study, kitchen...)
>
> Neill McKay
====
> the hp32sii works for me!
>
> http://www.henryhall.com/catalog.htm
>
> search for hew32sii, a really nice calculator :)
>
> $66
I have a 32sii, which is probably my favourite of 3 HPs.
Unfortunately,
$66 is above the \cheap enough to buy 3 or 4\ threshold. What
Iıd like \
to
see is a decent, simple, RPN calculator (not necessarily
build to HP
standards) in the $10-$15 range.
Neill McKay
====
| the hp32sii works for me!
| http://www.henryhall.com/catalog.htm
| search for hew32sii, a really nice calculator :)
| $66
The 48SX works for me. I bought my last one (#3) for $50.
====
Lately when I work with my HP49 I get to many variables like
ppar y1
y2 and stuff like that, so i tried to design a program in
sysrpl to
erase all the variables but the program it self, but I canıt
make it
work, it always erases all the variables.
::
Dovars
(here the comand that explodes the list and puts the number of
objects, I donıt remeber it now: FPTR 6 158)
Bint0
Do
Dup
ΠId CLN (this is the name of the variable where the program
is
stored)
EQ
ITE
:: drop ;
:: purge ;
Loop
I think that the problem is the way I compare the variablesı
name.
Any body has some ideas?
Marturo
\UBI DUBIDUM IBI LIBERTAS\
====
>
> I think that the problem is the way I compare the
variablesı name.
Exactly. EQ compares just the memory address of the two
objects. I.e.
#5555 DUP EQ ( returns TRUE )
#5555 #5555 EQ ( FALSE )
#5555 #5555 EQUAL ( TRUE )
Note that you cannot do this with built-in BINTs like BINT0.
Greetings
Thomas
--
Thomas Rast <t.rast@freesurf.ch>
\If you cannot convince them, confuse them.\
-- Harry S. Truman
====
> when I work with my HP49 I get too many variables like ppar
y1 y2
> and stuff like that, so I tried to design a program in
sysrpl
> to erase all the variables but the program itself.
Hereıs a very dangerous user program which can reside in a
directory,
which will clear every variable but itself
(so donıt store it in HOME, for heavenıs sake ;)
\\<< 15 TVARS Œ~ı + PGDIR ŒZAPı DUP RCL CLVAR SWAP STO \\>>
ŒZAPı STO
Like the nitroglycerin which my high school buddies
easily made in chemistry lab, however, or the nuclear cores,
chemical wastes, climate and genetic changes, etc. which
governments
and industries have manufactured and now are stuck with,
now the new problem is how to get rid of it,
to prevent the unfortunate destructive consequences of not
doing so.
But perhaps we could sidestep this problem
by not creating it for ourselves in the Ŝrst place,
except only as a [misguided] training exercise.
Note that these calculators permit the creation of
subdirectories;
when we work in a subdirectory,
all variables in its parent directory(ies) remain accessible
by name,
as with a \path\ in Unix or MS-DOS, or a \searchlist\ in
other systems.
So, create an empty directory, e.g. ŒMYDIRı CRDIR
Then go into that empty directory (just press the MYDIR menu
key).
Then solve equations and create many variables;
when you want to delete them all, just type CLVAR.
CLVAR deletes all variables in the current directory,
but it leaves all parent directories alone.
This accomplishes the goal that you wanted;
there are many extra tools that we could also make and use
when we donıt bother making ourselves a subdirectory,
such as \clean solvers\ and the like, which you have to
keep remembering to always use to make them effective,
but to me, the ultimate tool is just to take advantage
of the built-in capabilities, when thereıs no need to do more.
It is often equally not realized that every living entity
(and society) has native capabilities that can accomplish its
goals,
without creating its own obstacles and then losing itself in
the task of making greater efforts to solve the self-created
problems.
There is nothing more practical in the world than Ŝnding
the best \native\ way to accomplish the ultimate goals that
people really want, and thatıs just what we do at our
university.
\I simply say to you that we have the metaphysical mind
apprehending, comprehending, and ordering the physical.
The physical tending to be disorderly and the metaphysical
apprehending, comprehending, and putting together. Man,
therefore,
represents the very clearly demonstrated function in the
universe
that is essential to the regeneration of the universe.\
R. Buckminster Fuller, Approaching the Benign Environment,
1970.
Q171.F96 on your library shelf, if you have a well-stocked
library.
A different perspective on all of history; past, present, and
future.
Here also are the Ŝrst paragraphs of Fullerıs
\Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth\
http://www.bŜ.org/operating_manual.htm
\I am enthusiastic over humanityıs extraordinary and sometimes
very timely ingenuities. If you are in a shipwreck and all
the boats
are gone, a piano top buoyant enough to keep you aŝoat that
comes
along makes a fortuitous life preserver. But this is not to
say that
the best way to design a life preserver is in the form of a
piano top.
I think that we are clinging to a great many piano tops in
accepting
yesterdayıs fortuitous contrivings as constituting the only
means for
solving a given problem. Our brains deal exclusively with
special-case
experiences. Only our minds are able to discover the
generalized
principles operating without exception in each and every
special-experience case which if detected and mastered
will give knowledgeable advantage in all instances.
Because our spontaneous initiative has been frustrated,
too often inadvertently, in earliest childhood, we do not
tend,
customarily, to dare to think competently regarding our
potentials.
We Ŝnd it socially easier to go on with our narrow,
shortsighted
specializations and leave it to others -- primarily to the
politicians -- to Ŝnd some way of resolving our common
dilemmas.\
Note that in the second paragraph, Fuller has already
distinguished
\mind\ (metaphysical, which we call consciousness)
from \brain\ (physical), after which I can only think
to repeat the Ŝrst Fuller quote:
\I simply say to you that we have the metaphysical mind
apprehending, comprehending, and ordering the physical.
The physical tending to be disorderly and the metaphysical
apprehending, comprehending, and putting together. Man,
therefore,
represents the very clearly demonstrated function in the
universe
that is essential to the regeneration of the universe.\
This is exactly what we experience, what we apply to
education,
and what we apply to the entire world around us.
Gıday!
http://www.mum.edu
.
====
Can someone help me Ŝnding a hp48 emulator for psion/epoc?
Zender
====
I have two programs listed below which I need to join
however it is not obvious to me. My problem is I am
communicating with a SDL30 digital level and the only
way to prompt the instrument to start reading is to
initiate the Ŝrst program and then press the cancel button
on the calculator which then starts the machine to read.
The second program can be initiated to receive the
information.
Is there another way to prompt the same result not using the
RECV command hence deleting unnecessary keystrokes
and messy programming.
CLEAR \LM\ XMIT
RECV


BUFLEN DROP
SRECV CLOSEIO DROP
OBJ\\->

Martin
====
>
> I have two programs listed below which I need to join
> however it is not obvious to me. My problem is I am
> communicating with a SDL30 digital level and the only
> way to prompt the instrument to start reading is to
> initiate the Ŝrst program and then press the cancel button
> on the calculator which then starts the machine to read.
> The second program can be initiated to receive the
information.
> Is there another way to prompt the same result not using the
> RECV command hence deleting unnecessary keystrokes
> and messy programming.
>
>  CLEAR \LM\ XMIT
> RECV
>
>
>
> BUFLEN DROP
> SRECV CLOSEIO DROP
> OBJ\\->
>
>
>
> Martin
If I got you right, then you want the HP to tell the SDL30 to
start
reading. So you send the command LM and then the SDL30 starts
reading
and sends data to the HP. If that is what you want then you
could use:
<<
\\ -> data
<< OPENIO
\LM\ XMIT DROP
WHILE
BUFLEN DROP
REPEAT
Œdataı
SRECV DROP
STO+
END
data OBJ->
CLOSEIO
>>
>>
Was it what you wanted?
Nick.
====
>
> I have two programs listed below which I need to join
> however it is not obvious to me. My problem is I am
> communicating with a SDL30 digital level and the only
> way to prompt the instrument to start reading is to
> initiate the Ŝrst program and then press the cancel button
> on the calculator which then starts the machine to read.
> The second program can be initiated to receive the
information.
> Is there another way to prompt the same result not using the
> RECV command hence deleting unnecessary keystrokes
> and messy programming.
>
>  CLEAR \LM\ XMIT
> RECV
>
>
>
> BUFLEN DROP
> SRECV CLOSEIO DROP
> OBJ\\->
>
>
>
> Martin
>
>
> If I got you right, then you want the HP to tell the SDL30
to start
> reading. So you send the command LM and then the SDL30
starts reading
> and sends data to the HP. If that is what you want then you
could use:
>
> <<
> \\ -> data
> << OPENIO
> \LM\ XMIT DROP
> WHILE
> BUFLEN DROP
> REPEAT
> Œdataı
> SRECV DROP
> STO+
> END
> data OBJ->
> CLOSEIO
> >>
>>
>
> Was it what you wanted?
> Nick.
Nick,
The program you have written is basically what I had
in mind however my problem is not that.
I am told to get the instrument to read I need to send \LM\
(ie \LM\ XMIT). However to get it to read I need to send
\LM\ XMIT RECV or \LM\ XMIT Œnı KGET putting the calculator
in server mode.
So can the server mode be cancelled from within a program
or am I missing the obvious with IOPAR at { 1200 0 0 1 2 }
or is there another way to send the command.
Martin
====
--------snipped rest--------
> Nick,
>
> The program you have written is basically what I had
> in mind however my problem is not that.
>
> I am told to get the instrument to read I need to send \LM\
> (ie \LM\ XMIT). However to get it to read I need to send
> \LM\ XMIT RECV or \LM\ XMIT Œnı KGET putting the calculator
> in server mode.
But Martin, to *send* \LM\ or any other string you only need
XMIT. Why do you use RECV or KGET after that? XMIT just sends
the string \LM\ to the other device, instructing it so to do
something. The rest of the stuf, RECV or KGET is to just
receive what the other device sends to you. I must be missing
something here...
> So can the server mode be cancelled from within a program
> or am I missing the obvious with IOPAR at { 1200 0 0 1 2 }
> or is there another way to send the command.
No, the IOPAR is for transfer setting but nothing more.
Greetings,
Nick.
====
>
>  CLEAR \LM\ XMIT
> RECV
>
>
>
> BUFLEN DROP
> SRECV CLOSEIO DROP
> OBJ\\->
>
Considering your \no error checking\ approach, \\<< \LM\ XMIT
DROP \\>> \

should do Ŝne for the Ŝrst program...
HTH
Thomas
--
Thomas Rast <t.rast@freesurf.ch>
\If you cannot convince them, confuse them.\
-- Harry S. Truman
====
I have bought a PC connectivity kit for my HP48GX calculator.
I can
download just Ŝne and can edit with HP-IDE. The problem is
that the
calculator wonıt accept the edited Ŝles back.
Is this a common problem, or is it just me?
Rod
====
I just acquired a 48GX. How can I connect it to my B&W G3 in
order to
download software into the 48GX?
====
> I just acquired a 48GX. How can I connect it to my B&W G3
in order to
> download software into the 48GX?
You need Ŝrst a cable for connecting the HP48GX to the Mac. I
think
that such cables are still sold by HP, but Iım not sure. They
connect
the serial port of the HP48GX with the pronter or modem port
of the
Mac. (The G3 has serial printer and modem port, doesnıt it?)
Then you need some program like kermit, or version 4 of
ClarisWorks
along with a kermitor Xmodem module for the communications
Toolbox. Do
you have such software? If not, I could give you a very old
(but very
functional) version of kermit or CW.
I suppose you know how to set up I/O on the HP49G, so I go
directly to
the setup of the Mac. With ClarisWorks you start the program,
and
create a new communications document. Then select menu
connection and
choose serial connection with the same parameters like the
HP49G.
Choose also the right port (modem or pronter). Then you
select menu
Ŝle transfer and choose the protocoll for the transfer.
(Xmodem or
kermit) Select \binary\ for tranfer mode (not Macbinary!).
Then select
connect menu and the Program connects to the serial port that
you
selected previously. Now from the menu transfer you can selct
receive
or send Ŝle and so on.
Greetings and do not hesitate to contact me if you still have
problems.
Nick.
====
> I just acquired a 48GX. How can I connect it to my B&W G3
in order to
> download software into the 48GX?
>
>
> You need Ŝrst a cable for connecting the HP48GX to the Mac.
I think
> that such cables are still sold by HP, but Iım not sure.
They connect
> the serial port of the HP48GX with the pronter or modem
port of the
> Mac. (The G3 has serial printer and modem port, doesnıt it?)
>
No.
====
>
> I just acquired a 48GX. How can I connect it to my B&W G3
in order to
> download software into the 48GX?
>
>
> You need Ŝrst a cable for connecting the HP48GX to the Mac.
I think
> that such cables are still sold by HP, but Iım not sure.
They connect
> the serial port of the HP48GX with the pronter or modem
port of the
> Mac. (The G3 has serial printer and modem port, doesnıt it?)
>
>
> No.
>
> Instead they have USB and (sometimes) Firewire ports. Mac
operating
> systems up to OS 9 support serial ports, for backwards
compatibility
> support serial ports even if they are present in the
machine OS X is
> running on.
>
Oh man, I got left behind! ;-)
You must buy then a USB to serial converter. I have one for
using my
printers (serial and appletalk) from my iMac.
Or is there kermit over USB connection? Anyone has seen
something like
this out there?
Greetings,
Nick.
====
Iıve never used the equation library on the 48, so Iım not
sure how
eql49 should work. When I start it, the menus come up Ŝne
(although
the version at the top is 2.6 even though the lib Ŝlename is
2.7).
When I pick a formula and select SLV, I see the soft menus at
the
bottom for the vars, and the rpn stack at the top (Iım nit
sure this
is how it should look). If I type a number and select a soft
key, the
key does not Ŝll in like I would expect. If I then left shift
the var
I want to solve it seems to work ok. If I then select nxeq I
can move
between the formulas in the group, but I canıt seem to Ŝnd a
way to
move back up a level to select a new group of formulas. Is
this a
limitation, or is something wrong with my installation? Iım
using the
Steve
====
Behaves the same for me. I think once youıre into the solver
you have
exited eql49 so you have to start it again to select another
equation from
the library. Not sure if it would be possible to Ŝx.
Perhaps you could code a custom solver called when you exited
eql49 that
added a menu key to restart eql49. I often use additional
menu keys for
varius functions in my stored equations. eg (if I get this
right)
{ ŒY=k1*X+k2ı { X Y { \Set1\
0.7000 Œk1ı STO 0.3000 Œk2ı STO
} { \eql49\
eql49 EVAL
} } } STEQ 30.0000 MENU

Another thing Iıd like to see with eql49 is for the ENTER key
to act as OK
while in eql49. Sounds like a simple change.
Next change would be to combine the stored library, USEREQ
and directory
library modes so that the root list is a choice of these
modes.
Stephen N
> Iıve never used the equation library on the 48, so Iım not
sure how
> eql49 should work. When I start it, the menus come up Ŝne
(although
> the version at the top is 2.6 even though the lib Ŝlename
is 2.7).
> When I pick a formula and select SLV, I see the soft menus
at the
> bottom for the vars, and the rpn stack at the top (Iım nit
sure this
> is how it should look). If I type a number and select a
soft key, the
> key does not Ŝll in like I would expect. If I then left
shift the var
> I want to solve it seems to work ok. If I then select nxeq
I can move
> between the formulas in the group, but I canıt seem to Ŝnd
a way to
> move back up a level to select a new group of formulas. Is
this a
> limitation, or is something wrong with my installation? Iım
using the
>
> Steve
====
I have looked high and low for a decent example of the
operation of the
3d systems (speciŜcally fast3d) in the 49G.
None of the HP offered examples work, not one. The hp49g pdf
examples
fail. I am frustrated, but not beyond believeing that I have
screwed up.
I have done it before and likely wonıt stop until I am dead :)
I am using the 19-6 rom upgrade (so far so good...)
Additionally, could someone brieŝy explain to me what Masd
does?
Lastly, I know some briliant people read this list, and have
built these
calcs. I would just like to say \Nice job\.
Matt
====
Well, I might have enought knowledge about these 2 program to
be able to
help you...
Fast3D:
Purge the EQ, PPAR and VPAR variable (ie: remove all existing
stuff so we
start from a clean table)
in the 2D/3D menu (shift F4), choose FAST3D mode and enter
the following
equation: ŒSIN(X)*SIN(Y)ı, then press draw.
To make things bettern in the WIN menu (shift F2) enter -3 3
-3 3 for X and
Y and press draw.
you can then use the arrow, + and - and I and L to Œmoveı the
graph.
MASD:
MASD is a system-RPL and assembly compiler. ie: it allows you
to program \
the
calculator in these languages. This is much more complex than
RPL and much
more dangerous (ie: memory lost), however, it allows you to
make much \
faster
programs....
For more information, you should dig in the www.hpcal.org
website and look
for some documentation on programming in these languages...
>
> I have looked high and low for a decent example of the
operation of the
> 3d systems (speciŜcally fast3d) in the 49G.
>
> None of the HP offered examples work, not one. The hp49g
pdf examples
> fail. I am frustrated, but not beyond believeing that I
have screwed up.
> I have done it before and likely wonıt stop until I am dead
:)
>
> I am using the 19-6 rom upgrade (so far so good...)
>
> Additionally, could someone brieŝy explain to me what Masd
does?
>
> Lastly, I know some briliant people read this list, and
have built these
> calcs. I would just like to say \Nice job\.
>
> Matt
>
====
Yea, I guess you might have enough information, huh? :)
Cyrille, I am honored that you would take the time to engage
a lowly
cal. II student about his poorly run calulator, but I really
appreciate it.
Your example worked like a charm. After that worked, I went
back to the
original and (after wiping out the PPAR var and others) used
the following:
z=x^2*y-xy^3
This is the example in the manual(page 4-27 of the pdf).
It shows up as a blank screen after a few moments (10-20 sec)
of
calculating. This is to say that the screen shows a very nice
and normal
display, offering no data other than the compass in the lower
left and
the exit button in the lower right.
Is this a bug, or am I doing something else incorrectly?
Matt
>
> Well, I might have enought knowledge about these 2 program
to be able to
> help you...
>
> Fast3D:
> Purge the EQ, PPAR and VPAR variable (ie: remove all
existing stuff so we
> start from a clean table)
> in the 2D/3D menu (shift F4), choose FAST3D mode and enter
the following
> equation: ŒSIN(X)*SIN(Y)ı, then press draw.
> To make things bettern in the WIN menu (shift F2) enter -3
3 -3 3 for X \
and
> Y and press draw.
> you can then use the arrow, + and - and I and L to Œmoveı
the graph.
>
> MASD:
> MASD is a system-RPL and assembly compiler. ie: it allows
you to program \
the
> calculator in these languages. This is much more complex
than RPL and \
much
> more dangerous (ie: memory lost), however, it allows you to
make much \
faster
> programs....
> For more information, you should dig in the www.hpcal.org
website and \
look
> for some documentation on programming in these languages...
>
>
>
>>
>>I have looked high and low for a decent example of the
operation of the
>>3d systems (speciŜcally fast3d) in the 49G.
>>
>>None of the HP offered examples work, not one. The hp49g
pdf examples
>>fail. I am frustrated, but not beyond believeing that I
have screwed up.
>>I have done it before and likely wonıt stop until I am dead
:)
>>
>>I am using the 19-6 rom upgrade (so far so good...)
>>
>>Additionally, could someone brieŝy explain to me what Masd
does?
>>
>>Lastly, I know some briliant people read this list, and
have built these
>>calcs. I would just like to say \Nice job\.
>>
>>Matt
>>
>>
>
>
====
just a guess: are you entering xy as x * y?
Otherwise the calc would think you refer to
a variable called \xy\. When this variable
isnıt deŜned there will be no valid values
in your plot, hence the empty screen.
Thomas
> Yea, I guess you might have enough information, huh? :)
>
>
> Cyrille, I am honored that you would take the time to
engage a lowly
> cal. II student about his poorly run calulator, but I
really appreciate \
it.
>
> Your example worked like a charm. After that worked, I went
back to the
> original and (after wiping out the PPAR var and others)
used the \
following:
>
> z=x^2*y-xy^3
>
> This is the example in the manual(page 4-27 of the pdf).
> It shows up as a blank screen after a few moments (10-20
sec) of
> calculating. This is to say that the screen shows a very
nice and normal
> display, offering no data other than the compass in the
lower left and
> the exit button in the lower right.
>
> Is this a bug, or am I doing something else incorrectly?
>
> Matt
>
====
Matt
>
> just a guess: are you entering xy as x * y?
> Otherwise the calc would think you refer to
> a variable called \xy\. When this variable
> isnıt deŜned there will be no valid values
> in your plot, hence the empty screen.
>
> Thomas
>
> Yea, I guess you might have enough information, huh? :)
>
>
> Cyrille, I am honored that you would take the time to
engage a lowly
> cal. II student about his poorly run calulator, but I
really appreciate \
it.
>
> Your example worked like a charm. After that worked, I went
back to the \

> original and (after wiping out the PPAR var and others)
used the \
following:
>
> z=x^2*y-xy^3
>
> This is the example in the manual(page 4-27 of the pdf).
> It shows up as a blank screen after a few moments (10-20
sec) of
> calculating. This is to say that the screen shows a very
nice and normal \

> display, offering no data other than the compass in the
lower left and
> the exit button in the lower right.
>
> Is this a bug, or am I doing something else incorrectly?
>
> Matt
>
====
>
> I have looked high and low for a decent example of the
operation of the
> 3d systems (speciŜcally fast3d) in the 49G.
>
> None of the HP offered examples work, not one. The hp49g
pdf examples
> fail. I am frustrated, but not beyond believeing that I
have screwed up.
> I have done it before and likely wonıt stop until I am dead
:)
Red alert! Another suicidal tendency because of usage of the
Hp49G ;-)
To graph a fast3d plot. PURGE Ŝrst the variables EQ, PPAR and
VPAR.
They could contain some parameters that prevent the plot to
show.
Press simoultaneously [blue-shift] and [F4]. Enter your
equation and
choose plot type FAST3D. Enter the two independend variables
in the
input Ŝelds Indep: and Depnd:
Now Press simoultaneously [blue-shift] and [F2]. Enter the
appropriate
number of steps for Indep: and Depnd: (How dense the grid
will be).
Press [F5] and then [F4].
If it didnıt help could you please describe a bit more
detailed what
happens and how the HP49G reacts when you want to plot?
Greetings,
Nick.
====
For sale, two (2) HP 49G calcs located in the UK, both in
excellent
condition and one has hardly been used. Manual(s) included.
Make me a (sensible) offer...
====
What is HP-42X?
It is an HP-42S Extended MicroCode Emulator for HP-48GX/SX
and HP-49G. It
fully emulates the HP-42S calculator because it is based on
the real HP-42
ROM. Beside the emulation, I added some advanced features
(like 96K of RAM
and 31K of port memory) to the original speciŜcations.
Details on how to get it as well as some screen shots are on
my homepage
http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com...
There are few variations of HP-42X according to the various
calculator
conŜgurations and different user needs. These are:
HP42X48: The FINAL version for HP-48GX with a 128K RAM card
in Slot1 and
>=128K RAM card in Slot2. Uses one RAM card for the
HP-42/Emulator ROM and
another for the HP-42/Emulator RAM.
HP42X48D: The DEMO version for HP-48GX with only one >=128K
RAM card in
either Slot1 or Slot2. Uses RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator
ROM and main
calculator RAM for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. Destroys some
parts of main
calculator RAM!
HP42X48L: The FINAL version for HP-48GX with only one >=128K
RAM card in
either Slot1 or Slot2. Uses RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator
ROM and Port0
for the HP-42/Emulator RAM.
HP42X48S: The FINAL version for HP-48SX with a 128K RAM card
in Port1 and
another 128K RAM card in Port2. Uses one RAM card for the
HP-42/Emulator \
ROM
and another for the HP-42/Emulator RAM.
HP42X49: The FINAL version for HP-49G with both banks of
Port1 empty. Uses
one bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and another for the
HP-42/Emulator RAM
(uses the whole Port1).
HP42X49D: The DEMO version for HP-49G with only one bank of
Port1 empty.
Uses this bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and and main
calculator RAM for
the HP-42/Emulator RAM. Destroys some parts of main
calculator RAM!
HP42X49L: The FINAL version for HP-49G with only one bank of
Port1 empty.
Uses this bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and Port0 for the
HP-42/Emulator
RAM. This version is especially suitable for use with HP-41X
because it
allows you to have both HP-41X and HP-42X installed together
(into Port1).
I am planning one maintenance release of HP-42X for october.
It will \
contain
Ŝxes for all bugs which will (eventually) be discovered as
well as the
following commands:
SAVE for exporting the HP-42 program to HP-48/49,
LOAD for importing the HP-42 program from HP-48/49,
SAVEP for saving the HP-42 program to port memory,
LOADP for loading the HP-42 program from port memory,
PURGE for deleting the HP-42 program from port memory and
CATP for displaying all programs contained in the port memory.
Registered users will get the maintenance release for free
when it will be
released.
====
On Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:45:56 +0200, \HrastProgrammer\
<groton@vip.hr>
>What is HP-42X?
>
>It is an HP-42S Extended MicroCode Emulator for HP-48GX/SX
and HP-49G. It
>fully emulates the HP-42S calculator because it is based on
the real HP-42
>ROM. Beside the emulation, I added some advanced features
(like 96K of RAM
>and 31K of port memory) to the original speciŜcations.
So I guess this means HP has freely released the 42S ROM for
commercial and non-commercial use alike?
-------------------------------------------------------------
---------------\
---
Jonathan Busby - <jdb@SNMAPOhouston.rr.com>
before replying.
====
> So I guess this means HP has freely released the 42S ROM for
> commercial and non-commercial use alike?
>
No, but you must dump the ROM from your HP-42S and use it
with the emulator
...
====
You know, you are really making it difŜcult for me to resist
buying this
from you. :-)
Gene
--
* All opinions herein expressed are mine and *
* mine alone. You may choose to ignore them *
* but I own them. *
> What is HP-42X?
>
> It is an HP-42S Extended MicroCode Emulator for HP-48GX/SX
and HP-49G. It
> fully emulates the HP-42S calculator because it is based on
the real \
HP-42
> ROM. Beside the emulation, I added some advanced features
(like 96K of \
RAM
> and 31K of port memory) to the original speciŜcations.
>
> Details on how to get it as well as some screen shots are
on my homepage
> http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com...
>
> There are few variations of HP-42X according to the various
calculator
> conŜgurations and different user needs. These are:
>
> HP42X48: The FINAL version for HP-48GX with a 128K RAM card
in Slot1 and
>=128K RAM card in Slot2. Uses one RAM card for the
HP-42/Emulator ROM \
and
> another for the HP-42/Emulator RAM.
>
> HP42X48D: The DEMO version for HP-48GX with only one >=128K
RAM card in
> either Slot1 or Slot2. Uses RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator
ROM and main
> calculator RAM for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. Destroys some
parts of main
> calculator RAM!
>
> HP42X48L: The FINAL version for HP-48GX with only one
>=128K RAM card in
> either Slot1 or Slot2. Uses RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator
ROM and Port0
> for the HP-42/Emulator RAM.
>
> HP42X48S: The FINAL version for HP-48SX with a 128K RAM
card in Port1 and
> another 128K RAM card in Port2. Uses one RAM card for the
HP-42/Emulator
ROM
> and another for the HP-42/Emulator RAM.
>
> HP42X49: The FINAL version for HP-49G with both banks of
Port1 empty. \
Uses
> one bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and another for the
HP-42/Emulator \
RAM
> (uses the whole Port1).
>
> HP42X49D: The DEMO version for HP-49G with only one bank of
Port1 empty.
> Uses this bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and and main
calculator RAM for
> the HP-42/Emulator RAM. Destroys some parts of main
calculator RAM!
>
> HP42X49L: The FINAL version for HP-49G with only one bank
of Port1 empty.
> Uses this bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and Port0 for the
\
HP-42/Emulator
> RAM. This version is especially suitable for use with
HP-41X because it
> allows you to have both HP-41X and HP-42X installed
together (into \
Port1).
>
> I am planning one maintenance release of HP-42X for
october. It will
contain
> Ŝxes for all bugs which will (eventually) be discovered as
well as the
> following commands:
>
> SAVE for exporting the HP-42 program to HP-48/49,
> LOAD for importing the HP-42 program from HP-48/49,
> SAVEP for saving the HP-42 program to port memory,
> LOADP for loading the HP-42 program from port memory,
> PURGE for deleting the HP-42 program from port memory and
> CATP for displaying all programs contained in the port
memory.
>
> Registered users will get the maintenance release for free
when it will \
be
> released.
>
>
>
>
====
If anyone is interested I am selling both books on half.com
they have never
been used and are in exhalent condition. I am also selling my
hp49 calc
(id94202887) it is a new replacement calc from hp barely
used. it comes \
with
2 cases, cable to connect to computer, both manuals and the
pocket guide,
also a costome made padded crash proof case I made from a
sears craftsman
tool case I got the idea from a rev post. anyway its all
there if u are
interested
Reply-To: halfordf@colorado.edu
====
What gives???
Forrest
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<bertman691@attbi.com>
(reason: 550 Invalid recipient: <bertman691@attbi.com>)
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to gateway.attbi.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<bertman691@attbi.com>
<<< 550 Invalid recipient: <bertman691@attbi.com>
550 5.1.1 <bertman691@attbi.com>... User unknown
>If anyone is interested I am selling both books on half.com
they have \
never
>been used and are in exhalent condition. I am also selling
my hp49 calc
>(id94202887) it is a new replacement calc from hp barely
used. it comes \
with
>2 cases, cable to connect to computer, both manuals and the
pocket guide,
>also a costome made padded crash proof case I made from a
sears craftsman
>tool case I got the idea from a rev post. anyway its all
there if u are
>interested
>
>
>
====
I already said that the next marathon would be the Calculus
Marathon
and I already had started working on it, but I noticed that
one can
understand better Calculus when one has already understood
limits and
limits can be understood
better if one has knowledge of series and sequences. So
instead of
publishing the calculus marathon now, I decided to bring you
the
sequences, series and
limits marathon Ŝrst, so that we can build calculus on
important
things that we deal with now. I already uploaded the document
to
hpcalc, but it will be available when Eric does the next
update, so if
I hope you enjoy it, though this time it is much programming,
as the
HP49G has not many capabilities for sets, sequences and
series built
in. (At least not those which are needed by this marathon.)
In case you discover something that goes wrong, I would be
glad to
hear from you and try to correct the programs.
Sorry that it took so long until it was ready, but it was
hard and I
had vacations. (Nick has that too ;-))
Greetings,
Nick.
P.S.: BTW, the programs that come with the marathon show many
many
things while they are working, and they keep ŝashing \
messages and
display formulae and the like. Do you think, the greek gov.
could take
the programs for games? ;-)
====
> P.S.: BTW, the programs that come with the marathon show
many many
> things while they are working, and they keep ŝas?hing
messages and
> display formulae and the like. Do you think, the greek gov.
could take
> the programs for games? ;-)
Hehe, I donıt know about that, but I know that my 49G is
outlawed
for having Sokoban, and my Nokia 3330 (which, BTW, rules) for
having
Snake etc.
It is, however, always nice seeing in which innovative ways a
Parliament
member can ridicule itself; trully creative.
--
Al. Andreou <ee4299 at ee.teiath.gr>.
``We demand rigidly deŜned areas of doubt and
uncertainity.ıı. . . . . . \
42
====
> P.S.: BTW, the programs that come with the marathon show
many many
> things while they are working, and they keep ŝas?hing
messages and
> display formulae and the like. Do you think, the greek gov.
could take
> the programs for games? ;-)
>
> Hehe, I donıt know about that, but I know that my 49G is
outlawed
> for having Sokoban, and my Nokia 3330 (which, BTW, rules)
for having
> Snake etc.
>
> It is, however, always nice seeing in which innovative ways
a Parliament
> member can ridicule itself; trully creative.
LOL! Just wonde how/when/what Harris will say ;-)
Greetings,
Nick.
====
I just aquired a HP49G and am diligently learning how to use
it.
One thing that is driving me nuts is that Iım trying to graph
simple
functions such as a Sin(x) or even an equation of 2x+1.
Whatıs wrong is
that \x\ has suddenly taken on a value of -6.5 and I canıt
Ŝgure out why \
or
how to stop it.
Any quick recommendations would be deeply appreciated before
my frustration
takes me over the edge.
====
Nevermind. I was being brain-dead.
> I just aquired a HP49G and am diligently learning how to
use it.
>
> One thing that is driving me nuts is that Iım trying to
graph simple
> functions such as a Sin(x) or even an equation of 2x+1.
Whatıs wrong is
> that \x\ has suddenly taken on a value of -6.5 and I canıt
Ŝgure out \
why
or
> how to stop it.
>
> Any quick recommendations would be deeply appreciated
before my
frustration
> takes me over the edge.
>
>
====
to program it (in sysRPL) but the problem is that there is no
help for
the sysRPL of the HP40. I tried reading Programming in \
System RPL
but this is a HP48 manual. I also have the entrypoints list
for the
HP40 but there are still a lot of differences between hp40
and 48.
There are some commands in hp40 that dont exist in hp48 (or
have
different names), and there are commands in hp48 that donıt
exist int
hp40 (or they are also called differently or used in other
way). I
would realy like to know if there are any resources on hp40
sysRPL
programming becouse the hp48 book was usefull but it isnıt
enough.
Help me please!
====
> ... Iım still wondering that one needs so many key
assignments that
> he/she doesnıt remember them.
> On the HP-48, I have a special CST menu with one and a half
pages,
> and all utilities I need only a few key strokes away.
Raymond, using CST instead of key-assignments wouldnıt
help the normal user. How does he then invoke the various
standard assignment of shifted or non-shifted menu keys?
IMHO, a serious user of the HP48 (and the more of the 49)
cannot live without clever key assignments.
Since my 49 was stolen and Iım unsuccesful in trying to
buy a new China made HP49 - no good hints in this NG :-(
I returned to my 48GX, with pleasure I must confess ...
I just Ŝnished a new edition of the 48-Keyman (vs. 9.2002).
A fundamental addition is a key-recorder. A record executes
also keys from closed environements like the interactive
stack.
Thus, it is no problem anymore to program the UP-arrow key in
such a way that if UP is longhold one drives at once to the
top
stack level - just by collecting the key sequence
[UP][RS][UP].
Very economical if the stack is large.

The 48-keyman comes with a new Ŝle TopKeys. And maybe
key-mufŝes like you will eventually be convinced :-)
Since hpcalc.org is inactive at present, get it from
ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/hp48/keys

- Wolfgang
====
> IMHO, a serious user of the HP48 (and the more of the 49)
> cannot live without clever key assignments.
So I guess Iıve never been a serious user, as Iıve almost
never used the
USER keyboard mode.
====
> IMHO, a serious user of the HP48 (and the more of the 49)
> cannot live without clever key assignments.
> So I guess Iıve never been a serious user, as Iıve almost
never used the
> USER keyboard mode.
...because the hp49 keyboard has been designed by you for
you?!
Jo-king :-P
I participated in it as well ;-)
But itıs true Iıve *never* used the USER keyboard on either
48 or 49, \
personally.
To each his own,
Gerald.
====
> IMHO, a serious user of the HP48 (and the more of the 49)
> cannot live without clever key assignments.

> So I guess Iıve never been a serious user, as Iıve almost
never used the
> USER keyboard mode.
Indeed, what you guess seems to be true;
and in this respect youıre in best company
with my friend Raymond Hellstern :-)

For me it is obvious that you never seriously
worked with the calculator but with emulators
(as does Raymond who uses his Hp41 if heıs
forced to do some calculations). Why I guess
so? Compare the Interactive stack menus, for
instance. True, you added some useful stuff
for very large stacks like GOTO, but if you
would have ever been seriously working on the
HP48, you would not have changed the clever
order the 48 interactive stack menu options but
added new ones just at the end of the menu.
And you would probably not have changed the
very ergometric position of the 48-ENTER key
(not talking on the rest of the keyboard).
For users who like a rich keyboard like P. Karp
and others I created Keyman. Why donıt you load
this and the new TopKeys from my HP48 site?
Youıll convince yourself how useful are the
righshift-hold menu keys for quoting, etc. None
of the 24 assignments proposed by TopKeys does
interfere with the standard function of a key.
- Wolfgang
====
> For me it is obvious that you never seriously
> worked with the calculator but with emulators
> (as does Raymond who uses his Hp41 if heıs
> forced to do some calculations). Why I guess
> so? Compare the Interactive stack menus, for
> instance. True, you added some useful stuff
> for very large stacks like GOTO, but if you
> would have ever been seriously working on the
> HP48, you would not have changed the clever
> order the 48 interactive stack menu options but
> added new ones just at the end of the menu.
And thatıs where you are entirely wrong...
Iıve started to work with emulators at HP, and about one year
after I \
joined
there, simply because there wasnıt any descent emulators at
all.
You also seem to forget that the interactive stack comes
straight from the
programmed ENTIRELY on the HP48 itself using the StringWriter
editor also
program ENTIRELY on the HP48G (started on the HP48S).
Never used any pcs or emulators to program my HP48 (didnıt
even have a
computer)
So you should revisit your guesses..
====
> For me it is obvious that you never seriously
> worked with the calculator but with emulators
> (as does Raymond who uses his Hp41 if heıs
> forced to do some calculations). Why I guess
> so? Compare the Interactive stack menus, for
> instance. True, you added some useful stuff
> for very large stacks like GOTO, but if you
> would have ever been seriously working on the
> HP48, you would not have changed the clever
> order the 48 interactive stack menu options but
> added new ones just at the end of the menu.
>
> And thatıs where you are entirely wrong...
> Iıve started to work with emulators at HP, and about one
year after I \
joined
> there, simply because there wasnıt any descent emulators at
all.
> You also seem to forget that the interactive stack comes
straight from \
the
> programmed ENTIRELY on the HP48 itself using the
StringWriter editor also
> program ENTIRELY on the HP48G (started on the HP48S).
> Never used any pcs or emulators to program my HP48 (didnıt
even have a
> computer) So you should revisit your guesses..
not at all. Most people programmed in the early 90th
at the real 48, at least they made hardtests of their
creations on the real 48. Iım talking here on the HP49.
Remember that many users switched from the 48 to the 49
*without* having the slightest idea on Metakernel. And
these (including myself) had to get used, e.g., to the
new, less intuitive appl menu of the interactive stack.
For you this was no problem because you used Metakernel
the keyboard, one should compare the 49 with the 48 *in
its original state* only.

Clearly, the above is perhaps not an essential issue
for an advanced user. The 49 has so many new features
that will last years to govern them all. A surprisingly
seldom mentioned advantage over the 48 is the display
of upper- and lowercase letters in menus. These show
at least 5 letters of any long name, not so on the 48.
IMHO, this machine can compete with the HP49 only with
two additional RAM cards in the ports, with plenty of
interface & OS software (not talking on Math tools).
- Wolfgang
====
\Wolfgang Rautenberg\ <raut@math.fu-berlin.de> escribi\.97 en
el mensaje
> IMHO, this machine (hp 48GX) can compete with the HP49 only
with
> two additional RAM cards in the ports, with plenty of
> interface & OS software (not talking on Math tools).
>
> - Wolfgang
This is my view, too.
If I had a 49, Iıll probably be happy... but with my 48 with
1280kb, MK,
Erable, Alg48 and YEARS of my own programs and CAS updates,
keyboard, \
menus,
etc, etc, I donıt think I will buy a 49...
Really, this machine competes with the 49
====
> This is my view, too.
> If I had a 49, Iıll probably be happy... but with my 48
with 1280kb, MK,
> Erable, Alg48 and YEARS of my own programs and CAS updates,
keyboard,
menus,
> etc, etc, I donıt think I will buy a 49...
> Really, this machine competes with the 49
For sure, but at what cost ??
Your set-up is worth hundreds more than a HP49G...
====
> For sure, but at what cost ??
> Your set-up is worth hundreds more than a HP49G...
>
HP RAM cards are veeeery expensive (I have one of 128kb) but
there are \
cards
from Klotz, Cynox that have reasonable prices...
hate it...)
====
>> This is my view, too.
>> If I had a 49, Iıll probably be happy... but with my 48
with 1280kb, MK,
>> Erable, Alg48 and YEARS of my own programs and CAS
updates, keyboard,
> menus,
>> etc, etc, I donıt think I will buy a 49...
>> Really, this machine competes with the 49
> For sure, but at what cost ??
> Your set-up is worth hundreds more than a HP49G...
Not necessarily. If I add a 1Mb card, Iıll have the same
hardware setup
as R Lion, and that would would bring the cost of my setup
(the 48GX
and two RAM cards) to US $222.27. Thatıs not \hundreds more.\
Plus,
it has expansion slots... and an IR port... and plastic keys
whose labels
donıt wear off... and a big ENTER key in the right place...
and a screen
that doesnıt display rainbows... and it looks like a serious
engineering
tool rather than like a teenagerıs toy. (I still think itıs
not quite
as attractive as the HP-41, but itıs far more attractive than
the 49.
The keyboard has nearly the same feel as the 41, too.)
--
Wayne Brown | \When your tailıs in a crack, you improvise
fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if youıre good enough. Otherwise you
give
| your pelt to the trapper.\
\e^(i*pi) = -1\ -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, \
\Silverlock\
====
Seen:
> you would probably not have changed the
> very ergometric position of the 48-ENTER key
Unless your \ergometric\ marketing department
wanted you to make it look like a TI product,
which now it does ;)
I wonder why TI never got the idea of making things like HP,
though?
Greshamıs law rules again.
http://paws.wcu.edu/mulligan/www/gresham.html
\The course our city runs is the same towards men and money.
She has true and worthy sons. She has Ŝne new gold
and ancient silver, coins untouched with alloys,
each well minted, tested each and ringing clear.
Yet we never use them! Others pass from hand to hand,
sorry brass just struck last week and branded with a wretched
brand.
So with men we know for upright, blameless lives and noble
names.
These we spurn for men of brass.\ [Aristophanes \The Frogs\
405 B.C.]
http://www.mum.edu
.
====
\Wolfgang Rautenberg\ <raut@math.fu-berlin.de> escribi\.97 en
el mensaje
> For users who like a rich keyboard like P. Karp
> and others I created Keyman.
Your Keyman (also your Unitman) lets me have MY 48 Keyboard.
own menu system, etc.
USR mode is always set in my calculator.
====
Sorry to hear you canıt Ŝnd a chinese model replacement for
your HP49.
Here in Australia the HP agent is still selling HP49ıs. The
last I knew
they were chinese models but this may have changed. Would be
very
international to buy an American calculator made in China
from Australia \
for
Germany, perhaps the UN could help.
Stephen N
> ... Iım still wondering that one needs so many key
assignments that
> he/she doesnıt remember them.
> On the HP-48, I have a special CST menu with one and a half
pages,
> and all utilities I need only a few key strokes away.
>
> Raymond, using CST instead of key-assignments wouldnıt
> help the normal user. How does he then invoke the various
> standard assignment of shifted or non-shifted menu keys?
> IMHO, a serious user of the HP48 (and the more of the 49)
> cannot live without clever key assignments.
>
> Since my 49 was stolen and Iım unsuccesful in trying to
> buy a new China made HP49 - no good hints in this NG :-(
> I returned to my 48GX, with pleasure I must confess ...
>
> I just Ŝnished a new edition of the 48-Keyman (vs. 9.2002).
> A fundamental addition is a key-recorder. A record executes
> also keys from closed environements like the interactive
stack.
> Thus, it is no problem anymore to program the UP-arrow key
in
> such a way that if UP is longhold one drives at once to the
top
> stack level - just by collecting the key sequence
[UP][RS][UP].
> Very economical if the stack is large.
>
> The 48-keyman comes with a new Ŝle TopKeys. And maybe
> key-mufŝes like you will eventually be convinced :-)
> Since hpcalc.org is inactive at present, get it from
> ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/hp48/keys
>
> - Wolfgang
Reply-To: \Veli-Pekka Nousiainen\ <DROP_vpn@welho.com>
====
How about releasing a 41-Ŝed version of the Keyman?!
Some technique would reveal the keyassignment.
Say double-click and double-click&hold for
\normal\ shift and shift&hold - respectively.
I would use this \KEYMAN Xmas edition\
not to have more keylevels, but to remember the assignments,
which would be seen on the status area (or a simple <empty>).
PS: Can I now have keyassignments in my HP 48GX
in ANY Environment??
X
> A fundamental addition is a key-recorder. A record executes
> also keys from closed environements like the interactive
stack.
> Thus, it is no problem anymore to program the UP-arrow key
in
> such a way that if UP is longhold one drives at once to the
top
> stack level - just by collecting the key sequence
[UP][RS][UP].
> Very economical if the stack is large.
X
====
> PS: Can I now have keyassignments in my HP 48GX
> in ANY Environment??
One can assign a key in such a way that it does
different things depending on whether in default mode,
in edit mode, in PRG mode and in Immediate entry mode.
However, it is impossible to assign a key to do still
other things in closed environements like the graphic
mode, the interactive stack, etc. This is impossible
since these environements are Parametrized Outer Loops
which have their own complete control on the keyboard.
These remarks hold for both, the 48 and the 49.

Bye, Wolfgang
====
Then I challenge you Professor Rautenberg
to show you true talents (which I donıt posses)
and give us EQWKEYMAN, MTRWKEYMAN,..
Is it possible to hack into system that way?
system hooks (like FILER) to us all.
> PS: Can I now have keyassignments in my HP 48GX
> in ANY Environment??
>
> One can assign a key in such a way that it does
> different things depending on whether in default mode,
> in edit mode, in PRG mode and in Immediate entry mode.
> However, it is impossible to assign a key to do still
> other things in closed environements like the graphic
> mode, the interactive stack, etc. This is impossible
> since these environements are Parametrized Outer Loops
> which have their own complete control on the keyboard.
>
> These remarks hold for both, the 48 and the 49.
>
> Bye, Wolfgang
====
Heyo-
Iım looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator (15c,
41series,
32sii, anything) for windows CE machines.
SpeciŜcally, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince
2.11 on Jornada \

6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720.
--
while E <<koyote>>
====
EV41 emulator: http://www.hp41.org
GNU EMU48 (supports all graphical calculators from HP):
http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/
There are other simple calculators that support RPN for
WINCE, itıs
the case of CoolCalc
There are many other FreeWare RPN calculators available, you
can
search at http://ppcf.mklabs.com/ or in any one of the usual
places.
Paulo Pinheiro
> Heyo-
>
> Iım looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator (15c,
41series,
> 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines.
> SpeciŜcally, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince
2.11 on \
Jornada
> 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720.
====
> EV41 emulator: http://www.hp41.org
> GNU EMU48 (supports all graphical calculators from HP):
> http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/
> There are other simple calculators that support RPN for
WINCE, itıs
> the case of CoolCalc
Œm having trouble with this. Perhpas I should have been more
clear.
I have a 320LX with WinCE 1.0, one with WinCE 2.0, a jornada
720, and
access to a 680. None of these are Pocket PC Windows
machines. This is
diŜcult to explain. The machines I mention all have Keyboards
and long
horizontal, short vertical displays. Many bits of code made
to run on
Pocket PC machines will work on Handheld PC machines. I am
trying, perhaps
I will get one of these to function properly.
> There are many other FreeWare RPN calculators available,
you can
> search at http://ppcf.mklabs.com/ or in any one of the
usual places.
>
> Paulo Pinheiro
>
>
>> Heyo-
>>
>> Iım looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator
(15c, 41series,
>> 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines.
>> SpeciŜcally, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince
2.11 on
>> Jornada 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720.
--
while E <<koyote>>
====
OK, I really donıt know much about the differences between
HPC and
PPC, because some times the programs work in both machines.
The program EMU48 works in WinCE >=2.0, because it runs
Œperfectlyı in
a Compaq C-800 (MIPS, WinCE 2.0), and applying an horizontal
skin it
Ŝts quite well in that display, letting you run HP48/49/38,...
http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/ So it should be no problem
with the
Jornada 720
There are XPander http://www.saltire.com/xpander.html but I
think it
is PPC only even if it runs in MIPS and SH3.
You have CoolCalc http://www.applian.com/hpc/CoolCalc/ that
works in
HPC too, donıt know if is programmable,
Paulo Pinheiro
>
> EV41 emulator: http://www.hp41.org
> GNU EMU48 (supports all graphical calculators from HP):
> http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/
> There are other simple calculators that support RPN for
WINCE, itıs
> the case of CoolCalc
> Œm having trouble with this. Perhpas I should have been
more clear.
>
> I have a 320LX with WinCE 1.0, one with WinCE 2.0, a
jornada 720, and
> access to a 680. None of these are Pocket PC Windows
machines. This is
> diŜcult to explain. The machines I mention all have
Keyboards and long
> horizontal, short vertical displays. Many bits of code made
to run on
> Pocket PC machines will work on Handheld PC machines. I am
trying, perhaps \

> I will get one of these to function properly.
>
>
> There are many other FreeWare RPN calculators available,
you can
> search at http://ppcf.mklabs.com/ or in any one of the
usual places.
>
> Paulo Pinheiro
>
>
>> Heyo-
>>
>> Iım looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator
(15c, 41series,
>> 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines.
>> SpeciŜcally, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince
2.11 on
>> Jornada 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720.
====
Or use Calc 98 get it at
http://www.calculator.org/download.html it can do
RPN and it runs on Windows 9x,NT,2k,XP and PPC
JP
> OK, I really donıt know much about the differences between
HPC and
> PPC, because some times the programs work in both machines.
>
> The program EMU48 works in WinCE >=2.0, because it runs
Œperfectlyı in
> a Compaq C-800 (MIPS, WinCE 2.0), and applying an
horizontal skin it
> Ŝts quite well in that display, letting you run
HP48/49/38,...
> http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/ So it should be no
problem with the
> Jornada 720
>
> There are XPander http://www.saltire.com/xpander.html but I
think it
> is PPC only even if it runs in MIPS and SH3.
>
> You have CoolCalc http://www.applian.com/hpc/CoolCalc/ that
works in
> HPC too, donıt know if is programmable,
>
> Paulo Pinheiro
>
>
>
> EV41 emulator: http://www.hp41.org
> GNU EMU48 (supports all graphical calculators from HP):
> http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/
> There are other simple calculators that support RPN for
WINCE, itıs
> the case of CoolCalc
> Œm having trouble with this. Perhpas I should have been
more clear.
>
> I have a 320LX with WinCE 1.0, one with WinCE 2.0, a
jornada 720, and
> access to a 680. None of these are Pocket PC Windows
machines. This is
> diŜcult to explain. The machines I mention all have
Keyboards and long
> horizontal, short vertical displays. Many bits of code made
to run on
> Pocket PC machines will work on Handheld PC machines. I am
trying,
perhaps
> I will get one of these to function properly.
>
>
> There are many other FreeWare RPN calculators available,
you can
> search at http://ppcf.mklabs.com/ or in any one of the
usual places.
>
> Paulo Pinheiro
>
>
>> Heyo-
>>
>> Iım looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator
(15c, \
41series,
>> 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines.
>> SpeciŜcally, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince
2.11 on
>> Jornada 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720.
>
====
\Paulo Pinheiro\ <p_pinhas@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> [..]
> Heyo-
>
> Iım looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator (15c,
41series,
> 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines.
> SpeciŜcally, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince
2.11 on
Jornada
> 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720.
>
>
By the way,
the Jornada 690 has Omnisolve built-in.
This is a multi-mode calculator.
It can be switched to RPN,
and in this mode itıs a simulation of a calc near the 11C,
with (at least) one difference: the arithmetic keys (+,-,*,/)
are not in the same order as on the real 11C.
Otherwise, itıs real nice.
The only drawback: Itıs not programmable;-)
Raymond
====
> EV41 emulator: http://www.hp41.org
> GNU EMU48 (supports all graphical calculators from HP):
> http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/
> There are other simple calculators that support RPN for
WINCE, itıs
> the case of CoolCalc
> There are many other FreeWare RPN calculators available,
you can
> search at http://ppcf.mklabs.com/ or in any one of the
usual places.
>
> Paulo Pinheiro
>
>
> Heyo-
>
> Iım looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator (15c,
41series,
> 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines.
> SpeciŜcally, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince
2.11 on \
Jornada
> 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720.
New skin for emu48CE can discharge them in my it paginates
www.geocities.com/jaimezacalcs/hp/pc/skinhp3-4x.htm
www.geocities.com/jaimezacalcs/hp/pc/emuhp3-4x.htm
Jaime Meza
====
Sorry, but I canıt Ŝnd the product series function on my HP49.
P(i^2,i,1,100)=1^2 * 2^2 * 3^2 * 4^2 ... * 100^2
Iım not sure wether \product series\ are the right words.
Its like the summation series but with muliplication.
Can anybody give me a hint?
thanks
toralf
====
> Sorry, but I canıt Ŝnd the product series function on my
HP49.
>
> P(i^2,i,1,100)=1^2 * 2^2 * 3^2 * 4^2 ... * 100^2
>
> Iım not sure wether \product series\ are the right words.
> Its like the summation series but with muliplication.
These is dark-side thoughts. Put them away!
On a more serious note, this function does not exist on the
HP49G. The TI
word for it is \Product function\. You can emulate it with a
user-deŜned
function on your HP49G like this:
<< -> a b c d << a b Œbı = SUBST 1 c d FOR b OVER EVAL * NEXT
NIP >>> ŒPı
STO
Now ŒP(X^2,X,1,4)ı EVAL will return 576. In RPN terms, the
syntax is ŒX^2ı
ŒXı 1 4 P -> 576.
Mind you that this does not provide the symbolic part of such
a function -
for example P(EXP(X^2)/2,X,1,Y) wonıt be evaluated like on
the TIs (in the
HP program above, the limits have to be numeric).
====
Correct, I mean the product function from the TIs.
Are there any reasons why the HP49 donıt have this function?
Toralf
>>Sorry, but I canıt Ŝnd the product series function on my
HP49.
>>
>> P(i^2,i,1,100)=1^2 * 2^2 * 3^2 * 4^2 ... * 100^2
>>
>>Iım not sure wether \product series\ are the right words.
>>Its like the summation series but with muliplication.
>
>
> These is dark-side thoughts. Put them away!
>
> On a more serious note, this function does not exist on the
HP49G. The TI
> word for it is \Product function\. You can emulate it with
a \
user-deŜned
> function on your HP49G like this:
>
> << -> a b c d << a b Œbı = SUBST 1 c d FOR b OVER EVAL *
NEXT NIP >>> \
ŒPı
> STO
>
> Now ŒP(X^2,X,1,4)ı EVAL will return 576. In RPN terms, the
syntax is \
ŒX^2ı
> ŒXı 1 4 P -> 576.
>
> Mind you that this does not provide the symbolic part of
such a function \
-
> for example P(EXP(X^2)/2,X,1,Y) wonıt be evaluated like on
the TIs (in \
the
> HP program above, the limits have to be numeric).
>
>
====
> Are there any reasons why the HP49 donıt have this function?
Because Bernard Parisse didnıt code it. There have obviously
not been too
high a demand for this function, hence it was never
introduced. I wanted \
it,
;-) - that makes three persons over 2-3 years.
I postulate that the symbolic output of the Product function
is very very
rarely used - even in school. This means that the short
program I provided
earlier will be sufŜcient 99.99...9% of the time. It can be
optimized
heavily for speed, but I donıt feel like doing it. You can
though, as an
exercise :-)
====
Ok, I unterstand ...
<< 1 SEQ piLIST >>
piLIST => [MTH] => [LIST] => [piLIST]
SEQ => LS [PRG] => [LIST] => [PROC]=> [NXT] => [SEQ]
4:
x^2
3:
x
2:
1
1:
4
=>
1:
576

Toralf
>>Are there any reasons why the HP49 donıt have this function?
>
>
> Because Bernard Parisse didnıt code it. There have
obviously not been too
> high a demand for this function, hence it was never
introduced. I wanted \
it,
> ;-) - that makes three persons over 2-3 years.
>
> I postulate that the symbolic output of the Product
function is very very
> rarely used - even in school. This means that the short
program I \
provided
> earlier will be sufŜcient 99.99...9% of the time. It can be
optimized
> heavily for speed, but I donıt feel like doing it. You can
though, as an
> exercise :-)
>
>
====
> << 1 SEQ piLIST >>
A beautiful sulotion as always from John, albeit a little
slower.
====
Yes, JHM \hint\ is beautiful too (and small) but your
proposal is also
very nice ;-) (and a little faster)
- END topic
Toralf
>><< 1 SEQ piLIST >>
>
>
> A beautiful sulotion as always from John, albeit a little
slower.
>
>
====
Iım not sure if this really counts as a series. It looks like
(100!)^2.
A coomon product series is a geometric progression, which is
the sum of
terms, each term made up from a product with a common ratio.
What you have
described is not what would normally be described as a
series, IMHO.
Anyone else care to chime in?
> Sorry, but I canıt Ŝnd the product series function on my
HP49.
>
> P(i^2,i,1,100)=1^2 * 2^2 * 3^2 * 4^2 ... * 100^2
>
> Iım not sure wether \product series\ are the right words.
> Its like the summation series but with muliplication.
>
> Can anybody give me a hint?
>
> thanks
>
> toralf
>
====
They sat down at the process table to
a top of form feed of Ŝche and chips and a
bucket of Baudot. Mini was in conversa-
tional mode and expanded on ambi-
guous arguments while Micro gave
occational acknowledgements although,
in real time, he was analysing the shortest
and least critical path to her entry point.
He Ŝnally settled on the old \would you
like to see my benchmark subroutine\,
but Mini was again one step ahead.
====
I recently acquired a ID947 model HP49G calculator and have
heard about
problems with the older Indonesian HP49 calculators -
primarily:
easily-scratched screen, rainbow effects, and text wearing
off on the
buttons.
Are there any screenshots on what the rainbow effect should
look like? I
have a very minor upside down rainbow that is visible in the
upper
center portion of the screen. It can only be seen directly in
daylight.
I donıt have any scratches on the screen cover - I have taken
fairly
good care of the calculator. Unfortunately, there does seem
to be some
dust collecting under the screen, and Iım not sure how to get
rid of it.
Do I have one of the infamous older Indonesian models?
I have also heard of problems with the newer Chinese HP49G
models. It
looks like I lose either way!
Any advice is appreciated.
--
Titus Barik (barik@ieee.org)
Reply-To: \Veli-Pekka Nousiainen\ <DROP_vpn@welho.com>
====
X
> have a very minor upside down rainbow that is visible in
the upper
> center portion of the screen. It can only be seen directly
in daylight.
That is it. Me too - in direct sunlight. Donıt worry - itıs
not bad at all.
> I donıt have any scratches on the screen cover - I have
taken fairly
> good care of the calculator. Unfortunately, there does seem
to be some
> dust collecting under the screen, and Iım not sure how to
get rid of it.
I donıt have scratches either. I left the plastic sheet on
forever! :-)
> Do I have one of the infamous older Indonesian models?
Yes! And I think that only some models have the key paint
wearing off.
I think that youıre ok with your calc like I have been with
mine: 3 years!!
> I have also heard of problems with the newer Chinese HP49G
models. It
Bull....!
> looks like I lose either way!
Looks like you won already - either way.
> Any advice is appreciated.
Oh! The dust?!
> Titus Barik (barik@ieee.org)
Veli-Pekka
====
> Do I have one of the infamous older Indonesian models?
> Yes! And I think that only some models have the key paint
wearing off.
I discovered what was causing the paint to wear off on some
of the
keys (f6 and ENTER) on my HP49. It had to do with taking off
and
putting on the darn platic cover! If I am not careful on how
I do
this, the edge of the cover rubs on some of the keys with the
ones at
the corners of the keyboard being more prone to be \hit\. Now
I try to
take off and insert the cover with the edge of it being
slightly at an
upward angle so it stays away from the keys. I you do it
slowly it is
easy to see whether you are hitting any keys or not.
Santos
====
Oh! So thatıs why...
I never used that translucent slide-in cover...
Do you know that you have to press from the center
in order to let it slide out easily.
>
>
> Do I have one of the infamous older Indonesian models?
>
> Yes! And I think that only some models have the key paint
wearing off.
>
>
> I discovered what was causing the paint to wear off on some
of the
> keys (f6 and ENTER) on my HP49. It had to do with taking
off and
> putting on the darn platic cover! If I am not careful on
how I do
> this, the edge of the cover rubs on some of the keys with
the ones at
> the corners of the keyboard being more prone to be \hit\.
Now I try to
> take off and insert the cover with the edge of it being
slightly at an
> upward angle so it stays away from the keys. I you do it
slowly it is
> easy to see whether you are hitting any keys or not.
>
> Santos
>
>
>
>
====
I have a data stream of know length, which I wish to store in
a
variable. (I think it has got odd parity).
Does anyone have a program I can look at, or know where I can
Ŝnd
some more info. (the HP I/O guide was not much help.
Rupert
====
> I have a data stream of know length, which I wish to store
in a
> variable. (I think it has got odd parity).
> Does anyone have a program I can look at, or know where I
can Ŝnd
> some more info. (the HP I/O guide was not much help.
Well, which calculator? What is the length of the data
stream? Youıre
probably looking for the SRECV command, and if youıre not
quite sure of
just when the data might be arriving, you might want to use
the BUFLEN
command in a DO loop. Note that both of these commands leave
it up to
you to determine what (if anything) to do about any I/O error.
Also see the PARITY command.
If youıre using a 48 and the data stream is more than 255
bytes long,
then you might want to edit the reserved variable IOPAR to
use receive
pacing, as long as the data doesnıt contain characters 19 or
17 decimal,
which would be treated as XOFF or XON signals. Otherwise,
youıll
probably either have to have the data broken up into blocks
that the
calculator can handle, or use one of the built-in Ŝle transfer
protocols.
--
James
====
Look at Joe Hornıs archives
> I have a data stream of know length, which I wish to store
in a
> variable. (I think it has got odd parity).
> Does anyone have a program I can look at, or know where I
can Ŝnd
> some more info. (the HP I/O guide was not much help.
>
> Rupert
====
I havenıt found anything in the cheesy manuals, but it seems
to be true, at
least for my machine. If the 49g is in RPN mode, pressing on
any of the \
plot
keys (Y= to TABLE) just makes it beep. Putting it into
algebraic lets me
plot. Am I brain dead, is my 49g, or is this the way itıs
supposed to be?
Doesnıt seem like it should work that way.
BTW, the calc is at 1.19-6, but it did the same thing with
1.18.
====
If you look back over this list, you will Ŝnd that the answer
is there.
Iıll save you the trouble of looking as this caused me some
trouble also.
You must hold down the shift key while hitting the F-keys.
Hope this helps,
Matt
Additionally, it sounds like you have not gotten the Advanced
users
guide. Check out Hpcalc.org(hp49 section, documentation).
They have it all.
> I havenıt found anything in the cheesy manuals, but it
seems to be true, \
at
> least for my machine. If the 49g is in RPN mode, pressing
on any of the \
plot
> keys (Y= to TABLE) just makes it beep. Putting it into
algebraic lets me
> plot. Am I brain dead, is my 49g, or is this the way itıs
supposed to be?
> Doesnıt seem like it should work that way.
>
> BTW, the calc is at 1.19-6, but it did the same thing with
1.18.
>
>
>
>
====
Can HP solve this diff. equation numerically?
yı=-100y+id(-y+10sin(2 pi 50 t))/1e-4
and where
id(vd)=1E-14*(e^(1.609E-19*vd/(1.381E-23*298))-1)
with the initial condition y(t=0)=0 .
Run t from 0 to about 0.04 to 0.1, with steps of dt=.0005 to
.002 max.
Vertical axis from -2 (y(t) is always >=0) to 12.
My TI-89 can do this using Rk, producing a graph after
several painful
minutes. Ouch! Euler fails miserably.
This is the sort of problem that I had mentioned at times
about
wondering if the calculators can do it. Unfortunately, this
is the
simplest possible case of the general class of problems which
interest
me, which usually involve systems of two or three (or more)
Ŝrst order
non-linears like this one.
These are electrical engineering problems. The equation above
generates
the waveform of a half-wave rectiŜer with capacitor Ŝlter and
resistive load. Generally the calculations are done by SPICE,
which is
optimized for stiff equations. (I noticed Runga-Kutte really
bogs down
on the corners of the solution.) SPICE uses trapezoidal or
Gear
integration, and I do it in Mathematica as well using
whatever it wants
(I think an adaptive Adams-Gear algorithm). And of course
using much
more computing horsepower than a little calculator.
It will be interesting to hear how the HP fares with this.
Comments appreciated.
--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
crobc@earthlink.net
====
> Can HP solve this diff. equation numerically?
>
> yı=-100y+id(-y+10sin(2 pi 50 t))/1e-4
>
> and where
>
> id(vd)=1E-14*(e^(1.609E-19*vd/(1.381E-23*298))-1)
>
> with the initial condition y(t=0)=0 .
>
> Run t from 0 to about 0.04 to 0.1, with steps of dt=.0005
to .002 max.
> Vertical axis from -2 (y(t) is always >=0) to 12.
>
> My TI-89 can do this using Rk, producing a graph after
several painful
> minutes. Ouch! Euler fails miserably.
I donıt understand your syntax. If you tell me what you
punched into the
TI89, I can identify your arguments.
I get this:
yı=F(y,t) ->
yı=-100*y+(1E-14*(e^(1.609E-19*(-y+10*sin(2*pi*50*t))/(1.381E
-23*298))-1))/1\

E-4
y(0)=0 initial
dt=.0005
Vertical view: [-2,12]
I donıt really get:
\Run t from 0 to about 0.04 to 0.1, with steps of dt=.0005 to
.002 max.\
====
>>Can HP solve this diff. equation numerically?
>>yı=-100y+id(-y+10sin(2 pi 50 t))/1e-4
>>and where
>>id(vd)=1E-14*(e^(1.609E-19*vd/(1.381E-23*298))-1)
>>with the initial condition y(t=0)=0 .
>>Run t from 0 to about 0.04 to 0.1, with steps of dt=.0005
to .002 max.
>>Vertical axis from -2 (y(t) is always >=0) to 12.
> I donıt understand your syntax. If you tell me what you
punched into the
> TI89, I can identify your arguments.
> I get this:
> yı=F(y,t) ->
> \
yı=-100*y+(1E-14*(e^(1.609E-19*(-y+10*sin(2*pi*50*t))/(1.381E
-23*298))-1))/1
> E-4
> y(0)=0 initial
> dt=.0005
> Vertical view: [-2,12]
> I donıt really get:
> \Run t from 0 to about 0.04 to 0.1, with steps of dt=.0005
to .002 \
max.\
Very well then, here is the more direct approach:
FLDOFF
t0=0
tmax=.1
tstep=.001
tplot=0
xmin=0
xmax=.1
xscl=0
ymin=-12
ymax=12
yscl=0
ncurves=0
diftol=.001 to .05 and various other tries.
I suppose I should have said *Step* t from 0 to 0.04 or to
0.1, with a
step size of delta_t of 0.0005 to 0.002.
Good luck!
--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
crobc@earthlink.net
====
> Good luck!
I used a delta_t of 0.0005 (200 steps).
I thought at Ŝrst that I could expect a 6-7 hours calculation
time, but \
the
graph was complete in \only\ 100 minutes.
Pretty violent differential equation, for a calculator, it
seems. MathCad 7
(yeah, I know, but it was all I had the patience to Ŝre up
;-) solves and
graphs 50000 points (delta_t of 2*10^-6) in around 2.4
seconds. The HP49G
should be able to do this (200 points) in maybe 1-3 minutes
tops. Thereıs a
little challenge for a Œ49-programmer ;-)
====
>>Good luck!
>
>
>
> I used a delta_t of 0.0005 (200 steps).
>
> I thought at Ŝrst that I could expect a 6-7 hours
calculation time, but \
the
> graph was complete in \only\ 100 minutes.
Wow.
> Pretty violent differential equation, for a calculator, it
seems. MathCad \
7
> (yeah, I know, but it was all I had the patience to Ŝre up
;-) solves \
and
> graphs 50000 points (delta_t of 2*10^-6) in around 2.4
seconds. The HP49G
> should be able to do this (200 points) in maybe 1-3 minutes
tops. Thereıs \
a
> little challenge for a Œ49-programmer ;-)
Yes, and since this is the simplest possible case of the
typical EE
circuit simulation, it looks like Iıll just have to wait
until I get a
high end PDA running some good math software or the real
SPICE to be
able to do this sort of thing in the palm of my hand. On the
PC, EEs
run these sorts of simulations, change parameters, run again,
etc., in
several second turnaround times. Canıt wait for a bunch of
minutes,
thatıs for sure.
Maybe we can try to get some quantitative benchmarks out now.
Can you accurately time say, the 200 point case from t=0 to
t=0.1, ie. a
delta_t of 0.0005? And mention exactly what hardware and
software
youıre using.
Iıll post my times:
For the equation:
yı=-100*y+id(-y+10*sin(314.159*t))/1e-4,
y[0]=0
and with the function id(vd)=1E-14*(e^(38.9411*vd)-1)
and the TI-89 parameters:
FLDOFF
t0=0
tmax=.1
tstep=.0005
tplot=0
xmin=0
xmax=.1
xscl=0
ymin=-4
ymax=12
yscl=0
ncurves=0
diftol=.001
I get 370.5 seconds on a TI-89 with 2.08 OS.
380 seconds with diftol=0.0001
Fails to complete with diftol=0.05
it in <= 0.01 seconds using Gear integration and a lot of
fussing with
accuracy parameters to get it to not overŝow/underŝow.
Good day!
--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
crobc@earthlink.net
====
How could I use Solve in case like this, in a 48G?
Eq: A = B + C
A = 8
B = 15*sin(377*Y)
C = \I would solve it\
====
There can be ANY number of solutions to this.
>How could I use Solve in case like this, in a 48G?
>
> Eq: A = B + C
> A = 8
> B = 15*sin(377*Y)
> C = \I would solve it\
====
> There can be ANY number of solutions to this.
No, there is an inŜnite number of solutions - not any number.
Thereıs only one symbolic solution though:
ŒC=8-15*SIN(377*Y)ı. In a sense
we were lucky ŒYı wasnıt deŜned - what a mess to solve it it
was ;-)
====
I sit COWrected!
>
>No, there is an inŜnite number of solutions - not any number.
====
> How could I use Solve in case like this, in a 48G?
>
> Eq: A = B + C
> A = 8
> B = 15*sin(377*Y)
> C = \I would solve it\
8 ŒAı STO Œ15*sin(377*Y)ı ŒBı STO ŒA=B+Cı EVAL ŒCı ISOL
You will Ŝnd interesting things in RS SOLVE and RS SYMBOLIC
Arnaud
====
> How could I use Solve in case like this, in a 48G?
>
> Eq: A = B + C
> A = 8
> B = 15*sin(377*Y)
> C = \I would solve it\
If you dont have Erable or Alg48 installed, do this:
8 ŒAı STO Œ15*SIN(377*Y)ı ŒBı STO ŒA=B+Cı ŒCı ISOL EVAL ->
ŒC=8-15*SIN(377*Y)ı
optionally
{A B} PURGE
afterwards.
====
\Daniel\ <armazenacao@yahoo.ca> escribi\.97 en el mensaje
> How could I use Solve in case like this, in a 48G?
>
> Eq: A = B + C
> A = 8
> B = 15*sin(377*Y)
> C = \I would solve it\
Do I miss something or do I see TWO unknowns? (C & Y)
====
Can anybody tell me how to convert from decimal degrees to
degrees minutes
seconds? Also if anyone knows sysrpl I would like to know the
command there
too.
Reply-To: \Veli-Pekka Nousiainen\ <DROP_vpn@welho.com>
====
hours to hours minutes seconds is the same, so ->HMS, HMS->,
HMS+, HMS-
AND maybe using something like Nosy you can peek into the
inner code
and maybe Ŝnd the SysRPL pointers. Extable has GETNEAR
function for \
Ŝnding
SysRPL commands by name.
I hope this helped!
> Can anybody tell me how to convert from decimal degrees to
degrees \
minutes
> seconds? Also if anyone knows sysrpl I would like to know
the command
there
> too.
>
>
====
I sold my 49G some months ago and now regret it. Before I go
off and
spend $160 for a new one, perhaps someone else here has one
they wish
to part with for a reasonable price?
-Al Arduengo
--
\Place your hand on a hot stove for a minute and it seems like
an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour and it seems like
a
minute. Thatıs relativity.\ -Albert Einstein
Reply-To: \G Savage\ <NOsavageSPAM@europa.com>
====
Does this mean that you will coming out with a spreadsheet
for the 49?
>
> I sold my 49G some months ago and now regret it. Before I
go off and
> spend $160 for a new one, perhaps someone else here has one
they wish
> to part with for a reasonable price?
>
> -Al Arduengo
> --
> \Place your hand on a hot stove for a minute and it seems
like
> an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour and it seems
like a
> minute. Thatıs relativity.\ -Albert Einstein
Reply-To: \G Savage\ <NOsavageSPAM@europa.com>
====
Oh, BTW, Œgood to see you back.
> Does this mean that you will coming out with a spreadsheet
for the 49?
>
>
>
>
> I sold my 49G some months ago and now regret it. Before I
go off and
> spend $160 for a new one, perhaps someone else here has one
they wish
> to part with for a reasonable price?
>
> -Al Arduengo
> --
> \Place your hand on a hot stove for a minute and it seems
like
> an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour and it seems
like a
> minute. Thatıs relativity.\ -Albert Einstein
>
>
====
relatively inactive in the calc programming area. When I sold
my 49,
it was to the son of another Engineer where I work. He asked
and I
Ŝgured since I hadnıt used it in some time, why keep it? It
contained
a 49 version of exAL spreadsheet in the ŝash :-(
I will probably restart the project using ideas from the 48
version of
code. My goal for exAL was always speed over looks so it
doesnıt look
as pretty as XCELL. I hope to get one for $100 or less
because I am
putting most of my free cash into my meager astronomical
hobby. Man,
is *that* ever expensive. I have also been writing a set of
utilities
for observation session planning, etc primarily in the
beginning to
assist me in getting my Messier CertiŜcate.
Rgds,
-Al
> Oh, BTW, Œgood to see you back.
>
>
> Does this mean that you will coming out with a spreadsheet
for the 49?
>
>
>
>
> I sold my 49G some months ago and now regret it. Before I
go off and
> spend $160 for a new one, perhaps someone else here has one
they wish
> to part with for a reasonable price?
>
> -Al Arduengo
> --
> \Place your hand on a hot stove for a minute and it seems
like
> an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour and it seems
like a
> minute. Thatıs relativity.\ -Albert Einstein
>
>
>
>
--
\Place your hand on a hot stove for a minute and it seems like
an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour and it seems like
a
minute. Thatıs relativity.\ -Albert Einstein
====
> I sold my 49G some months ago and now regret it. Before I
go off and
> spend $160 for a new one, perhaps someone else here has one
they wish
> to part with for a reasonable price?
I see a bunch on Ebay, starting at around USD 50.
Regard
====
answers in no time, just wanted to say thanks. Anyways, my
question:
When I enter the expression INTVX(SQRT(SQR(sin(x)+1)+
SQR(cos(x))) I cannot
get an answer. I there a way to integrate? I have heard of
EXPLN and some
other functions. How would I approach this with the HP49G?
GN
====
Check www.integrals.com.
If Mathematica cannot solve this, most likely it has no
solution.
>When I enter the expression INTVX(SQRT(SQR(sin(x)+1)+
SQR(cos(x))) I \
cannot
>get an answer. I there a way to integrate? I have heard of
EXPLN and \
some
>other functions. How would I approach this with the HP49G?
>
>GN
====
Mathematica can do it, Iıve just check it out.The solution
provided by
www.integrals.com lacks some simpliŜcation though.
>If Mathematica cannot solve this, most likely it has no
solution.
>
>
>>When I enter the expression INTVX(SQRT(SQR(sin(x)+1)+
SQR(cos(x))) I \
cannot
>>get an answer. I there a way to integrate?
====
Iıve seen that HP doesnıt sell the HP32sii on the internet
(there is
just the HP20s).
Is the 20s better than the 32sii ?
Iıve got to Ŝnd a programmable calculator but NOT graphical,
donıt
you think that the CASIO fx-5500LA is the best ?
====
\tayne\ <tayne@free.fr> escribi\.97 en el mensaje
> Iıve got to Ŝnd a programmable calculator but NOT
graphical, donıt
> you think that the CASIO fx-5500LA is the best ?
No, I donıt.
hp 15c or hp 32sII.
If you want \more\: hp 42s.
Unfortunately, none of them is still in production and you
must go to
ebay...
====
====
\tayne\ <tayne@free.fr> escribi\.97 en el mensaje
It seems as I convinced you... but I feel that my answer was
\hard\.
Iıve programmed Casioıs and Hpıs since 1981 and I really
think that RPN is
much better than algebraic and formula programming.
Good luck in your bids
====
New WinHP v3.7 Now supports HP49 native Ŝle editor format
http://winhp.sourceforge.net
http://winhp.sourceforge.net/download.htm
Jaime Meza
====
I have a small question for those of you that code
extensively in SysRPL.
Itıs a problem I had a long time ago, but I never found a
clear solution -
not even by asking here.
If I have a simple SysRPL program, say
::
CK1&Dispatch
#1
%2 %+
;
#0
SomethingElse
;
;
The above program adds 2 to its argument, if that argument is
a real,
otherwise it does something else. That something else I wonıt
to be return
its own program name, with the argument unevaluated. If I
call the program
P, the examples below will illustrate what I mean:
2.2 P -> 4.2
ŒX^2+3ı P -> ŒP(X^2+3)ı
Along the same lines it should be possible to use the program
in an
algebraic contents, like this:
Œ5.7+P(4.2)ı EVAL -> 11.9
No command in any library Iıve programmed thus far, will
accept such
algebraic containment - for example will ŒNINT(1,2,X^2,X)ı
[ENTER] result \
in
an \Invalid Syntax\ error, instead of.ıNINT(1,2,X^2,X)ı on
the stack, \
which
then could be EVALuated to 2.33333333334.
How does one go about making library commands act both like
commands, but
accept being treated like a function? Exactly like the
bulit-in ABS does -
you can enter ŒABS(-X)ı in the command line, and return it to
the stack \
with
[ENTER], or you could have -2 on the stack, and merely run
ABS (either type
it in or push the left-shifted division-key) and get 2.
Does anyone know what Iım rambling on about?
====
>
>I have a small question for those of you that code
extensively in SysRPL.
>Itıs a problem I had a long time ago, but I never found a
clear solution -
>not even by asking here.
>
>If I have a simple SysRPL program, say
>
>::
>CK1&Dispatch
>#1
>%2 %+
>;
>#0
>SomethingElse
>;
>;
>
>The above program adds 2 to its argument, if that argument
is a real,
>otherwise it does something else. That something else I
wonıt to be return
>its own program name, with the argument unevaluated. If I
call the program
>P, the examples below will illustrate what I mean:
>
>2.2 P -> 4.2
>ıX^2+3ı P -> ŒP(X^2+3)ı
>
looking for. Taking your small program as an example, here is
the
modiŜed version that accepts symbolic input (Jazz syntax) :
ASSEMBLE
CON(3) 0
RPL
xNAME P
::
CK1&Dispatch
#1
::
%2 %+
;
10
::
Π:: cknumdsptch1 :: 1GETLAM 1 SYMBN 1 ΠxFCNAPPLY 4ROLL #3+
; ;
CODE

LASTROMWDOB EQU #807D9 * #80829 for the 49.
GOSBVL =SAVPTR
D0=(5) LASTROMWDOB
A=DAT0 A
D0=A
D0=D0- 6
A=0 A
A=DAT0 X
R0=A
D0=D0+ 3
A=0 A
A=DAT0 B
R1=A
GOVLNG =Push2#Loop
ENDCODE
#>ROMPTR
>TCOMP EVAL
;
;
If the argument is a real then everything works as usual. If
itıs in
the symbolic class ( ID, LAM or SYMB ) then we need to handle
it
specially. For the symbolic case an explanation of the
cknumdsptch1
word is in order. If numeric mode (for functions) is enabled
it
reduces the object on level 1 to a number (ala ->NUM) and
evaluates
the second object after cknumdsptch1 . Otherwise, if symbolic
mode is
enabled it binds the next two objects after cknumdsptch1 to
the LAMs
xSYMfcn and xfcn respectively, explodes the object on level 1
(if itıs
a symbolic), evaluates the object bound to xSYMfcn and then
rebuilds
the symbolic with CKSYMBN. If the object on level 1 is an
equation
then this process is repeated for both sides.
With this knowledge you can probably see how the program
works. One detail that might be confusing is the code object.
I use
this to get the ROMPTR associated with the currently
executing library
routine so that changes to the order of the library routines
or the
library ID will be transparent to the program. You can hard
code the
ROMPTR if you want though.
Note: About code that gets bound to xSYMfcn. This creates a
symbolic
according to the standard representation of a non built-in
function
application ie.
SYMBOL arguments SYMBOL ID function ; numberOfArguments
xFCNAPPLY ;
One last detail that still needs explaining is the small bit
of
assembly before the library routine name declaration. This is
a
\property list\ that deŜnes various attributes of the object
that
follows it such as if itıs allowable in algebraics and many
other
properties that need not concern us here. All you need to
know is that
3 zero nibbles preceding a named library routine is the magic
formula
for making it allowable in symbolics.
>Along the same lines it should be possible to use the
program in an
>algebraic contents, like this:
>
>ı5.7+P(4.2)ı EVAL -> 11.9
>
>No command in any library Iıve programmed thus far, will
accept such
>algebraic containment - for example will ŒNINT(1,2,X^2,X)ı
[ENTER] result \
in
>an \Invalid Syntax\ error, instead of.ıNINT(1,2,X^2,X)ı on
the stack, \
which
>then could be EVALuated to 2.33333333334.
The above also takes care of this.
>
>How does one go about making library commands act both like
commands, but
>accept being treated like a function? Exactly like the
bulit-in ABS does -
>you can enter ŒABS(-X)ı in the command line, and return it
to the stack \
with
>[ENTER], or you could have -2 on the stack, and merely run
ABS (either \
type
>it in or push the left-shifted division-key) and get 2.
>
>Does anyone know what Iım rambling on about?
>
Hope this helps...
-------------------------------------------------------------
---------------\
---
Jonathan Busby - <jdb@SNMAPOhouston.rr.com>
before replying.
====
> ASSEMBLE
> CON(3) 0
> RPL
> xNAME P
> ::
Iım not that good at Jazz syntax, but I translate the above
to something
along the lines of (MASD):
CODE
CON(3) 0
ENDCODE
!RPL
::
...
This wonıt assemble, though.....I must be daft as a brick.
Well, Iıll look
====
> Iım not that good at Jazz syntax, but I translate the above
to something
> along the lines of (MASD):
>
> CODE
> CON(3) 0
> ENDCODE
> !RPL
You donıt need this.
The 3 nibbles before are used only to specify that this
command (here P) is
in fact a function. This is used by the compiler to know if
doing something
like ŒP(value)ı will be accepted or will yield a \Invalid
Syntax\ error.
Unfortunately, I donıt think CRLIB or MASD allow you to do
such thing, only
MAKEROM on the PC will. (I do not know about Jazz)
====
> Unfortunately, I donıt think CRLIB or MASD allow you to do
such thing,
only
> MAKEROM on the PC will. (I do not know about Jazz)
Arghh!! Nooo!
But I want to do it? This is one of the Ŝrst real limitations
Iıve run \
into
with the HP49G - who can and will Ŝx it? ;-)
How about if I change or add those three nibbles after
compilation? Canıt \
be
done either?
====
> Unfortunately, I donıt think CRLIB or MASD allow you to do
such thing,
> only
> MAKEROM on the PC will. (I do not know about Jazz)
>
> Arghh!! Nooo!
>
> But I want to do it? This is one of the Ŝrst real
limitations Iıve run \
into
> with the HP49G - who can and will Ŝx it? ;-)
>
> How about if I change or add those three nibbles after
compilation? Canıt \
be
> done either?
>
>
You have to write your library yourself, so that it can be
compiled
with ASM, instead of just writing the commands and invoking
CRLIB. I
have a template somewhere - but I canıt Ŝnd it this instant.
Werner
====
> How about if I change or add those three nibbles after
compilation? Canıt \
be
> done either?
adding the three nibbles is quite easy to do by hand
just hack the lib with ->H
add the three nibbles
add three to the length of the lib
rebuild the lib with H->
and recalculate the four checksum nibbles at the end
Iıll write a hacking code that does this tonight in the train
so you can do it automatically
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
> just hack the lib with ->H
> add the three nibbles
> add three to the length of the lib
> rebuild the lib with H->
> and recalculate the four checksum nibbles at the end
That wonıt be so easy.
By default MASD enters one nibble before the name deŜnition
(8) to say \
itıs
a command.
You need to replace it whith 3 characters.
So not only you need to replace a 8 with 000, but then you
will have to
recalculated all the offsets, plus the checksum.
Recalculating the offsets
is deŜnitely not a trivial task.
If I remember correctly, LIBMAKER v5.0 by Christian Bourgeois
allows you to
create such library, I donıt know if it has been ported to
the HP49 (wonıt
be difŜcult, I did the port for the HP48GX from the HP48SX).
Otherwise, you have to build your library *by hand*.
In fact, using 000 to say itıs a function is only one of the
aspect of it.
Every single bit of this value has a meaning.
If it was a command, the bits are as followed:
ASSEMBLE
CON(1) (nonALG)+0*(hasHELP)+0*(hasALIAS)+0*(hasPDATA)
RPL
hNAME xCMDAPPLY
( arg1 ... argN {cmd} #N -> {results} )
::
hasHELP is not used anymore.
Here is the source code of NEG:
ASSEMBLE
**miscdoc+***************************************************
***************\

***
** prop_list deŜning Ŝeld for an algebraic function
**+miscdoc***************************************************
***************\

***
CON(1) 0*(hasFORM)+0*(hasINTG)+0*(hasWHERE)+0*(hasVUNS)
CON(1) 0*(hasDER)+0*(hasINV)+0*(hasCOLCT)+0*(hasEXPND)
CON(1) 0*(hasHELP)+(hasPDATA)
RPL
xNAME NEG
NAMELESS xCHS
:: CK1&Dispatch ONE ( % ) %CHS
zint QNeg ( FLASHPTR )
TWO ( C% ) C%CHS
FOUR ( arry ) MATCHS
TEN ( sym ) SYMCHS
EXT UMCHS
hxs bitneg
grob NEGgrob
seco NEGPICTgrob
;
RPL
**miscdoc+***************************************************
***************\

***
** algebraic function property list elements
**+miscdoc***************************************************
***************\

***
** help data (if present) ( Textbook data )
* GDATACHS
* parse data (if present)
ASSEMBLE
=CHSpdata
CON(5) =DOHSTR
REL(5) end2
CON(1) 0
CON(1) pdOP
CON(1) pdEX
CON(1) 8 (same as * /)
end2
RPL
* derivative (if present)
* D/DCHS
* inverse (if present)
* INVCHS
* COLCT data (if present)
* EXPND data (if present)
* FORM menu (if present)
* MANMENUCSIV
* Integral Data (if present)
* WHERE Building Data (if present)
* very-unsyminner Data (if present)
----
As you can see, you can deŜne how the compiler syntax (RPL) ,
how OBJ-> is
going to work on it.
Most of the Ŝelds however have no meaning on the HP49 as the
CAS and the
decompiler now use static table.
====
> That wonıt be so easy.
> By default MASD enters one nibble before the name deŜnition
(8) to say \
itıs
> a command.
> You need to replace it whith 3 characters.
>
> So not only you need to replace a 8 with 000, but then you
will have to
> recalculated all the offsets, plus the checksum.
I added 000 after the name and before the body
and it works!!!
so from
\87B4000D9D20...\
I made
\87B4000000D9D20...\
Why does this also work?
I will change my code to do the things you mentioned
but for now you can use this.
> Recalculating the offsets
> is deŜnitely not a trivial task.
recalculating is quite easy, I admit that I forgot to mention
that in my
previous post.
you need to change the hash table and the offset to the conŜg
object
This code takes two arguments: the lib and a real/zint
the zint is the id of the rompointer that you want changed
into a function
so:
2: library 1207
1: 0
changes the Ŝrst rompointer into a function.
the code is sparsely commented but you should be able to read
it
::
CK1&Dispatch
#8F1
::
COERCE
CODE
GOSBVL POP# % get romptr
CLRST
R4=A A
GOSBVL PopASavptr % get lib
R3=A A
D0=A
D0+5
C=DAT0 A % length of lib
C+8 A % add prologue and nullnibs
GOSBVL CREATETEMP
GONC MEMOK
GOVLNG GPMEMERR
*MEMOK
A=R3 A
AD0EX % D0= old lib
D1=A % D1= new lib
R0=A A
A=DAT0 A % copy prologue
DAT1=A A
D1+5
D0+5
A=DAT0 A
A+3 A % add 3 to length
DAT1=A A
D0+5
D1+5
C=0 A
C=DAT0 B % title length
?C=0 A -> NOTITLE
C+1 A % add second length Ŝeld
*NOTITLE
C+C A
C+20 A % copy offsets
COPYDN
C=DAT0 A
C+3 A % conŜg offset
DAT1=C A
D0+5
D1+5
A=DAT0 A % link prologue
DAT1=A A
D1+5
D0+5
C=DAT0 A % link length
C+5 A % add hash prologue
COPYDN
C=DAT0 A % hash length
DAT1=C A
D0+5
D1+5
GOSBVL DIV5 % # of romptrs +1
C-2 A
B=C A
R1=C A % # of romptrs -1
C=R4 A % func romptr
B-C A % numer of romps to be moved -1
A=C A
C+C A
C+C A
C+A A
COPYDN % copy offsets
*HASH
A=DAT0 A
A+3 A % add 3 to offset
DAT1=A A
D0+5
D1+5
B-1 A
GONC HASH
*OUT
LC 00007
COPYDN % copy nibble libid romptr id
D0-3
A=DAT0 X % romptr id
D0+3
C=R4 A % func romptr
?A#C X -> NULL
C=0 A
DAT1=C X % add the zeros
D1+3
*NULL
C=R1 A % last romptr
?A#C X -> LAST
ST=1 9
*LAST
CD0EX
D0=C
D=C A
GOSBVL SKIPOB
C=D A
CD0EX
C-D A
COPYDN % copy romptr body
?ST=0 9 -> OUT
C=R3 A
CD0EX
D0+5
A=DAT0 A
D=C A
D0=C
C=R3 A
C+A A
C-D A
C+1 A
COPYDN % copy rest of lib
A=R0 A
D0=A
D0+5
A=DAT0 A
A-4 A
GOSBVL DoCRC % new crc
P=3
DAT0=A WP
P=0
GOVLNG GPPushR0Lp
ENDCODE
;
;
@
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
WOW!
there is a bug in the code when the function rompointer is
the last one in \
the
lib
please use this code instead, it has the bugŜx and changes
the 8 into \
three
zeroıs
like JYA said.
It now also checks if the rompointer id is valid
CHECKSUM: #D624h, 272.5 bytes
::
CK1&Dispatch
#8F1
::
COERCE
CODE
GOSBVL POP# % get romptr
CLRST
R4=A A
GOSBVL PopASavptr % get lib
R3=A A
D0=A
D0+5
C=DAT0 A % length of lib
C+7 A % add prologue and nullnibs
GOSBVL CREATETEMP
GONC MEMOK
GOVLNG GPMEMERR
*MEMOK
A=R3 A
AD0EX % D0= old lib
D1=A % D1= new lib
R0=A A
A=DAT0 A % copy prologue
DAT1=A A
D1+5
D0+5
A=DAT0 A
A+2 A % add 2 to length
DAT1=A A
D0+5
D1+5
C=0 A
C=DAT0 B % title length
?C=0 A -> NOTITLE
C+1 A % add second length Ŝeld
*NOTITLE
C+C A
C+20 A % copy offsets
COPYDN
C=DAT0 A
C+2 A % conŜg offset
DAT1=C A
D0+5
D1+5
A=DAT0 A % link prologue
DAT1=A A
D1+5
D0+5
C=DAT0 A % link length
C+5 A % add hash prologue
COPYDN
C=DAT0 A % hash length
DAT1=C A
D0+5
D1+5
GOSBVL DIV5 % # of romptrs +1
C-2 A
B=C A
R1=C A % # of romptrs -1
A=R4 A
?A<=C A -> ERR
LC 00203
GOVLNG GPErrjmpC
*ERR
C=R4 A % func romptr
B-C A % numer of romps to be moved -1
A=C A
C+C A
C+C A
C+A A
COPYDN % copy offsets
*HASH
A=DAT0 A
A+2 A % add 2 to offset
DAT1=A A
D0+5
D1+5
B-1 A
GONC HASH
*OUT
LC 00007
COPYDN % copy nibble libid romptr id
D0-3
A=DAT0 X % romptr id
D0+3
C=R4 A % func romptr
?A#C X -> NULL
D1-7
C=0 A
DAT1=C X % add the zeros
D1+3
D0-6
LC 00006
COPYDN
*NULL
D0-3
A=DAT0 X % romptr id
D0+3
C=R1 A % last romptr
?A#C X -> LAST
ST=1 9
*LAST
CD0EX
D0=C
D=C A
GOSBVL SKIPOB
C=D A
CD0EX
C-D A
COPYDN % copy romptr body
?ST=0 9 -> OUT
C=R3 A
CD0EX
D0+5
A=DAT0 A
D=C A
D0=C
C=R3 A
C+A A
C-D A
C+1 A
COPYDN % copy rest of lib
A=R0 A
D0=A
D0+5
A=DAT0 A
A-4 A
GOSBVL DoCRC % new crc
P=3
DAT0=A WP
P=0
GOVLNG GPPushR0Lp
ENDCODE
;
;
@
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
> please use this code instead, it has the bugŜx and changes
the 8 into \
three
> zeroıs like JYA said.
I forgot to mention that the code only works for libs created
with CRLIB
because it assumes that the conŜg object is at the end of the
lib (and \
present)
and it will also fail when there is a $extprg
If you want I can Ŝx it.
I knew that it seemed too easy :-)
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
>
>
> I forgot to mention that the code only works for libs
created with CRLIB
and I found another bug, with hidden rompointers
this version Ŝxes it all (hidden rompointers, $extprg,
$message)
the lib still needs to be build with CRLIB because of the
order of
the various parts
sorry if I caused any TTRMıs
::
CK2&Dispatch
#8F1
::
COERCE
CODE
GOSBVL POP# % get romptr
CLRST
R4=A A
GOSBVL PopASavptr % get lib
R3=A A
D0=A
D0+5
C=DAT0 A % length of lib
C+7 A % add prologue and nullnibs
GOSBVL CREATETEMP
GONC MEMOK
GOVLNG GPMEMERR
*MEMOK
A=R3 A
AD0EX % D0= old lib
D1=A % D1= new lib
R0=A A
A=DAT0 A % copy prologue
DAT1=A A
D1+5
D0+5
A=DAT0 A
A+2 A % add 3 to length
DAT1=A A
D0+5
D1+5
C=0 A
C=DAT0 B % title length
?C=0 A -> NOTITLE
C+1 A % add second length Ŝeld
*NOTITLE
C+C A
C+10 A
COPYDN
C=DAT0 A
?C=0 A -> MESS
ST=1 10
*MESS
LC 0000A
COPYDN
C=DAT0 A
?C=0 A -> NOCONF
C+2 A % conŜg offset
*NOCONF
DAT1=C A
D0+5
D1+5
A=DAT0 A
LC 0C5D0
?A#C A -> EXT
LC 00010
COPYDN
*EXT
?ST=0 10 -> NOMESS
C=DAT0 A
DAT1=C A
D0+5
D1+5
C=DAT0 A
COPYDN
*NOMESS
A=DAT0 A % link prologue
DAT1=A A
D1+5
D0+5
CD0EX
D=C A
D0=C
C=DAT0 A % link length
COPYDN
CD0EX
B=C A
C=D A
D0=C
D0+85
C=DAT0 A
AD0EX
C+A A
BCEX A
D0=C
C-B A
GOSBVL DIV5
C-1 A
R2=C A % # of romptrs -1
C=DAT0 A % hash prologue
DAT1=C A
D0+5
D1+5
C=DAT0 A % hash length
DAT1=C A
D0+5
D1+5
GOSBVL DIV5
C-2 A
B=C A
A=R4 A
?A<=C A -> ERR
LC 00203
GOVLNG GPErrjmpC
*ERR
C=R4 A % func romptr
B-C A % numer of romps to be moved -1
A=C A
C+C A
C+C A
C+A A
COPYDN % copy offsets
*HASH
A=DAT0 A
A+2 A % add 3 to offset
DAT1=A A
D0+5
D1+5
B-1 A
GONC HASH
*OUT
LC 00007
COPYDN % copy nibble libid romptr id
D0-3
A=DAT0 X % romptr id
D0+3
C=R4 A % func romptr
?A#C X -> NULL
D1-7
C=0 A
DAT1=C X % add the zeros
D1+3
D0-6
LC 00006
COPYDN
*NULL
D0-3
A=DAT0 X % romptr id
D0+3
C=R2 A % last romptr
?A#C X -> LAST
ST=1 9
*LAST
CD0EX
D0=C
D=C A
GOSBVL SKIPOB
C=D A
CD0EX
C-D A
COPYDN % copy romptr body
?ST=0 9 -> OUT
C=R3 A
CD0EX
D0+5
A=DAT0 A
D=C A
D0=C
C=R3 A
C+A A
C-D A
C+1 A
COPYDN % copy rest of lib
A=R0 A
D0=A
D0+5
A=DAT0 A
A-4 A
GOSBVL DoCRC % new crc
P=3
DAT0=A WP
P=0
GOVLNG GPPushR0Lp
ENDCODE
; ;
@
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
> just hack the lib with ->H
> add the three nibbles
> add three to the length of the lib
> rebuild the lib with H->
> and recalculate the four checksum nibbles at the end
Hmm, I thought the three nibbles belonged to the function,
not the library?
Do you mean I should search for the proper function in the
library
Hex-string?
> Iıll write a hacking code that does this tonight in the
train
> so you can do it automatically
====
> Hmm, I thought the three nibbles belonged to the function,
not the \
library?
you might be right, Iıll look into it
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
On Sat, 07 Sep 2002 22:45:53 -0500, Jonathan Busby
>Note: About code that gets bound to xSYMfcn. This creates a
symbolic
>according to the standard representation of a non built-in
function
>application ie.
>SYMBOL arguments SYMBOL ID function ; numberOfArguments
xFCNAPPLY ;
Get rid of the \ID\ in \SYMBOL ID function ;\ above . ;)
-------------------------------------------------------------
---------------\
---
Jonathan Busby - <jdb@SNMAPOhouston.rr.com>
before replying.
====
Does anybody have an example of how to code the input from in
sysrpl \
please?
MC
====
Yesterday I ordered a HP 49G. It will be here Tuesday the
10th. Did
I do a dumb thing ordering a calculator that has been
discontinued? If
so donıt tell me ;)
honors class and will hopefully be able to use it well into
college,
even if there are better calcs out by then.
Everyone else and their dog is using a Ti 83-Plus but Iıve
used the
49G emulator a lot and the 83s just drive me nuts! (Does it
bug
anybody else that you have to hit second and then mode to quit
something? Donıt you \quit\ a lot more often than you change
calculator settings?)
ANYWAY...what do I need to do as soon as it gets here and
what should
I know about it up front?
Ryan
====
> Yesterday I ordered a HP 49G. It will be here Tuesday the
10th. Did
> I do a dumb thing ordering a calculator that has been
discontinued?
Heck, no! Lots of old timers still think their 67 or 41 or
(insert your
particular favorite here) was the BEST calcualtor EVER
made....just because
it might be discontinued doesnıt mean that it will stop
working!
> honors class and will hopefully be able to use it well into
college,
> even if there are better calcs out by then.
It should be quite usable for the foreseeable future....and
itıs not
overkill if you really use it as a tool to learn your math
better and not
just as an appliance to to the math for you...
>
> Everyone else and their dog is using a Ti 83-Plus but Iıve
used the
> 49G emulator a lot and the 83s just drive me nuts! (Does it
bug
> anybody else that you have to hit second and then mode to
quit
> something? Donıt you \quit\ a lot more often than you change
> calculator settings?)
>
The TI 83 and 89 etc are ok, but I think you will Ŝnd you
will be able to
make the 49 do things the TIs canıt
>
> ANYWAY...what do I need to do as soon as it gets here and
what should
> I know about it up front?
>
Get thee to www.hpcalc.org !! (get a cable, update the ROM
and then check
to see what programs will be useful for your classes....and
always, always,
Good luck,
Roger Metcalf
Arlington, Texas, USA
====
> Yesterday I ordered a HP 49G. It will be here Tuesday the
10th. Did
> I do a dumb thing ordering a calculator that has been
discontinued? If
> so donıt tell me ;)
It has not been discontinued - yet.
Eventually every calculator will be.
Iım still using my HP-41CX.
X
> something? Donıt you \quit\ a lot more often than you change
[ON] cancels in the HP 49G and I think ergonomically you have
chosen the best of the best.
> ANYWAY...what do I need to do as soon as it gets here and
what should
> I know about it up front?
X
Get yourself at least the Vol.I of the Urrozıs HP 49G books
http://www.engineering.usu.edu/cee/faculty/gurro/myBooks.htm
Read this news group regularly and remember to use Google:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?group=
comp.sys.hp48
There are a lot of useful programs and documents in the
www.hpcalc.org
====
I took off the batteries for 3 minutes, the time the
condensator would
go empty and my libraries deleted...
However when i put the batteries back in, the calculator wont
start :(:(
I dont know whats wrong :(
Lopez
====
\Matthias Lopez\ <matlopez@noos.fr> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> I took off the batteries for 3 minutes, the time the
condensator would
> go empty and my libraries deleted...
> However when i put the batteries back in, the calculator
wont start :(:(
> I dont know whats wrong :(
>
You could use the pinhole reset.
For this you have to remove the upper right rubber foot,
when looking at the back side of your calc.
Thereıs a small hole with a letter ŒRı nearby.
Take a needle and put it *carefully* into the hole for a
short moment.
Raymond
====
> \Matthias Lopez\ <matlopez@noos.fr> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>
>>I took off the batteries for 3 minutes, the time the
condensator would
>>go empty and my libraries deleted...
>>However when i put the batteries back in, the calculator
wont start :(:(
>>I dont know whats wrong :(
>>
>
> You could use the pinhole reset.
> For this you have to remove the upper right rubber foot,
> when looking at the back side of your calc.
> Thereıs a small hole with a letter ŒRı nearby.
> Take a needle and put it *carefully* into the hole for a
short moment.
>
>
> Raymond
>
>
Sorry it does not work...
Lopez
====
leave the batteries out for an extended period, say even 24
hours. short the \
+
and - together to help drain the charge.
It will come back to life ...

be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net
====
\Baboo\ <pawlrevere2@aol.comoicurax> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> leave the batteries out for an extended period, say even 24
hours. short
the +
> and - together to help drain the charge.
>
> It will come back to life ...
>
But be sure NOT to reverse the polarity of the batteries when
putting them
in.
This will damage your calc.
For further info on this topic, check out www.hpcalc.org
Raymond
====
> \Baboo\ <pawlrevere2@aol.comoicurax> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>
>>leave the batteries out for an extended period, say even 24
hours. short
>
> the +
>
>>and - together to help drain the charge.
>>
>>It will come back to life ...
>>
>
> But be sure NOT to reverse the polarity of the batteries
when putting \
them
> in.
> This will damage your calc.
>
> For further info on this topic, check out www.hpcalc.org
>
> Raymond
>
>
Finally got it working.
My hands were sweaty so i guess that might have been the
problem :)
I truly appreciate the help you folks gave me
Matthias Lopez
====
Filer1 and Filer2 (all in Filer1.zip) on my site below
with an option Zoom on the Z-key for scanning a Ŝle
whose name starts with a letter to be typed in. The
essentials of the Zoom option have been created by
Luis Morales, thanks a lot :-). This search option is
really useful if a directory or port has many Ŝles.
It got the name \Zoom\ for mnemotic reason.
I would prefer Filer2 with its 2-page appl menu. The
2nd page contains the Transfer-options, in particular
a toggling menu key for ASCII/BINARY. As a matter of
fact, one should Ŝnd a balance between the number of
active hardkeys and the number of menu pages. I hope
that Filer2 realizes the right balance.
Have fun, Wolfgang
ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools
PS. Since I have got no working 49 at present, I used
the MASD PC-tools. This took me 3x more time than Iıd
have needed on the HP49 :-) I felt like Beethoven when
he - already completely deaf - composed his famous string
quartet op. 135 \Muss es sein?\ (\Must it be?\). The only
way to get satisfaction from a creation in such a situation
is to *imagine* how other people might be pleased. Iım in a
better situation than was Beethoven since I may still read
whether youıre please or not; the mentioned opus 135 was
published only in 1827, after Beethovenıs death ...
====
thanks a lot for this. Your composition sounds beautifull
;-). Great work.
Best wishes,
Walter
> Filer1 and Filer2 (all in Filer1.zip) on my site below
> with an option Zoom on the Z-key for scanning a Ŝle
> whose name starts with a letter to be typed in. The
> essentials of the Zoom option have been created by
> Luis Morales, thanks a lot :-). This search option is
> really useful if a directory or port has many Ŝles.
> It got the name \Zoom\ for mnemotic reason.
>
> I would prefer Filer2 with its 2-page appl menu. The
> 2nd page contains the Transfer-options, in particular
> a toggling menu key for ASCII/BINARY. As a matter of
> fact, one should Ŝnd a balance between the number of
> active hardkeys and the number of menu pages. I hope
> that Filer2 realizes the right balance.
>
> Have fun, Wolfgang
> ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools
>
> PS. Since I have got no working 49 at present, I used
> the MASD PC-tools. This took me 3x more time than Iıd
> have needed on the HP49 :-) I felt like Beethoven when
> he - already completely deaf - composed his famous string
> quartet op. 135 \Muss es sein?\ (\Must it be?\). The only
> way to get satisfaction from a creation in such a situation
> is to *imagine* how other people might be pleased. Iım in a
> better situation than was Beethoven since I may still read
> whether youıre please or not; the mentioned opus 135 was
> published only in 1827, after Beethovenıs death ...
====
> thanks a lot for this. Your composition sounds beautifull
;-). Great \
work.
Filer1/2 have been updated to v. 12.2002, probably the
Ŝnal version before ROM 19-7 (in which several features
of Filer1/2 will be built-in). Filer2 has on menu-page 2
a new transfer option. The ASCII/BINARY toggler has
been replaced by the option IOP? (are IO-parameters OK?)
which sets a menu for toggling all relevant IO-parameters
- what is normally done with 106 MENU or by the 49-TRANSFER
screen. But the IOP?-menu makes this setting much faster.
Ideal for people who like fast data transfer and seldom use
the time-consuming Connectivity Kit. Ideal also for data
exchange between two calculators.
ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools
PS. What Iım particularly interested in is JHMıs opinion
on Filer2. All of what he was dreaming of is realized ...
====
permission?
> ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools
====
> permission?
> ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools
Nothing forbidden, should run !
PS. There is a new OT49-version on my site. The only
change is that the BZ-toggler ~ got still more power.
It looks whether a code object is already compressed
and decodes it appropriately. For instance, ACC can
now be decoded by everybody. Jurjen Bos and I agreed
thatıs time now to reveal the secret :-)
Reply-To: peter@dutw1479.wbmt.tudelft.nl
====
> PS. There is a new OT49-version on my site. The only
> change is that the BZ-toggler ~ got still more power.
No new LibEx in D<-->L ?
For people that want LibEx 4.2;
you can download it at:
http://www.ahd.tudelft.nl/~peter
It converts directly from port memory, and has
the option not to rename rompointers to variables.
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
> thanks a lot for this. Your composition sounds beautifull
;-). Great \
work.
Filer1 has been updated again, to include also XRECV
as an option. This waits for input of one or several
new names for receiving via XMODEM. More convenient
than doing it on the time-devouring TRANSFER screen.
The V-key displays besides ROM and CAS version also
the current Ŝler version which is 11.2002 meanwhile.
Note that the Ŝlers have still 1.2 KB only :-)
Have fun
Wolfgang
PS. In ROM 19-7, the ability of Filer1/2 of directly
driving into the ports by pressing 0,1,2 will be built
in. Searching for a name will be realized by setting
a special SEARCH environement with active alpha key.
This has its advantages but also disadvantages, compared
with the simple search-management in Filer1/2 - one may
forget to hit the alpha key for leaving this environement
in time and has to start the search again ...
====
I have one question:
How can I become a member of this newsgroup?
As I have no experience with the use of newsgroups it would
be nice if
somebody helped me with some information !
Best wishes
Bernd Bernsteiner
====
>
> I have one question:
>
> How can I become a member of this newsgroup?
> As I have no experience with the use of newsgroups it would
be nice if
> somebody helped me with some information !
>
> Best wishes
>
> Bernd Bernsteiner
>
Welcome! Youıve found your way to the newsgroup and thatıs
the hardest
part! This group is not a \private\ list where you must
request to be \
put
on it--just come on back from time to time to see whatıs
going on. The \
list
is populated by a bunch of very nice and very helpful folks...
Roger Metcalf
Arlington, Texas, USA
(in the shadow of the giant TI world headquarters)
====
I hope, your HP-Calculator helps you bringing some light over
the shadow of
the TI-Headquarter building !
;-))
Bernd
\Roger D Metcalf DDS\ <metcalfdds@msn.com> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag
>
>
> I have one question:
>
> How can I become a member of this newsgroup?
> As I have no experience with the use of newsgroups it would
be nice if
> somebody helped me with some information !
>
> Best wishes
>
> Bernd Bernsteiner
>
> Welcome! Youıve found your way to the newsgroup and thatıs
the hardest
> part! This group is not a \private\ list where you must
request to be \
put
> on it--just come on back from time to time to see whatıs
going on. The
list
> is populated by a bunch of very nice and very helpful
folks...
>
> Roger Metcalf
> Arlington, Texas, USA
> (in the shadow of the giant TI world headquarters)
>
>
====
>
> I have one question:
>
> How can I become a member of this newsgroup?
> As I have no experience with the use of newsgroups it would
be nice if
> somebody helped me with some information !
>
> Best wishes
>
> Bernd Bernsteiner
>
> Welcome! Youıve found your way to the newsgroup and thatıs
the hardest
> part! This group is not a \private\ list where you must
request to be \
put
> on it--just come on back from time to time to see whatıs
going on. The \
list
> is populated by a bunch of very nice and very helpful
folks...
>
> Roger Metcalf
> Arlington, Texas, USA
> (in the shadow of the giant TI world headquarters)
Hey just curious, what do you use your hp49 for? Calculating
amounts
of enamel to apply to teeth? Nitrous oxide mixing ratios? I
use mine
for calculus, but i am sure you donıt use yours to scrape
calculus
from teeth? No wonder your screen is all scratched up!!;)
====
I have an HP48G+.
How do I make custom units? Canıt Ŝnd anything informative.
Example:
1_p = 1 x 10^-12 (pico) or .000000000001
so that I can convert for instance, 32.4_M ohms ->
32,400,000,000,000 p
ohms.
====
~Chris
====
\Yoda\ <masteryoda@mchsi.com> escribi\.97 en el mensaje
>
> ~Chris
>
....and if you want create your own units menus, use Unitman
from Wolfgang
Rautenberg.
www.hpcalc.org
ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/hp48/tools/
====
> How do I make custom units? Example:
> 1_p = 1 x 10^-12 (pico) or .000000000001
> so that I can convert for instance,
> 32.4_M ohms -> 32,400,000,000,000 pico ohms
\pico\ [p] is a built-in unit preŜx,
which can be applied to any other unit.
You can directly convert to any desired particular output
units
using CONVERT, e.g. (note that \\GW represents the \ohms\
symbol):
32.4_\\GW 1_p\\GW CONVERT
You can also put desired units into a \custom menu\; e.g.:
{ 1_\\GW 1_k\\GW 1_M\\GW 1_p\\GW } MENU
This menu allows you to create a value using one of the
unit preŜxes, then convert it to use one of the other preŜxes
(unshifted unit menu keys perform multiplication,
left-shifted unit menu keys perform conversion,
right-shifted unit menu keys perform division).
If you want a general program to adjust *any* unit expression,
so as to vary the unit preŜx over all possible values,
much like the ENG key on some Casio calculators, try these:
HP48 versions:
http://hpcalc.org/hp48/math/misc/casioeng.zip
http://hpcalc.org/hp48/math/misc/unitscal.zip
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5h3fqg%24624%241%
40news.iastate.edu
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=60rcjc%246vs%241%
40news.iastate.edu
HP49 versions:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3AB1F809.2FA3EB44%
40miu.edu
------------------
http://www.mum.edu
.
====
> If you want a general program to adjust *any* unit
expression,
> so as to vary the unit preŜx over all possible values,
> much like the ENG key on some Casio calculators, try these:
>
> HP49 versions:
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3AB1F809.2FA3EB44%
40miu.edu
also take a look at UTOOL 2.8
http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4612
The best thing for units IMHO.
from the docs:
\This library provides tools to deal with units. It contains
- A tool for fast interactive access to your favorite units,
without having
to dig through the multi-page unit menu. I donıt think there
is a more
efŜcient way to work with UNITS on the HP49G or any other
calculator.
- USIMP, a conŜgurable inverse UBASE command.
- Commands to compute with non-SI base units (Planck, cgs,...)
Also included are re-implementations of the most useful HP48
utilities:
- Jack Levyıs MUC.
- John H. Meyersı UM, U1, U2, ENG->, and ENG<-
- Matt Austernıs unit converter for high-energy physics.\
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
> How do I make custom units? Canıt Ŝnd anything informative.
> Example:
> 1_p = 1 x 10^-12 (pico) or .000000000001
>
> so that I can convert for instance, 32.4_M ohms ->
32,400,000,000,000 p
> ohms.
Well, if you only mean preŜxes, you just do 32.4_MOhm 1_pOhm
CONVERT ->
3.24E19_pOhm.
The HP4x series of calculators support these preŜxes (page
10-5 in your
manual):
PreŜx / Name / Exponent:
Y / yotta / +24
Z / zetta / +21
E / exa / +18
P / peta / +15
T / tera / +12
G / giga / +9
M / mega / +6
k or K / kilo / +3
h or H / hecto / +2
D / deka / +1
d / deci / -1
c / centi / -2
m / milli / -3
u (the greek letter) / micro / -6
n / nano / -9
p / pico / -12
f / femto / -15
a / atto / -18
z / zepto / -21
y / yocto / -24
You cannot use preŜxes if the resulting unit matches another
built-in \
unit.
Matches: min, Pa, da, cd, ph, ŝam, nmi, mph, kph, ct, pt, ft,
au, cu, yd &
yr.
If you run into making custom units (like _yd^3/cm*W or
_bytes), or the
above preŜxes arenıt enough, write again. Before writing,
look into the
unit 1_?. Also see if you can Ŝnd these units somewhere in
the calculator:
_rpm, _dB, _gmol & _lbmol ;-)).
====
BTW, I am meaning speciŜcally SI units kinda like how it is
done here
http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/dictunit/ccpreŜx.htm
> I have an HP48G+.
> How do I make custom units? Canıt Ŝnd anything informative.
>
> Example:
>
> 1_p = 1 x 10^-12 (pico) or .000000000001
>
> so that I can convert for instance, 32.4_M ohms ->
32,400,000,000,000 p
> ohms.
>
>
>
>
====
I was wondering what mathematical meaning non-integer limits
in summations
(and product functions for that matter) have?
In the next paragraph, S is the (Sigma) summation function,
and P is the
(capital Pi) Product function:
You can evaluate S(X=1/2,3/4,X^2) on the HP49G (-> Œ35/64ı),
and you can
evaluate P(SIN(X),X,1/2,3/4) on the TI89 (-> ŒSIN(1/2)ı). I
imagine the
calcs merely calculate the symbolic formula for the summation
and
multiplication with arbitrary limits, and then simply plop in
the given
limits. What mathematical meaning does this have?
====
I would have to say it makes absolutely no mathematical sense
to have
non-integer limits in a summation. Summations are discrete
functions and \
it
only makes sense (at least to me) to use discrete or integer
limits.
Aaron
>
> I was wondering what mathematical meaning non-integer
limits in \
summations
> (and product functions for that matter) have?
>
> In the next paragraph, S is the (Sigma) summation function,
and P is the
> (capital Pi) Product function:
>
> You can evaluate S(X=1/2,3/4,X^2) on the HP49G (->
Œ35/64ı), and you can
> evaluate P(SIN(X),X,1/2,3/4) on the TI89 (-> ŒSIN(1/2)ı). I
imagine the
> calcs merely calculate the symbolic formula for the
summation and
> multiplication with arbitrary limits, and then simply plop
in the given
> limits. What mathematical meaning does this have?
>
====
Aaron said:
> it makes absolutely no mathematical sense to have
non-integer limits
> in discrete functions and it only makes sense (at least to
me)
> to use discrete or integer limits.
But we are all familiar with other things which were
introduced
to us as \discrete\ deŜnitions, yet which, with a little
expansion
of perspective, we can also understand as \continuous.\
Exponents, for example -- when Ŝrst we deŜne an exponent
as how many times we repeat a factor, it seems to make
no sense to ask what x^(3/4) might mean,
but we all know that it does represent something
which is quite well deŜned, which we now accept
just as much as the more primitive concept with which
we began our earlier understanding.
Similarly, the initial, simple deŜnition of factorials
is discrete, but the very same thing, relabeled as
\Gamma function,\ has a precise meaning for non-integers as
well.
The sum of the Ŝrst N integers is known to be N*(N+1)/2;
now, this formula has a deŜned value for any N,
so why not then deŜne the sum Sigma(N), limits A to B,
as the difference between two values of that formula,
evaluated at A-1 and at B, for any values of A and B?
And how about the idea of \number,\ which, when we can only
imagine a one-dimensional meaning, leads to many difŜcult
or insoluble problems, yet when we expand our understanding
to admit two dimensions (\complex\ numbers), it becomes
extraordinarily powerful and complete.
In much the same way, other concepts which at Ŝrst may be
summarily
rejected by those who have not yet expanded their awareness
and gained more experience and perspective are completely
clear and obvious to those who have learned more
and actually experienced them.
\Knowledge is structured in consciousness\
[our university motto]
http://www.mum.edu
.
====
Iım going to have to disagree with you here. It still makes no
mathematical sense to use non-integer limits on a summation
whose only
purpose in life is to sum discrete elements with discrete
indicies. If
there is a way that you can expand the meaning of a summation
by using
non-integer limits, then you dont have a summation anymore
but an entirely
different function. In the example of an exponent, that is
different
because we can use algebra to prove how non-integers in the
exponent work
and make mathematical sense. It makes mathematical sense to
have a real
or imaginary number in the exponent. It does not make
mathematical sense
to reference the i_th object in a sequence for instance when
i=3.2. I
understand that you can make unique results with only using
the index as a
direct argument in the sum, but as I just mentioned, what
sense does it
make to reference a
\fractional\ element in a sequence whose elements are only
(sensibly)
deŜned by integers? If I gave someone 2 sequences and asked
them to
perform a discrete-time convolution from N=0 to N=11.5, they
would look at
me like I had lost my senses!
Aaron
> Aaron said:
>
> it makes absolutely no mathematical sense to have
non-integer limits
> in discrete functions and it only makes sense (at least to
me)
> to use discrete or integer limits.
>
> But we are all familiar with other things which were
introduced
> to us as \discrete\ deŜnitions, yet which, with a little
expansion
> of perspective, we can also understand as \continuous.\
>
> Exponents, for example -- when Ŝrst we deŜne an exponent
> as how many times we repeat a factor, it seems to make
> no sense to ask what x^(3/4) might mean,
> but we all know that it does represent something
> which is quite well deŜned, which we now accept
> just as much as the more primitive concept with which
> we began our earlier understanding.
>
> Similarly, the initial, simple deŜnition of factorials
> is discrete, but the very same thing, relabeled as
> \Gamma function,\ has a precise meaning for non-integers as
well.
>
> The sum of the Ŝrst N integers is known to be N*(N+1)/2;
> now, this formula has a deŜned value for any N,
> so why not then deŜne the sum Sigma(N), limits A to B,
> as the difference between two values of that formula,
> evaluated at A-1 and at B, for any values of A and B?
>
> And how about the idea of \number,\ which, when we can only
> imagine a one-dimensional meaning, leads to many difŜcult
> or insoluble problems, yet when we expand our understanding
> to admit two dimensions (\complex\ numbers), it becomes
> extraordinarily powerful and complete.
>
> In much the same way, other concepts which at Ŝrst may be
summarily
> rejected by those who have not yet expanded their awareness
> and gained more experience and perspective are completely
> clear and obvious to those who have learned more
> and actually experienced them.
====
> It still makes no mathematical sense to use non-integer
limits
> on a summation whose only purpose in life is to sum
> discrete elements with discrete indicies.
> If there is a way that you can expand the meaning of a
summation
> by using non-integer limits, then you donıt have a
summation anymore
> but an entirely different function.
As the Churkendoose said, \It depends on how you look at
things.\
http://www.humanistsofutah.org/1994/AnnaHoagland_Journey-8-94
.html
http://www.oiquarterly.org/vol02/num3/vol02-3-01.htm
http://home.bluemarble.net/~fumcb/sermons/010826.htm
In the MTH PROB menu (13 MENU), youıll Ŝnd a ! [factorial]
menu key.
Enter 3 and press it, and youıll get a result of 6;
enter 4 and press it, and youıll get a result of 24;
enter 5 and press it, and youıll get a result of 120.
Well, is that the factorial function, or not?
Now enter 0.5 and press it, and youıll get a result
equal to the square root of pi/4.
Hmm... Does the fact that it delivers results for
values *between* integers mean that it isnıt the factorial
function at all, \but an entirely different function\?
For every positive integer argument, the result is identical
to the value of that integerıs factorial, so in this light,
you can not distinguish it from the factorial function,
even though its internal method of calculation
may or may not be to \walk through\ the literal original
deŜnition. It *is* the factorial function, regardless
of what algorithm it uses to get its result, much the same
as the COS trig function is the cosine function, even though
it does not actually construct a right triangle inside the
calculator
and go measure it (if that was your original deŜnition);
there are many equivalent deŜnitions, some more general than
others,
which work equally well for computing cosines, and if
the calculator contains an algorithm which accepts input
\angles\ which are greater than any possible angle in
a right triangle, does that mean that it isnıt really the
cosine function, after all, \but an entirely different
function\?
If itıs a different function, its only difference is that its
domain is expanded, by the realization that what we had
intially
thought of as a deŜnition of such a function is really only
a special case of something more general, which in turn
includes every original special case, with exactly the same
value.
Bucky Fuller used to lecture that what we call \square\
numbers
really have nothing to do with squares; heıd say that you
could
just as well call them \triangular\ numbers, because if you
make a row of one object, then a second row of three objects,
then a row of Ŝve, then seven, etc., building up larger
and larger triangles from these increasingly longer rows,
youıll get exactly the same numbers of objects in this
sequence
of *triangles* as what youıd been calling \squares.\
Itıs a kind of prejudice to say that the Ŝrst thing we think
of
is the only way to think, or that our Ŝrst experiences or
learning
of anything are the only reality, but thatıs the sort of
prejudice
which holds society back from expanding and developing
its consciousness.
Bucky said that the mind was that aspect of ourselves
which generalizes our particular special-case experiences,
and that this non-material, abstract factor of intelligence
is what organizes the material aspect of the entire universe
(including the material of our own brain).
So did Einstein, I would say, from all the quotations Iıve
read of him.
And so did many others of the most visionary people in
history.
> In the example of an exponent, that is different,
> because we can use algebra to prove how non-integers
> in the exponent work and make mathematical sense.
I suggest to you that the only difference is that
you have had more experience developing your awareness
of how this one aspect of a mathematical pattern can be
generalized,
while the other aspect is merely new to you and unexplored,
but that each is equally valid (or invalid) in the end,
and will make complete sense once experience catches up.
But people tend to reject things based solely on
lack of experience, rather than to be open to exploring
and acquiring the more comprehensive experience.
In 30-40 years of experience of teaching here,
we all experience how we can in fact have our mind order both
the
mental and physical world within and around us, just as Bucky
said,
projecting a peaceful, productive, happy and supportive world,
both in our own personal awareness and also to others,
within the radius of its effect, depending on how many people
experience a coherent state at one time.
People whoıve never had the experience argue against it;
people who have simply know that it is so.
I hope that everyone Ŝnally makes it into the latter category,
in time for most of the world to still remain undestroyed.
http://www.mum.edu
.
====
> In the MTH PROB menu (13 MENU), youıll Ŝnd a ! [factorial]
menu key.
>
> Enter 3 and press it, and youıll get a result of 6;
> enter 4 and press it, and youıll get a result of 24;
> enter 5 and press it, and youıll get a result of 120.
>
> Well, is that the factorial function, or not?
>
> Now enter 0.5 and press it, and youıll get a result
> equal to the square root of pi/4.
>
> Hmm... Does the fact that it delivers results for
> values *between* integers mean that it isnıt the factorial
> function at all, \but an entirely different function\?
Ahh, John - you walked right into it ;-)
Let me quote the \HP 48G Series Advanced Userıs Reference
Manual\, page
3-412:
\!, Factorial (Gamma) Function: Returns the factorial n! of a
positive
integer argument n, or the gamma function G(x+1) of a
non-integer argument
x\. With \G\ I of course mean the greek letter capital gamma.
Well, John. The ! function on the HP calculators is the
factorial function
for integer arguments ONLY, and the gamma function for
everything else -
hence it is indeed two different functions, merely with that
interesting
property, that they combined make a continous function.
I do, however, understand the arguments made of continuity
regarding
summation, but the ! function was probably not the best
example ;-))
====
> \HP 48G Series Advanced Userıs Reference Manual\, page
3-412:
> \!, Factorial (Gamma) Function: Returns the factorial n! of
positive
> integer argument n, or the gamma function G(x+1) of a
non-integer
> hence it is indeed two different functions
No more different than if I say that *this* man is George W
Bush,
while *that* man is the President of the United States,
so they are really two different people,
so long as I use two different descriptions or deŜnitions.
The function in fact returns G(x+1) for *all* arguments,
since n! and G(n+1) are identically equal.
Or, if we care to simply generalize our perception of n! so
that we
recognize its domain as all reals instead of only positive
integers,
then the function returns the generalized x! for all x.
This \argument\ seems to hinge on you and Aaron considering
that functions are different if they use different algorithms,
or even different deŜnitions, while I consider that
they are the same if they produce the same results.
Under the Ŝrst idea, there are even multiple SIN and COS
functions,
(or EXP[M] LN[P1]), because the internal algorithms
themselves change,
according to both the type and range of the input argument,
and
further, since none of the internal \CORDIC\ algorithms even
resembles
a \fundamental\ deŜnition of these \mathematical\ functions,
not
a one of these is actually the real McCoy, but all are
imposters!
The second approach is in the direction of generalizing what
we know
as our experience and perspective broadens, creating a deeper
unity
in our consciousness, a general theme of Bucky Fuller and
others,
indeed a hallmark of our educational process,
of which I sought to use this as an example.
I call upon Shakespeare as my Ŝnal witness:
\A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet.\ ;-)
Best wishes from http://www.mum.edu
.
====
> Are you suggesting that just because the machine
> returns a result for both integers and non-integers,
> that it is using the same algorithm inside?
No; wasnıt I explicit about this?
> They *arenıt* the same algorithm but, as I said,
> \an entirely different function\.
This would be true, if you characterize a calculator function
by
\how it gets the answer,\ rather than by what answers it
produces,
the way that satirist and math professor Tom Lehrer once said
that
an educational program called \New Math\ meant that we wanted
to
\understand what weıre doing, rather than get the right
answer\
http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/newmath.htm
It was said that Johann Karl Friedrich Gaussı teacher once
asked him
to add up the Ŝrst 100 positive integers, but instead, Gauss
recognized a shortcut, and got the answer in a few moments:
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/
Gauss.html
Would Gaussı teacher have been correct to claim that this was
wrong,
because Gauss was using \an entirely different function\
than direct summation?
Or was Gauss correct, because he generalized and got the
formula
for the sum, using his mind to discover a more generalized
function,
which even covers a wider domain?
The algorithms in the calculator very frequently bear no
resemblance
to any textbookıs \mathematical deŜnition\ of the functions,
anyway,
particularly the \CORDIC\ algorithms which produce answers for
numeric trig and logarithm functions and their inverses;
it could hardly be otherwise, because some theoretical
deŜnitions
of trig functions (as ratios of sides in triangles having
given
angles) provide no means at all for direct computation,
while other deŜnitions (such as the sum of inŜnite sequences)
could take inŜnitely long to evaluate; therefore, practical
and fast \numerical recipes\ are used, their only goal being
to get the right answers fast, rather than to have anything
to do with \mathematical deŜnitions.\
The results, however, are those which should be produced,
hence we could well regard those buttons labeled COS, ALOG
etc.
as being the functions that they claim to be,
because they deliver the answers that those functions should.
When a student Ŝrst plays around with these functions,
after learning his Ŝrst deŜnitions of them, however, he might
try,
e.g., FACT(1.5) and notice that an unexpected answer appears.
Should he then say \hey, this must be an entirely different
function,\ or can we say instead that it is really the same
function, just generalized to have a more complete meaning,
over a greater domain, based on deeper insight?
To get to the bottom line, if there are actually several
alternate ways to deŜne a function, all of which turn out
to give the same results, are we not at liberty to use these
deŜnitions interchangeably, as long as the results are
equivalent?
If, among these alternatives, one provides a meaning for
a domain of inputs which includes more inputs which the others
leave out, can we not regard it as a generalization of
all the more special-case instances?
Our calculator is evidently as wily as was Gauss, for it
would appear
that it also knows some formulas for the sums of some
particular
sequences, just as it might know the formulas for some
particular
integrals, and thus be able to save itself some work,
as well as at the same time creating an automatic
generalization
of the \summation\ function (I never did try fashioning a
deŜnition
to match these outputs, but surely someone elseıs imaginative
mind
may be able do so).
My real goal, in any event, was to try to give examples for
the great insight of Bucky Fuller, whose theme is always that
our special-case experiences can be generalized by our mind
(consciousness) to encompass deeper and more complete
knowledge.
This goes further than merely Ŝnding formulas for sums;
in the case of our educational system, all streams of
knowledge
are related to the fundamental consciousness of the student,
and the student experiences everything he learns as being
expressions of the pure creative lively intelligence
which (s)he directly experiences when (s)he meditates.
The meaning of this may not be clear, but the more years a
student
is in these programs, the more they excel in comparison with
others,
to the extent that our high school senior classes regularly
Ŝnd themselves in the 99th percentile (top 1 percent)
of all the students who take state-wide standard examinations.
So, G. W. Bush, great educator that you are, if you recognize
such exams as indicating which schools are the best,
isnıt it time to start funding those that are just like ours?
With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu
.
====
> I call upon Shakespeare as my Ŝnal witness:
> \A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet.\ ;-)
John - this is maybe just a discussion over words or
deŜnitions - I never
contested that the summation function shouldnıt handle
non-integer limits. \
I
merely asking for some mathematical need for this - and
continuity was \
given
as a reason (an obvious one). I can go for that, as I myself
occasionally
use the gamma functions, and of course also the factorial and
the like.
Continuity is a Good Thing in many respects.
====
> I call upon Shakespeare as my Ŝnal witness:
> \A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet.\ ;-)
\How forcible are right words!\ Job 6:25
Best Wishes to you too, John.
-
Reply-To: \Veli-Pekka Nousiainen\ <DROP_vpn@welho.com>
====
But, isnıt this integer->real thing actually about domains?
I understand the power: Y^x to be a multiplication
yet one can use also non-integer exponents.
Are they two different functions?
What about the Complex domain of the functions in the HP 48?
Take eg. ACOS at the beginning of the Reference Manual
which is a relation, not a function.
The Ŝrst system ŝag sets Principal Value / General Solution.
I just want your opinions about domains - educate me!
I want to learn more math :-D
X
> function at all, \but an entirely different function\?
>
> Ahh, John - you walked right into it ;-)
>
> Let me quote the \HP 48G Series Advanced Userıs Reference
Manual\, page
> 3-412:
>
> \!, Factorial (Gamma) Function: Returns the factorial n! of
a positive
> integer argument n, or the gamma function G(x+1) of a
non-integer \
argument
> x\. With \G\ I of course mean the greek letter capital
gamma.
>
> Well, John. The ! function on the HP calculators is the
factorial \
function
> for integer arguments ONLY, and the gamma function for
everything else -
> hence it is indeed two different functions, merely with
that interesting
> property, that they combined make a continous function.
>
> I do, however, understand the arguments made of continuity
regarding
> summation, but the ! function was probably not the best
example ;-))
>
>
====
Iıll agree with John on this one - expanding the working
domain of symbolic expressions is by far not a novel thing.
Although I donıt see any real use in this case, I donıt
see why there should be a ban on this, someone smarter will
always come up with a use for whyt Ŝrst looks like a
mathematical whim or game.
IIRC results like Sum(n=1..inŜnity) 1/n = -1/12 do
seem to be useful at times in theoretical physics, although
youıd Ŝrst think this is complete Schprewntz. And think of
the evaluation of the Ŝrst terms of diverging perturbation
series which yield correct results up to 12 digits...
Wild, but useful... Just as Dirac \functions\ were Ŝrst
seen as heresy before they were formalised into
distributions...(donıt remember by whom...)
Gerard
====
> I would have to say it makes absolutely no mathematical
sense to have
> non-integer limits in a summation. Summations are discrete
functions and
it
> only makes sense (at least to me) to use discrete or
integer limits.
I agree, therefore it confused me slightly that such
summations could be
evaluated (I had expected an error message) - hence this post.
====
> I would have to say it makes absolutely no mathematical
sense to have
> non-integer limits in a summation. Summations are discrete
functions \
and
> it
> only makes sense (at least to me) to use discrete or
integer limits.
>
> I agree, therefore it confused me slightly that such
summations could be
> evaluated (I had expected an error message) - hence this
post.
>
>
It is standard mathematical procedure to require the lower
limit of
such a summation to be integral, but not the upper limit,
with the
summation going to the ŝoor of the upper limit.
This would be similar to the
FOR X := A TO B DO....
structure in PASCAL, where A must be an integer, but B need
not be
one.
====
I think Nick has explained sothing in one of his marathon. The
calculator knows the theoriccal formula for the summation of
the n
Ŝrst square, S(x,1,n,x)=n*(2*n+1)*(n+1)/6.
To compute your summation, you just have to make a difference
and
replace the limit with your numbers (which do not have to be
integer
in this formula) to Ŝnd the result given by the hp.
Alban.
>
> I would have to say it makes absolutely no mathematical
sense to have
> non-integer limits in a summation. Summations are discrete
functions \
and
> it
> only makes sense (at least to me) to use discrete or
integer limits.
>
> I agree, therefore it confused me slightly that such
summations could \
be
> evaluated (I had expected an error message) - hence this
post.
>
>
>
> It is standard mathematical procedure to require the lower
limit of
> such a summation to be integral, but not the upper limit,
with the
> summation going to the ŝoor of the upper limit.
>
> This would be similar to the
> FOR X := A TO B DO....
> structure in PASCAL, where A must be an integer, but B need
not be
> one.
====
> I think Nick has explained sothing in one of his marathon.
The
> calculator knows the theoriccal formula for the summation
of the n
> Ŝrst square, S(x,1,n,x)=n*(2*n+1)*(n+1)/6.
> To compute your summation, you just have to make a
difference and
> replace the limit with your numbers (which do not have to
be integer
> in this formula) to Ŝnd the result given by the hp.
I know this, but I was looking for the mathematical meaning
behind it?
====
> I think Nick has explained sothing in one of his marathon.
The
> calculator knows the theoriccal formula for the summation
of the n
> Ŝrst square, S(x,1,n,x)=n*(2*n+1)*(n+1)/6.
> To compute your summation, you just have to make a
difference and
> replace the limit with your numbers (which do not have to
be integer
> in this formula) to Ŝnd the result given by the hp.
>
> I know this, but I was looking for the mathematical meaning
behind it?
>
He, he! Seems that tiny little indecent questions give more
life to a
group like this.
Mathematical meaning, you ask? Well it has already been said
that a
summation is dicrete, therefor the summation limits have to be
integers. This is not ablolutely true. Discrete (or
indiscrete ;-))
has to do with something else. The formula for the summation
just
gives index, low, high and summand. These things in the formal
representation of a sum still donıt say if the summation is
discret.
It is the \step\, that means the change of index from one
value to the
next that makes the summation discrete. Now, nobody can say
that it
shopuld be not allowed to carry out a summation, like for
example
sum(n,0,5,n) in steps of, say 0.5, instead of 1 for n. But it
is
always (?) possible to change the summand in such a way, that
a
summation with \step\ of 1 gives the same result. In our
example the
sum sum(n,0,5,n) would give the same result as
sum(n,0,10,n/2) with
\steps\ of 1. Both summations are still very discrete.
The situation gets indiscrete when the \width\ of the step
gets
inŜnitesimal small. Carrying that to the extrem case of the
tiniest
steps that you could imagine, you get the integration.
About such things, like summations of complex numbers: The
problem is
here not discretion or indiscretion ;-). The problem is that
you must
specify a path aling which you add. In function theory we
learn that
there are functions which are indifferent to the way that we
choose to
integrate them in complex. The integral of such functions
over a
closed curve (circle, ellipse etc) is always nada, nema,
zero. But
there are other, quite unhealthy functions that behave exatly
the
opposite way. Same with sums. There are some summands that
give
different sums if summed over one way or the other.
Now, about the mathematical meaning, well on the one side you
have
summations that accumulate some values using a Ŝnite \step\
for the
index, on the other side you have integrations that use
inŜnitite
small step dx. The width of the step for summations is not
particulary
interesting, since you can always change the sum, so that you
get the
same results using a step of 1. And since indices that go like
1,2,3,.... are somehow easy to grasp (integers, natural
numbers) we
use them. Or is there any other reason, Professor?
Indiscrete greetings,
Nick.
====
> But it is
> always (?) possible to change the summand in such a way,
that a
> summation with \step\ of 1 gives the same result. In our
example the
> sum sum(n,0,5,n) would give the same result as
sum(n,0,10,n/2) with
> \steps\ of 1. Both summations are still very discrete.
This is what I was referring to by \sensible\. You can
achieve the \
desired effect by making changes to the
summand instead of making the limits of the sum non-integers.
Iım not sure \
enough to say that it will *always*
work, but at Ŝrst glance I dont see why not.
> Now, about the mathematical meaning, well on the one side
you have
> summations that accumulate some values using a Ŝnite \step\
for the
> index, on the other side you have integrations that use
inŜnitite
> small step dx. The width of the step for summations is not
particulary
> interesting, since you can always change the sum, so that
you get the
> same results using a step of 1. And since indices that go
like
> 1,2,3,.... are somehow easy to grasp (integers, natural
numbers) we
> use them. Or is there any other reason, Professor?
To make something that is inherently simple appear more
complex? ;-)
Aaron
====
>
> But it is
> always (?) possible to change the summand in such a way,
that a
> summation with \step\ of 1 gives the same result. In our
example the
> sum sum(n,0,5,n) would give the same result as
sum(n,0,10,n/2) with
> \steps\ of 1. Both summations are still very discrete.
>
> This is what I was referring to by \sensible\. You can
achieve the \
desired
> effect by making changes to the
> summand instead of making the limits of the sum
non-integers. Iım not \
sure
> enough to say that it will *always*
> work, but at Ŝrst glance I dont see why not.

Sorry, I didnıt understand that you mean the same.
> Now, about the mathematical meaning, well on the one side
you have
> summations that accumulate some values using a Ŝnite \step\
for the
> index, on the other side you have integrations that use
inŜnitite
> small step dx. The width of the step for summations is not
particulary
> interesting, since you can always change the sum, so that
you get the
> same results using a step of 1. And since indices that go
like
> 1,2,3,.... are somehow easy to grasp (integers, natural
numbers) we
> use them. Or is there any other reason, Professor?
>
> To make something that is inherently simple appear more
complex? ;-)
Yeah, that might be a real reason. Or else, what complex
marathons
should I write? Keep me from unemployment, so to speak ;-)
Greetings,
Nick.
====
Try out ŒEXP(X+2)+EXP(X)ı FACTOR. It returns
ŒEXP(X+2)+EXP(X)ı. Now try
ŒEXP(X+2)+EXP(X)ı TSIMP FACTOR, and you get
ŒEXP(X)*(EXP(2)+1)ı. Well,
FACTOR doesnıt work too good with non-rational expressions,
huh? It needs
help, with for example TSIMP.
Another interesting question - how do we get from
ŒEXP(X)*(EXP(2)+1)ı to \
the
original expression ŒEXP(X+2)+EXP(X)ı? I havenıt succeded in
Ŝnding a way \
-
maybe you can do it?
====
>
> Try out ŒEXP(X+2)+EXP(X)ı FACTOR. It returns
ŒEXP(X+2)+EXP(X)ı. Now try
> ŒEXP(X+2)+EXP(X)ı TSIMP FACTOR, and you get
ŒEXP(X)*(EXP(2)+1)ı. Well,
> FACTOR doesnıt work too good with non-rational expressions,
huh? It needs
> help, with for example TSIMP.
>
Thatıs the way it is implemented. FACTOR does polynomial
factorization
not rewriting.
> Another interesting question - how do we get from
ŒEXP(X)*(EXP(2)+1)ı to \
the
> original expression ŒEXP(X+2)+EXP(X)ı? I havenıt succeded
in Ŝnding a way \
-
> maybe you can do it?
>
LIN
====
> Thatıs the way it is implemented. FACTOR does polynomial
factorization
> not rewriting.
Ok - an interesting limitation (TI-users will love this ;-).
> LIN
I still get Œ(EXP(2)+1)*EXP(X)ı with LIN?
====
> Thatıs the way it is implemented. FACTOR does polynomial
factorization
> not rewriting.
>
> Ok - an interesting limitation (TI-users will love this ;-).
??? Nice to know precisely what the calc does.
>
> LIN
>
> I still get Œ(EXP(2)+1)*EXP(X)ı with LIN?
>
It seems to work on my hp49, in exact and approx mode, with
or without ŒXı \
in ŒVXı.
My version is 1.19-5.
Camille
====
> Thatıs the way it is implemented. FACTOR does polynomial
factorization
> not rewriting.
>
> Ok - an interesting limitation (TI-users will love this ;-).
>
> LIN
>
> I still get Œ(EXP(2)+1)*EXP(X)ı with LIN?
>
Use DISTRIB, then LIN.
Greetings,
Nick.
====
> Use DISTRIB, then LIN.
Riiiight! That did it - thanks....
====
I am trying to compile a input form program with debug 2, it
is from the
examples Ŝle for sysrpl document. I am getting the following
errors which \
I
have been trying to work out for the last few days:
sasm.exe:
error opening_head.a for reading
sasm.exe:
error opening_table.a for reading
sasm.exe:
error opening_end.a for reading
Unexisting entry FPTR2
Help would be appreciated
MC
====
My guess is that you are trying to compile a library, and
that the library
creation (namely makerom) failed for some reason. For
example, if you do \
not
have a library number put in (did you do an include of your
project name.H
in at least one of your Ŝles?) or that you do not have xNAME
or NAMELESS \
in
your program...
> I am trying to compile a input form program with debug 2,
it is from the
> examples Ŝle for sysrpl document. I am getting the
following errors \
which
I
> have been trying to work out for the last few days:
> sasm.exe:
> error opening_head.a for reading
> sasm.exe:
> error opening_table.a for reading
> sasm.exe:
> error opening_end.a for reading
> Unexisting entry FPTR2
> Help would be appreciated
> MC
>
>
====
the following problem:
When I type xroot(3, 8), the answer 2 is showed (as expected)
But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested
and my expected
answer isnıt shown (that would be -2).
Is there some conŜguration I could do to solve the problem ?
Thanx.
====
> the following problem:
> When I type xroot(3, 8), the answer 2 is showed (as
expected)
> But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested
and my \
expected
> answer isnıt shown (that would be -2).
>
> Is there some conŜguration I could do to solve the problem ?
>
Your CAS has to be in aproximate mode.
> Thanx.
====
> the following problem:
> When I type xroot(3, 8), the answer 2 is showed (as
expected)
> But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested
and my \
expected
> answer isnıt shown (that would be -2).
Thatıs strange. As long as Iım in approximate mode, I get the
expected
-2. whether I use ŒXROOT(3,-8)ı EVAL or -8 3 XROOT. But in
exact mode, I
get Œ2*((1+i*\\v/3)/2)ı (where \\v/ is the radical
character), and EVAL on
that gives me Œ1+i*\\v/3ı. Well, if I cube that I do get -8,
but itıs
certainly not the answer that I wouldıve expected.
> Is there some conŜguration I could do to solve the problem ?
Use approximate mode. But I donıt have any idea why, other
than try not
to get the CAS involved in anything that doesnıt need it; it
seems to
have a habit of making things more complicated than they need
to be.
--
James
====
> the following problem:
> When I type xroot(3, 8), the answer 2 is showed (as
expected)
> But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested
and my \
expected
> answer isnıt shown (that would be -2).
>
> Thatıs strange. As long as Iım in approximate mode, I get
the expected
> -2. whether I use ŒXROOT(3,-8)ı EVAL or -8 3 XROOT. But in
exact mode, I
> get Œ2*((1+i*\\v/3)/2)ı (where \\v/ is the radical
character), and EVAL \
on
> that gives me Œ1+i*\\v/3ı. Well, if I cube that I do get
-8, but itıs
> certainly not the answer that I wouldıve expected.
>
>
when on the unit circle you start at an angle of 0 and go
counter
clockwise. The Ŝrst 3rd root of -8 that you meet is then
Œ2*((1+i*\\v/3)/2). (Seen in complex numbers marathon ;-))
Greetings,
Nick.
====
> But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested
and my
expected
> answer isnıt shown (that would be -2).
-2 is the answer with my 48GX. For the Ŝrst complex result, I
must use x^y
====
> the following problem:
> When I type xroot(3, 8), the answer 2 is showed (as
expected)
> But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested
and my
expected answer isnıt shown
> Is there some conŜguration I could do to solve the problem ?
>
XROOT always returns only one answer.
Try to use SOLVE:
XROOT(3,8) <=> SOLVE(X^3=8,X)
> ...(that would be -2).
Hmm, there are three answers, but there is no X=-2. ;)
Piotr Kowalewski.
====
Once I initiate the RECV or KGET commands putting the
calculator
in server mode how do I get out of it from within a program.
Help would be appreciated
Martin
====
> Once I initiate the RECV or KGET commands putting the
calculator
> in server mode how do I get out of it from within a program.
>
> Help would be appreciated
Neither RECV nor KGET put the calculator in server mode.
The RECV command tells the calculator to receive a Ŝle (using
the
Kermit protocol) from another device. The KGET tells the
calculator to
get a Ŝle (again using the Kermit protocol) from another
device which
is in Kermit server mode. If the other device doesnıt send a
Ŝle (or
respond to the KGET), the calculator will eventually (after
about 50
seconds) error out with a \Timeout\ error.
To put the calculator into server mode, use the SERVER
command to put it
in Kermit server mode, or in the case of the 49G, XSERV to
put it in
XModem server mode. While in Kermit server mode, the client
device can
terminate server mode by sending either a FINISH or LOGOUT
command to
the calculator. I donıt know that thereıs any way for an
XModem client
to terminate server mode. So far as terminating server mode
from the
calculator, the only ways that I know of is to cause an error
by
pressing the CANCEL (or ATTN, on a 48S series), or by having
a control
alarm come due.
Which calculator are you using?
--
James
====
James,
My problem is I am communicating with a SDL30
digital level and the only way to prompt the instrument to
start reading is to initiate the program
CLEAR \LM\ XMIT
RECV
and then press the cancel button on the calculator which
then starts the machine to read. Without the RECV command
for some reason the instrument will not initiate. Could it
just have something to do with my IOPAR { 1200 0 0 0 1 2}.
Martin
> Once I initiate the RECV or KGET commands putting the
calculator
> in server mode how do I get out of it from within a program.
>
> Help would be appreciated
>
> Neither RECV nor KGET put the calculator in server mode.
>
> The RECV command tells the calculator to receive a Ŝle
(using the
> Kermit protocol) from another device. The KGET tells the
calculator to
> get a Ŝle (again using the Kermit protocol) from another
device which
> is in Kermit server mode. If the other device doesnıt send
a Ŝle (or
> respond to the KGET), the calculator will eventually (after
about 50
> seconds) error out with a \Timeout\ error.
>
> To put the calculator into server mode, use the SERVER
command to put it
> in Kermit server mode, or in the case of the 49G, XSERV to
put it in
> XModem server mode. While in Kermit server mode, the client
device can
> terminate server mode by sending either a FINISH or LOGOUT
command to
> the calculator. I donıt know that thereıs any way for an
XModem client
> to terminate server mode. So far as terminating server mode
from the
> calculator, the only ways that I know of is to cause an
error by
> pressing the CANCEL (or ATTN, on a 48S series), or by
having a control
> alarm come due.
>
> Which calculator are you using?
>
>
> --
> James
>
====
> James,
>
> My problem is I am communicating with a SDL30
> digital level and the only way to prompt the instrument to
> start reading is to initiate the program
>  CLEAR \LM\ XMIT
> RECV
>  and then press the cancel button on the calculator which
> then starts the machine to read. Without the RECV command
> for some reason the instrument will not initiate. Could it
> just have something to do with my IOPAR { 1200 0 0 0 1 2}.
Iım not familiar with the SDL30 digital level other than that
itıs made
by Sokkia. I certainly donıt know which communication
parameters and
protocols it uses. Do you have any documentation for it? Are
you sure
that it uses the Kermit Ŝle transfer protocol?
Am I correct in guessing that youıre using a 48G series
calculator?
I can only guess that the SDL30 is trying to send a Ŝle, so
it waits
for the calculator to Ŝnish receiving it, but for some reason
a
connection isnıt established, and then the error packet from
the
calculator tells it to give up. What happens on the
calculator when it
gets to the RECV command? Do you get a \Connecting\ message?
Do you get
\Retry #1\ through \Retry #9\ messages? If you donıt press
CANCEL, Do
you eventually get a \Timeout\ error? Does a new variable
appear? Is an
existing variable overwritten?
Certainly IOPAR can cause communication problems. But what
the \correct\
values are depends at leat partly on the device that the
calculator is
connected to.
The default IOPAR is { 9600 0 0 0 3 1 }.
The Ŝrst value is the speed in bits per second; 1200, 2400,
4800, and
9600 are your choices.
The second value is for parity; your choices are 0 for none,
1 for
odd, 2 for even, 3 for mark, and 4 for space.
The third value is for receive pacing and the fourth is for
transmit
pacing. The choices for pacing are 0 for disable or 1
(actually, any
non-zero real number) for enable. Pacing is XON/XOFF software
ŝow
control, and itıs neither needed nor used with Kermit.
The Ŝfth parameter is for the packet error detection method;
the
choices are 1, 2, and 3. If the devices disagree on the
method, they
should both fall back to using 1, so it *should* work
regardless of
this. Used for Kermit only.
The sixth value is the Kermit ASCII transfer character
translation
code; the choices are 0, 1, 2, and 3. A proper File header
from the
sending device will override this, but I suppose that if the
header
doesnıt say otherwise, the current translation mode would be
used.
Used for Kermit ASCII transfers and print (over wire)
commands only.
You might also want to look at the system ŝags. The ones that
might be
particularly relevant are -33, -35, -36, -39, and maybe -51.
James
> Martin
>
> Once I initiate the RECV or KGET commands putting the
calculator
> in server mode how do I get out of it from within a program.
>
> Help would be appreciated
>
> Neither RECV nor KGET put the calculator in server mode.
>
> The RECV command tells the calculator to receive a Ŝle
(using the
> Kermit protocol) from another device. The KGET tells the
calculator to
> get a Ŝle (again using the Kermit protocol) from another
device which
> is in Kermit server mode. If the other device doesnıt send
a Ŝle (or
> respond to the KGET), the calculator will eventually (after
about 50
> seconds) error out with a \Timeout\ error.
>
> To put the calculator into server mode, use the SERVER
command to put \
it
> in Kermit server mode, or in the case of the 49G, XSERV to
put it in
> XModem server mode. While in Kermit server mode, the client
device can
> terminate server mode by sending either a FINISH or LOGOUT
command to
> the calculator. I donıt know that thereıs any way for an
XModem client
> to terminate server mode. So far as terminating server mode
from the
> calculator, the only ways that I know of is to cause an
error by
> pressing the CANCEL (or ATTN, on a 48S series), or by
having a control
> alarm come due.
>
> Which calculator are you using?
>
>
> --
> James
====
James,
was looking for in:-
CLEAR \LM\ XMIT DROP CR
It is rare, but if the level has a hardware (DTR/DSR) or
software \
(XON/XOFF)
ŝow control setting, turn it off.
====
While coding the library function mentioned in the thread
\SysRPL and unevaluated algebraic function\
I stumbled upon a bug in CRLIB
When you add a rompointer that contains only a string
the rompointer doesnıt appear in the menu but you can
access it by its name.
EXAMPLE
$ROMID 1207
$CONFIG 1
$TITLE \TEST\
$VISIBLE {STRING P}
$HIDDEN {}
P << 2 ^ >>
STRING \THIS IS A TEST\
Now build the lib with CRLIB store it in a port
and warmstart
after 1207 TMENU you see an empty label and then P
the empty label beeps if you press it but if you type in
STRING
you get \THIS IS A TEST\
I seem to remember a 48 libbuilder that could make
hidden commands but I donıt remember which one
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
I am not sure, but if I remember well, we have introduced a
mod in the 49
that allowed us to win quite a bit of space in the rom (itıs
something for
managing /displaying menus) and it has this draw back as a
side effect.
You can ŒŜxı the problem by embedding your string in a
program...
> While coding the library function mentioned in the thread
> \SysRPL and unevaluated algebraic function\
> I stumbled upon a bug in CRLIB
>
> When you add a rompointer that contains only a string
> the rompointer doesnıt appear in the menu but you can
> access it by its name.
>
> EXAMPLE
>
> $ROMID 1207
> $CONFIG 1
> $TITLE \TEST\
> $VISIBLE {STRING P}
> $HIDDEN {}
> P << 2 ^ >>
> STRING \THIS IS A TEST\
>
> Now build the lib with CRLIB store it in a port
>
> and warmstart
>
> after 1207 TMENU you see an empty label and then P
>
> the empty label beeps if you press it but if you type in
STRING
>
> you get \THIS IS A TEST\
>
> I seem to remember a 48 libbuilder that could make
>
> hidden commands but I donıt remember which one
>
> --
> This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
>
> Pivo
>
>
>
====
>
> I am not sure, but if I remember well, we have introduced a
mod in the 49
> that allowed us to win quite a bit of space in the rom
(itıs something \
for
> managing /displaying menus) and it has this draw back as a
side effect.
Not quite.
The last object of a library canıt be a string, or if it is a
string it \
will
be used to display the title in a choosebox menu.
You can put a string anywhere, but the last object canıt be
one.
I had to Ŝnd a way to display a title in a choosebox menu
without breaking
the existing format, so thatıs the solution Iıve used
====
> The last object of a library canıt be a string, or if it is
a string it \
will
> be used to display the title in a choosebox menu.
Which choose menu do you mean?
when I turn of the softmenu ŝag (-117) I still get softmenus
for
libraries
> You can put a string anywhere, but the last object canıt be
one.
But when it isnıt the last object it still doesnıt appear in
the
libmenu,
a bug maybe?

> I had to Ŝnd a way to display a title in a choosebox menu
without \
breaking
> the existing format, so thatıs the solution Iıve used
You can put anything after the hash table and nobody will
know :-0
I used this as a to make a \hackproof\ library since library
extractors
do not \see\ this area. I ran a program directly from the
library itself
by pointing the PC to this area
Unfortunately Thomas Rast cracked it in less than a day :-)
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
>
> The last object of a library canıt be a string, or if it is
a string it
will
> be used to display the title in a choosebox menu.
>
> Which choose menu do you mean?
> when I turn of the softmenu ŝag (-117) I still get
softmenus for
> libraries
If you clear the ŝag -117 (for choose box menu) you will see
that each \
menu
as a title. The way a title is deŜned is by using a string in
the library.
When creating the menu list, each time a string is found it
will be used as
the title for the menu. The last string found will be the
active menu \
title.
Give it a try, you will see (easy to experiment).
The downside, is that strings canıt be used in a library
directly, you must
put them in a program if you want to achieve the same result
====
> If you clear the ŝag -117 (for choose box menu) you will
see that each \
menu
> as a title. The way a title is deŜned is by using a string
in the \
library.
> When creating the menu list, each time a string is found it
will be used \
as
> the title for the menu. The last string found will be the
active menu \
title.
Are the strings written directly into the library or can
messagenumber be \
used?
Im just asking because of translation.
Greetings
Andreas
====
> I am not sure, but if I remember well, we have introduced a
mod in the 49
> that allowed us to win quite a bit of space in the rom
(itıs something \
for
> managing /displaying menus) and it has this draw back as a
side effect.
I gathered that it must have been a menu Œproblemı since the
lib was
Ŝne
> You can ŒŜxı the problem by embedding your string in a
program...
Fix? I was planning on using it for some hidden commands!
Are only strings affected? I tried some other types but
they all worked as they should.
--
This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
Pivo
====
Well, I think only string are affected... But did you try a
program with a
TakeOver ?
like:
:: TakeOver \foo\ and the rest of your program there? ;
>
> I am not sure, but if I remember well, we have introduced a
mod in the
49
> that allowed us to win quite a bit of space in the rom
(itıs something
for
> managing /displaying menus) and it has this draw back as a
side effect.
>
> I gathered that it must have been a menu Œproblemı since
the lib was
> Ŝne
>
> You can ŒŜxı the problem by embedding your string in a
program...
>
> Fix? I was planning on using it for some hidden commands!
> Are only strings affected? I tried some other types but
> they all worked as they should.
>
> --
> This message was written with 100% recycled electrons
>
> Pivo
====
I would like to column reduce rather than row reduce a matrix
to echelon
form. MATH MATRIX ROW RCIJ is the row reduction utility that
HP supplies \
on
the 48GX. Does anyone know how to look at the HP commands for
RCIJ so I
could modify it to work with columns? Or if not that how
would I program
mmstat@erols.com
====
\mmstat\ <mmstat@rcn.com> escribi\.97 en el mensaje
>
> I would like to column reduce rather than row reduce a
matrix to echelon
> form. MATH MATRIX ROW RCIJ is the row reduction utility
that HP supplies
on
> the 48GX. Does anyone know how to look at the HP commands
for RCIJ so I
> could modify it to work with columns? Or if not that how
would I program
>
> mmstat@erols.com
>
Could you use TRN, then row reduction, and Ŝnally TRN again?
I have programmed \rcij\ and \ccij\ commands for working with
numeric \
and
symbolic matrices, but they need MK and Erable instaled for
working...
====
I am wondering if it is possible to stop
this kind of loop while there are not a
RS232 reception.
0 STIME
.
.
.
DO
WHILE
KEY NOT
REPEAT
1 SRECV
DROP2
TICKS DUP ROT - B\\->R ROT MIN SWAP
Œjı INCR DROP
END
UNTIL
13 == @ \c\ key to stop after a RS232 reception.
END
I tried this one:
0 STIME
.
.
.
IFERR @ for [ON] key.
WHILE
1 REPEAT
1 SRECV
DROP2
TICKS DUP ROT - B\\->R ROT MIN SWAP
Œjı INCR DROP
END
THEN
END
But because of an unpredicted stopping, sometime I
lose some data.
Tal
====
>
> I am wondering if it is possible to stop
> this kind of loop while there are not a
> RS232 reception.
Sure, as long as you press the C key very quickly after the
last byte
arrives at the port. ;-)
Pressing CANCEL ought to stop it too, but I suppose not
usually quite
the way that you want.
> 0 STIME
> .
> .
> .
> DO
> WHILE
> KEY NOT
> REPEAT
> 1 SRECV
> DROP2
> TICKS DUP ROT - B\\->R ROT MIN SWAP
> Œjı INCR DROP
> END
> UNTIL
> 13 == @ \c\ key to stop after a RS232 reception.
> END
The problem is that with 0 STIME, 1 SRECV will wait
indeŜnitely for
something to arrive. So why not go back to using some other
value for
STIME, and proceed depending on whether an I/O error
(presumably # C02h,
\Timeout\) occurs from SRECV. You could do some additional
checking to
make sure that the error was really from a timeout. Yes,
there will be a
slight additional delay before executing TICKS if a byte
comes in after
SRECV times out and before the program loops back to SRECV
again, and
with 25.4 for STIME, the delay before the program actually
gets around
to checking the key is likely to be very noticeable, but
perhaps
acceptable. You could try the following:
25.4 STIME
.
.
.
DO
WHILE
KEY NOT
REPEAT
1 SRECV
IF
SWAP DROP @ Replace with NIP for 49G
THEN
TICKS DUP ROT - B\\->R ROT MIN SWAP
Œjı INCR DROP
END
END
UNTIL
13 == @ \c\ key to stop after a RS232 reception.
END
<snip>
--
James
====
Hey I saw this on comp.sys.handhelds I thought you guys would
get a kick \
out
of it. I have no tried it yet.
JIM
---------------------------------------------
Waterloo, Canada - September 9, 2002 - Poliplus Software is
thrilled to announce the much anticipated release of Formulae
1
for PocketPC (Compaq iPaq series devices).
Formulae 1 (F1) is a powerful and easy to use Computer Algebra
System designed specially for the teaching and exploration of
mathematics. F1 gives the user the ability to see intermediate
steps of calculations as well as Ŝnal answers. The step
feature
has tremendous pedagogical value that users will come to
appreciate
over and over again.
While there are several different numerical based calculator
programs for PDAs, there is nothing really that comes close to
the mathematical capabilites of F1. Transform your PDA into
the
next generation handheld Mathematics system designed to get
answers and see steps. If you are a student, this is a must
have application.
F1ıs User Interface was custom designed to optimize the use of
the small screen area of the device. Most of the screen area
is
available to view and manipulate math expressions, unlike
other
calculators where most of the screen is populated by buttons.
For a complete list of features (with lots of screen shots)
and
some more information go to :
http://www.poliplus.com/handheldproducts.htm
Formulae 1 for PocketPC requires Insigniaıs Jeode (Java
Virtual
Machine) which comes on the CD of every Compaq iPaq machine.
Jeode
allowed Formulae 1 to run unchanged and exactly on Sharp
Zaurus
we have been getting lots of positive feedback from Sharp
Zaurus
users. Formulae 1 quickly climbed to the 8th overall
bestselling
software list at Handango. The excitment has been
overwhelming. What
follows are some verbatim quotes from users and we hope these
testimonials will attest to not only our software capabilities
by also Jeodeıs.
-------------------------------------------------------------
----
I would like to congratulate to your marvellous program
called F1!
I couldnıt believe when I saw the advertisement on the Zaurus
portal.
At least I found a real CAS for my Zaurus! I was very happy
indeed.
And I am very content with F1 - itıs a cool piece of software
regarding footprint and functionality.
Compared to my CAS Iım using on my notebook computer, I must
say
that F1 solves most of my maths problems. Itıs most
astounding how
well F1 performs on the Zaurus. The graphical input method is
ingenious; I donıt have to bother with complicated text
deŜnitions
of my formulae like those found in other editors. Itıs much
more
like the state-of-the-art CAS Mathematica, if you allow the
comparison. I have to express my deepest respect to the
programmers.
-------------------------------------------------------------
----
Formulae 1 is a java based symbolic/numerical math engine. It
has
a very nice equation editor which can handle matricies,
integrals,
derivatives, and polynomials. The graphing functionality is
primitive
but very useful. The program appears to have very few if any
bugs. FOr students it is nice to have the step feature. I
recommend this to any science or mathematics students learning
or having to use basic calculus or linear algebra. An
additional nice
feature is the help system which is very very useful.
-------------------------------------------------------------
----
Formulae 1 is the software application that I have been
looking for
on a handheld device. What is nice about the product other
than
the rich features is that it is usable on various handhelds
because
it is written in Java. The feature list is extensive and
covers most
areas of mathematics found in calculus I and II class
material.
Features lacking in this version are limits, 3D plotting,
linear and
non-linear regression.
-------------------------------------------------------------
----
====
> Features lacking in this version are limits, 3D plotting,
linear and
> non-linear regression.
It seems there is no limit instructions, which means that the
CAS
is not that much advanced. I did not see any mention of a
programming
language. On the Zaurus you can run xcas, it has much more
features
and is free. And since the device where you run this prog is
around 400$
or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some success:
for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-).
<3D7CED8A.1030605@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr>
====
> Features lacking in this version are limits, 3D plotting,
linear and
> non-linear regression.
>
> It seems there is no limit instructions, which means that
the CAS
> is not that much advanced. I did not see any mention of a
programming
> language. On the Zaurus you can run xcas, it has much more
features
> and is free. And since the device where you run this prog
is around 400$
> or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some
success:
> for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-).
I prefer having my HP200LX with Derive for DOS... The same
software can
then be used on my home PC, if I need a little more speed...
;)
--
-----
Je viens dıadopter une limace (elle sıappele \Chompie\), et
jıai trouve
des infos sur un site qui nıa pas ete mis a jour depuis des
siecles!
Meme si lıauteur ne sıy interesse plus, le site garde tout
son interet.
-+- P in : Guide du Neuneu dıUsenet - Lı\.90re des limaces
m\.8edia -+-
====
> I prefer having my HP200LX with Derive for DOS... The same
software can
> then be used on my home PC, if I need a little more
speed... ;)
>
<3D7CED8A.1030605@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr>
<Pine.LNX.4.33.0209111753450.32657-100000@
patchwork.seclogd.org>
<3D7F75D4.9010404@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr>
====
> I prefer having my HP200LX with Derive for DOS... The same
software can
> then be used on my home PC, if I need a little more
speed... ;)
>
I tested it once, and even if I own and use a lot of HP calcs
(including
my 9 months-old HP49), I werenıt able to do anything useful
with xcas...
But since it must be my dumbness, I promise Iıll read the
doc, and try
again later ;)
In the meantime, Iım still reading the Deriveıs manual.
--
-----
Je crois que le meilleur moyen, cıest une signature qui
contient
toutes les signatures et de virer les mauvaises avant envoi.
-+- Ivan in : Guide du Neuneu dıUsenet : Je signe donc je
suis -+-
====
> I tested it once, and even if I own and use a lot of HP
calcs (including
> my 9 months-old HP49), I werenıt able to do anything useful
with xcas...
>
> But since it must be my dumbness, I promise Iıll read the
doc, and try
> again later ;)
>
It would be a good idea since xcas is evolving at a fast rate.
As explained in a previous post, you can for example read the
TI
AMS manual and try the same with xcas. There are also some
Maple or Mupad instructions that are implemented (but TI
compatibility
is much better). HP compatibility is currently the syntax and
RPN
mode, not for the instructions.
====
> And since the device where you run this prog is around 400$
> or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some
success:
> for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-).
Bernard,
It seems to me that you are neglecting people who already
have that
$400 device. I am a huge fan of the 48/49 (and sysRPL
programming) but
I also have an Ipaq 3835, and so I just purchased Formulae 1.
This is not an indication that I donıt like the CAS in the
49, simply
the reality that the 49 is now an obsolete device, no longer
produced
or supported. Reality dictates that I move on and I Ŝnd that
when I
want to pack one device with me, itıs the Ipaq. Itıs current,
supported, has an ever-increasing software base and allows me
do do a
multitude of tasks.
Simon
====
> It seems to me that you are neglecting people who already
have that
> $400 device. I am a huge fan of the 48/49 (and sysRPL
programming) but
> I also have an Ipaq 3835, and so I just purchased Formulae
1.

Most of xcas interface and development has been done thinking
about
handheld users, and you should know that Prof. Parisse uses
ipaq with
Familiar distro to test (so do I).
> This is not an indication that I donıt like the CAS in the
49, simply
> the reality that the 49 is now an obsolete device, no
longer produced
> or supported. Reality dictates that I move on and I Ŝnd
that when I
> want to pack one device with me, itıs the Ipaq. Itıs
current,
> supported, has an ever-increasing software base and allows
me do do a
> multitude of tasks.
I am agree with the idea, but not with the cost of such
device..
thatıs the reason I have started a project to create a low
cost
gnu/linux platform. It is already in early stages.
J.Manrique
Users Club from Gij\.97n
#1077 HPCC Member
====
>
> And since the device where you run this prog is around 400$
> or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some
success:
> for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-).
>
> Bernard,
>
> It seems to me that you are neglecting people who already
have that
> $400 device. I am a huge fan of the 48/49 (and sysRPL
programming) but
> I also have an Ipaq 3835, and so I just purchased Formulae
1.
Carlos.
> This is not an indication that I donıt like the CAS in the
49, simply
> the reality that the 49 is now an obsolete device, no
longer produced
> or supported. Reality dictates that I move on and I Ŝnd
that when I
> want to pack one device with me, itıs the Ipaq. Itıs
current,
> supported, has an ever-increasing software base and allows
me do do a
> multitude of tasks.
>
> Simon
====
>>And since the device where you run this prog is around 400$
>>or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some
success:
>>for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-).
>
>
> Bernard,
>
> It seems to me that you are neglecting people who already
have that
> $400 device. I am a huge fan of the 48/49 (and sysRPL
programming) but
> I also have an Ipaq 3835, and so I just purchased Formulae
1.
>
There is a misunderstanding here: I develop and run xcas on
my ipaq. So
you canıt say Iım neglecting the ipaq, to the contrary. I did
choose
to develop a native application, which I think is mandatory
when you want to solve real-world problem. This means that
xcas
is not a java, but a true C++ application. It is compiled with
but it does not ship a complete ANSI-C++ compiler).
Either replace wince or install it on a ŝashcard. Then you
will
need around 1.5M of ŝash to store the app.
More info
http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/giac.html
xcas is not completely ready for prime-time release but it has
today around 95% of the HP49 and TI89 functionnality. If you
have
a TI-Basic program, you can run it with xcas except if it uses
some of the pixel graphic or stats instructions (see below).
If you prefer RPN, just check the mode. Or you can program
it using C like syntax. Other features are interactive
debugger,
dynamic geometry, pretty-print, on-line help etc. And since it
/* TI89 compatibility Notes
Use maple_mode(3) in your conŜg Ŝle (~/.xcasrc or xcas.rc) or
begin your session with cas conŜguration (or type
maple_mode(3))
1/ Instructions implemented
Algebra: all
Calculus: all except product
Strings: all
Graphics: pixel instructions are not implemented except
PxlOn/PxlOff
And/Xor/Pixel tests are not implemented
Zoom instructions not implemented except ZoomSto/ZoomRcl
BldData/RclGDB/StoGDB not implemented
Graph currently points to drawFunc
Lists: all, note that SortA/SortD are implemented for 1 arg
only
Maths: all except conversions and units
Matrices: all except statistics.
LU/QR work with numeric matrices and tolerance argument is
ignored
Program: all except
mode handling, units,
getKeys, the Custom and Toolbar instructions
Lock/Unlock
Stats: !, rand, RandSeed, nCr, nPr
2/ Be sure to use correct case. archive (native) is not like
Archive (TI)
Conversion of special char (ASCII code >128)
conversion sign translated to to
Store sign: =>
Different: != or <>, Greater or equal: >=, Lower or equal: <=
i=sqrt(-1): use the i button of xcas
transpose sign not translated (use transpose())
*/
====
>
>>And since the device where you run this prog is around 400$
>>or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some
success:
>>for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-).
>
>
> Bernard,
>
> It seems to me that you are neglecting people who already
have that
> $400 device. I am a huge fan of the 48/49 (and sysRPL
programming) but
> I also have an Ipaq 3835, and so I just purchased Formulae
1.
>
>
> There is a misunderstanding here: I develop and run xcas on
my ipaq. So
> you canıt say Iım neglecting the ipaq, to the contrary. I
did choose
> to develop a native application, which I think is mandatory
> when you want to solve real-world problem. This means that
xcas
> is not a java, but a true C++ application.
This is completely irrelevant for users. The software is
pretty fast
and in the case of Zaurus, the user doesnıt even know it is
running
Java. As long as the software runs fast enough you could as
well
have programmed it in \logo\ :)
Carlos.
> It is compiled with
> but it does not ship a complete ANSI-C++ compiler).
> Either replace wince or install it on a ŝashcard. Then you
will
> need around 1.5M of ŝash to store the app.
> More info
> http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/giac.html
> xcas is not completely ready for prime-time release but it
has
> today around 95% of the HP49 and TI89 functionnality. If
you have
> a TI-Basic program, you can run it with xcas except if it
uses
> some of the pixel graphic or stats instructions (see below).
> If you prefer RPN, just check the mode. Or you can program
> it using C like syntax. Other features are interactive
debugger,
> dynamic geometry, pretty-print, on-line help etc. And since
it
>
> /* TI89 compatibility Notes
> Use maple_mode(3) in your conŜg Ŝle (~/.xcasrc or xcas.rc)
or
> begin your session with cas conŜguration (or type
maple_mode(3))
>
> 1/ Instructions implemented
> Algebra: all
> Calculus: all except product
> Strings: all
> Graphics: pixel instructions are not implemented except \
PxlOn/PxlOff
> And/Xor/Pixel tests are not implemented
> Zoom instructions not implemented except ZoomSto/ZoomRcl
> BldData/RclGDB/StoGDB not implemented
> Graph currently points to drawFunc
> Lists: all, note that SortA/SortD are implemented for 1 arg
only
> Maths: all except conversions and units
> Matrices: all except statistics.
> LU/QR work with numeric matrices and tolerance argument is \
ignored
> Program: all except
> mode handling, units,
> getKeys, the Custom and Toolbar instructions
> Lock/Unlock
> Stats: !, rand, RandSeed, nCr, nPr
>
> 2/ Be sure to use correct case. archive (native) is not like
> Archive (TI)
> Conversion of special char (ASCII code >128)
> conversion sign translated to to
> Store sign: =>
> Different: != or <>, Greater or equal: >=, Lower or equal:
<=
> i=sqrt(-1): use the i button of xcas
> transpose sign not translated (use transpose())
> */
====
>
> This is completely irrelevant for users. The software is
pretty fast
> and in the case of Zaurus, the user doesnıt even know it is
running
> Java. As long as the software runs fast enough you could as
well
> have programmed it in \logo\ :)
>
I donıt think users want to have one program when for example
a 10*
faster with the same capabilities exists (I donıt know the
speed
decrease when you use java instead of C++ but I would guess
some
factor around 10).
Then Iım curious what you describe as fast enough. Could you
give
us some benchmarks, like
int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x)
invert a 15x15 matrix with random coefŜcients in -99..99
factor(x^100+1)
====
>
>
> This is completely irrelevant for users. The software is
pretty fast
> and in the case of Zaurus, the user doesnıt even know it is
running
> Java. As long as the software runs fast enough you could as
well
> have programmed it in \logo\ :)
>
>
> I donıt think users want to have one program when for
example a 10*
> faster with the same capabilities exists (I donıt know the
speed
If you are solving a math problem that takes 1 second to
solve, a
program that solves the same in 100 milliseconds is
irrelevant.
1 second is close enough to being instantaneous.
> decrease when you use java instead of C++ but I would guess
some
> factor around 10).
Jeode compiles the Java code on demand and most operations are
almost instantaneous.
> Then Iım curious what you describe as fast enough. Could
you give
> us some benchmarks, like
> int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x)
> invert a 15x15 matrix with random coefŜcients in -99..99
> factor(x^100+1)
Could you provide the steps xcas provides when solving the
following problems step by step :
int(x^2*exp(2*x),x)
int(ln(x^2+a^2),x)
int((-4*x-88)/(x^2+2*x+5),x)
solve(x+2*abs(x)>12,x)
solve(sqrt(ln(x))=ln(sqrt(x)),x)
sin(acos(sqrt(5)/5))
I want to see the steps !!! not just the Ŝnal answer.
Once again, our intended audience is different and what you
seem
interested in doing is not what we view our customers doing.
====
You said that the speed was not important to the user where
I disagree and I asked about some benchmarks, I note that
you donıt answer which is in itself an answer.
I never said that steb by step was not important, to the
contrary,
I just did not have time to implement it right now. But donıt
worry it will be added. And itıs not only feasible but rather
easy, on the other side, if you can not solve the kind of
problems
I gave, it will be much harder for you to implement.
====
>
> You said that the speed was not important to the user where
> I disagree and I asked about some benchmarks, I note that
> you donıt answer which is in itself an answer.
You havenıt answered my questions either.
> I never said that steb by step was not important, to the
contrary,
> I just did not have time to implement it right now. But
donıt
> worry it will be added. And itıs not only feasible but
rather
> easy,
Really... Let me know when you have properly implemented
step-by-step integration for example and letıs compare
implementations !!!
> on the other side, if you can not solve the kind of problems
> I gave, it will be much harder for you to implement.
Yeah right, donıt forget I have access to lots of source
code including YOURS !!! Not that I would use any since
everything we do must Ŝt nicely with the step-by-step
framework (i.e. the steps must be the same as the ones
students would produce by hand. Steps that are illustrated
in typical high school/college/university textbooks.
====
>
> Yeah right, donıt forget I have access to lots of source
> code including YOURS !!! Not that I would use any since
> everything we do must Ŝt nicely with the step-by-step
> framework (i.e. the steps must be the same as the ones
> students would produce by hand. Steps that are illustrated
> in typical high school/college/university textbooks.
You can not use my source unless you release your application
under the GPL. You can use the same algorithms as I use of
course.
The fact that almost every CAS use algorithms that are not
teached shows that if you refuse to use them, your CAS will
only remain a pedagogical tool. I claim that it is possible
to have both.
====
>
> Features lacking in this version are limits, 3D plotting,
linear and
> non-linear regression.
>
> It seems there is no limit instructions, which means that
the CAS
> is not that much advanced. I did not see any mention of a
programming
> language. On the Zaurus you can run xcas, it has much more
features
> and is free. And since the device where you run this prog
is around 400$
> or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some
success:
> for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-).
So lack of limits, to you, means not advanced... interesting.
Limits are trivial to implement !!!
I beleive the press release was for PocketPC but you just
have to promote your own offering for the Zaurus...
interesting.
Iıd love to see what Formulae 1 users have to say about your
system once they have access to our simple to use and yet
uniquely powerful and automatic CAS.
Carlos.
====
>
> So lack of limits, to you, means not advanced...
interesting.
Of course. Limits are used in many areas like derivation
(theory)
or integration with bounds and is teached during highschool,
if
your system does not solve limit then it is not of much use
compared
e.g. to the TI89 or HP49/40.
> Limits are trivial to implement !!!
>
That shows you didnıt really try to implement them, maybe
you just think of LıHopitalıs rule, but a correct limit
implementation is much more complex than that. xcas can
solve the following limits (using the mrv algorithm
which is unfortunately not implemented on the 49)
limit( exp(x)*(exp(1/x-exp(-x))-exp(1/x)), x=+inŜnity);
limit(
exp(x)*(exp(1/x+exp(-x)+exp(-x^2))-exp(1/x-exp(-exp(x)))),
x=+inŜnity);
limit( exp(exp(x-exp(-x))/(1-1/x))-exp(exp(x)), x=+inŜnity);
limit(
exp(exp(exp(x)/(1-1/x)))-exp(exp(exp(x)/(1-1/x-ln(x)^(-ln(x))
))),
x=+inŜnity);
limit( exp(exp(exp(x+exp(-x))))/exp(exp(exp(x))), x=+inŜnity);
limit(exp(exp(exp(x)))/exp(exp(exp(x-exp(-x)))),x=+inŜnity);
limit(exp(exp(exp(x)))/exp(exp(exp(x-exp(-exp(exp(x)))))),x=+
inŜnity);
limit(exp(exp(x))/exp(exp(x-exp(-exp(exp(x))))),x=+inŜnity);
limit(x*ln(x)*ln(x*exp(x)-x^2)^2/ln(ln(x^2+2*exp(exp(3*x^3*ln
(x))))),x=+inŜ\
nity);
limit((exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/x,x
=+inŜnity);
limit((3^x+5^x)^(1/x),x=+inŜnity);
limit(x/ln(x^(ln(x)^(ln(2)/ln(x)))),x=+inŜnity);
limit(exp(exp(2*ln(x^5+x)*ln(ln(x))))/exp(exp(10*ln(x)*ln(ln(
x)))),x=+inŜni\
ty);
limit((exp(4*x*exp(-x)/(1/exp(x)+1/exp(2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))
/exp(x)^4,x=+in\
Ŝnity);
limit(exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))/exp(x),x=+
inŜnity);
limit(
exp(exp(-x/(1+exp(-x))))*exp(-x/(1+exp(-x/(1+exp(-x)))))*exp(
exp(-x+exp(-x/(\
1+exp(-x)))))/exp(-x/(1+exp(-x)))^2-exp(x)+x,
x=+inŜnity);
limit(
(ln(ln(x)+ln(ln(x)))-ln(ln(x)))*ln(x)/ln(ln(x)+ln(ln(ln(x)))),
x=+inŜnity);
limit(exp(ln(ln(x+exp(ln(x)*ln(ln(x)))))/ln(ln(ln(exp(x)+x+ln
(x))))),x=+inŜ\
nity);
limit(exp(x)*(sin(1/x+exp(-x))-sin(1/x+exp(-x^2))),x=+inŜnity
);
limit(exp(exp(x))*(exp(sin(1/x+exp(-exp(x))))-exp(sin(1/x))),
x=+inŜnity);
limit(
(exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/x,x=+
inŜnity);
limit( ln(ln(x*exp(x*exp(x))+1))-exp(exp(ln(ln(x))+1/x)),
x=+inŜnity);
limit(sqrt(x+sqrt(x))-sqrt(x),x=+inŜnity);
limit(sqrt(x+sqrt(x+sqrt(x)))-sqrt(x+sqrt(x)),x=+inŜnity);
limit(4/9*exp(exp(5/2*x^(-5/7)+21/8*x^(6/11)+2*x^(-8)+54/17*x
^(49/45)))^8/ln\
(ln(-ln(4/3*x^(-5/14))))^(7/6),x=+inŜnity);
limit(ln(x)^2*exp(sqrt(ln(x))*ln(ln(x))^2*exp(sqrt(ln(ln(x)))
*ln(ln(ln(x)))^\
3))/sqrt(x),x=+inŜnity);
> I beleive the press release was for PocketPC but you just
> have to promote your own offering for the Zaurus...
interesting.
>
Form your post
<<Jeode allowed Formulae 1 to run unchanged and exactly on
Sharp Zaurus
of the Zaurus, where xcas runs also (once you install X11).
And what you call an offering
is not a $$-software, xcas is GPL-ed soft, I wonıt gain any
money,
itıs just I donıt want people owning an HP to spend 30$
without knowing
there are more powerful free alternatives.
> Iıd love to see what Formulae 1 users have to say about your
> system once they have access to our simple to use and yet
> uniquely powerful and automatic CAS.
>
Yes, please tell your customers about xcas if they have a
They might discover that maybe the donıt have step by step now
but in exchange they have a much more complete CAS with
dynamic
geometry, programmation, RPN mode and soon able to run many
TI89/92
Basic programs.
====
from which this material was excerpted.>>
<<For the purposes of providing background for my comments:
1) I own multiple HP-49G calculators, a HP-48GM calculators
and
several other HP calculators. I own a TI-89 calculator.
2) I worked with Dr. B. Parisseıs, who is the equivalent of an
American university professor in mathematics, software when
it was in development on the HP-48GX and HP-49SX platforms.
At least one of my suggestions was incorporated into that
software.
3) If I understand your term ``techo-lordıı correctly, then I
am
a ``techo-lord.ıı I like powerful, capable, ŝexible tools.>>
>If our customers request such features, we will certainly
implement
>them. Thatıs for sure.
That is good to heard.
Do not ignore the ``techo-lords.ıı
It is very likely that they will be part of your customer base
also. I looked at your WWW accessible material. Unfortunately
for me, I neither have a platform on which to execute it nor
have a way of ordering if I did own an appropriate platform.
> But keep in mind that we favour ease of use
>and math learning to complicated systems when you have to
learn the
>system instead of learning math.
The TI-89 is hard to use and requires much system learning
just
because it was ``dumbed downıı for the ``general publicıı and
the
teaching community. I stipulate that there are many excellent
teachers. Unfortunately, the excellent teachers can work with
even bad tools or a log (large wooden object that is the
immediate
result of harvesting trees). Therefore, TI designed the
machine
for the remaining teachers that need support systems to be
able
to teach. TI recognizes that fact and provides prepared
syllabi,
lesson plans, lessons, presentation material, special manuals
for the equipment that explain what problems with the machine
the students may encounter and how to solve those problem on
the
machine. (I wish that I had one of those manuals---it has to
be better than the manual that came with the machine.)
I learned calculus, linear algebra and differential equations
(at
the college level) on the HP-48 with B. Parisseıs Erable. It
could assist solving the problems. The TI-89 was almost
useless.
Follow the Einstein adage: make it as simple as possible; but
no simpler. I opine that HP did and TI did not.
We are going after the general
>public and not the technical-lords ;)
``The poor we will have with us always.ıı
For much of the masses, a ``four function immediate operation
calculatorıı (which can be bought for US$2) presents a
challenge.
>Carlos.
====
> TI recognizes that fact and provides prepared syllabi,
> lesson plans, lessons, presentation material, special
manuals
> for the equipment that explain what problems with the
machine
> the students may encounter and how to solve those problem
on the
> machine.
\provides\ means \sells\ in this case. I am told my my math
professor
(Arizona State Univ) that is the primary reason the
department has stopped
recommending TI calculators, that they have turned
documentation into
more of a proŜt center than the hardware itself.
--
====
X
> That shows you didnıt really try to implement them, maybe
> you just think of LıHopitalıs rule, but a correct limit
> implementation is much more complex than that. xcas can
> solve the following limits (using the mrv algorithm
> which is unfortunately not implemented on the 49)
X
Well then you probably can program that to the 1.19-7
Iım sure JYA will help you. Will you do it?
====
> X
> Well then you probably can program that to the 1.19-7
> Iım sure JYA will help you. Will you do it?
I donıt have time to program mrv on the 49. Programming
xcas takes too much time and since there is no hope
of having more memory and speed on the 49...
====
>
>
> So lack of limits, to you, means not advanced...
interesting.
>
> Of course. Limits are used in many areas like derivation
(theory)
> or integration with bounds and is teached during
highschool, if
> your system does not solve limit then it is not of much use
compared
> e.g. to the TI89 or HP49/40.
Non-sense. There is no colleration between a system having
limits
and being advanced. Having limits does not make a system
advanced
and vice-versa, as your original comment suggested.
>
> Limits are trivial to implement !!!
>
>
> That shows you didnıt really try to implement them, maybe
> you just think of LıHopitalıs rule, but a correct limit
> implementation is much more complex than that. xcas can
> solve the following limits (using the mrv algorithm
> which is unfortunately not implemented on the 49)
> limit( exp(x)*(exp(1/x-exp(-x))-exp(1/x)), x=+inŜnity);
> limit(
exp(x)*(exp(1/x+exp(-x)+exp(-x^2))-exp(1/x-exp(-exp(x)))),
> x=+inŜnity);
> limit( exp(exp(x-exp(-x))/(1-1/x))-exp(exp(x)), x=+inŜnity);
> limit(
exp(exp(exp(x)/(1-1/x)))-exp(exp(exp(x)/(1-1/x-ln(x)^(-ln(x))
))),
> x=+inŜnity);
> limit( exp(exp(exp(x+exp(-x))))/exp(exp(exp(x))),
x=+inŜnity);
> limit(exp(exp(exp(x)))/exp(exp(exp(x-exp(-x)))),x=+inŜnity);
>
limit(exp(exp(exp(x)))/exp(exp(exp(x-exp(-exp(exp(x)))))),x=+
inŜnity);
> limit(exp(exp(x))/exp(exp(x-exp(-exp(exp(x))))),x=+inŜnity);
> \
limit(x*ln(x)*ln(x*exp(x)-x^2)^2/ln(ln(x^2+2*exp(exp(3*x^3*ln
(x))))),x=+inŜn\
ity);
>
limit((exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/x,x
=+inŜnity);
> limit((3^x+5^x)^(1/x),x=+inŜnity);
> limit(x/ln(x^(ln(x)^(ln(2)/ln(x)))),x=+inŜnity);
> \
limit(exp(exp(2*ln(x^5+x)*ln(ln(x))))/exp(exp(10*ln(x)*ln(ln(
x)))),x=+inŜnit\
y);
> \
limit((exp(4*x*exp(-x)/(1/exp(x)+1/exp(2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))
/exp(x)^4,x=+inf\
inity);
>
limit(exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))/exp(x),x=+
inŜnity);
> limit(
> \
exp(exp(-x/(1+exp(-x))))*exp(-x/(1+exp(-x/(1+exp(-x)))))*exp(
exp(-x+exp(-x/(1\
+exp(-x)))))/exp(-x/(1+exp(-x)))^2-exp(x)+x,
> x=+inŜnity);
> limit(
(ln(ln(x)+ln(ln(x)))-ln(ln(x)))*ln(x)/ln(ln(x)+ln(ln(ln(x)))),
> x=+inŜnity);
> \
limit(exp(ln(ln(x+exp(ln(x)*ln(ln(x)))))/ln(ln(ln(exp(x)+x+ln
(x))))),x=+inŜn\
ity);
>
limit(exp(x)*(sin(1/x+exp(-x))-sin(1/x+exp(-x^2))),x=+inŜnity
);
> \
limit(exp(exp(x))*(exp(sin(1/x+exp(-exp(x))))-exp(sin(1/x))),
x=+inŜnity);
> limit( \
(exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/x,x=+
inŜnity);
> limit( ln(ln(x*exp(x*exp(x))+1))-exp(exp(ln(ln(x))+1/x)),
x=+inŜnity);
> limit(sqrt(x+sqrt(x))-sqrt(x),x=+inŜnity);
> limit(sqrt(x+sqrt(x+sqrt(x)))-sqrt(x+sqrt(x)),x=+inŜnity);
> \
limit(4/9*exp(exp(5/2*x^(-5/7)+21/8*x^(6/11)+2*x^(-8)+54/17*x
^(49/45)))^8/ln(\
ln(-ln(4/3*x^(-5/14))))^(7/6),x=+inŜnity);
> \
limit(ln(x)^2*exp(sqrt(ln(x))*ln(ln(x))^2*exp(sqrt(ln(ln(x)))
*ln(ln(ln(x)))^3\
))/sqrt(x),x=+inŜnity);
Wrong again. we have implemented limits on the previous WinCE
version
but took it out of this \initial\ Zaurus/PocketPC release.
>
> I beleive the press release was for PocketPC but you just
> have to promote your own offering for the Zaurus...
interesting.
>
>
> Form your post
> <<Jeode allowed Formulae 1 to run unchanged and exactly on
Sharp Zaurus
> of the Zaurus, where xcas runs also (once you install X11).
> And what you call an offering
> is not a $$-software, xcas is GPL-ed soft, I wonıt gain any
money,
> itıs just I donıt want people owning an HP to spend 30$
without knowing
> there are more powerful free alternatives.
Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not
\advanced\)
without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits and
then
you went already to praise your own system. I wonıt bother
trashing
your program but I am sure our software does a lot of things
your
software doesnıt and vice-versa.
Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder.
When it
comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved,
Formulae 1
is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there.
DeŜnitively
worth $30.
Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima
which is also
free and also runs on Zaurus. Now letıs see how powerful xcas
does
against Maxima.
>
> Iıd love to see what Formulae 1 users have to say about your
> system once they have access to our simple to use and yet
> uniquely powerful and automatic CAS.
>
>
> Yes, please tell your customers about xcas if they have a
> They might discover that maybe the donıt have step by step
now
> but in exchange they have a much more complete CAS with
dynamic
> geometry, programmation, RPN mode and soon able to run many
TI89/92
> Basic programs.
If our customers request such features, we will certainly
implement
them. Thatıs for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease
of use
and math learning to complicated systems when you have to
learn the
system instead of learning math. We are going after the
general
public and not the technical-lords ;)
Carlos.
====
> Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not
\advanced\)
Studying Management Engineering I have learned that cost are
never
\irrelevant\..
> without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits
and then
> you went already to praise your own system. I wonıt bother
trashing
It would be better saying that he is giving info about
alternatives..
Instead of trashing his arguments you should try his system
and
compares it to yours.
> your program but I am sure our software does a lot of
things your
> software doesnıt and vice-versa.
Yes, it always happens.. but being open software lacks could
be
completed by anyone, not waiting for a company decission to
make it.

> Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder.
When it
> comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved,
Formulae 1
> is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there.
DeŜnitively
> worth $30.
I am sure that it worth $30, it is your work.

> Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima
which is also
> free and also runs on Zaurus. Now letıs see how powerful
xcas does
> against Maxima.
Yes, letıs see.. have you done it? Now, we have 3 CAS running
in
handhelds, two open source and free, and one propietary.. and
each
using:
- clisp (Maxima)
- c++ (Giac/Xcas)
- java (Formulae 1)
Oops.. sorry, I forget Yacas.. it runs in Familiar distro too
and it
is c++ system too..
It would be nice a comparasion like to one in
sci.math.symbolic about
CAS systems in PC.
> If our customers request such features, we will certainly
implement
> them. Thatıs for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease
of use
> and math learning to complicated systems when you have to
learn the
> system instead of learning math. We are going after the
general
> public and not the technical-lords ;)
I wouldnıt call xcas a technical-lords apps, at least not
more than a
hp calculator. Of course, being a technical-lord it could be
possible
to make a lot of things with it without waiting for
propietary company
update, just read the source and modify it to Ŝt your needs..
but
this is for technical-lords ;)
J.Manrique
Users Club from Gij\.97n
#1077 HPCC Member
====
>
> Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not
\advanced\)
>
> Studying Management Engineering I have learned that cost
are never
> \irrelevant\..
Just irrelevant to the conversation of something being crap
or not.
> without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits
and then
> you went already to praise your own system. I wonıt bother
trashing
>
> It would be better saying that he is giving info about
alternatives..
> Instead of trashing his arguments you should try his system
and
> compares it to yours.
It should be the other way around (he should try our system
and
compare with his) because he was the one commenting on our
system.
I have no interest comparing systems or commenting on his
system.
> your program but I am sure our software does a lot of
things your
> software doesnıt and vice-versa.
>
> Yes, it always happens.. but being open software lacks
could be
> completed by anyone, not waiting for a company decission to
make it.
This is off topic. There are lots of beneŜts and problems with
each model (open-source and proprietaty) and the discussion
should
go somewhere else.
> Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder.
When it
> comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved,
Formulae 1
> is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there.
\
DeŜnitively
> worth $30.
>
> I am sure that it worth $30, it is your work.
Not only that, it does useful things for
math/science/engineering students
that other similar programs can not do and that functionality
is \
deŜnitively
worth #30.
> Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima
which is also
> free and also runs on Zaurus. Now letıs see how powerful
xcas does
> against Maxima.
>
> Yes, letıs see.. have you done it? Now, we have 3 CAS
running in
> handhelds, two open source and free, and one propietary..
and each
> using:
> - clisp (Maxima)
> - c++ (Giac/Xcas)
> - java (Formulae 1)
>
> Oops.. sorry, I forget Yacas.. it runs in Familiar distro
too and it
> is c++ system too..
>
> It would be nice a comparasion like to one in
sci.math.symbolic about
> CAS systems in PC.
It would be nice. I wonıt be doing the comparison thatıs for
sure. Whoever
does it, just make sure to compare apples to apples.
On the PC, there are several open source and free systems,
yet commercial
and proprietary Maple and Mathematica are doing pretty well.
>
> If our customers request such features, we will certainly
implement
> them. Thatıs for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease
of use
> and math learning to complicated systems when you have to
learn the
> system instead of learning math. We are going after the
general
> public and not the technical-lords ;)
>
> I wouldnıt call xcas a technical-lords apps, at least not
more than a
> hp calculator. Of course, being a technical-lord it could
be possible
> to make a lot of things with it without waiting for
propietary company
> update, just read the source and modify it to Ŝt your
needs.. but
> this is for technical-lords ;)
This is all good, just not the market we are going after.
Carlos.
>
>
> J.Manrique
> Users Club from Gij\.97n
> #1077 HPCC Member
====
> It should be the other way around (he should try our system
and
> compare with his) because he was the one commenting on our
system.
> I have no interest comparing systems or commenting on his
system.
>
No, it is the right way because you can try xcas without
spending
any $. I must pay 30$ to try your system.
Of course you have no interest comparing publicly systems,
itıs
much easier.
> It would be nice. I wonıt be doing the comparison thatıs
for sure. \
Whoever
> does it, just make sure to compare apples to apples.
>
> On the PC, there are several open source and free systems,
yet commercial
> and proprietary Maple and Mathematica are doing pretty well.
>
I would certainly not describe maple or mathematica as \not
that
advanced CAS.\
====
>
> It should be the other way around (he should try our system
and
> compare with his) because he was the one commenting on our
system.
> I have no interest comparing systems or commenting on his
system.
>
>
> No, it is the right way because you can try xcas without
spending
> any $. I must pay 30$ to try your system.
So you are telling me that because you are cheap, it is ok for
you to comment on our system (and compare it to yours) without
actually trying it. and futhermore, because your system is
free,
I should spend time and compare it to Formulae 1 for you.
You donıt have anything Ŝnal. Why donıt you just come up with
a Ŝnal end user product, release it and then show rave reviews
from users.
> Of course you have no interest comparing publicly systems,
itıs
> much easier.
>
> It would be nice. I wonıt be doing the comparison thatıs
for sure. \
Whoever
> does it, just make sure to compare apples to apples.
>
> On the PC, there are several open source and free systems,
yet \
commercial
> and proprietary Maple and Mathematica are doing pretty well.
>
>
> I would certainly not describe maple or mathematica as \not
that
> advanced CAS.\
====
> So you are telling me that because you are cheap, it is ok
for
> you to comment on our system (and compare it to yours)
without
> actually trying it. and futhermore, because your system is
free,
> I should spend time and compare it to Formulae 1 for you.
>
I can comment your system by the specs that are publicly
available.
It is clear that you lack some fundemental instructions and
it seems also that you do not provide a programming language
and I donıt remember seeing a geometry application.
> You donıt have anything Ŝnal. Why donıt you just come up
with
> a Ŝnal end user product, release it and then show rave
reviews
> from users.
>
xcas is perfectly usable. It has a complete French
documentation.
Itıs not a commercial soft, I donıt need to make a formal
release.
It has always worked that way with Erable for the 48.
The main current advantage of formulae1 is that people can
use it on
their zaurus without installing X, and you did more
advertising so
that people know about it.
<3D7CED8A.1030605@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> \
<3D7CF0ED.6548@SPAMpoliplus.com>
<3D7D90B4.8080002@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> \
<3D7E0110.324F@SPAMpoliplus.com>
<11624751.0209102319.251106c8@posting.google.com> \
<3D7F9A39.7775@SPAMpoliplus.com>
<3D803773.7060802@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> \
<3D80A2AD.4AD6@SPAMpoliplus.com>
====
>
Why is this thread turning into ŝamewar?
--
-----
\.82a fait 5 jours que je pose des questions, je nıai aucune
r\.8eponse, \
\.88
part des remontrances. Vous r\.8epondez de bonne foi ou vous
passez ! Ce
que vous pensez nıa pas dıint\.8er\.90t, r\.8epondez-y
seulement...
-+- Joe in: Guide du Neuneu dıUsenet - Ze veux z\.8e
z\.8exige -+-
Reply-To: \G Savage\ <NOsavageSPAM@europa.com>
====
>
>
>
> Why is this thread turning into ŝamewar?
In American-English itıs called: \ego\.
GS
====
>
> Wrong again. we have implemented limits on the previous
WinCE version
> but took it out of this \initial\ Zaurus/PocketPC release.
>
I really wonder why you decided to remove the limit
instruction
if you had it on wince. Is it a commercial decision to propose
buyers of the Ŝrst version another version and get some $?
>
> Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not
\advanced\)
> without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits
and then
> you went already to praise your own system. I wonıt bother
trashing
> your program but I am sure our software does a lot of
things your
> software doesnıt and vice-versa.
>
Not that advanced does not mean crap. Of course there are some
features that xcas does not do currently (like solve with abs,
sqrt and inequalities or step-by-step), but that will be much
easier to Ŝx than it will be for formulae1 if you want to be
on
par with xcas features.
> Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder.
When it
> comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved,
Formulae 1
> is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there.
DeŜnitively
> worth $30.
>
I donıt contest it might be good for learning maths. I
contest your
denomination of advanced and pointed to xcas which has more
advanced
CAS features.
> Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima
which is also
> free and also runs on Zaurus. Now letıs see how powerful
xcas does
> against Maxima.
>
Yes, letıs compare with maxima. Maxima sure has some features
xcas
does not have, because itıs a 30 years old program. But it
has been
almost idle during 20 years, hence does not use any of the
advanced
algorithms found in CAS research during 20 years. For
example, maxima
uses lıHopital rules and series expansion only to solve
limit, you
can check the message board and see that it fails on some not
so
complicated exemples. Who will implement mrv? Did you have a
look
at maxima source code to see how bright the future of maxima
is?
> If our customers request such features, we will certainly
implement
> them. Thatıs for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease
of use
> and math learning to complicated systems when you have to
learn the
> system instead of learning math. We are going after the
general
> public and not the technical-lords ;)
>
Are you sure you are not offering a crippled CAS with an
emphasis
on some points of the highschool curriculum (in the US)?
====
>
>
> Wrong again. we have implemented limits on the previous
WinCE version
> but took it out of this \initial\ Zaurus/PocketPC release.
>
>
> I really wonder why you decided to remove the limit
instruction
> if you had it on wince. Is it a commercial decision to
propose
> buyers of the Ŝrst version another version and get some $?
This was already covered on a previous post. Check it out, I
wonıt
bother repeating it here.
Our policy is to provide free upgrades for minor version
numbers
(1.0.1, 1.2, 1.3) and only charge a small upgrade fee for
major
version numbers (2.0, 3.0, etc).
The decision had nothing to do with trying to rip off current
customers. Our next feature release (aside from bug Ŝxes) will
be in 4/5 months and it will be for a minor version.
>
>
> Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not
\advanced\)
> without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits
and then
> you went already to praise your own system. I wonıt bother
trashing
> your program but I am sure our software does a lot of
things your
> software doesnıt and vice-versa.
>
>
> Not that advanced does not mean crap. Of course there are
some
> features that xcas does not do currently (like solve with
abs,
> sqrt and inequalities or step-by-step), but that will be
much
Ease or not, every highschool textbook completely covers
solving
simple equations with sqrt, abs and sometimes even
inequalities
so we consider this a MUST have feature for high schools and
above. A solve without these is not a very complete solve.
The fact IS for me and you (CAS implementors) everything math
related is EASY to implement !!!
> easier to Ŝx than it will be for formulae1 if you want to
be on
> par with xcas features.
We are not competing with xcas. Our steps are phenomenal and
will
continue to get better and you simpy donıt have that
functionality
in xcas since you are not going after the same people we are.
> Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder.
When it
> comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved,
Formulae 1
> is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there.
\
DeŜnitively
> worth $30.
>
>
> I donıt contest it might be good for learning maths. I
contest your
> denomination of advanced and pointed to xcas which has more
advanced
> CAS features.
Not when it comes to step-by-step features. We are very
advanced here.
For example in Formulae 1 you can type :
int(1/(x-sqrt(x)),x) and press step to get
intVarSub(integral, u=sqrt(x)) which basically
says that this integral is solved by the substitution
u=sqrt(x). You can continue to press step to see all
of other techniques it used to solve this integrals.
You just donıt get that from any other CAS (with the
exception of Mathpert).
When learning integration, it is nice to see which
one of the taught integration techniques is used to
solve a particular integral; and that is what we
provide to users. Pretty advanced functionality,
if it was easy you would have already implemented
in xcas.
> Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima
which is also
> free and also runs on Zaurus. Now letıs see how powerful
xcas does
> against Maxima.
>
>
> Yes, letıs compare with maxima. Maxima sure has some
features xcas
> does not have, because itıs a 30 years old program. But it
has been
> almost idle during 20 years, hence does not use any of the
advanced
> algorithms found in CAS research during 20 years. For
example, maxima
> uses lıHopital rules and series expansion only to solve
limit, you
> can check the message board and see that it fails on some
not so
> complicated exemples. Who will implement mrv? Did you have
a look
> at maxima source code to see how bright the future of
maxima is?
This is not a comparison, this is just your excuse not to
compare
it when it comes to solving problems in one step. Why donıt
you
grab a copy of Websterıs Tests and see how xcas does against
Maxima and the other one-shot big CASs. Now thatıs a
comparison
of math capabilities. xcas implements mrv, maxima doesnıt.
What
about everything else Maxima implements that xcas doesnıt.
> If our customers request such features, we will certainly
implement
> them. Thatıs for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease
of use
> and math learning to complicated systems when you have to
learn the
> system instead of learning math. We are going after the
general
> public and not the technical-lords ;)
>
>
> Are you sure you are not offering a crippled CAS with an
emphasis
> on some points of the highschool curriculum (in the US)?
Cripped CAS ? You just admitted that your CAS is not able to
solve simple high school equations with abs and sqrt. Now
that is a cripped solve command.
Oh now our CAS is crippled because of the US curriculum. This
is getting pathetic. Math is math, we have more userıs of
the Zaurus version in Europe than in the US. and most of the
enthusiasm is from Europe. Notice that we left userıs comments
verbatim (non edited). Europeans are loving Formulae 1 too.