A102 1. Using the equation writer. This cost A LOT OF time and I always have to manually say go into algebraic mode and finally press the EVAL-Button. 2. Using the algebraic mode by pressing the '-Key. This ist fast, but not more comfortable then the equation-writer: First I have to press the '-Key, than type in my math. expression, press ENTER and EVAL. Not comfortable, too. 3. Using a algebraic-simulator. I've found 2 programme: algebraic calculator and calc III. the algebraic calculator is much to slow, and with calc III, I can not use ( or the equation-writer. Calc III has some bugs, too. So, anyone has a good suggestion how to use the HP48G as a calculator? My Ti30X (simple, cheap calculator) is easier to use. Joachim Get a HP49. There you've all possibilities to get rid of the shit. PS. I wonder what level has the Technical University Aachen if students like you are there immatriculated :-) 1A. Use the HP for a week, and you'll never go back to algebraic You don't need to type ENTER, just EVAL. That would be a bit like buying a top-of-the-line aircraft and installing a set of WWI-era controls to fly it. Then maybe that's what you should be using. Neill McKay Anything better than RPN? Yes, knowing how to use it ;-) -- Linux Registered User: 202 170 Kernel 2.4.1 http://xie121.infovia.xtec.es/~rblasco Un222os, hermanos linuxeros A high level!!! I'm affraid HP49 would be much more beyond his capabilities. First, he should try to learn how to use an abacus. I can guess: Business & Management faculty is pretty strong... ;-) Sorry I couldn't help myself :-) Once I learned RPN I forgot about using algebraic notation for entering data. I will never do it again - slow, ineficient, error-prone relic of stone era. (I love HP48G which I own for 4 years; I saw HP49G in store twice but couldn't decide to buy it - I still have mixed feelings about it...) Cheers, Piotr or any illegal or copyrighted postings. http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! To co ja ci radze, o ile posiadasz forcy. Najtaniey u CYNOX. Nie bediesz zalowac. Polish Notation (PN) was developed at the begin of the 20th century in Lw227w (Lemberg). At that time a famous Polish center of mathematics and logic. PN was not invented by Lukasiewicz alone but was a teamwork of several logicians, to handle axiomatic investigations in formal calculi of two- or many-valued logic. RPN, used in several programming languages (not only by HP) is simply the reversed or mirrored notation. It is totally simple and natural, easily understood by a 7 year old child not yet spoiled by the medievian bracket notation of arithmetical terms. Why then the bracket notation is still in use? The ansnwer is simple: Our brain, if not specially trained, doesn't like reading condensed information - in contrast to computers. It likes it to be thinned, similarly to our preference of thinned alcohol over some 98%-alcohol drinks, say :-) The bracket notation also goes slightly more conform with the way of speaking in most natural languages, although one can imagin other civilizations which use a bracket-free notation throughout. Pretty good! Where did you learn Polish? I've been thinking about extending RAM in my HP48G. But having 'flash' ROM would also be nice - that why I still cannot decide whether to stay with 48 or switch to 49. 49 seems to be more powerfull and much more featured/sophisticated. It is very frustrating that 49's built quality is so poor. [...] I think you are partailly right. I like 'algebraic' display. But, despite I'm a human, I much stronger prefer RPN for entering data. (However, I still prefer beer to 98% alcohol...) Well, my brain melted when I tried to use more than 5 levels of parenthesis. ;-) 'Algebraic' notation only looks 'cool' but for extensive number crunching is 'a pain in the ass'. Best regards, Piotr X-Authenticated-User: barryem or any illegal or copyrighted postings. illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! That's exactly what I meant. In the past HP was too good... The problem is that it is very difficult for me to downgrade my expectations now ;-) Piotr abuse@cwo.net.au 4. Learn to use Polish notation! It really is quite easy and natural once you get the hang of it - I always make mistakes and strugle when using a non RPN calculator now. The great thin about RPN on the 48 is you actually see the stack making it even easier to learn. Mark -------------------------------------------- Mark Richardson. m.richardson@utas.edu.au Member of SMASH (Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheist with a Sense of Humor) -------------------------------------------------- I think the build quality of the HP49G is at least as good as the HP48. I have dropped my HP49G twice on the floor, without it even stopping to calculate. Mine has probably been on for about 1600-2000 hours (got it when it was released), all keys are still pristine, the screen has no scratches, the serial port works fine, and nothing is wrong with it. Hm, that does not work. I hope I used in your code correctly - I typed in everything except the . When I press ALG and type in, for example, 5+8 ENTER, it says: Invalud Syntax :-( Joachim X-Authenticated-User: barryem or any illegal or copyrighted postings. illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! Appears to work OK on my 48G. Why anyone would want to do it is another matter entirely! Sean or any illegal or copyrighted postings. the size should be 109 and the checksum should be #C58Eh When you use the program, the two single-quote characters should already appear, and what you then type gets inserted *between* these two characters, automatically creating an algebraic expression like this: '5+8' If you left out the quote characters from the program string (or the number 2 in the list, which initially positions the cursor during INPUT), then this might not have worked for you. ----- Original message ----- The HP49 ALG mode simulator for the HP48 (junior edition) << -55 CF 28 MENU { '' 2 ALG V } IFERR INPUT THEN 0 MENU DROP2 ELSE 0 MENU Good luck (and try RPN some time, too!) http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! abuse@cwo.net.au Does anyone in the HP world know, or can give any indication on how long the HP48 models are going to be still made? I currently have both a HP48GX and HP49G with many programs for them. I find the HP48GX a more practical calculator for my line of work and am happy that this model is now stable although I will admit that the HP49G is a far superior calculator. Why am I asking do you say? Well I'm a bit concerned that HP decided to discontinue the HP42 models a year or so ago and would hope the HP48 doesn't suffer the same outcome as well in the short term. I hope the HP48 models still continues for at least the next 10 years. Noel Causerano Surveyor Australia the quality, RPN & named variables. I dislike the screen contrast & speed. I had to use a TI83+ for a statistics class and I am comfortable with it but every time I use it I feel like I am using a toy. Every time I use the HP48 I feel like I am using a ten-year-old computer. Is there light at the end of the tunnel? Are there faster ways to plot other than going through multiple menus? By the way, I currently use the TI83+ for class and the HP32SII for work. X-Authenticated-User: barryem or any illegal or copyrighted postings. illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) like & using a ten-year-old plot use http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! I have heard about communication between 48 and Psion 3 mx via IRDA. Can someone provide information about this? Which version of ROM is the latest for the HP48G(X) ?? What are the differences between ROM versions? Is it possible to upgrade? Best regards, Claus Futtrup Revision R, I believe. They're listed in the FAQ. http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/faq/ No. -- Nate Eldredge neldredge@hmc.edu or any illegal or copyrighted postings. I'm a newbie in 48G, so if anyone can explain me how to connect HP48G with PC via IR? I have IRDA adapter. The IR on the the '48 series is not IRDA compatible. X-Authenticated-User: barryem or any illegal or copyrighted postings. illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) notebooks (check google for their story). Apparantly this only works with certain computers, as many others report no success at all. You can experiment with different settings and report back with the results if you are successful in your attempt! Dennis with the HP, you need to disable IRDA support in the OS, and then use the IRDA port as a non-standard serial port, set the speed to 4800, and that should work to send and recieve, using any protocol. I have not tried this yet, but perhaps it is worth a try. Another alternative is to build/buy a serial to IR converter, I have the schematics for a rather complicated one that I found by searching GOOGLE with the search IR RS-232 Transceiver. I plan to build it, not for this application though, for another controll project. Cheers, Jon : I'm a newbie in 48G, so if anyone can explain me how to connect HP48G with : PC via IR? : I have IRDA adapter. -- --- - | | email:jmilley@engr.mun.ca |Never Say OOPS! | | ||| web:jmilley.dezines.com |always say... (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) I heard a rumor that the 48 is being discontinued. Can anyone in this group tell me if this is correct. If correct, when will this happen. Sorry if this is old news, I read old posts to try and get current. is it possible that my HP48G-calculator is untypical slow? For example, if I start programs like plot or time, it costs always about 1 second until the screen is completely drawed. Plotting the following function: - Type: function - metrics: Radiant - Equation:'1/X' - H-view -2 to 2 - V-View -10 to 10 - Autoscale: off in an empty picture (after pressing the erase-Button) takes about 12 seconds from the moment I press Draw until the busy-sign has gone. Seems to be too slow, not? Joachim on my GX with MetaKernel v.2.20 it takes between 8.5 and 9 seconds from pressing Draw til the busy annunciator disappear just my 0.02 Martin Joachim B232rger schrieb: I just did this and 12 seconds is about right. Forrest maybe something like PowerPlot or SpeedGraph could help. If you want a faster GUI then you could try UIStuff 1.0 All on hpcalc.org. Raymond I think your 12 seconds are OK. The program time for setting up the PICT environment. (EDITing functions etc.) You see it is not only drawing but also other work, which the small SATURN has to do. Nick [CapitalYAcute]‹–‡¿Œ Ž—™•–§‡ ‹–†š•’[ OH at][AAcute][OGrave]: I don`t think so. 48GX here, Revision R, no Metakernel (yet :-). The plot you specified takes about 12,5s (a cell phone chronometer is not so accurate, you have to trust me on this...). Clock frequency: 3,757MHz -- Zorz [Summer is here, this time for good :-) ] http://users.auth.gr/iilias which it can also be made to do faster. ;-) -- Aaron. And how? Nick btw, this takes 12.03 seconds (for 'sin(x)' stored in EQ) for me, according to TIM. Maybe you are using #2 RES ? Using this method takes 7.4 seconds. http://c51100-e.rchdsn1.tx.home.com/hp48/ppl134.zip or if you are feeling ambitious: http://c51100-e.rchdsn1.tx.home.com/hp48/ppf_03_beta.zip I don't know how the HP48's graphing utility works, but I'm guessing the reason for it being so slow is due to copious amounts of argument, error, and sanity checking. If you can spare the space in memory and you use graphing from time to time, you might want to check out one of the programs above. The second one is (as the filename suggests) a beta. -- Aaron. Yes, I used #2 RES. Nick What is this? What do the programs do? Joachim the links are the zipped files of Power Plot Light and Power Plot Full, software for quicker plotting than the built-in HP49-functions. Happy plotting, Nick for individual acknowledgement. I will try a software solution. I have not yet got a connection lead and have no idea what a userRPL is, so I have a lot to learn about the 48GX. I have been happy with my 41CV for the last 15 years, and had no idea that HP had made such advances in calculator technology. If anyone would like an HP41 printer (batteries completely u/s) and wand I will ship them to the first person who prepays carriage. I still occasionally use the card reader , although I had to make a new rubber wheel inside this as the original had become sticky through old age! HP 48 GX (rev R), includes -case -128 k HP card -1 meg HP card -2 serial cables -manuals (user's & programmers & sys RPL manuals) $100 respond to: bryanmonosmith@earthlink.net Flash ROM is incomparably more convenient than any RAM card. Backup HOME is trivial on the HP49, but needs a lot of manipulation on a HP48G with RAM cards (mechanical write protection etc). I cannot confirm your claim on poor quality. My 1 year old 49 has been buisy over 1200 (!) hours which would have cost more then 100 expensive batteries (I use Rayovac rechargeables instead). Keys operate smooth and relyable. The only traces of an intensive use are that the coloured imprints on the DonwArrow and Backspace keys are gone. If I would have reclaimed warranty in time, CYNOX might have given me another one. But then I had to separate from my baby at least 15 days. That's too much, so I kept it and I love it more than ever. X-Authenticated-User: barryem or any illegal or copyrighted postings. illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Barry http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! or any illegal or copyrighted postings. My backups are identical on my 48 or 49 (using simple programs); a port is a port is a port ... The Filer is nice, however (and is available for 48GX too!) Updating the ROM is actually the flashiest benefit (sayeth an owner of an HP48G, version M, forever condemned to remain frozen in its early 1993 infantile state :) http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! I mean a s a f e backup, protected against crashes (clearly a necessity for a SysRPL programmer). Maybe you've got a Ramcard delux whose write protection can be controlled via program. I've only a cheap Ramcard from CYNOX whose write protection can be activated or deactivated only by opening the HP48GX card box :-) IMHO, a Filer is not needed on the HP48. Or do you have a 48-Filer which not only reads the contents of a write- protected RAM card but outwits its write protection for data exchange? or any illegal or copyrighted postings. but erroneous purging and storing ;) I imagine that some people have managed to wipe out a high port, but does everyone remember Dave or Jim explaining how hard that would be to do on a 48? Of course, if you keep a port-to-port card copier program around, and accidentally execute it yourself... BTW, in Emu49, if you accidentally cause writing to port 2, then you can't undo it -- it's written into file rom.e49 -- but you can make that read-only on the computer, as opposed to being unable to make it read-only in the actual calculator. Wasn't there an MK (with a filer) for HP48? Why do we need it on a 49 but less so on a 48? Aside from the all-important CAS (with its EQW), and added details like hold/long/double... key assignments, what's the great difference between a 48 and a 49, and how does that impact needing/not needing a filer? I don't understand the argument; somehow I manage to treat my HP48 and 49 exactly the same (with virtually identical programs on them), including for making backups into high ports, and I have not heard exactly why it was any more impossible to unintentionally write into flash than to write into covered HP48 ports (but both impossibilities are reported by some people). I'd be happy to hear why the previously posted experiences of others were unrepresentative of reality, if they were. It even seems to me that flipping a card switch was extremely easy on a 48, and afforded a more absolute level of write protection there than a 49 can offer, since even UserRPL PURGE and STO can not be prevented from acting on port 2 in a 49, but can be prevented (by a proper RAM card) from acting on ports in a 48. Somehow I think that you have a different perspective, however, as we always seem to be on opposite sides of some kind of wall or curtain -- or maybe it's just the astrological difference between our time zones (especially as regards the planet Saturn :) http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! The things I love most about MK (apart from the stack replacement) are the Filer and the Matrixwriter (hate that it doesn't have a VEC toggle). Being a structural engineer I do not care a lot about the Equation Writer, nor about a CAS. To me it looks like all these people who are into the CAS are mathematics students? (or is structural engineering so easy compared to other fields? hmmm.....) Caspar -- That's amazing since 1200 hours / 8 hours a day = 150 days. Best regards, Claus Futtrup In a way, yes, since flash chips need a special pin to be activated with the appropriate voltage to allow write operations. The fact that erasing/reorganizing a bank is a slow process allows the user to find out when something goes wrong. I had such unexplained losses, but they weren't (in my case) subsequent to SysRPL crashes. I think they were caused by the bug that came with an early version of the HP49's system. With the latest ROM (at least), I never lost anything from any port other than port zero, despite a few crashes (provoked by me, needless to say, although I have some doubts about EDITG). It happened to me *several times* to lose the contents of a protected RAM card in port 1 of a HP48GX. hard, because it required a reboot. In my experience, the HP49's port 2 has been more reliable than a write-protected RAM card in port 0. David Haguenauer http://zap.to/hsimpson Looking for 128 ram card and/or 512 or 1meg for my hp48gx. Please contact me at this address. Rui (1-2Mb) cheeper than hp manifactured ones, they are really good product?!? And the double speed module whot is it? Can someone suggest a business contact,plz. Acrux sorry, i'm from italy I have bought RAM cards from http://www.dynatech.de/start.htm ,they are cheap, very good quality and the company is trustworthy IMHO. If you like the HP48 then stick with it - the changes made to turn it into the HP49 (squishy buttons, odd display, relocated enter key, no manuals) may drive you nuts. Roland I was under the impression that if one were to install Erable and alg48, then the hp48gx would do the same symbolic CAS functionality as the 49G. What would be missing? I am in the process of deciding between the two. Path: pubnews.netcom.net.uk!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.icl.net!sk y net.be!news.stealth.net!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au ! not-for-mail 08:17:34 EST) Unfortunately, the few you're talking about are probably the only who can run on a DOS based machine. And it will be REALLY slow. All the emulator I've seen running on DOS, require at least a Pentium 90. On a 80186 CPU running at 10Mhz, you're dreaming :) You made a terrible choice. I would buy a HP49 if I didn't already own a HP48GX. Why buy the HP48 now, I wonder? Your Eblish is excused. /Daniel -- Daniel Lidstr232m danli97 at ite.mh.se 62 23' 25 N 17 15' 31 E More straight-forward, better glare-free display, IR interface, plug-in cards, and if you don't need the CAS or long integers, you can save quite a few pennies when choosing for HP48GX Brgds, Fabrizio Your choice was fine. The 48 is a good calculator. Some people like it a lot better than the 49. -Scott I was under the impression that if one were to install Erable and alg48, then the hp48gx would do the same symbolic CAS functionality as the 49G. Is this not true? That way, you would have the hp48gx with CAS and symbolic or textbook screen display. Someone please correct this if it's wrong. On Fri, 11 May 2001 14:48:25 +0200, F a b r i z i o a I have no problem with the display, it seemed fine to me. The ir interface is useless, I haven't used it for a couple of years. It's only good if you have two HP48's (I did for awhile). Why do you need plug in cards? All the software you'll ever need is downloadable for free! The HP49 will be cheaper if you want a HP48 with the same amount of memory. Main reasons for buying a HP49: It is faster, and upgradeable! I wish I owned one. -- Daniel Lidstr232m danli97(at)ite.mh.se http://www.ite.mh.se/~danli97/ 62 23' 25 N 17 15' 31 E Install alg48, erable and eqstk and you're left with what? 5Kb of memory? I don't know if they fit at the same time. . . . Ok, I see that erable needs about 120Kb, so it is impossible to use with cheaper. -- http://www.ite.mh.se/~danli97/ And if you want JAZZ on the 48, the next RAM card is due. Not only that each RAM card slows down the operations on the 48, you have also to watch several different batteries :-) No question, the 49 is not only cheaper but (I hope that my friend Raymond Hellstern doesn't read this mail) also more powerful. I was going to get a 512KB memory card so I only have one installed. I find the 49g very difficult to read (my eyes don't work as well as when I was young). Also, I really hate the layout and the color of the 49g (I've used HP for years and love the way it was) so I guess I'm trying to make a 48GX (with extra 512KB) become a 49g. I may have to bite the bullet and just get the 49g and learn to live with it. I will feel like I have a TI with the 49g, though and I've been loyal to HP for 25 years. On Fri, 11 May 2001 21:24:49 +0200, Wolfgang Rautenberg choice. (Many might say the 49G would always be the right choice, but this is just my opinion). Although the ACO team is very talented and they have really done a good job, the 49G is not the breakthrough the 48 was by the time it was introduced. If only there was a version with HP's traditional color and keyboard layout... But I think they are not worried about us old timers... The 48S and 48SX were soon followed by the 48G, GX, and recently by the 48G+. When will there be a successor for the 49G? Gerson W. Barbosa I don't think so. If you dream of higher speed, then have a look at one of 'em German pages. They have something called SpeedUp MAX, which will double the speed of the HP48 ... I'm satisfied with my HP48GX (no need for speed or extra RAM, yet). When I heard that the HP49 has rubber buttons I felt disgusted. The feel of a HP48 is the way a top-class calculator should feel. The bastards didn't hire me after 3 attempts over the past 3 years so either I am useless or they are stupid (or both :). They are after the money now -- don't care about quality, so f__k their MBA crap mentality! I have the HP48G since 1994. I used it throughout college (engineering) and I still use it as universal remote control at home (and at werk :). It still looks like new. It's the best, most universal toy/tool I've ever ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yeah, well couldn't you have said that at the start? Up to that last sentence I was under the impression I DID have to read and be subjected to your rant. -- to know the difference with other HP models such as the 48g(x) or 48sx... Could anybody tell me what these major differences area and, most importantly, whethere it has an RPN input (and not a algebraic input). Roeland Read for yourself: http://www.hpmuseum.com/ All models with letter x are expandable, that's to say that you can add memory cards... HP48s(x) are 2MHz CPUs and not so user friendly interface, but very fast to use if youknow it well (it takes a little bit of time to learn, but it's fast to use...) HP48g(x) are 4MHz CPUs so they're supposed to be faster... sure they are faster to execute any program or to draw graphics, but the interface, much more user friendly is very slow... So, even if it's faster than the HP48s(x) models, it's not so much faster use... (stack display that is slow in both cases is faster on HP48g(x)...) memory: HP48gx and HP48g+ are 128KB ram, while HP48s(x) and HP48g are 32KB... the advantage is very important... expecially if you want to install a stacker (accelerates stack display...) RPN vs algebraic: All HP48 models works on RPN notation, but as you can type an equation in algrbraic mode and then execute it, you can also use algebraic mode... (but it's not a non HP calculator algebraic mode... it's not direct...) HP48s HP48g(+) vs HP48sx and HP48gx Cards are very expansive (especially those from HP...) so most of the users doesn't own some... and vs HP49? HP49 is faster (because every slow parts of the operating system had been re-developped), has more memory, is easier to use, and most of the new softwares are now developped on 49... HP49 doesn't have a bi-directionnar IR interface, but you need a cable (included in the box I heard...) HP49 is not faster than the HP48 for RPL and Assembly programs as the CPU is not faster... Hope this help! CDLC or any illegal or copyrighted postings. http://www.finseth.com/~fin/hpdata.html As far as I'm concerned, Craig Finseth's spec sheets ----------------------------------------------------------- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! The subject line says HP48s but the above line says HP42s or HP42sx. I remember something like an HP42 but a HP42sx I've never heard of. Is this a typo on the OP's part or are my neurons'fading? -- john R. Latala jrlatala@golden.net i try to use my HP48G as a display on my caldera linux system. my problem is, when i conncect my hp to my pc its not possible to see date on my pc-monitor. i made xmit test on my hp and saw nothing my pc where i made cat /dev/ttyS0 on my hp i have iopar {9600 0 0 1 3 0} and on my linux i have called stty -F /dev/ttyS0 -evenp -cstopb cread clocal -crtscts -inpck -inlcr -icrnl igncr ixon ixoff -iuclc -ocrnl -onlcr -onocr -onlret 9600 when i connect the hp48 to a windows-pc and hyperteminal 9600 8N0 everething works fine. with mldisp.lib and some programmig on hp48 i want to display information, which i want do grep over the serial-interface. so it must be possible to use the hp48 as a display for an linux-mp3-player. (i want use mp3-stereo) thomas 07:49:03 EST) Look at stty and set your serial line in RAW mode... is compatible with hp49 ? It is claimed to be, and contains includes and libs for HP-49. I didn't try it ... or any illegal or copyrighted postings. some parts of circuits in which they are living; I can't be positive that this is why my microwave oven went on strike recently, but it was the strangest thing -- although the wall power was on and the device clock and display were working fine, the darned thing just suddenly refused to turn on and cook (not even at zero power, which is really just a kitchen timer function), not even after unplugging from the wall for a while and then plugging back in. But suddenly, as if some evil in-dwelling spirit just decided to pack up and leave, it recovered spontaneously, and has ever since been giving faithful service! If you're desperate enough to try some more daring treatments, you might even go so far as to wash it out with dry-cleaning fluid (e.g. perchloroethylene), which is actually used to clean PC boards, at least where I used to work -- or ask Joe Horn for his famous shampoo recipe, and let us know whether any miracles take place, even this long after Easter :) Not kidding about Joe's recipe: http://groups.google.com/groups?ic=1&selm=713n41%24bcu%241%40nnrp1.dejanews. com Joe never did reveal the secret of what brand of shampoo he used, however (is he negotiating for TV sales of his miracle restorer?) ----------------------------------------------------------- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! Whoever told you that must have had a memory lapse. The 48 series, so we've been told, has some sort of internal circutry built in that prevents shorting out the battery terminals. This works great for the financial and scientific calcs, but on the graphing calculators it does no good. The only reason you would short the terminals on a calculator would be to discharge will accomplish this just fine. (Doing it with the batteries in cab cycle the bad energy through batteries and back into the unit.) Also, are you _SURE_ you said it was 48GX. Those can be sent into the service center no problem. Davy As mentioned in another post, this doesn't work on a 48. I have to agree with the previous person that this is not a good recommendation. Had a guy call in last month who inserted the batteries into his 17BII backwards and it was causing the unit to drain batteries within three days or less. I mean, if you're going to throw the unit out anyway I suppose there is no harm in giving it a try, but this falls into one of those last ditch effort ONLY fixes. Davy normal use. I have seen other models of HP calculators fail the same way. The ON key tends to be the first feature of an HP calculator to fail. I assume the contacts either wear out or corrode. I have seen other keys fail as well. Sincerely, Bob Corbett . Definitely a 48GX, unless HP have taken to mislabelling their calculators 8-). I am in Australia so maybe they don't repair them here - I'll given them another call to be sure. thanks simon 8-). That may be the issue and I should have qualified the statement appropriately. Here in the states we can swap them out through the repair center. The fact that we have different repair policies in different countries tends to be a bit annoying for us, and I'm sure more so for you. Davy My turn to qualify my answer. We do have a 'swap over' policy here in Australia as well, though not a repair your original unit and hand it back type of repair. Unfortunately the swap over option is just $6 short of the price of a new calculator, so its probably not a well patronised option. I have invested in the Reference manual as well for this unit, which has been very useful. If the swap over price was less than 50% of the original purchase price I might consider it, but as it stands, other alternatives are looking more attractive. Many years ago I purchased a HP150 deskjet, one of the earlier inkjet models. Three years later it died. We called HP and they sent someone out to fix it, which basically involved replacing the internals - no charge. Now that is service! I guess I am still not convinced that new features and whizz bang marketing are more important than reliability and service. simon Espically when you consider that it will probably cost you $6 to ship it to them. Our swap out fees tend to be slightly over 1/3rd the cost of a new one, so generally speaking its worth the cost. Sorry to hear its not as good of a deal for you in OZ. Abour four years ago when I was on Pavilion they did this for the PCs (but not the printers) and it was a really nice service. As I was leaving the Pavilion group about 2 1/2 years ago they were beginning to shy away from this, although I don't know what the policy is now. What ends up happening is that service like this ends up being built into the cost of the unit and, with the computer sales being so comptetive, often services like this get cut so that overhead can be reduced and cut down the end user purchase price. Really, its a double edged sword. On the one hand, the pampering services are nice to have but on the other hand, nobody wants to pay for them up front. But I digress..... Davy very provides Thanx for your reply... However I wonder if it's possible to buy another screen as a part from HP in the case I broke it (that's, in my mind, the more important question). That's only if it's possible to relocate it in its place, sure. Kickaha [...] I've never heard about anybody complaning about this but if changes have been made it is in the right direction... I submit you another one: instead of displaying a lot of uneeded parenthesis with negative numbers like -(2*x) could the display be changed to -2*x. It seems it's in the way EQW understands the object (cf tree representation as said in the manual) What do you think about this ? Vincent -- ----------------------------------------------- | Vincent Rubiolo | | 1st year student at the school of engineering | | Ecole des Mines de Nantes (France) | ----------------------------------------------- When try to update to Rom 1.19-5, got this messge: Error Invalid Bank, i go to download menu and try to format bank # 3 why this say invalid bank, and then got this error erase fail locked block, i format other bank's without problem,but bank # 3 got error Locked Block, the calculator is now without system, i can`t execute any command, calculator serial is CN10100115. I can format any Bank, but Bank # 3 not. Tank for your great help. I was thinking of recoursive functions on the HP49G and the following came into my mind: The definition 'f(x)=not f(x)' is possible on the HP49. But once the function 'f' is defined, it contradicts itself. If something is put on the stack and the soft key for 'f' is pressed then it will take an oo umount of time for the HP49G to give a result, because it tries to find not(f(x)), which is not(not(f(x))), which is not(not(not(f(x))))...... Now the question is: is this a hint that the HP49 reached such a complexity that the incompleteness theorem holds? Pr. Parisse? Happy head ache ;-) Nick Your post refer me to recursive programs. The function 'f(x)=not f(x)' is clearly recursive ('f(x)=f(x)+1' is also recursive). But I didn't manage to reach an infinite loop state in the 49 following your way. eval, you get 'x+3=not x+3'. If x=5 another eval return '8=0'. Can you be more specific? Recursivity is an elegant (but slow in the hp4x) way to solve some problems. Luckily we have it on hp4x, for experiment at least. Saludos Jorge M. Valenzani I was thinking of recoursive functions on the HP49G and the following came into my mind: Your post refer me to recursive programs. The function 'f(x)=not f(x)' is clearly recursive I'm sorry for the brilliant deduction and explanation. I miss the reading of your first phrase. By the way... Any recursivity implies a question to stop it. Then recursive functions MUST include some ift or ifte. If not you must make a program for them. Saludos Jorge M. Valenzani The definition f(x)=not f(x) is indeed recursive. But: Recursive definitions don't have to be programmed with a real world that in f. Just put the algebraic 'f(x)=not f(x)' on the stack and in variable f. Type now 2 ENTER and then the menu key for f, or something else and then the menu key for f. Your HP is not going to get out of the dilema. It is not important if f does calculations like the one you talked about. We just consider a generic function which gives the negation of itself. We use the recursive definition to construct a mathematical expression that says something about itself. It says I am NOT myself which is related to the incompletness theorem, if I did not completely forget my math lessons a couple of years ago ;-). Nick Definetely not. It needs a condition to stop only if it is intented to stop at some point. (To calculate Fibonacci numbers and the like.) But what this definition says is: I am NOT myself. We define it as 'f(x)=NOT f(x)' DEF. There is no mathematical reason for defining more than this, if we only consider something that says something about itself. So we could also do 'f(x)=f(x)^2-1' DEF or anything else. It is not a value of a function that we care for in this case, but the mathematical sentence 'f(x)=something' itself. Perhaps someone can explain it better ?? Nick Didn't saw yor point in the previous message. What you get after the DEF is a self-referencing PROGRAM (we call it recursive ;) It's not a Mathematical statement, it's just a PROGRAM Aren't you having unrealistic expectations of what this electronic system should be able to do? ;) If yes, then it isn't a defect (or bug) Saludos Jorge M.Valenzani I understand your point well enough. But it mixes two very different things. The calc can't undertand a mathematical concept definition in this way. It just get your definition, translate it and create a program that you can run. Then if your definition of the generic function is indeed recursive, the resulting program will be recursive also. A recursive program NEED the stop condition! It's critical. Without this, it never know when to stop and you have the result you saw in the 49. In the old HP28s you can even store 'x' in 'x' and get the same result. In the new models you have the Circular Reference error and can avoid this obvious mistake. But if we want to go further and eliminate the 'F(x)=not F(x)' problem we can end up with no recursive capabilities at all. The main point is: Mathematical sentences (definitions or else) and programs are different things and HP49 only understand the seconds. Of course may be you can make the 49 understand some mathematical sentences, but in that case you need to translate the sentence to the calculator language and not pre-suppose that it will understand yours. So, you mean that mathematical statements and programs don't have anything to do with each other? Should we run out of our homes, screaming: Turing was a cheater? I don't think so. But I will try to explain. First of all: All things that the HP49 returns, are returned because some programs run. Does this mean, that you can't do maths on the HP49? No! In fact you can do much more than the boring things like solving polynomials and the like. Maths is not only that. Second: A mathematical operation has by no means to only eat a value and return a value. Third: Let us consider a problem, that has to do with the incompleteness theorem. Consider a barber that only shaves those men of the village who don't shave themselves. The question is: Does he shave himself? If you think that this is not maths, then don't read further. But if you do, let's think about it. Let us first examine this in our language. If the barber shaves himself then he belongs to the set of men, who the barber doesn't shave. That means he doesn't shave himself. If he doesn't shave himself, then he belongs to the set of men, who the barber shaves. That means he shaves himself. This can be continued ad infinitum, without deciding if the sentence Barber shaves himself is TRUE or FALSE. We clearly see, that the system of a set: the men of the village and of axioms: Barber shaves only those who don't shave themselves contains a sentence: Barber shaves himself for which no decision can be made, if it is TRUE or FALSE. Now, G232del has proven (strictly mathematicaly), that this incompleteness applies to all mathematics!!! This is the incompleteness theorem. Let us try to translate our thoughts in the language of the HP49. That means *code* them in words that the HP49 understands. We can construct a function, which tells us if some man of the village shaves himself. This can be done considering the mapping: which simply tells: if someone shaves himself (argument 1), then he shaves himself (result 1) if someone doesn't shave himself (argument 0), then he doesn't shaves himself (result 0) The operation shaves himself can be DEFined as 'G(X)=X'. A very trivial definition, but it helps to understand. Type 'G(X)=X' DEF. The HP49 stores to do anything with functions? ;-) ) Now let us try to code the operation Barber shaves someone. Consider the mapping: which tells: if someone shaves himself (argument 1), then the barber does not shave him(result 0) if someone doesn't shave himself (argument 0), then the barber shaves him(result 1). This operation can be DEFined as: 'F(X)=NOT G(X)' (We could also DEFine it as 'F(X)=NOT X', but this DEFinition does not allow us to see, that the defined operation negates G.) Type 'F(X)=NOT G(X)' DEF The HP49 stores which is equivalent to: And now comes the twist. Is the defined function F perfect? No! Why! Because it does not consider the barber to be a special case. It handles him just like any other man. This is not the case, as we previously have shown. But consider now G(X), where X is the argument for the barber. Then G(X) tells us if someone shaves himself, that is if the barber shaves himself. Consider also F(X), where X is the argument for the barber. F then tells us if the barber shaves someone, that is if the barber shaves the barber. We see, that the two operations F and G in the case of the barber-argument tell us the same. (if the barber shaves himself case of the barber) That is why we must change 'F(X)=NOT G(X)' to 'F(X)=NOT F(X)' in the case, where we consider the barber himself. The evaluation of this F(X) is impossible, like it should be. (The HP49 repeats calling F ad infinitum, with the given argument X.) We could also constract a function F that takes two arguments: 1 or 0 on level 2 (1 if we consider the barber, 0 if we consider any other man) 1 or 0 on level 2 (1 if someone shaves himself, 0 if not) and the function would be: << from level 1, and returns if the barber shaves the coded who (1) or not (0) , or in the case of who=1 (the barber) continues ad infinitum trying to find if the barber shaves himself. As you see, the system HP49 allows more investigations than those that we talk about most of the time. Consider for example some definition like: 'F(a,b)=F(a,b)=(a*X^2-b)/(a*b)' definition of a...metamathematics ;-) ) No, I don't. I do not expect anything a priori. I study maths, try to code the HP49 and observe what it does. And in this case, it is a surprise to me, that such an easy definition leads to such consequences. Keep your eyes open, the wonders are in front of you :-) Nick I am not going to explain it again, since this is done in my last message. (So we save some space and band width ;-) ) But I tell you again: Math statements, can be *coded* as programs and if we are careful enough then we have a 1 to 1 relation between maths and coded programs. The programs can be thought as one kind of representation of the mathematical statements. The representation itself is not the important thing, but the logic behind it. Math is *not* x^2 and the like. This is only its representation, the language that we use in order to make it understandable with few words. Why are you so convinced that a recursive definition needs a break condition? Is it because the lack of this, would lead to something that never stops? So what? Who told you that some operation has to return something? Take the time, and think about it. Nick A break condition is a condition to allow a correct coherent answer (then to let the programm stops and then have a valid algorithm -said for finite states machines- according to A. Turing). Lets's consider again the problem of the barber who only shaves men who don't shave themselves and the question of saying if he does shave himself But every body know the question can be answer only when you don't consider the instance of the barber himself. So when we say only shaves men who... we mean and understand only shaves those men -exept him- who... Then, the under said words 'exept him' are our 'stop condition'. :-p Otherwhise, in this case, that is a program that never stops because about ending, no decision can be made, if it is TRUE or FALSE... But, I agree with you, no one ever say that some operation has to return something :) Gildas. (Sorry for jumping into this thread so late, I've been away from the ng for a while. But computability and computational complexity is one of my pet topics, so I couldn't resist. ;-) The answer depends on how you look at the computational device. In reality, all computers we can build right now can only be in a finite (albeit very large) number of memory states, and thus you can think of them as finite state machines. However, in theoretical computer science we usually look at abstract mathematical models of different classes of computational devices, some of which have no limit on the amount of memory they can use. In this theoretical sense, many if not most contemporary programmable calcs (yes, even TIs ;-) can be considered as universal computational devices, since, if they were allowed to use an arbitrary amount of memory (a la http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/humor/calcman.txt), they could emulate any Turing machine. Thus, in particular, you cannot decide the halting problem for those machines. The usefulness of such a theoretical point of view depends on how capable the real device actually is. With modern computers and programmable calcs, the machine can be in so many different states and computations can get so complex, that it's reasonable to look at them as if they were universal devices. (NB: It can be quite surprising how simple the design of a universal computer can get. Just look for single instruction computer with your favourite search engine.) As for the usefulness of recursive definitions, or programs in general, which do not always terminate: Some will say that such programs are no algorithms at all; but that depends on how you define the term algorithm. In fact there are some pretty useful algorithms which do *not* always terminate (and it's also undecidable whether they will terminate on a given input). One classical procedure which comes to my mind is Knuth-Bendix completion (yes, it's D.E. Knuth again :). This procedure can be used, e.g., to semi-decide whether a given equation holds in a given equational theory. It will *always* return true in a finite amount of time if the equation holds, but *may* run forever otherwise. (Of course, when using such an algorithm in practice, you will have to kill it before your computer turns to dust, and let it return failure.) I admit that this is a rather obscure example coming from computational logic, which is not the kind of stuff you will normally do on a programmable calc. :) Maybe someone else knows a more practical problem of this type? Cheers, Albert -- Dr. Albert Gr212f Dr.Graef@t-online.de, ag@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de http://www.musikwissenschaft.uni-mainz.de I will try to answer both messages in one. Please, if you want to keep the coherence of this dialogue don't put words in my mouth that I didn't said. What make you think that I mean that mathematical statements and programs don't have anything to do with each other? NOTHING TO DO??!! I own HP calculators since 1987. May I said that? No, and I didn't. I can see that you answer almost every post in the newsgroup, then you must have only a little time for each one, but please read them before answer. But mainly, before explain, try to understand. Ok... so what? Ok... and now? !!! ( original work? ;) ;) I didn't said that, never. ;) Long reading. Did you take my answer as an excuse for your explanation? It's clear that your enthusiasm with the idea blinds you. The HP will NOT repeat calling F ad infinitum. The insufficient memory error will pop up (the time elapsed depends on free mem). Is that the end of your fantasy? The 49' rpl just give you a little more time before the overflow that , say, CASIO's basic. That Nick is what I tried to explain to you in the main post. If you was surprised with the consequences was because you miss the fact that you will get the *SAME* result coding it in ANY program language and computer. You said: Now the question is: is this a hint that the HP49 reached such a complexity that the incompleteness theorem holds? Pr. Parisse? Of course the HP49 is very complex, but your example isn't. The error that you get is consequence of the recursive nature (please read this carefully! recursive or self-referencing) of the function you coded and the lack of care in it's coding (somebody said stop condition? ;). (then to finite And you answer: stop OK, OK but not HP49 (at least not at the level you try,may be a little more work? ;) Keep in mind finite states machines The other post said: Oh! what a coincidence! ;) It seems that you wasn't careful enough because your function ends in an error. I thought there goes his 1 to 1 relation ;) Not they hasn't, (I didn't said that neither), but they must not end in error conditions (lucky us that you don't code it in sys rpl) I never generalized my answer (as you pretend) to every operation. I was talking about your 'F(x)=not F(x)' example and in HP49. And that was what you ask. I always try to avoid plagiarism, but sometimes I feel the temptation ;) Saludos Jorge M. Valenzani I wish, more people would find this stuff irresistable :-( Yes, it is the theoretical possibility that arises in one's mind. This, taken together with the ease of the defining procedure for the HP49, leads me to the conclusion, that the designers/developers did an amazing job. It has its flaws here and there, but after all nothing human made is perfect. I think we should consider the knowledge gain. Such recursive defined programs may or may never end. But the most useful thing is, that we think about them. Sometimes we can then recognize the reason for some behavior. Even Gedanken-Experiments with absolutely no practical use, can be a real treasure for learning and exploring. (And blaiming each other, but that's part of the game ;-) ) Obscure examples may be the best examples for obscure matters. ;-) Greetings, Nick I did not mean the comment about Turing as an accusation, but as an example for argueing against the wide spread opinion, that maths is only x^2=2. I am glad that this was not also your opinion. The following comment, made me think, you mean it. If you don't mean this then: 1) I apologize 2) What else do you mean? Don't be that glad, I am older ;-) Oh, come on Jorge! there is at least a remaining 5% of all postings, that I did not answer. ;-) them before I certainly never read a question before I answer. This is the reason for giving programs and hints to people that need them. You know, in reality I guess from the title of the thread what people want, and through the influence of the holy ghost and the taste of my fingers, I come to an answer. ;-) So, much of our math knowledge is representable by programs. Now, you have something that eats anything and returns nothing. How poetical. ;-) No, he has stollen it from my grand pa, Nikolaos Mathematicosides ;-) What was then the the meaning of: This little word just is a little limiting, in my ears. No, I took my not so good knowlede in english as reason. I wanted to make something clear, which is very difficult to talk about, if one only talks without examples. Also I thought that I had to show, why this definition on the HP is related to the incompleteness theorem. May be. But I *have* enthousiasm. I reject any non entousiastical working. Yeap, it will. But this is not what I find interesting. The theoretical possibility and the simple definition is what I find interesting. (See also posting of Dr. Albert Graef in this thead. ) And this from you. Your previous comment: was a bit in the direction: Nick, the fantast. Now I am a person with limited fantasy. Taken together: I am a person with unrealistic expectations (which implies to much fantasy) at the end of his fantasy. Another G232del-weirdness? ;-) So let the darn thing overflow. This also shows that the HP correctly can't decide if the statement is true or not, because the statement can't be decided if it is true or not. So it fights until death... brave litle thing ;-) Hmmm, to tell you the truth I did't expect that on the HP49. I thought it was about to say What kind of definition is that, man?. So I was amazed to see that it simply ate it up without any comments. In other programming languages (at least the ones that I know of), it is also easy but not so simple to say something recoursively. Most of them evaluate the right side and assign some value to the left side. Would this work the same way as in the HP in, say, C? f(x)=not f(x) The only language that I know for sure, it does the same is Mathematica. Is there any other language that does the same out there? The carefully designed complexity allows some weird thinks to be easily coded on the HP. It doesn't always have to be a complex definition. I don't need a stopping condition, because the system that I wanted to translate (e.g. the barber and so on) does not have any stopping condition. Give us a better mathematical description of the system (barber etc.) that the HP understands. Take a look at the posting of Dr. Alfred Graef in this thread. Yes, isn't it? The logical/mathematical analysis of this examples also ends with a non deciding result. This is not an error. It is the correct result. The result is that no result can ever be achieved. That is what also the HP does. It achieves no result and dies (No free memory), asking you to stop the reason for dying. Again... brave thing ;-) Oh yes, you did: Didn't you mean it that way? The error condition must be achieved in this case, If the HP would return an answer for this problem, then I would rather believe that the thing is possessed. You said: Now you say you mean only this special example. Can both statements be true? I always try to avoid temptation, but sometimes I feel the plagiarism. ;-) Greetings, and keep on arguing. This is the best thing that we can do, after buying the HP49 ;-) The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck, is the day they start producing vacuum cleaners. -- This message was written entirely with recycled electrons Pivo LOL :-) As some of you probably know, the newer HP49[AHat]s which are made in China have a problem with the internal serial number. It displays as a bunch of [CapitalOSlash][AHat]s. Supposedly the number of calculators manufactured with this defect is small, however I just came across three that are this way (and none that are normal). If you are curious, two of them were bought at Office Depot in Houston and one was bought in Venezuela. Problem is, I distribute a program that uses the internal serial number as protection from fraudulent copying. My knowledge of HP49 programming does not go far beyond simple system RPL but I[AHat]m sure there could be a way to poke some sort of a code somewhere in the flash ROM and then have my program peek for the existence of this code in the calculator in which it is running. Certainly poking at random can only lead to disaster. Can someone please give me some help on doing this. P.S. Has anyone out there bought an HP49 with a CH external serial number that also has a proper internal serial number? If that happens to you, that are tryinog to protect software from being used by all users free of charge it isn't so bad. I think all software should be free. Have you paid for all the tools? I don't think so. FREE SOFTWARE GNU - GPL FOREVER -- Linux Registered User: 202 170 Kernel 2.4.1 http://xie121.infovia.xtec.es/~rblasco Un222os, hermanos linuxeros My friend: When a software of your creation will be used on an offshore oil rig that costs $4/sec to operate, and it can save them a couple of hours a day, then I'm sure you will want to be rewarded as well. Luis ===== by small, ------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at: http://MailAndNews.com Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser. ------------------------------------------------------------ What nonsense. Free software is not free at all- rather it is paid for by taxpayers who fund 'developers' at taxpayer-funded universities. So much for Free Software nonsense. If you don't like that a piece of software is commercially marketed, don't buy it. If you steal or copy it, I really hope you land in jail. But then, as a good leftist, you should be willing to pay that price with honor. jrc --------------------------------------------- Hey guys, I never intended this to become a big ideological can or worms. Can any of you just tell me if they have bought a made in China HP49G with a proper internal serial number? Luis ------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at: http://MailAndNews.com Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser. ------------------------------------------------------------ secure area for personal use. Finally the Boot Kernel has code inside, that allows the user to purge the complete Flash memory with the exception of the Boot Kernel itself. Christoph Giesselink As some of you probably know, the newer HP49's which are made in China have a problem with the internal serial number. It displays as a bunch of [CapitalOSlash]'s. Supposedly the number of calculators manufactured with this defect is small, however I just came across three that are this way (and none that are normal). If you are curious, two of them were bought at Office Depot in Houston and one was bought in Venezuela. Problem is, I distribute a program that uses the internal serial number as protection from fraudulent copying. My knowledge of HP49 programming does not go far beyond simple system RPL but I'm sure there could be a way to poke some sort of a code somewhere in the flash ROM and then have my program peek for the existence of this code in the calculator in which it is running. Certainly poking at random can only lead to disaster. Can someone please give me some help on doing this. P.S. Has anyone out there bought an HP49 with a CH external serial number that also has a proper internal serial number? operating system area there are names and even pictures of the development team, would it not be possible to overwrite some of that (one byte would probably suffice) with the understanding that if the operating system is ever upgraded it would be lost. Luis ------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at: http://MailAndNews.com Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser. ------------------------------------------------------------ would be lost. Luis small, ------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at: http://MailAndNews.com Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser. ------------------------------------------------------------ or any illegal or copyrighted postings. 2001 21:04:45 EST) Jim Donnelly's program is doing the same thing as the SERIAL command, except that SERIAL was not available on early ROM release... Can someone please tell me if they've come accross an HP49g with a CH external serial number which has a valid internal number. Luis I don't think you'll find one; last I checked HP didn't make calculators in Switzerland. ;-) Perhaps you meant CN? http://www.din.de/gremien/nas/nabd/iso3166ma/codlstp1/en_listp1.html -- Nate Eldredge neldredge@hmc.edu code (without the quotes) at the Level 1 of the stack. but I cannot link it to make an executable, how can I do that? thanx -- My mail server is limited to 2 megabytes of data; please do not send mails if their size is above 256 kilobytes. I may consider taking further actions if this is not respected. peterthefly@mail.ru schreef: Code objects are executable be careful with them though because a faulty object can cause a memory clear be sure to reset the RPL pointers upon exiting the code object -- This message was entirely written with recycled electrons Pivo code If it is displayed on the stack as: Code Then it is an executable ML program. David Haguenauer http://zap.to/hsimpson hi, how do I make my hp49 display actually have commas in it? lets say 23,345,378 rather than 23345378 and on page 10-3 (introductory to programming) of the user's guide paragraph 4 it shows, when you press the STO key in this example you get a sort of right pointing solid arrow, however I am not getting this but rather STO on the line which causes an error and I cant save it to a variable, how do I over come this? -- regards, Gary You can use the command FIX Before FIX __________________ 4: 3: 2: 123 1: 23345378 AFTER 2 FIX __________________ 4: 3: 2: 123.00 1: 23,345,378.00 Maybe you have the calc in RPN mode, and the paragraph is for ALGEBRAIC mode. P.S. Sorry, I can read english, but I can't write it :-& --- Alejo. o__ http://expansion.w3.to (_)(_) The FIX display works on real only, not integer... paragraph on mode. Is it possible to get an additional screen cover for the HP 49 and where can I buy one? can No, unfortunately HP does not sell them as replacement parts. :( -- Dr. Albert Gr212f Dr.Graef@t-online.de, ag@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de http://www.musikwissenschaft.uni-mainz.de or any illegal or copyrighted postings. Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Forecasting is difficult - in particular with respect to the future ... Brgds; Fabrizio X-Authenticated-User: barryem or any illegal or copyrighted postings. illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) I use NiMH in mine and charge them externallly. All the built in apps are considerably upgraded from the 95lx. Lotus is 2.4 instead of 2.2. Dos is 5.0 instead of 3.2. They got real serious about making this a dos machine and it's basically compatible with everything that doesn't need vga or a 386. There's a LOT of good old software that's gone public domain (or not) and people are using it regularly. Word Perfect and dBase and Paradox are used on it by a lot of people, for example. This is exactly like the 95lx on the outside. Same size and weight. Slightly bluer color. None of the Pocket PC or the Palm things will even come close to the power of this thing. It has better software for accessing the internet than any of the newer models. You can use powerful relational databases on it. In fact there's even a pretty nice SQL package for it called pbase. Unlike the PocketPC ones, it won't do multimedia stuff so it's not a machine that you can show off. Except to someone who has a Pocket PC machine or a Palm and is aware of it's limitations. Those guys are impressed when they see one of these. Barry memory and e.g. HP, http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! [remaining good review snipped] I wouldn't bother with the memory upgrade since flash cards are so large these days. Avoid the clock speed upgrade that is also available since it eats batteries like there's no tomorrow. -- Bruce Horrocks Hampshire England bh@granby.demon.co.uk X-Authenticated-User: barryem or any illegal or copyrighted postings. illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) web meg They so large since http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! I was just on www.hpcalc.org and he now has alot of new updates etc.... Welcome back hpcalc ;-) Have we lost www.hpcalc.org ? I know he was looking for new webspace. Has anyone heard what is going on? -- Micah It's still there -- could be a routing/DNS issue with your ISP. Has Ok nice to read it. Now could you tell us the correct IP address? ;) -- Linux Registered User: 202 170 Kernel 2.4.1 http://xie121.infovia.xtec.es/~rblasco Un222os, hermanos linuxeros ping www.hpcalc.org: 130.161.43.47 or any illegal or copyrighted postings. Ah, Iwondered why I got up to 300kB/s but the site is at the TUDelft also........ -- This message was written entirely with recycled electrons Pivo I trace the route to HPCALC.org from my computer and it reached a server in Delf, in the Nederlands. Using www.tracert.com as tool I am unable to find the site. I have experienced a similar problem with my site. It was a problem of DNS propagation. It took two days to my site be acessible from my provider, however it was acesssible from other providers. I have accessed HPcalc.org it at 15:44 h (my local time) and it was showing 2457622 visits at 15:45 it was showing 2457627, that probably means that the site and CGIs are working. CMarangon Carlos Marangon Civil Engineer Post-graduating in Safety Engineering) http://www.area48.com This is the site I'm getting connected to. I based in switzerland. Yes. I was surprised about that. But if I do a tracert I get: Tracing route to www.hpcalc.org [130.161.43.47] over a maximum of 30 hops: 15 75 ms 50 ms 49 ms BR3.Amsterdam.surf.net [193.148.15.34] 16 74 ms 46 ms 48 ms BR6.Amsterdam.surf.net [145.41.7.53] 17 71 ms 49 ms 44 ms BR7.Amsterdam.surf.net [145.41.7.46] 18 53 ms 59 ms 50 ms BR1.Delft.surf.net [145.41.7.38] 19 75 ms 52 ms 45 ms tudelft-router.Customer.surf.net [145.41.17.22] 20 73 ms 48 ms 47 ms dunet3.router.tudelft.nl [130.161.1.51] 21 77 ms 53 ms 50 ms www.hpcalc.org [130.161.43.47] Trace complete. Berni. showing CGIs says... Mail-Copies-To: never hpcalc has not been updated since April 22. I was wondering if this is only at the dutch mirror, or if this is also the case for the main server? - Carsten you can read on the 1st page : Unfortunately, due to the failure of the CPU fan, my primary hpcalc server went down on Saturday. I don't expect to have it up in the near future, so I apologize for any problems accessing the site, as well as a lack of updates. I like the term Saturday. It conveys no useful information at all about when he had the hardware problems. Too bad for all of us ungrateful users... www.hpcalc.org have a problem: no Unix tools. And I only use Unix systems, never have used Windows. I have seen that HP has released a development tool for Windows. Is it possible to have an equivalent for Unix? I am not talking about a windowing IDE with all the bells and whistles; simple a set of command-line utilities would be great. Borja. My understanding is that the dev kit is open-source, so it could be ported to Unix. Is it The GNU HP-tools are available for Unix. You can get them from http://www.hpcalc.org. it There are some tools. Concerning compilers, there are the GNU Tools (get the source from http://www.hpcalc.org ) -- however, they do not support all features of the HP49, and my kasm (http://k-asm.sourceforge.net ). There is also an emulator: look for Saturn on http://www.hpcalc.org . -- Eduardo M Kalinowski (ekalin@iname.com) http://move.to/hpkb http://cami-ufpr.hpg.com.br In the HP pages I have found a development kit for Windows, nothing for Unix :-( However, I have found kasm by Eduardo Kalinowski, and it compiles cleanly in FreeBSD. Hptalx also compiles with a pair of trivial hacks... Is there a sort of FAQ for Unix/HP calculator users? Borja. under FreeBSD. It compiles without problems. And, BTW, thank you very much for your work. Your tutorials are excellent indeed!!! Borja. I have found that the best tools you can use are (X)Emacs and GNU tools (the ones ported by JYA). Get yer hands on a RPL mode for emacs and voilla! Instant tool set! -Al Sure ;-) There is one caveat, however. I understand (beware, I am yet a complete novice, bought my HP49 last friday) that the GNU tools don't support all the features in the new RPL for the HP49, for example the arbitrary precision integers. Borja. I Is the and the HPTools v3.0.7 ??? 9d5bqv$daq$1@web1.cup.hp.com... or but Windows. And again, the HP Tools v3.0.x support all the new HP49 object (FlashPointer, integers etc...) If you want to create an integer: ZINT 123 for example complete Maybe I should precise. I'm always talking about the HPTools (the original one), NOT the GNU Tools (the hacked version of the HPTools v1.0) You can find the HPTools on my web site: http://www.epita.fr/~avenar_j/hp/39.html complete I've never released them yet.. Too lazy to update my web page. Also they only fix a small bug in MASD syntax www.epita.fr/~avenar_j/hp/39.html license, have of Where did you find an RPL mode for emacs? Can you give an URL please?? TIA, Albert -- Dr. Albert Gr212f Dr.Graef@t-online.de, ag@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de http://www.musikwissenschaft.uni-mainz.de tools dessins ou shemas sur mon ordi que je mettrais apr217s sur mon HP49. ou y'a t'il un autre logiciel de ce type. merci d'avance. Xnview (www.xnview.com) Tu dessines sur PC avec n'importe que logiciel puis tu convertis ce fichier au format GROB HP49 avec Xnview. XNview (www.xnview.com) can convert from many picture formats to HP48/49 GROB. XNview (www.xnview.com) peut convertir de nombreux formats d'image vers GROB. David Haguenauer http://zap.to/hsimpson Xnview est juste un viewer-convertisseur, utilise plut231t Cpicedit qui permet de creer puis convertir le grob, (sur hpcalc.org) AnsNum between two 48's uses up more batteries than using a wire (cable) connection? Which of the two is faster? 11:02:19 CDT) Yes, does. There's at least one document w/ power consumption measurements during different activities, you'll probably find it somewhere on www.hpcalc.org Wire goes up to 9600bd, IR is limited to 2400bd. Bye, Detlef Out of the box, wire transfer is faster. To get more information, go to www.hpcalc.com. (I mean visit it with your browser, not yourself ;-) ) There is a huge amount of information there, collected from all the users around the world over the years. Nick. that doesn't really mean anything with the HP48 because it can't handle a continuous stream at 9600 baud. Both kermit and xmodem protocols use packets that have to be acknowledged so there's quite a time gap between packets. the communications program i use displays the throughput while up or downloading when when downloading to the hp48 with kermit it starts off fast then keeps getting slower. In the two digit characters per second range (20 or 30). that's a far cry from the speed capability of either 9600 or 2400 baud. I'd be quite happy if the HP48 could download at a constant 2400 baud. -- john R. Latala jrlatala@golden.net envoronment for the HP49. The idea is, that when you want to execute a program that takes to long, and you don't have an armada of HP49s, then you could explode the code to pieces, store them in a list and let the calc execute the commands of the program one by one *and* check to see, if you press keys etc. In a schematic representation: SAVE_USERS_STACK LOOP TAKE_COMMAND_FROM_LIST EXECUTE IT SAVE_PROGRAMS_STACK IF USER_DID_SOMETHING THEN RESTORE_USERS_STACK EXECUTE_SOMETHING SAVE_USERS_STACK RESTORE_PROGRAMS_STACK END ENDLOOP But the problem is that the commands themselves can't be interrupted and continued later, i.e. if a command in the program, say an integration, takes to long, then you will be able to use the calc *after* the command finished. So does anybody know, if there is a way to tell the commands in the middle of their execution to stop doing something and resume later? Nick P.S. The induced craziness of this group takes new unexpected forms. %-& I think it's gonna be very interesting to study how the background __ Kamel, who thinks this a difficult task :) P.S. The MetaKernel group were thinking of adding a multitasking feature to the HP48.. check the MetKernel's docs! Well, a difficult task it is indeed, but it is nice to know that even with user RPL it is possible. It is the possibility that gots me fascinated, not the implementation of the possibility. Nick The HP49G had, I believe, multitasking capabilitites in ROM v1.05. This was taken out because of lack of room. aGSS6.1813$R84.412750@news010.worldonline.dk... was What a pity. Do you know how those multitasking capabilities could be used? Where they accesible for a user without any knowledge of programming in ML or SysRPL? Greetings Nick No. I don't think so. Oh well, I should have guessed this myself, but thanks anyway. Nick here : http://perso.atsat.com/pigallio/Hp48/Lil_hp48.htm how can i plot (or how do i get around): Y^2 + sinY = 2x^3 thanks You must either solve for one of the variables or represent the curve parametrically in order to graph it (except for conics). For your example, you can solve for x in terms of y, for all y satisfying except for a small open interval of y values just left of zero, fom y=0 down to about y = -0.8767. You could also use 'Truth' plot type: Try 'ABS(Y^2 + SIN(Y) - 2X^3 ) < 0.1' but will speed things up. This way, you'll go 4 times faster!) I know this does not give a very good result but in many cases this proves very helpful when you can't solve for either X or Y.. If you need better quality use resolution 1 PIXEL. Also, try to play around with the value 0.1 .. __ Kamel You haven't sought hard enough. Philippe Roussel, appeared in Datafile, Jan/Feb 2000 (V19N1). http://www.hpcc.org/datafilev19.html#V19N1 johil@tv3mail.com I've got the latest beta rom. I seem to remember being able to do indefinite integrals before I upgraded but now all I can do is definite (it makes me enter the end points). If anyone can explain how to do this I'd really appreciate it. Sincerely, jsj -- the sky is tired of being blue I'm supposing that you're in RPN mode and that your function is in the current variable (VX): Put the function you want to integrate on the stack (level 1) Execute the command INTVX e.g. 'X^2-SIN(X)' (VX is X) INTVX To use another variable, you can use RISCH: e.g. 'T^2-SIN(T)' (VX doesn't matter in this case) T RISCH It's as simple as that! __ Kamel, who's running ROM 1.19-5 beta How are you trying to do indefinite integrals, and what happens when you try? -- Nate Eldredge neldredge@hmc.edu Hallo, I tried it on HP49G and it fails, because the 2 in the list is interpreted as integer, while a real number is required. It would be nice, if INPUT (and may be some other commands) would exept both: integer and real on HP49G? (Compatibility and ease of use) regards Heiko or any illegal or copyrighted postings. with arbitrary-type number objects (e.g. consider the TYPE command itself, or VTYPE, POS, SAME, math operators, etc., and of course very different speed results with START, FOR, etc.) On the HP48, if this is how the program looks when displayed, the 1 and 4 can only be real numbers, and the answer can only be the real number 0.25 On the HP49, if this is how the program looks when displayed, the 1 and 4 are not real numbers, but are integers, and the result of the program (if flag -3 is clear) must be '1/4' (symbolic expression), not 0.25 (real number). an HP48 program or an HP49 program, and interpret it accordingly, so that it acts the way it was meant to act on its original source? The answer is: It can't. It's up to *you* to tell the HP49, in advance, which calculator model this program was written for or generated by, so that the HP49 can make the proper interpretation of decimal digit strings into the appropriate object type. Due to the fact that the ascii header line used for automatic program transfers in text form was not augmented to be completely automatic at the HP49 end, you must *manually* set the proper mode in the *receiving* calc *before* receiving any text program, unless that text program is completely free of any digit strings without decimal points attached. This chart attempts to concisely explain (view in constant-width font, not pretty font :) HP48 HP49 Sending realX realN realX realN integer (examples) 1.23 45 1.23 45. 67 Receive on 48 real real real real real (or 49 Approx) Receive on 49 real integer real real integer (Exact only) an HP48 program, sent as text to an HP49, without risk of changing the type of some originally real-valued numbers to exact integer type, the HP49 must be in Approximate mode. Likewise, to faithfully interpret an HP49 program, sent as text to another HP49, without risk of changing the type of some original exact integers to approximate real-type, the HP49 must be in Exact mode. Ay, there's the rub (Hamlet 3:1) http://web.uvic.ca/shakespeare/Library/SLTnoframes/literature/texts+1.html [speaking of alteration during translation :} When sending an HP49 program as text to an HP48, any exact integers will inevitably revert to real object type; other incompatible commands and syntax may also not be understood. The general automatic conversion of exact integer arguments to approximate real is localized to very particular argument dispatching functions, and occurs only when no distinction need ever be made between the types (also not when the arg is only a component of an expected list arg). If you're lucky, maybe INPUT is amenable to an easy adjustment, but in general you must know a user program's true origin, and tell the HP49 accordingly *before* transfer, to assure proper compilation and subsequent proper function. Sometimes you can get away with sloppy translation, perhaps paying only in additional execution time, but other times you can't, so watch your step! That's the whole issue; the extra new object types and their different *display* conventions on the HP49 vs. the HP48 generate the need to set the interpretation mode *before* compilation, since correction *after* compilation is inevitably less possible in many cases. The original HP48 program transfer system used a very complete special header line to tell the receiving calculator's text compiler *all* of the interpretation modes it had to use to properly interpret any programs that were conveyed in text form (so that the receiving calc never needed to be manually set). E.g. %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); The Translation mode specifies whether to output and then to display and then re-interpret angles in cylindrical/spherical coordinates, and the Fraction mark specifies what character represents the decimal point (which also determines the argument separator in algebraics). The HP49 added one more mode (Exact/Approximate), which it is very necessary for the compiler to know to make its proper interpretation, but there is *no* corresponding addition to the header line to specify it, which leaves you having to worry about setting it yourself, in the receiving HP49 (or before you manually type the program, which is equivalent). If any more letter options had been inserted *after* %%HP in this header line, then when the HP49 transmitted programs, any HP48 would have detected it as an error. Assuming that HP may not have wanted to make it impossible to transfer compatible HP49 user programs back to the HP48, that wouldn't have been a good idea. However, try copying this to a file and transferring it to your HP48 *or* HP49 using Kermit: Greetings! %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); Does the file transfer correctly to your calc, 48 or 49, without being at all disturbed by the word *before* %%HP ? If so, then that's where an HP49 could insert something special, to say automatically set yourself to Exact mode, which is what it should by default say for every file which it sends in ascii text form, since that is the mode which the receiving HP49 needs, to guarantee correct interpretation, as we saw above. A person editing manually, however, could then specify to use Approximate mode instead, if posting an HP48 program; alternatively, the mere presence of the %%HP header *without* any prefix could also be presumed to be a signal to interpret the text in Approximate mode, That would have been okay if done before the first units were commercially released, but now that your HP49 (and mine) still don't generate any prefix, this would make it difficult to adopt the above convention, which would then make direct transfers from *our* unupdated HP49s be treated just like output from an HP48, and thus be inappropriately compiled (stick a Microsoft label on it, however, and call the text language Java, and it would become okay :) Assuming that the above inserted word before %%HP did not affect the ability to download the file, we could still always take the liberty ourselves of inserting Exact or Approximate into our manually edited files, just to give folks a hint of what mode they need to set manually, and then this question need not come up again :) ----------------------------------------------------------- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! a very large text snipped. Sorry, John I need to work through your detailed mail. Hopefully I will understand. No, time up to Sunday. Many thanks. Best regards Heiko or any illegal or copyrighted postings. The above two conventions are clearly incompatible, so if any user program, when shown as text, contains numbers without decimal points, and if you are going to send or type the program into an HP49, you have to decide in advance which way to interpret it: The HP48 way (Approximate mode): All numbers, with or without decimal points, are interpreted as real number objects (type 0). The HP49 way (Exact mode): Numbers with decimal points are all approximate real (type 0); numbers without decimal points are all exact integers (type 28). Sometimes a program interpreted the wrong way works anyway, e.g. 2 MENU and 2. MENU both display the VAR menu. Other times, a program interpreted the wrong way won't work, e.g. { xx 2 } INPUT won't work unless 2 is changed to 2. If you set the HP49 to Approximate mode before sending it this program text, then the compiler interprets 2 as 2. anyway, which is what you should do in general before loading or typing HP48 user programs in text (ascii) form. If a numeric original command or function argument is *required* to be a real number, but an exact integer is supplied instead, saving you from worrying about the object type in many cases (or sparing you from needing to press the decimal point key). However, this service is offered only at the point where the *original* stack arguments are being checked for their types -- note here that a list { ... } is a valid type of argument for the INPUT command; therefore that's the end of argument type checking, and that's also the end of the amnesty, where some commands might tolerate a wrong original type of number as an individual argument. Therefore, nothing was wrong with the INPUT command; what was wrong was that a program displayed on (or for) an HP48, where some real numbers were shown without decimal points, was loaded into an HP49 in Exact mode, where numbers without decimal points were compiled into new object type 28, which is not valid inside the list supplied to the INPUT command. The needed correction is to set the proper HP49 mode before transfering ascii programs (or typing them): For HP48 program text: set Approximate mode before transfer. For HP49 program text: set Exact mode before transfer. If you forgot to set approximate mode (HP48 mode), you can correct the mistake after the fact: just set approximate mode now, then EDIT the program again -- even though you make no changes, numbers are re-interpreted when you press ENTER, and all the numbers become real (type 0) this time. If you forgot to set Exact mode (HP49 mode) and had typed the text in by hand, you may be able to change to Exact mode now and recover the saved original text from the shifted CMD function; otherwise you'll need to transmit the original text again. Hmm.. maybe this was not shorter -- but was it any clearer? ----------------------------------------------------------- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! John, thank you for the detailed work through. A lot of important hints. I understand, that if I need to type in a HP48G-program on the HP49G, it is recommanded to switch to approx-mode. Yes, but I expected that the INPUT command would accept the integer in the list, like + and - accept complex numbers. In the AUG it is clearly stated that a real is required. Great job, they have thougt about the problem. I tried it with my HP49G, it nice experience to see what happens, and to have the knowledge to avoid typing it (if posted correctly in the NG). Up to now I did not take care about the ascii convention when I have posted here (e.g. << instead of more correct <<). Ok, let us keep in mind that there is a new object in the HP49G, the integer and misuse could become a trap ;-) Best regards Heiko A very short passage snipped ;-) Wunderfull, completly clear. ...Heiko 18059 Rostock II ff KK KK Tel.: +49 381 498-3139 II ff KK KK Fax.: +49 381 498-3156 ___ mail: torsten.barenthin@mbst.uni-rostock.de /o.o --------------------------------------------------^^^-----^^^---- You can use the numeric solver and enter A but not x and then solve for u but there are also a few nice probability functions in menu 13.02 [math prob] and the one you want is UTPN store this in EQ and start the numeric solver mean: mean of normal distribution var: variance X: eps: precision UTPN gives you the integral of the gaussian distribution from -infinity to X EG after solving gives you x=1.95 the value of the 95% interval (0.95=1-2*eps) -- This message was written entirely with recycled electrons Pivo thanks, Roman Roman Hartmann escribi227: [...] Have you tried an EVAL before solving? That iINDER or ~xIREMAINDER (I found these commands via RPLCPL) MASD cannot recompile them. I have heard about bugs in masd, but I haven't heard about fixes being made to it. Is masd updated with a new ROM release? To the point: I am looking for either a compileable SysRPL command that can give me the remainder of a division, or a more size concious workaround than: :: ... @work here IREMAINDER ... @work here ; This is much larger than the single command is supposed to be. Any help would be appreciated. -John Mart II (I To use IREMAINDER in MASD, you should only put xIREMAINDER, but this doesn't work to every command, so you have to call the command by it's ROMPTR. Instead of xIREMAINDER you have to write ROMPTR 314 2B. You can get this number by using Nosy. Bye! -- Beto doesn't Why shouldn't xCOMMAND work with every UserRPL structure? this Why not decompile IREMAINDER, to get: :: CK2&Dispatch SYMSYM :: FPTR2 ^STEPIDIV2 SWAPDROP ; BINT17 :: FPTR 7 19C FPTR2 ^STEPIDIV2 SWAPDROP ; ; @ I would opt for the FPTR2 ^STEPIDIV2 command (how it works should be obvious, as should its connection with the UserRPL words IREMAINDER & IDIV2). this It works! However I am still at a loss as to how you got this romptr because on my calc if I use EDOB on xIREMAINDER I get ERROR ??? I am trying this from within Emacs. Just for comparison purposes my MASD version is 5.10 I get the same error when I try to decompile xIDIV2.... :( However thanks for your help. It worked. -John Mart II Since FPTR2 ^STEPIDIV2 appears to take only integers as arguments, when using this command I have to run FPTR 7 19C which appears to check if two numbers are integers and convert them to integers if they are not I'm not sure about this. Then after running FPTR2 ^STEPIDIV2 I must dia CR2016 This is the 3-volt lithium button cell battery used by the HP48's RAM cards tot it works. Anyone use this command? What's the right sintax? set clearchannel off set protocol xmodem {} {} {sx -k %s} {sx -k %s} {rx %s} {rx %s} Then you can use the C-Kermit commands send and recieve: ... and on the calc: 'NAME' XRECV For some reason I don't know it's got about 10s delay before the transmission starts, but then it's quite fast (around 850B/s). HTH Thomas only question is if there's a way to just put the calc in xserver mode and send the file (like xmodem in windoz) without typing 'NAME' XRECV. No, the server is AFAIK a xmodem-extension by HP and there's no support for it under Linux.