A103 SED48/49 v1.2 has been updated at http://home.hccnet.nl/c.lugtmeier/index2.html and on www.hpcalc.org (a bit later). It now includes an AISC W shapes database and a pdf manual. Caspar Lugtmeier -- ==== MCAP v1.0 has been released at http://home.hccnet.nl/c.lugtmeier/index2.html and on www.hpcalc.org (a bit later). MCAP is a Structural Engineering application and can be used to calculate ULS and SLS states for a concrete section. MNkappa diagrams can also be calculated. The concrete section can be rectangular, T, I shaped etc. It can be made of multiple rectangular sections. Rebar and prestressing (both multiple layers) can be included. The stress-strain relationships of the used materials can be adapted to suit your needs/national code. See the manual for details. -- <76ea4fd3.0112171237.77405159@posting.google.com> <12826659.0112180228.20ea816e@posting.google.com> <76ea4fd3.0112180948.33daf762@posting.google.com> ==== WakeUp is slightly exaggerated; the calc is executing the code in DeepSleep (an ML loop in which the CPU is Ŝnally stopped until an interrupt occurs), and it never exits from that loop! All that happens is that the clock TICKS are updated and TIMER2 is reset to count down for another 72 hours (or until some genuine *programmed* Alarm comes along), and the display is never even turned back on, so donıt sit up all night looking for something to happen! At best, if you place the calc very close to an AM radioıs ferrite antenna rod (with the radio not on any station) and turn up the volume, you might hear a very tiny bip of static on that radio, during the few dozen (few hundred?) microseconds that the CPU takes to return to the same point in the DeepSleep loop. This, of course, has nothing to do with Pekıs original problem (calc actually warmstarting when opened -- whatever that means :) The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated! [Mark Twain] Aliceıs Restaurant [a song by Arlo Guthrie]: http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/parton/2/alice.html (Start at RECITATION section) ... it was about four or Ŝve hours later that Alice -- (remember Alice? This is a song about Alice!) ... [r->] [OFF] -- go back to DeepSleep mode, and stay there! ==== Sectn49 v1.2 has been updated at http://home.hccnet.nl/c.lugtmeier/index2.html and on www.hpcalc.org (a bit later) because of a minor bug in the HP49 version (wizard problem). Caspar Lugtmeier -- ==== I think I found a new bug in Flash 1.19-6. To reproduce it: enter this expression: (ABS(H))^(1/2)/(H*e^(H^2+2*X*H+2*X^2)) then enter EQW, and press: LS 4 B (LIMIT) B (lim) and enter H=0 press ENTER to put the limit on the stack, then RS P (EVAL). The machine (and the emulator) running 1.19-6 both restart. The limit is undeŜned (+inf for 0+ and -inf for 0-) according to MuPAD. ==== i cannot get mine to restart but i get the error: Œnon algebraic in expressionı and then the stack is erased. i can get the hole stack back using Œundoı. 1.19-6 ==== expressionı Idem the stack is erased and the content in cut©&paste is clear ... ==== Iıve the count-down program CD below in STARTOFF. It prevents a turn-off if programming or surŜng in the ROM which may last several hours. Outside edit mode it starts a 10 sec count-down after 50 seconds and turns off if the count-down if not interrupted by a key. If executing CD directly, it runs exactly as I described with the little count-down number in the Header erased, also if switching ON after a turn-off from CD. However, if CD is executed by STARTUP, the last count-down number remains in the Header and can be eliminated only by some additional CANCEL press. IMHO, STARTOFF should execute exactly what it is told to. Any idea how to Ŝx the bug? Program CD: :: xMEM (Collects garbage and puts a real to stack) EditLExists? caseDROP (In edit mode do nothing else) 10 ZERO_DO (Otherwise start a 10 sec count-down) DROP 98 1 ISTOP-INDEX #1- #>$ $>grob XYGROBDISP (Display count-down number in Header) %1 dowait GETTOUCH :: NOTcaseTRUE (If no key is touched put TRUE to stack) ZEROISSTOPSTO (else leave the loop) DROPFALSE (but Ŝrst drop and put FALSE to stack) ; LOOP IT TurnOff ; ==== If I understand correctly, the screen is not refreshed once your program has been run. Have you tried playing with the display status ŝag ? TurnOff change them for example ==== Because this is a very good example and because it is related to trigonometry, Iıll take that in a future part of the trigonometry marathon, showing that the commands for trigonometric covertions like TRIG and the like, can also be used to make it possible to solve problems, which the HP49G canıt solve right out of the box. ==== I got my IC35 three days ago. (The 32MB MMC card will be coming in a few days;-) First view: Wow! First touch: Very handy; Rubber keyboard... First usage: Now this is easy to use! The display could have somewhat more contrast, and the keys are softer and their hit force is less than on the 49G. But since the keys are very small, chances are good to hit target;-) These both are the only points of criticism on this machine. Otherwise itıs really nice. It has all the needed organizer software built-in. The Œgraphicalı user interface is well built. Of course you can download applications and games;-) Synchronizing with Outlook2K is very easy, transferring data to another IC35 (we have two of them) works w/o any conŜguration mess. And connecting Siemens mobile phones is just plug and play. You can use the IC35 as a remote control for those phones, and the WAP browser letıs you see much more than on the phones small display. The device is very handy, itıs smaller than my HP-15C, so I can carry it in my shirt pocket, if need arises with my 15C, too;-) It uses a ŝash ROM, so of course, you can upgrade it. But I have not found any bug so far. It simply works! It uses a Z80 (A?) processor. I donıt know the CPU speed, but itıs sufŜcient for most things. There are some games that run really fast. And, you get the SDK for free. Itıs an extension to MS VC6++ and comes with an emulator. Maybe I should build a small RPN calc for the IC35... So far, I really like this little machine. Itıs not a replacement for a real calculator like the HP-15C, but itıs great organizing tool. ==== Possible sources for printed 48G[X] AUR manual (and Donnellyıs Handbook, etc.): http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B8B25E1.4B735CEF% 40miu.edu http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C0F24FC.B7804C5D% 40miu.edu http://www.addall.com Evidently HP gave its permission to scan the 48G Userıs Guide; might they possibly do so for the 48G AUR as well? I updated the 49 (from 1.19.6). Now VER reports 30 aug Œ01. Is that right? I read again the download instructions, and I think I didnıt hit the Download Pack button, after download, but the 49 works. It that a problem? Does anybody know exactly whatıs the purpose of that? ==== Mine reports 4.2001083; before it reported 4.20010912. The vger.ŝash Ŝle is the one last modiŜed 01/04/02 10:03 from ftp://fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/pub/hp48/. I donıt know what to make of this. I donıt know, but Iım sure that I did press it. James ==== It has last CAS update, and it uses a preliminary source code for ROM 1.19-6, probably revision 10.. Thatıs the reason because EXP() feature doesnıt work with it. J.Manrique CdU de la ETSIG ==== So, to sum up: 1) the vger.ŝash is an OLDER version of 1.19.6 2) it does not contain a mysterious bug called 7^x^2 solve (????) 3) it does not contain some mysterious features, including something related to the EXP function. any more details (please)? for example, what else will I miss keeping vger.ŝash instead of the 1.19.6? -- The set of solutions is never empty. Two solutions together form a new problem. -- Mycroft Holmes Ŝle is this. ==== Exactly. I had 1.19-6 rev10 and it hasnıt goe exp() prettyprint feature included in Ŝnal 1.19-6 Itıs not a mysterious.. it was posted here, and itıs in bugs list in hpcalc. I tried in the emulator and it crash the calc, just 7^x^2 x SOLVE crash 1.19-6 calculators.. youıll get try to recover memory.. Do you have 1.19-6 ROM in your calc? When you use EXP() function itıs show as e^ (pretty way) in 1.19-6 Ŝnal ROM. There have been some 1.19-6 previous ROM, just left to some betatesters, that didnıt have it, because it was added in the last one, the Ŝnal ROM, and B.Parisse doesnıt have the source from that one, so, he updated the CAS in one 1.19-6 previous ROM. Ok, I am sure not being the best person to explain this, but I post what I know. Sure, that Jean Yves Avenard or B.Parisse could explain it much better than me.. As fas as I know, only that exp() feature.. You have to choose: -Last updated CAS -Last updated pretty-print J.Manrique CdU de la ETSIG ==== thanks for the explanation! itıs clear now. -- The set of solutions is never empty. Two solutions together form a new problem. -- Mycroft Holmes ==== I found the description of the FREQUENCIES command in my GX manual but no where did it tell me what the command variation was. I went through the index looking under the STATISTICS, and FREQ and a slew of other keywords but didnıt Ŝnd it. BINS? I guess I should have guessed that since the description of the FRQUENCIES command talks about putting things into Œbinsı ... sigh. Thnx. -- john R. Latala jrlatala@golden.net 17:52:01 -0600) ==== Listed on page G-6 of the GX userıs manual; described fully only in the optional HP AUR book (get one before they go extinct!) Donnellyıs HP48 Handbook (2nd Edition) is excellent for listing all GX commands by functional groups in its Command Index section (e.g. BINS is under STATISTICS), which HP itself has never been thoughtful enough to do. The calculator itself, however, lists all commands by functional groups, in its own command menu structure: In 48GX: Left-shift STAT 1VAR: TOT MEAN SDEV MAXGS MINGS BINS In 49G: 96 MENU 1VAR: TOT MEAN SDEV MAXGS MINGS BINS For the 49G, it may be just a bit too late to add such things to ROM, but note how in the 49G, right-shift-hold TIME goes to the same command menu (menu 94) as does left-shift TIME on the 48GX, so how about similarly assigning 96 MENU (with TakeOver) to right-shift-hold STAT on the 49G, going to the same command menu as left-shift STAT on the 48GX? Without special key assignments, the following command menus, all reachable via left-shifted digit keys on the 48GX, are generally unreachable except via commands or custom menus on the 49G: SOLVE 74 MENU PLOT 81 MENU SYMBOLIC 93 MENU TIME 94 MENU [right+hold TIME or right TIME TOOLS on 49G] STAT 96 MENU UNITS 59 MENU [right UNITS TOOLS on 49G] I/O 104 MENU LIBRARY 110 MENU EQLIB 113 MENU [MES, COLIB, UTILS (DARCY, rpm, dB, TINC ...)] [r->] [OFF] ==== Now I know the right syntax. a + ib = << a b R->C>> You have to use the function real to complex!! 18:07:22 -0600) ==== Complex numbers or complex symbolic expressions like (a,b) or (a;b) [the separator character depending on the fraction mark ŝag -51] can be included in algebraic expressions quoted with the [Œ] character. E.g. << Œ(a,b)ı ŒALOG((a,b))^2ı >> etc. The complex number object type -- e.g. (3,4) -- supports only real-valued components; symbolic components *must* always be embedded instead into a quoted algebraic expression like Œ(a,b)ı [r->] [OFF] ==== mean by weird things? It is hard to explain this in words. If you could explain me how can such things be done with M$ ofŜce I would be really grateful. Absolutely no sarcasm! Things that are better donıt always win over things that are not so good. Quite the contrary can said to be true on better than Dolby S and many too many other cases. Using such arguments, like if they were better, then why didnıt they win?, could bring us such questions like If democracy is so much better than fanatically tormenting humans all over the world, then why donıt the good guys win? On the best way. It is not very helpful to talk about what would have beens. But partially I must admit that you are right, in the sence that Apple tried to be so dictatoric in the past, not allowing anybody else to build Macs, or compatibles. But they paif the Bill (Gates ;-) ) already. Are you sure? I have 4 macs and never had any problems with not existing hardware for them. In addition, the hardware available is (was?) top quality and not the cheap tricks sold on every second class shop. Iıll never forget ALDI (shops selling mainly foods in Germany) selling also PCs. The worst possible quality, let aside supporting. Greetings, Nick. ==== Send them to me i will see if i can help. I admit that better things donıt always win. But in case of MS vs Apple,i think that Windows is better for the average user than Mac OS.Just an example,do you know what a pain it was to install an application on previous version of Mac OS ? When it has always been very easy on Windows. What is so impressive about MS is that since the beginning,they have targeted the no professionnal computer market and litteraly created this market. Moreover they are marketing genius. These are some of the things which have lacked to their competitors for a long time and which have resulted to the actual situation. I strongly believe that if Apple and other competitors could have easily stopped MS before the release of Windows 95.But they have done nothing and they have paid for that. No,what i wanted to say is that you can buy only Mac Computers from Apple and that the choice of hardware is very limited compared to PC. It is true however that Mac have generally better quality and recently design look than PC. If Apple had the attitude,it has now then perhaps MS wouldıt have the close to complete Monopoly it has now over personal computers. ==== Yes, but this is integral, *intentional*, design for Windows =) It wouldnıt be Windows without a philosophy of surprise focus changes, so you typing suddenly becomes you saying Yes, I want to accept the charges. and if youıre not careful you wonıt even notice it. Look at MSN Explorer: it wouldnıt be *right* if the program didnıt put every window that changes state on top of the window stack, so you can see what you expected and donıt yet care about in the middle of reading something. Of course, other misguided GUI systems have emulated this design... ==== If Jacek is being imprecise in using the word ŒCrashı, itıs possible that an X program is wedging X -- then the OS is still quite Ŝne, and the system is still running Ŝne, but the person at the terminal canıt do anything. Iıve had this happen, with colorful effects, and almost-worse becomes unintelligible. Hee =) Youıd think that it must be! Oh, I should mention that in my other post, I was being very free with my interpretion of Œexpensive mainframesı. I assume that Jacek is unfamiliar with them, and managed to deŜne them as Other Than PC Or Mac. This seems to be a staple of modern computer-related-techology businesses. Itıs very wierd... my theory is that all the politics and moves of the computer world is orchestrated by Powerful Anarchist Hackers, who are trying to speed up idiocy to its certain collapse =) (Have you *seen* some of the technology patents that are out there? The Patent OfŜce is trying to make itself irrelevant.) ==== OK, I understand now: You are COMPLETELY IGNORING the existence of Unix, or possibly anything other than Microsoft and Apple. ==== 1. He described MacOSX vs. MacOS tasking systems 2. You decided that this meant MacOS wouldnıt run on MacOSX 3. He corrected you. 4. You decide that this means Sun Unix programs obviously require more than a simple recompile, and then become barely intelligible. Youıre a troll, right? The options you give canıt be exclusive, because they have nothing to do with each other... but Iıd probably consider such a creature to be Windows, given Microsoftıs habits. Thatıs both wrong and, giving a little by the popular domain of Unix, absolutely irrelevant. You just said that such admitted technical defeat, as in the case of MacOSX and its Unix kernel. ==== As fast as? Iıve never seen a an X server or X window manager that wasnıt faster by far, even when I compared a busy P130 with 16MB RAM with a just-writing-to-a-bloody-ŝoppy P2 700 with 64MB or more RAM. The difference here is drastic: Windows ME, for instance, is unusable. Thereıs still a good bit of difference when Iım multitasking: In FVWM a number of key combinations change which part of a multi-screen desktop Iım looking at, so I rapidly switch between IRC, the web, multiple connections, and multiple tasks. If Iım compiling the world and reading usenet and running various monitor programs, I *never* get the oft-experienced Windows(tm) feeling that the computer is lost in itself, twiddling its thumbs. Anyway, on the 16MB RAM machine just described, older versions of the Enlightenment window manager would be slower than Windows on the same machine. Your ergonomic claim is amusing, but Iıll be active-minded: could you please describe how a particular version of windows is more ergonomic than a particular X window manager, and what you mean by that word? (and how could windows *ever* possibly be more ergonomic than X, which is totally and powerfully ŝexible? If something bothers me, I change it.) People like what? ==== How exactly do you deŜne a crash? Failure to respond? A reboot? Œlsı giving core dumps? Inability to kill a process thatıs taking up almost all of the CPU? Not always. I canıt give the steps to reproduce, but believe me, Iıve encountered this. I agree with you here. Still, forgetting to unmount a remote mount can mess up NFS pretty badly, and I believe that that is something that is an OS bug, and one that should be corrected. What sorts of damage? What do you mean by crash most ungracefully? Iım not trying to defend or criticize any particular OS here, because they all have their faults. Bhuvanesh. ==== Well said Jack ;-) ==== Windows is simply more ergonomic because its use is convenient for more people than competitorıs thus there is less need for customability.However Windows is customable enough. And how can you use windows ME for any real comparaison when it is by far the worse Windows ever designed ? Use Windows 98 SE or Windows 2000 for more fair comparaison. And on the same computer:533 Mhz K6-2 and 128 MB of RAM,Windows 98 was windows as possible(X windows sucks !),then i have concluded that Like you and some others. And i begin to be tired to discuss with people like you and Larry Smith. ==== That may be so, but itıs caused by some application sucking up all available free memory. If the OS didnıt drop a panic message on your screen then it is still running and still doing the best it can with a misbehaving application. Perhaps so, but if the OS didnıt panic then it is the application that is forcing the reboot, not the OS. No, the system is not okay. Itıs wedged very Ŝrmly. Any attempt to contact the machine, even via network, requires spawning another process. If you donıt have any physical memory or any swap available the OS can only shrug and go back to whatever it was doing. Itıs not an OS problem, itıs yours for running heavyweight apps in modes that allow that kind of wedging. Unices have quotas for a reason, use Œem! Wrong. You are blaming Ford for the fact that an Explorer canıt be driven on a ŝat. It didnıt crash if you didnıt get a panic. How? Firstly, itıs not crashed. Secondly, which application is offending? The one running 80 megs or the one running 20? And secondly, WHAT user? Unix doesnıt assume itıs got a warm body sitting there baby-sitting it. Often most of the apps running are still doing what they are supposed to be doing, even if the machine is unresponsive to efforts to start a new shell. You want to shut down the air-trafŜc control system because you canıt get the system to open a new shell? Chances are the ATCs are still looking at live screens. In truth, damage control is a situation-sensitive issue. If you are going to insist on running large, leaky apps, then set up a daemon with privs to kill the bastard when page faults go above a certain level or available memory drops below some minimum buffer. Sigh. Oh, yes, thatıs a big help. -- .-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-. | Wild Open Source Inc. | |__ / | | |-< | |-< > / | Making the bazaar just a `----ı`-^-ı`-ı`-ı`-ı`-ı `-ı | little more commonplace. home: www.smith-house.org | work: www.wildopensource.com ==== A crash means the same to the OS as it does to any app: it executed a bad instruction and is no longer able to run. In unices that trips the panic handler. The others are symptoms of a system having problems but not the OS. Frankly, I donıt think so. NFS is not part of the OS. Itıs a daemon. Damage to the registry being most common, other sorts of damage that can prevent booting or force booting in safe mode. Anything that requires re-installing the OS to Ŝx the problem. In my experience about 1 in 8 Windows crashes require re-installing the OS. I have never, ever, had to re-install Unix. -- .-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-. | Wild Open Source Inc. | |__ / | | |-< | |-< > / | Making the bazaar just a `----ı`-^-ı`-ı`-ı`-ı`-ı `-ı | little more commonplace. home: www.smith-house.org | work: www.wildopensource.com ==== No, the big difference is that Windows is constantly dropping half-amateur code into the kernel. All versions, for example, keep their graphics systems in the kernel, thereby turning what should be a minor bug in the graphics system into a system crash. This is why X is not part of the kernel in Unix. There is nothing stopping MS from hosting Windows on top of a linux kernel. Jacek, multitasking on the PC wasnıt Ŝrst in Windows even from Microsoft. It had Xenix long before. -- .-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-. | Wild Open Source Inc. | |__ / | | |-< | |-< > / | Making the bazaar just a `----ı`-^-ı`-ı`-ı`-ı`-ı `-ı | little more commonplace. home: www.smith-house.org | work: www.wildopensource.com ==== Baby duck syndrome. You donıt discuss, you gainsay ad inŜnitem, with opinions instead of facts and demonstrating a profound inability to grasp either technical issues or legal ones. -- .-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-. | Wild Open Source Inc. | |__ / | | |-< | |-< > / | Making the bazaar just a `----ı`-^-ı`-ı`-ı`-ı`-ı `-ı | little more commonplace. home: www.smith-house.org | work: www.wildopensource.com ==== On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 13:35:14, timite_h@yahoo.fr You walked into that one. Just because I choose not to have an Windows crap on *my* machine, does not mean that I know nothing about Windows. I have to use other machines which now have Win98 and previously had 95. And that software sucks. Its buggy and stupidly written, but instead you wanted to blame the hardware for causing Œdamageı. The software is supposed to run the hardware, not cause it to fail. And I consider that it is the softwareıs fault, if the hardware will run 2 or 3 other OS, but fails with Win software. Get a life. Geoff ==== OK, Windows is more ergonomic because its use is more convenient. How is its use more convenient? more ŝexible than Windows. Um, AFAICT Windows ME is primarily a graphical hack on Windows 98 which is primarily a bugŜx release of Windows 95. Are you suggesting that this entire series is the worst ever designed? I donıt know what the Ŝrst is, but the latter is just as bad about Œpushı technology. (No comment on speed comparison.) um, the X Window System, or X, is what KDE runs on. Iım sorry, I didnıt realize that you were only considering window managers that try to clone much of the things I dislike about Windows. OK... please forgive me: this set of two people does not help me to understand what kind of people you are talking about. ==== It was not an installation. W2K Œjustı lost the Page File AND It was telling me that it was either lost or too small, go to My Computer, click with right mouse button, select Properties, tab Advance and set Virtual Memory (not letter for letter, but still pretty good advice) BUT The W2K just looped from CTRL-ALT-DEL X The W2K is the most stable Windows version ever. Iıd buy it for my company any time. The eXPensive Windows is still under test... ==== The key word is lost. Generally something on the hard drive is lost due to the virus or disk mechanical failure. Solaris at my work was lost itself many times due to the hardware failure. Iıve never considered that as a system problem. You mean keyboard :-) Replace keyboard and maybee mainboard ;-) Athlon mainboards for example were known for the bugs. Now you talking about X Windows accroding to the others, not about OS which they consider only kernel. Jack ==== The same logic can be applied to frozen Windows. Of course. It is Ford, who chooses itıs tire supplier. Ford also could equip the truck with pressure sensors. Technically it is possible and doable. Ford has choosen to make cheap shortcut and did not prevent tire failure. Just like OS neglect to inspect memory and prevent system failure due to the insufŜcient memory. You are an optimist, that belives, that Unix is bug free. Exmple I just gave you is a proof that ist is not true. It did not generated panic message because it just crashed :-) No, they don,t. Freezing the machine means that you have to reboot and loose all your work. OS crashed for anybody who is using it is concerned. There is no way to prevent loss of data once the machine gets frozen. The system does not prevent it so it is a system fault. Exactly the same is held against Windows. Windows do tend to be unstable when application or bad drivers leak resources and/or memory. I donıt know how it is setup, but the people who do that at my company are knowlegeable. Sure it is. In stark contrast to Unix I still could save my work in Windows. Rebooting frozen Unix meant loss of my big part of my day work. Multiply that by several hundred of engineers having such loss few times a month in just one building and that adds up to serious money loss for the company. Jack ==== I am in precalculus right now and was wondering how in the world I can view a table, so to speak, on an HP49: the value of x, the results of one function and the results of another function. See the table below: ___________________________________ | x | y=f(x)=x^2 | y=f(x)=(x-2)^2 | |___|____________|_________________| | -2| 4 | 16 | | 0 | 0 | 4 | | 2 | 4 | 0 | | 4 | 16 | 4 | ------------------------------------ Now I know this is possilbe on the TI calcs, but how about the HP49? ==== Isnıt that in the manual? Greetings, Nick. ==== Yah, I was looking all over for the table on the calculator. I Ŝgured it had to be there. I lost my manual (it ran away with the fork and the spoon, while the cow was jumping over the moon), so I thought I would ask the question and post it. Then later that night while doing my homework, I stumbled across it accidentally. I felt like an idiot for posting such a stupid question. 19:39:33 -0600) ==== Consider the effect of DUP and DROP of a very large list of pointers when reference counting is in use; memory leaks (due to incorrect count decrementing) would also be likely to spring up. It would take a heap of added programming to implement counter adjustment in every RPL command; it might even in the end take much more overall time, because in many cases, counters would increase and then decrease back again, for no net change. Also a heap of extra OS programming, which all existing 48/49 ML would already bypass. These calculators seem to have evolved in a keep it simple small-project manner, originally for older Ŝnancial calc models (starting with HP18C), why should HP have blown it up into a big-computer project? GC was originally barely noticeable anyway; you can keep it that way even on an HP49, if you like: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8q4knt%24ptv%241%40nnrp1 .deja.com Note: use 0. FMEM to completely remove the free memory shrinker. [r->] [OFF] 21:33:29 -0600) ==== http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8q4knt%24ptv%241%40nnrp1 .deja.com Or did I mean 1E7 FMEM ??? Yep, I think that would be better ;-) [r->] [OFF] 22:05:29 -0600) ==== http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3AA3DF37.C7966FB6% 40miu.edu [ignore the now-broken links at end of post] Recall text string to stack, press TOOL VIEW or type SCROLL. Scrolling <-> is mighty slow in this mode, however (press GRAPH for a different mode, also not ideal). TOOL EDIT is yet another built-in mode (in which shifted cursor keys scroll by larger jumps). Ideally, get another (bigger-screen) handheld for this purpose, or revert to that ancient Islamic invention known as paper ;) [r->] [OFF] ==== how i can start programms on my hp 49g, its new! I have the programs in the home directory, but how can i start them? ==== In the Ŝler, select your program and press EVAL Eric 3c40106c$0$5859$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de... the ==== Program runs Ŝne till It hits the the loop>> I have tried everythink (furstrated) Someone please give me a solution. %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); << (L) Lap ? INPUT OBJ-> FD DUP IF 1.625 == THEN 1.625 .1354 - ELSE .0104 - END (R) Lap ? INPUT OBJ-> FD DUP IF 1.625 == THEN 1.625 .1354 - ELSE .0104 - END -> a1 a2 << Bay Width ? INPUT OBJ-> FD -> a3 << a1 a2 + a3 + -> pl << Rows Of Sag Angles ? INPUT OBJ-> 1 + -> a4 << a3 a4 / -> sp << CLLCD 1 a1 sp + -> sp1 << sp1 DF Key 1 0 FIX + = + ->TAG 4 FIX 1 DISP 1 FREEZE a4 2 - DUP 2 -> a5 << START STD sp1 sp + -> sp1 << sp1 DF Key a5 + = + ->TAG 4 FIX a5 DISP a5 FREEZE a5 1 + -> a5 NEXT >> >> ==== Looking at just the START ... NEXT portion, the program begun within the loop must end within the loop, and you canıt create a local variable without a deŜning structure - use STO to store a new value into an existing local variable instead. Is DF a global variable? Which calculator is this for? Try this: START STD sp1 sp + Œsp1ı DUP STO DF Key a5 + = + ->TAG 4 FIX a5 DISP a5 FREEZE a5 1 + Œa5ı STO NEXT James ==== Oops, make that: START STD sp1 sp + DUP Œsp1ı STO DF Key a5 + = + ->TAG 4 FIX a5 DISP a5 FREEZE a5 1 + Œa5ı STO NEXT And yes, the subject line does say 48GX, so ignore that question. James ==== STD acts differently than FIX etc. For whatever reason, STD does NOT take and destroy the bottom entry on the stack. So whatever is on the stack may not be what should be controlling the loop. You may be feeding the wrong numbers to ŒStartı. You may need ...STD DROP... The only way to tell is by creating some stack diagrams and single-stepping through the program... Geoff ==== The tip consist to change a capacitor. Sorry for bad english, i hope you could understand something ... 3e20dad3.0201080949.970c5e9@posting.google.com... ==== I really need some help fast and hope someone here can advise me, know the next step, or who I should talk to. Iım from the Minnesota Department of Transportation in the USA. Weıre trying to port some Land Survey applications from an HP 71b to an HP 49G. Iıve inherited this project about 50% complete with little documentation from a person who is no longer with us. With all that happened with HPıs Calculator Division Iım not even sure if this should be done anymore but for the time being I must continue. We started to port these to the 48 and the switched to the 49 because we ran out of memory just to store the programs. I have several burning issues that are making the whole experience miserable. Iım using TextPad 4.5 for editing. 1. All the Ŝle have a %%HP: T(1)A(D)F(.); at the top and I canıt Ŝnd any reference to them in the Advanced Manual or other resources. What are these, what do they do, and what are they there? 2. Some characters needed by the calculator donıt translate from the DOS or ASCII tables. The Square root symbol is one example. Some are escaped (using other character strings like //v/ on the 48) but doesnıt seem to translate or work on the 49 (see 4). What do I need to do to translate these characters on the 49. The DOS seems to be the code page that it likes. However the characters that appear in my editor are not what Iım attempting to code. 3. I would like an editor that can store and edit all the needed symbols or characters on Windows 2000. Debug2ıs windows stay collapsed and strange on my Win 2000 box. 4. Some of the programs run on the 48 but wonıt even download on the 49 because of syntax errors (see 2). I canıt step through code that the calc canıt store. My Advanced userıs manually is for the 48. 5. Is there are good primer available to deal with these issues and programming the HP in general. The language seems fairly straight forward but with all these problems Iım getting very little done. I very much appreciate you time and thank you in advance for any help you can provide. Tim Marciniak, Programmer Analyst Mn/DOT, Metro Division MIS Mail Stop 050 1500 West County Road B2 Roseville, MN 55113 2. Some characters needed by the calculator donıt translate from the DOS or ASCII tables. The Square root symbol is one example. Some are escaped (using other character strings like //v/ on the 48) but doesnıt seem to translate or work on the 49 (see 4). What do I need to do to translate these characters on the 49. The DOS seems to be the code page that it likes. However the characters that appear in my editor are not what Iım attempting to code. 3. I would like an editor that can store and edit all the needed symbols or characters on Windows 2000. Debug2ıs windows stay collapsed and strange on my Win 2000 box. 4. Some of the programs run on the 48 but wonıt even download on the 49 because of syntax errors (see 2). I canıt step through code that the calc canıt store. My Advanced userıs manually is for the 48. 5. Is there are good primer available to deal with these issues and programming the HP in general. The language seems fairly straight forward but with all these problems Iım getting very little done. I very much appreciate you time and thank you in advance for any help you can provide. ==== These tell some settings to the HP48/HP49 on upload. T(1) means the translation mode (I think this is insert newline only; the special characters are not mapped to the trigraph representations. I always use T(3). A(D) means angle values are degrees (not radians) F(.) is ŝoating point character is dot, not comma The HP48/HP49 inserts this string on Ŝle download in ASCII mode. You should not delete it. You should use ASCII characters only, and use trigraphs or escaped character code numbers for the characters unavailable on the PC. E.g., use 128 for the angle symbol. (OK, you can also use <) for this one, I think. I have my manuals at home...) If you can still run DOS, you may use a DOS editor after running 48.com or 48b.com, found on one of the early Goodies Disks, available at www.hpcalc.org. These commands change the font of a DOS box to the HP48 character set. On Windows, you might want to use the TrueType fonts in HP48 style in your editor. (But donıt ask me how to type char#191 (inverted question mark) on a non-spanish keyboard! :) Or just print out a font map and use the 191 notation. It is possible that some commands are named equal to a new HP49 command. In this case, upload will fail. Try to change the name (in every occurence, of course!). The culprit may be found after an upload error by entering the command KERRM and browsing to the highlit word. www.hpcalc.org Of course, the HP49 should be in RPN mode (press MODE key), but I guess you found this already. Good Luck! -- e9126124@student.tuwien.ac.at ==== You are right: does it pay to invest programming time on a system no one knows how long will last? By what I can guess, you need portability, otherwise porting the programs to desktop computers or notebooks would do. Why not consider a handheld or a palmtop? As far as I know, the HP 71b native language is BASIC, HP 48ıs is User RPL (derived from FORTH). So, whoever ported undocumented 71b programs to the 48 had a hard work doing this. I donıt understand how you ran out of memory: the 71b had little memory (just 17.5 kB, but up to 512K with memory modules). What 48 model did you use, 48G or 48GX? The 48GX has 128K RAM (built-in), to which you can add up to 4MB. I thing you shouldnıt have changed to 49, as the 48GX is more suitable for surveying software, due to the large amount of surveying sofware in ROM cards (check www.smi.com, Surveyorıs Module Inc.). Once you did, why not port 71b programs directly to the 49G, using itıs alternative BASIC language? I donıt know 49G BASIC, though, by what I know, it has little documentation. But that is an option. It would require good knowledge of both 71b and 49G BASIC. This is the header of an hp ASCII listing. T(1) means the listing uses Translation option 1 (see HP 48 Userıs Guide, page 27-16); F(.) means the Floating point symbol is period (European and Latin Americans use comma instead). I donıt remember what A stands for. Anyway, you donıt need to enter the header string in your ASCII programs, as it will be generated automatically by the calculator. Youıll Ŝnd a lot of documentation to 48 and 49G at www.hpcalc.org. G. W. Barbosa 18:29:19 -0600) ==== In RPN mode type 3 TRANSIO then press ENTER; henceforth you will get readable ascii uploads from your calc, http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8013hf%24apm%241%40nnrp1 .deja.com http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3AB195F4.6E36010D% 40miu.edu [r->] [OFF] ==== X IMVHO: Calculator has calculator keys & extensive math library, programming language, keyboard macros, etc. AND the HP 41 model lasted over 10 years and mine operates even after that. EVERY calculator that leaves the factory is a HW dead-end The 49G has an upgradeable Flash ROM, which last from the great grand father to the son. ==== X X [ALT]&191 ==== While I expect that some people in this newsgroup are familiar with the 71B, you might also try http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/forum.cgi, which rather specializes in discontinued models, for 71B-speciŜc questions. You might consider hiring someone with expertise in SysRPL or assembly (ML) for faster, more memory efŜcient programs. If HP does stop making calculators, you can use an emulator. Also, an emulator is useful for debugging on the PC, without downloading to an actual calculator. The 48G has 32kB built-in, the 48G+ and 48GX have 128kB built-in, and you can add memory cards to a 48GX. Also note that there are third-party commercial surveying applications already available for the 48GX; I donıt know whether the 49G has caught on with the surveyors. Personally, Iıd choose the 48G+ or 48GX for real work and the 49G for student use and playing around, but opinions do vary. Search this newsgroup at http://groups.google.com/ for several debates on the relative merits of the 48 series versus the 49g. Iım not familiar with TextPad, but any good text editor should work just Ŝne. Itıs a header which indicates that the Ŝle has been transferred from the calculator in ASCII mode with Kermit. When you transfer the Ŝle back to the calculator, the calculator uses this header to determine how it should treat the text. In general, see chapter 27 of the HP 48G Series Userıs Guide (downloadable in PDF format from http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/misc/, in case you donıt have a copy) for information on transferring Ŝles. The T(1) means that translation option 1 was used, which means that any linefeed character was translated to a linefeed-carriage return pair, and all other characters were left as they were. See TRANSIO in the AUR (HP 48G Series Advanced Userıs Reference Manual) and the tables on page 27-16 of the 48G Series Userıs Guide. For the easiest reading and editing, I recommend using translation option 3. You can transfer the Ŝle back to a calculator, set translation option 3 on the calculator, and then transfer the Ŝle back to the PC. The 49G decompiles a string with the the null character (NUL, ASCII 0) to 00, the quotation mark (, ASCII 34) to , and the backslash character (, ASCII 92) to . This occurs before the Kermit translation. For translation options 2 and 3, the backslash is doubled, so NUL ends up as 00, the quotation mark as , and the backslash as . Also note that when compiling on a 49G, a not followed by another , a , or 00 is silently discarded. In addition, for 49G ROM versions lower than 1.19-6, although NUL decompiles to 00, 00 compiles to 00 instead of to NUL. The 48 doesnıt understand the 49Gıs treatment of NUL, , and , which can cause problems when trying to transfer a Ŝle from a 49G to a 48, regardless of the translation option. There are work-arounds, but itıs a nuisance to have to use them. On the 48, any character string with an embedded quotation mark is transferred (and is edited on the command line) in the counted string form: C$ n characters, where n is the number of characters in the string. For example, the string abcd is transferred as C$ 5 abcd. An alternate form of the counted string is C$ $ characters; in this case, the remainder of the command line or PC Ŝle is a character string; this is useful for converting another object type to a character string while itıs being edited, or when youıve changed the length of an existing counted character string object. The 49G understands counted strings just Ŝne, but I donıt know of any way to make it produce one. The A(D) means that the calculator had the angle mode set to degrees; the other possibilities are A(G) for grads or A(R) for radians. This is for how to treat the angular components of complex numbers or vectors transferred while the calculator was in cylindrical or spherical instead of rectangular coordinates mode. Note that in the calculator, these objects are always internally represented in rectangular coordinates, regardless of the angular display mode, and merely converted to polar coordinates as needed for display purposes. For ASCII transfers, they are converted to the polar form if the calculator is in a polar mode; note that a conversion to the polar form and then back to the rectangular form may actually change the value by a very small amount. The F(.) means that a period (full stop) is used as a fraction mark (decimal point), and a comma is used as a separator for complex numbers and as a digit separator when in FIX mode. The other possibility is F(,) in which case a comma is used as the fraction mark, the semicolon is the separator for complex numbers, and the period is the digit separator when in FIX mode. Set the translation option to 3; this will translate characters 128-255 to standard printable ASCII characters. What will be displayed for any control character 0 through 31 and 127 depends on your editor. The default character set table for the 48 series is at the command NUM in the AUR (but note that 166 and 184 are incorrect in the book). The 49G uses different characters for 10 and 28 through 30. On the 48G series and 49G you can review the character set by pressing RightShift CHARS. These sets share many characters with ISO 8859-1 (ECMA 94 Latin alphabet no. 1). Exceptions that Iım aware of are characters 0 through 31, 127-159, 169, and 174. I suppose that you could set up your editor to display the same character set, but then it may be a bit difŜcult to remember how to enter the extended characters from the keyboard. I recommend using translation option 3 instead. Iıve never used Windows 2000, but as long as you use translation option 3, any halfway decent text editor or word processor set up for text only should do. Even MS Notepad is usable, although I personally prefer TSE Pro-32 (visit http://www.semware.com/ for information). After a syntax error, execute KERRM on the calculator. This will give you a portion of the text with a fat right arrowhead (character 134) at the point where it detected the error. For example, an IF ... ELSE ... END (missing a THEN) will have the arrowhead just before the ELSE. This, combined with a rough observation of how much was downloaded before the error occurred, should help you pinpoint the problem. Itıs hard for me to imagine that a program that was uploaded from a 48 wouldnıt even download to the 49G, unless it was edited (possibly without due attention to the translation option). But a lot of things about the 49G have surprised me. In general, most programs that run on the 48 should run on the 49G, but some 48 commands may not be quite the same on the 49G, and also thereıs the possibility that a global name on the 48 may happen to be the same as one of the many new commands on the 49G. If a program written on a 48 is to be transferred to a 49G, put the 49G in approximate mode to avoid having real numbers (type 0) without a decimal point changed to integers (AKA ZINTs, type 28). Good, the documentation has gotten worse. But download the guides for the 49G from http://www.hp.com/calculators/techsupport/graphing/49g_ userguide/ or http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/misc/. Visit http://www.engr.uvic.ca/~aschoorl/faq/, http://cgi-bin.spaceports.com/~hpkb/index.php, and http://www.hpcalc.org/. Also search the archive of this newsgroup at http://groups.google.com/ when you have a question, or post the question if you donıt Ŝnd an answer. For available books visit http://greatunpublished.com/bookstore/bookstore.html and search for author Urroz, and also visit http://www.read-gpi.com/. My personal favorites for UserRPL (now out of print, but perhaps you can Ŝnd them) are HP 48 Insights Part I: Principles and Programming (ISBN 0-9625258-3-9), HP 48 Insights Part II: Problem-Solving Resources (ISBN 0-9625258-4-7), both for the 48S series, and HP 48 Insights Part I: Principles and Programming HP 48G/GX Edition (ISBN 0-9625258-5-5), all by William C. Wickes; unfortunately, 48 Insights Part II G/GX edition was never published. Also very useful are The HP 48 Handbook (I donıt Ŝnd an ISBN in the book) for the 48S series and The HP 48 Handbook 2nd Edition (ISBN 1-879828-04-9) for the 48G series, both by James Donnelly. Youıre welcome. James ==== I tried with fresh batteries today, icons still on! I remember a post I read before the summer 2001 about that mode but i canıt Ŝnd it...... Bye Kashumi ==== another question: is IP the command on th hp49 for f(x)=int(x)? say i put 1.2 in for the value of x, IP returns 1, is that the correct answer? also, how do you graph it? i am really lost, some help would be great. ==== Yes IP returns the Integer Part of a given real number. To graph it just store ŒIP(X)ı as the current equation, adjust plot parameters and then let draw. (Just like any other function.) The resulting plot is the Led Zeppelin Curve - Stairway to heaven ;-) Greetings, Nick. ==== Question then, I thought that INT would be the command for returning the greatest possible integer less than or equal to zero. IP doesnıt seem to be that command. IP just returns the realnumber of an arument. EG 5.1=5. What command returns the greatest integer less than or equal to the argument (a)? What command returns the smallest integer greater than or equal to the argument (b)? EG(a) 5.1=5 while EG(b) 5.1=6. INT doesnıt give me what I want. What does INT do anyway? ==== Well, if you consider negative values in the domain, it really looks kind of like a Diversion to Hell =) ==== According to the Fine Manual (CAS commands), INT is for the antiderivative. FLOOR CEIL 5.1 FLOOR returns 5. -5.1 FLOOR returns -6. 5.1 CEIL returns 6. -5.1 CEIL returns -5. 5.1 IP returns 5. -5.1 IP returns -5. Please Read The Fine Manual. ==== You can use a PTR with debug2 if you place this in your source: ASSEMBLE =PTR39251 EQU #39251 RPL Then use PTR39251 as a command in your source. This means that the routine at adress #39251 will be used if you put PTR39251 in your source-code. But be carefull, because you are using an unsupported entry and so you can discover with NOSY) otherwise your calc may crash or ask you TTRM. Greetings AM ==== Al d216 10 Jan 2002 03:52:36 -0800, andreas_moeller@gmx.de (AM) al dgeve: Where this statement must be inserted in Debug2ıs Informbox Generator? I have tried to put it a) DeŜnitionıs Ŝeld b) Init Codeıs Ŝeld But the result is an error in compilation stage (see below) So the message handler should be something like this: :: { BINT5 :: DUPTYPEZINT? IT FLASHPTR Z>R DUP %0 %>= ?SEMI Must Be Positive! FlashWarning ; } PTR39251 ITE :: EVAL TRUE ; DROPFALSE ; But I get these errors: case a): Illegal Mnemonic =PTR39251 EQU #39251 (pointing to PTR39251 deŜnition case b): same as a) plus Unexisting Entry PTR39251 (pointing to PTR39251 call in the messagehandler) But JYA once stated that pointers from 25565 to 40000 are unsupported but stable, so I think that we can use them (obviously if we know how to use them...) Bye Marco /-----------------------/ Marco Tinarelli - Bologna - Italy tittiXXYYZZ_tt@tin.it (togliere XXYYZZ dallıindirizzo per rispondere) ==== al dgeve: First of all, thank you for all the time you spend for me. Hard way for me, I say :-( I tried to cut & paste your code and to compile it and everything worked Ŝne. But when I try to reproduce this code for my use (the example I posted at the beginning of the thread was just a simple example for understand how to do things on my input in a general way) I failed to get a working code. Maybe itıs because I use the InformBox Generator in Debug2 for getting my inputforms, when I see that your code is written by hand (you use IfMain command when the Informbox Generator uses IfMain2) I cut&pasted all this Ŝeld message handler in one Ŝeld of my inputform (who contains more than a Ŝeld, if it may have some inŝuence) Here I choose Text in choose box Type in the InformBox Generator window to obtain the following code line: Here I check the Str box in Type area: Here I check only Mini Font in Decomp area Here comes the Ŝrst problem. I think that the following code line is related to the Choose decomp choose box, but the options that this Ŝeld gives to me are only ONE, TWO and FOUR. No MINUSONE appears. This informbox messagehadler is not necessary, isnıt it? If you Ŝnd it opportune, I may send you my code for checking whatıs wrong. By the way, have you ever considered to write something about your knowledge of IfMain/IfMain2 commands? I mean, something focused on message handlers (itıs quite easy to produce a simple input form, if your needs are simple). I will love a document that reports some how to.... Maybe you can write something that is not complete, and other HPgurus (JYA, CdB or others) may Ŝll the holes. Just a suggestion... Bye, Marco /-----------------------/ Marco Tinarelli - Bologna - Italy tittiXXYYZZ_tt@tin.it (togliere XXYYZZ dallıindirizzo per rispondere) ==== Iıve ordered a 49G and it should be here next week. Is this the recommended ROM I should install? Does it have the built-in assembler, disassembler, compiler, and decompilers? Also is it stable? Are there any MAJOR problems found in it? Mike ==== recommended problems ROM: ftp://fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/pub/hp48/vger.ŝash or Bzipped: ftp://fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/pub/hp48/vger.ŝash.bz2 Get Extable to use Symbolic=Named Addresses That is - SysRPL Entry Table. Here: http://www.epita.fr/~avenar_j/hp/product/extable.zip MASD docs: http://www.hp.com/calculators/graphing/sdk/masd_ documentation.pdf Zipped: http://www.hp.com/calculators/graphing/sdk/masd_ documentation.zip For other Docs, see: www.hpcalc.org ==== I would like to inform you that I will no longer develop applications for the HP48 and HP49 calculators. Also, I quit the support of my programs! This means that I will no longer answer questions regarding them. I have been developing Structural Engineering applications for about Ŝve years now and I (humbly) think that many of them are among the best of all those programs out there. My programs can still be downloaded at www.hpcalc.org and http://home.hccnet.nl/c.lugtmeier/ (will be redesigned). I will try to upload all the source code Ŝles to hpcalc.org so future users can make some changes. Perhaps some agreement can be made about the maintenance of some of them (FEM48/49, SED48/49 and SECTN48/49). I will look into this. I wish the HP community all the best! Caspar Lugtmeier (who never received the Calypso he was promised by ACO, and who would now settle for an HP49) -- ==== developped for this years.. It helped me in some exams and at work very much.. J.Manrique CdU de la ETSIG ==== Your documentation was so good that never felt I needed your support (take note HP and the rest of the hardware/software development community). Great work and, best of (luck) and enjoyment your new endeavors. I hope HP comes through for you. G Savage message some of ==== I wish you all the best! Iıve never use your software becouse its not my Ŝeld but Iıve read (which is not understand!) it documentation and its features surprise me. I only say thank you a lot and good luck. Luis. -- --------------------------------------- Luis Morales Boisset http://www.arrakis.es/~lboisset ==== Some problems are listed at http://bugs.hpcalc.org/ James ==== Well James, it appears there are alot of bugs out there... Since Iım updating from 1.10, should I install 1.18 or 1.19-6 larry ==== I would use vger.ŝash from B.Parisse ft site.. Ok, I doesnıt have exp() pretty-print, but it Ŝxes some bugs from CAS and EQW.. thatıs more important than pretty-print ;-) Have fun, J.Manrique CdU de la ETSIG ==== J.Manrique Where is this site? larry ==== Here it is: ftp://fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/pub/hp48/ Itıs a nice place to visit and discover things.. Hvae fun, J.Manrique CdU de la ETSIG ==== ==== J.Manrique How do you connect to this site, Iım not having any success larry ==== Here is the link copied from my Netscape links bar: ftp://fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/pub/hp48/ I hope it helps.. J.Manrique CdU de la ETSIG ==== Itıs not working for me, Iıve tried the browser, ftple, and I found the web page but no ŝash Ŝle is shown. larry ==== Ok, I donıt understand the reason... I hope this ŝash Ŝle could be reached from Ok, It can be downloaded from our site in Spain (CdU): http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu/ I hope this helps.. J.Manrique CdU de la ETSIG ==== Is this a new CAS, or a regression? JYA 1.19-6 Ver 4.20010912 BP Vger.ŝash Ver 4.2001083 Ver seems like an earlier version, but it is not clear. Bill Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) ==== Read previous posts about this CAS update... In a few works: -Itıs a CAS update -O.S. code is not the 1.19-6 Ŝnal code. You have to choose: -Fixed CAS or -Nice pretty-print with exp() function Iıve choosen last CAS, Iıd like my calc to do right calcs, the way it showns the results is not priority J.Manrique CdU de la ETSIG ==== After inputting an equation into the calculator using the plotting environment how can this equation then be solved using the numerical solver? With an equation like Y1(X)= 5 + X^2 all I see is Y1(X) in the equation Ŝeld of the solve equation screen. ==== Johnathan, Could you please explain some of the RPL commands - I can not Ŝnd any info on them, namely realPAcode & NOTcsdrpŝs Tim ==== realPAcode : Internal PCO used by palparse to convert strings into real numbers. It takes the string to be converted, the exponent separator and the fraction mark (both strings) as arguments. (in that order) The output is either the corresponding real number followed by two TRUEıs or the original string followed by one of two failure codes namely : FALSE, or FALSE TRUE . NOTcsdrpŝs : This is a ŝow control word equivalent in behavior to NOT case :: DROP FALSE ; . Hope this helps... ------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== I just found this group today while looking around for the current HP calculator situation. My colleague at work has found his 48g (old) has crapped out, so I was helping him to Ŝnd out about the current state of calculator technology so he could make a decision about what to replace it with. Now I found out about the fact that HP is dumping their calculator development. Bummer. While I am familiar with the TIs, used to them, and Ŝnd them able to do some very sophisticated tasks (and I love the 15MHz CPU in the TI-83+ Ag ed. WOW!), ultimately I think it is unfortunate for us all if HP gives up. Competition is good. Maybe TI will just coast now. I still think they could do a lot better than a 15 MHz Z80 for $140. So now Iım giving my co-worker a bunch of demos of my TI-83 and letting him borrow it. At some point Iıd like to entertain further discussions on this or another group, giving examples of some of the favorite (and what I think are impressive) tasks that I have done with TI-83 calculators over the ages, and see how HPs compare. Also, in such discussions Iıd like to hear about what HP masters can do with their units. The purpose is not to try to start arguments, but to see what the ideal calculator should be able to do, because if the ultimate calculator existed, it would be able to do everything that both of ours can do together, and more. I am generally not interested in CAS on calculators. I wish TI would not have bothered. Iıd rather see better diff-eq solvers, better hardware, and other really improved numerical computation and data analysis (and perhaps peripheral interface) capabilities than CAS. Unless the thing has much more memory and CPU horsepower, like at least the Ŝrst PC I ran Mathematica on (a 486-66 with 32MB) then I think that a CAS would be very limited in usefullness. Nothing can touch MMA when it comes to CAS. I have been using TIs for years, and now I am thinking about building a calculator that has some serious computing horsepower, and a much higher resolution screen (QVGA), backlit, and maybe even a color TFT. This will probably be mostly for fun and to learn about microprocessors. If anyone is interested, there are three recent threads on sci.electronics.design beginning on Jan 1, 2002 containing discussions about this subject. Feel free to insert your thoughts. The thread titles are: Anyone doing 32-bit MCU/CPU at home? How to feed the computer? How to make a product? -- _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net ==== hi Chris, if you need a display for your calc (+ $6 with backligth), this may help: http://www.mouser.com/products/detail.cfm?mpart=628-G241D01R& CustRef=&source =search&CFID=12434869&CFTOKEN=93669410 with an evaluation kit: http://www.mouser.com/products/detail.cfm?mpart=628-G8EVALKIT &CustRef=&sourc e=search&CFID=12434869&CFTOKEN=93669410 i just started with AVR (nice). i downloaded the new GNU sof at avrfreaks.net i am panning to make a datta logger under $10 for the HP49G, and i just seen an idea for a digital storage scope for the HP49G (under $10). PS: for those interested in a cheap data-logger (PC) ready made with CD, get it for $12.95 at http://www.dataq.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/115.htm?E+scstore says... ==== Differential equation solvers are part of a computer algebra system. CAS does not mean just the symbolic manipulation. Also, symbolic and numeric computation often rely on each other. Bhuvanesh. <662e00ed.0201110811.1d366e75@posting.google.com> ==== Perhaps you can clarify this, because I am not an expert. I thought that you could write any sort of diff-eq solver without a CAS. That is, calculate all operations numerically. I know that in a CAS like MMA, it may calculate some derivatives symbolically, then run numerical stuff. Comments appreciated. _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net ==== an Optrex display from DigiKey, but they donıt seem to allow single quantity purchases on many of the Optrex models. Iıll have to see what else they have at Mouser. I will probably do a machine with 320x240 QVGA with CFL backlighting, preferrably with a transŝective LCD so it will be good in low and high lighting environments. I really wish to do color, but that may have to wait. Yes, AVR is very sweet. I can write assembly for that chip almost as easily as writing C. But I wonıt use an AVR for a calculator. I am thinking a Motorola Dragonball, the VX running 33 MHz, like many of the Palm PDAs. I am also considering an ARM, but I think a 68000 class CPU might be better as I will be using GCC and there are some problems with ŝoating point libs on ARM, but 68k fp libs are very mature. _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net ==== Actually, Iım not an expert, either... just starting out :) Yes, itıs possible, but there can be great beneŜts from using symbolics at times. It has to be used carefully, though, as symbolics can for example very easily run into what is called intermediate expression swell or can take a long time. I canıt give details of how Mathematica intersperses symbolics and numerics, but this talk might give some idea: http://www.iwu.edu/~pkapitza/cs357/downloads/talk/index.html Bhuvanesh. ==== I just posted a reply, but forgot to include this... Try searching for hybrid symbolic-numeric (without the quotes) on, say, Google. Bhuvanesh. ==== Iıd like to see: Pocketable, clamshell design similar to the fx-7500G (http://www.rskey.org/fx7500g.htm) except have a 320x240, [at least 8-bit] color, sidelit, reŝective touch-screen display take up the entire top half of the calc. Non-qwerty keyboard layout (so we could use it on tests). Fully programmable with on-the-calc assembler, debugger, and user (higher-level) language w/debugger. Lots of RAM :) Flashable ROM. Well-documented architecture (choose your chips wisely). Connection port (probably RS-232). Real-time clock. Too much? ;) ==== No, this is a perfectly reasonable request. Perhaps your wish can be granted. Check this out: for is the Sharp Zaurus, but this has a qwerty. Some of these may not be readily available yet, but I think the next Hereıs another, but without a keyboard: _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net <662e00ed.0201110811.1d366e75@posting.google.com> <3C3F571A.2020909@BOGUSFIELD.earthlink.net> <662e00ed.0201111818.1d53abaa@posting.google.com> ==== Maybe Iıll have to do some reading about CAS and how to write one someday. My impressions have always been that it would be way over my head. I did an inŜx algebraic xpression parser once, that emitted RPN which was then evaluated by a stack machine. This was the most complicated programming Iıve done. I know numerical analysis very well theoretically, and through running a lot of algorithms on my TI and MMA, but havenıt actually written a Runge-Kutta, for instance. But I feel a diff-eq solver like that is quite approachable with my level of skill, but CAS seems too mysterious. One thing that puzzles me is that since it is so logical to build an inŜx parser that emits RPN, why didnıt TI and HP just make their calculators have a mode switch, so that people could have it both ways? Then people could choose calculators based on which has the most appropriate set of functions and peripherals for their needs, instead of the input syntax being a thing which divides the calculator world into two input syntactical ideology camps. -- _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net ==== RAM? CAS? EQW? Variables as single letters only? Atteched Units that work with the Numeric Solver? Nope! No way man! Insisting on TI, youıd be better off with the new TI-92 variant. Get a calc! Buy a HP 49G ! X Interesting! Thanx for the links! ==== Itıs too bad the screen is barely readable, because I love the design of it. Hopefully someday they will improve it. Too much like a PDA. I donıt think this is the ideal hardware for our purposes. It will be better when they have established a software base and can concentrate more on hardware issues. Very nice, but like you said, no keypad. We could make soft buttons on screen tho ;) I think a widescreen version would be ideal (like the Casio I mentioned before but with the screen extended across the entire top half), as opposed to a vertical (PocketPC) or traditional (HP48/49) layout. Maybe thatıs just me though? Like I said I would love to convert the Yopy into a programmable graphic calc, but from reports of people whoıve received theirs already, the screen ruins the device. Thereıs no backlight/frontlight and itıs not reŝective either. Itıs just a standard TFT with no lighting. I donıt understand how they could release a product like that. Also I read one of your posts over on s.e.design where you said graphic calcs donıt have touch-screens. I donıt know how old that was but in case you havenıt run across it, Sharp makes one...I think itıs called the 9600c. ==== hi Chris, I will probably do a machine with 320x240 likr this one (see the display specs on page) color 320 x 240? http://www.ŝuke.com/products/home.asp?PID=31768 easy. ==== X X But HP did in the 49G and you can run RPL> in Algebraic Programs and ŒAlgebraicsı can be handled in both modes while `Algebraics` is the way to do ALG-Mode inside RPN did I misunderstood you? Veli-Pekka ==== Does anyone here know Tim Wessman? I am a friend of his (through the comparisons, etc.). He gave me one of his HP-49Gıs and I need some or just reply here. :) --Nate ==== Gone to Honduras for a couple years to do missionary work, I believe. I donıt http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search. BTW, this newsgroup and http://www.hpcalc.org/ are good places for help with the 49G. James ==== archiving them for him I believe but thereıs no guarantee when heıll get them. -- Colin Croft Old mathematicians never die; they just lose some of their functions. ====================================== Applications in Mathematics ccroft@iinet.net.au http://members.iinet.net.au/~ccroft/ ====================================== ==== calculator discussions while he is on his mission. He will be back in two years. Brad ==== Yes, I know he went to be a missionary. I have been writting to him and he told me about this site, and told me to look for some of his friends, which he said would help if I needed any. I have already gotten lots of help from others that donıt know him. >:) He sent me one of HPıs, as I said earlier, before he became a missionary to the Hondorus. ==== Yeah, Tim is a great guy, and I believe we are many here who would be glad to answer your questions. Fire away. Have you been using RPN calcs before? 22:25:09 -0600) ==== Seen: Just in time to read ancient archives of this obsolete group :) [ON] [SPC] ==== Heıll need two years more ;) Ricardo -- http://iespgirona.xtec.es/~rblasco/ Un222os, hermanos linuxeros 640 Kb de memoria son m207s que suŜcientes (IBM AT Designers - 1982) Bueno, espero que esto no aparezca en la versi227n Ŝnal (Bill Gates en la presentaci227n de Windows Crash Debug Œ98) ==== First the errata of the last parts: As Thomas Rast has noticed, the example: contained an error. It should be: 263Enter COS(3*X) and press TEXPAND. ^ Also, G. Illias suggested to make side notes, if appropriate, for showing how such things can be done with the HP48. Im doing this for the parts posted until now and for all next parts. When I wrap them up and send them to hpcalc, the side notes will be available. I dont post them here, because the HP48 doesnt have the CAS out of the box, so most of the time much programming is needed, to automate things. If anything has became clear until now, then this must be the fact that there are many too many relations between trigonometric functions, and no general rule for working with all of them. Knowledge of math is important, but getting used to the way that the commands work is also important. As you use your HP49G more and more, you start 263knowing in advance what the result of some function or command will look like, and you develop a kind of built-in instinct, which helps you to Ŝnd out, which way you should follow to solve some problem. As Trabakoulas, the father soul of all shepards says: 263Here on the Trigomounts, my son, there is no such thing like a compass that always brings you to your destination. Go with care and ratio and dont be afraid to stop and return to your starting point, when you see that some way gets difŜcult with time. In this 6th part of the trigonometry marathon we are going to do some stuff for which the HP49G doesnt provide built-in commands. But we will see that nontheless the HP49G can handle such cases. If I remember well, there has been a discussion here, about such conversions like: SIN(X)+SIN(Y) = 2*SIN((X+Y)/2)*COS((X-Y)/2) (1) I didnt Ŝnd any single command on the HP49G, which does this convertion from the left to the right. We have to use several commands in combination. Lets enter SIN(X)+SIN(Y). Note that the result that we want to have contains only trigonometric functions of the *half* of X and Y. So we hope that we can start with HALFTAN, which converts trigonometric functions to TANs of the half angle. Press HALFTAN. Now the arguments are all X/2 and Y/2 but we have TAN instead of SIN and COS. Lets turn TANs to SINs and COSs. Press TAN2SC. The resulting expression looks a bit of wierd. Trough repeated attempts and not through 263knowing in advance I found that a good way to go is teh following: Press COLLECT to factor the expression. (Takes some time, so be patient.) Take the resulting expression in the EQW and switch to mini font to see more of the expression. The numerator is: ( COS(Y/2)*SIN(X/2)+COS(X/2)*SIN(Y/2) ) * ( SIN(Y/2)*SIN(X/2)+COS(X/2)*COS(Y/2) ) * 2 Select the Ŝrst sub-expression of the numerator and press TCOLLECT. This converts the sub-expression to SIN((X+Y)/2). Looks like we are on the right way. Select the second sub-expression and press TCOLLECT again. Fine, we have COS((X-Y)/2). Select the whole denominator and press TCOLLECT again. This returns a nice round 1. Press ENTER and then EXPAND to get rid of this 1 in the denominator. Voila! Summary of what we have done: HALFTAN, TAN2SC, COLLECT, TCOLLECT applied to the Ŝrst and second sub-expression of the numerator, TCOLLECT applied to the denominator and EXPAND. You can use the same method also for: SIN(X)-SIN(Y) = 2*SIN((X-Y)/2)*COS((X+Y)/2) (2) COS(X)+COS(Y) = 2*COS((X+Y)/2)*COS((X-Y)/2) (3) COS(X)-COS(Y) = 2*SIN((X+Y)/2)*SIN((X-Y)/2) (4) A similar transformation is: SIN(X)-SIN(Y) TAN((X-Y)/2) -------------=------------- SIN(X)+SIN(Y) TAN((X+Y)/2) If we apply the above method separately on the numerator and the denominator of the left hand side, we get: SIN((X-Y)/2)*COS((X+Y)/2) ------------------------- COS((X-Y)/2)*SIN((X+Y)/2) (Take the left hand side in the EQW, select the numerator, apply the above method, then select the denominator and apply the method again.) Press ENTER to put the expression on the stack. Use TRIGTAN to convert SINs and COSs to TANS of the same argument, and youre ready. But now the question is: 263Do I have to do all this every time I want to do such a convertion? Well, no! It would be cumbersome and not so easy, because we applied some trigonometric functions separately on *parts* of our expressions. If we wanted to do exactly the same programmatically, then we would have to use commands that split our expressions, check what the sub-expressions are and what the functions are that combine the sub-expressions, check arguments, and so on. Because we dont want to write a new CAS on top of the existing CAS, we choose an easier way: vMATCH (Again, ;-) ) For example, we can use vMATCH with the list: { SIN(&A)+SIN(&B) 2*SIN((&A+&B)/2)*COS((&A-&B)/2) } for the convertion (1). But then we have 2 problems: 1) How can we be sure that this would work, also for not factored expressions, like for example SIN(X)^2-SIN(Y)^2 ? 2) How can we repeatedly match, until all matching has been done? The answer to the Ŝrst question seems to be to use COLLECT, so that the necessary factoring for the following vMATCH is achieved. I dont know if this works perfectly, but I didnt have any case where it didnt up to now. The answer to the second question is, to use vMATCH in a loop, until nothing more can be matched. The following small program does all this for the convertion (1): << COLLECT WHILE { SIN(&A)+SIN(&B) 2*SIN((&A+&B)/2)*COS((&A-&B)/2) } vMATCH REPEAT END You can add more WHILE-REPEAT-END loops for convertions (2),(3) and (4) if you like. The loop uses the 1 or 0 returned by vMATCH, to check if it some matching has been done or not. If something matched, it repeats. If nothing matched it exits. There also a funny thing in this loop. Remember that the general form of such loops is: WHILE test-clause REPEAT body END But in this case we have done something like: WHILE body-and-test-cleause REPEAT END The actions to be repeated is also where the test-clause resides, between the WHILE and the REPEAT statement, because vMATCH returns both the results of the work *and* a true (1) or false (0). Nice demonstration of the ŝexibility of the HP49G, isnt it? Somehow it reminds me of C, where such 263compacting of test-clauses and work in a single line are also possible. Lets now move on to: TAN(X)+TAN(Y)=SIN(X+Y)/(COS(X)*COS(Y)) Enter the left hand side and press TAN2SC, to convert TANs to SINs and COSs, the functions that appear on the right hand side. Press EXPAND and you get: COS(Y)*SIN(X)+COS(X)*SIN(Y) --------------------------- COS(Y)*COS(X) The denominator already looks like what we want. Press down arrow to get the expression in the EQW, select the numerator and press TCOLLECT. Voila! And now for some examples: 1) Turn SIN(X)^2-SIN(Y)^2 to a product of trigonometric functions X/2 and Y/2 The method described above works here. We Ŝrst COLLECT to turn the expression to (SIN(X)-COS(X))*(SIN(X)+COS(X)) . Then we use for each factor: HALFTAN, TAN2SC, COLLECT, TCOLLECT applied to the Ŝrst and second sub-expression of the numerator, TCOLLECT applied to the denominator and EXPAND. Or we just use the program from above. 2) Turn (SIN(X)^2-SIN(Y)^2)/(COS(X)+COS(Y))^2 to a product of trigonometric functions X/2 and Y/2 We Ŝrst COLLECT to turn the expression to (SIN(X)-COS(X))*(SIN(X)+COS(X))/(COS(X)+COS(Y))^2 . Then we use separately for each factor on the numerator and for the denominator the above method. At the end we also use TRIGTAN and we get: TAN((X+Y)/2)*TAN((X-Y)/2) Or we just use the program from above, followed by a TRIGTAN. 3) Show that: COS(2*A)-COS(4*A) ----------------- = TAN(A)*TAN(3*A) COS(4*A)+COS(2*A) Again, use HALFTAN, TAN2SC and COLLECT on the whole expression. Then TCOLLECT each factor of the numerator and the denominator separately. Then use TRIGTAN on the whole expression. Or use the program and then TRIGTAN. 4) Convert the expression: 1+SIN(X)+COS(X)+SIN(X)*COS(X) to a product. Press HALFTAN, TAN2SC and COLLECT. After this you have: (SIN(X/2)+COS(X/2))^2*COS(X/2)*2 ------------------------------- (SIN(X/2)^2+COS(X/2)^2)^2 Get the expression in the EQW and apply TRIG on the denominator, to replace it with a 1. Now select the sub-expression (SIN(X/2)+COS(X/2)) and press TCOLLECT. Press ENTER and then COLLECT to get: COS(X/2)^2*COS(X/2-Pi/4)*4 In the last example the step TCOLLECT did another trigonometric transfomation: a*SIN(X)+b*COS(X) = SQRT(A^2+B^2)*COS(X+ATAN(B/A)-Pi/2) If you enter the left hand side and press TCOLLECT you get that. But this works only in real mode. In complex mode pressing TCOLLECT doesnt do anything. Also, if A and B are expressions with trigonometric functions themselves, then you get different results, depending on what exactly A and B look like. So if you want this type of conversion to be performed independently of what A and B look like, you should write a small program (perhaps using vMATCH ;-) ) to always get the desired result. Thats all for today. Of course if some genious out there Ŝnds a better/faster method, then please tell us, so that we dont raise the consume of coffee to unbelievable degrees, waiting for the HP49G to Ŝnish some calculation. Having said that and after all complaining about the slowlyness of the HP49G, how much time would such things take, if we were suppoused to do them by hand? Greetings, Nick. ==== Next part is coming up soon. Greetings, Nick. ==== Never mind, my HP-Borg-implants received your hyperspace thoughts long before you clariŜed this here. ;-) Twice as fast! Well, me not so stupid, it seems. :-) Greetings, Nick. P.S. By the way, do you use the built-in sorting command to sort the list? I ask, because if the sorting is not important for the rest of the program, you should also consider that the other methods introduced here could be faster and they would work with ascending and descending lists. ==== Quite right, I misunderstood. But this will do: << GDLIST PILIST 1. == >> ( GDLIST is LIST ) Of course, the program will fail on contrived examples like: { 2. 4. 3.5 } but I assume the input to be all integers By the way, < in my Ŝrst post should have been <, of course, and then the program checks to see if a list is in Œstrict ascending orderı indeed - but not whether the spacing is exactly 1. Werner Huysegoms ==== The raw data isnıt sorted initially but it needs to be sorted, using the internal routine, farther up in the program to do some other testing. -- john R. Latala jrlatala@golden.net <44ec85ff.0201092308.6785d481@posting.google.com> ==== But this program fails with { 3 2 1 }, it returns 1, and the numbers are not in strict ascending order. Based on your program, this one works: << 1 GETI -> A << GETI A - 0 > >> UNROT DROP GDLIST PILIST 1. == AND >> It takes a little longer though. -- Erwann ABALEA erwann@abalea.com ----- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound? 22:53:00 -0600) ==== I saw this (from Werner?): | << GDLIST PILIST 1. == >> So I assume that you also mean that the list contains only integers, and that you want to check whether the *sorted* list of *integers* is all *consecutive*, in which case why not: << DUP SIZE DUP2 GET ROT 1. GET - 1. + == >> The light blinded you? The red light blinded you? I see, the ŝashing red light on the car you hit blinded you! - Bob Newhart [The Driving Instructor] [r->] [OFF] 23:27:01 -0600) ==== On saying what you mean: ------------------------ Then you should say what you mean, the March Hare went on. I do Alice hastily replied, at least I mean what I say -- thatıs the same thing, you know. Not the same thing a bit! said the Hatter, Why you might just as well say that ŒI see what I eatı is the same thing as ŒI eat what I seeı You might just as well say, added the March Hare, that ŒI like what I getı is the same thing as ŒI get what I likeı You might just as well say, added the Doormouse, which seemed to be talking in its sleep, that ŒI breathe when I sleepı is the same thing as ŒI sleep when I breatheı! It is the same thing with you, said the Hatter, and here the conversation dropped. [C. L. Dodgson] Who was Alice (and who and what was Dodgson)? http://www-groups.dcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~history/ Mathematicians/Dodgson.html http://www.people.virginia.edu/~bhs2u/carroll/dodgson.html http://www.lewiscarroll.org/carroll.html <3C3FC42B.213A8E3B@miu.edu> 00:03:49 -0600) ==== Re: << DUP SIZE DUP2 GET ROT 1. GET - 1. + == >> I also assumed that the sorted integers to be tested for consecutive sequence are *distinct* (scrap my very fast program if not so :) [r->] [OFF] ==== I read thereıs a new vger.ŝash Ŝle aroung which Ŝxes a solve bug. Can anybody give me some details about the bug? Are there some *serious* math-related bugs around? [I remember a nice thread with JHM where I told him that math bugs are the only bugs we should worry about] -- The set of solutions is never empty. Two solutions together form a new problem. -- Mycroft Holmes 21:19:13 -0600) ==== It was written: But does it state that the system is conŜdential and not to be disclosed for some period of time? Isnıt selling the system a disclosure (of content, engineering, and even current appearance, etc.) to unauthorized parties? IIRC, HP never seemed to want any prototypes even to be seen in public, so HP might maintain that their disclosure or sale would be construed as violation of NDA. HP could, after all, change its mind and resume development tomorrow; they did not give up any of their rights by just saying that they halted the current development program. My friend gave me a copy of a book heıs writing; say, anyone want to buy it from me? Look for it at Tacky Stuff Outlet ;-) [r->] [OFF] ==== $817, its a little Xpensive Eric YXZZ7.83646$6m1.2434995@typhoon.austin.rr.com...