A15 This sounds very interesting. It will be a nice read when I get my HP49G soon that I ordered AFTER I heard about the death of ACO. I am still impressed with it and am pleased that there will be a fight for the GPL and open sourcing of the ROM. Sorry If once I get to reading it that I won't have many comments just because I am somewhat of a newbie convert from TI (The somewhat stems fro the fact that I use the emulator as a calculator for my computer since I heard about it 2 years ago but I only have basic experience with it) Thanks for your work Ed Page Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142228 dgeve: No News, Good News. Normally users tend to post if they find that something is wrong. When it's all right, there's non need to post something... By the way, I did'n know that the flag part was finished, and I have find it on hpcalc.org just today (I check every day hpcalc.org to see if there's something new and interesting). I will see the document as soon as possible and I will try to say something (here or in the italian mailing List - why you don't post there anymore?) My problem now is the time, but more documents I'll find about HP49, more happy I'll become. Ciao, Marco /-----------------------/ Marco Tinarelli - Bologna - Italy tittiXXYYZZ_tt@tin.it (togliere XXYYZZ dall'indirizzo per rispondere) (cut XXYYZZ from e-mail address to contact me) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142243 news:8fnbut4frtibuqlbbhebfgt4oqdcscl16p@4ax.com... (SNIP) Yes, I know... but cause I'm not an HP49 guru, I'd like to hear something from other users and, if I'm particulary lucky, from the gurus themselves! Although I'm not writing a book on SysRPL or Assembler or on any other particularly complex aspect of the calc, I think that the pointofview of a really experienced user of HP49G can be the plus for a good documentation, especially if you want to write something *really* complete, that can help the newbies and be useful also for experienced users. I post here the URL to download the document, because lot of people - after this post ^_^ - asked me to mail them the document and I don't like to send an only generic email. And, cause I have no time to write an email to each person asking me about the doc, I prefer discussions here on topic. BTW The URL is: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/misc/flags10.zip Non posto pi235 alla mailing list perch216 non 217 molto attiva e perch216 noi utenti HP italiani siamo davvero in pochi. Quella mailing list non d210 un'idea precisa della realt210 delle calcolatrici HP nel mondo, come hai appunto scritto tu in un msg. Questo NG invece 217 una vera miniera di risorseed a mio avviso 217 assurdo che qualcuno pensi solo di acquistare una HP49 senza conoscere l'inglese, come ho letto in alcuni messaggi di disperati utenti. L'inglese 217 un requisito base per chi si occupa di materie tecniche ed in generale per chi vuol uscire dall'orizzonte culturale nazionale: 217 pi235 facile (ed utile) che gli utenti italiani imparino l'inglese o che io (ma soprattutto tu, che sei davvero attivo sulla ML) insegnamo loro ad usare l'HP? Qui possiamo parlare delle stesse cose con molte pi235 persone, molte delle quali molto pi235 esperte di me; non mi ritengo sufficientemente esperto per offrire molto supporto, anche didattico, ai nuovi utenti italiani di HP4x! :o) (SNIP) As all of us! The docs on Reserved Names and on Object Types are still in alpha version. When I will reach a quite stable and finished version I'll post a message here for reviewing. Regards, Kickaha Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142252 (snip) I've read it -- it's *wonderful*. Thanks! Why don't you try posting to http://move.to/hpkb ? That might be a little faster and less weighty an operating than having people email you so you can email them back, etc -- at least for *me*, as I am only email-capable for an hour or so a week. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142290 dgeve: Have you talk about your project with W. Rautemberg? He said in a recent thread: So maybe his road and yours may cross (again: if I remember well Wolfgang gave you some hints for your MathFont project) Ciao, Marco Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142341 news:8fnbut4frtibuqlbbhebfgt4oqdcscl16p@4ax.com... to who X Xcatly !!! [VPN] X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142363 You are right! (It's starnge talking english with you! :o)) Wolfgang helped me with the Mathfont (BTW a new version is near to be released) and I've readed the post you refer. Anyway I guess Wolfgang knows about my project, and I think its intentions were to write a *manual* for the HP49 not a reference like mine. Actually I try to explain aspects of the HP49 in the various sections by hints, tips ad tricks and deeper descriptions than those you can find on the standard pocket-guide, but my document isn't structured for one who wants to learn (starting from zero or not). I'm now trying (when I'll find time) to learn SysRPL: I need a good book, not - only - a good reference. It's like saying people which never saw a programming language: here there's C++ and here is the reference with ALL the commands: learn the language. Just impossible, or at least uncomfortable! And last words about Wolfgang: I hope he doesn't steal my ideas!! :o) (OK Wolfgang, just joking, hope didn't offend you) Bye, see you in the ML or in the NG. news:s6deutouinf61mirlngp89t1n6afsagv1g@4ax.com... version. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142364 news:76ea4fd3.0111050958.21e1cc4d@posting.google.com... (snip) (snip) Thanx! Just hope to helped some other users. I didn't know I can also post to http://move.to/hpkb Anyway you can download from www.hpcalc.org from section hp49docsmisc Regards, Kickaha Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142211 Hello all! I have released my first ever contribution to the HP world. I have written a guide that is geared towards the college precalc class at my college but I would imagine a lot of people will find it useful for other things as well. It can be found here: (in HTML format) http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4894 Please let me know how you like it!! Micah Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142232 (snip) EVAL when in approx mode will work, if you don't mind such things as 2*3* being simplified to 6.* Curiously, why do you want this? (snip) I usually work in exact mode. Occasionally I find after I have entered a complicated algebraic in exact mode that it would be more useful to have it in approx. mode. However, I found that any conversion EVALuates things, and may obscure the meaning of the original expression. For example '(x+2)^3' becomes 'x^3.+6.*x^2.+12.*x+8.', which is not as obviously a cube as the original expression. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142306 Hi Virgil! The easiest way (to me at least) is to switch the calc in approx mode by pressing simoultaneously red-shift and ENTER and then pressing EVAL. This turns all exact numbers in the expression on stack level 1 to approx. numbers. Hope it helped, Nick. NNTP-Posting-Host: ai10.aula.eis.uva.es Mime-Version: 1.0 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142321 Virgil escribi227: If you don't need it in a program, you can just change to aprox mode, EDIT the expression, and accept (without editing, that is). If you need a program, I guess you can easily turn the expression into a list with the hacking tools of lib 256 (or was it 255, or 257?), look turn the list back into an expression with the same hacking tools. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142283 i惴 sorry if this has been aswered before but does anyone know how to calculate a limit with two variables in the 49??? Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142310 Hi there! Take a look at: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=cd9ca36b.0110110334.19bebc5f%4 0posting.google.com&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dlimit%2Btwo%2Bvariables%26hl%3D en%26group%3Dcomp.sys.hp48%26rnum%3D2%26selm%3Dcd9ca36b.0110110334.19bebc5f%2 540posting.google.com Greetings, Nick. P.S. Or should I say For those about to rock, I salute you? (ACDC ;-) ) Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142250 Thanks. I detached and deleted the libraries, however, the calc still exhibits the same behavior. It doesn't respond to hitting the ON button intially, I have to hit it many many times (30+) before I can even get a response. It then reboots, and if I turn it off and then on again quickly it works fine, however, if I let it sit for a moment, or don't hit the ON button exactly right, I have to go through the whole process again. I'm assuming I damaged it somehow. Is there anything else I should/could try? The calc is no longer under warranty (though I don't think the warranty would cover accidental damage on my part anyways) - is it still worth sending it to HP to get it fixed? No to all of the above. The only thing I had in memory was the libraries. The calc crashed before and I lost all data I had on it. Thanks again. Regards, Chad Johnson Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp48 Subject: Re: [49] Warm Rebooting Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:26:02 +0100 Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142305 Hi Chad, maybe there is really a hardware-defect (caused by dropping). There could be some keys not working right. You can check this by running the test-program (on-F4) an then choose the keyboard (Kbd1, Kbd2) -check-program. Also check the keybord-time. I assume you did not messed around with this feature but and get 1365. Maybe a program changed this. It could explain some of the behaviour of your calc (but not all). Good luck Regards Roman news:bd60e1d3.0111050929.6b0baf76@posting.google.com... X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142314 bd60e1d3.0111021437.3b22f11a@posting.google.com... Did you try ON-A-F at the same time, then NO ? Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142325 Hello ! Where in the memory can I find the adress of the graphical memory of the menu bar ? And then, is it possible to code in ML only the sysRPL instruction 'TURNMENUOFF' ? Thank you very much, HPThifu Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142328 hpThifu schreef: first row of the menu. If you only want to turn the menu off you will have to make the screen larger too. you can do both in one go by writing #3Fh to the LINECOUNT (addr 00128) -- This message was written with 100% recycled electrons Pivo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142332 Newsbeitrag news:3BE7EF00.46EBCA09@student.tnw.tudelft.nl... larger too. Hmm. But the actual ADISP GROB won't be resized by just this action alone... TURNMENUOFF resizes the ADISP GROB to 64 rows. TURNMENUON in fact only sets LINECOUNT to 56 rows, but when redisplaying the stack, a RECLAIMDISP (or alike) will always appear. The 'inverse' action for TURNMENUOFF, RECLAIMDISP, calls SHRINKVDISP which itself calls =MOVERSD, which moves everything between the top of the RPL return stack and the top of the actual block to be shrunken down in memory, and also updates all updateable pointers. So there happens much more than just saying the GROB has a specific LINECOUNT;-) These words apply for the HP-48. In the 49G, RECLAIMDISP does *not* work as expected! Detlef made a workaround for this 'feature' (See earlier posts here) Regards, Raymond Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142239 OK, I start scratching again. ;-) Yep, null, nema, nada, nichts, tipota! Here you got me! ;-) Message sent by SATURN ANIMAL with talking brain ? ;-) Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142307 ACC (Analog Clock and Paging Calendar) is just a small example of a useful 48/49-application in everyday life. It has autostart functionality. I have the pleasure to anounce that ACCeuro.zip is ready and presently available on my site ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/time/ This is a collection of ACC made in nine different languages (besides in English), each with an extra text-file in the corresponding language. Even in Esperanto :-) Thanks to Jurjen Bos, Heiko Arnemann, Eduardo Kalinowski and many others for theire contribution und collaboration. ACCeuro is just a very modest example for a peaceful cooperation of people from various countries, a kind of reaction against negative aspects of globalization (including terrorism). Have fun - Wolfgang PS. If anybody is willing to add a version in his language, their is time until next Thursday morning. Then I will send it to hpcalc.org. It's very easy now, no familiarity with SysRPL is assumend :-) Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142229 Someone wrote: Oops, the program is in part two. I won't apologise since I'm sure you've had a good time reviewing part one. :-) Regards, Bye. Jordi Hidalgo HPCC member #1046 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142330 Now that the future of HP is questionable, what should one do for the future? I own a HP48GX now and was planning on switching to a HP49G next year. Should I still do that? If I were to go with something other than HP, what would people recommend as far as a calculator that can come close to matching the 48GX's feature set? RPN is not a requirement for me (though nice), but I really know little about what's out there other than HP. Thanks! -- John Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142362 HP's future is of no concern. ACO's is hardly questionable anymore. Yes, if your reasons for switching ever held water at all. The only thing that has changed is this: ACO will no longer be producing updates to the ROM. *Some* of us have done the intelligent thing in wishing well to good people in ACO, and then pondering the new possibilities (like a public ROM; a community effort to fix it and extend it; more sophisticated ROM delivery (would you like the Normal Version or the Stripped Version or the Extended Version or the...?)). There is nothing close. A laptop with a lot of software and work won't be as portable or as cheap or as easy to use; a palm pilot won't be as easy to use and likely not as fast at certain things -- also not as inexpensive. Some here are contemplating The Next Great Calculator and if you want to wait for that, you should just keep your HP48GX -- it's still good game; some people use it instead of the 49G; it's the next-best calculator in terms of handling its own feature set. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142368 cleverjulian@hotmail.com (Julian Fondren) writes: That's what I meant to say. But HP has made some shall we say interesting moves of late anyway. But there are more things to think of as well. Some things about the 48/49 calculators are rather outdated already. With no hope of future improvements (right? or is someone other than ACO taking over this?), all that we'll see is a community that gradually loses people over time as calculators break, competitors release new versions, etc. I don't want to invest in something that has no future. It's like buying a NeXT after the news that the company was going to stop selling hardware. Well I have a Palm already. But it seems that the apps just aren't there. A lot of people (even the faq for this newsgroup) speak of the TI-92 having better symbolic math capabilities than the 48 or 49. While I'm not in a position to evaluate this statement, it does seem to be of some concern esp. if HP is halting future development on its product line. -- John NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-37-161-85.dialup.uni2.es Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142339 Hay alguna diferencia entre hacerlo para la hp48g+ y la hp48g? Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142240 Fully understandable, Adelfe Petro. Adelfos Nikos, who thinks perhaps he should go to a monastery a be a real brother after seeing the ACO being deleted. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142276 Who the hell is adelfos Petros? Niko eisai ellada twra? Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142309 Adelfos Petros is the greek translation of Veli-Pekka. :-) And no, I am not in Greece now, I am in Switzerland. What about you, megale? (megale=vocativ for you great person! :-) ) Greekkings (according to a proposal of adelfos Petros) Adelfos Nikos. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142371 Brother-Peter = Adelfos-Petros = Veli-Pekka = Bror-Peter Br237der-Peter = Fr217re-Pierre = Fratello...etc. Not a munk, but I'd prefer Heaven to Hell any day... [VPN] Madly in love with Jesus Insanely enthusiastic about HP calcs (58GX?) Grazy about my girl-friend Lunatic about the babel of languages (especially Greek) etc... news:cd9ca36b.0111060132.689368e9@posting.google.com... X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142241 Look where they are made... Indonesian made have a black screen, Singapore one have a blue screen Jean-Yves news:9s04bm$9o0$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com... From: spamless@Nil.nil Subject: Re: both excusing now, Aloysius and Donald pulled the angry structures in clean porter Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp48 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142280 This is a post of HipCrime's (or a HipClone). He is a spammer. This is not one of his spam runs, but a punishment run. He shares his code (for generating random Markov text, finding open Proxies and using them to post hundreds of thousands of messages to USENET, etc.) with his followers (HipClones). He considers himself to be the Lord High Ruler of Usenet and spammer king. Those who do not accept his rule are targetted for punishment. Among his favourite targets are NANAE (news.admin.net-abuse.usenet) and NANAE (news.admin.net-abuse.email). He used just to send hundreds of thousands of harassing posts to the groups. They block him based on the path in the header. His current method is to post hundreds of thousands of harassing messages to various groups with the Followup-To header set to the group he is currently targetting for punishment (currently NANAE). If you reply or post an irritated followup you will be doing his work. The From address is forged (often being that of a regular in one of his targetted groups). The Followup-To header will have your message redirected to flood the group he wants to punish (which will be unable to block messages based on the path since the followups come from all over). The current message is a Mime Attachment, HTML formatted, JavaScript message to write (in a new browser window) text pretending to format your hard drive. Two weeks ago the harassing messages were obscene JPGs of Bin Laden buggering Bush. Who knows what they will be two weeks from now? Maybe just plain random Markov text. The headers from his post are: From QtFPXc@ycygbi.org.ua Mon Nov 5 16:59:57 2001 Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp48 Subject: Re: both excusing now, Aloysius and Donald pulled the angry structures in clean porter Followup-To: news.admin.net-abuse.email MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=21745837324325507283461754256623375376543816462108 Lines: 41 Xref: nntp2.nac.net comp.sys.hp48:51482 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142311 Hi, Carsten! RESOROMP ROMPTR XXX YYY saves a whopping 5 bytes! Werner Huysegoms xwerner_huysegoms@freegates.bex (delete the leading and trailing x) Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142312 I should learn to read the full thread first before replying myself;-) Anyway, binding it with NULLLAMs (not always an option) allows you to use 2GETEVAL - and the speed decrease wrt 2GETLAM EVAL is negligible Werner Huysegoms xwerner_huysegoms@freegates.bex (delete the leading and trailing x) Distribution: world Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142315 Yes, I know! And using unnamed LAMs makes everything faster. This was just an *illustration* which I hoped people can read without having to look up entry points. But to be honest, I did not know about RESOROMP. That's what you get when making an entry reference by scanning and automatically converting other peoples documents instead of typing it all in yourself :-) Thanks! - Carsten Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142238 Yes, but only for numeric complex quantities, I think. Or am I wrong here? Greekkings, Nick. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142267 news:cd9ca36b.0110291538.11b6cd8b@posting.google.com... (SNIP) Hi Nick and Vincent. I have 1.19-6. * Cartesian Coord: doing EXPAND on a complex like '3+6*i' doesn't change anything * Polar/Spherical: doing EXPAND on the same complex returns '3*SQRT(5)*EXP(i*ATAN(2))' exactly how Nick (and me) like :o). Why with complex the CAS behaviour its not the same? More and more experience I take on the HP49G, more I think this machine is a sort of exceptions collection!! For problems which seem to be similar, the calc can give two differents solutions. I simply think it's not good symbolic EXPAND does something different from numeric EXPAND. And isn't '3+4*i' an algebraic as 'x+i*y'? I think I'll have a new headache in minutes :o(. Thanx to all who would reply to this. Bye, Kickaha Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142308 Hi Kickaha! I think the makers will say that this is a limitation of the CAS. Because for easy expressions (like x+i*y) it would be easy to convert them to polar, but for more complicated it would be difficult for the calc. Anyway, you can use the following small program to convert a complex quantity to polar: << DUP ABS SWAP ARG i * EXP * Greetings, Nick. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142219 On 2 Nov 2001 16:29:30 -0800, gtsiros@yahoo.com (George Tsiros) wrote: I disagree. It would be a significant improvement to have multitasking if you pick the right scheduling algorithm. The fact of the matter is that almost any computing device you use is *doing nothing* 90% of the time because it is waiting for the slow user. Unix type multilevel feedback queue algorithms can take advantage of this and give good responsiveness even if the system is heavily loaded. This is true if you include the stipulation that it only works for assembly programs and furthermore those assembly programs must conform to a strict api. While it is *theoretically* possible to do this with RPL programs it would require a major reworking of many parts of the OS. Anything that could cause race conditions (such as the memory management system) would have to rewritten or else the scheduler would have to check if the saved PC was in a critical section of code and block any other process that tried to access it concurrently. What I'm planning isn't. ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Remove the random permutation of HPRULES! from my e-mail address before replying. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142220 On 2 Nov 2001 02:41:09 -0800, gtsiros@yahoo.com (George Tsiros) wrote: Well you certainly got my attention. :) If anyone wants to know, yes George, Pagala, and I were originally involved in a project to wright a modular/microkernel multitasking OS for the 48 (and eventually everything else since it was supposed to be modular). It was going to jump to the next level where other OS's (such as ShellOS) had left off. But, alas, the fact that the burden of writing most of the core of the OS was placed on me and the change of my ambitions really kind of killed it before it had a chance to take its first breath. Originally, I was interested in writing a totally new OS for the pure pleasure of innovation or its aesthetic value but eventually it dawned on me that this would just turn out as yet another niche system that, while elegant, would fade into oblivion because of the lack of applications and support. ( If I could name every example of this it would fill a few pages :) What I'm interested in now is improving the built in 48/49 RPL OS. Yes, although you might think the 49 OS is optimized to the limit, the core has changed very little since the 48 (even SX). There is a lot of room for improvement that could potentially result in dramatic speed increases. One example of this would be a rewrite of the garbage collector and memory management system which, contrary to popular belief, would not necessitate a total rewrite of the rest of the OS. In fact, you could maintain backward compatibility for the most part. Even more surprising is that you could accomplish this without burning a new rom chip! :D (although on the 48(GX) you would need a ram card in port 1). This is just one of the many changes that I've had in mind. I have all the information I need to implement this now although with the recent announce of the possible GPL of the 48G/49 source code it would make it that much easier. :) Now, I'm not making any promises (lest I be accused of vaporware ;) but if it advances to the point where it is presentable then we/I plan on releasing everything under GPL so that the development can advance much more rapidly. As George said if anyone is interested in helping please contact him or I. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Remove the random permutation of HPRULES! from my e-mail address before replying. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142221 On 4 Nov 2001 04:35:20 -0800, Lz8B@free.fr (Stephane Cocquereaumont) wrote: Indeed I have been contemplating this idea for quite some time. Contrary to popular belief, it is actually possible to *emulate* the whole calc on a card ( running on an SA-110 say ) and interface with the internal Yorke peripherals while keeping the Saturn in low power mode most of the time. Me too. ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Remove the random permutation of HPRULES! from my e-mail address before replying. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142225 Jonathan Busby wrote: I totally agree with you, Jonathan. It is simply untrue that the Saturn-chip is a dead end, mainly because we cannot affort wasting the huge intellecual capital invested in the 48/49. The 49 OS is by no means optimized to the limit. I know a lot of ROM examples where sagacious programming would not only result in more speed but in saving a lot of ROM space. Improvement cannot be realized by two or three people only. If JYA is really willing to make 48 and 49 sources public, then there will be, IMHP, a completely new perspective for the future. - Wolfgang Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142342 news:3BE65E06.9E7D97BE@math.fu-berlin.de... Bullseye! THE 49G OS could still be optimized AND The Saturn XP (0.25u process & lower voltage) could be introduced ASAP. See my other posts on the Saturn XP issue. Veli-Pekka PS: Wolfgang, how du we arrange a meeting & when? Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142343 news:fdicutocq7e1i9p143qg1if2dbdtutbr1k@4ax.com... X How a dual CPU calculator with a dual LCD: the lower display installed upside down in order to form a double-sized display for the HP-58GX-duo VPN Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142346 news:8dicutcqace6up4itjrevgn59u0uhgn29v@4ax.com... X X The original ACO team had a new CG&MM in mind but the time constraint were already too tight so there you are: Even more RAM could be released by a new CG & MemoryManagemant design!!! This might re-locate Stack etc, but it's worth it. Whadda you say Jean-Yves! Time to tell more about the alternate design?? Veli-Pekka Nousiainen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142352 On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:48:59 +0200, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen I wanna play too! ;) PS: How about a meeting on IRC? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Remove the random permutation of HPRULES! from my e-mail address before replying. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142218 Carsten Dominik wrote: With the bug fixing, the HELP menu key works excellent. Now the proposed assignment on the CAT key works in just the same way as the whole CAT, but MUCH FASTER. help for the stack diagram) would work in just the same way: Only present when SDIAG really has its diagram in the data-base. There maybe a problem with the amount of data in SDIAG. Such a tester which should start running in the background after each interrupted move of the highlighter, is a first class asm challenge. - Wolfgang Distribution: world Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142226 This would be really nice and I have thought about this and even tried it. But I think this will be too slow, so that selection in the CHOOSE box would be slowed down too much. It is already slowed down by checking if Help is available. Fortunately Jean Yves implemented this in a way, that checking for Help is only done when the cursor keys do not repeat. That is why you can scroll extremely fast in the catalog, but when the cursor stops, lengthy checks for a help are possible. - Carsten Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142318 Carsten Dominik wrote: Would be nice to know how the HELP test works for choose boxes which are *not* the CAT choose box. Could you please explain this in a small example? Regards Wolfgang Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142284 Hi, HLDRAW seems to be a nice and fast program. Unfortunately, it has been made for the 49G only so far (AFAIK). Does anyone have interest in porting it to the HP-48? Or at least the Masd sources to standard SASM & RPLCOMP format? Thanks in advance. Regards, Raymond Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142353 On Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:18:01 +0100, Raymond Hellstern The latest HP tools will read MASD syntax ( courtesy of Jean-Yves Avenard ) as well as GNU/HP syntax. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Remove the random permutation of HPRULES! from my e-mail address before replying. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142373 news:podgutk54sfql5p95sdq5mrr3jupbus9qg@4ax.com... X X The very latest version is...? URL, please! [VPN] Reply-To: am@ostenfeld.dk NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.38.216.34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142248 Hey! :-) I know that if you simply put the DIR names in the CST-menu, then they will automatically appear as directories... But what if I want to execute several commands before entering the subdir, is it then still possible to make the menu tab look like a dir? thanx in advance, -- . Artur Meinild . . . . . : . 232lge R ud237r . . . ___________________________________________________ E搶ail : 6paq@messages.to : W搶ail : 6paq@go.to E新ite : 6paq.messages.to : W新ite : 6paq.go.to Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 19:16:18 +0100 Reply-To: t.rast@freesurf.ch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [de] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i586) X-Accept-Language: de-CH, de, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp48 Subject: Re: How can I make CST-tabs look like dirs? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142253 Artur Meinild wrote: (I've only tested this on my 49, but I assume it's the same on the 48.) Instead of a string label, put a GROB into the menu list. E.g. { { GROB ... TEST } } The MakeDirLabel entry converts a string into a directory style GROB. The addresses are #2E1EB (49G) and #3A3EC (48G), so to use it from UserRPL you'd do the following: 48G: #3A3ECh SYSEVAL 49G: #2E1EBh SYSEVAL Like most SysRPL entries, it does not have any error protection. DO NOT feed it anything else than a string. You've been warned. Thomas -- Thomas Rast If you cannot convince them, t.rast@iname.com confuse them. ICQ# 103670088 -- Harry S. Truman Reply-To: am@ostenfeld.dk NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.38.216.34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142258 thanx Thomas! However, I've got a better idea, I want to draw the labels myself... I've tried storing a 21x8 pixel grob, and putting it in the menu list, like this: { { GROB1 COMMAND1 } { GROB2 COMMAND2 } } but it's not working, it just displays the name GROB1 in the menuline... any help? thanx again, Artur Thomas Rast wrote: -- . Artur Meinild . . . . . : . 232lge R ud237r . . . ___________________________________________________ E搶ail : 6paq@messages.to : W搶ail : 6paq@go.to E新ite : 6paq.messages.to : W新ite : 6paq.go.to Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142264 Artur Meinild schreef: put the grob *itself* in the menu list, instead of a varaible name -- This message was written with 100% recycled electrons Pivo Reply-To: am@ostenfeld.dk NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.38.216.34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142265 ok... makes sense, but it unfortunately yields the stupid question of the day: How is *that* done? I really hope you're not losing your patience yet! :-) thanx in advance, Artur Peter Geelhoed wrote: -- . Artur Meinild . . . . . : . 232lge R ud237r . . . ___________________________________________________ E搶ail : 6paq@messages.to : W搶ail : 6paq@go.to E新ite : 6paq.messages.to : W新ite : 6paq.go.to Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142272 Artur Meinild schreef: CONGRATULATIONS! You have won today's jackpot!!! :-) step-by-step mode on RPL on 1. make the grob a) MyDirLabel b) #3A3ECh SYSEVAL (on 48 only) c) leave on stack 2. put the command on the stack b) leave on stack 3. make a list 4. repeat for other keys a) goto 1 5. make one big list and there it is send click, netscape close, out log wooops, forgot to turn step-by-step and RPN off :-) -- This message was written with 100% recycled electrons Pivo Reply-To: am@ostenfeld.dk NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.38.216.34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142277 I see! :-) So when the list is finished, you can't edit it like any other menu list.. and edit them one by one! correct? I've just tested it, and this is too cool! HP RULES! :-D Thanx - Artur Peter Geelhoed wrote: -- . Artur Meinild . . . . . : . 232lge R ud237r . . . ___________________________________________________ E搶ail : 6paq@messages.to : W搶ail : 6paq@go.to E新ite : 6paq.messages.to : W新ite : 6paq.go.to Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 22:45:22 +0100 Reply-To: t.rast@freesurf.ch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [de] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i586) X-Accept-Language: de-CH, de, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp48 Subject: Re: How can I make CST-tabs look like dirs? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142278 Artur Meinild wrote: Suppose you have a variable containing your current menu. Recall it. On your stack you now have something like 1: { { NAME CMD1 } {HELLO CMD2} } obtain this: 3: { NAME CMD1 } 2: { HELLO CMD2 } 1: 2. Now do 3 ROLL (or use the interactive stack) to get the first list down 5: { HELLO CMD2 } 4: 2. 3: CMD1 2: 2. 1: NAME Here MakeDirLabel comes in: Do #3A3ECh SYSEVAL (49G: #2E1EBh SYSEVAL). The NAME turns into the label you want. Now you have to reassemble the 3: { HELLO CMD2 } 2: 2. 1: { GROB CMD1 } Note that, as Pivo pointed out, GROB is a graphical object, not 'GROB' obtain 1: { { GROB CMD1 } { HELLO CMD2 } } Store this to a variable. You can also test it by doing DUP TMENU - DUP so you don't lose all your hard work - without overwriting your CST. Phew. I hope that helps... Do you think I should consider writing UserRPL docs? ;-) Thomas -- Thomas Rast If you cannot convince them, t.rast@iname.com confuse them. ICQ# 103670088 -- Harry S. Truman Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142233 (snip) (snip) Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142234 RE my unfortunate other reply on this thread, I mean of course {PICT STO {#0 #0}PVIEW}. X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142215 Hello Does anyone know of a newsgroup or site that gets into the hp 12c? thanks noone Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142231 noone wrote: In this newsgroup you'll find some postings relative to the HP-12C, from time to time. But perhaps the most relevant site is: http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/forum.cgi Here are more links: http://www.hpcc.org/links.html I recommend you the September/October issue of Datafile: http://www.hpcc.org/datafile.html#V20N5 It's especially dedicated to the HP-12C. It will surprise you! Regards, Bye. Jordi Hidalgo HPCC member #1046 johil@tv3mail.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 203-167-156-33.dialup.clear.net.nz X-Original-Trace: 5 Nov 2001 21:26:47 +1300, 203-167-156-33.dialup.clear.net.nz Organization: CLEAR Net New Zealand http://www.clear.net.nz - Complaints abuse@clear.net.nz Lines: 18 X-GC-Trace: gv1-kNCNQ0SxhV0IPFSPJnPGVgUp8mIP+RbiPAG0qSiLofqA9Fi0lM= Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142222 Some months ago i wrote a little program for PalmOS to simulate what an HP 48 emulator would look like. It's just an integer RPN calculator, but it has all the buttons and the same display etc. I've even made it into an Emu48 skin (and a 38G skin as well). You can check it out at Later... Jon jon AT purvis DOT co DOT nz Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142230 news:this-B993C4.21185305112001@news.clear.net.nz: Looks pretty good Jon... :-) Thanks. Maybe one of these days, there will be a HP49 emulator.. But thanks to you, I'm keeping the Palm m505 rather than returning it for a PPC2002! :-) Cheers, Vince X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 203-167-156-88.dialup.clear.net.nz X-Original-Trace: 6 Nov 2001 20:51:53 +1300, 203-167-156-88.dialup.clear.net.nz Organization: CLEAR Net New Zealand http://www.clear.net.nz - Complaints abuse@clear.net.nz Lines: 26 X-GC-Trace: gv1-K7YDGYtwOV7JjrwdTCVcHCrF+UB5FySIGBhzOVS95NaWBONoGs= Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142301 If i've stopped one person from using PPC2002, then it was all worthwhile. ;) Would you be interested in a floating-point RPN calculator in that layout? I was thinking of making an HP-45 simulator for PalmOS (since i can't find an RPN calculator i really like), but i can do one in the Tofu48 layout if people think that would be more useful/fun? I might even do Tofu38 when i feel like writing an algebraic parser. :) Later... Jon jon AT purvis DOT co DOT nz Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142303 news:this-A23E33.20512206112001@news.clear.net.nz: Not too sure.... Something with a emu48 layout would be cool ;) Cheers, Vince Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142244 Years ago, HP meant High Price. However, while paying their High Price for a product, one could be assured that one was buying quality. Unfortunately, HP has lost their vision. Like many companies, they are on a quest for the Holy Grail, which is profits, no matter what the cost. Although many of us have denigrated TI's products, website, etc., at least their calculator division is not in the process of disbanding and throwing there highly skilled programmers and engineers out into the street. I, for one, am more than disenchanted with HP's cavalier attitude relative to their formally valued customers. Because of this, I will most likely not purchase another HP product. For those of you who are predisposed to masochism, continue purchasing HP products and you will not be disappointed. To those programmers and engineers who have endeavored to make the HP 49 a quality calculator, I offer my thanks. To HP, I offer the well-known Bronx cheer. Just my $0.02 Johnet123 NNTP-Posting-Host: gw53-01-p236.ec.saix.net Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142260 Well Said John, I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the many HP engineers who brought us excellent products like the HP-41, HP-42, HP-48. And although I do not consider the HP49 a high quality (hardware) product I enjoy using it and would like to thank the ACO team and everyone who contributed for their efforts. The great pity is that the expertise and development effort that went into the HP49 should have gone into a new machine with a new, faster CPU and modern hardware, not an outdated, slow CPU. I must also support you in that I will also probably never buy a HP product, or anything associated with HP again, unless they as a company go to great lengths to convince me that they can supply anything except a high-priced mediocre quality product. In future I will prefer to buy a mediocre quality product from one of HP's competitors at a low price. Perhaps this user group should consider applying their efforts into developing software for TI's calculators that would turn them into a decent RPN calculator. After all, I believe their CPU's are faster (I am no expert on TI so I apologise if I am wrong on this one!) and I could live with less memory on the calc. Who knows, if the guys at TI see that they are attracting a more serious user group they might actually develop something decent for us. The point I am trying to make is that I do not think anyone in this user group has any great loyalty towards HP. What I do not like is that this group will continue developing great software for HP products and HP will sit like a parasite making money selling HP-49's while someone else does the development work for free. (That is assuming they are not going to simply discontinue the HP48 and HP49 because they are'nt profitable enough) And while HP could care less about one or two people who say they will not buy HP products anymore, I am also an engineer, and as such frequently have to make decisions on the purchasing of various items of equipment, and I must admit what we have seen recently from HP in the line of test gear and such like has also failed to impress. There are several European and Japanese companies out there who are offering well designed high quality products, so one does not really miss HP. (In fact when our 15 year old HP logic state analyser eventually breaks there will be no more HP equipment in a lab where HP once reigned supreme.) Once again thanks to all the dedicated and capable people who brought us the great HP products through the years. I will continue using my HP calculators for as long as they work and hope that by then someone else will have realised that there is a need for a powerful, programmable calculator in the world, and that they have developed and marketed such a machine. Maby Jean Yves wants to build a calculator, I wonder ..... ;-) regards Andre Claassens news:770ed58b.0111050731.2946a59@posting.google.com... Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142262 This is not news =) At least we managed to escape with a number of really good calculators. (snip) NNTP-Posting-Host: matdial25.mtangel.net Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142293 news:9s6s1b$qrl$1@ctb-nnrp1.saix.net... [snip] ... the -- Ditto. -- the -- geared towards engineers and working professionals, not high school students and plain nerds -- G.S. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142298 Lars Frederiksen has programmed RPN for the 68k platform quite a while back: http://www.perez-franco.com/symbulator/download/rpn.html Bhuvanesh. NNTP-Posting-Host: van132574-1.gw.connect.com.au Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142214 The pause is the HP49 doing garbage collection on the memory. Later ROM's have vastly improved the 49's garbage collections so that it's rarely noticable. I suspect you have an early ROM, recommend you update to 1.19-6 at least. news:20011104.200011.555996658.7083@iname.com... Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142347 news:9s54oq$rlp$1@merki.connect.com.au... *vastly improved* Whad to you mumble-bumble ?!?!?! Maybe the clock side-effects are removed (thanks JYA :) BUT it's still much too slow!! [VPN] Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142213 I just got 49g and I can't find how to input complex n. in rpn mode, in 48 it use to be: bracket; real; space; complex; What program can I use to make a program for 49g on my PC and where can I get it. I downloaded connectivity kit from HP site but there is no communication, the instructions deal only comm. between 49 or 48. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks tak charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142217 You do exactly the same as on the '48. Regards Steen Thanks Steen, I was using ( i ) all the time :-). Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142224 Hello all, After these days of sadness, thinking about the present and future of handheld mathematical devices, I have made my own thoughts. With ACO we could dream with a wake up from HP after years, after now, we are at the same point that 3 or 4 years ago. After all, nothing has changed much (despite the new hp49, a great change). What will happen now? Ok, probably calculators as we know nowdays aren't a great tool for engineers, scientifics,.. They have great lacks like speed, screen capabilities, memory,.. So, is there any other option? Ok, handheld pc's market is growing fast and the prices are becoming lower everyday.. Perhaps good software and better math interfaces for them would make the rest. Perhaps HP has caught the idea, and that's the reason of the new keyboard developed by them: http://www.hp.com/jornada/products/560/acc_pocket_kbd.html http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=721b37828954367d932076cfdc 94275c&threadid=31508&highlight=hp+keyboard http://discussion.brighthand.com/attachment.php?s=721b37828954367d932076cfdc 94275c&postid=188056 http://www.cepolis.com/noticias/graficos/02102001hpkeymax.jpg And after seeing these photos.. do you remember Xpander looks? Yes, these keyboards are very similar to hp49/40 shape... Yes, I am agree that HP has made a mistake with JYA, CdB, Gerald and all the people that could make it better, but I think they have leave an open door for soft development for his PDA world. We hope to have a PocketPC version of Bernard Parisse's Xcas/Giac soon, it could be a begining... who knows the end of the story... Calculators were a great engineer tool when computer couldn't do the calculus job they do. Nowdays, calcs are beaten for laptops and handhelds in capabilities, is a question of time that the soft for this kind of machine make calculators a simple learning tool for school and university. Probably calculators as engineer tools have to be redefined.. and perhaps Steen has made a great description of what the future should looks like.. read his posts.. Anyway, I love my hp machines (20s, 32sii, 48g, 40g, 49g and jornada525). And I love this comunnity, and all the people that share his knowledge here are aunthentic jedi masters.. MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU... J.Manrique CdU de la ETSIG PS: Today is the date for Episode II - Atack of the clons Teaser Trailer.. I think I would be very busy today :-))) Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142322 Hi J.Manrique! Which somehow seems to me like the problem is if the company *wants* to make a product or not. I mean, when the ACO is able to get so much out of such vintage hardware, then shouldn't we assume that making the super calc out of modern hardware is possible and perhaps even easier? Well, for me they are still great tools, especially the programmables. The old keystroke programing is easy and quick. And not to speak about the huge laptops that you have to carry otherwise. There are tons of software for any useful (and unuseful) needs. But good general math software? How many programs are there? Three or four? And what does it cost to buy them and some laptop where they can run? Yep, they are. Perhaps not all is lost, after all. But I have the feeling that companies want us to use laptops, so they will not make any calculators. Hmmm, I have a built-in antipathy against PDAs. For me they are some kind of joke that helps one keeping track of the diary. So to say, to look important. perhaps this is what I hate most. It is no more important to take the sine of some angle, but it is important to organize all the meetings, of which 95% are just needless. But for me as a user it would be much easier to buy a calc for my needs. No installations, no lengthy configurations, no PocketPC or other device that just doesn't want to run a program. I wouldn't say that they can be beaten so easily in math matters. Many reasons for that. To me it is better to press a single button and get the square of a number, even if the calc needs some microseconds more. I did read his posts. Well, it seems I am very old fashioned, but I still would like to see a new calculator from HP. Calculator, not only software running on some other device. I also love my machines and this community. And I will always ask people with PDA's in their hands, if their slappy devices can solve a simple DEQ. ;-) Oh, the force is with me and with us all, but no more with HP, I guess. I'll would rather have A.I. ;-) (If it only could be possible to see this made by Kubrick.) Greetings, Nick. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142329 I am completly agree about how easy and quick is to program these machines. But the speed and display options, being great for learning, aren't not so good for diary work. Ok, I use my hp48 everyday at work.. ok, better said, i used to use my hp48 more than nowdays.. I prefer using my PDA, and I have emu48 in it for hard calculus.. Agree again, but I want to mention is the posibility of having that great math software under GPL license. A PocketPC nowdays can be buyed near the price of a hp49, and you can install emu48 in it (runnig two times faster than real hp49). Ok, imagine a GPL soft developed for PocketPC (or linux handheld).. At similar price you would get much more power.. ;-))) Nowdays PDA world is focus in bussiness world, everyone would like PowerPoint, Acces in his PDA.. It's time to show that scientifics and mostly engineers could give benefits to PDA world, if these machines had the needed soft.. Ok, I would like a Handheld with Advanced Math installed.. Which is the diference? Ok, PDA can have buttoned interface, like emu48. But, what a calculator is? It's soft running in a special O.S. in a device developed with special layout for calculus.. Ok, I can with emu48. And I haven't tried with GPari (GP-Pari special port to WinCE) or Maxima (Maxima port to WinCE): http://www.rainer-keuchel.de/wince/gpari.html http://www.rainer-keuchel.de/wince/emacs-wince.html HP has been touched by the dark side :-) Yes, I am sure it would be diferent.. Cheers, J.Manrique CdU de la ETSIG X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142269 news:9rqupf$6rr$1@aspen.sucs.soton.ac.uk... Did you intend more than any other thing on earth or more than any other aspect it can have? :o) Kickaha Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142251 OK, I keep running into this. What's with all the libraries et cetera on hpcalc.org that claim to be, say, English, when they are actually Spanish or French or something? It's really annoying. Could all these mistakes be *accidental*? Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142378 To use recursive descent compilers and EBNF syntax try a compiler- version is 1.51 ???. Excellent IMHO. Maybe the simplest way to go if you want to built your own translator. There are examples in using Coco/R for building various tools including translators and assemblers. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142304 hello, what if you had everything you want? the PC-calculator imagine a PC sized a calculator 1-1/2 size of HP49 (with hp48 keys) with a grayscale display. the OS linux the CPU crusoe (if possible all ram memory. no hard-drive, like the tablet PC) it would be the new type of toy that every programmer would wish he/she had. get rid of all multimedia junk, and leave the important stuff. it could be done with todays tech. if they got rid of the junk here... http://www.fujitsupc.com/www/products_notebooks.shtml?products/notebooks/p_s eries Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142281 Hi all, Earlier I had mentioned that it was likely that the program PowerPlot for the HP48 would be ported to the HP49. Due to recent events, I am sorry to report that this has changed, and there are currently no plans to port PowerPlot to the HP49. However, should anyone be interested, my offer still stands. If you are serious about a port, please email me and I will provide as much material as I can to aid you. Regards, Aaron X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142316 3BE70ECE.D838E82A@utdallas.edu... Hello, Aaron ! We in france are setting up an HP-Party this week-end. Can you send me the sources of PowerPlot in order to port it to the HP49 and maybe the HP39/40 ? yoanndesir@yahoo.com Bye, Yoann. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142360 Hi Yoann, I tried to reply to you, but it seems your mail account is over quota... do you have another address? -- Aaron Yoann D216sir wrote: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-377.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142227 Does anyone know of a computer software editor to use to write programs for the HP48 on a computer to later be downloaded to the HP48 ? The absolute least would be one that you can enter the hex code equivalent of hp code, but preferably one that recognizes hp commands and automatically enters the correct numerical equivalent. And what would be fantastic is there would be available for purchase an emulator debugger that you could actually test your prgms right on the computer the way there are for the TI-83 calcs. Not interested in Asm programming of any of those 'ROM flash scenarios, just the straight shell interpreted language. NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.198.168.154 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142319 Lo people ! I have saved variables in a folder, when i see them in the softmenu they are not organised (ordered) the way i would like them to be .... Just a little problem ... Got the same on hp48 and 49 Matthias Reply-To: am@ostenfeld.dk NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.38.216.34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142324 Hi! you can order the variables with the command ORDER ! :-) For the HP 48, put the variable names in a list in the desired order, and press: [<-|][VAR][E][F] (the commands DIR and ORDER) and voila! regards, Artur M. 'Anarchy' Lopez wrote: -- . Artur Meinild . . . . . : . 232lge R ud237r . . . ___________________________________________________ E搶ail : 6paq@messages.to : W搶ail : 6paq@go.to E新ite : 6paq.messages.to : W新ite : 6paq.go.to NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.198.168.154 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142345 thx ! 3BE7DF8B.E1B45BC6@messages.to... Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142380 SSchmidt@nospam.dk says... I found that if I turned off many of the default simplication flag settings, symbolic matrix operations like inverse were significantly increased in speed. Sorry I don't have the HP49G handy or I would tell you the settings I am using. Maybe someone could do a little experiment to see which flag settings are optimal for matrix inverse, etc. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142340 news:t2qfutg4rnug54lso81ku8o0gt0s1ge6m1@4ax.com... I agree with full hearth ! of it. How about for the flash programmable 49G ??? we Smaller process, lower voltage same Saturn as Saturn XP could FPGA is for the testing phase. ASIC is the final stage. FPGA would be too power hungry (~E2 * ASIC) Yes, the commercial companies at: http://www.free-ip.com/links.htm can transform the FPGA into the ASIC that we need: the Saturn XP I disagree here! Even with ultra-low-power FPGA, you can go down E1 / by implementing the CPU as an ASIC. X For the prototypes yes, ASIC for the finalized product. We could easily go for 8-bit bus, but I would still introduce the first new model as is with only a down-sized process & lower voltage using the modern low-cost hi-tec (compared to the Saturn) 32-bit address space is certainly a big step forward (as a 8-bit or 16-bit or evena 32-bit data-bus) but I would expect the first Saturn XP to be only a modernized basic Saturn. This I would call the Jupiter CPU and the design could start the same time as the case&keyboard design of the HP-58G(with the Saturn XP) and release later as, say HP-98LX (a vertical model in a 200KX case) YES !!! -------- Veli-Pekka Nousiainen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142351 On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 19:41:03 +0200, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen Ignore the GX in that thread. It would be compatible with the 49. :) I never said that an FPGA would be more efficient or consume less power than an ASIC. Anyone knows that's not true. :D I'm just saying that it wouldn't be inefficient or cost loads of money. By the way, I think the Xilinx people could give you a good talking to. ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Remove the random permutation of HPRULES! from my e-mail address before replying. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Remove the UH!ESPRL from my e-mail address before replying. X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142365 news:qzuofn3ph1x.fsf@sand.science.uva.nl... I agree. Either hpcalc.org and NG Kickaha X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142235 Hi Colin.. news:3BE4D634.9066E6FA@iinet.net.au... The matrix editor can only handle numerical matrices. However, you can create a symbolic matrix on the HOME screen like [ S1 , S2 ] You can use the CAS matrices commands with symbolic matrices, it just has to be done in the HOME screen. The commands are the same as with the HP49 Jean-Yves NNTP-Posting-Host: schubert.ujf-grenoble.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142242 Colin Croft a 216crit : I got an email about this problem and this is approximately my answer. You can manipulate symbolic matrices on the 40 from HOME, but that's a little bit tricky. The best is to use list of lists to represent matrices (like on the 48), you can enter lists as elements of a list in the list editor. Then you must use S1-S5 to represent parameters. I have done all I could so that the CAS matrix commands understand list of lists as symbolic matrices, for example rref, JORDAN, ... (see the 49G CAS instructions) will accept L1 as argument if L1 is a list of lists. Note that you can also use AXQ on a numeric matrix to get exact answer and step-by-step for matrix inversion but that does not solve the problem of matrices with parameters. For solving linear system, the alternative is to enter the EQW/CAS and use LINSOLVE with AND to separate equations and variables. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142334 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Parisse Bernard wrote: (snip) Thanks. In fact I had finally done what I should have done at the start and RTFM! I found in there a bit about using S1, S2 etc in a matrix stored in a list and so tried that. Success. For example, storing {[[1,S1],[S1+3,5]]} in L1 you can then use L1-1 to invert it in the HOME view (as you say). Very neat. Fascinating things lists, the way you can store so many things in them. Totally underutilised on the 38/39/40G. Not even mentioned in the manuals and not something you'd be aware of unless you are exposed to a 48/49. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142223 In the god old days, you could have the HP IR printer trace every number you enterd on the stack without doing a print command. How do I accomplish this with a HP48G? Torstein Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142245 Visit the thread: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=366a1a74.3959366%40news.wizvax .net&rnum=6&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dtrace%2Bmode%26hl%3Den%26group%3Dcomp.sys.hp48 %26rnum%3D6%26selm%3D366a1a74.3959366%2540news.wizvax.net Greetings, Nick. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142331 Hello fellows, For the ones who don't know who i am, i've worked on the ShellOS project, which is a multitasking operating system for HP48GX. (available on http://www.hpcalc.org) Sorry for my bad english, I am French and don't practice it very often. Some years ago, (during HP49G software developement) I've submitted an idea to ACO via Jean Tavenas (responsible for european calculator marketting), and a friend (Philippe Dedieu, co-developer of ShellOS) also encountered the woman responsible for ACO. (forgotten her name) Here was the idea: most people just want a faster HP48, screen, keyboard and housing were acceptable, but some CPU time consuming operations are not possible with the current hardware. It is technically possible to develop an expansion card that gives more power to our HP48GX. We just need a fast and cheap processor, like the ones provided by Scenix (now known as Ubicom), they have 100MIPS 8Bit micro-controllers, integrating a small amount of RAM and some kilobytes of FLASH ROM, their cost is around 5$ and they are available as 18 or 24 pin package (easy PCB design). Communication between the good old Saturn and the micro-controller can be done via a shared RAM on the expansion card, however, this is the most difficult part of the design. We can implement some fast math and graphics routines in the FLASH ROM of our expansion card, and may use them only when necessary, this enable us to save battery by using the standby mode of the micro-controller. The main advantage of this design is that we can reuse existing hardware and most of the software... Other advantages are : - low cost - low power consomption (I think that a big advantage of the Saturn over those fancy 133Mhz 32bits processors found on PDA remain his very low power consumption) - low development cost I was very enthusiast at the time of this idea, but ACO says that they have already started developing new calculators, so they never paid any attention to my modest idea. Sadly it's now too late, HP48GX are no more available, at least in France. Regards, Stephane Cocquereaumont Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142333 Hi Stephane, news:1e2c6ff4.0111060632.5580155f@posting.google.com... I don't think it's too late, since there were many many HP-48's sold in the last decade. So even if they won't be produced any longer, there are enough HP-48 hardware units around the world to make such an interesting extension! Regards, Raymond BTW: What happened to the ShellOS? Is there an SDK? Are the sources available? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142344 Stephane Cocquereaumont wrote: Why you don't release SHELL OS source as GPL? Some guys may be interested an whit some internal documentation there can be new release and improvement and new programs. I think that GPL and open source is a chance for the HP4x. This is true also for me ;) Bye, Mario Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142350 Indeed I have had this exact same idea. It is my opinion though that an 8-bit microcontroller will just not cut it for Saturn emulation if you want orders of magnitude speed-ups. The single fact that the saturn has 64-bit registers of which any nibble aligned prefix can be accessed as well as some other miscellaneous fields makes it hard to emulate efficiently. This is ignoring all it's other idiosyncrasies such as nibble aligned variable length opcodes etc. I did some amount of research into what processor I would use and came to the conclusion that the ARM family (specifically StrongArm) would offer the best bang for your buck. Not only can they run at relatively high speeds (133MHz) while consuming little power ( Intel claims they have the best MIPS/Watt. The SA-110 gets around 115 MIPS at 100 Mhz while consuming about 110 mW at 1.65 V. ) but the architecture fits saturn emulation like a glove. Specifically the fact that you have 16 (well 15 if you ignore the PC) 32-bit GPR's, single cycle bit manipulation and arithmetic-logic instructions and most importantly a single cycle barrel shifter which can operate on instruction operands without incurring any cycle penalties (ie. you get it for free ). This is excellent for the emulation of the Saturn's nonstandard and convoluted (well compared to modern 32-bit processors ;) nibble based architecture. Whatever processor you use, here is how I imagine one would accomplish the interfacing with the Yorke. Firstly, the Yorke would only be used for Interrupt relaying and grabbing data from or writing data to the hardware registers. Most of the time it would be in SHUTDN mode. To request a transaction from the Yorke hardware regs the off board processor (OBP) ( probably assisted by a low power CPLD or some other logic as I don't think the OBP alone could do what I'm about to describe on its own while concurrently executing something. ) would have to raise an MP interrupt through the port 1 card detect pad by pulling it low. ( make sure though that bits 2 and 3 of the card detect control register are cleared and TIMER2 is enabled. ). When this happens the interrupt routine on the Yorke would jump to a fixed address *inside* the address range of port 1. At this point the Yorke would start executing the needed transaction indicated by Saturn opcodes driven onto the card data bus by the OBP. This is to achieve maximum performance. Eventually the OBP would deliver a RTI instruction and the Yorke would revert back into is low power SHUTDN loop starting the process over. Note that since reads and writes to the hardware regs usually happen in rapid succession the OBP isn't limited to providing only one transaction, they could be queued up and run in the background - true multiprocessing :). ( although if the program causing the transactions was to manipulate the requested data before it was available then the OBP would have to block. ) Now on to the software side. Fast hardware isn't going to do us any good if the emulation sucks :D. There are much better emulation methods than what EMU48 and company provide although you can't blame EMU48 because it was designed for portability, generality and functionality - it wasn't designed to run on a wimpy microntroller. A start would be to translate the Saturn instructions into threaded interpretive code ( like sys-rpl ) instead of reinterpreting them every time they're encountered. This would of course be complicated by the fact that the Saturn code would possibly be self modifying so you'd have to provide some way to divide the instructions you've cached up into blocks and invalidate the blocks if the Saturn land code is modified or someone jumps to a place that's not on an instruction boundary in one of the blocks. An even faster and more advanced approach would be to use the type of emulation that the Java Hotspot VM uses. In this scheme you would keep track of how many times portions of code in Saturn land have been executed and translate them into *native* OBP machine code when the execution count hits a certain threshold. This is much more complicated then the previous approach but potentially allows HUGE speed-ups. As I mentioned before, it is complicated even further by the fact that the Saturn code can be self modifying ( The JVM has it easy since this isn't allowed in that case ;). Lastly, since we're designing for one platform we might as well utilize machine idioms to gain performance. For example, one could use the virtual memory mechanism of the OBP ( if it has one ) to help speed up the emulation of the Yorke memory controllers. Personally, I don't know what would be worse : designing a new saturn from scratch on an FPGA or this approach ;). Certainly this approach would potentially offer greater performance and less power consumption plus you would get a C compiler for free. Also, it would provide a migration path to the OBP. You could redefine unused object prologs to be OBP machine code objects so that people could seamlessly execute native code in the same environment as Saturn code. Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself ( not like I haven't already ;). It will be exciting to see what this community can come up with. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Remove the random permutation of HPRULES! from my e-mail address before replying. On 6 Nov 2001 06:32:39 -0800, shell3@caramail.com (Stephane Cocquereaumont) wrote: Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142375 Jonathan Busby wrote: Not *exactly* the same idea ;) I don't want to emulate Saturn, but simply add a kind of custom hardware in order to execute time comsuming operations, when needed. (doing math, graphics, compression, whatever) I think that most of the time the good ol'Saturn is sufficient. Regards, Stephane Cocquereaumont charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142377 Hi Jonathan! If you think the SA-110 fits the Saturn like a glove, why do you have that much against XScale? XScale performs much better, is compatible with ARM, uses less power, and cost roughly the same. SA-110 @ 175 MHz: 200 MIPS, 300 mW SA-110 @ 233 MHz: 350MIPS, 950 mW XScale @ 50 MHz: 50 MIPS, 10 mW XScale @ 150 MHz: 200 MIPS, 50 mW XScale @ 400 MHz: 500 MIPS, 150 mW XScale @ 600 MHz: 750 MIPS, 400 mW XScale @ 800 MHz: 1000 MIPS, 900 mW XScale @ 1000 MHz: 1250 MIPS, 1600 mW Everything that applies to the StrongArm SA-110 applies to the XScale, and you get much more than that. Regards Steen Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142379 Mario Moro wrote in message : Here is a short story of what happened to the ShellOS sources (almost incredible) : 2 years ago, hard drive big cr4sh, all the partitions junked, all the sources lost (not only ShellOS, but also other projects). At that time I was planning a very mature and stable release, very sad. About 2 months later I managed to retrieve a CD containing 1 year old sources burned by a friend, but I was not really in the mood to work on it. About 1 year later, I've worked intensively during 5 weeks, doing major reworks based on the old sources and on new ideas. I was about to do a realease when !&$235#%* bastards from Grenoble (France) stolen my travel bag, my hard drive was in it. Since I've never worked anymore on ShellOS. Today I've retrieved again the old sources, I am doing minor reworks in order to release them in Public Domain. I hope to do this soon. Regards, Stephane Cocquereaumont X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142313 What you describe is the Sirc32 virus. It infected a lot of computers recently. NNTP-Posting-Host: gw53-01-p236.ec.saix.net Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142266 I agree with Steen, It does not really matter what HP does, the HP49 is outdated and slow. What the guys at ACO did was amazing, but no amount of genius can keep squeezing more performance from an outdated hardware platform. Face facts guys, it (the HP49) is not going to get better and eventually the majority of people will loose interest and move onto something better. regards Andre Claassens news:sLiF7.4881$RM3.434988@news000.worldonline.dk... aim ;-) the (ACO) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142289 Steen Schmidt wrote: AMEN. The root of the problem can be probably traced back to the point of time, when couple years ago someone at HP made educated, executive decision (may be even made by a team of highly paid experts) during some Decision Making Workshop Meeting. The outcome of such must have been that the customer will accept ancient hardware packaged around hype of most advanced in the world advertisement and HP will save money and software expertise - read compatibility with old 28/48 series. I can even envision software developers and engineers actively cheering such effort as typically it is human nature to defend one's own work and tend to miss signs of product deterioration. Also most people involved were by such move kept in the comfort zone of the hardware/software they were working and familiar for years. Such makes those people automatically experts over anybody brought to the program later, and it also saves them from rewriting simple and boring parts of OS into the new platform. This is also human nature to support such comfort zones. It is managment responsibility to force new ideas and solutions over resistnat corporate culture. Clearly HP lost it's vision in this case in the worst possible time, when it started to have recognizable competition in the field. The idea of saving money by pushing repackaged hardware junk was possible at the time of HP 48GX model when Saturn was already outdated but had no competition whatsoever. But such decision at the time when even such weak competitior as TI is capable to built much more advanced machine in the same price brackets was simply a nail to the coffin of the entire HP advanced calculator enterprise as anybody can clerly see now, and I stated here at the time when the first info about HP49 was available on this discussion group. Don't think I'm happy. I wish, I was wrong, but it is not the case. I don't blame anybody personally simply because I don't know who actually made such stupid decisions years ago. Probably nobody admits today as the old saying says Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan. Dead hardware can not be reanimated even by heroic effort of software developers. At some point of time managment of the company has to face a decision, that no matter how good their emplyees are in squeezing every bit of performance from the old junk, the buil in performance limits will simply render their effort just a waste of money and might kill the entire enterprise with total loss of expertise, market etc. when the intention of the experts was clearly the opposite. It is additionally sad, that HP was such a wimp, when one considers, how relatively bad is the winning package of TI 89/92 calculators. The whole above few points are based on my own Dilbert's experience with the corporation I'm working for, when I'm also sometimes the victim of comfort zone resitance to improvement. When the competition is around and the progress in the area is massive it is simply a deadly path. Jack Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142327 On Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:29:27 +0100, Steen Schmidt I agree that the Saturn in its current form must evolve or die. But I do not agree that the Saturn architecture is a dead end. Saturn is a prime example of KISS. Look at the *much* more advanced and complex MC68000. It is barely able to keep up with the Saturn on a clock-for-clock basis ( ignoring memory bandwidth ;). This is probably due to its complex instruction set and microcode architecture. Plus it draws more power. I don't agree. There is room for *much* more improvement in the RPL kernel that could, potentially result in dramatic speed increases. See my posts in the thread development of a new os & compiler for GX.. Agreed. There are a few points that I don't agree with here. First, we do not need NEC's help in reimplementing the Saturn. The fact is that the Saturn is very simple compared to most processors today ( and even in the past ). The architecture is very easy to understand and straightforward. All the instructions are simple and do one thing at a time ( in the spirit of RISC. ) The instructions are easy to decode. And finally there is no cache, pipelining, microcode, etc. that make other processors much more complicated. To top it off you wouldn't believe the high level of abstraction that modern hardware design has risen to. In fact, the line between software and hardware design is starting to blur. Using simple programming language like syntax one can specify in one line logic what would have taken pages of schematics years ago. Let's take the Verilog hardware description language as an example. You want a 32-bit carry lookahead adder? No problem. assign a[31:0] = b[31:0] + c[31:0] is the code snippet that generates it. You want a 1 bit multiplexer? a ? b : c does the trick. How about a logic function? A pascal like case statement takes care of that. You need a controller to complement your architecture? Big collection of C/Pascal if statements to the rescue! :D This level of abstraction is called RTL in digital design jargon and stands for Register Transfer Level. It is the level at which you specify how data flows between registers and how it is processed on its way. Surely with the level of experience and knowledge we have in this group it would be an easy exercise. Take a look at some of these links : http://www.cmosexod.com/freeip.htm http://www.free-ip.com/ http://www.fpgacpu.org/ http://www.opencores.org/ Phew! Now to the second point ;). I don't agree that using an FPGA would inefficient or expensive. Modern FPGA's are very complex devices that make very good use of silicon resources. Some of Xilinx's low end FPGA's can run up to 200 MHz and draw very little power. For example, the Spartan-II XC2S15 can run up to 200 MHz and has a quiescent current consumption of 30 ma at 2.5 V. Checking www.avnetmarshall.com they want 7-10 USD for small quantities of 26-100. It wouldn't be too difficult to write a new back end for GCC that generated Saturn object code. Most of the complexity of the compiler is in the parsing and optimization stages. ( I'm lumping type checking, intermediate code generation and everything else into parsing ;). You don't have to worry about dealing with pipeline stalls and the like with the Saturn so that removes another complication. I totally agree with you. But perhaps if this community produced something that was nearing the point of actually coming to physical fruition then maybe HP would change its mindset because if we did get to that point whatever it was would blow HP's current calcs out of the water :D. It wouldn't hurt to have a huge multinational multi billion dollar company on your side. :) This is not the case as I said above. Telxon , the company my father used to work for which was eaten by Symbol and subsequently digested - ie. all the employees were laid off and the CEO cashed in on his stock options and ran for the hills -, was using FPGA's as replacements for ASIC's exclusively for its new products. Psion Teklogix, the company he is working for now, seems to be doing the same. This is obviously because they are very cheap and easy to work with. Found a hardware bug? Just fix it, resynthesize and reprogram the FPGA :). It would be totally insane to try to reimplement the internal Yorke peripherals when we have things light years better today that you can get off the shelf. They should all be dumped leaving only the Saturn core and the memory controllers. The CPU could interface with industry standard peripherals via GPIO lines. Since we would be designing the Saturn from scratch ( and in a high level language to boot ) I don't see a problem with any size data bus. ( although the larger the bus the more logic it requires which necessitates a bigger and more expensive FPGA. ) I really have to agree here. The current calcs are just crying out for more address space. Bank switching is an acute symptom of address space starvation :D. Even increasing it by 1 nibble would do the trick. What I propose is the best of both worlds. We get to leverage the years of work and experience that went into the RPL OS and maintain backward compatibility with all the current software while getting a huge hardware upgrade at the same time. I say we fix the speed problems in RPL and introduce more functionality perhaps even multitasking. On the hardware side I say we reimplement the Saturn on an FPGA but with some architectural changes such as more general purpose registers, upgraded internal datapath, increased address space ( say 23-bit ), offset addressable data capability ( to ease multitasking and memory management support ), and a primitive MMU/protection scheme - really just the old memory controllers with some additions. ( again to ease multitasking support and to provide for backward compatibility by trapping on any privileged instructions such as UNCNFG ( or when certain memory regions are accessed. It's an interesting coincidence that the ARM processors use a protection scheme *very similar* to the memory controllers on the Clarke/Yorke )). I have no doubt in my mind that if a significant amount of people from this group actively collaborated on this we could achieve these goals. We definitely have the talent and know-how here to do it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Remove the random permutation of HPRULES! from my e-mail address before replying. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Remove the UH!ESPRL from my e-mail address before replying. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142338 news:EcjF7.4891$RM3.436947@news000.worldonline.dk... X structure alot and Steen is a software pro! (like me:) Let's listen to him! away their for And the main point is there! A) HP continues to sell the 49G as is and those who are willing can still contribute to it. B) HP releases the source code to all... C) HP releases the source code for a small group D) HP *sells* the source code for a (commercial) group AND I'm ready to join! E) HP subcontracts the OS source to a (commercial) group F) HP sells both the OS and the VHDL design !!! G) HP releases a Saturn XP, with ten-fold increase in speed while lowering the power consumption by moving to both a lower voltage and a smaller process without any actual HW redesign. This is what I call modernization AND this is what I would do in the case of F) eg. we buy it all I'm personally willing to do a whole time work at a reasonable US salary in this project AND I'm willing to put, say 50-100 K$ personal funding into the shares Hopefully we could start with a new logo and brand if HP doesn't allow to use (for a fee) it's own logo. Veli-Pekka, without any humor, sarcasm, ... Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142348 with respect to the last two lines: May I suggest a brand name for the possible startup with the RealEngineeringAttitude[TM]: BD (or DB this time, as last time they flipped a coin, Bill got named first and Dave second). charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142367 And so is XScale - RISC is inherently simple. Yes, the 68k is not beautiful like the Saturn. Ok, but now you're talking about an OS redesign - this would make it almost as easy to make a new OS for a new processor. Granted, you'd loose the existing code base, but you'd also loose 99% of the drawbacks in the 48/49 design that you can't easily change. With a C compiler, the lost code base wouldn't be too hard to replace. Oh, do they not have the production rights? If not, then it's just a matter of an X-ray, then you're ready for serious reverse engineering and down in an FPGA/ASIC. Yes. The XScale instruction set is not much more difficult. In my opinion when it comes to a RISC processor, these complications are not that serious. Of course I would - it's not the first time I design hardware around a CPU ;-) But it is only 8k gates! That wouldn't even be enough for the 2*64-bit memory controller. There is a long way to the 15 million transistors of the XScale core + IO. It wouldn't be much harder writing a C-compiler for another processor. Hehe- right :-) Why not the processor then? Don't you find the performance difference between Saturn and XScale significant? If we design anything from scratch, it could just as well be a compiler as it could be an FPGA of Saturn. Yes, and 32/64 bit would be even better. We could achieve anything. Regards Steen Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142212 Wow, that sounds like a super calc! I like the idea. It is very ambitious, but I think it would be possible. -Scott Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142237 i think (heh... i think sounds dumb on its own... heh heh heh) we (the 48 community. please don't mention the 49) could (want, like, should) look for what the GX lacks and improve on those we don't need no fancy RISC cpu or high res lcd. Or , at least, i see it that way. And, definetly, keep the GX housing and keys. DEFINETLY. Anything else is of lower quality. Steen, i want to work on the interface, if i may :) charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142246 In my eyes the '48 lacks speed bigtime. The screen is way too small too, for a graphing calc. That cannot be remedied with a Saturn/Yorke spin-off, so we might as well just pick another processor. The housing and keys is the big question, much of the other stuff is in the mold already. 4 of my friends (three EE's and one datamatician) have wanted to join in - that was the four I've asked until now. We have not found an lcd yet, but we will use the XScale or nothing. It runs in sleepmode at 50 MHz / 10 mW (not 10 MHz / 10 mW as I wrote earlier), and it scales all the way to 733 MHz - 1 GHz is tested, but the CPU warranty would be on us then, so that won't be implemented. If anyone is interested in the progress, I'll probably post it here. The XScale @ 733 MHz performs roughly 2000 times better than the Saturn. Even at 50 MHz it'll be more than 100 times as fast, and use less power I guess. It'll also be a bit more expensive, and that may be the only thing to throw us off - Intel haven't returned my inquiry yet. We seem to have decided for a USB/FireWire/RS232 interface, with an option to include PCMCIA and CompactFlash later. Battery and lcd suppliers are not chosen yet. Just think about the power that is suddenly portable. Regards Steen Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142247 Yes, This sounds like our dreamed machine.. How could we help? It's time to play a diferent game, because the game is over.. J.Manrique CdU dela ETSIG PS: Ep II Teaser Trailer has given me new forces... charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142254 I'm not sure - I'll check things out in the next weeks. If anyone has experience with marketing and/or any hardware ideas, I'd be glad to hear it. Let the games begin then... Yes, I'm looking forward to see the second part. Regards Steen Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142256 if you want to save more power, check this out: http://www.eink.com/solutions/appliances.htm NNTP-Posting-Host: gw53-01-p236.ec.saix.net Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142263 Steen I think this is an excellent idea. Might I make a suggestion at this early stage. If you are going to develop such a machine, write the operting system in modular format. What I mean is develop a 'core' operating system that gives the calc it's standard functionality - basic scientific functions and programming language. All the other features (CAS, Statistics, Formulas, Graphing etc. ) should then be downloadable modules, much like the libraries on the HP48/9. This way a user can decide what he needs on the calc. It would also permit students to 'downgrade' the functionality of the calc for examination purposes by deleting all the add-ons, thus making it more widely acceptable in examinations. As I have said elsewhere, I do not like the idea of this group developing software and refining an hP product free of charge, while HP, after having ditched it's development engineers, sits like a parasite making money selling calculators while someone else does the work for them. Good luck and I hope you can get this project working. regards Andre Claassens news:KqyF7.8106$Ip2.459759@news010.worldonline.dk... for we the we (not 1 to PCMCIA charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142268 system This was our plan from the start. The entire collection of software will be much like Java in structure - library modules with standard and well defined interfaces. This is possible because of the huge performance of the XScale - we do not need to push the last percent out of the CPU, we can focus on maintainability. for I'm not sure this will be so much a school calc as a powerhouse in the field. I'll aim this at the engineer that needs a variety of instruments in hard to reach places, but the machine will be flexible enough to become anything given time. That's the goal anyway. Thanks. Regards Steen Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142270 of course you mean the 48 *processor* lacks speed. agreed. But for what applications? For the existing applications it is more or less acceptable. But if we are to be using c compiler and a heavier cas, oh yeah, we need the power. Definetly in the 200MHz area, with fluctuations. As i see it, you (well, to be honest, i do too, maybe even more than you) want the power of a '95 era pc in your palm. Yes, i agree on that. I did not ask you. What do you want this machine to do? Now for some brainstorming. Get your umbrellas... The 48gx. Is it a good machine? It is fscking awesome, of course! is it the perfect machine? most probably not. But this didn't stop Mika to write Jazz, and all the others to write equaly impressive code. The fact that this machine had little inneficiencies were somehow the factor for its success. It was hackable, not perfect. If it was perfect, we wouldn't strive to make it better outselfs. Hope you are getting me because i can not analyse this better. What imperfection in the name of god do you find in the gx housing!??! i am not talking about the keyboard layout, i am talking about the quality! Ok, so you know who i am : a physicist, 4th year. Next summer i was supposed to be getting my bsc, but i will have to delay it a year or so. Many things took time from me (guitar, my thoughts) so i owe a lot of classes. So far i went very good at programming (C++) and math (almost everything). I am not interested in the progress... i am interested in participating. whoa...that's a lot of oomph! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$..... will that power last 3 months? Lets hope so! i am reading the datasheets for the xscale processor... lets see... we HPers rule :) more later! NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.198.168.154 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142271 Lo people ! It is good to see how passionate this community is ... I have an idea, a thought .... This new calc, should be designed the way this community wants it to be, now most of you are GX lovers (i prefer 49 though :) ). The question i am asking, is why do we have to re-make an hp48gx with more power ?? Why not make a calculator from scratch ? Where on a web-site, people could choose the housing and keyboard, and propose their ideas that would be discussed .... Of course the final choice would be made by Steen and his partners .... I (and probably others) dont want a supra powerful HP48, but an easy to use powerful calculator but also very customizable (for 48 fans). Steen, people in this forum all know a lot about calcs they sticked to the hardest and best calculator available. Isnt that a proof of their competence ? Why not let them give ideas for their new favorite toy ? I have discovered hp calcs 2 months (in just 16 y/o) ago and i am fond of them ... Anyway thx for reading (excuse for the spelling, im french) Sincerely, Matthias LOPEZ Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142274 Lo people ! It is good to see how passionate this community is ... I have an idea, a thought .... This new calc, should be designed the way this community wants it to be, now most of you are GX lovers (i prefer 49 though :) ). The question i am asking, is why do we have to re-make an hp48gx with more power ?? Why not make a calculator from scratch ? Where on a web-site, people could choose the housing and keyboard, and propose their ideas that would be discussed .... Of course the final choice would be made by Steen and his partners .... I (and probably others) dont want a supra powerful HP48, but an easy to use powerful calculator but also very customizable (for 48 fans). Steen, people in this forum all know a lot about calcs they sticked to the hardest and best calculator available. Isnt that a proof of their competence? Why not let them give ideas for their new favorite toy ? I have discovered hp calcs 2 months (in just 16 y/o) ago and i am fond of them ... Anyway thx for reading (excuse for the spelling, im french) Sincerely, Matthias LOPEZ Reply-To: ttw@lanl.gov NNTP-Posting-Host: warnock2.c3.lanl.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142279 I have a probably heretical suggestin. Given that hand held, and for that matter, laptop computers are getting cheaper, why not build a calculator for small computations. I would like to see something like an upgraded HP27. Perhaps with a screen that showed the complete stack and 10 memories. Lots of built in funcions (all the trig, statistics, financial, etc. that can be crammed in.) No graphing or programming nor CAS. Small, using AAA batteries. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142282 news:9s6tmn$hrc$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net... Isn't that what happened over the last ~2 years? ;-) Without the brain power of many paople in the c.s.hp48 community, the 49 OS would not be what it is. just my 0.01 cents (discounted) Raymond As usual, OMHO, and maybe tomorrow I forgot what I said today;-) charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142285 This is what the TIs and the '49 tries to do. For that they are helplessly slow. Exactly. What the '49 couldn't, and what I expected from a real successor to the '48 series. I want Mathematica performance in a machine the size of the '49. The XScale supports, and will be equipped with if everything works out, SDRAM. That means that in some far fetched fantasy, one could shell out US$ 50 extra to get 512 MB RAM instead of 32 MB in the machine. It could even be a custom design like Dell applies - order on the net, and receive within 10 days your personalized math machine. I'm getting you. The system will be open, so anyone will be able to create software for it - we won't install some protection against running some self-made ARM code to take control of the hardware underneath the OS. the The quality is good, the layout of the keys is not. I'm saying that it will be tough to reproduce that type of quality. hehe, yes I can understand that ;-) I would not keep such a fun hobby all to myself. I couldn't even do it by myself. There will be a (probably long) period before any development can be distributed. If I need to shell out US$ 100.000 on this project, I'll need to be somewhat in control. Yes, and the IO companion chip (Intel 80312) does have an 64 bit 100 MHz interface to the XScale, and it even supports PCI bus @ 32/64 bits, 33/66 MHz operation. Intel Flash RAM at 0.13 u does not use up much power, neither does the XScale, and neither does alot of new display technologies. Regards Steen charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142286 That's the idea. I don't see any software or hardware from any HP calc going in this new machine. If anything it should be a livense of Mr. Parisse' CAS ;-) We have already discussed several ways of mudularity, which means for example that we will be able to change to another display within hours. Adding RAM or changing types will be a matter of hours too. The OS has with 95% certainty been decided to be OO. We will probably make a C/C++ compiler for it too. the competence I'd love ideas, and whereever possible, I'd be glad for help. I just need to make the calls, since it'll be my money in the production. I'm sure everybody here has many great ideas. That was the reason I posted this at the first place. You do not need to make excuses because you're French - that's something to be proud of :-) Your spelling is close to immaculate in my eyes. Regards Steen Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 18:06:49 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.5) Gecko/20011011 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp48 Subject: Re: What the future may bring Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142287 Whoa, definitly sounds like a worthy project guys. Just thinking here, we're going to be drawing a decent more battery power than any other calc out there and batteries are not going to last too long. So why not use a Lithium Ion battery? It could ether be replacable or build right into the housing. We *should* be able to get a decent amount more runtime out of it. Just an idea. O - Be sure that you do not use the same keyboard type as the 49, the keys are much too hard to press. I much prefer the Casio and newer TI keyboards. Andrew Lopez de la Fuente, Jose Manri wrote: charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142288 Lithium Ion was my first option, and it may be the chosen one. It's a bit expensive, but much more practical than 8 AA's or something. The XScale itself will run off one AA battery if needed. I'm thinking about 600-1200 mAh Lithium Ion (to use old and inexpensive technology), and then a power plug that will take a charger. The machine will be able to run off that charger too - it will easily be able to catch up with the power consumption of the device. I agree. I like the TI89 keys, if they could just stay as new always. They loosen much too quickly up. Regards Steen Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142291 Already been done. HP200LX palmtop. Smaller than a 48 when closed. Press the calculator button and you get an implementation of the HP- 19BII calc. Just as you describe it. RPN. 4-level stack, 10 registers, all visible. HP solver, plotting, stats, trig, financial, unit & currency conversions, etc. Unusually for a palmtop it has a numeric keypad which makes it slightly more calculator-like. Mine's also running Derive v4.11 (factors a 15 digit number as two 8 digit primes in 22 seconds) and Borland's C compiler just in case, etc., etc. In fact, any software that will run on a 8086, CGA screen PC. Mine also has my diary, phone book, a Collins dictionary, book reader, 16C emulator, and does all my e-mail, even via an infra-red link to my mobile if I'm stuck for a phone line. Instant off/on. Runs for 3 weeks on 2 x AA's - std. or rechargables. Oh yeah, nearly forgot: it's so good that HP stopped making it. Somebody keeps making these stupid decisions. I wonder what her name is? -- Chris Randle - Amethyst Logic X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142292 Hi. It's nice to read some much enthousiasm here. But please, be realistic about the amount of work involved in creating a new calculator. As an example, when we designed the HP49, both the MetaKernel existed (and it took 5 years, 5 people to write it) and Erable (and Bernard worked on it for over 5 years too). Still, it took over three years to get ROM 1.19-6 It's been estimated by HP, that creating the HP48GX has required over 150 engineer years. Not that I want to sound too pessimistic, but the task is huge Always willing to help anyway Regards Jean-Yves news:t5GF7.5427$RM3.513835@news000.worldonline.dk... power consumption Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142294 Hey, I thought I was ambitious ;-) Just $100? That would be very nice! :-) A few things: * Every participant would need one of these machines (pointed out by Doug Burkett) * There may be differences of opinion as to what features to have (again, credit to Doug) * The project should not be abandoned if a few of the members leave * As you (Steen) wrote, there needs to be strict version control * Good, thorough testing is an important part of software development * Are you developing the CAS by yourself or using an existing one? Bhuvanesh. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142295 Not bad... 40 seconds on my TI-92+. 3 weeks seems like a short time... my TI-92+ runs for about three months with very heavy use. Hehe :-) Bhuvanesh. NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.198.168.154 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142297 Lo people ! It is good to see how passionate this community is ... I have an idea, a thought .... This new calc, should be designed the way this community wants it to be, now most of you are GX lovers (i prefer 49 though :) ). The question i am asking, is why do we have to re-make an hp48gx with more power ?? Why not make a calculator from scratch ? Where on a web-site, people could choose the housing and keyboard, and propose their ideas that would be discussed .... Of course the final choice would be made by Steen and his partners .... I (and probably others) dont want a supra powerful HP48, but an easy to use powerful calculator but also very customizable (for 48 fans). Steen, people in this forum all know a lot about calcs they sticked to the hardest and best calculator available. Isnt that a proof of their competence ? Why not let them give ideas for their new favorite toy ? I have discovered hp calcs 2 months (in just 16 y/o) ago and i am fond of them ... Anyway thx for reading (excuse for the spelling, im french) Sincerely, Matthias LOPEZ Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142299 Lindi Claassens wrote: Hello, I have a completely different view. I think that several programmers outside ACO would be proud if their tools where integrated in the 49 ROM, without expecting money for this. BUT expecting at least to be named in What is new?, a document released with each new ROM. These people usually do programming just for fun. Some high- quality software has been already developed in the past two years. IMHO, also a beta-tester's first names should be added to the BetaTesting file of library 256, provided beta-testers do exist and that their hints proved to be useful. I do not think that HP is making much money out from its graphic calculators, at least not in Germany. One of the reasons is the old-fashioned americanized Units System. It would be easy to modernize the Units system without great effort so that engineers from different countries could easily customize their own Units platform. The software for realizing this on the HP49 already exist. - Wolfgang Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142300 Hi, news:uxFF7.5422$RM3.511661@news000.worldonline.dk... will The 'quality' *and* layout of the keyboard were amongst the main reasons which prevented me from using the 49G. So please don't use rubb(er)ish keys in the new dream-machine If the dream machine will be a real successor of the HP-48, I think it should have at least hard plastic key caps, like the HP-48 or the Jornada 690, and a well-defined activation point. My suggestion is to have at least a consistent numerical keypad like this: 7 8 9 / 4 5 6 * 1 2 3 - 0 , ? + and maybe a big ENTER key below or above the numerical block. Maybe the Expander offered what we could use? On the other side, I think a relatively low-cost non-symbolic RPN calc is what would sell really well. If the 42S weren't that expensive, it would have been one of the best selling calcs ever (IMHO). If it were switchable between RPN and 'ALG' modes, like the 17BII, there would be nearly no need for any other calc. Regards, Raymond As usual, all IMHO;-) NNTP-Posting-Host: mix-grenoble-104-2-28.abo.wanadoo.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142302 Jean-Yves Avenard a 216crit : I agree with Jean-Yves. And he did not speak about the time needed to build the tools for supporting a custom OS. My opinion is that it is better to use an existing OS (my favorite one is GNU/Linux, with the familiar Debian distribution). You can develop software *now*, you are almost sure that you will find a driver for your hardware later if you are using standard components, if not then it's surely easier to write a driver than a whole OS. My second recommendation would be respect open standards whatever you choose as model for software development (e.g. if your langage is C++, use the STL, don't use proprietary extension of your specific compiler. I'm not sure Java can really be considered as an open standard for example). Now, I hope that HP will release the 49 ROM under the GPL. Despite the relative slow speed of the Saturn, it would be an excellent news for everyone who like programming. I don't think it should be considered as a way for HP to make money with free work of people on the net, otherwise HP would first release a stable 1.20 ROM version with the 1.19-6. But it would considerably increase our freedom. In the long run I believe freedom is the most important. Who knows, maybe someone could make a much faster clone of the Saturn and we could reuse our OS on it. Or we may just want to use the 49 inside an emulator in a handheld... X-NNTP-Posting-Host: simul8.demon.co.uk:212.228.120.103 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1005049432 nnrp-01:6508 NO-IDENT simul8.demon.co.uk:212.228.120.103 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142320 Steen Schmidt wrote: [snip] All sounds excellent. Another idea: If ROM budget allows, provide a brief help string for each user-level command, so that user doesn't have to lug the manual around (or worse yet, a laptop on which to read the manual!). Yes, you can get such things as add-ons for the 49, but having it built in and done by the software authors would help to ensure that the online documentation tracks the development state of the machine. Another nice thing would be, regardless of the user-level programming language you choose to implement (and I'm inclined to think that something RPL-like would be a good idea, as the BASIC-style language on the TIs is a pain), it might be useful to provide a SysRPL-like language for backward compatibility. Obviously the user-interface bits would be totally different, but having the guts of SysRPL there would make porting big structure-crunching applications (e.g CASes) much less difficult. James User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Developer-Friendly Unix APIs) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142335 Hi Jean-Yves, I was curious about whether HP had any desire to keep their hands on the software tools used to create the 49? Things such as compilers, debug environments, development suites, etc would not appear to have any use to them since they are ending calc production. Is there any word on whether these tools could possibly become available? ALso, do you actually think it is feasible that you could get the rom GPLed? I reflected on all of this over the weekend and I realize how sad I am at the current turn of events. In my mind it really is like the end of an era. But I do take solace in the notion that somehow the value of the HP calcs is improved (not monetarily I mean) and it inspires me to keep working on projects. I agree that a new calc is an incredibly daunting task and I don't expect it to work out. But being able to continue work on the 4x series *is* intriguing and having legal right to develop and improve the rom would serve only to carry on the legacy of great machines. How could that be of any harm to HP? Best regards, -Al Arduengo Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142336 Lindi Claassens wrote: Interesting idea. Buy the basic machine and then shop for 'accessories'. I like it. If you do this and you're thinking of even making it accessible at the high school level and even in exams then make sure that you include a quick, easy and foolproof way to demo what modules are installed for an inspection. Otherwise there's no chance of getting it ok'd for use it in exams. Even with that it would be viewed with suspicion because of the power you're talking of giving it. (Not arguing against - just commenting). NNTP-Posting-Host: gw53-01-p104.ec.saix.net Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142349 I agree that is what has happened over the last two years, but at least HP were still contributing by employing the folks at ACO to to a lot of the development. At this stage, HP are not prepared to do anything, and I suspect, bargaining on making money out of other people's efforts. Andre Claassens news:9s73fp$m47$03$1@news.t-online.com... developing Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142354 news:87wv14ylr9.fsf@austin.rr.com... Ask HP, JYA is not speaking for HP anymore... ;-( I'd like to add: FIRST: Just use the existing CPU design, but implement the Saturn in smaller scale & voltage easily a X fold Power, thus: Saturn XP Every bit & peace is directly usable on the calc but it will outperfrom any calc that TI may throw at. This will gain time to do A) Jupiter - a bigger Saturn with 32-address and 32-bit data path and a true 64-bit register design with HW-multiply Then, later: B) Xscale-CPU based totally new machine with emulator Like the Power-Mac 68000 code emulator. Veli-Pekka PKT - Palvelu, Koulutus ja Turvallisuus I speak for my Company when I speak here !!! HP 49 XP My 3_cEuro [VPN] Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142355 news:3BE79661.E201FFD3@math.fu-berlin.de... developing having A Very Good Idea !!! Agreed ! Will it have Complex Units then? (1.5_V, <) 45_o) + (-200_mV, <) 0.5_rad) Veli-Pekka PS: How about a new name: VP-58GX ;-) Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142356 news:662e00ed.0111052038.719486a6@posting.google.com... X US$ Can we Xpect a TI-guy like Bhuvanesh (reincarnation of Shiva?;) to join in? How about some 100,000.00 USD or 100.000,00 Euro Veli-Pekka Reday join in for some euros & a full time manager on tech design & programming & marketing 15 years of pure programming & analyses &cetera 5 years of marketing (SW+HW) + consulting (including some coding) Ready to start a neww calculator line Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142357 news:9s84m7$9cj$02$1@news.t-online.com... X X Expander is a great compromize between a PDA and calc This is a viable suggestion In-My-Very-Humble-Opinion [VPN] Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142358 news:0FFF7.5424$RM3.512261@news000.worldonline.dk... X with compiler X How about using both C# and Eiffel# ??? VPN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142361 I agree with this analysis.. I remember a while back before the ACO when Andre Schoorl (maybe), Will Laughlin, one of my friends here, and some others had this same idea. They found that is was an immense amount of work and would require immense resources (financial and time) to do such a thing. I also don't want to be discouraging, but hopefully just give a brief reality check =) -- Aaron Jean-Yves Avenard wrote: charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142369 new Was that full time, for a hardware platform that you knew like your own back pocket, becasue you designed it yourself? If we should be realistic, let's be realistic. I'm still hoping a little that Mr. Parisse would consider his CAS for the new device. It could be fairly easy to port. Again; I believe you were very limited by the hardware, and you needed alot of guesswork, to use the existing ('48) software. HP didn't help you much, did they? How would you have fared if you could just do DrawScreen() in your code, and the complete display would be redrawn, automatically taking care of all global dependencies? I don't think it was ever that easy developing for the '49. Yes, but at that time much of the work done was pioneer work. Now, we just pick all the goods from the shelves, and implement well-known algorithms. I have implemented an embedded (i960/87C51) multitasking OS from scratch in three weeks. It's not that hard, when you just seperate OS tasks from application tasks. This need to be done anyway, since we may want to go the OO way, and we want a very modular design. Very. It may still just run out in the sand - nothing is decided yet, I'm just throwing ideas around...... I'm glad, and would be proud to receive your help Jean-Yves. Any opinion is appreciated. Regards Steen charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142370 Linux would probably cut it, but I do not see the OS as the tough part. Is there a Linux shell for the XScale core? Standard components would merely be USB & FireWire. How much hardware is currently shipping with USB & FireWire drivers for Linux? Of course, and in that case we would just write a new driver for our OS ;-) I agree. Now that I have your attention; Would you consider, via licensing of course, to let your CAS run on an XScale device if that was feasible? Regards Steen charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142372 Hehe ;-) Isn't period used as thousand seperator in America? I'd write US$ 100000, or US$ 100k or... Where? No point really in prototyping 100 devices, right? I'll very soon have a price for the hardware minus housing & keyboard. I'll also have to sign an NDA with Intel :-( You must remember that what I am talking about is me starting a business of my own. Me and a couple of my friends will become partners, and leave our day-time jobs for this - we will then be on the handheld device production market, and not necessarily doing this only as a hobby. A contract between partners will solve such issues - I have had one business go down because of difference of opinions. Absolutely. Yes. I'd be glad if I could use an existing one, as my primary idea is a platform. If you extract the essence of my posts, you'll see that the device will have performance to boot, be portable (durable batteries, weight around 2-300 g), and have fast interfaces to the outside world. I'd then produce measurement & automation add-on tools for the FireWire port. As an example, one could imagine a 100 MHz AD-converter, pumping data through the FireWire connection to the device (with FireWire you can reserve bandwidth, to optimize for data collection for example). Then you could use the 240x128 or 320x240 display as an oscilloscope. If the XScale should take care of the entire bandwidth of one FireWire channel, it'd still have more than 4 Gb/s internal bandwith to serve a display and other controllers. Theoretically, you could order an expanded version with 8 FireWire channels, and still have enoght time to show all 8 channels on the display. How about that? With the built-in RTC, you could leave the device for a couple of days, letting it take care of sampling temperature or other things that rarely needs sampling. I'm talking about much more than a '49 on steroids. Regards Steen charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142374 Yes, that would be a good idea. Yes - seems good. Regards Steen Subject: Re: Why are the regulars giving up? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142376 Al Arduengo wrote: Got that right! Better buy a spare 48GX before the pipeline dries up. -Joe- -- Ninety-nine percent of creatures on this planet do very well without a brain at all. -- Mark Tilden Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142273 For the theory behind these, look into the Calculus of Finite Differences. You'll find a chapter about it in one of Martin Gardner's Mathematical Games books (from his column in Scientific American). Generally, you're dealing with integer parameter polynomials. Have fun! Jim Horn Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142326 news:3BE58D20.29177323@iname.com... EXLR function returns a list of the L/R-sides. Just my 3._cEuro [VPN] Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142236 Hello all. Why don't you simply go and write to Carly ? I'm sure she's listening... carly_fiorina@hp.com or Iain Morris (EPS manager, who took the decision about ACO): iain_morris@hp.com Regards Jean-Yves Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142249 And say what. . . 1) you're making a big mistake! 2) please release the code for the calculators! 3) may the fleas of 1000 camels infest your armpits! 4) all of the above 5) no input ???? TW ~The enemy's gate is down. NNTP-Posting-Host: gw53-01-p236.ec.saix.net Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142261 Jean Yves, I doubt if it is worth the effort, I recall sending a few e-mails to HP with some technical queries. To date they have not even had the good manners to bother sending a reply. (Not even and automated reply to acknowledge receipt of the e-mails) Clearly they (HP) are not interested in customer support and neither do they appear to care what we, apparently a minority group in their eyes, think. I have had enough to say about HP recently so I am not going waste everyone else's time repeating myself. Once again, thank you (and all the other guys) for all you efforts and enthusiasm. Andre Claassens news:9UzF7.13311$xS6.17310@www.newsranger.com... X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142317 tGwF7.83091$g8.72061@newsfeeds.bigpond.com... Lobbying could be a nice idea... Can you prepare an email which we could send to them all the same ? Bye, Yoann. Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142337 By default, the people who might write in, are going to be owners of HP calculators and therefore not likely to be a significant source of possible revenue to HP. I think an appeal should be made but it should stress the tradition that HP has to maintain at being in the forefront of handheld calculating products. I think that even if HP doesn't make any money on calculators ( but hopefully not loose any either ) it is in their interest to maintain production, if it is publicized that they have stopped making them, that might be a detriment of their image which they might rather not incur. Luis X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142359 Hello you would be surprise. A study was made a while ago about how much an unhappy customer cost (or better say, make a company lose) during his lifetime. With how he will influence others etc... it's huge ! (ten of thousands of dollar). So one calculator may be nothing, but the rest and all adding up, it is Jean-Yves news:44bc82ce.0111060842.14be2c74@posting.google.com... Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142366 I mailed them yesterday and got a reply from Iain Morris: --Begin Message-- Scott, thanks for your note to Carly regarding our line of HP Calculators. We have not exited the calculator business! We are closing our faclity in Melbourne, Australia and will be transfering our support of the calculator line to other HP locations. We expect that the calculator line will continue as a good business for HP for a long time. Thanks for your interest in our products, we appreciate your business. Iain Morris President, EPS. --End Message-- -Scott Originator: mschaef@bermuda.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 27 Xref: newsmst01.news.prodigy.com comp.sys.hp48:142381 So why shut down ACO? -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com