A409 Nick the TI-89 supports use of assembly language, initially an addon but eventually ti sponsored, There is also a C compiler, third party, so it's fairly extendable, just different.... why am I using the 49 if I'm such a fan of the 89? I'm not a fan of either. These are both tools. I only code when paid and I have other hobbies, mostly ancient textile arts so I'd rather spend my spare time there than programming around arcane and poorly supported hardware. The instructor of the class I'm taking won't allow use of the 89 but will allow use of the 49. That certainly says something. But whatever that statement is is open for interpretation. If you are interested in programming for the 89 here's a good site to gain information from http://www.technoplaza.net/tigcc-asm/. A great example of the inconsistency of the 49 is putting 4x+3 on the stack then click on solvex This gets you the correct answer -3/4. Open the numeric solver put in the expression 4x+3 and you get -.750000000001! It really seems the answer to such a basic expression should be consistently correct..... anyway... As for me I just want the tools to work with a reasonable investment of time for the level of sophistication of the tool. So far it seems to me the 49 requires to great a learning curve and to many unnecessary hurdles to perform some items that should seemingly be included. But that's just my opinion I am sure everyone elses will vary. However I will use it and appreciate the help I get here. If it weren't for this newsgroup this calculator would be virtually useless. So you guys are an incredible resource and very much appreciated. Carmen I see. It is only that ( I think ) most people out there who buy a programmable calculator expect some more or less easy understandable programming language, one that resembles what they do when they do calculations by pressing keys. I can't imagine many people buying a programmable calculator that can be programmed for doing more complicated things but with assemply or C. It is that the underlying math gets hidden for most people then. (Note: I don't say that math disappears, only gets hidden.) Example: Let's mess up with generating functions. (They impressed me quite strongly, I guess ;-)) We want to make a program to find such a thing. Now, if the calculator has a rich set of commands that allows us to somehow accomplish the job by using our more or less known commands like LIMIT, SOLVE or whatsoever, then two things are more focused and appear transparent: The underlying mathematics and the clarity of the program. It is easier to think in terms of find the characteristic polynomial, solve it, make a general linear combination of the solutions, find the linear combination that satisfies the inital conditions,... and so on and at the same time having commands that correspond more or less directly to our involved steps. Using assempler or C makes things a bit more difficult, not because the mathematics disappear, but because we go deeper and deeper in the inner world of bits and bytes, which of course are just another way to express what the mathematics that we learn in school express, but harder to decode for our brains. When we take this to the endth degree, then we end binary code, which (for me) is more difficult to understand, than a couple of commands like LIMIT or SOLVE. If I remember well, Bhuvanesh has said that for some reason the built-in commands of the TI89/92 can't be used when someone programs that in C. Or am I mistake here? Now, if most people would program the calc with its own programming language (the one that contains the set of built-in commands and functions) rather than with C or assempler, one question rises: Is it OK to (indirectly) limit this programming possibility by restricting the set of built-in commands to a less flexible level? Shouldn't a high degree of flexibility be offered to the normal-user who doesn't care that much about bits and bytes? Yes, they are. That's why they should be flexible and their flexibility should be easily available for anyone that uses them. poorly use It says that the HP49G is allowed while the TI89 isn't. That's all. No more, no less. If wee trusted the opinions of class instructors back in the eighties or even in the early nineties, we would not be allowed to use anything today. Opinions anybody can have. But knowledge is sparse. Had the (majority of)instructors undestood what math is about, they would not have any problem with the 89 or the 49. The rest of the sentence you are allowed to use this but not that is only interpretation and speculation. I should have read further, me stupid person with strictly serial interfaces to the world ;-)) Ahh, thank you very much. I'll try to understand the contents of the site, though assempler always causes an allergic reaction in my soul...;-) stack It is not inconsistent at all. SOLVEX is (mainly) an exact analytic solver, while the other is just what you said, a *numeric* solver. The mathematical methods involved are completely different. The first solves analytically (if possible) and doesn't care about particular values of results. You could also solve a*x+b and get the result -b/a with SOLVEX, which is the analytic closed form of the solution no matter what a and b are. But the numeric solver solves only for one particular case of a and b (your case being b=3 and a=4) and returns the solution that holds only for this case. time 49 It indeed does. But so does mathematics. ;-) Seemingly included, seemingly for you, Carmen. Your wish for included is important, but so are the wishes of anybody else. Add all these wishes and make them includes, then you end up with presumably thousends of functions. It is not elegant and also not sufficient this way. It is better to analyze the wishes and search for a set of commands that allows most wishes to come true. The question then is where the optimum between flexibility and amount of typing is, but it is really not at the extremal point of adding each and every wish as a built-in command. Yes, this group is a real treasure. I also would still be looking for answers if the people here weren't that helpful. Not to mention how many HP49Gs would have been executed if the answers and the help found here were not available. Nick. while version 12.2002 of Filer1/2 for the 49 was What is new? Now one can easily do ARCHIVE or RESTORE to or from an arbitrary port with a choose box for these commands on a key which is active only if the filer scans a port. Hence, one may keep 3 different backups of the HOME dir (which includes key assignments, alarms etc) in the 3 ports, all under the same port-name HDir. Equal names do not matter since one can RESTORE only from a definite port. This command errors if there is no HDir in the scanned port. Clearly, somebody who often risks a crash can use his favourite expanded filer after a crash only if it is stored in port 2, say, not only key-assigned. The Ar/Rs choose box was checked thoroughly, it is 99% error-proof. I would like to know how 49-users are pleased with the new filer. And I would also appreciate if people working simultaneously with the 48 and 49 would compare the best 48-filer with Filer1 or Filer2. The size-aspect should also count, I need 1.5 KB only :-) Have fun - Wolfgang ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools I've replaced the standard filer with a key assignment to Filer2 and a command for the port2 Ar$Rs in my custom menu. My only suggestion would be to create a little program to automate the keyassignment and perhaps getting the very usefull Ar$Rs into the APPS menu. I'd really like to make use of the Application menu extention but haven't been able or had time to get my head around how it works. I'd like create something that will do something with the variable selected depending on it's type eg program-run it, Equation-start solver routine otherwise leave on stack etc. As for how good it is? I have a directory on my PC for usefull 49 downloads, it has a special subdirectory dedicated to Wolfgang Utilities. All of them are small, quick and generally usefull. Stephen.N Anyone got them? I'm too lazy to write one from scratch :( -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. Here is the information I got from the HPCC group about their conference and the HP Reps. Oops, maybe you should have been included on the try to get onto it (eric@brouhaha.com). HP intend to continue in the calculator business! But the new people plan to create _only_ designs. The actual implementation and manufacture will _all_ be subcontracted to large Chinese calculator makers. This seems to be a compromise between those senior HP managers who think that still being in the calculator business is an anachronism for HP, and those who think it is a traditional HP product line and should not be abandoned. Two new business models made this way are in the works and should be released about Christmas or New Year. HP told us the model numbers, but asked us to keep this stuff confidential for now. They also said they would continue with RPN - part of the discussion concerned the suggestion that a new name should be used for RPN - HP Logic System or something like that, since the name RPN is used by the other makers as a way to frighten potential customers. Many of us at the conference felt that this is a bit better than nothing, but that the traditional users who depend on HP quality are likely being abandoned :-( Hope this helps! :-) Wlodek -- Richard Garner rgarner@vidnet.net Business models? At last? Can you at least tell us if they will be serious, professional machines, real RPN replacements for the 19BII or ugly ducklings .88 la 39/40? Please? I'm asking because I'm learning accounting and would like a professional machine. Should I get the 17/19BII or wait? -- Thierry Morissette thm47@msn.com and Finally, it would depend on your needs and the time you expect to fullfill them. Can you wait a few months for a new model ? I don't know if the unofficial announcement of a new financial calculator is true or if it would be better than the actual ones (10BII, 12C, 17BII and 19BII). Am I missing anyone ? Many here work around more heavy technical issues, and prefer to program their HP 4X flexible horse-powered machines with their financial needs. I actually own a 49G and bought a 12C, a year ago. In your case, and if I have to choose today, I'd rather buy the HP 17BII model. Hope I'd been useful We can't say because they didn't tell us. -- Bruce Horrocks Hampshire England bh@granby.demon.co.uk Rats! You did not ask from me, but personally I would buy the 19BII It's both AOL and RPN and the solver is fun to use plus there is relatively lot of room for many formulas. Also it's packed with reprogrammed functions. I wonder if HP could do a more feature-rich calculator... Veli-Pekka This might be a newbie question, but what the heck. I used to do a lot of SysRPL development on the 48GX and most of the development I did was done on the PC with IDE programs like HP-IDE. I recently got a 49G and wanted to start doing SysRPL on it, but can't find any IDE's for the PC to do my development on. I have read that the 49G comes with an editor on the calc itself, which is great, but wanted to do my development on the PC. Can you all give me some suggestions to what I should use to do HP49G SysRPL development on the PC? Links to the programs you suggest would be great also. Again, sorry if the question is completely off-base. Doug of on HP had a development system called the SDK or Debug2. For some months now, I have been developing version 2 of that system called Debug4x. Debug4x fixes a ton of bugs and adds a lot of usability features to the old debug2. Debug4x, for example, supports both the 48 and 49. It can pop-up a list of RPL verbs if you type the first few characters; it can show stack diagrams for the RPL under the cursor; it can develop input forms using a GUI interface. I used HP-IDE for a long time. Believe me, you would never want to go back! download the program and add you to the beta test list. The download is about 5 MB and comes with a partially completed help system and demos for libraries, directories and simple verbs. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Graves RKBA! bgraves@ix.netcom.com the development tools for the 49G named 'Debug2' can be found on www.hpcalc.org There may also another, improved & debugged version named 'Debug4x' be coming soon. However, a progrmmable editor like UltraEdit or (preferred) TSE, along with the 32bit HP tools and Emu48 will do the job as good as some IDE. Raymond of on calc you I have two unused copies of the HP48G Owners Manual. One is still shrinkwrapped. They are $25 or best offer. and here it is (initial): http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html not as much as i thought :( and being free, no complaint from me :) Yep! I was there for about six years. My physics classes were the most fun. No. Did he join recently? I moved to Champaign, IL, about two years back. Argh, no physics?? :-( Bhuvanesh. i don't know, 2 years maybe? they may have made a typo. i read down the page that they have a physics pilot course already made. Courses were selected from the following departments and groups for the pilot phase: Biology Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Linguistics and Philosophy Ocean Engineering Physics Sloan School of Management Speech Communications Urban Studies and Planning so, you no longer live in Baltimore? Oh, good :-) No, I'm now at Wolfram Research (www.wolfram.com). -- Bhuvanesh great, congrats! hope i'll see one of these days a Bhuvanesh-Research.com or a Bhuvafram-research.com or a wolfvanesh-research.com or ... :) i've been reading S. Wolfram's book The New Kind of Science. interesting. he was in Greenbelt-MD the other day (where i got the book). good luck Can anyone tell me if there is any difference between the HP49 commercialized in France and that in English speaking countries? Clearly the packaging and booklet are in French, but is there any difference in the calculator itself (as there was for the HP48 versions)? Hwyl Paul Replying to myself... I checked the FAQ, which made it fairly clear. Today I took the plunge, and bought what was probably the last 49G in have to take it back :-( (it wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have a 48GX). Which leads me to... does anyone know where I can get my hands on a PC cable (since of course the 48 serial cable won't work). A bientot Paul I made my own HP48 cable using a tiny 4-pin connector that's sold in electronics stores as a CD-ROM Audio Cable. When I got my HP49, I noticed that the four pins at the lower left are in the same order as the 48, and the little connector fits over them without touching any of the others. The rest of the cable, the PC end, came from a mouse. That means that it's nice and flexible. Since you can buy surplus mice for the equivalent of $5, and the CD-ROM cable for about $1, you get a PC cable for either the 48 or the 49 for about $6. Bill I live in France and in early 2002 I finally decided to buy a HP49G (being a proud and happy owner of a HP42S since 1990). Surprise: I had a lot of difficulties to find one! Then I read on the WWW discussions on HP closing down their calculator line. In my panic I called many dealers in the Paris region and finally when I found one I bought it right away, in an original package, but obviously (lots of dust on the box) a VERY old machine, serial ID01400681 (made in Indonesia), VERSION yields HP49-C, Revision #1.16, Copyright HP 1999. So I thought I had bought one of the last available (but one of the earliest) HP49G in France. Note: This is probably only possible with the french dealers who don't care and don't know about HP machines (I won't tell the name here but is is a big supermarket chain selling lots of electronics). Anyway. They promised me to provide a serial PC connection cable but still I haven't got it, I think they just don't all you guys who keep the world going with this kind of free information exchange. Johannes Well, the HP49G that I bought in Darty a couple of weeks ago was an ID93 model, 1.05 ROM (since then I've read that there are problems with that version's serial port). When i bought it, it was the demonstration model in the shop, and when I got back, I noticed that the cable was missing so i took it back and got a replacement. I also noticed that the box bore more than one of the stickers that they put on at the collection point in the shop, so both of the calculators must have been returned at least once already. I already have a 48GX (with PC cable), and I've jury rigged with 4 short pieces of wire and some sticky tape a bridge between the PC-HP48 cable and the HP48-HP49 cable. A bientot Paul -- Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth) What happens if you have lead in your pants as well as lead in your pencil? Please can others try the following boolean expression with Bool49, Truth Table and OneTerm (A AND C) OR (A AND D) OR (B AND C) OR (B AND D) Truth table gives me a table of all zeros, and OneTerm returns [A B C D] correct list of variable and an empty list {} incorrect. I expect it to return {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. Do others see the same behaviour or is it something specific to me? I get the correct truth table. I get {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. Do you have anything stored in the variables A, B, C or D? If not, provide your flag list, and I'll see what I can find. variables I don't think I have A,B,C or D defined. I have tried typing A [ENTER] in the HOME directory and the directory where I was orgininally using Bool49v2.0, this I'll call my Working Directory. In both cases I end up with 'A' on the stack. Similaryl with B,C & D. Typing VARS to give a list of varriables in the working directory, and intermediate directory between Working and HOME and the HOME directory gives me a list of variables, A,B, C or D are not present in any of these lists. Conclusion I don't think I have any variables called A,B, C or D. Have I missed any possibilities here? Just for completeness I tried (DOG AND HORSE) OR (DOG AND ZEBRA) OR (FISH AND HORSE) OR (FISH AND ZEBRA) and again got the all zeros truth table and null result from one term. I presume by the flag list you mean the system flags accessed via [MODE][FLAGS] The following have a check mark 19,31,36,40,41,42,44,57,68,72,73,82,90,114,117,119,128 Just in case it is of significance ROM version 1.19-6 MArk No, you were very thorough - I would only have checked with 'A' ENTER etc. Yes, you can recall your flags with the command RCLF. Such a recalled list can then be stored again with STOF - that's a fast way to change back to a previous set of settings. You like the small font, eh? ;-) I bet you have the internal word size set to 3 or less - run the command RCWS and see if it returns 3 or less? Now do 64 STWS, and use Bool49 again :-) etc. list a { # 12B8A41050FF0h #180000000000000h #8052000002020188H #400h} again OK you hit the jackpot. I have a program that executed 3 STWS. The program takes the output of OneTerm and converts the result back to a boolean expression just to make reading easier. I am trying to work out if a boolean expression or list is the best presentation format. The boolean expression has the advatage of being able to use BView. Need to work on the program a more following this discussion. MArk H Do RCLF VP X I just uploaded the second part of the update to the sequences, series and limits marathon to hpcalc. The marathon contains now in addition to the already existing contents, how recurrence sequences can be handled with the HP49G and programs for finding generating functions and converting (some kinds of) recurrences to their analytic closed forms, so that the programs then can find bounds condensation points etc. If someone can't wait until the next update of hpcalc, don't hesitate Nick. I've used my hp49g for a couple of years now and I'm completly saticfied. But today it started doing a thing that it never done before, it asked me Change to approx mod? or something like that, and if I didn't do it, the result couldn't be calculated! I've never tried that before. I always just keep it in exact mode. What flags is missing now? Another thing that started today, I can't write 85^4 (or similar expression) without my calculator calculates the value right away! And it doesn't write it nicely! It simply puts out the value without the EE. What's wrong here? Last thing, is just a questions about the hp49g in general. How come the Ti89 is faster at calculating integrals? Eg. x*exp(-x^2) integrated from 0 to infinite. The Ti89 gives the answer right away but the hp49g needs a lot of time to think about it, before it gives the answer 1/2. And the integral x^2*exp(-x^2) integrated from 0 to infinite can't even be calculated on my hp49g, but it can be done on the Ti89. Anyone with a reason for this? Anders Misfeldt That is because you provide numeric input - any number with a decimal point is considered numeric input. If you have used numeric input before without the calc asking you permission to change mode, it's because you have had silent mode ON earlier (set flag -120). Huh? Example, please. 1/2. The TI89 spends 0.16 seconds on this, while the HP49G spends 4.36 seconds. The reason is simple: The TI89 uses heuristics widely, which is a huge advantage when dealing with integrals like yours. Specifically, the TI89 looks in a table if it knows the integral, and plugs in the limits - the HP49G *calculates* each integral, hence it'll always spend an amount of time applying calculus rules. The HP49G could also have used heuristics, had it been implemented that way, but Bernard Parisse chose not to. I guess because of development time and lack of space - the latter is most likely. When the integrals get tougher, the HP49G will sometimes beat the TI89 with a large margin, but whenever you calculate school book examples (a very wide group of problems), the TI89 knows the answers pretty much right away. Some examples, where the TI89 is alot slower than the HP49G: '1/(X^4+1)^4' 'X' RISCH, TI89: 113.27 seconds, HP49G: 9.80 seconds '1/(SIN(X)-2)^3' 'X' RISCH, TI89: 36.74 seconds, HP49G: 12.57 seconds 'EXP(X)*COS(X)^4*X^3' 'X' RISCH, TI89: 42.51 seconds, HP49G: 15.58 seconds There does not exist a closed form solution to the integral of 'X^2*EXP(-(X^2))' - that is, not without utilizing special functions like ERF(X). Such special functions aren't supported by either of the two calcs, and even the TI89 calculates this integral numerically. So can the HP49G, or be in numeric mode. With 5 decimals accuracy, the TI89 spends 10.50 seconds on the above, while result ;-) There exist a number of expressions the TI89 can't integrate, where the HP49G can (as well as the other way around, of course). For example: There exist also factorizations that the TI89 can't do, while the HP49G can. There are even a larger number of limits the TI fails at, while its solver is very good. The two machines have very different powers. Ok eg. I want to calculate 4^84, so In RPN-mode I write: 2: 4 1: 84 then hit the Y^x buttom and then I get this on my display: 1: 374144419156711147060143317175368453031918731001856 instead of just: 1: 4^84 or 1: 3.741444E50 maybe with more or less decimals. How can that be? Anders EE. Right! Use '4^84' Use 4. 84. [Y^x] You have several choises Use the one that you want/need/prefer. Veli-Pekka PS: You may also try the ALG-side or simply use `back-quotas` for direct ALG VP the answer 1/2. Maybe the TI-89 evaluates the corresponding indefinite integral and subtitutes the endpoints (taking limits if needed)? Since its indefinite integration is very fast, that would explain it. Not really answering the question but posing a related one: does the HP49G automatically try for an approximate solution if it can't find an exact one? Also, is there an equivalent for the approx() function on the HP49G? -- Bhuvanesh the answer 1/2. Only for polynomials, if you have numeric factorization activated. For other things you must use ROOT or related commands. Nick. Those don't sound like equivalents. Remember that approx() not only numericalizes exact numbers but also temporarily uses APPROX mode in calculations (that are between the parentheses). Bhuvanesh. leaves the calc in numeric mode. Real mode: Sigma(X=-5,2000,X) EVAL (exact mode): 2.08 seconds Sigma(X=-5,2000,X) EVAL (numeric mode): 14.23 seconds Sigma(X=-5,2000,X) XNUM (exact mode): 14.75 seconds The TI89 spends 3.81 seconds here, by the way... ...but only 7.75 seconds here ;-) really) I have used the %0< command but I do not know how to deal with this, if I run the program on the calculator all I get is an external. Is this system rpl speak for TRUE? or am I way off course. An example would be most helpful. MC numbers this, most The 48/49 will sow external for many pointers that are not USERRPL commands. In your case it may very well be the TRUE pointer. A way to find out is to decompile an example it checks if the number is greater than 0 and does different things to it depending on the outcome :: CK1&Dispatch 1 :: DUP ITE (if then else) :: %8 %+ (executed if true) ; :: xSIN xSQ (executed if false) ; ; ; @ -- ir. P.F.Geelhoed Delft University of Technology Laboratory for Aero & Hydrodynamics Leeghwaterstraat 21, 2628 CA Delft, The Netherlands +31-15-2786656 / +31-15-2782947 (fax) peter@dutw1479.wbmt.tudelft.nl Or set flag -85, then the stack will be displayed with the SysRPL decompiler, and TRUE will display as TRUE (if extable is present), just as with SSTK in Jazz (at least the HP48 Jazz version). Set flag -92 before compiling SysRPL. ((o)) . . Everytime I goto graph, i get invalid ppar and cannot graph a damn thing. Is there a way to reset the ppar to default? I tried the ppar values from the hp48gx manual, but still get an error ( I have a 49 and no info in those manuals) Any help would be greatly appreciated. Brandt It will be automatically recreated with defaults if first purged from the current directory. The default 'PPAR' list is: { (-6.5,-3.1) (6.5,3.2) X 0. (0.,0.) FUNCTION Y } If you copied from a 48gx manual and typed 0 as the resolution instead of 0. and if your 49 was also in Exact input mode at the time, then this would cause Invalid PPAR! The RES command will safely convert even integer type to real, however. . Put 'ppar' on the stack and then purge it. Don't forget you may need to do this for other PPARs in other directories above the current one if you are in a subdirectory when you start, until you find the one(s) that is invalid. Dennis above find Seen: Only the current directory is searched for 'PPAR'; if not already present in the current directory, a new 'PPAR' will be created there if needed, regardless of any others existing in higher directories (any exception would be a bug, so note it if you can find it). Some brand new 49 coding tended to forget the here part of various SysRPL words, causing several problems, but this should not have happened. . was very angry. What do you think? Please, understand me. I still do love HP for those golden years. It might make no sense to you, but I'm sharing it only here to be aware of how can a loyal customer feel. These were the planned headers in the beginning. point? I was right. Right you are. Certainly Carly Fiorina should know the trained skills her employees have. and you still had to search for key pressure. (Thought in that case you'd already filled forms regarding users requirements, inquiries... Oh Lord, I must be so naive !!!) And the only reference that YOU could find to the differences (mentioned), between the CN and the ID calculators (in the more than 96,000 threads in comp.sys.hp48), ... concluded Key pressure on both calcs are about the same. 3 Newtons, to be specific. (???) Later on about 3 N of pressure to depress the key where the older HP Calculators required 1.3 to 1.7 N. N being Newtons, in case you were wondering. See http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3023 for details. I attached the thread, so you can read it again. I hope if you'd forgive me saying so but when you write (or speak) to an engineering student, you should probably know that he may well know the meaning of [N]ewton, probabbly better than the acronyms CN and ID (standing for Chinese and Indonesian) you'd used assuming everyone knows them that way... although It's not hard to figure them out. According to the URL you'd told me about, I've been there. Regarding 49 vs 48, by Per Str.9amgren from Karlstad, Sweden. Per.Stromgren@ein.ericsson.se dated on 1999/10/16 14:35:18, it is another Proof that the 49G keyboard is twice as hard to press as the 48 keyboard, possibly leading to a repetitive stress injury !!! __________________________________________________ http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3023 (...) In order to base things on facts I set out to measure the downforce needed to press a key on the 48 vs the 49 (plus a 32 thrown in for comparison). This is the result: HP48SX, 9 years old, heavy use 1.4 N(*) HP32SII, 4 years old, light use 1.7 N(*) HP49G, brand new 3 N(*) So it's obvious that the 49 _is_ harder to use in a sense! ... I also tried to measure the throw of each key and found that the old rocker type keys (32 and 48 in this case) had the force knee (key click point) at about some 10-20% of the full throw, whereas the 49 keys can be pressed some 50 percent before hitting the knee (no pun intended). This also makes up the feeling of the keys: the new keyboard can be pressed without going into action, the old did not do that. I have found that the keyclick function is useful on the 49; I suppose its there because of the changed keyboard. Question to HP insighters: does the above findings reflect the design implied by user requirements or is this a just a cheaper solution than the old keyboard? Per Str.9amgren, (*)The figures are accurate to about +/- 15%. Method: put the calc on a ordinary 0-1kg kitchen scale, read the weight, press a key and read the weight when the key clicks. Subtract the two numbers and convert to force i Newtons. (...) __________________________________________________ If you need further assistance, ... ??? You must be joking ! You proved both my points, the fact of the key pressure difference needed for ea model and that your excellent new hp web site accurate information, along with the fact that best web reference together with http://www.hpcalc.org/ and that you can be rude enough to answer a former loyal customer the way you did. Tks for nothing, Carlos Can't believe how HP is dealing with her customers. You're so lucky to have a job today. You're doing everything right not to deserve it. ----- Original Message ----- pressure. The only reference that I could find to the differances between the CN and the ID calculators concluded Key pressure on both calcs are about the same. 3 Newtons, to be specific. I am also aware that the HP 49G requires about 3 N of pressure to depress the key where the older HP Calculators required 1.3 to 1.7 N. N being Newtons, in case you were wondering. See http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3023 for details. If you need further assistance, please reply to this message. You may also find technical and troubleshooting information along with software updates, on our HP Customer Care Web site at: http://www.hp.com/ Kellie Customer Solutions support agent for the new HP * Our advice is strictly limited to the question(s) asked and is based on the information provided to us. Problems and solutions may depend on the nature of your system environment and various other parameters that are unknown to HP; therefore, HP cannot assume any responsibility or liability. Please be advised that technical information changes as new data becomes available, therefore, HP recommends that you regularly check our Customer Care Web site for possible updates at: http://www.hp.com/go/support HP shall not be liable for any direct, indirect, special, incidental or consequential damages in connection with the use of this information. Original Message Follows: ------------------------- &group=comp.sys.hp48 and read older postings (as many from the support department should), you'd probably notice the users do notice the difference on pressure needed for its keys (among other user's impressions), between both models, as well as I did. I couldn't find much help (technical and troubleshooting) information, nor recent software updates, on your HP Customer Care Web site at: _____ -----Original Message----- You mentioned it crashes frequently. Is there rhyme or reason in it crashing? Meaning does it happen when you do anything in particular or just random. If you need further assistance, please reply to this message. You may also find technical and troubleshooting information along with software updates, on our HP Customer Care Web site at: Amanda Customer Solutions support agent for the new HP ... _____ Original Message Follows: ------------------------- ... Although this service is provided as a means of technical support for our customers, we appreciate any feedback about our company's products and services. proper individuals. We value your comments. I'm forwarding your question about your HP Calculator to the appropriate group. If your ... Alex Customer Solutions support agent for the new HP ... _____ Original Message Follows: ------------------------- ... As a HP freak, I've been using HP calculators for more than 15 years now. A year ago a friend of mine brought me from Atlanta, Georgia the latest state-of-the-art HP 49G. Although I disliked its design, it is a great machine. Even though it crashes frequently, it still is a good equipment. I hope the management won't close the Calculators department ACO (along the Handhelds area), as I'd heard. I believe the Indonesian version of the 49G I've got, has a much harder pressure needed for its keys than the Chinese recent release, which I also regret haven't bought instead. I used to complain years before, of the quality of argentine dealers (linked with HP Argentina's lack of support). I'm afraid that the whole HP experience faded away along with its superb quality. An (almost) cheap device, even if its branded HP, will still be a CHEAP device. I'm pretty angry with the fact that my trust in HP was betrayed. I don't complain on the recent merge, I've only want the HP quality back, the one that seems gone for good, since the end of the 80's. You may copy this message to Carly Fiorina. In fact, I would like you to do it so. Buenos Aires, Argentina I don't find anything wrong with the 3N keyforce but the required keytravel of almost 50% before the positive registration of a hit is unbearable! Earlier JYA said that HP has considered the 10B II keyboard for the 49G (being internally almost the same) If this is true, then this is what HP should do: Replace the HP 49G keyboard with the HP 10B II and call it HP 49G II The better screen cover, new HP 1.19-7 ROM released as ROM 2.00 and new User's Guide (basically the Urroz Books for the 49G Vol I and II proof-red and updated) and a 5MHz CPU speed to gain 20% more speed plus to enhance the 15360 baud serial to 19200 would do the trick !! People would buy this model (at least I would :) and with good User's Guide even new users would finally get a grip on it's capabilities, and the keyboard which has the click on it, would certainly please people. Veli-Pekka UNITED NATIONS-In an address before the U.N. General Assembly Monday, President Bush called upon the international community to support his U.S. Does Whatever It Wants plan, which would permit the U.S. to take any action it wishes anywhere in the world at any time. http://www.theonion.com/onion3836/bush_seeks_un_support.html -- ir. P.F.Geelhoed Delft University of Technology Laboratory for Aero & Hydrodynamics Leeghwaterstraat 21, 2628 CA Delft, The Netherlands +31-15-2786656 / +31-15-2782947 (fax) peter@dutw1479.wbmt.tudelft.nl Peter... You *do* know that this online newspaper is a hoax newspaper..? The news in it is often inspired by real events, but the reports are completely made-up. I mean, do you really think that US policy would be According to top Bush Administration officials, if the measure is passed by the U.N.Öand possibly if it is notÖthe U.S. would immediately launch invasions of Iraq, North Korea, and Cuba; establish oil-drilling operations in Siberia; install nuclear-missile silos in Mongolia along the Chinese border; make English the official language of the planet; detain thousands of Middle Eastern nationals currently in the U.S. on temporary visas; begin each day with a moment of worldwide prayer; and prohibit Japan and Germany from manufacturing automobiles. Anyway, just for the edification of readers.. theonion.com is a fake online newspaper that is just for humor. It can best be described as a satire newspaper, much in the way that The Simpsons is a satire the archives) about how Microsoft announced the copyrighting of binary 0 and 1. Aaron X X Oh - I think it was for real (or at least close enough) ;-) PS: It's nice to have OT in this NG without JYA complaining :-D Peter. Instead of whining, just show some character and stand up for what you belive. There are opportunities. For example, you can help to rebuilt USSR, or you can speed up the nuclear program of North Korea or Iran. You can also heavily invest into Chinese military industry. If you are really desperate, you can also get some enriched uranium from Dutch, French or German (any country will do) nuclear plant and smuggle it for the Taliban. If you don't lack the courage, you could start popular movement of organizing soldiers of fortune to help Saddam just in case. Of course, you could lead them I',m sure. Those are the methods generally believed to keep Americans at bay. Whining does not work, I guarantee. But of course you must start with the different discussion group. This group happen to attract nerds, who generally are not the muscle - machine gun type of people ready to do revolution, but people, who are interested in a boring technological little marvel that has little to do with politics left or right. Quite often it is a mixture of both, so you risk to just annoy some of them either way. Jack little conditions... Being a calculator lover doesn't mean that none of us can move around from lack of muscular organs. I've been trained as an infantery officer, I've done my share of intensive training and shooting (and i still run my 4KM under 12 minutes). I can see you very well in the foreign legion, getting horny each time you see a soldier with a gun... It seems that you've touched the bottom from intensive I'm sure, you can run from avancing Germans even faster. By the way, why did you gave your Jews to Nazis ? Jack That's totally unfair and has no place in this discussion. Barry I admit, I overreacted, but I disagree, that the Jewish factor does not have a place here. Let me explain. I think, this coming war with Iraq, if happens, has much more to do about future and long term safety of the state of Israel than it has to do with immediate danger to the US. Bush stated that several times in his speeches under the sentence of grave danger to our allies in the region, if anyone here bothered to listen to him instead reading journaslist take on it. There is no coincidence, that current US position on Iraq has full support not only of Ariel Sharon goverment but also public support of Israelis in the Middle East as most pools in Israel indicate. Also the position of Joseph Liberman, US democratinc senator of Jewish descent, that was bitter Bush enemy during election, is now one of the most vocal supporters of the US policy in the region should give any thinking person a clue, what is the big part of this war about. What is interesting, quite opposite to the US, Europe recently demostrated unbeliveably unfair to Jews position about Arab - Israeli conflict in the region, including many outrageous antisemitic acts done across Europe in France, Geramny, Ukraine etc. I understand, that there is large Arab populations in the European countries, especially in France but also in Germany, that create not only different point of view but also force the governments of those countries to take actions that appease those voters however unfair it might be for some foregin people. I can also belive, that many of the cowardish acts of painting swastikas on Jewish propery probably was conducted by some misguided Arab youths living in Europe today. That does not change a fact that one of the European problems today, is almost constant biased pro - Arab treatment of the fighting sides in the Arab - Israeli conflict, as well as currently seen position on the other political problems in the region that assures future weakening of the Israeli position. Interesting is, that the EU public opinion never really cared that much when it was about Bosnia, Kosovo, Panama or Granada, but they suddenly raise all hell when it is Iraq and potentialy huge advantage for Israel future. Preventing the fall of Saddam Hussein and allowing him to pursuit development of nuclear weapons is a dangerously frightening picture of future terrorist suicide nuclear explosion in the Israel that will render entire Palestine unhabitable for decades. It is a very small country. Is it so difficult to imagine some suicidal Islamic extremist misguided by Osama like prophets of hell to obtain nuclear weapon from Arab brothers and matter by the way if Saddam is alive or dead in the future as long as Iraq is governed by him or any other uncontrolable by the world tyrant like him that is capable of gassing even his own people. Now, I have to apologize for the comment to JYA. I belive, he is a very naive young person that don't really understands the real, long term reasons for this war and why there is so much (hard to explain if you don't consider hidden antisemitism) opposition in Europe against this particular war, where it never was such a factor in the past wars, that were not related to the Arab - Jewish conflict. In that sense it was unfair to just make a remark to the long gone past of the European holocaust days, that niether he nor I had any influence. Where we do have influence is today and that is where we differ about positions on this particular conflict altough it is hard to blame personally JYA for being anti Israeli if he doesn't even realize, that this is what this war will be about. Of course, anybody has a right to disagree with me :-) Jack P.S. For the sake of future discussion, assme, I'm Polish. [...] Disagree and thus be antisemitic?? That's not quite what I think Freedom of Speech is defined as. Thomas -- If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S. Truman No. Disagree with the resons I gave for this war. You might for example think, that it is just about the oil or just private Bush vendetta. Jack See another side to the story: http://65.201.198.41/movies/capsules/09141_WEAPONS_OF_THE_SPIRIT.html http://www.chambon.org/weapons.htm http://www.chambon.org/sauvage_bio.htm Another story (Bulgaria): http://www.theoptimists.com Not expressed clearly in the above web pages is the fact that this was done without violence -- not only without doing violence to the occupiers of Le Chambon, but also without suffering much violence from those occupiers either, in comparison to what could have happened and did happen elsewhere. You will note that Pastor Trocm.8e of Le Chambon not only spoke of the responsibility of local Christians to resist the violence that will be brought to bear on their consciences, through the weapons of the spirit, but that this resistance must not take violent form itself; he felt that the taking of a human life is not allowable, even in defense, as mentioned in Le Chambon (La Colline Aux http://www.cjlmilwaukee.org/Video/Video%20Catalog%201/World%20Jewry%20Sect io ns/French%20Jewry.htm What our own world-wide educational movement has to offer is this same arsenal of weapons of the spirit, namely, the culturing of human spirit to rise to its highest nature, and that this is accomplished by nothing more than letting the mind be silent -- no instructions whatsoever on what to do or not to do, no beliefs, no faith, no worship, no religion, no prayer, just being silent -- so silent, it turns out, that physical metabolism is way below that of deep sleep, yet while you are completely awake. If you have ever noticed that sleep knits the ravelled sleeve of care -- that if you have become more easily angered, thinking and acting negatively and with hostility due to fatigue, that a good rest brings a great change to your entire perception, perspective and behavior -- then the possibility should be conceivable that an even greater depth of restfulness might result in an even deeper set of highly positive experiences and behavior, as indeed it does. Deprivation of rest is used in warfare as one of the most potent weapons of destruction of human spirit; we, on the other hand, use the deepest and most concentrated physical and mental rest obtainable, as a weapon of restoration of all that human spirit can rise to. A few minutes' instruction, a few days of practice, and one experiences this rising trend within oneself (other people tend to notice as well). Perhaps not by coincidence, physical health also becomes more robust; the most recent study in the American Journal of Cardiology is just another in the unbroken positive trend (even insurance costs are lowered, just as with non-smokers, etc.) Did I mention that students who have kept this up throughout their school years have tested consistently in the top 1% state-wide (and probably nationally as well)? Is anyone awake to the significance of this? We also have brain imaging specialists, finding that the violent brain and the deeply rested brain are at opposite ends of a scale; any guesses as to what happens in the brain during this deep silence? Perhaps this explains the deep drop from return to criminality, as well as the falling off of drug use, drinking, even smoking, among people released from prison who have been in these programs. Once again, no belief, no faith, no moral instruction of any kind, no fears, no threats -- just knowing how to be completely silent, mentally, while also completely awake; it's so simple and effortless that it's learned in five minutes, and the results are equally spontaneous. If consciousness should by any chance turn out to be a macroscopic quantum phenomenon, like superconductivity or a laser, then it should be possible for its wave function to aggregate more sub-parts into a larger, coherent whole; the observed effects of large groups (hundreds or thousands) bear out this pattern in many cases, where violence noticeably and measurably subsides over some community or region near such groups, as it did in Washington DC in the summer of 1993 (6000 participants). Detecting the cosmic background radiation, from among all the other, louder noise and chatter in the universe, required detectors cooled to near absolute zero in temperature; when a person's mind becomes completely, absolutely quiet (yet awake), then also it experiences some common, quieter field, as is widely reported by experience. Perhaps this is the experience that Einstein referred to, the expanded experience of only Being. Like the coherent region of a superconductor, it is also one in which one experiences no resistance or effort to the flow of one's intentions, intelligence, and creativity. This is the killer weapon -- the quencher of the rise of rage, the best potential source of a spontaneous and growing instinct towards peaceful mutual benefit among all people and nations, rather than the frayed instinct towards mutual destruction which infects all sides and parties to the many world conflicts raging at this moment. When I saw the results as published in Scientifc American magazine in 1972, I went straight to a phone book to look up where to go to learn this; what does it take today to wake up anyone to the reality of its value? Even the unconscious and disorganized brain state of sleep is compared to a higher power by the authors below; what if they had experienced a completely coherent state of even deeper rest, as well? That we are not much sicker and much madder than we are is due exclusively to that most blessed and blessing of all natural graces, sleep. -- Aldous Huxley Sleep that knits up the ravelled sleeve of care, The death of each day's life, sore labour's bath, Balm of hurt minds, great nature's second course, Chief nourisher in life's feast. -- William Shakespeare And if tonight my soul may find her peace in sleep, and sink in good oblivion, and in the morning wake like a new-opened flower then I have been dipped again in God, and new-created. -- D. H. Lawrence http://www.mum.edu . I overreacted and I apologize for this. Jack That's such a sad reaction. I've lost all sympathy for you.. First of all, I was not born at that time and can't be held responsible for what a minority may have done. I could also ask this question: You're Polish right? Why didn't YOU do anything when the Jews of Warsaw were being killed like animals in their getto? How long did it take to the people of Poland to finally fight the Germans back. I'm sure it's all YOUR fault isn't it ? How many Jews died in France vs Poland? Get your fact straight, and go back to where you're good at (if you are): that is automotive, and stop only contributing in this newsgroup when you only have political arguments to make and criticising other people You are probably right. It is just a reaction for the comment of your army service. I'm sorry for overreacting. I don't think, your army service and martial skills simply gives you any special rights. Don't lie. This happen already long time ago when I dared to criticize HP software. Jack in message army service. skills simply He was answering to the Nerd claim. Many of us are nerds, geeks, you name it BUT software. He probably lost most of his sympathy then but now he trutfully has lost it all Sorry about speaking for you this was just to show that it's possible to understand you (and I'm not even born english-speaking :) Although we seem to disagree on the US role of being the supreme court of the world with a total military dictatorship otherwise you seem a decent guy - almost? ;-) Nerd doesn't mean wimp, altough, that is Holywood usually portraits them. It just mean the young men interested in science. I thought, this list should stay on the subject of science, and if somebody really dislike Bush, there are numerous appropriate forums to discuss it or even show some menhood and support physically the opposition to supposedly unfair Bush. Well, I lost, and now you see where it went with this subject on the HP48 list. HP At least we are now even. You highly overrated US. US is not and even cannot be a military supreme court. Just look at Tybet, numerous conflicts in Africa, South America etc. Where US can and should act without paying much attention to the others, is where US or their ally interests are directly challenged. The US action can take any of the forms, and military option is one of this just like EU took action in Yugoslavia without UN approval or continuous Russia problems with their southern parts of the country also fought without any UN approval. Those doesn't seem to upset EU for some reason even when in fact potential Russian war is much more dangerous for the peacefull future of EU. Jack intensive Good. Then you can run the enemy to death ;-) --Lars Trained as an infantry NCO. Iran. really the of you Perhaps we should have just allowed USSR to roll over all of Europe. Then we wouldn't have to listen to this crap, because you wouldn't have the right to speak, nor the time, while waiting in the bread line. Of course we would hear a different whine: why doesn't the USA do something to help us...sob, snivel, tear. No matter what we do, it is wrong in the world's eyes. That's why I think we should ignore them and develop intelligent economically self-sufficient policies, starting with energy, to abandon the mid-east oil completely. Then we won't have to interfere in other people's affairs, and then when they whine, we will truly be free of guilt. Good day! -- ____________________________________ Christopher R. Carlen Principal Laser/Optical Technologist Sandia National Laboratories CA USA crcarle@sandia.gov abandon other of guilt. No matter what anyone does it's wrong in someone's eyes. That doesn't mean that someone is the world. Barry Iran. really the of you Christopher, you are comparing (indirectly) two systems, one of which has already died(?), just because critisism was expressed against Mr. Bush. It was not the US that was criticized but the particular person of the current president. In addition, the above paragraphs of Marcel were meant a bit ironical, weren't they Marcel? You should have noticed by the time, that most of the world doesn't want the help of the USA. Most of the world says, leave us alone. No, this is not true. We always talk about particular events and decisions, not about everything. Hahahahahaha! ROFL! You wil abandon the mid-east oil when there is nor any drop of it any more. Wanna bet? guilt. A world power will *always* interfere with other people's affairs. Too much interests involved. Have a good day too. Nick. This is simply because the US generally does not use the right approach, not because the world doesn't need its help. Being the world's superpower (at least financially), the US is duty-bound to participate more in international affairs, whether or not it realizes it. One of the first priorities for the US should be disarmament -- it should make agreements with other countries for simultaneous disarmament. -- Bhuvanesh Well, Personally, living in the US, I would feel much better if they starting carying out this plan in their own back yard! I do not feel secure when I see guns at the back of the pickup of the car in front of me! secure Interesting, I feel perfectly secure knowing I have my own. Maybe you should own one. Matt Florida, USA alone. Bravo! *That* is a good step towards peace and freedom. But how can this step be stepped? Nick. That exactly, what US do want from Irak. Don't they ? Just the rest of the world prefer Saddam to gas his own citizens and neighbours if needed. I guess, they probably let Saddam to do so, because Saddam is their biggest hope, he might be able to gas Israel too in the future. Jack If you believe that that you're clearly very naive. There's no doubt that the *official* reason is getting rid of some weapons that may exist. Even if Irak complied exactly to UN, US will still attack. They will just find some conditions impossible for Irak to accept (otherwise they lose face and dignity) to justify their actions. My personnal belief is that the US wants to get rid of their dependance with Saoudia Arabia. So far they can't because they are the main petrol provider. Once the current Irak's government has been ousted, some controlled by the CIA will be in place it will be much easier to manage the conflicting situation with SA. There are proof that Saoudia Arabia is the main and key financer of Al Qaeda. But now, they can't bite the hand that feed them weapons face with provider. the key I have heard so many times in my many years that the US is going to overthrow some poor small country for their oil. The US has not done so yet and never will. The same reason was given during the Gulf War. This is a lame excuse. The US does not need the oil of Saudi Arabia. These two countries have been allies for reasons besides oil. There are many Central American countries and Russia that have vast oil reserves. So does the US! Saddam Hussein has tried to overthrow Iran and Kuwait. Who's next? If we (this includes you too) allow Saddam Hussein to obtain nuclear weapons, he will use them to hold Israel and Saudi Arabia hostage. He will not hesitate to make this weapons available to terrorist groups to use against my country and yours too. People need to pull their heads out of the sand, quit taking what these liberal newspapers and televisions are saying as the truth, listen to BOTH sides of the story and THEN come to a consensus. Do we have to wait to see a mushroom cloud in one of my or your cities to convince you that Saddam Hussein is an insane madman. When is that last time one of your leaders poisoned thousands of your fellow citizens? The world blames the US for the starvation of the children of Iraq after the Gulf War, but tell me how many billion dollar industrial complexes, that he chooses to call private palaces, has he built at the cost of billions of dollars. This man doesn't give a damn about the citizens of Iraq. And he doesn't give a damn about you or me either. You can bet the US is going to take this man out. Not just for the safety of the US, but the world. This has nothing to do with loosing facing or dignity. Of course, we can all walk around like a bunch of little school boys with our hands in our pockets, kicking cans and whistling in the air as if nothing is wrong.... Danny the key This Probably true. What I think is more likely is that they would install stooges like the UN to protect the country/people. been countries The US is not self sufficent. I believe that Iraq has the largest reserves. No doubt a pure conincidence. A bientot Paul -- Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth) What happens if you have lead in your pants as well as lead in your pencil? Funny you should say this but actually quite recently. The French health minister (forgotten his name) was prosecuted just last year for knowingly distributing HIV infected blood products to haemophiliacs. -- Bruce Horrocks Hampshire England bh@granby.demon.co.uk But he got off (in fact, there were about a dozen people prosecuted). Obviously he could afford a better lawyer than a run of the mill criminal. A bientot Paul -- Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth) What happens if you have lead in your pants as well as lead in your pencil? cities to I think this is a shaky argument in the US. One of the important principles in criminal law in the US is that you can use deadly force to defend yourself or others in the event of imminent attack. (imminent: ready to take place). When the attacker is right there pointing a gun and threatening to shoot. You can not kill someone because you believe that they will harm you at some future time. Our own laws call that murder. When we look at the same situation on a international scale should we ignore the principles we believe in at home? Do we apply justice as we see it only to ourselves? Barry Criminal law does not apply to war anyway, but... Our law allows to remove criminal from the society prior to commiting a crime if there is sufficient proof that the criminal is in the process of commiting the crime. Yo uhave no argument. Jack If weapons, against Following the same argument: Saddam has used chemical weapons before, so he will use them again is pretty lame. in the same way you could then easily say: US is the only country who has ever used nuclear weapon on civilians, therefore they are going to use it again one day. US with their veto right has effectively denied UN resolutions way more often than any other country combined. BOTH I don't think anybody has their head in the sand... War has never been a solution and will never be. last the he And I can see you've learnt the arguments of your administration very well. Good job. Saddam is everything but stupid, otherwise he wouldn't still be there. Remember that it's the US and country like France, England who put him in place when all western countries were scared of Iran. The Taliban was put in power by the US too until they realized their mistake.. Unfortunately, there's little doubt that how the US constantly interferes with all local governments is very much responsible to what happened The Germans and Japanese certainly look docil enough now. Seems to have solved something in that case. The difference between our use of the atom bomb in WWII and the Iraqi government using chemical weapons on its own also is about 180 degrees out. I don't remeber the French talking about losing another MILLION men on the beaches of Japan. The Iraqis tested these things on people fighting back with stones. Please, Matt I'll remember this statement the next time Germany overruns France. Your freedom to criticize the US is due to the fact that the US fought World War II. My Dad flew B-17 and B-24 missions over there. He never questioned or complained about whether the war was the correct solution. A British cousin of mine was killed when his plane was shot to peices. calculating monster. He sees himself as a modern Nebuchadnezzar who can control the entire Middle East, with all bowing before him. He has never hesitated to attack when he felt the time was right, be it Iran or his own people. It is only a matter of time before he strikes again. The current US government will now take the historic step to preempt this horror by removing this evil from power. After this is done, you can go back and lead your normal lives free from the threat. And of course, continue to bash the US... J.C. Randerson Pueblo, Colorado ...War has never been a solution and will never be.... He rose to the occasion demanded by those times, but war today and in the future will not be the same. War was a horrible thing to be in then, it was a horrible thing in the 1860's (U.S. Civil War, fought between countrymen, killed more of them than all wars since), it was horrible all the way back to pre-history, but now, never can so few cause so much suffering, so quickly, to so many, as one missile or one person with a briefcase now can do (which means that you can't now really end a war at all). So Long, Mom (A Song For World War III) http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/solongmo.htm Better to elevate humanity to a more dignified state, and better and more efficient weapons of the spirit are now also available to do it, though they aren't fully deployed yet. A human being is part of a whole, called by us the universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures, and the whole of nature in its beauty... We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive. - Albert Einstein http://www.mum.edu . Don't be so harsh. When it will happen, I propose to dump from couple of our planes some propagand pamphlets on Germany asking German people to stop behaving like that immidietly :-) That is how some of European powers helped my country in 1939. Jack I had meant to avoid this nasty conversation, but I can't hold back with these remarks having been made. so he has it Gene: Saddam used chemical weapons on his own people, by the way. Lots of people didn't want the US to kick Saddam out of Kuwait, after all, it's such a small country. BOTH Gene: I take great exception to this. Thousands and thousands of Americans died saving Europe's collective butt, if you'll pardon my phrase, in WWI AND WWII. When facing a tyrant, WAR is many times the only way. Would you rather be a Nazi today? Probably not. War is the reason you have the freedoms you have now. WAR is, sadly enough, OFTEN THE ONLY SOLUTION. How can you of this statement of yours. Gene: Perhaps the Americans should remember that the next time Europe needs of western Europe until the Soviet Union collapsed. Now, freedom has a chance even in the countries of the old Iron Curtain. Your comments are what fuel isolationist thoughts in the US, whereby people wonder why we should sacrifice to save people who despise us. * My comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the views of my employer * AND rather Of course, the US citizens did all of this purely out of altruism. As has been mentioned in a different thread, the Americans single handedly won the war (the roles of the British Empire and the Soviet Union are forgotten). Between the fall of France and the invasion of the USSR, the East, the war was all over bar the shouting. Not many Americans have any idea just how immense the Red Army was: several *hundred* divisions (by comparison, the US sent about 10 divisions to the Gulf). Hollywood keeps on making films about the Normandy invasion, the Battle of the Bulge and the crossing of the Rhine, but these were small fry compared to the battles for Kursk and Kharkov. The US did play a major role, but the Soviets played a much bigger one. We hear repeatedly Merkins coming out with we came over and saved your butts, you'd now be under the Nazis if we hadn't. It's easy to say such carry on. In that case, it's quite possible that the USSR would not have been able to withstand the Germans alone. In this scenario, the USA would attacked the USSR before clearing up in the Balkans, North Africa and invading the UK. Again, would the USA have gone it alone against the Germans? As for the first world war, the Axis powers were on their uppers by 1917. They did have a bit of a boost following the communist revolution in Russia, but otherwise their economy was exhausted. The US helped finish things off, but by then the brunt of the fighting was already over. interferes needs what Again, as has been said before, it's all black and white to you. Do you really wonder why people in places like Honduras, Nicaragua, Laos, Cambodia, Sudan and Somalia aren't too keen on Americans. And here in Europe, we have a free press, and we can read the stories about things like the Iran-Contra scandal. How come the good guys were peddling drugs to provide arms to terrorists? And the humanitarian aid to Somalia - anyone with half a brain could tell that the USA wanted to have a presence close to the Gulf to protect its oil interests. Coincidentally, the Somalians no longer needed any aid after Saddam attacked Kuwait and the USA was allowed to have bases in Saudi Arabia. A bientot Paul -- Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth) What happens if you have lead in your pants as well as lead in your pencil? so has it such Using conventional/chemical/what so ever weapons on other people is even worse. these a Americans AND rather you Europe's collective butt is still grateful, but this doesn't mean that it will never f**t when it disagrees. ;-) Put in words (instead of tones coming out of that collective organ ;-)), many people in Europe just disagree that this time is also one of the times when war is .9cnavoidable. interferes needs what It is no use living in the past and always refering to the help of the U.S. We should move forward. Besides, Gene, it is between friends where the biggest verbal fights occure. I wouldn't go out and argue with somebody I dodn't care about. So, disagreeing with the U.S. government, does by no means shows that Europe wants the U.S. isolated or stigmatized or anything in that direction. Nick. anything is untrue? There are times when War has improved things, are there not? We don't really know what the world will be like in 20 years, assuming Saddam stays where he is unmolested, do we? Will it be good? Will it be awful? We don't really know what the world will be like in 20 years, assuming Saddam is removed, do we? Will it be good? Will it be awful? We do, however, know that the world today is much better for having had We do as well know that the world today is a better place for not being run as Stalin's Soviet Union was, don't we? My highest regret is that this better world has come with such suffering. I do however know that there would have been more suffering with the alternative. Will that be the case this time? I don't know. Gene Only when the warriors learned something from the wars. run And we know that it still can be thousand times better, if we get the necessary intelligence to face tyrants with other more powerful yet less catastrophical means than wars and bombs. I We'll see. Or perhaps we'll not be able to see because we are extincted at our own decision. Poor animals, how did they deserved that? Nick. Frankly, I take exception to this whole [OT] conversation. I come to check each other? so has use it such these a Americans AND rather you ashamed interferes needs out what This all is bull !!! WHY ???? The one-and-only-problem is: US does what it wants US does not listen to UN (nor EU) Oh, yes - it's nice to get help when asked but what if everybody else says: Let's wait and see what the inspection tells us Well - go a head and make my day: Nuke the Saddam !! And you forgot to get Tokyo, so you can put one there too. Better late than never! And the Soviets? Ah - they are basically same as the modern Russians. SO give us some debris in Finland, too. We don't mind - as long as the bad guys die!!! GGRRRRR - I thought that only the French can be arrogant but the opinions of the yanks here make me turn tricolor !!! Veli-Pekka - I think I still somehow like some things - the good things - about the US of A - what they are??? so has use it such these a Americans AND rather you ashamed interferes needs out what As every country does, we will exert force on the world proportional to (and in many cases less than) our proportionate power in the world community. Discussions whether US actions are right or wrong seem legitimate. Proposing that somehow the US is subservient to or beholden to Europe or some other group that may or may not have influence or direct authority seems futile. Proposing that, at this time in history, if Europe says No the United States should go home with it's tale tucked is also ridiculous. What the European and world community is going to have to get used to is that the United States is here to stay. We have just as much right and validity to operate in proportion to our ability. Future superpowers will also have to weigh the question of action not just based on the ability but also on the need. This need may not always match the need of it's neighbors. There are no easy answers to these questions of how, why, and when. It serves no use to stir up hot rhetoric in dealing with these issues. Many Americans are uncertain about our role in the world community. Our country constantly struggles to decide what is right and what isn't. America is trying to take the best course, and it only strengthens the decision making process to discuss openly these issues IN A RESPECTFUL MANNER. However, I would advise against such wasteful criticism such as America is evil. or America is like WWII Germany. or anything else that people have been saying in their passion over this or any other issue. Not only does it stifle true discussion on an important issue such as How should superpowers conduct themselves in the world community?, but it also makes those that might even tend to disagree with America's actions to reject the notion simply because of the absurd ad hominem. Now that my two cents worth on proper conduct in debate are over, I'd like to just offer some observations on the current Iraq situation. 1. The United States is in a unique position in the world to handle issues that affect the world community at large. The UN, even though it's concept is good and must be continued, has proved to be largely incapable of handling even minor (but dangerous) dictators and problems. They have a certain degree of ability in spotting problems, but beyond that their power is quite limited. President Bush did not rather He offered to gather a coalition to do what the UN has ALREADY said that it wanted. 2. The United States, as a whole, has every right to look after it's own interests, as every country does and should. Sometimes these interests may conflict with the interests of other nations. This is natural. It can also be healthy. It is not greedy or hypocritical to have self interest as a large part of any nation or person's decision making process. 3. The United States, as a whole, should constantly weigh it's self interests with the interests of it's neighbors, other nations, allies, and enemies. This should not be done selfishly, but with a large degree of respect and desire to promote the welfare of all. However, other countries should conduct a proportionate level of respect, interest, and care in dealing with the world community. 4. While there are many similarities in thought and actions among the United States and Europe, the most fundamental difference is philisophical. The United States was founded on the concept of Equality of Opportunity... not of being. Europe has largely been influenced, through war and constant breakdown, by the very poor philisophical concept of Equality of Being. Fundamentally this struggle will continue. The United States does not see itself as an equal player that is required to operate only as much as the least can operate. It, in fact, has been given equal opportunity, but has achieved success (rightly or wrongly) after much work. With it's status, there are certain responsibilities and/or priveledges that other countries may or may not possess. 5. Finally, I feel that the United States should operate to find a solution to Iraq with or without Europe. However, regardless of the sentiments of many in this respectable newsgroup, I believe that when the dust settles Europe will support our actions and the results (the means and the end). The fear of us doing it completely alone is NOT the same as us actually doing it completely alone. We will have support. It will be substantial. There will be dissenters, but their existence does not mean that we did it alone. America going it alone in this case is a hypothetical that will never be. Why dont you guys start a newsgroup comp.sys.politicsargument?? I thought this was supposed to help me learn my calculator??? George Bush by the way, I am American, and i want my pres. to be able to say nuclear, instead of nucular. I don't agree with this. Boy ohh boy do I agree with this. Later, Matt It's just a way of keeping ourselves occupied until HP release some new calculators. -- Bruce Horrocks Hampshire England bh@granby.demon.co.uk LOL! Bruce, changing your last name doesn't fool me! Veli-Robin 6) US as a nation (including it's leadership) should take criticizism as a hint to correct it's actions and think about what went wrong and why even major Nato countries don't comply this time?!! AND remember it's own constitute: Freedom of speech I find it confusing when criticism of the way speech is being conducted from a non-military/non-governmental member of society is greeted with cries of freedom of speech. The suggestion for respectful dialog is in no way intended to be a call for censorship. Freedom of speech is not a call for freedom of ignorance or freedom of disrespect to fellow members of society. With that said, I don't believe that you are either ignorant nor do I believe that you have a general disrespect for me simply because I'm an American. I do believe, however, that the climate in which debate has been taking place has increasingly followed the lead from television. This atmosphere has created a psychological tendency among most people to be sensationalist, sarcastic, and emotional in their discussions of issues that require reason, logic, and empericism. Next, criticism should not be taken as obviously right, and therefore when criticism comes neither the nation nor the leadership should immediately correct it's actions and think about what went wrong. Instead criticism should be welcomed as an open forum for debate, or in some cases ignored if the criticism is thoughtless or violently provided. I, however, do not believe that most members of the US are ignoring current criticisms or, rather, concerns that other nations may raise. Certainly the US has it's militants and it's isolationists like every nation, but mostly in the case of Iraq I would argue that the administration, the news, and the nation has been welcoming debate back and forth on the issue. In fact, I've heard of several proposals and discussions with certain nations to aleviate and work through their concerns... most notably Russia, who fears that an invasion of Iraq could mean non payment of debts. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Erek Hutto Electrical Engineering Colorado School of Mines ----------------------------------------------------------- X Certainly not !!! 1) Q: Bush generally? A: No !!! 2) Q: Bush in this case? A: Yes!!! The same goes for the US Governement AND this is the case: Bombing Iraq civilians while Saddam zips his wine in his safe place deep underground smiling about the stupid US and sometimes pissed off thinking about the lost nerv-gas factories. It's better than one man dies, rather than the whole nation perishes Make a open contract for a million dollars, it's cheaper and gives us at least one Saddam-look-alike less....? been that Could be... current Certainly OK maybe you are or are not privy to, I see Iraq and a number other states as sponsers of this madness that happened on 9/11. This is in addition to the UN violations. If you don't believe the US in this case, go back and as the Cheks. They discovered the most direct Iraqi involvement. Other monetary links have been discovered, though they are harder to make easily understood. I will protect myself regardless of your thoughts in the manner in which I (and my country-men) feel appropriate. This is not *just* about the UN violations but a physical attack upon my home soil. If you can not see this, I am sorry. You and the rest of the world are irrelevent in that case. In the case of the UN violations your country, and every other member of the UN is certainly welcome to add your thoughts, and I hope we will respect them. This is as long as those wishes are also in the best interest of protecting my country. I presume that you would feel the same if 3000 of your country-men lie dead. Matt I perfectly well realize this: The civilians of your country were attacked and killed, right? The attacker was a terrorist group, the leader was ObL, ok? Now you plan to attack Saddam at Iraq, yes? Saddam is accused of financing the terrorist and not giving free access for the investigators, huh? So - even if other nations in an organization - the UN, where you have joined free-willingly - opposes it (or maybe not, but you're not listen to others or play by the rules) you're gonna bomb the civilians of Iraq like you did in Afghanistan, killing more than died in the Towers Destruction. Well - to me that looks like another terrorist group/country/leader. Find a better solution! Killing for you anger only leads to the Dark Side and forever it will rule your destiny... PS: Are you already using the ALG Side of your HP 49G ?? dead. Please then do as much to persuade everyone else to stop all killing, period; stop the Palestinians as well as any Israelis, stop all extremists, who evidently continue their plots to do ever more severe terrorist acts, and stop the screaming goaders on the sidelines, some of whom are writing here. In the face of attacks, overt hostility, and continuing plots, you can not expect nations to cease using force to protect themselves, although this can lead to a cycle that is difficult to break. Our method is to decrease the flammability of the human mind. This requires no killing, no goading, no suffering; it also gives everyone more ability to do better and feel better in life, and it works. It has decreased national conflicts many times, and if you want to blame anyone for ongoing suffering and death, try blaming those who won't use an antidote which works, because their closed minds simply aren't willing to recognize it. http://www.fek.su.se/Home/gus/PAPERS/Tmmgmtte.htm http://www.fek.su.se/Home/gus/PAPERS/Towards%20transcendence.htm http://www.alltm.org/pages/crime-arrested.html http://www.mum.edu/tm_research/univs_jrnls.html http://www.alltm.org/research.html http://www.mum.edu More than 42 studies conducted during the past 25 years have verified the field effects of consciousness. More than 500 research studies have been conducted, including at over 80 major educational institutions around the world, on the physiological, psychological, and sociological effects of the TM program, making it perhaps the most intensively studied technology in the field of human development. . Firstly, when you make the case that going into war costed more lives than the event on September 11th, I entirely agree. In fact, I understand your concern over that issue. It's a unique perspective and an important perspective. However, I feel to some extent that it can be improperly polarized by the use of rhetoric and colorful language. I also think that some of the deeper questions that previous generations sought to answer is being lost in the very real and very right concern for the lives of innocent people. These questions involve philisophical questions of Why go to war? and What requires action? civilizations have risen and fallen into oblivion. This great thread of history has lead, I believe, to some important modern philisophical concepts involving war and civilization. The unique American perspective is that all men are created equally. Government, indeed human society, is organized to establish justice, to insure tranquility, to provide for common defense, to ensure general welfare, and to secure liberty for us and for future generations. These fundamental responsibilities of government and society are inevitably in conflict with those forces that seek to oppose this, and historically many cases find the only immediate and necessary solution to fufilling these responsibilities being to meet force with force. Almost always, this force for force response requires great sacrifice, and in very many cases these sacrifices are taken, in part, upon by people that neither understand these principles nor rightly deserve to take these burdens in the traditional sense of what is fair. In fact, it's not a perfect system, nor is any system. However, this does not deter my feeling that we are, in a sense, on the right track to a better world. THIS is the conservative philosophy that Great Britain started and the United States fleshed out in the latter half of the last millenium. While we have not achieved some form of utopian armchair philosophy that requires no guns and no death, we are in fact on a long thread of human tradition and history that seeks to build upon it's past achievements and understandings to ensure a better future. This will not happen overnight, nor will some brilliant philosopher or charismatic politician come up with some brilliant radical change that fixes all over night. We aren't going to wake up in this current conflict with Iraq and terrorists to find out suddenly in a great epiphany that we no longer need war or threat of war to ensure long term tranquility, defense, welfare, and liberty. Indeed we will and STILL ARE trying necessary alternatives to war with Iraq. We've been trying for over ten years. In the case of Afghanistan, many innocent people died, yes. In fact, many Americans died. So, why would a civilized and advanced nation knowingly kill it's own people if it was only, to use your Star Wars reference, going to the Dark Side? Why did the world support such action? For individuals opposed to the general consensus of political leaders and the world community on this issue, I would hope that they would pause to consider if certain issues and circumstances might deserve a higher degree of concern and importance than our own lives and/or the lives of others. This is not to say that we should allow ideology to rule over human lives. In fact, we should always be diligent that we never act without proper cause or careful consideration of human lives and rights, and I think it is THAT very consideration that made it so easy to act in Afghanistan... KNOWING that in any war there are necessarily accidental casualties of war. Now, surely you or anyone that might bother to read this are entitled to your own opinions on this issue. However, I hope that at the least the rhetoric on either side sees that the goal is essentially the same: to increasingly provide a better world in which to live. We may differ on what this world should look like, or how it should be achieved. I don't think that anyone's evil or un-American or a terrorist just because they do or do not want to go to war. I still believe there is a clear cut right thing to do in this case with Iraq. Saddam must be eliminated. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Erek Hutto Electrical Engineering Colorado School of Mines Sedit qui timuit ne non succederet. He who feared he would not succeed sat still. -Horace Semper ubi sub ubi. Always wear underwear. -Anonymous ----------------------------------------------------------- which UN Erek, You are an eloquent, well spoken individual. And to your last oration I say a hearty Amen. Matt Whenever some subset of the human race develops a what they believe to be a superior military technology the urge for them to conquer the rest of the human race becomes irresistable. Matt's jingoism, unfortunately, is just the latest expression of America's turn at empire-building. Tom Empire building?!!!? I have NO interest in having Iraq, or any other nation, become the 51st state. On the contrary, I think that the _best_ solution is for the people there to rise up and remove this guy before he allows others to hurt a whole bunch of people. That would be great. I would be just as happy to see the entire middle east wake up one day and be american tolerant. I don't see this happening any time soon. We have a solution, it is possibly not the best one, but it is a solution. I have heard a great deal of banter about semi-solutions that rely on trusting someone who cannot be trusted. Jingoism? I often look to other countries for ideas on better ways to do things. In many, many fields. Japanese and European design and construction. French government design. The list is endless. In this case, I have heard no one come up with a solution that is adequate to protect me and my own. By all means come up with a better solution. Waiting people who are clearly nuts to come to their senses is, well, nuts. On the other hand, I have seen some of the worst run countries on the planet, first hand, and we compare quite well. So maybe I should be pleased about some of my countries plans and ideas. Are we perfect, never. I hope we will continue to take the best from other places and make it better. With this, Folks, I leave you. It seems doubtful that either of us will be convinced this way or that. I wish you well in your endevours, and I hope that history judges me and mine with dignity and honor. We will do what we must. Matt I tend to look upon this hatred for our ideals as a cancer. The cancer is often in more than one place. To defend yourself from the cancer you must remove it entirely. In this case the cancer is terrorism that is conducted en masse(as the French might say) and likely will happen again with more destructive tools than the world has ever seen before. Would you have me wait for Mr. Hussain to finally get a small nuke, release it to terrorists willing to die with it, and turn all of Manhattan into rubble, killing a million or so in the process? The only way I see to prevent this is to remove Hussain and educate his people. This will have casualties. Most probably the Iraqi people will suffer some of those casualtys. If you are asking me to chose between them and Us, I choose us. I hope that the dividends of that suffering are and oppertunity to bring a better, more placid government to the people of that region such that they might better be equiped to work with the world and enjoy what it has to offer, as I do. This has little to do with anger. This has to do with horror. I am afraid that one day I will arise to a world without a New York, or a Miami, or a San Fransico. Likely that those would be great targets for someone with a CBR weapon. If this did occur, I can almost gaurantee that many more will die than in the overthrow of Hussain. You have nothing invested in this, so I can't expect you to understand. But what if you woke up to a world without Helsinki.... None of us can risk this. It is simply to great a threat. If you cannot convieve of this happening, then I believe that you have too long looked Mao Zedung may have had more than 45 million people killed (but at least 20 million for certain) at his different orders, and certainly not to bring education and freedom to the masses. Do I trust a man like that? No. I'm sorry, I can't. And I see Hussain as just such a man. He has grown more intolerant as he has gotten older, and the recent history of his country seems to bear this out. No matter which weapon is used, the result will be more than any country can bear. If you think the US is acting out of anger now, wait until someine hits us with a bio-weapon that kills 100000. Or a nuke which kills a cool million and destroys god-knows-how-much property. I will say this, if Hussain would submit fully to the inspectors, I would not have this problem. He is crazy and thusly cannot be trusted. As most have to agree, he simply won't come to his senses. This is tragic, but as I said before. Them or US? You know the answer. Matt That perception of them or me is part of the destructive cycle, wherein each side deliberately destroys the other, also cooperatively and interactively destroying itself. It is possible to choose to save everyone, but only by calming the inflammation of minds on all sides, then by starting a different cycle of mutual reciprocal benefit. You can not achieve this by just doing nothing, but also you can not achieve this by continuing to destroy; what remains is to take a completely different approach, which in fact is available, but is unfortunately being ignored by hotheads, because there aren't enough cool heads. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live. ÖDeuteronomy 30:19 . Yes, and you're being melodramatic. The Brazilians believe, using the same type of silly, hyper-emotional arguments, that they made a mistake in giving up development of nuclear weapons. If they develop nukes, there is no reason the rest of the world won't, too. If you really want to get scared, consider that Pakistan has nuclear weapons, and has a large population of America-hating religious fanatics who would just love to take over their government, and send the U.S. a doomsday gift. Tom same giving reason consider send Melodramatic? Possibly. If it doesn't happen, sure. If it does, boy are we all in heap of trouble. Your Brazilian argument is interesting, but there government doesn't seem to foster raw hatred of my way of life in the school system. I am, legitimately so, concerned about Pakistan. I hope that Musharraf can maintain control of those systems. I am equally afraid that Isreal may let loose of one of their missles. I hope you are right and I am wrong. Matt X X As I said before: Find a better solution than bombing. Hussein will certainly be safe from bombs even if Finns would bombing Iraq. Only the civilians suffer like in the US. Is this really what you want? A revenge? You should be after that Saddist Hussein, not the poor people of Iraq suffering from the gas of a tyrant. You don't need anyone's permission to get rid of one sweinehund. Heck, JFK was sniped with a rifle. (I like that president like MM :) Swede prime minister, peace nobelist Olof Palme was shot with a handgun at close range here in peaceful Scandinavia. During the cold war days US & CCCP perfected wet jobs. You could even leave that to Israel, they are quite experts, too. They never arrest hijackers - just terminate. Veli-Pekka PS: These ideas doesn't necessarily reflect my own choice of action, but are far better quick solution than bombing. Sorry you feel this way, VP. You'll note that I did not feel the need to use add slurs against the US by invoking the Tokyo and Russian images below. America was attacked by terrorists who were shielded by the government of Afghanistan. America responded and now the people of Afghanistan have the chance to live free. I imagine most of them will be grateful for this chance. Their women and girls are able to go to school now and be educated. Would you prefer they be kept ignorant? Saddam has already indicated that he cares nothing for his neighbors, since he invaded Kuwait. Despite many countries' protest in 1990, America and a coalition drove him out, freeing the Kuwaiti's. They are very grateful to be free. Would you rather they have remained occupied? Saddam was put under many UN Security council resolutions, one of which required weapons inspection. He has been in violation of that resolution since he kicked the inspectors out several years ago. Suddenly, now, when the US is threatening military action, he decides to allow them in again. Would he had done so without the threat? Surely not. The resolutions, which are still in place by the way, require un-impeded inspections. Saddam has now said that they are not allowed to enter certain sites. Doesn't sound un-impeded to me - hence the realization that new inspections are won't be REAL inspections. Therefore, the US position is that Saddam must go and his people allowed the chance to live free. Saddam executes his political opponents. Presumably you are not in favor of that. The people of Iraq are not governed by the consent of the governed but by a dictator who has shown many times he is in pursuit of weapons of mass death. Should they be allowed to live free like the Afghanis are now? If not, why not? How about the plight of the Kurds? If it were not for the No-Fly zone, Saddam would have exterminated them by now. I suppose the US is evil for protecting them? You also seem to forget that Great Britain supports the US position. You, and perhaps your country and others, can feel free to disagree with the position and plans of the US and its allies. You are free to do so. its face. Without the US entering WWII, the French would not be free. The horrors committed at the camps were ended. Presumably, war didn't solve any of that. Do you care to discuss the validity of his statement or continue to make remarks as you have done? Sigh. Gene * My remarks and opinions are mine and mine alone. They do not represent my company's. * with before, who use of to been a Americans WWI you should the use educated. Some years ago it was the U.S. which supported Taliban. Didn't the U.S. at that time know that the Taliban wouldn't allow girls to get education? If the U.S. knew, then why was the Taliba good at that time and bad now? since be Criticizing the current decision, doesn't mean that someone also says that everything else has been done wrong. So, if he agrees, what is the reason for further threatening? foreign land and not acting like Terminators. be his The U.S. will never remove the regime of Hussein. We will talk after 10 years when Saddam still rules and gets bombed every now and then. Execution of political opponents can be carried out in many ways. One of them is killing (Saddam-Method). The other is letting the media organize a shows and broadcast old photographs and find out that someone has done this and that and publish it in the newspapers. (U.S.-Method) shown While the U.S. doesn't possess such things. The Afganis living free now? You believe that? What about Tibet? Why is the caring U.S. so indifferent in this case? The government, not the prople. any Nobody can say what would have been. In general the solutions that a war gives are short time solutions. We should try to give solutions that last longer. Also sigh. Nick. of the educated. Gene: At the time, they were supported to try to help them get the Soviets OUT of Afghanistan. Geopolitics suggested that they would be better than having more Soviet domination. I don't know if the US rulers knew how the Taliban set up schools at the time. Why were they bad now? Because they supported and harbored terrorists who attacked US civilians. has sound be his Gene: I will agree with you that if Saddam or someone who runs Iraq the same way he does is still in power in Iraq in 10 years, that this will all have been a waste. Saddam needs to go and the ability to develop weapons of mass death must be removed from someone who used Chemical weapons against his own people. Gene: In one of them, someone is disgraced because of past behavior of their own choice. In the other, someone is dead. I see a black-and-white difference here too. shown Gene: The US, despite the opinions of some here, does not act like a madman. We don't use these against our own people. We used them once before most of us here were born. We can feel free to discuss that decision if you like, but that doesn't mean today we are rushing to use these against civilians. Do you really think Saddam won't? Gene: Afghani women are able to move about in public, they are able to attend school, there are no summary executions by the government. This is certainly a good first step. Hopefully, they will enjoy greater freedoms in the future too! on The any Gene: The solution from WWII seems to have lasted quite a while. Of course, most of central Europe. I suppose that would have been better? Nope. Without WWII, there would have been no Jews left in Europe. War has solved many of those problems. * My thoughts and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not reflect my employers * So the US supports terrorists, oh sorry, freedom fighters, when it suits them. A bientot Paul -- Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth) What happens if you have lead in your pants as well as lead in your pencil? government Soviets You really believe this? The taleban didn't change from good to bad just recently. They didn't act any different, when the US have been training them and equipped them with weapons. The talebans and their ideas about live seem to coming right from stoneage but this didn't seem to bother the US some years ago. Now Mr. Bush suddenly cares very much about those poor people there and those bad, bad talebans. You really believe these dumb (I hope no taleban reads this) peoples are involved in the events of 11. September last year? I have some doubts about this. sound won't and same have mass own US used chemical weapons too. Ever heard of operation orange? And US soldiers have been exposed to chemical weapons in some tests as well (in the 50's). Oh just to mention it, the soldiers involved in this tests didn't know about the chemical weapons. So US did (almost) the same to some of their own people some time ago. So what do you expect from a dictator like Saddam Hussein? their madma n. of civilians. Why should he? Saddam Hussein is a dictator and wants to stay in power. He could have used chemical weapons in the last gulf war. He had a lot of B and C weapons at this time and also the experience to use it. But he didn't. Why? I think that he knew exactly that if he should use chemical weapons against Israel then Israel would strike Iraq massively with nuclear weapons. Who else than Israel should he strike? So please explain us why Saddam Hussein should use this weapons (if he still haves them) just know. And no I don't think that US gov. takes much care of (foreign civilians of course, so don't worry) civilians. Have you had a look in Afghanistan. Only propaganda? in The taleban have been acting there allready some years and US (beside some US NGO's) didn't care much about women and anything related to human rights in Afghanistan. US made even a deal with the talebans to build a oil pipeline a few years ago. Later the talebans refused this deal. So even the war in Afghanistan could be related to oil. After all most of the terrorist of 11. september 2001 are from Saudi Arabia or from Egypt. So why even bombing Afghanistan? Does this sound a bit sarcastic to you? the untrue solve course, Without of Saving the Jews was (unfortunately) _no_ goal for the US at this time. The US did knew very early (through refugees, and pictures from the air) about the concentration camps in germany and other parts of Europe but didn't take any action about it. But of course the US troops (the Russians too?) saved a lot of lives by freeing the concentration camps. Roman government Soviets Which for me can be used to conclude: 1) Either the whole apparatus that helped arming and training the Taleban was short sighted and didn't know what it was doing. In this case, why Çshould I believe that it does now? 2) Or the only thing that plays a role is totally rotten calculations about what can be won if I help somebody no matter if this somebody is going to kill, destroy and terrorize. That means: For the U.S. government there seem to exist two kind of bad guys. a) The bad guys that are good to us. These are considered good. b) The bad guys who are bad to us. These are considered bad. sound won't and same have mass own I've heard that before, but nothing has changed. So I suppose it will continue the same way. their For me it is teh same plain hypocrisy to propagate high ideals and work behind the back of political enemies in order to destroy them by just finding that they did this or that in the past. As for killing, well of course the CIA hasn't terminated anybody yet, who was considered an enemy because of thinking other ideas than those allowed. madman. Don't repeat this often to a Greek. It is very bitter! No, but against m.92ne. civilians. Even worst than rushing the own civilians is rushing foreign civilians. in If that is the definition of freedom, then OK, they are free. What else can I say? the solve If it did, then the problems of today should be much smaller. Without of The WWII cannot be used as an excuse and example for the U.S. being right under any circumstances. But OK, if the WWII has to be our one and only example then let's go on for WWIII, WWIV and so on. I just gave up trying to convince anybody that there are better ways. Nick. use Then nuke just Saddam... educated. The Taleban was once financed and trained by US, right??? since be But that was a UN decision, not US playing Solo THAT IS MY POINT HERE !!! Because this is not recognized I go ballistic !! which be OK Noe I finally got it: Bush is just bluffing, but doing so well that even I believed him. If I were Saddam I would delay that inspection 'til I got everything either hidden or distroyed Good bluff, thank you !!! X OK , OK, I got it: Bush and his government is not going to take any actions really, but bluff has to be good, otherwise Saddam goes on and builds more nerve-gas weapons (nuke is too $) Veli-Pekka On Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:59:21, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen to below. I'm sure that GWB would love to be able to do just that and that alone. And other members of the administration were talking about the 'one bullet' solution. But of course that would not necessarily mean that the chemical and biological weapons would disappear or that Uday (for example) would stop attempting to get a nuclear weapon. of the Not the Taliban. More like the Northern Alliance. And that was not because of any love of the politics (or religion) of the Afghani's. It was purely and simply because the Soviets were continuing their attempts to make Afghanistan a client state. So it was a case of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'...well, not friend, so much as possibly ally. a to YES! AND purely because the UN to date, has refused to recognize that Saddam has refused to fulfil the conditions of inspection, to the extent that there is a real danger to EVERYONE in the free world, the US has decided to hold the UN's feet to the fire: it should either endorse the upholding of the treaty requirements, which arose out of the Gulf War, or it should admit that it is useless and shut up. The US is completely entitled to call the UN to account for its failure to react to Saddam's failures. And if the UN refuses to act, just what is it that then compels the US to not act?....International law? There is no such thing. There are treaties between states and multi-party conventions which amount to treaties. That is it. There is NO authority which has the power, as between states, to say You are in breach of the law and are under arrest. There is NO judge to decide if you broke the law, because there IS NO LAW. The fact that Saddam is a psychopathic dictator who happens to be in complete control of a patch of ground we call a 'country' is part of the problem. If he were holed up in a bunker in upstate New York calling himself the leader of the 'Hell's Angels' there would be no question of what to do. The real reason the UN wails and screams and waves its arms, is that a large number of the countries in the world, run themselves exactly like a Hell's Angels club house. The UN diplomats are only there to stop the larger nations of the world from doing that which common sense, decency and morality would suggest: killing the tyrants. But the 'civilized world' does not do the civilized thing, and thus allows the tyrants to continue to kill, main and subjugate their citizens: Bokasa, Mobutu, Mugabe, Sukarno, Suharto, Ne Win, Pol Pot.... And every time the US has attempted to lead any coalition to do these things, the idiotarian alliances have screamed at the US. But the US recognizes, like it did on December 7, 1941, that it could no longer ignore the War and stay out. It's very presence and existance was a threat to the Axis, who attacked it. The slur against the use of nuclear weapons is just that. A non-sequitur slur. The US was at war. There is one thing to remember about the US attitude towards war: an attitude which can be seen even in the US Civil War. War is about killing the enemy until he surrenders. The US army expected, having seen the results of the Okinawa landings, to sustain about 250,000 casualties from an invasion force of 750,000 on the Japanese home islands, and to inflict about 1 Million casualties. The use of the bomb shortened the war, and reduced US casualties. In war, there is no reason to consider whether you should reduce your opponents casualties. The US had the opportunity to use atomic weapons against North Korea and China in 1951/52. MacArthur publicly dissented from Truman's decision to withhold their use, and was properly dismissed as Chairman. If MacArthur had been in Schwarzkopf's position in 1991, he probably would have sent the (101st?) cavalry into Baghdad. But Schwarzkopf was not ordered to do that: it was not in the UN mandate, and GB (41st) said no. Do you really think Saddam would have stopped his Guard if they were ever 30 miles from Tehran? resolution when again. has sound be Bush is not bluffing. The inspections will be *as originally set out* unimpeded or there will be war. make I think you are living in la-la land. otherwise Saddam *why* Bush is not bluffing. Precisely because Saddam continues to build WMD's. The thing about these WMD's is that Saddam can give them to any set of terrorists, and they can be used, without tracing back to him. The IRA has been caught helping the Columbian FARC, and recently, spying on the government in Belfast. What would those psychopaths do with WMD's? I never want to find out. Neither does George Bush. Geoff Newbury -- The *only* Weapons of Mass Destruction are nuclear! -- ir. P.F.Geelhoed Delft University of Technology Laboratory for Aero & Hydrodynamics Leeghwaterstraat 21, 2628 CA Delft, The Netherlands +31-15-2786656 / +31-15-2782947 (fax) peter@dutw1479.wbmt.tudelft.nl So if I leek out a new breed of virus or bacteria that acts like Ebola, shows up slowly like AIDS but goes on like an ordinary flu virus but afterwards a new secondary flu will be worse and the third one will kill. This could wipe out the entire population of humans To me it looks more WMD that nuking. Saddam may very well have such a weapon hidden so I'm now strongly against any bombing at all.... let the inspections be very very very careful ! Very! Veli-Pekka The only weapons that destroy mass are nuclear devices, therefore they are weapons of mass destruction. E=mc^2 Peter LOL Veli-Pekka This message was written entirely using fresh positrons it will self-annihilate in ten seconds - take cover !!! What is so special about UN that you so believe in it ? It is neither democratic nor even proportional representation of the world population and/or political and military strength and in fact never really was. Why is it so important to go with UN, where UN actions in the past usually did not prevented genocide, wars etc. In fact most of the UN history is littered with misguided and ignored resolutions inaction or highly unfair actions driven by local interests of those who happen to have majority votes. Most of the international actions, that did in fact prevented conflict are those made by NATO, or by pressure from US or USSR back then when Soviets were a superpower. Do not explode, please :-) I don't exactly understand your obsession with nuclear weapons. How did you get into the conclusion, that Bush is the leader so willing to use nuclear weapons, where in fact the only president after WWII that was ready to do so was JFK during Cuban missile crisis, which by the way was solved without UN approval. I' m finding that derogatory Bush nuke name calling rather demagogic, than constructive discussion on the subject. I understand that you highly dislike Bush, but I challenge you to find where and when he was threatening Iraq or any other country with the use of nuclear weapons unless such country would use one against US or their ally. In fact the only government that declared such use (not even them not really clearly) is a government of Israel in case if Iraq would attack Israel with chemical, biological or nuclear arsenal which of course our Baghdad criminal proved in the past is ready to do even if Israel would not even get involved into the conflict. I wonder, what would you think, if Irish Republican Army would announce, that they will use nerve gas against Finland in case if British Army would conquer their bases in Belfast. The whole point of this war is such, that US doesn't have to nuke them at all later when they will have one and maybe even dare to use the weapons against targets in EU, US or Middle East. But of course, than you will be for it, right or would you just give them the second cheek ? Jack Do you mean the inspectors who will NOT be allowed to inspect so called Presidential Palaces?? Oh yes, they will be able to find the weapons, hahahahaha. Charles Perry P.E. when the rulers of the world have CONvinced everyone that paper is 'money', well, anything is possible! be sure to listen to the recordings and be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net AAARRRGGGHHH! You got me with that one.... BOTH Sorry, Danny, that will never happen. French will always made up a reason, or belive in the most idiotic theroy just to hate US. Complex of geriatric empire, I guess. Jack Nonsense. That is exactly what is going to happen and that is exactly why US is going to attack, because Saddam wont disarm himself. The rest is extra. weapons See, now you thinking. face Precisely. UN already lost face 10 years ago. That is why US will not wait for UN this time. Their ally is not a big beliver in UN anyway. with That is very naive theory (I hope, this is not your theory, but some idiot european journalist). US don't need to get rid of Saddam to buy his oil. He would be happy to sell it and he would never support Sudis exactly because, Saddam has little to do with Islam and rather hate Saudis. He loves money and regional power. the key You can buy oil from Mexico, Namibia, Norway, Great Britain, Georgia, Azerbejdzan, Russia, Canada, etc., etc. Also it is much easier to attack Saudi Arabia than much stronger Irak. Your theory is very naive. Jack weapons face I agree. The US will attack anyway with provider. the key I agree again completely. Roman I don't know what the disarmament policy of the current administration is, but even if they are ready to have such an agreement with Iraq, I doubt Saddam would sign it. -- Bhuvanesh And militarily... Well, I'm not sure about that, because the US doesn't seem to be able to win wars without help from other nations. Even in the previous war with Iraq, the US wasn't able to displace Saddam. But there's no question about the US' financial superiority. -- Bhuvanesh The U.S. didn't displace Saddam because it has a strong interest that Saddam holds his place. Bet that he will *never* be displaced by the U.S.? There is not any other factor for stability in the region ( as the U.S. defines stability) like Saddam. If they wanted to displace him, he would have been already history. (So many examples in the past.) The problem is that they don't want him to exceed a ceratin amount of military power. I make here the following statement, which I strongly wish but don't believe to be false. Iraq will be bombed and *partially* destroyed every, say 5 to 10 years. Saddam will survive each and every military action and after each bombing he will re-arm his land. If after some decades we still believe that there is no pattern behind these events, then we clearly don't think mathematically ;-) Nick. The US is a military superpower, bottom line. The fact that the US didn't displace saddam in the gulf war has nothing to do with US being a military superpower or not. And the main reason the US gets help from other nations, not the only reason mind you, but the main reason, is to lesson the load on the US and to ease the tension between those nations. There are so many factors to this that I'd rather not list them here. Suffice it to say, the US could have easily taken on saddam in the gulf war, and the coming war most likely, all by themselves. Doug That not exactly true. The subject of this post clearly states US not Bush. Also assumption, that Bush is the bad guy would be naive. President Bush not only officially represents US nation, but in his most highly disliked by the greene-weene leftist crowd decisions he is extremally highly supported by the citizens. For example Kyoto treaty was rejected by US senate by 100 : 0 votes, and the senate majority happen to be held by the opposition. Also support for ousting Saddam Hussein is estimated in the pools to be currently around 75%. Blaiming Bush for those decisions would be cynical. Those who do, dream about US president who would do things that are disliked by the majority of the voters. That is maybe, what the leftist crowd would assume normal, but not either moral or normal by any measure for the normal citizen, who has democratically choosen his leader and lives in non-orwellian country. I know, that many so called moral authorities were always excusing Soviets and blaiming US. Soviets are gone morally and economically bankrupt, but the trend holds anyway. Of course, they were. :-) I simply don't believe that typical west european whining US opponent will ever have the guts to do something constructive and oppose the imagined US evil, like the real men did in the WWII opposing evil of nazism. Like Kosovo ? It was one of the most disliked ideas in US. But it is also very popular especially in Europe to criticize US. The most often cause of it is pure snobism. There are countries independent from mideast oil, like Chad, Zimbabwe, Gabon, Rwanda. guilt. And too many ask for action either because they cannot do it themselves or their interests are parallel. Jack Bush. Then let it be said here that we (quite often) saying U.S. only mean the current decision makers and not everything. highly Which was a very wise decision if someone also thinks on such unimportant issues like for example what we are going to breath tomorrow. ;-) those maybe, normal Which is the proof that the poor philanthropic government of the U.S. wants our best but we bad guys only want to have this good government removed, is that what you say? Do you really believe that the government of a super power, any super power, will stop in front of moral questions and try to do good? The opposition to the evil of nazism didn't start at the U.S. Don't you forget that. There is a land which carried approx. the whole weight of the war for months. ( Let's leave in peace that unusual british guys of the RAF who went smiling to their death. ) After that, the U.S. government (correctly) decided to help. They (U.K.) fight, and they fight alone...do you remember? alone. Yes, and this perhaps is a good example for understanding that the two things, the government and the people are *not* treted like one. Agaim, when we say U.S. we mean the government, not you and me and Mr. Smith. Exactly like when we say Germany we mean the German government and Schr.9ader. perhaps we should emphasize this in future to avoid such unnecessary problems? abandon These countries are not the U.S. guilt. or These naive people still think that the super powers are morally interested. But day after day they are proven wrong. And some day they *will* ask themselves what the use of such help is. There is no need to look away from the problems of the word super power. It is itself a contadiction to free will and freedom, not because the citizens of the super power are themselves evil, but simply because too much power tends to corrupt those who have it, the decision takers, the government itself. Diminish the amount of power in their hands. Nick. not Bush. Are you a communist ? The form we when one is talking was very popular in the politburo. It was an official soviet form when goverment was referring to their subjects. Also used in the past in the official language of the monarch. Also might be a sign of schizophrenia ;-) You seem to highly dislike Bush, which is OK. You have a right to hold such opinion. That doesn't mean the others also consider just him as a source of all the problems either real or imagined. If they do so, they clearly display even less brain than they claim Bush has. Current overhelming support for Bush clearly shows, what is the public opinion in US about it's goverment actions. highly highly How about air been different from today about 30 ppm toward better condition for farming in the moderte and high latitudes, where most of the people live allowing plants that require level 3 of CO2 to prosper ? Could you, please quote some scientific numbers, how exactly Kyoto will change the chemical composition of the earth atmosphere 10,20 or 50 years from now ? You seem to be thinking about it, so I'm sure you are capable to make educated decisions about putting or not restrictions on the economy in order to maximize better society life in the future. Please, quote them here together with the scientific material used to confirm your theories. Skip greene religion. I don't belive in gaia GOD whatsoever. Soviet Russia :-) Congratulations of choice. Nonsense. You seem to be very limited in your historical knowledge. The first was Czechoslovakia if you consider Nazi Germany only (altogh in fact only Czech were the true occupied nation, Slovak created nazi goverment of their own) but in fact the first nation to fight axis was China since 1936, where the IIWW really started. US was supporting China since 1936 and England since 1940 materially, despite the US nation to be against the war. The French army was considered to be the strongest in the world at that time so clearly there if any intervention was needed it was French obligation to do so, not US. In 1939 US army was considered to be the strength of the Polish army crushed by Nazis and Russia in two weeks. I agree. For those crimes against Serbs only Clinton should be held responsible (together with some other European pliticians). Duh. I give you an option to emigrate to those who are independent from the oil if you so strongly dislike dependence of the modern economy on the fossil fuel energy sources. Jack not Bush. mean What if I am one? You send troops to eliminate me? was Nope! We refers to the average citizen somewhere in Europe. We because we do have some general characteristica. Yes, I am a king, didn't you notice? (Greekkings ;-)) Of course. Everybody here knows that I am insane and schizophrenic, which is the main reason for doing mathematics. Add the total incompatibility to the rest of the universe and then you have Nick. I don't dislike Bush. I don't agree with his decision to attack Iraq no matter what Iraq does. Not all problems, just this one! Don't forget to count the opinions in Europe and the rest of the world. Or are they second class opinions? President highly highly Kyoto alone is not sufficient. But it is at least a first step. When we are going towards protecting the environment, it is better to do small steps than not doing any steps at all. I don't consider economy to be a life quality guarantee alone by itself. I am quite extreme regarding such things so my opinion doesn't count. GOD What is this gaia GOD? Anyway, nobody has really understood the workings of this earth. Not enough math progress for this. But about my theories. When did I published them? Please tell me because I must know about my own contributions. How did you make this brilliant prediction that I meant the Soviet Union? Yes, if you say so.. Supporting China is not the same like fighting against nazism, but fighting against...Kaiserism which indirectly of course is connected to nazism. So you see that it was first 1940 when supporting the U.K. started, while the war was already reality in Europe much earlier. And as I (erroneously) thought that you meant who in Europe *efficiently* (in terms of military gains) fighted againsted nazism first, I said that it was the U.K. Yes, but does the statement France didn't intervent where it should prove the statement the U.S. was the first land that fighted against nazism? You see what I mean. There you have millions of people that wish nothing more than peace and quite to go back to work again. But no, there cometh the politician (not onyl the U.S. politician) and invents some problems so that the boring situation of peace is replaced by much more interesting things. ;-) Zimbabwe, You'll laugh but I already did that. I lived for a couple of years that way. Fully separated from civilization. Not bad at all. And I'll do that again. It *is* possible to live with just a few things and not demanding that the ballast of modern life keeps you dependend on unimportant things. Nick. It's possible that those opinions will decide the matter. Barry As long as you are not forcing it on my friends, there is no need. was Misleading statistics. I happen to be from Europe :-) and if this is your argument, what you guys are going to do with Britain ? Are you going to exclude United Kingdom from EU because they seem to do what US want and support Bush ? Exccelency !!! I didn't know ... :-0 Hmmm. What if Iraq explodes nuclear bomb in Athens, Greece ? Is this still OK for the rest of us to stand on the side ? How far is too far ? For US politician you should be. You did not vote for Bush and he shall not be obligated to follow your opinion against people who voted for him. That is where we are completely missing each other. I agree with Bush and overhelming majority of US society that we don't need Kyoto or any other restriction at all. The change in CO2 levels of 30 ppm over 100 years is ridiculously small and does not requires any action whatsoever. To the contrary, recent experiments with artificailly increased CO2 levels in the natural forest proved, that it is highly beneficial for natural and farm plants. By the way I don't consider CO2 as a pollution. It is a natural product of living organism such as ourselfs. I also strongly demand to separate religion from goverment. I don't want neither Islam, nor Judaism or Christianity to control my goverment. I'm also opposing enviromental religion to guide my politicians. Try to compare live quality in a poor country. GOD Enviromental movement today has every attribute of being a religious sect. It has it scientifically unprovable truths, it has it's priests - scientists, whos opinion cannot be even discussed, and it has its heretics who are fought with every available weapon except logical discussion. You might try to read a book written by the European (Swede) scientist who once belonged to the Green Peace movement and decided to make numerous scientific studies to help this the movement to have scientific support to their claims. Try there: http://www.lomborg.com/ It will open your eyes to many of the lies of the enviromental movement. If that so, why I suppose to belive you, not Bush ? It's simple .Soviets tied up 3/4 of Nazi war machine for years, so in fact they are the ones, who stopped Nazis. Surely, you don't consider Denmark, who wasn't even holding single German infantry division over 5 years of war as the one who carried the whole weight of the war, do you ? I just proven you, that Czechs were first :-) U.K. was supported by US before US joined the war, so what is your point ? In fact not only US supported the war, but today it is UK, that is breaking your supposedly european opposition to US and is supporting Bush. They simply must know better who is the true British friend. Where did I said first ? I said, they opposed nazism, just like now they oppose Saddamn Hussein, except, they will be now first to fight it. By the way, if this is your position, why do you allow Milosevic trial to take place ? I'm sure you can live like that. Modern society based on the economy that has it's strength based on the massive amount of cheap energy from fossil fuels, allow many of its members to follow all kind of life choices far beyond simple survival. I bet, fuels or nuclear plant. Jack Ahh, the U.S. is allowed to enforce what it thionks best in other countries. But noone else should have the right to do the same. goverment was Britain ? Britain doesn't change anything. Only its politicians support the U.S. Not its the people. Oh, but don't even mention it, my Knight Marcelus. I was incognito. ;-) Instead of always thinking that Hussein would do that, try first to understand why he said that. Not with your western logic, but adopting orient ways. In addition, what if the U.S. explodes a nuclear bomb on Athens? What if, say, India explodes a bomb on Athens? What if somFrance explodes a bomb on Athens? So many candidates. Send troops to each of them? An still in addition. Why do such terroristic actions don't focuse on Athens but on the U.S.A instead? Why not in Berlin? Why not in London? Could it be that they don't focuse on these lands, because neither the Greece government, nor that of Germany, nor that of U.K. have treated the arabs like second class people? opinion not So I am also not obligated to follow his opinion. Even if he is the ruler of the universe, I still disagree. years the of It is not environmental religion. Nobody in this world knows exactly what effect a small change will have on the system earth. You are not so arrogant to believe that our life quality in Greece is lower than the life quality in the U.S. because you have more money? Hold your richdom for yourself, I don't need that to live well. GOD sect. scientists, whos with to claims. Ahh, OK. You don't need to go any further, I know such scientific movements very well. You don't have to believe me, Bush or anybody who doesn't have the mathematic proof of any statement. You only have to worry about the earth, not because of stupidities but because of the fact, that we still don't have any other waters, airs or other resources, except these on earth. Trying to lower CO2 emission, or whatsoever is not only because we are in accute danger, but also because we should try to prevent bad things, instead of correcting damages later. war, I talked about the first time when some country managed to efficiently fight against the nazis. ? *Efficiently* and *fighted*. breaking The government of the U.K. support the U.S., not the people. When you said that China was the first land to fight against the axis and at the same time said that the U.S. supported China since 1936, I heard that between the words. I didn't allow or disallow any trial at all. Unfortunately my government doesn't give me any right to decide. Not having the luxury (and garbage) of your modern society doesn't mean that one just survives. You lose! I live in Nidwalden, Switzerland. Only a tiny part (0.5%) of electrical energy is based on nuclear plant. The Canton is trying to get that to 0%. Electricity production bases mainly on water turbines here that use the power of falling water. Nick. You are illogical. In the sentence above I claim the right to stop you if I can, when you try to enforce things that my friends don't want. This is not the same as deciding for my friend if he wants something or not. Yeah, right. Please stop the bull sh... I want to see one politician that does something against the will of his own society when he and his party is facing free election. Especially, when you consider, that Blair doesn't have to do anything. All he needs to do is to sit quiet and wait how the world develops. By openly supporting US he must see political gains in his own country in the future. If you read that he does it against his voters in a certain newspaper, change the source of your news cause, somebody is fooling you :-) Hussein will not live forever, but he is stupid enough to built or hide extensive arsenal of extremally dangerous weapons despite being warned several times. As long as Arab societes will tolerate, finance, encourage and maintain Islamic extremism, they will face preventive actions. Egypt understands that so is Syria or Jordan by not pursuing weapons that easily might fall into the hands of west haters and religiously misguided murderers even if current goverment is allied with, or enemy of the US. September 11 however terrible, made with classic weapons is not strong enough to destroy US or their allies in the Middle East. Therefore US and others can afford to tolerate that some of the Arab counteries are turning blind eye on the terroris organisations and religious extremism that is maintained often openly there. Even up to Spetember 11 it was hard to justify preventive action simply assuming, that Islam teaching prevents true belivers (as those extremist criminals like to think about themselves) from conducting genocide on children and women not mentioning unarmed men randomly choosen civilians. No so after September 11. The same terrorist act made by some Islamic extremist that will obtain accesss to the future Iraq arsenal either during future Hussain regime or after he is finally dead will not be allowed as long as US has the power to do so wether you like it or not. US will not allow others to plan and have access to the weapons that have enough power to change the world order and/or completely even make large areas of Middle East including some of the Arab countries there inhabitable for decades. If Europe want to just continue it's glorious Chamberlain - Munich policy, so be it. US citizens quite frankly don't give a sh... What we do give a sh... is that we will do anything to prevent cowards slime from having the slightest chance of gravely damaging our or our allies land as long as we can. That is why we have choosen our leaders and that is why we have paid and maintained our military force. Neither EU not UN will prevent US goverment from doing this basic obligation to their own citizens. Wouldn't you like to ? The answer is YES, absolutely. If any of those countries declares hate of Greece, openly maintains and supports terrorists organisations that proved they would do such act, and is not strong enough yet to deliver such weapons to those ready to destroy Greece, we absolutely SHOULD react. When it is too late to react is when the attacking country already managed to develop such terror weapons to the extent that it's use would render much more damage that trying to contain them. Of course in such case, you could always prey. They do. I'm sure by preventing Saddam from pursuing WMD probably also London, Paris or Athens. You just don't know it yet. I told you. Religious sect :-) Thgink about it. You demand to affect billions of dollars in economy, destroy hundreds of tousands of jobs in the developed world and ruin lives of millions of people due to the increased cost of energy because of unknown effects ? That sounds like religion, not science. Why do you consider Greece as a poor country ? I never said such a thing. Greece has full access and is using large amounts of energy obtained from fosiil fuels. What I'm talking about is those countires who do not use energy obtained from fossil or nuclear fuels. Think Ghana for example. Of course, if you consider happiness as a quality level of life, then they maybe as happy or happier than we are. You can't scientifically measure happiness mood so the discussion is pointless. What you should consider, is access to the level of health services, food, water, jobs, housing, travel, entertaiment, education and myriad of other goods and services that are easily measurable by average person. You can even compare what the people think by simply measuring (delta immigration)/(society size). Of course there are some skewed factors to it like goverment that has some restrictive policy toward immigrants. But in general the higher calculated factor the higher quality of life :-) I don't see it that way. Not every change must be negative. The experiment, I mentioned prooved that wood grow faster and healthier when exposed to higher level of CO2. And when opposite happens, and you manage to decrease level of CO2 by half many level 3 plants would die because they could not genrate energy from such low levels of CO2. Earth atmosphere was never constant. In fact in the beginning it consisted mainly from methane and carbon dioxide. It did not had any free O2 at all :-) During Jurasic period not only Earth was warmer about 10 deg C than it is now but also had several times the level of CO2 than we have today and the life was booming. In fact the ice that we have on the poles was not there either. Even assuming, that man is responsible for all the CO2 recent increase the researched increase during entire human civilization is from 220 ppm in the stone age to sligthly above 260 ppm right now. ppm is of course PARTS PER MILION !!!! You can check this. This is publicized research data somehow always not mentioned by various eco - gurus. Man was always afraid of unknown and was easy to be fooled or be manipulated by numerous sect leaders in the past. Why you think, big part of the modern enviromental movement is not exactly the same today ? Lenin once said, that when the man looses one God, often he needs a new one. war, Russia again :-) Stalingrad has broken Nazi neck. Every military historian will tell you so. ? Poland ? (Since 09/01/1939 till 05/09/1945 - two days longer than Britain) That is your opinion. Consider, that since 1936 in Asia (where EU did completely nothing) and in 1939 in Europe US sided with anti axis contries by supporting them materially. Altough you might consider that not enough and I may agree with that, it is clear, that US was against fascist criminals sonce the start. You do have a right to vote. Don't you ? Another demagoic statemnt completely untue. Without fossil fuels energy there is no way devewloped contries would be able to produce enough food for even half of the population they now have, from the land they do farming on. countires and in a good health than ever in the so glorius past. In Africa you also have some examples of the countriers, which did managed to enlarge their population without succesfully harnessing energy sources. Ask yourself why is it that US or EU not only manages to produce food for ourselfs, but delivers massive amounts of food to those poor people facing hunger everday. You don't belive, I hope, that they are idiots and we are productiove smart race destined to succed ? http://www.statistik.admin.ch/stat_ch/ber08/eu0801.htm I have no comments. Jack Yes, of course. The only logic that is really logical is the logic of the U.S.A. And if you dare complain you just disappear, wiped out of this universe by the great cop of the world, the U.S.A. The U.S. has already many times decided what its friends want to have. Go on another time! Decide for us, we are nothing, we don't have to take decisions. But when the next time some plain crashes on your head, don't tell me to be sorry! You know very well that almost any politician does this in so called representative democracies (or should I say hypocrisies?) Only in a direct democracy (Switzerland) you can claim that waht happens is the wish of the most people. (And also there there can be exceptions). No, he doesn't have to do anything except licking the boots of the U.S once again! above! Then how much more stupid must the government of the U.S. be, having a multiple of such weapons? Hypocrits! The U.S. government just can't stand anybody else getting more power. Insatiable wannahavealls that think their will has to be the will of the whole world! And as long the U.S.-extremism of power and money above all continues, you still have a problem. Continue that way! Your sleep is going to get more and more unpeaceful duriong the next years. If Egypt or Syria or Jordan would dare act negatively for the U.S., then your peaceful government would invet some other reason to bomb them too. They keep their mouths any silently wait that the next storm is over. Congratulations for spreading angst to the whole world. A single hit was enough to let the economy go panic. What you think will happen when those who belive in nothing more than economy and money are hitted even more terribly? Nobody of the Arab countries turns blind eye. They bluff you and your stupid government anytime they want. The money for the terrorist actions still flows through your own banks and you can't do anything against it, because your system continues believing the same old stupidities! Go on, you already have supported these actions but you didn't even notice! While randomly bombing civilians from a plain is of course a great achievement! And talking about belief, it is ultimately believing in money that turned the lives of Arabs to hell and left for them nothing more than to believe that godly revenge has to take place. Whether I like it or not. Watch out, your claws are showing! U.S. is of course God and have the right to allow/forbid whatever it wants. BTW, that is the name of this thread, so if you say the same there is no reason for continuing. You already accepted that the U.S. government wants to be God! policy, And if the U.S. wants to continue its even more glorious policy which caused almost total extinction of what you today call native americans (!), then be it. The U.S. have of course all needed power to do so. Please be free to bomb anybody. Until next time you have to pick up the ruins... Then keep on choosing your leaders (of which the current can't even speak) and pump more money in your military machine. You will not change anything for the better. The terror machine will be *always* several stape ahead and you feed its hate and passion. That is why you also reacted to help Tibet? You don't react if there is nothing to eat up. You will not stop until you have eaten up the whole world (universe) and collapse under your own mass. And let also be said, Greece was often enough in need for help, but nobedy of our good friends helped because we don't have anything to offer to be eaten up by your insatiable throat. After some decades believeing in our good friends we start changing friends. And bitterly smiling on our own naivity. develop OK, then react early and bomb anything. Good luck! You are trying to give courage to yourself. *You* are the target, not me. They hate you and not me. Another evidence of your arrogant behavior is to believe that your enemy is at the same time the enemy of the world. But you are not the whole world. When the next catastrophy hits the U.S. but not Europe then we will talk again. Saying don't know is not the same like saying I know because God/Manitu/Allah/whoever informed me, so why the characterisation Religious sect? Because Greece has still an average netto income way lower than the average of, say, Europe. And when you bring economic considerations in the game, I have to tell you that your limited thoughts are not the limits of life quality. No, it doesn't! There are extended regions having problems with cold in winter, or water supplies in summer. are. Don't try to make me and my people to look like caricatures, because we s**t on your definition of life quality. Believe that you live OK, and let us go our own way. Or is that also forbidden by your government? But I can measure it on the faces of people, so the discussion is not pointless. If iot is for you, then go on measuring. education We smoke the worst cigaretts, drink the worst Ouzo, dance and sing until our voices disappear, let our economy go down the damned, don't go to the doctor because of each and every pain and still live much longer/better than any of your barby dolls that don't have anything else in mind than their next lifting. Keep on measuring while I live!!! Yes of course, if you say so, who am I to doubt you? A simple dirty Greek who doesn't have even a dream of your measurable services is not worth taken into consideration. But yet, he somehow managed to have 10 times your history and (unfortunately) set the fundaments for your society ( fundaments that you have f**cked up beyond recognition ) without using your measurables. If you don't know what can be negative, then better not change anything. Besides, it is not only that wood grow faster and healthier but what else happens and also what result the faster/healthier growing will bring. If you try to teach me mathematics/physics you are in the wrong direction. Observing only a tiny part for such a tiny time of such a complex system is poor modelling. Don't you try to show me how the conlusions about the fate of the earth are made. OK, then should we try to regain that state? This miserable amateur knowledge is all you can show? And you can check (if you have the necessary education/understanding) that such system like the earth, can react quite different than what youz expect, even if the disturbing factors are infinitesimaly small. Go solve your coupled diffeqs before telling us half the truth here. You are not the person to teach me what ppm is. When you have the mathematical knowledge come back and we talk again. Stop indirectly naming me an eco-guru. The underlying mathematics, as far as understood, is also published. Go learn them and then come back. To be afraid of the unknown is often what can save your life. To be afraid what you will do, should the earth not support your life anymore, is reasonable. If you don't care about this, I do. I don't want to pay your bills. war, so. That was not fighting! point ? Britain) You don't to understand, so I don't see any reason to continue. No, it is not my opinion only. EU? You mean the lands of Europe at that time? Supporting is one thing. Fighting on the front another. But as said, you don't want to understand. Let it be, you are right. trial I ahve a right to vote, but unfortunately the land in which I could vote doesn't have direct democracy, so I can only vote for politicains who promise to do something and forget about it later. Demagogic statement? Look at Nidwalden. Africa sources. The western world managed to destroy Africa and its culture not only once but many times in the past. for facing To keep the third world depending on our philanthropy. See above! Hypocrit! Why didn't you show http://www.statistik.admin.ch/stat_ch/ber08/eufr08.htm ? Why you start talking about *electricity*, but give statistics data of *final consumption of energy* which includes anything else, like cars, ships etc? Why you show data of Switzerland while I talked about Nidwalden/Switzerland? Why not http://www.strom.ch/deutsch/presse-politik/pgrafik-strom_import.asp or why didn't you say that in Switzerland about 60% of electricity is produced by using falling water and that this percentage grows? Why did you start asking me where the electricity that I use here in Nidwalden comes from, and then show the people statistical data of the whole energy production for the whole land? Who do you think you're fooling? Your try to make me look not credible by bluffing, was not good enough. Try again. But I won't answer any more. Your nightmare just began, Nick. On 11 Oct 2002 07:23:21 -0700, Nick Karagiaouroglou [almost 500 line post - swathing snip] It would have been entirely a different question if Tibet had oil reserves of such magnitude that the long term development of the US economy depended on them. If that had been the case, the Chinese dictators would not have been given favored trading status. It's true that most of the Balkans didn't get much help from the rest of the Occident when the Turks were pushing into Europe. British troops did put up a strong resistance to the German paratroops in the second world war in Crete. As for the current Greek state, I'm not sure if it was to be expected that other states intervene in the events of the 1970s. Perhaps London is at risk, with Phony Tony licking Dubya's boots. Greece and Portugal are both on about the same level. There are about 10 states that are on the point of joining, all of which are poorer (except perhaps Slovenia). I don't know the precise figures, but I think the GDP per capita of Greece is around half of that of the USA ($US15K compared to $US30K). The normalized figure (taking into account the cost of living) might make it even worse (it does for most EU countries). However, I don't have the impression that your Merkin interlocutor has widely travelled. are. This is a pertinent point. What is the point of earning so much money if all you can do with it is buy processed GM food, beverages brewed with rice that have the cheek to call themselves beer and the repayments for debts incurred from being incited to consume, consume, consume? A bientot Paul -- Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth) What happens if you have lead in your pants as well as lead in your pencil? So we come to the conclusion that...? examples. It was more the time after WWII until the seventies, when many events took place with the little help of our friends, in the general hysteria against anything that was red. I could talk hear about many things which I experienced myself, but let it be, better we focuse at the current events. Please explain your reasoning here?? You would be (negatively and positively) surprised if you were to live in Greece. As about your impressions, well, they are yours. we are. The point was that even if the measurables tell us that somebody's life quality is low, we still should apply his/her terms of life quality before we go and start changing his/her life circumstances. Jack has made the extrem example of people who don't even have the most necessary things for living, without mentioning how it comes that they don't. However, I was applying his empty comments to lands where the situation is not critical but yet contradicts his measurements. If we measure the life quality in Greece based on standards that aren't accepted in Greece (or where else) than I believe we are on the wrong way. I used this example *because* I happen to be Greek. Nick. Stop smoking pot and start thinking. US ally agrees, that Saddam is a threat and is supporting US action in the region. You are not in the region so you have no idea, if Saddam is or is not an immediate threat to the US ally in the region. My dear Nick. You are loosing it. When Yugoslavia was spreading mass murder into the Europe, it was Europeans who begged Clinton for help. Nobody decided this for you. Quite contrary, we didn't liked the idea to send US army there. Why you keep insisting, that you know better siting in your Swiss Alps that Israel is not in danger from Saddam and is only pretending that because US forced them to do so ? You are becoming a little incomprehensive. Get a grip of yourself ! :-) He- he - he. How naive. Nonsense not worth comments. You are becoming demagogic. This is not productive. Sorry, but you need some growing up to do. Your nonsensical answer here is still not worth the response. See above. You don't need to thank me. In fact you will never find that out, that you should. Terror act with the use of weapons of mass destruction that was prevented from happening usually is overseen by the potential victims. Are you talking about Europe ? There is no panic is US. We have choosen our leaders to prevent it. You are welcome to give them your second cheek. Nick, me dear friend. I didn't had to wait too long to see how much hate you were holding for us. Somehow I knew, that under your peace now face is simple primitive hate to anything that is American. You don't have to pretend that you liked us, and only Bush is bad guy. Why are you so ashamed to admit, that you always thouht, that Americans are idiots and biggiots, that you can't stand our culture and our core values ? Our discussion would be much simpler if you would said so from the start instead of pretending that you somehow like us. Please don't lie next time. It makes discussion pointless. Smart weapons tend not to bomb randomly, but your hate of US explains your nonsensical hysteria in the above sentence. Yeah, they are running several caves ahead :-) This is where the weakness of your logical thinking is exposed. China do have nuclear weapons already. Saddam not yet. The cost of helping militarly Tybet would far exceed the gains especially for them. Beside this, China does not maintians, finances and supports groups of fanatics that proved to be ready to destroy the us if they can. Greece in help ? You mean, when you counter-invaded Cyprus ? The world prevented that war and stopped Turkey from attacking you. What else you want ? Turkey does not poses nuclear weapons and does not trains army of suicide bombers ready to turn Greece into the nuclear desert. Quite contrary, Turkey as the only exceptional leadership of Ataturk is the most succesfull Islamic country in the world. But of course, you are welcome to leave NATO But you are not going to talk to me if they will hit Paris ? and you will talk again to me than ? I suugest you to travel to India, Africa or rural China. You have no idea what poor really means. It is still far cry from Somalia, Etiopia, China etc. Living in Switzerland of course does not help you to understand that. What are you smoking ? I don't care how you want to live. It is you that for the fake reasons are are trying to interfere with how I want to live. Sign your Kyoto treaty if you wish but stay away with my life choices. Do the net search: Ethiopia, hunger. You will see many faces of the people there. I wonder, if this is what you consider hapiness unless of course they are in the act of getting bag of rice from the Red Cross truck or your image of hapiness is a little sick. The average life expectancy in Greece is unfortunately lower than in US, but again, you've lost your cool at the start of this post, so there is no logic in your discussion, just pure hate. Why is it that you keep calling yourself simple, Dirty Greek ? Please, stop using derogatory racist stereotypes here. It leads nowhere. Nonsense. The world population is changing factor and requires change at least in food and energy production. Why is it so difficult to comprehend ? Nothing else will happen. The world during ages have seen level of CO2 varying many times between 3000 ppm down to 180 ppm at the last ice age. Current level of CO2 is still extreamally low. Again you are misled. Observing large parts of that system proove that levels of CO2 and global temperatures were varying wildely many times more, than eco movement is now attributing to men and had nothing to do with human activity. It is you, who are fooled by the ecological movement, who dares to show you only last 200 years of staticstics, so you can't see little ice age that cooled world without explanation between years 1000 and 1700. We didn't even reach yet the temperatures of the year 1000, when Greenland was truly green. Nonsense. We are incapable to do so. The same movement that fooled you into the belive, that man is warming the earth is also claiming, that we are just about to run out of oil. Why then you worry so much ? No oil, no problem ? I'm sorry for your ignorance. Is name calling your normal response when you encounter lack of knowledge or arguments to respond ? By the way, you are not alone. Many in the eco-movement have similar knowledge and attitude. They do not try to understand what they don'ty know yet. They prefer to call all counterarguments as heresy to their eco-religion. You are absolutely right. It should have been your teacher in the high school. so. Greeks where also considered as inferior race to the blond blue eyed aryans. Britain) I know. To continue, you would have to know history a little better than this. Yeah, the culture. You mean european powers. Yes, I agree. for facing Sorry, but I don't even know where to start to answer such a balant absurd. Again, because you answers seem to be deeply illogical, I can't decypher if you do or don't belive in the superiority of one race over the other. Based on your statement unfortunately I must consider, that you prefer to deny those in need of food any help because it comes from US. Death by hunger is a terrible thing, but what do you know about it from your little warm room in the Swiss Alps. Where did you got such moral values. They definetly don't look Christian (even orthodox). Ships in Switzerland - ha-ha-ha. Did the same teacher gave you lessons on history and geography ? My dear Nick. It is you who are talking about electricity. I'm talking about energy production, because many goods and services that make life services available and of high quality are not directly produced from electricity. Beacuse it is the whole country that makes you either rich or poor and hungry. I hope you can understand such simple facts. I remind you, that it is you, that mentioned not to look into the small fragment of something, because the data is then skewed. The consmption of petroleum in Switzerland is growing even much faster. Beside, why don't you ask Dutch to follow Swiss example ? Nick, please, check how much energy has entire water in the whole Switzerland. The formula for all available energy of certain mass in the gravity field is very simple. If you need help, I will give it to you. Jack As I told you I prefer pipe tobacco and smoke and think at the same time. I am not in that region but I have already experienced a very similar situation, in which removal of a brutal regime was planed but removal of ordinary people was carried out. I am not your dear. You immitate my words? OK, go on. So because of that, Mr Bush predicts that someone will beg for help again? Really? Then I must have some kind of amnesia that prevents me from remembering that I called Mr Clinton and asked for his help. BTW, the troops sent at that time were not sent to invade but more to keep apart those who wanted to carry out a war.. OK, then why was it sent nonetheless? Because I already have seen the U.S. bombing, using as excuse some potential danger for a friend. Incomprehensive is mainly the one who manages to keep humorous about such a deadly subject. Really? Look at the above paragraph where you yourself admitted that the people in the U.S.A. didn't want to send troops to Europe when Yugoslavia spread mass murder, but had to accept the decision of a president contrary to their own wishes. Nonsence is only yourself not being able to comment but replying each time with nonsence when you don't find anything else to say. hide No, *you* are not able to respond at all, because your stupid argumentation slowly comes to an end. Immitating again? Certainly not. The whole spectrum of U.S. company-shares goes down the damned, the indices fall like flies, but there is no panic. Really, a very nice situation. But nobody can prevent that using such means. Even your current leader. There are not only the two choises to give or not to give the other cheek. I told you, I am not your dear friend. You are completely wrong. The above was meant against *you* personally. And it is not hate but rather the fact that such happy-go-to-war guys disguss me beyond any possible description. Yes, of course. It is primitive hate to try to avoid a war but it is noble having you preaching that we must accept it because it is a good thing. I don't pretend, and you can be sure, if I hated the whole U.S. I would say that clearly and loudly. Bad guy? Not bad guy, but rather short sighted guy. values ? Because this wouldn't be true. I consider *you personally* for idiot, not the whole culture of the land. time. You are trying again to make me look like the biggest U.S. hater ever. You have tried also to make me look like a fool. So, am I the one that makes discussion pointless? Oh yes, the smart weapons were such a success that the big fishes are smiling you good evening and the people have one leg, or one arm or one life less. And it is of course not important that while Mr Bush shows his muscles again, the terroristic actions start over again, and the boss terrorists congratulate their cooperators for such fantastic results. If I remember well the main objective of the attack to Afganistan was to catch the bosses, but then suddenly the U.S. government forgot that. And when the Gulf War was on, the older Bush was also telling the world the same song We will remove Saddam, blah, blah but Saddam still sits there and smiles to such idiots like you. It doesn't matter for them if they live in caves or not. If you consider this as the success of the operation, then you are going to get great headaches when they start again. Maybe it is important for you that they live in caves, but this faulty conclusion that you make, extrapolating your limited horizon to what they (the terrorists) should also find terrible, is a mistake. Some paragraphs ahead you told me that I can't have knowledge of this because I am not at that region. Are you? This is jumping again to other points, your favorite tactic to desorientate people. If you tell me about the good guys wanting to prevent bad things happening to poor people, you must explain why Tibet is never mentioned. If you explain this by use of economic means, you just prove that it is not their misery but your economy that you consider more important. Counter-invaded? Were you there? The whole fiasko of that story was concieved the U.S government and accepted and carried out by the Turkish and Greek governments and the NATO. Since years we have endless discussions about opening that bloody dossier, but no government will ever open it. Too much dirt for all participants. And by the way, you should be more careful when opening up such old wounds of people who suffered at that time because they had a dictatorship on their necks which was supported by the U.S. government. The U.S. (not the world) put both our countries in war. Again, you are considering only two possibilities. With us or against us. This is a real clever strategy. And one that shows that you still have time in front of you to discover that the right of one side can't be concluded from the errors of the other side. It is really strange that you must talk about this. We see that the terroristic actions take place again, just at the time when your cowboy plays the strong man, while we at least had the hope during the last months that things will get normal again. what You started with measurements of things that define a high life quality and I objected that there are countries where your measurements are not worth the paper on which they are written. I took Greece as an example for such a coutry *because* the necessary things for living are available *and* at the same time your definitions of life quality are just bubbles. But you again, jump from one stream of thoughts to some other, either because you can't follow or because you want to desorientate. Oh, and by the way, don't be so sure that I was not in China and Africa to live with the people there, or else you again extrapolate yout limits to other people. Switzerland I already told, you stupid kid, that I was not always here. To help you understand better, did you ever dig in trash to find something to eat? Don't you tell me who can undestand what is misery, you idiot! And about Switzerland, you don't suggest that the land in which the red cross was born, doesn't know about poverty and misery, do you? It was not always the way it is here, but such stupids like you of course don't know that. This land has suffered under such muscle men like your Mr Bush, until it decided to resist. The people of this land were mainly poorest mountain farmers and it was not until the begining of the last century when better times came. They still remember what hunger is, bl.9admann!! Again the same question about smoking. It's getting monotonous. Then live me in peace with your army and your protection and your economy. Iff I have to breath CO2 tomorrow because you don't want to sign today, then it is you that affect my life. Your sensitivity about such things seems to be infinitesimal. Not everybody that has seen death and lived with other people in misery wants to use that fact in a discussion about war. Not everybody who has been kicked down like nothing wants to point the finger on somebody and start the same dirty games again. Elevate and look beyond your economic considerations of the war. The are better ways. This is not true. People who adopted the modern measured way of life have lower and lower life expectations. Fortunately enough we re-discovered our own old values and traditions and live longer again. The old people in villages still reach 90 an it not seldom to have several people over 100 in the same family. Besides, we put more life in our days instead of putting more days to our lives. No there is only deepest repulsion against you and your macho syndrom of war. is Because you pushed me in that category talking about life quality. Look: Me: Then you: farming on. Africa sources. for facing The last paragraph cut from a former message of yours suggests that having no luxury means having no life quality. And since in your limited brain there is no other possible way for life quality, I took myself as an example of somebody in Greece who denies your form of life quality, thus being an ignorant dirty Greek, who still says to you, that he/she has other definitions of life quality. Such assistents of stupidity like you, will never understand what it is like, to go to the easy tavern at the end of the street, which can offer only three meals and ouzo, easy meals that in the presence of friends and the family are more worth than your most exagerated fantasies of luxury. I use them against myself to support your non-verbal classification of life quality of people, according to the luxury in which they live. It is stupidity that leads to nowhere! And your belief in war. You are nonsence. If you can give me any mathematical model that can suport an unlimited amount of energy production for unlimited time, then give it to me. Else, shut up! Of course you solved the problem mathematically and you know that. As I told you, you unmathematical person, this doesn't predict anything about the future. Besides, the times when these concentrations of CO2 occured, were times without the presence of the species human. Nobody can predict up to this day, what/how will the whole system evolve, having to carry the additional load of emissions of CO2 and other emmissions produced by ourselves. When we see that the glaciers melt away, we can of course say that it would happen anyway. But still there is doubt about that and the best thing that we can do is to watch out a litle more. ecological I am not getting fooled by anybody because I only get for granted what strict mathematical consideration can prove. Your amateur knowledge about statistics is nothing! Statistics is what we do when we don't know any better. Again, if you have a model and its solutions, then post it, or else send your mental salad to somebody that doesn't have more knowledge of mathematics. Then shut up using the same refrain as an argument! Don't jump around from point to point like a mental bozo! You should do good and don't assume so much things about who has influenced me so far. To cut a long story short, either you send us your prove or you work further until you get it done. No, you can't claim that because I didn't deny what you said. But it is way not enough to prove anything. Yes, if the one with which I talk about something presents facts that can be found in any amateur science book, instead of science itself. Oh, and don't forget that you have started calling my opinions nonsence and bull long before I characterized you amateur and stupid. I am not in the eco movement! I don't care about religion. Show me math and then we can speak. Until then, keep your insight for yourself. school. You can be sure that my teachers at high school have done this quite well, so that I could work with my professors and later with my co-workers at two universities and three research institutes. you so. Last time I tell you that and I hope that you get it. *Efficient* and *Fighting*. aryans. Not very efficient though unbelievable hard considering their equipment at that days. The Nazi forces at the end overrun Greece. Not efficient. Britain) Not efficient, still remarkable, Poland was also overrun. this. It is not history knowledge in this case, but logic. Which one of them? No, I mean all powers! food for facing absurd. You don't know what to answer because you understood very well what I wanted to say. You won't preach about logic to someone that since years does mathematics. I believe that we must at last start thinking about other ways than wars and death. If the food comes now, to take advantage of the land later, then change your attitude first and then send food. Again, you don't know about my life... My moral values don't come from any religion. Your moral values however must be very well connected to Christianity, since you yourself asked me ironically if I would present the other cheek. Which every real Christian has to answer with a simple Yes. I am not a Christian. I don't even know if I there is any God out there, but I don' pretend to be such a good Christian because I send food to other prople while at the same time I lick the machinery of death. If you were her you would have known better, but you didn't even make the effort to search. And, you know very well that this was said in conjunction to *fimal consumption of energy in any possible form*, and not as the one and only vehicle that has to use energy in order to move. I am not your dear. No it is you who said that! Look: fossil And that is why I talked about electrical energy. Then don't refer to electricity. (You did that, then knew that it was stupid, and then forgot it, hoping that I will also forget.) Oh yes, the amateur scientist talks to the profi about understanding. It is not a fragment, you stupid, it is the answer to your question about electrical energy. When you ask me about electrical energy, I won't answer you with statistics about the whole energy production/consumption. Go re-learn you math stuff and then come back again. BTW, where do you apply your unpreceded knowledge and skills? Again you jump from one point to another. If you want to speak about petrol then do so, but stay at that. The consumption of petrol goes up, that's true, but the overall population also does. There are very extended plans for replacement of a part of that consumption through electricity, that part that has to do with heating of houses and water. Then we have the efforts for extending the usage of solar power, which especially in the sunny regions like Wallis, Tessin or Graub.9fnden starts showing very good results. So the country and the people are trying to reduce petrol consumption in many ways and first success signals are already showing. Not to mention the last patent in aerodynamics..., but this will overload your brain... Why should I? And how do you know that I didn't? Switzerland. is very simple. Give it to me you master of amateurs. Come on, give it to me! Here and now! This amateur knowledge is again all that you can show. Sorry, stupid, that knowledge is for the pupils at the 5th or 6th school year. You should better take into consideraion some other facts which will somehow change your formula. But, OK, give it to me, I want to laugh. I expect this formula in this thread! Mr. Parisse would you please take a chair, perhaps it is going to get dangerously funny. The performance of amateurs is about to begin! Nick. 1956 Hungarian incindent or 1968 Spring in Czechoslovakia ? Oh yes, you are, you make me laugh :-) Clinton expalined, that we have to help friends who asked for intervention. This was considered a good reason altough not very popular. When US bombed Switzerland ? I told you, you are naive. Unpopular doesn't mean against wishes. US goverment was capable to explain why the sending of the troops is needed. US does help their allies. Unlike EU politics of peace for any price. I'm sure Nick, that you would always refuse to die for Danzig if you even know what exactly that means. Is this your whole knowledge about economy ? You really make my day happy. Why don't you try to find unemplyment level in US today and compare it with any European country of your choice ? That is false statement. There was no single terroris act with the use of nuclear weapons, and hopefully there will be none in the future. Having no weapons in the risk regions (and hopefully not anywhere in the world in the future) significantly helps to prevent it. That is true. I forgot, that you hate us. That is fair. Altough I don't hate you, but I can understand that there are cultural differences between us. Good, you so easily admit it. Many from similar cultures are trying to hide it. or Soviet mines were very good, but you might not know that. On the other hand if Al Quaida terrorist has one life less it is actually very good. That the whole point, that is so difficult for you to understand. Of course you don't remeber. The object of attack was to destroy and desorganize Al Quaida organization and prevent that organization from unchallenged further actions. Catching bosses immidietly was always desired but considered to be difficult just like Carlos was caught many of the war. Propaganda brochures especially written by lefties are not neccesairly the best choice. Please, Nick don't fabricate. It's a shame that you have to turn to balant lie. The object of the first Gulf War was always stated as removal of Iraq from Kuwait. I wonder why you hate old Bush that he did exactly what he promised the wrold to do and did not lied. We can only be sorry that old Bush did not in fact finished Saddam then. That would be much easier today. Even US presidents make mistakes or do what they say they are going to do. I disagree. Forcing them to run destorys their planning and organising and financing capabilities. Also, because they are on the run, sooner or later most of them will get caught. Did Afgan war prevented all terrorism ? Absolutely not and nobody promised that to US citizens. This is simply impossible. But mass scale terrorism with advanced training and financing is not easy any more. Again, things prevented are not visible by defintion, so you probably will not belive. Spare the demagogy. You are not thinking logical. It is all about economics of prevention and I never said othrwise. Nobody will attack Saddam if he has nukes (unless he uses them) because ift will be too costly. That is why it is so much better to do it now and that is why it is maybee the last chance. Sure, but you know better. I wonder, where did you read those secret goverment files, or is it just a bar politics ? ROTFL.. Sure. And little green man were landing in the Antarctica. idea I just point the nonsesne of your thinking. Greece has relatively high standard of living because it is using so much energy from fossil fuels comparing to the oither who pare fully OIL INDEPENDENT :-). Of COURSE it is poorer than US because it is using sginificantly less of that energy per capita than US or Germany or England, etc. Greece perfectly fits what I was saying about living standards and of course your own emigration to Switzerland also proves that man by nature is looking better living standards as measured by consumption of energy per capita :-) Of course, you havent :-) Thats an educated gess. Otherwise you would be completely cured from your leftist nonsense. Nicky, Nicky my man :-) There are many ways to show your disagreement with sombody else. This one does not give YOU high notes. Belive me. I belive you. Switzerland is a better palce. Uses a lot of oil per person and you are a living proof. where the life is happier. Nickey ! :-) Now you talking. We were talking about happiness that there is so much misery in the world especially in the poor countires, that many people there curse, and hate everybody around because they have hard time even to feed theselves from day to day. That relation is very well correlated with usage of cheap energy per captia which you had such a hard time to notice. Now you see for yourself. Of course it doesn't know. Misery in Switzerland is gone since XIX centure and nobody there alive remebres misery. Easy Nciky, easy. You are getting incoherrent again. Nice try. Completely nonsensical. It's difficult to find pure nonsense these days. You are making progress. You start observing facts, but not relations yet. Of course Switzerland was poor because it is mountainous country and even half educated idiot knows, that prior the era of cheap fossil fuels energy the flat countries were generating much more energy from their land than people living in the mountains. The relationship (as usual) holds nicely. how In order to prevent me from bereathing your CO2 you must commit suicide immidietly. US, Oh yes it is. One just should look into the approrriate alamanch available in every library even in Switzerland. Just read the statistics. It is published by your own goverment. The funny stories about matuzalem families are just funny :-) No I didn't. Of course. See emigration to Switzerland (a lot of oil used per person) from looking through garbage just to eat above presumably somwhere in China or Africa as you insisted. Again where Dirty Greek fits here ? As I said it is nonsense to consider Greece a poor country. It produces significantly moree energy than most of the African countires or even Hungary or Czech republic in Europe. Of course even when such would be the case, that somehow Greece is incapable to produce that energy forcing its people to look for survival from day to day, I found that racist and offensive to use such derogatory names against those people. As I said I don't consider those unfortunate to be inferior to us but you seem to have names for everybody who is different from yourself. What exactly is your problem ? Yo uobviously are not ingnorant since you have choosen rich country in Europe to improve you standard of living :-) I told you that I don't consider unfortunate people that live in a countries that do not have cheap energy inferior, but you obvioulsy seem to do. Do you hate everybody ? Nickey. Good old communist is comming out of you :-) You can't stand free expression ? Congrats. Way to go Nickey. You are going through. This is natural. They melted many times in the past. In the year 1000 Greenland was green you know. explanation of ROTFL. My poor Nickey. You need help. Hate will damage you. I'm sure, you are mathematical genius. It was hard to observe in your discussion, but I will try to belive you. My point was, that you need knowledge of earth climate history in which you seem to be totally ignorant. Mathematics itself is usless without the input, you know. Garbage in, garbage out, you know. Nick. You must stop. It is dangerous to your hart being so angry. Please ,maintain peace. You suppose to be the peacefull one here. I don't understan why you are getting so angry. I know, that I might be hurting your religious believes, but as I told you, use science instead religion, and it will open your eyes better, to many lies of envirmental movement. I'm sorry to say, but unfortunately name calling characterizes only one person, and it is not me. I'm sorry Nickey, that you are so primitive. I hope you will learn that in your life some day. And you think it is sufficient ? ROTFL. See Nickey, mathematics is far from engineering and you clearly has extremally little knowledge about the subject. Let me explain. Like any other country Switzerland produces energy from many sources and you are using precentage of every source unless you don't use the grid at all. Because major part of Swiss energy happen to be from nuclear power or oil, it doesn't matter, that you insignificant region happens to have enough hydro power. The welath of Switzerland is created by all those sources and also the services generated by other energy sources beyond electricity. To understand that one doesn't have to be a mathematical genius as yourrself. I sincerely belive, that you are mathematical genius because you said so many times here. You don't have to repeat like you are afraid that I don't belive. I do :-) field E = mgh Carefull, don't hurt yourself. I'm sorry Nickety, that you turned out to be such a primitive person, but it was nice to make a laugh of you. Jack I your friend and he's has been long time forcing me and didn't even notice it until now. *NUKE HIM* Nuke the Greece !!! They are reds and I hate reds!!! Help me Obi-van-Marchel, you are my only hope!!! X Oh !!?? not In the *foreign* politics you certainly should listen to United Nations and not act Han Solo. THIS is what pisses me off: 45% of the americans wan't to attack Even Marchel, Aaron and a few others bought it. BAH! - again!!! X Veli-Pekka PS: Otherwise US is not so bad...is it not?? is it?? AAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! He just did! ;-) Radioactive greetings, Nick. wait a second. I *never* said that I want the US to attack Iraq now. If you want to know what I think, then just ask for my opinion. Truth be told, I don't want the US to attack Iraq *right now*. Further, Bush does not want that either - he wants to give them a final chance to comply. Unlike Bush, if I had my way as primary decision maker in the US (ha!), then I would go back to the UN and propose to them the idea of this is the final chance and *get* their approval. In adddition, there is currently a vote going on in the US Congress about giving the president more power to declare war. I hope that it does not pass. Anyway, that's what I think for what its worth. Aaron or ;-) Sometimes the crowd just happens to be going my way. :) Kind of reminds me of the old joke when soldiers are marching and the seargent tells one guy he's out of step and he answers No, sir. Everybody's out of step but me. :) Barry Who made those statistics ? Bismarck ? :-) But even when it is true, so what ? Monachium also had majority support. Nobody asked Czechs :-) Which are then written in the black book of depts and bind countries for centuries? The whole matter of economical help is a big farse. The U.S. (and also Europe) *want* the current situation to continue and have a weak third world which can be manipulated with billions that don't help anybody. If there were ther real wish to solve such problem, then they would be solved in 5 to 10 years. The model alone protect and monitor their borders manifests a ceratin way of thinking. Provoke problems to be able to sell weaponry. Exactly these are the kind of circumstances that used and abused to solidify the presence of troops that after floods and disasters can be used for other purposes. later I don't believe that anybody that calculates minimum number of deaths has any sence about what the death of only one person means. Nick. dont think can say knowledge.. the were I don't think there's anything obvious about any of this. It's just as likely, to my mind, that Bush is doing all this to put pressure on Iraq to get them to straighten their act as it is that he's determined to attack. I'm not saying you're wrong but I just don't know and I don't think you do either. I live in Texas. So how can you know from way over there? When was the last time you said y'all or had enchiladas for lunch? :) Barry Than I must have misinterpreted his statements in the news. (Or the journalists just cut his statements out of context again.) What is y'all? But enchiladas I eat at least twice a month! Yummy! Nick. P.S: Could you please focus U.S. exports on southward food? When :) It's the Texas way of referring to a group of people in the second person. It's also used in a generic way. It's used in other southern states as well but since there are more Texans than other southerners, it's used more in Texas. :) It's common every day speech here. When people from other areas come here they usually start using it in a year or so unless they carefully avoid it's use. Twice a month is enough. Just barely but it'll do. :)