A51 ==== I am using HPTools(for HP calculators) and i run: C: HPTools>RPLCOMP blahblahblah all ok ... C: HPTools>SASM -E blablabla blue screen showing error on vmm32 and only ctrl+alt+del restores it. i could compile old files. ==== I am using a 48 GX with only the standard 128 mem and no cards. I did have erable loaded and was starting to learn how to use it to some extent when my calc locked up and when it came back the mem was wiped clean. At the time I was using an Engineering expansion card and felt that it may have been the culprit but the same thing happened again a few days later. Finally I tried putting in new batteries nothing is loaded and the expansion card I mentioned is not in the calculator. Yet it locked up on me while trying to do simple arithmatic (40000 * 1.328 I think was the problem) and came back with a blank screen not even a request to recover memory this time. Is she on the verge of dying and ready to be replaced or is there hope for my calc. Any advice or help would be very appriciated. Kevin ==== What is the difference, if any, between 48GX calcs in white box and those in hard plastic case with the blue insert? Danny ==== Unless there is a new boxed edition, the boxed edition will have one of the older HP 48GXs with the blue screen. The blister pack edition might or might not have the model with the black screen. HP used to say that the blue screen was easier on the eyes. Most users I know prefer the black screen. BTW, I was convinced the HP 48GX was out of production when it disappeared from HP's online store. I was told by both one of HP's telephone sales representatives and by a sales person at Office Depot that no more HP 48GXs would be produced. In a panic over the prospect of not having a working HP 48GX when I reached my 80s (they do break), I bought three more to go with the three I already had. I also bought two more 128K RAM cards. I like the HP 48GX. Sincerely, Bob Corbett -0600) ==== 49G CAS menu maker tool: Put all your favorite CAS commands into a list; then, with that list on the stack, do XCASM TMENU (or MENU); the result is a custom menu for your CAS commands, in which these commands will no longer ask any questions, nor change any modes or flags, nor purge any variables. Include a STOVX command in your menu if you'd like to set 'VX' directly from your menu, without bothering to wade into the MODES CAS application menu. If you use the MENU command, then your menu is permanently saved in the current directory, and can be invoked at any later time via left-shift CUSTOM (see the MODE key). Example: { STOVX DERVX INTVX SOLVEVX ISOL TAYLR } XCASM [T]MENU Do HOME 256 ATTACH before entering or downloading the following: << 1. << IF { 14. 19. } OVER TYPE POS THEN DUP 1. ->LIST 'XCASV' 2. ->PRG 2. ->LIST END >> DOLIST >> 'XCASM' STO @ The following program is used by the menu made by the above: << -55. CF RCLF RCLVX DUP IFERR RCL THEN END -> fl. vx. xx. << -120. SF IFERR vx. DUP #8C27h SYSEVAL VTYPE -1. > { 316. DOERR } IFT EVAL THEN 1. ELSE 0. END ERRN SWAP xx. vx. IFERR STO THEN DROP2 END fl. STOF { DOERR } { DROP } IFTE >> >> 'XCASV' STO Backup your memory first, in case you enter #8C27h incorrectly :) [r->] [OFF] ==== . I own a Hp49 which has a speedupmax module. I can activate it by pres sing the ON button for a few seconds. The clock is set to 6 MHz in this mode. Is recognizable faster than wit hout it. -- Andreas Korinek ********************************** Charly was a chemist, but Charly is no more, for what he thought was H2O was H2SO4. ==== exactly as i guessed. did you open it up already, see what is inside it? is it rpn? <3C8955C0.80713DB4@miu.edu> -0600) ==== No need; mine's transparent :) It's the standard Sharp logic 4-banger (clear and press 1 + = + = + = ..., get Fibonacci sequence :) This pure junker advertising piece has absolutely nothing to do with HP (but maybe you'll find C.F. on a street corner trying to sell them, with free stock certificates thrown in, if HP sinks while she's at the helm :) [r->] [OFF] ==== [snip-snip] use HALT for your debugging uses... just throw it in the middle of any program and run it. When it HALTs, just do SST and once you are over the part you wanted debugged, just hit CONT. handy. ==== This is not up to me unfortunately. GPL. So nothing will prevent the release of a new ROM from then the But what happen if you make your opinion based on a narrow view? You are upset which I can understand but there's no need to be so harsh. agree Because I have been away for quite a long time and now my work doesn't involve much the HP49 anymore. I have to make a leaving. But don't worry, I'm still focusing on education, who knows you may hear from me sooner than you think :) have I usually tend to become defensive if you criticize something I've worked hard on, natural reaction I guess. I still believe the HP49 is the best thing you could have get in this situation. I did mean that, I don't like what HP has became. I just hope it's not going to be the next Digital, I believe that the people who are now leading HP have no passion about what they are doing except money making. There used to be a time where what you were making and how you could make a change was more important than how much money you would get out of it. But that's the past unfortunately. ==== Excellent news! -- This message was written with 100% recycled electrons Pivo ==== NOW you tell us?! (note: you might have said this somewhere else, but i never saw it) Wait one year... hm... are we going to get the *rom* from you, or just the sources to MK&Erable? JY, can you please, for the love of everything good, why the hell didn't you/they just use the 48g build quality for the 49g? ==== Wooohoooo! Great! Thomas -- Thomas Rast If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S. Truman ==== auggggh.... That's precisely what I feared to hear from you... I wish I was born 5-10 years earlier. Samuel Thibault ==== Doesn't HP still own the copyright on the GX source? IANAL but wouldn't this prevent those parts of the 49 source that are derived from the GX source from being released? Or is HP going to GPL the GX source as well? Could you be so kind as to clue us in to what's going on. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. -0600) ==== Reuters news posted on Fri Mar 8, 9:15 PM ET: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020309/bs_nm/tech_compaq _calpers_dc_10&cid=580 Nail-biting suspense :) [r->] [OFF] ==== Listed these on ebay, no reserve, started at $9.99 Thermal printer 82240b http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1338033659 Business consultant 19bII http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1338028546 Printer paper http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1338037035 -- ==== Unfortunately, none that I know of. What you can do if you have enough free user or port 1 memory is RCL the entire directory, temporarily STO it under some name within user memory, port 0, or port 1, RCL or EVAL the variable that you want using the path name, and then purge the temporary directory using PGDIR, or if you used port 0 or 1, then PURGE will also work. -- James ==== If Test is a directory into port 5 with a variable A inside, 5:{Test A} RCL, doesn't work... Try it, please recover ONLY the object I want, not the whole directory (as I am doing now) Raymond Hellstern escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== As I said above, I think the solution must be a RCL raplacement, but XRCL of Hack Library doesn't work... James M. Prange escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== you're right. I know he has developed some fast access routines for hidden ports, which are used in his Filer48. Raymond R Lion schrieb im Newsbeitrag ==== Raymond Hellstern escribi 227 en el mensaje -0600) ==== That is, indeed, the purpose of a special form of RCL (using a path list), which was designed, on the 48SX, to locate a specific variable and put its direct memory address pointer on the stack (thus recalling just that one variable), in pretty much the same way for any directory, whether currently stored in a user variable or in a port. In the 48GX, some of the ports (2-33) are no longer directly addressable in memory, however, which is what challenges the old 48SX programming. Now, the 48GX does manage, all the same, to recall entire port objects, but to do so for these covered ports, it now has to temporarily map the desired port into the same address space as port 1 occupies, then it must copy the desired object into temporary memory, so that when the memory mapping of port 1 is restored, the copied object is not covered again by port 1. In principle, while the covered port is temporarily mapped into memory, it should be possible to find any desired individual variable within any stored directory object, and then copy just that object, but RCL for 48GX port objects seems to have its own independent programming, which does not both remap ports and handle a list at the same time. I took a quick peek into the system programming for RCL, but I was not able to untangle it and come up with any simple alternative (one of the challenges in so doing is to try to manage to use only supported or stable functions which have never moved); there are many more people who know much more about this sort of programming, however, and I leave it to them to either try it themselves or to give up, as I did (and perhaps even HP did, if this was complained about before the final ROM version of the HP48G series in 1993). The 49G can do this form of RCL in all ports, however, so perhaps you can just copy its program into your 48GX, or replace that old dull-looking thing with a flashy 49G instead, which doubles your user memory to begin with, and also eliminates replacing those pesky RAM card batteries :) [r->] [OFF] ==== when you say taht old dull-looking thing ? You are... (I can't find the words) ;-) John H Meyers escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== The simbol you mention is append .In ALPHA mode, yellow shift + K Allows to chain number and strings. To run the program click EXQ click ALPHA type FINCALC click ALPHA Manolo from Madrid,Spain Wee-Meng Lee escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== For some keyboard shortcuts that have been added since the last update of the FAQ list, look under What's New from Release 1.19-5 at www.hpcalc.org/viewzip.php?id=3240&file=49.html or www.epita.fr/~avenar_j/hp/49.html. -- James ==== Some of you have requested some improvment in Expresso (a spreadsheet for hp49), so I have improve horizontal scrolling and calcul are executed much faster. You will find the new version on www.hpcalc.org in some days or on www.cberger.net. For the user of the previous version : there are incompatibilities, if you want to use the new version you will have to execute e2->3 on your sheet and then change the $LyCx into LC(y,x). ------------- Cyrille Berger ------------- -0600) ==== The Casio Card Watch MQ-11 on my desk led me to the site below: http://users.hoops.ne.jp/s-osaki/ Got an MQ-11? Do you know that it also does Biorhythms? I believe it contains the exact same chip as the Casio Biolator , and is merely a smaller version of the latter, although Casio suppressed any info mentioning this extra feature (thus making it an Easter egg :) [r->] [OFF] ==== First the flip-over-lcd-cover promo calculationator 4-oper-with-square-root pos, then this. what next? http://www.collectmad.com/collectibles/stcal.htm <-- this? ==== How do you use ptr in system RPL? I would like to make a header file with words that aren't in the compiler's table. I guess ptr xxx means ptr with three bytes that represent the five nibble address. If so, how do you enter the three bytes? ==== Of course I can, I even bought a pair of sun glasses be But it is. You make incorrect statement regarding how HP was funding its department. ACO had a budget, and quite a big one. Otherwise how can you pay so many engineers ? I can't release any detailed information otherwise I will see HP lawyers at my door again. The HP49 has been correctly funded and so did Xpander. Xpander (and any new development on the HP49) has been cancelled because HP focused on a different global strategy which didn't involve education anymore. you can always argue this decision but that's a different story. is No. What has been said is that after the official release of the HP49, all the engineers working on the HP49 have been assigned on different projects and that's perfectly normal. Not that I liked it, it just what usually happen. So all the development made after ROM 1.18 has been made thanks to the free time of many engineers. play That is incorrect. The HP6S project has been started after the HP49G. It hasn't been a big success either. I don't think you can buy a 6S anymore. Last time I've checked it was not in the HP catalog. Corvallis-knowledge hope The only reason is that nobody from the old Corvallis team was working for HP at that time except Jim Donnelly, and Jim's involvment in the HP48 was minimum as he worked on the HP library card (periodic table, solver etc..). I've met Diana Byrne on this matter just 2 weeks before she left for TI. We had access to all the ressources available at the time. got The ROM was incomplete that's correct, but the main problem was the incomplete HP Tools which was not available on the new HP unix platform. But what can you expect from a 10 year old project that has been relocated 2 times over the world. I am not. I still believe that the HP49 was developped during the good time of HP. It started to deteriorate AFTER (about 2 years ago) ==== I don't see any difference because in both case the user has to upgrade his calc by himself, and if he want to upgrade then he probably knows that the beta 1.19.6 is much more stable than the so-called stable 1.18. I agree about the doc, but it seems that unfortunately people do not read the docs hence managers decided to spare money providing doc on the web (and if you look at TI it's the same as HP). step by step is something that depends on the country habits to learn maths. It is well adapted to the French way, I don't know other countries way. And what whould you expect? same! Yes a student should know the main methods for integration before using the s-b-s feature. The calc shows what method it uses. yes, he should. The calc does not replace the teacher. Same applies on the other examples. I don't think specialized OS will survive. Probably only pocket PC, linux, even palmOS is not sure. We'll see. One of the main advantage of e.g. linux is that you develop your app for the desktop and just cross-compile it for the PDA it's a 2 minutes work to port. BTW I don't use java, linux is not a synonym to java by far. ==== I'm pretty much a newbie. A respected electronics Professor recommended the RPN way, and I'm so glad I followed his advice. It enabled me to score significantly higher marks than my classmates. In studying precalculus I find the Equation Writer and the Step-by-Step mode very useful. I love the solid feel of the 49g keyboard. I printed and bound Renee De Graeve's Calcul formel et Mathematiques avec la HP49G en mode algebrique , translated into English by Ivan Bertolotti, from the website www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~degraeve/usflan.pdf, and have found it a terrific resource. Nick Karagiaouroglou's Trig Marathon is a tremendous resource, as will be the upcoming Complex Number Marathom and Calculus Olympics. For me, HP is the place to be. I took a 4-hour electronics exam recently with a public utility. Their wording was a calculator will be the only study aid allowed during the test. I hadn't had any exposure to digital circuits, so I had 5 weeks to learn enough digital to pass the exam. I downloaded Robin Getz's Digitician from hpcalc.org website, which takes Karnaugh map data in decimal string format and uses the Quine-McCluskey algorthm to convert to a simplified Boolean expression. This proved to be very useful. I was able to guide my shaky Boolean abilities and check my answers with it. My digital textbook, Digital Systems by Ronald Tocci says, The following discussion (of the Karnaugh map method) will be limited to problems with up to four inputs, since even five- and six-input problems are too involved and are best done by a computer program. (pg. 122) It is interesting to note that Getz's Digitian, even while not written in machine code and sacrificing program memory and speed for low run time memory , is able to solve a 6-input circuit with 15 highs and 10 don't cares in 8 minutes. On the 3- and 4-input circuits on the test I took, the solve time seemed plenty fast, maybe around a minute. My wife says I love my calc more than I love her, and sometimes I'm afraid she's right! to bring a superior calc to market any time soon at under $400? Are you going to be able to get it on the shelf at the Best Buys and Circuit Cities and Office Maxes and their international equivalents next to the TIs? Are you going to be able to break TI's stranglehold on the schools? I sincerely hope you are successful in doing so. But it seems to me the odds of your success are maybe one in a thousand. And if you are successful, are you going to give your HP predecessors due credit? ==== James--- Believe me, you want external fixed-polarity DC input. Get a 5V wall-wart to supply the power. If you use AC, you'll need a transformer, rectifier, and regulator. You'll still need a regulator if you're allowing for messy DC voltage, _AND_ you'll need some sort of electronic switching to handle polarity insensitivity. All of this circuitry would take up a space roughly equivalent to the size of the 41 series card reader, and would generate a _SIGNIFICANT_ amount of heat. If you want something with a form factor closer to that of the 32SII, then you _MUST_ have external voltage regulation, and simply use a polarized DC input. As for the rest: I find the architecture of the Saturn processor to be a wonderous thing for numerical manipulation. A 4-bit data bus, although amazingly small by today's standards, works well when dealing with BCD. I would, however, like to see this processor further optimized and sped up. Speed cannot be too greatly increased, however, due to the heat that would be generated by the processor. Dissipation through the casing into one's hand would become uncomfortable, and power consumption would increase as a result. Optimizing the instruction set and architecture would greatly benefit the processor and its implementation. I only used the IR port on my 48GX once, and that was just to play with it. Ditch the IR capability, and add USB. RS232-C could be retained for backward compatibility with older PC's. _OPTIMIZE_THE_ROM_, especially in the areas of display update. When people are able to write 4-level grayscale games that play like lightning, restricted only by the decay rate of the LCD itself, it shouldn't take 15 seconds to load up and display or scroll/refresh a directory listing. Improve memory management techniques. Make the UI easy, speedy, and consistant. Have two versions: One with full graphic capability (I agree with better resolution/same physical size), and one with only alphanumeric capability. Have both versions be able to drive a 800x600 monitor by means of a USB device (remember the disk drives and monitor for the 41 that used HPIL?) or PC interface program. The PC interface should be able to use the calc as if it were the CPU. Am I asking too much? I don't believe so. Yes, I want a faster, smoother calc. I also want one that is easier to use with a PC. I want to retain the wonderful feel of the 48G series. With today's technological capabilities, it should be doable. I think most of it can be done in software, however. Henry C. Gernhardt, III ==== '49G messages listed, ready to be translated!: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/programming/mstbl49g.zip A previous list (from Sune Bredahl) was not complete and needed to be updated. BTW, any Easter egg among them? Bye. HPCC member #1046 - -- ==== Since I had some largish files to transfer between HP49's I tried xmodem and found it a lot faster except the variable names aren't transferered. Which is fine for occasional large transfers but brought up the question - What is Xserver mode (RS RightArrow) used for? I assume it's similar to Server mode (RS+RightArrow) used be the PC Connectivity software which doesn't seem to work with Xserver mode. Is there something else that uses Xserver mode? does it have the speed of xmodem and the utility of the PC Connectivity software. Stephen Nash ==== I've seen this mentioned a couple times before, with varying details, and had a couple questions. First, is the release being done under LGPL or GPL? Second, does it encompass just the CAS, or the entire firmware source code? I assume that if it's GPL, the 'viral' nature of that license will require it to be the entire firmware. you've put into the HP. After the GX, I had given up the 48 series for dead, and am grateful that the 49 exists at all. -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ==== According to the 1st post from JYA mentioning it it'll be LGPL (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html) Sounds like just the CAS and MK to me, the rest is probably HP property... Bye, -- `What a depressingly stupid machine' Detlef Mueller -- Marvin Detlef[DOT]M[AT]hamburg[DOT]de http://mein.hamburg.de/homepage/grendel ==== Some time ago I posted a query titled [ASM] D0+1 on how to move D0 by only one 'bit' (which is not feasible..) and some interesting ideas faced up, and thanks to David Haguenauer and Cyrille de Br 216bisson who provided immense help (especially Cyrille who contributed the core code for my programs..) I went on and some programs of interest to number theory!! They are two programs, the first of which is called NTHP (for 'n-th prime'). It takes a zint N and returns the corresponding N-th prime. e.g. with N=4 we get 7 ([1]->2,[2]->3,[3]->5,[4]->7,..) The second is NPRMZ (for 'number of primes') which takes a zint N and returns the number of primes <=N. e.g. with N=11, we get 5 (2,3,5,7,11) I hope this is clear enough. Now I'll quote Cyrille's code which is well commented. This will ease the task of understanding my code: (For further information please consult the message [ASM] D0+1 ) the Now I need to explain a little bit about my programs: I have table of bits representing the primality-state of odd numbers starting from 3, each bit is set to either 1 or 0 depending on wehether the number is prime or composite. In binary, it starts as follows 111011011.. which in HEX starts with 715615.. Roughly speaking, the programs operate as follows: NTHP: I read N in A.A and set B.A to 1. Then I walk through the table and decrement A.A by 1 if the bit-being-read is set (=1). B.A is incremented by 2 at each time a bit is read to get the next odd number, so at the end (when A=0) B.A will contain the N-th prime number. NPRMZ: I read N in A.A and then walk through the table decrementing A.A by 1 and counting the number of set-bits (1's) in B.A. So at the end B.A will contain the the number of primes less then or equal to N. Notice that because I only included odd numbers <= 10000 the argument N for PRMZ is constrained by 2# CODE GOSBVL PopASavptr D0=A D0+5 A=DAT0 A A-1.A %This is the table SKUB { $7B56A523D4986B049162523C6014BC0946A120D2090B44252A803C49861441528102129909C 4A14852382112244254A82012816340A50A500548829049442823C4816204B422900C0112980 A462801069961C4000842204804B443148D2140114A44150AC2312084300A128122940843801 440402D68029003060021961903402428D01C0896880010052206110B84A06002352096A4094 0A401920040801562001C08828048542D21D4812A04806A101821920448422401829100C0150 A802149002C08000D0250982200B140003949141C03060420808863001142C2316016804A442 101C20922442108C0182106804340A800569141040028523108908403140C218608008091681 23C0980004812212042806084940812096100384044210206994840140892044004BC0A04000 242804240B442C2094916040110A403940009041122800D20028C0842012050002944A14A900 461061C41002922400040C4B120922420862000548422149923C084005018000210410225209 48128803440120061922048462403429848C4212200210810A801008800D0992044010202384 816240A008103C0104B808460101520003C4944A021141802400428C00440809043122520001 80380306080080090800910AC01129823C0A46050204900A84150250286000A0084280209610 2144A060100808900402128C22421001841140803C2104A04B04280080980300056050210002 884850012206804384042A821940929800500503468061042000922409100C43028901100142 04A04A022149021C0800A120441862009042123C60069409048021500001802560902068800C 02520C0250190A409140502109122042000} C=RSTK CD0EX B=0.A B+1.A *LOOP %This loop tests the 4 bits in the current nibble and behavies accordingly C=DAT0.A B+2.A ?CBIT=0.0 {A-1.A} ?A=0.A -> FOUND B+2.A ?CBIT=0.1 {A-1.A} ?A=0.A -> FOUND B+2.A ?CBIT=0.2 {A-1.A} ?A=0.A -> FOUND B+2.A ?CBIT=0.3 {A-1.A} ?A=0.A -> FOUND D0+1 GOTO LOOP *FOUND A=B.A GOSBVL PUSH#ALOOP LOADRPL ENDCODE FPTR2 ^#>Z ; @ ____________________________________________________________________________ __ NPRMZ :: FPTR2 ^Z># CODE GOSBVL PopASavptr D0=A D0+5 A=DAT0 A A-1.A ASRB.A %This is the table SKUB { $7B56A523D4986B049162523C6014BC0946A120D2090B44252A803C49861441528102129909C 4A14852382112244254A82012816340A50A500548829049442823C4816204B422900C0112980 A462801069961C4000842204804B443148D2140114A44150AC2312084300A128122940843801 440402D68029003060021961903402428D01C0896880010052206110B84A06002352096A4094 0A401920040801562001C08828048542D21D4812A04806A101821920448422401829100C0150 A802149002C08000D0250982200B140003949141C03060420808863001142C2316016804A442 101C20922442108C0182106804340A800569141040028523108908403140C218608008091681 23C0980004812212042806084940812096100384044210206994840140892044004BC0A04000 242804240B442C2094916040110A403940009041122800D20028C0842012050002944A14A900 461061C41002922400040C4B120922420862000548422149923C084005018000210410225209 48128803440120061922048462403429848C4212200210810A801008800D0992044010202384 816240A008103C0104B808460101520003C4944A021141802400428C00440809043122520001 80380306080080090800910AC01129823C0A46050204900A84150250286000A0084280209610 2144A060100808900402128C22421001841140803C2104A04B04280080980300056050210002 884850012206804384042A821940929800500503468061042000922409100C43028901100142 04A04A022149021C0800A120441862009042123C60069409048021500001802560902068800C 02520C0250190A409140502109122042000} C=RSTK CD0EX B=0.A *LOOP %This loop tests the 4 bits in the current nibble and behavies accordingly C=DAT0.A ?CBIT=0.0 {B+1.A} A-1.A ?A=0.A -> DONE ?CBIT=0.1 {B+1.A} A-1.A ?A=0.A -> DONE ?CBIT=0.2 {B+1.A} A-1.A ?A=0.A -> DONE ?CBIT=0.3 {B+1.A} A-1.A ?A=0.A -> DONE D0+1 GOTO LOOP *DONE A=B.A A+1.A GOSBVL PUSH#ALOOP LOADRPL ENDCODE FPTR2 ^#>Z ; @ and by the way, here is the program that was used to construct the table :: DOHEX ( change into HEX mode ) ( Change the following value to change the length of bit-table ) ( the length here is set to 1000, you'll need to change to 10000 to get the above table ) # 3E8 BINT3 DO INDEX@ FPTR2 ^#>Z DUP FPTR2 ^ZTrialPrime? ITE ZINT 1 ZINT 0 OVER ZINT 2 FPTR2 ^QAdd FPTR2 ^ZTrialPrime? IT :: ZINT 2 FPTR2 ^QAdd ; OVER ZINT 4 FPTR2 ^QAdd FPTR2 ^ZTrialPrime? IT :: ZINT 4 FPTR2 ^QAdd ; SWAP ZINT 6 FPTR2 ^QAdd FPTR2 ^ZTrialPrime? IT :: ZINT 8 FPTR2 ^QAdd ; FPTR2 ^Z># x>STR BINT3 BINT3 SUB$ &$ BINT8 +LOOP ; @ As you can see, the size of the programs is dominated by the size of tables, is there a workaround to avoid including the tables in both programs without influencing the speed of execution greatly!? I am quiet new to assembly programming, in fact these are my second or third succesful programs in ASM .. :-), so if you see any room for improvement then, please, till me! Feel free to use code in your programs, but remember that I wouls love to hear from you (*_*) __ ==== P.S. Programs NTHP NPRMZ and their source codes can be downloaded from http://algebra.ma.ic.ac.uk/~kb100/nthp.s http://algebra.ma.ic.ac.uk/~kb100/nprmz.s http://algebra.ma.ic.ac.uk/~kb100/nthp http://algebra.ma.ic.ac.uk/~kb100/nprmz __ Kamel ==== Both in Mint Condition with manuals. ==== Hey I have a HP49G calculator that is running is RPN mode. Now I wanted to look at the TAYLR function, but I can't get it to work! If I write like this: 3: '(1-X^2)^(0.5) 2: 'X' 1: '2' And then press blue arrow - Calc - Limits & Series - TAYLR I get this error message: ! TAYLR Error: Mode switch not allowed here !!!! What the hell have I done wrong? Please help.... Anders ==== Use (1-X^2)^(1/2) You got the error because you used floating point numbers, which are not allowed here!! In general you would want to convert them into fractions using XQ i.e. If you start with (1-X^2)^0.5 then you need to type XQ; this will return (1-X^2)^(1/2) ... __ Kamel ==== Anders ==== Are those the polynomiums that bloom in the spring, tra-la? ==== Are there any alternative OS or Kernals for the 49G? I know there were for the 48, but haven't seen any for the 49G,thanks. ==== implemented in the 49 calculator to an excellent calculator. J. Yuan escribi 227 en el mensaje for ==== --------------------------------------------------------------------- HP 48, HP 49, SCILAB, MAPLE books available in modular formatThese books are very helpful, I recommend that everyone take a look at them. A number of books that teach the use of the HP 48 G and HP 49 G calculators, SCILAB, and MAPLE are now available in modular form (i.e., by chapters) at: http://www.infoclearinghouse.com Some of the chapters are available for free. Come visit INFOCLEARINGHOUSE to find more about these books: For the HP 48 G: ============ 1 - Applications of the HP 48 G series calculator in probability and statistics 2 - HP 48 G/G+/GX Applications in HYDRAULICS - Civil Engineering Hydraulics 3 - ANALYTICAL and NUMERICAL METHODS WITH THE HP 48 G/G+/GX PROGRAMMABLE CALCULATOR For the HP 49 G: ============ 1 - Science and Engineering Mathematics with the HP 49 G - Volume 1 - Basic operation, solution to equations, vectors, matrices, graphics, programming, real and complex numbers 2 - Science and Engineering Mathematics with the HP 49 G - Volume 2 - Calculus, multi-variate calculus, vector calculus and vector analysis, ordinary and partial differential equations, statistics For SCILAB (a free, numerically-based environment): ==================================== 1 - Numerical and Statistical Methods with SCILAB for Science and Engineering - Volume 1 (Numerical Methods up to ODE solution) 2 - Numerical and Statistical Methods with SCILAB for Science and Engineering - Volume 2 (PDEs and statistics) ==== I picked up my 2nd HP48 at a pawn shop a couple weeks ago for $30. It looks to be in good shape, functions OK and came with a Cogo surveyors ROM card. While I am not a surveyor, the Cogo application appears to have a set of triangle solutions routines which I would like to get working. Only trouble is, I don't the manual which came with the original card. Can anyone help me get this running? The Cogo card is installed into slot-1 (the 32K-128K slot nearest the keypad). I also have a 1MB memory RAM card installed in slot-2 (ports 2-9 avail). I suspect I have to do something to the memory allocation to get the program running, but none of the obvious ideas (to me at least) seemed to resolve the problem. Whenever I try to run any of the triangle routines, I keep getting an insufficient memory error. Other functions on the Cogo card (such as housekeepping, editing & saving jobs, etc... -- though I have no idea what is truly going on) appear to work without the insufficient memory error occurring. I probably should just try to locate the manual, but all I really need is to get the triangle solutions running. Anybody have any ideas..??? Michael Millard Sarasota, FL ==== What brand cogo card is it? TDS, SMI, etc. I use the TDS card and there is a specific routine for installing the card. You first put the card n the #1 slot and run [alpla]TDS48 [enter] then at the promt you turn the calc off swap the card to #2 slot put ram card in slot #1 and turn it back on. at least that is the way I remember it. good luck. looks to trouble me keypad). I the what is occurring. to ==== you might want to go visit a local survey shop and see if they have a manual that they would be willing to let you read/copy. Also, you might want to make a photocopy of their keyboard template if yours does not have the template. Mark tampa, fl looks to trouble me keypad). I the what is occurring. to ==== Due to the lack of response in my physical/chemical library thread, and no luck in finding such a program, I've decided to start development on a phys/chem property library for the HP48. However, I have no programming experience (except for user-RPL), but I'm of course willing to learn. The premise of this library is very simple, and I figure it shouldn't be very difficult to get started on. I would like it to function much like Chemlab and the built-in Constant library, eg. basically a system of menus where you can output the value to the stack. So basically it has all been done before, it's just a matter of menu arrangement, and all the physical values I'll enter into the library. What I will do now is start to figure out what information I want in the lib, and how it should be arranged. Then I hope somebody will chime in and help me with the programming of the menu system. I would like to use Chemlab pretty much as a template of how the finished lib it should look. Of course there will be some details later (I have several fancy ideas), but as soon as the ball is rolling we can figure that out. The most important part is the menu system. Looking forward to a few responses... :-) ==== My HP48SX has a great program with physical prop's of the elements etc. It is on the HP EQ LIB card. ==== I have some biginers question.... -please where in HP49 are saved something like autoexec or configsys ? -and how can I edit aplication wich are loadin into memory during boot-up? / how can i edit this autoexec? -where I find out wich aplication are runing in backgroud (or is loaded in mem)? - wich program is THE BEST for downlading SW to HP?( can download direct to flash not only to Home) - how can i make directory in FLASH? why is flash command restricted in File Manager( i can not delete file in folder in Flash, i must it transfere in to home, make change and transfere folde back to flash, WHY???) ? - and the last one is: in 70% of all downloaded program in to 49g i cannot run it ....1. during transmition from PC to HP call: ..... not valid command ( but in many case this progam are tested and run ).. 2.or program on EVEAL call UNDEFINED XLIB NAME.. I try flash (FW 18>>19-5) but nothing help .. pliiiis help me! thanks ToM ==== Create a program in HOME directory called STARTUP. There's no 'loadin' of app, nor applications in the background. The HP49 does *not* have a multitasking OS. The HP one, for beginners. Later, you'll maybe use any {X,Y}MODEM or Kermit transfer program, on the OS of your choice. There's no directory in the Flash. Flash can only contain flat objects: libraries, programs, backups, strings, ... The same goes for the Port 0 and 1. Did you read the documentation of the programs before trying them? Start with the documentation of the HP49, even if it's bad, it's better than nothing. -- ----- Halaud, enhoir 216 ! Le GCU passe encore mais le GNU, jamais. -+- BL in Guide du Neuneu Usenet : A l'infu de fon flein gr 216.-+- 04:11:22 -0600) ==== 'STARTUP' [in HOME]; runs after each warmstart [ON+C] Store something and edit it like any normal variable. Well, there is no multi-tasking, although you can HALT some applications and return later, and you can set alarms which can run programs at specific times (but they will first CANCEL something currently running, or else wait for it to finish). Nothing is that good :) You'll have to download to HOME first (except for a ROM update, but doesn't even that operation first use some IRAM?) All ports (0,1,2) are only like what we call mini storage units in USA -- a place where you can store your packed up furniture, etc., but you can't live in it! Similarly, you can *store* whole directories away in ports, but you can't live in them -- you can't use it like user memory, because it isn't even *in* addressable memory (actually port 0 is, but that port is only a simulator for ports that aren't, and was created originally for HP48, for users that had not bought any plug-in memory cards), so think of port 0 as a ram disk, and the other ports as hard disks, none of which are usable as main memory ; that's why you have to transfer your stuff to use it. Any particular examples? (what URL?) [r->] [OFF] ==== Could anyone please tell me if there is a way I can run alg48 in the help would be greatly appreciated. Isabel ==== You must write a CHOOSE2 menu with the commands you want use, and store it with the name STARTEQW in HOME directory. For using, press CST in the EQW. I hope this helps you isabel escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== programming the 48...would it be too much if I asked that someone give me one example at least so I can then customize the rest my way. Or maybe you could at least direct me to the section of the manual that has a good example regarding the CHOOSE2 menu so I can then maybe figure out how to implement it. Many thanks, Isabel ==== This is an example with only 3 commands. Put all you want: << Title you want {RSIM ASIM FCTR } 1 CHOOSE2 IF THEN EVAL END>> This will let you apply a command to the selected part of the function. Feel free for asking more and more and more... isabel escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== You can run Alg48 commands inside MK EQW as you do it with Erable. When you press CST key you will run a custom program stored in STARTEQW variable with the object selected inside EQW has an argument in the level one of the stack. For example, if you put in EQW 'X+2*X' and press CST where the variable 'STARTEQW' is the program Ç RSIM È you have returned in the stack '3*X'. Now you can customize 'STARTEQW' to fit your needs, and an idea is to edit the program from ERABLE, renaming it's commands to be 'ALG48 compatible'. By the way, I have a program like that in my HP48, that will run some Paulo Pinheiro pjdpinheiro@clix.pt ==== oki.. i maby got a dumb question but... here it goes ive tryed to make a prog on hp48gx that draws some points and shows it all... (kinda animation ...lol) like: '(a,b)' ->NUM PIXON ...and than i change a and b whith rest of program.... but i kinda cant make it so it shows points being drawed... ...i tryed PICTURE... but its strange please help :) -- ==== Well, many things can be responsible for that behavior. First of all, all graphics commands do something in PICTURE but they don't show you what the picture looks like. If you want to watch how the points are plotted one after the other, you should add {#0 #0} PVIEW before your program starts drawing. PVIEW takes a list of coordinates x,y and shows the PICT starting at this coordinates at the upper left corener of the screen. This is only persistent while the program executes and when it ends, the stack is shown again. If you want to let the PICT visible after the end of the program, you can use 7 FREEZE. When you use FREEZE with the argument 7, then the whole display freezes until you press some button. If you want to go to the PICTURE environement when the program ends, then add PICTURE at the end of the program. If you still don't see anything, then that means that the plotted points are outside the PICT bounds. You must setup the right Plot PARameters. For example if you plot the point (-10,10) and your pict has XMIN=(-2,-2) XMAX=(2,2) then you will not see the plotted point, as it is outside PICT. Hope it helped, Nick. ==== Thanx alot, {#0 #0} PVIEW was just what i needed and by the way.. cant hp work a little faster? or is it my limited prog skill .. (i made a dot reflecting borders of screen...im beginner) I heard about Asm Development Studio v5.4. Will it work faster? Thanx again -- ==== Strange that you do not start it this way: << RCLF -55. CF ... >> Werner Huysegoms <44ec85ff.0203130205.3680abdd@posting.google.com> 18:14:11 -0600) ==== Re: << -55. CF RCLF ... Yes, that will preserve the original flag state (if anyone wants not to save user command arguments); I only thought of re-arranging it after posting, and decided not to bother with a fifth version of that same program :) Many of my old posted programs routinely include -55 CF (because they also use IFERR, which relates to that flag) and never care about restoring that flag's prior state, but this time, there's a natural opportunity to do so! [r->] [OFF] ==== Is anyone working or has someone been working with HP48 Program Development Link ( PDL ) in win95? Tal ==== Does anybody be pointed out my mistake, please. I am trying to add new units by using Unitman 2.7 on 49G. But I cannot define them or not working properly. For example, 1. psig (psi-gauge) = psi (absolute) - 14.6959 UnitDir PRESS UnitName psig Define '1_psi' -14.6959 Error message: Invalid object type 2. kg/cm2 UnitDir PRESS UnitName kg/cm^2 Define (blank) When I convert 1_psi to kg/cm2, I get CONVERT Error: Inconsistent Units . ==== Kenji Nagahama schrieb I canot help, for this. But it should be at least 14.6_psi (with unit). You might substract 1_atm... But no Idea how to handle differences with Unitman. The SI-Unit for a pressure is kg*m/(s^2*m^2) or kg/(s^2*m). Heiko ==== I don't know. This rather reminds me of the problems with temperature conversions; does 1 degree Celsius convert to 1 Kelvin or to 274.15 Kelvin? Similarly, does 1_psig convert to 1_psi or to 15.6959_psi? And does 2_psig convert to 2_psi, to 16.6959_psi, or to 29.3918 psi? I don't see a way to do what you want, but I'll give it some thought. Maybe someone else already knows how to handle this. the atm unit might be useful in this problem. Because kg/cm^2 would be mass per area. You need force per area; try kgf/cm^2. -- James <3c8f8ce1$0$260$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be> ==== Around here we use the Pascal. -- James ==== I don't knoe how to use Unitman, but here are a couple of things that are important. If you enter 1-psi and press UBASE, to get it in SI-units, then you get 6894.75729317_kg/(m*s^2), which shows you why the conversion psi to kg/cm^2 can't be done (inconsistend units). The unit definition '1_psi'-14.6959 is wrong both syntactically and mathematically. Syntactically because the whole thing should be enclosd in quotes, like '1_psi-14.6859' and mathematically because you add a dimensionless number to a number with the unit psi. Greetings, Nick. ==== Yes, it is the same as temperature conversions. 14.6959 psi = 0 psig 15.6959 psi = 1 psig 16.6959 psi = 2 psig Y [psig] X [psi] Y = X - 14.6959 Y [psig] X [atm] Y = 14.6959*X -14.6959 = 14.6959*(X-1) Same problem is occurred. <17d1fb3e.0203131923.621ce3c5@posting.google.com> ==== In case any readers haven't grasped what we're talking about, pressure (and vacuum ) gauges are usually designed and calibrated to measure pressure not in an absolute sense, but relative to ambient (usually atmospheric) pressure. Barometers are an exception to this, but even they are usually calibrated corrected to sea level . User defined units work well when the conversion doesn't involve any additive constants, but I don't see that they give us an obvious way to handle conversions that involve addition or subtraction. You might find the following to be a way to deal with it. 1._psi 'psig' STO << 1._atm - 0._psig CONVERT >> ' ->psig' STO << 1._atm + 0._psi CONVERT >> 'psig ->' STO Note that the zeros in 0._psig and 0._psi in the above programs are dummy values ; any real numbers would work as well. or: 1._psi 'psig' STO << 14.6959_psig - >> ' ->psig' STO << 14.6959_psi + >> 'psig ->' STO To enter a pressure in psig units, key in the value, then RightShift _, then press the psig function key, then ENTER. The ->psig programs convert an absolute pressure in any pressure units to a pressure in psig units. The psig -> programs convert a pressure in psig units to an absolute pressure in psi units, whence it can be converted to an absolute pressure in any other pressure units. But be careful! 0._psi ->psig 2 * psig -> returns -14.6959_psi (assuming that the second set of programs is used); rather a nonsensical result. In general, I think it would be best to avoid doing any math except subtraction and perhaps addition with the psig values; convert to absolute values first. Similarly, I wouldn't say that 20 degrees celsius is 2 times the temperature of 10 degrees Celsius, regardless of what the calculator tells me. If you know the actual atmospheric pressure (*not* corrected to sea level ) or the typical atmospheric pressure for the location you're working at, you might want to use that instead of 1_atm or 14.6959_psi. I don't think that UNITMAN is designed to handle such programs. Wolfgang? Yes, I meant simply that 1_atm might be substituted for 14.6959_psi if you want standard atmospheric pressure . Don't feel too bad about it; I've seen a good many pressure gauges calibrated in units of kg/cm^2 or kg/sq cm , silly as that seems. I've sometimes made the mistake of taking them at face value without thinking about it. With pounds I know that I have to decide whether mass or force is meant, but with kilograms it's easy to forget that kilograms force might be meant. -- You're welcome, James 02:49:38 -0600) ==== All units conversion (CONVERT or UMCONV), except between the built-in pure temperature units (as listed in 53 MENU), is by multiplication and division only, i.e. there are no additive constants in units definitions (until Wolfgang adds this to Unitman :) However, you can define your own functions which will convert between 1_psi and 1_psig units, e.g.: 'psig=1_?' DEFINE << 1_psig/psi * 14.6959_psig - >> ' ->psig' STO << 14.6959_psig + 1_psig/psi / >> 'psig ->' STO << 1_psi * >> 'upsi' STO << 1_psig * >> 'upsig' STO { { 1_psi { upsi psig -> } } { 1_psig { upsig ->psig } } 1_mmHg } TMENU This last menu is similar to other units menus, at least for multiplying and converting (I omitted defining right-shift as division, because it seems unlikely to be needed here), but note that to convert 'psig' to 'mmHg' you must first convert to 'psi' Mini-challenge: why not 'psig=1_psi' DEFINE ? Note that the relationship between 1_psi and 1_psig is similar to the relationship between 1_K and 1_ ^oC (absolute and relative [or gauge ] temperature), except for the value of the constant numeric difference; adding similar gauge units really means in the same sense as TINC (one quantity being absolute, the other only an increment) [r->] [OFF] <17d1fb3e.0203131923.621ce3c5@posting.google.com> 03:19:09 -0600) ==== To JMP: I didn't do a get new msgs and discover your very similar post (even the conversion program names :) until after I had submitted one (done over dinner break :) but here's what I was alluding to in my mini-challenge : This allows incompatible conversions, e.g. 1_psig is accepted again by ->psig, units menus with both 1_psig and 1_mmHg etc. will accept direct conversions, etc. -- all with invalid results. Using 1_? makes 1_psig incompatible with other units, and produces errors on any invalid conversion attempts, while still allowing valid operations. Now that I see we think exactly alike, I can stop posting here any more :) [r->] [OFF] <17d1fb3e.0203131923.621ce3c5@posting.google.com> ==== Well, you wouldn't have seen mine unless you got the new messages almost immediately before posting, and maybe not even then. Yes. My programs weren't designed to be foolproof. But suppose that the gauge on one tank reads 5_psig and the gauge on another tank reads 4_psig. That means that there's a pressure difference of 1_psig between them, which is exactly the same as a difference of 1_psi and in this particular case the conversions are valid. It does require the user to question whether what he's doing, and the result from the calculator, makes sense. But yes, I agree that it's better to force the user to convert to absolute pressure before doing any other conversions. Note that you can get strange results with the built-in temperature conversions too: All 48s and 49G: 10_ ^oC 2 * returns 20_ ^oC. Is a temperature of 20 degrees Celsius twice that of a temperature of 10 degrees Celsius? I'd think that 10 degrees C should be converted to 283.15 Kelvins, that multiplied by 2 to get 566.3 Kelvins, and that converted to 293.15 degrees Celsius. But the design gives us a temperature twice as far from the zero point on the Celsius scale; ok, I can see what they mean. For what I mean I simply have to convert to the base units myself before doing the multiplication. The same applies to both of our methods of dealing with psig. 10_ ^oC 10_^oC + returns 293.15_ ^oC. Now in this case my initial interpretation would be to start at 10 degrees on the Celsius scale and then move up another 10 degrees, but it seems that both arguments are converted to Kelvins, then added together, and the result is converted back to degrees Celsius; ok, I can understand the reasoning there too. But note that on the 48GX and 49G, this works exactly as I'd expect, even though on these newer calculators we could use TINC to do what I expected. Up to now, I'd only tried the ? unit in the example on currency conversion. Suppose that I'm already using the ? unit for currency, and now I also use it in the definition for psig. This makes psig convertible to currency. Would this be an example of putting on the pressure for more cash? It seems to me that the ? unit is essentially another base unit , but it just doesn't mean anything in SI, so it's up to the user to determine what it means. I wonder whether other characters (or strings) could be made to work like the ? for a unit name, so that we could have families of dimensionally consistent units that aren't tied to the ordinary built-in base units. Who knows? I keep reading of theoretical physicists who'd like a few more dimensions for their theories of everything ; maybe they'd find this useful. Wouldn't it be neat if the Grand Unified Theory were worked out on an HP calculator? Well, not always quite exactly. Please don't! I often learn something from your posts. James ==== The Japanese official retailer of HP's handheld PC and calculators entrusted by HP Japan has announced that HP Japan decided the end of sale about HP calculators. The retailer said that they stop selling the calculators as soon as the present stock in HP Japan has run out. Since distribution of HP calculators is too small business in Japan actually (HP could not beat Sharp and Casio), I think this decision was not avoidable. But I am afraid the same situation may be occurred in other countries sooner than is generally assumed. ==== I'm currently looking for a program for the 48GX that contains typical table values for lots of different solids, liquids and gases. Stuff like viscosity, density, pressure etc. Is there such a library for the 48GX? It would be easier for me to have all the info in the calculator, than to carry my physical databook all the time! :-) - Artur ==== Is there any way to directly convert a 'name' to a string . Like convert 'AB' to AB in an easy way? ==== Well, you can use ->STR 2 OVER SIZE 1 - SUB, else, there is a system rpl entrypoint, but I do not remember it's name... ==== Thanx, that works for me! 16:23:21 -0600) ==== 'AB' + ==> AB [on any 48/49 except very old 49 ROMs] or use the S~N command [49G only, using library 256] [r->] [OFF] ==== Now that's simple. Thanx! - Artur ==== Wow... what about + ? The SysRPL entry point seems to be ID>$. -- David Haguenauer ==== have anyone idea how i can ADD IR PORT to my new 49g in to case? I donot mean any extrerial box witch transferenig with special SW.. it`s must be possible to make . HP have and in the menu is box where i can choice PORT: wire (or ....) and I have other problem with buil-in rs-232...have anyone page or some pic,or data to buil HP=usb=PC cabel?...i see somthing for ti-89..its possilbe to use this scheme but must be updated for HP... thank everybody ToM ==== The problem is that the IR Led output is used to wrint on the fhash rom, so if you install a IR module on the 49 (by copying the 48 schematics) , you loose the 'write on rom' capabilities... as for USB, you can find some RS232 to USB chips of the shelf now, and it's self powered through the usb cable! regard,s cyrille donot the some ==== I'm using the YUserfast.exe emulator of the HP49. 1) is there a way to send a file to the pc? 2) is there another emulator which sends a file to a pc? (gimme a link, please...) -- The set of solutions is never empty. Two solutions together form a new problem. -- Mycroft Holmes ==== hi, I don't know what YUser... is able to do regarding the I/O. You could use Emu48 with the 49G ROM & skin. Then you have I/O, of course, and drag'n'drop;-) Raymond Mycroft Holmes schrieb im Newsbeitrag ==== I don't believe the I/O works with the York emulator. Your best bet is to use Emu48 (with a 49 ROM image and skin), it is probably the best emulator around and has working I/O. You can get it at: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/ along with a KML script of your choice. ==== You can find other emulators in: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/emulators/ Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK **************************************************************************** *** ==== '49G messages listed, ready to be translated!: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/programming/mstbl49g.zip A previous list (from Sune Bredahl) was not complete and needed to be updated. BTW, any Easter egg among them? Bye. HPCC member #1046 - -- ==== That's not all. I just had a look at the Calculators on the Closeouts page of hpshopping.com and found the following calcs: 10bii, 17bii, 32sii and 48G+ ==== I have, maybe, a stupid queston about hp49. How to change fast between RPN and ALG mode? Maybe there is some shortcuts, like to change between exact and aproximate mode you can use LSH+NUM. And why changing flag(I think it's 95, I don't remember exactly) doesn't change mode? ==== Easy: Stay in RPN mode and use the single quotes for 'expression' or the EQW when you need algebraic expressions and avoid using Algebraic Mode at all. ==== In the EQW there is a SIMP command. Is there a similar command that can be used on the stack? Danny ==== Re: [49] Simplify SIMPLIFY -- David Haguenauer ==== Where did you get this speedup? More info please? . I own a Hp49 which has a speedupmax module. I can activate it by pres= sing the ON button for a few seconds. The clock is set to 6 MHz in this mode. Is recognizable faster than wit= hout it. -- Andreas Korinek ********************************** Charly was a chemist, but Charly is no more, for what he thought was H2O was H2SO4. ==== I know that Cynox has a speed module but I know nothing at all about it. Look at: http://www.cynox.de/en/intasch.htm J. Yuan escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== The URL is: http://www.dynatech.de/trechner/zubehoer/geraete/SpeedUp.ht m Translation (well, sort of, by Google): SpeedUp MAX module for Calculator Module for the increase of the arithmetic performance * 2 and 3 times subjective arithmetic performance (up to 5 times increase towards the old Ti-92) * 100 % faster data communication to the PC * 100 % faster data communication between two computers with in each case inserted SpeedUp MAX modules The installation of the SpeedUp MAX of module increases the speed of t he CPU. Depending upon model one can receive the triple computing achieve ment with SpeedUp MAX: * Hp-48 G * Hp-48 GX * Hp-49 G * Ti-82 * Ti-83 * Ti-83 PLUS * Ti-85 * Ti-86 * Ti-89 * Ti-92 * Ti-92 II * Ti-92 plus Casio and Sharp of models in preparation After the installation by our qualified technical personnel the compu ters are submitted to a 24 hour test run. You a TOP product is delivered by very high-quality construction units and our quality management. (caut ion before unqualified reproductions - there are not only clear quality differences in regard life span of your computer.) The respective terminal velocity, is determined among other things by t he inserted processor. The SpeedUp MAX module is in such a way designed t hat it obtains the maximum speed for the respective computer model. The operation of the plus module, elastic module or an older graph left ver sion is not affected. Result: By the SpeedUp MAX module of fast tasks solve and time for other probl em solutions win. -- Andreas Korinek ********************************** Charly was a chemist, but Charly is no more, for what he thought was H2O was H2SO4. ==== It still looks summarize quite well what HP is all about now. rebranding of cheap stuff. I wonder if they produce something on their own now apart of some printers ==== Well yes, but then we'd miss the fun of thinking up uses for DBUG as a programmable command. I suppose that I should've included a ;-) with my previous post. -- James ==== I want create a meu with the standard folder symbol in some keys, but I can«t remember where I read how to get the grob... ==== in SysRPL you could use the word DirLabel: (yes, with colon after the 'l') Usage: DirLabel: $ will produce a folder menu label with the text from $. The other way round is MakeDirLabel. Usage: $ MakeDirLabel Result will be the same. Raymond R Lion schrieb im Newsbeitrag ==== Once more, thank you Raymond. Raymond Hellstern escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== I also don't know how and what grob (?) should be used, but perhaps it helps you to know that existing directories will show up with the folder tab in a menu. If you already have a directory RAUL and you do { RAUL } menu, then the menu will be: -- RAUL Greetings, Nick. ==== Ok, Nick. But in this case, I don't want access to an existing directory... I'm using Raymond's help. Everybody helps: the group, works. Nick Karagiaouroglou escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== I just uploaded the whole trigonometry marathon in PDF format with nice formulae to hpcalc. File TRMARPRO.zip in Docs/Misc. The PDF contains an additional part about the trigonometric capabilities of the HP48 and about programming such things like TREXPAND, TRLIN etc only with UserRPL on the HP48. (Dedicated to George Tsiros ;-) ) The file TRMARPRO.zip contains also TRISOL and an HP48 directory containg the UserRPL programs that enhance the trigonometric capabilitites of the HP48. Hope somebody enjoys it. Greetings, Nick. ==== i'm unable to open: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/misc/ wath's happened?? Acrux, Italy Nick Karagiaouroglou ha scritto nel messaggio ==== Hmm, strange! I also have that problem. I see only the start of the page, but no contents. Could it be that my incompatibility infected the PDF, which in turn brought the server to its knees? ;-) GREETINGS, NICK. ==== DOS his site. naughty Nick, very naughty Nick... ;) YES!!! MANY GREETINGS FROM GREECE TOO!!! GREETINGS!!!! GEORGE! p.s.:sorry Nick... it is 6am and i am still up... my head is in [ON]+[SPC] mode %-| ==== Oh, then you understand me as we are in the same status. Perhaps there is someone compatible to Nick after all? ;-) 03:02:50 -0600) ==== At this moment, every search I try at hpcalc.org finds *no* hits whatsoever, unfortunately. Perhaps it is slightly under the weather :( Hope it gets well soon! Ref: http://groups.google.com/groups?th=d22fbd39f605bb30 [r->] [OFF] ==== (if MDG wants to), so everything linked to it will go into GPL too.. It's like a virus you know.. into ----- <38sk8uo6eii8o5oqkejjp1g70dohurqnrv@4ax.com> ==== That's certainly the best news I've read here for quite a long time. And if anyone was wondering why Bill Gates is so dead-set against open-source software.... -- James <38sk8uo6eii8o5oqkejjp1g70dohurqnrv@4ax.com> ==== I agree, this is great news... I didn't know that the HP49 ROM was so -- ----- Think carefully before wishing, it might just come true. ==== Avenard You got that right. I like to read about the history of technology. I'm currently reading The dream Machine; J.C.R. Licklider and the Revolution That Made Computing Possible by M. Mitchell Waldrop. Towards the end, he gets into Xerox and the PARC fiasco. At that time Xerox was run by a numbers guy to end all numbers guys . Xerox had a chance to lease 5 prototype laser printers to Lawrence Livermore Lab. This guy pulled out his pencil & figured that Xerox could lose $150,000. Sorry, no deal. The guy didn't understand the possibility of pioneering a new product that could bring in Billions. Of the Alto, Xerox had a Xerox World Conference in Boca Raton, Florida in Nov. 1977. PARC had everything there. A word processor working in Japanese for example. Fuji Xerox clamored 'give us this! We'll manufacture it!' The executives' wifes all got it (many of them at one time were secretaries). Everybody got it but the top executives. Talk about a mistake !!!!! Time & time again, I've read about bean counters running a company into oblivion. I firmly believe that Ms. Fiorina is running HP in the same direction. To me, the Compaq merger is a symptom of her Mis-management. HP might as well as merge with TI - it's much the same. John Edry ==== Once the entrepreneurs that started the company are gone and 'executives' take over, it is typically a corporation run from what ever is the fashionable business model. In other words the original purpose; producing a great product, goes to making profits. It is a process of entropy that invades all social constructs. ==== I thought that was confidential? Is this why you have HP layers visit so often? ;-)) No, but there is till more than a year to that. Harsh? Because I say that HP as we know it is dead? That's even your own opinion, right? They wouldn't even let you release a new ROM before you left, although you had it all ready. That's not harsh, that's reality. I hope :-) Sure, but you have a way........ :-) In this situation? You mean in the situation where HP stopped development of new calculators, and stopped support for it? I wouldn't say that this was the best time to get a HP49G. The HP49G does have many features, and ROM v1.19.6 is very good. The problem is that the benchmark is ROM v1.18 for at least a year to come. That's not very good - it's actually pretty horrible. going what a Then we agree? Why are we arguing.... :-) 15:49:06 -0600) ==== http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C8998E8.F4829E0F%40miu.edu ==== Also without deleted variables! http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C8998E8.F4829E0F%40miu.edu [sorry if dup; original post disappeared from original server!] ==== It's very very interesting, and not only because now you can use ISOL safely ;-). But are there any other hidden dangers, when doing that? If I learned something using the HP49G, then this is to doubt anything. ( Good exercise for better playing poker. ;-) ) Greetings and thanks, Nick. ==== No; there are no dangers in saving and restoring flags :) Neither is there any danger in saving the original contents of a purged variable and restoring it (the keyboard PURGE function also enables you to recover a purged variable by saving its original contents and name). But there are distinct added advantages to using this helper, viz. that it removes current bugs, such as where the CAS ignored flag -120 ( silent ) and asked anyway about deleting the current variable; it also detects a name conflict (more than one variable with the same name as currently saved in 'VX'); it could even fix the recently posted numerical integration error with ->NUM (simply insert RAD before EVAL in 'XCASV' to add this fix). What, UserRPL doesn't work yet in the 49G? :-) (The one included syseval is merely the system PURGE command, which the CAS is going to do anyway). [r->] [OFF] ==== Hmmm, I don't mean that John. But anyway, only time will tell if something goes wrong doing this. ( Salvations offered too often, that had yet another demon smiling behind your back ;-) ) Oh, it does. But often in unexpected, mysterious ways. ;-) Greetings, Nick. <2953da04.0203121506.4af86f09@posting.google.com> 19:37:41 -0600) ==== What do you mean, then? What can go wrong with saving flags and the current variable before a command, and then restoring them afterwards? Does this offer any more opportunity for something to go wrong than if you *manually* set your modes back to DEGrees, etc. again after using CAS commands? (which is what I suppose many people must have been doing all this while :) In the 48, many commands internally change flags temporarily (flag -3 is especially popular in this regard), but the flags are always restored after any command except SF, CF, FS?C, FC?C, with errors trapped to guarantee this. In the 49, the CAS commands (and even some 48 commands which the CAS has taken over) don't do this any longer, so all that I have offered is an automated way to clean up after rude commands, to guarantee that the environment is left exactly as they found it. As I said, a couple of current bugs can also be fixed at the same time, by doing pre-emptively the silent operations which a couple of CAS functions forgot to do themselves; again, this is no more dangerous than if *you* set RAD mode or purged 'X' manually yourself, before invoking the command. What I posted does nothing more than this: 1. Keep a copy of the current flags and the current variable (if any). 2. Do the command, with silent mode changes and/or purge (if any). 3. Set the flags back again and restore the current variable (if any). You can do #1 and #3 manually, if you wish, or you can do it automatically, using this little tool. [r->] [OFF] ==== I mean, perhaps #8C27h SYSEVAL itself does also something that influences the behavior of the calculator in an unpredictable way, or perhaps some other function works in such a way, that the resulting state of the calc after doing #8C27h SYSEVAL colides with the way that the particular function works. So what exactly does #8C27h SYSEVAL? If #8C27h SYSEVAL is so clean then nothing can go wrong, but this is exactly what I wonder: Is it that clean? No doubt that you try to help us all, it is only what I said above. As I understand it, point 2. is what #8C27h SYSEVAL does. (?) If so, is there no danger at all, that it also does something additional, for example some changes that influence the calculator in such a way, that the previous settings are no more recoverable, or that some function doesn't work properly? Since I had oo (infinity) as a variable name (do you remember?), I fear and doubt. But I gave your programs a try, and they work just fine. Only such cases like putting DEG or RAD in the menu list can be a little annoying. But then one can mix it, like { DEG RAD RECT CYLIN } { XQ EXPAND } XCASM + MENU, to have both mode changing and mode retaing commands in one menu. Nick. P.S.: Can I believe that this time is end of fear and doubt? ;-) ==== Does anyone know le equivalence of DIV2 on HP48GX ? I search for that prog...without results ! Help please ! THX ==== I'm using a 200LX and the user reference for the built in solver is not very good. For instance, it doesn't explain the following equation which I found (very good motion equation): 0*(A+T)+ IF((S(Vf) or S(Vi) or S(A) or S(T)) :Vf-Vi-A*T :0*L(Vf:Vi+A*T)+Xf-Xi-.5*T*((Vf+Vi)) What's the syntax for IF and S()? Are there any books or reference that explains how to use Solver? I would think that the Solver used in the other HP calculators are the same. I found out that the 200LX built-in calculator has majority of all the functions of a 12C after reading the 12C manual. weemeng ==== you could take a look at http://www.palmtop.net/ Raymond Wee-Meng Lee schrieb im Newsbeitrag ==== points to http://www.thaddeus.com/ftp/database/slv_hlp.zip Just what I needed. Rgds weemeng 14:56:31 -0600) ==== which was in charge of handhelds for a while :) So, documentation problems actually began quite a while ago? ;-) Is this the same as the Finance solver? IF(logical_expression:do_if_true:do_if_false) S(X) means 'true if solving for variable X' (this in effect allows completely different formulas to be used when solving for different variables) It's still the same on all the latest HP financial calcs (17B, 19B) [r->] [OFF] ==== Anybody know where I can get software that Hewlett Packard put into public domain? In particular I'm looking for epsprint to enable printing 48GX graphics on a inkjet printer. I've tried hpcalc.org and HPs calculator ==== Google with 'epsprint hp48' showed up this link: http://www.chez.com/sgourichon/hp48/collection/utils/communic/ Hope that helps, ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralf Fritzsch Bundesanstalt fuer Wasserbau Federal Waterways Engineering and Research Dienststelle Kueste Institute - Department Hamburg ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15:08:04 -0600) ==== Always try google.com: http://www.hp.com/calculators/software/48g/gd9.html http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=240 http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/compilations/horn/horn9.zip [r->] [OFF] ==== Anybody has an PPC rom manual for HP41CX(i am using MicroCode emulator on Windows 95[what a great calculator]!) ==== Well, anyone who bought one when the PPC created them should have *four* manuals (!!). When the ROM was created, the actual order was so much larger than the club first expected, that they were able to get twice as many of them for the price that they originally expected them to be. So each of us who ordered one got *two* for our money. What's more, each ROM came with the ~3cm thick manual in both bound and loose-leaf form. With an estimated man-century of work documented thoroughly in it. Check the hpcalc.org CD-ROMs which may have the contents on 'em. If so, I'd recommend them. Jim Horn, WB9SYN/6 (PPC #1402; CHHU, etc.) ==== I would appreciate it if it could be possible to receive the PDL.ini file (HP48 Program Development Link) for WIN95. Tal ==== The PDL.ini file has nothing to do with Windows. The DOS program PDL.exe save his current settings in this file. I personally recognized earlier, that the program makes trouble connecting the calcuator on very fast PC's. I used the following settings with more or less success (it was better, but not really solved): ; Number of milliseconds to pause before sending each Kermit packet ; (useful for solving synchronization problems between the HP 48 and ; a very fast or very slow PC). Default: 20. KermitPacketDelay = 100 ; Comma-delimited custom Kermit commands. ; Example: set send pause 0, set retry 10 . Default: none. CustomKermit = set send timeout 20, set receive timeout 20 You may play especially with the CustomKermit setting. The used PDLKERM.exe file is an old or early version (with a limited instruction set) of the standard DOS KERMIT.exe file available at: http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/mskermit.html You may download the base package to get a manual. Another interesting page is: http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/hp48.html Have fun, Christoph Tal schrieb im Newsbeitrag ==== Can somone give me some resources on how to convert 48 games to 49? I'm not very experienced in programming but am willing to learn. There are tons of good programs/games for the 48 but the equivalent 49 archieve is a little lacking. ==== Maybe on www.hpcalc.org Raymond J. Yuan schrieb im Newsbeitrag ==== http://www.hp-network.com Docs / Assembleur In French !!! Raymond Hellstern a 216crit dans le message not of little ==== There appears to be an active development effort bring all kinds of interesting open source software to WinCE devices: http://www.rainer-keuchel.de/software.html - Paul ==== Any good ones? I'm working on a converting a few by Bach by any other ones (video game or classic?) ==== Hmmm! Can you transcript Van Halen's Eruption ? Or do you think that the HP49 will be blown down to pieces? ;-) Greetings, Nick. ==== Are there any tips on using PARTFRAC with the 49G??? I frequently receive error messages like PARTFRAC ERROR Undefined Solution . Perrone ==== Solution . Which ROM are you using? ==== Im using ROM 1.19-6. Sometimes I have also the error PARTFRAC Error - Numeric Input . Sometimes I dont get the result I expected. ieg: Aplying PARTFRAC to 10(x+1)/x(x^2+2x+2) (Note that (x^2+2x+2) has complex roots: -1+i and -1-i). gives me 10x/x(x^2+2x+2)+10/x(x^2+2x+2). Wich is very obvious and I dont want useless results like that. I would like to have something like A/x + B/x+1-i + C/x+1+i Is there a way I can do this With the expression 1/x^2+4x+5 ir works fine and gives the result I wanted: i/2/x+2+i - i/2/x+2-i. Whats happening??? The command PARTFRAC doensnt look consistent to me!!! Probably me mistake!! I dont know. ==== Using Erable in my 48GX in COMPLEX MODE I get 5/x + ((-5-5i)/2)/(x+1-i) + ((-5+5i)/2/(x+1+i) as you expect Are you using complex mode? Perrone escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== Then use exact input. Please be thorough when writing down expressions - the above expression is invalid. I guess you mean '10*(X+1)/(X*(X^2+2*X+2))'? Really? I wouldn't have guessed.... Then be in complex mode, or you'll of course get real results only. ==== Yes, I am. And thats why it solved correctly the other expression I ways. Aprox and exact modes, numeric on, off (this one it asks to change to off). Perrone ==== Yes, I did. Then be in complex mode, or you'll of course get real results only. All the results i got were with Complex Mode, or I wouldn't have the Perrone ==== Take a look at these. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=pt&frame=right&th=dd119bf686d1c3f4&seekm= 3AC42C7D.714EACF%40fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr#link1 ==== I use ROM 1.19-6. Having set exact mode and complex on I type '10*(X+1)/(X*(X^2+2*X+2))' and the result of PARTFRAC is 5-5i 5+5i ---- ---- 2 5 2 - ----- + --- - ------ X+1+i X X+1-i which is correct! !Demeter! ==== You're right. And then it takes me to another doubt!!! If you enter 10(x+1)/x(x^2+2x+2) just like this, without writing the * operator, it returns 10x/x(x^2+2x+2) + 10/x(x^2+2x+2). This is what I was doing before. Now, if you enter 10*(x+1)/x*(x^2+2x+2) OR 10*(x+1)/(x*(x^2+2x+2)), that is waht you did (entering the * operator, it gives you the correct answer 5-5i 5+5i ---- ---- 2 5 2 - ----- + --- - ------ X+1+i X X+1-i. But the calculator is supposed to understand 10(x+1) as 10*(x+1), and it does with other functions!!!!! Why it doesn't work in this one??? Is it a bug???? Anyway Demeter, thanks a lot, you really helped me with a problem that was getting to my nerves!!!! Perrone ==== I think the error is because x(...) is a user defined function... Isn't it? Perrone escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== The partial fraction decomposition depends on whether you are in REAL or COMPLEX mode. The form of result you appear to want can only be found when in COMPLEX mode. ==== I don't know. I have just bought my 49 and I'm still getting used to it, don't know whats a user defined funcion. ==== Look in your user guide for the command DEFINE Perrone escribi 227 en el mensaje Isn't ==== if you type x(x+1), it's understood as function 'x' with argument 'x+1', like f(x+1) with f=x if you prefer... which doesn't mean much, in fact! Simple things sometimes can break one head. Perrone ==== Allow me to have another opinion about the meaning of x(x+1). Actually such constructs allow a much much deeper view of mathematics. http://www.ltn.lv/~podnieks/gt.html Nice! Better break it, instead of letting it catch dust. ;-) Greetings, Nick. ==== Has anyone gotton this program to work? http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4588 I get an error saying x library not found or something to that effect each time I try to use it. ==== I have never used this program, but I notice the instructions state that BZ+49 must be installed to operate it. Did you do so? What library is indicated in the event you have installed BZ+49? Dennis ==== I installed BZMan49, what is bz+? BZ+49 in ==== I don't know what bz+ is, I just read the description of the program you installed :) It might be this program though: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/utils/compress/bz49.zip ==== You don't see a difference between a beta and a release ROM? Are you happy, if your car needed a beta ECU program, installed at the first service, to work? Would that car manufacturer be as professional as the one that had stable ECU ROMs from the beginning, in your opinion? Does HP endorse the use of v1.19.6? No. A user should be very confident in himself, if he was to load a beta ROM into his calc. You can't get any support, and the warranty is viod. If the calc dies on your, with a beta ROM loaded, you're on your own. How many, shelling out USD 200 for a calc, are willing to run that risk? Not many outside this group are, and even some here aren't. You can't just tell someone to go load ROM v1.19.6 - it's bad business and unprofessional. As far as I'm concerned, HP does not back any stable ROMs for the '49. Re-label ROM v1.19.6 to v1.20, and you have yurself a very good release ROM. No, he probably doesn't. The manual says that there may be more ROMs, and that you can upgrade the calc. 99% of the customers does not know which effect a ROM upgrade can have, hence they don't know that a ROM upgrade can maybe solve their stability problems. I know many that complain about the '49 crashing, and most use v1.10 or v1.18. The calc should at least function properly with the OEM loaded ROM. The '49 does not. If we take a brand new Plextor CDRW for a PC as an example. You come home, and you find out that it cannot write on a certain brand of blank CDs that you've bought. You go read the Plextor FAQ (because yu're proficcient with the internet, as you may not even be, if you buy a HP49G), and it says to upgrade your ROM (such a Plextor burner also has Flash technology). You then load that new ROM, and your media gets burned fine now. You then discover that the new ROM make the eject button not work. The Plextor FAQ does not even list this problem, nor has it a solution for it. Some guys that worked for Plextor a while back, have released a couple of beta ROMs for that Plextor burner. One of the latest betas fix the problem with the eject button, while keeping the new media working. You don't know that this ROM exist, and Plextor does not metion it on their site. You have, maybe, seen pages found with Google that mention some beta ROMs for your CDRW, but they are not endorsed nor supported by Plextor, so you don't dare use them. I'd take that burner back! Docs on the web is fine, but that documentation wasn't there at release, was it? How long was it, before we could point people towards it? There we have many of the porblems about the HP49G. It's a French calculator. I thought mathematic was universal? Are French students used to find SQRT(X^2-1), Square root, SQRT(X^2-1) Rational fraction, 0 Rational fraction, (-1/2)*(2/-(2*X)) 'X/2*SQRT(X^2-1)+1/2*LN(SQRT(X^2-1)-X)' in their math books? I think not. You could've done an effort to make the s-b-s feature more universal. What about more explanations? Why are some commands called for example DEDICACE and DROITE? You know that only French people will understand what they are for. If the user wants s-b-s help, performance is not a problem. Why not really show the steps? For example: S(SIN(X),X) -> '-COS(X)', by elementary function table look-up. Where 'S' is the integration character . For example: S(F(U),X) -> 'F(U)*X', Any term not involving the integration variable is considered a constant term U, and hence merely multiplied by the integration constant. These different output messages in the s-b-s mode should then be described in the manual, with examples so the user can understand what's happening. When I first bought my HP48 series calculator, I learned more math than I knew before from the manual. Many of the things it can I wasn't been tought yet in school. Ididn't know how to get by improper integration for example. I learned how to by the HP48 manual. 'SIN(U)*(1/2*X^2)' (X 'rational on how the Where is it shown in the manual, which methods the calc can use, and how they work? One could use more display real estate, and more words to point out which parts of the expression was involved at what time in the solution. One could seperate all terms, and take them one at a time. Then factors/constants could be extracted and handled like this: S(F(U)*F(X)) -> F(U)*S(F(X)), Constants are merely factored out of the integration and multilplied onto it afterwards. Any factor not involving the integration variable is considered a constant factor F(U) This should of course also be explained in the manual, with examples. THEN you could do something like 'X' is a polynomial expression, and integrated term by term like this: S(a*X^n) -> a/(n+1)*X^(n+1) Had the above been a true fraction, like '(X^2+X-6)/(X^2+2*X-24)', do you expect all students to be able to integrate that? You could have shown this then: '(X^2+X-6)/(X^2+2*X-24)' is a rational fraction, and a general rational fraction is integrated one term at a time, of its partial fraction decomposition..........something And then shown step-wise, first the PARTFRAC result, then 'each term' to 'a/b*LN(X+c)' and then.... with Of course it does not, but that is not the question. What if you don't have a teacher nearby - shouldn't the manual be helpful then? There is more than linearization to the solution of the above example too - you could show how the constant (5) was handled, and that you used the property S(x*EXP(x+n)) -> (X-1)*EXP(X+n) (or whichever you used). What about my other examples, are they obvious you think? What about WinCE? Also - as long as Intel makes StrongARM processors, most ARM kernels will survive too. the It'd be the same with anything written in C/C++/EC++. Not that many parts of the kernel needs to be in assembly, with todays embedded processors. I ==== Of course the salaries were in the budget, but I'm also talking about technological aid, not merely echonomical. at Again? :-) new Ok, but that's a first for me. I guess nobody here have ever heard this version before? So, HP abandoned the HP49G, before a stable ROM could be released? That's not backing the ACO - that was all there was in my first statement. I said that HP didn't ever back the ACO, and I'm right. If they did, the products would be finished, and in good working order. But it was released after. What about the HP48G+? YOU have always stated that this was merely to raise money - why, if HP paid everything? I guess no one at HP has the ROM sources for any HP calculator then? That seems very odd. Whatever the cause, when I talked with Cyrille about this, HP goodwill was not a major concern. It was practically non-existent. If it was him exagerating, then let that be. This was a couple of months before the release of the JX25 - you now where. Not much was available on that box, right? Not even a LAN connection I was told. Sure, but I would expect HP to be able to recreate the project. That's the responsebility of any project manager, to save enough information to be able to do just that. That we have done everywhere I have evr worked here in Denmark - I can only hope it is like that in the rest of the world. Does HP save precious information now? It I thought you didn't agree with me, that HP is gone as we know it? You do, I see. HP did start the ACO for a reason, so of course they supported it at first. HP didn't seem to care though, since no real investment was made - I'm talking about technological and spiritual backing here, not a few USD. But you know best, of course. If you say that HP stands 100% completely behind the ACO in everything, then I won't try to convince you otherwise. ==== It won't be soon, it won't be a calculator, but it will be under USD 400. I don't think so - it wouldn't compete with a Voyager 200, so they'd probably need to create some new shelfspace, right next to their other high-tech equipment. Do they have such shelf space currently? I think not, but it's not important.. I hope not, as the current projects aren't exactly for schools. I'm going back to the customers for old HP handheld products - these are mainly engineers and geeks. Data/Math/Phys/Chem Students will of course culd use one, but it'll depend on price if it's attarctive. It'll of course replace their PDA and much more... It'll can of course be a very powerful calculator, and only software will set the limits of what it'll be able to do as a calculator. the display (if you need one) will be of much better quality than what you expect today. Of course, the technological step we are at in two years time will tell us what display to use, but currently we're using a high quality Seiko display. This will easily fit the bill, so it probably won't get any worse, quality wise. I can't tell you much of the concept, but you can look at it like a device with computing power to feed at least one and probably two or more firewire ports, or to invert a 100x100 matrix in less than one second. It will have power enough to act as a 8-way (or more) LAN switch if needed. What you need of I/O capabilities, display, battery power, computing power and so on is mainly defined by the user. So is the implementation via software (is it to be a caluclator or an oscilloscope, or maybe both? - the user decides). Again - expect nothing and you'll be positively surprised. The ACO? If anything, it was their demise that started it :-/ ==== Well, economically perhaps it was, but technologically it has many (hidden) strengths. I'm also convinced since a long time that the ACO was treated pretty much like a step daughter by HP. But JYA says No . Well, perhaps he has a different opinion about what treated like a step daughter means. I think HP didn't realize what potential is in his mind and in the mind of BP. Exactly my thoughts. What could I add more? When such brilliant people like the ACO team are treated like that? Greetings, Nick. ==== Yeah! See the advantages when there are apparently only disadvantages. Perhaps HP did the its best for TI/HP-Users-Unification releasing the HP49G. ;-) Yes, I meant messages like Integrating by parts or similar, which are more on the abstract side, without mentioning the exact algorithm could look like.) So in this cas the victims were the bugs and not the ants. ;-) Yes, I must fight with them everyday. ;-) Greetings, Nick. ==== You get one free when buying a batch of HP Paper (White Male Premium or so). Did anyone at ACO read his books, not to learn RPL (of course!) but to learn how to write good documentation? Did anyone ask Jim about why he spent so much time working on documentation? Did anyone ask him about his job for the HP-71B and other obsolete calcs? Did anyone ask him what is so exciting about collecting HP calcs? Did anyone ask him about not providing an attachable keyboard or about rubber keys? Did anyone ask him why HP calcs had such a great reputation? Was Jim's involvement in the HP48 minimum? ACO's involvement in traditional HP quality has been null. Moreover, harmful. HP49 = HP48 - HP Quality + Lots of Easter eggs + (MK + CAS, which were '48 apps) Bye. HPCC member #1046 PS: Did anyone ask Jim about the colour blue? :-) ==== Well, I happen to agree with Micah, the SATURN is a nice CPU, but you have to admit it's outdated! it's a 20 year old architecture, based on requirements that are not valid anymore. As for the software, they are nice tricks in it, and it's a piece of jewelry, but again, of outdated jewelry. The functionality are nice (for most of them), so I fully agree to the fact that it should be rewritten in a more modern language on a more modern CPU (what about an arm platform?) hardware for ==== -Find me a computing system that has so low levels of power consumption. (even a damn pen(cil) can't last for months!!!) -The fact that something is old, might mean that it is tested, proven reliable and worthy. -Me and a friend are trying to find super-low consumption CPUs. Guess what. The saturn has proven to be so low power, that only one or two systems are so well designed that can deliver so low power/MHz... one of which is actually technology in development *NOW*. (has to do with saving energy at the logic gate level 8-| ) i like you, man, thanks for your work on the 49... ==== A prototype motherboard I'm testing a bit on currently, runs more than 70 hours on one battery charge. This is including a high resolution display (higher res than the TI92+), a keyboard and a very powerful CPU (can't tell you which, but the pack delivers performance roughly 500-3000 times that of the HP49G). The LiON cells I'm using right now are around 3500 mAh combined. We're aiming at at least 200 hours continuos on (without backlight), and that doesn't seem too unreachable. Newer technology beats the Saturn in most ways as I see it. No wonder - it's 20 years old, as Cyrille points out. 19:02:25 -0600) ==== How old is the 'x86' family? When is it finally going to cease production? (along with MS-DOS?) In other words, if it were desired (which it wasn't), the Saturn could have been scaled up a bit, just as was that Intel stuff ;-) But today you'd presumably want to rewrite everything in more general and portable languages, and you could still slip a Saturn emulator and some old roms (48 and 49) into some corner, and retain all existing working software. Actually, what would even be wrong with a piece of silicon which has both a new processor and a Saturn on board? Just as HP built the latest HP financial calc into several newer products, someone could, one way or another, build several existing HP calcs into any new product, and thus give potential purchasers (if any :) an easy upgrade path. But you could take more market share away from TI if you could also build all the TI8x/92 into it ;-) [r->] [OFF] ==== I don't think so at least not after what you said ! What the hell does that mean ? You say that the HP49 has been correctly funded ? Then why the Hell have you needed to design and to sell the HP48G+ ? Why have you wasted some time and some money on this calculator when you could have directly worked on the HP49 ? Perhaps even you would have had enough time and money to design a faster C.P.U and a better controller than the Yorke. Also if you were correctly funded for the HP49G,how come this calculator had such a poor documentation and marketing ? Because for me it is either a lack of money or a lack of competent people. Ok about the HP6S but you haven't answered about the HP48G+. Why have you(A.C.O) released the HP48G+ if you didn't need money for further developpements ? This is certainly why it has an outdated hardware and the worse documentation ever released for an advanced calculator all companies commbined. <3X9i8.796$Z25.79168@news000.worldonline.dk> <80e7cd6f.0203120521.4b58dfcc@posting.google.com> ==== What is the purpose of a company? Make money. That's a good enough reason to make good people work on easy products, that they'll be able to sell easily. That way, the margin is much higher than what you can get with a new product like the HP49 was. So asking for people to make profit is not unreasonable, even if they have sufficient money to build a new product. I think the HP48G+ was an easy way of getting some more money, and make the market wait without going into the Evil Side (tm). Silly. The time needed to develop an entire new product including a totally new hardware is much higher than was was permitted. -- ----- D'accord, mais si on se met 210 utiliser des arguments intelligents dans ce genre de d 216bat, il devient impossible de discuter. Vous sombrez dans la facilit 216. -+- TS in GNU : La dialectique n'est plus ce qu'elle 216tait. ==== Well, let us put it that way, the saturn delivers roughly 1.6 Mips / What, a Intel Strong arm 1100 at 133Mhz delivers 200 Mips / What This means that if the SATURN (or Yorke) was redesigned now, it would be 125 * faster for the same power usage (or 125 times less power hungry at the same speed).... The saturn uses roughly 20mA at 5V, this means 100mW, as a comparison, an Intel PXA250 at 300Mhz uses 300mW (and, as power consumption is factor of the square of the speed, this means that the same CPU should disipate the same power than the saturn at 173Mhz!)! Now, truth is, performance per mips is only an issue in some embedded systems, so it is difficult to find a low computing power / low power usage CPU, but have you look at embedded MIPS or embedded Arm7 platform? you will find that the Saturn is not that good! Conservatives estimates 3 years ago showed that the Saturn could be redesigned to run at 40Mhz with a lower power consuption... have ==== Well, I am normally on the side of the individual and not of the corporation, but on this one, I have to admit that you are bulying HP a litle more than it desearves... Also, please note that I am not releasing any informaiton here or telling what happen, just proposing alternative thinking Well, it made it, and pretty much as we wanted it to be (appart from the keys, I know!) which means that the money was there... As far as any HP48 expert can say, there is no design needed to create a HP48G+, it's exacly the same product than a HP48G except for the memory device which is 128K instead of 32K (well, technicaly, it's the same than a GX minus the port connector, and the bank switcher). As for the selling part, well, if it looks like you can make a buck or to at minimal cost, why not do it? it's called extending a product range.... A couple of possible answers: Because they needed some time to think about what they were going to do next, because they were sourcing the budget (these things takes time in a corporate environment), because they did not have the staff to do so, because they wanted the peoples to learn first how to deal with calculators by introducing a simpler product like the 48G+, because they were looking for partners, maybe, the 49 was already in the pipe and in design in parallel with the HP48G+, maybe because they had other product to introduce first that made more marketing sence, maybe they were trying to scope the work for the HP49, working on the schedule Well, ASIC design time is in years from starting the work to first prototypes. the 49 was introduced barely a year after the ACO was created, Even with an experienced team, it would not have been possible to redesign the Yorke in such a small timeframe. well, it could also be lake of time, lake of people all together, corporate heaviness, underscoping of tasks, lake of comunication between teams, bad (or changing) requierements. Also, remember that the 49 was the first product of a young division and team, a learning product... and they definitely made beginner mistakes... maybe because HP wanted to keep a competitive advantage by having calculator with more memory than competitors? having great product is not all, you also need to keep watching for competition It well, some 4 operation calculator actually DO have worth documentation than the 49 (amybe because of this Corean to Tawanees to English to French translation process :-) ==== How can you argue against the quality of a product because of its name? ( beta , whatever) That's classic judgement of a book by its cover. To decide which software to install, on all my systems from servers to calculators, I observe the actions of expert users and do my own evaluation. I don't blindly trust a company. Two days after buying my HP49, I installed 1.19.6. It was completely painless. Do you install Microsoft's latest OS the day of its gold release, because Microsoft says it's release quality? Do you apply exactly the patches it tells you, when it tells you? And if you do, is it because they will provide support and pay damages if it goes wrong? (Ha!) While corporate incompetence may have affected technical quality, I'm not going to pre-judge the technical quality *because of that incompetence*. As far as I'm concerned, the ideas and overall design of the HP calculator software are excellent (thank you to all teams involved, whether in Aus, Asia or USA). I switched from TI-89 to HP49, and found the former marginally faster for some operations. Certainly not enough of an improvement to influence which one I use. I agree that *no* calculator has a state of the art processor. For those moments when your calculator is a replacement for Mathematica/Mathcad/whatever, that's relevant. For now, when I need that power, on goes the laptop. An ARM-based calculator would be nice instead for on-board power, but not if I have to recharge at the day's end. I know ARM assembler, but I'm not sure if I want to learn another :-). Well, ok, let me tell you how I did it, since I'm in exactly that category. 1. I downloaded the user's guide and read it cover to cover. About half way, I changed to RPN and kept it there since. It's not that hard to understand a stack machine. 2. I downloaded the AUG and read most of it cover to cover, excluding the command reference, which I use as a reference :-). 3. I downloaded various other docs from hpcalc.org, e.g. a UserRPL tutorial, which I worked through during spare moments. I grabbed some other docs that I will/have read when I'm ready, such as a SysRPL manual. sexy apps to install, such as Emacs, which made my life easier. In fact, it's not dissimilar to the way I learn how to use FreeBSD or enthusiastic people in a community are infinitely better than one huge company which gives you reams of faceless documentation then leaves you out in the cold (Microsoft and TI are prime examples of this). I find it hard to grasp that anyone who needs the power of an HP49 can't find adequate information, assuming Internet access. The HP49 isn't a lazy person's calculator, nor a high school calculator (no matter what HP tried to make it). How about this on the first page of the manual: Most documentation is provided on line. See http://www.hpcalc.org/ for details. Hey, I'm not familiar with the Risch algorithm, and I expect that if I want to be, I'll look it up for myself. Again, this isn't a calculator for kids. I don't e.g... walk into a library, get out an advanced math text on analysis, and complain when it assumes I already know the epsilon-delta definition of continuity. I'd love to see the day when TI give exposure of their algorithms, for scrutiny or interest (as I believe will happen to the HP ROM within the year)... I agree that SBS is unclear about what algorithm it's using sometimes (I've hardly used it, a calculator is no substitute for thinking, just calculating)... ... but it's not the job of the calculator or its manual to explain the meaning of generic terms. That's like the manual explaining, multiplication of a number x by a natural number y is equivalent to adding x to itself y times . We're not trying to prove Turing equivalence. :-) I'd hope so, yes. These look like elementary row operations, original matrix on the left, identity on the right. I'm completely guessing that L is ligne is French for row , but Line would do. Well, I hope so. A calculator manual isn't designed to teach you maths. I'm not quite sure what you're expecting. I agree that the _________ output is weird, but are you expecting a detailed explanation of every message and every algorithm for which SBS is available? Are you looking at a number theory text in trying to understand these messages, or expecting to understand the algorithm from the calculator output alone? Surprised me to see that, yes. Do you mean special when compared to other HP calculators? If so, the large flash memory is nice, I'm told it's faster, and the software has more features. The keys suck, but then I have an IBM PC XT keyboard with nicer keys than most current keyboards -- it doesn't mean I'm using the XT. If only I could transplant. Maybe the 49 not worth an upgrade from a 48, but I never owned one so I didn't have to make that painful decision. I agree. In my case, I was not satisfied by TI, so went for HP. The TI software felt built for high school. Which is great if that's where you are. TI was going to make it hard as hell for me to develop for or tweak its machine, its community seemed to be 5% bright people and 95% WHERE CAN I GET GAMEZ FOR MY TI!?!, it informed my mind how I like CAS results presented, and [ insert usual religious pro-RPN rant here ]. And I don't think people are swayed easily into buying HP. TI are more widely available, more widely advertised, and your friend is more likely to have one. It a lot more (worthwhile) effort to choose HP than TI. You wouldn't put Red Hat 7.2 Workstation Install on a PDA, nor on a mission critical server (arguably, you wouldn't use Red Hat at all on a mission critical server, but a more conservative, stable doesn't make it bad. Usually to make up for an extremely low horsepower CPU, as with PalmOS, or HP49's OS (or lack of). I cannot think of a reason *not* to move into, say, ARM territory -- the advantages of a mature, widely-deployed OS far outweigh any magic you'll get from a little-used custom system. Agreed completely. Except to be fad-compliant there would have to be a dotNET calculator :-). *shudder* -- Tom ==== Do you realize the work involved to create the HP48G+ ? Almost zero. Just change the internal memory chip and redo the faceplate. Even today you still have people buying the HP48G+, it's cheap and has a lot of memory. It's a different product and that way HP increased its product range at a minimal cost and effort. So why not do it ? There was no waste here, just pure profit. The HP48G+ has been way more succesful in term of sales than the HP48GX in its entire sales history. ==== of Most act that way. You'd need very good inside knowledge to know if a given beta was stable or not. There is a reason it haven't got released, and that's because it haven't passed proper testing yet. That measn that it's entirely guesswork if you mean that v1.1.9.6 is stable. Does everybody do that? I do not hope that you are responsible for any mission critical equipment, gievn your lack of concern about using beta software. Were you able to determine in two days, that ROM v1.1.9.6 was stable? You're one in a million, man. There is simple not one single bug in the '49 software, when it comes to v1.1.9.6? I can see that you have looked thoroughly indeed. What about the flaw in list processing? Try doing { 15 90 50 } 5 /. That yields { 3. 18. 10. } in exact mode - not really that good, huh? And that one cannot be fixed, since it's embedded beyond repair into the system. You're not using many common math function then, I pressume? The '49 is unnecessarily ancient. That's really ok, by itself, but when someone suddenly clame that the '49 is the best thing since sliced bread, there's a HP zealot for ya! How about every other month? You're very skeptical about the ARM cores, if you think such a device necessarily needs to be recharged every day. Another what? Any device based on any current architecture, one should be able to program in a higher level language such as C or C++. So, can you tell me the how SOLVE works, and what its limitations are? What's the maximum order you can develop a series to? Why? Why doesn't PSI(1,n), where n is equal, get evaluated in exact mode? How come GAMMA(1/2) gets evaluated in exact mode, but GAMMA(1/4) doesn't? Why does 'LN(X)' 'X=2' SUBST demand RAD mode? And all that in the couple of days it took you to decide to use ROM v1.19.6? Bravo! Because you already code in SysRPL, or...? LOL - when have you last seen JYA or BP give insights to the '49? HP is just such a company. But nonetheless, that was what it was sold as. So, students should have realized that the '49 wasn't for them, although HP told them that it was? How about HP provided the information, instead of leaching of off a private website. With this community, I doubt HP would have sold even a small fraction of the '49s they did. Because it's that simple to understand, right? Get real. Does the box say; The HP49G can show you the steps of all calculations made, but it requires a broad knowledge of calculus and French ways of teaching. You need to know for example the Risch algorithm, any applicable heuristics and all other algorithms normally used . Who needs step-by-step capabilities, if they already know how to do it? But it is sold as one. But the Librarians wouldn't guide you to that book, given your current knowledge then. HP would. TI has disclosed many if not all of their algorithms used in the TI89/92 series. SBS is unclear.......well, the sole use of SBS is to shed some light on something that might already be unclear. SBS on the '49 does not do that. What's a generic term then? Why explain differentiation? Why explain differential equations? Why explain partial fraction decomposition? Why explain basis of a vector space? Why explain image of a linear application of a matrix? Why have HELP at all, and why even have a manual? With a decent naming convention of the commands, all should be clear? Are as many familiar with the Risch algorithm, as are familiar with multiplication? That's not a fair comparison. is And everyone buying a HP49G should be aware of this. If not, they sure can't look for help in the manual, hoping to learn it. They need a teacher. You have not seen older HP manuals I gather - they must have been very bad ones, as they try to explain entirely too much. Why not R for row? It once was, with HP. Is a calculator an aid to teach you math? If not, then you wouldn't really need one, as you're required to show your work step by step when delivering answers at an exam. Yes, or else SBS isn't worth much. Both, if possible. What do you expect SBS to show? Special in context with calculators (or small handheld devices really) in general. TI has had Flash memory for years. It's not new in a handheld device. Think about what had happened if the '49 didn't have Flash? Faster than what? A HP48G? The '49 is slower in 99% of all cases, really. there wouldn't really be a difference. I do not believe the features of the '49 are finished - there are still bugs and inconsistencies. They will newer get fixed. Have a look in the ROM, and you'll know why. Why not? Or comparison! If you're used to TI, fine, but you're missing big points. Because you'll have more problems using it? That doesn't seem sane. Missile Warner, Jammer and Chaff/Flare dispensers? I wouldn't, hence we don't use it for mission critical projects. it's good. 99% of all project managers and system administrators doesn't not easy to set up, but of course it does have its advantages. Not many kernels. implementatiotns? aren't actually free either, so the major advantage here disappears. Most other OS'es for ARM like cores you buy without royalties, but not many OS distributors allow that. think it is, and a good one many times. That's not the same as I can make better use of it than for example a specialized OS. That question is moot though, as we're coding our own OS. ==== I don't think anyone reading comp.sys.hp48 would doubt that 1.19.6 is more stable than 1.18. You don't need to be an expert, it's just whether you have more confidence in all the users in this forum (including the developpers) or in the people who decide to label a RO M. I generally tend to follow the developper advice when using their software. The kind of documentation you would require would cover 2 books of the size of the 48 AUG. I don't think it would have been worth the effort (and we would anyway not have time to do it). Does it mean we should not have programmed the feature? Should I have stopped all work on the 49 in 1999 just because HP would not release any stable ROM release? Usual features are documented either in HP documentation or in Renee's documentation (which was available in French from the beginning and was distributed by HP France in 1999) to the CAS source and you will be able to make your own CAS. I don't think you will ever be allowed to read TI source code. You don't need to know the Risch algorithm to understand SBS integration. You need to know usual methods. Risch is displayed to explain you that when the usual implemented methods fail, the calc will use this algorithm. I would be very interested to know where. The TI SDK does not provide much information about CAS algorithm. Because L is the usual letter in French and it can be understood as line in English. Last time I heard about, the Familiar and Intimate ARM-distribution were free (libre). Bernard Parisse P.S.: I hope you will change somehow your opinion when you will have advanced in your project. Remember that we had less than 1 year to make the 49 and we had to keep 48 compatibility. Is it better to do nothing just because you know it will not be perfect? ==== I don't think anyone reading comp.sys.hp48 would doubt that 1.19.6 is more stable than 1.18. You don't need to be an expert, it's just whether you have more confidence in all the users in this forum (including the developpers) or in the people who decide to label a RO M. I generally tend to follow the developper advice when using their software. The kind of documentation you would require would cover 2 books of the size of the 48 AUG. I don't think it would have been worth the effort (and we would anyway not have time to do it). Does it mean we should not have programmed the feature? Should I have stopped all work on the 49 in 1999 just because HP would not release any stable ROM release? Usual features are documented either in HP documentation or in Renee's documentation (which was available in French from the beginning and was distributed by HP France in 1999) to the CAS source and you will be able to make your own CAS. I don't think you will ever be allowed to read TI source code. You don't need to know the Risch algorithm to understand SBS integration. You need to know usual methods. Risch is displayed to explain you that when the usual implemented methods fail, the calc will use this algorithm. I would be very interested to know where. The TI SDK does not provide much information about CAS algorithm. Because L is the usual letter in French and it can be understood as line in English. Last time I heard about, the Familiar and Intimate ARM-distribution were free (libre). Bernard Parisse P.S.: I hope you will change somehow your opinion when you will have advanced in your project. Remember that we had less than 1 year to make the 49 and we had to keep 48 compatibility. Is it better to do nothing just because you know it will not be perfect? ==== I don't think anyone reading comp.sys.hp48 would doubt that 1.19.6 is more stable than 1.18. You don't need to be an expert, it's just whether you have more confidence in all the users in this forum (including the developpers) or in the people who decide to label a RO M. I generally tend to follow the developper advice when using their software. The kind of documentation you would require would cover 2 books of the size of the 48 AUG. I don't think it would have been worth the effort (and we would anyway not have time to do it). Does it mean we should not have programmed the feature? Should I have stopped all work on the 49 in 1999 just because HP would not release any stable ROM release? Usual features are documented either in HP documentation or in Renee's documentation (which was available in French from the beginning and was distributed by HP France in 1999) to the CAS source and you will be able to make your own CAS. I don't think you will ever be allowed to read TI source code. You don't need to know the Risch algorithm to understand SBS integration. You need to know usual methods. Risch is displayed to explain you that when the usual implemented methods fail, the calc will use this algorithm. I would be very interested to know where. The TI SDK does not provide much information about CAS algorithm. Because L is the usual letter in French and it can be understood as line in English. Last time I heard about, the Familiar and Intimate ARM-distribution were free (libre). Bernard Parisse P.S.: I hope you will change somehow your opinion when you will have advanced in your project. Remember that we had less than 1 year to make the 49 and we had to keep 48 compatibility. Is it better to do nothing just because you know it will not be perfect? ==== I don't think anyone reading comp.sys.hp48 would doubt that 1.19.6 is more stable than 1.18. You don't need to be an expert, it's just whether you have more confidence in all the users in this forum (including the developpers) or in the people who decide to label a RO M. I generally tend to follow the developper advice when using their software. The kind of documentation you would require would cover 2 books of the size of the 48 AUG. I don't think it would have been worth the effort (and we would anyway not have time to do it). Does it mean we should not have programmed the feature? Should I have stopped all work on the 49 in 1999 just because HP would not release any stable ROM release? Usual features are documented either in HP documentation or in Renee's documentation (which was available in French from the beginning and was distributed by HP France in 1999) to the CAS source and you will be able to make your own CAS. I don't think you will ever be allowed to read TI source code. You don't need to know the Risch algorithm to understand SBS integration. You need to know usual methods. Risch is displayed to explain you that when the usual implemented methods fail, the calc will use this algorithm. I would be very interested to know where. The TI SDK does not provide much information about CAS algorithm. Because L is the usual letter in French and it can be understood as line in English. Last time I heard about, the Familiar and Intimate ARM-distribution were free (libre). Bernard Parisse P.S.: I hope you will change somehow your opinion when you will have advanced in your project. Remember that we had less than 1 year to make the 49 and we had to keep 48 compatibility. Is it better to do nothing just because you know it will not be perfect? ==== I don't think anyone reading comp.sys.hp48 would doubt that 1.19.6 is more stable than 1.18. You don't need to be an expert, it's just whether you have more confidence in all the users in this forum (including the developpers) or in the people who decide to label a RO M. I generally tend to follow the developper advice when using their software. The kind of documentation you would require would cover 2 books of the size of the 48 AUG. I don't think it would have been worth the effort (and we would anyway not have time to do it). Does it mean we should not have programmed the feature? Should I have stopped all work on the 49 in 1999 just because HP would not release any stable ROM release? Usual features are documented either in HP documentation or in Renee's documentation (which was available in French from the beginning and was distributed by HP France in 1999) to the CAS source and you will be able to make your own CAS. I don't think you will ever be allowed to read TI source code. You don't need to know the Risch algorithm to understand SBS integration. You need to know usual methods. Risch is displayed to explain you that when the usual implemented methods fail, the calc will use this algorithm. I would be very interested to know where. The TI SDK does not provide much information about CAS algorithm. Because L is the usual letter in French and it can be understood as line in English. Last time I heard about, the Familiar and Intimate ARM-distribution were free (libre). Bernard Parisse P.S.: I hope you will change somehow your opinion when you will have advanced in your project. Remember that we had less than 1 year to make the 49 and we had to keep 48 compatibility. Is it better to do nothing just because you know it will not be perfect? ==== No, but most HP49G users aren't reading this group. Maybe 1% does, so it homepage. A typical user trust HP, and HP does not want users to use beta ROMs. You mean the company, right? HP does not support beta ROMs. If HP supported v1.19.6, it would be fine, but HP does not. Why wouldn't it be worth the effort? Aren't you interested in as many people liking your product? Do you remember how many of the complaints about the CAS stemmed from the fact that there was no documentation? Almost all of them I think. The importance of the manuals shouldn't be neglected. Whos idea was it to label the '49 as a student calc by the way? If you knew, I would have in your place. French documentation is worth exactly nothing! How many of the HP49G users know French? I would never be able to use such documentation, and I doubt many will. Why tone the '49 so much toward the French way? I have never understood that. The CAS, the docs - everything. Why not English, as everyone expects? I've known that for a very long time, but that doesn't matter. Are you going to finish the '49? When? By year 2005? Can't you see; you used 1 year to finish the hardware (with a couple of bugs), and it'll be at least 4 years before the ROM is decent. You might as well have used 3 years to make and good product - the saved time is your major excuse to have started the '49 project. You didn't save any time - surprised? It's not iportant. Why are you suddenly so focused on comparison with TI? You never have before, but are we down to that level now? Oh, why not simply write Risch algorithm used. instead of Risch alg. of tower, {'LN(X)' 'EXP(1/X)' 'X'} ? I do not understand the latter - do you know anyone who does, besides you? Usual methods? I don't think many recognises the SBS messages from school. I surely don't, anyway. Why try to explain the arguments you're using in that algorithm? That's no help at all. The essence of what I'm saying about SBS, is that it currently does only add to the confusion, it does not help the student understand how the answer can be derived by hand. Read the numerous FAQs - many algorithms are stated and explained there. One example could be http://education.ti.com/product/tech/92/faqs/faq20504.html Why stick to the French? It really sticks out. I guess French is very universal, or were you merely making a CAS *you* can use in class? Why so much weight on the French part - can't let it go, even though the task demands it? I'm sorry, but it's really weird. Familiar, what can I say. It's an unprofessional group of, as they put it, loosely knit people . There are still problems, even with Debian ARM programs. Why? Because they are not consistent. The Debian ARM distribution is not free either, but is necessary if you need decent drivers. Intimate - this is the way to go, if you want to base yourself on the Familiar development. It's good, it has thorough Debian ARM support, but it weighs in at 140MB for the base image. 140MB! How on earth should that fit in any current handheld? There are still unfixed known bugs, and not all are You have had 3 and soon 4 years in total. In that time, you could do practically everything, especially with that huge HP financial backing you had..... We have all learned from this I hope, but why fight it? Do you agree with some here that the '49 is God almighty impersonated? I think it lacks bigtime, and it didn't matter as long as development continued - it could get fixed over time. Now, it won't. LGPL? Hah! You know the ROM. You, Mika, JYA, CdB, Gerald and maybe a couple of others can edit the ROM. Nobody else will have a snowballs chance in hell. ==== I'm fascinated... Please forgive my ignorance but I'm not a 49G user: what's wrong with dividing {15,90,50} by 5 and getting {3,18,10}? This is exactly what you'd get on a 39G. ==== Check out that the numbers in the list after the division are always numeric type - not exact integers. You can better see the difference with multiplication: { 4 5 6 } 4 * -> { 16. 20. 24. } (numeric) 4 { 4 5 6 } * -> { 16 20 24 } (exact) Both should yield a exact result in exact mode, when all inputs are exact. ==== And you need a good inside knowledge to know whether an official release is stable. Who trusts the word of the average software company? I certainly don't. I guess 1.0.5 was more stable then, because it wasn't marked beta . Yes, I would hope so. Independent thought rather than relying on a company's advertising generally results in your selecting a better product. I was able to judge that, given people's comments, it was worthwhile trying it out. I could always go back, and hey, it was a calculator, who cares if I get a few hours of poor performance? It was a weekend anyway. If the move had been irreversible, I'd have taken longer. No, I'm mostly a FreeBSD guy and a Windows guy. Whatever gets the job done. Why would I make sure software is 100% bug free before using it? That would mean using only the most trivial apps, or just dumping computers entirely. I agree the 49 has some nasty bugs, but none that have stopped me using the machine. Ok the general TIvsHP battle isn't worth it.. Agreed. It just does the job. No, I'm not skeptical, I'm very impressed.. but it's possible to create a high power device, like a Compaq iPaq, which needs recharging every day, with an ARM core; or an ARM7100 core'd Psion Series 5 which swims on 30 continuous hours between recharges. All I'm saying is.. if a new device is released, I would like it to either balance nicely between consumption and horsepower, OR better to have a variable clock with a *significant* range. I wasn't being entirely serious, hence the :-). I like ARM assembler, that's all I was saying. Its barrel shifter and use of condition codes are things of beauty. Why are you throwing bug reports at me? If your point is that occasional bugs make it hard for the new user to learn, then yes, this is the case with all software. Fingers crossed, the source will at some point be out for community fixing. So I spent a weekend plus an evening learning how to use a calculator, and getting more docs to learn more. I guess I must be sad. Oh well. Because it had command completion, was a reason alone to get it. I'm talking about *everyone*, not just the official developers (and JYA seemed to give a lot more insight while working than the TI workers did). Random example... ticalc.org TIcalc has an IRC help channel on EFnet, #ticalc (or whatever it's called, can't remember now). It doesn't. You go in there, talk about TI, and are told YOU ARE NOT ELITE and kicked. Grow up people! No, students who weren't willing to put in extra effort should have realised that they shouldn't be buying a complex calculator *at all*. Or if they do, then they should ensure they buy from a company with a good returns policy. Agreed, HP should have supported the web site, through hosting at least, payment / special contacts / etc preferably. I'm not sure if they should have *taken over* this support role completely. Firstly, it's never good for a community to be totally at the mercy of a company. Secondly, lots of enthusiasts give better support (imho) than a few workers. On the broad knowledge of calculus , are you suggesting that someone with no knowledge of calculus whatsoever should understand a step by step explanation of a differentiation procedure? I agree, as in my helpful. I thought SBS was to indicate how to apply mostly-known methods to a particular question, if you're having trouble with choosing a particular step, or simply want to check your working. Yes. A stupid marketing mistake. But not a technical one. I would say any bright high school kid or (university) college student in any of the hard sciences/engrg, maths or computing should be able to grasp an HP. That's the level I was thinking of, compared to other makes which anyone from high school onwards should be able to grasp quite easily. I agree that pitching the HP on the same level as TI was silly. Part of the problem is a general desire of people to do as little thinking/understanding as possible. The HP marketers should have recognised this consumer trend, and that you can't sell anything unless it's spoon-fed. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Again, I see the SBS as a way of checking my method, or hinting me which step to use next on a method I already know. One that has exactly the same meaning in a wide community outside of the specific product. unary operator is certainly such a term. In a calculator manual, it's certainly unnecessary. The manual needs, at most, to bridge the gap between your existing knowledge of maths/science/eng and accessing the functionality as implemented on the equipment. If more information will be provided, I won't complain, but it's not necessary. I cannot emphasise it enough -- I do not think a calculator is a teaching tool. My point was.. look it up . Surely a student's job is to research and learn? I'm not campaigning against a huge, lucid manual. I love huge, lucid manuals. I'm just saying that your argument is pitched at a level that removes completely from a student the requirement to think. Maybe I'm just silly, and like investigating. R would be better. I was telling you my thought processes in working out what it meant. Ah, OK, I see we have different premises here.. I consider a calculator to be a grinding, hinting and a checking tool. You also consider it (with its manual) to be a teaching tool. In which case, many of your points are fair... Using a calculator in an exam is, imho, firstly about manipulating numbers, matrices or lists of data, doing boring arithmetic. It's could also be about checking that you've worked out your hard integral correctly, and even (with SBS) hinting the direction you should go to get it, assuming you already understand the general method. (of course, for my analysis/graph theory/number theory/logic etc. exams this year, I'm not even allowed a calculator; only the numerical methods exam allows one) I just can't begin to comprehend learning a method completely from the output of a calculator. I assume when you learn most algorithms you read and understand a proof of how they work. Do you expect the calculator to provide that too? But TI places such silly restrictions on your use of flash. For example -- I can't write and install flash software without *paying* TI for a key. And the more software I write, the more I have to pay. The last time I asked TI when they were going to release a freeware key: Real soon now! Has it happened yet? If it goes GPL, it'll be up to everyone, not just the company, to fix as much as possible. Or to re-use the ideas in a new, improved system. No complex software is ever finished . I said after, If only I could transplant . I meant that I agree that the keyboard of a 49 is poor, but unfortunately, I cannot use the keyboard of a previous HP. So, I'm not going to use a less powerful machine just to get a better keyboard. You'll have more problems *learning* to use an HP, yes. In terms of programming the thing to do what you want, I know which I prefer. critical is often used to mean business critical , and for that I'd If you float around the BSD community, everyone hears that it is baaaaaad :-). As IBM used to say, Think! Obviously, you don't convert your office ARM are fantastic. I've had an ARM box since 1989, when they were times :-). Seriously, have you tried running Unix variants on ARMs? I both on ARM6 (which I'm guessing is around the kind of power you'd throw in a long-life handheld) and I didn't notice a huge speed drop over a non-pre-emptive system. distribute a derivative and require payment for its source. Or am I misunderstanding? * * * calculator as a teaching aid, then many of your points are very fair. Enjoy, -- Tom ==== At first i want to apologize,because i think that i went a bit too far in my previous message. So the HP48G+ has been released just to do profits ? I thought that the A.C.O was created in 1997 ? Anyway if you can't redesign the yorke then why design the HP49 ? You could have just upgraded the HP48 with the new hardware memory management,Flash technology ,integration of HP48 best application and software optimisation.Considering the time you had to design the HP49,it would have been a wiser,more secure move.This calculator would have been a HP49 in the HP48 case without gizmo such as the algebraic mode and HP-Basic. OK but mistakes like that have strongly hurt your credibility because never before a HP calculator has been released with such problems(including hardware and software problems). Sorry to say that but the HP49 seemed like a very rushed product. And the youth of the A.C.O doesn't excuse all. The designers team of the TI92 calculators was also a young team but even if the first TI92 had hardware and software problems,the documentation and the marketing were excellent. ==== That's generally what companies do: Try to make profits. More generally, they try to create value for the shareholders that _own_ them and to whom they are _legally_ obligated. -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ==== he's talking about the average user. What's faceless documentation? How is TI [leaving] you out in the cold ?? But the HP49G *was* targeted to students! I'm somewhat familiar with the (original) Risch algorithm, but that's because I learnt it by myself. I cannot expect high-school students (or even 99.9% of college students) to be familiar with it. I'm not sure that would be very useful. I'd rather they document the algorithms they use in the Command Reference section in the Appendix (the way they are doing now) and put some more of the internal routines (e.g. polynomial gcd) in the jump table. Yes. If SBS is available at all, it should be detailed enough to be usable. And yet several professionals use it for advanced math ;-) :-) I do have RPN too, but on the TI-89/92+. -- Bhuvanesh ==== Well, we share many points of view, but I'm trying to look at the HP49G as what it was sold as - it was sold to students promising a TI89/92 basher. That's a failure. I like the '49, and I find it a very cool toy. I like investigations too. I have used many great hours hacking in this device and several HP calculators before that. I also own a TI89, but it's a workhorse currently, the '49 will always be the most fun of the two. The audience the '49 was sold to, will usually only trust the ROM the manufacturer backs. That is v1.18, which is pretty bad really. I use v1.19.6, and find it very good. HP dropped its promise (was it really ever one?) to ever get this calc working like old HP calcs, hence my remark Carly dropped the ball . Erh, yeah ;-) v1.05 suck bigtime, and was probably released in panic. You and I know that, but many of the real customers don't. I know, and that's what I generally do too. If we keep our eyes to the main group the '49 was sold to, they are now abandoned. Had it been a more important application, you wouldn't have dared to use a beta (I hope). If not for anything else, then because of the risk of loosing the ability to return to the manufacturer with any legal claims. What I mean is that the '49 do have some heavy bugs that could've been avoided. That work should've been started more than 2 years ago - now it's practically hopeless. You'll have both. These are not bug reports, but I find the points important to know. You can't find that information anywhere in the documentation, that was my point. If you don't miss it, great, but if you do (because you are used to HP thoroughnes) then too bad. LOL - have you seen the sources? Good luck, I'm telling you. Good luck. I like Emacs as well - its auto completion is superb. I just didn't think you'd need it unless you were coding SysRPL. Hmm, the initial target group is usually very subsceptible to commercials. They didn't have a chance in my opinion. HP used to be such a company. No, I'm just searching for a better structure in the SBS mode. A few additional words, and better layout of the information would help tremendeously. The information given, when you get down to it, is adequate. It's merely very hard to decipher. But a part of the general failure (who's General Failure?..). And they would, those who would have chosen a HP by themselves. Now HP pushed '49s on everybody - also those who should have sticked with a TI89. Of course, but not for a ten year old. In my circles, AN/ALQ149 is a generic term, but I wouldn't expect everyone to know. Unary operator is not that bad, but not that many high school kids realize that zero can be looked at as a rational fraction. I always found it nice, but I also started reading them long before I had the topics in school. I agree with you, but HP tried to enter that thoughtless market. They failed, in my opinion. JYA & BP exclaimed that the '49 was a teaching tool. We were all skeptical then, and more now. They were obviously wrong. No, but maybe examples in the manual would help. Yes. There are many other restriction too though. You'll just have to wait and see then. I doubt the '49 OS will be the next :-) Me too, but we're not the majority. I agree there. But some does - did anyone say HP here?.... thing I gained was half the performance. body of mine really, who is in charge of the OS) found too many anomalies if you will. Bugs, although they were quickly fixed, they did emerge. then new ones, then incompatibilities, then.... We were also sacrificing much space by maintaining a kernel like that in Flash. Now we have a 90% working kernel, an almost finished (will it ever?) TCP/IP stack, USB/Seriel protocols and so on. Development is pretty fast, when you have a EC++ compiler, but we of course have a long way yet to go. No, if I must say, we're using Intels PXA210/250 and successors. The sources are free, of course, but they are not that useful without support. We can of course compile them, but what happens when we discover a bug? We can't force anyone to fix it. That uncertainty is hard to swallow. Some projects are stable enough to handle such risks - ours aren't now. It may be at a later stage. ==== And TI sends more information about internal algorithms if you ask for it. For example, I got quite a bit of extra information about factor() and isprime(), and it will be publicly available, either from Appendix A of the guidebook (which already gives information about algorithms for many functions) or in Doug's tip-list. -- Bhuvanesh ==== thanks for the link, I didn't know that (I must confess I do not care much now about non-free software). But it is anyway not useful to write C code, or are there any info on the internal C functions of the TI-AMS? ==== I thought that you would use a C.P.U which can use a F.P.U unless the Intel Xscale will support F.P.U ? ==== I don't control what HP does. I could only give them advices. That's an interesting point of view. Following it I should never have fixed bugs for the same reasons. Because sorry we are not fluent in English like you, hence the CAS doc was written by Renee in French. I'm not responsible for HP decision not to translate it in English. Why should the root langage always be English? Don't you think it is as easy to translate from French than from English? Anyway, the CAS doc was translated in English by Ivan hence it is available in English. I don't work for HP. The work I made after the release of the 49 was on my free time. I have fixed all CAS-related bugs I could. I don't have time to enhance the 49 CAS, but everyone interested will have You raised the subject by comparing internals of both calcs. Read for example Davenport-Siret-Tournier. Which shows that the way we teach in France is somewhat different from elsewhere. French is not as universal as English, but it is also an universal language as are e.g. Chinese, Spanish and many other languages. It would be a big loss if everything would be replaced by one language. And there is no reason that English will remain dominant in the future. It seems we are engaged in an endless debate because I don't believe the world should be built following the model of the Cathedral but instead of the Bazaar. You can't speak from this subject since you certainly do not have any information. Why? When the CAS will be released under the LGPL, people will have much more info and tools than we had when we started coding for the 48 and they will be able to *modify* their OS in flash. And there are certainly good coders in the young generation. Maybe they will prefer coding other projects, maybe not, who knows? ==== As you now know, the XScale core has a DSP internally. It has advantages and drawbacks compared to a dedicated FPU, but it'll suffice. The loss is not that great. ==== But you argued that the beta ROM issue was not a problem, and I argue it is. You say that it is not, since everyone reading here will know to use v1.19.6. Then I say that almost none of the users are reading c.s.h. Do you admit that the beta ROM is indeed an issue now? If you *knew* HP would act like they did, would you seriously use all your good free time on fixing bugs in the '49? I understand that you'd under all circumstances work on Giac, but if you kept the two seperate? Would you use your spare time, with the knowledge you have now? I wouldn't. I'm not accusing you for not writing it in English, I'm just saying that having it in French is not the big advantage you say it is. HPs decission not to release more and better documentation is the big bad wolf here - I never said it was you. Because so many uses it? Not for me, and not for the biggest part of users. Yes, and HP should have done that a long time ago. I think that you have done a brilliant job, given the circumstances - I was merely arguing that the time it took to get this far with the whole project, is not nay shorter than if the ACO had redesigned the hardware. Do you mean hardware? I don't recall bringing that up. using SBS in the '49? Of course. So the SBS is largely only practical for French students. Are you expecting English to vanish in the next 20 or 30 years - the life expectancy of the '49? That seems pretty thin in my eyes. Would you find a calc using Chinese language a fitting product for the target group of the '49? There is one difference - I used facts, not opinions. you I'm only using the information JYA brought forward. If you say I'm using false information, look towards JYA, not me. I think it is time for a decission - did you or did you not have good financial backing from HP? Ok - we'll see when the sources are released. Are the source files improved over the last year or so? I mean, if they are as messy and badly commented as a year ago, they are impossibly hard to work with. You can even see how many problems the ACO have fixing bugs, and they made it. How many new bugs will be introduced when a novice touches the source? Time will tell. Remember that when people coded for the '48 series, there were big motivations; A truly superior product and an admirable company. Both are gone now. ==== Well, as a matter of fact, France is a bigger market than the US regarding CAS enabled calculator. That's also the reason why the TI92 was first released in France almost 1 year before any other country. There have never been a big call for CAS calculator in the US and that's the reason why the HP40 hasn't been released in this country. As a matter of fact, most teachers did NOT want HP to sell these calculators in the US. So French is as good as English on this matter. So what about mandarin ? What are you trying to suggest here ? That I gave you insight on Bernard's licensing contract ? I dare you! improved bugs I don't recall you being part of the source code distribution list.... So I wonder from which source code you're talking about. In which way? 100% of the HP48G software is in the HP49. So function-wise they are similar. Everything you are doing on the HP48 will work the same way on the HP49 now (if correct flags have been set-up) It does less. ==== It would be an issue for people who have more confidence in companies than individuals. But I believe that in fact the main issue is not choosing the ROM but doing the upgrade. But for a corporation it should be as easy. And in fact that's exactly what was done for the HP40 CAS documentation. No, you were speaking on algorithms details. No, but I hope that a curious user would try to find info on the algorithm. I would say that for the euclidean division of integers, not for the rest. I was speaking in general. I can't answer to these type of questions. Some parts are well commented, some not (and some French comments remain in the source). Exactly as for any large project. We'll see. I don't think we will have next year affordable calc using new generation processors. Hence good coders with few money might find interesting to code new CAS commands and integrate them in the 49 ROM. And programming the 49 will remain an excellent way to learn programming. ==== Ok. Of course not! I'm simply stating what you have said yourself, and I'm being told that I do not know what I'm talking about. Then, is that because you didn't tell the truth? I don't know, and I don't care, really. Who knows the truth anyway? And that means that I have not seen any of the source files? LOL. Are you calling me a liar? Even though Cyrille didn't want to touch on the subject of the '49 in Cupertino, do you believe that there were noone there interested in the '49? I saw some of the sources in California, and I have been sent snippets of it now and again. I have seen the actual files, and I have quotes from numerous people, official as well as unofficial, how they are to work with. I know Werner couldn't even compile the ones you sent him. If you look in your own sent items folder from Australia, I believe you'll find several quotes to me about the files. I have, as many others here, browsed through much of the ROM, so I have also got a very good idea about the general structure of it. I have used a great deal of the internal entry points (most CAS) from the get go, and I have personally contributed with a very large number of bug reports. Most of this is not publicly known, but *you* know it. Are you telling me that it is easy to fix the ROM? When you get to SysRPL/ML levels, almost nothing is the same. If you stay with UserRPL, of course most is the same, but that's not what we're talking about, when talking about changing the ROM, right? Not when it comes to the 1 MB ROM. great respect for you, but I think I'm entitled to my own opinion about how easy or hard I think it'll be to fix the ROM by this community. I don't care if it was the fault of HP or of the ACO, but I believe it's correct that the documentation was not good at release. I believe that neither of the release ROMs are good - v1.18 is not stable either. It has numerous flaws, many may not be obvious to all users, but some are definetely evident in everyday use. I do believe that not having a stable release ROM is a problem, as I do not think that as much as 10% of the users are confident in loading a beta ROM. These are opinions, most backed by solid arguments - they are not personal attacks on either of you. ==== Yes, I agree on most of the points you just gave. Basically, neither of us believed what HP claimed about their product, which is a fair product, but not for the reasons HP claims. A few remaining thoughts below. I think the NO WARRANTY clause on almost every piece of software means that, like it or not, in most countries there is no chance whatsoever of making legal claims in the event of damages, whatever the release status. Again, I'd rather rely on the word of other experts, and my own judgement. I admit, I have read through some of a HP48 manual, and it's a lot better (when I asked HP, they actually told me to get an HP48 manual for the 49). I've worked with horrible code, and with beautiful code. If it is accompanied by documentation with info on algorithms etc, it could prove very interesting, even if just as a basis for further projects, and/or just to fix the odd minor issue. The ideas and techniques are more important than the particular implementation. There were commercials for the HP49? :-) In England I could only find that sold HP49s (ignoring HP/TI themselves). *Neither* company seems to have ever made much effort in recent years to push its high end calculators here. The less powerful TIs seem to be available in the high street, though. As above, it's more likely people will take ideas from it for new projects. Which is good. There's not much use for the code itself in a non-portable language. I think anomalies is a good way of describing Unix issues. Nothing quite fits together perfectly. I'd probably argue that the effort to make it do so is less than simply re-writing *and maintaining* an OS from scratch -- such projects as BeOS never obtained sufficient apps software, device drivers, credibility (telnet to a root shell -- oops!), etc. your fixes as and when you need 'em. And you can be pretty sure that major bugs will be fixed pretty quickly anyway by the standard contributors. Meanwhile, you usually need HUGE $ to get big OS manufacturers to fix their software :-). Good luck with your project, -- Tom <3C886BCD.50F44703@fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <8ici8.1166$Z25.87615@news000.worldonline.dk> <616e1c01.0203121259.5b080159@posting.google.com> <3C8EFE31.C8B04638@fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> ==== What fraction of 49G purchasers have ever read comp.sys.hp48? The User's Guide that came with my calculator mentions www.hp.com/calculators/hp49/, which, unless I'm mistaken, did in the past offer an unsupported beta ROM. I don't think you can find a beta ROM on the hp site now. I don't know about you, but I generally avoid using software labeled beta unless I have a pressing need for the new features and find the risk worthwhile, or I just want to play around with it. My first assumption is that the developers don't have confidence that the product is fit for release if they still have a beta label on it. Personally, I still don't think that the 49G is suitable for real work yet. I think that most calculator purchasers expect to be able to simply put the batteries in and have the calculator work without installing any system updates. Does every calculator purchaser have access to a PC that he can connect to his calculator for ROM updates? And does he want to go to the trouble of calling HP for a ROM upgrade kit? Does he realize that that's an option or does he think that he has to shell out more money for a connectivity kit before he can update the ROM? I wonder how many have upgraded their 49G at all. Wouldn't most purchasers expect that the developer was HP? Actually, the one for the 48G series is called a Reference Manual not a Guide . But so what if it would take 2 books that size? I'd like to have that kind of documentation available from HP. I wouldn't expect the developers to write the user documentation; actually they may well have a difficult time judging the expertise of the users, and I wouldn't demand that they be highly skilled at writing. I would expect the developers to write a rough draft , turn it over to professional writers, be available to answer questions, and check the professionally written copy for errors (not spelling errors and such, but errors about how to use the calculator). And I think that the full Advanced User's Guide should've been available in printed form, at least as an optional additional purchase for the sake of those who don't have a PC and an internet connection. For that matter, I don't want to have to go to a PC every time I want information about the calculator, so I printed out a copy to put in a 3-ring binder. I would've been willing to pay a reasonable amount to save the time and cost of doing my own printing. I'm not saying that the programmers were personally at fault here, but rather that HP (like many other companies) was very much at fault. I expected better from HP. If they want to be just a printer and PC clone company, they may as well have not even bothered with the 49G. Well, how much good is it to have a feature that the users don't know how to use? Perhaps the programmer gets a sense of accomplishment, but for the user, obscure undocumented features may very well do more harm than good, and be perceived as bugs rather than features . In French!? Well, no doubt French is a fine language for those who understand it, but I would expect the documentation to match whichever language the package is printed in. Couldn't HP hire translators? I personally don't give a rat's ass about TI's source code or about HP's practices being better than or at least no worse than TI's. I bought an HP, not a TI. I don't think that anyone realistically expects such a complex device to be perfect. But have you ever heard such sayings as Anything worth doing is worth doing well. and Don't bite off more than you can chew. ? -- Sincerely, James ==== I begin to think that this thread should stop, here is why: I believe people have some legitimate reasons to ask for more documentation, more support from HP and so on. Yes, it would have been better if the French doc from Renee had been translated. I agree HP should relabel 1.19-6 (or even better the unpublished 1.19-7) as 1.20. Hp could even provide an upgrade program in some reseller stores so that novice users can get a stable ROM. But this is the wrong place to say these things. It's easy to complain here, but I don't believe HP cares a lot about this newsgroup, and we feel bad when we read comments about the buggy ROM or lack or documentation and so on because we fixed bugs or we provided documentation. Unfortunately we are not in a situation to make it official . Just imagine you would be in our situation, how would you react reading these type of posts? The result of complains here is probably the exact opposite of what people would like to have: e.g. I could decide to ignore comp.sys.hp48 in the future, or even I could decide that releasing the CAS under the LGPL is not worth the effort... Therefore I suggest that you find a more productive way to explaining these issues to HP could have more impact. ==== This is not poetry: I only want to thank you two, your work for developing these programs years ago: they make my diary work more comfortable. (By the way: Look my surname. I'm spanish, but the father of my granfather was a french engineer) Parisse Bernard escribi 227 en el mensaje ==== My participation in this thread has been to defend the quality of the ROM, and to highlight that the problems described are with HP marketing, and not the result of your excellent efforts. Do not be disheartened when people criticise. This means people feel passionately about your project. Plus, many have come to your defence, in this and other threads. I don't often speak up, but I felt you deserved this defence. I look forward to the release of the ROMs under (L)GPL, so I can investigate them for my own interest, and contribute if I have time. -- Tom ==== R Lion escribi 227 en el mensaje years ...and just in case: what I say above, is against NOBODY. This group works ==== That's what I've been saying all the time. That too. That would be great. Why? I wasn't complaining. This thread started as a discussion about how hard or easy it would be for this group to continue the work of You and the ACO. I provided my opinion about the state of the '49 - the need for a stable release ROM, the lack of English documentation and so on. If I must be so free, it is You and JYA who have continued on about there was nothing wrong. You have been contributing very much to the length of this thread. If this last post of yours is a benchmark of your opinion, we share the same. I never said this was your fault. I never blaimed the ACO for this situation we're in now. I have always stated that I believe it is HPs bad, so there was never any accusation against any of you. The reason I will not continue any work on the '49, is because I won't help HP sell even a pencil from now on. They are acting so bad, that I will not ever again be on their side. They are not on mine. My statements here were never to HP. Is that why you're defending HP then? You say: The beta label on the stable ROMs is not a problem , The documentation is there, but it is in French - that is not a problem though . I understand you feel hurt, but it's HP you should look towards, not us. We're not complaining about your effort - on the contrary, I believe most here think of you as heroes. You were once the small men, part of a group that made software for the HP48G series. Now you have made it with the big company, HP, but they unfortunately dropped the ball and stabbed you in the back. That's why I said that I wouldn't have continued my work if I'd found out what HPs plans were. It's a big insult towards you, when HP sacks the ACO, and disses the HP49G the way they have. You must feel 100-fold the disappointment I do, so you must be pretty pissed. These are not complaints. This thread really started when George Tsiros called Micah a troll, because he thought it was futile to rewrite the ROM. I gave my opinion of the current state of the '49, and you and JYA did nothing but defend the '49 and its development. I understand you feel hurt, but nobody said it was your fault - everyone knows it is the fault of HP. If you defend their decissions, it could look like you thought that HP handled this correctly. I'm glad you finally don't. <3C886BCD.50F44703@fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <8ici8.1166$Z25.87615@news000.worldonline.dk> <616e1c01.0203121259.5b080159@posting.google.com> <3C8EFE31.C8B04638@fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3C909958.697A4118@fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> ==== Actually, I get the impression that HP doesn't care a lot about calculators or calculators purchasers anymore. Ok, I came down on you harder than I should have. I apologize for that; it's just that you touched on some of my pet peeves about the 49G, and I got the impression that you were saying that they really weren't significant problems. I do think that we can all at least agree that the 49G is not as good as it should've been. And yes, new ROMs were released, with substantial improvements and bug fixes, apparently from you guys continuing development on your own time, after, as far as I can tell, HP stopped supporting continued development. And you've made a good deal of unofficial documentation available if one knows where to search, even if it's not in professionally written, printed and bound manuals. Most people would've dropped the effort when the company stopped supporting it, but you guys went beyond what was required by HP. And even now you still show an interest in this newsgroup and the 49G. You have my sincere thanks for all of that. I expect that the four of you feel even worse about the way things have turned out than the rest of us do. I don't place the blame on the developers personally. I know all too well how badly corporate management can damage or destroy a promising project with changing requirements, hurry up , that's good enough, we're not building a space shuttle you know , basically drop whatever you're working on and do this instead , and generally demanding results that make them look good right now; why should they care about the future of the group? They plan to have moved on to better things by then. And so on. And marketing really blew it; I might never have realized that the 49G even existed if I hadn't happen to notice the HP logo on a weird looking calculator behind a dusty 48GX at Office Depot. That's mostly speculation of course; I have no way of knowing for sure just what went wrong, but I expect that the blame really belongs rather higher up the corporate ladder (and yes, I realize that you personally weren't even on that ladder at all). I sincerely hope that some form of development can be picked up sometime in the future. I don't know that there's any great need for new features, (not all will agree with that, I know) but certainly I'd like to see the known problems fixed to whatever extent is feasible. And I hope that the documentation becomes clearly open source as well. the calculator that HP should've made. HP seems to have dropped development yet again, and who knows whether they'll ever even try to pick up the pieces again. I suppose miracles might happen. Whom can we write to who might pay attention to what we say and might be in a position to change things? -- James ==== The fasterst method is 3-keys sequence: [MODE] [+/-] [ENTER] Piotr Kowalewski. ==== The fastest and easiest way to switch between RPN and ALG modes remains and old program of mine, written in 2000, RPN<=>ALG (a single key press will do the job, whatever you are doing). You can find it on http://www.netplage.com/hpmagnet/ Take a look -- Magnet ==== could anyone send me the SysRPL manual for HP48 (preferably in PDF). The documentation page at HPCalc is broken as well as other links I have found in Google. Honza -- Honza Hole 213ek, FI & P [CapitalThorn]F MU, Brno, Czech republic xholecek@informatics.muni.cz http://www.fi.muni.cz/~xholecek ==== Which is the best text editor for the 49G. I'm looking for one that hopefully has search functions, maybe hyperlinks or something similar. ==== For programming you should have Emacs, I guess it has enough functionality for text too. No hyperlinks though, it does have marks, regexps and much more -- This message was written with 100% recycled electrons Pivo ==== Can anyone explain these UserRPL programs to me??? I coudn't understand their results very well. Im trying to learn it from the Programming in UserRPL by Eduardo M. Kalinowski. They look simple but I coudn't get them... Thanx Programs: (a) << << << 1 2 + >> >> EVAL >> (b) << << << 1 2 + >> EVAL >> >> (C) << << << 1 2 + >> EVAL >> EVAL >> (d) << << << 1 2 + >> >> EVAL EVAL >> (e) << << 1 << 2 + >> >> EVAL >> (f) << << 1 << 2 + >> EVAL >> EVAL >> Results: (a) << 1 2 + >> (b) << << 1 2 + >> EVAL >> (c) 3 (d) 3 (e) 1 and << 2+ >> (f) 3 ==== Basically, EVAL will suppress one level of program quotes , and the result of the evaluation will be the same as the result of typing what remains on the command line. EVALuating this program leaves << << 1 2 + >> >> EVAL which in turn yields << 1 2 + >>, which isn't evaluated any further. Same reasoning for the other sample programs. You can convince yourself that this is a consistent behavior by typing 1 2 + on the command line, and then << 1 2 + >>, and then << 1 2 + >> EVAL, and by comparing the results. I hope this explanation helps. -- David Haguenauer ==== Perrone ==== Is there a program that can help with volume integration with the Disc/Washer or Shell method? ==== I have the same question. What program can be used for this, or maybe there is another way to do all this(on calculator) without additional programms? ==== One source of no cost downloadable HP calculator (mainly for HP 48 series) programs is www.hpcalc.org. A source of plug in Math, Statistics, Calculus, and more cards for the HP 48 series (with emphasis on the HP 48GX) is Calcpro website www.calcpro.com. I have purchased several times from them and have had good dealings with its manager, Paul Nelson. Good luck! <3C8A218D.AF387C59@earthlink.net> ==== Believe *me*, I'd prefer to be able to use AC or either polarity DC. My reason is that I'd like the calculator to have the ability to be powered from a variety of sources. Internal batteries, AC transformer, external battery pack, adapter to automotive battery, solar cells, hand-cranked generator, whatever. And I'd like it to work if someone hooks up the power reversed. I'm not certain that the 48/49 calculators can use 5V, but certainly a 4.5VDC adapter connected to the battery terminals is an option right now, as long as you get the polarity right. Well, I wasn't imagining connecting it directly to line (mains) power. I mean AC stepped down through an external transformer so that the peak voltage is within an acceptable range for the calculator's external power input circuits. Yes, what I have in mind is a full-wave bridge rectifier in the external power input circuit. Maybe a filter. As I understand it, the 48/49 calculators already have voltage boost circuits to get from battery voltage up to the voltages that the calculator needs internally. My guess is some sort of switching power supply. I expect that the already built-in voltage regulation is sufficient. Note that as they are, these calculators work fine from about 3V (batteries almost too low) up to about 4.8V (fresh batteries). That's a wide enough range for me. Of course, the user would be responsible for respecting the power requirements; I suppose that a Zener diode shunting a fused external power input could be added for some protection against the user connecting too high of a voltage. A full-wave bridge rectifier makes it polarity insensitive as well as able to handle AC. Cheap and simple; four diodes, available in a single package with four leads. It's amazing how much circuitry they can fit in so little space these days.... It would indeed generate some heat, but considering the low current that these calculators draw, I rather doubt that high temperature would be a problem. What might be significant is that the heat represents a power loss, which, depending on the external power source, might be a real problem. Even more of a problem is my wish to be able to connect/disconnect without turning the calculator off and keep running from the internal batteries if the external power should fail. My idea is to put a diode in series with the internal batteries, which would also protect against damage if someone puts the batteries in backwards. The trouble is that this incurs a voltage drop and therefore a power loss from the internal batteries. I don't like the idea of wasting battery life on this. And if a redesigned calculator should have a lower battery voltage (for example, two instead of three AAA cells), the problem would be even more significant. Actually, I'm happy with the form factor of the 48/49 calculators. To be sure, smaller would be nicer, but we still need room for the keyboard and display. I suppose that maybe an inch (2.5cm for the Europeans) could be taken off the 48 series size if we keep the same display size. I don't think that the circuitry I have in mind for the external power capabilities would take a lot of space or cost too terribly much: A bridge rectifier, a diode, a power jack, maybe a capacitor and inductor or resistor for a filter, and maybe a Zener diode and fuse to make it more fool-proof. This isn't bleeding-edge design; I've worked with similar circuits using vacuum tube diodes and gas-filled diodes in place of solid-state devices. Anyone with the competence to design calculator hardware should consider it child's play with solid-state devices. Fixed polarity DC, filtered and regulated as needed, and with a switch in the power jack to disconnect the batteries when it's plugged in, would certainly be acceptable. Maybe keep the fuse and Zener shunt, and maybe add a series diode before the shunt, for some protection against incorrect power sources. It's a matter of trading off flexibility and convenience against slightly lower cost and perhaps significant power savings. I would consider either design choice to be reasonable. But I definitely would like some sort of external power jack. Ok, you don't use the IR port, but many of us do, and I expect that many more would use it if it were IrDA compliant. Make a model without IR for those who don't want it and to satisfy schools that worry that students might use it to cheat, but also make a model with IR or make an optional IR accessory for those of us who do want it. And other non-USB devices. Actually, with Kermit's server capabilities and a PC, I suppose that the limitations are how much programming you're willing to do and how much memory you have available. The same can be said for the serial I/O commands (SRECV, XMIT, etc.). But if it can do it easier, that's even better. Speaking of connecting to a PC, how often do you plan to connect and disconnect the calculator? How long before your wired connectors stop working reliably? That might be a very good reason for wanting improved IR capabilities. -- James 14:07:36 -0600) ==== The HP Spice series apparently used nothing but a diode and their internal rechargeable batteries to filter AC from their wall-warts; the result must have saved some manufacturing cost, with a trade-off that any calc whose batteries were either not in place or dead would be instantly fried when plugged into AC, as was the HP38C I found in my office here, the first time I plugged it in (I should have known better, but I had forgotten about this hazard). This series' matching wall-warts with a B suffix also added something (a capacitor?) to reduce voltage spikes, so that they wouldn't reset the continuous memory models every time the AC adaptor was plugged in or removed from the AC while still plugged in at the calc end. That whole series had other aspects of cheap physical engineering, such as extremely short-lived keyboards and an original assembly method which pressed the parts together, instead of soldering: http://www.hpmuseum.org/tech30.htm Making battery-only calcs then made the whole issue moot, however; if you want AC power now, go buy your own battery charger :) [r->] [OFF] ==== Which were soon corrected, as my later Spices can happily testify. It's sad that this great family seems to be remembered just for this nasty bug and for certain problems with their battery contacts (which don't prevent them from working at all). That series introduced many cool features. In no particular order: * A really cheap (affordable) HP calculator (HP-31E, $60) * The first (ever?) programmable financial calculator, HP-38E, with almost all of the functions included in the successful HP-12C. * Functions SOLVE and INTEGRATE on the HP-34C, not present even on the HP-41C. * Continuous memory for all programmable models. * A great collection of application & support books. * Self tests. * The so celebrated HP-41 case (package) is clearly based on the Spice one. There have been worse bugs on other calcs (e.g. the gummy wheel in the card readers of **ALL** HP-67 and other machines) which have not damaged their images so deeply. Just a thought from a concerned collector. ;-) Bye. HPCC member #1046 - ==== A dream calculator would have: -A very fast low power consumption C.P.U with a built-in F.P.U -A 320*240 grayscale screen -A keyboard with quality keys(HP48) and layout which enables to use arrows keys and F-keys in alpha mode -A 32 bits version of the HP49 software with some improvements and new features -Built-in SDK for system RPL,C and C++ -An excellent documentation ==== There is no *need* for it. There's a reason why the 48's are the way they are: Expandable Calculator featured on the Hewlett-Packard Journal, June 1991, Page 26: A printed display window was thrown out in favor of a special hard polarizer optically bonded to the top surface of the LCD. This reduced cost, eliminated the window, which is easily scratched, and resolved a display. The biggest benefit of the windowless design is the 67% reduction in glare. Greetings. Steve Sousa ==== Agreed Why C++? It seems big and bulky, particularly considering that the SDK would have to include a compiler on the calculator to matter. I'd also make the same argument regarding C, now that I think about it. If a next generation calculator evolved beyond RPL, I'd like to see Lisp used, complete with macros, a compiler, and all of the unusual syntax. Ideally, the bulk of the ROM would be implemented in a similar manner as the existing ROM: all in the same language, with lower and lower level primitive constructs. The Lisp machines provide something of a precedent that that kind of thing is possible. This would provide a capable way of getting most of the performance of C, most of the OOP style benefits of C++, while keeping the spirit of compatability mode, hopefully) could be implemented with a relatively straightforward translation layer into the underlying Lisp. -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ==== You should check the Compaq Itsy, which is a project (I think they used it for the Ipaq), which has a touchscreen and a position sensitive sensor. With the StrongArm processor it should have the punch to keep most users happy. It could be a nice starting point for a dream calc. Other wishes I would have regarding a dream calc would be: 1. A touchscreen with also keyboard shortcuts, we don't want to use a stylus for everything... 2. A higher resolution screen, which should also be wider and the OS should support splitting of screens (easy for review of graphs or debugging purposes). 3. A usb and IrDA connector for fast transfer from PC to calc and vice versa. 4. Besides having GROB's it should be nice to have a way to export GIF's as well 5. Some kind of expansion to use a separate, though special keyboard, for programming (I liked the 28s layout, which made programming a lot easier) 6. Not the flashy metallic case of the 49, but the good old style of older HP calcs. 7. FPU is nice, but I doubt you can find a low power version and a fast strongarm processor should suffice. I'd rather have one of those fancy NVidia/Nokia 3d accelerator chips for 3d ;-) 8. Built-in development tools and a saturn emulator, which makes it backwards compatible with the 49/48 9. No Algebraic input, only RPN 10. No color screen, but grayscale would be really nice... 11. A combined RS232/HP-IB should be nice and makes it possible to connect the machine to measurement equipment. 12. A realtime/multitasking OS which makes it possible to do a long calculation as well as using it for normal calculations simultaneously. 13. 16 or 32 megabytes of RAM, with the possibility of expansion using Type II Flashcards (Microdrives!) or PCMCIA cards (Networking and Modems as well) 14. The proper english names for mathematical functions 15. It would be nice to have the possibility to export calculation logs as Word/Latex/HTML files, so I am able to do calculations on the spot and use them in later reports. It may sound a lot like your average PDA, however, the picture I have in mind really differs from such machines, especially the keyboard layout. It's not a mainstream calculator, but who cares? People who bought HP calculators in the first place are not looking for your average calc. I think the HP calcs are really nice machines, and I also like my 49. However, my dreamcalc would differ most from the 49, and lean more towards the feel of quality more apparent in older HP calcs. I hope this could help you and let me know with what you come up to! Greetings, Eelco ==== People in this thread are not talking about a dream calculator. They're talking about a palmtop PC. If you want a very programmable machine with advanced symbolic math in the palm of your hand, then why not just wait until Mathematica can run on a palmtop. (Can it already?) Calculators are for calculating. The programming features should be designed to assist calculating. As I see it, there are two reasons for a person to need to do advanced calculations: either they are involved in science and engineering, or they are a student. Now, for a student, a CAS would be nice, but is it really at all useful for an engineer? Engineers need numerical answers. If they need a CAS, then they're probably near a computer that can run Mathematica or Maple. What I'm saying here, is that my dream calculator is sturdy, small, fast, programmable in a way like UserRPL, and loaded with every possible numeric manipulation and function that anyone could possibly need. The HP48 does all of this, and it has everything I need. It is *almost* my dream calculator. What could make it better? I want an HP48GX with a sturdier case (like the HP48S case, which is heavier), but I'd also like the case to be slimmer and smaller. I'd like a higher resolution screen so that I can have either a smoother or a smaller font. I want a faster processor. I want hardware debouncing of the keys. I want a USB port in addition to a serial one. In other words, I want a calculator designed for an engineer. I don't want fun features that let me write games and over-advanced software. I dont want educational features that let me cheat on examinations and homework. I want a pracical tool that is sturdy and light and gets the job done. -Joshua Belsky : What would you expect from a calculator that can be implemented today? : (please be serious, I know that HP48 users have over-average imagination : ;-) : I am thinking of a small design based on MIPS series processor from IDT. : It might be nice. But a mono screen, I think. Not too much processing : power, but better than a '49 anyway. Keyboard like the '48, can't think of : anything better. Most probably RPN. : Please re: to sskowron@et.put.poznan.pl, : Stanislaw Skowronek : ----<>---- : United States Law prohibits disposition of these (commodities) (technical : data) to the Soviet Bloc, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Libya, Laos, The : Peoples Republic of China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia or Cuba unless : otherwise authorized by the United States. (on an invoice from 2002) : ----<>---- ==== Wow! I wonder how the juvenile who designed the HP49 case and display trapped between the window and display, not easily scratched, and reduction in cost! Obviously the designer was not born before the worse every time I look at my scratched cover display (if I can see Grrrrrr!!! Santos Lucero ==== I feel the same way Joshua does. But it seems that most of the people here want a toy and not a tool. Tools can be fun to use, but you don't use a 20lb sledge when all you need is a tack hammer. of (technical unless ==== Juvenile? Are you sure? Perhaps s/he had a lot of experience ... ... at Casio! Perhaps it was not missed at all, perhaps someone thought: Hey, I can really improve that , like the guy who decided to make some changes to the serial port: Hey, I can make HP one million dollars richer by removing that transistor. I wonder who was the smart guy that put it there! That's HP Way: Lasting values. the HP49G. Can you imagine? Someone justifying its great slide cover; and why, after the experience with the HP6S, they stopped burning bottoms of dogs and began freezing hamster butts to reach that blue. Bye. HPCC member #1046 - -- ==== As I stated earlier, I am not looking for a PDA. I am looking for an aid in calculation. The machine should turn on instantly and should be easy to use. Besides my 49 I also have Psion, which should be a nice platform for a calculator. However, the keyboard is designed for wordprocessing and real world text, not for mathematics. A CAS could prove to come in handy, but I do agree that it shouldn't be the main selling point. I'd also rather have a good programming language (RPL should fill the bill). A touchscreen could certainly add value to a calc, because it could be used to explore graphs more easily...as well as greyscale. What is wrong with a calc that is a lot more speedier than the current HP's? So it will have hardware in common with your average PDA, but doesn't your remote control/washing machine/coffeemachine/vcr.. do the same given a couple of years time. It would be nice to have enough horsepower to run SPICE on such a machine, complete with schematic capture. Why not? I can't look in the mind of other people replying on this post, but it's not fair to call them eager for a new toy. I have used my 28 for several years now and was amazed by the simplicity of use and the computational possibilities of the calc. Now it should be time to move on (after 7 years) and I switched a year ago to a 49. I haven't touched the thing, because the interface is cluttered, the speed wasn't what I expected and the resolution should be higher. I am currently thinking of writing my dream calc on the psion (although the keyboard is not the most suitable for calculator work)... Please do include a good keyboard with the dream calc. I personally hate the palm like devices! Greetings, Eelco ==== A new HP built like an old HP. Charles Perry P.E. <3C8D1127.3F4B433F@miu.edu> <7fcf10a1.0203120347.3f89b773@posting.google.com> 22:07:25 -0600) ==== Was instant frying on AC if batteries are dead ever corrected? Crummy power plug at the calc end? Shouldn't such problems be corrected before so many are sold on the market? ( Well, we recalled those defective tires, eventually :) Both the first and the last Spice I bought had all the original problems; my first one (34C) went out of warranty (and then I had taken it apart and made my own keyboard repairs) long before I ever heard of the possibility of replacement -- which was only by accident, since there was no publicity or internet then, so many people must have been left with nothing but a bad experience to remember HP by. Since I did know about this when I bought my last Spice, I sent it immediately back to HP, and received an updated calc. But the update had a curious secondary effect, which was that at the same time that the circuit board and keyboard were updated, the chipset came back with a much older version, which seemed to me to be both slower and to have some possible bugs restored! Anyway, the real reason I had bought that 33E was that it was on final sale at Macy's at the same price as HP wanted for a spare AC adapter alone, so I got a free calc by purchasing the whole package instead :) The TVM program for the 34C which came in an application book was also pretty bad; it stored things in registers that it never again used, it sent the numeric solver off in the wrong direction for some solutions, and it got wrong answers for 'n' in BEG payment mode. But even the 48G comes with buggy sample programs, so it's an old tradition -- brilliant [or is it left to summer interns to write them instead?] Now let me give HP credit for replacing my 34C, when, even though out of warranty and significantly modified by me, they replaced it anyway. I did point out, when I sent it in, that it was still working perfectly at that time, thanks to my own repairs; I don't know whether this figured into the response, but its innards came back replaced, without charge. Note that the cases (with original serial number) were not replaced -- just the innards -- so it was not just send entirely new calc, as is necessary today. No; I bought the 34C the moment I saw the Solve/Integrate key :) [in the HP Journal :] Oh, I hadn't heard of that one :) Could problems with battery contacts cause frying on AC? [the NiCd batteries seemed to provide the only AC filtering] What you say reminds me of Garrison Keillor's humorous ads for his non-existent sponsors, e.g. Today's program is brought to you by Powder Milk Biscuits, which come to you in the familiar blue box, with the stain on top that lets you know they're fresh :) 25C had it (I almost bought one, but while I was procrastinating, the 34C came out :) Yes; that was when *professionals* bought calculators :) See also TVM above, however. Did anyone ever see a self-test fail? It was good indeed, especially for the assembly line test :) Actually, if you abort a programmable Spice self-test (STO ENTER), e.g. switch calc off during test, your continuous memory (regs and programs) gets scrambled, due to a design which was then popular even in computers (to cycle all memory contents around during self-testing). It's possible that some Voyagers (11C-16C) also do this, but probably the 12C is immune to an ON+D during the self-test (it also is the only one among my Spice+Voyagers to fix a small bug in CHS with ENTER). How many years did they take to start decomposing? I believe that the Spice keyboards were recognized already by HP to be destined to fail, as evidenced by the electrical shunt around every key, and the vapor plating under every key's dome ; it was a certainty from the outset that the severe bending of each plastic dome would break the PC trace under it, and that's what these extra measures were designed to try to make up for (but they didn't). The lesson of those failed keyboards may have persisted through the Voyager series; then it has been plastic city ever since. I haven't yet seen any keyboard from the 18C onwards; do they still bend the electrical conductors when keys are pressed? Casio and Sharp barely flex their plastic layers at all; on my cheap models there is simply a thin spacer layer with holes where the front and back sheets can be pressed together (one clever Casio uses stationary independent conducting disks glued to the back case, and has the keys press the thin printed-circuit against them, instead of the usual reverse :) Anyway, I have never seen any key fail on any other calculator, even a $5 to $20 Casio or Sharp, but my HP34C and HP22 (a Woodstock!) each died of key failure, which is a shame, because as you said, there were many other fine features in their designs, and it would have been nice to be able to still have a working one to display, next to my eternal 4-bangers :) Want to collect our fried 38C? [died of AC shock when batteries turned out to have gone dead] How much do you offer? (will be donated to university :) --- Here's something interesting from www.hpmuseum.org: Series Names Classic The first series of calculators (HP-35 ...) This name was probably given well after the fact. (HP wasn't sure at the time whether there was really a market for the HP-35) But they invested in it, with the highest quality of both R&D and production, and produced it anyway? Well, that really was the HP way (and in the HP Journal, Bill Hewlett is cited as the driving force behind this and several other pioneering calc products -- as a company co-founder, he evidently didn't have to seek approval at every step from people far removed from the field which uses the product). But it was also a really pioneering product, which no one even imagined at the time, and HP gave it to various scientists, who then lent their names and testimonials to it -- this seems much harder to happen today, unless some real breakthroughs get invented, for a really revolutionary product. [r->] [OFF] ==== Wasn't that well documented in the manuals or somewhere? It's like frying Elsies with a bad adapter, but not so instantly. Crummy? Did you know I've had to look it up in the dictionary? :-) Well, I think they must be reconciled by now, with all those marvellous calcs introduced in the 1980s and 1990s (until 1995!). You received a collector item. It's just that you were not aware of this at that time :-) You're cruel, John. Those sample programs just try to incite you to learn how to debug! That's why those calcs were so easy to open. Damnit, I should have kept my mouth closed! The problem is that they are very fragile, prone to break. That's all. Unfortunately, some Spanish editions were monochrome, and the translations meant a detriment to the quality of the originals. [Someday I'll talk about the translation of an accompanying booklet for the HP-41CX] Yes, when batteries are low. ON+D? Do you mean ON+PMT? 15-20 years? OK, I know, but remember: Lasting values :-) I know how you feel. My HP-21A behaves weirdly: Every time batteries are low (ready to be replaced), it does not show the familiar 0.00, but strange patterns (sometimes something like a stopwatch for a few seconds!) until I take the batteries out for a week or so (until a capacitor is fully discharged?) I guess that all it would take is a reset function. Any ideas? Bye. HPCC member #1046 - -- 756 A51 to save it. I don't want to use a topic var as those are wiped and i need this data to be kept. It is a list of ID's then DATA (either list or mat) So does ==== On your site I saw it mentioning an empty aplet for compiling using the 49 that wasn't yet availible. Are you still working on that or has it been placed in the closet of unfinished projects (like most every program I start working on ;-) TW ==== Can my 48G+ use a table like this to draw a graph? Time (seconds) | Lenght (meters) 1.0 | 11.5 1.2 | 15.0 1.4 | 16.0 ==== ==== ==== ==== Some days things work out just right and today has been one of those days. I stopped by the local university's surplus sales department today to get a used keyboard and found a box full of HP calculator peripherals and a 41CV. Among the peripherals are an 82161A digital cassette drive, a 82162A thermal printer, 82104A card reader, a 82153 optical wand, blank cassettes, blank cards, paper for the printer, and ==== Of course it depends on their condition. Does the card reader work? If so there is a card reader on eBay (1268389727) that has reached $91 and the auction hasn't closed yet. I would guess that the 82161A and the 82162A should fetch at least $75 each if they work, if you have box and manuals prob. more. Now for the CV. CVs are not very exciting because they need a time module and Extended Functions. Check closed auctions on eBay to see likely prices. Does the 41CV have any modules? If for example you have an Extended I/O module you may get up to $150 for it. Of course eBay is like roulette, sometimes you are lucky sometimes not. Another option that you have to consider is whether to sell everything as one item or to unbundle them and sell smaller collections, or even each item individually. For example eBay item 1267155549 is for a CX with more or less the same stuff you have and it has reached $310 with 3 hours to go before the auction closes. Finally, be careful how you phrase the title for the eBay auction. A poor guy a couple of weeks ago described the Extended I/O module as a I/O Module HP-41 HP-41C HP-41CV HP-41CX and so it closed just below $90. ==== with minor corrosion on the battery terminals. The printer has the former owner's name scratched into the back of the case. Aside from that, the cassette drive is in excellent condition and the wand and card reader seem to be untouched. I still have to buy batteries to ==== Why sell them? Even if you don`t need the stuff, you could keep it, as I expect them to be very valuable ($) collector`s itmes in the future. (Because the calculator departement of HP seems to be in its last ==== ==== ==== Aaargh! Has anyone seen the last batch of messages on TI's 83+ discussion ==== ==== How to use RPL commands and programs in assembly language ? Any advanced programmer can launch an assembly language program from a sysRPL program, you only have to include the assembly langugage code in the sysRPL structure. But how to execute a though simple task using a RPL program during the execution of an assembly language program ? The problem occured during the development of Icq HP (cf icqhp.multimania.com/english.html ) and I have the pleasure to give here the result of my reflexions... The following routine must be inserted in your ASM source at a time when the registers are either restored (LOAD in 067D2), or still unchanged (beginning of program). The routine uses 15 nibbles in #80539 unused by the HP49G because previously used - as far I know - for memory cards handling on the HP48G(X). The execution of the program evaluates the objet whose nibbles are included after the $ character and continues at the *Next label. Used registers : A folder A, C folder A, 1 level of RSTK ...but the RPL potentially modifies all registers (R0,R1,R2,R3 et R4 included). In fact, when the HP49 comes to the *Next label, only D0 is necessarily preserved from the Exe.RPL label. *Exe.RPL LC 80543 CD0EX DAT0=C A GOSUB SkipObj $nibbles_of_the_object *SkipObj D0= 80539 LC 8053E DAT0=C A D0+5 A=PC GOINC Back A+C A DAT0=A A D0-5 C=RSTK A=C A PC=(A) *Back D0= 80543 C=DAT0 A D0=C *Next @ ==== There's a somewhat easier way to accomplish that : CODE GOSBVL =SAVPTR GOSUB .rpl !RPL :: . . CODE GOVLNG =GETPTRLOOP (or so) *.rpl C=RSTK A=C.A GOSBVL =GETPTR PC=(A) ENDCODE ; !ASM ENDCODE @ or the equivalent: CODE GOSBVL =SAVPTR GOSUB .rpl CON(5) DOCOL !RPL COLA !ASM CON(5) DOCODE GOIN5 .eoc GOVLNG =GETPTRLOOP (or so; to return to RPL) *.rpl C=RSTK A=C.A GOSBVL =GETPTR PC=(A) *.eoc ENDCODE @ It is the way I include conditional Garbage collections into ASM code that can run anywhere. ==== Now, that is just great! I've always wanted a garbage collection inside my ==== If there's anyone who should receive money for it, it's Mika Heiskanen. It was a note of him (not even to me, mind you) where a similar method was described that put me on the right track. At the time, I didn't understand at all how it was supposed to work. The fact that a DOCOL is needed for code objects that are not embedded in a secondary was explained to me by Dan Kirkland. I do not want to receive credit for something that isn't mine ;-) BTW for the conditional gc code: Example: create an uninitialized hxs string of length 'n' (equivalent to NULLHXS SWAP EXPAND) * In : n (bint) * Out: hxs string of length n, size n+10 nibs * 72.0 CODE ST=0.10 GONC .L00 ( Branch Every Time ) *.Lme GOVLNG =GPMEMERR *.Lrpl C=RSTK A=C.A GOSBVL =GETPTR PC=(A) *.Lgc ?ST=1.10 GOYES .Lme GOSUB .Lrpl CON(5) DOCOL CON(5) GARBAGE CON(5) COLA CON(5) DOCODE REL(5) .Lend ST=1.10 *.L00 GOSBVL =SAVPTR GOSBVL =POP# C=A.A C+10.A GOSBVL =CREATETEMP GOC .Lgc LC(5) DOHSTR DAT0=C.A C=B.A CD0EX R0=C.W D0-11 CD0EX D0+5 DAT0=C.A GOVLNG =GPOverWrR0Lp *.Lend ENDCODE It can be run safely anywhere (TEMPOB or whatever). Werner Huysegoms xwerner_huysegoms@my-deja.comx (delete the leading and trailing x) [code snipped] Can I do jumps back to before the RPL part? Like this: CODE GOSBVL =SAVPTR *label GOSUB .rpl !RPL :: . . CODE GOTO label GOVLNG =GETPTRLOOP (or so) *.rpl C=RSTK A=C.A GOSBVL =GETPTR PC=(A) ENDCODE ; !ASM ENDCODE @ ==== Yes you can. But if you start writing loops over the RPL part, be aware that you must store your loop counter in R0-R4 or so (and even so, some RPL commands will change those as well), and in that case it's better to use the version with COLA, as otherwise you will build up a series of SEMIs in the SysRPL return stack (like with tail-recursion) Werner Huysegoms xwerner_huysegoms@my-deja.comx (delete the leading and trailing x) Good. Does that mean, if I have a huge list on the stack and do HEAD MEM, the list won't be garbage-collected? I know. I first tried storing all needed registers in SavMisc, but I enough HXS on the stack. Ok. ==== Depends. If your list starts with a ROM-object, it will be collected. TEMPOB, because HEAD will point to the object 1. which resides in the ROM, not in the list - and so there's no reference to (or within) the list anymore. Tail recursion is when the recursive call is the last command in your function ==== ==== ==== ==== No, it's just C. However, many TIOS ROM calls are not standard ANSI C, and for writing TI-Basic extensions (which act like system functions) ==== I have successfully been able to transmit data between calculators using a wireless transceiver (radio feq. 433MHZ) It works like a champ. There are some small modifications I have to add to my web page. I transmit with XMIT and receive with SRECVE. I can also connect the HP49G with to ==== Congratulations! I wanted to ask you what do you plug in your computer, so that it can receive the data sent by the HP? Do you use the same transeiver as for the HP? ==== my with to Very interesting news !! You can also visit my wireless HP49 page : icqhp.multimania.com/english.html where you'll find Icq for wireless (or wire) HP49 and ==== Karagiaouroglou says... you will have to step down the voltage (serial signal +10 -10) from the computer to +5 and 0 V levels (transceiver). Then, you need a transceiver (a total of two- one in the calc and one in the computer). I haven't done that yet, but there is plenty of info on the web with examples (i could make a diagram). What i did so far was a HP49G to HP49G comm both ways. (it works the same with HP48).It is very simple. the transceivers (2) act as a virtual cable (3 wires). - i got my parts yesterday and i put it together last night. so that equals 1 night ==== Please be aware that you need an amateur radio license to transmit on this frequency! Jeff ==== ==== Even if transmitting range is a couple of hundreds of meters? ==== It depends on where you are located. In some areas, including the US, 433 MHz is allocated to the Amateur Radio Service, and an amateur radio license is required to transmit on this frequency. On the plus side, an amateur radio license is very easy to get nowadays. On the negative side, even with a license, I'm not sure offhand how well this usage would fit with the bandplan (for example, you wouldn't want to interfere ==== to operate the radio is very easy. actually, you dont have to know how it works. just plug it. i just tried the software from Yoann D 216sir and i was talking from hp to hp wirelessly (and in a netwok). all i had to do was install the sofware (it has an application to be installed automatically) and start talking (it took me less than 10 minutes). i've never seen anything so easy. the radio is very small. and it can be power from a 2 AAA battery (see my page for last update). the radio module can be bought all made (see my page) or you can make one (see Yoann Desir page). now i'll look into connecting the radio to a pc or a modem. it should work. then Karagiaouroglou says... ==== Re: Wireless HP49G Does it work across a classroom? Through walls? Better not let this become apparent to your school admins, or they might start banning it. Which gives me an idea: Have the TI users made themselves a wireless communicator yet? If so, spread the word and try to get all TIs banned from schools; then there will be nothing left to switch to but HP ;-) Will this cause a mutiny, as did telling soldiers in India in 1857 that their bullets were greased with fat from cattle or pigs? Cyberessays itself is in keeping with the new scholastic tradition, wherein calculators or computers now do your homework for you, etc. Little roasted piggies walk up and down the city streets inquiring so politely if a slice of ham you'd like to eat. http://www.ii.uib.no/cgiwrap/arntzen/sanger/html/o/oleanna http://www.musiclegacy.com/oleanna.htm [with historical notes] Here the TI-92(+) probably has an advance. It should be big [huge! ;)] ==== I'm curious: what kind of modulation device do you use to get through the transceiver? Seems to me that a regular packet radio TNC could work, but it ==== says... ==== ==== I ask because I often experiment with sending/receiving of radio ==== I would like to know how to configure the input/output RAM of the HP49G to get an interrupt when a character is received on the serial port. I'm indeed adapting my IcqHP program ==== look at voyage au centre de la HP48 on www.courbis.com or look at the teminaltor source code on www.hpcalc.org http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/utils/terminal/term_045.zip ==== You can set-up two different kind of interrupt with the serial port. One is you will receive an interrupt while you're receiving a character. One is that you will receive an interrupt once you've received a character. You will control this behavior with the register IOC (Serial I/O Control register) =IOC EQU #00110 1 [SON ETBE ERBF ERBZ] Bit 0: ERBZ: Interrupt on Receiver Busy Bit 1: ERBF: Interrupt on Receiver Buffer Full (RBF set) Bt 2: ETBE - Interrupt on Transmitter Buffer Empty (TBF clear) So you're interested with the bit 0 and 1 of IOC ==== character. Of course it helps ! What do RBF and TBF refer to ? (because in some IO configurations, no interrupt happens even with writting #Eh at #110h). Could you also tell me what to do in addition to put ETBE at 1 to have intrerrupts when the emission buffer is empty ? ==== Corruption again? Is it an inherent property of everything? ;-) For normal HP49Gs it isn't a problem. For rcobo's HP49G it could be one, i.e. BOM pulled. What is BOM? Well, Borg Assimilation Module. The one with the hammers and the screw drivers, you know. ;-) Greetings, Nick. P.S. Oh, and thanks a lot for the explanations about the missing ==== Yes. But they are Epson card (same quality as the HP one).