A709 === Subject: Re: HHC2007 in San Diego Getting Close: Register On Line to Avoid Delays On Site > Do we have an ETA regarding the Conference Program? > > I *have* to make some time to visit family in San Diego. > Unfortunately, I won't be able to attend all day, both days. I think I > will only have a few blocks of time each day... > > * It was either take my whole family on the trip and see great- > grandmother, or not attend HHC2007 at all ;) > > Pal > Please read the Update #4 on the conference website at http://holyjoe.net/hhc2007/Final_Update_3.pdf . To quote Richard Nelson here: The speakers are busy getting their presentations ready and I will add the speakers schedule to the web site early next week. The registration list indicates the speakers. We have lots of speakers, and a nice variety of topics. HP has three or four presentations that they will be added to the speakers list next week before I leave on Wednesday. (I have family in Southern California). Changes are frequent and I have learned after doing many Conferences that it doesn't pay to do and redo the schedule. Just about every change impacts the schedule. We have a lot of material to cover and we will make maximum use of the time. Conference topics have been described on the web site. Sorry about that...we just don't have anything set yet. Jake Schwartz === Subject: Re: GPS Orbital Path > > Actually, SGP, SGP4 and SGP8 are for low earth orbit. SDP4 and SDP8 A hack/kludge with SGP non-LEO propagation is to have the differential correction process that results in the NORAD mean element sets create n_dot/2 and n_ddot/6 terms that attempt to account for deep space effects. I'm not sure if this hack was ever practiced for SGP4 because I believe SDP4 was developed around the same time, eliminating the need for the hack. I haven't messed around with SGP much. SGP4 has a single pseudo drag term B*, which is also sometimes hacked to take into account effects that the SGP4 propagator doesn't directly model. What I have noticed with this is the propagator will work well for maybe 5 days before errors start to kick in, and then grow almost exponentially (the secular errors in standard SGP4 propagation tend to grow mostly linearly over time). > are for deep space, and there's a simple algorithm to decide which is > best. SDP4 and SDP8 both call the FORTRAN routine DEEP, which > (IIRC) includes lunar perturbations, and it's quite slow. My stripped- > down version of SGP is about 20% of the complexity of SDP8, maybe > less. The intent is to get something that'll track pretty well for a > couple weeks. After that, you can get to the internet and get some > fresh Keplerian elements. Just make sure they are NORAD element sets - normal Keplerian ones will immediatly introduce a large error. Like I said before, in the mid to late 90's SGP4 and SDP4 were merged such that the propagator (both SGP4 and SDP4) are just called SGP4. The celestrak website I mentioned has up-to-date code, that contains many updates to the deep space propagation, and fixes for orbits that would behave badly with the gravity model used in SGP4. - Kurt === Subject: HP35s slower than HP32SII? Hi there, yesterday I wondered about the fact that a simple program ran about twice as long on my HP35s compared to my HP32SII. The program was nothing complicated, DSEing a loop 1000 times and within the body of the loop decrementing a counter and summing up the inverses of the counter. Both programs look exactly the same, the only difference is GTO W on the 32SII vs. GTO W001 on the 35s. Has anyone out there an explanation for this behaviour? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralf Fritzsch Bundesanstalt fuer Wasserbau Federal Waterways Engineering and Research Dienststelle Kueste Institute - Department Hamburg ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? hello, couple of reasons there... 1: the 32sII CPU (saturn based) is Made to do deciaml floating point operations (with registers designed to hold the number and build in decimal function). the 35S CPU is a 8 bit micro with no dcb, so everything has to be done with memory read/write all the time.... 2: the 32SII was programmed in assembly by guys who were gurus! the 35S is programmed in C on a CPU that is NOT designed to be programed in C and therefore generates vastly inefficient assembly 3: the 33SII only supports reals, while the 35S also supports complex and vectors, that adds complexity to the '+' operation 4: the 32sII CPU has direct access to all it's memory (512K), inclluding internal ram (fast access) the 35s has only 64K of memory and rom is user program is stored is external and serialy accessed in Software, so reading the user instructions is slow I think that all of these together are some of the main contributors to the slowness... cyrille > Hi there, > > yesterday I wondered about the fact that a simple program ran about twice > as long on my HP35s compared to my HP32SII. The program was nothing > complicated, DSEing a loop 1000 times and within the body of the loop > decrementing a counter and summing up the inverses of the counter. Both > programs look exactly the same, the only difference is GTO W on the 32SII > vs. GTO W001 on the 35s. > > Has anyone out there an explanation for this behaviour? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralf Fritzsch > Bundesanstalt fuer Wasserbau Federal Waterways Engineering and Research > Dienststelle Kueste Institute - Department Hamburg > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? question. Anyway, speed is no issue to me, since I have a lot of programmable calculators (both HP, and TI) to choose from. But I like very much the old-fashioned look and feel of this calculator, and especially the jealous compliments of my colleagues :-) Until the HP35s I used a HP15C for every day calculations, and very quickly the HP35s took over this position. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralf Fritzsch Bundesanstalt fuer Wasserbau Federal Waterways Engineering and Research Dienststelle Kueste Institute - Department Hamburg ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? <5led58F7nrctU1@mid.individual.net> > question. > > Anyway, speed is no issue to me, since I have a lot of programmable > calculators (both HP, and TI) to choose from. But I like very much the > old-fashioned look and feel of this calculator, and especially the > jealous compliments of my colleagues :-) > > Until the HP35s I used a HP15C for every day calculations, and very > quickly the HP35s took over this position. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralf Fritzsch > Bundesanstalt fuer Wasserbau Federal Waterways Engineering and Research > Dienststelle Kueste Institute - Department Hamburg > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Another difference I found is that a number placed in line in a program loop rather than in a register slows down the 35s much more than the 33s. It seems that the 35s handling of in line numbers is much less efficient than the 33s is, possibly due to the additional number types it handles. Rich Wood === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? Despite the flaws, I really like it, reminds me of the old HP calculators. It's truly useful to me, looks great, and so I bought two of them. I'll probably buy more as time goes on, especially if an improved version is introduced. keep up the good work - JCR > hello, > > couple of reasons there... > 1: the 32sII CPU (saturn based) is Made to do deciaml floating point > operations (with registers designed to hold the number and build in decimal > function). the 35S CPU is a 8 bit micro with no dcb, so everything has to be > done with memory read/write all the time.... > 2: the 32SII was programmed in assembly by guys who were gurus! the 35S is > programmed in C on a CPU that is NOT designed to be programed in C and > therefore generates vastly inefficient assembly > 3: the 33SII only supports reals, while the 35S also supports complex and > vectors, that adds complexity to the '+' operation > 4: the 32sII CPU has direct access to all it's memory (512K), inclluding > internal ram (fast access) the 35s has only 64K of memory and rom is > user program is stored is external and serialy accessed in Software, so > reading the user instructions is slow > > I think that all of these together are some of the main contributors to the > slowness... > > cyrille > > > > > > > Hi there, > > > yesterday I wondered about the fact that a simple program ran about twice > > as long on my HP35s compared to my HP32SII. The program was nothing > > complicated, DSEing a loop 1000 times and within the body of the loop > > decrementing a counter and summing up the inverses of the counter. Both > > programs look exactly the same, the only difference is GTO W on the 32SII > > vs. GTO W001 on the 35s. > > > Has anyone out there an explanation for this behaviour? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ralf Fritzsch > > Bundesanstalt fuer Wasserbau Federal Waterways Engineering and Research > > Dienststelle Kueste Institute - Department Hamburg > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? I posted my first impressions a while back. I've been using it at work now for awhile, so I thought I'd add my current views. and I prefer the RPN style keystroke programming to that used on the graphing calcs. My gripes are that the very top row of icons in the display are nearly impossible to read (they fall in the shadow of the bezel), it has definitely missed a few keystrokes, and I'm waiting to see just what the battery life will be like. On Monday, I needed to test a few different combinations of ball endmill diameters and depths-of-cut vs width of cut combinations that would normally have me looking around for a piece of scratch paper to quickly diagram out and come up with the equations. Instead I remembered the equation writer on the 38S and typed in: R^2=(R-D)^2+(W/2)^2 and was able to easily try out different sizes and depths until I found what I needed. For the features it has, and more importantly those it lacks, I think the price should come down a bit. But I feel better leaving this one sit out on the shop floor than I did with my (much harder to replace and more expensive) 41CX. > Despite the flaws, I really like it, reminds me of the old HP > calculators. It's truly useful to me, looks great, and so I bought two > of them. I'll probably buy more as time goes on, especially if an > improved version is introduced. > > keep up the good work - JCR === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? >Despite the flaws, I really like it, reminds me of the old HP >calculators. It's truly useful to me, looks great, and so I bought two >of them. Oh... I understand: left for left hand, righ for right hand... I agree that it looks great (vovever, looks less gerat if you switch it on), but this is abuut all. However: a. Display is UGLY, b. There is only one type of regression (linear). All 20 bucks calculators have more. Moreover, all 20 bucks calculators have statistics table based, where you can see and edit data table, c. Having 30K memory without any way to save programs somewhere - on PC, tape recoreder, flash drive is a nonsense. Compare this calculator with CASIO fx-9860G. Casio costs about 60 bucks, the same as HP-35. A.L. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > a. Display is UGLY, Subjective -- I think it's OK. > b. There is only one type of regression (linear). All 20 bucks > calculators have more. Moreover, all 20 bucks calculators have > statistics table based, where you can see and edit data table, You could program your 35s to do this, and it'd probably end up being just about as nice or better than what those $20 machines do. > c. Having 30K memory without any way to save programs somewhere - on > PC, tape recoreder, flash drive is a nonsense. This is a marketing problem (HP apparently felt they'd lose much of the academic market if they included such a feature), not a technical problem. > Compare this calculator with CASIO fx-9860G. Casio costs about 60 > bucks, the same as HP-35. HP has always had a premium price tag associated with it. :-) ---Joel === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? >> a. Display is UGLY, > >Subjective -- I think it's OK. I don't > >> b. There is only one type of regression (linear). All 20 bucks >> calculators have more. Moreover, all 20 bucks calculators have >> statistics table based, where you can see and edit data table, > >You could program your 35s to do this, and it'd probably end up being just >about as nice or better than what those $20 machines do. > Yes, I can program other types of regression. I could also program tables. Byt why and for what?... >> c. Having 30K memory without any way to save programs somewhere - on >> PC, tape recoreder, flash drive is a nonsense. > >This is a marketing problem (HP apparently felt they'd lose much of the >academic market if they included such a feature), not a technical problem. > They DON'T have academic market, anyway. And many people here pointed out that HP targets engineering market, not academic market. I would be pretty reluctant to key in i don't-know-how-long program for varius regression models, knowing that there is no way to store it and reload if necessary. Mentioned CASIO has 1 MB frash ROM, and I can shift programs and data to flash to be sure that stuff will be not gone if I replace batteries. By the way, it has USB port, too... >> Compare this calculator with CASIO fx-9860G. Casio costs about 60 >> bucks, the same as HP-35. > >HP has always had a premium price tag associated with it. :-) > Other big nonsense is vectors. Totally useless. A.L. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? <13f2ubkml5prr2a@corp.supernews.com> <8uo3f317dg5dv11k49h1cj5n27u2i6cjho@4ax.com> > > > > > Other big nonsense is vectors. Totally useless. > > A.L. How someone can make broad statements like these! How about trying to program an accurate NPV and IRR analysis in a 32s or 32s II. That what useless indirect registers available. Now I just carry one calculator because before I needed a 12c in addition to my 32s. Check the museum forum to see what interesting things people are doing with this calculator. And of course, I am aware of the shortcomings (I use it every day), but I am getting a lot more benefits from my calculator than inconveniences. Miguel === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? >> >> >> >> >> Other big nonsense is vectors. Totally useless. >> >> A.L. > > >How someone can make broad statements like these! How about trying to >program an accurate NPV and IRR analysis in a 32s or 32s II. That what >useless indirect registers available. Now I just carry one calculator >because before I needed a 12c in addition to my 32s. Check the museum >forum to see what interesting things people are doing with this >calculator. And of course, I am aware of the shortcomings (I use it >every day), Inetersting.... Using every day... For what?... A.L. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? <13f2ubkml5prr2a@corp.supernews.com> <8uo3f317dg5dv11k49h1cj5n27u2i6cjho@4ax.com> > >How someone can make broad statements like these! How about trying to > >program an accurate NPV and IRR analysis in a 32s or 32s II. That what > >useless indirect registers available. Now I just carry one calculator > >because before I needed a 12c in addition to my 32s. > Inetersting.... Using every day... For what?... Did you read his post? He mentioned that he used vectors for NPV (Net Present Value) and IRR (Initial Rate of Return), and that now he doesn't need to carry his 12c (a financial calculator)..... So, I'd have to guess something related to finance? -Jonathan === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? >> >How someone can make broad statements like these! How about trying to >> >program an accurate NPV and IRR analysis in a 32s or 32s II. That what >> >useless indirect registers available. Now I just carry one calculator >> >because before I needed a 12c in addition to my 32s. > >> Inetersting.... Using every day... For what?... > >Did you read his post? He mentioned that he used vectors for NPV (Net >Present Value) and IRR (Initial Rate of Return), and that now he >doesn't need to carry his 12c (a financial calculator)..... So, I'd >have to guess something related to finance? > >-Jonathan I use HP12 for the some purpose. Twice a year, in average. A.L. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Other big nonsense is vectors. Totally useless. >>> >>> A.L. >> >> >>How someone can make broad statements like these! How about trying to >>program an accurate NPV and IRR analysis in a 32s or 32s II. That what >>useless indirect registers available. Now I just carry one calculator >>because before I needed a 12c in addition to my 32s. Check the museum >>forum to see what interesting things people are doing with this >>calculator. And of course, I am aware of the shortcomings (I use it >>every day), > > Inetersting.... Using every day... For what?... > > A.L. ??? For calculations perhaps?! For many of us, a calculator is a tool that we use in our job, not a toy. I use my 35s nearly every day (unless I happen to grab my 48GX first) for normal engineering calculations. Since I work mostly in electric power, I use the complex number capabilities extensively. The 35S is nearly the ideal number cruncher for what I need. Anything more complicated and it is off to the simulation tools. Charles Perry P.E. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > >> >> Inetersting.... Using every day... For what?... >> >> A.L. > >??? For calculations perhaps?! For many of us, a calculator is a tool that >we use in our job, not a toy. I use my 35s nearly every day (unless I >happen to grab my 48GX first) for normal engineering calculations. Since I >work mostly in electric power, I use the complex number capabilities >extensively. The 35S is nearly the ideal number cruncher for what I need. >Anything more complicated and it is off to the simulation tools. > >Charles Perry P.E. > OK, this I understand... A.L. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > > > They DON'T have academic market, anyway. And many people here > pointed out that HP targets engineering market, not academic market. > I would be pretty reluctant to key in i don't-know-how-long program > for varius regression models, knowing that there is no way to store > it and reload if necessary. The licensing exams for engineering in the US have gone from a banned calculator list to an approved list. This list is very, very short. Currently the 33S is the only RPN calc on the list. The 35S will be on it soon, imo. > Other big nonsense is vectors. Totally useless. > > A.L. In your opinion perhaps. Ask someone who needs that feature and you will get a different answer. Charles Perry P.E. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > >> > >> >> They DON'T have academic market, anyway. And many people here >> pointed out that HP targets engineering market, not academic market. >> I would be pretty reluctant to key in i don't-know-how-long program >> for varius regression models, knowing that there is no way to store >> it and reload if necessary. > >The licensing exams for engineering in the US have gone from a banned >calculator list to an approved list. This list is very, very short. >Currently the 33S is the only RPN calc on the list. The 35S will be on it >soon, imo. Interesting, why?... What is wrong with using HP35 or more advanced calculator?... Maybe beacuse exams in the USA check memory not knowledge. A.L. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > >> >>> >> >>> >>> They DON'T have academic market, anyway. And many people here >>> pointed out that HP targets engineering market, not academic market. >>> I would be pretty reluctant to key in i don't-know-how-long program >>> for varius regression models, knowing that there is no way to store >>> it and reload if necessary. >> >>The licensing exams for engineering in the US have gone from a banned >>calculator list to an approved list. This list is very, very short. >>Currently the 33S is the only RPN calc on the list. The 35S will be on it >>soon, imo. > > Interesting, why?... What is wrong with using HP35 or more advanced > calculator?... Maybe beacuse exams in the USA check memory not > knowledge. > > A.L. No, because the exams in the USA check you ability to think not the ability of a calculator to think for you. Also to keep people from copying problems into the calc and sending them several time zones away where others are beginning their tests. Charles Perry P.E. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > >> >> Interesting, why?... What is wrong with using HP35 or more advanced >> calculator?... Maybe beacuse exams in the USA check memory not >> knowledge. >> >> A.L. >No, because the exams in the USA check you ability to think not the ability >of a calculator to think for you. Interesting... Calculator thinks for me?... What brand and model? I will buy immediately. A.L. P.S. As former university professor at two US universities I question your statement, quote: exams in the USA check you ability to think === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > >> > >>> >>> Interesting, why?... What is wrong with using HP35 or more advanced >>> calculator?... Maybe beacuse exams in the USA check memory not >>> knowledge. >>> >>> A.L. >>No, because the exams in the USA check you ability to think not the >>ability >>of a calculator to think for you. > > Interesting... Calculator thinks for me?... What brand and model? > I will buy immediately. > > A.L. > > P.S. As former university professor at two US universities I > question your statement, quote: exams in the USA check you ability > to think Since I mentioned engineering licensing exams, what knowledge have you of these exams? None I imagine. The typical university professor certainly would have no knowledge of them. Charles Perry P.E. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > >> >> P.S. As former university professor at two US universities I >> question your statement, quote: exams in the USA check you ability >> to think > >Since I mentioned engineering licensing exams, what knowledge have you of >these exams? None I imagine. The typical university professor certainly >would have no knowledge of them. > >Charles Perry P.E. > Yes, I was talking about university exams. However, I cannot understand why advanced calculators are not allowed: If you don't know HOW to solve the problem, HP 50 or TI 99 will not help. Anyway, it seems that even PE exams are multiple choice exams: Power Module (40 multiple-choice problems) General Power Engineering: approx. 15% of problems Measurement, instrumentation, and statistics: 5% Power metering Instrument transformers Transducers Frequency responses of http://www.ppi2pass.com/ppi/PPIInfo_pg_myppi-faqs-ee.html#content Such exams are typical US speciality. A.L. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? hello, > c. Having 30K memory without any way to save programs somewhere - on > PC, tape recoreder, flash drive is a nonsense. the problem is that allowing comuniation with PC would bar the calcualtor from a certain number of exams.... shame... cyrille === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? >hello, > >> c. Having 30K memory without any way to save programs somewhere - on >> PC, tape recoreder, flash drive is a nonsense. > >the problem is that allowing comuniation with PC would bar the calcualtor >from a certain number of exams.... shame... > >cyrille > Taking into account how popular is HP in schools, this is really serious argument... A.L. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > >2: the 32SII was programmed in assembly by guys who were gurus! the 35S is >programmed in C on a CPU that is NOT designed to be programed in C and >therefore generates vastly inefficient assembly That what?... A.L. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? I read a speed comparison a while back between various new models of HP calculators. Especially interesting was the comparison between the new HP35s and the Hp33s. The 33s is just about the fastest scientific ever made but the 35s has much improved programming, etc. Looks like the best of both worlds is split into two devices... I'd love to see the 35s built around the hardware of the 33s. JT > Hi there, > > yesterday I wondered about the fact that a simple program ran about twice > as long on my HP35s compared to my HP32SII. > Has anyone out there an explanation for this behaviour? === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > >> Hi there, >> >> yesterday I wondered about the fact that a simple program ran about >> twice as long on my HP35s compared to my HP32SII. > >> Has anyone out there an explanation for this behaviour? > > I read a speed comparison a while back between various > new models of HP calculators. Especially interesting was > the comparison between the new HP35s and the Hp33s. > The 33s is just about the fastest scientific ever made but > the 35s has much improved programming, etc. Looks like the > best of both worlds is split into two devices... I'd love to see > the 35s built around the hardware of the 33s. It is built around substantially the same hardware. The speed differences are due to the new capabilities of the software running the calc. You pay a speed price for the flexibility. For example, In the 32SII, and the 33S, all registers could contain only real numbers. Now, in the 35S, they might contain a real, or a complex, or a binary integer. So, probably (depending on how they implemented it), every register access, every pop or push operation, etc, must now have some code surrounding it to check for the data type in the register. Adding an integer to another integer requires different code than adding a real to a real; and adding an integer to a real, the integer must be converted to a real first; etc, etc. So it runs a bit slower on the same programs, even though the CPU is the same and it runs at the same speed as a 33S. As for the 32SII, the CPU and software bear no relation apart from functionality. -- Dave Boyd If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > It is built around substantially the same hardware. The speed How so? One is run using a 4-bits processor with 64 bits registers ; while the other is a 8 bit processor, with 2 16 bits working registers. The only advantage of the 6502 is the enormous amount of addressing mode. Other than the keyboard the hardware of those two machines couldn't be any more different ! Jean-Yves -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? <46f33566$0$25479$426a74cc@news.free.fr> JT Wrote: >>> I'd love to see the 35s built around the hardware of the 33s. >> It is built around substantially the same hardware. The speed > Other than the keyboard the hardware of those two machines couldn't be > any more different ! Actually, I think Dave was referring to the 33s and the 35s, in reply to the post he quoted by JT. I think you mean the 32SII is different from the 35s, yes? -Jonathan === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? > JT Wrote: >>>> I'd love to see the 35s built around the hardware of the 33s. > >>> It is built around substantially the same hardware. The speed > >> Other than the keyboard the hardware of those two machines couldn't be >> any more different ! > > Actually, I think Dave was referring to the 33s and the 35s, in reply > to the post he quoted by JT. That was my intent, yes. -- Dave Boyd If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. -Capt. Zapp Brannigan, D.O.O.P. === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? there were related threads on the forum of www.hpmuseum.org . Since the hardware of the 32S/II and the 33s/35s are totally different, you could expect some differences;-) The Saturn-based machine has a small and somehow optimized 'OS' with a restricted, but efficient 'programming language' . Seems either the SPL with 6502 core is not the optimal machinery for a calculator, or the routines written in C/C++ are not optimized for performance, or both... Maybe from a code efficiency point of view, it would have been better to stay with a CPU which was developed especially for calculators, namely the Saturn, even if it were a hardware simulation inside an ASIC or alike. HTH Raymond Ralf Fritzsch <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Hi there, > > yesterday I wondered about the fact that a simple program ran about twice > as long on my HP35s compared to my HP32SII. The program was nothing > complicated, DSEing a loop 1000 times and within the body of the loop > decrementing a counter and summing up the inverses of the counter. Both > programs look exactly the same, the only difference is GTO W on the 32SII > vs. GTO W001 on the 35s. > > Has anyone out there an explanation for this behaviour? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralf Fritzsch > Bundesanstalt fuer Wasserbau Federal Waterways Engineering and Research > Dienststelle Kueste Institute - Department Hamburg > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > === Subject: Re: Which processor is used in the HP 35S? >> Is the SDK written by Microsoft? I thought they were the world >> experts in software bugs ;-) > >The annoying thing about Microsoft is that, while they do use some of the same >tools internally that they sell to 3rd parties for development, they keep some >of the best development tools completely internal... and I've been told they >do have some *really* nice stuff in-house. > Well hopefully that will change. With the EU's recent decision MS has to let third party developers have access to these tools and tricks. Maybe it will happen in the US soon. === Subject: Re: Which processor is used in the HP 35S? Harold A Climer schrieb im Newsbeitrag > >>> Is the SDK written by Microsoft? I thought they were the world >>> experts in software bugs ;-) >> >>The annoying thing about Microsoft is that, while they do use some of the >>same >>tools internally that they sell to 3rd parties for development, they keep >>some >>of the best development tools completely internal... and I've been told >>they >>do have some *really* nice stuff in-house. >> > Well hopefully that will change. With the EU's recent decision MS has > to let third party developers have access to these tools and tricks. > Maybe it will happen in the US soon. > I doubt that MS has been forced to reveal their tools. They have to offer access to their inter-process protocols and other documentation to 3rd party developers. Raymond === Subject: Re: Which processor is used in the HP 35S? > Which processor is actually used in the HP 35S? > The same crappy processor used in all calculators HP's OEMed from > Kinpo (except the HP49/50). > It's a Sunplus, 6502 core with the worse software development kit of > the entire universe. SunPlus fissioned into four companies. These days the processors used in most HP calculators (other than the ARM-based ones) are made by GeneralPlus. === Subject: Re: OT: Re: Xcas > Until now I've done it in single base to the function of the problem, > to prove later with other cases, this one is the code: > > << > OBJ-> > DROP2 > DUP > DERVX > ROT > OBJ-> > DROP2 1 + > DUP > UNROT ^ > SWAP / > DUP ROT * > EVAL OBJ-> > DROP2 NIP > OVER SWAP / > EVAL > UNROT > SWAP * > SWAP - > >> > it's difficult to follow RPN if you don't give intermediate stack state and comments. > That are a little arbitrary and not so effective, but I reduced the > TEVAL to 93 seconds with this one... I will try soon with IBP to > optimize that... > > I also would like to know how Xcas work with it??? > > You can look at the source code (intg.cc). But as I said the bottleneck is dense polynomial representation on the HP, and the CAS algorithms are polynomial-centric. Try e.g. (x^1000-1)/x EXPAND Improving the integrator for input like yours would probably require major reworking in the simplification routines and more table-lookups. Too much work for such kind of exotic inputs... === Subject: Re: Orpie Revisited...??? <8oednTlro5u6VXLbnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@comcast.com> > >> > Why are programming languages becoming harder and harder to use, and > >> > MORE & MORE Expensive...??? > >> > Ugh. > >> > Thanx! > > >> Now you know why open source is becoming so popular. > > >> -- > > > If by Open Source you mean the kind of programs that are included with > > either: Emu48 or x48-0.4.3 i don't think that that's where the future of > > programing, or computer use is...!!! For some crazy reason; maybe because i > > was younger then-- i was usually able to figure out 80% of the contributed > > programs and do- hickies for the 'old' 48... But these two emulaters for the > > 48 require some 'unspoken' steps that i barely know enough about computers to > > reasonably guess at...??? My guess is that they both require a thorough > > knowledge of UNIX ( et. al. ) to run them... Apparently...??? You have to > > open up some kind of operational 'Shell' ( i have no idea what a shell refers > > to ) that you'd then load and run these things on... But all these > > intermediate steps are SO OBVIOUS to the person that put this together, that > > he felt that including those steps into the instructions would both humiliate > > himself & the reader...!!! You know, with most applications, you just click > > on it to get it up and running... So i'm curious; just 'approximately' how > > many 'steps' are required to get this emulator to the point that it begins to > > look like a 'virtual' HP48...??? More or Less than 500...??? sigh. Another > > kind of annoying thing was that ( for legal reasons...??? ) both emulators > > were missing numerous files that are marginally hinted at, as to what they > > were, or how you'd find them...??? > > x48 can be set up so that you can run the program by clicking on an icon on > your desktop. Setting that up does not require a shell, but it does require > that x48 already be a runnable program. I think the 'missing files' you refer > to are a directory named .hp48 in your home directory with file named rom > containing the hp48 rom. > > /home/daf}find .hp48 -ls > 973074 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 372 Sep 17 16:04 .hp48/hp48 > 973076 256 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 131072 Sep 17 16:04 .hp48/ram > > I grant you it takes time to develop the skill of spotting steps omitted > from instructions for building open source applications. There is no royal > road to mastery of that skill. > > > My aunt has a computer that she plays card games on, and she does quite a bit > > of email with too... But i think; Really... Really now... Really and > > Really... The State of The Art, Easy to Use Computers that are being sold > > today... Right now, Today. Are still primarily for Hackers & Geeks. > > Computers are still about 20 years away, at the pace they're heading, from > > being functional appliances that anyone can use, with the same functionality > > that used to be accessible to anyone that wanted to type a letter. And the > > crazy bit is... You can no longer buy a typewriter. So that that ability; to > > type a letter, has been taken away from your average Sam Kazoontight. The > > world is getting stupider. > > You have NO idea! > > > Honestly; i was reading an assessment of the > > productivity of an average office environment awhile ago, and it turns out > > that the productivity of a modern office, filled with computers, is not > > noticeably more productive than a comparable office 30 years ago...??? > > Computers are making us dumber. > > I enjoy working with open source. If you don't, then just look for ready-to- > run programs. That is Windows' hallmark. The closest Linux and *BSD come > to that is their package collections - ready-to-run programs that *still* > require administrative privileges to install. > > - i sense that by your last posting, i've ticked you off a little bit... in someway or another...??? ( did i mention that i have asperger's and i have trouble figuring those things out...??? ) i should also note that in most all other circumstances; i would have given up on this by now, but the complete craziness, on a metaexamination level, so intrigues me that i may endure myself for a few more postings... Is this really possible...??? ( i am asking myself...??? ) Does the mac download have all the necessary things i need...??? consider it. anyways... The file that i downloaded: --- But first... /home/daf}find .hp48 -ls 973036 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 daf daf 512 Oct 28 973074 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 372 Sep 17 16:04 .hp48/hp48 973075 1056 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 524288 Oct 28 973076 256 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 131072 Sep 17 16:04 .hp48/ram What do all these things mean...??? --- !!! OK... i downloaded a folder called: x48-0.4.3 It contains: ChangeLog : which is a text file config.h : which is a text file debian : which is a folder debain contains: changelog comat control copyright dirs docs menu README.Debain watch ( all of these are text files rules ( which is 'something else...??? doc : which is a folder doc contains: CARDS.doc ChangeLog COPYING Imakefile INSTALLING ROMDump.doc TODO ( all of which are text files Imakefile : text file MANIFEST : text file README : textfile These are the instructions for installing it.... INSTALLATION I improved handling of differences in Solaris, SunOS, HP/UX, and Linux. Things are not perfect, anyway. To configure some things for the Makefiles, edit 'config.h' in the directory 'x48-0.4.0'. There you can set the compiler, flags to pass to the compiler, and some other stuff. To build the emulator do the following in the directory 'x48-0.4.0': 1. xmkmf 2. make This should give you the programs 'x48', 'dump2rom', 'checkrom', and 'mkcard' in the directory 'x48-0.4.0/bin'. To get the serial line working, you should set up your .Xdefaults for x48. The resources concerning the serial line are: x48*useSerial: True x48*serialLine: /dev/ttyS0 ; your serial device here, this ; looks good for Linux. Run 'x48 -help' for a list of command line options. Look at 'x48-0.4.0/src/X48.ad' for the whole set of Xresources the program uses. --- The part that just kills me is: To build the emulator do the following in the directory 'x48-0.4.0': 1. xmkmf 2. make --- WHAT THE FAWKING FAWK DOES THAT FAWKING MEAN...!!! FAWK AND FAWK...!!! --- Returning to the folder x48-0.4.3 romdump : which is a folder romdump contains: Imakefile README ROMDump ROMDump.s ( all of which are text files ) rpm : which is a folder rpm contains: x48.spec.in ( text file src : which is a folder src contains: actions.c annunc.h append.h buttons.h checkrom.c constants.h debugger.c debugger.h device.c device.h disasm.c disasm.h dump2rom.c emulate.c errors.c errors.h global.h hp.h hp48.h hp48_emu.h hp48char.h icon.h Imakefile init.c lcd.c main.c memory.c mkcard.c mmu.h options.c options.h register.c resources.c resources.h romio.c romio.h rpl.c rpl.h serial.c small.h timer.c timer.h version.h X48.ad x48.man x48_x11.c x48_x11.h ( all of which are apparently 'C' routines...??? utils : which i s a folder utils contains: ad2c ( something else...? Imakefile ( text file makeversion ( something else...??? [ These files that are 'something elses, that are not text files, and don't open by themselves, and apparently need an application of somekind to open them...??? ] x48.spec : text file gxrom-r ( which i found on hp48.org - i think...??? hp48 ( the folder i created... it would let me prefix it wiith a . ...??? --- There is nothing here that even remotely looks like an application...??? And it's all mixed together, and all the README files contain everything -- except how to use it...!!! Gawd! i hate computers...!!! ( i like calculators though... why can't computers be more like calculators...!!!??? Far more reliable Easy to use Know what their functionality is Easy to carry around --- thanx. === Subject: Re: Orpie Revisited...??? > > i sense that by your last posting, i've ticked you off a little bit... > in someway or another...??? Nope. > ( did i mention that i have asperger's and i have trouble figuring > those things out...??? ) My brother was accused by his now-divorced wife that he had Asperger's. I may have it as well. I consider that a +, not a -. > i should also note that in most all other circumstances; i would have > given up on this by now, but the complete craziness, on a > metaexamination level, so intrigues me that i may endure myself for a > few more postings... > Is this really possible...??? ( i am asking myself...??? ) > Does the mac download have all the necessary things i need...??? > consider it. > anyways... > The file that i downloaded: > --- > But first... > /home/daf}find .hp48 -ls > 973036 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 daf daf 512 Oct 28 > 973074 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 372 Sep 17 > 16:04 .hp48/hp48 > 973075 1056 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 524288 Oct 28 > 973076 256 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 131072 Sep 17 > 16:04 .hp48/ram > What do all these things mean...??? > --- > !!! > OK... i downloaded a folder called: x48-0.4.3 > It contains: > ChangeLog : which is a text file > config.h : which is a text file > debian : which is a folder > debain contains: > changelog > comat > control > copyright > dirs > docs > menu > README.Debain > watch ( all of these are text files > rules ( which is 'something else...??? > doc : which is a folder > doc contains: > CARDS.doc > ChangeLog > COPYING > Imakefile > INSTALLING > ROMDump.doc > TODO ( all of which are text files > Imakefile : text file > MANIFEST : text file > README : textfile > These are the instructions for installing it.... > INSTALLATION > > I improved handling of differences in Solaris, SunOS, HP/UX, and > Linux. > Things are not perfect, anyway. > > To configure some things for the Makefiles, edit 'config.h' in the > directory 'x48-0.4.0'. There you can set the compiler, flags to > pass to the compiler, and some other stuff. > > To build the emulator do the following in the directory 'x48-0.4.0': Note that you want to work with the directory 'x48.0.4.3' since the source was updated after the instructions were written. > 1. xmkmf > 2. make If these programs are on your system, they should be all you need to build a running version of the calculator. It is my understanding that there is a separate download of developer tool software available free from Apple. You might have to download that software to set up your development environment. > This should give you the programs 'x48', 'dump2rom', 'checkrom', and > 'mkcard' in the directory 'x48-0.4.0/bin'. Yes. > To get the serial line working, you should set up your .Xdefaults for > x48. The resources concerning the serial line are: > > x48*useSerial: True > x48*serialLine: /dev/ttyS0 ; your serial device here, this > ; looks good for Linux. > > Run 'x48 -help' for a list of command line options. > > Look at 'x48-0.4.0/src/X48.ad' for the whole set of Xresources the > program uses. > --- > The part that just kills me is: > To build the emulator do the following in the directory 'x48-0.4.0': > > 1. xmkmf > 2. make > --- > WHAT THE FAWKING FAWK DOES THAT FAWKING MEAN...!!! > FAWK AND FAWK...!!! > --- > Returning to the folder x48-0.4.3 > romdump : which is a folder > romdump contains: > Imakefile > README > ROMDump > ROMDump.s ( all of which are text files ) > rpm : which is a folder > rpm contains: > x48.spec.in ( text file > src : which is a folder > src contains: > actions.c > annunc.h > append.h > buttons.h > checkrom.c > constants.h > debugger.c > debugger.h > device.c > device.h > disasm.c > disasm.h > dump2rom.c > emulate.c > errors.c > errors.h > global.h > hp.h > hp48.h > hp48_emu.h > hp48char.h > icon.h > Imakefile > init.c > lcd.c > main.c > memory.c > mkcard.c > mmu.h > options.c > options.h > register.c > resources.c > resources.h > romio.c > romio.h > rpl.c > rpl.h > serial.c > small.h > timer.c > timer.h > version.h > X48.ad > x48.man > x48_x11.c > x48_x11.h ( all of which are apparently 'C' routines...??? > utils : which i s a folder > utils contains: > ad2c ( something else...? > Imakefile ( text file > makeversion ( something else...??? > [ These files that are 'something elses, that are not text files, and > don't open by themselves, and apparently need an application of > somekind to open them...??? ] > x48.spec : text file > gxrom-r ( which i found on hp48.org - i think...??? > hp48 ( the folder i created... it would let me prefix it wiith a > . ...??? > --- > There is nothing here that even remotely looks like an > application...??? > And it's all mixed together, and all the README files contain > everything -- except how to use it...!!! > Gawd! i hate computers...!!! > ( i like calculators though... why can't computers be more like > calculators...!!!??? > Far more reliable > Easy to use > Know what their functionality is > Easy to carry around > --- > thanx. You now have all the pieces for x48. The development tools assemble the pieces to make a new file containing the running program. -- === Subject: Re: Orpie Revisited...??? <8oednTlro5u6VXLbnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@comcast.com> > > > i sense that by your last posting, i've ticked you off a little bit... > > in someway or another...??? > > Nope. > > > ( did i mention that i have asperger's and i have trouble figuring > > those things out...??? ) > > My brother was accused by his now-divorced wife that he had Asperger's. > I may have it as well. I consider that a +, not a -. > > > > > i should also note that in most all other circumstances; i would have > > given up on this by now, but the complete craziness, on a > > metaexamination level, so intrigues me that i may endure myself for a > > few more postings... > > Is this really possible...??? ( i am asking myself...??? ) > > Does the mac download have all the necessary things i need...??? > > consider it. > > anyways... > > The file that i downloaded: > > --- > > But first... > > /home/daf}find .hp48 -ls > > 973036 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 daf daf 512 Oct 28 > > 973074 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 372 Sep 17 > > 16:04 .hp48/hp48 > > 973075 1056 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 524288 Oct 28 > > 973076 256 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 131072 Sep 17 > > 16:04 .hp48/ram > > What do all these things mean...??? > > --- > > !!! > > OK... i downloaded a folder called: x48-0.4.3 > > It contains: > > ChangeLog : which is a text file > > config.h : which is a text file > > debian : which is a folder > > debain contains: > > changelog > > comat > > control > > copyright > > dirs > > docs > > menu > > README.Debain > > watch ( all of these are text files > > rules ( which is 'something else...??? > > doc : which is a folder > > doc contains: > > CARDS.doc > > ChangeLog > > COPYING > > Imakefile > > INSTALLING > > ROMDump.doc > > TODO ( all of which are text files > > Imakefile : text file > > MANIFEST : text file > > README : textfile > > These are the instructions for installing it.... > > INSTALLATION > > > I improved handling of differences in Solaris, SunOS, HP/UX, and > > Linux. > > Things are not perfect, anyway. > > > To configure some things for the Makefiles, edit 'config.h' in the > > directory 'x48-0.4.0'. There you can set the compiler, flags to > > pass to the compiler, and some other stuff. > > > To build the emulator do the following in the directory 'x48-0.4.0': > > Note that you want to work with the directory 'x48.0.4.3' since the > source was updated after the instructions were written. > > > 1. xmkmf > > 2. make > > If these programs are on your system, they should be all you need > to build a running version of the calculator. It is my understanding > that there is a separate download of developer tool software available > free from Apple. You might have to download that software to set up > your development environment. > > > This should give you the programs 'x48', 'dump2rom', 'checkrom', and > > 'mkcard' in the directory 'x48-0.4.0/bin'. > > Yes. > > > > > To get the serial line working, you should set up your .Xdefaults for > > x48. The resources concerning the serial line are: > > > x48*useSerial: True > > x48*serialLine: /dev/ttyS0 ; your serial device here, this > > ; looks good for Linux. > > > Run 'x48 -help' for a list of command line options. > > > Look at 'x48-0.4.0/src/X48.ad' for the whole set of Xresources the > > program uses. > > --- > > The part that just kills me is: > > To build the emulator do the following in the directory 'x48-0.4.0': > > > 1. xmkmf > > 2. make > > --- > > WHAT THE FAWKING FAWK DOES THAT FAWKING MEAN...!!! > > FAWK AND FAWK...!!! > > --- > > Returning to the folder x48-0.4.3 > > romdump : which is a folder > > romdump contains: > > Imakefile > > README > > ROMDump > > ROMDump.s ( all of which are text files ) > > rpm : which is a folder > > rpm contains: > > x48.spec.in ( text file > > src : which is a folder > > src contains: > > actions.c > > annunc.h > > append.h > > buttons.h > > checkrom.c > > constants.h > > debugger.c > > debugger.h > > device.c > > device.h > > disasm.c > > disasm.h > > dump2rom.c > > emulate.c > > errors.c > > errors.h > > global.h > > hp.h > > hp48.h > > hp48_emu.h > > hp48char.h > > icon.h > > Imakefile > > init.c > > lcd.c > > main.c > > memory.c > > mkcard.c > > mmu.h > > options.c > > options.h > > register.c > > resources.c > > resources.h > > romio.c > > romio.h > > rpl.c > > rpl.h > > serial.c > > small.h > > timer.c > > timer.h > > version.h > > X48.ad > > x48.man > > x48_x11.c > > x48_x11.h ( all of which are apparently 'C' routines...??? > > utils : which i s a folder > > utils contains: > > ad2c ( something else...? > > Imakefile ( text file > > makeversion ( something else...??? > > [ These files that are 'something elses, that are not text files, and > > don't open by themselves, and apparently need an application of > > somekind to open them...??? ] > > x48.spec : text file > > gxrom-r ( which i found on hp48.org - i think...??? > > hp48 ( the folder i created... it would let me prefix it wiith a > > . ...??? > > --- > > There is nothing here that even remotely looks like an > > application...??? > > And it's all mixed together, and all the README files contain > > everything -- except how to use it...!!! > > Gawd! i hate computers...!!! > > ( i like calculators though... why can't computers be more like > > calculators...!!!??? > > Far more reliable > > Easy to use > > Know what their functionality is > > Easy to carry around > > --- > > thanx. > > You now have all the pieces for x48. The development tools assemble > the pieces to make a new file containing the running program. > > -- After tossing and turning in bed, i suddenly had an epiphany...!!! i decided to type xmkmf into Google and LO! i discoverd an UNSPOKEN TRUTH...!!! It's a fawking LINUX COMMAND...!!! This has been so obvious to the creators of Orpie and you, that it's ( this is the epiphany part ( part ii ) ) a virtual TABOO to mention this...!!! It's like YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED to explain these things to Lay People...!!! So officially i give up. Clearly; Unless i know about a hundred zillion OTHER THINGS already, i am never going to figure this out, and you're not allowed to explain it to me... Why is this? It has to do with The Walking Fish People. Those are the aliens that created our DNA and Own Us. They don't want us to advance Evolutionarily or Socially too quickly, so they've invented a variety of Taboos that prevent this from happening. One is; The Taboo of sex with your relatives. InterRelational sex is absolutely necessary for Biological Evolution to take place, the chances otherwise, of two people having some random mutation that is going to result in a desirable feature is a zillion quadrillion to one, but if you screw your sister, the chances are 50-50... So The Walking Fish People have brain washed us into thinking ( completely contrary to our natural desires ) that interrelational sex is the most abominable sort of behaviour, and also it will create lopheaded moronic children, whereas in fact, exactly the opposite is true. Another is: The Taboo of explaining 'Secret Knowledge' to the Uninitiated. This is the Taboo that applies here. If secret knowledge were too easily available, then we'd have invented star ships thousands of years ago, or discovered ways of social cooperation and eliminated war and poverty while we were still neanderthals. oh well. There's no fighting The Bug Heads. As their cattle, it's our fate to simple accept their place as our predators. === Subject: Re: Orpie Revisited...??? <8oednTlro5u6VXLbnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@comcast.com> > > To build the emulator do the following in the directory 'x48-0.4.0': > > Note that you want to work with the directory 'x48.0.4.3' since the > source was updated after the instructions were written. > > > 1. xmkmf > > 2. make > > If these programs are on your system, they should be all you need > to build a running version of the calculator. It is my understanding > that there is a separate download of developer tool software available > free from Apple. You might have to download that software to set up > your development environment. > > > This should give you the programs 'x48', 'dump2rom', 'checkrom', and > > 'mkcard' in the directory 'x48-0.4.0/bin'. > > You now have all the pieces for x48. The development tools assemble > the pieces to make a new file containing the running program. > > -- Again-- This is all so apparently OBVIOUS to you that you don't see Why; for example- would there be a viable independant application, that i apparently have to run-- that would be called: xmkmf and 'make' ...??? And what is this 'UnNamed' Developer Software ToolKit from Apple...??? This is sooooooooo amazing kooky for me that it's like a bad Dali painting...! Is this really obvious to most HP48 users...??? Man oh Man... i am really out of the loop...!!! Thanx...! Just try to think of the steps; 1: 2: 3: ... that i would have to accomplish to get this running... ??? === Subject: Re: Orpie Revisited...??? > >> > To build the emulator do the following in the directory 'x48-0.4.0': >> >> Note that you want to work with the directory 'x48.0.4.3' since the >> source was updated after the instructions were written. >> >> > 1. xmkmf >> > 2. make >> >> If these programs are on your system, they should be all you need >> to build a running version of the calculator. It is my understanding >> that there is a separate download of developer tool software available >> free from Apple. You might have to download that software to set up >> your development environment. >> >> > This should give you the programs 'x48', 'dump2rom', 'checkrom', and >> > 'mkcard' in the directory 'x48-0.4.0/bin'. >> > >> You now have all the pieces for x48. The development tools assemble >> the pieces to make a new file containing the running program. >> >> -- > Again-- This is all so apparently OBVIOUS to you that you don't see Actually, I do see that. > Why; for example- would there be a viable independant application, > that i apparently have to run-- that would be called: xmkmf > and 'make' ...??? I have no idea I only ran into this myself when I built x48 for my system. It has something to do with the complexity of X windows. > And what is this 'UnNamed' Developer Software ToolKit from Apple...??? > This is sooooooooo amazing kooky for me that it's like a bad Dali > painting...! I don't have any more information about the 'special' Apple developer toolkit. Its existence is one of the reasons I don't use Apple computers. > Is this really obvious to most HP48 users...??? > Man oh Man... i am really out of the loop...!!! > Thanx...! > Just try to think of the steps; 1: 2: 3: ... > that i would have to accomplish to get this running... > ??? The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. :-) -- === Subject: Re: Orpie Revisited...??? <8oednTlro5u6VXLbnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@comcast.com> > >> > Why are programming languages becoming harder and harder to use, and > >> > MORE & MORE Expensive...??? > >> > Ugh. > >> > Thanx! > > >> Now you know why open source is becoming so popular. > > >> -- > > > If by Open Source you mean the kind of programs that are included with > > either: Emu48 or x48-0.4.3 i don't think that that's where the future of > > programing, or computer use is...!!! For some crazy reason; maybe because i > > was younger then-- i was usually able to figure out 80% of the contributed > > programs and do- hickies for the 'old' 48... But these two emulaters for the > > 48 require some 'unspoken' steps that i barely know enough about computers to > > reasonably guess at...??? My guess is that they both require a thorough > > knowledge of UNIX ( et. al. ) to run them... Apparently...??? You have to > > open up some kind of operational 'Shell' ( i have no idea what a shell refers > > to ) that you'd then load and run these things on... But all these > > intermediate steps are SO OBVIOUS to the person that put this together, that > > he felt that including those steps into the instructions would both humiliate > > himself & the reader...!!! You know, with most applications, you just click > > on it to get it up and running... So i'm curious; just 'approximately' how > > many 'steps' are required to get this emulator to the point that it begins to > > look like a 'virtual' HP48...??? More or Less than 500...??? sigh. Another > > kind of annoying thing was that ( for legal reasons...??? ) both emulators > > were missing numerous files that are marginally hinted at, as to what they > > were, or how you'd find them...??? > > x48 can be set up so that you can run the program by clicking on an icon on > your desktop. Setting that up does not require a shell, but it does require > that x48 already be a runnable program. I think the 'missing files' you refer > to are a directory named .hp48 in your home directory with file named rom > containing the hp48 rom. > > /home/daf}find .hp48 -ls > 973074 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 372 Sep 17 16:04 .hp48/hp48 > 973076 256 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 131072 Sep 17 16:04 .hp48/ram > > I grant you it takes time to develop the skill of spotting steps omitted > from instructions for building open source applications. There is no royal > road to mastery of that skill. > > > My aunt has a computer that she plays card games on, and she does quite a bit > > of email with too... But i think; Really... Really now... Really and > > Really... The State of The Art, Easy to Use Computers that are being sold > > today... Right now, Today. Are still primarily for Hackers & Geeks. > > Computers are still about 20 years away, at the pace they're heading, from > > being functional appliances that anyone can use, with the same functionality > > that used to be accessible to anyone that wanted to type a letter. And the > > crazy bit is... You can no longer buy a typewriter. So that that ability; to > > type a letter, has been taken away from your average Sam Kazoontight. The > > world is getting stupider. > > You have NO idea! > > > Honestly; i was reading an assessment of the > > productivity of an average office environment awhile ago, and it turns out > > that the productivity of a modern office, filled with computers, is not > > noticeably more productive than a comparable office 30 years ago...??? > > Computers are making us dumber. > > I enjoy working with open source. If you don't, then just look for ready-to- > run programs. That is Windows' hallmark. The closest Linux and *BSD come > to that is their package collections - ready-to-run programs that *still* > require administrative privileges to install. > > - i think it waa Apple/Macintosh that pioneered the idea of applications so easy to use that they were accused of being toys, and curiously, at the time, they were very easy to use, but now, they're converging with wintel and linux ( et. al. ) at being so bloated, and deterministic ( ??? ) that you have to know 'apriori' how to use them...! ( when i got this MacBook a few weeks ago... HONEST TO GAWD...!!! ...it didn't come with any documentation on how to use it... Not to mention; the zillions of little things that you would somehow need to know to set it up, to personalize it... i suppose that the thinking is; anyone that's going to buy a computer nowadays, grew up with them, and DO HAVE the familiarity with them, as older people do wtih toasters. ( curiously; thought, i've suffered various 'lapes' that have deminished my ability to 'keep up' with all this craziness...!!! thanx for you help, i really want to get it up and running, i will try to work my way through it... === Subject: Re: Orpie Revisited...??? >> >> > Why are programming languages becoming harder and harder to use, and >> >> > MORE & MORE Expensive...??? >> >> > Ugh. >> >> > Thanx! >> >> >> Now you know why open source is becoming so popular. >> >> >> -- >> >> > If by Open Source you mean the kind of programs that are included with >> > either: Emu48 or x48-0.4.3 i don't think that that's where the future of >> > programing, or computer use is...!!! For some crazy reason; maybe because i >> > was younger then-- i was usually able to figure out 80% of the contributed >> > programs and do- hickies for the 'old' 48... But these two emulaters for the >> > 48 require some 'unspoken' steps that i barely know enough about computers to >> > reasonably guess at...??? My guess is that they both require a thorough >> > knowledge of UNIX ( et. al. ) to run them... Apparently...??? You have to >> > open up some kind of operational 'Shell' ( i have no idea what a shell refers >> > to ) that you'd then load and run these things on... But all these >> > intermediate steps are SO OBVIOUS to the person that put this together, that >> > he felt that including those steps into the instructions would both humiliate >> > himself & the reader...!!! You know, with most applications, you just click >> > on it to get it up and running... So i'm curious; just 'approximately' how >> > many 'steps' are required to get this emulator to the point that it begins to >> > look like a 'virtual' HP48...??? More or Less than 500...??? sigh. Another >> > kind of annoying thing was that ( for legal reasons...??? ) both emulators >> > were missing numerous files that are marginally hinted at, as to what they >> > were, or how you'd find them...??? >> >> x48 can be set up so that you can run the program by clicking on an icon on >> your desktop. Setting that up does not require a shell, but it does require >> that x48 already be a runnable program. I think the 'missing files' you refer >> to are a directory named .hp48 in your home directory with file named rom >> containing the hp48 rom. >> >> /home/daf}find .hp48 -ls >> 973074 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 372 Sep 17 16:04 .hp48/hp48 >> 973076 256 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 131072 Sep 17 16:04 .hp48/ram >> >> I grant you it takes time to develop the skill of spotting steps omitted >> from instructions for building open source applications. There is no royal >> road to mastery of that skill. >> >> > My aunt has a computer that she plays card games on, and she does quite a bit >> > of email with too... But i think; Really... Really now... Really and >> > Really... The State of The Art, Easy to Use Computers that are being sold >> > today... Right now, Today. Are still primarily for Hackers & Geeks. >> > Computers are still about 20 years away, at the pace they're heading, from >> > being functional appliances that anyone can use, with the same functionality >> > that used to be accessible to anyone that wanted to type a letter. And the >> > crazy bit is... You can no longer buy a typewriter. So that that ability; to >> > type a letter, has been taken away from your average Sam Kazoontight. The >> > world is getting stupider. >> >> You have NO idea! >> >> > Honestly; i was reading an assessment of the >> > productivity of an average office environment awhile ago, and it turns out >> > that the productivity of a modern office, filled with computers, is not >> > noticeably more productive than a comparable office 30 years ago...??? >> > Computers are making us dumber. >> >> I enjoy working with open source. If you don't, then just look for ready-to- >> run programs. That is Windows' hallmark. The closest Linux and *BSD come >> to that is their package collections - ready-to-run programs that *still* >> require administrative privileges to install. >> >> - > > i think it waa Apple/Macintosh that pioneered the idea of applications > so easy to use that they were accused of being toys, and curiously, at > the time, they were very easy to use, but now, they're converging with > wintel and linux ( et. al. ) at being so bloated, and deterministic > ( ??? ) that you have to know 'apriori' how to use them...! ( when i > got this MacBook a few weeks ago... HONEST TO GAWD...!!! ...it didn't > come with any documentation on how to use it... Not to mention; the > zillions of little things that you would somehow need to know to set > it up, to personalize it... > i suppose that the thinking is; anyone that's going to buy a computer > nowadays, grew up with them, and DO HAVE the familiarity with them, as > older people do wtih toasters. ( curiously; thought, i've suffered > various 'lapes' that have deminished my ability to 'keep up' with all > this craziness...!!! > thanx for you help, i really want to get it up and running, i will try > to work my way through it... > Try to find some other MacBook users to network with. That will help you out in several ways. There are a many newsgroups devoted to macs. Here are a few: comp.sys.mac! comp.sys.mac.advocacy! comp.sys.mac.announce! comp.sys.mac.app! comp.sys.mac.appletalk! comp.sys.mac.apps! comp.sys.mac.com! comp.sys.mac.comm! comp.sys.mac.databases! comp.sys.mac.digest! comp.sys.mac.forsale! comp.sys.mac.games! comp.sys.mac.games.action! comp.sys.mac.games.adventure! comp.sys.mac.games.announce! comp.sys.mac.games.flight-sim! comp.sys.mac.games.marketplace! comp.sys.mac.games.misc! comp.sys.mac.games.strategic! comp.sys.mac.general! comp.sys.mac.graphics! comp.sys.mac.hardware! comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc! comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage! comp.sys.mac.hardware.video! comp.sys.mac.hardwarecomp.sys.mac.comm! comp.sys.mac.hardwarecomp.sys.mac.misc! comp.sys.mac.hardwarepowerbook! comp.sys.mac.help.codewarrior! comp.sys.mac.hypercard! comp.sys.mac.misc! comp.sys.mac.oop! comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3! comp.sys.mac.oop.misc! comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant! comp.sys.mac.oop.tcl! comp.sys.mac.p! comp.sys.mac.portable! comp.sys.mac.portables! comp.sys.mac.powerpc! comp.sys.mac.printing! comp.sys.mac.programmer! comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior! comp.sys.mac.programmer.games! comp.sys.mac.programmer.help! comp.sys.mac.programmer.info! comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc! comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools! comp.sys.mac.programmers! comp.sys.mac.programmers.misc! comp.sys.mac.programming! comp.sys.mac.programming.codewarrior! comp.sys.mac.scitech! comp.sys.mac.software! comp.sys.mac.system! comp.sys.mac.system.osx86! -- You should be able to get mac-specific help in those groups. === Subject: Re: Orpie Revisited...??? <8oednTlro5u6VXLbnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@comcast.com> <5cOdnfWkuuDIF2zbnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@comcast.com> > >> >> > Why are programming languages becoming harder and harder to use, and > >> >> > MORE & MORE Expensive...??? > >> >> > Ugh. > >> >> > Thanx! > > >> >> Now you know why open source is becoming so popular. > > >> >> -- > > >> > If by Open Source you mean the kind of programs that are included with > >> > either: Emu48 or x48-0.4.3 i don't think that that's where the future of > >> > programing, or computer use is...!!! For some crazy reason; maybe because i > >> > was younger then-- i was usually able to figure out 80% of the contributed > >> > programs and do- hickies for the 'old' 48... But these two emulaters for the > >> > 48 require some 'unspoken' steps that i barely know enough about computers to > >> > reasonably guess at...??? My guess is that they both require a thorough > >> > knowledge of UNIX ( et. al. ) to run them... Apparently...??? You have to > >> > open up some kind of operational 'Shell' ( i have no idea what a shell refers > >> > to ) that you'd then load and run these things on... But all these > >> > intermediate steps are SO OBVIOUS to the person that put this together, that > >> > he felt that including those steps into the instructions would both humiliate > >> > himself & the reader...!!! You know, with most applications, you just click > >> > on it to get it up and running... So i'm curious; just 'approximately' how > >> > many 'steps' are required to get this emulator to the point that it begins to > >> > look like a 'virtual' HP48...??? More or Less than 500...??? sigh. Another > >> > kind of annoying thing was that ( for legal reasons...??? ) both emulators > >> > were missing numerous files that are marginally hinted at, as to what they > >> > were, or how you'd find them...??? > > >> x48 can be set up so that you can run the program by clicking on an icon on > >> your desktop. Setting that up does not require a shell, but it does require > >> that x48 already be a runnable program. I think the 'missing files' you refer > >> to are a directory named .hp48 in your home directory with file named rom > >> containing the hp48 rom. > > >> /home/daf}find .hp48 -ls > >> 973074 4 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 372 Sep 17 16:04 .hp48/hp48 > >> 973076 256 -rw-r--r-- 1 daf daf 131072 Sep 17 16:04 .hp48/ram > > >> I grant you it takes time to develop the skill of spotting steps omitted > >> from instructions for building open source applications. There is no royal > >> road to mastery of that skill. > > >> > My aunt has a computer that she plays card games on, and she does quite a bit > >> > of email with too... But i think; Really... Really now... Really and > >> > Really... The State of The Art, Easy to Use Computers that are being sold > >> > today... Right now, Today. Are still primarily for Hackers & Geeks. > >> > Computers are still about 20 years away, at the pace they're heading, from > >> > being functional appliances that anyone can use, with the same functionality > >> > that used to be accessible to anyone that wanted to type a letter. And the > >> > crazy bit is... You can no longer buy a typewriter. So that that ability; to > >> > type a letter, has been taken away from your average Sam Kazoontight. The > >> > world is getting stupider. > > >> You have NO idea! > > >> > Honestly; i was reading an assessment of the > >> > productivity of an average office environment awhile ago, and it turns out > >> > that the productivity of a modern office, filled with computers, is not > >> > noticeably more productive than a comparable office 30 years ago...??? > >> > Computers are making us dumber. > > >> I enjoy working with open source. If you don't, then just look for ready-to- > >> run programs. That is Windows' hallmark. The closest Linux and *BSD come > >> to that is their package collections - ready-to-run programs that *still* > >> require administrative privileges to install. > > >> - > > > i think it waa Apple/Macintosh that pioneered the idea of applications > > so easy to use that they were accused of being toys, and curiously, at > > the time, they were very easy to use, but now, they're converging with > > wintel and linux ( et. al. ) at being so bloated, and deterministic > > ( ??? ) that you have to know 'apriori' how to use them...! ( when i > > got this MacBook a few weeks ago... HONEST TO GAWD...!!! ...it didn't > > come with any documentation on how to use it... Not to mention; the > > zillions of little things that you would somehow need to know to set > > it up, to personalize it... > > i suppose that the thinking is; anyone that's going to buy a computer > > nowadays, grew up with them, and DO HAVE the familiarity with them, as > > older people do wtih toasters. ( curiously; thought, i've suffered > > various 'lapes' that have deminished my ability to 'keep up' with all > > this craziness...!!! > > thanx for you help, i really want to get it up and running, i will try > > to work my way through it... > > Try to find some other MacBook users to network with. That will help you > out in several ways. There are a many newsgroups devoted to macs. Here are a few: > > comp.sys.mac! > comp.sys.mac.advocacy! > comp.sys.mac.announce! > comp.sys.mac.app! > comp.sys.mac.appletalk! > comp.sys.mac.apps! > comp.sys.mac.com! > comp.sys.mac.comm! > comp.sys.mac.databases! > comp.sys.mac.digest! > comp.sys.mac.forsale! > comp.sys.mac.games! > comp.sys.mac.games.action! > comp.sys.mac.games.adventure! > comp.sys.mac.games.announce! > comp.sys.mac.games.flight-sim! > comp.sys.mac.games.marketplace! > comp.sys.mac.games.misc! > comp.sys.mac.games.strategic! > comp.sys.mac.general! > comp.sys.mac.graphics! > comp.sys.mac.hardware! > comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc! > comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage! > comp.sys.mac.hardware.video! > comp.sys.mac.hardwarecomp.sys.mac.comm! > comp.sys.mac.hardwarecomp.sys.mac.misc! > comp.sys.mac.hardwarepowerbook! > comp.sys.mac.help.codewarrior! > comp.sys.mac.hypercard! > comp.sys.mac.misc! > comp.sys.mac.oop! > comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3! > comp.sys.mac.oop.misc! > comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant! > comp.sys.mac.oop.tcl! > comp.sys.mac.p! > comp.sys.mac.portable! > comp.sys.mac.portables! > comp.sys.mac.powerpc! > comp.sys.mac.printing! > comp.sys.mac.programmer! > comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior! > comp.sys.mac.programmer.games! > comp.sys.mac.programmer.help! > comp.sys.mac.programmer.info! > comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc! > comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools! > comp.sys.mac.programmers! > comp.sys.mac.programmers.misc! > comp.sys.mac.programming! > comp.sys.mac.programming.codewarrior! > comp.sys.mac.scitech! > comp.sys.mac.software! > comp.sys.mac.system! > comp.sys.mac.system.osx86! > -- > You should be able to get mac-specific help in those groups. thanx! === Subject: Re: 39g+ Applets to 50g Libraries??? > Hi People... As always is a pleasure to participate in the group... > > I'm thinking to translate some 39g+ applets to be used in the 50g, > but i have some doubts... > > In what programming language the applet are written? > It's possible to run it directly in 50g? > Can i decompile an applet? > > What software do you reccomend me? > > I'm not a 50g user and have only used sRPL at a very low level so I'm not entirely sure of my facts, but... When you say 39g+ aplets do you mean the ones built into the calculator or the ones written for it in various programming languages? If you mean the built in ones then they are not stand-alone entities. They call on a lot of ROM resources in their operation, many of which may not exist on the 50g. I would imagine that unless you transfer the entire operating system as well for them to call upon then I don't think just translating the aplet will help much. Not sure of this because I'm not sure how much overlap there is between the two operating systems. If you mean aplets created by others then there are two sorts. One type uses an existing aplet as a template (parent) and grafts extra abilities onto it using the normal HP Basic that is native to the 39/40g. This would fall into the same category as a built in aplet I suspect since their abilities inherit almost entirely from their parent aplet. The second type is created using sRPL or (very rarely) by HPGCC. It's possible that you could rewrite the sRPL and adapt it to a 50g providing that the code did not make any direct calls to system addresses. However that someone liked on the 49g and decided to translate/adapt to the 39/40g so why bother? Almost every game on my site (www.hphomeview.com) falls into that category. Why not just buy a 39gs or 40gs (the model that replaced the 39g+)? The cost is very low at the moment. I can buy a 39gs in Australia for about $100 at the moment. === Subject: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? I remember seeing a BEEP function that someone had worked out the tomes and timing of the 41 BEEP on the 48/19. Anyone have it? I can't find it on Hpcalc.org... Mark Wilson Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? Below are the timings, given for the SysRPL routine =setbeep. BINT_245d # 275 setbeep BINT_245d # 18A setbeep BINT_245d # 314 setbeep BINT_245d # 275 setbeep =setbeep expects the duration in seconds_*_1000 in level 2, and the frequency in level 1 . BINT_245d is a constant, the frequencies are given in HEX. HTH Raymond Mark Wilson schrieb im Newsbeitrag >I remember seeing a BEEP function that someone had worked out the > tomes and timing of the 41 BEEP on the 48/19. Anyone have it? I > can't find it on Hpcalc.org... > > > Mark Wilson > > Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail > > If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. > --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery > > http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ > === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? It's been a while since I played with sysrpl, so I think for now I'll convert to user rpl. >Below are the timings, given for the SysRPL routine =setbeep. > > BINT_245d # 275 setbeep > BINT_245d # 18A setbeep > BINT_245d # 314 setbeep > BINT_245d # 275 setbeep > > >=setbeep expects the duration in seconds_*_1000 in level 2, >and the frequency in level 1 . > >BINT_245d is a constant, the frequencies are given in HEX. > >HTH > >Raymond > > >Mark Wilson schrieb im Newsbeitrag >>I remember seeing a BEEP function that someone had worked out the >> tomes and timing of the 41 BEEP on the 48/19. Anyone have it? I >> can't find it on Hpcalc.org... >> >> >> Mark Wilson >> >> Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail >> >> If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. >> --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery >> >> http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ >> > Mark Wilson Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ === Subject: HP 49 won't backup to PC I'm trying to backup a 49G to the PC using ver 2.3 of the Conn4x. I am able to connect, and manually copy files/folders off the 49 through the program window, but every time I run backup from the PC the calc hangs and I lose the connection. It hangs with EXECUTE COMMAND EVAL STOP on the 49, then disconnects. There is a string left behind, then an EXTERNAL object on the stack. I'm running 1.19-6 Mark Wilson Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ === Subject: When comand Hi! I recently used a TI-89 Titanium (I'm, sorry, but I had to...) instead of my 50g and I noticed the presence of a comand named when. This comand allows the user to plot a system of equation. For example, if one condition is x>0, then you can tell the calculator to plot cos(abs(x)) if the first condition is true; you can then tell the calculator to plot cos(x) if x<0. My question is: is there something similar for the 50g, too? I tried to write WHEN in the eqw, when I have to insert the function to plot, and such a comand seems to exist because, if you digit WHEN, you can use brackets after this comand (for example, you're prevented from to doing so if you digit some other letters, for instance asddfgggf); thus, the calculator must understand the expression When as a command; however, this is neither present in the catalog menu nor in the User's Guide, so I don't know the syntax (which is certainly different from the one used by TI-89 Titanium). Any advice is welcomed! === Subject: Re: When comand Hi all, Another way: eg1: store '(X<0)*COS(ABS(X))+(X>0)*COS(X)' in 'EQ' and draw it, eg2: store '(X<0)*COS(ABS(X))+(X>0)*X^2' in 'EQ' and draw it HTH dj_jurny === Subject: Re: When comand I?m not aware of any command called WHEN. The way you described it just means that the global identifier WHEN is allowed as a variable. The plot-system will also plot programs, so create a program that tests your condition and depending on the test your desired function is drawn. Example: Assumption: you use RPN-Mode and X is the independed variable: ? IF X 0.000000 > THEN 'COS(ABS(X))' ELSE 'X^2' END ? Store this program in 'EQ' and draw it. You will notice that for the negative x-axis 'COS(ABS(X))' is plotted and for the positiv x-axis 'X^2' is drawn. HTH Andreas http://www.software49g.gmxhome.de === Subject: Re: When comand I never use my 50-g for graphing (I don't find it as good as 89s), but an alternative way on the 83 is to type equation and then the condition. Ex: Graph y=x+2 for x>5 so you would type y1=x+2(x>5) So you treat it like a Boolean expression. I'm not sure if the HP can do this, but there must be some way. === Subject: Re: Orpie Revisited...??? > > > >> > To build the emulator do the following in the directory 'x48-0.4.0': > >> > >> Note that you want to work with the directory 'x48.0.4.3' since the > >> source was updated after the instructions were written. > >> > >> > 1. xmkmf > >> > 2. make > >> > >> If these programs are on your system, they should be all you need > >> to build a running version of the calculator. It is my understanding > >> that there is a separate download of developer tool software available > >> free from Apple. You might have to download that software to set up > >> your development environment. > >> > >> > This should give you the programs 'x48', 'dump2rom', 'checkrom', and > >> > 'mkcard' in the directory 'x48-0.4.0/bin'. > >> > > > >> You now have all the pieces for x48. The development tools assemble > >> the pieces to make a new file containing the running program. > >> > >> -- > > Again-- This is all so apparently OBVIOUS to you that you don't see > > Actually, I do see that. > > > Why; for example- would there be a viable independant application, > > that i apparently have to run-- that would be called: xmkmf > > and 'make' ...??? > > I have no idea I only ran into this myself when I built x48 for my system. > It has something to do with the complexity of X windows. > > > And what is this 'UnNamed' Developer Software ToolKit from Apple...??? > > This is sooooooooo amazing kooky for me that it's like a bad Dali > > painting...! > > I don't have any more information about the 'special' Apple developer toolkit. > Its existence is one of the reasons I don't use Apple computers. > > > Is this really obvious to most HP48 users...??? > > Man oh Man... i am really out of the loop...!!! > > Thanx...! > > Just try to think of the steps; 1: 2: 3: ... > > that i would have to accomplish to get this running... > > ??? > > The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. :-) Not unless you know how to take that step. Is there an 'HP48 on Macs' for Dummies? === Subject: Re: Orpie Revisited...??? > > Is there an 'HP48 on Macs' for Dummies? Use whatever documentation exists telling how to download and install the mac developer tools. -- === Subject: Re: HP 49 won't backup to PC > I'm trying to backup a 49G to the PC using ver 2.3 of the Conn4x. I kept 2.2 (2353) and it used to work, AFAIR (also with 49G+/50G). If all else fails, backup to flash, copy backup from flash to HOME, and transfer it (as a directory; it can be restored again from any port) In the unlikely event of not enough room in HOME, you can always clear HOME (ON+A+F) and restore again later, from the backup left in flash. > I'm running 1.19-6 A little creativity with Debug4x (which is like Emu48) could get your 49G updated as far as 2.09 (this works, I've done the same) > Field Marshal... [in the air] Marshall Field [on the ground] === Subject: Re: HP35s slower than HP32SII? On 2007-09-21 14:21:07 +1000, bokubob said: > > Actually, I think Dave was referring to the 33s and the 35s, in reply > to the post he quoted by JT. I think you mean the 32SII is different > from the 35s, yes? > Yes.... I was comparing the 32SII with the 35/33 hardware. Jean-Yves -- They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin) === Subject: Re: When comand Yes, you can do this, but first to clarify the two situations you mentioned. > but an alternative way on the 83 is to type equation > and then the condition. > Ex: Graph y=x+2 for x>5 so you would type y1=x+2(x>5) I think you meant to type y1=(x+2)(x>5). The parentheses around the x +2 are required to have the effect you want. The x>5 evaluates to either 1 (true) or 0 (false). This value is then multiplied by x+2 giving the result x+2 when true and 0 when false. If you turn off the graph axes (2nd-Format, AxesOff), you'll see that it's actually graphing 0 when false. > I recently used a TI-89 Titanium ... > you can then tell the calculator to plot cos(x) if x<0. On the 89, entering y1=cos(x)|x<0 plots cos(x) when x<0 and plots nothing when x>=0. If you turn the axes off (F1, Format, Axes Off), you'll see that it really is plotting nothing, not 0, when false. The 89 won't allow the multiply by a boolean trick as it has stricter type checking, treating true/false as a true boolean, not an integer. As others have mentioned, this can be done on the 50g using the IFTE function. It's even easier than what's been suggested. At the Y= screen, simply entering your function as Y1=IFTE(X>5,X+2,0) Y2=IFTE(X<0,COS(X),0) would plot as the 83 does, plotting 0 when false. Read the IFTE (IF- Then-Else) function as IF x>5 Then x+2 Else 0. The 0 is usually hidden by the x-axis, but if you would prefer the don't plot anything when false option, then simply replace 0 with something not real, such as sqrt(-1). Y1=IFTE(X>5,X+2,i) y2=IFTE(X<0,COS(X),i) An interesting side note on the 89, when I defined y1=x+2|x>5 y2=cos(x)|x<0 then y1(4) returned undefined as expected, but y2(1) returned sin(infinity). Interesting. -wes === Subject: Re: When comand > Yes, you can do this, but first to clarify the two situations you > mentioned. > > > but an alternative way on the 83 is to type equation > > and then the condition. > > Ex: Graph y=x+2 for x>5 so you would type y1=x+2(x>5) > > I think you meant to type y1=(x+2)(x>5). The parentheses around the x > +2 are required to have the effect you want. The x>5 evaluates to > either 1 (true) or 0 (false). This value is then multiplied by x+2 > giving the result x+2 when true and 0 when false. If you turn off the > graph axes (2nd-Format, AxesOff), you'll see that it's actually > graphing 0 when false. > > > I recently used a TI-89 Titanium ... > > you can then tell the calculator to plot cos(x) if x<0. > > On the 89, entering y1=cos(x)|x<0 plots cos(x) when x<0 and plots > nothing when x>=0. If you turn the axes off (F1, Format, Axes Off), > you'll see that it really is plotting nothing, not 0, when false. The > 89 won't allow the multiply by a boolean trick as it has stricter > type checking, treating true/false as a true boolean, not an integer. > > As others have mentioned, this can be done on the 50g using the IFTE > function. It's even easier than what's been suggested. At the Y= > screen, simply entering your function as > > Y1=IFTE(X>5,X+2,0) > Y2=IFTE(X<0,COS(X),0) > > would plot as the 83 does, plotting 0 when false. Read the IFTE (IF- > Then-Else) function as IF x>5 Then x+2 Else 0. > > The 0 is usually hidden by the x-axis, but if you would prefer the > don't plot anything when false option, then simply replace 0 with > something not real, such as sqrt(-1). > > Y1=IFTE(X>5,X+2,i) > y2=IFTE(X<0,COS(X),i) > > An interesting side note on the 89, when I defined > > y1=x+2|x>5 > y2=cos(x)|x<0 > > then y1(4) returned undefined as expected, but y2(1) returned > sin(infinity). Interesting. > > -wes I consider the problem sorted out, so thank you all for your support! === Subject: Re: When comand > Hi! > I recently used a TI-89 Titanium (I'm, sorry, but I had to...) instead > of my 50g and I noticed the presence of a comand named when. This > comand allows the user to plot a system of equation. For example, if > one condition is x>0, then you can tell the calculator to plot > cos(abs(x)) if the first condition is true; you can then tell the > calculator to plot cos(x) if x<0. > My question is: is there something similar for the 50g, too? I tried > to write WHEN in the eqw, when I have to insert the function to > plot, and such a comand seems to exist because, if you digit WHEN, > you can use brackets after this comand (for example, you're prevented > from to doing so if you digit some other letters, for instance > asddfgggf); thus, the calculator must understand the expression > When as a command; however, this is neither present in the catalog > menu nor in the User's Guide, so I don't know the syntax (which is > certainly different from the one used by TI-89 Titanium). > Any advice is welcomed! Try 'Y=IFTE(0 0. IFTE is an abbreviation of if then else. === Subject: Re: When comand > > > > > > > Hi! > > I recently used a TI-89 Titanium (I'm, sorry, but I had to...) instead > > of my 50g and I noticed the presence of a comand named when. This > > comand allows the user to plot a system of equation. For example, if > > one condition is x>0, then you can tell the calculator to plot > > cos(abs(x)) if the first condition is true; you can then tell the > > calculator to plot cos(x) if x<0. > > My question is: is there something similar for the 50g, too? I tried > > to write WHEN in the eqw, when I have to insert the function to > > plot, and such a comand seems to exist because, if you digit WHEN, > > you can use brackets after this comand (for example, you're prevented > > from to doing so if you digit some other letters, for instance > > asddfgggf); thus, the calculator must understand the expression > > When as a command; however, this is neither present in the catalog > > menu nor in the User's Guide, so I don't know the syntax (which is > > certainly different from the one used by TI-89 Titanium). > > Any advice is welcomed! > > Try > 'Y=IFTE(0 > The above w ill graph COS(X) for X <= 0 and SIN(X) for X > 0. > > IFTE is an abbreviation of if then else.- Nascondi testo tra virgolette - > > - Mostra testo tra virgolette - Although the other methods kindly described work, yours is probably the nearest to what I saw on TI-89 Titanium; however, when I plot such a function, the calculator is much slower than usual in this kind of operation. Is it normal? If I plot a graph using the other methods, it is as fast as usual. Anyway, thank you all for your help! === Subject: SYSRpl compiler for 50G? It's been a while since I diddled with SYSRPL (10 years ago on a 48), but I got the bug again. What is the best compiler for on-the-calc compiling? And what is the most comprehensive translator between 48 SYS code and the 50? Do they use essentially the same SYS commands, but with the compiler handling the new stuff? Mark Wilson Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ === Subject: Re: SYSRpl compiler for 50G? > It's been a while since I diddled with SYSRPL (10 years ago on a 48), > but I got the bug again. What is the best compiler for on-the-calc > compiling? The best compiler is the compiler built in. You'll want some extra tools to make it easier for you though. You will want to install Emacs, extable2 (in emacs zip), SDIAG(also in emacs zip), Nosy(http://www.hpcalc.org/ details.php?id=4323), and probably OT49 (http://www.hpcalc.org/ details.php?id=3397) for easy library creation. Install all the emacs stuff (zip here: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3940). You'll probably want to get the sysRPL bible and read appendix A (http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=5142 - which talks about on-calc programming). TW === Subject: Debug4x can kill all Windows Fonts *** *** WARNING WARNING WARNING *** Install build 130 or later ON TOP OF the old builds and this problem will not occur. http://www.Debug4x.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Uninstall of Debug4x build 129 or earlier deletes the registry key: HKLMSoftwareMicrosoftWindows NTCurrent VersionFonts Windows will then use only little squares, circles and arrows after the next system reboot. You can use the System Restore to recover but this is difficult to see with the fonts all damaged. A downloadable fix is posted on the web page - but installing build 130 BEFORE it happens to you will solve the problem. If this dows happen to you, there is a FIX on the web site. http://www.Debug4x.com The following may also help: 1. Type [Windows Key] R - this opens the RUN box. 2. Type cmd - this gives a DOS command window. 3. Type Windowssystem32restorerstrui.exe to open System Restore It may be hard to see what the buttons are showing. The fix on the Debug4x web can help if you can open Internet Explorer, download the fix and follow the instructions. In many cases you can still read web pages. I am so sorry if this has messed anyone up. I simply did not know until it happened to me!! (twice !!) then I became suspicious. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Graves RKBA! bgraves@ix.netcom.com === Subject: Re: Debug4x can kill all Windows Fonts *** > *** WARNING WARNING WARNING *** > Install build 130 or later ON TOP OF the old builds and this problem > will not occur.http://www.Debug4x.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > Uninstall of Debug4x build 129 or earlier deletes the registry key: > HKLMSoftwareMicrosoftWindows NTCurrent VersionFonts > > Windows will then use only little squares, circles and arrows > after the next system reboot. You can use the System Restore > to recover but this is difficult to see with the fonts all damaged. > > A downloadable fix is posted on the web page - but installing > build 130 BEFORE it happens to you will solve the problem. > > If this dows happen to you, there is a FIX on the web site.http://www.Debug4x.com > > The following may also help: > 1. Type [Windows Key] R - this opens the RUN box. > 2. Type cmd - this gives a DOS command window. > 3. Type Windowssystem32restorerstrui.exe to open System Restore > It may be hard to see what the buttons are showing. > > The fix on the Debug4x web can help if you can open Internet Explorer, > download the > fix and follow the instructions. In many cases you can still read web > pages. > > I am so sorry if this has messed anyone up. > I simply did not know until it happened to me!! > (twice !!) then I became suspicious. > > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Bill Graves RKBA! > bgra...@ix.netcom.com I had this problem today with the build 129 and I solved it with the Windows System Restore, In all moment I can read the web pages. Before this happened to me, I already was unistalled the version build 129 and I installed the build 130, but i didn?t delete the the registry key: HKLMSoftwareMicrosoftWindows NTCurrent VersionFonts. === Subject: Re: Debug4x can kill all Windows Fonts *** > I am so sorry if this has messed anyone up. > I simply did not know until it happened to me!! > (twice !!) then I became suspicious. Didn't ever happen to me. . . TW === Subject: Re: SYSRpl compiler for 50G? >> It's been a while since I diddled with SYSRPL (10 years ago on a 48), >> but I got the bug again. What is the best compiler for on-the-calc >> compiling? > >The best compiler is the compiler built in. You'll want some extra >tools to make it easier for you though. > >You will want to install Emacs, extable2 >(in emacs zip), SDIAG(also in emacs zip), Nosy(http://www.hpcalc.org/ >details.php?id=4323), and probably OT49 (http://www.hpcalc.org/ >details.php?id=3397) for easy library creation. > >Install all the emacs stuff (zip here: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3940). >You'll probably want to get the sysRPL bible and read appendix A >(http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=5142 - which talks about on-calc >programming). > >TW I clearly have not had time to figure this out, but this thing compiles SYSRPL...NATIVELY?! Where is this stuff covered? The Hp documentation is a bit lean... Mark Wilson Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ === Subject: Re: SYSRpl compiler for 50G? > this thing compiles SYSRPL...NATIVELY?! UserRPL (plus its included algebraic syntax) is a far more complex language and runstream generator, demanding an extensive compiler, while SysRPL is actually rather straightforward, being largely a substitution of addresses for words, plus syntax for constructing various data objects. The global symbol table (extable) is not built in, however, and must be loaded separately in library form; then you're ready to let 'er rip. The Assembler is also probably more challenging than the SysRPL portion (ask Cyrille or JYA, who produced it, I think in the original MetaKernel, probably before HP ever even thought of an HP49). [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: SYSRpl compiler for 50G? Speaking of the native vs. external SysRPL/ML development tools, it should also be mentioned that while SysRPL syntax is the same, ML syntax in the onboard MetaKernel is somewhat different from ML syntax in the original HP assembler and Jazz, so source code tends to be compatible when it's pure SysRPL, but not when ML is involved. Accordingly, the original HP48 Jazz library, by Mika Heiskanen et al, which equally provided on-board SysRPL/ML to the HP48, was also converted (as a beta) by Daniel Lidstr.9am to the 49/50 series, and there its development ended, except for GaaK's later work on the extracted TED editor (visit gaak.org) Developers of both original HP48 on the calc itself SysRPL/ML development systems all had a hand in developing the HP49/50 series at HP, but the MetaKernel package (which also included a Filer, but not IIRC a debugger, a library of small tools, replacing the Hack library, plus general calc speed-up tools which weren't part of Jazz) eclipsed the Jazz package and became resident within the 49/50 series. Or to put it in Olympic competition terms, France beat Finland :) Jazz for HP48 http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1670 Jazz for HP49/50 (beta) http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4700 MetaKernel for HP48 [get it for the Docs :] http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=213 MetaKernel for HP49/50 [is in ROM, except for extable symbol table library] Basic extable [supported entries only] http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3245 And more, and more, and more... http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=extable http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=GaaK+TED -[ ]- === Subject: Re: SYSRpl compiler for 50G? Is TED really needed/desired on the 50? It was helpful on the 48, but seems redundant now. >Speaking of the native vs. external SysRPL/ML development tools, >it should also be mentioned that while SysRPL syntax is the same, >ML syntax in the onboard MetaKernel is somewhat different from >ML syntax in the original HP assembler and Jazz, >so source code tends to be compatible when it's pure SysRPL, >but not when ML is involved. > >Accordingly, the original HP48 Jazz library, by Mika Heiskanen et al, >which equally provided on-board SysRPL/ML to the HP48, was also >converted (as a beta) by Daniel Lidstr.9am to the 49/50 series, >and there its development ended, except for GaaK's later work >on the extracted TED editor (visit gaak.org) > >Developers of both original HP48 on the calc itself >SysRPL/ML development systems all had a hand in developing >the HP49/50 series at HP, but the MetaKernel package >(which also included a Filer, but not IIRC a debugger, >a library of small tools, replacing the Hack library, >plus general calc speed-up tools which weren't part of Jazz) >eclipsed the Jazz package and became resident within the 49/50 series. > >Or to put it in Olympic competition terms, France beat Finland :) > >Jazz for HP48 >http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1670 > >Jazz for HP49/50 (beta) >http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4700 > >MetaKernel for HP48 [get it for the Docs :] >http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=213 > >MetaKernel for HP49/50 >[is in ROM, except for extable symbol table library] > >Basic extable [supported entries only] >http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3245 > >And more, and more, and more... >http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=extable >http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=GaaK+TED > >-[ ]- Mark Wilson Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ === Subject: Re: SYSRpl compiler for 50G? Le 23 septembre 2007, John H Meyers a .8ecrit : > so source code tends to be compatible when it's pure SysRPL, > but not when ML is involved. Actually, the latest version of SASM (the assembler of the Hptools) is compatible with the syntax of the on-calc MASD assembler. === Subject: Re: SYSRpl compiler for 50G? <4abbf3l65vm3561mf4hnprfsgpquu11fka@4ax.com> > I clearly have not had time to figure this out, but this thing > compiles SYSRPL...NATIVELY?! Actually, it compiles sysRPL, saturn assembly, and ARM assembly. > Where is this stuff covered? The Hp documentation is a bit lean... Isn't lean. . . they just don't publish the fact that it is avaliable very much. :-( You'll be wanting the advanced uses reference avaliable here. You'll be interested in chapter 6 'The development library'. http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DocumentIndex.jsp?contentTy pe=SupportManual&lang=en&cc=us&docIndexId=179111&taskId=101&prodTypeId=215348 &prodSeriesId=3235173 The full users manual is also there. The little tiny one that comes with the calc is just a basic thing and only really functional as a door wedge. :-) TW === Subject: Re: When comand > Although the other methods kindly described work, Virgil's [using IFTE] > is probably the nearest to what I saw on TI-89 Titanium; however, > when I plot such a function, the calculator is much slower than usual > in this kind of operation. Is it normal? > If I plot a graph using the other methods, it is as fast as usual. Editing the function in Approximate mode (in which all numbers are floating point, including integers) may result in faster subsequent execution than editing it in Exact mode (in which integers are created differently, and take more time when used in computations). But another choice of modes can sometimes be even more important: In which calculator mode did you edit the expression containing IFTE? That is, was it in ALGebraic mode, or in RPN mode? If you would like to see why this could matter a great deal, read about hp50G and recursion, in which the execution time for a recursively defined function using IFTE became infinite! (but only in ALG mode!) The essence of that surprising behavior was that in ALG mode, 'IFTE(x,y,z)' is compiled in such a way that 'x' and 'y' and 'z' are all evaluated first, then 'x' is tested, to choose one of the remaining results afterwards, which is subtly different from the logic of IF x THEN y ELSE z END, in which 'x' is tested first, and then only one of 'y' or 'z' is evaluated, illustrating that the subtlest differences in how we evaluate and experience life can change absolutely everything. With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu and http://www.maharishischooliowa.org -[ ]- === Subject: Re: When comand I'm so sorry, but I cannot understand which is the link between the latest 4 answers and my problem (probably it's my fault). Anyway, I tried to de-activate flag 119, and of course the result didn't change, so using the TI-83 method I'm still not able to get the correct graph. And, if I set to not-rigorous the calculator, using the IFTE mode the operation isn't as fas as I expected; what's more, the graph only consists in the positive part of the circumference. Awkward problem, isn't it? === Subject: Re: When comand Well, if I have to say there would be something else I would like to know... about this kind of graphs (graphs of systems of equations). I'm encountering some problems with the following: 1st equation: SQRT(4-x^2) with ABS(x)<=2 2nd equation: ABS(x)-2 with ABS(x)>2 The 50g plots the graph correctly only using the following methods: 1) writing a small program, as described by Andreas (so typing << IF 'abs(x)<=2' THEN 'SQRT(4-x^2)' ELSE 'abs(x)-2' END >>); 2) using the IFTE method, as suggested by Virgil and others; Quite surprisingly to me, if I use the method of the TI-83 (let's call it this way), so if I write (abs(x)<=2)*(SQRT(4-x^2))+ (abs(x)>2)*(abs(x)-2)), the calculator only plots the positive part of the semi-circumference. Has anyone of you got an idea about why the machine behaves in such a way? === Subject: Re: When comand > I'm encountering some problems with the following: > 1st equation: SQRT(4-x^2) with ABS(x)<=2 > 2nd equation: ABS(x)-2 with ABS(x)>2 > The 50g plots the graph correctly only using the following methods: > 1) writing a small program, as described by Andreas (so typing << IF > 'abs(x)<=2' THEN 'SQRT(4-x^2)' ELSE 'abs(x)-2' END >>); > 2) using the IFTE method, as suggested by Virgil and others; > Quite surprisingly to me, if I use the method of the TI-83 (let's call > it this way), so if I write (abs(x)<=2)*(SQRT(4-x^2))+ > (abs(x)>2)*(abs(x)-2)), the calculator only plots > the positive part of the semi-circumference. > Has anyone of you got an idea about why the machine > behaves in such a way? I see that Virgil has already pointed out the CAS flag (-119), which corresponds to the Rigorous option in the MODE > CAS screen. The CASCFG command (set default CAS settings) also corrects this. Those who have original HP48S/G non-CAS series never slip into this gutter :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: When comand [about plots using 'ABS()' function in formulas] I forgot to mention that only _algebraic_ formula evaluation is subject to the Rigorous flag (-119) of the CAS; the ABS command itself, with stack arguments, doesn't seem to pay attention to it, so non-CAS evaluation of ABS remains unaffected, AFAIAA. But if your programs which still evaluate some algebraic expressions (even less than expressions) actually do work, even in non-rigorous mode, then it would appear that *some* of the formula evaluations are *always* rigorous (that is, using COMPEVAL rather than CASCOMPEVAL) -- I wonder whether there's a formula for knowing exactly when each behavior occurs? [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: When comand > Well, if I have to say there would be something else I would like to > know... about this kind of graphs (graphs of systems of equations). > I'm encountering some problems with the following: > 1st equation: SQRT(4-x^2) with ABS(x)<=2 > 2nd equation: ABS(x)-2 with ABS(x)>2 > The 50g plots the graph correctly only using the following methods: > 1) writing a small program, as described by Andreas (so typing << IF > 'abs(x)<=2' THEN 'SQRT(4-x^2)' ELSE 'abs(x)-2' END >>); > 2) using the IFTE method, as suggested by Virgil and others; > Quite surprisingly to me, if I use the method of the TI-83 (let's call > it this way), so if I write (abs(x)<=2)*(SQRT(4-x^2))+ > (abs(x)>2)*(abs(x)-2)), the calculator only plots the positive part of > the semi-circumference. > Has anyone of you got an idea about why the machine behaves in such a > way? There is a system flag, number -119, which, when set, causes ABS(X) to behave like an absolute value but, when clear, treats 'ABS(X)' like plain X. For example, do -119 CF to clear the flag then 'ABS(X)' STEQ ERASE DRAW and you will see the absolute value function graphed, but now do ON -119 SF ERASE DRAW and the same function in 'EQ now graphs as if it were an un-absoluted 'X'. The HP's have a whole bunch of tricks like that , which you only learn about through experience. === Subject: System Flag -110? I know that this flag is used to change the behavior towards matrices when they small or large. I can't find any more information, though, about the specific changes brought about by toggling this flag. Mark === Subject: New born the new HP17BII+ HP is launching a new HP17BII+. Sure it doesn't change the HP17BII concept but the quality will probably be higher than the previous HP 17BII+ (as the HP10BII it was relatively cheap quality). Notice also the arrival in the familly of the HP10S (=Casio 92 College or HP 8S but with solar power capability) All the best to theses nice babies. jajacom === Subject: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 I've run into a glich with SDFiler 1.0 Earlier this year, there was some discussion about an earlier version's Invalid Time error that was related to the date format. I seem to have hit another Invalid Time error with a particular file, but it happens regardless of the date format. I think it has to do with the file itself. When I use SDINFO, it reports the time-stamp as 17.0460 (notice the 60 in the seconds field) Windows reports the time-stamp as 5:04:00 PM SDFiler exists with Invalid Time when it hits the file The file was created directly onto :3: using the ARCHIVE command. My guess is that the time was somewhere between 17:04:59.5 and 17:50:00.0 and that bad rounding took place. In any case, perhaps the seconds field could be MOD 60 to prevent it from crashing the filer. -wes === Subject: Re: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 > The file was created directly onto :3: using the ARCHIVE command. My > guess is that the time was somewhere between 17:04:59.5 and 17:50:00.0 > and that bad rounding took place. In any case, perhaps the seconds > field could be MOD 60 to prevent it from crashing the filer. Maybe. If I remember right the source is included. . . so go right ahead. :-) TW === Subject: Re: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 > > The file was created directly onto :3: using the ARCHIVE command. My > > guess is that the time was somewhere between 17:04:59.5 and 17:50:00.0 > > and that bad rounding took place. In any case, perhaps the seconds > > field could be MOD 60 to prevent it from crashing the filer. > > Maybe. If I remember right the source is included. . . so go right > ahead. :-) > > TW Actually, I tried before I posted, but frankly, looking at the source code was a humbling experience. But after your encouragement, I decided to try again. I couldn't figure out why the string invalid time wasn't anywhere in your source till I realized that it was coming from the TOD>t$ function. With that missing link, I inserted the following above the only call to TOD>t$ in broswer.S For all you sysRPL experts, consider the following more of a proof of concept. I'm sure it can be improved considerably, but it does fix the problem. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ( In case the file timestamp has an invalid seconds field such as 17.0460, as has been know to happen, use MOD 60 on the seconds. Convert h.mmSS -> h.mmss ) DUP ( h.mmSS h.mmSS ) %2 TRCXY ( h.mmSS h.mm ) SWAP ( h.mm h.mmSS ) % .01 %MOD ( h.mm 0.00SS ) % .006 %MOD ( h.mm 0.00ss ) %+ ( h.mmss ) ( end of modifications ) TOD>t$ --------------------------------------------------------------------- No doubt, it would be better to make this change in SDLIB instead. from value=tdate.tm_sec+tdate.tm_min*100+tdate.tm_hour*10000; to value=tdate.tm_sec%60+tdate.tm_min*100+tdate.tm_hour*10000; -wes === Subject: Re: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 > The file was created directly onto :3: using the ARCHIVE command. My > guess is that the time was somewhere between 17:04:59.5 and 17:50:00.0 er, make that between 17:04:59.5 and 17:05:00.0 -wes === Subject: HEY!!!! -> New HP Calc!!!??? Hi people... Can somebody explain to me what is this? :-D http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p= 1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=D547,362.PN.&OS=PN/D547,3 62&RS=PN/D547,362 New Pattent for Calculator with port and cover by Cyrille de Brebisson... === Subject: Re: HEY!!!! -> New HP Calc!!!??? > Hi people... > > Can somebody explain to me what is this? :-D > > http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=... > > New Pattent for Calculator with port and cover by Cyrille de > Brebisson... Looks like a 50G with the cover of the original 49G. === Subject: Re: HEY!!!! -> New HP Calc!!!??? Keep in mind, not everything that is patented is a good idea, or makes it to market. For instance: It's a classic, and always makes me smile. -Jonathan === Subject: Re: HEY!!!! -> New HP Calc!!!??? it looks a lot like a 50g (serial and usb ports) with a slide on hard cover, like you'd see on a TI, Casio and other calculators that don't have nice soft cases that protect the calculator if it falls. -Jonathan > Hi people... > > Can somebody explain to me what is this? :-D > > http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=... > > New Pattent for Calculator with port and cover by Cyrille de > Brebisson... === Subject: Re: New born the new HP17BII+ > HP is launching a new HP17BII+. > Sure it doesn't change the HP17BII concept but the quality will probably be > higher than the previous HP 17BII+ (as the HP10BII it was relatively cheap > quality). > > Notice also the arrival in the familly of the HP10S (=Casio 92 College or HP > 8S but with solar power capability) > > All the best to theses nice babies. > > jajacom Any idea of availability date? price range? === Subject: Re: New born the new HP17BII+ Both are now available in France. tunerpip a .8ecrit dans le message de >> HP is launching a new HP17BII+. >> Sure it doesn't change the HP17BII concept but the quality will probably >> be >> higher than the previous HP 17BII+ (as the HP10BII it was relatively >> cheap >> quality). >> >> Notice also the arrival in the familly of the HP10S (=Casio 92 College or >> HP >> 8S but with solar power capability) >> >> All the best to theses nice babies. >> >> jajacom > > Any idea of availability date? price range? > === Subject: SysRPL code from HP48 to 49 series Hi all. On a different forum a guy asked for some help in trying to use a 48GX program (SysRPL) on a 50G. I'm aware about the caveats to be considered in such matters, but, in my naive understanding, the SysRPL code doesn't seem to contain any problematic instruction to prevent it from working on a 50G. Here follows the code: :: CK1NOLASTWD CK&DISPATCH1 real :: DEFINE EMAS ID ABAJO.F %10 %/ ' ID ABAJO.F DUP PURGE STO ID ARRIBA.F %1 %+ ' ID ARRIBA.F DUP PURGE STO DEFINE EMENOS ID ABAJO.F %10 %* ' ID ABAJO.F DUP PURGE STO ID ARRIBA.F %1 %- ' ID ARRIBA.F DUP PURGE STO DEFINE MUESTRA ID ABAJO.F %10 xRND DO>STR $ E ID ARRIBA.F DO>STR &$ &$ DEFINE FIN ID MENU.F xMENU ' ID ABAJO.F PURGE ' ID ARRIBA.F PURGE ' ID MENU.F PURGE DEFINE SIEMENOS ID ABAJO.F % 10000000 % 10000 %* %< xRCLMENU ' ID MENU.F STO DUPDUP %EXPONENT SWAP %MANTISSA ' ID ABAJO.F STO ' ID ARRIBA.F STO MUESTRA { { $ E+ :: EMAS CK1NOLASTWD DROP MUESTRA ; } { $ E- :: SIEMENOS IT :: EMENOS ; CK1NOLASTWD DROP MUESTRA ; } { } { } { } { $ E :: FIN CK1NOLASTWD DROP ; } } xTMENU ; ; I kindly ask any of you SysRPL Masters :-) to have a look at the above and try to let me understand (so that I'm able to explain it in my turn) what are the major roadblocks for using that piece of code on a 50G. By the way, trying to compile the copied-and-pasted text onto the emulator, gives a asm Error: Invalid file message. Giancarlo === Subject: Re: SysRPL code from HP48 to 49 series last line in source has to end with a single @ @ Gjermund > Hi all. > On a different forum a guy asked for some help in trying to use a 48GX > program (SysRPL) on a 50G. > > I'm aware about the caveats to be considered in such matters, but, in > my naive understanding, the SysRPL code doesn't seem to contain any > problematic instruction to prevent it from working on a 50G. > > Here follows the code: > > :: > CK1NOLASTWD > CK&DISPATCH1 > real :: > DEFINE EMAS ID ABAJO.F %10 %/ ' ID ABAJO.F DUP PURGE STO ID > ARRIBA.F %1 %+ ' ID ARRIBA.F DUP PURGE STO > DEFINE EMENOS ID ABAJO.F %10 %* ' ID ABAJO.F DUP PURGE STO ID > ARRIBA.F %1 %- ' ID ARRIBA.F DUP PURGE STO > DEFINE MUESTRA ID ABAJO.F %10 xRND DO>STR $ E ID ARRIBA.F > DO>STR &$ &$ > DEFINE FIN ID MENU.F xMENU ' ID ABAJO.F PURGE ' ID ARRIBA.F > PURGE ' ID MENU.F PURGE > DEFINE SIEMENOS ID ABAJO.F % 10000000 % 10000 %* %< > xRCLMENU > ' ID MENU.F STO > DUPDUP > %EXPONENT > SWAP > %MANTISSA > ' ID ABAJO.F > STO > ' ID ARRIBA.F > STO > MUESTRA > { { $ E+ :: EMAS CK1NOLASTWD DROP MUESTRA ; } { $ E- :: > SIEMENOS IT :: EMENOS ; CK1NOLASTWD DROP MUESTRA ; } { } { } { } { $ > E :: FIN CK1NOLASTWD DROP ; } } > xTMENU > ; > ; > > I kindly ask any of you SysRPL Masters :-) to have a look at the > above and try to let me understand (so that I'm able to explain it in > my turn) what are the major roadblocks for using that piece of code on > a 50G. > > By the way, trying to compile the copied-and-pasted text onto the > emulator, gives a asm Error: Invalid file message. > Giancarlo > === Subject: Re: SysRPL code from HP48 to 49 series <9aydnXoKSeCvIWrbRVnzvQA@telenor.com> On 24 Set, 15:31, Gjermund Skailand > > last line in source has to end with a single @ > @ > > Gjermund > Hi Gjermund. Yes, that was missing - but it's not enough.... :-( Same error as before... Giancarlo === Subject: Re: SysRPL code from HP48 to 49 series Hi Giancarlo, Unlike Jazz on the 48, strings should not be preceded with $, as in ... $ E+ ... I'm unfamiliar with the use of the DEFINE structure for on-the-calc (or in the emulator) compiling, so it may or may not also be a problem. But, definitely you should try eliminating the $ prefix for the strings. Chuck === Subject: Re: SysRPL code from HP48 to 49 series <9aydnXoKSeCvIWrbRVnzvQA@telenor.com> Hello! Im that other guy who need help from other forum. I have downloaded that program from hpcalc.org and I want to ask if someone could help to rewrite that program that it would work on the HP-50g. Damjan === Subject: Re: When comand >>but an alternative way on the 83 is to type equation >>and then the condition. >>Ex: Graph y=x+2 for x>5 so you would type y1=x+2(x>5) > > > I think you meant to type y1=(x+2)(x>5). The parentheses around the x > +2 are required to have the effect you want. The x>5 evaluates to > either 1 (true) or 0 (false). This value is then multiplied by x+2 > giving the result x+2 when true and 0 when false. If you turn off the > graph axes (2nd-Format, AxesOff), you'll see that it's actually > graphing 0 when false. A small point: it's better to graph y1=(x+2)/(x>5). Doing it this way means that the function is undefined outside the domain since you are dividing by zero (boolean false). This has the advantage that you do not get the jagged vertical line joining the last defined value to the x axis as you do if the function is going from a defined value of x+2 to being zero. Being undefined, it simply stops. === Subject: Re: When comand <46f7bdba$0$4532$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au> On Sep 24, 3:37 pm, Colin Croft > >>but an alternative way on the 83 is to type equation > >>and then the condition. > >>Ex: Graph y=x+2 for x>5 so you would type y1=x+2(x>5) > > > I think you meant to type y1=(x+2)(x>5). The parentheses around the x > > +2 are required to have the effect you want. The x>5 evaluates to > > either 1 (true) or 0 (false). This value is then multiplied by x+2 > > giving the result x+2 when true and 0 when false. If you turn off the > > graph axes (2nd-Format, AxesOff), you'll see that it's actually > > graphing 0 when false. > > A small point: it's better to graph y1=(x+2)/(x>5). Doing it this way > means that the function is undefined outside the domain since you are > dividing by zero (boolean false). This has the advantage that you do not > get the jagged vertical line joining the last defined value to the x > axis as you do if the function is going from a defined value of x+2 to > being zero. Being undefined, it simply stops. === Subject: Re: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 > I've run into a glich with SDFiler 1.0 > > Earlier this year, there was some discussion about an earlier > version's Invalid Time error that was related to the date format. I > seem to have hit another Invalid Time error with a particular file, > but it happens regardless of the date format. I think it has to do > with the file itself. > > When I use SDINFO, it reports the time-stamp as 17.0460 (notice the 60 > in the seconds field) > Windows reports the time-stamp as 5:04:00 PM > SDFiler exists with Invalid Time when it hits the file > I have found that I can consistently create files with the invalid 60 in the seconds field with the program << 123. 3: TMP STO >> and setting an alarm to run it 1 second before the minute, such as 10:16:59. Works every time. > No doubt, it would be better to make this change in SDLIB instead. or better yet, in the compiler's fsystem library. -wes === Subject: Re: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 > or better yet, in the compiler's fsystem library. I'm not sure the format returned by the fsystem, so it may be best corrected in there. Or the SDLIB wrapper is the culprit. I am not sure as I haven't looked at that for a long long time. Considering I threw the sysRPL part together in about 3-4 hours, I'm pretty happy it works as well as it does. :-) I'd recommend posting that to the hpgcc devel list. If the fsystem is returning a double incorrectly formatted, that might be ther best location to fix it. TW === Subject: Re: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 > > or better yet, in the compiler's fsystem library. > > I'm not sure the format returned by the fsystem, so it may be best > corrected in there. Or the SDLIB wrapper is the culprit. I am not > sure as I haven't looked at that for a long long time. Considering I > threw the sysRPL part together in about 3-4 hours, I'm pretty happy it > works as well as it does. :-) I'd recommend posting that to the hpgcc > devel list. If the fsystem is returning a double incorrectly > formatted, that might be ther best location to fix it. > > TW The problem *has* to be in SDLIB, since there's no 'double' format in a file system (who would pack the time in a 64-bit real number when you only need 3 bytes?). Claudio === Subject: Re: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 > The problem *has* to be in SDLIB, since there's no 'double' format in > a file system (who would pack the time in a 64-bit real number when > you only need 3 bytes?). I stand corrected. There's no 'double' in SDLIB, the conversion is straightforward from integer to BCD, so there's no rounding or any other manipulation of the data. The file system simply reads the timestamp, there's no manipulation of the time whatsoever (I checked the sources of both SDLIB and the file system). Time Format. A FAT directory entry time stamp is a 16-bit field that has a granularity of 2 seconds. Here is the format (bit 0 is the LSB of the 16-bit word, bit 15 is the MSB of the 16-bit word). Bits 0-4: 2-second count, valid value range 0-29 inclusive (0 - 58 seconds). Bits 5-10: Minutes, valid value range 0-59 inclusive. Bits 11-15: Hours, valid value range 0-23 inclusive. Based on the source code, the only way you would get a 60 on the second count is if the bits 0-4 contain the value 30=60/2. This is say clearly valid range=0-29) timestamp, which turns this into another (minor) bug in the calculator's original filesystem. Please check if any files generated by Windows show the same behavior with the timestamp, but I believe it's just a bad behavior in the calculator. Also, please generate several of these files with invalid timestamp and run a CHKDSK on your SD card (from the command line, not the 'windowed' version) to see if CHKDSK reports the invalid timestamp, I bet it does. Also from the first post, Windows seems to discard the invalid 'seconds' field, showing 17:04:00 instead of 17:05:00, which is consistent with having an invalid timestamp. Feel free to modify SDLIB or the filer to ignore this issue if you want (I won't do it by principle... there's nothing to fix if the FS, SDLIB and the SDFILER are behaving correctly according to specifications and reporting the error). Claudio === Subject: Re: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 Using a binary disk editor (and a little help from my old MASM references), I directly examined the timestamps of these files and was able to confirm that the problem is indeed with the files themselves. The STO is definitely creating an invalid time stamp, with fsystem and SDLIB reporting the bits as they are. CHKDSK does detect the invalid timestamp, and optionally fixes them with the current time. > Feel free to modify SDLIB or the filer to ignore this issue if you > want (I won't do it by principle... there's nothing to fix if the FS, > SDLIB and the SDFILER are behaving correctly according to > specifications and reporting the error). You're quite right, in principle. It should be fixed in the ROM. On the other hand, it's always good if software gracefully handles bad values, especially if the only platform that it runs on has a known bug that produces such values. The next best thing would be to have fsystem always produce valid values. (This is what the Visual C++ library does when it reads these invalid timestamps.) In the mean time, changing SDLIB seems like a harmless trivial workaround. But until I figure out how to Make SDLIB, as a stopgap measure, the changed SDFiler will have to do. :-) TW: > Considering I threw the sysRPL part together in about 3-4 hours, > I'm pretty happy it works as well as it does. :-) I'd be happy if I could put something like that together in 3-4 months! :-) into this and so many other projects. You guys are incredible. -wes === Subject: Re: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 In an earlier message, I posted a fix to prevent the SDFiler from crashing when it encounters a bad timestamp: > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > ( > In case the file timestamp has an invalid seconds field such as > 17.0460, as has been know to happen, use MOD 60 on the seconds. > Convert h.mmSS -> h.mmss > ) > DUP ( h.mmSS h.mmSS ) > %2 > TRCXY ( h.mmSS h.mm ) > SWAP ( h.mm h.mmSS ) > % .01 > %MOD ( h.mm 0.00SS ) > % .006 > %MOD ( h.mm 0.00ss ) > %+ ( h.mmss ) > ( end of modifications ) > > TOD>t$ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- The above will indeed fix the problem, but today it occurred to me that there is a much simpler way. How about: %HMS> ( convert possibly badly formated hms to decimal ) %>HMS ( convert back to properly formated hms ) TOD>t$ The %HMS> command handles weirdly formated hh.mmss values and correctly converts them to decimal. The advantage of this second method is that a timestamp of 17.0460 gets converted to 17.0500, which is what the timestamp should have been in the first place. The advantage of the earlier first method is that a timestamp of 17.0460 gets converted to 17.0400, which matches what Windows and Linux both report. -wes === Subject: Re: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 > Using a binary disk editor (and a little help from my old MASM > references), I directly examined the timestamps of these files and was > able to confirm that the problem is indeed with the files themselves. > The STO is definitely creating an invalid time stamp, with fsystem and > SDLIB reporting the bits as they are. > > CHKDSK does detect the invalid timestamp, and optionally fixes them > with the current time. Excellent job. All I said before were mere speculations until now. > > > Feel free to modify SDLIB or the filer to ignore this issue if you > > want (I won't do it by principle... there's nothing to fix if the FS, > > SDLIB and the SDFILER are behaving correctly according to > > specifications and reporting the error). > > You're quite right, in principle. It should be fixed in the ROM. On > the other hand, it's always good if software gracefully handles bad > values... I agree. It's not nice to get an error all the time. In such case you should fix the SDFiler (the one that present the complaints). SDLIB simply reports the number with 60 seconds (I would call that gracefully enough :-), but if you are a perfectionist, go ahead and make SDLIB fix the bad time before reporting it. > especially if the only platform that it runs on has a known > bug that produces such values. Well, the bug is been known since... yesterday!! We had no way of knowing you would have to deal with hundreds of invalid timestamps. In reality, this is a very rare error because the time stamp is only changed by the OS, and usually if the date in the directory entry is corrupted, everything else is damaged too. So having a perfectly valid entry with only a bad date is not so common (and probably deserves being reported so you can chkdsk your card to get it fixed). Of course, if the calc keeps generating these bad entries it can be very annoying. > > The next best thing would be to have fsystem always produce valid > values. (This is what the Visual C++ library does when it reads these > invalid timestamps.) I disagree. If data was corrupted, the FS should *not* touch anything, increasing your chances of advanced data recovery using disk editors. If you start fixing invalid values, you'll end up wiping out data that may belong somewhere else. It happened to me that a hard disk with a severe error was still functional, even booting the OS. Only a couple of files were corrupted but no big deal. Everything was OK until a program offered me to fix my disk and I believed it. The result was almost 80% of the disk was inaccessible, completely wiped out. Lesson learned: always better done by a human. next rom revision. Claudio === Subject: Re: Invalid Time with SDFiler 1.0 > The next best thing would be to have fsystem always produce valid > values. (This is what the Visual C++ library does when it reads these > invalid timestamps.) In the mean time, changing SDLIB seems like a > harmless trivial workaround. But until I figure out how to Make > SDLIB, as a stopgap measure, the changed SDFiler will have to do. :-) Its actually quite easy. If you are running win, install the latest HPGCC, run an update, and build. The library then needs to be exploded on the calc, replace the current hpgcc program with the new one, rebuild the library, and it should be fixed. > > Considering I threw the sysRPL part together in about 3-4 hours, > > I'm pretty happy it works as well as it does. :-) > > I'd be happy if I could put something like that together in 3-4 > months! :-) Well I've been writing sysRPL almost daily since I got a 49G back in 99. I really did this filer interface because I use it in our surveying project (www.pssllc.com) and so I was motivated to do it. :-) In fact, we just hired a programmer to do C development and one of the projects that will be worked on is a completely C file manager. That will be availiable sometime I hope, but I have no idea when. TW === Subject: Periodic Table wanted for HP48GX - possibly on Chemistry Pac expansion card? I'm looking for an expansion card for the 48GX that contains the periodic table. I've heard that I may be obtain one that has it - namely the Chemistry Pac. Can anyone confirm this and does anyone have one they would be willing to part with? I have looked at the HP50 and it does not appear to be an option........yet! Please shoot me an email if you have any helpful information. === Subject: Re: Periodic Table wanted for HP48GX - possibly on Chemistry Pac expansion card? > I'm looking for an expansion card for the 48GX that contains the > periodic table. I've heard that I may be obtain one that has it - > namely the Chemistry Pac. Can anyone confirm this and does anyone > have one they would be willing to part with? > I have looked at the HP50 and it does not appear to be an option... yet! It comes with 50G, or download from: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=6515 Others (48/49/50): http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=periodic+table -=-=-=- === Subject: Re: Periodic Table wanted for HP48GX - possibly on Chemistry Pac expansion card? <46F90351.3070905@nyet.nyet> > > > I'm looking for an expansion card for the 48GX that contains the > > periodic table. I've heard that I may be obtain one that has it - > > namely the Chemistry Pac. Can anyone confirm this and does anyone > > have one they would be willing to part with? > > I have looked at the HP50 and it does not appear to be an option... yet! > > It comes with 50G, or download from:http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=6515 > > Others (48/49/50):http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=periodic+table > > -=-=-=- I'd highly recommend the Chemlib series. I think it has more features and is easier to get data from (with more data) than the Hp table. === Subject: 35 ls ln aus Happy days. Mlck C === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? Hmmm... why won't this compile: :: BINT_245d # 275 setbeep BINT_245d # 18A setbeep BINT_245d # 314 setbeep BINT_245d # 275 setbeep ; @ Keep getting a can't FIND error. Yes, extable2 is installed. >Below are the timings, given for the SysRPL routine =setbeep. > > BINT_245d # 275 setbeep > BINT_245d # 18A setbeep > BINT_245d # 314 setbeep > BINT_245d # 275 setbeep > > >=setbeep expects the duration in seconds_*_1000 in level 2, >and the frequency in level 1 . > >BINT_245d is a constant, the frequencies are given in HEX. > >HTH > >Raymond > > >Mark Wilson schrieb im Newsbeitrag >>I remember seeing a BEEP function that someone had worked out the >> tomes and timing of the 41 BEEP on the 48/19. Anyone have it? I >> can't find it on Hpcalc.org... >> >> >> Mark Wilson >> >> Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail >> >> If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. >> --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery >> >> http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ >> > Mark Wilson Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? > :: > BINT_245d # 275 setbeep > BINT_245d # 18A setbeep > BINT_245d # 314 setbeep > BINT_245d # 275 setbeep > ; > @ why not try: # F5 # 275 setbeep # F5 # 18A setbeep ... (BINT_245d is not in extable2) or in UserRPL : << 629. .245 BEEP 394. .245 BEEP 788. .245 BEEP 629. .245 BEEP >> manjo === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? <2udkf3tuem5ppfv8339mtkcvatr664plg9@4ax.com> > > :: > > BINT_245d # 275 setbeep > > BINT_245d # 18A setbeep > > BINT_245d # 314 setbeep > > BINT_245d # 275 setbeep > > ; > > @ > > why not try: > # F5 # 275 setbeep > # F5 # 18A setbeep > ... > (BINT_245d is not in extable2) > > or in UserRPL : > << > 629. .245 BEEP > 394. .245 BEEP > 788. .245 BEEP > 629. .245 BEEP > > > > manjo Ah, UserRPL: 104 bytes BINT255d version: 45 bytes #F5 Version: 55 bytes Besides, this was, after all, an exercise in SYSRPL... ;) === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? Symbols in Extable beginning with BINT BINT0 BINT1 ... BINT130 BINT131 BINT253 BINT255d BINT40h BINTC0h BINT_65d BINT_91d BINT_96d BINT_115d BINT_116d BINT_122d BINT_130d BINT_131d Raymond may have just assumed a name which isn't actually defined. :: #F5 DUP #275 setbeep DUP #18A setbeep DUP #314 setbeep #275 setbeep ; ( 47.5 bytes ) -=-=-=- === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? > Symbols in Extable beginning with BINT > > BINT0 BINT1 ... BINT130 BINT131 BINT253 BINT255d > BINT40h BINTC0h BINT_65d BINT_91d BINT_96d > BINT_115d BINT_116d BINT_122d BINT_130d BINT_131d > > Raymond may have just assumed a name which isn't actually defined. > Seems the entry in question isn't defined in the 49g series, but it is in the original HP-48;-) Raymond === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? > Seems the entry in question isn't defined in the 49g series, > but it is in the original HP-48 ;-) Where? In augmented tables for the HP Tools on PCs? In the version of Jazz that's in the EduCalc ROM card (rev B), all the symbols beginning with BINT are: BINT253 BINT255d BINT40h BINT80h BINTC0h BINT_65d BINT_91d BINT_96d BINT_115d BINT_116d BINT_122d BINT_130d BINT_131d Jim Donnelly's official HP48 Supported entries list seems to agree: Standard Extable for HP49/50 added BINT0 thru BINT131 to that set (all original HP48 words ZERO thru SIXTYFOUR also remain defined, as are a few more original spelled-out words for other non-consecutive numbers) -=-=-=- === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? Sorry for the confusion, my fault:-) I just checked the references, and found out that a long time ago I had this value (BINT_245d) defined in my standard header file. So to end this: The value BINT_245d is _not_ in the supported entries table... Raymond === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? >> :: >> BINT_245d # 275 setbeep >> BINT_245d # 18A setbeep >> BINT_245d # 314 setbeep >> BINT_245d # 275 setbeep >> ; >> @ > >why not try: ># F5 # 275 setbeep ># F5 # 18A setbeep >... >(BINT_245d is not in extable2) > >or in UserRPL : ><< >629. .245 BEEP >394. .245 BEEP >788. .245 BEEP >629. .245 BEEP >>> > >manjo > I did use f5, but still got an error. I'm just trying to compile a simple SYSRPL program on the 50 so I know I have things installed correctly, and I'm not sure I have the right syntax. For example, BINT_245d does not appear to exist, though BINT255d does. If anybody could actually compile this tiny example, then post what compiled, I'd really appreciate it. Mark Wilson Change .org to .net to reply by e-mail If we lose the war in the air, we lose the war, and we lose it quickly. --Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery http://mysite.verizon.net/modelwerks/ === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? > I did use f5, but still got an error. I'm just trying to compile a > simple SYSRPL program on the 50 so I know I have things installed > correctly, and I'm not sure I have the right syntax. For example, > BINT_245d does not appear to exist, though BINT255d does. > > If anybody could actually compile this tiny example, then post what > compiled, I'd really appreciate it. yes BINT_255d does exist my calculator compiles your example without problems and it works too manjo http://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire | 49G+ | ROM 2.09 | hw serial:CN40213309 | sw serial:CN40701165 | === Subject: Re: Hp-41 BEEP for 48/49/50? <2udkf3tuem5ppfv8339mtkcvatr664plg9@4ax.com> On Sep 26, 10:25 am, manjo > > I did use f5, but still got an error. I'm just trying to compile a > > simple SYSRPL program on the 50 so I know I have things installed > > correctly, and I'm not sure I have the right syntax. For example, > > BINT_245d does not appear to exist, though BINT255d does. > > > If anybody could actually compile this tiny example, then post what > > compiled, I'd really appreciate it. > > yes BINT_255d does exist > > my calculator compiles your example without problems > and it works too > > manjohttp://fly.srk.fer.hr/~manjo/openfire > | 49G+ | ROM 2.09 | hw serial:CN40213309 | sw serial:CN40701165 | What table are you using? I loaded extable2 from the Emacs package, and neither BINT_245d, BINT245d or BINT_255d exist in extable2. BUT, BINT255d does exist. I'm assuming a 2.09 ROM 49+ is identical software wise to a 2.09 ROM 50G, so the difference must be in the table. === The initial speaker schedule has been posted for the HHC2007 HP Conference at Hewlett-Packard's facility in San Diego this weekend. It is jam packed with all kinds of stuff...we may break a record for the most number of presentations at an HP conference. Also, it's looking like the attendance might be as large as double that of last year, which would be spectacular. For a glimpse at the schedule, check http://holyjoe.net/hhc2007/program.html on the web. The conference fee will be around $40.-$50 and each attendee will not only receive a printed copy of the 115-page proceedings (plus whatever additional handouts the speakers may provide), but there will be an assortment of other goodies in the registration packet. Also, be prepared for some surprise goodies at various points later in the weekend. It should be enjoyable. For general conference information, check the conference website at http://holyjoe.net/hhc2007/ . Jake Schwartz === > The initial speaker schedule has been posted for the HHC2007 HP > Conference at Hewlett-Packard's facility in San Diego this weekend. It > is jam packed with all kinds of stuff...we may break a record for the > most number of presentations at an HP conference. Also, it's looking > like the attendance might be as large as double that of last year, > which would be spectacular. For a glimpse at the schedule, checkhttp://holyjoe.net/hhc2007/program.html on the web. > > The conference fee will be around $40.-$50 and each attendee will not > only receive a printed copy of the 115-page proceedings (plus whatever > additional handouts the speakers may provide), but there will be an > assortment of other goodies in the registration packet. Also, be > prepared for some surprise goodies at various points later in the > weekend. It should be enjoyable. For general conference information, > check the conference website athttp://holyjoe.net/hhc2007/. > > Jake Schwartz Hi Jake. Wow, looking at all that stuff I'm really getting sick with envy and regretting not to be able to be there :-(( I only hope that as many docs as possible will be available in some way. Enjoy your conference! Giancarlo === Subject: Picture of the new HP17BII+ It look like the HP 35S. Price in France and in Europe (Germany / Belgium ...) Euros 139 (USD 194) For information the Price in Europe of the current HP 17BII+ is also Euros 139 when in Wall Mart you can find it for USD 85. HP's price policy is a real shame. jajacom === Subject: Re: Picture of the new HP17BII+ > > It look like the HP 35S. > > Price in France and in Europe (Germany / Belgium ...) Euros 139 (USD 194) > For information the Price in Europe of the current HP 17BII+ is also Euros > 139 when in Wall Mart you can find it for USD 85. > > HP's price policy is a real shame. > > jajacom Any one knows if the new version is shipping in the US? (Amazon and Walmart apparently have the old version) === Subject: IR file X-fer HP48GX to Palm T2 and vice versa Hi there, How can files such as HP48 programs be sent via infrared port from PC to Palm and then beamed to HP48GX? Could files such as Exal spreadsheet files be sent from HP48GX to Palm PDA? If this is possible please someone let me know and give me the basic how to.... Muchas gracias!!! === Subject: Re: IR file X-fer HP48GX to Palm T2 and vice versa > Hi there, > > How can files such as HP48 programs be sent via infrared port from PC > to Palm and then beamed to HP48GX? > Could files such as Exal spreadsheet files be sent from HP48GX to Palm > PDA? > If this is possible please someone let me know and give me the basic > how to.... > Muchas gracias!!! I have tried this with no success ... understand that the coding in IR transmition of PDA and HP49/50 is quit different. So if you find the way ... please let me know. ... de nada .... Daniel === Subject: Donnelly's Intro to Hp-48 SYSRPL question This book is out of print, correct? Has Mr. Donnelly ever given permission for it to be digitized and shared electronically? === Subject: Openfire problems on a 50G I am unable to get anything openfire related to work on the 50G (ROM 2.09). I installed the library, but every time I tried to use OFVIEW or the animate features (even the sand demo). my screen went nuts. The only thing I could do was turn the calc off. Is OF 50G compatible? === Sircam strikes again. I've just received a message from tamu.edu. That's a university in Texas, isn't it? If you're reading this, send it again please - I can't read it. Bye. HPCC member #1046 johil@tv3mail.com - -- Would like some feedback on the above Survey ROM cards. Have had some feedback on TDS and SMI but nothing on D'Zign survey card. Does anyone use this card? All replies appreciated. Justin You might want to try the message board at pobonline.com. My coworker had thier downloadable software, not the card. I just remember it being really slow. That may have changed by now. Have a nice day. it's been quite some time, since I last looked into the newsgroup. I also checked if there are new programs for the HP49 and found some nice ones. For the most part I'd now switch to the HP49, but I mostly still use the 48. One reason is that some important programs are missing on the 49. Namely PowerPlot with Table is just nice to have and I miss it :-( Isn't there a programmer with some ML knowledge who likes to try the port of PowerPlot light (as this one is finished and absolutly stable). I really would love that. There have been quite some attempts to port the program (or better said persons who said they wanted to give it a try), but it never got reality until the Beta version by Yoann Desir. I was happy that then PowerPlot would have got ported, but after the Beta the work stopped :-( Are you waiting for me to learn SysRPL/ML? ;-) This might be an option, but I'm sure that it would be _much_ faster programmers would take the challenge :-) On a side note. Too bad that now (I'm just working on my diploma thesis) I don't need a calculator that often. My family is sort of irritated that now there are days, when I don't take my HP48/49 with me ;-) Peter -- Great HP48/49 links: http://www.hpcalc.org http://move.to/hpkb to find *old* postings search: I have had a graph engine for a long while now, coded in SysRPL. It's usually much faster than PowerPlot (compared on my HP48GX). At its worst it mathces the speed of PP, at its best, its at least twenty times faster (rarely). usually it's around 2-3 times faster. For normal functions, a complete plot (131 points) take 0.8-1.2 seconds to plot. Such a normal plot could be of 'SIN(X-1)/(X-1)', 'X^3+2*X-2' or 'LN(1/X-2)' for example. I havent finished a front end for the porgram, but have tried a couple of times - that's the reason nothing is released. I'm pretty sure I've written this here a while back? PowerPlot for the HP49G is definetely a big asset, but the lack of interest just shows how few are actually using the HP49G. The library I've coded that have drawn most attention, is definetely SYMBTOOLZ (which is broken on newer ROM revisions). I have gotten maybe 15-20 different people contacting me about it - most had problems because they didn't read the huge manual. That's too small a user group to motivate. ...and now HP has shut down intelligent calculator development, and thrown away their best guys doing exactly that. It doesn't really help progress here, does it? Will you fix it? Please. X for a new release...soon... 1.2 seconds for 131 calculations of 'SIN(X-1)/(X-1)'..? On a HP48GX? That's pretty incredible, considering that the fastest thing I could think of for computing a single point in sysrpl would look like: :: % .6 %1 %- %SIN % .6 %1 %- %/ ; where .6 would be a hard-coded value of X into the expression. On my 48, TIM produces the result of the above program in 18.5ms. If I multiply that by 131, that would be ~2.42 seconds just to make 131 such calculations, without looping, substituion, error checking, line drawing, and other non-computational stuff associated with graphing something... So you're saying that you can completely plot 131 points of the sample expression 'SIN(X-1)/(X-1)' in half of the absolute minimal time that it takes the HP48 to come up with the 131 results?? Aaron No, I'm doing it on the HP49G. My graph engine is for the '49. I just checked - I use 2.16 seconds to calculate the points, and 0.2 seconds to draw them on screen. non-computational My above timing include this. ... So you're saying that you can half of No, sorry. Not in SysRPL. I'll provide the exact times (add 0.0-0.3 seconds to draw the complete plot): 'SIN(X-1)/(X-1)': 2.16 s. (PP: 5.74 s.) 'X^3+2*X-2': 2.35 s. (PP: 5.90 s.) 'LN(1/X-2)': 0.93 s. (PP: 2.95 s.) '2*X+1': 0.47 s. (PP: 3.42 s.) '(9*X-EXP(X-1000)+8973)^2-X/2': 2.71 s. (PP: 6.95 s.) 'X': 0.00 s. (PP: 2.76 s.) Really hope to see it in actions soon. seconds I'm afarid you won't. I'm not sure, but I think I have only one single program left for release at some point in time. I haven't got any motivation in this regard - the HP company killed the spark in me, doing what they have done lately. 1)', 'X^3+2*X-2' or 'LN(1/X-2)' for example. I am interested!! Now I feel that my HP49G Graphical Calculator is not complete without your graph engine. Santos Lucero I for one am really excited about your program. I understand that HP is quitting development, but HP 49G is one of the best calculator. I really hope more programs from the 48 are ported since the 49G is lacking alittle in 3rd party support. I really hope to see you finish your program, the default plotter is just too slow. it plot written interest [Porting PowerPlot to the HP49] Arggh, some of the best programs are from Raymond. Maybe he would like to make that great port? :-) Peter -- Great HP48/49 links: http://www.hpcalc.org http://move.to/hpkb to find *old* postings search: If someone is wasting BW here, it's definetely you. Stop complaining - it just creates even more BW use. You are quite correct. 0^0 is a singularity. [inf]^[inf], [inf]^0, and 0^[inf] are also. There are a few more that I cannot remember right now. I could send you the calculus proof for this if you want it. Dylan Yes, it is an essential singularity in real or complex arithmetic. But is useful to define 0^0 to be 1 for integer arithmetic. This is covered in the sci.math FAQ, I believe. Scott -- Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu This isn't flying. This is falling, with style. -- Buzz Lightyear And in HP 49G The Integer Math gives ? but the real/complex gives 1. is If you will read carefully, you will note that no one said that the HP49 evaluates 0^0 as 1 , although I think it should. In an evaluation of zero to the power zero, if either, or both, zeros are approximate form( with decimal points) or if the numerical mode is set to approximate, then the evaluation gives 1., with decimal point. Parisse says that this is for compatibility with the 48, which always gives 1. Only when both are exact zeros without decimal points AND the numerical mode is set to exact, does it evaluate to '?'. About the proper meaning of 0^0 outside the HP world, see Concrete Mathematics, or do some Google research. I just purchased a TI-89 calculator. Now before you quit reading, I am a very avid HP-48,49 user and have been for years. I was curious about the functionality of the TI-89 however now that I have two calculators, I am curious on how to use th two. I prefer the HP primarily. For those of you who have both the HP and the TI, which calculator do you use primarily and how do you use the other I use the TI89 to satisfy my curiosness regarding some mathematical aspects. The TI is very fast for some symbolic calculations (Taylor series, although somewhat limited, and summations, integrals, differentiations and so on). The HP49G simply is way to slow to do certain tasks, for example this: spends 19 seconds on the HP49G, but only 8.5 seconds on the TI89. '9*X-EXP(X-1000)+8973' 'X' 1. TAYLR takes forever on the HP49G (must be a bug), while it's calculated instantly on the TI89. In fact, the TI89 can calculate a Taylor series to degree 25 in one second, of the above expression. There a more than a few Taylor series expansions that take forever on the '49. The TI89 do have its limitations too - it can't develop a Taylor series for 'SIN(X)/X+1' for example. I use the latest rom and TEVAL says 7.4142 seconds :-( Right, very strange... Now it finished with an Insufficient Memory error. It must be a bug then... Aaron, I had an 89(a gift from a friend), I just can't get used to NON-RPN calculators. I do alot of numerical computations, and I extensibly use the stack. I could not make myself bring the 89 to work, and it was just sitting there in my desk at home. I finally gave the 89 to my cousin, he is in high school, he LOVES IT! HM PS. My humble opinion is solely based on my experience. Others can have a different view and/or taste. -- Ok, I took it. You can download the new package at http://youpibouh.thefreecat.org/info/prog/down/usinagaz-cur.zip (it is still version 0.2), or on hpcalc.org when it is updated. It now includes wget, which can be used as : http://www.hpcalc.org/ wget