B129 > This is not exactly a 48/49 question, but I was wondering if any of > the HP collectors out there know when HP changed the 17Bii's packaging > from a box to the plastic bubble pack? > I think it was around the time when the 49G was introduced. Note that it came out in blister in the U.S. (and maybe other countries), but in box in Europe. Seems to be similar for other models, like the 17BII. I have some of them made in Indonesia, but all in box, not in blister. My newest 17BII is from 2000. > Also, based on the serial > number or other info can one tell when the unit was manufactured. > See www.hpmuseum.org ==== FEM48 has been updated to version 5.0 and is available through the following link: http://home.hccnet.nl/c.lugtmeier/c.lugtmeier/HP48Fil/Fem48/FEM48v50.zip Please note that this link is only available for a short time. FEM48 will be (is being) ported to the HP49 by Alain Robillard. After the porting is finished the complete package will be published on my web-page and on hpcalc.org. Caspar Lugtmeier Changes: * LCASE module .87 new load case and combinations module .87 now you can save loads as load cases and make combinations of load cases .87 includes updates of FEM48 commands like SAVEFEM2, PGLD2, SCALC2 etc * FEM48 module .87 added temperature loads option with command MLT .87 added display of choice position and choice list length to FBROW browser .87 SCALC now always uses Cholesky solver .87 added recall state of toggle commands (e.g. now BZË sets state and BZ? recalls state) .87 CHOL command removed .87 LCAS command added .87 modified SINFO display .87 added protection for FBROW for large header strings .87 removed autocalculation with SPLOT command (when DFORË is toggled on) .87 added recall state of toggle commands * QUERY module .87 modified NPLT, VPLT, MPLT, UXPLT, RYPLT and UZPLT commands, which make it possible to plot N, V, M, etc lines for more than one member in one plot (handy for continuous beams) .87 now also scrolling along plotted graphs, with displayed values under plot (trace mode) .87 removed batchplot facilities .87 removed QMEM commands, now member provided by user for each command (faster) .87 improved scaling of constant value plots (now in middle of screen) .87 improved reaction to ON (cancel) key .87 added optional tagging of stack results .87 added recall state of toggle commands * WIZRD module .87 added Ix to SED48 link (was only choice of Iy and Iz), order is now: Ix Iy Iz, with default position on Iy .87 bugfix: now Iz selection in SED48 link chooses Iz correctly (was Iy) * PRINT module .87 all non-integers are now displayed using stack format (e.g. 3 ENG) * MOVLD module .87 MOVLD command is now available from the FEM menu (Left-Shift SCALC or SCALC2) .87 now a nullnamed library * Description of FEM48: The FEM48 library uses the Finite Elements Method and is designed to be used for the structural analysis of 2D frames, trusses and (continious) beams. FEM48 is completely written in SysRPL (with some assembly). FEM48 follows a modular approach. You can choose to load only the modules you need. The available modules integrate seamlessly into the FEM48 interface. * Modules: .87 FEM48 module : main library, not optional .87 QUERY module : beam analysis .87 WIZRD module : wizards for structures, section properties and loads .87 PRINT module : rate/print strings of input and/or output .87 MOVLD module : rate moving loads on (continious) beams .87 LCASE module : handle load cases and load case combinations * Main features: .87 extensive manual (READ IT!) .87 modular approach .87 extremely easy to use due to excellent interface .87 supports frames, trusses and (continious) beams .87 load cases and combinations are possible .87 beam analysis (numerical and/or graphical) .87 data can be entered in three (!) ways: 1) using a structure wizard for standard structures 2) using input prompts for structure data 3) assemble data arrays and store them from the stack .87 text file (string) output of input and calculation results .87 (un)deformed structure plots with optional displaying of supports, node numbers, members numbers .87 seven (!) load types, including displacement loads, temperature loads and moving loads .87 configurable matrix viewer/editor (choose your own matrix editor i.e. MATRIX or EDITB with Metakernel) .87 configurable stringviewer (i.e. VV, the author's VIEW library or EDITB with Metakernel) .87 superfast Cholesky matrix solve routine (assembly language) .87 links to an external section database (SED48 v1.2 or higher) .87 file management .87 completely programmable (write your own batch files) ==== Howlong about porting FEM v 5.0 to hp49?. It's the best and very impressive. ==== since I'm in a middle of it, I will answer to that one. Still one library to port and, of course, a little bit of overall checking. I should be already done, but I was sick for the last two weeks. Alain 3278e764.0210050648.258be370@posting.google.com... > Howlong about porting FEM v 5.0 to hp49?. It's the best and very impressive. > Lomt ==== What's your rom version of hp49 ? 1.19-6? I'm glad to hear this good news. Lomt ==== Good to hear. Hanging out for FEM49v50. FEM48 has been updated to version 5.0 and is available through the following > link: > http://home.hccnet.nl/c.lugtmeier/c.lugtmeier/HP48Fil/Fem48/FEM48v50.zip Please note that this link is only available for a short time. FEM48 will be > (is being) ported to the HP49 by Alain Robillard. After the porting is > finished the complete package will be published on my web-page and on > hpcalc.org. Changes: * LCASE module > .87 new load case and combinations module > .87 now you can save loads as load cases and make combinations > of load cases > .87 includes updates of FEM48 commands like SAVEFEM2, PGLD2, > SCALC2 etc * FEM48 module > .87 added temperature loads option with command MLT > .87 added display of choice position and choice list length to > FBROW browser > .87 SCALC now always uses Cholesky solver > .87 added recall state of toggle commands (e.g. now BZË sets > state and BZ? recalls state) > .87 CHOL command removed > .87 LCAS command added > .87 modified SINFO display > .87 added protection for FBROW for large header strings > .87 removed autocalculation with SPLOT command (when DFORË > is toggled on) > .87 added recall state of toggle commands * QUERY module > .87 modified NPLT, VPLT, MPLT, UXPLT, RYPLT and UZPLT commands, > which make it possible to plot N, V, M, etc lines for more > than one member in one plot (handy for continuous beams) > .87 now also scrolling along plotted graphs, with displayed > values under plot (trace mode) > .87 removed batchplot facilities > .87 removed QMEM commands, now member provided by user for each > command (faster) > .87 improved scaling of constant value plots (now in middle of > screen) > .87 improved reaction to ON (cancel) key > .87 added optional tagging of stack results > .87 added recall state of toggle commands * WIZRD module > .87 added Ix to SED48 link (was only choice of Iy and Iz), order > is now: Ix Iy Iz, with default position on Iy > .87 bugfix: now Iz selection in SED48 link chooses Iz correctly > (was Iy) * PRINT module > .87 all non-integers are now displayed using stack format (e.g. > 3 ENG) * MOVLD module > .87 MOVLD command is now available from the FEM menu (Left-Shift > SCALC or SCALC2) > .87 now a nullnamed library > * Description of FEM48: The FEM48 library uses the Finite Elements Method and is designed > to be used for the structural analysis of 2D frames, trusses and > (continious) beams. > FEM48 is completely written in SysRPL (with some assembly). FEM48 follows a modular approach. You can choose to load only the > modules you need. The available modules integrate seamlessly into > the FEM48 interface. * Modules: .87 FEM48 module : main library, not optional > .87 QUERY module : beam analysis > .87 WIZRD module : wizards for structures, section properties > and loads > .87 PRINT module : rate/print strings of input and/or output > .87 MOVLD module : rate moving loads on (continious) beams > .87 LCASE module : handle load cases and load case combinations * Main features: .87 extensive manual (READ IT!) > .87 modular approach > .87 extremely easy to use due to excellent interface > .87 supports frames, trusses and (continious) beams > .87 load cases and combinations are possible > .87 beam analysis (numerical and/or graphical) > .87 data can be entered in three (!) ways: > 1) using a structure wizard for standard structures > 2) using input prompts for structure data > 3) assemble data arrays and store them from the stack > .87 text file (string) output of input and calculation results > .87 (un)deformed structure plots with optional displaying of supports, > node numbers, members numbers > .87 seven (!) load types, including displacement loads, temperature > loads and moving loads > .87 configurable matrix viewer/editor (choose your own matrix editor > i.e. MATRIX or EDITB with Metakernel) > .87 configurable stringviewer (i.e. VV, the author's VIEW library or > EDITB with Metakernel) > .87 superfast Cholesky matrix solve routine (assembly language) > .87 links to an external section database (SED48 v1.2 or higher) > .87 file management > .87 completely programmable (write your own batch files) ==== I have been meaning to ask this. What's a good way of entering cheat notes into a HP48GX with a PC? I always use notepad and saving each without the .txt file extension. Does anyone do differently? How does one enter pictures? ==== > What's a good way of entering cheat notes into a HP48GX ... Better, fair play. ==== > Better, fair play. > how strange, debe tratar de ser mas honesto contigo mismo -- Offical Alt.Hackers.Malicious Survival Guide, FAQ, and Who's Who (Or as rikijo sez, Who dat iz?) http://www.ramalane.com ==== http://www.engr.uvic.ca/~aschoorl/faq ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.sys.hp48/ [old, and where's part 3?] ==== Does this ng have a FAQ? (and no, being the lazy bastard that I am I > didn't check faq.org first). Yes it does. > I've been reading hpcalc.org and I'm trying to avoid asking the really > stupid questions. :o) You're not trying very hard are you? If you really have been reading hpcalc.org you whould have seen the comp.sys.hp48 FAQ under the More files Documentation section It is no longer sent to this newsgroup to save bandwidth. -- ir. P.F.Geelhoed Delft University of Technology Laboratory for Aero & Hydrodynamics Leeghwaterstraat 21, 2628 CA Delft, The Netherlands +31-15-2786656 / +31-15-2782947 (fax) peter@dutw1479.wbmt.tudelft.nl ==== Does any body know if it is possible to do limits with two variables on the 49G running 1.19-6. For example, is it possible to do ëlim((cos(x)+y)/(y-sin(x)),x,y)' I don't know if it is possible, and if it is I don't know how to input the two variables at the end. ==== > Does any body know if it is possible to do limits with two variables > on the 49G running 1.19-6. For example, is it possible to do ëlim((cos(x)+y)/(y-sin(x)),x,y)' I > don't know if it is possible, and if it is I don't know how to input > the two variables at the end. > I forgot to mention as (x,y) -> (pi/2,0) ==== >Does any body know if it is possible to do limits with two variables >on the 49G running 1.19-6. >For example, is it possible to do ‘lim((cos(x)+y)/(y-sin(x)),x,y)' I >don't know if it is possible, and if it is I don't know how to input >the two variables at the end. I forgot to mention as (x,y) -> (pi/2,0) (x,y) -> (pi/2,0) is not a path, it is the final destination of (x,y). You must first now for example how y depends on x (or vice versa) while you approach (pi/2,0). For example such a dependancy could be y=x-pi/2. It defines a straight line on the complex plane (the path). But it could also be y=cos(x) which is a completely different path, but also results in y=0 when x=pi/2. So you have to choose your path. Like real life ==== > Does any body know if it is possible to do limits with two variables > on the 49G running 1.19-6. For example, is it possible to do 'lim((cos(x)+y)/(y-sin(x)),x,y)' I > don't know if it is possible, and if it is I don't know how to input > the two variables at the end. Multivariate limits don't make any sense without the relationship between the variables stated. Commonly speaking, you must know by which path you want the multivariated limit calculated. ==== I am trying to use the FUMO DSP library I found in the HPCALC.ORG website but it requires a password to extract the file from the winrar file, the have not heard from him, does any of you by chance have the password for that winrar file (Fumo0v025)? -- Mariano I Lizarraga ==== I can't mount a DoInputForm simple program !!! It simple doesn't work at all. there's the source: --- :: LABEL ONE TEN ONE ZERO 'DROPFALSE TITLE DoInputForm ; --- I also tryed with fields, but it is known that we can have a InputForm with only a label. I compile it and it don't run at all. *** I SPEND MORE THAT 4 HOURS IN IT, I'm doing certainly all right, but there's no way of this thing to work.. :( ==== You could use one of the Input Form Builders. for the HP-48 from me, and create some simple or even compley forms. Available at www.hpcalc.org Then you'll see that your example has one flaw: A form must consist of at least one label AND one field, aside from the title And don't forget the label count and field count. ric stack diagram for DoInputForm: Labels Fields LblCount FldCount FormProc Title --> ? hth, Renato Jr schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I can't mount a DoInputForm simple program !!! > It simple doesn't work at all. > there's the source: --- > :: > LABEL > ONE > TEN > ONE > ZERO > 'DROPFALSE > TITLE > DoInputForm > ; --- > I also tryed with fields, but it is known that we can have a InputForm > with only a label. > I compile it and it don't run at all. > *** I SPEND MORE THAT 4 HOURS IN IT, I'm doing certainly all right, > but there's no way of this thing to work.. :( ==== Has anyone got any information on weather HP is still in the calculator business? The HPCC Conference this past weekend was to have reps from HP to give the definitive answer to that, but so far no on is saying anything. -- ==== In message , Richard Garner >Has anyone got any information on weather HP is still in the calculator >business? The HPCC Conference this past weekend was to have reps from >HP to give the definitive answer to that, but so far no on is saying >anything. Summarising from the notes I took at HP's presentation: They are still in the calculator business but have only just restarted [so don't expect any great shakes soon]. They have a roadmap for the an updated financial model in Spring '03. New high-end scientific and high-end financial models won't appear until Summer/Autumn '03. They warned that the first product out of the starting gate will be a clone type calculator. Future models would feature unique HP designs. They are definitely calculator focussed rather than PDA + calculator software as this type of product belongs to another division. They acknowledged that RPN is what differentiates their products and they have no intention of dropping it. However algebraic capability has to be there in order to sell at all. A suggestion from the floor was to introduce an RPN 4-banger - something that I have seen requested in this group a number of times. It was backed up by a maths teacher who added that the biggest obstacle in introducing RPN to older students is that they are too set in their ways. A simpler model introduced at an earlier age would do wonders. I can see the logic in this and I think HP do too. They didn't really have a presentation as such beyond the roadmap (+ some ideas about how to reduce supply chain and distribution costs inherent in the old ways of producing and selling calcs) and took questions. My opinion: it looks good - they appear to know what they are doing and have some good guys working in the group (called, incidentally, the Emerging Technologies Group). I am confident that they - as individuals - are in this for the duration, know what calculators are and aren't afraid to make something that they think will be cool for engineers as well as appealing to the mass, i.e. student, market. However, they are still a very small group in a very large company and things can change overnight through no fault of their own. -- ==== What about production quality, which was also a hallmark of HP? I think it would be cool to produce an entry level Scientific/Engineering calculator that is a cross between the 42 and 48 with a 3 or 4 level stack and 2-D graphics -- the multi-line stack display makes learning RPN very easy. > In message , Richard Garner >Has anyone got any information on weather HP is still in the calculator >business? The HPCC Conference this past weekend was to have reps from >HP to give the definitive answer to that, but so far no on is saying >anything. Summarising from the notes I took at HP's presentation: They are still in the calculator business but have only just restarted > [so don't expect any great shakes soon]. They have a roadmap for the > an updated financial model in Spring '03. New high-end scientific and > high-end financial models won't appear until Summer/Autumn '03. They warned that the first product out of the starting gate will be a > clone type calculator. Future models would feature unique HP designs. They are definitely calculator focussed rather than PDA + calculator > software as this type of product belongs to another division. They acknowledged that RPN is what differentiates their products and > they have no intention of dropping it. However algebraic capability has > to be there in order to sell at all. A suggestion from the floor was to introduce an RPN 4-banger - something > that I have seen requested in this group a number of times. It was > backed up by a maths teacher who added that the biggest obstacle in > introducing RPN to older students is that they are too set in their > ways. A simpler model introduced at an earlier age would do wonders. I > can see the logic in this and I think HP do too. They didn't really have a presentation as such beyond the roadmap (+ > some ideas about how to reduce supply chain and distribution costs > inherent in the old ways of producing and selling calcs) and took > questions. My opinion: it looks good - they appear to know what they are doing and > have some good guys working in the group (called, incidentally, the > Emerging Technologies Group). I am confident that they - as individuals > - are in this for the duration, know what calculators are and aren't > afraid to make something that they think will be cool for engineers as > well as appealing to the mass, i.e. student, market. However, they are > still a very small group in a very large company and things can change > overnight through no fault of their own. > -- ==== > What about production quality, which was also a hallmark of HP? I think it > would be cool to produce an entry level Scientific/Engineering calculator > that is a cross between the 42 and 48 with a 3 or 4 level stack and 2-D > graphics -- the multi-line stack display makes learning RPN very easy. > I totally agree !!!! An HP52, same shape and size as the HP42, maybe slightly longer to accommodate a 3-4 stack display. Same quality keyboard, but with a better rechargeable lithium backup than the HP42. 2-way IR and 4-pin serial port. 128kb memory. Same User-RPL as the 48/49, or keystroke programming option. Inexpensive. That sort of calculator would be terrific. ==== > I totally agree !!!! An HP52, same shape and size as the HP42, maybe slightly longer to > accommodate a 3-4 stack display. Same quality keyboard, but with a > better rechargeable lithium backup than the HP42. 2-way IR and 4-pin > serial port. 128kb memory. Same User-RPL as the 48/49, or keystroke > programming option. Inexpensive. That sort of calculator would be terrific. Uhmm.... for a sophisticated calculator with several screen lines I'm very happy with my 48GX. With sophisticated I mean RPL programing, many many commands, graphics, etc... Many time and efforts for learning the calculator and developing sofware. I would like a classic only numeric RPN scientific calculator like 15c (keystroke programming)... There is no accounting for tastes... ==== > An HP52, same shape and size as the HP42, maybe slightly longer to > accommodate a 3-4 stack display. Same quality keyboard, but with a > better rechargeable lithium backup than the HP42. 2-way IR and 4-pin > serial port. 128kb memory. Same User-RPL as the 48/49, or keystroke > programming option. Inexpensive. That sort of calculator would be terrific. Having 3-4 stack it seems a hp48 (more or less) so, yes, it is a terrific calculator :-) Anyway, I am agree that a hp52 (updated hp42s) would be a great machine.. Let's see what hp9s and 9g offer... J.Manrique Users Club from Gij.97n http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu #1077 HPCC Member http://www.hpcc.org ==== If your going to have the 48/49 User-RPL I'd keep the dynamic stack. I could do without the 48/49 graphing display if it had the HP42 formfactor and keyboard. Stephen.N >What about production quality, which was also a hallmark of HP? I think it >would be cool to produce an entry level Scientific/Engineering calculator >that is a cross between the 42 and 48 with a 3 or 4 level stack and 2-D >graphics -- the multi-line stack display makes learning RPN very easy. > I totally agree !!!! An HP52, same shape and size as the HP42, maybe slightly longer to > accommodate a 3-4 stack display. Same quality keyboard, but with a > better rechargeable lithium backup than the HP42. 2-way IR and 4-pin > serial port. 128kb memory. Same User-RPL as the 48/49, or keystroke > programming option. Inexpensive. That sort of calculator would be terrific. ==== Something along the lines of the HP27 (I think) would be good. ==== I have my apprehensions about their introduction of an updated financial calculator. Update what? The 10BII? Why, when they just introduced it a year ago. The 19BII? Perhaps, since that case & parts must be getting difficult to make and obtain. The HP-12C? Do they really want an uproar from the financial community over this? I don't think so. Perhaps kill off the 10BII and the 19BII entirely and come out with a low end model that can actually compete against the excellent TI BAII Plus (for $30 the thing even does hyperbolic trigs!) and also come out with a different higher end model. Mistakes to avoid...these would signal, IMO, that HP has learned NOTHING from their past mistakes... 1) Do not introduce a business calculator unless it has the ability to evaluate 1+2x3 to be equal to 7, without parentheses. HP must put an AOS mode rather than just chain logic on any algebraic calculator. Parentheses are not enough. Make this mistake and it will sell very poorly. 2) Do not skimp on features and functions. Include trig. Include combinations/permutations. Even on the low end calculator. Come out with a low end financial that will actually COMPETE with the BAII Plus or my suggestion would be...don't bother. Why waste your time coming out with a $40 calculator that does much less than the $30 TI model? -- * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * * but I own them. * > In message , Richard Garner >Has anyone got any information on weather HP is still in the calculator >business? The HPCC Conference this past weekend was to have reps from >HP to give the definitive answer to that, but so far no on is saying >anything. Summarising from the notes I took at HP's presentation: They are still in the calculator business but have only just restarted > [so don't expect any great shakes soon]. They have a roadmap for the > an updated financial model in Spring '03. New high-end scientific and > high-end financial models won't appear until Summer/Autumn '03. They warned that the first product out of the starting gate will be a > clone type calculator. Future models would feature unique HP designs. They are definitely calculator focussed rather than PDA + calculator > software as this type of product belongs to another division. They acknowledged that RPN is what differentiates their products and > they have no intention of dropping it. However algebraic capability has > to be there in order to sell at all. A suggestion from the floor was to introduce an RPN 4-banger - something > that I have seen requested in this group a number of times. It was > backed up by a maths teacher who added that the biggest obstacle in > introducing RPN to older students is that they are too set in their > ways. A simpler model introduced at an earlier age would do wonders. I > can see the logic in this and I think HP do too. They didn't really have a presentation as such beyond the roadmap (+ > some ideas about how to reduce supply chain and distribution costs > inherent in the old ways of producing and selling calcs) and took > questions. My opinion: it looks good - they appear to know what they are doing and > have some good guys working in the group (called, incidentally, the > Emerging Technologies Group). I am confident that they - as individuals > - are in this for the duration, know what calculators are and aren't > afraid to make something that they think will be cool for engineers as > well as appealing to the mass, i.e. student, market. However, they are > still a very small group in a very large company and things can change > overnight through no fault of their own. > -- ==== Bruce Horrocks escribi.97 en el mensaje > They warned that the first product out of the starting gate will be a > clone type calculator. Future models would feature unique HP designs. Can you explain me this a little? ==== In message , R Lion Bruce Horrocks escribi.97 en el mensaje > They warned that the first product out of the starting gate will be a >> clone type calculator. Future models would feature unique HP designs. >Can you explain me this a little? We all know that the HP-6S is a clone of a Texet Albert or whatever it's called. This is because they are made by the same no-name company in China that contracts to make them for Texet and HP. I'm told that if you take them apart, even the circuit board labelling is the same. The first new model will be produced in a similar way - i.e. non-exclusively so you could see virtually identical models on sale under someone else's name. However, HP realise that this is not the way to go. So future high-spec models will be manufactured under contract but exclusively to HP and more to HP's design. This is what I describe as being HP unique. -- ==== Bruce Horrocks escribi.97 en el mensaje > I didn't know that about the 6s. (Really, I know nothing about algebraic hp calculators...) so now, I understand your previous post. I'm one of those that hope a new good numeric RPN calculator from hp. ==== X > an updated financial model in Spring '03. New high-end scientific and > high-end financial models won't appear until Summer/Autumn '03. They warned that the first product out of the starting gate will be a > clone type calculator. Future models would feature unique HP designs. They are definitely calculator focussed rather than PDA + calculator > software as this type of product belongs to another division. They acknowledged that RPN is what differentiates their products and > they have no intention of dropping it. However algebraic capability has > to be there in order to sell at all. X Well - a dull Xmas then :-( It seems that my sources have been drained. The high-end model info release at this early stage was a shock to me, but it seems that we have to wait almost a year for the good new RPN/ALG models to appear. Nothing earth shaking, but I'm gonna buy a new financial model then... Veli-Pekka ==== > The high-end model info release at this early stage > was a shock to me, but it seems that we have to wait almost a year > for the good new RPN/ALG models to appear. Well, scientific and financial ones. No mention of any graphing calcs? Almost a year - you know how the HP49G software was, when released? Almost a year is NOT enough time to develop an advanced calculator from scratch. > Nothing earth shaking, but I'm gonna buy a new financial model then... Not me. I've had it with HP - they ditch the ACO, just to start the ETG? Right... ==== << Almost a year - you know how the HP49G software was, when released? Almost a year is NOT enough time to develop an advanced calculator from scratch. >> Well,i hope that they have started to work on those calculators since over a year. Additionnaly,as they don't have to use the overarchaic saturn CPU,i hope that they would use a CPU powerful enough to enable C/C++ developpement. I wonder what O.S they will use. << > Nothing earth shaking, but I'm gonna buy a new financial model then... Not me. I've had it with HP - they ditch the ACO, just to start the ETG? Right... >> Apparently and it is very sad. I hope that the ETG is as skilled as the ACO. However,i doubt that any team could be as dedicated as the ACO. ==== > I hope that the ETG is as skilled as the ACO. > However,i doubt that any team could be as dedicated as the ACO. Based on the talk they gave, and their answers to audience questions, I think they'll be just as dedicated as ACO. It remains to be seen how skilled they are. But the big problem is the size of the team. HP's gone from over a thousand people working on calculators (Corvallis), to a hundred (ACO), to perhaps ten (ETG). Even if they had the best ten engineers on the planet, it would be hard for them to match HP's past accomplishments in a reasonable amount of time. On the other hand, it is definitely true that there exist much better development and debugging tools now than in the past, especially if they use a mainstream processor instead of something proprietary, so engineering can be a fair bit more productive. I'm certainly hoping that they make some great products, but I'm also retaining a fair bit of skepticism. ==== It seems these are all dreams. Nice ones, I have to admit. In another posting from today it was stated that for future calcs, HP only specifies the design. The inner values like Hardware, Operating System, etc. are provided by some Chinese company. There seems to be a chance not to drop RPN, but I wouldn't bet on it BTW: I wouldn't take the 49G keyboard layout as template. The 42S, and especially the 17BII showed how a perfect keyboard layout can be in mid-range calcs. For high-end ones I'd prefer the layout of the HP-48GX. It's more natural for RPN calc users. Timit.8e Hassan schrieb im Newsbeitrag > << > Almost a year - you know how the HP49G software was, when released? > Almost > a year is NOT enough time to develop an advanced calculator from > scratch. > > Well,i hope that they have started to work on those calculators since > over a year. > Additionnaly,as they don't have to use the overarchaic saturn CPU,i > hope that they would use a CPU powerful enough to enable C/C++ > developpement. > I wonder what O.S they will use. << >Nothing earth shaking, but I'm gonna buy a new financial model then... Not me. I've had it with HP - they ditch the ACO, just to start the > ETG? > Right... > > Apparently and it is very sad. > I hope that the ETG is as skilled as the ACO. > However,i doubt that any team could be as dedicated as the ACO. ==== >Well, scientific and financial ones. No mention of any graphing calcs? There was - it was only me being not very precise as I was using scientific to mean graphing as well. The Aug '03 scientific releases will be graphing calcs aimed at students. (One less capable, one more capable. They didn't say exactly what the differentiator would be but high-school versus college seems a reasonable guess.) -- ==== all ACO personnel to the ETG? Part of the initial trouble, I have been led to believe, that ACO encountered was starting a great deal from scratch. Why will ETG be any different? -- * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * * but I own them. * > Not me. I've had it with HP - they ditch the ACO, just to start the ETG? > Right... ==== > all ACO personnel to the ETG? When you don't know what to do, reorganize. It keeps people busy and fools the stockmarket, for a while. --tim ==== I think the reason the ACO was canned was because they said they knew what the consumer wanted and then failed to deliver. When HP got the complaints, they had to do something to make things right. If I wanted a TI look/work-a-like (Clone), I would buy a TI. I don't, I want an HP in the tradition, standard and reliability of an HP, that is what the consumer wants. You can't sell calculators like sneakers. Changing the color, making it out of cheap parts and making it look like your competitor is not the way to treat loyal consumers or to get new one and keep them. move >all ACO personnel to the ETG? When you don't know what to do, reorganize. It keeps people busy and > fools the stockmarket, for a while. --tim > ==== Hard to argue with this, I'm afraid. The designers can say all they want about how TI succeeds with this type of calculator look, but apparently HP consumers do not want this, or at least, the TI consumers HP tried to appeal to do not want an HP that looks like the TI they really want. Still think several things sealed this fate and wonder if the new folks will fix it or suffer the same way... 1) Pitiful documentation 2) Buggy initial release 3) Physical packaging (keyboard type, screen cover scratchiness, etc.) Your statement If I wanted a TI look/work-a-like (Clone), I would buy a TI says it all. HP don't make this mistake again! Please. -- * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * * but I own them. * > I think the reason the ACO was canned was because they said they knew what > the consumer wanted and then failed to deliver. When HP got the complaints, > they had to do something to make things right. If I wanted a TI > look/work-a-like (Clone), I would buy a TI. I don't, I want an HP in the > tradition, standard and reliability of an HP, that is what the consumer > wants. You can't sell calculators like sneakers. Changing the color, > making it out of cheap parts and making it look like your competitor is not > the way to treat loyal consumers or to get new one and keep them. move >> all ACO personnel to the ETG? > When you don't know what to do, reorganize. It keeps people busy and >fools the stockmarket, for a while. > --tim ==== > I think the reason the ACO was canned was because they said they knew what > the consumer wanted and then failed to deliver. When HP got the complaints, They really knew what market wanted, and they sucess in the software side. Hardware is other world, and knowing the resources ACO had, they had done a good job. If you see PCX photos, you would see one of Avenard talking... Look it carefully: - No papers - No computer - Just he and his brain Well, he was talking about hp49 keyboard.. Imagine the situation, Avenard talking about one of the most criticized part of hp49 calculator to a group of advanced users... It was like seeing someone in the mouth of the wolf, and he explained a lot of details of why is that way instead of the classic way. Complaints should go to HP, not ACO. There is one thing to remember, Avenard and other ACO members, were/are always puting his face here like braves, something that HP has never done, and it was HP who limited resources and time, not ACO. > they had to do something to make things right. If I wanted a TI > look/work-a-like (Clone), I would buy a TI. I don't, I want an HP in the Maybe, but it was HP managers who ordered ACO to make TI clones. First ACO project ordered by HP was a TI83 clone... > tradition, standard and reliability of an HP, that is what the consumer > wants. You can't sell calculators like sneakers. Changing the color, > making it out of cheap parts and making it look like your competitor is not > the way to treat loyal consumers or to get new one and keep them. Yes, maybe, but competitor is making money with its cheap and cool look like machines... and companies are here to make money. You can think about it like having two target markets: - Mass market: people is not using calculators the way they were used 10-20 years ago. Now people see calculators as a toy. Of course, once you begin discovering its habilities you can discovered a new world. Since computers are getting cheaper, calculators are losing the use they have in the past. So, you have to redefine its use. Calculators need to look cool to atract market, and once they began to use it, they will discover its potential. - Adavanced users: yes, most of clasical users, and people that use its calculator in a professional way. But, how many are they? How many of the new engineers continue using his calculator as professional tool or just buy a laptop? How may engineers buy a calculator as a tool? I speak from my point of view, seeing what happen at my university and engineers I know. Almost none buy a calculator after ending their studies, most of them buy a laptop (or handheld pc). Most of them continue using the calc they bought at university, but not as hard as they did at university... So we have two main markets: - Young people and students: looking for a cool calc. And this is the big market, so the one that gives more money. Would you do a super-calc hard to use? Many people I know say that hp49 is difficult to use because it has a lot of keys!!! And I know peole (Avenard, you met one of them at Polish Club dinner) that said that hp49 keyboard is much better than hp48 one... why? Because it is their first calculator, they don't compare with the past, they doesn't mind what HP has done in the past, they mind what their machine do and how. - Advanced and professional market: looking for a super-hp41cx machine. This is smaller market, and it is getting smaller each day, since new laptops and handheld computers are a relative cheap option for professionals. Would you buy a hp49 when for similar price you could buy a low cost Palm or PocketPC and run an emulator on it (or some emulators) and do much more things than in a calc??? With this thoughts I have my own idea of how future should go: - Cheap and cool calcs for students, in the hp40g and hp42s way: so HP could offer a good product for mass market. - Advanced handheld computers designed for professional use, just to atract new market to them, something like a Scientific Digital Assistant or similar: so HP could grow in professional handhelds market. just my own mad ideas.. Have fun, J.Manrique Users Club from Gijon http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu #1077 HPCC Member http://www.hpcc.org ==== If HP ever wants to succeed in the student calculator market then i suggest that they design 3 calculators: *A RPN/ALG to directly compete with the TI83+(let's call it the HP37). Besides a more powerful hardware(more RAM/Flash ROM,higher resolution screen,faster CPU) and RPN,it should have the following features to be fully superior to the TI83+: -Easier/better interface:Pretty Print display,clipboard,built-in help online,characters table,clock,etc... -Built-in programs such as Mendeliev table,units conversion,etc... -Better keyboard layout *2 advanced RPN/Alg scientific calculator to succeed to the HP49,one with CAS(let's call it HP51) and the other without(let's call it HP50). They should have much more powerful hardware than the TI89: -Much more powerful CPU(underclocked xscale or any other low power 32/64 bits CPU) -Much more memory -Better keyboard layout(the HP49 one would be perfect) and of course plastic keys Both models should bring significant improvements over existing high end models as well as having most of their features enhanced and built-in. They could have for example much more advanced 3D plotting with real time 3D rotation and zoom for all 3D modes,additionnal 3D modes(statistic,implicit f(x,y,z)=0,etc...) and off course 3D surfaces intersection,etc... They could also have native arbitrary accuracy floating point maths along with fixed floating point maths for number crunching. Both should have several numeric methods for integrations. And finally they should have a complete built-in spreadsheet like apps(with support for CAS commands on the HP51) The HP51 CAS must be more powerful(have more/enhanced features) than TI89 CAS for almost everything and must be also faster and most of the times much faster. Of course those 3 calculators should have high quality/reliability and good documentation including RPN tutorial. The HP37 should sell at almost the same price as the TI83+. The HP50 should sell at almost the TI89 price. The HP51 could afford to be a bit more expensive than the TI89. Now last but not least,it is good to have great products but it is even better to have also great marketing. In US,i suggest that the marketing focus at first on the HP50 and especially on the fact that it is an advanced scientific calculator without CAS thus allowed to exams where the TI89 is banned. Once,the HP50 would show itself as a valuable alternative for the TI89 for many maths/science students then marketing can focus on HP37 as an alternative for TI83+ and the HP51 as a CAS calculator alternative for the TI89. Outsides,U.S those calculators should have less troubles to sell if they are cleary superior to TI/Casio products while being as cheap. ==== > Many people I know say that hp49 is difficult to use > because it has a lot of keys!!! Perhaps all those people would have bought an Expander, then (or Calypso?) Why so many false starts? Projects which are never completed are also R&D drains, aren't they? Was it ever mentioned whose idea those products were, who killed them, and why? Might they resurface in the next incarnation of the HP group? > - Cheap and cool calcs for students, in the hp40g and hp42s way: so > HP could offer a good product for mass market. - Advanced handheld computers designed for professional use, just to > atract new market to them, something like a Scientific Digital > Assistant or similar: so HP could grow in professional handhelds > market. just my own mad ideas.. Why not? ((o)) . ==== > Many people I know say that hp49 is difficult to use >> because it has a lot of keys!!! Perhaps all those people would have bought an Expander, then >(or Calypso?) The Xpander has lots of keys, although they aren't special purpose keys. Note that the Xpander is not a calculator; it's a learning tool. >Why so many false starts? Projects which are never completed >are also R&D drains, aren't they? As Wally once told his PHB, only one in ten R&D projects succeeds, so why not cancel the other nine and save money. Sincerely, Bob Corbett ==== >Why so many false starts? Projects which are never completed >are also R&D drains, aren't they? As Wally once told his PHB, only one in ten R&D projects > succeeds, so why not cancel the other nine and save money. > To stay in the picture: HP didn't cancel nine out of ten, they cancelled all ten and pulled the plug off the base. ==== Well everybody here seems to talk about potential fiture new HP graphic calculators.. But I wonder when we may read from HP (new EMT team/ex-ACO) an official post www.jadeware.org Hellstern <.Hellstern@T-Online.de> a .8ecrit dans le message >Why so many false starts? Projects which are never completed >>are also R&D drains, aren't they? > As Wally once told his PHB, only one in ten R&D projects >succeeds, so why not cancel the other nine and save money. > To stay in the picture: > HP didn't cancel nine out of ten, > they cancelled all ten and pulled the plug off the base. > ==== > The Xpander has lots of keys, although they aren't special > purpose keys. Note that the Xpander is not a calculator; > it's a learning tool. Yeah, yeah, just like the Voyage 200 PLT. Marketing term :-) -- Bhuvanesh ==== > Many people I know say that hp49 is difficult to use > because it has a lot of keys!!! Aha, that's why this spruce goose model also never flew, either forwards or backwards: http://209.197.117.170/item/hp68wx.jpg Nice work, though! (by Ernie Malaga, I believe) ((o)) . ==== The ACO software team (JYA, CdB, BP, MH, GS,...) was never responsible of the HW decisions nor the marketing and/or sales. The same stupid decision makers REMAIN at HP 1)Corvallis 2)ACO 3) the current calc unit will go down the drain the same HP Way as the earlier. Don't blame ACO, blame the Carly clones that the she-devil has hired to get mooore profit in the most short-sighted manner possible: Cut the Research&Development !! How was it BC? (Before Carly) Veli-Pekka - still very >:-( > I think the reason the ACO was canned was because they said they knew what > the consumer wanted and then failed to deliver. When HP got the complaints, > they had to do something to make things right. If I wanted a TI > look/work-a-like (Clone), I would buy a TI. I don't, I want an HP in the > tradition, standard and reliability of an HP, that is what the consumer > wants. You can't sell calculators like sneakers. Changing the color, > making it out of cheap parts and making it look like your competitor is not > the way to treat loyal consumers or to get new one and keep them. move >> all ACO personnel to the ETG? > When you don't know what to do, reorganize. It keeps people busy and >fools the stockmarket, for a while. > --tim ==== > Perhaps, but I doubt there really are any in the stockmarket that care at > all about whether HP makes calculators or not. Oh yes, obviously. But the reorganisation of calculators is just a peripheral effect of the reorganisation of everything else. ==== The financial news I heard yesterday on the radio noted that HP stock went up; not because they announced the release of a new product with great market potential, but rather because they announced a round of lay-offs. What's wrong with this picture? (laid off in the USA) > Perhaps, but I doubt there really are any in the stockmarket that care at > all about whether HP makes calculators or not. -- > * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * > * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * > * but I own them. * > move >> all ACO personnel to the ETG? > When you don't know what to do, reorganize. It keeps people busy and >fools the stockmarket, for a while. > --tim ==== Nothing is wrong with this picture, in and of itself. If there were, then presumably the stock price should go up if they hired 500,000 more workers? As tough as it is when someone is laid off, companies often have to restructure to cut costs. Profit is the difference between sales and expenses. You can influence that number by increasing sales, but expense reduction is a necessary part of the world too. I do wish you personally the best in your tough circumstances. Laying off workers should be something of last resort and I would tend to agree many cut first and ask questions later. Sympathetically, -- * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * * but I own them. * > The financial news I heard yesterday on the radio noted that HP stock went > up; not because they announced the release of a new product with great > market potential, but rather because they announced a round of lay-offs. > What's wrong with this picture? (laid off in the USA) > Perhaps, but I doubt there really are any in the stockmarket that care at >all about whether HP makes calculators or not. -- >* All opinions herein expressed are mine and * >* mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * >* but I own them. * > not >move >>all ACO personnel to the ETG? >When you don't know what to do, reorganize. It keeps people busy and >> fools the stockmarket, for a while. >--tim > > ==== What I think most employers fail to see is that the worker is the subject of his work, not the object. People are, by mandate of natural law, entitled to employment and not to be treated like *things* to be discarded at the transitory whims of management. It is a matter of morality and social responsibility given that the loss of a single job has an impact on more than share holder value. These matters need to thought out more deeply. Carly, and the top management of HP, have trashed the HP Way and destroyed all the vestiges that once made that company great. For this, my next printer will not likely be an HP. I vote with my feet. Greg > Nothing is wrong with this picture, in and of itself. If there were, then > presumably the stock price should go up if they hired 500,000 more workers? As tough as it is when someone is laid off, companies often have to > restructure to cut costs. Profit is the difference between sales and > expenses. You can influence that number by increasing sales, but expense > reduction is a necessary part of the world too. I do wish you personally the best in your tough circumstances. Laying off > workers should be something of last resort and I would tend to agree many > cut first and ask questions later. Sympathetically, > -- > * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * > * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * > * but I own them. * >The financial news I heard yesterday on the radio noted that HP stock went >up; not because they announced the release of a new product with great >market potential, but rather because they announced a round of lay-offs. >What's wrong with this picture? > (laid off in the USA) >Perhaps, but I doubt there really are any in the stockmarket that care > at >> all about whether HP makes calculators or not. > >-- >> * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * >> * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * >> * but I own them. * > not >> move >>> all ACO personnel to the ETG? >>> When you don't know what to do, reorganize. It keeps people busy and >>fools the stockmarket, for a while. >>> --tim >> > ==== > People are, by mandate of natural law, entitled > to employment and not to be treated like *things* to be discarded at the > transitory whims of management. Which natural law is that? Never heard of it. People don't have any *right* to employment. If there was such a right, that would mean that other people don't have a right to choose who they want to hire, or whether to hire anyone at all. You can't arbitrarily grant some right such as employment to some people without taking away rights from other people (or the same people). How many people do *you* employ? Why don't you hire more? Aren't you subject to your own natural law? If you want to argue about what natural rights people have regarding employer/employee relations, I would suggest that the appropriate right is freedom of association by mutual consent. If Alice and Bob both agree that one should work for the other, that's fine. But if Alice wants Bob to work for her, and Bob does not wish to do so, Alice has no right to compell Bob to do so. If Alice does not want Bob to work for her, Bob has no right to compell Alice to hire him. Any such right that you might propose amounts to slavery. > Carly, and the top management of HP, have trashed the HP Way and > destroyed all the vestiges that once made that company great. On this, we can agree. > For this, my next > printer will not likely be an HP. I vote with my feet. More to the point, you're voting with your wallet. That's the only form of voting by customers to which a company pays much attention. ==== Eric Smith of brouhaha.com [more later about this name]: > People don't have any *right* to employment. > If there was such a right, > that would mean that other people don't have a right > to choose whom they want to hire, or whether to hire anyone at all. > You can't arbitrarily grant some right such as employment > to some people without taking away rights from other people. Ever hear of a country called Japan? Not so long ago, it was the established custom in that country, regarding the association between a company and those it selected to join its family that they would stick together through thick and thin, like other families; if the company suffered a setback, then all would work longer hours, or all would take a modest pay reduction, *including* its *management*, like tightening one's belt and going on a diet, rather than arbitrarily chopping off a limb here and there. Management also held itself to be responsible to everyone, to those who directly produced its fortunes and staked their livelihoods and careers on it, as well as to those who only traded its stock. But now that Japan's far older cultural heritage is infected with the diseases carried in from more spiritually bankrupt areas such as the USA, they too can enjoy the same fate. Bill Hewlett and David Packard were enlightened and visionary people, as were Thomas J. Watson and W. Edwards Deming; better look for some more of this quality if you want to live in a more decent world. Actually, it is more necessary, in the stupid system of democracy where everyone's voice supposedly counts the same, to have the entire population's consciousness raised to this level, but looking around this newsgroup doesn't give one much hope for that. Of course, this group is just an average sample of the entire population, which is what is especially scary. Some have the wisdom to look around for worthy mentors, and to listen and learn from them, perhaps to become the same once they've grown into masters in their own right; others think that the freedom to spout anything that comes out of their mouth is the legacy that their forbears really wanted to leave them, which must cause some of their souls to be rolling over in their graves, wondering whether it was a complete waste to *mutually* pledge to *each*other* (and to posterity) their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. -[]- http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=brouhaha brouhaha 1: loud confused noise from many sources [syn: hubbub, uproar] 2: a confused disturbance far greater than its cause merits. http://www.brouhaha.com/brouhaha.html [smart humor, at least] No Microsoft software was used in the making of this web site. Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut? No, and would you buy opinions from people whose minds are welded shut? . ==== > Eric Smith of brouhaha.com [more later about this name]: > People don't have any *right* to employment. >If there was such a right, >that would mean that other people don't have a right >to choose whom they want to hire, or whether to hire anyone at all. > You can't arbitrarily grant some right such as employment >to some people without taking away rights from other people. Ever hear of a country called Japan? Not so long ago, it was the established custom in that country, It was a societal custom, It was never a law. either natural, un-natural or statutory. Moreover, I do not believe that it existed as strong custom until after the Second World War. > But now that Japan's far older cultural heritage is infected > with the diseases carried in from more spiritually bankrupt > areas such as the USA, they too can enjoy the same fate. So when are you moving there? >Actually, it is more necessary, in the stupid system of > democracy where everyone's voice supposedly counts the same, > to have the entire population's consciousness raised to this level, > but looking around this newsgroup doesn't give one much hope for that. Ahh, so democracy is stupid, because it does not accord you the adulation and respect which you think your towering intellectual capabilities should bring to you? > Of course, this group is just an average sample of the > entire population, which is what is especially scary. But you of course, are smarter than all of us? So much smarter, possible theses which may apply in this circumstance: 1) You are one of the staff of your ivory tower. Your contempt for democratic principles is one of the things you attempt to instill in your students. As a symptom of your wooly-headedness, I assume that you have never met a leftist, marxist, terrorist or utopianist with whose principles you disagreed, no matter how bloodthirsty. PolPot is one of your heroes. Unfortunately, you are tenured and therefore impossible to treat with the respect your principles deserve. 2) Even more scary, you are one of the students, and you have been brainwashed by a 'teacher' of the sort described in paragraph 1. Fortunately, I will never be faced with the possibility of hiring you. And scariest of all, if you are the person in paragraph 2, you will one of the ration providing the politicians of the future. You will make Al Gore look like a deep thinker. > Some have the wisdom to look around for worthy mentors, > and to listen and learn from them, perhaps to become the same > once they've grown into masters in their own right; others > think that the freedom to spout anything that comes out of their > mouth is the legacy that their forbears really wanted to leave them, > which must cause some of their souls to be rolling over in their > graves, wondering whether it was a complete waste to *mutually* > pledge to *each*other* (and to posterity) their lives, > their fortunes, and their sacred honor. Let's go back to some basic principles: Those who do not know are ignorant. Those who do not remember what they have been taught, are stupid. Since you seem to know something about 'the freedom to spout' it is clear that you are not ignorant. Therefore you are in the other class. The legacy which our (common) forebears really wanted to leave us, was the right to be able to speak. Whether or not we spoke shit, trivialities of gossip or profound truths was irrelevant, because those speeches would be treated with the respect they deserved, by the bystanders who were listening at the time. And especially those speeches were not to be judged by some unknown secret service agent who might later decide that those thoughts were 'impure' or worse that they presaged some intent to do some 'improper' act in the future (see Minority Report). Regarding 'their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honour', I suggest you go and read the Federalist Papers respecting 'free speech'. Regarding 'their lives', I suggest that you re-read the Gettysberg Address, carefully, and ponder deeply about the events and motivations to which Abraham Lincoln was referring, especially the ending words of the first sentence .....dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. > and would you buy opinions > from people whose minds are welded shut? Nope, I won't from you because it appears that your mind *is* welded shut. The saying is that 'wisdom comes with age'. But sometimes wisdom comes alone. R. Geoffrey Newbury ==== jhm> Not so long ago, it was the established custom in that country, rgn> It was a societal custom, It was never a law. I said it was a custom; you agree it was a custom. I never said it was a law; you go off on a tangent about > Ahh, so democracy is stupid, because it does not accord you... There you go again, off on a direction of your own, inventing nonsense about me instead of offering something of your own personal contribution that you might want the group to consider and to learn by. I very deliberately chose what I said, and I am quite sure of its deepest meaning. There is no significantly structured organization, from small family to the largest nation, from single storefront to largest multinational corporation, from sports team to army, which gives every person an equal vote (or any vote) on practically anything, but this has little to do with the quality of each organization. These organizations can function very well and for their members' mutual benefit if they have certain qualities, which in the end I hold to be completely unrelated to their democratic or non-democratic natures. What I am suggesting is that these qualities, structured in what I will just call the souls or the character of the people who happen to be leading at the moment, supported (or not) by the rest, each in their own role, are what really matter most. All of this is significantly obscured by obsessing on democracy as if it were a fundamental cause of a high quality of life, rather than being more a consequence of it; there may be some significant correlation in the end, but the causation is backwards, and one needs to look elsewhere for deeper original causes. In a technical company some while ago, I observed that each person who was most experienced or capable in any area was listened to and followed in that area by the rest; leadership and followership were widely distributed, usually falling upon the wisest arrangement in each case. No one ever ordered or forced anyone to do anything, as the teamwork and group dynamics came about quite naturally to organize the entire project. I recall only one vote being taken there, actually just a poll, to see how many would decide to keep on working almost without pay to try to keep the company going and get its products to market, after a partner company overseas walked out; most did. There is only one theme that I have always to come back to, because it is the most fundamental: the quality of human life, both individually and collectively, is structured solely in the quality of human consciousness at these same levels; further, it is possible to raise that quality very much, in ways that have been very substantially validated by a great body of experience. This quality quenches violence, this quality brings people together, this quality heals individual mind and body, and through this it heals and draws societies towards mutual support, away from mutual destruction, at which doorstep this world remains perched right now. This is the project I work at, through this university. Our product is a deep and complete education and practice for life, health and happiness, affecting every level from individual person to the entire world; it has been gaining ever widening recognition over the years, but not right here (newsgroup), where I do not seem to accomplish much for anyone else, for the time spent; that's why I'm hesitant to spend much more of it here. http://www.mum.edu . ==== i myself have no product to give :( (other than a headache) but during my life i have learned that most people have non-logical reasons for believing the things they do (and they don't need to). it all depends on perception (opinions, culture, experiences). when it comes to conflicts between perceptions, logic fails. it is not possible to show that one world view is right and the other is wrong because beliefs are ultimately based on faith. These beliefs come to them already made. maybe their parents passed them. maybe their friends changed them. but someone else made the beliefs for them. it is not until they reach maturity in life that they can make their own decisions about their beliefs. sometimes they get carried by the momentum of their lives and they keep believing what they previously had been believing. or they challenged their previous beliefs. or they don't have the time to think about all this. or they don't want to make effort to think about this (follow the wave). or they gamble into which one is safer (just in case they get judged at the end). or take the most convenient. or they take the most promising (like eternal life). or the one that makes them feel better. or the one that shows most evidence of being true (usually the ugly one).or make themselves their own (and then try to convince everybody else). which one is the best? which one will save me? which one is true? which one will i byte? it doesn't matter. after they have chosen one (and they are mature), they will defend them with their teeth. and they have reasons to do so. they make reasons to justify their beliefs. beliefs which were born in circumstance. and now they don't want to give away their reality. this would mean insecurity, chaos, danger and loneliness. they have solved insecurity by making reality. ((peep)) ==== I've noticed in this HPCC Conference thread that many seem to reduce their 58GX (?) expectations for future releases... something along a ... 42S ... 15C ... 27S ... (...) an entry level Scientific/ Engineering calculator that is a cross between the 42 and 48 with a 3 or 4 level stack and 2-D graphics -- the multi-line stack display makes learning RPN very easy (...) Something along the lines of the HP27S (...) ... 17BII ... a low end comparative (?) to the TI BAII Plus (for $30, that ... even does hyperbolic trigs!)... Why follow ??? Do please, LEAD again the market! Why settle for GOOD ? when HP should INVENT EXCELLENCE (as once did)! Consider the competitor improvements, but never kill innovation and YES, consider overall what was a success for the Customers... Think of 48GX, 41CX, 42S, 15, 27S, ... Why is it that those good oldies are still so valuable ? I would add some ideas from the 12C, 14B and 17BII keyplate design... (eg at least like %T, delta% and % ... basic keys) Anyhow, I'm glad that there are still out there people who would like new RPN Smaller Powerhorsed Calculators for science, graphing and financial business ! Every target market should deal with these both areas and need solid rock solutions like the blend of a reliable 41 and the power flexibility of the 4X series. How can a design team build from scratch our dream calculator ? (along a consistent bness plan) Did anyone care to build a repository with all the wishes-list published here? Let's only hope HP treat their customers and ETG, better than ACO. insight on this recent meeting. I've been reading the http://library.hp41.org/ and even though I can imagine there wasn't any other powerful programmable calculators (pocket solutions) back then (70's and beginning of the 80's), it still amazes me how much more from much more fields was written and developed for the 41 series in nearly the same 10 year period of each one (compared to the 28C/28S and 4x series). had been writing here what would like for a new calculator (the many never ending wishes lists), let alone the next 1.19-7 ROM release for the 49G. Recently of a calculator and that maybe its no longer needed (because of among other issues, the much more powerful actual laptops*)... Do you really think that? Why is it that older models are getting US$D 300 bids (even higher than the state of the art 49G) ? Are they better ? How many had been produced and sold (and to whom) from each model along the last twenty years ? Which are the key issues of the success of the 41, 12 and 15 series ? or even the latest 4x series, including the 200LX and which mught be the Win PocketPC 2002 *benefits ? Does it make sense trying to get HP's attention ? In case they won't continue developing calculators as it seems and spite the many efforts from the main contributors of this newsgroup, how can all those reasons be taken for example and copied today ? How can this HP4x community keep on developing itself ? or doing it better ? How can it improve itself or broaden its actual limits ? I must declare I love the HP old mystic allure of their products. The flexibility and reliability of the defying rock solid 41CX in outer space (along its programmable RPN tons of literature and software solutions and many field apps), the exquisite design and SIZE of the the VOYAGER series [10C 11C 12C 15C and 16C], reflected in the QUARANTANOVE BITMAP FOR EMU49 by MARCO CIOLFI for the Emu 49 with a stylish 48GX keyboard actual size and disposition as from the VOYAGER series (although I also liked the 14B_50th vey much), the funcionality of the 27S, 42S, 17BII, the buttons of the 48 and the power and even the screen of the 49... with a new engine (speed) improved, storage capacity increased and perhaps a new PC port connection available as well as the possibilities of the 200LX and the actual Jornadas 568 or 928 Win PDAs... with the chance of emulating the first ones with a better GUI graphic interface ... I'm not even getting warm with an actual laptop... Which function keys should be kept there ? But wait, don't stop there ! Keep on dreaming ! Imagine as optionals an Olympus 3 MegaPixel mini digital camera, a Sony MZ-N10 MiniDisc recorder, a Garmin GPS and a Handspring TREO 300 Communicator (Dual CDMA -1900 MHz- PCS cellular, SMS and Analog as wlll as Packet data versatile productivity tool with a Battery type able to maximize Talk and Standby times along with an unbeatable combo of reen+Weight+Size(LxWxH)+Volume and RAM capabilities. With a fully integrated address book which includes Palm OS organizer and/or Win PocketPC 2002 ?, with future third-ration (3G) standards from Siemens or/and Ericsson now... or al least the latest Sony Ericsson T68i or Nokia 3650, with three-band (900/1800/1900), compatible with GPRS, Bluetooth, MMS, J2ME, WAP 2.0, 4 MB memory, 150 grams and a sleek and small design, with 4-hour talk battery, etc. Is it just a waste of time? How can't we dream with the best of these worlds? As an industrial engineering student I should know it would be pretty tough to make a product with all those features while keeping its price and cost accesible , but many impossible dreams were the beginning of many projects come true. Shouldn't we dream with a gadget we would love to get ? Wouldn't it be the Victorinox gadget of our dreams ? Yeah, I know. I should be working in Q's department for the next James Bond film... Ok, ok, ok, ... we should first get at least a perfect bugs free scientific-graphic-expandable-SMALL-RPN- calculator which matches with the majority of former, actual and future expectations of every techie out there... and still remain a profitable business in order to never end its improvement. Even though, many of us would like to run, we should better first learn to walk.... In rugby, New Zealand All Blacks are world-known for doing the game basics, perfect. The rest of us should follow that hard example. Please do excuse my lack of english vocabulary. -- Carlos Lacroze Bs As, Argentina ==== Well,i have some quite simple wishes for any upcoming high end calculator: -A powerful hardware based more likely on the Xscale CPU,high resolution grayscale levels screen and at least 8 MB of RAM and several MB of Flash ROM -An ehanced version of the HP49 software -Incredible graphing capabilities far superior to anything done on a calculator before -Built-in C/C++ SDK ==== hi! the new zauruses come with Xcale. C/C++ compiler (and soon a C/C++ shell CH 3.0 math and graphics enhanced) 640x480 pixel display (the new one) 64 MB ram enhanced hp49g software CAS? -> XCAS or maxima pocket size it transforms into a tabletPC form linux OS you can even built your own ROMs (if you learn how to) more about the new zaurus here: http://www.idg.com.sg/idgwww.nsf/unidlookup/F5FDECAAEBD200FE48256C470006237E ?OpenDocument PS: the new zaurus will not sell outside Japan anytime soon. no word yet. > Well,i have some quite simple wishes for any upcoming high end > calculator: > -A powerful hardware based more likely on the Xscale CPU,high > resolution grayscale levels screen and at least 8 MB of RAM and > several MB of Flash ROM > -An ehanced version of the HP49 software > -Incredible graphing capabilities far superior to anything done on a > calculator before > -Built-in C/C++ SDK ==== X > more about the new zaurus here: http://www.idg.com.sg/idgwww.nsf/unidlookup/F5FDECAAEBD200FE48256C470006237E ?OpenDocument PS: the new zaurus will not sell outside Japan anytime soon. no word > yet. AAARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!! ==== of course, there is also the new zaurus http://www.sharp.co.jp/corporate/event/ceatec2002/images/photo_big_07.jpg ==== Do you mean something like this?: http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique/hpcc2002/fotipaq.jpg Compaq iPAQ 3130, that doesn't cost much more than a nowadays hp49g in machine like this could do, go to: http://www.handhelds.org The other hand is Marc Staps, holding a Sony Clie running a hp48 PalmOS emulator. There are tons of websites where you could see what can be done with a Palm... Of course, none of these fits into low cost calculator market, but I am thinking about top ones... For low level, I would like a hp42sii (to give it a name) and maybe a hp42sii with some kind of graphics.. But, thinking about top level machines, for university and professionals, I found that paying 200-250 Euros (more or less $200-$250) for a hp49 is too much when this kind of machine are available for more or less same prize (there is a Sony Clie from $150, and ipaq3130 more or less same prize). Of course, if a custom machine is designed.. I mean, with some kind of alpha-numeric keyboard, and some more add-ons, we could have a Scientific Digital Assistant for more or less same price that those low cost handhelds, and with all the powerfull posibilities of a computer in your pocket... like old time hp calculators used to be.. the power of a computer in your pocket. Have fun... J.Manrique http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique Users Club from Gij.97n http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu #1077 HPCC Member http://www.hpcc.org I've noticed in this HPCC Conference thread that many seem to reduce > their 58GX (?) expectations for future releases... something along a > ... 42S ... 15C ... 27S ... (...) an entry level Scientific/ > Engineering calculator that is a cross between the 42 and 48 with a 3 > or 4 level stack and 2-D graphics -- the multi-line stack display > makes learning RPN very easy (...) Something along the lines of the > HP27S (...) ... 17BII ... a low end comparative (?) to the TI BAII > Plus (for $30, that ... even does hyperbolic trigs!)... Why follow ??? Do please, LEAD again the market! Why settle for GOOD ? > when HP should INVENT EXCELLENCE (as once did)! Consider the > competitor improvements, but never kill innovation and YES, consider > overall what was a success for the Customers... Think of 48GX, 41CX, > 42S, 15, 27S, ... Why is it that those good oldies are still so > valuable ? I would add some ideas from the 12C, 14B and 17BII keyplate > design... (eg at least like %T, delta% and % ... basic keys) Anyhow, I'm glad that there are still out there people who would like > new RPN Smaller Powerhorsed Calculators for science, graphing and > financial business ! Every target market should deal with these both > areas and need solid rock solutions like the blend of a reliable 41 > and the power flexibility of the 4X series. How can a design team > build from scratch our dream calculator ? (along a consistent bness > plan) Did anyone care to build a repository with all the wishes-list > published here? Let's only hope HP treat their customers and ETG, better than ACO. insight on this recent meeting. > I've been reading the http://library.hp41.org/ and even though I can > imagine there wasn't any other powerful programmable calculators > (pocket solutions) back then (70's and beginning of the 80's), it > still amazes me how much more from much more fields was written and > developed for the 41 series in nearly the same 10 year period of each > one (compared to the 28C/28S and 4x series). had been writing here what would like for a new calculator (the many > never ending wishes lists), let alone the next 1.19-7 ROM release for > the 49G. Recently > of a calculator and that maybe its no longer needed (because of among > other issues, the much more powerful actual laptops*)... Do you really > think that? Why is it that older models are getting US$D 300 bids (even higher > than the state of the art 49G) ? Are they better ? How many had been > produced and sold (and to whom) from each model along the last twenty > years ? Which are the key issues of the success of the 41, 12 and 15 > series ? or even the latest 4x series, including the 200LX and which > mught be the Win PocketPC 2002 *benefits ? Does it make sense trying > to get HP's attention ? In case they won't continue developing > calculators as it seems and spite the many efforts from the main > contributors of this newsgroup, how can all those reasons be taken for > example and copied today ? How can this HP4x community keep on > developing itself ? or doing it better ? How can it improve itself or > broaden its actual limits ? I must declare I love the HP old mystic allure of their products. The > flexibility and reliability of the defying rock solid 41CX in outer > space (along its programmable RPN tons of literature and software > solutions and many field apps), the exquisite design and SIZE of the > the VOYAGER series [10C 11C 12C 15C and 16C], reflected in the > QUARANTANOVE BITMAP FOR EMU49 by MARCO CIOLFI for the Emu 49 with a > stylish 48GX keyboard actual size and disposition as from the VOYAGER > series (although I also liked the 14B_50th vey much), the funcionality > of the 27S, 42S, 17BII, the buttons of the 48 and the power and even > the screen of the 49... with a new engine (speed) improved, storage > capacity increased and perhaps a new PC port connection available as > well as the possibilities of the 200LX and the actual Jornadas 568 or > 928 Win PDAs... with the chance of emulating the first ones with a > better GUI graphic interface ... I'm not even getting warm with an > actual laptop... Which function keys should be kept there ? But wait, don't stop there ! Keep on dreaming ! Imagine as optionals > an Olympus 3 MegaPixel mini digital camera, a Sony MZ-N10 MiniDisc > recorder, a Garmin GPS and a Handspring TREO 300 Communicator (Dual > CDMA -1900 MHz- PCS cellular, SMS and Analog as wlll as Packet data > versatile productivity tool with a Battery type able to maximize Talk > and Standby times along with an unbeatable combo of > reen+Weight+Size(LxWxH)+Volume and RAM capabilities. With a fully > integrated address book which includes Palm OS organizer and/or Win > PocketPC 2002 ?, with future third-ration (3G) standards from > Siemens or/and Ericsson now... or al least the latest Sony Ericsson > T68i or Nokia 3650, with three-band (900/1800/1900), compatible with > GPRS, Bluetooth, MMS, J2ME, WAP 2.0, 4 MB memory, 150 grams and a > sleek and small design, with 4-hour talk battery, etc. Is it just a waste of time? How can't we dream with the best of these > worlds? As an industrial engineering student I should know it would be pretty > tough to make a product with all those features while keeping its > price and cost accesible , but many impossible dreams were the > beginning of many projects come true. Shouldn't we dream with a gadget > we would love to get ? Wouldn't it be the Victorinox gadget of our > dreams ? Yeah, I know. I should be working in Q's department for the next James > Bond film... Ok, ok, ok, ... we should first get at least a perfect bugs free > scientific-graphic-expandable-SMALL-RPN- calculator which matches with > the majority of former, actual and future expectations of every techie > out there... and still remain a profitable business in order to never > end its improvement. Even though, many of us would like to run, we > should better first learn to walk.... In rugby, New Zealand All Blacks are world-known for doing the game > basics, perfect. The rest of us should follow that hard example. > Please do excuse my lack of english vocabulary. ==== >[cut] >....Sony Clie running a hp48 i read before about the clie being slow. but now there is a new sony clie that runs at 200 Mhz. that wouldn't be too bad for a simulator, maybe a little expensive. http://www.sonystyle.com/home/scat.jsp?hierc=9684x9744x10081&scatid=10081 ==== The Sony running emu48 in 33MHz processor was more or less 30-40% faster than a real hp48. About the new Sone Clie, I've read a nice comparassion with a WindowsCE machine: -New Sony Clie $500 200MHz processor Proprietary expansion 16MB onboard RAM 8oz 5.5 long, 2.9 wide, .93 thick Manufacturer claim of 5 hrs of battery life with the backlight off Casio 125 (an old PocketPC machine) $550 when new 150MHz processor Compact Flash expansion 32MB onboard RAM 8.8oz 5.2 long, 3.3 wide, 0.8 thick 8hrs of battery life, and had a removable battery so you could carry an extra. And if you compare it with the new low cost PocketPC handhelds coming from HP: http://news.com.com/2100-1040-960522.html?tag=fd_top And emu48 already runs twice faster in a 133MHz SH3 Jornada... so I think that in a new ipaq runs fast enough... Just some thoughts.. J.Manrique http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique Users Club from Gij.97n http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu #1077 HPCC Member http://www.hpcc.org >[cut] >....Sony Clie running a hp48 i read before about the clie being slow. but now there is a new sony > clie that runs at 200 Mhz. that wouldn't be too bad for a simulator, > maybe a little expensive. http://www.sonystyle.com/home/scat.jsp?hierc=9684x9744x10081&scatid=10081 > ==== I haven't seen emu48 for the PalmOS anywhere. Is it available somewhere? Steve The Sony running emu48 in 33MHz processor was more or less 30-40% > faster than a real hp48. of battery life, and had a removable battery so you could carry ==== I haven't seen emu48 for the PalmOS anywhere. Is it available > somewhere? Yes, it is called Power48 and it is here: http://ftp.mindspring.com/~hildinger/Power48/ J.Manrique > Steve >The Sony running emu48 in 33MHz processor was more or less 30-40% >faster than a real hp48. > of battery life, and had a removable battery so you could carry ==== The Sony Clie has a 66 Mhz Dragon Ball VZ CPU,i think. The Sony running emu48 in 33MHz processor was more or less 30-40% > faster than a real hp48. About the new Sone Clie, I've read a nice comparassion with a > WindowsCE machine: > -New Sony Clie > $500 > 200MHz processor > Proprietary expansion > 16MB onboard RAM > 8oz > 5.5 long, 2.9 wide, .93 thick > Manufacturer claim of 5 hrs of battery life with the backlight off Casio 125 (an old PocketPC machine) > $550 when new > 150MHz processor > Compact Flash expansion > 32MB onboard RAM > 8.8oz > 5.2 long, 3.3 wide, 0.8 thick > 8hrs of battery life, and had a removable battery so you could carry > an extra. And if you compare it with the new low cost PocketPC handhelds > coming from HP: > http://news.com.com/2100-1040-960522.html?tag=fd_top And emu48 already runs twice faster in a 133MHz SH3 Jornada... so I > think that in a new ipaq runs fast enough... Just some thoughts.. > J.Manrique > http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique > Users Club from Gij.97n > http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu > #1077 HPCC Member > http://www.hpcc.org >[cut] >>....Sony Clie running a hp48 >i read before about the clie being slow. but now there is a new sony >clie that runs at 200 Mhz. that wouldn't be too bad for a simulator, >maybe a little expensive. > http://www.sonystyle.com/home/scat.jsp?hierc=9684x9744x10081&scatid=10081 > ==== There are Sony Clie machines running 33MHz CPU and others with 66MHz CPU, and the new ones coming with 200MHz CPU... J.Manrique > The Sony Clie has a 66 Mhz Dragon Ball VZ CPU,i think. > The Sony running emu48 in 33MHz processor was more or less 30-40% >faster than a real hp48. >About the new Sone Clie, I've read a nice comparassion with a >WindowsCE machine: >-New Sony Clie >$500 >200MHz processor >Proprietary expansion >16MB onboard RAM >8oz >5.5 long, 2.9 wide, .93 thick >Manufacturer claim of 5 hrs of battery life with the backlight off >Casio 125 (an old PocketPC machine) >$550 when new >150MHz processor >Compact Flash expansion >32MB onboard RAM >8.8oz >5.2 long, 3.3 wide, 0.8 thick >8hrs of battery life, and had a removable battery so you could carry >an extra. >And if you compare it with the new low cost PocketPC handhelds >coming from HP: >http://news.com.com/2100-1040-960522.html?tag=fd_top >And emu48 already runs twice faster in a 133MHz SH3 Jornada... so I >think that in a new ipaq runs fast enough... >Just some thoughts.. >J.Manrique >http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique >Users Club from Gij.97n >http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu >#1077 HPCC Member >http://www.hpcc.org >>[cut] >>>....Sony Clie running a hp48 >>i read before about the clie being slow. but now there is a new sony >> clie that runs at 200 Mhz. that wouldn't be too bad for a simulator, >> maybe a little expensive. >> http://www.sonystyle.com/home/scat.jsp?hierc=9684x9744x10081&scatid=10081 >> ==== I think that we are talking of the NR70V and this PDA has a 66 Mhz dragon Ball VZ CPU. Btw is the emulator on this PDA really 30/40 % faster than the real HP48 ? Not that i plan to buy a clie(i do hate Sony as much as some hate MS) but it would quite impressive. > There are Sony Clie machines running 33MHz CPU and others with 66MHz > CPU, and the new ones coming with 200MHz CPU... J.Manrique >The Sony Clie has a 66 Mhz Dragon Ball VZ CPU,i think. >>The Sony running emu48 in 33MHz processor was more or less 30-40% >> faster than a real hp48. >>About the new Sone Clie, I've read a nice comparassion with a >> WindowsCE machine: >> -New Sony Clie >> $500 >> 200MHz processor >> Proprietary expansion >> 16MB onboard RAM >> 8oz >> 5.5 long, 2.9 wide, .93 thick >> Manufacturer claim of 5 hrs of battery life with the backlight off >>Casio 125 (an old PocketPC machine) >> $550 when new >> 150MHz processor >> Compact Flash expansion >> 32MB onboard RAM >> 8.8oz >> 5.2 long, 3.3 wide, 0.8 thick >> 8hrs of battery life, and had a removable battery so you could carry >> an extra. >>And if you compare it with the new low cost PocketPC handhelds >> coming from HP: >> http://news.com.com/2100-1040-960522.html?tag=fd_top >>And emu48 already runs twice faster in a 133MHz SH3 Jornada... so I >> think that in a new ipaq runs fast enough... >>Just some thoughts.. >> J.Manrique >> http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique >> Users Club from Gij.97n >> http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu >> #1077 HPCC Member >> http://www.hpcc.org >>>[cut] >>>>>....Sony Clie running a hp48 >>>i read before about the clie being slow. but now there is a new sony >>clie that runs at 200 Mhz. that wouldn't be too bad for a simulator, >>maybe a little expensive. >>> http://www.sonystyle.com/home/scat.jsp?hierc=9684x9744x10081&scatid=10081 >> ==== I've noticed in this HPCC Conference thread that many seem to reduce > their 58GX (?) expectations for future releases... something along a > ... 42S ... 15C ... 27S ... (...) an entry level Scientific/ > Engineering calculator that is a cross between the 42 and 48 with a 3 > or 4 level stack and 2-D graphics -- the multi-line stack display > makes learning RPN very easy (...) Something along the lines of the > HP27S (...) ... 17BII ... a low end comparative (?) to the TI BAII > Plus (for $30, that ... even does hyperbolic trigs!)... Why follow ??? Do please, LEAD again the market! Why settle for GOOD ? > when HP should INVENT EXCELLENCE (as once did)! : Most of us today would be happy if HP would in fact at least FOLLOW the competitors. HP hasn't had a good low-end financial calculator in many years that really competed against TI. Your dreams are nice and I wish they would happen, but rather than no HP calculators at all or ones that are a pale imitation of TI's, I'd be happy if their products would just compete with TI. My opinions. ==== Why follow ??? Do please, LEAD again the market! Why settle for GOOD ? > when HP should INVENT EXCELLENCE (as once did)! Consider the > competitor improvements, but never kill innovation and YES, consider > overall what was a success for the Customers... Think of 48GX, 41CX, > 42S, 15, 27S, ... Why is it that those good oldies are still so > valuable ? I would add some ideas from the 12C, 14B and 17BII keyplate > design... (eg at least like %T, delta% and % ... basic keys) > I agree HP should but they also need a mid-level scientific calc. HP just hasn't addressed this area in the past 10 years and IMHO it is this failure to have a basic advanced scientific calc that caused them to fail in the market place. A HP49 or any high end mathematic device is going to have a limited market but is where the inovation and development comes from. Given their small design team they will be able to bring such a calulator to the market earlier. If they do I may have some chance to introduce my son to something other than TI's or Casio's But wait, don't stop there ! Keep on dreaming ! Imagine as optionals > an Olympus 3 MegaPixel mini digital camera, a Sony MZ-N10 MiniDisc > recorder, a Garmin GPS and a Handspring TREO 300 Communicator (Dual > CDMA -1900 MHz- PCS cellular, SMS and Analog as wlll as Packet data > versatile productivity tool with a Battery type able to maximize Talk > and Standby times along with an unbeatable combo of > reen+Weight+Size(LxWxH)+Volume and RAM capabilities. With a fully > integrated address book which includes Palm OS organizer and/or Win > PocketPC 2002 ?, with future third-ration (3G) standards from > Siemens or/and Ericsson now... or al least the latest Sony Ericsson > T68i or Nokia 3650, with three-band (900/1800/1900), compatible with > GPRS, Bluetooth, MMS, J2ME, WAP 2.0, 4 MB memory, 150 grams and a > sleek and small design, with 4-hour talk battery, etc. > Sorry, please do stop there. I want a small, lightweight device with battery power measured in months not minutes. Don't bog it down with features that aren't necessary. Maybe it can have ports for those type of attachments, after all the 41C and 48GX had similar ports for third party devices. Be a calculatur/maths device first and foremost otherwise it's just another PDA and I'll go out and buy a Sony Cleo today rather than wait years for HP. Stephen.N ==== > I've noticed in this HPCC Conference thread that many seem to reduce > their 58GX (?) expectations for future releases... [...] > Why follow ??? Do please, LEAD again the market! Why settle for GOOD ? > when HP should INVENT EXCELLENCE (as once did)! That would be great, but the reality is that HP only has a handful of people working on calculators now, vs. over a thousand back in the days of the HP-41, -15, -28, and -48. Given that until just recently we thought they'd dropped calculators entirely, at this point our expectations are pretty low. Sure, a worthy successor to the 48 and 49 would be nice, but given the resources HP has made available for calculators, if they were to try to do that right away we could expect to wait several years before seeing anything. Whereas if they can get a less ambitious product out first, and prove themselves, maybe they can be assigned more resources to work on bigger projects. ==== > Our product is a deep and complete education and practice > for life, health and happiness, > affecting every level from individual person to the entire world; > it has been gaining ever widening recognition over the years, > but not right here (newsgroup), where I do not seem to accomplish > much for anyone else, for the time spent; that's why I'm hesitant > to spend much more of it here. Dear John, Never mind the Newburys of this world. I do appreciate a lot your work and contributions here. You have helped me with your knowledge and example for a long time now, and I'm sure that most of the people here do recognise your work along all these years. You certainly accomplished a lot and I would really like to keep on reading your words. > As Wally once told his PHB, only one in ten R&D projects > succeeds, so why not cancel the other nine and save money. I'm also a *bottom line oriented man, but won't you agree that the *failure* of those nine projects, might help the *success* of the tenth one ? Ok, today I'm trying to be more *Triple Bottom Line oriented, just because I believe it's even better for corporate objectives. > Eric Smith of brouhaha.com [more later about this name]: I've been admiring enlightened and visionary american people like the ones cited since I was younger, I still do with many of them. But,can we at least follow and perhaps even try to improve their -Bill Hewlett and David Packard- example ? I really don't know and can't say about Mrs. Fiorina's actions. Time changes many things and perhaps what is done is better for HP, besides affecting our interests as a community. Time will say. Don't we all agree that in spite of being the best solution we have -as Churchill put it-, democracy still has its failures ? Isn't it true that not everyone's voice counts the same ? I only know I'm not better, smarter or wiser than many. Perhaps, that's the only sign of wisdom I have left In any case, we should take more care of what we say and/or write. Check for *TBL concept here http://www.sustainability.com/philosophy/triple-bottom/tbl-intro.asp -- Carlos Lacroze Buenos Aires, Argentina ==== On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 00:41:03, to employment You've been steeped too long in socialist liturgy. No-one, NO-ONE is ENTITLED to employment. Everyone is entitled to seek employment, and should not be restricted by laws which protect the employment status of others. AS to natural law, if you really like what 'natural law' is, I suggest you go live under Saddam Hussein. Hobbes properly described a life under 'natural law': short, nasty and brutish. >and not to be treated like *things* to be discarded at the > transitory whims of management. THIS, I agree with. > It is a matter of morality and social > responsibility given that the loss of a single job has an impact on more > than share holder value. The morality and social responsibility parts have nothing to do with shareholders. They should be part of what used to called civic responsibility. ==== Layoffs can also have a very practical, bottom-line effect on the company's future ability to recruit, on morale, loyalty, productivity (what percentage of work time is spent job-hunting?), as well as stability and continuity. Wasn't there a report posted about HP laying off the production line workers for calculators still in production, and then scrambling to try to hire them back? The corporate environment has gone somewhat along the same path as has farming; in its shortsighted ignorance, it has been depleting its own soil and also paving over much of what used to be fertile land; it has also jumped headfirst into using technologies that soon will be out of control, and will cause extreme harm. This is what happens when arrogant people lose their identity, and sever the connection of their own minds with the source of all minds, at the same time severing their deeper connection with the rest of humanity, as well as from all other life on earth. Many who write in this newsgroup are just like this; I have never heard from anyone in this group who comprehends the reality of what I said in the prior sentence, although it has been a known and well examined fact throughout all human history, deeply understood by its most developed individuals. [r->] [OFF] . ==== > This is what happens when arrogant people lose their identity, and > sever the connection of their own minds with the source of all minds, > at the same time severing their deeper connection > with the rest of humanity, as well as from all other life on earth. Many who write in this newsgroup are just like this; > I have never heard from anyone in this group > who comprehends the reality of what I said in the prior sentence, > although it has been a known and well examined fact > throughout all human history, > deeply understood by its most developed individuals. It is impossible to 'comprehend the reality' of psychobabble. And that is what that sentence sounds like... Or was it 'revealed truth? 'Cause I have NO idea what 'known and well examined fact' you are referring to. And BTW, I ignore backhanders which imply that I am not one of the 'most developed individuals' because I don't understand what the hell you're talking about. Until that sentence I was in basic agreement with what you had written. Layoff programs *do* hurt morale and loyalty, *and* productivity. Corporatism is often shortsighted... Then you seemed to go off your meds... Geoff ==== reality is nothing else than an interpretation that we make (fabricate). it is also a necessity for us in order to live. this interpretation is unique to individual circumstances. for example, a table can have infinity realities. if the table is in our way, then it is an obstacle. if we need to write a letter, then is a convenience. a table by itself is nothing without interpretation. reality is what we make in order to feel secured upon insecurity. it is the interpretation we give to circumstance in order to be convinced of something. reality depends on one's orientation (circumstance) and needs. and what is a necessity? it depends on circumstance :) many consider the feeling of love a necessity in life. thus, from their own perspective love is a real fact, a primordial necessity for living. something more important than any external facts. if we don't try look from their perspective, we will have trouble understanding them. > It is impossible to 'comprehend the reality' of psychobabble. And that > is what that sentence sounds like... Or was it 'revealed truth? 'Cause > I have NO idea what 'known and well examined fact' you are referring > to. And BTW, I ignore backhanders which imply that I am not one of the > 'most developed individuals' because I don't understand what the hell > you're talking about. Until that sentence I was in basic agreement with what you had > written. Layoff programs *do* hurt morale and loyalty, *and* > productivity. Corporatism is often shortsighted... Then you seemed to > go off your meds... Geoff ==== > reality is nothing else than an interpretation that we make > (fabricate). it is also a necessity for us in order to live. this > interpretation is unique to individual circumstances. yadda, yadda, yadda.. Sounds like you just walked out of your Philosophy 101 class. Reality caan be dealt with on various levels. on none of them, is 'reality' a necessity to live. However, on at least one of those levels, our interpretation must necessarily coincide with the interpretations held by the mass of mankind. It *is* kinda hard to disagree with the reality of a car moving on the highway, just because *you* want to believe that there is no car coming. And necessity as a psychological condition has nothing to do with reality. End of my discussion. Geoff ==== >yadda, yadda, yadda.. >End of my discussion. hi hi hi > reality is nothing else than an interpretation that we make >(fabricate). it is also a necessity for us in order to live. this >interpretation is unique to individual circumstances. > yadda, yadda, yadda.. Sounds like you just walked out of your Philosophy 101 class. > Reality caan be dealt with on various levels. on none of them, is > 'reality' a necessity to live. However, on at least one of those > levels, our interpretation must necessarily coincide with the > interpretations held by the mass of mankind. It *is* kinda hard to > disagree with the reality of a car moving on the highway, just because > *you* want to believe that there is no car coming. And necessity as a psychological condition has nothing to do with > reality. End of my discussion. > Geoff ==== I hope people will post more info soon, but yes, HP is still in Calculators Business. HPCC Conference was great, and for a newbie HPCC member like me, it was a pleasure meeting a lot of people from the past times, from the ex-ACO, and from the new Personal Systems Group, Emerging You must wait for more info... J.Manrique Users Club from Gij.97n #1077 HPCC Member > Has anyone got any information on weather HP is still in the calculator > business? The HPCC Conference this past weekend was to have reps from HP to > give the definitive answer to that, but so far no on is saying anything. ==== And of course, there are already some photos from PCX site: http://press.ehsal.be/pcx/conference_2002/pcx%20pictures.html You might found some interesting... Have fun, J.Manrique Users Club from Gij.97n #1077 HPCC Member I hope people will post more info soon, but yes, HP is still in > Calculators Business. HPCC Conference was great, and for a newbie HPCC member like me, it > was a pleasure meeting a lot of people from the past times, from the > ex-ACO, and from the new Personal Systems Group, Emerging You must wait for more info... J.Manrique > Users Club from Gij.97n > #1077 HPCC Member >Has anyone got any information on weather HP is still in the calculator >business? The HPCC Conference this past weekend was to have reps from HP to >give the definitive answer to that, but so far no on is saying anything. ==== > And of course, there are already some photos from PCX site: > http://press.ehsal.be/pcx/conference_2002/pcx%20pictures.html You might found some interesting... Have fun, > J.Manrique > Users Club from Gij.97n > #1077 HPCC Member <11624751.0209250226.35eba055@posting.google.com> <81f1e5dc.0209251105.655d0d97@posting.google.com> ==== In message <81f1e5dc.0209251105.655d0d97@posting.google.com>, Aaron If you mean picture 16 then that is Wlodek Mier-Jedrzejowicz kneeling in Avenard looking across and talking. -- ==== Looks like Wlodek to me. -- * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * * but I own them. * >And of course, there are already some photos from PCX site: >http://press.ehsal.be/pcx/conference_2002/pcx%20pictures.html > ==== A) I couldn't afford to go to that event. C) Mine has _only_ odd key coloring: [ON] key color is ROLLed Down to [ALPHA] [ALPHA] -> [LeftShift] -> [RightShift] -> [ON] which means that I make error pressing my blue right-shift key, while the original blue left-shift was my intention. No other problems with this oddity. Certainly a collectors piece: ID93101038 Veli-Pekka PS: It seems that the key labeling is done AFTER the calculator has been assembled together. > Looks like Wlodek to me. > -- > * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * > * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * > * but I own them. * >> And of course, there are already some photos from PCX site: >> http://press.ehsal.be/pcx/conference_2002/pcx%20pictures.html ==== Yes, he is Wlodek playing with Avenard's golden calculator.... It is not clear in the photo, but you can also see Cyrille's black one. J.Manrique Users Club from Gij.97n #1077 HPCC Member > Looks like Wlodek to me. > -- > * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * > * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * > * but I own them. * >> And of course, there are already some photos from PCX site: >> http://press.ehsal.be/pcx/conference_2002/pcx%20pictures.html > ==== > Yes, he is Wlodek playing with Avenard's golden calculator.... A golden HP49G? That's funny, HP seems to be copying TI as much as they can. But then I guess they have no choice... -- Bhuvanesh ==== > A golden HP49G? That's funny, HP seems to be copying TI as much as > they can. But then I guess they have no choice... Hehe - no, it's not a new TI83 ultra+++++ Also, exactly (I believe) one black HP49G exist - that one is Cyrille dB's. ==== > Also, exactly (I believe) one black HP49G exist - that one is Cyrille dB's. It's too bad they didn't offer that color on retail units -- I might actually have considered buying a black 49. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== >A golden HP49G? That's funny, HP seems to be copying TI as much as >they can. But then I guess they have no choice... Hehe - no, it's not a new TI83 ultra+++++ Well, fortunately they don't make these things orange or some such color. It would be so weird to take something like that to the office. Also, exactly (I believe) one black HP49G exist - that one is Cyrille dB's. I see, they are not being made for the ral public that way. Still, I find it weird to have custom-colored calculators... maybe to make sure they don't get switched with someone else's? Bhuvanesh. ==== > I see, they are not being made for the ral public that way. Still, > I find it weird to have custom-colored calculators... maybe to make > sure they don't get switched with someone else's? Have you seen the HP30S? Interchangeable front covers with different colours a la mobile phones. The kids love it. ==== >I see, they are not being made for the ral public that way. Still, >I find it weird to have custom-colored calculators... maybe to make >sure they don't get switched with someone else's? > Have you seen the HP30S? Interchangeable front covers with different > colours a la mobile phones. The kids love it. I guess I'm getting old -- Bhuvanesh ==== > Has anyone got any information on weather HP is still in the calculator > business? The HPCC Conference this past weekend was to have reps from HP to > give the definitive answer to that, but so far no on is saying anything. First, I did not go, so my comments are purely speculation. But if the Hp Rep did not show, that is an answer in itself. The poor Hp Rep could have been part of Carly's work force reduction (fancy, soft way to say FIRED! or LAID OFF!). I hope not. I hope Hp is going to market an affordable pocket sized RPN. The 49G is a good graphics (by most standards, the best yet available, and if they had stayed with 48 type hardware and tripled the clock rate, A GREAT CALC). But I prefer a good pocket calc. When I go back to my desk for serious number crunching I can use a PC just as easily as a desktop graphics calculator. I think that says the reality for over 90% of the engineering workforce. Bill Hewlett wanted a pocket calculator 30 years ago, I still want one today. AND the 49G isn't that calculator! My favorite pocket calc is an Hp15c for ral number crunching, perfect size and layout, but a more practical calc is the 42s (much more RAM and alpha prompts). But at this stage I will take a 30s in RPN if Hp will brand label such a product (Hp certainly isn't going to make calculators themselves anymore). Just me, ranting and raving! ==== >Bill Hewlett wanted a pocket calculator 30 >years ago, I still want one today. Just me, ranting and raving! Rant on, brother! I agree completely. Don ==== Since today is Tuesday, one would think someone would have posted info by now...have they all been sequestered somewhere? :-) -- * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * * but I own them. * > Has anyone got any information on weather HP is still in the calculator > business? The HPCC Conference this past weekend was to have reps from HP to > give the definitive answer to that, but so far no on is saying anything. -- Richard Garner > rgarner@vidnet.net ==== I really expected to hear , but I have seen no word. The hpcc website links to another sister organization where you can see pictures from the conference. Unfortunately, the pictures are all I have found. Not exactly what I was looking for. Perhaps is right. They are bound, gagged, and forced to watch HP executives demonstrate how many levels of nested parentheses the new HP (re-badged TI) algebraic calculators have. It must be hell on earth. On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:47:17 -0500, Wright >Since today is Tuesday, one would think someone would have posted info by >now...have they all been sequestered somewhere? :-) > -- >* All opinions herein expressed are mine and * >* mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * >* but I own them. * >> Has anyone got any information on weather HP is still in the calculator >> business? The HPCC Conference this past weekend was to have reps from HP >to >> give the definitive answer to that, but so far no on is saying anything. >> -- >> Richard Garner >> rgarner@vidnet.net > > ==== I just looked on HP's site (www.hpshopping.com) and went to look at the latest prices and apparently you can't get any details on *any* calculators anymore. Can anyone confirm this? I suppose this is the end of all calculators from HP? Doug ==== I just ordered a spare HP48GX a few days ago and it came in two days. I went to hpshopping.com just now after reading your message, and found the calculator ordering information just fine. I don't think there has been a change there. Don >I just looked on HP's site (www.hpshopping.com) and went to look at the >latest prices and apparently you can't get any details on *any* calculators >anymore. Can anyone confirm this? I suppose this is the end of all calculators from HP? Doug ==== One other thing - I did notice that the 38G and the really low-end algebraic 6S have disappeared from the web site. If you have a 6S, rush out right now and get an insurance policy on it. They'll be selling for $300 on ebay by tomorrow evening! :-) Don ==== > I just looked on HP's site (www.hpshopping.com) and went to look at the > latest prices and apparently you can't get any details on *any* calculators > anymore. Can anyone confirm this? I suppose this is the end of all calculators from HP? Doug > In the lower left corner, under home office product store is a calculator entry. Jack ==== Is there a way to get the ROM version from a serial number of an HP-48SX? Doug ==== > Is there a way to get the ROM version from a serial number > of an HP-48SX? Is it a dead unit, or does it work? If working, do HEX then #30794h SYSEVAL (*HP48* only!) Note: That's a HEX address ^^ NOT decimal! (a wrong address could wipe out memory, folks!) The result will be HPHP48-x where x is the rom version letter (yes, this is the function used to create binary output file headers) On the *HP49*, :VERSTRING: #2F389h SYSEVAL produces either HPHP49-B or HPHP49-C (so it's not particularly informative :) ((o)) . ==== It's a unit that I don't have access to so I was just wondering. Doug > Is there a way to get the ROM version from a serial number >of an HP-48SX? Is it a dead unit, or does it work? If working, do HEX then #30794h SYSEVAL (*HP48* only!) Note: That's a HEX address ^^ NOT decimal! > (a wrong address could wipe out memory, folks!) The result will be HPHP48-x where x is the rom version letter > (yes, this is the function used to create binary output file headers) > On the *HP49*, :VERSTRING: #2F389h SYSEVAL > produces either HPHP49-B or HPHP49-C > (so it's not particularly informative :) > ((o)) > . ==== When I download a program from the calculator to the PC, I find a lot of the characters are not recognised. For example; the classic ->. I manipulate the program and try to tell the calculator the translate codes so I can download the program back to the calculator but it doesn't work. How do I get around this? I am using a HP48GX Rom version R. Rod ==== > When I download a program from the calculator to the PC, > [I get non-ascii characters] For example; the classic -> Before you upload any more programs, perform 3 TRANSIO; then your PC editor (e.g. Notepad) will be much happier. > I manipulate the program and try to tell the calculator > the translate codes so I can download the program > back to the calculator but it doesn't work. As to previously uploaded programs, if you change %%HP: T(?)... to %%HP: T(3)... at the top of the PC file, then I would expect the programs to still download properly, but the question remains, how did you encode any non-ascii characters that you might have wanted to replace or insert? You would have to use the special backslash sequences found here: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8013hf%24apm%241%40nnrp1.deja.com ((o)) http://www.mum.edu . ==== How do I convert the expression 'mystuff' to the string mystuff on the hp48? The ->str command convert it to 'mystuff', but i don't want the single quote. TIA Nikodemus ==== > How do I convert the expression 'mystuff' to the string mystuff > on the hp48? The ->str command converts it to 'mystuff' For variable names (but not for algebraic expressions): 'name' + ==> name For variable names *or* algebraic expressions: << ->STR 2 OVER SIZE 1 - SUB >> The result of ->STR can be recompiled, but often not so after removing quotes. ((o)) http://www.mum.edu . ==== /Nikodemus > How do I convert the expression 'mystuff' to the string mystuff >> on the hp48? The ->str command converts it to 'mystuff' > For variable names (but not for algebraic expressions): 'name' + ==> name > For variable names *or* algebraic expressions: << ->STR 2 OVER SIZE 1 - SUB The result of ->STR can be recompiled, > but often not so after removing quotes. > ((o)) http://www.mum.edu > . ==== i would like to use the KEYEVAL command to get a character back. eg. given wanted 11 -> A (character) or better A so i can read with user rpl keyboard inputs. if i execute 11.4 KEYEVAL A is in the commandline and not in stacklevel 1. i use rom 1.19. i used it before like this and it worked. so are there other ways to get the string (or character) back? or are any flags wrong set? should be a very fast routine. hope you understand my problem max ==== You have to press ENTER Be aware of a FOR variable problems with KEYEVAL i would like to use the KEYEVAL command to get a character back. eg. given wanted > 11 -> A (character) or better A so i can read with user rpl keyboard inputs. > if i execute 11.4 KEYEVAL A is in the commandline and not in stacklevel 1. > i use rom 1.19. i used it before like this and it worked. so are there other ways to get the string (or character) back? > or are any flags wrong set? > should be a very fast routine. hope you understand my problem max ==== I need help configuring keyman. I want to do a very simple thing, I want to make a key assignment that does one thing when the key is left-shifted normally, and another thing when left-shift is hold down while the key is pressed. I have tried, but I can't get it to work properly, I hope anyone experienced with this program could help. thanx, Artur ==== > I want to do a very simple thing, I want to make a key assignment that > does one thing when the key is left-shifted normally, and another thing > when left-shift is hold down while the key is pressed. Do what the manual says. If you want to assign two actions to a key, first put the two actions on the stack 1 and 2. The action in 2 will be evaluated with shift-hold, 1 with normal shift. Then execute IFSH, this produces a sort of wrapper program. Then use A?D to assign this program to the key you want. -- Ralf Kleineisel ==== I got HP 49G I downloaded few libraries. I transferred them via cable. I can see them on calculator but I don't know how to run them. Please help... Daniel ==== > I got HP 49G; I downloaded a few libraries. > I transferred them via cable. I can see them on the calculator > but I don't know how to run them. Libraries are not executable objects, and they don't run! Libraries are rally collections of *several* different commands, which get *installed* into the calculator, to expand the built-in command set (which in turn consists of other libraries in ROM). That's why libraries have to reside in a different area than where user variables reside; that's what ports are for. Many libraries are packaged along with complete instructions for installation and use, or see other posts and answers. ((o)) . ==== I got HP 49G I downloaded few libraries. I transferred them via cable. I can > see them on calculator but I don't know how to run them. Please help... Daniel place the library on the stack, then type the port number you wish to install it to between 0-2 (i always use port 0). then press sto. Do a on-c combination to reset the calc, and your set! ==== > place the library on the stack, then type the port number you wish to > install it to between 0-2 (i always use port 0). then press sto. Do > a on-c combination to reset the calc, and your set! If the lib is a non-self-attaching one you have to attach it to a directory, too. -- Ralf Kleineisel ==== As usual, see the FAQ on www.hpcalc.org. An alternative would be to read the manual Aaron Toponce schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I got HP 49G I downloaded few libraries. I transferred them via cable. I can >see them on calculator but I don't know how to run them. Please help... > Daniel place the library on the stack, then type the port number you wish to > install it to between 0-2 (i always use port 0). then press sto. Do > a on-c combination to reset the calc, and your set! ==== The menu system one the 48/49 is a rather involved parts of the operating system. In contrast to key-customazibility which is quite easily realized with Keyman, customizability of menus (which mainly concerns the complex builtin menus) is much harder to realize. An essential step is the OT49-command LMN (List Menu Names) which has still be improved in the latest edition of OT49 on my site (not yet on hpcalc.org; a similar OT48 will appear soon). I remember, while programming various math problems in UsrRPL on the HP48 years ago, I wanted some change in the PLOT menu. But I could not get this and other menus to the stack, particularly if they contain submenus. To give you a feeling why this is useful, consider the following problem: JYA allowed only in ROM 19-6 direct access to the useful 63 MENU (it's now on leftshift-hold MODE). But the equally useful 110 MENU with its important commands PINIT etc is not yet directly available (or am I mistaken?). A a good place would be leftshift-hold 2, corresponding to the HP48. 110 MENU had been modified on the 49. Its first item PORTS has been removed because JYA decided to append the port access to the LIB menu (a really strange idea; moreover, this appending is not well programmed (ROMPTR A9 6F) and slows down the LIB key considerably if many libs live on the 49. It would be no problem for LIBman to restore this well-contrived 48-behaviour (together with a key assignment on leftshift-hold 2). Another idea is the following simple solution: Fill the gap at the end of 110 MENU with the PURGE command (hardly accessible in Intermediate entry mode on the 49) and assign this to leftshift-hold 2. For the time beeing, this is readily done with LMN. Assign to leftshift-hold 2 << 110 LMN OBJ-> DROP2 {PURGE} HEAD 6 ->LIST TMENU >> Process this with ->TO from Keyman, to make it work also in edit mode. Now leftshift-hold 2 shows the menu |PVARS| |LIBS| |DETACH| |ATTACH |PINIT| |PURGE| which is likewise useful to purge a lib from a port much faster than with the filer. Clearly, the best thing would be a return to the smart HP48 LIB menu organization with separate port entries on PORTS. I personally have these entries directly on 0, 1, 2 longhold :-) - Wolfgang PS 1. The above UsrRPL-program can easily reduced from 48 to 35 bytes by the command ->XU (to Extended UsrRPL) from OT49. It will then read as 110 MENU OBJ-> DROP2 ' PURGE 6 ->LIST TMENU PS 2. Note that the latest Keyman for the 48 and 49 aren't from Paulo Pinheiro as follows: I'm really happy with this new version of Keyman, and I'm glad to see that HP49 owners are not the only ones to be able to use your good programs. I'm using it with MK2.30 is a still unsolved problem with the new key-recorder on which I posted a couple of days before. ==== Does anybody know how to run the solver automatically. My example is I have an equation that I may want PROGRAMATICALLY solve for any one of the variables, given all of the others. I am able to invoke the solver (using 30 MENU but cannot find a way to automatically solve for one of the variables and return back, without any user interaction. Kevin ==== > I am able to invoke the solver (using 30 MENU) > but cannot automatically solve for one of the variables > and return back, without any user interaction. 'expression' 'name' guess(es) ROOT Example: 'EXP(X)-LN(X)=5.' 'X' 1. ROOT The result 1.71152201393 is both returned on the stack and stored in the named variable 'X' Note that the equation is supplied on the stack (reserved variable 'EQ' is not used). Any other variables in the equation must have predefined numeric values (units are permitted). Guess(es) means either one numeric value, or a list of from one to three numeric values, which the solver will try first. A guess of 0. is equivalent to the list { 0. 1. } Menu 30 is basically just a convenient user interface for invoking the ROOT command; the expression is taken from the variable 'EQ' and the guess(es) are taken from the initial contents of the variable being solved for, or { 0. 1. } if the variable doesn't initially exist. ((o)) Best wishes from http://www.mum.edu . ==== > or a list of from one to three numeric values, > which the solver will try first. I knewer knew this? A list of guesses?.......that's odd. ==== >> or a list of from one to three numeric values, >> which the solver will try first. I knewer knew this? A list of guesses?.......that's odd. Not odd at all; in a physical world problem you are able to define a positive solution to an equation that might have several solutions. -- Sincerely, Richard M. Smith (509) 754-0259 rmsmith@pobox.REMOVE.com ==== > Not odd at all; in a physical world problem you are able to define a > positive solution to an equation that might have several solutions. I didn't mean that the feature was odd, I meant that it was odd that I didn't know of it. I have used HP calculators for many years, and as a hobby - hence, alot! I've also read most of what exist of HP calc litterature, and frequented this group since shortly after it was created - bulletin boards before that. I've never seen it mentioned even once. ==== Seen re entering multiple guesses: > I've never seen it mentioned even once. Entering one guess is mentioned in the 48 series users guides; entering multiple guesses is probably mentioned in the AUR, and in Donnelly's HP48 handbooks. Entering multiple guesses is also a very old HP numeric solver feature; I don't know whether it was in the HP71B (1984-1989, first calc using Saturn CPU), but it certainly was present in the HP18C (1986-1988 financial calc), and later in the HP17B[ii] and HP19B[ii] (later financial models), and I'd guess in various scientific models as well. In those menu-based numeric solvers, you could enter one guess by storing it into the variable to be solved for, and you could enter a second guess by storing the second guess into the same variable, just before requesting the numeric root. Apparently you had to wait for the HP48 (or 28S/C?) to be granted three guesses, as in all standard fairy tales. So, it's by now all ancient history ((o)) With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu . ==== > Entering one guess is mentioned in the 48 series users guides; > entering multiple guesses is probably mentioned in the AUR, > and in Donnelly's HP48 handbooks. The stack syntax of ROOT shows that one can use a list as guesses, but this list is not mentioned in the text at all. I hadn't given it much thought only seeing that stack syntax. > Entering multiple guesses is also a very old > HP numeric solver feature; I don't know whether > it was in the HP71B (1984-1989, first calc using Saturn CPU), > but it certainly was present in the HP18C (1986-1988 financial calc), > and later in the HP17B[ii] and HP19B[ii] (later financial models), > and I'd guess in various scientific models as well. I haven't used any of those calcs more than briefly. > Apparently you had to wait for the HP48 (or 28S/C?) > to be granted three guesses, as in all standard fairy tales. And the list is not explained in either of the HP48 manuals (S, G or AUR). I didn't look through Donnelly's books just now, but I trust You if You say it's in there. I would hardly call it a documented feature, if you have to go through Donnelly's books to find it ==== (but if you are curious enough to experiment, you will find that it can be from one to three). Donnelly's fine handbook illustrates a single guess without a list, and also two or three guesses in a list; meanwhile, Donnelly's smaller pocket reference book shows only a single guess, while Grapevine's pocket guide shows only a list of guesses :) Getting different (or only partial) information from different sources is a pervasive element in life experience; we may let it limit us, or we may explore and find out for ourselves. Mini-challenge for HP12C owners: There are two useful (and even obvious) commands which are even programmable, but which are found in no documentation that I have ever seen, from HP or other publishers; what are they? This illustrates, by the way, how an original author or architect may have implemented a truly complete vision, which subsequent documenters have always overlooked; consider the possibility that even the universe's author or architect might have implemented features which you can access, but which, because no one among its interpreters has yet told you or taught you, you may be missing out on. With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu . ==== My addition to the text below is: { 0. 1. } will search a ROOT _between_ the numbers. If there are multiple roots this may help you to select the interesting domain OR if you know that there surely is a root between the numbers the solver will also find it. a single number will have a partner or pare rated by the calculator close to users number. { .5 0. 1. } will search a ROOT between 0. 1. with a best guess of 0.5 (where to start the search) If you provide a good approx. the root will be found faster. The best guess may also have units attached to it. [ON] key press should give the current list of three numbers and you can start over. Pressing any other key while in the SOLVER will show the current two guesses in the status area. I tested this in my HP 48GX and in my HP 49G I get an Extremum...and that is another story which I hope that Nick will tell you! > I am able to invoke the solver (using 30 MENU) >but cannot automatically solve for one of the variables >and return back, without any user interaction. 'expression' 'name' guess(es) ROOT Example: 'EXP(X)-LN(X)=5.' 'X' 1. ROOT The result 1.71152201393 is both returned on the stack > and stored in the named variable 'X' Note that the equation is supplied on the stack > (reserved variable 'EQ' is not used). Any other variables in the equation must have > predefined numeric values (units are permitted). Guess(es) means either one numeric value, > or a list of from one to three numeric values, > which the solver will try first. A guess of 0. is equivalent to the list { 0. 1. } Menu 30 is basically just a convenient user interface for invoking > the ROOT command; the expression is taken from the variable 'EQ' > and the guess(es) are taken from the initial contents > of the variable being solved for, or { 0. 1. } > if the variable doesn't initially exist. > ((o)) Best wishes from http://www.mum.edu > . ==== A bit late because I was away last week, here are my observations: > My addition to the text below is: > { 0. 1. } will search a ROOT _between_ the numbers. > If there are multiple roots this may help you to select the > interesting domain OR if you know that there surely is > a root between the numbers the solver will also find it. a single number will have a partner or pare > rated by the calculator close to users number. { .5 0. 1. } will search a ROOT between 0. 1. > with a best guess of 0.5 (where to start the search) > If you provide a good approx. the root will be found faster. > The best guess may also have units attached to it. [ON] key press should give the current list of three numbers > and you can start over. > Pressing any other key while in the SOLVER > will show the current two guesses in the status area. > I tested this in my HP 48GX and in my HP 49G I get an Extremum...and that is another story > which I hope that Nick will tell you! > then solved for X. The HP49G almost immediatelly returned X:0. So far so good. Then Is stored 0. (the solution itself) in X and solved again for X. Result: X:0 . OK. I tried again storing .5 in X prior to solving for X. The returned solution is now not 0. but X: 3.41071649952E-6 . EXPR returns Expr:0. Understandable: Starting at .5 and variating X to lower values eventually comes to X=3.41071649952E-6 . Now, e^(3.41071649952E-6) evaluates to 1.00000341072 on the HP49G. e^(3.41071649952E-6)-3.41071649952E-6 evaluates to 1. due to roundoffs. And e^(3.41071649952E-6)-3.41071649952E-6-1 evaluates to 0. So the numeric solver, which also evaluates the function values for different values of X, just stops here. The reason for finding X:0. when we give an initial guess 0. or {0.5 0. 1.} for X , is that then the solver has a start or a boundary value that equals the solution itself. If we solve again with an initial guess of {0.5 -.1 .8} , then the returned solution is X:(-2.29964292526E-6). (For the same reasons as above.) extremal value of 0. but that is OK, or did you mean something else Veli-Pekka? So (in this case) menu 30. seems to do its job OK, or Nick seems to be too blockie to understand what the problem is >I am able to invoke the solver (using 30 MENU) >> but cannot automatically solve for one of the variables >> and return back, without any user interaction. > 'expression' 'name' guess(es) ROOT > Example: > 'EXP(X)-LN(X)=5.' 'X' 1. ROOT > The result 1.71152201393 is both returned on the stack >and stored in the named variable 'X' > Note that the equation is supplied on the stack >(reserved variable 'EQ' is not used). > Any other variables in the equation must have >predefined numeric values (units are permitted). > Guess(es) means either one numeric value, >or a list of from one to three numeric values, >which the solver will try first. > A guess of 0. is equivalent to the list { 0. 1. } > Menu 30 is basically just a convenient user interface for invoking >the ROOT command; the expression is taken from the variable 'EQ' >and the guess(es) are taken from the initial contents >of the variable being solved for, or { 0. 1. } >if the variable doesn't initially exist. > > ((o)) Best wishes from http://www.mum.edu > > . > ==== Seen: > [Guesses] { 0. 1. } will search a ROOT _between_ the numbers. Only if the expression has opposite signs at the two guesses; otherwise it looks outside the original range, as you'd expect. The calc actually always needs two guesses to get started, so if you supply only one guess, the calc supplies another, by changing one digit of the mantissa (IIRC the 7th digit of any non-zero guess); then it usually looks outside that range, because those two initial guesses are mighty close together :) -[]- . ==== I'm hoping someone might be able to help me. I'm attempting to symbolically integrate Cos (ln x). What I get is: INT(COS(LN(Xt)),Xt,X) With my TI-89 I get x/2*cos(ln x) + x/2*(sin(ln x) which is the correct answer. Why won't the HP seemingly handle this or possibly what am I doing wrong? I put cos(ln x) into register y and x into register x then choose Risch. Help thanks ce ==== I would just love to tell you RTFM but there is none to read :-) The HP49G, unlike the TI89 auto-junk, needs a knowledgable user to master. Try integration by parts (IBP command) and then start complaining. !Demeter! ==== I'm hoping someone might be able to help me. I'm attempting to symbolically >integrate Cos (ln x). What I get is: INT(COS(LN(Xt)),Xt,X) With my TI-89 I get x/2*cos(ln x) + x/2*(sin(ln x) which is the correct >answer. Why won't the HP seemingly handle this or possibly what am I doing wrong? I >put cos(ln x) into register y and x into register x then choose Risch. >... One of the many reasons why some people prefer TI89 over the HP49 :-( One possible way to overcome this unfortunate for the HP49 situation: With INT(COS(LN(Xt)),Xt,X) still on the stack, hit 'Xt=EXP(U)' and then SUBST and after that EVAL, and you will have the same correct answer as the TI89 gives immediately. Hope that helps, ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralf Fritzsch Bundesanstalt fuer Wasserbau Federal Waterways Engineering and Research Dienststelle Kueste Institute - Department Hamburg ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ==== c_elber@anonemoose.com says... > With INT(COS(LN(Xt)),Xt,X) still on the stack, hit 'Xt=EXP(U)' and then > SUBST and after that EVAL, and you will have the same correct answer as > the TI89 gives immediately. Ralf; this type of thing in the future I know what to do. Othertimes I've done integrations I've seen this. Will setting Xt=e to the U always work? What precisely is Xt? Why does the HP sub this in I've seen it do it in other integrals what does it mean? I've got Urroz's books now but don't see this (although between the two volumes there is a whole lotta ground to cover) if you know where it is in the Urroz books I'd be happy to read on it. Unfortunately attempting to learn the math AND the calc at the same time makes it pretty tough. Carmen ==== >With INT(COS(LN(Xt)),Xt,X) still on the stack, hit 'Xt=EXP(U)' and then >SUBST and after that EVAL, and you will have the same correct answer as >the TI89 gives immediately. Ralf; > this type of thing in the future I know what to do. Othertimes I've done > integrations I've seen this. Will setting Xt=e to the U always work? What > Carmen OK, this trick is called substitution and allows you to move ahead with integration by parts (IBP). Note that you may write cos(ln(x))=cos(u) where u=lnx so that by raising both sides to the e power allows us to rewrite it as e^u=e^lnx=x and thus dx=e^u du. Now you can rewrite the original integrand as cos(ln(x))dx=e^u cos(u)du. Feed this stuff to level 2 and in level 1 give it the integral of e^u which is, again, e^u (even TI users know that, I think). Switch to complex mode and type IBP. Now switch to real mode and do INTVX. Finally add the result and you get the formula you so much desire :-) It is rather involved, I admit, but with an HP you can become better if you know where to start from although it won't teach you math! Do not forget to look IBP in the AUG for details. !Demeter! ==== is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. thanks in advance Martin ==== > is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. thanks in advance Martin So, with the definition of ERFC as: << -> X << 0. 0.5 X UTPN DUP + >> you can solve your problem: 'ERFC(u)=0.0001' 'u' 1.0 ROOT yields 2.75106390571 Werner ==== thanks just what I was looking for >is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? > And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. > thanks in advance > Martin So, with the definition of ERFC as: > << > -> X > << 0. 0.5 X UTPN DUP + > > you can solve your problem: 'ERFC(u)=0.0001' > 'u' > 1.0 > ROOT yields 2.75106390571 Werner ==== The Bessel library from hpcalc has many special functions, incl. one called ERF. Maybe you can use some of those functions? Gjermund ... > is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. thanks in advance Martin > ==== > is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. thanks in advance Martin ==== > is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? >And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. >thanks in advance >Martin > InverseErfc(x) = InverseErf(1-x) So if you have an InverseErf function... Let's see. According to http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Erfc.html, erfc(x) := a*INT(x,oo,exp(-t^2),t) with a = 2/SQRT(PI) According to the AUG, the 48/49 have a function UTPN defined as UTPN(m,v,x) := b*INT(x,oo,exp(-(t-m)^2/(2*v),t) with b = 1/SQRT(2*PI*v) So.. erfc(x) = 2*UTPN(0.,0.5,x) or @ERFC << -> x << 0. 0.5 x UTPN DUP + >> Werner Huysegoms ==== I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of one do they? ==== Well, I don't really need a picture > I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of one do they? ==== Salut, CdB Loan a digital camera from your company take the picture and publish it on your web-site where we can admire it's beauty. > Well, I don't really need a picture >I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of one do they? ==== Remember, beauty is more than skin deep! Steve > Salut, CdB > Loan a digital camera from your company > take the picture and publish it on your web-site > where we can admire it's beauty. >Well, I don't really need a picture > >I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of one do they? > ==== Please send me a manual of HP 15C. Andy.- ==== > Please send me a manual of HP 15C. It's on CD1 at http://www.hpmuseum.org/cd/cddesc.htm Send Dave US$15 plus postage and you'll get it, along with lots more (e.g. the HP15C Advanced Functions handbook); ordering info is near the bottom of the page. Of course, manuals are cheaper by the carload ($35 for the entire collection of 5 cds, which you'll never finish reading :) ((o)) . ==== Andy schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Please send me a manual of HP 15C. > Please take a look at the classified ads section on www.hpmuseum.org ==== : I thank your answer but it doesn't serve me: I live in Chile and it is very difficult to obtain those CD's. The idea was to obtain a basic guide of the HP 15C... Greetings, Andy. Hellstern <.Hellstern@T-Online.de> escribi.97 en el mensaje > Andy schrieb im Newsbeitrag >Please send me a manual of HP 15C. > Please take a look at the classified ads section on www.hpmuseum.org ==== > : > I thank your answer but it doesn't serve me: I live in Chile and it is very > difficult to obtain those CD's. > The idea was to obtain a basic guide of the HP 15C... How is it any harder to receive CDs in Chile than to receive books? ==== Eric: I don't understand your question... In any event already I have the Owner's Handbook (November 1985) of the HP 15C, Greetings, Andy. ------------ Eric Smith escribi.97 en el mensaje >: >I thank your answer but it doesn't serve me: I live in Chile and it is very >difficult to obtain those CD's. >The idea was to obtain a basic guide of the HP 15C... How is it any harder to receive CDs in Chile than to receive books? ==== Why would obtaining a physical guide be any easier than a CD rom? I don't understand that. I must be missing something. -- * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * * but I own them. * > : > I thank your answer but it doesn't serve me: I live in Chile and it is very > difficult to obtain those CD's. > The idea was to obtain a basic guide of the HP 15C... > Greetings, > Andy. Hellstern <.Hellstern@T-Online.de> escribi.97 en el mensaje >Andy schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> Please send me a manual of HP 15C. >Please take a look at the classified ads section on www.hpmuseum.org > ==== don't. For instance what do the HP-1x series use in them? Are they Saturn based? -- john R. Latala jrlatala@golden.net ==== > don't. For instance what do the HP-1x series use in them? Are they Saturn > based? The Voyager series (HP-10C, -11C, -12C, -15C, and -16C) use the Nut processor that was first used in the HP-41C (Coconut). For many years the Voyagers used the same actual processor die (but in a QFP package rather than a DIP). Later cost-reduced versions of the 12C have integrated more functions onto fewer chips, resulting in a single-chip version, but the CPU still has the same architecture. The HP-71B, clamshell, Pioneer, and graphing calculators use variants of Saturn. The HP 10BII uses a Mitsubishi processor that is a 6502-derivative. I have no idea what sort of processor is used in the HP 6S, 6S Solar, and 30S. They were not designed by HP. ==== >don't. For instance what do the HP-1x series use in them? Are they Saturn >based? The HP-71B was the first calculator to use the Saturn. Everything after it made use of the Saturn except the HP-1x series and some of the newest algebraic models. ( HP-10BII I believe employs some type of microcontroller to emulate the old Saturn chip that the 10B used to use. I don't what the 30S and the 6S use ) The HP-1x series used a derivative of the HP-41 NUT processor. See http://www.hpmuseum.org/tech10.htm . ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== In message , Jonathan Busby >The HP-71B was the first calculator to use the Saturn. Everything after >it made use of the Saturn except the HP-1x series and some of the >newest algebraic models. ( HP-10BII I believe employs some type of >microcontroller to emulate the old Saturn chip that the 10B used to >use. I don't what the 30S and the 6S use ) The HP10BII uses a 6502 core. No emulation - the math routines were re-written in C just for it. This fact brought to you courtesy of the HPCC Conference in London, 21-22 September 2002. -- ==== On Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:30:15 +0100, Bruce Horrocks >In message , Jonathan Busby >>The HP-71B was the first calculator to use the Saturn. Everything after >>it made use of the Saturn except the HP-1x series and some of the >>newest algebraic models. ( HP-10BII I believe employs some type of >>microcontroller to emulate the old Saturn chip that the 10B used to >>use. I don't what the 30S and the 6S use ) The HP10BII uses a 6502 core. No emulation - the math routines were >re-written in C just for it. This fact brought to you courtesy of the HPCC Conference in London, >21-22 September 2002. > Hmmm... I guess I was remembering wrong. (that's a surprise ;) So the correct term should be simulate? (at least for the math routines) For the rest, I don't know if the 10BII resembles the 10B, just with prettier packaging. Maybe someone that has used it can chime in. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== > Hmmm... I guess I was remembering wrong. (that's a surprise ;) So the > correct term should be simulate? (at least for the math routines) No, it's not simulating anything either. The code has been carefully written from scratch to produce the same numeric results. In other words, it's new code implementing the same algorithms. ==== On 27 Sep 2002 17:44:38 -0700, Eric Smith >> Hmmm... I guess I was remembering wrong. (that's a surprise ;) So the >> correct term should be simulate? (at least for the math routines) No, it's not simulating anything either. The code has been carefully >written from scratch to produce the same numeric results. In other >words, it's new code implementing the same algorithms. > But this is the definition of simulate. ;) To rephrase the second part of my question I was wondering if the user interface has also been rewritten to produce similar behavior. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== before we're getting too off-topic: Consider the 'HP-41CV Emulator Card' for the HP-48 as a simulation, in contrast to the program from HrastProgrammer which is an emulation. The HP/Zengrange card just simulates to be something like an HP-41, HrastProgrammer's software emulates the HP-41 hardware in software, so the original ROM images can be used. Jonathan Busby schrieb im Newsbeitrag > On 27 Sep 2002 17:44:38 -0700, Eric Smith >> Hmmm... I guess I was remembering wrong. (that's a surprise ;) So the >> correct term should be simulate? (at least for the math routines) >No, it's not simulating anything either. The code has been carefully >written from scratch to produce the same numeric results. In other >words, it's new code implementing the same algorithms. But this is the definition of simulate. ;) To rephrase the second part of my question I was wondering if the user > interface has also been rewritten to produce similar behavior. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Jonathan Busby - before replying. > ==== On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:47:00 +0200, Hellstern before we're getting too off-topic: Consider the 'HP-41CV Emulator Card' for the HP-48 as a simulation, >in contrast to the program from HrastProgrammer which is an emulation. The HP/Zengrange card just simulates to be something like an HP-41, >HrastProgrammer's software emulates the HP-41 hardware in software, >so the original ROM images can be used. > These are exactly the definitions I was thinking of when I used emulate and simulate . There are a multitude of software projects that describe themselves as emulators and conform to the definition of something that replicates the external and *internal* behavior of some architecture by accepting the same data/programs and producing the same results. ( see http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulate ) I can also think of many instances where the word simulation is applied to something that replicates the external ( ie. interface ) behavior of something to a close degree but operates differently internally. Some examples are a flight simulator, a mechanical arcade machine simulator, a HDL test bench program with behavioral simulation of say memory chips , and the list goes on. This would fit with my usage of simulate to describe the 10BII math functions because of the fact that they have the same external behavior as the 10B functions but on a low level they operate differently internally. Of course, there are also many counterexamples to the above. I think it's just a matter of personal preference and is also dependent on what context you're working in. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== > I think > it's just a matter of personal preference and is also dependent on > what context you're working in. Yes. And in the context of computers, the engineers who developed the System/360 at IBM *invented* emulation and defined what it means. I have never seen any historical record of the word emulate being used in any reference to computers prior to 1964, though certainly the word existed with non-computer-specific meaning before that. Unless there's a very good reason for it, why should we abuse the term to mean something else? That can only lead to confusion. ==== > Consider the 'HP-41CV Emulator Card' for the HP-48 as a simulation, > in contrast to the program from HrastProgrammer which is an emulation. The HP/Zengrange card just simulates to be something like an HP-41, > HrastProgrammer's software emulates the HP-41 hardware in software, > so the original ROM images can be used. Except that emulation was defined by its inventors at IBM to mean simulation with hardware and/or microcode assistance. HrastProgrammer's software simulates the 41 hardware at a low level, but it doesn't have any special hardware or microcode assistance, so it is not emulation. _IBM's Early Computers_, Charles J. Bashe et al _IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems_, Emerson W. Pugh et al _Building IBM: Shaping an Industry and its Technology, Emerson W. Pugh _IBM Dictionary of Computing_, George McDaniel ==== The great and momentous Simulation vs. Emulation debate rages on! Prior competing definitions and historical references omitted, but just to add some more chaos to the above: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=simulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=presently When I use a word, Humpty-Dumpty said, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less - Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass... (1872) And I am right, and you are right, and all is right as right can be - W. S. Gilbert (The Mikado) . ==== The great and momentous Simulation vs. Emulation debate rages on! Prior competing definitions and historical references omitted, but just to add some more chaos to the above: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=simulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=presently When I use a word, Humpty-Dumpty said, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less - Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass... (1872) And I am right, and you are right, and all is right as right can be - W. S. Gilbert (The Mikado) . ==== Eric Smith schrieb im Newsbeitrag >Consider the 'HP-41CV Emulator Card' for the HP-48 as a simulation, >in contrast to the program from HrastProgrammer which is an emulation. > The HP/Zengrange card just simulates to be something like an HP-41, >HrastProgrammer's software emulates the HP-41 hardware in software, >so the original ROM images can be used. Except that emulation was defined by its inventors at IBM to mean > simulation with hardware and/or microcode assistance. HrastProgrammer's > software simulates the 41 hardware at a low level, but it doesn't have > any special hardware or microcode assistance, so it is not emulation. > It was defined by people at IBM for their type of emulation, where is the problem that other people may have redefined the meaning? Take, for example, any terminal emulator program for a PC. None of those can rely on a real terminal hardware, but I never heard someone talk about those programs as simulators. Take Emu48: It uses the original ROM images, so it can be considered as emulation. Even the HP/Zengrange product I mentioned in my earlier post used 'Emulator' as part of the official HP product name, which I consider wrong. It doesn't matter if it's tied to hardware, like the 8086 emulation in a Pentium processor, or in software, like Emu48 (or nearly any other emulator out there) It's just an other abstraction layer. It seems that the words 'simulation' and 'emulation' and their meaning can be interpreted somehow If there is enough interest, you could ask the author of Emu48 and the other guys about their understanding regarding this topic. However, I don't care too much about the difference. ==== > Except that emulation was defined by its inventors at IBM to mean > simulation with hardware and/or microcode assistance. HrastProgrammer's > software simulates the 41 hardware at a low level, but it doesn't have > any special hardware or microcode assistance, so it is not emulation. > It was defined by people at IBM for their type of emulation, > where is the problem that other people may have redefined the meaning? It was defined by people at IBM for a new form of computer simulation that involved hardware or microcode assistance. As the inventors of this technique, they certainly have some priority in terms of defining what the word means in this field. Certainly the word emulate existed before 1964, but not with any meaning particularly significant to computers. If the other people you refer to have actually invented something new, then by all means they should get to name it. But they haven't. They're just trying to change the definition of a word for no good reason. Given that there is a perfectly good word (simulate) to describe software that makes one computer execute software for another *without* special microcode and hardware, using the word emulate to mean the same thing does not provide any benefit. It is useful to have two words that describe the same process with or without the hardware/microcode assistance; making one of those words refer to both just confuses the issue. > Take, for example, any terminal emulator program for a PC. > None of those can rely on a real terminal hardware, > but I never heard someone talk about those programs as simulators. True. I'm not sure how that terminology came into place. But it is a different situation than making one computer execute instructions written for another. > Take Emu48: It uses the original ROM images, > so it can be considered as emulation. Emu48 does a darned good job of simulating the HP 48 hardware, and running the ROMs. But calling it an emulator does not change its nature, nor does it clarify anything. There is a distinction between instruction-level simulation and high-level functional simulation, but this is completely orthogonal to the distinction between simulation and emulation. If we use your definitions of simulate and emulate, it would suggest that a terminal emulator should really be called a terminal simulator, since it doesn't run the ROM code of the original terminal. > If I write some software for the HP-48, I can test the *actual* binary for > the real machine in Emu48. > Emu48 runs exactly the same binary as the real hardware. If it were a simulation, I would have to write maybe similar, but > *different* code for it. > That's exactly what distinguishes an emulation from a simulation. No, it's not. I cited some authoritative references for the definition of emulation. Can you cite some for your definition? ==== To make it short: Even IBM talks of 'Terminal Emulation' when they talk about software for a specific machine (e.g. PC) to do as if it were another. http://www.networking.ibm.com/525/525files.html and many many other places. So if even the inventors use the word 'emulation' for software alone w/o hardware/microcode support, Emu48 is an emulator. The text behind the following link http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulate is printed below (after the '>'): >Computer Science. >To imitate the function of (another system), > Yes >as by modifications to hardware or software > Yes. Note *or software* >that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, > Yes >execute the same programs, > Yes >and achieve the same results as the imitated system. > Yes According to the above definition Emu48 is an emulator. Period. ==== X >Take Emu48: It uses the original ROM images, >so it can be considered as emulation. Emu48 does a darned good job of simulating the HP 48 hardware, and running > the ROMs. But calling it an emulator does not change its nature, nor does > it clarify anything. X I still prefer to use the word emulation here, since the hardware is also simulated, not just the software eg. userlanguage & interface. So I disagree with Eric (for the first time :) It's time to change the old IBM definition!! Veli-Pekka PS: Is firmware the ROM of a calc or the microcode in the CPU ??? ~( :-o) ==== The great and momentous Simulation vs. Emulation debate rages on! Prior competing definitions and historical references omitted, but just to add some more chaos to the above: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=simulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=presently When I use a word, Humpty-Dumpty said, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less - Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass... (1872) And I am right, and you are right, and all is right as right can be - W. S. Gilbert (The Mikado) . ==== The great and momentous Simulation vs. Emulation debate rages on! Prior competing definitions and historical references omitted, but just to add some more chaos to the above: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=simulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=presently When I use a word, Humpty-Dumpty said, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less - Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass... (1872) And I am right, and you are right, and all is right as right can be - W. S. Gilbert (The Mikado) . ==== > No, it's not simulating anything either. The code has been carefully > written from scratch to produce the same numeric results. In other > words, it's new code implementing the same algorithms. > But this is the definition of simulate. ;) simulate (v.t. [imp. & p.p. Simulated; p. pr. & vb. n. Simulating] To assume the mere appearance of, without the reality; to assume the signs or indications of, flasely; to counterfeit; to feign. -- Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary If I buy a 2002 Mazda to replace my 1992 model, it will still get me to and from work just fine. But I don't claim that the 2002 model simulates the 1992 model. The 10BII has genuine math routines. They don't simulate anything. ==== On 27 Sep 2002 19:16:13 -0700, Eric Smith >> No, it's not simulating anything either. The code has been carefully >> written from scratch to produce the same numeric results. In other >> words, it's new code implementing the same algorithms. > But this is the definition of simulate. ;) simulate (v.t. [imp. & p.p. Simulated; p. pr. & vb. n. Simulating] To >assume the mere appearance of, without the reality; to assume the signs >or indications of, flasely; to counterfeit; to feign. > -- Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary If I buy a 2002 Mazda to replace my 1992 model, it will still get me >to and from work just fine. But I don't claim that the 2002 model >simulates the 1992 model. The 10BII has genuine math routines. They don't simulate anything. I think I know the definition of a common English word - I've been speaking the language for 22 years. Perhaps you need to work out some personal issues since you feel the need to patronize people over extremely trivial matters. If you want to nitpick, then consulting http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=simulate gives a definition which reads : 1. a. To have or take on the appearance, form, or sound of; imitate. b. To make in imitation of or as a substitute for. 2. To make a pretense of; feign: simulate interest. 3. To create a representation or model of (a physical system or particular situation, for example). So, you are saying the following sentence is semantically incorrect ? : The new math functions take on the behavior of the old ones while being different internally. Replace take on with simulate. I think if you browse google you'll find thousands of sentences that fit with this usage. Wow. I thought I had finished English class a long time ago. And of all places, I'm relearning the joy of this great language right here. Let me ask you a question. Do you point out subtle differences in your interpretation of word semantics with *everyone* you talk to, or do you just do it here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== > Do you point out subtle differences in your interpretation of word > semantics with *everyone* you talk to, or do you just do it here? No. Having published five simulators as free software (GPL), and having contributed code to a simulator that tens of thousands of people use (maybe more), I think I have some idea as to what the term means. I'll concede that other people might be more expert in this area than I am. You can obviously choose to use whatever definition for simulate you like, but I don't know anyone else who would view a piece of code rewritten to run natively on a different processor to be a simulation. That's certainly not common usage in the industry. More typically that might be referred to as porting, although that term can also be used in reference to making relatively small changes to source code written in a high level language for use on a different platform. Another sure way to start an argument is to bring up the difference between simulate and emulate; nearly everyone uses the latter when they mean the former. ==== On 27 Sep 2002 20:56:37 -0700, Eric Smith >Another sure way to start an argument is to bring up the difference >between simulate and emulate; nearly everyone uses the latter when >they mean the former. So if I said The new math functions emulate the behavior of the old ones then would you be happy? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== > Another sure way to start an argument is to bring up the difference > between simulate and emulate; nearly everyone uses the latter when > they mean the former. > So if I said The new math functions emulate the behavior of the old > ones then would you be happy? Not especially. The term emulate as applied to computers was first used for publication by IBM in 1964. They defined emulation as the use of one processor or system to simulate another through the use of hardware and/or microcode assistance. Specifically, various IBM 360 models offered optional emulation features which included extended microcode to allow the processor to run code for older IBM computers, such as the 1401 and 7090. In more recent years, the most common form of emulation is the In Circuit Emulator (ICE), a tool commonly used for embedded system development. I think the most appropriate terms to describe what the software engineers did to produce the HP 10BII firmware are port (as mentioned in my last posting) or reimplement. ==== On 27 Sep 2002 22:50:15 -0700, Eric Smith >> Another sure way to start an argument is to bring up the difference >> between simulate and emulate; nearly everyone uses the latter when >> they mean the former. > So if I said The new math functions emulate the behavior of the old >> ones then would you be happy? Not especially. The term emulate as applied to computers was first used >for publication by IBM in 1964. They defined emulation as the use of one >processor or system to simulate another through the use of hardware and/or >microcode assistance. Specifically, various IBM 360 models offered optional >emulation features which included extended microcode to allow the processor >to run code for older IBM computers, such as the 1401 and 7090. In more recent years, the most common form of emulation is the In Circuit >Emulator (ICE), a tool commonly used for embedded system development. I think the most appropriate terms to describe what the software engineers did >to produce the HP 10BII firmware are port (as mentioned in my last posting) >or reimplement. Since I don't want this to draw on forever I'll just state that I don't agree and leave it at that. But perhaps if we use a more neutral synonym we can satisfy everyone's need for verbal perfection. The new math functions [blank] the behavior of the old ones. [blank] = imitate|copy|mirror|reflect|reproduce|match|parallel Take your pick ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== Jonathan Busby schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I >don't. For instance what do the HP-1x series use in them? Are they Saturn >based? > The HP-71B was the first calculator to use the Saturn. Everything > after it made use of the Saturn except the HP-1x series and some of > the newest algebraic models. ( HP-10BII I believe employs some type of > microcontroller to emulate the old Saturn chip that the 10B used to > use. I don't what the 30S and the 6S use ) The Bert, Lewis, Clarke and Yorke are special chips having a Saturn kernel. The following list may be incompleted, because I made it from my mind. - Saturn HP71B, HP18C, HP28C - 1LU7 Bert HP10B, HP20S - Lewis HP17B, 17BII, 19B, 19BII, 27S, 28S, 42S - Clarke HP48S, HP48SX - Yorke HP38G, HP39G, HP40G, HP48G, HP48G+, HP48GX, HP49G All other HP calculators don't use a Saturn processor kernel and that are of course much more that I listed above. Christoph ==== On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:14:34 +0200, Christoph Giesselink >The Bert, Lewis, Clarke and Yorke are special chips having a Saturn kernel. >The following list may be incompleted, because I made it from my mind. - Saturn >HP71B, HP18C, HP28C - 1LU7 Bert >HP10B, HP20S - Lewis >HP17B, 17BII, 19B, 19BII, 27S, 28S, 42S - Clarke >HP48S, HP48SX - Yorke >HP38G, HP39G, HP40G, HP48G, HP48G+, HP48GX, HP49G >All other HP calculators don't use a Saturn processor kernel and that are of >course much more that I listed above. Christoph > There's also the Saca (Sacajawea) chip which is used by the 14B, 22S, 32S, and 32SII . (if my sources are correct) According to the same sources, the Saca is basically just a Bert but with more RAM and ROM ( 16 KB and 512 KB respectively ) and with a one line alphanumeric display controller instead of a 7 segment one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== Jonathan Busby schrieb im Newsbeitrag There's also the Saca (Sacajawea) chip which is used by the 14B, 22S, > 32S, and 32SII . (if my sources are correct) According to the same > sources, the Saca is basically just a Bert but with more RAM and ROM ( > 16 KB and 512 KB respectively ) and with a one line alphanumeric > display controller instead of a 7 segment one. Are you sure that this is correct? The Lewis doc say in chapter 6: The chip has a 5th configuration register that is unused in the LEWIS chip. It will be used for RAM configuration on the SACJAWEA chip. The Bert doc says nothing about the Saca chip. But you're absolutely right in the case that there's a chip missing between the Bert and Clarke powered machines. Christoph ==== On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:22:50 +0200, Christoph Giesselink >Jonathan Busby schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> There's also the Saca (Sacajawea) chip which is used by the 14B, 22S, >> 32S, and 32SII . (if my sources are correct) According to the same >> sources, the Saca is basically just a Bert but with more RAM and ROM ( >> 16 KB and 512 KB respectively ) and with a one line alphanumeric >> display controller instead of a 7 segment one. Are you sure that this is correct? The Lewis doc say in chapter 6: The chip has a 5th configuration register that is unused in the LEWIS chip. >It will be used for RAM configuration on the SACJAWEA chip. The Bert doc says nothing about the Saca chip. But you're absolutely right in the case that there's a chip missing between >the Bert and Clarke powered machines. Christoph > The RAM/ROM sizes are wrong due to a typo. I corrected myself here : http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ba2apu89lrv46v4tm8ifpees1162pl7fcb%404a x.com It should be 512 bytes of RAM and 16 KB of ROM. These numbers are from Craig A. Finseth's HPDATABase and Marc Staps book Codenames of HP Handheld Calculators and PDAs: facts and speculations (in this particular book he states that this information was obtained from Dennis York, former manager of the Handheld Products Division in Corvallis, 1989) I'm sure there is a Sacajawae (1LE2) chip from the fact that there would be a missing Saturn chip otherwise and various trusted sources mention it. (including ones other than those mentioned) The statement the Saca is basically just a Bert may be incorrect if the Bert uses a different version of the processor core or is substantially different from the Lewis in other respects. (other than the display controller and RAM/ROM sizes) If that's the case then maybe it should read the Saca is basically just a Lewis but with a 1 line alphanumeric display controller instead of a 2x16 character dot matrix display one . ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== On Sun, 29 Sep 2002 19:44:44 -0500, Jonathan Busby >The statement the Saca is basically just a Bert may be incorrect if >the Bert uses a different version of the processor core or is >substantially different from the Lewis in other respects. (other than >the display controller and RAM/ROM sizes) If that's the case then >maybe it should read the Saca is basically just a Lewis but with a 1 >line alphanumeric display controller instead of a 2x16 character dot >matrix display one . Argg! That should be 2x22 character . ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:37:37 -0500, Jonathan Busby >There's also the Saca (Sacajawea) chip which is used by the 14B, 22S, >32S, and 32SII . (if my sources are correct) According to the same >sources, the Saca is basically just a Bert but with more RAM and ROM ( >16 KB and 512 KB respectively ) and with a one line alphanumeric >display controller instead of a 7 segment one. Well, I tried to cancel that message but no luck. My fingers are getting ahead of me again. ;) That should be 512 *bytes* of RAM and 16 KB of ROM. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== http://www.hpmuseum.org/saturn.htm http://www.hpmuseum.org/techcpu.htm ((o)) . ==== I was looking through my HP museum CDROMS and ended up looking at some of the HP71 documentation. Has somebody written an HP71 emulator? One patterned along the same lines of Warren Furlow's Virtual-41 would be quite slick. I like the way V41 uses a picture of a real 41 as the user interface. Very nice job. -- john R. Latala jrlatala@golden.net ==== schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I was looking through my HP museum CDROMS and ended up looking at some of > the HP71 documentation. Has somebody written an HP71 emulator? > J-F Garnier published a HP71B emulator at http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/2000/. But the emulator is _without_ the ROM images (copyright reasons). So please don't ask the author or any other for them. It's your job to get them from your own HP71. Christoph ==== It was written: > J-F Garnier published an HP71B emulator at > http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/2000/ > But the emulator is _without_ the ROM images (copyright reasons). > So please don't ask the author or any other for them. > It's your job to get them from your own HP71. Isn't that curious, given what is said at http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp71.htm An Open Architecture with Documentation: The HP-71B was designed as an open machine. HP made available detailed documentation which described OS information (including full source code), file formats, how to create BASIC extensions, etc. Considering that ROMs are now freely published (made somewhat necessary for flash updates), and considering also the success which JYA had in convincing HP to allow publication of old roms (even for the HP48GX, which you can now download with permission from your favorite HP calc site), it might be possible to go further and get others freed from bondage -- if, that is, you can find anyone left at HP who has the faintest idea of what has transpired before. JYA, is that person who issued the permission letter for HP48 still around, or anyone else who can make any further decisions, or who can figure out that it would be mighty difficult for this monumental step to impact sales (or is another Basic calc in the works -- the HP89/92, perhaps?) Oh, well. ((o)) . ==== I enter a stress tensor equation (3X3) 76.6 12.4 0 12.4 0 0 0 0 0 I type EGV to get the eigen vector and eigen values. It returns the correct eigen values of: 78.6 -1.96 0 My problem is that the eigen vectors it returns are wrong. The x,y,z component satisfy the following: x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 1 (based on vector math and stress analysis) since it's suppose to return a unit vector describing the principal axis. There seems to be a roundoff error in numbers close to 1. Here is what the calc returns (I'm in STD and not FIX of course): 1.00 -0.158 0 0.158 1.00 0 0.00 0.00 1 Here is what I find by hand: 0.987 0.128 0 0.159 -0.992 0 0.00 0.00 1 What's the problem?? Is this a purist mathematics issue or is the calc wrong?? Thanx all Steph ==== > I enter a stress tensor equation (3X3) 76.6 12.4 0 > 12.4 0 0 > 0 0 0 I type EGV to get the eigen vector and eigen values. It returns the correct > eigen values of: 78.6 > -1.96 > 0 My problem is that the eigen vectors it returns are wrong. The x,y,z > component satisfy the following: x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 1 (based on vector math > and stress analysis) since it's suppose to return a unit vector describing > the principal axis. There seems to be a roundoff error in numbers close to > 1. Here is what the calc returns (I'm in STD and not FIX of course): 1.00 -0.158 0 > 0.158 1.00 0 > 0.00 0.00 1 Here is what I find by hand: 0.987 0.128 0 > 0.159 -0.992 0 > 0.00 0.00 1 What's the problem?? Is this a purist mathematics issue or is the calc > wrong?? Thanx all Steph EGV return eigenvectors scaled so that the largest component equals 1. Eigenvectors are determined relative to a constant; if e is an eigenvector, then so is k*e, with k real. The 'normalized' eigenvectors (norm = 1) are: 0.98777 -0.15592 0.00000 0.15592 0.98777 0.00000 0.00000 0.00000 1.00000 so your second eigenvector is wrong, or a typo. Werner Huysegoms ==== , > I enter a stress tensor equation (3X3) 76.6 12.4 0 > 12.4 0 0 > 0 0 0 I type EGV to get the eigen vector and eigen values. It returns the correct > eigen values of: 78.6 > -1.96 > 0 My problem is that the eigen vectors it returns are wrong. The x,y,z > component satisfy the following: x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 1 (based on vector math > and stress analysis) since it's suppose to return a unit vector describing > the principal axis. There seems to be a roundoff error in numbers close to > 1. Here is what the calc returns (I'm in STD and not FIX of course): 1.00 -0.158 0 > 0.158 1.00 0 > 0.00 0.00 1 Here is what I find by hand: 0.987 0.128 0 > 0.159 -0.992 0 > 0.00 0.00 1 What's the problem?? Is this a purist mathematics issue or is the calc > wrong?? Thanx all Steph For simplicity in internal calculation, the HP49 returns eigenvectors with each having coordinate equal to 1. In ral, these eigenvectors will not be normalized (will not have length 1) but they will be pointing in the correct directions. If you want normalized eigenvectors, you must divide each by its length. When you do that in this case, you will find that the result matches what you found by hand. If this normalizing of the columns of a matrix is something you will be wanting to do frequently, you should write a program to do it. If you are going to need this done ==== I have some problems with the following Matrix: - - | 0 1 -1 | | -2 3 -1 | | -1 1 1 | - - When trying ro calculate the Eigenvectors (EGV-Command) of this Matrix with my HP49G (V1.19-6) I get the Message: EGV Error - Matrix not diagonizable But the same task is no problem for my HP48 (Metakernel, Erable and Alg48 installed). Has anyone an idea why this happens to be an error on the HP49G? Any help wold be appreciated! Greetings Bernd ==== <3d934e75$0$30462$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>, I have some problems with the following Matrix: > - - > | 0 1 -1 | > | -2 3 -1 | > | -1 1 1 | > - - When trying ro calculate the Eigenvectors (EGV-Command) of this Matrix with > my HP49G (V1.19-6) I get the Message: EGV Error - Matrix not diagonizable But the same task is no problem for my HP48 > (Metakernel, Erable and Alg48 installed). Has anyone an idea why this happens to be an error on the HP49G? > Any help wold be appreciated! > Greetings > Bernd > If you are in approximate mode when you enter the matrix and use the EGV command, everything works fine. But doing it all in exact mode, I received the same error message you received. If you need exactness, try doing it approximately and then using the XQ or ->Q command. Sometimes this gives correct exact results. ==== If you are in approximate mode when you enter the matrix and use the > EGV command, everything works fine. > No, it does not work fine. It just looks like. As I said, you will get two vectors for the eigenspace 1 which are colinear, and that's bad. The reason is that the matrix is *not* diagonalizable. This is BTW another reason to have symbolic diagonalization. ==== So the HP 49G CAS is even better than Mable in this particular case?! > If you are in approximate mode when you enter the matrix and use the >EGV command, everything works fine. No, it does not work fine. It just looks like. > As I said, you will get two vectors > for the eigenspace 1 which are colinear, and that's bad. > The reason is that the matrix is *not* diagonalizable. This > is BTW another reason to have symbolic diagonalization. > ==== > If you need exactness, try doing it approximately and then using the > XQ or ->Q command. Sometimes this gives correct exact results. I can't think of a case where you need (or would want!) exact eigenvectors? As Bernard Parisse says, the input matrix isn't diagonizable, so another approach has to be chosen. ==== > I can't think of a case where you need (or would want!) exact eigenvectors? As Bernard Parisse says, the input matrix isn't diagonizable, so another > approach has to be chosen. According to Bernard exact eigenvectors are very usefull and exact LU matrix decomposition is not. He did not elaborated why. Jack ==== > I can't think of a case where you need (or would want!) exact eigenvectors? > As Bernard Parisse says, the input matrix isn't diagonizable, so another >approach has to be chosen. According to Bernard exact eigenvectors are very usefull and > exact LU matrix decomposition is not. He did not elaborated why. I'll offer an example for exact eigenvectors: to find a closed form for raising a matrix to the nth power. If you can write M = Q^-1 L Q, then M^n = Q^-1 L^n Q, which can give you an explicit formula in terms of n. Scott -- Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu This isn't flying. This is falling, with style. -- Buzz Lightyear ==== I have some problems with the following Matrix: > - - > | 0 1 -1 | > | -2 3 -1 | > | -1 1 1 | > - - When trying ro calculate the Eigenvectors (EGV-Command) of this Matrix with > my HP49G (V1.19-6) I get the Message: EGV Error - Matrix not diagonizable But the same task is no problem for my HP48 > (Metakernel, Erable and Alg48 installed). Has anyone an idea why this happens to be an error on the HP49G? > Any help wold be appreciated! Your matrix is indeed not diagonalizable. The eigenvalue 1 has multiplicity 2 but eigenspace of dim 1. Try JORDAN to get a characteristic vector corresponding to 1. On the 48, whatever you install, EGV is the numeric EGV instruction which in this case can not return a completely meaningfull answer (you can get the same answer converting your matrix to numeric on the 49, the two first columns are the same up to numeric accuracy). ==== parisse schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I have some problems with the following Matrix: >- - >| 0 1 -1 | >| -2 3 -1 | >| -1 1 1 | >- - > When trying ro calculate the Eigenvectors (EGV-Command) of this Matrix with >my HP49G (V1.19-6) I get the Message: > EGV Error - Matrix not diagonizable > But the same task is no problem for my HP48 >(Metakernel, Erable and Alg48 installed). > Has anyone an idea why this happens to be an error on the HP49G? >Any help wold be appreciated! Your matrix is indeed not diagonalizable. The eigenvalue 1 > has multiplicity 2 but eigenspace of dim 1. Try JORDAN > to get a characteristic vector corresponding to 1. > On the 48, whatever you install, EGV is the numeric EGV instruction > which in this case can not return a completely meaningfull answer > (you can get the same answer converting your matrix to numeric on the > 49, the two first columns are the same up to numeric accuracy). > But I have another question concerning this topic! When I use Maple 6.0 to calculate the eigenvecs and values I get correct ( I mean not approximate) answers, the same that I get when I calculate by hand. Do you know which way the eigenvectors are calculated on the HP49G ? Why is there a difference between the JORDAN Command and the EGV-Command ? Greetings Bernd ==== I just got my hp49G and I'm wondering if there is a quick way to convert the HP49G-to-HP49G cable into a HP49G-to-PC one without cutting the cable (like a simple extenstion)? I've searched the archives (google) but could a methode that involved cutting thanks for any help ==== > I just got my hp49G and I'm wondering if there is a quick way to convert the > HP49G-to-HP49G cable into a HP49G-to-PC one without cutting the cable (like > a simple extenstion)? I've searched the archives (google) but could a > methode that involved cutting thanks for any help Hay shen, I got some telephone wire (4 wires inside, single strand per color) and added a 9 pin serial to one side. Not all of the pins will be while the serial has 9. Then I just stuck the wire into the proper holes in one of the sides of 49G.9a49G cable. Look at hpcalc.org for pin assignments. Then just rap with some electrical tape. It's that easy. Hay, and make sure you double check the pins. It's better to check twice or even three times than burning out your 49. Don't really know if it will burn, but I would hate to find out. ==== >I just got my hp49G and I'm wondering if there is a quick way to convert the >HP49G-to-HP49G cable into a HP49G-to-PC one without cutting the cable (like >a simple extenstion)? I've searched the archives (google) but could a >methode that involved cutting > thanks for any help Hay shen, > I got some telephone wire (4 wires inside, single strand per color) > and added a 9 pin serial to one side. Not all of the pins will be > while the serial has 9. Then I just stuck the wire into the proper > holes in one of the sides of 49G-49G cable. Look at hpcalc.org for > pin assignments. Then just rap with some electrical tape. It's that easy. Hay, and make sure you double check the pins. It's better to check > twice or even three times than burning out your 49. Don't really know > if it will burn, but I would hate to find out. I'm finally going to split my 49g-49g cable into to and plug an db9 connector to each side (male and female). I'm just wondering since the PC port is 12 volts and my 49g is 3 volts (2 AAA 1.5v + 1 AAA bats) isn't this asking for trouble ? I've seen a tutorial on hpcalc concerning this method but I have my doubts hmmm... ==== > the PC port is 12 volts and my 49g is 3 volts [?] > isn't this asking for trouble ? If you mean for standard RS-232 serial port data transfer, the calc has its own internal power supply, rating the voltages it really needs, and the PC's serial data lines (RX,TX), as well as the calc's, are all within standard RS-232 specs, so these calcs have been successfully interfacing with PCs (and Macs) for data transfer for something like 15 years thus far. Except for the first year's production run of HP49s, which got the circuit wrong, and might even short themselves out if anything conductive bumps into the calc's connector pins. -[]- . ==== If you mean for standard RS-232 serial port data transfer, > the calc has its own internal power supply, rating the > voltages it really needs, and the PC's serial data lines (RX,TX), > as well as the calc's, are all within standard RS-232 specs, > so these calcs have been successfully interfacing with PCs > (and Macs) for data transfer for something like 15 years thus far. Except for the first year's production run of HP49s, > which got the circuit wrong, and might even short themselves out > if anything conductive bumps into the calc's connector pins. > those buggy first year releases? ==== just give it a try (I don't know any other way to tell if the calc is buggy)... I have a 49 with a quite low serial no (ID93100023) and I haven't got any problems with transferring programs or updating the ROM. Martin shen schrieb: >If you mean for standard RS-232 serial port data transfer, >>the calc has its own internal power supply, rating the >>voltages it really needs, and the PC's serial data lines (RX,TX), >>as well as the calc's, are all within standard RS-232 specs, >>so these calcs have been successfully interfacing with PCs >>(and Macs) for data transfer for something like 15 years thus far. >>Except for the first year's production run of HP49s, >>which got the circuit wrong, and might even short themselves out >>if anything conductive bumps into the calc's connector pins. those buggy first year releases? ==== On my 48GX's Symbolic key is an item Isolate a variable. Does anyone know where this form went on the 49? I know you can achieve the same thing by using the ISOLV function, but I don't know why the form is Steve ==== Try << 93 MENU >> you can assign this to a USR key. Many of the 48 menus still exist in the 49... you just have a to dig a little bit for them. Greg S. > On my 48GX's Symbolic key is an item Isolate a variable. Does anyone > know where this form went on the 49? I know you can achieve the same > thing by using the ISOLV function, but I don't know why the form is Steve ==== Well, 93 MENU looks like it shows the 48's Symbolic top level menu in soft keys (rather odd since I have flag 117 set to Choose boxes). Then if a soft key is selected (e.g. ISOL) rather than bring up the old form for Isolate a variable, ISOL is executed against the stack. I Steve > Try << 93 MENU you can assign this to a USR key. Many of the 48 menus still exist in the > 49... you just have a to dig a little bit for them. Greg S. ==== > Well, 93 MENU... Not at all the same, as you said; on the *48G*, right-shift SYMBOLIC (or #B4113h LIBEVAL) brought up a choose box: Integrate... #B4114h LIBEVAL Differentiate... #B4122h LIBEVAL Taylor poly... #B412Bh LIBEVAL Isolate var... #B412Dh LIBEVAL Solve quad... #B4130h LIBEVAL Manip expr... #B4131h LIBEVAL Each of the above was also an inform-based application, not merely a command menu. Hence, users of the 49 are not nearly as well informed ((o)) . ==== > Well, 93 MENU... Not at all the same, as you said; on the *48G*, right-shift SYMBOLIC (or #B4113h LIBEVAL) brought up a choose box: Integrate... #B4114h LIBEVAL Differentiate... #B4122h LIBEVAL Taylor poly... #B412Bh LIBEVAL Isolate var... #B412Dh LIBEVAL Solve quad... #B4130h LIBEVAL Manip expr... #B4131h LIBEVAL Each of the above was also an inform-based application, not merely a command menu. Hence, users of the 49 are not nearly as well informed ((o)) . ==== If flag -117 is clear, it comes up as choose box item number 2 when you press LS 7. Is that what you are looking for? Dennis ==== No. What I'm looking for is the form similar to RS 7, Solve equation... on the 49g, only for Isolate a variable. It's basically a form for entering an expression, the variable you want to solve for, the result (symbolic or numeric), and a checkbox to determine if you want to get the principal solution only. A work around is to use the stack and the ISOL function. BTW, in my original post I meant to say the ISOL function. Steve > If flag -117 is clear, it comes up as choose box item number 2 when you press > LS 7. Is that what you are looking for? Dennis ==== Today I am using algebra and pre-calculus on the HP 48 G/G X. by Dan Coffin I noticed it has a niceset of HP programs in the back of book. Are these available in electronic form anywhere so I might download them from my computer into my calculator? I have other similar books. I'm just wondering if there is repository somewhere of this kind of material ?It would be helpful mmstat ==== In conjunction with Handheld and Portable Computer Club's Twentieth Anniversary HP conference held in London on 21-22 September, a CD containing scanned issues of the first twenty years (1982-2001) of their publication, Datafile, were distributed to all attendees. For anyone else interested in obtaining this disk, check out http://www.magpage.com/~jakes/ppccdrom.htm on the web. Jake Schwartz ==== This is a truly great resource. I have already enjoyed going through just some of this material. If you enjoy HP calculators, you should get a copy of this. THank you Jake for taking the time to provide this information. You're a champ. In conjunction with Handheld and Portable Computer Club's Twentieth > Anniversary HP conference held in London on 21-22 September, a CD > containing scanned issues of the first twenty years (1982-2001) of their > publication, Datafile, were distributed to all attendees. For anyone > else interested in obtaining this disk, check out > http://www.magpage.com/~jakes/ppccdrom.htm on the web. Jake Schwartz > ==== I tried to solve the system of equations x+y=1 x/a - y/b = 0 but the matrice editor in the solve lin sys menu does not accept symbols (here: a and b), just values. I want to edit the matrices in *any* such editor (elements symbolic or numeric), put them on the stack or variables, and solve the system with a command. Is there any program which is able to handle such a thing? tia Nikodemus ==== Sorry! I found the command REF. That made the thing! /Nikodemus > I tried to solve the system of equations > x+y=1 > x/a - y/b = 0 > but the matrice editor in the solve lin sys menu does not accept symbols > (here: a and b), just values. I want to edit the matrices in *any* such > editor (elements symbolic or numeric), put them on the stack or variables, > and solve the system with a command. Is there any program which is able to > handle such a thing? tia Nikodemus ==== Unlike many (most?) of the people in this group, first HP calc I've got was HP49G. Yes, I've been impressed by its power and all, but I haven't got enough attitude to use it extensively. Why? Because of it's unclear documentation, and lack of ... like, feeling. Well, you know what I mean :) Yestureday I've got my 48GX. And I truly _loved_ it from the first sight. People were right -- it's keys are smooth and the big ENTER is just in the place where it should be. Documentation is really good, though the print quality is less than that of 49G's :) Another disappointment was that 49G's cable doesn't fit 48 one -- I have to make an international order to get the cable now, along with the RAM card, perhaps. Anyway, I must say that I will use 48GX -- it's a great calc! And if it won't get the needed job done -- I'll take a 49G, but only after 48 :) -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== There should be an adaptor to make the 49 cable fit the 48. (A small black plastic block.) Mine got one. Perhaps they are saving money. ed Unlike many (most?) of the people in this group, first HP calc > I've got was HP49G. Yes, I've been impressed by its power and all, > but I haven't got enough attitude to use it extensively. Why? > Because of it's unclear documentation, and lack of ... like, feeling. > Well, you know what I mean :) > Yestureday I've got my 48GX. And I truly _loved_ it from the first > sight. People were right -- it's keys are smooth and the big ENTER > is just in the place where it should be. > Documentation is really good, though the print quality is less than > that of 49G's :) > Another disappointment was that 49G's cable doesn't fit 48 one -- > I have to make an international order to get the cable now, along with > the RAM card, perhaps. Anyway, I must say that I will use 48GX -- it's a great calc! > And if it won't get the needed job done -- I'll take a 49G, but only > after 48 :) -- > Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== > There should be an adaptor to make the 49 cable fit the 48. (A small black > plastic block.) > Mine got one. Perhaps they are saving money. Hm. No, it wasn't there :( -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== >There should be an adaptor to make the 49 cable fit the 48. (A small black >plastic block.) >Mine got one. Perhaps they are saving money. Hm. No, it wasn't there :( An adapter, 10-pin male to fit the calc-to-calc cable to 4-pin female to fit any 48-series calculator, should've been in the package that your 49G came in. This adapter also fits the 49G 10-pin to DB9 serial cable, and it works fine for any 48-series calculator. -- James ==== >Hm. No, it wasn't there :( An adapter, 10-pin male to fit the calc-to-calc cable to 4-pin female to > fit any 48-series calculator, should've been in the package that your > 49G came in. This adapter also fits the 49G 10-pin to DB9 serial cable, > and it works fine for any 48-series calculator. Ah! Now I've found it. Silly me has been looking for it in 48 package :) for 49G cable should be in 49G box :) -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== Bad luck Wartan. Must cost them about 50c but you will have to pay a few dollars and lot of time to get one. Standards are sliding at HP. >There should be an adaptor to make the 49 cable fit the 48. (A small black >plastic block.) >Mine got one. Perhaps they are saving money. Hm. No, it wasn't there :( -- > Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== Buy the cards and if you install MK and Erable and Alg48 you'll get a very good almost 49 ==== hi, i'm looking for two second hand books by Gilberto Urroz: - ANALYTICAL and NUMERICAL METHODS WITH THE HP 48 G/G+/GX PROGRAMMABLE CALCULATOR; - HP 48 G/G+/GX Applications in HYDRAULICS. Euro area is preferred. TIA Acrux, Italy ==== I'd say that you might have damaged battery contacts inside the calculator. You say that you scrapped the contacts. In my experience that will only aggravate the problem as the contacts are very delicate. If what I suspect is indeed the problem they aren't too hard to repair, but it takes a good temperature-controlled soldering iron and a steady hand (and, in my case, a very good magnifier). I can usually repair them, but the cost to ship to the colonies and back might be prohibitive. Help (please) On Sunday my HP41CX stopped working - the display no longer comes on when I > press the ON key. I have tested the batteries and battery holder from the > non-working calculator in my other, working 41CX, so I know that they are > OK. The things I have tried since Sunday, to no avail, are: 1. Installed new batteries > 2. Checked voltage across batteries when in the battery holder to make > sure > 3. Gently scraped the contacts inside the battery compartment - there was > some oxidisation on a couple of the contacts > 4. Swapped battery holders with the working HP41CX The calculator was fine until I removed the battery pack on Sunday after I > got a low battery level warning BAT on the (now non-working) HP-41CX. > Since then nothing I have done will make the calculator turn on. Is there anything else that should be part of a routine check ? > Mark. -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 ==== > I'd say that you might have damaged battery contacts inside the > calculator. You say that you scrapped the contacts. In my experience > that will only aggravate the problem as the contacts are very delicate. If what I suspect is indeed the problem they aren't too hard to repair, > but it takes a good temperature-controlled soldering iron and a steady > hand (and, in my case, a very good magnifier). You could use conductive silver ink to repair the contacts if they're not too far gone. First make sure the contacts are as clean as possible,but don't use anything abrasive to clean them. Just alcohol, or maybe a chemical contact cleaner but be careful because I don't know if that will react with the plastic film. Once the contacts are clean, mix the silver ink really well, the more you mix it the better, and apply it sparingly on just the parts that really need it. Allow a good long time for it to dry, I would say overnight, then put the batteries in and see what you have. Good luck! Steve > I can usually repair them, but the cost to ship to the colonies and back > might be prohibitive. > Help (please) >On Sunday my HP41CX stopped working - the display no longer comes on when I >press the ON key. I have tested the batteries and battery holder from the >non-working calculator in my other, working 41CX, so I know that they are >OK. The things I have tried since Sunday, to no avail, are: >1. Installed new batteries >2. Checked voltage across batteries when in the battery holder to make >sure >3. Gently scraped the contacts inside the battery compartment - there was >some oxidisation on a couple of the contacts >4. Swapped battery holders with the working HP41CX >The calculator was fine until I removed the battery pack on Sunday after I >got a low battery level warning BAT on the (now non-working) HP-41CX. >Since then nothing I have done will make the calculator turn on. >Is there anything else that should be part of a routine check ? >Mark. ==== This worked for me: take out batteries for atleast 24 hours and short the - + on the calculator to drain any charge. be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== On many HP-41s, a common failure was the pressure contact between the main circuit board and the keyboard (and the batteries and expansion ports). If you squeeze the front and back together just above the batteries and it works, that's the likely source. Be aware that the screws that hold this together (and the two internal nuts) destructively thread the plastic when used. So removing them and just reapplying them can quickly strip *all* the plastic available to hold them. Then your '41 has no way to be held together (!!). HP's service department used to stock longer screws for just that reason - they could reach undamaged plastic and do the job. I sent my batch to the Voyager World Flight team for that reason in '85. Sorry I don't have any more. If you take care to assure that the fasteners are reusing their existing threading, you can reassemble the '41 indefinitely. If not, two times is probably the limit. Best to you and your fine machine!! Jim Horn (still use my HP-41C w/Time, Adv. Funct. & PPC ROMs freqently) ==== To regain the possibility to open the 41 at will I suggest the following procedure: find the smallest (in diameter) possible screw & counterpart - English word unknown - this is a sleeve with internals matching the screws and outside is either slick - then you need superglue - or screw-like, in which case it should directly replace the original 41 screw holding the case together. Check the length before buying and notice that the combination should be as thin or thinner than the original screw alone. Experiment at your own risk, but if you already have a 41 which can't hold together what do you have to loose? I sincerely hope that someone else, more HW oriented comments my advice, before anybody ruins they 41. Veli-Pekka - a HW genius > On many HP-41s, a common failure was the pressure contact between the main > circuit board and the keyboard (and the batteries and expansion ports). > If you squeeze the front and back together just above the batteries and it > works, that's the likely source. Be aware that the screws that hold this together (and the two internal > nuts) destructively thread the plastic when used. So removing them and > just reapplying them can quickly strip *all* the plastic available to hold > them. Then your '41 has no way to be held together (!!). HP's service department used to stock longer screws for just that reason - > they could reach undamaged plastic and do the job. I sent my batch to the > Voyager World Flight team for that reason in '85. Sorry I don't have any > more. If you take care to assure that the fasteners are reusing their existing > threading, you can reassemble the '41 indefinitely. If not, two times is > probably the limit. Best to you and your fine machine!! Jim Horn (still use my HP-41C w/Time, Adv. Funct. & PPC ROMs freqently) ==== > To regain the possibility to open the 41 at will > I suggest the following procedure: > find the smallest (in diameter) possible screw & > counterpart - English word unknown - this is a sleeve > with internals matching the screws and outside is > either slick - then you need superglue - or screw-like, > in which case it should directly replace the original > 41 screw holding the case together. > Check the length before buying and notice that > the combination should be as thin or thinner than the > original screw alone. > Experiment at your own risk, but if you already have > a 41 which can't hold together what do you have to loose? I sincerely hope that someone else, more HW oriented > comments my advice, before anybody ruins they 41. Veli-Pekka - a HW genius That would work but it may be hard to find. How about just 'back-filling' the plastic post with an epoxy glue and either drilling a hole with smaller diameter than the screw or using a self-tapping screw that will make its own hole? It's probably better to pre-drill a little bit so you don't crack the post but I would use a drill press to make sure it was drilled straight. -Steve - haven't done it myself... > On many HP-41s, a common failure was the pressure contact between the main >circuit board and the keyboard (and the batteries and expansion ports). >If you squeeze the front and back together just above the batteries and it >works, that's the likely source. > Be aware that the screws that hold this together (and the two internal >nuts) destructively thread the plastic when used. So removing them and >just reapplying them can quickly strip *all* the plastic available to hold >them. Then your '41 has no way to be held together (!!). > HP's service department used to stock longer screws for just that reason - >they could reach undamaged plastic and do the job. I sent my batch to the >Voyager World Flight team for that reason in '85. Sorry I don't have any >more. > If you take care to assure that the fasteners are reusing their existing >threading, you can reassemble the '41 indefinitely. If not, two times is >probably the limit. > Best to you and your fine machine!! > Jim Horn (still use my HP-41C w/Time, Adv. Funct. & PPC ROMs freqently) > How do I put new Music in to my calculator? ==== My 15C is doing something strange. When I try to store into memory (for example- sto 4), I get an Error 3. I can only store when I use sto 1. Every other memory gives Error 3. Anyone know why. I can't find my manual. Chris ==== > My 15C is doing something strange. When I try to store into memory (for > example- sto 4), I get an Error 3. I can only store when I use sto 1. > Every other memory gives Error 3. Anyone know why. I can't find my manual. > Error 3: Improper Register Number or Matrix element Storage register named is nonexistent or matrix element indicated is nonexistent. -- Mike Ker Wildwood Systems Group Fredericton, New Brunswick CANADA ==== Chris Briskorn escribi.97 en el mensaje > My 15C is doing something strange. When I try to store into memory (for > example- sto 4), I get an Error 3. I can only store when I use sto 1. > Every other memory gives Error 3. It seems you have not the R4 assigned as register for storing but program memory... RI, RO and R1 are ever for storing. How much do you want? I have a total of 9 registers for storing: RI and R0 to R8: this lets me use ststistic (R2-R7 needed) and use R8 for euro converting :-) For this configuration I did 8 DIM (i) If you need, for instance, use for storing till register no. 15, do the next: 15 DIM (i) (For sto/rcl in R12, do STO .2 or RCL .2) ==== Chris Briskorn escribi.97 en el mensaje >My 15C is doing something strange. When I try to store into memory (for >example- sto 4), I get an Error 3. I can only store when I use sto 1. >Every other memory gives Error 3. It seems you have not the R4 assigned as register for storing but program > memory... > RI, RO and R1 are ever for storing. How much do you want? > I have a total of 9 registers for storing: RI and R0 to R8: this lets me use > ststistic (R2-R7 needed) and use R8 for euro converting :-) For this > configuration I did 8 DIM (i) > If you need, for instance, use for storing till register no. 15, do the > next: 15 DIM (i) > (For sto/rcl in R12, do STO .2 or RCL .2) ==== R Lion escribi.97 en el mensaje I have a total of 9 registers for storing: RI and R0 to R8... ... so I have a total of 10 registers for storing. ==== I have an HP 11C and the guidebook says for that error: Named storage register currently converted to program memory, or nonexistent storage register. HTH > My 15C is doing something strange. When I try to store into memory (for > example- sto 4), I get an Error 3. I can only store when I use sto 1. > Every other memory gives Error 3. Anyone know why. I can't find my manual. Chris ==== What is the maximum memory HP 48GX can have? How would one go about 1. obtaining the memory cards/hardware necessary to upgrade? 2. obtaining information about how to upgrade? thanks. louis ==== >What is the maximum memory HP 48GX can have? How would one go about 1. obtaining the memory cards/hardware necessary to upgrade? 2. obtaining information about how to upgrade? thanks. louis of error in the GX addressing the last two banks of a 4 Mb card, the klotz cards permit bank substitution of the last 2 ports. Unfortunately, the extra logic comes at a price since the 4M card is more than twice the cost of a 2M card. I bought the 2M, and it is more than enough. To upgrade, buy one 128k card for port 1, and 1 ?M card for port 2. Plug them into the appropriate ports with the power off. Turn on the calc, and you are all set. PINIT seems not to be necessary as each card has been formatted when tested at the factory. Hope this helps. Bill Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) ==== Am i misreading the price or is it only $70 for a 2 MB card!? -louis ==== > Am i misreading the price or is it only $70 for a 2 MB card!? You're correct. I just ordered a 2 MB card from Klotz a couple of days ago, and the price, including shipping, was about $78. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== HP sells 1MB, max is 4MB, but some last ports have difficulties in access.Anyway 3,5MB is a lot, too. Remember that a port is only 128KB > What is the maximum memory HP 48GX can have? How would one go about 1. obtaining the memory cards/hardware necessary to upgrade? 2. obtaining information about how to upgrade? thanks. louis ==== > What is the maximum memory HP 48GX can have? How would one go about 1. obtaining the memory cards/hardware necessary to upgrade? 2. obtaining information about how to upgrade? > 1) http://uuhome.de/oklotz/index_e.html 2) http://uuhome.de/oklotz/hp2048ae.pdf ==== I want to convert from rectangular to polar on the 49G. I have tried to do this using the vector notation on the calculator, but when I go to convert the vector (polar) back to its components it flips back to rectangular. I want to do this using a program, so there must be a function to do so. MC ==== > I want to convert from rectangular to polar on the 49G. In the days of much older calculators, there were no complex number objects or vector objects; people had to enter two completely separate real numbers onto the stack and mentally imagine that these were related, which is what gave rise to the need to replace one pair of numbers with another pair from time to time, which was called converting R<->P; the calculator, meanwhile, never knew what was going on, so the user had to take all responsibility for invoking R<->P himself whenever required, and then still dealing separately with each component during other subsequent computations. The modern HP48/49 has internal complex number objects and vector objects; these single objects have only one internal form, which is never converted at all; instead, any conversion occurs automatically during input parsing and output displaying, so that the user need never explicitly convert anything himself. On input, the user enters an angle symbol <) just preceding each coordinate which is an angle, and the calculator immediately and automatically converts that input into its internal form, using the syntax to automatically understand the type of coordinates which were entered: [ x y ] or ( x y ) rectangular [ r <)theta ] or ( r <)theta ) polar [ x y z ] rectangular [ r <)theta z ] cylindrical [ r <)theta <)phi ] spherical For output (display), the user can choose RECT, CYLIN or SPHERE display modes, and the calculator then immediately and automatically converts every complex number or vector (2D and 3D) from its internal form back to the coordinates that the user wants to see (above). All angles, of course, are in the current angle display mode (DEG, RAD, or GRAD), which is one more thing to be set before entering input or interpreting output. Whatever we now want to do with this calculator, the above understandings should now make it clear how to do it. If we want to enter some values in rectangular form and see the same complex numbers or vectors displayed in polar form, we just perform CYLIN or SPHERE once to set the output display style, then start entering coordinates without any angle symbols; each time we press ENTER, we instantly see our input converted from rectangular input to polar output on the display, without having to invoke any explicit conversion functions. If we want to enter some values in polar form and see the same objects displayed in rectangular form, we just perform RECT once; as we enter each polar vector with an angle symbol and then press ENTER, we instantly see it re-displayed in rectangular form, again without having to invoke any explicit conversion functions. Summary: o Input: Enter objects with an angle symbol preceding each angle value; all conversion to internal form is automatic. o Output: Perform RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE to re-display output in desired forms; all conversion from internal form to display is automatic. o By entering in one format and displaying in another, all conversion is automatic. o Internal computations with complex numbers and vectors are always automatically correct, because there exists only one universal internal form for each object type; there is no internal conversion between forms. Other commands which operate on complex numbers: o RE gives x, IM gives y, C->R or OBJ-> give both x and y o ABS gives r, ARG gives theta [ABS also works with vectors] > when I go to convert the vector (polar) back to its components > it flips back to rectangular. Nothing flips back; vector objects exist internally only in rectangular component form, so commands such as OBJ-> and ARRY-> (or the Matrix Writer) will discover only rectangular components inside a vector. HOWEVER, there are three special commands (V->, ->V2 and ->V3) which actually convert between internal (rectangular) components and external (display form) coordinates, depending on the current coordinate display mode (RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE): V-> or a 2- or 3-component vector into the separate values that would be *displayed* in the current mode (RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE). By the way, this is why V-> is not a good idea as a shortcut for ARRY-> DROP, because sometimes it may produce converted, angular coordinates, instead of the desired original components. ->V2 and ->V3 These do the inverse of V-> In other words, in CYLIN/SPHERE modes, these assemble polar coordinates into a vector, just as if you had typed angle symbols in front of those components, thus converting external polar coordinates into internal rectangular components. You can have ->V2 produce either a vector or a complex number object, according to whether flag -19 is clear or set. More rantings, old P<->R revived on HP48/49 for diehards, RAD and POLAR toggles revived on HP49 for those who miss them, angle symbol on a more convenient key, etc. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CA74D8B.55348AC5%40miu.edu http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D46423F.6170959A%40miu.edu http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B234542.CB2402A%40miu.edu http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B230DDB.942573D%40miu.edu With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu . ==== the two. The main problem is that when you do a obj-> command on top of a polar vector it will reduce back to the rectangular form. I want to be able to get the primaries in polar form on two levels of the stack. MC > I want to convert from rectangular to polar on the 49G. In the days of much older calculators, there were > no complex number objects or vector objects; people had to > enter two completely separate real numbers onto the stack and > mentally imagine that these were related, which is what gave rise > to the need to replace one pair of numbers with another pair > from time to time, which was called converting R<->P; > the calculator, meanwhile, never knew what was going on, > so the user had to take all responsibility for > invoking R<->P himself whenever required, > and then still dealing separately with each component > during other subsequent computations. The modern HP48/49 has internal complex number objects > and vector objects; these single objects have only one > internal form, which is never converted at all; > instead, any conversion occurs automatically > during input parsing and output displaying, > so that the user need never explicitly convert anything himself. On input, the user enters an angle symbol <) > just preceding each coordinate which is an angle, > and the calculator immediately and automatically > converts that input into its internal form, > using the syntax to automatically understand > the type of coordinates which were entered: [ x y ] or ( x y ) rectangular > [ r <)theta ] or ( r <)theta ) polar > [ x y z ] rectangular > [ r <)theta z ] cylindrical > [ r <)theta <)phi ] spherical For output (display), the user can choose RECT, CYLIN or SPHERE > display modes, and the calculator then immediately and automatically > converts every complex number or vector (2D and 3D) from its internal > form back to the coordinates that the user wants to see (above). All angles, of course, are in the current angle display mode > (DEG, RAD, or GRAD), which is one more thing to be set > before entering input or interpreting output. > Whatever we now want to do with this calculator, > the above understandings should now make it clear how to do it. If we want to enter some values in rectangular form and see > the same complex numbers or vectors displayed in polar form, we > just perform CYLIN or SPHERE once to set the output display style, > then start entering coordinates without any angle symbols; > each time we press ENTER, we instantly see our input converted > from rectangular input to polar output on the display, > without having to invoke any explicit conversion functions. If we want to enter some values in polar form and see the same > objects displayed in rectangular form, we just perform RECT once; > as we enter each polar vector with an angle symbol and then > press ENTER, we instantly see it re-displayed in rectangular form, > again without having to invoke any explicit conversion functions. > Summary: o Input: > Enter objects with an angle symbol preceding each angle value; > all conversion to internal form is automatic. o Output: > Perform RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE to re-display output in desired forms; > all conversion from internal form to display is automatic. o By entering in one format and displaying in another, > all conversion is automatic. o Internal computations with complex numbers and vectors > are always automatically correct, because there exists > only one universal internal form for each object type; > there is no internal conversion between forms. > Other commands which operate on complex numbers: o RE gives x, IM gives y, C->R or OBJ-> give both x and y > o ABS gives r, ARG gives theta [ABS also works with vectors] >when I go to convert the vector (polar) back to its components >it flips back to rectangular. Nothing flips back; vector objects exist internally only in > rectangular component form, so commands such as OBJ-> and ARRY- (or the Matrix Writer) will discover only rectangular components > inside a vector. HOWEVER, there are three special commands (V->, ->V2 and ->V3) > which actually convert between internal (rectangular) components > and external (display form) coordinates, depending on the current > coordinate display mode (RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE): V- > or a 2- or 3-component vector into the separate values > that would be *displayed* in the current mode (RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE). By the way, this is why V-> is not a good idea as a shortcut > for ARRY-> DROP, because sometimes it may produce converted, > angular coordinates, instead of the desired original components. > ->V2 and ->V3 These do the inverse of V- > In other words, in CYLIN/SPHERE modes, these assemble > polar coordinates into a vector, just as if you had > typed angle symbols in front of those components, > thus converting external polar coordinates > into internal rectangular components. You can have ->V2 produce either a vector or a complex number > object, according to whether flag -19 is clear or set. > More rantings, old P<->R revived on HP48/49 for diehards, > RAD and POLAR toggles revived on HP49 for those who miss them, > angle symbol on a more convenient key, etc. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CA74D8B.55348AC5%40miu.edu > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D46423F.6170959A%40miu.edu > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B234542.CB2402A%40miu.edu > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B230DDB.942573D%40miu.edu With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu > . ==== > The main problem is that when you do a obj-> command > to a polar vector it will reduce back to the rectangular form. Do V-> instead of OBJ-> There is no polar vector internally; there are only different ways of entering the data to create the vector, and different ways of displaying the vector on the stack, but the internal components, revealed by OBJ-> are always rectangular. If you are displaying in CYLIN/SPHERE mode, showing angle(s), then V-> will result in the separate *displayable* values, actually converting from the internal rectangular form, which is what you are looking for in this case. Likewise, ->V2 and ->V3 convert displayable separate inputs back to internal rectangular form. -[]- . ==== You probably figured out by now: DUP RE SWAP IM does the trick for you! ==== You know the math, you can program the functions yourself. It is also possible to use SysRPL and dig the old functions from the ROM (The HP 28 had these functions) BUT Currently the POLAR RECT is a display-only automatic conversion. [MODE] Coord will let you choose it or you can use RECT POLAR keywords also you can change the flags directly, if you wish. The internal representation is always rectangular. You can input in either rectangular or polar and the display will show it in your currently selected format. I hope this helped a little. Veli-Pekka > I want to convert from rectangular to polar on the 49G. I have tried to do > this using the vector notation on the calculator, but when I go to convert > the vector (polar) back to its components it flips back to rectangular. I > want to do this using a program, so there must be a function to do so. > MC ==== I've found some situations in integrations when you get the same answer back as the original problem except the HP surrounds it by INT(fx(Xt), Xt, X). Why does the HP do this and what does it mean? I received the info on how to handle this in one specific problem but don't understand what it means or why it does it so I can ralize the information. Carmen ==== > I've found some situations in integrations when you get the same answer back > as the original problem except the HP surrounds it by INT(fx(Xt), Xt, X). > Why does the HP do this and what does it mean? I received the info on how > to handle this in one specific problem but don't understand what it means or > why it does it so I can ralize the information. > Carmen The usual indefinite integral operation is to take a function f(x) and return a function (unique up to additive constant), say g(x), whose derivative is the original function. Thus the result must itself be a function of the original variable. But to specify the function to be integrated in the HP , one must specify a variable and a formula for the result bsed on that variable x -> f(x). The f(Xt) *and* Xt are needed to determine the integrand function, Xt -> f(Xt), and the X is needed as argument of the function resulting from the integration. For a given function f(X), 'INT(f(Xt),Xt,X)' represents a function of X but different from f(X). Note that expressions like 'INT(X^2,X,X)' giving 'X^3/3' and 'INT(X^2,X,2)' giving '8/3' evaluate as expected, but 'INT(X^2,2,2)' gives an error message, since there is no *variable* of integration. Expressions like 'INT(SIN(Xt),Xt,ARCCOS(1/2))' and 'INT(Xt^3,Xt,2)' now have perfectly legitimate meanings. ==== Virgil that's what I don't understand. When I put in a function f of x Why does the 49 return f of Xt? It makes no sense to me. If I try integrating what it returns to me I get f of Xtt? I do know what indefinate integration it but I can't understand what the HP 49 is doing here. It behavior seems arcane in many circumstances. Carmen > I've found some situations in integrations when you get the same answer back >as the original problem except the HP surrounds it by INT(fx(Xt), Xt, X). >Why does the HP do this and what does it mean? I received the info on how >to handle this in one specific problem but don't understand what it means or >why it does it so I can ralize the information. >Carmen > > The usual indefinite integral operation is to take a function f(x) > and return a function (unique up to additive constant), say g(x), > whose derivative is the original function. Thus the result must > itself be a function of the original variable. But to specify the > function to be integrated in the HP , one must specify a variable > and a formula for the result bsed on that variable x -> f(x). The f(Xt) *and* Xt are needed to determine the integrand function, > Xt -> f(Xt), and the X is needed as argument of the function > resulting from the integration. For a given function f(X), 'INT(f(Xt),Xt,X)' represents a function > of X but different from f(X). > Note that expressions like 'INT(X^2,X,X)' giving 'X^3/3' and > 'INT(X^2,X,2)' giving '8/3' evaluate as expected, but > 'INT(X^2,2,2)' gives an error message, since there is no *variable* > of integration. Expressions like 'INT(SIN(Xt),Xt,ARCCOS(1/2))' and 'INT(Xt^3,Xt,2)' > now have perfectly legitimate meanings. ==== > Virgil that's what I don't understand. When I put in a function f of x Why > does the 49 return f of Xt? Because it doesn't know how to intgrate the function you gave it. ==== Bless you steen and virgil! I understand! That is the obvious but I wasn't sure and assuming has caused so many problems in the past I didn't want to. So I have to manipulate the equation in whatever many ways to find an expression it does know how to integrate! Carmen >Virgil that's what I don't understand. When I put in a function f of x > Why >does the 49 return f of Xt? Because it doesn't know how to intgrate the function you gave it. ==== > Virgil that's what I don't understand. When I put in a function f of x Why > does the 49 return f of Xt? If you put 'F(X)' on the stack an use the INTVX command you will get 'INT(F(Xt),Xt,X)'. The 'Xt' is what is called a dummy variable, meaning that replacing it by any other variable not already in the expression does not change the meaning or value of the expression. Thus 'INT(F(Xt),Xt,X)' and 'INT(F(Y),Y,X)' and 'INT(F(q),q,X)' all mean the same thing. Good mathematical practice says that dummy variables should not be the same as actual variables. Since the X in 'INT(F(Xt),Xt,X)' is an actual variable, one should avoid 'INT(F(X),X,X), even though the HP49 can deal with it correctly. 'HP does this by appending a t to whatever actual variable is used when required to invent a dummy variable. ==== I was looking around, checking out what's being sold these days, when I ran across this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383400767 It looks like a regular 11C but the gold key functions are completely different! The FURLONGS, TIME and LENGHTS functions are particularly fascinating. Was this a custom unit with built-in programs for handicapping horse races? (I know nothing about horse racing or betting.) Anyone know anything about this one??? - Michael -- Remove No Spam Please from return address. ==== answered that he didn't know he had a strange 11C, and put it off the site this morning... RC Michael F. Coyle a .8ecrit dans le message > I was looking around, checking out what's being sold these days, when I ran > across this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383400767 It looks like a regular 11C but the gold key functions are completely > different! The FURLONGS, TIME and LENGHTS functions are particularly > fascinating. Was this a custom unit with built-in programs for handicapping > horse races? (I know nothing about horse racing or betting.) Anyone know anything about this one??? - Michael > -- > Remove No Spam Please from return address. ==== Michael F. Coyle escribi.97 en el mensaje http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383400767 Anyone know anything about this one??? > The seller has no idea (and no docs) about this no standard hp 11c... ==== This looks like a bastardized 11C more than anything else. I wonder if the bidders even realize it's not a standard 11C. I certainly would not want it. > I was looking around, checking out what's being sold these days, when I ran > across this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383400767 It looks like a regular 11C but the gold key functions are completely > different! The FURLONGS, TIME and LENGHTS functions are particularly > fascinating. Was this a custom unit with built-in programs for handicapping > horse races? (I know nothing about horse racing or betting.) Anyone know anything about this one??? - Michael > -- > Remove No Spam Please from return address. ==== It looks like a special purpose keyboard overlay glued above the original one. Maybe for a game program for 2 players. Michael F. Coyle schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I was looking around, checking out what's being sold these days, when I ran > across this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383400767 It looks like a regular 11C but the gold key functions are completely > different! The FURLONGS, TIME and LENGHTS functions are particularly > fascinating. Was this a custom unit with built-in programs for handicapping > horse races? (I know nothing about horse racing or betting.) Anyone know anything about this one??? - Michael > -- > Remove No Spam Please from return address. ==== Given a simple equation like NEW=OLD*(1.+CHG/100.)^PD when I use ISOL to solve for CHG I get On the 48gx CHG=((NEW/OLD)^INV(PD)-1)*100 On the 49g CHG=100.*EXP(-Ln(OLD/NEW)/PD)-100. Both of these yield the same result, I'm just wondering why they use different approaches. Also, the 49g gives me the error ISOL Error: Non unary operator if I have Approx checked in the CAS Modes. If I uncheck it (turn approx. mode off) then execute ISOL, the 49g prompts me to turn Approx. mode on. If I choose YES, it works (returns the expression above). If I try it again (without unchecking Approx mode), it fails with the Non unary operator error. To get it to work again I have to turn off Approx mode, and let it prompt me to turn it on again. Very weird, eh? Am I doing something wrong, or is there a problem with ISOL on the 49g? Steve ==== > Given a simple equation like > NEW=OLD*(1.+CHG/100.)^PD > when I use ISOL to solve for CHG ... And the same with SOLVE in place of ISOL, although I failed to find where these converge in ROM. Since SOLVE is a superset (in the CAS) of ISOL, I don't see why the original ISOL needed to be messed with at all. It can be said that the complete CAS adds much more overall capability, and that discarding some original symbolic functions might have been thought desirable to make room for it, but since the replaced functions turned out to be incompatible (sometimes even not working at all), it's too bad that it also trampled over certain nice things that were just fine and more useful as they were. -[]- . ==== > Am I doing something wrong, or is there a problem with ISOL on the > 49g? The HP49G is not backward compatible with the HP48 series. Even though some commands accidently share names on the two calculators, their do not work alike. ==== >Am I doing something wrong, or is there a problem with ISOL on the >49g? > The HP49G is not backward compatible with the HP48 series. Even though some > commands accidently share names on the two calculators, their do not work > alike. This also concerns a lot of SysRPL-commands. For instance, the basic commands XYGROBDISP and INNERCOMP. The latter doesn't crash or error anymore but yields the count ONE for *any* non-composite object (somtimes useful). The former distroys the display in suspended state or if directly executed, provided the inserted grob is too large. In the whole, even experts have problems in porting complex SysRPL-programs from or to a HP48 :-) - Wolfgang ==== Just thought I'd let you know how I 'improved' my Urroz books. After I got them I've been using them a lot with the Calculator. Unfortunately they don't stay open so I had to hold them open with one hand. Working the calc with one hand and holding a book didn't really work so I finally stretched them open and the glue from the spine released and pages started falling out ;/ This wasn't good at all so I took them to Kinko's had the spine cut off and the books coil bound. They now lay perfectly flat without an extra hand and I can even fold them back on themselves perfectly! This was great and cost less than 10 bucks a volume! Really terrific, except for the first volume they cut a little too close, but they will be buying me a new one of those! So if you are having trouble juggling the Urroz books (or any book for that matter), this might work for you! Carmen ==== I'm looking for HP-10C and HP-15C owner's manual (in english or, preferably, RC ==== check on Ebay www.ebay.com ==== LONGFLOAT v. 2.0 beta I've made a multiple precision library for HP49 with + - * / sqrt y^x exp ln sin cos tan asin acos atan sinh cosh tanh and some auxiliary functions for both real and complex input. The precision is set in local/global variable DIGITS. Results should be accurate within +/- 1 in last digit. Integers, longfloats and long complex may rally be mixed. The library is to a great extent based on modified algorithms of ZMLIB ( a fortran package for multiple precision). I have done some testing, but could really need some more beta-testers, since this kind of library should be extensively tested. Those who are interested and have time to help please let me know. Gjermund Skailand Things not working: automatic list processing ( but DOLIST/DOSUBS ok) error messages ok but give e.g. XLIB 688 69 Error: Bad argument type ( I haven't really understood how Werner Huysegoms fixed this in his library ;-( Some timings (depends on actual numbers): DIGITS=100, x=sqrt(pi) sqrt(x) 0.65 sec. ln(x) 12 sec. exp(x) 5.3 sec sin(x) 5 sec ( sin(asin(sqrt(2.)/2))^6- 0.125 = ~2.E-100 15.0sec z = (123456789 , 0.123456789 ) sqrt(z) 2 sec ln(z) 15.8 sec exp (ln(z)) - z = ~ (-3.E-91, 4.E-96) 24.5sec atan(z) 7.0 sec DIGITS = 1000, pi precomputed Sqrt(pi) 28 sec pi - (sqrt(pi)^2) ~ 1E-998 57.7 sec Integers: x = 2^330 y = 2^3330 Zsqrt( x ) -> TRUE .34 sec in exaxt mode Zsqrt( x ) -> FALSE .31 sec in approx mode Zsqrt( y ) -> TRUE 11.4 sec in exaxt mode Zsqrt( y ) -> FALSE 7.5 sec in approx mode Let n = Zsqrt(m) EXACT mode: always returns n such that n^2 <= m< (n+1)^2 . Also flag= 1 if m=n^2t. (In accordance with JMH's specifications Approx mode: returns n such that ABS(m-n^2) is minimum and regardless of result also return flag=0. PS Some constants, ln(2), ln(10) have been hardcoded with 130 digits, if greater precision are required than about 110 digits, these constants will be recalculated and running time will be thus be significantly greater... ==== > LONGFLOAT v. 2.0 beta > <... Some timings (depends on actual numbers): DIGITS=100, > x=sqrt(pi) > sqrt(x) 0.65 sec. > ln(x) 12 sec. > exp(x) 5.3 sec > sin(x) 5 sec > ( sin(asin(sqrt(2.)/2))^6- 0.125 = ~2.E-100 15.0sec Seems rather slow :-( How about multiplication of 100-digit real floats? -- Bhuvanesh ==== <662e00ed.0209300736.607dc17a@posting.google.com>... > LONGFLOAT v. 2.0 beta Seems rather slow :-( How about multiplication of 100-digit real floats? > let x = pi as 100-digit real float with user funtion : x*x 0.257 sec with library internal function : x*x 0.207 sec multiplication of 100 digits integer using internal flashpointer ^QMul 0.189 sec , of course for floating point calculation it is a waste to calculate result to double precision, then throw away half of the digits, but still I don't think there much potensial for improvement :( -Gjermund > -- > Bhuvanesh > ==== > automatic list processing ( but DOLIST/DOSUBS ok) > error messages ok but give e.g. XLIB 688 69 Error: Bad argument type > ( I haven't really understood how Werner Huysegoms fixed this in his > library ;-( If you mean the messages, that's the easy part? Just make sure every command in your lib starts with :: CK0, CK1&Dispatch, CK2&Dispatch .. CK5&Dispatch. Then, when an error occurs and you do eg #68801 ERROROUT, the message will show up with the command name prepended. The Automatic List processing is a bit more difficult, especially since our friends at ACO had changed it, and made a slight error IMHO. (I mean the {1 2 } 3 * -> {3. 6.} part) I have chosen to correct that behaviour in my lib, rather than make the same error. How does it work.. (from memory, so probably not 100% foolproof:-) - in the 48GX, the development team changed the code of the CK&DISPATCH1 routine so that if there was no match, the argument(s) were re-examined to see if either one was a list, and if so, executed the command for every pair of arguments in the list(s). - in the '49, a new object type is introduced: Long Integer. To avoid having to rewrite the dispatching of every command, ACO chose to change the definition of CK&DISPATCH1 again: if no match was found, and the input was a Long Integer, convert the integer to a real and try again. That way, every command that accepted numeric input now accepted the new Long Integers, too (think of IF THEN ELSE END, WHILE REPEAT etc). The trouble is, they put this test *before* the Automatic List Processing Test, instead of after. Automatic List Processing is not recursive, there's a flag controlling whether you're already in ALP mode or not, so they could just as easily have added the Integer-Real conversion test *after* the ALP test, fixing the above problem. It's what I do in my routines. I think some problem remained even with my routines, but I don't remember any more what it was.. You can try it with Mul in my lib: it works as expected { 1 2 } 3 Mul -> { 3 6 } 3 {1 2} Mul -> idem { 2 3 } {3 4} Mul -> {6 12} DIGITS = 1000, pi precomputed > Sqrt(pi) 28 sec > pi - (sqrt(pi)^2) ~ 1E-998 57.7 sec > Gjermund, there seems to be some margin for improvement here. When I calculate Pi to 1000 digits, and then perform << DUP Sqrt DUP Mul Sub >> it takes 28 seconds (<13 for the sqrt), and the result is 0. (the largest error to be expected here is 1.e-999, because both the calculation of Pi, the sqrt, mul and sub guarantee max accuracy.) I always wanted to obtain DIGITS precision. If you specified DIGITS to be 100., then requested VPI, it would return the value of PI rouned to 100. DIGITS. If you set DIGITS to 12., it would return the exact same values as with the built-in reals. That's probably why I never got round to implementing the trig functions ) But Pi calculation (the basis for the trigs) is quite fast. Werner ==== <44ec85ff.0209300653.451a5fbb@posting.google.com>... Gjermund, there seems to be some margin for improvement here. > When I calculate Pi to 1000 digits, and then perform > << DUP Sqrt DUP Mul Sub > it takes 28 seconds (<13 for the sqrt), and the result is 0. > (the largest error to be expected here is 1.e-999, because both the I partly disagree With PI correct rounded to 1000 digits the four last digits are 0199 taking square root with 1000 digits, last 4 digits is: 0669 squaring this number, last 4 digits, correctly rounded, is: 0198 thus error must be 0199-0198 = 1 in last digit = 1 E -999 , which is the number actually calculated (Sorry, I did a mistake when manually converting the above number, which is displayed as 100000....E-1998 ). Gjermund > calculation of Pi, the sqrt, mul and sub guarantee max accuracy.) > I always wanted to obtain DIGITS precision. If you specified DIGITS > to be 100., then requested VPI, it would return the value of PI rouned > to 100. DIGITS. > If you set DIGITS to 12., it would return the exact same values as > with the > built-in reals. That's probably why I never got round to implementing > the > trig functions ) But Pi calculation (the basis for the trigs) is > quite fast. Werner > ==== >Gjermund, there seems to be some margin for improvement here. >When I calculate Pi to 1000 digits, and then perform ><< DUP Sqrt DUP Mul Sub >it takes 28 seconds (<13 for the sqrt), and the result is 0. >(the largest error to be expected here is 1.e-999, because both the I partly disagree > With PI correct rounded to 1000 digits the four last digits are 0199 > taking square root with 1000 digits, last 4 digits is: 0669 > squaring this number, last 4 digits, correctly rounded, is: 0198 > thus error must be 0199-0198 = 1 in last digit = 1 E -999 > , which is the number actually calculated > (Sorry, I did a mistake when manually converting the above number, which is > displayed as 100000....E-1998 ). > I fully agree! Don't know where the 0 came from.. when I do it now, it shows 1.e-999 > 1) if these big numbers really are relevant > 2) modify the basic multiplication routine, perhaps one can use some 500 > digits multiplications instead of one 1000 digits multiplication > 3) perhaps select another algorithm, perhaps calculate the 1/sqrt(x) > instead, since I too know this is sigificantly faster when digits > about > 200 I use simple Newton-Rhapson iteration.. but doubling the DIGITS at each step, so it is the last step (1000. digits accuracy) that takes the longest. Each iteration consists of 4 adds and 1 divide, so the overall time is in the order of .. a single 1000-digit division. (actually, even less.. for a 1000-digit division divides a 2000-digit number by a 1000-digit number to arrive at an accuracy of 1000 digits, where the last step in the NR-iteration divides a 1500-digit number by a 500-digit number) It's a bit strange.. 1000-digit mul and div take about 17_sec, but the sqrt needs only 14_sec. This means the mul and div can be further optimized But your timings on 100-digit numbers are impressive.. 3 times faster than mine? How do you do it? perhaps the end result will be merging with your library I will not even try to compete with your PI calculation, presently Im using > some AGM iteration whenever necessary, but I think the trigs are ok > Feel free to use it. It has taken me quite a while to select the 'best' method, and to implement it in a fast way. Werner ==== <44ec85ff.0210010623.406c572@posting.google.com>... >> Gjermund, there seems to be some margin for improvement here. >> When I calculate Pi to 1000 digits, and then perform >> << DUP Sqrt DUP Mul Sub >> it takes 28 seconds (<13 for the sqrt). I have done some improvement, Pi (1000 digits) << DUP FSQRT DUP FMUL FSUB >> now takes 26.5 seconds, <12 for square root Pi(100 digits) square root now takes 0.46 seconds Gjermund ==== YESHH !! Maybe you will co-operate even more to make the best LongFloat for the 49G: WHIGS-library (I=Integrated :) PS: Do you both support the separation of US from England? > needs only 14_sec. This means the mul and div can be further optimized > But your timings on 100-digit numbers are impressive.. 3 times faster than > mine? How do you do it? > perhaps the end result will be merging with your library > I will not even try to compete with your PI calculation, presently Im using >some AGM iteration whenever necessary, but I think the trigs are ok Feel free to use it. It has taken me quite a while to select the 'best' > method, and to implement it in a fast way. Werner ==== <44ec85ff.0210010623.406c572@posting.google.com>... >> Gjermund, there seems to be some margin for improvement here. > I use simple Newton-Rhapson iteration.. but doubling the DIGITS at each step, > so it is the last step (1000. digits accuracy) that takes the longest. > Each iteration consists of 4 adds and 1 divide, so the overall time is > in the order of .. a single 1000-digit division. > (actually, even less.. for a 1000-digit division divides a 2000-digit number > by a 1000-digit number to arrive at an accuracy of 1000 digits, where the > last step in the NR-iteration divides a 1500-digit number by a 500-digit number) > It's a bit strange.. 1000-digit mul and div take about 17_sec, but the sqrt > needs only 14_sec. This means the mul and div can be further optimized > But your timings on 100-digit numbers are impressive.. 3 times faster than > mine? How do you do it? > In order to get X = sqrt(Y*10^m), X with eg.n=1000 digits let y= digits of Y and add 1000 zeros + 1 if m is odd, thus y is essencially a 2000 digits integer. I also use Newton-Rhapson iteration with doubling of digits, but for some reason (*) I formulated it as x' = x + ( y - x^2) /(2x), thus at final step to get x of 1000 digits I divide a 2000 digit number by a 1000 digit number ;-( However, what may make the difference is: Since the N-R approx. doubles the accuracy of x' for each step, I choose starting digits such that the 2nd last iteration will have much more than half correct digits, then in last iteration, with full precision, I'm guaranteed that I will have the precision required without checking. ( starting digits are either 2*3 or 2*4 ), and except final iteration x is only half of the digits compared to x' x and y I don't need exact result for floating point, but in some cases when I need it for ZSQRT2 there may be an additional iteration. (*) the x' = x + ( y - x^2) /(2x) may in some cases makes it easy to know whether you should add or subtract 1 in last digit in order to get z*2 <= y < (z+1)^2 After your comments I will need to reconsider change to either x' = x+(y/x-x)/2 or x'= (x+y/x)/2 which should be faster for approx. results. Especially since ln and all complex trig functions use AGM iteration with square roots With large numbers, somewhere between 1000-2000 digits, I suspect that the ^QMul, ^QDiv might changes algorithms, since the running time then increases rapidly. -Gjermund PS sqrt(pi) with 200 digits 1.5 sec, 400 digits 4.5 sec ==== Hey! You could work together and exchange ideas. Veli-Pekka > <44ec85ff.0209300653.451a5fbb@posting.google.com>... X > perhaps the end result will be merging with your library I will not even try to compete with your PI calculation, presently Im using > some AGM iteration whenever necessary, but I think the trigs are ok X ==== I've some experience in softkeys menus in RPL What I want now is get from the ROM of my 48GX the program that creates the stat menu 96, for modifying it, and assign the new menu to the key LS 5. The standard assignament of this key is: :: MenuMaker ROMPTR A9 60 DoMenuKey ; What must I do for recovering the original program menu from the ROM? ==== > I've some experience in softkeys menus in RPL > What I want now is get from the ROM of my 48GX the program that creates the > stat menu 96, for modifying it, and assign the new menu to the key LS 5. > The standard assignament of this key is: > :: MenuMaker ROMPTR A9 60 DoMenuKey > What must I do for recovering the original program menu from the ROM? this is just the question I discussed some days ago in my post The Menu System. Obviously, one has to get the menu to the stack for manipulatiing it. This just does the command LMN (List Menu Names) from OT48. I put this library on my site below for you, but without any documentation (not yet ready :-). Perhaps you should read in OT49.txt what this powerful command does. The 48-LMN command was programmed completely different from its 49-LMN version because the menu system of these two calculators differ considerably. Menu 96 is a 1-page menu of statistical directory names. These names itself aren't rompointers since dir-names are neither in HARDROM nor in libraries. If you run 96 LMN, you get the list of rompointers { XLIB 168 101 ... XLIB 168 106 }. This is just the result of splitting rompointer XLIB 169 96 which is what is commonly called an array of XLIB-names. Unfortunately, even JAZZ would not help here because JAZZ does not treat arrays of XLIB-names :-) But with LMN you get this list of XLIB names which isn't a correct name here - it's a list of rompointers each of which is itself a lists of 2 items: the head is the menu-key builder and the second item is the program executed if the menu key is pressed. Anyway, if you've got JAZZ, you can read and modify the rompointers in the above list ad libitum. If not, one can still use the above list to append or to omit some items. For modification one may use the command 3tog from Ot48. It allows to decompose and to rebuilt arbitrary lists and programs composed from SysRPL objects, even if these are unreadable without tools like ED from JAZZ. You can also extract rompointers with the command DTYPE from OT49, but clearly, for reading them in detail one needs very strong decompilation tools like JAZZ. Note that the result of any manipulation *must* be a proper argument for TMENU or maybe CST. Study, for instance, the examples under LMN from OT49.txt. Hope this helps - Wolfgang ==== Wolfgang Rautenberg escribi.97 en el mensaje this is just the question I discussed some days ago > in my post The Menu System. > Menu 96 is a... > ..... > Hope this helps - Wolfgang Well. I think my aim is very difficult with my knowledge of SysRPL and my no-knowledge of OT48... After all, I must teach maths (and live!) ==== R Lion escribi.97 en el mensaje Well. I think my aim is very difficult with my knowledge of SysRPL and my > no-knowledge of OT48... Spying the Spectrum's ROM was easier... ==== Beta in my GX, and I have a couple of questions. First, the Erable documentation refers several times to a Beginners' Menu that should appear when the PRG key is pressed. I always get the standard 48 PRG menu from that key, regardless of whether it's in USER mode or not. However, the Erable main menu *does* come up when I press MTH. Second, without Erable installed, pressing Right-Shift MEMORY brings up the MK Filer, but after installing Erable, this key sequence reverts to the regular 48 Memory display. Can anyone tell me why either (or both) of these things are happening, and if there's a way to fix them? -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== >Beta in my GX, and I have a couple of questions. First, the Erable >documentation refers several times to a Beginners' Menu that should >appear when the PRG key is pressed. I always get the standard 48 PRG >menu from that key, regardless of whether it's in USER mode or not. >However, the Erable main menu *does* come up when I press MTH. Second, >without Erable installed, pressing Right-Shift MEMORY brings up the MK >Filer, but after installing Erable, this key sequence reverts to the >regular 48 Memory display. Wayne, My Erable 3.119 works as described. I had to use the beginners menu today to get the original math menu because I did not remember the new short cut for that. My flags are RCLF #8000010045014FF1h #10EC01h. Perhaps it was removed from the absolute version. I am pretty new at this system also. Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) ==== > Wayne, > My Erable 3.119 works as described. I had to use the beginners menu today to > get the original math menu because I did not remember the new short cut for > that. My flags are RCLF #8000010045014FF1h #10EC01h. > Perhaps it was removed from the absolute version. I am pretty new at this > system also. In 3.201 you can get to the original math menu with alpha-rightshift-MTH. I assume it works the same way in 3.119, but I haven't tried it. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== >In 3.201 you can get to the original math menu with alpha-rightshift-MTH. >I assume it works the same way in 3.119, but I haven't tried it. > I knew it was a simple key combination. I just forgot what and didn't have time to look. Using the other menu gets me there in a few keystrokes. version from a covered port? Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) ==== Bill Storey escribi.97 en el mensaje > My Erable 3.119 works... I had problems with this version (I remember several TTRM's in class using REF with some matrices) so I'm using the 3.2 for years... ==== Wayne Brown escribi.97 en el mensaje > Beta in my GX, and I have a couple of questions. First, the Erable > documentation refers several times to a Beginners' Menu that should > appear when the PRG key is pressed. I always get the standard 48 PRG > menu from that key, regardless of whether it's in USER mode or not. > However, the Erable main menu *does* come up when I press MTH. Second, > without Erable installed, pressing Right-Shift MEMORY brings up the MK > Filer, but after installing Erable, this key sequence reverts to the > regular 48 Memory display. > I never used the Erable assignments, so can't help you with the begginers' menu, and I never had the Filer problem... If this occurs in USR mode, clear this assignment. I think it's MUCH better you work with the new commands looking for them in the main Erable menu and with time, you will see which of them you frequently use and then you will be able of make your own assignments and menus... ==== > I never used the Erable assignments, so can't help you with the begginers' > menu, and I never had the Filer problem... If this occurs in USR mode, clear > this assignment. > I think it's MUCH better you work with the new commands looking for them in > the main Erable menu and with time, you will see which of them you > frequently use and then you will be able of make your own assignments and > menus... how to do the things the documentation says are on it. It's just that I'm one of those people who always want to make things work the way they're documented, whether I need them or not... As for the Filer issue, it turns out that it's not caused by Erable at all, but by the modified eqstk that's installed by the simplified installation procedure after it installs Erable. If I disable the modified eqstk, then RIGHT-SHIFT MEMORY brings up the Filer both in and out of USER mode; but with eqstk enabled it brings up the normal 48 OBJECTS IN { HOME } display. So I've just made a key assignment for Filer on [RS] MEMORY which works in USER mode even with eqstk enabled. RAM cards from Klotz. I've just ordered a 2 MB card from them. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== Wayne Brown escribi.97 en el mensaje > ...So I've just made a key assignment for > Filer on [RS] MEMORY which works in USER mode even with eqstk > enabled. Ok... but I think that eqstk is for showing equations in pretty print, isn't as I never used it, I can not be sure). About the RAM card you ordered, I hope it works as well as the mine (1MB) ==== > Wayne Brown escribi.97 en el mensaje >> ...So I've just made a key assignment for >> Filer on [RS] MEMORY which works in USER mode even with eqstk >> enabled. > Ok... but I think that eqstk is for showing equations in pretty print, isn't > as I never used it, I can not be sure). I think you're right. It was installed automatically when I installed Erable, but doesn't seem to be required. I think I'll reinstall with the Personalized instead of the Simplified install so I can choose exactly which components to install. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== while version 12.2002 of Filer1/2 for the 49 was What is new? Now one can easily do ARCHIVE or RESTORE to or from an arbitrary port with a choose box for these commands on a key which is active only if the filer scans a port. Hence, one may keep 3 different backups of the HOME dir (which includes key assignments, alarms etc) in the 3 ports, all under the same port-name HDir. Equal names do not matter since one can RESTORE only from a definite port. This command errors if there is no HDir in the scanned port. Clearly, somebody who often risks a crash can use his favourite expanded filer after a crash only if it is stored in port 2, say, not only key-assigned. The Ar/Rs choose box was checked thoroughly, it is 99% error-proof. I would like to know how 49-users are pleased with the new filer. And I would also appreciate if people working simultaneously with the 48 and 49 would compare the best 48-filer with Filer1 or Filer2. The size-aspect should also count, I need 1.5 KB only :-) Have fun - Wolfgang ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools ==== I've replaced the standard filer with a key assignment to Filer2 and a command for the port2 Ar$Rs in my custom menu. My only suggestion would be to create a little program to automate the keyassignment and perhaps getting the very usefull Ar$Rs into the APPS menu. I'd really like to make use of the Application menu extention but haven't been able or had time to get my head around how it works. I'd like create something that will do something with the variable selected depending on it's type eg program-run it, Equation-start solver routine otherwise leave on stack etc. As for how good it is? I have a directory on my PC for usefull 49 downloads, it has a special subdirectory dedicated to Wolfgang Utilities. All of them are small, quick and rally usefull. Stephen.N while version 12.2002 of Filer1/2 for the 49 was What is new? Now one can easily do ARCHIVE or > RESTORE to or from an arbitrary port with a > choose box for these commands on a key which is > active only if the filer scans a port. Hence, one > may keep 3 different backups of the HOME dir > (which includes key assignments, alarms etc) in > the 3 ports, all under the same port-name HDir. > Equal names do not matter since one can RESTORE > only from a definite port. This command errors if > there is no HDir in the scanned port. Clearly, somebody who often risks a crash can use > his favourite expanded filer after a crash only if > it is stored in port 2, say, not only key-assigned. The Ar/Rs choose box was checked thoroughly, it is > 99% error-proof. I would like to know how 49-users > are pleased with the new filer. And I would also > appreciate if people working simultaneously with > the 48 and 49 would compare the best 48-filer with > Filer1 or Filer2. The size-aspect should also count, > I need 1.5 KB only :-) Have fun - Wolfgang > ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools ==== Anyone got them? I'm too lazy to write one from scratch :( -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== Here is the information I got from the HPCC group about their conference and the HP Reps. Oops, maybe you should have been included on the try to get onto it (eric@brouhaha.com). HP intend to continue in the calculator business! But the new people plan to create _only_ designs. The actual implementation and manufacture will _all_ be subcontracted to large Chinese calculator makers. This seems to be a compromise between those senior HP managers who think that still being in the calculator business is an anachronism for HP, and those who think it is a traditional HP product line and should not be abandoned. Two new business models made this way are in the works and should be released about Christmas or New Year. HP told us the model numbers, but asked us to keep this stuff confidential for now. They also said they would continue with RPN - part of the discussion concerned the suggestion that a new name should be used for RPN - HP Logic System or something like that, since the name RPN is used by the other makers as a way to frighten potential customers. Many of us at the conference felt that this is a bit better than nothing, but that the traditional users who depend on HP quality are likely being abandoned :-( Hope this helps! :-) Wlodek -- ==== Business models? At last? Can you at least tell us if they will be serious, professional machines, real RPN replacements for the 19BII or ugly ducklings .88 la 39/40? Please? I'm asking because I'm learning accounting and would like a professional machine. Should I get the 17/19BII or wait? -- Thierry Morissette thm47@msn.com > Here is the information I got from the HPCC group about their conference and > the HP Reps. > Oops, maybe you should have been included on the > try to get onto it (eric@brouhaha.com). HP intend to continue in the calculator business! > But the new people plan to create _only_ designs. > The actual implementation and manufacture will > _all_ be subcontracted to large Chinese calculator > makers. This seems to be a compromise between those > senior HP managers who think that still being in the > calculator business is an anachronism for HP, and > those who think it is a traditional HP product line > and should not be abandoned. Two new business models made this way are in the works > and should be released about Christmas or New Year. HP > told us the model numbers, but asked us to keep this > stuff confidential for now. They also said they would continue with RPN - part of > the discussion concerned the suggestion that a new name > should be used for RPN - HP Logic System or something > like that, since the name RPN is used by the other > makers as a way to frighten potential customers. Many of us at the conference felt that this is a bit > better than nothing, but that the traditional users who > depend on HP quality are likely being abandoned :-( Hope this helps! :-) > Wlodek > -- Richard Garner > rgarner@vidnet.net ==== > Business models? At last? Can you at least tell us if they will be serious, professional machines, > real RPN replacements for the 19BII or ugly ducklings .88 la 39/40? Please? I'm asking because I'm learning accounting and would like a professional > machine. Should I get the 17/19BII or wait? You did not ask from me, but personally I would buy the 19BII It's both AOL and RPN and the solver is fun to use plus there is relatively lot of room for many formulas. Also it's packed with reprogrammed functions. I wonder if HP could do a more feature-rich calculator... Veli-Pekka ==== This might be a newbie question, but what the heck. I used to do a lot of SysRPL development on the 48GX and most of the development I did was done on the PC with IDE programs like HP-IDE. I recently got a 49G and wanted to start doing SysRPL on it, but can't find any IDE's for the PC to do my development on. I have read that the 49G comes with an editor on the calc itself, which is great, but wanted to do my development on the PC. Can you all give me some suggestions to what I should use to do HP49G SysRPL development on the PC? Links to the programs you suggest would be great also. Again, sorry if the question is completely off-base. Doug ==== > This might be a newbie question, but what the heck. I used to do a lot of > SysRPL development on the 48GX and most of the development I did was done on > the PC with IDE programs like HP-IDE. I recently got a 49G and wanted to > start doing SysRPL on it, but can't find any IDE's for the PC to do my HP had a development system called the SDK or Debug2. For some months now, I have been developing version 2 of that system called Debug4x. Debug4x fixes a ton of bugs and adds a lot of usability features to the old debug2. Debug4x, for example, supports both the 48 and 49. It can pop-up a list of RPL verbs if you type the first few characters; it can show stack diagrams for the RPL under the cursor; it can develop input forms using a GUI interface. I used HP-IDE for a long time. Believe me, you would never want to go back! download the program and add you to the beta test list. The download is about 5 MB and comes with a partially completed help system and demos for libraries, directories and simple verbs. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Graves RKBA! bgraves@ix.netcom.com ==== the development tools for the 49G named 'Debug2' can be found on www.hpcalc.org There may also another, improved & debugged version named 'Debug4x' be coming soon. However, a progrmmable editor like UltraEdit or (preferred) TSE, along with the 32bit HP tools and Emu48 will do the job as good as some IDE. Douglas Rohm schrieb im Newsbeitrag > This might be a newbie question, but what the heck. I used to do a lot of > SysRPL development on the 48GX and most of the development I did was done on > the PC with IDE programs like HP-IDE. I recently got a 49G and wanted to > start doing SysRPL on it, but can't find any IDE's for the PC to do my > development on. I have read that the 49G comes with an editor on the calc > itself, which is great, but wanted to do my development on the PC. Can you > all give me some suggestions to what I should use to do HP49G SysRPL > development on the PC? Links to the programs you suggest would be great > also. Again, sorry if the question is completely off-base. Doug ==== I have two unused copies of the HP48G Owners Manual. One is still shrinkwrapped. They are $25 or best offer. ==== Can anyone tell me if there is any difference between the HP49 commercialized in France and that in English speaking countries? Clearly the packaging and booklet are in French, but is there any difference in the calculator itself (as there was for the HP48 versions)? Hwyl Paul ==== Can anyone tell me if there is any difference between the HP49 > commercialized in France and that in English speaking countries? > Clearly the packaging and booklet are in French, but is there any > difference in the calculator itself (as there was for the HP48 > versions)? I checked the FAQ, which made it fairly clear. Today I took the plunge, and bought what was probably the last 49G in a shop in Grenoble. Sadly, the 48<->49 cable is missing so I might have to take it back :-( (it wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have a 48GX). Which leads me to... does anyone know where I can get my hands on a PC cable (since of course the 48 serial cable won't work). A bientot Paul ==== Which leads me to... does anyone know where I can get my hands on a PC > cable (since of course the 48 serial cable won't work). A bientot > Paul I made my own HP48 cable using a tiny 4-pin connector that's sold in electronics stores as a CD-ROM Audio Cable. When I got my HP49, I noticed that the four pins at the lower left are in the same order as the 48, and the little connector fits over them without touching any of the others. The rest of the cable, the PC end, came from a mouse. That means that it's nice and flexible. Since you can buy surplus mice for the equivalent of $5, and the CD-ROM cable for about $1, you get a PC cable for either the 48 or the 49 for about $6. Bill ==== Please can others try the following boolean expression with Bool49, Truth Table and OneTerm (A AND C) OR (A AND D) OR (B AND C) OR (B AND D) Truth table gives me a table of all zeros, and OneTerm returns [A B C D] correct list of variable and an empty list {} incorrect. I expect it to return {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. Do others see the same behaviour or is it something specific to me? ==== > Truth table gives me a table of all zeros, I get the correct truth table. > and OneTerm returns [A B C > D] correct list of variable and an empty list {} incorrect. I expect > it to return {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. I get {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. Do you have anything stored in the variables A, B, C or D? If not, provide your flag list, and I'll see what I can find. ==== >Truth table gives me a table of all zeros, I get the correct truth table. > and OneTerm returns [A B C >D] correct list of variable and an empty list {} incorrect. I expect >it to return {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. I get {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. Do you have anything stored in the variables > A, B, C or D? I don't think I have A,B,C or D defined. I have tried typing A [ENTER] in the HOME directory and the directory where I was orgininally using Bool49v2.0, this I'll call my Working Directory. In both cases I end up with 'A' on the stack. Similaryl with B,C & D. Typing VARS to give a list of varriables in the working directory, and intermediate directory between Working and HOME and the HOME directory gives me a list of variables, A,B, C or D are not present in any of these lists. Conclusion I don't think I have any variables called A,B, C or D. Have I missed any possibilities here? Just for completeness I tried (DOG AND HORSE) OR (DOG AND ZEBRA) OR (FISH AND HORSE) OR (FISH AND ZEBRA) and again got the all zeros truth table and null result from one term. If not, provide your flag list, and I'll see what I can find. I presume by the flag list you mean the system flags accessed via [MODE][FLAGS] The following have a check mark 19,31,36,40,41,42,44,57,68,72,73,82,90,114,117,119,128 Just in case it is of significance ROM version 1.19-6 MArk ==== > Have I missed any possibilities here? No, you were very thorough - I would only have checked with 'A' ENTER etc. > I presume by the flag list you mean the system flags accessed via > [MODE][FLAGS] Yes, you can recall your flags with the command RCLF. Such a recalled list can then be stored again with STOF - that's a fast way to change back to a previous set of settings. > The following have a check mark 19,31,36,40,41,42,44,57,68,72,73,82,90,114,117,119,128 You like the small font, eh? > Just in case it is of significance ROM version 1.19-6 I bet you have the internal word size set to 3 or less - run the command RCWS and see if it returns 3 or less? Now do 64 STWS, and use Bool49 again :-) ==== >Have I missed any possibilities here? No, you were very thorough - I would only have checked with 'A' ENTER etc. > I presume by the flag list you mean the system flags accessed via >[MODE][FLAGS] Yes, you can recall your flags with the command RCLF. Such a recalled list > can then be stored again with STOF - that's a fast way to change back to a > previous set of settings. > The following have a check mark > 19,31,36,40,41,42,44,57,68,72,73,82,90,114,117,119,128 You like the small font, eh? > { # 12B8A41050FF0h #180000000000000h #8052000002020188H #400h} >Just in case it is of significance ROM version 1.19-6 I bet you have the internal word size set to 3 or less - run the command > RCWS and see if it returns 3 or less? Now do 64 STWS, and use Bool49 again > :-) OK you hit the jackpot. I have a program that executed 3 STWS. The program takes the output of OneTerm and converts the result back to a boolean expression just to make reading easier. I am trying to work out if a boolean expression or list is the best presentation format. The boolean expression has the advatage of being able to use BView. Need to work on the program a more following this discussion. ==== Do RCLF VP X > I presume by the flag list you mean the system flags accessed via > [MODE][FLAGS] The following have a check mark 19,31,36,40,41,42,44,57,68,72,73,82,90,114,117,119,128 ==== I just uploaded the second part of the update to the sequences, series and limits marathon to hpcalc. The marathon contains now in addition to the already existing contents, how recurrence sequences can be handled with the HP49G and programs for finding rating functions and converting (some kinds of) recurrences to their analytic closed forms, so that the programs then can find bounds condensation points etc. If someone can't wait until the next update of hpcalc, don't hesitate ==== I've used my hp49g for a couple of years now and I'm completly saticfied. But today it started doing a thing that it never done before, it asked me Change to approx mod? or something like that, and if I didn't do it, the result couldn't be calculated! I've never tried that before. I always just keep it in exact mode. What flags is missing now? Another thing that started today, I can't write 85^4 (or similar expression) without my calculator calculates the value right away! And it doesn't write it nicely! It simply puts out the value without the EE. What's wrong here? Last thing, is just a questions about the hp49g in ral. How come the Ti89 is faster at calculating integrals? Eg. x*exp(-x^2) integrated from 0 to infinite. The Ti89 gives the answer right away but the hp49g needs a lot of time to think about it, before it gives the answer 1/2. And the integral x^2*exp(-x^2) integrated from 0 to infinite can't even be calculated on my hp49g, but it can be done on the Ti89. Anyone with a reason for this? Anders Misfeldt ==== > But today it started doing a thing that it never done before, > it asked me Change to approx mod? or something like that, That is because you provide numeric input - any number with a decimal point is considered numeric input. If you have used numeric input before without the calc asking you permission to change mode, it's because you have had silent mode ON earlier (set flag -120). > Another thing that started today, I can't write 85^4 (or similar > expression) without my calculator calculates the value right away! And > it doesn't write it nicely! It simply puts out the value without the EE. Huh? Example, please. > Last thing, is just a questions about the hp49g in ral. How come the > Ti89 is faster at calculating integrals? Eg. x*exp(-x^2) integrated > from 0 to infinite. The Ti89 gives the answer right away but the hp49g > needs a lot of time to think about it, before it gives the answer 1/2. The TI89 spends 0.16 seconds on this, while the HP49G spends 4.36 seconds. The reason is simple: The TI89 uses heuristics widely, which is a huge advantage when dealing with integrals like yours. Specifically, the TI89 looks in a table if it knows the integral, and plugs in the limits - the HP49G *calculates* each integral, hence it'll always spend an amount of time applying calculus rules. The HP49G could also have used heuristics, had it been implemented that way, but Bernard Parisse chose not to. I guess because of development time and lack of space - the latter is most likely. When the integrals get tougher, the HP49G will sometimes beat the TI89 with a large margin, but whenever you calculate school book examples (a very wide group of problems), the TI89 knows the answers pretty much right away. Some examples, where the TI89 is alot slower than the HP49G: '1/(X^4+1)^4' 'X' RISCH, TI89: 113.27 seconds, HP49G: 9.80 seconds '1/(SIN(X)-2)^3' 'X' RISCH, TI89: 36.74 seconds, HP49G: 12.57 seconds 'EXP(X)*COS(X)^4*X^3' 'X' RISCH, TI89: 42.51 seconds, HP49G: 15.58 seconds > And the integral x^2*exp(-x^2) integrated from 0 to infinite can't even > be calculated on my hp49g, but it can be done on the Ti89. There does not exist a closed form solution to the integral of 'X^2*EXP(-(X^2))' - that is, not without utilizing special functions like ERF(X). Such special functions aren't supported by either of the two calcs, and even the TI89 calculates this integral numerically. So can the HP49G, but it won't do that automatically, like the TI89 - you have to use ->NUM or be in numeric mode. With 5 decimals accuracy, the TI89 spends 10.50 seconds on the above, while the HP49G spends 17.08 seconds when ->NUM is used - they agree on the result There exist a number of expressions the TI89 can't integrate, where the HP49G can (as well as the other way around, of course). For example: '(a*LN(a)-2*X^2)/(a*LN(a)^2)'|a=X^2-1 -> 'X/LN(X^2-1)' '(2*X^2+1)*EXP(X^2)' -> 'X*EXP(X^2)' '1/(1+SQRT(X^2-1))' -> ...alot... ...alot... -> 'LN(X)^2/(EXP(X)+1)+LN(EXP(X)+1)' There exist also factorizations that the TI89 can't do, while the HP49G can. There are even a larger number of limits the TI fails at, while its solver is very good. The two machines have very different powers.