B138 It is quit a good example for ML, I think. I reverses the stack order of any number of stack elements ( -> ) ( ob1 ob2 ... obn -> obn ... ob2 ob1) CODE SAVE CD1EX D1=C % point D1 and D0 to the first stack level D0=C A=DAT0 A ?A=0 A -> EXIT % if 0 then no objects on stack *TOP D1+5 % point to next stack level A=DAT1 A ?A#0 A -> TOP % do until top of stack D1-5 % point to top stack level *MAIN A=DAT1 A % read highest object (level n) C=DAT0 A % read lowest object (level 1) DAT1=C A % swich them DAT0=A A D1-5 % point to level (n-1) D0+5 % point to level 2 AD0EX D0=A CD1EX D1=C ?A MAIN % check if middle of stack is reached *EXIT LOADRPL % return to rpl ENDCODE @ -- ==== > I reverses the stack order of any number of stack elements Wouldn't it be simpler to do: << ->LIST REVLIST OBJ-> DROP >> ==== > Wouldn't it be simpler to do: > << ->LIST REVLIST OBJ-> DROP >> This is very slow because all three involved UsrRPL commands are particularly slow if the size of stack reversion is high. It nearly never pays to program this in ML since the following SysRPL program with 3 commands is much shorter, really fast and error protected, in addition. :: CKN (check for sufficiently many stack objects) reversym (reverse stack order of meta-object) UNCOERCE (regain the real or zint in Level 1) ; The stack diagram of this program is ob1 ... obn %n -> obn ... ob1 %n Briefly speaking, it reverses a user-meta-object. - Wolfgang PS. reversym is itself a SysRPL-program and uses the meta-object commands pshzer and psh1&rev. ==== I reverses the stack order of any number of stack elements Wouldn't it be simpler to do: << ->LIST REVLIST OBJ-> DROP >> Yep but that wouldn't be in ASM now, would it? -- ==== Peter Geelhoed schrieb: >>Unfortunately I need the cumulative subtotals of the list, not only the >>total. >>But thanks anyway. > Wou won't get rid of me that easily << DUP SIZE { } SWAP > 1 SWAP > FOR I > OVER 1 > I SUB > 0 + > GSLIST + > NEXT > SWAP GSLIST > / > {1 2 3 4} -> {.1 .3 .6 1.} is that more like it? -- it's me again. It works great. Any idea how to output the subtotals ({1 2 3 4} -> {1 3 6 10} -> {.1 .3 .6 1.}) at the same time? I tried several things but didn't find a good solution. Georg. ==== > it's me again. It works great. Any idea how to output the subtotals ({1 > 2 3 4} -> {1 3 6 10} -> {.1 .3 .6 1.}) at the same time? I tried several things but didn't find a good solution. > of course: change the last SWAP to DUP ROT << DUP SIZE { } SWAP 1 SWAP FOR I OVER 1 I SUB 0 + GSLIST + NEXT DUP ROT GSLIST / >> -- ==== That's what I've been looking for. Georg. Peter Geelhoed schrieb: >>Unfortunately I need the cumulative subtotals of the list, not only the >>total. >>But thanks anyway. > Wou won't get rid of me that easily << DUP SIZE { } SWAP > 1 SWAP > FOR I > OVER 1 > I SUB > 0 + > GSLIST + > NEXT > SWAP GSLIST > / > {1 2 3 4} -> {.1 .3 .6 1.} is that more like it? -- > ==== > Unfortunately I need the cumulative subtotals of the list, not only the > total. Cumulative subtotals? Example please? ==== Can someone tell me if: 1. There was ever a rechargeable battery pack for the HP41 series ? 2. If, so, where can I get one? ==== There is even a small detachable recharger plug cover on the side of the HP 41-series calculator. If you take out the batteries you push it out to the left. > Can someone tell me if: 1. There was ever a rechargeable battery pack for the HP41 series ? 2. If, so, where can I get one? > ==== please look there: http://www.internationalcalculator.com/ they have all you need for your HP 41 CX. Please excuse me for my bad english. Wolfgang Arhelger MR schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Can someone tell me if: 1. There was ever a rechargeable battery pack for the HP41 series ? 2. If, so, where can I get one? > ==== > Can someone tell me if: 1. There was ever a rechargeable battery pack for the HP41 series ? 2. If, so, where can I get one? You might want to check at www.hpmuseum.org. Note that it has classified ads, sections on Battery Packs & Chargers and Repairs & Batteries, and a searchable Forum with archive. -- James ==== I'm not a 41 user, so I don't know if you could use AA rechargable batteries with an external charger... ==== R Lion schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I'm not a 41 user, so I don't know if you could use AA rechargable batteries > with an external charger... > Yes, this works. Back in 1981, I made my own recharger for this. Raymond ==== >Can someone tell me if: 1. There was ever a rechargeable battery pack for the HP41 series ? 2. If, so, where can I get one? > > 1. Yes 2. I bought mine at the Penn State Book Store on Campus. (20 years ago) Bill s) ==== be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== Baboo schrieb im Newsbeitrag > 1. yes 2. good luck > Nowadays the're often offered on eBay;-) Raymond ==== Help (please) On Sunday my HP41CX stopped working - the display no longer comes on when I press the ON key. I have tested the batteries and battery holder from the non-working calculator in my other, working 41CX, so I know that they are OK. The things I have tried since Sunday, to no avail, are: 1. Installed new batteries 2. Checked voltage across batteries when in the battery holder to make sure 3. Gently scraped the contacts inside the battery compartment - there was some oxidisation on a couple of the contacts 4. Swapped battery holders with the working HP41CX The calculator was fine until I removed the battery pack on Sunday after I got a low battery level warning BAT on the (now non-working) HP-41CX. Since then nothing I have done will make the calculator turn on. Is there anything else that should be part of a routine check ? ==== MR meinte >On Sunday my HP41CX stopped working - the display no longer comes on when I >press the ON key. I have tested the batteries and battery holder from the >non-working calculator in my other, working 41CX, so I know that they are >OK. The things I have tried since Sunday, to no avail, are: 1. Installed new batteries >2. Checked voltage across batteries when in the battery holder to make >sure >3. Gently scraped the contacts inside the battery compartment - there was >some oxidisation on a couple of the contacts >4. Swapped battery holders with the working HP41CX The calculator was fine until I removed the battery pack on Sunday after I >got a low battery level warning BAT on the (now non-working) HP-41CX. >Since then nothing I have done will make the calculator turn on. I recall that i had similar propblems with my hp41C on very rare occasion. At last I had always been successful with holding down backspace when switching on. Downside is Memory Loss. Sometimes it needed several attempts. HTH G.9fnter ==== leave batteries out for an extended period, say 24 hours. that way all the power is drained. be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== Of what you hear believe nothing, of what you see only the half. And keep on hoping. ;-) (Old greek wisdom, or new greek crazyness if you like.) Greetings, . > **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** > Somebody told me that in september, the new ROM was going to be released. Is > that true ? I'm eager for using the 1.19-7 Bye. > Leon. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** > http://www.usenet.com > Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ==== This unverified information is a rumor, X > Somebody told me that in september, the new ROM was going to be released. Is > that true ? I'm eager for using the 1.19-7 ==== **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** Ok, I'll go on dreaming. :-( bye, Leon. > This unverified information is a rumor, -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ==== > This unverified information is a rumor, :o( Guenpovi ==== I'm new to the 49, but I've been reading a lot about it's history. I know that HP shut down it's calculator development division, and that 1.18 was the last official firmware. I've upgraded to 1.19-6, and so far it looks great. I'm wondering who now owns the 49 firmware code? Is this the original code base from HP (1.18), or is it a complete rewrite? Are the original 49 developers still out there (hpcalc.org, Steve ==== > I'm new to the 49, but I've been reading a lot about it's history. I > know that HP shut down it's calculator development division, and that > 1.18 was the last official firmware. I've upgraded to 1.19-6, and so > far it looks great. I'm wondering who now owns the 49 firmware code? > Is this the original code base from HP (1.18), or is it a complete > rewrite? Are the original 49 developers still out there (hpcalc.org, It's a bit of both. The HP49 firmware is own by HP and license some part of it (without owning it) like : The CAS (some is own by Bernard Parisse, and the rest by Mika Heiskanen and Claude-Nicolas Fechter) Christian Bourgeois ==== I'm new to the 49, but I've been reading a lot about it's history. I > know that HP shut down it's calculator development division, and that > 1.18 was the last official firmware. I've upgraded to 1.19-6, and so > far it looks great. I'm wondering who now owns the 49 firmware code? > Is this the original code base from HP (1.18), or is it a complete > rewrite? Are the original 49 developers still out there (hpcalc.org, It's a bit of both. > The HP49 firmware is own by HP and license some part of it (without owning > it) like : > The CAS (some is own by Bernard Parisse, and the rest by Mika Heiskanen and > Claude-Nicolas Fechter) > Christian Bourgeois > And what about the rest of the 'intellectual' guts of the machine? The ROM and micro-code which does the unit conversions, the multiplication/stack handling etc...? Just curious...and wondering whether there is sufficient material Geoff ==== Perhaps somebody can be interested in little programs for the 15c (I'm sure, easily portable to other models) Sure they aren't good programs from the point of view of a programmer, but they're small and do the work... Triangle solver (sides-> angles&area) - 22 lines Quadratic equation (real and complex solutions) - 25 lines Entering statistic data with frequencies (traditional lack in hp calculators) - 23 lines Z-Confidence interval for mean - 13 lines Z-Confidence interval for proportion - 23 lines (also, two little programs for sample size) Binomial distribution - 19 lines I've written two programs, Normal distribution and inverse Normal distribution, that actually I don't use because their memory and time consuming. smaller and/or quicker I'll be happy if you send them to me. ==== How to I view a whole number with out the calc(49G) showing it in scientific notation. For example I want to see the whole 15 digit number for 2^50. Jamie ==== I'm not sure what you want, but here we go: 1) Check that [MODE] |CAS| _ Approx is un-checked. The Header should show something like: RAD XYZ HEX R= instead of R~ or DEG R<< DEC C= instead of C~ depending on your other mode settings. Note that there is a keyboard shortcut to change between ~/= Hold down [Right-Shift] while pressing [ENTER] or shortly: [RS]&[->NUM] 2a) Do not use a decimal point in your integer calculations: RPN: 2 50 [Y^x] ALG: 2^50 [ENTER] EQW: 2^50 [Up-Arrow] [UA] |EVAL| (on key [F4] ) 2b) You could use #binary integer with multiplication... I hope this helped you. > How to I view a whole number with out the calc(49G) showing it in scientific > notation. For example I want to see the whole 15 digit number for 2^50. Jamie ==== I own both a HP49G and a TI83+. With the TI I can graph a function, turn on trace, and then enter a value for x and it tells me what y is. How is this done with the 49G? ==== > I own both a HP49G and a TI83+. With the TI I can graph a function, turn on > trace, and then enter a value for x and it tells me what y is. How is this > done with the 49G? What Michael ask is how to know the Y value for X. Once you have entered your equation, press VAR. Input you value for X and use F corresponding to your function (Y1, Y2 ..etc) and admire the result ! Matthias Lopez ==== When in graph mode press F3 trac and use right and left cursor to move point. ed > I own both a HP49G and a TI83+. With the TI I can graph a function, turn on > trace, and then enter a value for x and it tells me what y is. How is this > done with the 49G? ==== Back in 1980's there was an HP-41 module based on a book called Beat The Racetrack by Dr William Ziemba (Dr. Z). Does anyone have one that they want to sell (in North America), or know of an HP-41 or HP-48 program to predict winners of horse races? ==== http://www.watertightcase.com/3000series.html it shpuld work they are also sold in the UK ==== http://jewel.morgan.edu/~rcobo/cgg/hpcase.jpg it is very strong. it can be locked with a padlock too. > http://www.watertightcase.com/3000series.html it shpuld work > they are also sold in the UK > ==== Errk It's ugly. I prefer the real original HP48 one.. My 0.02? -- Julien (Sunhp) Meyer Lead Programmer of Jadeware (C) 1998/2002. 639cb51.0209032237.232588ce@posting.google.com... > http://www.watertightcase.com/3000series.html it shpuld work > they are also sold in the UK > ==== I use a metallic school children's pencil case to hold my HP's. They fit perfectly with a minimum of slack. Some foam and even the Finnish post-office can not destroy my HP. > Errk It's ugly. I prefer the real original HP48 one.. My 0.02? > -- > Julien (Sunhp) Meyer > Lead Programmer of Jadeware (C) 1998/2002. 639cb51.0209032237.232588ce@posting.google.com... > http://www.watertightcase.com/3000series.html it shpuld work > they are also sold in the UK > ==== > I use a metallic school children's pencil case to hold my HP's. > They fit perfectly with a minimum of slack. > Some foam and even the Finnish post-office can not destroy my HP. yes, but it doesn't float! just kidding, he he. the real test is in my school backpack. if it survives there, then it is made of good stuff. ==== Well, I got them (from PowerOn, 800-673-6227) yesterday. The 39g is in the standard bubble pack. The 49g just comes with a User Guide in a plastic bag with no cable, warranty card, or anything else. The serial number is ID 94701476 and the rom version is 1.10. My next step is to try to install 19.6. BTW, tax was $12.14 and shipping was $8.00, for a total price for both of $128.13. Martin Cohen ==== http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top The Greek government has banned all electronic games across the country, including those that run on home computers, on Game Boy-style portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of tourists in Greece are unknowingly facing heavy fines or long terms in prison for owning mobile phones or portable video games. club is here to stay. ==== hitted the submit key twice. (Wrath!!!) > http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top The Greek government has banned all electronic games across the > country, including those that run on home computers, on Game Boy-style > portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of tourists in > Greece are unknowingly facing heavy fines or long terms in prison for > owning mobile phones or portable video games. I don't know if I should lough or cry...I'll do both. First the cry with wrath against the idiots called politicians in Greece. The word you in the following paragraphs is directly aimed to those idiots. - You, the higher ups politicians in Greece who continue ignoring human rights, decided to protect people by banning computer games this time, instead of banning the misery in education and corruption. Perhaps because the latter would mean that you would bann yourselfs. One could have understanding if you have decided banning games that deal with violence and killing, though this would be also very short sighted, because the reasons for playing such games are burried much much deeper than the surface that you, the ignorants, just scratch. Remember, when you decide against the will of people next time, you were (unfortunately) born in Greece, the land where direct democracy was also born. No Greek, including you the idiots, has the right to put such a dirt on the only things that we, greeks, have to rely on and be proud of. We don't possess the millions that you have eaten up in your political carrier, we don't have the luxury that you live in, thieving and lying all your lives. The only thing that we have is the knowledge of what Greece has given to the world. Exactly those ideals that you shamelessly f**cked up beyond recognition. In addition: Der Mensch spielt nur, wo er in voller Bedeutung des Wortes Mensch ist, und er ist nur da ganz Mensch, wo er spielt. ---------Friedrich von Schiller Trans: A human plays only there, where he/she is human in the whole sence of the word. And he/she is only there totally human, where he/she plays. You politicians ignored one more time the political/historical present that was given to the world by the Greeks without ever asking anything to return. But not only this. You also ignored the just this being human in the whole sence of the word. And you did this in a place where the dream of life was dreamed in one of its most beautiful version. Still in addition: -Playing computer games results in programming better ones, and to program better games is one of the things that push inovation to higher degrees. Only ignorants would want to prevent the people from thinking about new algorithms and new methods for programming. You, the ignorants who live permanently outside any development in our world, want to prevent inovation and thinking? Go on, you are not going to change anything for the better. Still, still in addition: -When next summer the number of tourists in Greece goes towards 0, you'll have to change your law again. Or have a small revolution of all people who earn for living from tourism. And greek revolutions are *not* that peaceful at all. ;-) And now the lough with sarcasm taken to the endth degree. You means again the political idiots in Greece. - You so called politicians in Greece, have totally lost the contact to your own people and the contact to everyday life. Do you really think that forbidding games will prevent anybody, especially the youngsters, playing games? Didn't you idiots notice that ignoring a Greek, just has the result of having him ignoring you ten times more? Do you want to have one more law that nobody cares about? Din't you notice that kids go their own ways, and if you push too hard, they do things they wouldn't do otherwise? Do you really think that anybody in Greece would just take that command of yours and act accordingly only because you can stand a couple of steps higher and shout about your political efforts? Hunderds of years in slavery were not enough to let the wish of Greeks for freedom vanish. Do you think that you are going to manage doing that in a few days? If you do, and it seems like you do, then you're going to get very very very bad news. We have withstanded much harder situations. We only have a tired smile for you, the wannabe patriarchs. You *will* dance to our rhythm, sooner or later. > club is here to stay. You bet it is. I never programmed games for the calcs but now perhaps I'll do and I'll send them to any friend in Greece that has an HP. Mwahahahahaaa, they want criminals? They're gonna get them! Gamings, . P.S: Es ist, als ob unsere Zivilisation den Anblick des Spielenden nicht mehr ertragen k.9anne, weil sie in seinem zweckfreien Tun eine Form der Freiheit wittert, die ihr Konzept st.9art. -----Friedrich Sieburg Trans: It is as if our civilization can no more stand the sight of a playing human, because this civilization smells a form of freedom in the purposeless doing of a game, that disturbs the very concepts of the civilization. ==== > I don't know if I should lough or cry...I'll do both. he, he. i'll join you. > First the cry with wrath against the idiots called politicians in > Greece. The word you in the following paragraphs is directly aimed > to those idiots. wherever you go, you find more or less the same. sometimes (like here) they get away with stuff like this (but not for too long). > - You, the higher ups politicians in Greece who continue ignoring > human rights, decided to protect people by banning computer games this > time, instead of banning the misery in education and corruption. > Perhaps because the latter would mean that you would bann yourselfs. > One could have understanding if you have decided banning games that > deal with violence and killing, though this would be also very short > sighted, because the reasons for playing such games are burried much > much deeper than the surface that you, the ignorants, just scratch. > Remember, when you decide against the will of people next time, you > were (unfortunately) born in Greece, the land where direct democracy > was also born. No Greek, including you the idiots, has the right to > put such a dirt on the only things that we, greeks, have to rely on > and be proud of. We don't possess the millions that you have eaten up > in your political carrier, we don't have the luxury that you live in, > thieving and lying all your lives. The only thing that we have is the > knowledge of what Greece has given to the world. Exactly those ideals > that you shamelessly f**cked up beyond recognition. In addition: > Der Mensch spielt nur, wo er in voller Bedeutung des Wortes Mensch > ist, und er ist nur da ganz Mensch, wo er spielt. > ---------Friedrich von Schiller > Trans: A human plays only there, where he/she is human in the whole > sence of the word. And he/she is only there totally human, where > he/she plays. > You politicians ignored one more time the political/historical present > that was given to the world by the Greeks without ever asking anything > to return. But not only this. You also ignored the just this being > human in the whole sence of the word. And you did this in a place > where the dream of life was dreamed in one of its most beautiful > version. Still in addition: > -Playing computer games results in programming better ones, and to > program better games is one of the things that push inovation to > higher degrees. Only ignorants would want to prevent the people from > thinking about new algorithms and new methods for programming. You, > the ignorants who live permanently outside any development in our > world, want to prevent inovation and thinking? Go on, you are not > going to change anything for the better. Still, still in addition: > -When next summer the number of tourists in Greece goes towards 0, > you'll have to change your law again. Or have a small revolution of > all people who earn for living from tourism. And greek revolutions are > *not* that peaceful at all. ;-) > And now the lough with sarcasm taken to the endth degree. You means > again the political idiots in Greece. - You so called politicians in Greece, have totally lost the contact > to your own people and the contact to everyday life. Do you really > think that forbidding games will prevent anybody, especially the > youngsters, playing games? Didn't you idiots notice that ignoring a > Greek, just has the result of having him ignoring you ten times more? > Do you want to have one more law that nobody cares about? Din't you > notice that kids go their own ways, and if you push too hard, they do > things they wouldn't do otherwise? Do you really think that anybody in > Greece would just take that command of yours and act accordingly only > because you can stand a couple of steps higher and shout about your > political efforts? Hunderds of years in slavery were not enough to > let the wish of Greeks for freedom vanish. Do you think that you are > going to manage doing that in a few days? If you do, and it seems like > you do, then you're going to get very very very bad news. We have > withstanded much harder situations. We only have a tired smile for > you, the wannabe patriarchs. You *will* dance to our rhythm, sooner or > later. club is here to stay. You bet it is. I never programmed games for the calcs but now perhaps > I'll do and I'll send them to any friend in Greece that has an HP. > Mwahahahahaaa, they want criminals? They're gonna get them! the NK revenge! ( add me too the team ) hey. one Greek student could make a security program in the HP49G so that only he could access the file system and the games (with password) :) if they get the HP49G, just play dummy (or make stealh games that do not show up on file system). if the Greek gov wants to find out they would have to post a message here to try to figure it out he, he. he could load it to hpcalc as a historical program (the 2002 Greek revolution). > Gamings, > . P.S: > Es ist, als ob unsere Zivilisation den Anblick des Spielenden nicht > mehr ertragen k.9anne, weil sie in seinem zweckfreien Tun eine Form der > Freiheit wittert, die ihr Konzept st.9art. -----Friedrich Sieburg Trans: It is as if our civilization can no more stand the sight of a > playing human, because this civilization smells a form of freedom in > the purposeless doing of a game, that disturbs the very concepts of > the civilization. Greekings. ==== I don't know if I should lough or cry...I'll do both. he, he. i'll join you. > First the cry with wrath against the idiots called politicians in > Greece. The word you in the following paragraphs is directly aimed > to those idiots. wherever you go, you find more or less the same. sometimes (like here) > they get away with stuff like this (but not for too long). > But Newsweek has already rated it to be even dirter than the Belousconi-Government. I mean, can you imagine what could be even dirtier? I thought that he and his team were the top of all possible corruption, as they have all power in their hands. (They even sell out old Roman culture.) But no! The Greek government proved me wrong. It is possible to be even more corrupted. How much corruption is necessary to outperfome Belousconi? For heaven's sake! > club is here to stay. You bet it is. I never programmed games for the calcs but now perhaps > I'll do and I'll send them to any friend in Greece that has an HP. > Mwahahahahaaa, they want criminals? They're gonna get them! the NK revenge! ( add me too the team ) OK! The highly explosive kernel of the team has just taken form. :-) > hey. one Greek student could make a security program in the HP49G so > that only he could access the file system and the games (with > password) :) Yes, but a password with greek letters. Or perhaps chinese? ;-) >if they get the HP49G, just play dummy (or make stealh > games that do not show up on file system). if the Greek gov wants to > find out they would have to post a message here to try to figure it > out he, he. he could load it to hpcalc as a historical program (the > 2002 Greek revolution). Yeah, and then make a program that detects the presence of greek gov members and sends the Trabakoulas-Virus to their calcs. For those about to play, I salute you, . ==== I think you might have missed the point. Grece has a huge problem with gambeling and money machines (ie: these casino electronic games stuff), and they declared that 1: they are not able to distinguish between video game and gambeling games and 2) that peoples are using normal video games for gambeling purposes... This is why they descided to ban every game... a little like the prohibition in the US, because peoples could get drunk with any type of alcohol, they even banned wine! how shamefull! > hitted the submit key twice. (Wrath!!!) http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top The Greek government has banned all electronic games across the > country, including those that run on home computers, on Game Boy-style > portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of tourists in > Greece are unknowingly facing heavy fines or long terms in prison for > owning mobile phones or portable video games. I don't know if I should lough or cry...I'll do both. First the cry with wrath against the idiots called politicians in > Greece. The word you in the following paragraphs is directly aimed > to those idiots. - You, the higher ups politicians in Greece who continue ignoring > human rights, decided to protect people by banning computer games this > time, instead of banning the misery in education and corruption. > Perhaps because the latter would mean that you would bann yourselfs. > One could have understanding if you have decided banning games that > deal with violence and killing, though this would be also very short > sighted, because the reasons for playing such games are burried much > much deeper than the surface that you, the ignorants, just scratch. > Remember, when you decide against the will of people next time, you > were (unfortunately) born in Greece, the land where direct democracy > was also born. No Greek, including you the idiots, has the right to > put such a dirt on the only things that we, greeks, have to rely on > and be proud of. We don't possess the millions that you have eaten up > in your political carrier, we don't have the luxury that you live in, > thieving and lying all your lives. The only thing that we have is the > knowledge of what Greece has given to the world. Exactly those ideals > that you shamelessly f**cked up beyond recognition. In addition: > Der Mensch spielt nur, wo er in voller Bedeutung des Wortes Mensch > ist, und er ist nur da ganz Mensch, wo er spielt. > ---------Friedrich von Schiller > Trans: A human plays only there, where he/she is human in the whole > sence of the word. And he/she is only there totally human, where > he/she plays. > You politicians ignored one more time the political/historical present > that was given to the world by the Greeks without ever asking anything > to return. But not only this. You also ignored the just this being > human in the whole sence of the word. And you did this in a place > where the dream of life was dreamed in one of its most beautiful > version. Still in addition: > -Playing computer games results in programming better ones, and to > program better games is one of the things that push inovation to > higher degrees. Only ignorants would want to prevent the people from > thinking about new algorithms and new methods for programming. You, > the ignorants who live permanently outside any development in our > world, want to prevent inovation and thinking? Go on, you are not > going to change anything for the better. Still, still in addition: > -When next summer the number of tourists in Greece goes towards 0, > you'll have to change your law again. Or have a small revolution of > all people who earn for living from tourism. And greek revolutions are > *not* that peaceful at all. ;-) > And now the lough with sarcasm taken to the endth degree. You means > again the political idiots in Greece. - You so called politicians in Greece, have totally lost the contact > to your own people and the contact to everyday life. Do you really > think that forbidding games will prevent anybody, especially the > youngsters, playing games? Didn't you idiots notice that ignoring a > Greek, just has the result of having him ignoring you ten times more? > Do you want to have one more law that nobody cares about? Din't you > notice that kids go their own ways, and if you push too hard, they do > things they wouldn't do otherwise? Do you really think that anybody in > Greece would just take that command of yours and act accordingly only > because you can stand a couple of steps higher and shout about your > political efforts? Hunderds of years in slavery were not enough to > let the wish of Greeks for freedom vanish. Do you think that you are > going to manage doing that in a few days? If you do, and it seems like > you do, then you're going to get very very very bad news. We have > withstanded much harder situations. We only have a tired smile for > you, the wannabe patriarchs. You *will* dance to our rhythm, sooner or > later. club is here to stay. You bet it is. I never programmed games for the calcs but now perhaps > I'll do and I'll send them to any friend in Greece that has an HP. > Mwahahahahaaa, they want criminals? They're gonna get them! Gamings, > . P.S: > Es ist, als ob unsere Zivilisation den Anblick des Spielenden nicht > mehr ertragen k.9anne, weil sie in seinem zweckfreien Tun eine Form der > Freiheit wittert, die ihr Konzept st.9art. -----Friedrich Sieburg Trans: It is as if our civilization can no more stand the sight of a > playing human, because this civilization smells a form of freedom in > the purposeless doing of a game, that disturbs the very concepts of > the civilization. ==== I think you might have missed the point. Grece has a huge problem with > gambeling and money machines (ie: these casino electronic games stuff), and > they declared that 1: they are not able to distinguish between video game > and gambeling games and 2) that peoples are using normal video games for > gambeling purposes... This is why they descided to ban every game... a > little like the prohibition in the US, because peoples could get drunk with > any type of alcohol, they even banned wine! how shamefull! and for the Greek Government. But, on the one hand even if the amount of money being spent for games is so huge, hey! It's *the people's* money. If they want, they'll should be able to throw that out of the window. And on the other hand, nobody in the government seems to care that an even bigger amount of money gets lost in the pockets of our politicians. And as you say, such prohibitions have always done exactly the opposite than that that was intended. Our politicians should have sufficient knowledge of history to know that. But what can you expect when the highest positions in Greek government are occupied by the least educated? Greetings, . ==== > and for the Greek Government. But, on the one hand even if the amount > of money being spent for games is so huge, hey! It's *the people's* > money. If they want, they'll should be able to throw that out of the > window. Well, I have to disegree with that.. You have your normal gambelers, and these ones should be allow to keep doing so, but you have also the 'drugged' ones, the ones that can not stop, and they are throwing their familly money away, resulting in devastation of the familly, lake of education, food and all the rest, and you also have even worst cases of lost of responsability, a couple of years ago in australia, a women went for a 'quiky' and left out the one handed bandit a couple of hours later, handcuffed! she had just 'forgot' her 1 year old daughter to bake in the car with an outside temperature of over 40Á! and this should not be allowed! ==== and for the Greek Government. But, on the one hand even if the amount > of money being spent for games is so huge, hey! It's *the people's* > money. If they want, they'll should be able to throw that out of the > window. Well, I have to disegree with that.. Yeah, and that's good. Disagreement and discussion, the main reasons for creation of new things :-) > You have your normal gambelers, and these ones should be allow to keep doing > so, but you have also the 'drugged' ones, the ones that can not stop, and > they are throwing their familly money away, resulting in devastation of the > familly, lake of education, food and all the rest, and you also have even > worst cases of lost of responsability, a couple of years ago in australia, a > women went for a 'quiky' and left out the one handed bandit a couple of > hours later, handcuffed! she had just 'forgot' her 1 year old daughter to > bake in the car with an outside temperature of over 40Á! and this should not > be allowed! > But Cyrille, first of all, who decides what is a normal gabler? The government who still gambles with the lifes of millions of people? The common mind? The laws? In other words, who's gonna control the controllers? In addition: In your example the bad thing was not that that woman played. The bad thing was that she forgot her daughter. That's two different pairs of shoes. If she had only played, for hours for weeks, even for years, but without hurting anybody, except perhaps herself, then nobody on this world would have the right to say anything bad about her, any even less to punish her for the game. One could try in this hypothetical case to help her, driven by human sympathy but to punish her because she just lose her whole money in games, well, that's too much for me. Anyway, keep on disagreeing. Or esle we have all one opinion, and that will be (for me) the end of life. (You do your best to keep my alive, it seems ;-) Greetings, . ==== http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2122118,00.html Ahhhh !!! The Greeks are indeed incompatible with Greeks! ==== > http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2122118,00.html > Ahhhh !!! > The Greeks are indeed incompatible with Greeks! It would be easier to count what the Greeks are compatible with. The sequence of such things that Greeks are compatible to, breaks at n=0. ;-) A text passage from the above link: Nobody from the members of the parliament realised or could foresee the effects that this would have for PC games, Internet games and game consoles, simply because they are not familiar with that side of technology Now imagine what idiots are in our gov, when they didn't even realized what computer and communication technology means in our days. These ignorants have the fate of approx. 10 millions people in their hands. WAKE UP GREEK POLITICIANS, WE LIVE IN 2002!!!! . ==== > they are throwing their familly money away, resulting in devastation of the > familly, lake of education, food and all the rest, and you also have even > worst cases of lost of responsability, a couple of years ago in australia, a > women went for a 'quiky' and left out the one handed bandit a couple of > hours later, handcuffed! she had just 'forgot' her 1 year old daughter to > bake in the car with an outside temperature of over 40Á! and this should not > be allowed! but this is not allowed already, why do you think she ended-up handcuffed ? You have to stop thinking that the government should act as the ultimate authority and the father of all, showing the guidance to its people. There are limits that must be followed. If you always assume that what the government is doing is for your own good and that you should follow him blindly, you end-up like in pre-WW2 and Nazi Germany with a whole population following blindly because some highly placed morons said so. Banning has NEVER been a solution and has never solved a problem (and there are hundreds of examples). There are many ways to stop this kind of extreme examples to happen. For example, gambling companies could be held liable if anybody becomes addicted to their services and commit a crime by negligence. You may dislike gambling (and I do too), but banning it will just make need of people to gamble. And remember also that no laws can prevent human stupidity. You also seem to give too much credit to the Greek government. The fact that they passed a law to ban any games as little to do with their will to help people and make them stop gambling. All they wanted to achieve was to stop secure and reliable way for a government to make money easily (like legal gambling) and you will see if this (supposed to be) so kind government will ban it. ==== There are always idiots in any society and people who should have been sterilised rather than allowing them to have children. Just because she happened to choose this particular method to abuse her children is a condemnation of her not of the method. Should we ban alcohol because a few people become alcoholics? >>they are throwing their familly money away, resulting in devastation of > the > >>familly, lake of education, food and all the rest, and you also have even >>worst cases of lost of responsability, a couple of years ago in australia, > a > >>women went for a 'quiky' and left out the one handed bandit a couple of >>hours later, handcuffed! she had just 'forgot' her 1 year old daughter to >>bake in the car with an outside temperature of over 40Á! and this should > not > >>be allowed! >> but this is not allowed already, why do you think she ended-up handcuffed ? You have to stop thinking that the government should act as the ultimate > authority and the father of all, showing the guidance to its people. There > are limits that must be followed. > If you always assume that what the government is doing is for your own good > and that you should follow him blindly, you end-up like in pre-WW2 and Nazi > Germany with a whole population following blindly because some highly placed > morons said so. Banning has NEVER been a solution and has never solved a problem (and there > are hundreds of examples). > There are many ways to stop this kind of extreme examples to happen. For > example, gambling companies could be held liable if anybody becomes addicted > to their services and commit a crime by negligence. > You may dislike gambling (and I do too), but banning it will just make > need of people to gamble. And remember also that no laws can prevent human stupidity. You also seem to give too much credit to the Greek government. The fact that > they passed a law to ban any games as little to do with their will to help > people and make them stop gambling. All they wanted to achieve was to stop > secure and reliable way for a government to make money easily (like legal > gambling) and you will see if this (supposed to be) so kind government will > ban it. ==== > Should we ban alcohol because a > few people become alcoholics? Or ban cars, because they unfortunately quite often are in the hands of irresponsible people, who are a huge danger, not only to themselves, but also to other people and their property - not to talk about the economical strain they put on a society. No, banning is rarely the right choice... ==== > Or ban cars, because they unfortunately quite often are in the hands of > irresponsible people, who are a huge danger, not only to themselves, but As of today, I would vote that we ban doors as well after one nastily tried to crunch my hand. Obviously, if doors (and probably windows too) didn't exist such accident wouldn't happen. It would also drop the break-in robbery counts by a significant factor as there would be nothing to break anymore to get in. Plastic bags should also be ban, you can suffocate if you put one on top of your head. Sure you usually see signs and notes saying that a plastic bag is not a toy, but how is a 4 years old child going to read the warnings if he can't read ? Baseball bat should be ban, it seems that in the US more and more people (including 13 and 14 year old kids) are using them to beat to death their abusing father. The world is a huge playground for idiots ==== > The world is a huge playground for idiots Yes, and it gets quite dangerous when they decide to do serious work ;-) Greetings, . ==== > Should we ban alcohol because a > few people become alcoholics? Or ban cars, because they unfortunately quite often are in the hands of > irresponsible people, who are a huge danger, not only to themselves, but > also to other people and their property - not to talk about the economical > strain they put on a society. No, banning is rarely the right choice... > I think smoking should be banned... This way, people who smoke will pay a lot for bad quality cigarettes, so they will die poorer and younger and at last I'll be able to enjoy a walk without losing a lung. Hey, I'm in superb form, tonight! Seriously, now, and more on topic, what's the status of HP48 in 49 in Greece, since there's heaps of games for them? Gerald. ==== >>>Should we ban alcohol because a >>>few people become alcoholics? >>>No, banning is rarely the right choice... > I think smoking should be banned... > This way, people who smoke will pay a lot for bad quality cigarettes, so they will > die poorer and younger and at last I'll be able to enjoy a walk without losing a > lung. I don't think we're going to have to ban cigarettes. There was a (by someone who's opinion counts) that a case could be made for the companies to be charged with multiple counts of murder. The premise being that they are now being legally judged responsible and they didn't have any less information 20 years ago and so, legally, they've been continuing to supply a substance that they knew was deadly. Considering there have been 800,000 deaths in Australia alone since 1950 and continue at 50/day, that makes a lot of murder indictments. ==== >>>Should we ban alcohol because a >>>few people become alcoholics? Yes, because *I* don't drink > I think smoking should be banned... Yes, because, _I_ don't smoke Games? Yes, because I don't play (that often) Cars? Yes, because I don't own one BUT seriously folks: that is put in to the users upper lip. You may still buy it from Sweden or from tax-free shops on air-ports or on ships They should have done the opposite! Why? Cigar/Cigarette smoke goes to other persons lungs, too. That's the only thing that I would ban and with a reason! Veli-Pekka ==== I think you might have missed the point. Grece has a huge problem with > gambeling and money machines (ie: these casino electronic games stuff), and > they declared that 1: they are not able to distinguish between video game > and gambeling games and 2) that peoples are using normal video games for > gambeling purposes... This is why they descided to ban every game... a > little like the prohibition in the US, because peoples could get drunk with > any type of alcohol, they even banned wine! how shamefull! How come on!... How can it be ever possible to justify such a dumb law. Did the prohibition achieved anything ? It was a period of crime at its peak. This is not just gaming, it's part of education. Are you telling me that all Game is part of education, it's the best way to learn and it probably the way people have been learning from the beginning of human kind. Why do you think teachers are always trying to make what they are teaching FUN? because that's the only way a kid will ever learn. I doubt this law will stay forever, it's the most stupid thing I have EVER heard (except maybe each time Mr G. W. Bush open its mouth) ==== > How come on!... How can it be ever possible to justify such a dumb law. Did > the prohibition achieved anything ? It was a period of crime at its peak. I wonder why!? But actually, prohibition *did* reduce the overall consumption of alcohol in the US by a LOT. It did what it was designed to do.. but it also had some undesired side effects.. which I'm guessing is a big part of why they got rid of it! > This is not just gaming, it's part of education. Are you telling me that all > Game is part of education, it's the best way to learn and it probably the > way people have been learning from the beginning of human kind. > Why do you think teachers are always trying to make what they are teaching > FUN? because that's the only way a kid will ever learn. You'd have to imagine what they were trying to accomplish was something different than what it ended up being. It seems like one of those punish all for the crimes of a few. It was the same thing that happened in the United States with prohibition.. of course it was also part of a religous movement at the time that ended up taking things to an extreme. I think this falls in the category: ideas that have good intent but dont turn out that way because they are simlpy impractical. > I doubt this law will stay forever, it's the most stupid thing I have EVER > heard I've heard more stupid things, but I'd tend to agree with you. I wonder if games also includes competitions such as the Olympic games. Imagine if Greece no longer participated in the Olympics.. wouldn't that be the ultimate irony!? Aaron ==== > I think you might have missed the point. Grece has a huge problem with > gambeling and money machines (ie: these casino electronic games stuff), > and > they declared that 1: they are not able to distinguish between video game > and gambeling games and 2) that peoples are using normal video games for > gambeling purposes... This is why they descided to ban every game... a > little like the prohibition in the US, because peoples could get drunk > with > any type of alcohol, they even banned wine! how shamefull! How come on!... How can it be ever possible to justify such a dumb law. Did > the prohibition achieved anything ? It was a period of crime at its peak. Yep! > This is not just gaming, it's part of education. Are you telling me that all > Game is part of education, it's the best way to learn and it probably the > way people have been learning from the beginning of human kind. > Why do you think teachers are always trying to make what they are teaching > FUN? because that's the only way a kid will ever learn. Exactly! > I doubt this law will stay forever, it's the most stupid thing I have EVER > heard (except maybe each time Mr G. W. Bush open its mouth) Mon capitaine! With all my respect I may disagree with you about Mr. Bush being able to outperform the stupidity of our government. After all we must have something in Greece that keeps the world record. Even if this something is the most dumb laws in the whole universe! ;-) (Believe me there are much more laws of this kind in Greece) Greetings, . ==== I've many Greek customers who bought me our computer games at Jadeware, what about if they can't play it anymore ? Totally stupid law, I hate about this.. -- Julien (Sunhp) Meyer Lead Programmer of Jadeware (C) 1998/2002. 639cb51.0209041204.f6b77a5@posting.google.com... > http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top The Greek government has banned all electronic games across the > country, including those that run on home computers, on Game Boy-style > portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of tourists in > Greece are unknowingly facing heavy fines or long terms in prison for > owning mobile phones or portable video games. club is here to stay. ==== > I've many Greek customers who bought me our computer games at Jadeware, what > about if they can't play it anymore ? > Totally stupid law, I hate about this.. Stupid politicians just can't make any intelligent laws. Gamings, . ==== I hate games on a business computer and I always remove them from my employers Windows system with one exception: Eiffel Oy bought me a Philips Velo (I asked for a HP 320) and the Solitaire was in ROM ! I'm glad that I'm not in any country with stupid laws possessing my current HP Jornada 720 (which also comes with Solitaire in ROM) OR with a HP 48GX with a MINEHUNT in ROM.... BUT I guess I would be safe if I don't play it publicly ;-) Wanna bet on which one of us is the better in Solitaire/MINEHUNT, ?? PS: The Greeks are incompatible even with Greeks ;-) > http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top The Greek government has banned all electronic games across the > country, including those that run on home computers, on Game Boy-style > portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of tourists in > Greece are unknowingly facing heavy fines or long terms in prison for > owning mobile phones or portable video games. club is here to stay. ==== >> I hate games on a business computer and I always >> remove them from my employers Windows system >> with one exception: Eiffel Oy bought me a Philips Velo >> (I asked for a HP 320) and the Solitaire was in ROM ! You poor guy! Greek laws made a criminal out of you ;-) >> I'm glad that I'm not in any country with stupid laws >> possessing my current HP Jornada 720 >> (which also comes with Solitaire in ROM) >> OR >> with a HP 48GX with a MINEHUNT in ROM.... >> BUT Oh no! I also have the 48GX. And the 49G with its tetris. What am I gonna do? Help! I'm scared to death ;-) >> I guess I would be safe if I don't play it publicly >> ;-) Perhaps they already wired each and every house and they are watching us, while we play? Let me see. What's that under the phone? Oh no, a micro camera and a transmitter. They caught me! ;-) > Wanna bet on which one of us is the better in > Solitaire/MINEHUNT, ?? Hahaha! I don't have half a chance. I play so incompatible that the programs crash. But let's go for a competition. How can we do that? And how can many many others participate? And of course, you let me win and I send the (signed) tetris diploma to every politician in Greece along with many greekkings, this time I hope from everyone out there. > PS: The Greeks are incompatible even with Greeks ;-) Now you understood us. That's why we have 10 millions Greeks and 20 millions political parties in Greece. Phenomenon also know as political inflation or, as Harry Klinn, a greek comedian said: How comes that so few people, in such a small country, in such a short time, have managed to do so big stupidities? Each Greek seems to be most incompatible with his/herself, though the degree of incompatibility to anything else except the own self is already in unbelievable high degrees. (Trabakoulas does math, in order to forget about the steady contradiction with anything.) ;-) > http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top The Greek government has banned all electronic games across the > country, including those that run on home computers, on Game Boy-style > portable consoles, and on mobile phones. Thousands of tourists in > Greece are unknowingly facing heavy fines or long terms in prison for > owning mobile phones or portable video games. club is here to stay. Gamings, . P.S: Come on people, play more! Let the machines fume and smoke! ==== > I hate games on a business computer and I always >> remove them from my employers Windows system >> with one exception: Eiffel Oy bought me a Philips Velo >> (I asked for a HP 320) and the Solitaire was in ROM ! You poor guy! Greek laws made a criminal out of you ;-) Are the new greek laws in accordance with European laws? I bet one could argue something like that at a European court -- ==== >... >Are the new greek laws in accordance with >European laws? I bet one could argue something >like that at a European court >... That's exactly the point I have discussed with a colleague yesterday. integrated in its firmware. So, many mobile phone manufacturers are handicapped with Greece, since they either can't sell anymore their phones, or they are forced to rewrite the firmware especially for Greece. Sooner or later some European Court will outlaw this law fur sure. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralf Fritzsch Bundesanstalt fuer Wasserbau Federal Waterways Engineering and Research Dienststelle Kueste Institute - Department Hamburg ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ==== >... >Are the new greek laws in accordance with >European laws? I bet one could argue something >like that at a European court >... That's exactly the point I have discussed with a colleague yesterday. > integrated in its firmware. So, many mobile phone manufacturers are > handicapped with Greece, since they either can't sell anymore their > phones, or they are forced to rewrite the firmware especially for Greece. Sooner or later some European Court will outlaw this law fur sure. If you knew how many such laws exist in Greece that should have been outlawed since decades, you wouldn't be so optimistic. But, anyway thanks for your optimism, it encourages me that perhaps some time in the future we, Greeks, will have modern laws. Greetings, err still gamings, . ==== I was walking past an electronics store and saw an HP32SII in the window. Apparently they're discontinued and this was a leftover -- it was down to $39 Canadian, and given the pathetic value of the Canadian dollar, that's practically free. So I added it to my other HP calculators (45, 48, 49). My first impression is that it's just amazing how much they could cram into it. Really comprehensive. It doesn't look as if it has softkey menus, but it does, and there sure are a lot of commands buried in there. And the manual is first-rate, even better than the HP48 book. I had a bit of trouble at first (it wouldn't behave the way the manual said) until I realized that the stack entry is the old classic style, more like the HP45 than the HP48. And of course, there are only four levels (I've been spoiled by the 48). Oddity: I couldn't find any command to clear the stack. All the other calcs have that. At least it's no problem writing a short program to do it. The programming is a bit awkward compared to UserRPL, but it's very concise. It has to be, since there are only 384 bytes of user RAM. I know it was designed in the 80s, but I thought they'd have expanded it by now. Oh well, lots of memory encourages sloppy programming (see Gates, Bill). The speed: for short calculations there isn't much difference from the 48, but for long ones (a hefty integral, say) it takes 6-7 times as long. But then that's why it can run on three button cells. In short, I think it's just great and a first-class backup for my bigger calcs. Grab one if you can find one. Bill ==== > My first impression is that it's just amazing how much they > could cram into it. Really comprehensive. It doesn't look > as if it has softkey menus, but it does, and there sure are > a lot of commands buried in there. And the manual is > first-rate, even better than the HP48 book. > I agree- none of the 28/48/49 manuals have stacked up. And yeah- there's a ton of good functionality in there. If you don't mind the memory issues it will easily get you through most courses in school, and is my favorite pocket calc (my 42s is just to pricey to put in a pocket)for daily use. > The programming is a bit awkward compared to UserRPL, but > it's very concise. It has to be, since there are only 384 > bytes of user RAM. I know it was designed in the 80s, but I > thought they'd have expanded it by now. Oh well, lots of > memory encourages sloppy programming (see Gates, Bill). I find the programming much easier and more task-useable than UserRPL, actually. The RAM is a bit of an issue- and it's just life in HP land- the 20S has 99 steps, when it would have dominated in its price range (under $40US) to this day if it had 384. The 32SII would have sold a lot longer and better, perhaps, if they'd managed to cram in 3-4KB more without raising the price more than $15. > In short, I think it's just great and a first-class backup > for my bigger calcs. Grab one if you can find one. It is that- and more than a backup, as long as you don't have needs that max the memory it is a fine primary calculator. It's drastically more useful than any of the other non graphing (IE pocket) calcs out there. (barring the possible exceptions of the 20S for algebraic entry, the 42S for people who can afford $250 pocket breakages).... -- while E <> ==== Apparently others share your feelings about the 32sii. Check out the selling/buying frenzy on Ebay. Bob > I was walking past an electronics store and saw an HP32SII > in the window. Apparently they're discontinued and this was > a leftover -- it was down to $39 Canadian, and given the > pathetic value of the Canadian dollar, that's practically free. So I added it to my other HP calculators (45, 48, 49). My first impression is that it's just amazing how much they > could cram into it. Really comprehensive. It doesn't look > as if it has softkey menus, but it does, and there sure are > a lot of commands buried in there. And the manual is > first-rate, even better than the HP48 book. I had a bit of trouble at first (it wouldn't behave the way > the manual said) until I realized that the stack entry is > the old classic style, more like the HP45 than the HP48. > And of course, there are only four levels (I've been spoiled > by the 48). Oddity: I couldn't find any command to clear the stack. All > the other calcs have that. At least it's no problem writing > a short program to do it. The programming is a bit awkward compared to UserRPL, but > it's very concise. It has to be, since there are only 384 > bytes of user RAM. I know it was designed in the 80s, but I > thought they'd have expanded it by now. Oh well, lots of > memory encourages sloppy programming (see Gates, Bill). The speed: for short calculations there isn't much > difference from the 48, but for long ones (a hefty integral, > say) it takes 6-7 times as long. But then that's why it can > run on three button cells. In short, I think it's just great and a first-class backup > for my bigger calcs. Grab one if you can find one. Bill > ==== I bought a 32SII as a backup and have to disagree. The miserly 384 bytes memory effectively renders any of the other advanced features useless. Just one equation for the built in Solver used a third of the memory. Would have been a lovely calc with even 8k of memory. Nice display, keyboard etc. It's a good scientific calculator but thats all. I guess I just wish it was a HP42. > I was walking past an electronics store and saw an HP32SII > in the window. Apparently they're discontinued and this was > a leftover -- it was down to $39 Canadian, and given the > pathetic value of the Canadian dollar, that's practically free. So I added it to my other HP calculators (45, 48, 49). My first impression is that it's just amazing how much they > could cram into it. Really comprehensive. It doesn't look > as if it has softkey menus, but it does, and there sure are > a lot of commands buried in there. And the manual is > first-rate, even better than the HP48 book. I had a bit of trouble at first (it wouldn't behave the way > the manual said) until I realized that the stack entry is > the old classic style, more like the HP45 than the HP48. > And of course, there are only four levels (I've been spoiled > by the 48). Oddity: I couldn't find any command to clear the stack. All > the other calcs have that. At least it's no problem writing > a short program to do it. The programming is a bit awkward compared to UserRPL, but > it's very concise. It has to be, since there are only 384 > bytes of user RAM. I know it was designed in the 80s, but I > thought they'd have expanded it by now. Oh well, lots of > memory encourages sloppy programming (see Gates, Bill). The speed: for short calculations there isn't much > difference from the 48, but for long ones (a hefty integral, > say) it takes 6-7 times as long. But then that's why it can > run on three button cells. In short, I think it's just great and a first-class backup > for my bigger calcs. Grab one if you can find one. Bill ==== Bill Markwick escribi.97 en el mensaje Oddity: I couldn't find any command to clear the stack. All > the other calcs have that. At least it's no problem writing > a short program to do it. > I think that clear stack usually is not needed, but I guess (as I don't use that model) there is a command like CLEAR sigma of the 15c... This clears stack and statistic registers. Hope this helps. PS: Also you can do: 0 ENTER ENTER ENTER... ==== The 32sII is an excellent calc. be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== My junior year of high school I won a 48gx and tried to use it at first, but I was really clumsy with it and used my ti86 for the remainder of high school (mainly because all the teachers at my school require the use of a ti83+ or 86 and offer no help with any other calulators). So here I am in college and just getting around to really using it, and I was wondering how to symbolically expand something like (a+b)^3 to the full form. Any help? ~joe ==== Jotux escribi.97 en el mensaje > My junior year of high school I won a 48gx and tried to use it at first, but > I was really clumsy with it and used my ti86 for the remainder of high > school (mainly because all the teachers at my school require the use of a > ti83+ or 86 and offer no help with any other calulators). So here I am in > college and just getting around to really using it, and I was wondering how > to symbolically expand something like (a+b)^3 to the full form. Any help? > ~joe > If really you want use your 48, I recommend you ordering two RAM cards (128kb and 1Mb) from http://uuhome.de/oklotz/index_e.html . Installing the most powerfull calculators for 65 euros. You'll need some time for reading the documentation, but it is worth. Also, download the AUR. ==== EVAL works. I find playing with the EVAL FACTOR and SIMP in the EQW are my first quickest steps to manipulatiing an equation. If they don't do what I want then I pull out the manual. > My junior year of high school I won a 48gx and tried to use it at first, but > I was really clumsy with it and used my ti86 for the remainder of high > school (mainly because all the teachers at my school require the use of a > ti83+ or 86 and offer no help with any other calulators). So here I am in > college and just getting around to really using it, and I was wondering how > to symbolically expand something like (a+b)^3 to the full form. Any help? > ~joe ==== Original question [re HP48GX]: > how to symbolically expand something like '(a+b)^3' to the full form. On 48GX, try this program, found in the Advanced User's Reference (AUR): << DO DUP EXPAN UNTIL DUP ROT SAME END DO DUP COLCT UNTIL DUP ROT SAME END >> 'EXCO' STO > EVAL works. Not on HP48G[X] > EVAL FACTOR and SIMP in the EQW Not on HP48G[X] > pull out the manual The AUR didn't come with the HP48G[X] (and is no longer available, although you can still order a photocopy for as little as US $75 :) [r->] [OFF] . ==== Sorry, didn't even cross my mind that the behaviour would be different between the 48 and 49 for such a basic command. Guess this is an example where the extra functionality of the 49 is worth the slight speed drop due to the processing and handling of the extra types. Stephen.N > Original question [re HP48GX]: how to symbolically expand something like '(a+b)^3' to the full form. On 48GX, try this program, > found in the Advanced User's Reference (AUR): << DO DUP EXPAN UNTIL DUP ROT SAME END > DO DUP COLCT UNTIL DUP ROT SAME END >> 'EXCO' STO EVAL works. Not on HP48G[X] EVAL FACTOR and SIMP in the EQW Not on HP48G[X] pull out the manual The AUR didn't come with the HP48G[X] > (and is no longer available, although you can > still order a photocopy for as little as US $75 :) [r->] [OFF] . ==== > the extra functionality of the 49 is worth the slight speed drop > due to the processing and handling of the extra types. Although the example I'm about to cite is atypical, here is a case where an old HP48 [S/G] command takes *15*times* as long to execute on the 49G (and so does a program of mine which needs to use that command): http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=2953da04.0201290432.23a461f8%40posti ng.google.com Why was that old 48[S/G] command even altered at all (it is incompatible on the 49G with the way it worked on the 48S/48G, when the new 49G CAS SOLVE command replaces it completely in the CAS? So that's why my old 48[S/G] triangle solver program isn't 49G certified (and never will be :) http://www.mum.edu . ==== reporting that a friend's web site was entirely invisible on the google system (was not listed at all) despite being happily picked up by many others, including msn, hotbot, lycos, web crawler, excite... I told them that I'd had the site checked out by experienced programmers who confirmed it has all the necessary keywords, correct source coding, etc and that the fault is probably with google's procedures. again on Aug 6 (3 months later!) to get another automated response [#721242] and here we are today, another month on with still no response despite many reminders in between. Maybe google is working so hard on the problem of this invisible site that it is just too busy to reply. Or maybe google are just a bunch of hippie chancers who don't give two flying fucks about the people who use their system. ==== > was entirely invisible on the google system (was not listed at all) > despite being happily picked up by many others, including msn, > hotbot, lycos, web crawler, excite... > I told them that I'd had the site checked out by experienced > programmers who confirmed it has all the necessary keywords, > correct source coding, etc and that the fault > is probably with google's procedures. None of the above matters to Google; that's essentially what makes Google different (and usually more valuable for the seeker of information). Here is what matters; also note what B2 says: http://www.google.com/webmasters/1.html http://www.google.com/webmasters/1.html#B2 <=== http://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html http://www.google.com/webmasters/4.html http://www.google.com/webmasters/dos.html <=== Other venues for feedback to Google: http://www.google.com/contact/index.html http://www.google.com/quality_form And, of course, you have also pursued the following already, where you posted the same complaint, but no one supplied the direct links above, which you could have found for yourself. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=google.public.support.general Good luck. . ==== Not through this newsgroup :) An interesting thing about our written communications, however, is that we can even see and feel the expression of frustration and the shouting response that is conveyed by the all-caps subject, as well as its phrasing, and I'd like to address that. During the development of the Google Groups system, through which you have posted, I sent several suggestions and surprisingly, I usually got a personal response; all the particular things that I suggested have also eventually been implemented in Google's current system, although this may be the result of the very same suggestions having been made by very many people, or to have been obvious to Google's developers anyway (or sometimes not, who knows?) There was also once a time when Google cut off our access to all search queries, returning instead a terms of service notice; at first, I thought that perhaps Google was turning into a paid-only service rather quickly, reply explaining what had led them to think that our IP address was hosting a robot, forwarding another search engine's automated queries through Google, and also explaining how to test what IP address Google thinks we are at. I replied to them that our IP address was actually the ISP's cache server address, the same for the entire geographical area which that ISP covers, that we were not likely responsible for the kind of queries they had monitored, and that by blocking this one IP address, they were also hiding themselves from a large population all over southeast Iowa; I also gave them a contact at the ISP, and very shortly thereafter, Google removed the blocks. I do not know what contact address(es) Google now maintains, nor who, if anyone, now reads what is probably a vastly larger like anyone, they might respond more to cordiality than to cursing. The only comparable site where I had ever before found so much staff who always personally replied -- perhaps that's why they folded :) [and were bought by Google, which is the good fortune that has preserved the ability to now access 20 years of postings archives, I can sympathize with what happens when a company does and find that the general public is often just the sort of unappreciative bleep-heads that you accuse Google of being, in which case it is not surprising that they might want to better insulate themselves from having to directly talk to anyone, for reasons more than merely economic. The general quality of life arises from all the interactions between all the individual people, and the quality of all those interactions arises in turn from the consciousness of that same society of individual people, which together forms a collective consciousness of the society. That collective consciousness can be influenced, at a very deep level, by human beings who deeply experience the total field of consciousness within themselves, but every individual person in society can also do his or her part in being the sort of person you would yourself like other people to be to you, as much as you can. Project more appreciation and good to others; it is never wasted. Even if you never get a reply, your own calmness and positive attitude will still directly benefit you, yourself, because the quality of our own self-interaction is a major part of our own well-being. ---------------------------------------- With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu . ==== I have rarely read such complacent blather and indolent psychobabble in a supposedly serious newsgroup. You are obviously a dunce who judging from your prose style has read too many corporate handouts, PR mantras & celebrity biographies. You are therefore scared of a) shouting and b) thinking. Maybe your lickass brown nosing strategy will get you brownie (nose) points from the corporate hippies at google who may even give you a new job as ball boy #40043 on their virtual tennis court. More likely you will fret and puff your life away in some dingy academic office festooned with timetables and blotchy snapshots of students. Meanwhile, consider the style of google automated responses: keep on googlin' Indeed - I mean, why don't we also all just OD on Disney Warner Google acid and just die slowly & surely in the Disney Google Warner desert sands with our pricks up a stiffie Warner Disney Google Deadhead's ass while mouthing dimly remembered words to a Pink Floyd track... Meanwhile, these businessmen have not replied to a simple and legitimate question. And who - except you, cares about how many questions such pretentious millionaires get? And who cares about high stepping along the tripwire of decorum you have strung to protect your fragile ego from people like me? > That collective consciousness can be influenced, > at a very deep level, There are no levels at all, please try to understand this. Your brain has been addled by psychoanalytic-Romantic fantasies about levels only surfaces, only your words. Nothing else. Scary, huh? >by human beings who deeply experience Now you are sounding like a Christmas card... > the total field of consciousness within themselves, Totality went out with Hegel, grow up! > but every individual person in society Cliches, or what? >can also do > his or her part in being the sort of person you would yourself > like other people to be to you, as much as you can. Amen, spit and polish, lick the floors clean, & let's just DANCE the night away, yeah yeah yeah... Project more appreciation and good to others; >it is never wasted. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? > Even if you never get a reply, your own calmness and positive attitude > will still directly benefit you, yourself, because the quality of > our own self-interaction is a major part of our own well-being. > You are definitely insane. > An interesting thing about our written communications, however, > is that we can even see and feel the expression of frustration > and the shouting response that is conveyed by the all-caps subject, > as well as its phrasing, and I'd like to address that. > Meanwhile, we will NOT address the bizarre contortions, cute prose rythms, and the abjectness that goes into being you... ==== Fred [sounded off like a braying animal, which is probably why he commands so much respect in professional circles] The Coming of Wisdom with Time Though leaves are many, the root is one; Through all the lying days of my youth I swayed my leaves and flowers in the sun; Now I may wither into the truth. http://www.lit.kobe-u.ac.jp/~hishika/yeats.htm http://www.bartleby.com/people/Yeats-Wi.html http://www.nobel.se/literature/laureates/1923/ Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexations to the spirit. http://colleenscorner.com/Poetry3.html I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me. Just as small mistakes in programming may incapacitate the operation of a computer or calculator, small mistranslations or misunderstandings can bury the knowledge which could otherwise be inherited by us from the long trail of human wisdom, e.g.: Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth The general error is to reverse cause and effect in the above. You do not achieve what you desire by suppressing yourself, but when you are really on the right track with what you are doing, it communicates itself effectively to others, and you can organize the means to accomplish things without floundering in your own chaos, or trying to compensate with bluster. The greater the quality of leadership, the less screaming or violence of any kind is required to have the same influence, and that is how a quiet man like Gandhi, with weapons only of his own spirit, finally sent an armed and vicious colonial power packing; he did not appear to be winning at every step of his path, but what he did resonated with and unified an entire nation, and even an entire world was influenced. A bullet from a lone assassin's gun can silence the one leader, but can not halt the progress of all humanity, which it was his gift to recognize and be an agent for. Muhammad, Moses, Buddha, Christ -- there is no fundamental difference in what they all recognized, experienced, and taught, although subsequent interpreters can lose all sense of it, if they do not have the same quality of their own consciousness and consequent experience to keep them on the right track. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [John 1:1] Beauty, old yet ever new, eternal voice and inward word During this period of his life Muhammad traveled widely. Then, in his forties he began to retire to meditate Muhammad recited the words of what are now the first five verses of the 96th surah or chapter of the Quran, words which proclaim God the Creator of man and the Source of all knowledge. They all do the same -- they meditate, they experience the totality of all consciousness within themselves, then they come out to teach it. If their disciples follow the same steps, including the critical step of also experiencing the source of pure consciousness within themselves, then they continue to embody the same original knowledge and pass it down; if they neglect to have the personal experience, however, then they drift off into distortion, and their descendants turn ever more violent, trying to compensate for the living effectiveness which they lost. That's a brief history of humanity, in a couple of paragraphs. If you want to put down mankind's spiritual history, however, at least do it with some humor and style: http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/meek.html A teacher affects eternity; he can never tell where his influence stops. http://www.mum.edu ==== Go placidly amid the noise and haste, > and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, > be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, > even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexations to the spirit. apropos): Go placidly amid the noise and waste. and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof. Avoid quiet and passive persons unless you are in need of sleep. [..] Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment, and despite the changing fortunes of time, there is always a big future in computer maintenance. ==== [shit removed] I would surely prefer to read John H. Meyer posts rather than yours. Have you ever published anything of interest in this newsgroup? Not that I can remember. John has been posting here for as far as I can remember and is a valued member of this community. So keep your flaming away. ==== > Not through this newsgroup :) > An interesting thing about our written communications, however, > is that we can even see and feel the expression of frustration > and the shouting response that is conveyed by the all-caps subject, > as well as its phrasing, and I'd like to address that. Well (though it is terribly offtopic). How many requests do you expect that google get a day to `please list our website'. I'd vote for thousands. How many do you think are legitimate? Are *any* legitimate? In particular, for the person who is complaining here (why here?), if the web site isn't in whatever google's root set is (and they aren't very likely to put it in the root set for you, and if no-one links to it, then as I understand google's algorithm it's not going to show up. And that's *right*: google works by links to a site, so if you want to get them to list it, you need to get people to link to it, not complain at google, who are just doing their job as a search engine. --tim ==== >... [Fred shows his anger about a website not found by google] ... The website is hosted on a HP48? Holger ==== > The website is hosted on a HP48? No no. *Google* runs on a large farm of HP48s. They've been trying to port to HP49s (in fact, Google largely funded the HP49 effort at HP), but the extreme load causes the keycaps to flake off and the screens to go a funny colour. Only HP48s will do for this environment. I regret to say that they are now considering a port to some TI abomination, although I've been hearing recent rumours that they are also considering the 32SII. --tim ==== > No no. *Google* runs on a large farm of HP48s. They've been trying > to port to HP49s (in fact, Google largely funded the HP49 effort at > HP), but the extreme load causes the keycaps to flake off and the > screens to go a funny colour. Only HP48s will do for this > environment. Unfortunately, the HP 48 keys aren't really designed to be pecked by pigeons. Hoewver, they do withstand pecking much better than the HP 49G keys. ==== Tim Bradshaw schrieb im Newsbeitrag > ... although I've been hearing recent rumours that > they are also considering the 32SII. That explains why the 32SII is no longer sold. Whith only 384 bytes of memory Google will need HPs complete production of them. Supposingly it is a special model with network capabilities. I hope they'll show up on ebay some day! Wouldn't it be a good idea to make another farm with 12Cs for business websites? Holger ==== I'm having trouble transferring files to my HP49G. IO settings are as follows: WIRE (Obviously) Kermit ASCII No translation Checksum Type 1 9600 Baud No Parity No overwrite HPComm settings are as follows: Translation: Mode 0 Checksum: Type 1 Speed: 9600 The calc connects to HPComm OK but I am unable to transfer a file such as ALBW1.1 the Allocated Bandwidth program by Mike Richards. HPComm keeps giving me a The file you tried to send does not contain valid data or a valid program error. I just can't seem to get this transfer to work. Any help would be greatly appreciated as this is driving me nuts. I have had it working correctly previously. ==== I'm having trouble transferring files to my HP49G. IO settings are as > follows: WIRE (Obviously) > Kermit > ASCII > No translation > Checksum Type 1 > 9600 Baud > No Parity > No overwrite HPComm settings are as follows: Translation: Mode 0 > Checksum: Type 1 > Speed: 9600 The calc connects to HPComm OK but I am unable to transfer a file such as > ALBW1.1 the Allocated Bandwidth program by Mike Richards. HPComm keeps > giving me a The file you tried to send does not contain valid data or a > valid program error. I just can't seem to get this transfer to work. Any help would be greatly appreciated as this is driving me nuts. I have had > it working correctly previously. Well, it's a directory, and it has a variable named 'EXIT'. My 49G doesn't like it because I already have a library command named 'EXIT' (in OT49). I modified it to use the name 'QUIT' for that variable, and also to use reals instead of ZINTs. See if you can download the following. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Checksum: # F8F3h @ Bytes: 1126.5 DIR DATA 2.048 FEC .666666666667 RS .911111111111 BTS 3. RPRT << Data: DATA 4. RND ->STR + mb FEC: + FEC 4. RND + RS: + RS 4. RND + Tran: + DATA RS FEC * / DUP BTS / -> t s << t 6. RND ->STR + mb BTS: + BTS + IF 'BTS==1.' THEN (BPSK) + ELSE IF 'BTS==2.' THEN (QPSK) + ELSE IF 'BTS==3. ' THEN (8PSK) + ELSE IF 'BTS== 4.' THEN (16QAM) + END END END END Symb: + s 6. RND ->STR + mb OcBW: + s 1.2 * 6. RND ->STR + MHz AlBW: + s 1.4 * .02 + 6. RND ->STR + MHz + '182' STO 182 CLLCD 1. DISP 3. FREEZE >> >> PRINT << 182 PR1 CLEAR >> PRDEV << -34. FS? IF 1. == THEN { { []WIRE << -34. SF 0. DELAY 0. MENU >> } { IR << -34. CF 1.8 DELAY 0. MENU >> } } TMENU ELSE { { WIRE << -34. SF 0. DELAY 0. MENU >> } { []IR << -34. CF 1.8 DELAY 0. MENU >> } } TMENU END >> QUIT << UPDIR 2. MENU >> 182 Data: 2.048 mb FEC: .6667 RS: .9111 Tran: 3.371707 mb BTS: 3 (8PSK) Symb: 1.123902 mb OcBW: 1.348683 MHz AlBW: 1.593463 MHz END ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- James ==== Binary? X > HPComm keeps > giving me a The file you tried to send does not contain valid data or a > valid program error. ==== ... doesn't seem to make any difference ... ==== When I lend my calc to friends, I wnt it to be algebric and was not happy with what I found on hpcalc so I developped my own. Please send me comments. It is available at: http://www.chez.com/amiel/hp48/algcalc.zip And only works on HP48G and HP48GX. It is obviously useless on the 49 and use unsupported entry points that have changed from the S serie. Arnaud ==== Great idea! - I have exactly the same problem when I lend my calc. Needs to be developed Andrew > When I lend my calc to friends, I wnt it to be algebric and was not > happy with what I found on hpcalc so I developped my own. > Please send me comments. > It is available at: > http://www.chez.com/amiel/hp48/algcalc.zip And only works on HP48G and HP48GX. It is obviously useless on the 49 > and use unsupported entry points that have changed from the S serie. > Arnaud ==== Andrew Hall escribi.97 en el mensaje > Great idea! - I have exactly the same problem when I lend my calc. Needs to be developed Andrew Much better: don't lend the calculator :-D ==== Back in high school when someone wanted to borrow my HP I'd give it to them, watch them hit a few keys, and ask me, where's the equals key? They never asked again. Andrew Hall escribi.97 en el mensaje > Great idea! - I have exactly the same problem when I lend my calc. Needs to be developed Andrew Much better: don't lend the calculator :-D > ==== This ng is filled with very useful and interesting posts whch I read contribute. I hope my thoughts here are not too OT. I have been thinking about the direction HP has taken away from RPN for their new calculator products. There are obviously a lot of folks who use the advanced graphical and symbolic capabilities of the HP48/49 calcs, and the wish lists often focus on enhancing these features with color displays, faster plotting, and the like. For me however, plotting and advanced data analysis are more comfortable on a PC using Origin, Axum, Matlab, or similar programs. So, some prefer the convenience of the handheld calc for advanced features, but others (like me) are more pedestrian in their use. The products whose disappearance really pains me is the RPN-based, scientific, shirt-pocket calculator. The HP42S, 15C, etc. command hefty prices on the used market. I know that some of this is driven by collectors, but I often see WTB posts from users whose 42S just died and they just want a replacement in working order. Even the collector interest in these calcs points to their great utility - I doubt that the algebraic HP20S, if discontinued today, would command $200 on the used market anytime soon. So, this leads to question. Is there a reasonable chance that ANYONE will introduce a new pocket scientific calculator which uses RPN? I know the potential market is smaller, but with TI, Casio, Sharp, and others competing for shelf space at Walmart with their $8.99 - $12.99 offerings, could someone find a place in their product line for a RPN-based scientific with similar capabilities, but at a higher price? $50-$75 would not be a deterrent for me, and some keystroke programming capability would be worth more. Are there others like me out there, or not? I would guess that few students would buy RPN on a whim, since the algebraic system is all they have been exposed to. Do you think it would catch on? Perhaps RPN and the OLD HP calculator philosophy were somehow tied together. HP calcs were never promoted to be the cheap calc for everyday balancing-your-checkbook use. The quality was higher, and the intended market was more demanding. The professionals and students for whom the older HP calcs were designed were willing to pay a little more, and invest a little more time in learning how to use it. Maybe the guys who buy cheap calcs at Walmart would never be interested in RPN. Sorry for all the rambling here. I hope I'll hear something encouraging about the future, but I don't know. I'm not too old at 44 yet, but I have noticed the funny looks I get from new grads if I talk nostalgically about my old HP29C! Don Davis ==== > I would guess that few students would buy RPN on a whim, since the > algebraic system is all they have been exposed to. Do you think it > would catch on? I'm a mechanical engineering student in Queensland, Australia. While hp calcs are not the most popular (due to the ti83(+)), they are definitely not the least popular. eg. I see many more hp49's than ti89's. In my course (2nd year mech) there are at least 10 (out of 60 or so) people that use an hp calc of the RPN variety. If trends are similar in other places, there is a market in RPN for students. Many friends of mine are envious of my 49's capabilities. ~17% * RPN market at UQ - sounds like a big enough share to me. However, I'm pretty sure that hp have done their sums. Pity. Andrew * ~17% from my (feeble) observations only. ==== > Is there a reasonable chance that ANYONE will introduce a new pocket > scientific calculator which uses RPN? I know the potential market is > smaller, but with TI, Casio, Sharp, and others competing for shelf > space at Walmart with their $8.99 - $12.99 offerings, could someone > find a place in their product line for a RPN-based scientific with > similar capabilities, but at a higher price? $50-$75 would not be a > deterrent for me, and some keystroke programming capability would be > worth more. Are there others like me out there, or not? I think the market for calculators in that price range has been eaten. It used to be the case that you could buy a good scientific calculator for say, fifty to a few hundred dollars, or you could spend maybe 2,000 on a PC, and then have to buy or write software for it, and it wasn't portable. So there was a whacking great hole in the market where engineers and other professional-type people would buy a good calculator. But now, well, a well-engineered calculator *still* costs $50-200, especially if the market is small. And the market is small because for $300 or something you can buy a PDA which will do most of what the calculator would do, *and* be a diary &c &c (and soon, if not now, be a phone too). And for not that much more you can buy a genuinely portable laptop onto which you can stuff mathematica and so on. So I think the market for decent calculators has changed from professionals who couldn't afford a computer - either because it was too heavy or too expensive - to people who aren't *allowed* to have a computer, namely students in exams. Those people have different requirements (and less money). Whether the market could sustain a low-end RPN calculator I don't know. I suspect not, though. --tim ==== Don Davis escribi.97 en el mensaje Sorry for all the rambling here. I hope I'll hear something > encouraging about the future, but I don't know. I'm not too old at 44 > yet, but I have noticed the funny looks I get from new grads if I talk > nostalgically about my old HP29C! Don Davis I'm 34 and the first sci calculator I had in my hands was a 34c that nobody knows how works... (1981) My 48 is a great help in my work but for many tasks I diary use a recently exchanged 15c. They are simply priceless. And the future is black. Dark black. ==== There's not much I wouldn't do for a simple, good-quality, RPN calculator, even just a 4-banger. I'd probably buy several (car, workshop, study, kitchen...) Neill McKay ==== the hp32sii works for me! http://www.henryhall.com/catalog.htm search for hew32sii, a really nice calculator :) $66 anybody knows a cheaper place to buy? > There's not much I wouldn't do for a simple, good-quality, RPN > calculator, even just a 4-banger. I'd probably buy several (car, > workshop, study, kitchen...) Neill McKay ==== > the hp32sii works for me! http://www.henryhall.com/catalog.htm search for hew32sii, a really nice calculator :) $66 I have a 32sii, which is probably my favourite of 3 HPs. Unfortunately, $66 is above the cheap enough to buy 3 or 4 threshold. What I'd like to see is a decent, simple, RPN calculator (not necessarily build to HP standards) in the $10-$15 range. Neill McKay ==== | the hp32sii works for me! | http://www.henryhall.com/catalog.htm | search for hew32sii, a really nice calculator :) | $66 The 48SX works for me. I bought my last one (#3) for $50. ==== Lately when I work with my HP49 I get to many variables like ppar y1 y2 and stuff like that, so i tried to design a program in sysrpl to erase all the variables but the program it self, but I can't make it work, it always erases all the variables. :: Dovars (here the comand that explodes the list and puts the number of objects, I don't remeber it now: FPTR 6 158) Bint0 Do Dup ' Id CLN (this is the name of the variable where the program is stored) EQ ITE :: drop ; :: purge ; Loop I think that the problem is the way I compare the variables' name. Any body has some ideas? Marturo UBI DUBIDUM IBI LIBERTAS ==== I think that the problem is the way I compare the variables' name. Exactly. EQ compares just the memory address of the two objects. I.e. #5555 DUP EQ ( returns TRUE ) #5555 #5555 EQ ( FALSE ) #5555 #5555 EQUAL ( TRUE ) Note that you cannot do this with built-in BINTs like BINT0. Greetings Thomas -- Thomas Rast If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S. Truman ==== > when I work with my HP49 I get too many variables like ppar y1 y2 > and stuff like that, so I tried to design a program in sysrpl > to erase all the variables but the program itself. Here's a very dangerous user program which can reside in a directory, which will clear every variable but itself (so don't store it in HOME, for heaven's sake ;) << 15 TVARS '~' + PGDIR 'ZAP' DUP RCL CLVAR SWAP STO >> 'ZAP' STO Like the nitroglycerin which my high school buddies easily made in chemistry lab, however, or the nuclear cores, chemical wastes, climate and genetic changes, etc. which governments and industries have manufactured and now are stuck with, now the new problem is how to get rid of it, to prevent the unfortunate destructive consequences of not doing so. But perhaps we could sidestep this problem by not creating it for ourselves in the first place, except only as a [misguided] training exercise. Note that these calculators permit the creation of subdirectories; when we work in a subdirectory, all variables in its parent directory(ies) remain accessible by name, as with a path in Unix or MS-DOS, or a searchlist in other systems. So, create an empty directory, e.g. 'MYDIR' CRDIR Then go into that empty directory (just press the MYDIR menu key). Then solve equations and create many variables; when you want to delete them all, just type CLVAR. CLVAR deletes all variables in the current directory, but it leaves all parent directories alone. This accomplishes the goal that you wanted; there are many extra tools that we could also make and use when we don't bother making ourselves a subdirectory, such as clean solvers and the like, which you have to keep remembering to always use to make them effective, but to me, the ultimate tool is just to take advantage of the built-in capabilities, when there's no need to do more. It is often equally not realized that every living entity (and society) has native capabilities that can accomplish its goals, without creating its own obstacles and then losing itself in the task of making greater efforts to solve the self-created problems. There is nothing more practical in the world than finding the best native way to accomplish the ultimate goals that people really want, and that's just what we do at our university. I simply say to you that we have the metaphysical mind apprehending, comprehending, and ordering the physical. The physical tending to be disorderly and the metaphysical apprehending, comprehending, and putting together. Man, therefore, represents the very clearly demonstrated function in the universe that is essential to the regeneration of the universe. R. Buckminster Fuller, Approaching the Benign Environment, 1970. Q171.F96 on your library shelf, if you have a well-stocked library. A different perspective on all of history; past, present, and future. Here also are the first paragraphs of Fuller's Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth http://www.bfi.org/operating_manual.htm I am enthusiastic over humanity's extraordinary and sometimes very timely ingenuities. If you are in a shipwreck and all the boats are gone, a piano top buoyant enough to keep you afloat that comes along makes a fortuitous life preserver. But this is not to say that the best way to design a life preserver is in the form of a piano top. I think that we are clinging to a great many piano tops in accepting yesterday's fortuitous contrivings as constituting the only means for solving a given problem. Our brains deal exclusively with special-case experiences. Only our minds are able to discover the generalized principles operating without exception in each and every special-experience case which if detected and mastered will give knowledgeable advantage in all instances. Because our spontaneous initiative has been frustrated, too often inadvertently, in earliest childhood, we do not tend, customarily, to dare to think competently regarding our potentials. We find it socially easier to go on with our narrow, shortsighted specializations and leave it to others -- primarily to the politicians -- to find some way of resolving our common dilemmas. Note that in the second paragraph, Fuller has already distinguished mind (metaphysical, which we call consciousness) from brain (physical), after which I can only think to repeat the first Fuller quote: I simply say to you that we have the metaphysical mind apprehending, comprehending, and ordering the physical. The physical tending to be disorderly and the metaphysical apprehending, comprehending, and putting together. Man, therefore, represents the very clearly demonstrated function in the universe that is essential to the regeneration of the universe. This is exactly what we experience, what we apply to education, and what we apply to the entire world around us. G'day! http://www.mum.edu . ==== Can someone help me finding a hp48 emulator for psion/epoc? Zender ==== I have two programs listed below which I need to join however it is not obvious to me. My problem is I am communicating with a SDL30 digital level and the only way to prompt the instrument to start reading is to initiate the first program and then press the cancel button on the calculator which then starts the machine to read. The second program can be initiated to receive the information. Is there another way to prompt the same result not using the RECV command hence deleting unnecessary keystrokes and messy programming. .82 CLEAR LM XMIT RECV é .82 BUFLEN DROP SRECV CLOSEIO DROP OBJ-> é Martin ==== I have two programs listed below which I need to join > however it is not obvious to me. My problem is I am > communicating with a SDL30 digital level and the only > way to prompt the instrument to start reading is to > initiate the first program and then press the cancel button > on the calculator which then starts the machine to read. > The second program can be initiated to receive the information. > Is there another way to prompt the same result not using the > RECV command hence deleting unnecessary keystrokes > and messy programming. .82 CLEAR LM XMIT > RECV > é .82 > BUFLEN DROP > SRECV CLOSEIO DROP > OBJ- é > Martin If I got you right, then you want the HP to tell the SDL30 to start reading. So you send the command LM and then the SDL30 starts reading and sends data to the HP. If that is what you want then you could use: << -> data << OPENIO LM XMIT DROP WHILE BUFLEN DROP REPEAT 'data' SRECV DROP STO+ END data OBJ-> CLOSEIO >> Was it what you wanted? . ==== I have two programs listed below which I need to join > however it is not obvious to me. My problem is I am > communicating with a SDL30 digital level and the only > way to prompt the instrument to start reading is to > initiate the first program and then press the cancel button > on the calculator which then starts the machine to read. > The second program can be initiated to receive the information. > Is there another way to prompt the same result not using the > RECV command hence deleting unnecessary keystrokes > and messy programming. .82 CLEAR LM XMIT > RECV > é .82 > BUFLEN DROP > SRECV CLOSEIO DROP > OBJ- é > Martin > If I got you right, then you want the HP to tell the SDL30 to start > reading. So you send the command LM and then the SDL30 starts reading > and sends data to the HP. If that is what you want then you could use: << > -> data > << OPENIO > LM XMIT DROP > WHILE > BUFLEN DROP > REPEAT > 'data' > SRECV DROP > STO+ > END > data OBJ- CLOSEIO > > > Was it what you wanted? > . , The program you have written is basically what I had in mind however my problem is not that. I am told to get the instrument to read I need to send LM (ie LM XMIT). However to get it to read I need to send LM XMIT RECV or LM XMIT 'n' KGET putting the calculator in server mode. So can the server mode be cancelled from within a program or am I missing the obvious with IOPAR at { 1200 0 0 1 2 } or is there another way to send the command. Martin ==== --------snipped rest-------- > , The program you have written is basically what I had > in mind however my problem is not that. I am told to get the instrument to read I need to send LM > (ie LM XMIT). However to get it to read I need to send > LM XMIT RECV or LM XMIT 'n' KGET putting the calculator > in server mode. But Martin, to *send* LM or any other string you only need XMIT. Why do you use RECV or KGET after that? XMIT just sends the string LM to the other device, instructing it so to do something. The rest of the stuf, RECV or KGET is to just receive what the other device sends to you. I must be missing something here... > So can the server mode be cancelled from within a program > or am I missing the obvious with IOPAR at { 1200 0 0 1 2 } > or is there another way to send the command. No, the IOPAR is for transfer setting but nothing more. Greetings, . ==== .82 CLEAR LM XMIT > RECV > é .82 > BUFLEN DROP > SRECV CLOSEIO DROP > OBJ- é Considering your no error checking approach, << LM XMIT DROP >> should do fine for the first program... HTH Thomas -- Thomas Rast If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S. Truman ==== I have bought a PC connectivity kit for my HP48GX calculator. I can download just fine and can edit with HP-IDE. The problem is that the calculator won't accept the edited files back. Is this a common problem, or is it just me? Rod ==== I just acquired a 48GX. How can I connect it to my B&W G3 in order to download software into the 48GX? ==== > I just acquired a 48GX. How can I connect it to my B&W G3 in order to > download software into the 48GX? You need first a cable for connecting the HP48GX to the Mac. I think that such cables are still sold by HP, but I'm not sure. They connect the serial port of the HP48GX with the pronter or modem port of the Mac. (The G3 has serial printer and modem port, doesn't it?) Then you need some program like kermit, or version 4 of ClarisWorks along with a kermitor Xmodem module for the communications Toolbox. Do you have such software? If not, I could give you a very old (but very functional) version of kermit or CW. I suppose you know how to set up I/O on the HP49G, so I go directly to the setup of the Mac. With ClarisWorks you start the program, and create a new communications document. Then select menu connection and choose serial connection with the same parameters like the HP49G. Choose also the right port (modem or pronter). Then you select menu file transfer and choose the protocoll for the transfer. (Xmodem or kermit) Select binary for tranfer mode (not Macbinary!). Then select connect menu and the Program connects to the serial port that you selected previously. Now from the menu transfer you can selct receive or send file and so on. Greetings and do not hesitate to contact me if you still have problems. . ==== > I just acquired a 48GX. How can I connect it to my B&W G3 in order to > download software into the 48GX? > You need first a cable for connecting the HP48GX to the Mac. I think > that such cables are still sold by HP, but I'm not sure. They connect > the serial port of the HP48GX with the pronter or modem port of the > Mac. (The G3 has serial printer and modem port, doesn't it?) > No. ==== I just acquired a 48GX. How can I connect it to my B&W G3 in order to > download software into the 48GX? > You need first a cable for connecting the HP48GX to the Mac. I think > that such cables are still sold by HP, but I'm not sure. They connect > the serial port of the HP48GX with the pronter or modem port of the > Mac. (The G3 has serial printer and modem port, doesn't it?) > No. Instead they have USB and (sometimes) Firewire ports. Mac operating > systems up to OS 9 support serial ports, for backwards compatibility > support serial ports even if they are present in the machine OS X is > running on. > Oh man, I got left behind! ;-) You must buy then a USB to serial converter. I have one for using my printers (serial and appletalk) from my iMac. Or is there kermit over USB connection? Anyone has seen something like this out there? Greetings, . ==== I've never used the equation library on the 48, so I'm not sure how eql49 should work. When I start it, the menus come up fine (although the version at the top is 2.6 even though the lib filename is 2.7). When I pick a formula and select SLV, I see the soft menus at the bottom for the vars, and the rpn stack at the top (I'm nit sure this is how it should look). If I type a number and select a soft key, the key does not fill in like I would expect. If I then left shift the var I want to solve it seems to work ok. If I then select nxeq I can move between the formulas in the group, but I can't seem to find a way to move back up a level to select a new group of formulas. Is this a limitation, or is something wrong with my installation? I'm using the Steve ==== Behaves the same for me. I think once you're into the solver you have exited eql49 so you have to start it again to select another equation from the library. Not sure if it would be possible to fix. Perhaps you could code a custom solver called when you exited eql49 that added a menu key to restart eql49. I often use additional menu keys for varius functions in my stored equations. eg (if I get this right) .82 { 'Y=k1*X+k2' { X Y { Set1 .82 0.7000 'k1' STO 0.3000 'k2' STO é } { eql49 .82 eql49 EVAL é } } } STEQ 30.0000 MENU é Another thing I'd like to see with eql49 is for the ENTER key to act as OK while in eql49. Sounds like a simple change. Next change would be to combine the stored library, USEREQ and directory library modes so that the root list is a choice of these modes. Stephen N > I've never used the equation library on the 48, so I'm not sure how > eql49 should work. When I start it, the menus come up fine (although > the version at the top is 2.6 even though the lib filename is 2.7). > When I pick a formula and select SLV, I see the soft menus at the > bottom for the vars, and the rpn stack at the top (I'm nit sure this > is how it should look). If I type a number and select a soft key, the > key does not fill in like I would expect. If I then left shift the var > I want to solve it seems to work ok. If I then select nxeq I can move > between the formulas in the group, but I can't seem to find a way to > move back up a level to select a new group of formulas. Is this a > limitation, or is something wrong with my installation? I'm using the Steve ==== I have looked high and low for a decent example of the operation of the 3d systems (specifically fast3d) in the 49G. None of the HP offered examples work, not one. The hp49g pdf examples fail. I am frustrated, but not beyond believeing that I have screwed up. I have done it before and likely won't stop until I am dead :) I am using the 19-6 rom upgrade (so far so good...) Additionally, could someone briefly explain to me what Masd does? Lastly, I know some briliant people read this list, and have built these calcs. I would just like to say Nice job. Matt ==== Well, I might have enought knowledge about these 2 program to be able to help you... Fast3D: Purge the EQ, PPAR and VPAR variable (ie: remove all existing stuff so we start from a clean table) in the 2D/3D menu (shift F4), choose FAST3D mode and enter the following equation: 'SIN(X)*SIN(Y)', then press draw. To make things bettern in the WIN menu (shift F2) enter -3 3 -3 3 for X and Y and press draw. you can then use the arrow, + and - and I and L to 'move' the graph. MASD: MASD is a system-RPL and assembly compiler. ie: it allows you to program the calculator in these languages. This is much more complex than RPL and much more dangerous (ie: memory lost), however, it allows you to make much faster programs.... For more information, you should dig in the www.hpcal.org website and look for some documentation on programming in these languages... I have looked high and low for a decent example of the operation of the > 3d systems (specifically fast3d) in the 49G. None of the HP offered examples work, not one. The hp49g pdf examples > fail. I am frustrated, but not beyond believeing that I have screwed up. > I have done it before and likely won't stop until I am dead :) I am using the 19-6 rom upgrade (so far so good...) Additionally, could someone briefly explain to me what Masd does? Lastly, I know some briliant people read this list, and have built these > calcs. I would just like to say Nice job. Matt > ==== Yea, I guess you might have enough information, huh? :) Cyrille, I am honored that you would take the time to engage a lowly cal. II student about his poorly run calulator, but I really appreciate it. Your example worked like a charm. After that worked, I went back to the original and (after wiping out the PPAR var and others) used the following: z=x^2*y-xy^3 This is the example in the manual(page 4-27 of the pdf). It shows up as a blank screen after a few moments (10-20 sec) of calculating. This is to say that the screen shows a very nice and normal display, offering no data other than the compass in the lower left and the exit button in the lower right. Is this a bug, or am I doing something else incorrectly? Matt Well, I might have enought knowledge about these 2 program to be able to > help you... Fast3D: > Purge the EQ, PPAR and VPAR variable (ie: remove all existing stuff so we > start from a clean table) > in the 2D/3D menu (shift F4), choose FAST3D mode and enter the following > equation: 'SIN(X)*SIN(Y)', then press draw. > To make things bettern in the WIN menu (shift F2) enter -3 3 -3 3 for X and > Y and press draw. > you can then use the arrow, + and - and I and L to 'move' the graph. MASD: > MASD is a system-RPL and assembly compiler. ie: it allows you to program the > calculator in these languages. This is much more complex than RPL and much > more dangerous (ie: memory lost), however, it allows you to make much faster > programs.... > For more information, you should dig in the www.hpcal.org website and look > for some documentation on programming in these languages... > >>I have looked high and low for a decent example of the operation of the >>3d systems (specifically fast3d) in the 49G. >>None of the HP offered examples work, not one. The hp49g pdf examples >>fail. I am frustrated, but not beyond believeing that I have screwed up. >>I have done it before and likely won't stop until I am dead :) >>I am using the 19-6 rom upgrade (so far so good...) >>Additionally, could someone briefly explain to me what Masd does? >>Lastly, I know some briliant people read this list, and have built these >>calcs. I would just like to say Nice job. >>Matt >> ==== just a guess: are you entering xy as x * y? Otherwise the calc would think you refer to a variable called xy. When this variable isn't defined there will be no valid values in your plot, hence the empty screen. Thomas > Yea, I guess you might have enough information, huh? :) > Cyrille, I am honored that you would take the time to engage a lowly > cal. II student about his poorly run calulator, but I really appreciate it. Your example worked like a charm. After that worked, I went back to the > original and (after wiping out the PPAR var and others) used the following: z=x^2*y-xy^3 This is the example in the manual(page 4-27 of the pdf). > It shows up as a blank screen after a few moments (10-20 sec) of > calculating. This is to say that the screen shows a very nice and normal > display, offering no data other than the compass in the lower left and > the exit button in the lower right. Is this a bug, or am I doing something else incorrectly? Matt > ==== Matt just a guess: are you entering xy as x * y? > Otherwise the calc would think you refer to > a variable called xy. When this variable > isn't defined there will be no valid values > in your plot, hence the empty screen. Thomas Yea, I guess you might have enough information, huh? :) > Cyrille, I am honored that you would take the time to engage a lowly > cal. II student about his poorly run calulator, but I really appreciate it. Your example worked like a charm. After that worked, I went back to the > original and (after wiping out the PPAR var and others) used the following: z=x^2*y-xy^3 This is the example in the manual(page 4-27 of the pdf). > It shows up as a blank screen after a few moments (10-20 sec) of > calculating. This is to say that the screen shows a very nice and normal > display, offering no data other than the compass in the lower left and > the exit button in the lower right. Is this a bug, or am I doing something else incorrectly? Matt > ==== I have looked high and low for a decent example of the operation of the > 3d systems (specifically fast3d) in the 49G. None of the HP offered examples work, not one. The hp49g pdf examples > fail. I am frustrated, but not beyond believeing that I have screwed up. > I have done it before and likely won't stop until I am dead :) Red alert! Another suicidal tendency because of usage of the Hp49G ;-) To graph a fast3d plot. PURGE first the variables EQ, PPAR and VPAR. They could contain some parameters that prevent the plot to show. Press simoultaneously [blue-shift] and [F4]. Enter your equation and choose plot type FAST3D. Enter the two independend variables in the input fields Indep: and Depnd: Now Press simoultaneously [blue-shift] and [F2]. Enter the appropriate number of steps for Indep: and Depnd: (How dense the grid will be). Press [F5] and then [F4]. If it didn't help could you please describe a bit more detailed what happens and how the HP49G reacts when you want to plot? Greetings, . ==== For sale, two (2) HP 49G calcs located in the UK, both in excellent condition and one has hardly been used. Manual(s) included. Make me a (sensible) offer... ==== What is HP-42X? It is an HP-42S Extended MicroCode Emulator for HP-48GX/SX and HP-49G. It fully emulates the HP-42S calculator because it is based on the real HP-42 ROM. Beside the emulation, I added some advanced features (like 96K of RAM and 31K of port memory) to the original specifications. Details on how to get it as well as some screen shots are on my homepage http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com... There are few variations of HP-42X according to the various calculator configurations and different user needs. These are: HP42X48: The FINAL version for HP-48GX with a 128K RAM card in Slot1 and >=128K RAM card in Slot2. Uses one RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and another for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. HP42X48D: The DEMO version for HP-48GX with only one >=128K RAM card in either Slot1 or Slot2. Uses RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and main calculator RAM for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. Destroys some parts of main calculator RAM! HP42X48L: The FINAL version for HP-48GX with only one >=128K RAM card in either Slot1 or Slot2. Uses RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and Port0 for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. HP42X48S: The FINAL version for HP-48SX with a 128K RAM card in Port1 and another 128K RAM card in Port2. Uses one RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and another for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. HP42X49: The FINAL version for HP-49G with both banks of Port1 empty. Uses one bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and another for the HP-42/Emulator RAM (uses the whole Port1). HP42X49D: The DEMO version for HP-49G with only one bank of Port1 empty. Uses this bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and and main calculator RAM for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. Destroys some parts of main calculator RAM! HP42X49L: The FINAL version for HP-49G with only one bank of Port1 empty. Uses this bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and Port0 for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. This version is especially suitable for use with HP-41X because it allows you to have both HP-41X and HP-42X installed together (into Port1). I am planning one maintenance release of HP-42X for october. It will contain fixes for all bugs which will (eventually) be discovered as well as the following commands: SAVE for exporting the HP-42 program to HP-48/49, LOAD for importing the HP-42 program from HP-48/49, SAVEP for saving the HP-42 program to port memory, LOADP for loading the HP-42 program from port memory, PURGE for deleting the HP-42 program from port memory and CATP for displaying all programs contained in the port memory. Registered users will get the maintenance release for free when it will be released. ==== On Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:45:56 +0200, HrastProgrammer fully emulates the HP-42S calculator because it is based on the real HP-42 >ROM. Beside the emulation, I added some advanced features (like 96K of RAM >and 31K of port memory) to the original specifications. So I guess this means HP has freely released the 42S ROM for commercial and non-commercial use alike? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== > So I guess this means HP has freely released the 42S ROM for > commercial and non-commercial use alike? > No, but you must dump the ROM from your HP-42S and use it with the emulator ... ==== You know, you are really making it difficult for me to resist buying this from you. :-) Gene -- * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * * but I own them. * > What is HP-42X? It is an HP-42S Extended MicroCode Emulator for HP-48GX/SX and HP-49G. It > fully emulates the HP-42S calculator because it is based on the real HP-42 > ROM. Beside the emulation, I added some advanced features (like 96K of RAM > and 31K of port memory) to the original specifications. Details on how to get it as well as some screen shots are on my homepage > http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com... There are few variations of HP-42X according to the various calculator > configurations and different user needs. These are: HP42X48: The FINAL version for HP-48GX with a 128K RAM card in Slot1 and >=128K RAM card in Slot2. Uses one RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and > another for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. HP42X48D: The DEMO version for HP-48GX with only one >=128K RAM card in > either Slot1 or Slot2. Uses RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and main > calculator RAM for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. Destroys some parts of main > calculator RAM! HP42X48L: The FINAL version for HP-48GX with only one >=128K RAM card in > either Slot1 or Slot2. Uses RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and Port0 > for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. HP42X48S: The FINAL version for HP-48SX with a 128K RAM card in Port1 and > another 128K RAM card in Port2. Uses one RAM card for the HP-42/Emulator ROM > and another for the HP-42/Emulator RAM. HP42X49: The FINAL version for HP-49G with both banks of Port1 empty. Uses > one bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and another for the HP-42/Emulator RAM > (uses the whole Port1). HP42X49D: The DEMO version for HP-49G with only one bank of Port1 empty. > Uses this bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and and main calculator RAM for > the HP-42/Emulator RAM. Destroys some parts of main calculator RAM! HP42X49L: The FINAL version for HP-49G with only one bank of Port1 empty. > Uses this bank for the HP-42/Emulator ROM and Port0 for the HP-42/Emulator > RAM. This version is especially suitable for use with HP-41X because it > allows you to have both HP-41X and HP-42X installed together (into Port1). I am planning one maintenance release of HP-42X for october. It will contain > fixes for all bugs which will (eventually) be discovered as well as the > following commands: SAVE for exporting the HP-42 program to HP-48/49, > LOAD for importing the HP-42 program from HP-48/49, > SAVEP for saving the HP-42 program to port memory, > LOADP for loading the HP-42 program from port memory, > PURGE for deleting the HP-42 program from port memory and > CATP for displaying all programs contained in the port memory. Registered users will get the maintenance release for free when it will be > released. ==== If anyone is interested I am selling both books on half.com they have never been used and are in exhalent condition. I am also selling my hp49 calc (id94202887) it is a new replacement calc from hp barely used. it comes with 2 cases, cable to connect to computer, both manuals and the pocket guide, also a costome made padded crash proof case I made from a sears craftsman tool case I got the idea from a rev post. anyway its all there if u are interested ==== What gives??? Forrest ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: 550 Invalid recipient: ) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to gateway.attbi.com.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 Invalid recipient: 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown >If anyone is interested I am selling both books on half.com they have never >been used and are in exhalent condition. I am also selling my hp49 calc >(id94202887) it is a new replacement calc from hp barely used. it comes with >2 cases, cable to connect to computer, both manuals and the pocket guide, >also a costome made padded crash proof case I made from a sears craftsman >tool case I got the idea from a rev post. anyway its all there if u are >interested > ==== I already said that the next marathon would be the Calculus Marathon and I already had started working on it, but I noticed that one can understand better Calculus when one has already understood limits and limits can be understood better if one has knowledge of series and sequences. So instead of publishing the calculus marathon now, I decided to bring you the sequences, series and limits marathon first, so that we can build calculus on important things that we deal with now. I already uploaded the document to hpcalc, but it will be available when Eric does the next update, so if I hope you enjoy it, though this time it is much programming, as the HP49G has not many capabilities for sets, sequences and series built in. (At least not those which are needed by this marathon.) In case you discover something that goes wrong, I would be glad to hear from you and try to correct the programs. Sorry that it took so long until it was ready, but it was hard and I had vacations. ( has that too ;-)) Greetings, . P.S.: BTW, the programs that come with the marathon show many many things while they are working, and they keep flasÇhing messages and display formulae and the like. Do you think, the greek gov. could take the programs for games? ;-) ==== > P.S.: BTW, the programs that come with the marathon show many many > things while they are working, and they keep flas?hing messages and > display formulae and the like. Do you think, the greek gov. could take > the programs for games? ;-) Hehe, I don't know about that, but I know that my 49G is outlawed for having Sokoban, and my Nokia 3330 (which, BTW, rules) for having Snake etc. It is, however, always nice seeing in which innovative ways a Parliament member can ridicule itself; trully creative. -- Al. Andreou . ``We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainity.''. . . . . . 42 ==== > P.S.: BTW, the programs that come with the marathon show many many > things while they are working, and they keep flas?hing messages and > display formulae and the like. Do you think, the greek gov. could take > the programs for games? ;-) Hehe, I don't know about that, but I know that my 49G is outlawed > for having Sokoban, and my Nokia 3330 (which, BTW, rules) for having > Snake etc. It is, however, always nice seeing in which innovative ways a Parliament > member can ridicule itself; trully creative. LOL! Just wonde how/when/what Harris will say ;-) Greetings, . ==== I just aquired a HP49G and am diligently learning how to use it. One thing that is driving me nuts is that I'm trying to graph simple functions such as a Sin(x) or even an equation of 2x+1. What's wrong is that x has suddenly taken on a value of -6.5 and I can't figure out why or how to stop it. Any quick recommendations would be deeply appreciated before my frustration takes me over the edge. ==== Nevermind. I was being brain-dead. > I just aquired a HP49G and am diligently learning how to use it. One thing that is driving me nuts is that I'm trying to graph simple > functions such as a Sin(x) or even an equation of 2x+1. What's wrong is > that x has suddenly taken on a value of -6.5 and I can't figure out why or > how to stop it. Any quick recommendations would be deeply appreciated before my frustration > takes me over the edge. ==== to program it (in sysRPL) but the problem is that there is no help for the sysRPL of the HP40. I tried reading .82Programming in System RPLé but this is a HP48 manual. I also have the entrypoints list for the HP40 but there are still a lot of differences between hp40 and 48. There are some commands in hp40 that dont exist in hp48 (or have different names), and there are commands in hp48 that don't exist int hp40 (or they are also called differently or used in other way). I would realy like to know if there are any resources on hp40 sysRPL programming becouse the hp48 book was usefull but it isn't enough. Help me please! ==== > ... I'm still wondering that one needs so many key assignments that > he/she doesn't remember them. > On the HP-48, I have a special CST menu with one and a half pages, > and all utilities I need only a few key strokes away. Raymond, using CST instead of key-assignments wouldn't help the normal user. How does he then invoke the various standard assignment of shifted or non-shifted menu keys? IMHO, a serious user of the HP48 (and the more of the 49) cannot live without clever key assignments. Since my 49 was stolen and I'm unsuccesful in trying to buy a new China made HP49 - no good hints in this NG :-( I returned to my 48GX, with pleasure I must confess ... I just finished a new edition of the 48-Keyman (vs. 9.2002). A fundamental addition is a key-recorder. A record executes also keys from closed environements like the interactive stack. Thus, it is no problem anymore to program the UP-arrow key in such a way that if UP is longhold one drives at once to the top stack level - just by collecting the key sequence [UP][RS][UP]. Very economical if the stack is large. The 48-keyman comes with a new file TopKeys. And maybe key-muffles like you will eventually be convinced :-) Since hpcalc.org is inactive at present, get it from ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/hp48/keys - Wolfgang ==== > IMHO, a serious user of the HP48 (and the more of the 49) > cannot live without clever key assignments. So I guess I've never been a serious user, as I've almost never used the USER keyboard mode. ==== > IMHO, a serious user of the HP48 (and the more of the 49) > cannot live without clever key assignments. > So I guess I've never been a serious user, as I've almost never used the > USER keyboard mode. ...because the hp49 keyboard has been designed by you for you?! Jo-king :-P I participated in it as well ;-) But it's true I've *never* used the USER keyboard on either 48 or 49, personally. To each his own, Gerald. ==== > IMHO, a serious user of the HP48 (and the more of the 49) > cannot live without clever key assignments. > So I guess I've never been a serious user, as I've almost never used the > USER keyboard mode. Indeed, what you guess seems to be true; and in this respect you're in best company with my friend Raymond Hellstern :-) For me it is obvious that you never seriously worked with the calculator but with emulators (as does Raymond who uses his Hp41 if he's forced to do some calculations). Why I guess so? Compare the Interactive stack menus, for instance. True, you added some useful stuff for very large stacks like GOTO, but if you would have ever been seriously working on the HP48, you would not have changed the clever order the 48 interactive stack menu options but added new ones just at the end of the menu. And you would probably not have changed the very ergometric position of the 48-ENTER key (not talking on the rest of the keyboard). For users who like a rich keyboard like P. Karp and others I created Keyman. Why don't you load this and the new TopKeys from my HP48 site? You'll convince yourself how useful are the righshift-hold menu keys for quoting, etc. None of the 24 assignments proposed by TopKeys does interfere with the standard function of a key. - Wolfgang ==== > For me it is obvious that you never seriously > worked with the calculator but with emulators > (as does Raymond who uses his Hp41 if he's > forced to do some calculations). Why I guess > so? Compare the Interactive stack menus, for > instance. True, you added some useful stuff > for very large stacks like GOTO, but if you > would have ever been seriously working on the > HP48, you would not have changed the clever > order the 48 interactive stack menu options but > added new ones just at the end of the menu. And that's where you are entirely wrong... I've started to work with emulators at HP, and about one year after I joined there, simply because there wasn't any descent emulators at all. You also seem to forget that the interactive stack comes straight from the programmed ENTIRELY on the HP48 itself using the StringWriter editor also program ENTIRELY on the HP48G (started on the HP48S). Never used any pcs or emulators to program my HP48 (didn't even have a computer) So you should revisit your guesses.. ==== > For me it is obvious that you never seriously > worked with the calculator but with emulators > (as does Raymond who uses his Hp41 if he's > forced to do some calculations). Why I guess > so? Compare the Interactive stack menus, for > instance. True, you added some useful stuff > for very large stacks like GOTO, but if you > would have ever been seriously working on the > HP48, you would not have changed the clever > order the 48 interactive stack menu options but > added new ones just at the end of the menu. And that's where you are entirely wrong... > I've started to work with emulators at HP, and about one year after I joined > there, simply because there wasn't any descent emulators at all. > You also seem to forget that the interactive stack comes straight from the > programmed ENTIRELY on the HP48 itself using the StringWriter editor also > program ENTIRELY on the HP48G (started on the HP48S). > Never used any pcs or emulators to program my HP48 (didn't even have a > computer) So you should revisit your guesses.. not at all. Most people programmed in the early 90th at the real 48, at least they made hardtests of their creations on the real 48. I'm talking here on the HP49. Remember that many users switched from the 48 to the 49 *without* having the slightest idea on Metakernel. And these (including myself) had to get used, e.g., to the new, less intuitive appl menu of the interactive stack. For you this was no problem because you used Metakernel the keyboard, one should compare the 49 with the 48 *in its original state* only. Clearly, the above is perhaps not an essential issue for an advanced user. The 49 has so many new features that will last years to govern them all. A surprisingly seldom mentioned advantage over the 48 is the display of upper- and lowercase letters in menus. These show at least 5 letters of any long name, not so on the 48. IMHO, this machine can compete with the HP49 only with two additional RAM cards in the ports, with plenty of interface & OS software (not talking on Math tools). - Wolfgang ==== Wolfgang Rautenberg escribi.97 en el mensaje > IMHO, this machine (hp 48GX) can compete with the HP49 only with > two additional RAM cards in the ports, with plenty of > interface & OS software (not talking on Math tools). - Wolfgang This is my view, too. If I had a 49, I'll probably be happy... but with my 48 with 1280kb, MK, Erable, Alg48 and YEARS of my own programs and CAS updates, keyboard, menus, etc, etc, I don't think I will buy a 49... Really, this machine competes with the 49 ==== > This is my view, too. > If I had a 49, I'll probably be happy... but with my 48 with 1280kb, MK, > Erable, Alg48 and YEARS of my own programs and CAS updates, keyboard, menus, > etc, etc, I don't think I will buy a 49... > Really, this machine competes with the 49 For sure, but at what cost ?? Your set-up is worth hundreds more than a HP49G... ==== > For sure, but at what cost ?? > Your set-up is worth hundreds more than a HP49G... > HP RAM cards are veeeery expensive (I have one of 128kb) but there are cards from Klotz, Cynox that have reasonable prices... hate it...) ==== >> This is my view, too. >> If I had a 49, I'll probably be happy... but with my 48 with 1280kb, MK, >> Erable, Alg48 and YEARS of my own programs and CAS updates, keyboard, > menus, >> etc, etc, I don't think I will buy a 49... >> Really, this machine competes with the 49 > For sure, but at what cost ?? > Your set-up is worth hundreds more than a HP49G... Not necessarily. If I add a 1Mb card, I'll have the same hardware setup as R Lion, and that would would bring the cost of my setup (the 48GX and two RAM cards) to US $222.27. That's not hundreds more. Plus, it has expansion slots... and an IR port... and plastic keys whose labels don't wear off... and a big ENTER key in the right place... and a screen that doesn't display rainbows... and it looks like a serious engineering tool rather than like a teenager's toy. (I still think it's not quite as attractive as the HP-41, but it's far more attractive than the 49. The keyboard has nearly the same feel as the 41, too.) -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== Seen: > you would probably not have changed the > very ergometric position of the 48-ENTER key Unless your ergometric marketing department wanted you to make it look like a TI product, which now it does ;) I wonder why TI never got the idea of making things like HP, though? Gresham's law rules again. http://paws.wcu.edu/mulligan/www/gresham.html The course our city runs is the same towards men and money. She has true and worthy sons. She has fine new gold and ancient silver, coins untouched with alloys, each well minted, tested each and ringing clear. Yet we never use them! Others pass from hand to hand, sorry brass just struck last week and branded with a wretched brand. So with men we know for upright, blameless lives and noble names. These we spurn for men of brass. [Aristophanes The Frogs 405 B.C.] http://www.mum.edu . ==== Wolfgang Rautenberg escribi.97 en el mensaje > For users who like a rich keyboard like P. Karp > and others I created Keyman. Your Keyman (also your Unitman) lets me have MY 48 Keyboard. own menu system, etc. USR mode is always set in my calculator. ==== Sorry to hear you can't find a chinese model replacement for your HP49. Here in Australia the HP agent is still selling HP49's. The last I knew they were chinese models but this may have changed. Would be very international to buy an American calculator made in China from Australia for Germany, perhaps the UN could help. Stephen N > ... I'm still wondering that one needs so many key assignments that > he/she doesn't remember them. > On the HP-48, I have a special CST menu with one and a half pages, > and all utilities I need only a few key strokes away. Raymond, using CST instead of key-assignments wouldn't > help the normal user. How does he then invoke the various > standard assignment of shifted or non-shifted menu keys? > IMHO, a serious user of the HP48 (and the more of the 49) > cannot live without clever key assignments. Since my 49 was stolen and I'm unsuccesful in trying to > buy a new China made HP49 - no good hints in this NG :-( > I returned to my 48GX, with pleasure I must confess ... I just finished a new edition of the 48-Keyman (vs. 9.2002). > A fundamental addition is a key-recorder. A record executes > also keys from closed environements like the interactive stack. > Thus, it is no problem anymore to program the UP-arrow key in > such a way that if UP is longhold one drives at once to the top > stack level - just by collecting the key sequence [UP][RS][UP]. > Very economical if the stack is large. The 48-keyman comes with a new file TopKeys. And maybe > key-muffles like you will eventually be convinced :-) > Since hpcalc.org is inactive at present, get it from > ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/hp48/keys - Wolfgang ==== How about releasing a 41-fied version of the Keyman?! Some technique would reveal the keyassignment. Say double-click and double-click&hold for normal shift and shift&hold - respectively. I would use this KEYMAN Xmas edition not to have more keylevels, but to remember the assignments, which would be seen on the status area (or a simple ). PS: Can I now have keyassignments in my HP 48GX in ANY Environment?? X > A fundamental addition is a key-recorder. A record executes > also keys from closed environements like the interactive stack. > Thus, it is no problem anymore to program the UP-arrow key in > such a way that if UP is longhold one drives at once to the top > stack level - just by collecting the key sequence [UP][RS][UP]. > Very economical if the stack is large. X ==== > PS: Can I now have keyassignments in my HP 48GX > in ANY Environment?? One can assign a key in such a way that it does different things depending on whether in default mode, in edit mode, in PRG mode and in Immediate entry mode. However, it is impossible to assign a key to do still other things in closed environements like the graphic mode, the interactive stack, etc. This is impossible since these environements are Parametrized Outer Loops which have their own complete control on the keyboard. These remarks hold for both, the 48 and the 49. Bye, Wolfgang ==== Then I challenge you Professor Rautenberg to show you true talents (which I don't posses) and give us EQWKEYMAN, MTRWKEYMAN,.. Is it possible to hack into system that way? system hooks (like FILER) to us all. > PS: Can I now have keyassignments in my HP 48GX > in ANY Environment?? One can assign a key in such a way that it does > different things depending on whether in default mode, > in edit mode, in PRG mode and in Immediate entry mode. > However, it is impossible to assign a key to do still > other things in closed environements like the graphic > mode, the interactive stack, etc. This is impossible > since these environements are Parametrized Outer Loops > which have their own complete control on the keyboard. These remarks hold for both, the 48 and the 49. Bye, Wolfgang ==== Heyo- I'm looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator (15c, 41series, 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines. Specifically, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince 2.11 on Jornada 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720. -- while E <> ==== EV41 emulator: http://www.hp41.org GNU EMU48 (supports all graphical calculators from HP): http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/ There are other simple calculators that support RPN for WINCE, it's the case of CoolCalc There are many other FreeWare RPN calculators available, you can search at http://ppcf.mklabs.com/ or in any one of the usual places. > Heyo- I'm looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator (15c, 41series, > 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines. > Specifically, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince 2.11 on Jornada > 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720. ==== > EV41 emulator: http://www.hp41.org > GNU EMU48 (supports all graphical calculators from HP): > http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/ > There are other simple calculators that support RPN for WINCE, it's > the case of CoolCalc 'm having trouble with this. Perhpas I should have been more clear. I have a 320LX with WinCE 1.0, one with WinCE 2.0, a jornada 720, and access to a 680. None of these are Pocket PC Windows machines. This is dificult to explain. The machines I mention all have Keyboards and long horizontal, short vertical displays. Many bits of code made to run on Pocket PC machines will work on Handheld PC machines. I am trying, perhaps I will get one of these to function properly. > There are many other FreeWare RPN calculators available, you can > search at http://ppcf.mklabs.com/ or in any one of the usual places. >> I'm looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator (15c, 41series, >> 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines. >> Specifically, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince 2.11 on >> Jornada 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720. -- while E <> ==== OK, I really don't know much about the differences between HPC and PPC, because some times the programs work in both machines. The program EMU48 works in WinCE >=2.0, because it runs 'perfectly' in a Compaq C-800 (MIPS, WinCE 2.0), and applying an horizontal skin it fits quite well in that display, letting you run HP48/49/38,... http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/ So it should be no problem with the Jornada 720 There are XPander http://www.saltire.com/xpander.html but I think it is PPC only even if it runs in MIPS and SH3. You have CoolCalc http://www.applian.com/hpc/CoolCalc/ that works in HPC too, don't know if is programmable, EV41 emulator: http://www.hp41.org > GNU EMU48 (supports all graphical calculators from HP): > http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/ > There are other simple calculators that support RPN for WINCE, it's > the case of CoolCalc > 'm having trouble with this. Perhpas I should have been more clear. I have a 320LX with WinCE 1.0, one with WinCE 2.0, a jornada 720, and > access to a 680. None of these are Pocket PC Windows machines. This is > dificult to explain. The machines I mention all have Keyboards and long > horizontal, short vertical displays. Many bits of code made to run on > Pocket PC machines will work on Handheld PC machines. I am trying, perhaps > I will get one of these to function properly. > There are many other FreeWare RPN calculators available, you can > search at http://ppcf.mklabs.com/ or in any one of the usual places. >> Heyo- >> >> I'm looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator (15c, 41series, >> 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines. >> Specifically, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince 2.11 on >> Jornada 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720. ==== Or use Calc 98 get it at http://www.calculator.org/download.html it can do RPN and it runs on Windows 9x,NT,2k,XP and PPC JP > OK, I really don't know much about the differences between HPC and > PPC, because some times the programs work in both machines. The program EMU48 works in WinCE >=2.0, because it runs 'perfectly' in > a Compaq C-800 (MIPS, WinCE 2.0), and applying an horizontal skin it > fits quite well in that display, letting you run HP48/49/38,... > http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/ So it should be no problem with the > Jornada 720 There are XPander http://www.saltire.com/xpander.html but I think it > is PPC only even if it runs in MIPS and SH3. You have CoolCalc http://www.applian.com/hpc/CoolCalc/ that works in > HPC too, don't know if is programmable, EV41 emulator: http://www.hp41.org > GNU EMU48 (supports all graphical calculators from HP): > http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/ > There are other simple calculators that support RPN for WINCE, it's > the case of CoolCalc > 'm having trouble with this. Perhpas I should have been more clear. I have a 320LX with WinCE 1.0, one with WinCE 2.0, a jornada 720, and > access to a 680. None of these are Pocket PC Windows machines. This is > dificult to explain. The machines I mention all have Keyboards and long > horizontal, short vertical displays. Many bits of code made to run on > Pocket PC machines will work on Handheld PC machines. I am trying, perhaps > I will get one of these to function properly. > There are many other FreeWare RPN calculators available, you can > search at http://ppcf.mklabs.com/ or in any one of the usual places. >> Heyo- >> I'm looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator (15c, 41series, >> 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines. >> Specifically, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince 2.11 on >> Jornada 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720. > ==== schrieb im Newsbeitrag > [..] > Heyo- I'm looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator (15c, 41series, > 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines. > Specifically, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince 2.11 on Jornada > 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720. By the way, the Jornada 690 has Omnisolve built-in. This is a multi-mode calculator. It can be switched to RPN, and in this mode it's a simulation of a calc near the 11C, with (at least) one difference: the arithmetic keys (+,-,*,/) are not in the same order as on the real 11C. Otherwise, it's real nice. The only drawback: It's not programmable;-) Raymond ==== > EV41 emulator: http://www.hp41.org > GNU EMU48 (supports all graphical calculators from HP): > http://personales.ya.com/leobueno/ > There are other simple calculators that support RPN for WINCE, it's > the case of CoolCalc > There are many other FreeWare RPN calculators available, you can > search at http://ppcf.mklabs.com/ or in any one of the usual places. > Heyo- I'm looking for any sort of programmable RPN emulator (15c, 41series, > 32sii, anything) for windows CE machines. > Specifically, wince 1.0 on 320LX, wince 2.0 on 320LX, wince 2.11 on Jornada > 6xx, and Windows CE 2000 on Jornada 720. New skin for emu48CE can discharge them in my it paginates www.geocities.com/jaimezacalcs/hp/pc/skinhp3-4x.htm www.geocities.com/jaimezacalcs/hp/pc/emuhp3-4x.htm Jaime Meza ==== Sorry, but I can't find the product series function on my HP49. P(i^2,i,1,100)=1^2 * 2^2 * 3^2 * 4^2 ... * 100^2 I'm not sure wether product series are the right words. Its like the summation series but with muliplication. Can anybody give me a hint? thanks toralf ==== > Sorry, but I can't find the product series function on my HP49. P(i^2,i,1,100)=1^2 * 2^2 * 3^2 * 4^2 ... * 100^2 I'm not sure wether product series are the right words. > Its like the summation series but with muliplication. These is dark-side thoughts. Put them away! On a more serious note, this function does not exist on the HP49G. The TI word for it is Product function. You can emulate it with a user-defined function on your HP49G like this: << -> a b c d << a b 'b' = SUBST 1 c d FOR b OVER EVAL * NEXT NIP >>> 'P' STO Now 'P(X^2,X,1,4)' EVAL will return 576. In RPN terms, the syntax is 'X^2' 'X' 1 4 P -> 576. Mind you that this does not provide the symbolic part of such a function - for example P(EXP(X^2)/2,X,1,Y) won't be evaluated like on the TIs (in the HP program above, the limits have to be numeric). ==== Correct, I mean the product function from the TIs. Are there any reasons why the HP49 don't have this function? Toralf >>Sorry, but I can't find the product series function on my HP49. >> P(i^2,i,1,100)=1^2 * 2^2 * 3^2 * 4^2 ... * 100^2 >>I'm not sure wether product series are the right words. >>Its like the summation series but with muliplication. > These is dark-side thoughts. Put them away! On a more serious note, this function does not exist on the HP49G. The TI > word for it is Product function. You can emulate it with a user-defined > function on your HP49G like this: << -> a b c d << a b 'b' = SUBST 1 c d FOR b OVER EVAL * NEXT NIP >>> 'P' > STO Now 'P(X^2,X,1,4)' EVAL will return 576. In RPN terms, the syntax is 'X^2' > 'X' 1 4 P -> 576. Mind you that this does not provide the symbolic part of such a function - > for example P(EXP(X^2)/2,X,1,Y) won't be evaluated like on the TIs (in the > HP program above, the limits have to be numeric). ==== > Are there any reasons why the HP49 don't have this function? Because Bernard Parisse didn't code it. There have obviously not been too high a demand for this function, hence it was never introduced. I wanted it, ;-) - that makes three persons over 2-3 years. I postulate that the symbolic output of the Product function is very very rarely used - even in school. This means that the short program I provided earlier will be sufficient 99.99...9% of the time. It can be optimized heavily for speed, but I don't feel like doing it. You can though, as an exercise :-) ==== Ok, I unterstand ... << 1 SEQ piLIST >> piLIST => [MTH] => [LIST] => [piLIST] SEQ => LS [PRG] => [LIST] => [PROC]=> [NXT] => [SEQ] 4: x^2 3: x 2: 1 1: 4 => 1: 576 Toralf >>Are there any reasons why the HP49 don't have this function? > Because Bernard Parisse didn't code it. There have obviously not been too > high a demand for this function, hence it was never introduced. I wanted it, > ;-) - that makes three persons over 2-3 years. I postulate that the symbolic output of the Product function is very very > rarely used - even in school. This means that the short program I provided > earlier will be sufficient 99.99...9% of the time. It can be optimized > heavily for speed, but I don't feel like doing it. You can though, as an > exercise :-) ==== > << 1 SEQ piLIST >> A beautiful sulotion as always from John, albeit a little slower. ==== Yes, JHM hint is beautiful too (and small) but your proposal is also very nice ;-) (and a little faster) - END topic Toralf >><< 1 SEQ piLIST >> > A beautiful sulotion as always from John, albeit a little slower. ==== I'm not sure if this really counts as a series. It looks like (100!)^2. A coomon product series is a geometric progression, which is the sum of terms, each term made up from a product with a common ratio. What you have described is not what would normally be described as a series, IMHO. Anyone else care to chime in? > Sorry, but I can't find the product series function on my HP49. P(i^2,i,1,100)=1^2 * 2^2 * 3^2 * 4^2 ... * 100^2 I'm not sure wether product series are the right words. > Its like the summation series but with muliplication. Can anybody give me a hint? thanks toralf > ==== They sat down at the process table to a top of form feed of fiche and chips and a bucket of Baudot. Mini was in conversa- tional mode and expanded on ambi- guous arguments while Micro gave occational acknowledgements although, in real time, he was analysing the shortest and least critical path to her entry point. He finally settled on the old would you like to see my benchmark subroutine, but Mini was again one step ahead. ==== I recently acquired a ID947 model HP49G calculator and have heard about problems with the older Indonesian HP49 calculators - primarily: easily-scratched screen, rainbow effects, and text wearing off on the buttons. Are there any screenshots on what the rainbow effect should look like? I have a very minor upside down rainbow that is visible in the upper center portion of the screen. It can only be seen directly in daylight. I don't have any scratches on the screen cover - I have taken fairly good care of the calculator. Unfortunately, there does seem to be some dust collecting under the screen, and I'm not sure how to get rid of it. Do I have one of the infamous older Indonesian models? I have also heard of problems with the newer Chinese HP49G models. It looks like I lose either way! Any advice is appreciated. -- Titus Barik (barik@ieee.org) ==== X > have a very minor upside down rainbow that is visible in the upper > center portion of the screen. It can only be seen directly in daylight. That is it. Me too - in direct sunlight. Don't worry - it's not bad at all. > I don't have any scratches on the screen cover - I have taken fairly > good care of the calculator. Unfortunately, there does seem to be some > dust collecting under the screen, and I'm not sure how to get rid of it. I don't have scratches either. I left the plastic sheet on forever! :-) > Do I have one of the infamous older Indonesian models? Yes! And I think that only some models have the key paint wearing off. I think that you're ok with your calc like I have been with mine: 3 years!! > I have also heard of problems with the newer Chinese HP49G models. It Bull....! > looks like I lose either way! Looks like you won already - either way. > Any advice is appreciated. Oh! The dust?! > Titus Barik (barik@ieee.org) Veli-Pekka ==== > Do I have one of the infamous older Indonesian models? > Yes! And I think that only some models have the key paint wearing off. I discovered what was causing the paint to wear off on some of the keys (f6 and ENTER) on my HP49. It had to do with taking off and putting on the darn platic cover! If I am not careful on how I do this, the edge of the cover rubs on some of the keys with the ones at the corners of the keyboard being more prone to be hit. Now I try to take off and insert the cover with the edge of it being slightly at an upward angle so it stays away from the keys. I you do it slowly it is easy to see whether you are hitting any keys or not. Santos ==== Oh! So that's why... I never used that translucent slide-in cover... Do you know that you have to press from the center in order to let it slide out easily. > Do I have one of the infamous older Indonesian models? Yes! And I think that only some models have the key paint wearing off. > I discovered what was causing the paint to wear off on some of the > keys (f6 and ENTER) on my HP49. It had to do with taking off and > putting on the darn platic cover! If I am not careful on how I do > this, the edge of the cover rubs on some of the keys with the ones at > the corners of the keyboard being more prone to be hit. Now I try to > take off and insert the cover with the edge of it being slightly at an > upward angle so it stays away from the keys. I you do it slowly it is > easy to see whether you are hitting any keys or not. ==== I have a data stream of know length, which I wish to store in a variable. (I think it has got odd parity). Does anyone have a program I can look at, or know where I can find some more info. (the HP I/O guide was not much help. Rupert ==== > I have a data stream of know length, which I wish to store in a > variable. (I think it has got odd parity). > Does anyone have a program I can look at, or know where I can find > some more info. (the HP I/O guide was not much help. Well, which calculator? What is the length of the data stream? You're probably looking for the SRECV command, and if you're not quite sure of just when the data might be arriving, you might want to use the BUFLEN command in a DO loop. Note that both of these commands leave it up to you to determine what (if anything) to do about any I/O error. Also see the PARITY command. If you're using a 48 and the data stream is more than 255 bytes long, then you might want to edit the reserved variable IOPAR to use receive pacing, as long as the data doesn't contain characters 19 or 17 decimal, which would be treated as XOFF or XON signals. Otherwise, you'll probably either have to have the data broken up into blocks that the calculator can handle, or use one of the built-in file transfer protocols. -- James ==== Look at Joe Horn's archives > I have a data stream of know length, which I wish to store in a > variable. (I think it has got odd parity). > Does anyone have a program I can look at, or know where I can find > some more info. (the HP I/O guide was not much help. Rupert ==== I haven't found anything in the cheesy manuals, but it seems to be true, at least for my machine. If the 49g is in RPN mode, pressing on any of the plot keys (Y= to TABLE) just makes it beep. Putting it into algebraic lets me plot. Am I brain dead, is my 49g, or is this the way it's supposed to be? Doesn't seem like it should work that way. BTW, the calc is at 1.19-6, but it did the same thing with 1.18. ==== If you look back over this list, you will find that the answer is there. I'll save you the trouble of looking as this caused me some trouble also. You must hold down the shift key while hitting the F-keys. Hope this helps, Matt Additionally, it sounds like you have not gotten the Advanced users guide. Check out Hpcalc.org(hp49 section, documentation). They have it all. > I haven't found anything in the cheesy manuals, but it seems to be true, at > least for my machine. If the 49g is in RPN mode, pressing on any of the plot > keys (Y= to TABLE) just makes it beep. Putting it into algebraic lets me > plot. Am I brain dead, is my 49g, or is this the way it's supposed to be? > Doesn't seem like it should work that way. BTW, the calc is at 1.19-6, but it did the same thing with 1.18. ==== Can HP solve this diff. equation numerically? y'=-100y+id(-y+10sin(2 pi 50 t))/1e-4 and where id(vd)=1E-14*(e^(1.609E-19*vd/(1.381E-23*298))-1) with the initial condition y(t=0)=0 . Run t from 0 to about 0.04 to 0.1, with steps of dt=.0005 to .002 max. Vertical axis from -2 (y(t) is always >=0) to 12. My TI-89 can do this using Rk, producing a graph after several painful minutes. Ouch! Euler fails miserably. This is the sort of problem that I had mentioned at times about wondering if the calculators can do it. Unfortunately, this is the simplest possible case of the general class of problems which interest me, which usually involve systems of two or three (or more) first order non-linears like this one. These are electrical engineering problems. The equation above generates the waveform of a half-wave rectifier with capacitor filter and resistive load. Generally the calculations are done by SPICE, which is optimized for stiff equations. (I noticed Runga-Kutte really bogs down on the corners of the solution.) SPICE uses trapezoidal or Gear integration, and I do it in Mathematica as well using whatever it wants (I think an adaptive Adams-Gear algorithm). And of course using much more computing horsepower than a little calculator. It will be interesting to hear how the HP fares with this. Comments appreciated. -- _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net ==== > Can HP solve this diff. equation numerically? y'=-100y+id(-y+10sin(2 pi 50 t))/1e-4 and where id(vd)=1E-14*(e^(1.609E-19*vd/(1.381E-23*298))-1) with the initial condition y(t=0)=0 . Run t from 0 to about 0.04 to 0.1, with steps of dt=.0005 to .002 max. > Vertical axis from -2 (y(t) is always >=0) to 12. My TI-89 can do this using Rk, producing a graph after several painful > minutes. Ouch! Euler fails miserably. I don't understand your syntax. If you tell me what you punched into the TI89, I can identify your arguments. I get this: y'=F(y,t) -> y'=-100*y+(1E-14*(e^(1.609E-19*(-y+10*sin(2*pi*50*t))/(1.381E-23*298))-1))/1 E-4 y(0)=0 initial dt=.0005 Vertical view: [-2,12] I don't really get: Run t from 0 to about 0.04 to 0.1, with steps of dt=.0005 to .002 max. ==== >>Can HP solve this diff. equation numerically? >>y'=-100y+id(-y+10sin(2 pi 50 t))/1e-4 >>and where >>id(vd)=1E-14*(e^(1.609E-19*vd/(1.381E-23*298))-1) >>with the initial condition y(t=0)=0 . >>Run t from 0 to about 0.04 to 0.1, with steps of dt=.0005 to .002 max. >>Vertical axis from -2 (y(t) is always >=0) to 12. > I don't understand your syntax. If you tell me what you punched into the > TI89, I can identify your arguments. > I get this: > y'=F(y,t) - y'=-100*y+(1E-14*(e^(1.609E-19*(-y+10*sin(2*pi*50*t))/(1.381E-23*298))-1))/1 > E-4 > y(0)=0 initial > dt=.0005 > Vertical view: [-2,12] > I don't really get: > Run t from 0 to about 0.04 to 0.1, with steps of dt=.0005 to .002 max. Very well then, here is the more direct approach: FLDOFF t0=0 tmax=.1 tstep=.001 tplot=0 xmin=0 xmax=.1 xscl=0 ymin=-12 ymax=12 yscl=0 ncurves=0 diftol=.001 to .05 and various other tries. I suppose I should have said *Step* t from 0 to 0.04 or to 0.1, with a step size of delta_t of 0.0005 to 0.002. Good luck! -- _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net ==== > Good luck! I used a delta_t of 0.0005 (200 steps). I thought at first that I could expect a 6-7 hours calculation time, but the graph was complete in only 100 minutes. Pretty violent differential equation, for a calculator, it seems. MathCad 7 (yeah, I know, but it was all I had the patience to fire up ;-) solves and graphs 50000 points (delta_t of 2*10^-6) in around 2.4 seconds. The HP49G should be able to do this (200 points) in maybe 1-3 minutes tops. There's a little challenge for a '49-programmer ;-) ==== >>Good luck! I used a delta_t of 0.0005 (200 steps). I thought at first that I could expect a 6-7 hours calculation time, but the > graph was complete in only 100 minutes. Wow. > Pretty violent differential equation, for a calculator, it seems. MathCad 7 > (yeah, I know, but it was all I had the patience to fire up ;-) solves and > graphs 50000 points (delta_t of 2*10^-6) in around 2.4 seconds. The HP49G > should be able to do this (200 points) in maybe 1-3 minutes tops. There's a > little challenge for a '49-programmer ;-) Yes, and since this is the simplest possible case of the typical EE circuit simulation, it looks like I'll just have to wait until I get a high end PDA running some good math software or the real SPICE to be able to do this sort of thing in the palm of my hand. On the PC, EEs run these sorts of simulations, change parameters, run again, etc., in several second turnaround times. Can't wait for a bunch of minutes, that's for sure. Maybe we can try to get some quantitative benchmarks out now. Can you accurately time say, the 200 point case from t=0 to t=0.1, ie. a delta_t of 0.0005? And mention exactly what hardware and software you're using. I'll post my times: For the equation: y'=-100*y+id(-y+10*sin(314.159*t))/1e-4, y[0]=0 and with the function id(vd)=1E-14*(e^(38.9411*vd)-1) and the TI-89 parameters: FLDOFF t0=0 tmax=.1 tstep=.0005 tplot=0 xmin=0 xmax=.1 xscl=0 ymin=-4 ymax=12 yscl=0 ncurves=0 diftol=.001 I get 370.5 seconds on a TI-89 with 2.08 OS. 380 seconds with diftol=0.0001 Fails to complete with diftol=0.05 it in <= 0.01 seconds using Gear integration and a lot of fussing with accuracy parameters to get it to not overflow/underflow. Good day! -- _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net ==== How could I use Solve in case like this, in a 48G? Eq: A = B + C A = 8 B = 15*sin(377*Y) C = I would solve it ==== There can be ANY number of solutions to this. >How could I use Solve in case like this, in a 48G? Eq: A = B + C > A = 8 > B = 15*sin(377*Y) > C = I would solve it ==== > There can be ANY number of solutions to this. No, there is an infinite number of solutions - not any number. There's only one symbolic solution though: 'C=8-15*SIN(377*Y)'. In a sense we were lucky 'Y' wasn't defined - what a mess to solve it it was ;-) ==== I sit COWrected! No, there is an infinite number of solutions - not any number. ==== > How could I use Solve in case like this, in a 48G? Eq: A = B + C > A = 8 > B = 15*sin(377*Y) > C = I would solve it 8 'A' STO '15*sin(377*Y)' 'B' STO 'A=B+C' EVAL 'C' ISOL You will find interesting things in RS SOLVE and RS SYMBOLIC Arnaud ==== > How could I use Solve in case like this, in a 48G? Eq: A = B + C > A = 8 > B = 15*sin(377*Y) > C = I would solve it If you dont have Erable or Alg48 installed, do this: 8 'A' STO '15*SIN(377*Y)' 'B' STO 'A=B+C' 'C' ISOL EVAL -> 'C=8-15*SIN(377*Y)' optionally {A B} PURGE afterwards. ==== Daniel escribi.97 en el mensaje > How could I use Solve in case like this, in a 48G? Eq: A = B + C > A = 8 > B = 15*sin(377*Y) > C = I would solve it Do I miss something or do I see TWO unknowns? (C & Y) ==== Can anybody tell me how to convert from decimal degrees to degrees minutes seconds? Also if anyone knows sysrpl I would like to know the command there too. ==== hours to hours minutes seconds is the same, so ->HMS, HMS->, HMS+, HMS- AND maybe using something like Nosy you can peek into the inner code and maybe find the SysRPL pointers. Extable has GETNEAR function for finding SysRPL commands by name. I hope this helped! > Can anybody tell me how to convert from decimal degrees to degrees minutes > seconds? Also if anyone knows sysrpl I would like to know the command there > too. ==== I sold my 49G some months ago and now regret it. Before I go off and spend $160 for a new one, perhaps someone else here has one they wish to part with for a reasonable price? -Al Arduengo -- Place your hand on a hot stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein ==== Does this mean that you will coming out with a spreadsheet for the 49? I sold my 49G some months ago and now regret it. Before I go off and > spend $160 for a new one, perhaps someone else here has one they wish > to part with for a reasonable price? -Al Arduengo > -- > Place your hand on a hot stove for a minute and it seems like > an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour and it seems like a > minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein ==== Oh, BTW, 'good to see you back. > Does this mean that you will coming out with a spreadsheet for the 49? > I sold my 49G some months ago and now regret it. Before I go off and > spend $160 for a new one, perhaps someone else here has one they wish > to part with for a reasonable price? -Al Arduengo > -- > Place your hand on a hot stove for a minute and it seems like > an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour and it seems like a > minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein ==== relatively inactive in the calc programming area. When I sold my 49, it was to the son of another Engineer where I work. He asked and I figured since I hadn't used it in some time, why keep it? It contained a 49 version of exAL spreadsheet in the flash :-( I will probably restart the project using ideas from the 48 version of code. My goal for exAL was always speed over looks so it doesn't look as pretty as XCELL. I hope to get one for $100 or less because I am putting most of my free cash into my meager astronomical hobby. Man, is *that* ever expensive. I have also been writing a set of utilities for observation session planning, etc primarily in the beginning to assist me in getting my Messier Certificate. Rgds, -Al > Oh, BTW, 'good to see you back. > Does this mean that you will coming out with a spreadsheet for the 49? > I sold my 49G some months ago and now regret it. Before I go off and > spend $160 for a new one, perhaps someone else here has one they wish > to part with for a reasonable price? -Al Arduengo > -- > Place your hand on a hot stove for a minute and it seems like > an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour and it seems like a > minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein -- Place your hand on a hot stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein ==== > I sold my 49G some months ago and now regret it. Before I go off and > spend $160 for a new one, perhaps someone else here has one they wish > to part with for a reasonable price? I see a bunch on Ebay, starting at around USD 50. Regard ==== answers in no time, just wanted to say thanks. Anyways, my question: When I enter the expression INTVX(SQRT(SQR(sin(x)+1)+ SQR(cos(x))) I cannot get an answer. I there a way to integrate? I have heard of EXPLN and some other functions. How would I approach this with the HP49G? GN ==== Check www.integrals.com. If Mathematica cannot solve this, most likely it has no solution. >When I enter the expression INTVX(SQRT(SQR(sin(x)+1)+ SQR(cos(x))) I cannot >get an answer. I there a way to integrate? I have heard of EXPLN and some >other functions. How would I approach this with the HP49G? GN ==== Mathematica can do it, I've just check it out.The solution provided by www.integrals.com lacks some simplification though. >If Mathematica cannot solve this, most likely it has no solution. >>When I enter the expression INTVX(SQRT(SQR(sin(x)+1)+ SQR(cos(x))) I cannot >>get an answer. I there a way to integrate? ==== I've seen that HP doesn't sell the HP32sii on the internet (there is just the HP20s). Is the 20s better than the 32sii ? I've got to find a programmable calculator but NOT graphical, don't you think that the CASIO fx-5500LA is the best ? ==== tayne escribi.97 en el mensaje > I've got to find a programmable calculator but NOT graphical, don't > you think that the CASIO fx-5500LA is the best ? No, I don't. hp 15c or hp 32sII. If you want more: hp 42s. Unfortunately, none of them is still in production and you must go to ebay... ==== ==== tayne escribi.97 en el mensaje It seems as I convinced you... but I feel that my answer was hard. I've programmed Casio's and Hp's since 1981 and I really think that RPN is much better than algebraic and formula programming. Good luck in your bids ==== New WinHP v3.7 Now supports HP49 native file editor format http://winhp.sourceforge.net http://winhp.sourceforge.net/download.htm Jaime Meza ==== I have a small question for those of you that code extensively in SysRPL. It's a problem I had a long time ago, but I never found a clear solution - not even by asking here. If I have a simple SysRPL program, say :: CK1&Dispatch #1 %2 %+ ; #0 SomethingElse ; ; The above program adds 2 to its argument, if that argument is a real, otherwise it does something else. That something else I won't to be return its own program name, with the argument unevaluated. If I call the program P, the examples below will illustrate what I mean: 2.2 P -> 4.2 'X^2+3' P -> 'P(X^2+3)' Along the same lines it should be possible to use the program in an algebraic contents, like this: '5.7+P(4.2)' EVAL -> 11.9 No command in any library I've programmed thus far, will accept such algebraic containment - for example will 'NINT(1,2,X^2,X)' [ENTER] result in an Invalid Syntax error, instead of.'NINT(1,2,X^2,X)' on the stack, which then could be EVALuated to 2.33333333334. How does one go about making library commands act both like commands, but accept being treated like a function? Exactly like the bulit-in ABS does - you can enter 'ABS(-X)' in the command line, and return it to the stack with [ENTER], or you could have -2 on the stack, and merely run ABS (either type it in or push the left-shifted division-key) and get 2. Does anyone know what I'm rambling on about? ==== I have a small question for those of you that code extensively in SysRPL. >It's a problem I had a long time ago, but I never found a clear solution - >not even by asking here. If I have a simple SysRPL program, say :: >CK1&Dispatch >#1 >%2 %+ >; >#0 >SomethingElse >; >; The above program adds 2 to its argument, if that argument is a real, >otherwise it does something else. That something else I won't to be return >its own program name, with the argument unevaluated. If I call the program >P, the examples below will illustrate what I mean: 2.2 P -> 4.2 >'X^2+3' P -> 'P(X^2+3)' > looking for. Taking your small program as an example, here is the modified version that accepts symbolic input (Jazz syntax) : ASSEMBLE CON(3) 0 RPL xNAME P :: CK1&Dispatch #1 :: %2 %+ ; 10 :: ' :: cknumdsptch1 :: 1GETLAM 1 SYMBN 1 ' xFCNAPPLY 4ROLL #3+ ; ; CODE LASTROMWDOB EQU #807D9 * #80829 for the 49. GOSBVL =SAVPTR D0=(5) LASTROMWDOB A=DAT0 A D0=A D0=D0- 6 A=0 A A=DAT0 X R0=A D0=D0+ 3 A=0 A A=DAT0 B R1=A GOVLNG =Push2#Loop ENDCODE #>ROMPTR >TCOMP EVAL ; ; If the argument is a real then everything works as usual. If it's in the symbolic class ( ID, LAM or SYMB ) then we need to handle it specially. For the symbolic case an explanation of the cknumdsptch1 word is in order. If numeric mode (for functions) is enabled it reduces the object on level 1 to a number (ala ->NUM) and evaluates the second object after cknumdsptch1 . Otherwise, if symbolic mode is enabled it binds the next two objects after cknumdsptch1 to the LAMs xSYMfcn and xfcn respectively, explodes the object on level 1 (if it's a symbolic), evaluates the object bound to xSYMfcn and then rebuilds the symbolic with CKSYMBN. If the object on level 1 is an equation then this process is repeated for both sides. With this knowledge you can probably see how the program works. One detail that might be confusing is the code object. I use this to get the ROMPTR associated with the currently executing library routine so that changes to the order of the library routines or the library ID will be transparent to the program. You can hard code the ROMPTR if you want though. Note: About code that gets bound to xSYMfcn. This creates a symbolic according to the standard representation of a non built-in function application ie. SYMBOL arguments SYMBOL ID function ; numberOfArguments xFCNAPPLY ; One last detail that still needs explaining is the small bit of assembly before the library routine name declaration. This is a property list that defines various attributes of the object that follows it such as if it's allowable in algebraics and many other properties that need not concern us here. All you need to know is that 3 zero nibbles preceding a named library routine is the magic formula for making it allowable in symbolics. >Along the same lines it should be possible to use the program in an >algebraic contents, like this: '5.7+P(4.2)' EVAL -> 11.9 No command in any library I've programmed thus far, will accept such >algebraic containment - for example will 'NINT(1,2,X^2,X)' [ENTER] result in >an Invalid Syntax error, instead of.'NINT(1,2,X^2,X)' on the stack, which >then could be EVALuated to 2.33333333334. The above also takes care of this. How does one go about making library commands act both like commands, but >accept being treated like a function? Exactly like the bulit-in ABS does - >you can enter 'ABS(-X)' in the command line, and return it to the stack with >[ENTER], or you could have -2 on the stack, and merely run ABS (either type >it in or push the left-shifted division-key) and get 2. Does anyone know what I'm rambling on about? > Hope this helps... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== > ASSEMBLE > CON(3) 0 > RPL > xNAME P > :: I'm not that good at Jazz syntax, but I translate the above to something along the lines of (MASD): CODE CON(3) 0 ENDCODE !RPL :: ... This won't assemble, though.....I must be daft as a brick. Well, I'll look ==== > I'm not that good at Jazz syntax, but I translate the above to something > along the lines of (MASD): CODE > CON(3) 0 > ENDCODE > !RPL You don't need this. The 3 nibbles before are used only to specify that this command (here P) is in fact a function. This is used by the compiler to know if doing something like 'P(value)' will be accepted or will yield a Invalid Syntax error. Unfortunately, I don't think CRLIB or MASD allow you to do such thing, only MAKEROM on the PC will. (I do not know about Jazz) ==== > Unfortunately, I don't think CRLIB or MASD allow you to do such thing, only > MAKEROM on the PC will. (I do not know about Jazz) Arghh!! Nooo! But I want to do it? This is one of the first real limitations I've run into with the HP49G - who can and will fix it? ;-) How about if I change or add those three nibbles after compilation? Can't be done either? ==== > Unfortunately, I don't think CRLIB or MASD allow you to do such thing, > only > MAKEROM on the PC will. (I do not know about Jazz) Arghh!! Nooo! But I want to do it? This is one of the first real limitations I've run into > with the HP49G - who can and will fix it? ;-) How about if I change or add those three nibbles after compilation? Can't be > done either? You have to write your library yourself, so that it can be compiled with ASM, instead of just writing the commands and invoking CRLIB. I have a template somewhere - but I can't find it this instant. Werner ==== > How about if I change or add those three nibbles after compilation? Can't be > done either? adding the three nibbles is quite easy to do by hand just hack the lib with ->H add the three nibbles add three to the length of the lib rebuild the lib with H-> and recalculate the four checksum nibbles at the end I'll write a hacking code that does this tonight in the train so you can do it automatically -- ==== > just hack the lib with ->H > add the three nibbles > add three to the length of the lib > rebuild the lib with H- and recalculate the four checksum nibbles at the end That won't be so easy. By default MASD enters one nibble before the name definition (8) to say it's a command. You need to replace it whith 3 characters. So not only you need to replace a 8 with 000, but then you will have to recalculated all the offsets, plus the checksum. Recalculating the offsets is definitely not a trivial task. If I remember correctly, LIBMAKER v5.0 by Christian Bourgeois allows you to create such library, I don't know if it has been ported to the HP49 (won't be difficult, I did the port for the HP48GX from the HP48SX). Otherwise, you have to build your library *by hand*. In fact, using 000 to say it's a function is only one of the aspect of it. Every single bit of this value has a meaning. If it was a command, the bits are as followed: ASSEMBLE CON(1) (nonALG)+0*(hasHELP)+0*(hasALIAS)+0*(hasPDATA) RPL hNAME xCMDAPPLY ( arg1 ... argN {cmd} #N -> {results} ) :: hasHELP is not used anymore. Here is the source code of NEG: ASSEMBLE **miscdoc+****************************************************************** *** ** prop_list defining field for an algebraic function **+miscdoc****************************************************************** *** CON(1) 0*(hasFORM)+0*(hasINTG)+0*(hasWHERE)+0*(hasVUNS) CON(1) 0*(hasDER)+0*(hasINV)+0*(hasCOLCT)+0*(hasEXPND) CON(1) 0*(hasHELP)+(hasPDATA) RPL xNAME NEG NAMELESS xCHS :: CK1&Dispatch ONE ( % ) %CHS zint QNeg ( FLASHPTR ) TWO ( C% ) C%CHS FOUR ( arry ) MATCHS TEN ( sym ) SYMCHS EXT UMCHS hxs bitneg grob NEGgrob seco NEGPICTgrob ; RPL **miscdoc+****************************************************************** *** ** algebraic function property list elements **+miscdoc****************************************************************** *** ** help data (if present) ( Textbook data ) * GDATACHS * parse data (if present) ASSEMBLE =CHSpdata CON(5) =DOHSTR REL(5) end2 CON(1) 0 CON(1) pdOP CON(1) pdEX CON(1) 8 (same as * /) end2 RPL * derivative (if present) * D/DCHS * inverse (if present) * INVCHS * COLCT data (if present) * EXPND data (if present) * FORM menu (if present) * MANMENUCSIV * Integral Data (if present) * WHERE Building Data (if present) * very-unsyminner Data (if present) ---- As you can see, you can define how the compiler syntax (RPL) , how OBJ-> is going to work on it. Most of the fields however have no meaning on the HP49 as the CAS and the decompiler now use static table. ==== > That won't be so easy. > By default MASD enters one nibble before the name definition (8) to say it's > a command. > You need to replace it whith 3 characters. So not only you need to replace a 8 with 000, but then you will have to > recalculated all the offsets, plus the checksum. I added 000 after the name and before the body and it works!!! so from 87B4000D9D20... I made 87B4000000D9D20... Why does this also work? I will change my code to do the things you mentioned but for now you can use this. > Recalculating the offsets > is definitely not a trivial task. recalculating is quite easy, I admit that I forgot to mention that in my previous post. you need to change the hash table and the offset to the config object This code takes two arguments: the lib and a real/zint the zint is the id of the rompointer that you want changed into a function so: 2: library 1207 1: 0 changes the first rompointer into a function. the code is sparsely commented but you should be able to read it :: CK1&Dispatch #8F1 :: COERCE CODE GOSBVL POP# % get romptr CLRST R4=A A GOSBVL PopASavptr % get lib R3=A A D0=A D0+5 C=DAT0 A % length of lib C+8 A % add prologue and nullnibs GOSBVL CREATETEMP GONC MEMOK GOVLNG GPMEMERR *MEMOK A=R3 A AD0EX % D0= old lib D1=A % D1= new lib R0=A A A=DAT0 A % copy prologue DAT1=A A D1+5 D0+5 A=DAT0 A A+3 A % add 3 to length DAT1=A A D0+5 D1+5 C=0 A C=DAT0 B % title length ?C=0 A -> NOTITLE C+1 A % add second length field *NOTITLE C+C A C+20 A % copy offsets COPYDN C=DAT0 A C+3 A % config offset DAT1=C A D0+5 D1+5 A=DAT0 A % link prologue DAT1=A A D1+5 D0+5 C=DAT0 A % link length C+5 A % add hash prologue COPYDN C=DAT0 A % hash length DAT1=C A D0+5 D1+5 GOSBVL DIV5 % # of romptrs +1 C-2 A B=C A R1=C A % # of romptrs -1 C=R4 A % func romptr B-C A % numer of romps to be moved -1 A=C A C+C A C+C A C+A A COPYDN % copy offsets *HASH A=DAT0 A A+3 A % add 3 to offset DAT1=A A D0+5 D1+5 B-1 A GONC HASH *OUT LC 00007 COPYDN % copy nibble libid romptr id D0-3 A=DAT0 X % romptr id D0+3 C=R4 A % func romptr ?A#C X -> NULL C=0 A DAT1=C X % add the zeros D1+3 *NULL C=R1 A % last romptr ?A#C X -> LAST ST=1 9 *LAST CD0EX D0=C D=C A GOSBVL SKIPOB C=D A CD0EX C-D A COPYDN % copy romptr body ?ST=0 9 -> OUT C=R3 A CD0EX D0+5 A=DAT0 A D=C A D0=C C=R3 A C+A A C-D A C+1 A COPYDN % copy rest of lib A=R0 A D0=A D0+5 A=DAT0 A A-4 A GOSBVL DoCRC % new crc P=3 DAT0=A WP P=0 GOVLNG GPPushR0Lp ENDCODE ; ; @ -- ==== WOW! there is a bug in the code when the function rompointer is the last one in the lib please use this code instead, it has the bugfix and changes the 8 into three zero's like JYA said. It now also checks if the rompointer id is valid CHECKSUM: #D624h, 272.5 bytes :: CK1&Dispatch #8F1 :: COERCE CODE GOSBVL POP# % get romptr CLRST R4=A A GOSBVL PopASavptr % get lib R3=A A D0=A D0+5 C=DAT0 A % length of lib C+7 A % add prologue and nullnibs GOSBVL CREATETEMP GONC MEMOK GOVLNG GPMEMERR *MEMOK A=R3 A AD0EX % D0= old lib D1=A % D1= new lib R0=A A A=DAT0 A % copy prologue DAT1=A A D1+5 D0+5 A=DAT0 A A+2 A % add 2 to length DAT1=A A D0+5 D1+5 C=0 A C=DAT0 B % title length ?C=0 A -> NOTITLE C+1 A % add second length field *NOTITLE C+C A C+20 A % copy offsets COPYDN C=DAT0 A C+2 A % config offset DAT1=C A D0+5 D1+5 A=DAT0 A % link prologue DAT1=A A D1+5 D0+5 C=DAT0 A % link length C+5 A % add hash prologue COPYDN C=DAT0 A % hash length DAT1=C A D0+5 D1+5 GOSBVL DIV5 % # of romptrs +1 C-2 A B=C A R1=C A % # of romptrs -1 A=R4 A ?A<=C A -> ERR LC 00203 GOVLNG GPErrjmpC *ERR C=R4 A % func romptr B-C A % numer of romps to be moved -1 A=C A C+C A C+C A C+A A COPYDN % copy offsets *HASH A=DAT0 A A+2 A % add 2 to offset DAT1=A A D0+5 D1+5 B-1 A GONC HASH *OUT LC 00007 COPYDN % copy nibble libid romptr id D0-3 A=DAT0 X % romptr id D0+3 C=R4 A % func romptr ?A#C X -> NULL D1-7 C=0 A DAT1=C X % add the zeros D1+3 D0-6 LC 00006 COPYDN *NULL D0-3 A=DAT0 X % romptr id D0+3 C=R1 A % last romptr ?A#C X -> LAST ST=1 9 *LAST CD0EX D0=C D=C A GOSBVL SKIPOB C=D A CD0EX C-D A COPYDN % copy romptr body ?ST=0 9 -> OUT C=R3 A CD0EX D0+5 A=DAT0 A D=C A D0=C C=R3 A C+A A C-D A C+1 A COPYDN % copy rest of lib A=R0 A D0=A D0+5 A=DAT0 A A-4 A GOSBVL DoCRC % new crc P=3 DAT0=A WP P=0 GOVLNG GPPushR0Lp ENDCODE ; ; @ -- ==== > please use this code instead, it has the bugfix and changes the 8 into three > zero's like JYA said. I forgot to mention that the code only works for libs created with CRLIB because it assumes that the config object is at the end of the lib (and present) and it will also fail when there is a $extprg If you want I can fix it. I knew that it seemed too easy :-) -- ==== > I forgot to mention that the code only works for libs created with CRLIB and I found another bug, with hidden rompointers this version fixes it all (hidden rompointers, $extprg, $message) the lib still needs to be build with CRLIB because of the order of the various parts sorry if I caused any TTRM's :: CK2&Dispatch #8F1 :: COERCE CODE GOSBVL POP# % get romptr CLRST R4=A A GOSBVL PopASavptr % get lib R3=A A D0=A D0+5 C=DAT0 A % length of lib C+7 A % add prologue and nullnibs GOSBVL CREATETEMP GONC MEMOK GOVLNG GPMEMERR *MEMOK A=R3 A AD0EX % D0= old lib D1=A % D1= new lib R0=A A A=DAT0 A % copy prologue DAT1=A A D1+5 D0+5 A=DAT0 A A+2 A % add 3 to length DAT1=A A D0+5 D1+5 C=0 A C=DAT0 B % title length ?C=0 A -> NOTITLE C+1 A % add second length field *NOTITLE C+C A C+10 A COPYDN C=DAT0 A ?C=0 A -> MESS ST=1 10 *MESS LC 0000A COPYDN C=DAT0 A ?C=0 A -> NOCONF C+2 A % config offset *NOCONF DAT1=C A D0+5 D1+5 A=DAT0 A LC 0C5D0 ?A#C A -> EXT LC 00010 COPYDN *EXT ?ST=0 10 -> NOMESS C=DAT0 A DAT1=C A D0+5 D1+5 C=DAT0 A COPYDN *NOMESS A=DAT0 A % link prologue DAT1=A A D1+5 D0+5 CD0EX D=C A D0=C C=DAT0 A % link length COPYDN CD0EX B=C A C=D A D0=C D0+85 C=DAT0 A AD0EX C+A A BCEX A D0=C C-B A GOSBVL DIV5 C-1 A R2=C A % # of romptrs -1 C=DAT0 A % hash prologue DAT1=C A D0+5 D1+5 C=DAT0 A % hash length DAT1=C A D0+5 D1+5 GOSBVL DIV5 C-2 A B=C A A=R4 A ?A<=C A -> ERR LC 00203 GOVLNG GPErrjmpC *ERR C=R4 A % func romptr B-C A % numer of romps to be moved -1 A=C A C+C A C+C A C+A A COPYDN % copy offsets *HASH A=DAT0 A A+2 A % add 3 to offset DAT1=A A D0+5 D1+5 B-1 A GONC HASH *OUT LC 00007 COPYDN % copy nibble libid romptr id D0-3 A=DAT0 X % romptr id D0+3 C=R4 A % func romptr ?A#C X -> NULL D1-7 C=0 A DAT1=C X % add the zeros D1+3 D0-6 LC 00006 COPYDN *NULL D0-3 A=DAT0 X % romptr id D0+3 C=R2 A % last romptr ?A#C X -> LAST ST=1 9 *LAST CD0EX D0=C D=C A GOSBVL SKIPOB C=D A CD0EX C-D A COPYDN % copy romptr body ?ST=0 9 -> OUT C=R3 A CD0EX D0+5 A=DAT0 A D=C A D0=C C=R3 A C+A A C-D A C+1 A COPYDN % copy rest of lib A=R0 A D0=A D0+5 A=DAT0 A A-4 A GOSBVL DoCRC % new crc P=3 DAT0=A WP P=0 GOVLNG GPPushR0Lp ENDCODE ; ; @ -- ==== > just hack the lib with ->H > add the three nibbles > add three to the length of the lib > rebuild the lib with H- and recalculate the four checksum nibbles at the end Hmm, I thought the three nibbles belonged to the function, not the library? Do you mean I should search for the proper function in the library Hex-string? > I'll write a hacking code that does this tonight in the train > so you can do it automatically ==== > Hmm, I thought the three nibbles belonged to the function, not the library? you might be right, I'll look into it -- ==== On Sat, 07 Sep 2002 22:45:53 -0500, Jonathan Busby >Note: About code that gets bound to xSYMfcn. This creates a symbolic >according to the standard representation of a non built-in function >application ie. >SYMBOL arguments SYMBOL ID function ; numberOfArguments xFCNAPPLY ; Get rid of the ID in SYMBOL ID function ; above . ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== Does anybody have an example of how to code the input from in sysrpl please? MC ==== Yesterday I ordered a HP 49G. It will be here Tuesday the 10th. Did I do a dumb thing ordering a calculator that has been discontinued? If so don't tell me ;) honors class and will hopefully be able to use it well into college, even if there are better calcs out by then. Everyone else and their dog is using a Ti 83-Plus but I've used the 49G emulator a lot and the 83s just drive me nuts! (Does it bug anybody else that you have to hit second and then mode to quit something? Don't you quit a lot more often than you change calculator settings?) ANYWAY...what do I need to do as soon as it gets here and what should I know about it up front? Ryan ==== > Yesterday I ordered a HP 49G. It will be here Tuesday the 10th. Did > I do a dumb thing ordering a calculator that has been discontinued? Heck, no! Lots of old timers still think their 67 or 41 or (insert your particular favorite here) was the BEST calcualtor EVER made....just because it might be discontinued doesn't mean that it will stop working! > honors class and will hopefully be able to use it well into college, > even if there are better calcs out by then. It should be quite usable for the foreseeable future....and it's not overkill if you really use it as a tool to learn your math better and not just as an appliance to to the math for you... Everyone else and their dog is using a Ti 83-Plus but I've used the > 49G emulator a lot and the 83s just drive me nuts! (Does it bug > anybody else that you have to hit second and then mode to quit > something? Don't you quit a lot more often than you change > calculator settings?) > The TI 83 and 89 etc are ok, but I think you will find you will be able to make the 49 do things the TIs can't ANYWAY...what do I need to do as soon as it gets here and what should > I know about it up front? > Get thee to www.hpcalc.org !! (get a cable, update the ROM and then check to see what programs will be useful for your classes....and always, always, Good luck, Roger Metcalf Arlington, Texas, USA ==== > Yesterday I ordered a HP 49G. It will be here Tuesday the 10th. Did > I do a dumb thing ordering a calculator that has been discontinued? If > so don't tell me ;) It has not been discontinued - yet. Eventually every calculator will be. I'm still using my HP-41CX. X > something? Don't you quit a lot more often than you change [ON] cancels in the HP 49G and I think ergonomically you have chosen the best of the best. > ANYWAY...what do I need to do as soon as it gets here and what should > I know about it up front? X Get yourself at least the Vol.I of the Urroz's HP 49G books http://www.engineering.usu.edu/cee/faculty/gurro/myBooks.htm Read this news group regularly and remember to use Google: http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?group=comp.sys.hp48 There are a lot of useful programs and documents in the www.hpcalc.org ==== I took off the batteries for 3 minutes, the time the condensator would go empty and my libraries deleted... However when i put the batteries back in, the calculator wont start :(:( I dont know whats wrong :( Lopez ==== Matthias Lopez schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I took off the batteries for 3 minutes, the time the condensator would > go empty and my libraries deleted... > However when i put the batteries back in, the calculator wont start :(:( > I dont know whats wrong :( > You could use the pinhole reset. For this you have to remove the upper right rubber foot, when looking at the back side of your calc. There's a small hole with a letter 'R' nearby. Take a needle and put it *carefully* into the hole for a short moment. Raymond ==== > Matthias Lopez schrieb im Newsbeitrag > >>I took off the batteries for 3 minutes, the time the condensator would >>go empty and my libraries deleted... >>However when i put the batteries back in, the calculator wont start :(:( >>I dont know whats wrong :( >> You could use the pinhole reset. > For this you have to remove the upper right rubber foot, > when looking at the back side of your calc. > There's a small hole with a letter 'R' nearby. > Take a needle and put it *carefully* into the hole for a short moment. > Raymond Sorry it does not work... Lopez ==== leave the batteries out for an extended period, say even 24 hours. short the + and - together to help drain the charge. It will come back to life ... be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== Baboo schrieb im Newsbeitrag > leave the batteries out for an extended period, say even 24 hours. short the + > and - together to help drain the charge. It will come back to life ... > But be sure NOT to reverse the polarity of the batteries when putting them in. This will damage your calc. For further info on this topic, check out www.hpcalc.org Raymond ==== > Baboo schrieb im Newsbeitrag > >>leave the batteries out for an extended period, say even 24 hours. short the + > >>and - together to help drain the charge. >>It will come back to life ... >> But be sure NOT to reverse the polarity of the batteries when putting them > in. > This will damage your calc. For further info on this topic, check out www.hpcalc.org Raymond Finally got it working. My hands were sweaty so i guess that might have been the problem :) I truly appreciate the help you folks gave me Matthias Lopez ==== Filer1 and Filer2 (all in Filer1.zip) on my site below with an option Zoom on the Z-key for scanning a file whose name starts with a letter to be typed in. The essentials of the Zoom option have been created by Luis Morales, thanks a lot :-). This search option is really useful if a directory or port has many files. It got the name Zoom for mnemotic reason. I would prefer Filer2 with its 2-page appl menu. The 2nd page contains the Transfer-options, in particular a toggling menu key for ASCII/BINARY. As a matter of fact, one should find a balance between the number of active hardkeys and the number of menu pages. I hope that Filer2 realizes the right balance. Have fun, Wolfgang ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools PS. Since I have got no working 49 at present, I used the MASD PC-tools. This took me 3x more time than I'd have needed on the HP49 :-) I felt like Beethoven when he - already completely deaf - composed his famous string quartet op. 135 Muss es sein? (Must it be?). The only way to get satisfaction from a creation in such a situation is to *imagine* how other people might be pleased. I'm in a better situation than was Beethoven since I may still read whether you're please or not; the mentioned opus 135 was published only in 1827, after Beethoven's death ... ==== thanks a lot for this. Your composition sounds beautifull ;-). Great work. Best wishes, Walter > Filer1 and Filer2 (all in Filer1.zip) on my site below > with an option Zoom on the Z-key for scanning a file > whose name starts with a letter to be typed in. The > essentials of the Zoom option have been created by > Luis Morales, thanks a lot :-). This search option is > really useful if a directory or port has many files. > It got the name Zoom for mnemotic reason. I would prefer Filer2 with its 2-page appl menu. The > 2nd page contains the Transfer-options, in particular > a toggling menu key for ASCII/BINARY. As a matter of > fact, one should find a balance between the number of > active hardkeys and the number of menu pages. I hope > that Filer2 realizes the right balance. Have fun, Wolfgang > ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools PS. Since I have got no working 49 at present, I used > the MASD PC-tools. This took me 3x more time than I'd > have needed on the HP49 :-) I felt like Beethoven when > he - already completely deaf - composed his famous string > quartet op. 135 Muss es sein? (Must it be?). The only > way to get satisfaction from a creation in such a situation > is to *imagine* how other people might be pleased. I'm in a > better situation than was Beethoven since I may still read > whether you're please or not; the mentioned opus 135 was > published only in 1827, after Beethoven's death ... ==== > thanks a lot for this. Your composition sounds beautifull ;-). Great work. Filer1/2 have been updated to v. 12.2002, probably the final version before ROM 19-7 (in which several features of Filer1/2 will be built-in). Filer2 has on menu-page 2 a new transfer option. The ASCII/BINARY toggler has been replaced by the option IOP? (are IO-parameters OK?) which sets a menu for toggling all relevant IO-parameters - what is normally done with 106 MENU or by the 49-TRANSFER screen. But the IOP?-menu makes this setting much faster. Ideal for people who like fast data transfer and seldom use the time-consuming Connectivity Kit. Ideal also for data exchange between two calculators. ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools PS. What I'm particularly interested in is JHM's opinion on Filer2. All of what he was dreaming of is realized ... ==== permission? > ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools ==== > permission? > ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools Nothing forbidden, should run ! PS. There is a new OT49-version on my site. The only change is that the BZ-toggler ~ got still more power. It looks whether a code object is already compressed and decodes it appropriately. For instance, ACC can now be decoded by everybody. Jurjen Bos and I agreed that's time now to reveal the secret :-) ==== > PS. There is a new OT49-version on my site. The only > change is that the BZ-toggler ~ got still more power. No new LibEx in D<-->L ? For people that want LibEx 4.2; you can download it at: http://www.ahd.tudelft.nl/~peter It converts directly from port memory, and has the option not to rename rompointers to variables. -- ==== > thanks a lot for this. Your composition sounds beautifull ;-). Great work. Filer1 has been updated again, to include also XRECV as an option. This waits for input of one or several new names for receiving via XMODEM. More convenient than doing it on the time-devouring TRANSFER screen. The V-key displays besides ROM and CAS version also the current filer version which is 11.2002 meanwhile. Note that the filers have still 1.2 KB only :-) Have fun Wolfgang PS. In ROM 19-7, the ability of Filer1/2 of directly driving into the ports by pressing 0,1,2 will be built in. Searching for a name will be realized by setting a special SEARCH environement with active alpha key. This has its advantages but also disadvantages, compared with the simple search-management in Filer1/2 - one may forget to hit the alpha key for leaving this environement in time and has to start the search again ... ==== I have one question: How can I become a member of this newsgroup? As I have no experience with the use of newsgroups it would be nice if somebody helped me with some information ! Best wishes Bernd Bernsteiner ==== I have one question: How can I become a member of this newsgroup? > As I have no experience with the use of newsgroups it would be nice if > somebody helped me with some information ! Best wishes Bernd Bernsteiner > Welcome! You've found your way to the newsgroup and that's the hardest part! This group is not a private list where you must request to be put on it--just come on back from time to time to see what's going on. The list is populated by a bunch of very nice and very helpful folks... Roger Metcalf Arlington, Texas, USA (in the shadow of the giant TI world headquarters) ==== I hope, your HP-Calculator helps you bringing some light over the shadow of the TI-Headquarter building ! ;-)) Bernd Roger D Metcalf DDS schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I have one question: How can I become a member of this newsgroup? > As I have no experience with the use of newsgroups it would be nice if > somebody helped me with some information ! Best wishes Bernd Bernsteiner Welcome! You've found your way to the newsgroup and that's the hardest > part! This group is not a private list where you must request to be put > on it--just come on back from time to time to see what's going on. The list > is populated by a bunch of very nice and very helpful folks... Roger Metcalf > Arlington, Texas, USA > (in the shadow of the giant TI world headquarters) ==== I have one question: How can I become a member of this newsgroup? > As I have no experience with the use of newsgroups it would be nice if > somebody helped me with some information ! Best wishes Bernd Bernsteiner Welcome! You've found your way to the newsgroup and that's the hardest > part! This group is not a private list where you must request to be put > on it--just come on back from time to time to see what's going on. The list > is populated by a bunch of very nice and very helpful folks... Roger Metcalf > Arlington, Texas, USA > (in the shadow of the giant TI world headquarters) Hey just curious, what do you use your hp49 for? Calculating amounts of enamel to apply to teeth? Nitrous oxide mixing ratios? I use mine for calculus, but i am sure you don't use yours to scrape calculus from teeth? No wonder your screen is all scratched up!!;) ==== I have an HP48G+. How do I make custom units? Can't find anything informative. Example: 1_p = 1 x 10^-12 (pico) or .000000000001 so that I can convert for instance, 32.4_M ohms -> 32,400,000,000,000 p ohms. ==== ~Chris ==== Yoda escribi.97 en el mensaje ~Chris > ....and if you want create your own units menus, use Unitman from Wolfgang Rautenberg. www.hpcalc.org ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/hp48/tools/ ==== > How do I make custom units? Example: > 1_p = 1 x 10^-12 (pico) or .000000000001 > so that I can convert for instance, > 32.4_M ohms -> 32,400,000,000,000 pico ohms pico [p] is a built-in unit prefix, which can be applied to any other unit. You can directly convert to any desired particular output units using CONVERT, e.g. (note that GW represents the ohms symbol): 32.4_GW 1_pGW CONVERT You can also put desired units into a custom menu; e.g.: { 1_GW 1_kGW 1_MGW 1_pGW } MENU This menu allows you to create a value using one of the unit prefixes, then convert it to use one of the other prefixes (unshifted unit menu keys perform multiplication, left-shifted unit menu keys perform conversion, right-shifted unit menu keys perform division). If you want a general program to adjust *any* unit expression, so as to vary the unit prefix over all possible values, much like the ENG key on some Casio calculators, try these: HP48 versions: http://hpcalc.org/hp48/math/misc/casioeng.zip http://hpcalc.org/hp48/math/misc/unitscal.zip http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5h3fqg%24624%241%40news.iastate.edu http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=60rcjc%246vs%241%40news.iastate.edu HP49 versions: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3AB1F809.2FA3EB44%40miu.edu ------------------ http://www.mum.edu . ==== > If you want a general program to adjust *any* unit expression, > so as to vary the unit prefix over all possible values, > much like the ENG key on some Casio calculators, try these: HP49 versions: > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3AB1F809.2FA3EB44%40miu.edu also take a look at UTOOL 2.8 http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4612 The best thing for units IMHO. from the docs: This library provides tools to deal with units. It contains - A tool for fast interactive access to your favorite units, without having to dig through the multi-page unit menu. I don't think there is a more efficient way to work with UNITS on the HP49G or any other calculator. - USIMP, a configurable inverse UBASE command. - Commands to compute with non-SI base units (Planck, cgs,...) Also included are re-implementations of the most useful HP48 utilities: - Jack Levy's MUC. - John H. Meyers' UM, U1, U2, ENG->, and ENG<- - Matt Austern's unit converter for high-energy physics. -- ==== > How do I make custom units? Can't find anything informative. > Example: > 1_p = 1 x 10^-12 (pico) or .000000000001 so that I can convert for instance, 32.4_M ohms -> 32,400,000,000,000 p > ohms. Well, if you only mean prefixes, you just do 32.4_MOhm 1_pOhm CONVERT -> 3.24E19_pOhm. The HP4x series of calculators support these prefixes (page 10-5 in your manual): Prefix / Name / Exponent: Y / yotta / +24 Z / zetta / +21 E / exa / +18 P / peta / +15 T / tera / +12 G / giga / +9 M / mega / +6 k or K / kilo / +3 h or H / hecto / +2 D / deka / +1 d / deci / -1 c / centi / -2 m / milli / -3 u (the greek letter) / micro / -6 n / nano / -9 p / pico / -12 f / femto / -15 a / atto / -18 z / zepto / -21 y / yocto / -24 You cannot use prefixes if the resulting unit matches another built-in unit. Matches: min, Pa, da, cd, ph, flam, nmi, mph, kph, ct, pt, ft, au, cu, yd & yr. If you run into making custom units (like _yd^3/cm*W or _bytes), or the above prefixes aren't enough, write again. Before writing, look into the unit 1_?. Also see if you can find these units somewhere in the calculator: _rpm, _dB, _gmol & _lbmol ;-)). ==== BTW, I am meaning specifically SI units kinda like how it is done here http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/dictunit/ccprefix.htm > I have an HP48G+. > How do I make custom units? Can't find anything informative. Example: 1_p = 1 x 10^-12 (pico) or .000000000001 so that I can convert for instance, 32.4_M ohms -> 32,400,000,000,000 p > ohms. ==== I was wondering what mathematical meaning non-integer limits in summations (and product functions for that matter) have? In the next paragraph, S is the (Sigma) summation function, and P is the (capital Pi) Product function: You can evaluate S(X=1/2,3/4,X^2) on the HP49G (-> '35/64'), and you can evaluate P(SIN(X),X,1/2,3/4) on the TI89 (-> 'SIN(1/2)'). I imagine the calcs merely calculate the symbolic formula for the summation and multiplication with arbitrary limits, and then simply plop in the given limits. What mathematical meaning does this have? ==== I would have to say it makes absolutely no mathematical sense to have non-integer limits in a summation. Summations are discrete functions and it only makes sense (at least to me) to use discrete or integer limits. Aaron I was wondering what mathematical meaning non-integer limits in summations > (and product functions for that matter) have? In the next paragraph, S is the (Sigma) summation function, and P is the > (capital Pi) Product function: You can evaluate S(X=1/2,3/4,X^2) on the HP49G (-> '35/64'), and you can > evaluate P(SIN(X),X,1/2,3/4) on the TI89 (-> 'SIN(1/2)'). I imagine the > calcs merely calculate the symbolic formula for the summation and > multiplication with arbitrary limits, and then simply plop in the given > limits. What mathematical meaning does this have? > ==== Aaron said: > it makes absolutely no mathematical sense to have non-integer limits > in discrete functions and it only makes sense (at least to me) > to use discrete or integer limits. But we are all familiar with other things which were introduced to us as discrete definitions, yet which, with a little expansion of perspective, we can also understand as continuous. Exponents, for example -- when first we define an exponent as how many times we repeat a factor, it seems to make no sense to ask what x^(3/4) might mean, but we all know that it does represent something which is quite well defined, which we now accept just as much as the more primitive concept with which we began our earlier understanding. Similarly, the initial, simple definition of factorials is discrete, but the very same thing, relabeled as Gamma function, has a precise meaning for non-integers as well. The sum of the first N integers is known to be N*(N+1)/2; now, this formula has a defined value for any N, so why not then define the sum Sigma(N), limits A to B, as the difference between two values of that formula, evaluated at A-1 and at B, for any values of A and B? And how about the idea of number, which, when we can only imagine a one-dimensional meaning, leads to many difficult or insoluble problems, yet when we expand our understanding to admit two dimensions (complex numbers), it becomes extraordinarily powerful and complete. In much the same way, other concepts which at first may be summarily rejected by those who have not yet expanded their awareness and gained more experience and perspective are completely clear and obvious to those who have learned more and actually experienced them. Knowledge is structured in consciousness [our university motto] http://www.mum.edu . ==== I'm going to have to disagree with you here. It still makes no mathematical sense to use non-integer limits on a summation whose only purpose in life is to sum discrete elements with discrete indicies. If there is a way that you can expand the meaning of a summation by using non-integer limits, then you dont have a summation anymore but an entirely different function. In the example of an exponent, that is different because we can use algebra to prove how non-integers in the exponent work and make mathematical sense. It makes mathematical sense to have a real or imaginary number in the exponent. It does not make mathematical sense to reference the i_th object in a sequence for instance when i=3.2. I understand that you can make unique results with only using the index as a direct argument in the sum, but as I just mentioned, what sense does it make to reference a fractional element in a sequence whose elements are only (sensibly) defined by integers? If I gave someone 2 sequences and asked them to perform a discrete-time convolution from N=0 to N=11.5, they would look at me like I had lost my senses! Aaron > Aaron said: it makes absolutely no mathematical sense to have non-integer limits > in discrete functions and it only makes sense (at least to me) > to use discrete or integer limits. But we are all familiar with other things which were introduced > to us as discrete definitions, yet which, with a little expansion > of perspective, we can also understand as continuous. Exponents, for example -- when first we define an exponent > as how many times we repeat a factor, it seems to make > no sense to ask what x^(3/4) might mean, > but we all know that it does represent something > which is quite well defined, which we now accept > just as much as the more primitive concept with which > we began our earlier understanding. Similarly, the initial, simple definition of factorials > is discrete, but the very same thing, relabeled as > Gamma function, has a precise meaning for non-integers as well. The sum of the first N integers is known to be N*(N+1)/2; > now, this formula has a defined value for any N, > so why not then define the sum Sigma(N), limits A to B, > as the difference between two values of that formula, > evaluated at A-1 and at B, for any values of A and B? And how about the idea of number, which, when we can only > imagine a one-dimensional meaning, leads to many difficult > or insoluble problems, yet when we expand our understanding > to admit two dimensions (complex numbers), it becomes > extraordinarily powerful and complete. In much the same way, other concepts which at first may be summarily > rejected by those who have not yet expanded their awareness > and gained more experience and perspective are completely > clear and obvious to those who have learned more > and actually experienced them. ==== > It still makes no mathematical sense to use non-integer limits > on a summation whose only purpose in life is to sum > discrete elements with discrete indicies. > If there is a way that you can expand the meaning of a summation > by using non-integer limits, then you don't have a summation anymore > but an entirely different function. As the Churkendoose said, It depends on how you look at things. http://www.humanistsofutah.org/1994/AnnaHoagland_Journey-8-94.html http://www.oiquarterly.org/vol02/num3/vol02-3-01.htm http://home.bluemarble.net/~fumcb/sermons/010826.htm In the MTH PROB menu (13 MENU), you'll find a ! [factorial] menu key. Enter 3 and press it, and you'll get a result of 6; enter 4 and press it, and you'll get a result of 24; enter 5 and press it, and you'll get a result of 120. Well, is that the factorial function, or not? Now enter 0.5 and press it, and you'll get a result equal to the square root of pi/4. Hmm... Does the fact that it delivers results for values *between* integers mean that it isn't the factorial function at all, but an entirely different function? For every positive integer argument, the result is identical to the value of that integer's factorial, so in this light, you can not distinguish it from the factorial function, even though its internal method of calculation may or may not be to walk through the literal original definition. It *is* the factorial function, regardless of what algorithm it uses to get its result, much the same as the COS trig function is the cosine function, even though it does not actually construct a right triangle inside the calculator and go measure it (if that was your original definition); there are many equivalent definitions, some more general than others, which work equally well for computing cosines, and if the calculator contains an algorithm which accepts input angles which are greater than any possible angle in a right triangle, does that mean that it isn't really the cosine function, after all, but an entirely different function? If it's a different function, its only difference is that its domain is expanded, by the realization that what we had intially thought of as a definition of such a function is really only a special case of something more general, which in turn includes every original special case, with exactly the same value. Bucky Fuller used to lecture that what we call square numbers really have nothing to do with squares; he'd say that you could just as well call them triangular numbers, because if you make a row of one object, then a second row of three objects, then a row of five, then seven, etc., building up larger and larger triangles from these increasingly longer rows, you'll get exactly the same numbers of objects in this sequence of *triangles* as what you'd been calling squares. It's a kind of prejudice to say that the first thing we think of is the only way to think, or that our first experiences or learning of anything are the only reality, but that's the sort of prejudice which holds society back from expanding and developing its consciousness. Bucky said that the mind was that aspect of ourselves which generalizes our particular special-case experiences, and that this non-material, abstract factor of intelligence is what organizes the material aspect of the entire universe (including the material of our own brain). So did Einstein, I would say, from all the quotations I've read of him. And so did many others of the most visionary people in history. > In the example of an exponent, that is different, > because we can use algebra to prove how non-integers > in the exponent work and make mathematical sense. I suggest to you that the only difference is that you have had more experience developing your awareness of how this one aspect of a mathematical pattern can be generalized, while the other aspect is merely new to you and unexplored, but that each is equally valid (or invalid) in the end, and will make complete sense once experience catches up. But people tend to reject things based solely on lack of experience, rather than to be open to exploring and acquiring the more comprehensive experience. In 30-40 years of experience of teaching here, we all experience how we can in fact have our mind order both the mental and physical world within and around us, just as Bucky said, projecting a peaceful, productive, happy and supportive world, both in our own personal awareness and also to others, within the radius of its effect, depending on how many people experience a coherent state at one time. People who've never had the experience argue against it; people who have simply know that it is so. I hope that everyone finally makes it into the latter category, in time for most of the world to still remain undestroyed. http://www.mum.edu . ==== > In the MTH PROB menu (13 MENU), you'll find a ! [factorial] menu key. Enter 3 and press it, and you'll get a result of 6; > enter 4 and press it, and you'll get a result of 24; > enter 5 and press it, and you'll get a result of 120. Well, is that the factorial function, or not? Now enter 0.5 and press it, and you'll get a result > equal to the square root of pi/4. Hmm... Does the fact that it delivers results for > values *between* integers mean that it isn't the factorial > function at all, but an entirely different function? Ahh, John - you walked right into it ;-) Let me quote the HP 48G Series Advanced User's Reference Manual, page 3-412: !, Factorial (Gamma) Function: Returns the factorial n! of a positive integer argument n, or the gamma function G(x+1) of a non-integer argument x. With G I of course mean the greek letter capital gamma. Well, John. The ! function on the HP calculators is the factorial function for integer arguments ONLY, and the gamma function for everything else - hence it is indeed two different functions, merely with that interesting property, that they combined make a continous function. I do, however, understand the arguments made of continuity regarding summation, but the ! function was probably not the best example ;-)) ==== > HP 48G Series Advanced User's Reference Manual, page 3-412: > !, Factorial (Gamma) Function: Returns the factorial n! of positive > integer argument n, or the gamma function G(x+1) of a non-integer > hence it is indeed two different functions No more different than if I say that *this* man is George W Bush, while *that* man is the President of the United States, so they are really two different people, so long as I use two different descriptions or definitions. The function in fact returns G(x+1) for *all* arguments, since n! and G(n+1) are identically equal. Or, if we care to simply generalize our perception of n! so that we recognize its domain as all reals instead of only positive integers, then the function returns the generalized x! for all x. This argument seems to hinge on you and Aaron considering that functions are different if they use different algorithms, or even different definitions, while I consider that they are the same if they produce the same results. Under the first idea, there are even multiple SIN and COS functions, (or EXP[M] LN[P1]), because the internal algorithms themselves change, according to both the type and range of the input argument, and further, since none of the internal CORDIC algorithms even resembles a fundamental definition of these mathematical functions, not a one of these is actually the real McCoy, but all are imposters! The second approach is in the direction of generalizing what we know as our experience and perspective broadens, creating a deeper unity in our consciousness, a general theme of Bucky Fuller and others, indeed a hallmark of our educational process, of which I sought to use this as an example. I call upon Shakespeare as my final witness: A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet. ;-) Best wishes from http://www.mum.edu . ==== > Are you suggesting that just because the machine > returns a result for both integers and non-integers, > that it is using the same algorithm inside? No; wasn't I explicit about this? > They *aren't* the same algorithm but, as I said, > an entirely different function. This would be true, if you characterize a calculator function by how it gets the answer, rather than by what answers it produces, the way that satirist and math professor Tom Lehrer once said that an educational program called New Math meant that we wanted to understand what we're doing, rather than get the right answer http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/newmath.htm It was said that Johann Karl Friedrich Gauss' teacher once asked him to add up the first 100 positive integers, but instead, Gauss recognized a shortcut, and got the answer in a few moments: http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Gauss.html Would Gauss' teacher have been correct to claim that this was wrong, because Gauss was using an entirely different function than direct summation? Or was Gauss correct, because he generalized and got the formula for the sum, using his mind to discover a more generalized function, which even covers a wider domain? The algorithms in the calculator very frequently bear no resemblance to any textbook's mathematical definition of the functions, anyway, particularly the CORDIC algorithms which produce answers for numeric trig and logarithm functions and their inverses; it could hardly be otherwise, because some theoretical definitions of trig functions (as ratios of sides in triangles having given angles) provide no means at all for direct computation, while other definitions (such as the sum of infinite sequences) could take infinitely long to evaluate; therefore, practical and fast numerical recipes are used, their only goal being to get the right answers fast, rather than to have anything to do with mathematical definitions. The results, however, are those which should be produced, hence we could well regard those buttons labeled COS, ALOG etc. as being the functions that they claim to be, because they deliver the answers that those functions should. When a student first plays around with these functions, after learning his first definitions of them, however, he might try, e.g., FACT(1.5) and notice that an unexpected answer appears. Should he then say hey, this must be an entirely different function, or can we say instead that it is really the same function, just generalized to have a more complete meaning, over a greater domain, based on deeper insight? To get to the bottom line, if there are actually several alternate ways to define a function, all of which turn out to give the same results, are we not at liberty to use these definitions interchangeably, as long as the results are equivalent? If, among these alternatives, one provides a meaning for a domain of inputs which includes more inputs which the others leave out, can we not regard it as a generalization of all the more special-case instances? Our calculator is evidently as wily as was Gauss, for it would appear that it also knows some formulas for the sums of some particular sequences, just as it might know the formulas for some particular integrals, and thus be able to save itself some work, as well as at the same time creating an automatic generalization of the summation function (I never did try fashioning a definition to match these outputs, but surely someone else's imaginative mind may be able do so). My real goal, in any event, was to try to give examples for the great insight of Bucky Fuller, whose theme is always that our special-case experiences can be generalized by our mind (consciousness) to encompass deeper and more complete knowledge. This goes further than merely finding formulas for sums; in the case of our educational system, all streams of knowledge are related to the fundamental consciousness of the student, and the student experiences everything he learns as being expressions of the pure creative lively intelligence which (s)he directly experiences when (s)he meditates. The meaning of this may not be clear, but the more years a student is in these programs, the more they excel in comparison with others, to the extent that our high school senior classes regularly find themselves in the 99th percentile (top 1 percent) of all the students who take state-wide standard examinations. So, G. W. Bush, great educator that you are, if you recognize such exams as indicating which schools are the best, isn't it time to start funding those that are just like ours? With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu . ==== > I call upon Shakespeare as my final witness: > A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet. ;-) John - this is maybe just a discussion over words or definitions - I never contested that the summation function shouldn't handle non-integer limits. I merely asking for some mathematical need for this - and continuity was given as a reason (an obvious one). I can go for that, as I myself occasionally use the gamma functions, and of course also the factorial and the like. Continuity is a Good Thing in many respects. ==== > I call upon Shakespeare as my final witness: > A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet. ;-) How forcible are right words! Job 6:25 Best Wishes to you too, John. - ==== But, isn't this integer->real thing actually about domains? I understand the power: Y^x to be a multiplication yet one can use also non-integer exponents. Are they two different functions? What about the Complex domain of the functions in the HP 48? Take eg. ACOS at the beginning of the Reference Manual which is a relation, not a function. The first system flag sets Principal Value / General Solution. I just want your opinions about domains - educate me! I want to learn more math :-D X > function at all, but an entirely different function? Ahh, John - you walked right into it ;-) Let me quote the HP 48G Series Advanced User's Reference Manual, page > 3-412: !, Factorial (Gamma) Function: Returns the factorial n! of a positive > integer argument n, or the gamma function G(x+1) of a non-integer argument > x. With G I of course mean the greek letter capital gamma. Well, John. The ! function on the HP calculators is the factorial function > for integer arguments ONLY, and the gamma function for everything else - > hence it is indeed two different functions, merely with that interesting > property, that they combined make a continous function. I do, however, understand the arguments made of continuity regarding > summation, but the ! function was probably not the best example ;-)) ==== I'll agree with John on this one - expanding the working domain of symbolic expressions is by far not a novel thing. Although I don't see any real use in this case, I don't see why there should be a ban on this, someone smarter will always come up with a use for whyt first looks like a mathematical whim or game. IIRC results like Sum(n=1..infinity) 1/n = -1/12 do seem to be useful at times in theoretical physics, although you'd first think this is complete Schprewntz. And think of the evaluation of the first terms of diverging perturbation series which yield correct results up to 12 digits... Wild, but useful... Just as Dirac functions were first seen as heresy before they were formalised into distributions...(don't remember by whom...) Gerard ==== > I would have to say it makes absolutely no mathematical sense to have > non-integer limits in a summation. Summations are discrete functions and it > only makes sense (at least to me) to use discrete or integer limits. I agree, therefore it confused me slightly that such summations could be evaluated (I had expected an error message) - hence this post. ==== > I would have to say it makes absolutely no mathematical sense to have > non-integer limits in a summation. Summations are discrete functions and > it > only makes sense (at least to me) to use discrete or integer limits. I agree, therefore it confused me slightly that such summations could be > evaluated (I had expected an error message) - hence this post. It is standard mathematical procedure to require the lower limit of such a summation to be integral, but not the upper limit, with the summation going to the floor of the upper limit. This would be similar to the FOR X := A TO B DO.... structure in PASCAL, where A must be an integer, but B need not be one. ==== I think has explained sothing in one of his marathon. The calculator knows the theoriccal formula for the summation of the n first square, S(x,1,n,xî)=n*(2*n+1)*(n+1)/6. To compute your summation, you just have to make a difference and replace the limit with your numbers (which do not have to be integer in this formula) to find the result given by the hp. Alban. I would have to say it makes absolutely no mathematical sense to have > non-integer limits in a summation. Summations are discrete functions and > it > only makes sense (at least to me) to use discrete or integer limits. I agree, therefore it confused me slightly that such summations could be > evaluated (I had expected an error message) - hence this post. It is standard mathematical procedure to require the lower limit of > such a summation to be integral, but not the upper limit, with the > summation going to the floor of the upper limit. This would be similar to the > FOR X := A TO B DO.... > structure in PASCAL, where A must be an integer, but B need not be > one. ==== > I think has explained sothing in one of his marathon. The > calculator knows the theoriccal formula for the summation of the n > first square, S(x,1,n,xî)=n*(2*n+1)*(n+1)/6. > To compute your summation, you just have to make a difference and > replace the limit with your numbers (which do not have to be integer > in this formula) to find the result given by the hp. I know this, but I was looking for the mathematical meaning behind it? ==== > I think has explained sothing in one of his marathon. The > calculator knows the theoriccal formula for the summation of the n > first square, S(x,1,n,xî)=n*(2*n+1)*(n+1)/6. > To compute your summation, you just have to make a difference and > replace the limit with your numbers (which do not have to be integer > in this formula) to find the result given by the hp. I know this, but I was looking for the mathematical meaning behind it? > He, he! Seems that tiny little indecent questions give more life to a group like this. Mathematical meaning, you ask? Well it has already been said that a summation is dicrete, therefor the summation limits have to be integers. This is not ablolutely true. Discrete (or indiscrete ;-)) has to do with something else. The formula for the summation just gives index, low, high and summand. These things in the formal representation of a sum still don't say if the summation is discret. It is the step, that means the change of index from one value to the next that makes the summation discrete. Now, nobody can say that it shopuld be not allowed to carry out a summation, like for example sum(n,0,5,n) in steps of, say 0.5, instead of 1 for n. But it is always (?) possible to change the summand in such a way, that a summation with step of 1 gives the same result. In our example the sum sum(n,0,5,n) would give the same result as sum(n,0,10,n/2) with steps of 1. Both summations are still very discrete. The situation gets indiscrete when the width of the step gets infinitesimal small. Carrying that to the extrem case of the tiniest steps that you could imagine, you get the integration. About such things, like summations of complex numbers: The problem is here not discretion or indiscretion ;-). The problem is that you must specify a path aling which you add. In function theory we learn that there are functions which are indifferent to the way that we choose to integrate them in complex. The integral of such functions over a closed curve (circle, ellipse etc) is always nada, nema, zero. But there are other, quite unhealthy functions that behave exatly the opposite way. Same with sums. There are some summands that give different sums if summed over one way or the other. Now, about the mathematical meaning, well on the one side you have summations that accumulate some values using a finite step for the index, on the other side you have integrations that use infinitite small step dx. The width of the step for summations is not particulary interesting, since you can always change the sum, so that you get the same results using a step of 1. And since indices that go like 1,2,3,.... are somehow easy to grasp (integers, natural numbers) we use them. Or is there any other reason, Professor? Indiscrete greetings, . ==== > But it is > always (?) possible to change the summand in such a way, that a > summation with step of 1 gives the same result. In our example the > sum sum(n,0,5,n) would give the same result as sum(n,0,10,n/2) with > steps of 1. Both summations are still very discrete. This is what I was referring to by sensible. You can achieve the desired effect by making changes to the summand instead of making the limits of the sum non-integers. I'm not sure enough to say that it will *always* work, but at first glance I dont see why not. > Now, about the mathematical meaning, well on the one side you have > summations that accumulate some values using a finite step for the > index, on the other side you have integrations that use infinitite > small step dx. The width of the step for summations is not particulary > interesting, since you can always change the sum, so that you get the > same results using a step of 1. And since indices that go like > 1,2,3,.... are somehow easy to grasp (integers, natural numbers) we > use them. Or is there any other reason, Professor? To make something that is inherently simple appear more complex? ;-) Aaron ==== But it is > always (?) possible to change the summand in such a way, that a > summation with step of 1 gives the same result. In our example the > sum sum(n,0,5,n) would give the same result as sum(n,0,10,n/2) with > steps of 1. Both summations are still very discrete. This is what I was referring to by sensible. You can achieve the desired > effect by making changes to the > summand instead of making the limits of the sum non-integers. I'm not sure > enough to say that it will *always* > work, but at first glance I dont see why not. Sorry, I didn't understand that you mean the same. > Now, about the mathematical meaning, well on the one side you have > summations that accumulate some values using a finite step for the > index, on the other side you have integrations that use infinitite > small step dx. The width of the step for summations is not particulary > interesting, since you can always change the sum, so that you get the > same results using a step of 1. And since indices that go like > 1,2,3,.... are somehow easy to grasp (integers, natural numbers) we > use them. Or is there any other reason, Professor? To make something that is inherently simple appear more complex? ;-) Yeah, that might be a real reason. Or else, what complex marathons should I write? Keep me from unemployment, so to speak ;-) Greetings, . ==== Try out 'EXP(X+2)+EXP(X)' FACTOR. It returns 'EXP(X+2)+EXP(X)'. Now try 'EXP(X+2)+EXP(X)' TSIMP FACTOR, and you get 'EXP(X)*(EXP(2)+1)'. Well, FACTOR doesn't work too good with non-rational expressions, huh? It needs help, with for example TSIMP. Another interesting question - how do we get from 'EXP(X)*(EXP(2)+1)' to the original expression 'EXP(X+2)+EXP(X)'? I haven't succeded in finding a way - maybe you can do it? ==== Try out 'EXP(X+2)+EXP(X)' FACTOR. It returns 'EXP(X+2)+EXP(X)'. Now try > 'EXP(X+2)+EXP(X)' TSIMP FACTOR, and you get 'EXP(X)*(EXP(2)+1)'. Well, > FACTOR doesn't work too good with non-rational expressions, huh? It needs > help, with for example TSIMP. > That's the way it is implemented. FACTOR does polynomial factorization not rewriting. > Another interesting question - how do we get from 'EXP(X)*(EXP(2)+1)' to the > original expression 'EXP(X+2)+EXP(X)'? I haven't succeded in finding a way - > maybe you can do it? > LIN ==== > That's the way it is implemented. FACTOR does polynomial factorization > not rewriting. Ok - an interesting limitation (TI-users will love this ;-). > LIN I still get '(EXP(2)+1)*EXP(X)' with LIN? ==== > That's the way it is implemented. FACTOR does polynomial factorization > not rewriting. Ok - an interesting limitation (TI-users will love this ;-). ??? Nice to know precisely what the calc does. LIN I still get '(EXP(2)+1)*EXP(X)' with LIN? > It seems to work on my hp49, in exact and approx mode, with or without 'X' in 'VX'. My version is 1.19-5. Camille ==== > That's the way it is implemented. FACTOR does polynomial factorization > not rewriting. Ok - an interesting limitation (TI-users will love this ;-). LIN I still get '(EXP(2)+1)*EXP(X)' with LIN? > Use DISTRIB, then LIN. Greetings, . ==== > Use DISTRIB, then LIN. Riiiight! That did it - thanks.... ==== I am trying to compile a input form program with debug 2, it is from the examples file for sysrpl document. I am getting the following errors which I have been trying to work out for the last few days: sasm.exe: error opening_head.a for reading sasm.exe: error opening_table.a for reading sasm.exe: error opening_end.a for reading Unexisting entry FPTR2 Help would be appreciated MC ==== My guess is that you are trying to compile a library, and that the library creation (namely makerom) failed for some reason. For example, if you do not have a library number put in (did you do an include of your project name.H in at least one of your files?) or that you do not have xNAME or NAMELESS in your program... > I am trying to compile a input form program with debug 2, it is from the > examples file for sysrpl document. I am getting the following errors which I > have been trying to work out for the last few days: > sasm.exe: > error opening_head.a for reading > sasm.exe: > error opening_table.a for reading > sasm.exe: > error opening_end.a for reading > Unexisting entry FPTR2 > Help would be appreciated > MC ==== the following problem: When I type xroot(3, 8), the answer 2 is showed (as expected) But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested and my expected answer isn't shown (that would be -2). Is there some configuration I could do to solve the problem ? Thanx. ==== > the following problem: > When I type xroot(3, 8), the answer 2 is showed (as expected) > But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested and my expected > answer isn't shown (that would be -2). Is there some configuration I could do to solve the problem ? > Your CAS has to be in aproximate mode. > Thanx. ==== > the following problem: > When I type xroot(3, 8), the answer 2 is showed (as expected) > But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested and my expected > answer isn't shown (that would be -2). That's strange. As long as I'm in approximate mode, I get the expected -2. whether I use 'XROOT(3,-8)' EVAL or -8 3 XROOT. But in exact mode, I get '2*((1+i*v/3)/2)' (where v/ is the radical character), and EVAL on that gives me '1+i*v/3'. Well, if I cube that I do get -8, but it's certainly not the answer that I would've expected. > Is there some configuration I could do to solve the problem ? Use approximate mode. But I don't have any idea why, other than try not to get the CAS involved in anything that doesn't need it; it seems to have a habit of making things more complicated than they need to be. -- James ==== > the following problem: > When I type xroot(3, 8), the answer 2 is showed (as expected) > But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested and my expected > answer isn't shown (that would be -2). That's strange. As long as I'm in approximate mode, I get the expected > -2. whether I use 'XROOT(3,-8)' EVAL or -8 3 XROOT. But in exact mode, I > get '2*((1+i*v/3)/2)' (where v/ is the radical character), and EVAL on > that gives me '1+i*v/3'. Well, if I cube that I do get -8, but it's > certainly not the answer that I would've expected. when on the unit circle you start at an angle of 0 and go counter clockwise. The first 3rd root of -8 that you meet is then '2*((1+i*v/3)/2). (Seen in complex numbers marathon ;-)) Greetings, . ==== > But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested and my expected > answer isn't shown (that would be -2). -2 is the answer with my 48GX. For the first complex result, I must use x^y ==== > the following problem: > When I type xroot(3, 8), the answer 2 is showed (as expected) > But, when I type xroot(3, -8) the complex mode is requested and my expected answer isn't shown > Is there some configuration I could do to solve the problem ? > XROOT always returns only one answer. Try to use SOLVE: XROOT(3,8) <=> SOLVE(X^3=8,X) > ...(that would be -2). Hmm, there are three answers, but there is no X=-2. ;) Piotr Kowalewski. ==== Once I initiate the RECV or KGET commands putting the calculator in server mode how do I get out of it from within a program. Help would be appreciated Martin ==== > Once I initiate the RECV or KGET commands putting the calculator > in server mode how do I get out of it from within a program. Help would be appreciated Neither RECV nor KGET put the calculator in server mode. The RECV command tells the calculator to receive a file (using the Kermit protocol) from another device. The KGET tells the calculator to get a file (again using the Kermit protocol) from another device which is in Kermit server mode. If the other device doesn't send a file (or respond to the KGET), the calculator will eventually (after about 50 seconds) error out with a Timeout error. To put the calculator into server mode, use the SERVER command to put it in Kermit server mode, or in the case of the 49G, XSERV to put it in XModem server mode. While in Kermit server mode, the client device can terminate server mode by sending either a FINISH or LOGOUT command to the calculator. I don't know that there's any way for an XModem client to terminate server mode. So far as terminating server mode from the calculator, the only ways that I know of is to cause an error by pressing the CANCEL (or ATTN, on a 48S series), or by having a control alarm come due. Which calculator are you using? -- James ==== James, My problem is I am communicating with a SDL30 digital level and the only way to prompt the instrument to start reading is to initiate the program .82 CLEAR LM XMIT RECV é and then press the cancel button on the calculator which then starts the machine to read. Without the RECV command for some reason the instrument will not initiate. Could it just have something to do with my IOPAR { 1200 0 0 0 1 2}. Martin > Once I initiate the RECV or KGET commands putting the calculator > in server mode how do I get out of it from within a program. Help would be appreciated Neither RECV nor KGET put the calculator in server mode. The RECV command tells the calculator to receive a file (using the > Kermit protocol) from another device. The KGET tells the calculator to > get a file (again using the Kermit protocol) from another device which > is in Kermit server mode. If the other device doesn't send a file (or > respond to the KGET), the calculator will eventually (after about 50 > seconds) error out with a Timeout error. To put the calculator into server mode, use the SERVER command to put it > in Kermit server mode, or in the case of the 49G, XSERV to put it in > XModem server mode. While in Kermit server mode, the client device can > terminate server mode by sending either a FINISH or LOGOUT command to > the calculator. I don't know that there's any way for an XModem client > to terminate server mode. So far as terminating server mode from the > calculator, the only ways that I know of is to cause an error by > pressing the CANCEL (or ATTN, on a 48S series), or by having a control > alarm come due. Which calculator are you using? > -- > James > ==== > James, My problem is I am communicating with a SDL30 > digital level and the only way to prompt the instrument to > start reading is to initiate the program > .82 CLEAR LM XMIT > RECV > é and then press the cancel button on the calculator which > then starts the machine to read. Without the RECV command > for some reason the instrument will not initiate. Could it > just have something to do with my IOPAR { 1200 0 0 0 1 2}. I'm not familiar with the SDL30 digital level other than that it's made by Sokkia. I certainly don't know which communication parameters and protocols it uses. Do you have any documentation for it? Are you sure that it uses the Kermit file transfer protocol? Am I correct in guessing that you're using a 48G series calculator? I can only guess that the SDL30 is trying to send a file, so it waits for the calculator to finish receiving it, but for some reason a connection isn't established, and then the error packet from the calculator tells it to give up. What happens on the calculator when it gets to the RECV command? Do you get a Connecting message? Do you get Retry #1 through Retry #9 messages? If you don't press CANCEL, Do you eventually get a Timeout error? Does a new variable appear? Is an existing variable overwritten? Certainly IOPAR can cause communication problems. But what the correct values are depends at leat partly on the device that the calculator is connected to. The default IOPAR is { 9600 0 0 0 3 1 }. The first value is the speed in bits per second; 1200, 2400, 4800, and 9600 are your choices. The second value is for parity; your choices are 0 for none, 1 for odd, 2 for even, 3 for mark, and 4 for space. The third value is for receive pacing and the fourth is for transmit pacing. The choices for pacing are 0 for disable or 1 (actually, any non-zero real number) for enable. Pacing is XON/XOFF software flow control, and it's neither needed nor used with Kermit. The fifth parameter is for the packet error detection method; the choices are 1, 2, and 3. If the devices disagree on the method, they should both fall back to using 1, so it *should* work regardless of this. Used for Kermit only. The sixth value is the Kermit ASCII transfer character translation code; the choices are 0, 1, 2, and 3. A proper File header from the sending device will override this, but I suppose that if the header doesn't say otherwise, the current translation mode would be used. Used for Kermit ASCII transfers and print (over wire) commands only. You might also want to look at the system flags. The ones that might be particularly relevant are -33, -35, -36, -39, and maybe -51. James > Martin Once I initiate the RECV or KGET commands putting the calculator > in server mode how do I get out of it from within a program. Help would be appreciated Neither RECV nor KGET put the calculator in server mode. The RECV command tells the calculator to receive a file (using the > Kermit protocol) from another device. The KGET tells the calculator to > get a file (again using the Kermit protocol) from another device which > is in Kermit server mode. If the other device doesn't send a file (or > respond to the KGET), the calculator will eventually (after about 50 > seconds) error out with a Timeout error. To put the calculator into server mode, use the SERVER command to put it > in Kermit server mode, or in the case of the 49G, XSERV to put it in > XModem server mode. While in Kermit server mode, the client device can > terminate server mode by sending either a FINISH or LOGOUT command to > the calculator. I don't know that there's any way for an XModem client > to terminate server mode. So far as terminating server mode from the > calculator, the only ways that I know of is to cause an error by > pressing the CANCEL (or ATTN, on a 48S series), or by having a control > alarm come due. Which calculator are you using? > -- > James ==== James, was looking for in:- .82 CLEAR LM XMIT DROP CR é It is rare, but if the level has a hardware (DTR/DSR) or software (XON/XOFF) flow control setting, turn it off. ==== While coding the library function mentioned in the thread SysRPL and unevaluated algebraic function I stumbled upon a bug in CRLIB When you add a rompointer that contains only a string the rompointer doesn't appear in the menu but you can access it by its name. EXAMPLE $ROMID 1207 $CONFIG 1 $TITLE TEST $VISIBLE {STRING P} $HIDDEN {} P << 2 ^ >> STRING THIS IS A TEST Now build the lib with CRLIB store it in a port and warmstart after 1207 TMENU you see an empty label and then P the empty label beeps if you press it but if you type in STRING you get THIS IS A TEST I seem to remember a 48 libbuilder that could make hidden commands but I don't remember which one -- ==== I am not sure, but if I remember well, we have introduced a mod in the 49 that allowed us to win quite a bit of space in the rom (it's something for managing /displaying menus) and it has this draw back as a side effect. You can 'fix' the problem by embedding your string in a program... > While coding the library function mentioned in the thread > SysRPL and unevaluated algebraic function > I stumbled upon a bug in CRLIB When you add a rompointer that contains only a string > the rompointer doesn't appear in the menu but you can > access it by its name. EXAMPLE $ROMID 1207 > $CONFIG 1 > $TITLE TEST > $VISIBLE {STRING P} > $HIDDEN {} > P << 2 ^ > STRING THIS IS A TEST Now build the lib with CRLIB store it in a port and warmstart after 1207 TMENU you see an empty label and then P the empty label beeps if you press it but if you type in STRING you get THIS IS A TEST I seem to remember a 48 libbuilder that could make hidden commands but I don't remember which one -- > This message was written with 100% recycled electrons Pivo > ==== I am not sure, but if I remember well, we have introduced a mod in the 49 > that allowed us to win quite a bit of space in the rom (it's something for > managing /displaying menus) and it has this draw back as a side effect. Not quite. The last object of a library can't be a string, or if it is a string it will be used to display the title in a choosebox menu. You can put a string anywhere, but the last object can't be one. I had to find a way to display a title in a choosebox menu without breaking the existing format, so that's the solution I've used ==== > The last object of a library can't be a string, or if it is a string it will > be used to display the title in a choosebox menu. Which choose menu do you mean? when I turn of the softmenu flag (-117) I still get softmenus for libraries > You can put a string anywhere, but the last object can't be one. But when it isn't the last object it still doesn't appear in the libmenu, a bug maybe? > I had to find a way to display a title in a choosebox menu without breaking > the existing format, so that's the solution I've used You can put anything after the hash table and nobody will know :-0 I used this as a to make a hackproof library since library extractors do not see this area. I ran a program directly from the library itself by pointing the PC to this area Unfortunately Thomas Rast cracked it in less than a day :-) -- ==== The last object of a library can't be a string, or if it is a string it will > be used to display the title in a choosebox menu. Which choose menu do you mean? > when I turn of the softmenu flag (-117) I still get softmenus for > libraries If you clear the flag -117 (for choose box menu) you will see that each menu as a title. The way a title is defined is by using a string in the library. When creating the menu list, each time a string is found it will be used as the title for the menu. The last string found will be the active menu title. Give it a try, you will see (easy to experiment). The downside, is that strings can't be used in a library directly, you must put them in a program if you want to achieve the same result ==== > If you clear the flag -117 (for choose box menu) you will see that each menu > as a title. The way a title is defined is by using a string in the library. > When creating the menu list, each time a string is found it will be used as > the title for the menu. The last string found will be the active menu title. Are the strings written directly into the library or can messagenumber be used? IÇm just asking because of translation. Greetings Andreas ==== > I am not sure, but if I remember well, we have introduced a mod in the 49 > that allowed us to win quite a bit of space in the rom (it's something for > managing /displaying menus) and it has this draw back as a side effect. I gathered that it must have been a menu 'problem' since the lib was fine > You can 'fix' the problem by embedding your string in a program... Fix? I was planning on using it for some hidden commands! Are only strings affected? I tried some other types but they all worked as they should. -- ==== Well, I think only string are affected... But did you try a program with a TakeOver ? like: :: TakeOver foo and the rest of your program there? ; I am not sure, but if I remember well, we have introduced a mod in the 49 > that allowed us to win quite a bit of space in the rom (it's something for > managing /displaying menus) and it has this draw back as a side effect. I gathered that it must have been a menu 'problem' since the lib was > fine You can 'fix' the problem by embedding your string in a program... Fix? I was planning on using it for some hidden commands! > Are only strings affected? I tried some other types but > they all worked as they should. -- > This message was written with 100% recycled electrons Pivo ==== I would like to column reduce rather than row reduce a matrix to echelon form. MATH MATRIX ROW RCIJ is the row reduction utility that HP supplies on the 48GX. Does anyone know how to look at the HP commands for RCIJ so I could modify it to work with columns? Or if not that how would I program mmstat@erols.com ==== mmstat escribi.97 en el mensaje I would like to column reduce rather than row reduce a matrix to echelon > form. MATH MATRIX ROW RCIJ is the row reduction utility that HP supplies on > the 48GX. Does anyone know how to look at the HP commands for RCIJ so I > could modify it to work with columns? Or if not that how would I program mmstat@erols.com > Could you use TRN, then row reduction, and finally TRN again? I have programmed rcij and ccij commands for working with numeric and symbolic matrices, but they need MK and Erable instaled for working... ==== I am wondering if it is possible to stop this kind of loop while there are not a RS232 reception. 0 STIME . . . DO WHILE KEY NOT REPEAT 1 SRECV DROP2 TICKS DUP ROT - B->R ROT MIN SWAP 'j' INCR DROP END UNTIL 13 == @ c key to stop after a RS232 reception. END I tried this one: 0 STIME . . . IFERR @ for [ON] key. WHILE 1 REPEAT 1 SRECV DROP2 TICKS DUP ROT - B->R ROT MIN SWAP 'j' INCR DROP END THEN END But because of an unpredicted stopping, sometime I lose some data. Tal ==== I am wondering if it is possible to stop > this kind of loop while there are not a > RS232 reception. Sure, as long as you press the C key very quickly after the last byte arrives at the port. ;-) Pressing CANCEL ought to stop it too, but I suppose not usually quite the way that you want. > 0 STIME > . > . > . > DO > WHILE > KEY NOT > REPEAT > 1 SRECV > DROP2 > TICKS DUP ROT - B->R ROT MIN SWAP > 'j' INCR DROP > END > UNTIL > 13 == @ c key to stop after a RS232 reception. > END The problem is that with 0 STIME, 1 SRECV will wait indefinitely for something to arrive. So why not go back to using some other value for STIME, and proceed depending on whether an I/O error (presumably # C02h, Timeout) occurs from SRECV. You could do some additional checking to make sure that the error was really from a timeout. Yes, there will be a slight additional delay before executing TICKS if a byte comes in after SRECV times out and before the program loops back to SRECV again, and with 25.4 for STIME, the delay before the program actually gets around to checking the key is likely to be very noticeable, but perhaps acceptable. You could try the following: 25.4 STIME . . . DO WHILE KEY NOT REPEAT 1 SRECV IF SWAP DROP @ Replace with NIP for 49G THEN TICKS DUP ROT - B->R ROT MIN SWAP 'j' INCR DROP END END UNTIL 13 == @ c key to stop after a RS232 reception. END -- James ==== Hey I saw this on comp.sys.handhelds I thought you guys would get a kick out of it. I have no tried it yet. JIM --------------------------------------------- Waterloo, Canada - September 9, 2002 - Poliplus Software is thrilled to announce the much anticipated release of Formulae 1 for PocketPC (Compaq iPaq series devices). Formulae 1 (F1) is a powerful and easy to use Computer Algebra System designed specially for the teaching and exploration of mathematics. F1 gives the user the ability to see intermediate steps of calculations as well as final answers. The step feature has tremendous pedagogical value that users will come to appreciate over and over again. While there are several different numerical based calculator programs for PDAs, there is nothing really that comes close to the mathematical capabilites of F1. Transform your PDA into the next generation handheld Mathematics system designed to get answers and see steps. If you are a student, this is a must have application. F1's User Interface was custom designed to optimize the use of the small screen area of the device. Most of the screen area is available to view and manipulate math expressions, unlike other calculators where most of the screen is populated by buttons. For a complete list of features (with lots of screen shots) and some more information go to : http://www.poliplus.com/handheldproducts.htm Formulae 1 for PocketPC requires Insignia's Jeode (Java Virtual Machine) which comes on the CD of every Compaq iPaq machine. Jeode allowed Formulae 1 to run unchanged and exactly on Sharp Zaurus we have been getting lots of positive feedback from Sharp Zaurus users. Formulae 1 quickly climbed to the 8th overall bestselling software list at Handango. The excitment has been overwhelming. What follows are some verbatim quotes from users and we hope these testimonials will attest to not only our software capabilities by also Jeode's. ----------------------------------------------------------------- I would like to congratulate to your marvellous program called F1! I couldn't believe when I saw the advertisement on the Zaurus portal. At least I found a real CAS for my Zaurus! I was very happy indeed. And I am very content with F1 - it's a cool piece of software regarding footprint and functionality. Compared to my CAS I'm using on my notebook computer, I must say that F1 solves most of my maths problems. It's most astounding how well F1 performs on the Zaurus. The graphical input method is ingenious; I don't have to bother with complicated text definitions of my formulae like those found in other editors. It's much more like the state-of-the-art CAS Mathematica, if you allow the comparison. I have to express my deepest respect to the programmers. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Formulae 1 is a java based symbolic/numerical math engine. It has a very nice equation editor which can handle matricies, integrals, derivatives, and polynomials. The graphing functionality is primitive but very useful. The program appears to have very few if any bugs. FOr students it is nice to have the step feature. I recommend this to any science or mathematics students learning or having to use basic calculus or linear algebra. An additional nice feature is the help system which is very very useful. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Formulae 1 is the software application that I have been looking for on a handheld device. What is nice about the product other than the rich features is that it is usable on various handhelds because it is written in Java. The feature list is extensive and covers most areas of mathematics found in calculus I and II class material. Features lacking in this version are limits, 3D plotting, linear and non-linear regression. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ==== > Features lacking in this version are limits, 3D plotting, linear and > non-linear regression. It seems there is no limit instructions, which means that the CAS is not that much advanced. I did not see any mention of a programming language. On the Zaurus you can run xcas, it has much more features and is free. And since the device where you run this prog is around 400$ or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some success: for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-). <3D7CED8A.1030605@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> ==== > Features lacking in this version are limits, 3D plotting, linear and > non-linear regression. It seems there is no limit instructions, which means that the CAS > is not that much advanced. I did not see any mention of a programming > language. On the Zaurus you can run xcas, it has much more features > and is free. And since the device where you run this prog is around 400$ > or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some success: > for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-). I prefer having my HP200LX with Derive for DOS... The same software can then be used on my home PC, if I need a little more speed... ;) -- ----- Je viens d'adopter une limace (elle s'appele Chompie), et j'ai trouve des infos sur un site qui n'a pas ete mis a jour depuis des siecles! Meme si l'auteur ne s'y interesse plus, le site garde tout son interet. -+- P in : Guide du Neuneu d'Usenet - L'.90re des limaces m.8edia -+- ==== > I prefer having my HP200LX with Derive for DOS... The same software can > then be used on my home PC, if I need a little more speed... ;) > <3D7CED8A.1030605@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7F75D4.9010404@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> ==== > I prefer having my HP200LX with Derive for DOS... The same software can > then be used on my home PC, if I need a little more speed... ;) > I tested it once, and even if I own and use a lot of HP calcs (including my 9 months-old HP49), I weren't able to do anything useful with xcas... But since it must be my dumbness, I promise I'll read the doc, and try again later ;) In the meantime, I'm still reading the Derive's manual. -- ----- Je crois que le meilleur moyen, c'est une signature qui contient toutes les signatures et de virer les mauvaises avant envoi. -+- Ivan in : Guide du Neuneu d'Usenet : Je signe donc je suis -+- ==== > I tested it once, and even if I own and use a lot of HP calcs (including > my 9 months-old HP49), I weren't able to do anything useful with xcas... But since it must be my dumbness, I promise I'll read the doc, and try > again later ;) > It would be a good idea since xcas is evolving at a fast rate. As explained in a previous post, you can for example read the TI AMS manual and try the same with xcas. There are also some Maple or Mupad instructions that are implemented (but TI compatibility is much better). HP compatibility is currently the syntax and RPN mode, not for the instructions. ==== > And since the device where you run this prog is around 400$ > or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some success: > for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-). Bernard, It seems to me that you are neglecting people who already have that $400 device. I am a huge fan of the 48/49 (and sysRPL programming) but I also have an Ipaq 3835, and so I just purchased Formulae 1. This is not an indication that I don't like the CAS in the 49, simply the reality that the 49 is now an obsolete device, no longer produced or supported. Reality dictates that I move on and I find that when I want to pack one device with me, it's the Ipaq. It's current, supported, has an ever-increasing software base and allows me do do a multitude of tasks. Simon ==== > It seems to me that you are neglecting people who already have that > $400 device. I am a huge fan of the 48/49 (and sysRPL programming) but > I also have an Ipaq 3835, and so I just purchased Formulae 1. Most of xcas interface and development has been done thinking about handheld users, and you should know that Prof. Parisse uses ipaq with Familiar distro to test (so do I). > This is not an indication that I don't like the CAS in the 49, simply > the reality that the 49 is now an obsolete device, no longer produced > or supported. Reality dictates that I move on and I find that when I > want to pack one device with me, it's the Ipaq. It's current, > supported, has an ever-increasing software base and allows me do do a > multitude of tasks. I am agree with the idea, but not with the cost of such device.. that's the reason I have started a project to create a low cost gnu/linux platform. It is already in early stages. J.Manrique Users Club from Gij.97n #1077 HPCC Member ==== And since the device where you run this prog is around 400$ > or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some success: > for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-). Bernard, It seems to me that you are neglecting people who already have that > $400 device. I am a huge fan of the 48/49 (and sysRPL programming) but > I also have an Ipaq 3835, and so I just purchased Formulae 1. > This is not an indication that I don't like the CAS in the 49, simply > the reality that the 49 is now an obsolete device, no longer produced > or supported. Reality dictates that I move on and I find that when I > want to pack one device with me, it's the Ipaq. It's current, > supported, has an ever-increasing software base and allows me do do a > multitude of tasks. Simon ==== >>And since the device where you run this prog is around 400$ >>or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some success: >>for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-). > Bernard, It seems to me that you are neglecting people who already have that > $400 device. I am a huge fan of the 48/49 (and sysRPL programming) but > I also have an Ipaq 3835, and so I just purchased Formulae 1. > There is a misunderstanding here: I develop and run xcas on my ipaq. So you can't say I'm neglecting the ipaq, to the contrary. I did choose to develop a native application, which I think is mandatory when you want to solve real-world problem. This means that xcas is not a java, but a true C++ application. It is compiled with but it does not ship a complete ANSI-C++ compiler). Either replace wince or install it on a flashcard. Then you will need around 1.5M of flash to store the app. More info http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/giac.html xcas is not completely ready for prime-time release but it has today around 95% of the HP49 and TI89 functionnality. If you have a TI-Basic program, you can run it with xcas except if it uses some of the pixel graphic or stats instructions (see below). If you prefer RPN, just check the mode. Or you can program it using C like syntax. Other features are interactive debugger, dynamic geometry, pretty-print, on-line help etc. And since it /* TI89 compatibility Notes Use maple_mode(3) in your config file (~/.xcasrc or xcas.rc) or begin your session with cas configuration (or type maple_mode(3)) 1/ Instructions implemented Algebra: all Calculus: all except product Strings: all Graphics: pixel instructions are not implemented except PxlOn/PxlOff And/Xor/Pixel tests are not implemented Zoom instructions not implemented except ZoomSto/ZoomRcl BldData/RclGDB/StoGDB not implemented Graph currently points to drawFunc Lists: all, note that SortA/SortD are implemented for 1 arg only Maths: all except conversions and units Matrices: all except statistics. LU/QR work with numeric matrices and tolerance argument is ignored Program: all except mode handling, units, getKeys, the Custom and Toolbar instructions Lock/Unlock Stats: !, rand, RandSeed, nCr, nPr 2/ Be sure to use correct case. archive (native) is not like Archive (TI) Conversion of special char (ASCII code >128) conversion sign translated to to Store sign: => Different: != or <>, Greater or equal: >=, Lower or equal: <= i=sqrt(-1): use the i button of xcas transpose sign not translated (use transpose()) */ ==== > >>And since the device where you run this prog is around 400$ >>or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some success: >>for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-). > Bernard, It seems to me that you are neglecting people who already have that > $400 device. I am a huge fan of the 48/49 (and sysRPL programming) but > I also have an Ipaq 3835, and so I just purchased Formulae 1. > There is a misunderstanding here: I develop and run xcas on my ipaq. So > you can't say I'm neglecting the ipaq, to the contrary. I did choose > to develop a native application, which I think is mandatory > when you want to solve real-world problem. This means that xcas > is not a java, but a true C++ application. This is completely irrelevant for users. The software is pretty fast and in the case of Zaurus, the user doesn't even know it is running Java. As long as the software runs fast enough you could as well have programmed it in logo :) > It is compiled with > but it does not ship a complete ANSI-C++ compiler). > Either replace wince or install it on a flashcard. Then you will > need around 1.5M of flash to store the app. > More info > http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/giac.html > xcas is not completely ready for prime-time release but it has > today around 95% of the HP49 and TI89 functionnality. If you have > a TI-Basic program, you can run it with xcas except if it uses > some of the pixel graphic or stats instructions (see below). > If you prefer RPN, just check the mode. Or you can program > it using C like syntax. Other features are interactive debugger, > dynamic geometry, pretty-print, on-line help etc. And since it /* TI89 compatibility Notes > Use maple_mode(3) in your config file (~/.xcasrc or xcas.rc) or > begin your session with cas configuration (or type maple_mode(3)) 1/ Instructions implemented > Algebra: all > Calculus: all except product > Strings: all > Graphics: pixel instructions are not implemented except PxlOn/PxlOff > And/Xor/Pixel tests are not implemented > Zoom instructions not implemented except ZoomSto/ZoomRcl > BldData/RclGDB/StoGDB not implemented > Graph currently points to drawFunc > Lists: all, note that SortA/SortD are implemented for 1 arg only > Maths: all except conversions and units > Matrices: all except statistics. > LU/QR work with numeric matrices and tolerance argument is ignored > Program: all except > mode handling, units, > getKeys, the Custom and Toolbar instructions > Lock/Unlock > Stats: !, rand, RandSeed, nCr, nPr 2/ Be sure to use correct case. archive (native) is not like > Archive (TI) > Conversion of special char (ASCII code >128) > conversion sign translated to to > Store sign: = Different: != or <>, Greater or equal: >=, Lower or equal: <= > i=sqrt(-1): use the i button of xcas > transpose sign not translated (use transpose()) > */ ==== This is completely irrelevant for users. The software is pretty fast > and in the case of Zaurus, the user doesn't even know it is running > Java. As long as the software runs fast enough you could as well > have programmed it in logo :) > I don't think users want to have one program when for example a 10* faster with the same capabilities exists (I don't know the speed decrease when you use java instead of C++ but I would guess some factor around 10). Then I'm curious what you describe as fast enough. Could you give us some benchmarks, like int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) invert a 15x15 matrix with random coefficients in -99..99 factor(x^100+1) ==== > This is completely irrelevant for users. The software is pretty fast > and in the case of Zaurus, the user doesn't even know it is running > Java. As long as the software runs fast enough you could as well > have programmed it in logo :) > I don't think users want to have one program when for example a 10* > faster with the same capabilities exists (I don't know the speed If you are solving a math problem that takes 1 second to solve, a program that solves the same in 100 milliseconds is irrelevant. 1 second is close enough to being instantaneous. > decrease when you use java instead of C++ but I would guess some > factor around 10). Jeode compiles the Java code on demand and most operations are almost instantaneous. > Then I'm curious what you describe as fast enough. Could you give > us some benchmarks, like > int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) > invert a 15x15 matrix with random coefficients in -99..99 > factor(x^100+1) Could you provide the steps xcas provides when solving the following problems step by step : int(x^2*exp(2*x),x) int(ln(x^2+a^2),x) int((-4*x-88)/(x^2+2*x+5),x) solve(x+2*abs(x)>12,x) solve(sqrt(ln(x))=ln(sqrt(x)),x) sin(acos(sqrt(5)/5)) I want to see the steps !!! not just the final answer. Once again, our intended audience is different and what you seem interested in doing is not what we view our customers doing. ==== You said that the speed was not important to the user where I disagree and I asked about some benchmarks, I note that you don't answer which is in itself an answer. I never said that steb by step was not important, to the contrary, I just did not have time to implement it right now. But don't worry it will be added. And it's not only feasible but rather easy, on the other side, if you can not solve the kind of problems I gave, it will be much harder for you to implement. ==== You said that the speed was not important to the user where > I disagree and I asked about some benchmarks, I note that > you don't answer which is in itself an answer. You haven't answered my questions either. > I never said that steb by step was not important, to the contrary, > I just did not have time to implement it right now. But don't > worry it will be added. And it's not only feasible but rather > easy, Really... Let me know when you have properly implemented step-by-step integration for example and let's compare implementations !!! > on the other side, if you can not solve the kind of problems > I gave, it will be much harder for you to implement. Yeah right, don't forget I have access to lots of source code including YOURS !!! Not that I would use any since everything we do must fit nicely with the step-by-step framework (i.e. the steps must be the same as the ones students would produce by hand. Steps that are illustrated in typical high school/college/university textbooks. ==== Yeah right, don't forget I have access to lots of source > code including YOURS !!! Not that I would use any since > everything we do must fit nicely with the step-by-step > framework (i.e. the steps must be the same as the ones > students would produce by hand. Steps that are illustrated > in typical high school/college/university textbooks. You can not use my source unless you release your application under the GPL. You can use the same algorithms as I use of course. The fact that almost every CAS use algorithms that are not teached shows that if you refuse to use them, your CAS will only remain a pedagogical tool. I claim that it is possible to have both. ==== Features lacking in this version are limits, 3D plotting, linear and > non-linear regression. It seems there is no limit instructions, which means that the CAS > is not that much advanced. I did not see any mention of a programming > language. On the Zaurus you can run xcas, it has much more features > and is free. And since the device where you run this prog is around 400$ > or more, I wonder how a 30$ basic CAS could have some success: > for that price you can have both a TI89 and a HP49:-). So lack of limits, to you, means not advanced... interesting. Limits are trivial to implement !!! I beleive the press release was for PocketPC but you just have to promote your own offering for the Zaurus... interesting. I'd love to see what Formulae 1 users have to say about your system once they have access to our simple to use and yet uniquely powerful and automatic CAS. ==== So lack of limits, to you, means not advanced... interesting. Of course. Limits are used in many areas like derivation (theory) or integration with bounds and is teached during highschool, if your system does not solve limit then it is not of much use compared e.g. to the TI89 or HP49/40. > Limits are trivial to implement !!! > That shows you didn't really try to implement them, maybe you just think of L'Hopital's rule, but a correct limit implementation is much more complex than that. xcas can solve the following limits (using the mrv algorithm which is unfortunately not implemented on the 49) limit( exp(x)*(exp(1/x-exp(-x))-exp(1/x)), x=+infinity); limit( exp(x)*(exp(1/x+exp(-x)+exp(-x^2))-exp(1/x-exp(-exp(x)))), x=+infinity); limit( exp(exp(x-exp(-x))/(1-1/x))-exp(exp(x)), x=+infinity); limit( exp(exp(exp(x)/(1-1/x)))-exp(exp(exp(x)/(1-1/x-ln(x)^(-ln(x))))), x=+infinity); limit( exp(exp(exp(x+exp(-x))))/exp(exp(exp(x))), x=+infinity); limit(exp(exp(exp(x)))/exp(exp(exp(x-exp(-x)))),x=+infinity); limit(exp(exp(exp(x)))/exp(exp(exp(x-exp(-exp(exp(x)))))),x=+infinity); limit(exp(exp(x))/exp(exp(x-exp(-exp(exp(x))))),x=+infinity); limit(x*ln(x)*ln(x*exp(x)-x^2)^2/ln(ln(x^2+2*exp(exp(3*x^3*ln(x))))),x=+infi nity); limit((exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/x,x=+infinity); limit((3^x+5^x)^(1/x),x=+infinity); limit(x/ln(x^(ln(x)^(ln(2)/ln(x)))),x=+infinity); limit(exp(exp(2*ln(x^5+x)*ln(ln(x))))/exp(exp(10*ln(x)*ln(ln(x)))),x=+infini ty); limit((exp(4*x*exp(-x)/(1/exp(x)+1/exp(2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/exp(x)^4,x=+in finity); limit(exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))/exp(x),x=+infinity); limit( exp(exp(-x/(1+exp(-x))))*exp(-x/(1+exp(-x/(1+exp(-x)))))*exp(exp(-x+exp(-x/( 1+exp(-x)))))/exp(-x/(1+exp(-x)))^2-exp(x)+x, x=+infinity); limit( (ln(ln(x)+ln(ln(x)))-ln(ln(x)))*ln(x)/ln(ln(x)+ln(ln(ln(x)))), x=+infinity); limit(exp(ln(ln(x+exp(ln(x)*ln(ln(x)))))/ln(ln(ln(exp(x)+x+ln(x))))),x=+infi nity); limit(exp(x)*(sin(1/x+exp(-x))-sin(1/x+exp(-x^2))),x=+infinity); limit(exp(exp(x))*(exp(sin(1/x+exp(-exp(x))))-exp(sin(1/x))),x=+infinity); limit( (exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/x,x=+infinity); limit( ln(ln(x*exp(x*exp(x))+1))-exp(exp(ln(ln(x))+1/x)), x=+infinity); limit(sqrt(x+sqrt(x))-sqrt(x),x=+infinity); limit(sqrt(x+sqrt(x+sqrt(x)))-sqrt(x+sqrt(x)),x=+infinity); limit(4/9*exp(exp(5/2*x^(-5/7)+21/8*x^(6/11)+2*x^(-8)+54/17*x^(49/45)))^8/ln (ln(-ln(4/3*x^(-5/14))))^(7/6),x=+infinity); limit(ln(x)^2*exp(sqrt(ln(x))*ln(ln(x))^2*exp(sqrt(ln(ln(x)))*ln(ln(ln(x)))^ 3))/sqrt(x),x=+infinity); > I beleive the press release was for PocketPC but you just > have to promote your own offering for the Zaurus... interesting. > Form your post < I'd love to see what Formulae 1 users have to say about your > system once they have access to our simple to use and yet > uniquely powerful and automatic CAS. > Yes, please tell your customers about xcas if they have a They might discover that maybe the don't have step by step now but in exchange they have a much more complete CAS with dynamic geometry, programmation, RPN mode and soon able to run many TI89/92 Basic programs. ==== from which this material was excerpted.>> <If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement >them. That's for sure. That is good to heard. Do not ignore the ``techo-lords.'' It is very likely that they will be part of your customer base also. I looked at your WWW accessible material. Unfortunately for me, I neither have a platform on which to execute it nor have a way of ordering if I did own an appropriate platform. > But keep in mind that we favour ease of use >and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the >system instead of learning math. The TI-89 is hard to use and requires much system learning just because it was ``dumbed down'' for the ``general public'' and the teaching community. I stipulate that there are many excellent teachers. Unfortunately, the excellent teachers can work with even bad tools or a log (large wooden object that is the immediate result of harvesting trees). Therefore, TI designed the machine for the remaining teachers that need support systems to be able to teach. TI recognizes that fact and provides prepared syllabi, lesson plans, lessons, presentation material, special manuals for the equipment that explain what problems with the machine the students may encounter and how to solve those problem on the machine. (I wish that I had one of those manuals---it has to be better than the manual that came with the machine.) I learned calculus, linear algebra and differential equations (at the college level) on the HP-48 with B. Parisse's Erable. It could assist solving the problems. The TI-89 was almost useless. Follow the Einstein adage: make it as simple as possible; but no simpler. I opine that HP did and TI did not. We are going after the general >public and not the technical-lords ;) ``The poor we will have with us always.'' For much of the masses, a ``four function immediate operation calculator'' (which can be bought for US$2) presents a challenge. > ==== > TI recognizes that fact and provides prepared syllabi, > lesson plans, lessons, presentation material, special manuals > for the equipment that explain what problems with the machine > the students may encounter and how to solve those problem on the > machine. provides means sells in this case. I am told my my math professor (Arizona State Univ) that is the primary reason the department has stopped recommending TI calculators, that they have turned documentation into more of a profit center than the hardware itself. -- ==== X > That shows you didn't really try to implement them, maybe > you just think of L'Hopital's rule, but a correct limit > implementation is much more complex than that. xcas can > solve the following limits (using the mrv algorithm > which is unfortunately not implemented on the 49) X Well then you probably can program that to the 1.19-7 I'm sure JYA will help you. Will you do it? ==== > X > Well then you probably can program that to the 1.19-7 > I'm sure JYA will help you. Will you do it? I don't have time to program mrv on the 49. Programming xcas takes too much time and since there is no hope of having more memory and speed on the 49... ==== > So lack of limits, to you, means not advanced... interesting. Of course. Limits are used in many areas like derivation (theory) > or integration with bounds and is teached during highschool, if > your system does not solve limit then it is not of much use compared > e.g. to the TI89 or HP49/40. Non-sense. There is no colleration between a system having limits and being advanced. Having limits does not make a system advanced and vice-versa, as your original comment suggested. Limits are trivial to implement !!! > That shows you didn't really try to implement them, maybe > you just think of L'Hopital's rule, but a correct limit > implementation is much more complex than that. xcas can > solve the following limits (using the mrv algorithm > which is unfortunately not implemented on the 49) > limit( exp(x)*(exp(1/x-exp(-x))-exp(1/x)), x=+infinity); > limit( exp(x)*(exp(1/x+exp(-x)+exp(-x^2))-exp(1/x-exp(-exp(x)))), > x=+infinity); > limit( exp(exp(x-exp(-x))/(1-1/x))-exp(exp(x)), x=+infinity); > limit( exp(exp(exp(x)/(1-1/x)))-exp(exp(exp(x)/(1-1/x-ln(x)^(-ln(x))))), > x=+infinity); > limit( exp(exp(exp(x+exp(-x))))/exp(exp(exp(x))), x=+infinity); > limit(exp(exp(exp(x)))/exp(exp(exp(x-exp(-x)))),x=+infinity); > limit(exp(exp(exp(x)))/exp(exp(exp(x-exp(-exp(exp(x)))))),x=+infinity); > limit(exp(exp(x))/exp(exp(x-exp(-exp(exp(x))))),x=+infinity); > limit(x*ln(x)*ln(x*exp(x)-x^2)^2/ln(ln(x^2+2*exp(exp(3*x^3*ln(x))))),x=+infi n ity); > limit((exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/x,x=+infinity); > limit((3^x+5^x)^(1/x),x=+infinity); > limit(x/ln(x^(ln(x)^(ln(2)/ln(x)))),x=+infinity); > limit(exp(exp(2*ln(x^5+x)*ln(ln(x))))/exp(exp(10*ln(x)*ln(ln(x)))),x=+infini t y); > limit((exp(4*x*exp(-x)/(1/exp(x)+1/exp(2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/exp(x)^4,x=+in f inity); > limit(exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))/exp(x),x=+infinity); > limit( > exp(exp(-x/(1+exp(-x))))*exp(-x/(1+exp(-x/(1+exp(-x)))))*exp(exp(-x+exp(-x/( 1 +exp(-x)))))/exp(-x/(1+exp(-x)))^2-exp(x)+x, > x=+infinity); > limit( (ln(ln(x)+ln(ln(x)))-ln(ln(x)))*ln(x)/ln(ln(x)+ln(ln(ln(x)))), > x=+infinity); > limit(exp(ln(ln(x+exp(ln(x)*ln(ln(x)))))/ln(ln(ln(exp(x)+x+ln(x))))),x=+infi n ity); > limit(exp(x)*(sin(1/x+exp(-x))-sin(1/x+exp(-x^2))),x=+infinity); > limit(exp(exp(x))*(exp(sin(1/x+exp(-exp(x))))-exp(sin(1/x))),x=+infinity); > limit( (exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/x,x=+infinity); > limit( ln(ln(x*exp(x*exp(x))+1))-exp(exp(ln(ln(x))+1/x)), x=+infinity); > limit(sqrt(x+sqrt(x))-sqrt(x),x=+infinity); > limit(sqrt(x+sqrt(x+sqrt(x)))-sqrt(x+sqrt(x)),x=+infinity); > limit(4/9*exp(exp(5/2*x^(-5/7)+21/8*x^(6/11)+2*x^(-8)+54/17*x^(49/45)))^8/ln ( ln(-ln(4/3*x^(-5/14))))^(7/6),x=+infinity); > limit(ln(x)^2*exp(sqrt(ln(x))*ln(ln(x))^2*exp(sqrt(ln(ln(x)))*ln(ln(ln(x)))^ 3 ))/sqrt(x),x=+infinity); Wrong again. we have implemented limits on the previous WinCE version but took it out of this initial Zaurus/PocketPC release. I beleive the press release was for PocketPC but you just > have to promote your own offering for the Zaurus... interesting. > Form your post > < of the Zaurus, where xcas runs also (once you install X11). > And what you call an offering > is not a $$-software, xcas is GPL-ed soft, I won't gain any money, > it's just I don't want people owning an HP to spend 30$ without knowing > there are more powerful free alternatives. Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not advanced) without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits and then you went already to praise your own system. I won't bother trashing your program but I am sure our software does a lot of things your software doesn't and vice-versa. Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder. When it comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved, Formulae 1 is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there. Definitively worth $30. Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima which is also free and also runs on Zaurus. Now let's see how powerful xcas does against Maxima. I'd love to see what Formulae 1 users have to say about your > system once they have access to our simple to use and yet > uniquely powerful and automatic CAS. > Yes, please tell your customers about xcas if they have a > They might discover that maybe the don't have step by step now > but in exchange they have a much more complete CAS with dynamic > geometry, programmation, RPN mode and soon able to run many TI89/92 > Basic programs. If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement them. That's for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease of use and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the system instead of learning math. We are going after the general public and not the technical-lords ;) ==== > Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not advanced) Studying Management Engineering I have learned that cost are never irrelevant.. > without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits and then > you went already to praise your own system. I won't bother trashing It would be better saying that he is giving info about alternatives.. Instead of trashing his arguments you should try his system and compares it to yours. > your program but I am sure our software does a lot of things your > software doesn't and vice-versa. Yes, it always happens.. but being open software lacks could be completed by anyone, not waiting for a company decission to make it. > Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder. When it > comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved, Formulae 1 > is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there. Definitively > worth $30. I am sure that it worth $30, it is your work. > Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima which is also > free and also runs on Zaurus. Now let's see how powerful xcas does > against Maxima. Yes, let's see.. have you done it? Now, we have 3 CAS running in handhelds, two open source and free, and one propietary.. and each using: - clisp (Maxima) - c++ (Giac/Xcas) - java (Formulae 1) Oops.. sorry, I forget Yacas.. it runs in Familiar distro too and it is c++ system too.. It would be nice a comparasion like to one in sci.math.symbolic about CAS systems in PC. > If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement > them. That's for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease of use > and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the > system instead of learning math. We are going after the general > public and not the technical-lords ;) I wouldn't call xcas a technical-lords apps, at least not more than a hp calculator. Of course, being a technical-lord it could be possible to make a lot of things with it without waiting for propietary company update, just read the source and modify it to fit your needs.. but this is for technical-lords ;) J.Manrique Users Club from Gij.97n #1077 HPCC Member ==== Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not advanced) Studying Management Engineering I have learned that cost are never > irrelevant.. Just irrelevant to the conversation of something being crap or not. > without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits and then > you went already to praise your own system. I won't bother trashing It would be better saying that he is giving info about alternatives.. > Instead of trashing his arguments you should try his system and > compares it to yours. It should be the other way around (he should try our system and compare with his) because he was the one commenting on our system. I have no interest comparing systems or commenting on his system. > your program but I am sure our software does a lot of things your > software doesn't and vice-versa. Yes, it always happens.. but being open software lacks could be > completed by anyone, not waiting for a company decission to make it. This is off topic. There are lots of benefits and problems with each model (open-source and proprietaty) and the discussion should go somewhere else. > Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder. When it > comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved, Formulae 1 > is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there. Definitively > worth $30. I am sure that it worth $30, it is your work. Not only that, it does useful things for math/science/engineering students that other similar programs can not do and that functionality is definitively worth #30. > Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima which is also > free and also runs on Zaurus. Now let's see how powerful xcas does > against Maxima. Yes, let's see.. have you done it? Now, we have 3 CAS running in > handhelds, two open source and free, and one propietary.. and each > using: > - clisp (Maxima) > - c++ (Giac/Xcas) > - java (Formulae 1) Oops.. sorry, I forget Yacas.. it runs in Familiar distro too and it > is c++ system too.. It would be nice a comparasion like to one in sci.math.symbolic about > CAS systems in PC. It would be nice. I won't be doing the comparison that's for sure. Whoever does it, just make sure to compare apples to apples. On the PC, there are several open source and free systems, yet commercial and proprietary Maple and Mathematica are doing pretty well. If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement > them. That's for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease of use > and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the > system instead of learning math. We are going after the general > public and not the technical-lords ;) I wouldn't call xcas a technical-lords apps, at least not more than a > hp calculator. Of course, being a technical-lord it could be possible > to make a lot of things with it without waiting for propietary company > update, just read the source and modify it to fit your needs.. but > this is for technical-lords ;) This is all good, just not the market we are going after. > J.Manrique > Users Club from Gij.97n > #1077 HPCC Member ==== > It should be the other way around (he should try our system and > compare with his) because he was the one commenting on our system. > I have no interest comparing systems or commenting on his system. > No, it is the right way because you can try xcas without spending any $. I must pay 30$ to try your system. Of course you have no interest comparing publicly systems, it's much easier. > It would be nice. I won't be doing the comparison that's for sure. Whoever > does it, just make sure to compare apples to apples. On the PC, there are several open source and free systems, yet commercial > and proprietary Maple and Mathematica are doing pretty well. > I would certainly not describe maple or mathematica as not that advanced CAS. ==== It should be the other way around (he should try our system and > compare with his) because he was the one commenting on our system. > I have no interest comparing systems or commenting on his system. > No, it is the right way because you can try xcas without spending > any $. I must pay 30$ to try your system. So you are telling me that because you are cheap, it is ok for you to comment on our system (and compare it to yours) without actually trying it. and futhermore, because your system is free, I should spend time and compare it to Formulae 1 for you. You don't have anything final. Why don't you just come up with a final end user product, release it and then show rave reviews from users. > Of course you have no interest comparing publicly systems, it's > much easier. It would be nice. I won't be doing the comparison that's for sure. Whoever > does it, just make sure to compare apples to apples. On the PC, there are several open source and free systems, yet commercial > and proprietary Maple and Mathematica are doing pretty well. > I would certainly not describe maple or mathematica as not that > advanced CAS. ==== > So you are telling me that because you are cheap, it is ok for > you to comment on our system (and compare it to yours) without > actually trying it. and futhermore, because your system is free, > I should spend time and compare it to Formulae 1 for you. > I can comment your system by the specs that are publicly available. It is clear that you lack some fundemental instructions and it seems also that you do not provide a programming language and I don't remember seeing a geometry application. > You don't have anything final. Why don't you just come up with > a final end user product, release it and then show rave reviews > from users. > xcas is perfectly usable. It has a complete French documentation. It's not a commercial soft, I don't need to make a formal release. It has always worked that way with Erable for the 48. The main current advantage of formulae1 is that people can use it on their zaurus without installing X, and you did more advertising so that people know about it. .88 part des remontrances. Vous r.8epondez de bonne foi ou vous passez ! Ce que vous pensez n'a pas d'int.8er.90t, r.8epondez-y seulement... -+- Joe in: Guide du Neuneu d'Usenet - Ze veux z.8e z.8exige -+- ==== Why is this thread turning into flamewar? In American-English it's called: ego. GS ==== Wrong again. we have implemented limits on the previous WinCE version > but took it out of this initial Zaurus/PocketPC release. > I really wonder why you decided to remove the limit instruction if you had it on wince. Is it a commercial decision to propose buyers of the first version another version and get some $? Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not advanced) > without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits and then > you went already to praise your own system. I won't bother trashing > your program but I am sure our software does a lot of things your > software doesn't and vice-versa. > Not that advanced does not mean crap. Of course there are some features that xcas does not do currently (like solve with abs, sqrt and inequalities or step-by-step), but that will be much easier to fix than it will be for formulae1 if you want to be on par with xcas features. > Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder. When it > comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved, Formulae 1 > is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there. Definitively > worth $30. > I don't contest it might be good for learning maths. I contest your denomination of advanced and pointed to xcas which has more advanced CAS features. > Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima which is also > free and also runs on Zaurus. Now let's see how powerful xcas does > against Maxima. > Yes, let's compare with maxima. Maxima sure has some features xcas does not have, because it's a 30 years old program. But it has been almost idle during 20 years, hence does not use any of the advanced algorithms found in CAS research during 20 years. For example, maxima uses l'Hopital rules and series expansion only to solve limit, you can check the message board and see that it fails on some not so complicated exemples. Who will implement mrv? Did you have a look at maxima source code to see how bright the future of maxima is? > If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement > them. That's for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease of use > and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the > system instead of learning math. We are going after the general > public and not the technical-lords ;) > Are you sure you are not offering a crippled CAS with an emphasis on some points of the highschool curriculum (in the US)? ==== > Wrong again. we have implemented limits on the previous WinCE version > but took it out of this initial Zaurus/PocketPC release. > I really wonder why you decided to remove the limit instruction > if you had it on wince. Is it a commercial decision to propose > buyers of the first version another version and get some $? This was already covered on a previous post. Check it out, I won't bother repeating it here. Our policy is to provide free upgrades for minor version numbers (1.0.1, 1.2, 1.3) and only charge a small upgrade fee for major version numbers (2.0, 3.0, etc). The decision had nothing to do with trying to rip off current customers. Our next feature release (aside from bug fixes) will be in 4/5 months and it will be for a minor version. > Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not advanced) > without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits and then > you went already to praise your own system. I won't bother trashing > your program but I am sure our software does a lot of things your > software doesn't and vice-versa. > Not that advanced does not mean crap. Of course there are some > features that xcas does not do currently (like solve with abs, > sqrt and inequalities or step-by-step), but that will be much Ease or not, every highschool textbook completely covers solving simple equations with sqrt, abs and sometimes even inequalities so we consider this a MUST have feature for high schools and above. A solve without these is not a very complete solve. The fact IS for me and you (CAS implementors) everything math related is EASY to implement !!! > easier to fix than it will be for formulae1 if you want to be on > par with xcas features. We are not competing with xcas. Our steps are phenomenal and will continue to get better and you simpy don't have that functionality in xcas since you are not going after the same people we are. > Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder. When it > comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved, Formulae 1 > is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there. Definitively > worth $30. > I don't contest it might be good for learning maths. I contest your > denomination of advanced and pointed to xcas which has more advanced > CAS features. Not when it comes to step-by-step features. We are very advanced here. For example in Formulae 1 you can type : int(1/(x-sqrt(x)),x) and press step to get intVarSub(integral, u=sqrt(x)) which basically says that this integral is solved by the substitution u=sqrt(x). You can continue to press step to see all of other techniques it used to solve this integrals. You just don't get that from any other CAS (with the exception of Mathpert). When learning integration, it is nice to see which one of the taught integration techniques is used to solve a particular integral; and that is what we provide to users. Pretty advanced functionality, if it was easy you would have already implemented in xcas. > Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima which is also > free and also runs on Zaurus. Now let's see how powerful xcas does > against Maxima. > Yes, let's compare with maxima. Maxima sure has some features xcas > does not have, because it's a 30 years old program. But it has been > almost idle during 20 years, hence does not use any of the advanced > algorithms found in CAS research during 20 years. For example, maxima > uses l'Hopital rules and series expansion only to solve limit, you > can check the message board and see that it fails on some not so > complicated exemples. Who will implement mrv? Did you have a look > at maxima source code to see how bright the future of maxima is? This is not a comparison, this is just your excuse not to compare it when it comes to solving problems in one step. Why don't you grab a copy of Webster's Tests and see how xcas does against Maxima and the other one-shot big CASs. Now that's a comparison of math capabilities. xcas implements mrv, maxima doesn't. What about everything else Maxima implements that xcas doesn't. > If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement > them. That's for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease of use > and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the > system instead of learning math. We are going after the general > public and not the technical-lords ;) > Are you sure you are not offering a crippled CAS with an emphasis > on some points of the highschool curriculum (in the US)? Cripped CAS ? You just admitted that your CAS is not able to solve simple high school equations with abs and sqrt. Now that is a cripped solve command. Oh now our CAS is crippled because of the US curriculum. This is getting pathetic. Math is math, we have more user's of the Zaurus version in Europe than in the US. and most of the enthusiasm is from Europe. Notice that we left user's comments verbatim (non edited). Europeans are loving Formulae 1 too.