B14 ==== from which this material was excerpted.>> <If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement >them. That's for sure. That is good to heard. Do not ignore the ``techo-lords.'' It is very likely that they will be part of your customer base also. I looked at your WWW accessible material. Unfortunately for me, I neither have a platform on which to execute it nor have a way of ordering if I did own an appropriate platform. > But keep in mind that we favour ease of use >and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the >system instead of learning math. The TI-89 is hard to use and requires much system learning just because it was ``dumbed down'' for the ``general public'' and the teaching community. I stipulate that there are many excellent teachers. Unfortunately, the excellent teachers can work with even bad tools or a log (large wooden object that is the immediate result of harvesting trees). Therefore, TI designed the machine for the remaining teachers that need support systems to be able to teach. TI recognizes that fact and provides prepared syllabi, lesson plans, lessons, presentation material, special manuals for the equipment that explain what problems with the machine the students may encounter and how to solve those problem on the machine. (I wish that I had one of those manuals---it has to be better than the manual that came with the machine.) I learned calculus, linear algebra and differential equations (at the college level) on the HP-48 with B. Parisse's Erable. It could assist solving the problems. The TI-89 was almost useless. Follow the Einstein adage: make it as simple as possible; but no simpler. I opine that HP did and TI did not. We are going after the general >public and not the technical-lords ;) ``The poor we will have with us always.'' For much of the masses, a ``four function immediate operation calculator'' (which can be bought for US$2) presents a challenge. >Carlos. ==== > TI recognizes that fact and provides prepared syllabi, > lesson plans, lessons, presentation material, special manuals > for the equipment that explain what problems with the machine > the students may encounter and how to solve those problem on the > machine. provides means sells in this case. I am told my my math professor (Arizona State Univ) that is the primary reason the department has stopped recommending TI calculators, that they have turned documentation into more of a profit center than the hardware itself. -- ==== X > That shows you didn't really try to implement them, maybe > you just think of L'Hopital's rule, but a correct limit > implementation is much more complex than that. xcas can > solve the following limits (using the mrv algorithm > which is unfortunately not implemented on the 49) X Well then you probably can program that to the 1.19-7 I'm sure JYA will help you. Will you do it? ==== > X > Well then you probably can program that to the 1.19-7 > I'm sure JYA will help you. Will you do it? I don't have time to program mrv on the 49. Programming xcas takes too much time and since there is no hope of having more memory and speed on the 49... ==== > So lack of limits, to you, means not advanced... interesting. > > Of course. Limits are used in many areas like derivation (theory) > or integration with bounds and is teached during highschool, if > your system does not solve limit then it is not of much use compared > e.g. to the TI89 or HP49/40. Non-sense. There is no colleration between a system having limits and being advanced. Having limits does not make a system advanced and vice-versa, as your original comment suggested. > > Limits are trivial to implement !!! > That shows you didn't really try to implement them, maybe > you just think of L'Hopital's rule, but a correct limit > implementation is much more complex than that. xcas can > solve the following limits (using the mrv algorithm > which is unfortunately not implemented on the 49) > limit( exp(x)*(exp(1/x-exp(-x))-exp(1/x)), x=+infinity); > limit( exp(x)*(exp(1/x+exp(-x)+exp(-x^2))-exp(1/x-exp(-exp(x)))), > x=+infinity); > limit( exp(exp(x-exp(-x))/(1-1/x))-exp(exp(x)), x=+infinity); > limit( exp(exp(exp(x)/(1-1/x)))-exp(exp(exp(x)/(1-1/x-ln(x)^(-ln(x))))), > x=+infinity); > limit( exp(exp(exp(x+exp(-x))))/exp(exp(exp(x))), x=+infinity); > limit(exp(exp(exp(x)))/exp(exp(exp(x-exp(-x)))),x=+infinity); > limit(exp(exp(exp(x)))/exp(exp(exp(x-exp(-exp(exp(x)))))),x=+infinity); > limit(exp(exp(x))/exp(exp(x-exp(-exp(exp(x))))),x=+infinity); > limit(x*ln(x)*ln(x*exp(x)-x^2)^2/ln(ln(x^2+2*exp(exp(3*x^3*ln(x))))),x=+infi n ity); > limit((exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/x,x=+infinity); > limit((3^x+5^x)^(1/x),x=+infinity); > limit(x/ln(x^(ln(x)^(ln(2)/ln(x)))),x=+infinity); > limit(exp(exp(2*ln(x^5+x)*ln(ln(x))))/exp(exp(10*ln(x)*ln(ln(x)))),x=+infini t y); > limit((exp(4*x*exp(-x)/(1/exp(x)+1/exp(2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/exp(x)^4,x=+in f inity); > limit(exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))/exp(x),x=+infinity); > limit( > exp(exp(-x/(1+exp(-x))))*exp(-x/(1+exp(-x/(1+exp(-x)))))*exp(exp(-x+exp(-x/( 1 +exp(-x)))))/exp(-x/(1+exp(-x)))^2-exp(x)+x, > x=+infinity); > limit( (ln(ln(x)+ln(ln(x)))-ln(ln(x)))*ln(x)/ln(ln(x)+ln(ln(ln(x)))), > x=+infinity); > limit(exp(ln(ln(x+exp(ln(x)*ln(ln(x)))))/ln(ln(ln(exp(x)+x+ln(x))))),x=+infi n ity); > limit(exp(x)*(sin(1/x+exp(-x))-sin(1/x+exp(-x^2))),x=+infinity); > limit(exp(exp(x))*(exp(sin(1/x+exp(-exp(x))))-exp(sin(1/x))),x=+infinity); > limit( (exp(x*exp(-x)/(exp(-x)+exp(-2*x^2/(x+1))))-exp(x))/x,x=+infinity); > limit( ln(ln(x*exp(x*exp(x))+1))-exp(exp(ln(ln(x))+1/x)), x=+infinity); > limit(sqrt(x+sqrt(x))-sqrt(x),x=+infinity); > limit(sqrt(x+sqrt(x+sqrt(x)))-sqrt(x+sqrt(x)),x=+infinity); > limit(4/9*exp(exp(5/2*x^(-5/7)+21/8*x^(6/11)+2*x^(-8)+54/17*x^(49/45)))^8/ln ( ln(-ln(4/3*x^(-5/14))))^(7/6),x=+infinity); > limit(ln(x)^2*exp(sqrt(ln(x))*ln(ln(x))^2*exp(sqrt(ln(ln(x)))*ln(ln(ln(x)))^ 3 ))/sqrt(x),x=+infinity); Wrong again. we have implemented limits on the previous WinCE version but took it out of this initial Zaurus/PocketPC release. > > I beleive the press release was for PocketPC but you just > have to promote your own offering for the Zaurus... interesting. > Form your post > < of the Zaurus, where xcas runs also (once you install X11). > And what you call an offering > is not a $$-software, xcas is GPL-ed soft, I won't gain any money, > it's just I don't want people owning an HP to spend 30$ without knowing > there are more powerful free alternatives. Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not advanced) without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits and then you went already to praise your own system. I won't bother trashing your program but I am sure our software does a lot of things your software doesn't and vice-versa. Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder. When it comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved, Formulae 1 is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there. Definitively worth $30. Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima which is also free and also runs on Zaurus. Now let's see how powerful xcas does against Maxima. > > I'd love to see what Formulae 1 users have to say about your > system once they have access to our simple to use and yet > uniquely powerful and automatic CAS. > Yes, please tell your customers about xcas if they have a > They might discover that maybe the don't have step by step now > but in exchange they have a much more complete CAS with dynamic > geometry, programmation, RPN mode and soon able to run many TI89/92 > Basic programs. If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement them. That's for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease of use and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the system instead of learning math. We are going after the general public and not the technical-lords ;) Carlos. ==== > Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not advanced) Studying Management Engineering I have learned that cost are never irrelevant.. > without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits and then > you went already to praise your own system. I won't bother trashing It would be better saying that he is giving info about alternatives.. Instead of trashing his arguments you should try his system and compares it to yours. > your program but I am sure our software does a lot of things your > software doesn't and vice-versa. Yes, it always happens.. but being open software lacks could be completed by anyone, not waiting for a company decission to make it. > Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder. When it > comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved, Formulae 1 > is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there. Definitively > worth $30. I am sure that it worth $30, it is your work. > Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima which is also > free and also runs on Zaurus. Now let's see how powerful xcas does > against Maxima. Yes, let's see.. have you done it? Now, we have 3 CAS running in handhelds, two open source and free, and one propietary.. and each using: - clisp (Maxima) - c++ (Giac/Xcas) - java (Formulae 1) Oops.. sorry, I forget Yacas.. it runs in Familiar distro too and it is c++ system too.. It would be nice a comparasion like to one in sci.math.symbolic about CAS systems in PC. > If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement > them. That's for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease of use > and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the > system instead of learning math. We are going after the general > public and not the technical-lords ;) I wouldn't call xcas a technical-lords apps, at least not more than a hp calculator. Of course, being a technical-lord it could be possible to make a lot of things with it without waiting for propietary company update, just read the source and modify it to fit your needs.. but this is for technical-lords ;) J.Manrique Users Club from Gij.97n #1077 HPCC Member ==== > > Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not advanced) > > Studying Management Engineering I have learned that cost are never > irrelevant.. Just irrelevant to the conversation of something being crap or not. > without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits and then > you went already to praise your own system. I won't bother trashing > > It would be better saying that he is giving info about alternatives.. > Instead of trashing his arguments you should try his system and > compares it to yours. It should be the other way around (he should try our system and compare with his) because he was the one commenting on our system. I have no interest comparing systems or commenting on his system. > your program but I am sure our software does a lot of things your > software doesn't and vice-versa. > > Yes, it always happens.. but being open software lacks could be > completed by anyone, not waiting for a company decission to make it. This is off topic. There are lots of benefits and problems with each model (open-source and proprietaty) and the discussion should go somewhere else. > Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder. When it > comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved, Formulae 1 > is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there. Definitively > worth $30. > > I am sure that it worth $30, it is your work. Not only that, it does useful things for math/science/engineering students that other similar programs can not do and that functionality is definitively worth #30. > Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima which is also > free and also runs on Zaurus. Now let's see how powerful xcas does > against Maxima. > > Yes, let's see.. have you done it? Now, we have 3 CAS running in > handhelds, two open source and free, and one propietary.. and each > using: > - clisp (Maxima) > - c++ (Giac/Xcas) > - java (Formulae 1) > > Oops.. sorry, I forget Yacas.. it runs in Familiar distro too and it > is c++ system too.. > > It would be nice a comparasion like to one in sci.math.symbolic about > CAS systems in PC. It would be nice. I won't be doing the comparison that's for sure. Whoever does it, just make sure to compare apples to apples. On the PC, there are several open source and free systems, yet commercial and proprietary Maple and Mathematica are doing pretty well. > > If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement > them. That's for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease of use > and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the > system instead of learning math. We are going after the general > public and not the technical-lords ;) > > I wouldn't call xcas a technical-lords apps, at least not more than a > hp calculator. Of course, being a technical-lord it could be possible > to make a lot of things with it without waiting for propietary company > update, just read the source and modify it to fit your needs.. but > this is for technical-lords ;) This is all good, just not the market we are going after. Carlos. > > > J.Manrique > Users Club from Gij.97n > #1077 HPCC Member ==== > It should be the other way around (he should try our system and > compare with his) because he was the one commenting on our system. > I have no interest comparing systems or commenting on his system. > No, it is the right way because you can try xcas without spending any $. I must pay 30$ to try your system. Of course you have no interest comparing publicly systems, it's much easier. > It would be nice. I won't be doing the comparison that's for sure. Whoever > does it, just make sure to compare apples to apples. > > On the PC, there are several open source and free systems, yet commercial > and proprietary Maple and Mathematica are doing pretty well. > I would certainly not describe maple or mathematica as not that advanced CAS. ==== > > It should be the other way around (he should try our system and > compare with his) because he was the one commenting on our system. > I have no interest comparing systems or commenting on his system. > No, it is the right way because you can try xcas without spending > any $. I must pay 30$ to try your system. So you are telling me that because you are cheap, it is ok for you to comment on our system (and compare it to yours) without actually trying it. and futhermore, because your system is free, I should spend time and compare it to Formulae 1 for you. You don't have anything final. Why don't you just come up with a final end user product, release it and then show rave reviews from users. > Of course you have no interest comparing publicly systems, it's > much easier. > > It would be nice. I won't be doing the comparison that's for sure. Whoever > does it, just make sure to compare apples to apples. On the PC, there are several open source and free systems, yet commercial > and proprietary Maple and Mathematica are doing pretty well. > I would certainly not describe maple or mathematica as not that > advanced CAS. ==== > So you are telling me that because you are cheap, it is ok for > you to comment on our system (and compare it to yours) without > actually trying it. and futhermore, because your system is free, > I should spend time and compare it to Formulae 1 for you. > I can comment your system by the specs that are publicly available. It is clear that you lack some fundemental instructions and it seems also that you do not provide a programming language and I don't remember seeing a geometry application. > You don't have anything final. Why don't you just come up with > a final end user product, release it and then show rave reviews > from users. > xcas is perfectly usable. It has a complete French documentation. It's not a commercial soft, I don't need to make a formal release. It has always worked that way with Erable for the 48. The main current advantage of formulae1 is that people can use it on their zaurus without installing X, and you did more advertising so that people know about it. <3D7CED8A.1030605@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7CF0ED.6548@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D7D90B4.8080002@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7E0110.324F@SPAMpoliplus.com> <11624751.0209102319.251106c8@posting.google.com> <3D7F9A39.7775@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D803773.7060802@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D80A2AD.4AD6@SPAMpoliplus.com> ==== > Why is this thread turning into flamewar? -- ----- .82a fait 5 jours que je pose des questions, je n'ai aucune r.8eponse, .88 part des remontrances. Vous r.8epondez de bonne foi ou vous passez ! Ce que vous pensez n'a pas d'int.8er.90t, r.8epondez-y seulement... -+- Joe in: Guide du Neuneu d'Usenet - Ze veux z.8e z.8exige -+- ==== Why is this thread turning into flamewar? In American-English it's called: ego. GS ==== > > Wrong again. we have implemented limits on the previous WinCE version > but took it out of this initial Zaurus/PocketPC release. > I really wonder why you decided to remove the limit instruction if you had it on wince. Is it a commercial decision to propose buyers of the first version another version and get some $? > > Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not advanced) > without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits and then > you went already to praise your own system. I won't bother trashing > your program but I am sure our software does a lot of things your > software doesn't and vice-versa. > Not that advanced does not mean crap. Of course there are some features that xcas does not do currently (like solve with abs, sqrt and inequalities or step-by-step), but that will be much easier to fix than it will be for formulae1 if you want to be on par with xcas features. > Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder. When it > comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved, Formulae 1 > is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there. Definitively > worth $30. > I don't contest it might be good for learning maths. I contest your denomination of advanced and pointed to xcas which has more advanced CAS features. > Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima which is also > free and also runs on Zaurus. Now let's see how powerful xcas does > against Maxima. > Yes, let's compare with maxima. Maxima sure has some features xcas does not have, because it's a 30 years old program. But it has been almost idle during 20 years, hence does not use any of the advanced algorithms found in CAS research during 20 years. For example, maxima uses l'Hopital rules and series expansion only to solve limit, you can check the message board and see that it fails on some not so complicated exemples. Who will implement mrv? Did you have a look at maxima source code to see how bright the future of maxima is? > If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement > them. That's for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease of use > and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the > system instead of learning math. We are going after the general > public and not the technical-lords ;) > Are you sure you are not offering a crippled CAS with an emphasis on some points of the highschool curriculum (in the US)? ==== > Wrong again. we have implemented limits on the previous WinCE version > but took it out of this initial Zaurus/PocketPC release. > I really wonder why you decided to remove the limit instruction > if you had it on wince. Is it a commercial decision to propose > buyers of the first version another version and get some $? This was already covered on a previous post. Check it out, I won't bother repeating it here. Our policy is to provide free upgrades for minor version numbers (1.0.1, 1.2, 1.3) and only charge a small upgrade fee for major version numbers (2.0, 3.0, etc). The decision had nothing to do with trying to rip off current customers. Our next feature release (aside from bug fixes) will be in 4/5 months and it will be for a minor version. > Irrelevant of cost, you concluded our stuff was crap (not advanced) > without even trying it, based only on the lack of limits and then > you went already to praise your own system. I won't bother trashing > your program but I am sure our software does a lot of things your > software doesn't and vice-versa. > Not that advanced does not mean crap. Of course there are some > features that xcas does not do currently (like solve with abs, > sqrt and inequalities or step-by-step), but that will be much Ease or not, every highschool textbook completely covers solving simple equations with sqrt, abs and sometimes even inequalities so we consider this a MUST have feature for high schools and above. A solve without these is not a very complete solve. The fact IS for me and you (CAS implementors) everything math related is EASY to implement !!! > easier to fix than it will be for formulae1 if you want to be on > par with xcas features. We are not competing with xcas. Our steps are phenomenal and will continue to get better and you simpy don't have that functionality in xcas since you are not going after the same people we are. > Also Powerful, like beauty, is on the eye of the beholder. When it > comes to learning math and seeing how something was solved, Formulae 1 > is one of the most powerful programs of its kind out there. Definitively > worth $30. > I don't contest it might be good for learning maths. I contest your > denomination of advanced and pointed to xcas which has more advanced > CAS features. Not when it comes to step-by-step features. We are very advanced here. For example in Formulae 1 you can type : int(1/(x-sqrt(x)),x) and press step to get intVarSub(integral, u=sqrt(x)) which basically says that this integral is solved by the substitution u=sqrt(x). You can continue to press step to see all of other techniques it used to solve this integrals. You just don't get that from any other CAS (with the exception of Mathpert). When learning integration, it is nice to see which one of the taught integration techniques is used to solve a particular integral; and that is what we provide to users. Pretty advanced functionality, if it was easy you would have already implemented in xcas. > Now you should compare your free xcas system with Maxima which is also > free and also runs on Zaurus. Now let's see how powerful xcas does > against Maxima. > Yes, let's compare with maxima. Maxima sure has some features xcas > does not have, because it's a 30 years old program. But it has been > almost idle during 20 years, hence does not use any of the advanced > algorithms found in CAS research during 20 years. For example, maxima > uses l'Hopital rules and series expansion only to solve limit, you > can check the message board and see that it fails on some not so > complicated exemples. Who will implement mrv? Did you have a look > at maxima source code to see how bright the future of maxima is? This is not a comparison, this is just your excuse not to compare it when it comes to solving problems in one step. Why don't you grab a copy of Webster's Tests and see how xcas does against Maxima and the other one-shot big CASs. Now that's a comparison of math capabilities. xcas implements mrv, maxima doesn't. What about everything else Maxima implements that xcas doesn't. > If our customers request such features, we will certainly implement > them. That's for sure. But keep in mind that we favour ease of use > and math learning to complicated systems when you have to learn the > system instead of learning math. We are going after the general > public and not the technical-lords ;) > Are you sure you are not offering a crippled CAS with an emphasis > on some points of the highschool curriculum (in the US)? Cripped CAS ? You just admitted that your CAS is not able to solve simple high school equations with abs and sqrt. Now that is a cripped solve command. Oh now our CAS is crippled because of the US curriculum. This is getting pathetic. Math is math, we have more user's of the Zaurus version in Europe than in the US. and most of the enthusiasm is from Europe. Notice that we left user's comments verbatim (non edited). Europeans are loving Formulae 1 too. ==== > Not when it comes to step-by-step features. We are very advanced here. Sorry, I don't consider that advanced at all (after all the advanced stuff that has already been implemented, step-by-step is easy to implement, it's just that we don't have any motivation to implement it). Besides, it is very likely to get your CAS banned from examinations. > When learning integration, it is nice to see which > one of the taught integration techniques is used to > solve a particular integral; and that is what we > provide to users. It can be useful when learning on your own, but: 1. All those silly integration tricks should be thrown out of the curriculum anyway, and 2. If you're not sure how to solve a problem, just ask a teacher or mentor (and practise, practise, practise!) > Pretty advanced functionality, > if it was easy you would have already implemented > in xcas. -- we have better things to do. My $0.02, Bhuvanesh. ==== Not when it comes to step-by-step features. We are very advanced here. > X > It can be useful when learning on your own, but: X > -- we have better things to do. But eventually you also are gonna implement it. Right?! I like the idea of a special SbS mode. I wish that it could be turned on and off for only M) Matrix operations P) Polynomial operations D) Differential operations S) Solving O) Other operations And if you have something to add be free to do so. I'd like to see this in HP 49 CAS, xcas and F1. ==== > -- we have better things to do. > > But eventually you also are gonna implement it. > Right?! Are you asking me? I'm certainly not going to implement it. > I like the idea of a special SbS mode. I still don't see it as useful enough to be worth spending time to implement, but maybe I'm just abnormal. In my view, these CAS's should be used once you have mastered the basic concepts and can solve problems on paper. > And if you have something to add be free to do so. > I'd like to see this in HP 49 CAS, xcas and F1. Well, you might be able to implement it in the HP49G CAS once it becomes open-source :) I think B.P. is planning to implement it in XCas too, sometime in the future. -- Bhuvanesh ==== > > > Not when it comes to step-by-step features. We are very advanced here. > > Sorry, I don't consider that advanced at all Your opinion, I do. > (after all the advanced stuff that has already been implemented, > step-by-step is easy to implement, Really. How did you figure that out ? Let's take for example xcas partial risch integration algorithm implementation. Hard to implement the full algorithm isn't it. but tell me how implementing that makes step-by-step easy ? You just have to use completely different algorithms here. One for one-shot answers and another for steps. You don't have implemented any sort of decent step-by-step feature so how can you say it is easy ? I might look easy, just like it seems easy to implement the full risch algorithm but actually there isn't one full implementation of it; Not even Maple or Mathematica. My point is, it looks easy until you try to do a nice job of it; The devil is in the detail. > it's just that we don't have any motivation to implement > it). Besides, it is very likely to get your CAS banned from > examinations. Sure. We are not trying to develop software to help students cheat on examination. Our software is meant to help students learn and strength their math skills. > When learning integration, it is nice to see which > one of the taught integration techniques is used to > solve a particular integral; and that is what we > provide to users. > > It can be useful when learning on your own, but: > 1. All those silly integration tricks should be thrown out of the > curriculum anyway, and Your opinion, I find them very important and apparently so every major Calculus textbook author. > 2. If you're not sure how to solve a problem, just ask a teacher or > mentor (and practise, practise, practise!) So you can't use software to help the learning process. This is just another tool to use to improve a student's math skills. > Pretty advanced functionality, > if it was easy you would have already implemented > in xcas. > > -- we have better things to do. That goes to show that we are targeting different markets. Step-by-step is a priority for us and our main key differentiating factor. Carlos. > > My $0.02, > Bhuvanesh. ==== > just like it seems easy to implement the full risch algorithm When did I say it was easy to implement the full Risch algorithm? > Sure. We are not trying to develop software to help > students cheat on examination. Our software is meant to > help students learn and strength their math skills. I agree that it might help some students, but only when they are on their own. > It can be useful when learning on your own, but: > 1. All those silly integration tricks should be thrown out of the > curriculum anyway, and > > Your opinion, I find them very important and apparently so every > major Calculus textbook author. Yes, my opinion, of course. Well, all I want to say is that those -- Bhuvanesh ==== [lot of anger post deleted] Mr Bazzarella, it would be good instead of flaming all the other posters that you answer the only questions that matters here, and which you have carefully avoided: That is: in the example Mr Parisse has given, how do you perform? If your CAS is that advanced, I'm sure it will be easy for you to give different examples that you would like other people to try and compare because you believe that they can't solve it while your system can. If you don't and you keep posting with a lot of anger and passion, you will just make people fed-up with your posts and they will disregard your opinion in every matters, which would be very sad. So yes you can do step-by-step in a useful manner (unlike the HP49 which often shows step that are totally useless for a student), but what matters at the end is what you can or can't do. Most of the CAS out-there have been top-selling CAS without providing s-b-s features. To summarize: stop acting like a politician, ignoring questions and repeating always the same thing over and over ==== > > > [lot of anger post deleted] the one you mentioned. If you said Passion than I could easily understand... must be all of that latino blood in me :) > Mr Bazzarella, it would be good instead of flaming all the other posters > that you answer the only questions that matters here, and which you have > carefully avoided: That is: in the example Mr Parisse has given, how do you perform? I haven't flamed anybody, on the contrary, I've been very polite but passionate. The only questions that matter here are the only questions that matter to you, Parisse and the xcas team but these questions don't matter to me as I previously stated. I've put out several of the questions I view important and they weren't answered either. More evidence that we are not doing the same thing. > If your CAS is that advanced, I'm sure it will be easy for you to give > different examples that you would like other people to try and compare > because you believe that they can't solve it while your system can. > > If you don't and you keep posting with a lot of anger and passion, you will > just make people fed-up with your posts and they will disregard your opinion > in every matters, which would be very sad. No anger just passion... I am not a fighter, I am a lover :) But you made a very good point and I believe this thread is over and I won't post any more. > So yes you can do step-by-step in a useful manner (unlike the HP49 which > often shows step that are totally useless for a student), but what matters > at the end is what you can or can't do. Most of the CAS out-there have been > top-selling CAS without providing s-b-s features. This is another great point. You are so right and there are some many different CASs that pretty much do the same thing one form or another. Don't you think future CASs should evolve to do things that other previous CASs can't ? I do and then I ask myself, what else can we do in a CAS nowadays with so much CPU cycles available for extra processing. What I came up with was step-by-step and then step-by-step with complete written explanations and then step-by-step with dynamically generated animations and explanations. If Formulae 1 and Mathpert do well, future CASs will need to have these features to sell well since users will be expecting them. > To summarize: stop acting like a politician, ignoring questions and > repeating always the same thing over and over I promise to do so if you, Parisse and xcas team do the same. Carlos. ==== > > The only questions that matter here are the only questions that matter > to you, Parisse and the xcas team but these questions don't matter > to me as I previously stated. I've put out several of the questions > I view important and they weren't answered either. More evidence that > we are not doing the same thing. > I have answered to your questions I believe. The fact that xcas has currently no step by step means that your question about can xcas show the steps to solve int(...) irrelevant. On the other hand you did not answer to any benchmarks I proposed,despite the fact you could, because the benchmarks I proposed were about factorization, matrix inversion and integration of a rational fraction, all instructions that are available in formulae 1 as I understand. I'm afraid it means that formulae 1 does not solve them very fast and that it might never be a priority for formulae1 to improve in this area. > > This is another great point. You are so right and there are some many > different CASs that pretty much do the same thing one form or another. > Don't you think future CASs should evolve to do things that other > previous CASs can't ? I do and then I ask myself, what else can we > do in a CAS nowadays with so much CPU cycles available for extra > processing. What I came up with was step-by-step and then step-by-step > with complete written explanations and then step-by-step with dynamically > generated animations and explanations. > I agree that CAS should provide new possibilities. Step by step is one of them, but that should not be contrary to efficiency. I don't want to have a learning CAS on a handheld, and another one on a desktop. I want to have the same CAS on both, and I want to be able to solve as many problems as possible on the PDA. Now if I had to describe a difference between xcas and standard cas like maple or mupad etc., then I would say that giac/xcas following GiNaC provides a library that programmers can use inside their C++ program. With maple or mupad you can only use external libraries *inside* the maple/mupad interface. With giac, you don't need to learn another programming language, you just need to learn the library functions names. ==== > The only questions that matter here are the only questions that matter > to you, Parisse and the xcas team but these questions don't matter > to me as I previously stated. I've put out several of the questions > I view important and they weren't answered either. More evidence that > we are not doing the same thing. > I have answered to your questions I believe. The fact that xcas has > currently no step by step means that your question about can xcas > show the steps to solve int(...) irrelevant. Also the fact that we don't have limits would imply we can't evaluate the huge list you submitted. > On the other hand > you did not answer to any benchmarks I proposed,despite the fact > you could, because the benchmarks I proposed were about factorization, > matrix inversion and integration of a rational fraction, all > instructions that are available in formulae 1 as I understand. > I'm afraid it means that formulae 1 does not solve them very fast > and that it might never be a priority for formulae1 to improve in > this area. This is another great point. You are so right and there are some many > different CASs that pretty much do the same thing one form or another. > Don't you think future CASs should evolve to do things that other > previous CASs can't ? I do and then I ask myself, what else can we > do in a CAS nowadays with so much CPU cycles available for extra > processing. What I came up with was step-by-step and then step-by-step > with complete written explanations and then step-by-step with dynamically > generated animations and explanations. > I agree that CAS should provide new possibilities. Step by step is > one of them, but that should not be contrary to efficiency. I don't > want to have a learning CAS on a handheld, and another one on a > desktop. I want to have the same CAS on both, and I want to be able > to solve as many problems as possible on the PDA. Now if I had to > describe a difference between xcas and standard cas like maple or > mupad etc., then I would say that giac/xcas following GiNaC provides a > library that programmers can use inside their C++ program. With maple > or mupad you can only use external libraries *inside* the maple/mupad > interface. With giac, you don't need to learn another programming > language, you just need to learn the library functions names. ==== > > Also the fact that we don't have limits would imply we can't > evaluate the huge list you submitted. Re-read my post. The point was not to get benchmarks about limits which would of course be irrelevant for formulae 1. It was that coding a complete limit instruction was not easy at all. The benchmarks I was speaking are factor(x^100+1) inv(ranm(15,15)) int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) none require limit <3D7CED8A.1030605@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7CF0ED.6548@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D7D90B4.8080002@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7E0110.324F@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D7EE619.1060705@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7FA72C.2E7C@SPAMpoliplus.com> <662e00ed.0209120939.782969f6@posting.google.com> <3D80C4FC.6B04@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3d8144db$1@duster.adelaide.on.net> <3D81EA9F.6786@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D8202B0.7030101@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> <3D820EA1.813@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D822172.9040706@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> ==== Here are some timings with Derive on my single speed (7.91 MHz) HP200LX, still an old DOS machine with a 16 bits CPU and no more than 640k of RAM... Also the fact that we don't have limits would imply we can't > evaluate the huge list you submitted. Re-read my post. The point was not to get benchmarks about limits > which would of course be irrelevant for formulae 1. It was that > coding a complete limit instruction was not easy at all. > The benchmarks I was speaking are > factor(x^100+1) 2.2 seconds to get: (x^4+1)(x^16-x^12+x^8-x^4+1)(x^80-x^60+x^40-x^20+1) Not bad. > inv(ranm(15,15)) 7.9 seconds to create the matrix(random(i+1)-random(j+1), i, 15, j, 15), and 63.3 seconds to inverse it. Some Garbage Collections have occurred, and about 30% of the free memory have been eaten (and released after). Too long, and impractical, since the result cannot be displayed properly, and there's no matrix editor. > int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) 19.6 seconds to get a long: 15646785.atan(x)/67108864 - 15646785.ln((x-1)/(x+1))/134217728 + x(46940355.x^32-402345900.x^28+1521599040.x^24-3324596364.x^20+4608419886. x^ 16-4177677924.x^12+2449584536.x^8-874703844.x^4+161168823)/(301989888(1-x^4) ^ 9) Not bad, but the result seems useless. -- ----- Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson on Bill Gates: He has a Napoleonic concept of himself and his company, an arrogance that derives from power ==== How about the Numeric/Approx Matrix Inversion Test? RANM with float elements in the range -9. to +9. 4x4, 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, how high can you go? Is there a memory and/or (practical) time limit? > Here are some timings with Derive on my single speed (7.91 MHz) > HP200LX, still an old DOS machine with a 16 bits CPU and no more than 640k > of RAM... <3D7CED8A.1030605@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7CF0ED.6548@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D7D90B4.8080002@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7E0110.324F@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D7EE619.1060705@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7FA72C.2E7C@SPAMpoliplus.com> <662e00ed.0209120939.782969f6@posting.google.com> <3D80C4FC.6B04@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3d8144db$1@duster.adelaide.on.net> <3D81EA9F.6786@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D8202B0.7030101@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> <3D820EA1.813@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D822172.9040706@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> ==== > How about the Numeric/Approx Matrix Inversion Test? > RANM with float elements in the range -9. to +9. > 4x4, 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, how high can you go? 4x4: 0.7s (creation), 0.4s (inversion) 8x8: 2.5s (creation), 2.6s-11.3s (inversion) 16x16: 9.0s-13s (creation), 82.7s-96.1s (inversion) 32x32: 38.3s (creation), aborted the test after a loooong time, when I saw that it was constantly doing GC operations, with 5% free memory. The creation step consists of simplifying the expression: matrix(random(i+1)-random(j+1),i,16,j,16) for a 16x16 matrix. The time taken for an operation can vary depending on the free memory, as Derive performs some Garbage Collection when needed. For example, during the inversion of the 16x16 matrix, 7 to 9 GC occurred, each taking 4 to 5 seconds. When necessary (and practical), I've performed the same test several times, and taken the best and worst time for each. I won't do it again for the 32x32 matrix. I've performed the test with Exact and Approximate precision (except for the 32x32). The timings were approximately the same in both settings, but the memory taken in the Approximate setting is lower. The memory taken by the 4x4 and 8x8 tests is negligible. The free memory indicator after the 16x16 test is about 80%. > Is there a memory and/or (practical) time limit? There's a memory limit for sure, as the machine has only 640k of RAM. I don't know if Derive 4.11 for DOS can use EMM, it would surely help. The practical limit (time) is around the 16x16. Such matrices take some time to create, manipulate, and display. But the fact that you can use the same exact program on a more powerful PC and make use of the extended memory is nice. For example, Here are the timings in exact mode on a Celeron 333, with 64MB RAM, under Windows98: 4x4: 0.0s 8x8: 0.1s 16x16: 0.2s 32x32: 4.1s 64x64: 149.0s Of course you can't have that kind of PC always with you, but slightly less powerful ones are available (Toshiba Libretto for example). -- ----- animation, mais le machin auromatique MAJORDOMO me renvoit toujours la m.90me foutu page d'instruction de code. Comment ca marche ? -+- W in Guide du Neuneu d'Usenet : Mauvais abonn.8e, changer d'abonn.8e -+- ==== How about the Numeric/Approx Matrix Inversion Test? > RANM with float elements in the range -9. to +9. > 4x4, 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, how high can you go? 4x4: 0.7s (creation), 0.4s (inversion) > 8x8: 2.5s (creation), 2.6s-11.3s (inversion) > 16x16: 9.0s-13s (creation), 82.7s-96.1s (inversion) > 32x32: 38.3s (creation), aborted the test after a loooong time, when I saw > that it was constantly doing GC operations, with 5% free memory. X > But the fact that you can use the same exact program on a more powerful PC > and make use of the extended memory is nice. For example, Here are the > timings in exact mode on a Celeron 333, with 64MB RAM, under Windows98: > 4x4: 0.0s > 8x8: 0.1s > 16x16: 0.2s > 32x32: 4.1s > 64x64: 149.0s Of course you can't have that kind of PC always with you, but slightly > less powerful ones are available (Toshiba Libretto for example). X So my best timings on a HP 49G shows that the HP 200LX Derive is both slower and can't handle big matrices :-( HP 49G size elements bytes time 4 x 4 ( 16) =128B : 0.7_s 8 x 8 ( 64) =1/2 K : 3_s 16 x16 (256) = 2 K : 16_s 32 x32 (1024) = 8 K : 96_s = '1_min+36_s' 64 x64 (4096) =32 K : 655_s='10_min+55_s' CONCLUSION: I think I need xcas on my HP Jornada 720 Can anybody deliver an executable for it ?! Veli-Pekka PS. TI 89 numbers were (surprisingly similar with the HP 200LX): 4x4: 1.1 s 8x8: 8.2 s 16x16: 81.7 s 32x32: Out of memory 64x64: Out of memory ==== > How about the Numeric/Approx Matrix Inversion Test? > RANM with float elements in the range -9. to +9. > 4x4, 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, how high can you go? 4x4: 0.7s (creation), 0.4s (inversion) > 8x8: 2.5s (creation), 2.6s-11.3s (inversion) > 16x16: 9.0s-13s (creation), 82.7s-96.1s (inversion) > 32x32: 38.3s (creation), aborted the test after a loooong time, when I saw > that it was constantly doing GC operations, with 5% free memory. > X > But the fact that you can use the same exact program on a more powerful PC > and make use of the extended memory is nice. For example, Here are the > timings in exact mode on a Celeron 333, with 64MB RAM, under Windows98: > 4x4: 0.0s > 8x8: 0.1s > 16x16: 0.2s > 32x32: 4.1s > 64x64: 149.0s Of course you can't have that kind of PC always with you, but slightly > less powerful ones are available (Toshiba Libretto for example). > X > So my best timings on a HP 49G shows that the HP 200LX Derive > is both slower and can't handle big matrices :-( > HP 49G > size elements bytes time > 4 x 4 ( 16) =128B : 0.7_s > 8 x 8 ( 64) =1/2 K : 3_s > 16 x16 (256) = 2 K : 16_s > 32 x32 (1024) = 8 K : 96_s = '1_min+36_s' > 64 x64 (4096) =32 K : 655_s='10_min+55_s' For comparison, in Mathematica (running on a 500MHz Windows2000 machine): In[1]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,16}, {j,16}]]; In[2]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] Out[2]= 0. Second In[3]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,64}, {j,64}]]; In[4]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] Out[4]= 0. Second In[5]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,256}, {j,256}]]; In[6]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] Out[6]= 0.181 Second In[7]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,1000}, {j,1000}]]; In[8]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] Out[8]= 6.89 Second -- Bhuvanesh ==== > For comparison, in Mathematica (running on a 500MHz Windows2000 machine): > > In[1]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,16}, {j,16}]]; > > In[2]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] > > Out[2]= 0. Second > > In[3]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,64}, {j,64}]]; > > In[4]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] > > Out[4]= 0. Second > > In[5]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,256}, {j,256}]]; > > In[6]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] > > Out[6]= 0.181 Second > > In[7]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,1000}, {j,1000}]]; > > In[8]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] > > Out[8]= 6.89 Second Do you know what kind of algorithm is used? These timings are very good. I would guess modular algorithms... ==== > CONCLUSION: I think I need xcas on my HP Jornada 720 > Can anybody deliver an executable for it ?! Xcas doesn't run in MS WindowsCE ... yet. There are some stuff needed first, but maybe Ranier Keuchel is near to get them: http://www.rainer-keuchel.de/software.html As you will see there, he has a Maxima running in WindowsCE... I can't promise you that it would be easy: http://handhelds.org/~gberenfield/Jornada/index.html Easier way would be getting a cheap iPAQ3100 unit (cheap: more or less same price than hp49), and install Familiar on it and Xcas: http://familiar.handhelds.org Of course, after that you could join Scientific Digital Assistant project.. J.Manrique Users Club from Gij.97n #1077 HPCC Member http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique ==== > CONCLUSION: I think I need xcas on my HP Jornada 720 > Can anybody deliver an executable for it ?! X > I can't promise you that it would be easy: > http://handhelds.org/~gberenfield/Jornada/index.html X Yes, I've tried it, but I couldn't find a direct link to the latest executable. I must be loosing my grip (did I ever have it?) <3D7CED8A.1030605@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7CF0ED.6548@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D7D90B4.8080002@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7E0110.324F@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D7EE619.1060705@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7FA72C.2E7C@SPAMpoliplus.com> <662e00ed.0209120939.782969f6@posting.google.com> <3D80C4FC.6B04@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3d8144db$1@duster.adelaide.on.net> <3D81EA9F.6786@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D8202B0.7030101@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> <3D820EA1.813@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D822172.9040706@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> ==== > So my best timings on a HP 49G shows that the HP 200LX Derive > is both slower and can't handle big matrices :-( Maybe. There's no numeric matrix, everything is symbolic in Derive. Maybe someone can achieve better results than I did. After all, There's More Than One Way To Do It... ;) > HP 49G > size elements bytes time > 4 x 4 ( 16) =128B : 0.7_s > 8 x 8 ( 64) =1/2 K : 3_s > 16 x16 (256) = 2 K : 16_s > 32 x32 (1024) = 8 K : 96_s = '1_min+36_s' > 64 x64 (4096) =32 K : 655_s='10_min+55_s' CONCLUSION: I think I need xcas on my HP Jornada 720 > Can anybody deliver an executable for it ?! My conclusion would be that the HP49 does a better job at number crunching than Derive. I hoped so ;) -- ----- Discuter tranquillement avec Michel Guillou??? Je n'ai JAMAIS vu quelqu'un de plus *facho* que ce type. C'est .8ecoeurant. -+- Rocou In GNU - T'as l'adresse des FFL, c'est pour .8ecrire -+- ==== > Maybe. There's no numeric matrix, everything is symbolic in Derive. Really? I haven't used my copy of Derive (for Windows) for a while, but I seem to remember creating a numeric matrix. -- Bhuvanesh <3D81EA9F.6786@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D8202B0.7030101@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> <3D820EA1.813@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D822172.9040706@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> <662e00ed.0209161120.56c7f974@posting.google.com> ==== Maybe. There's no numeric matrix, everything is symbolic in Derive. Really? I haven't used my copy of Derive (for Windows) for a while, > but I seem to remember creating a numeric matrix. There's nothing in Derive for DOS to easily create a matrix (i.e. no matrix editor). You either have to type in everything on the command line, or use some formulas to create one. That's what I did. You can change the precision between Exact or Approximate, but the timing will be similar (tested with a 32x32 matrix on a dosemu running from my -- ----- L'argument de poids qui dit que mes potes et moi on est d'accord n'avance pas .88 grand chose. On va voter les th.8eoremes, .8da ira plus vite que de les demontrer et elire les annees bisextiles, .8da sera rigolo. -+- BjB in http://neuneu.mine.nu : Le texosaure (s)electif. ==== Veli-Pekka Nousiainen schrieb im Newsbeitrag > How about the Numeric/Approx Matrix Inversion Test? > RANM with float elements in the range -9. to +9. > 4x4, 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, how high can you go? > Is there a memory and/or (practical) time limit? > maybe there's a sense limit;-) Raymond ==== Actually, dear Raymond, I'm try to figure out what to use besides my HP 49G. Maybe the iPaq is a good choise? What I need is a faster CAS on a PDA - my HP 720. Is there a link to a directly loadable executable? > Veli-Pekka Nousiainen schrieb im Newsbeitrag > How about the Numeric/Approx Matrix Inversion Test? > RANM with float elements in the range -9. to +9. > 4x4, 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, how high can you go? > Is there a memory and/or (practical) time limit? maybe there's a sense limit;-) Raymond <3D7CED8A.1030605@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7CF0ED.6548@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D7D90B4.8080002@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7E0110.324F@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D7EE619.1060705@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7FA72C.2E7C@SPAMpoliplus.com> <662e00ed.0209120939.782969f6@posting.google.com> <3D80C4FC.6B04@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3d8144db$1@duster.adelaide.on.net> <3D81EA9F.6786@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D8202B0.7030101@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> <3D820EA1.813@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D822172.9040706@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> ==== > Is there a link to a directly loadable executable? Demo versions of the Windows version, only. The Derive for DOS is no more sold by SoftWareHouse, but some distributors can eventually have some old boxes around. That's what I did, with an english distributor. -- ----- Je suis un nouvel abonn.8e d'internet et je cherche quelqu' un qui m'explique comment je pourrais avoir l'image vid.8eo sur les sites du web. Merci d'avance. -+- TO in Guide du Nenuneu - Les chiens-guides d'aveugles du web -+- ==== Maybe you should really consider DERIVE. Since the 720 is powerful enough to run something XT-CE or alike, and above that DERIVE for DOS. Memory isn't the problem here because DERIVE occupies only about 230k, yes kilobytes, at least the version for the 95LX. Raymond Veli-Pekka Nousiainen schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Actually, dear Raymond, I'm try to figure out > what to use besides my HP 49G. > Maybe the iPaq is a good choise? > What I need is a faster CAS on a PDA - my HP 720. > Is there a link to a directly loadable executable? Veli-Pekka Nousiainen schrieb im Newsbeitrag > How about the Numeric/Approx Matrix Inversion Test? > RANM with float elements in the range -9. to +9. > 4x4, 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, how high can you go? > Is there a memory and/or (practical) time limit? maybe there's a sense limit;-) Raymond <3D7CED8A.1030605@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7CF0ED.6548@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D7D90B4.8080002@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7E0110.324F@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D7EE619.1060705@nospam.fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr> <3D7FA72C.2E7C@SPAMpoliplus.com> <662e00ed.0209120939.782969f6@posting.google.com> <3D80C4FC.6B04@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3d8144db$1@duster.adelaide.on.net> <3D81EA9F.6786@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D8202B0.7030101@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> <3D820EA1.813@SPAMpoliplus.com> <3D822172.9040706@pasdespam.wanadoo.fr> ==== > Maybe you should really consider DERIVE. > Since the 720 is powerful enough to run something XT-CE or alike, > and above that DERIVE for DOS. If you have a keyboard, it's good. Derive without a keyboard is not usable... :) > Memory isn't the problem here because DERIVE occupies only about 230k, > yes kilobytes, at least the version for the 95LX. In fact, the 4.11 version that I have occupies about 800k, with all the demo, help, and additional files. The binary alone is 430k in 3 files. -- ----- MG> Arriv.8ee des factures pour Freesbee Plus le 30 novembre, Sur le NG freesbee.test pourtant, un representant de freesbee .88 annonc.8e l'arriv.8ee imminente des factures . -+- ba in http://neuneu.ctw.cc - Neuneu teste Facture 1.0 ¤2 -+- ==== Erwann ABALEA schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Memory isn't the problem here because DERIVE occupies only about 230k, > yes kilobytes, at least the version for the 95LX. In fact, the 4.11 version that I have occupies about 800k, with all the > demo, help, and additional files. The binary alone is 430k in 3 files. > But even the up to 800k for the 4.11 version is not very much, compared to nearly all other programs in this area;-) Raymond ==== I was unable to factor X^100+1 in my HP 49G. It actually crashed (and ate my batteries). The integral was ok. I already supplied the matrix data for the HP 49G. It would be interesting to see TI 89 data and F1 on Zaurus data inverting numerical matrices. Are there limits (pun intended) to their performance? Also the fact that we don't have limits would imply we can't > evaluate the huge list you submitted. > Re-read my post. The point was not to get benchmarks about limits > which would of course be irrelevant for formulae 1. It was that > coding a complete limit instruction was not easy at all. > The benchmarks I was speaking are > factor(x^100+1) > inv(ranm(15,15)) > int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) > none require limit > ==== my zaurus is a little slow :( results in a zaurus: factor(x^100+1) 16 seconds inv(ranm(15,15)) 9 seconds int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) 7 seconds factor(x^100+x^50+1) 16 seconds is there any other test you would like to see in the zaurus? if so, please write the sintax. i have installed the program in the SD card and not in pure ram. this may make it slower. > It would be interesting to see TI 89 data and > F1 on Zaurus data inverting numerical matrices. > Are there limits (pun intended) to their performance? > factor(x^100+1) > inv(ranm(15,15)) > int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) > none require limit > ==== > factor(x^100+1) 16 seconds > inv(ranm(15,15)) 9 seconds > int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) 7 seconds > factor(x^100+x^50+1) 16 seconds > > is there any other test you would like to see in the zaurus? > if so, please write the sintax. > > i have installed the program in the SD card and not in pure ram. this > may make it slower. The timings are really slow compared to my ipaq. To be precise I give the computation timing (showed in the red line near the full button). Maybe you don't run the CPU at full speed? ==== hi again! i get : factor(x^100+1) Time: 6.35 inv(ranm(15,15)) Time: 1.44 int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) Time: 1.4 factor(x^100+x^50+1) Time: 4.99 > factor(x^100+1) 16 seconds > inv(ranm(15,15)) 9 seconds > int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) 7 seconds > factor(x^100+x^50+1) 16 seconds > > is there any other test you would like to see in the zaurus? > if so, please write the sintax. > > i have installed the program in the SD card and not in pure ram. this > may make it slower. > > The timings are really slow compared to my ipaq. To be precise > I give the computation timing (showed in the red line near the > full button). Maybe you don't run the CPU at full speed? ==== How about the Numeric/Approx Matrix Inversion Test? RANM with float elements in the range -9. to +9. 4x4, 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, how high can you go? Is there a memory and/or (practical) time limit? > hi again! i get : factor(x^100+1) Time: 6.35 > inv(ranm(15,15)) Time: 1.44 > int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) Time: 1.4 > factor(x^100+x^50+1) Time: 4.99 > factor(x^100+1) 16 seconds > inv(ranm(15,15)) 9 seconds > int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) 7 seconds > factor(x^100+x^50+1) 16 seconds is there any other test you would like to see in the zaurus? > if so, please write the sintax. i have installed the program in the SD card and not in pure ram. this > may make it slower. The timings are really slow compared to my ipaq. To be precise > I give the computation timing (showed in the red line near the > full button). Maybe you don't run the CPU at full speed? ==== How about the Numeric/Approx Matrix Inversion Test? RANM with float elements in the range -9. to +9. 4x4, 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, how high can you go? Is there a memory and/or (practical) time limit? > factor(x^100+1) 16 seconds > inv(ranm(15,15)) 9 seconds > int(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) 7 seconds > factor(x^100+x^50+1) 16 seconds is there any other test you would like to see in the zaurus? > if so, please write the sintax. i have installed the program in the SD card and not in pure ram. this > may make it slower. The timings are really slow compared to my ipaq. To be precise > I give the computation timing (showed in the red line near the > full button). Maybe you don't run the CPU at full speed? ==== > I was unable to factor X^100+1 in my HP 49G. > It actually crashed (and ate my batteries). > The integral was ok. > I already supplied the matrix data for the HP 49G. > It would be interesting to see TI 89 data and > F1 on Zaurus data inverting numerical matrices. > Are there limits (pun intended) to their performance? TI92+ does all three tasks. factor(x^100+1) is almost instant, about 1s, and the answer is: (x^4+1)*(x^16-x^12+x^8-x^4+1)*(x^80-x^60+x^40-x^20+1) (randMat(15,15))^(-1) takes about 210 s. in integer math (fractional arithmetic, no loss of accuracy) (m^-1) where m is a floating point matrix 15 x 15 created prior test required about 100 s to complete. DIAMOND - ENTER forces floating point math. Strange, but ENTER alone, despite the fact, that all entries in 'm' are floating point entries (altough of the integer value) still takes about 200 s to complete and returns fractions as elements. This is strange choice of the algorithm. integral(1/(x^4-1)^10,x) takes about 600 s and returns the exact formula (no floating point) Jack ==== > My 49G freezes for a while when I try to simplify the following > equation using the SIMPLIFY command: sqr(sin(x))/tan(x)*cos(x)^2-pi^i Where sqr is the square root symbol, pi is the greek letter pi, > and i is imaginary number. Any ideas? EVAL works, but SIMPLIFY does't. And I don't know how but I managed to 'simplify' the above equation to ((i*COS(RE(X))*EXP(IM(LN(.89´ç)))*EXP(i*X)^6+3*i*COS(RE (X))*EXP( IM(LN(.89´ç)))*EXP(i*X)^4+3*i*COS(RE(X))*EXP(IM(LN(.89 ´ç)))*EXP(i*X)^2 +i*COS(RE(X))*EXP(IM(LN(.89´ç))))*[RegisteredTrademark ].892*EXP(i*RE(LN(.89´ç)))*¨[A Hat](-(i*EXP(i*X )^3)+i*EXP(i*X))*(ABS(2*COS(RE(X))*SIN(RE(X))^2+2*COS(RE(X))^3- 2*EXP(IM(X))^2*COS(RE(X)))/ABS(EXP(IM(X))^3))-((((8*COS(RE(X))* SIN(RE(X))^2+8*COS(RE(X))^3)*EXP(i*X)^5-(8*COS(RE(X))*SIN(RE(X) )^2+8*COS(RE(X))^3)*EXP(i*X)^3)*(1/EXP(IM(X)))^2-(8*COS(RE(X)) *EXP(i*X)^5-8*COS(RE(X))*EXP(i*X)^3))*ABS(COS(RE(X)))*(1/ABS( EXP(IM(X))))*EXP(i*RE(LN(.89´ç)))^2+(((8*COS(RE(X))*SIN (RE(X))^2+8 *COS(RE(X))^3)*EXP(i*X)^5-(8*COS(RE(X))*SIN(RE(X))^2+8*COS(RE (X))^3)*EXP(i*X)^3)*(1/EXP(IM(X)))^2-(8*COS(RE(X))*EXP(i*X)^5 -8*COS(RE(X))*EXP(i*X)^3))*ABS(COS(RE(X)))*(1/ABS(EXP(IM(X))))) )*((4*SIN(RE(X))^2+4*COS(RE(X))^2)/EXP(IM(X))^2)*((SIN(RE(X))^2 *4+COS(RE(X))^2*4)/EXP(IM(X))^2/(ABS(SIN(RE(X))^2*4+COS(RE(X) )^2*4)/ABS(EXP(IM(X))^2)))*ABS(COS(RE(X)))*(1/ABS(EXP(IM(X))))* (ABS(2*COS(RE(X))*SIN(RE(X))^2+2*COS(RE(X))^3-2*EXP(IM(X))^2* COS(RE(X)))/ABS(EXP(IM(X))^3))/(SQ((2*COS(RE(X))^2*SIN(RE(X)) 2+2*COS(RE(X))^4-2*EXP(IM(X))^2*COS(RE(X))^2)/EXP(IM(X))^4)*( (32*SIN(RE(X))^2+32*COS(RE(X))^2)*EXP(IM(LN(.89´ç)))*EX P(i*X)^5-( 32*SIN(RE(X))^2+32*COS(RE(X))^2)*EXP(IM(LN(.89´ç)))*EXP (i*X)^3)*( 1/EXP(IM(X)))*EXP(i*RE(LN(.89´ç))))-((i*SIN(RE(X))*SIN( RE(LN(.89´ç))) ^3+i*COS(RE(X))*COS(RE(LN(.89´ç)))*SIN(RE(LN(.89´ ç)))^2+(i*SIN(RE(X))* COS(RE(LN(.89´ç)))^2+i*SIN(RE(X)))*SIN(RE(LN(.89´ ç)))+i*COS(RE(X))* COS(RE(LN(.89´ç)))^3-i*COS(RE(X))*COS(RE(LN(.89´ ç))))*EXP(i*RE(LN(.89´ç)) )^2-i*SIN(RE(X))*SIN(RE(LN(.89´ç)))^3-i*COS(RE(X))*COS( RE(LN(.89´ç)))* SIN(RE(LN(.89´ç)))^2+(-(i*SIN(RE(X))*COS(RE(LN(.89[Ye n]ç)))^2)-i*SIN(RE(X)) )*SIN(RE(LN(.89´ç)))-i*COS(RE(X))*COS(RE(LN(.89´ ç)))^3+i*COS(RE(X))* COS(RE(LN(.89´ç))))*(EXP(i*X)^2-1)*((-((SIN(RE(X))^2-CO S(RE(X))^2)* EXP(-IM(X))^2)-1)/ABS(-((SIN(RE(X))^2-COS(RE(X))^2)*EXP(-IM(X)) ^2)-1))*¨.89-1*((16*SIN(RE(LN(.89´[CapitalAA cute])))^2+16*COS(RE(LN(.89´ç)))^2)/EXP(IM( X))^2)*((SIN(RE(LN(.89´ç)))^2*16+COS(RE(LN(.89´[ CapitalAAcute])))^2*16)/EXP(IM(X))^2/ ((SIN(RE(LN(.89´ç)))^2*16+COS(RE(LN(.89´[Capital AAcute])))^2*16)/ABS(EXP(IM(X))^2)))* ¨.89(SIN(RE(X))^4+2*COS(RE(X))^2*SIN(RE(X))^2+COS(R E(X))^4)*(1/ABS (EXP(IM(X))))*ABS(4*SIN(RE(X))*SIN(RE(LN(.89´ç)))^3+4*C OS(RE(X))* COS(RE(LN(.89´ç)))*SIN(RE(LN(.89´ç )))^2+(4*SIN(RE(X))*COS(RE(LN(.89´ç)))^2+ 4*SIN(RE(X)))*SIN(RE(LN(.89´ç)))+4*COS(RE(X))*COS(RE(LN (.89´ç)))^3-4* COS(RE(X))*COS(RE(LN(.89´ç))))/(SQ((4*SIN(RE(X))*SIN(RE (LN(.89´ç)))^3+4 *COS(RE(X))*COS(RE(LN(.89´ç)))*SIN(RE(LN(.89´[Ca pitalAAcute])))^2+(4*SIN(RE(X))*COS( RE(LN(.89´ç)))^2+4*SIN(RE(X)))*SIN(RE(LN(.89´[Ca pitalAAcute])))+4*COS(RE(X))*COS(RE( LN(.89´ç)))^3-4*COS(RE(X))*COS(RE(LN(.89´[Capita lAAcute]))))/EXP(IM(X)))*(((8*SIN(RE( X))^2+8*COS(RE(X))^2)*EXP(IM(LN(.89´ç)))*SIN(RE(LN(.89 ´ç)))^2+(8*SIN( RE(X))^2+8*COS(RE(X))^2)*EXP(IM(LN(.89´ç)))*COS(RE(LN( 211´ç)))^2)*EXP (i*X)^2-((8*SIN(RE(X))^2+8*COS(RE(X))^2)*EXP(IM(LN(.89´[CapitalAAcute ])))*SIN(RE (LN(.89´ç)))^2+(8*SIN(RE(X))^2+8*COS(RE(X))^2)*EXP(IM(L N(.89´ç)))*COS( RE(LN(.89´ç)))^2))*(1/EXP(IM(X)))*EXP(i*RE(LN(.89[Yen ]ç)))) What is RE()? -- Al ==== Hey the windows calculator can do 99999!, not exact solution, but it gives the correct scientific exponent. It even pops up a nice box saying that the calculation might take a while, several of those boxes actually. Anyway, the result is 2.8242294079603478742934215780245e+456568. Didn't take too long either, under a minute. -- Al ==== > Hey the windows calculator can do 99999!, not exact solution, > but it gives the correct scientific exponent. It even pops up a > nice box saying that the calculation might take a while, several > of those boxes actually. > > Anyway, the result is 2.8242294079603478742934215780245e+456568. > > Didn't take too long either, under a minute. Not only is the exponent correct, but so are all the digits! Scott -- Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu This isn't flying. This is falling, with style. -- Buzz Lightyear ==== I just tried the calculation (((((9^9)^9)^9)^9)^9) and the next morning I had the answer. How is that possible? The number has 28179 digits which makes it larger than 9E499, as far as I know. Then i tried this calculation. 9^(9^9), but i get an integer overflow. That doesn't make sense. Can someone please explain both problems to me? Michael ==== > I just tried the calculation (((((9^9)^9)^9)^9)^9) and the next > morning I had the answer. How is that possible? The number has 28179 digits which makes it larger than 9E499, as far > as I know. Then i tried this calculation. 9^(9^9), but i get an integer overflow. 9^(9^9) is a really big number, like more than 60000 digits, a lot more. It's equal to 3^774840978 which becomes something like (approximately): 4.281247731.8710^(3.69693099.8710^8) See how the exponent of scientific notation needs to be displayed in scientific notation. If you see that, you know it's a big number. The calculation (((((9^9)^9)^9)^9)^9) starts off with a large base and does an exponent of 9 every time where as 9^(9^9) has a huge exponent, that's the critical part. For your (((((9^9)^9)^9)^9)^9) calculation I get actually 129744 digits using logarithms. 9^(9^9) appears to have 851249821 digits using this method. Please correct me if I'm wrong. -- Al ==== > I just tried the calculation (((((9^9)^9)^9)^9)^9) and the next > morning I had the answer. How is that possible? > > The number has 28179 digits which makes it larger than 9E499, as far > as I know. > > Then i tried this calculation. 9^(9^9), but i get an integer overflow. > > That doesn't make sense. > > Can someone please explain both problems to me? > > Michael It does make sense: a) (((((9^9)^9)^9)^9)^9) =9(9^5) =9^59049 which has 56348 digits (if I calculated right). b) 9^(9^9) =9^387420489 which is a v e r y large number and probably can't be handled by the 49G. AXel ==== > > For your (((((9^9)^9)^9)^9)^9) calculation I get actually 129744 digits > using logarithms. 9^(9^9) appears to have 851249821 digits using this > method. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Using Logarithms I get: a) for (((((9^9)^9)^9)^9)^9): 9^5 * Log(9) = 56 347.1 ... which means 56348 digits. b) for 9^(9^9): (9^9) * Log(9) = 369 693 099.6 ... which means 369 693 100 digits. copyright by HP32Sii :-) Regard Axel. ==== > b) 9^(9^9) > =9^387420489 which is a v e r y large number and probably can't > be handled by the 49G. It can, if you've got 176 Meg of merged RAM, and a modified calculator that can address that much memory space. :-) Since x^y = 10^(LOG(x)*y), and 123.456 = 123 + 0.456, and 10^(x+y) = (10^x) * (10^y), we can therefore calculate: 9^387420489 = 10^(LOG(9)*387420489) = 10^(369693099.631570358743543...) = 10^(369693099 + 0.631570358743543...) = 10^ (0.631570358743543... + 369693099) = 10^(0.631570358743543...) * 10^369693099 = 4.281247731757... * 10^369693099 which is therefore an integer 369693100 digits long, starting with 428.... -Joe- ==== Hans Joachim Klotz ha scritto nel > maybe I'm stupid, I have HP49G for 5 days. > To convert a value with units (8 m to ? mm) I need 7 steps by HP48GX. To convert a value with units (8 m to ? mm) I need 21 steps by HP49G. In RPN mode I must carry out by HP49G. Sorry I can't really understand... do you use HP49G in RPN? If so converting should be simple... 8 RightShift-6 (UNITS) F2 (LENGTH) F1 (m) LeftShift-F3 (mm) You have the correct result on the stack Maybe I haven't understood the question.. if so my apologies... try to explain in other words... Kickaha ==== > maybe I'm stupid, I have HP49G for 5 days. To convert a value with > units (8 m to ? mm) I need 7 steps by > HP48GX. To convert a value > with units (8 m to ? mm) I need 21 steps by HP49G. Avoid reading the 49-manual on units! It simply omits (!) the really ingenious unit handling from the 48 and makes a sophisticated story of all this. With my small library Unitman (which, of course, sets the RPN mode in case the user forgets it :-) you can convert what you want in just one leftshift key-stroke. And you can quite easily customize the whole builtin units system to an European setting (or even a German one, with German names of Unit directories, say :-). Moreover, you can eliminate these various square-miles etc (without loosing them). Your own user-defined units are handled as if they were builtin, i.e., you can convert them with leftshift like the builtin units on the 48, but now on the 49! - Wolfgang PS. Unitman is available for both, the 48 and the 49 ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/science/ ==== > Avoid reading the 49-manual on units! It simply omits (!) the really > ingenious unit handling from the 48 and makes a sophisticated story of > all this. With my small library Unitman (which, of course, sets the RPN > mode in case the user forgets it :-) you can convert what you want in Hehe, good way to advertise your software. Nice program by the way. Is there something that can simplify (kg^2*m^4)/(A^3*s^6) to Wb/F without thinking too much of what unit to convert to? Converting to SI base units is easy, but sometimes trying to 'simplify' certain units proves difficult. There has to be around this, no? -- Al ==== Following steps are neccesary by HP48. 8; RightShift; (6)Units; LENG; M; LeftShift; MM; So I need 7 steps or in other words I must press the key for 7 times. When I use the HP49G by RPN I don't understand your way. 1) 8; clear 2) RightShift; clear 3) 6 (UNITS); clear 4) F2 (LENGTH); I must go to Lenght by pressing key. It's the second in the list 5) OK or ENTER; 6) M; I'm happy! it's the first in the list 7) OK or ENTER; Now I have press the keys for 7 times and I in the middle of the converting. LeftShift-F3 (mm) (You have the correct result on the stack) I dont't undestand what you mean then, because after step 7) the unit men.9f is closed. Hans Joachim (.de) F1 ( > m) LeftShift-F3 (mm) You have the correct result on the stack Hans Joachim (.de) > Hans Joachim Klotz ha scritto nel >> maybe I'm stupid, I have HP49G for 5 days. >> To convert a value with units (8 m to ? mm) I need 7 steps by HP48GX. >> To convert a value with units (8 m to ? mm) I need 21 steps by HP49G. >> In RPN mode I must carry out by HP49G. > > Sorry I can't really understand... do you use HP49G in RPN? If so > converting should be simple... 8 RightShift-6 (UNITS) F2 (LENGTH) F1 ( > m) LeftShift-F3 (mm) You have the correct result on the stack Maybe I haven't understood the question.. if so my apologies... try to > explain in other words... > Kickaha > > > ==== I'm not quite sure, if this is know already, but I just wanted to let you know that 1.19-6 adds a wrong -1 when integrating the following antiderivative: x * cos(x) The correct answer is: x * sin(x) + cos(x) instead of x * sin(x) + cos(x) - 1 Greetings, Stefan ==== > > > I'm not quite sure, if this is know already, but I just wanted to let > you know that 1.19-6 adds a wrong -1 when integrating the following > antiderivative: x * cos(x) > > The correct answer is: x * sin(x) + cos(x) instead of x * sin(x) + > cos(x) - 1 > > Greetings, > Stefan How did you get it? With 1.19-6 when I input X*COS(X) and press INTVX I get COS(X) + X*SIN(X) Or did I understand it wrongly :| -- Markus Nylund markus.nylund@arcada.fi 040-5377 377 ==== I'm guessing here so don't shoot me down in flames if I'm wrong, but is is possible that what you're doing is finding the definite integral from zero to x of x*cos(x)? If so then the -1 is coming from evaluating [integral at x] minus [integral at zero], since x*sin(x)+cos(x) evaluates to 1 at x=0. If so then you should be using a different method. > > I'm not quite sure, if this is know already, but I just wanted to let > you know that 1.19-6 adds a wrong -1 when integrating the following > antiderivative: x * cos(x) > > The correct answer is: x * sin(x) + cos(x) instead of x * sin(x) + > cos(x) - 1 > > Greetings, > Stefan > ==== > How did you get it? > With 1.19-6 when I input X*COS(X) and press INTVX I get COS(X) + > X*SIN(X) Can anybody then explain to me, why I (using ROM 1.19-6) get this: INT(Xt*COS(Xt),Xt,X) ?????? WhatÇs wrong here? Is it my flags? ==== You have got a point there. I agree. Just sticking my nose in. Stan >> >> I'm not quite sure, if this is know already, but I just wanted to let >> you know that 1.19-6 adds a wrong -1 when integrating the following >> antiderivative: x * cos(x) >> >> The correct answer is: x * sin(x) + cos(x) instead of x * sin(x) + >> cos(x) - 1 >> >> Greetings, >> Stefan >> Sorry, but you are a bit wrong yourself. AS a matter of fact, x * sin(x) + cos(x) + C is correct >for any constant, C. Your answer is wrong and the HP is right *if* the integral >is to be zero when x = 0. ==== if anyone is interested). It talks about a new HP scientific calc. I think its just junk but why would someone take the trouble? Here is My name is Cyrille de Br.8ebisson, I work for the HP Calculator division. Some of you may know my name as I was part of the Australian Calculator operation and was heavily involved in the development of the 49G, 39G and 40G as well HP is developing a new scientific calculator, and we would like to propose you to take part in this process as alpha and beta testers. I need to ask you to keep this information confidential, and if you are interested in participating in this program, or would like more information before taking a decision I would ask you to fill and return to me the attached Non Disclosure Agreement. If you sign this document, it means that you agree not to disclose anything about your involvement in this program for a duration of 2 years (but HP usually cancels such agreements at product launch). ==== Either this is a nasty hoax or you just shot down your chance to do beta Greg S > if anyone is interested). It talks about a new HP scientific calc. I > think its just junk but why would someone take the trouble? Here is My name is Cyrille de Br.8ebisson, I work for the HP Calculator > division. > Some > of you may know my name as I was part of the Australian Calculator > operation > and was heavily involved in the development of the 49G, 39G and 40G as > well HP is developing a new scientific calculator, and we would like to > propose > you to take part in this process as alpha and beta testers. I need to ask you to keep this information confidential, and if you > are > interested in participating in this program, or would like more > information > before taking a decision I would ask you to fill and return to me the > attached Non Disclosure Agreement. If you sign this document, it means that you agree not to disclose > anything > about your involvement in this program for a duration of 2 years (but > HP > usually cancels such agreements at product launch). > ==== > if anyone is interested). It talks about a new HP scientific calc. I > think its just junk but why would someone take the trouble? Here is > Not only you blew up all your chances of working with HP ever again if there was any beta testing on its way, but I would also say that you're A moron. I would say it twice actually. behavior (even if legally you can do it) is why in today's life lawyers have to take into account every single details of day to day living and people like you prevent things to get better HP has in the past contacted people to test their product. I did so when I people are like you and usually this practice can work. You just need one asshole to blew up the whole thing and stop companies in involving people for future development project. You idiot PS: you idiot. you Bush! (ok this may be a bit too hard :) ==== I hate to say it but that really was a dumb move...u do know that Cyrille posts on these boards, right..... ==== it posted anywhere? If not, how would I go about doing it? Any chance of getting the source code? TIA, Jim ==== Just want to clear up my newbie doubts: 1) Whats up with the hidden directory thing?? HOw can i access it?? 2)while graphing a function, how can i see numbers showing the length of the coordinate system? what i mean is, a want to view a scale on the graph. 3) advatages of using libeval? 4) examples of good libeval use. 5) none linear systems with over 1 answer, any way to get all the answers?? (havent found a way to do that, not even using solvesys) 6) Units in equation, how do i put them in, get the answer in apropiate units? [AC] ==== > Just want to clear up my newbie doubts: 1) Whats up with the hidden > directory thing?? HOw can i access it?? Download the hide utility from http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=hide. It's very recommandable IMO, because many libs make annoying variables that I practically don't use. > 2)while graphing a function, how can i see numbers showing the length > of the coordinate system? what i mean is, a want to view a scale on > the graph. 3) advatages of using libeval? 4) examples of good libeval Somebody else has to answer that. I just press (x,y) or trace if I want to know the coordinate somewhere. > use. 5) none linear systems with over 1 answer, any way to get all > the answers?? (havent found a way to do that, not even using > solvesys) 6) Units in equation, how do i put them in, get the answer > in apropiate units? 5) Not sure. 6) Not sure, but if you put them in and calculate something, then the units still are right, automatically, aren't they? If I add 8 mm to 1 m, then I get 1008 mm, which is correct, right? You're welcome. Martin J ==== **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** HI Joseph ! Isn't 3 + 5 = 8 easier ? :-) Demo Fight the spam, click on the link! http://www.hostedscripts.com/scripts/antispam.html Fight Spam! Click Here! Joseph K. Horn p.92.8ae v diskusn.92m p[CapitalThorn].92sp.9evku > News flash! We interrupt this program for news of a mathematical > breakthrough! Is there any way to get 8 from 3 and 5? Yes! After years of profound > cogitation, I have finally discovered the mathematical function that takes 3 > and 5 as its inputs, and yields 8 as its output! Without further ado, here > it is: 10^((32097*LOG( 5 )+18562*LOG( 3 ))/34649) = 8 ... to 12 digits. We now return to the war, which is already in progress. -Joe- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ==== > HI Joseph ! Isn't 3 + 5 = 8 easier ? :-) I like 5*e^(222*pi*i) + 3*e^(888*pi*i). -- Al ==== > 10^((32097*LOG( 5 )+18562*LOG( 3 ))/34649) = 8 Funny thing, when I use a Ti-89 for the above, I get an answer of infinity... I do it on my 49g and I get 8. ... Now, which one to believe... the answers are so close... (in approximate mode ti89 returns 8. as well, but in the default modes of auto and exact, infinity is always the result) -- Al ==== I am now completely conviced that you are seriously twisted! :-) > News flash! We interrupt this program for news of a mathematical > breakthrough! > > Is there any way to get 8 from 3 and 5? Yes! After years of profound > cogitation, I have finally discovered the mathematical function that takes 3 > and 5 as its inputs, and yields 8 as its output! Without further ado, here > it is: > > 10^((32097*LOG( 5 )+18562*LOG( 3 ))/34649) = 8 > > ... to 12 digits. > > We now return to the war, which is already in progress. > > -Joe- > > ==== > I am now completely conviced that you are seriously > twisted! :-) > Funny thing, when I use a Ti-89 for the above, I get > an answer of infinity... I do it on my 49g and I get 8. ... Both are right. Infinity is just an 8 that's been 90-degrees twisted. Seriously. -Joe- ==== > News flash! We interrupt this program for news of a mathematical > breakthrough! > No breakthroughs here, just some rarities, or at least overly-specialized programs turned into a puzzle. (a) What is the purpose of this program? << LOG 2 LOG / 2 RND >> (b) What does this one do? Bonus question: where did that constant come from? << -> a b 'ABS(LOG(a/b)*3986.31371382)' ->NUM >> Bill -- in Toronto, Canada, home of useless trivia -- ==== > (a) What is the purpose of this program? << LOG 2 LOG / 2 RND >> 2^n. The program returns n. > (b) What does this one do? Bonus question: where did that constant > come from? << -> a b 'ABS(LOG(a/b)*3986.31371382)' ->NUM >> You seem to like music ;-) The above program calculates how many cents large an interval is, given the pitch ratio a/b - the constant is 1200/LOG(2), although the last digit is wrong in your formula. * For those of you who don't play around with frequencies and music, the two terms is explained like this; A musical interval is the distance between any two pitches in perceived pitch-space - an octave for example. A cent equals 1/100th of a half-step, while an half-step is the smallest interval between two notes on a piano. There are 12 half-steps in an octave, and so one octave is equal to 1200 cents. ==== Bill Markwick scripsit: > (a) What is the purpose of this program? > << LOG 2 LOG / 2 RND >> Log base 2, rounded to 2 digits, perhaps for a binary money system? > (b) What does this one do? Bonus question: where did > that constant come from? << -> a b 'ABS(LOG(a/b)*3986.31371382)' ->NUM >> The constant is the log of 10^1200 base 2 (approximately), or 1200/LOG(2). The program tells how many digits are in |a-b|^1200. Do I win a cookie? -Joe- ==== Filer1 or Filer2 (both smaller than 2 KB) you'll have the most comfortable file manager. No restriction anymore in making HOME backups. These have both, date and time append as follows, provided the system flags -41 and -42 are clear (default, US-format): HOME 02/27/03 2:15P with exactly the spaces indicated and if made the 27th of february at 2:15PM. Clearly, because of the name's length you see normally only the date, the rest of the line displays the size of your HOME backup. However, you quickly uncover the time with the VAR key. A Port0 backup has a similar format. After a crash, only those files from Port0 will be restored from a Port0 backup which had been lost. Clearly, absolut safety for these backups is granted only in Port2. Now you can quietly go on holiday leaving your 49 at home without batteries even if your holidays are veryvery long :-) - Wolfgang ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools/ PS. I got a small code from Jonathan B. which sets his HP49-emulator nicely in COMA mode. But it refused to work on the real HP49 and put my baby in a state which is even worse than a TTRM. But meanwhile I have sufficient experience to bring it back to life from the deepest coma :-) ==== > Ok, I've moved the whole kit and kaboodle to a new web hosting company > (pair.com), and it seems MUCH faster than it ever was. Hopefully it'll be > universally available now (or at least planetarily). I don't think the problem was your isp but rather the nasty sql virus that's running around atacking web servers and the main dns machines. Steve Sousa <8bCX9.6585$Sv3.647345@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <3JJZ9.128$8A1.94307@reader1.news.jippii.net> ==== >Anybody *other* than in France having trouble accessing either >www.holyjoe.net or www.godaddy.com? If not, it's merely a French >Connection problem. Ok, I've moved the whole kit and kaboodle to a new web hosting company > (pair.com), and it seems MUCH faster than it ever was. Hopefully it'll be > universally available now (or at least planetarily). That works OK for me now... -- ----- > Et puis qu'est-ce-que tu viens faire sur fufe ? Tenter de discuter avec des gens un peu iontelligents. Mais ils sont rares sur fufe. -+- Dr B in GNU : Ion fait s'qu'ion peut avec s'qu'ion a. -+- <8bCX9.6585$Sv3.647345@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <3JJZ9.128$8A1.94307@reader1.news.jippii.net> <1043891953.631901@newsfront2> ==== Ok, I've moved the whole kit and kaboodle to a new web hosting company > (pair.com), and it seems MUCH faster than it ever was. Hopefully it'll be > universally available now (or at least planetarily). I don't think the problem was your isp but rather the nasty sql virus that's > running around atacking web servers and the main dns machines. I really don't think the root DNS servers and the .net DNS servers ran Microsoft SQL Server... ;) -- ----- Un forum peut r.8epondre .88 plusieurs besoins .88 la fois Ici, le groupe des d.8ebutants d.8epasse en nombre le groupe des utilisateur middle-class ce qui provoque in.8evitablement des tensions. -+- EF - Guide du Neuneu d'Usenet - La lutte des middle classes -+- ==== I can finally reach your website from the Netherlands without problems. Thanx, Arnold >>Anybody *other* than in France having trouble accessing either >>www.holyjoe.net or www.godaddy.com? If not, it's merely a French >>Connection problem. Ok, I've moved the whole kit and kaboodle to a new web hosting company >(pair.com), and it seems MUCH faster than it ever was. Hopefully it'll be >universally available now (or at least planetarily). New web address: http://holyjoe.net (reorganized into folders) -Joe- > ==== i can access it too from the czech republic. nice :) > > I can finally reach your website from the Netherlands without > problems. -- fuf (fuf@mageo.cz) ==== when i do ON-F3 in which way I can preseve my font (I use number 6)? I hope the question is clear,sorry for my english tnx to anyone Bye!! ==== > when i do ON-F3 in which way I can preseve my font > (I use number 6)? Either store << FONT6 ->FONT >> as 'STARTUP' in your HOME directory, or ass those two commands to your STARTUP program if you already have one. Hope this helps! -Joe- ==== This is a lot for someone like me who have only read about SysRPL and haven't started programming yet. Some questions: What does =AtUserStack do? How do I fetch Ans? (I was trying some simple test with SYSEVAL) (to create a one char string from value in Ans:) ( Ans Coerce #>Chr Chr>$ Ans_Sto ) (as I havent found Ans yet I just tested with:) ( Null$ Ans_Sto@ ) (this worked - (should probably be StoAns@Drp...) end sidestep) The code after LEN starting with onestring is it for parsing? The help string is it found by the system scanning for the end of the code after LEN? When I tried to understand the ApletFrame source there was a lot of things like this that is very hard to understand... Is the CK1&Dispatch used by the parser to know the type of argument? This is also something that I need to figure out how the parser knows the number of arguments for a function. Does LEN work in a program? What does StoAns@Drp and StoAns@ do? If they do what I think they do why store_and_fetch? Is impossible to make a function like STRING(Text)? What is the command notation? I thought that if one can't make a function like STRING a command like: ->STRING Ans;Text or ->STRING NoteText;Text might work like other commands (->GROB SUB etc.) If it is possible to add new string variables like: Text1 Text2 then much string handling can be done as it seems many built in functions work on strings (at least on the 38G): NoteText+NoteText Size(NoteText) Sub Ans;NoteText;1;1 NoteText==NoteText also strings can be placed in lists like: NoteText|>L1(1) Why is it possible to do: Sub Ans;NoteText;1;1 but not: Sub L1(1);NoteText;1;1 If you make some string variables (like NoteText) will this work then: SUB Text1;NoteText;1;1 ->STRING Text1;Text2*3more text Ronny ==== > > I'm not sure if I got it right, > but... > >> Quick question - I recently purchased a Chotkeh (sp?) Mechanical >> Engineering PE Exam Application Card for the HP 48GX/SX. >> Long story short, it's been 12 years or so since I bought the calc, >> and 8 since I have been out of school. Need to pass my PE this time >> around and wanted some help remembering equations. >> Then I find out it's not fully compatible with the SX - not enough >> memory, or something - but I can keep pulling out of port 1 and into >> port 2 if I want. > That's possible, if the PE application creates large data structures. > Or did you try to copy its contents to RAM? > This is not the way for HP-48 application cards, > since those application pacs are designed to run from the card > directly. > > BTW: The SX has 32K RAM built-in, the GX has 128K built-in. > >> I seem to remember having memory cards at some point that can be >> merged with the calc memory. Would this be a possible solution other >> than popping the card out of slots 1 & 2? > *RAM* cards can be merged. > If you have an 128K RAM card, regardless if in port 1 or 2, > you can merge the appriorate port with main memory. > You can even merge both ports if you have RAM cards in both ports. > This applies to the SX only, the GX can only merge port 1. > > > Raymond Yes, it has to do with the large data structures and the 128k. My question then becomes, if I can locate a 128k data card (currently I do not possess one, I only have 2 32k data cards from way back) and merge it, would this possibly allow for full functionality of this particular application card? -- Dan Hosek (remove 'remove' to reach me direct) ==== I would like the HP49G to display commas in large numbers (my 32S does this), but I cannot find the flag for this. For example: 1234567.00 as 1,234,567.00 Is this available on the 49G Aubrey. ==== > I would like the HP49G to display commas in large numbers (my 32S does > this), but I cannot find the flag for this. > For example: 1234567.00 as 1,234,567.00 I've also wanted that, and asked the same question 2 weeks ago, only (use google-groups, I recommend that!) http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm =435f61d8.0301172103.2460f745%40posting.google.com&rnum=3&prev=/groups%3Fq%3 D hp49%2Bthousand%2Bseparator%26num%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3 D UTF-8%26safe%3Doff I recommend you also assign some user keys to do the task. I've made F1 = << STD >> display. F2 = << 9 ENG >> F3 = << 6 ENG >> F4 = << 3 ENG >> This way I myself, very fast can determine the number of important decimals. Martin J. ==== My roommate loaned me his HP 49G to solve some integrals that my TI-89 can't. How do I solve indefinite integrals on this calc? I don't know which arguments and in which order to pass them on the command line and when I use the equation writer and leave the limits of integration blank it won't work. ==== i've used the equation writer, but instead of using the definite integral (on the button), hit the <4> for the calculus menu, choose option 1 then option 8, called INTVX and enter the equation in the parentheses. -- matt > My roommate loaned me his HP 49G to solve some integrals that my TI-89 > can't. How do I solve indefinite integrals on this calc? I don't know which > arguments and in which order to pass them on the command line and when I > use the equation writer and leave the limits of integration blank it won't > work. ==== > My roommate loaned me his HP 49G to solve some integrals that my TI-89 > can't. How do I solve indefinite integrals on this calc? I don't know which > arguments and in which order to pass them on the command line and when I > use the equation writer and leave the limits of integration blank it won't > work. Why don't you ask your roommate? :-) About the limits of integration in EQW, just delete the placeholders. -- Bhuvanesh ==== > My roommate loaned me his HP 49G to solve some integrals that my TI-89 > can't. How do I solve indefinite integrals on this calc? I don't know which > arguments and in which order to pass them on the command line and when I > use the equation writer and leave the limits of integration blank it won't > work. Enter the integrand function, with X as variable and use INTVX command to get an antiderivative, or enter integrand and variable on stack and use RISCH command. If the HP can't integratesome integrand function like 'F(X)', you will get back something like 'INT(F(Xt),Xt,X)', where Xt is a dummy variable made up by the HP and X was your original variable. Then you will have to try some other method, like integration by parts or substitution. ==== A quick and easy way is to enter your expression in terms of x, then use the INTVX command in the CALC menu. > My roommate loaned me his HP 49G to solve some integrals that my TI-89 > can't. How do I solve indefinite integrals on this calc? I don't know which > arguments and in which order to pass them on the command line and when I > use the equation writer and leave the limits of integration blank it won't > work. ==== Can one use units in the HP49 equation writer like you could with the HP48? No matter what I try I can't enter them in the HP49. thanks for your considerations, Caesar Garcia ==== How do I manage the I/O options in the HP49, analogous to I/O on the 48? It doesn't seem to be documented. (or maybe I'm a blind old git....) Jim ==== www.hpcalc.org Jim F schrieb im Newsbeitrag > How do I manage the I/O options in the HP49, analogous to I/O > on the 48? It doesn't seem to be documented. (or maybe I'm a blind old > git....) > Jim ==== I've been there, but have found nothing in the HP docs about I/O on the 49, and searching hpcalc.org hasn't yielded anything either. How about another clue? Jim > www.hpcalc.org Jim F schrieb im Newsbeitrag > How do I manage the I/O options in the HP49, analogous to on the 48? It doesn't seem to be documented. (or maybe I'm a blind old > git....) > Jim ==== > How can you solve inequalties in the hp 49g? > stuff like 2(x+5)<10. > what about cuadratic inequalties? (2x(x+2)>0) Use SOLVE, and be sure to have ROM v 1.19.6. ==== I'm not quite sure, if this is know already, but I just wanted to let > you know that 1.19-6 adds a wrong -1 when integrating the following > antiderivative: x * cos(x) The correct answer is: x * sin(x) + cos(x) instead of x * sin(x) + > cos(x) - 1 It's only a constant difference (1), so how does it matter? A pity that in class these days, if you don't get exactly what the book says it should be, you think you've it all wrong ==== > I'm not quite sure, if this is know already, but I just wanted to let > you know that 1.19-6 adds a wrong -1 when integrating the following > antiderivative: x * cos(x) The correct answer is: x * sin(x) + cos(x) instead of x * sin(x) + > cos(x) - 1 > > It's only a constant difference (1), so how does it matter? > A pity that in class these days, if you don't get exactly what the book says > it should be, you think you've it all wrong > BTW, the HP40G (I think CAS version is comparable to 1.19-1 of the 49G) gives cos(x)+x*sin(x). above answer is not wrong. Axel ==== ok, apparently the first post didn't work right with the attachments, let me try again: when i enter: ?(1,2,(1-Cos(x))/(x-Sin(x)),x) it simply spits back the same integral, except that it converts the x variable to xt and rearranges the orders a little bit, like this: ?(1,2,(Cos(xt)-1)/(Sin(xt)-xt),xt) any help anyone could provide on this would be great. again i'm using the HP 49 with ROM version 1.18. thank you! > I've recently upgraded from an HP 48G to an HP 49 with ROM version 1.18 > and i'm having some trouble. When I try to integrate, whether definite or indefinite, I sometimes get > something strange returned. For example: yeilds the answer: Does anybody have any ideas what is going on here? > ==== Matthew Senn schrieb im Newsbeitrag > ok, apparently the first post didn't work right with the attachments, let me > try again: when i enter: > ?(1,2,(1-Cos(x))/(x-Sin(x)),x) it simply spits back the same integral, except that it converts the x > variable to xt and rearranges the orders a little bit, like this: ?(1,2,(Cos(xt)-1)/(Sin(xt)-xt),xt) any help anyone could provide on this would be great. again i'm using the > HP 49 with ROM version 1.18. My HP49G (with ROM 1.19-6) gives the correct answer LN((SIN(2)-2)/(SIN(1)-1)). I recommend you update your calc to the most recent ROM version. Roman > thank you! > I've recently upgraded from an HP 48G to an HP 49 with ROM version 1.18 > and i'm having some trouble. When I try to integrate, whether definite or indefinite, I sometimes get > something strange returned. For example: yeilds the answer: Does anybody have any ideas what is going on here? > ==== Would anybody like to share any recent opinions with Klotz Memory Cards. They look like quite a good deal. Tom ==== > Would anybody like to share any recent opinions with Klotz Memory Cards. > They look like quite a good deal. I bought a Klotz 2mb card about 3 or 4 months ago, and I'm a *very* satisfied customer. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== > As for your criticism: > > The equation r = F(n+1)/F(n)=F(n)/F(n-1) is simply false for > >> each n > 1 Of course it is! That's why I said as n tends to infinity. With this formulation you would not pass any university examination in > math. Learning linguistic discipline is a bacis task in math education, > and the most difficult to learn. What could clearly be said should > clearly be said. It's almost always shorter than any confusing text, in > particular in the derivation of the formula under discussion. In my 1st > reply I even accepted your confusing text and tried politely to correct > it. If I'd known your arrogance I wouldn't have done that. Honnestly Wolfgang, I should it is now time for you to get drunk with whatever you can find. Or as we say in French: Mets de l'huile Don't be so uptight! university professor in math would have uttered such stupid things even > if he is totally drunk. I always encourage my students in math and info > to use graphic calculators. And many students are happy doing this. ==== > ... Learning linguistic discipline is a bacis task in math education, > and the most difficult to learn. What could clearly be said should > clearly be said. It's almost always shorter than any confusing text, in > particular in the derivation of the formula under discussion. > Honnestly Wolfgang, I should it is now time for you to get drunk with > whatever you can find. Or as we say in French: Mets de l'huile Perhaps I should, but I don't know with whom. None of my colleges is drinking (unless it is of first quality and payed by others :-) I hope some day *we* will do that together. If people would argue as CC did with the complex number sequence f defined by f(n+2)=f(n)+ i*f(n+1) and f(0)=f(1)=1 they would fall into a trap. There is an immense amount of software made by software engineers without adequate math background :-). hidden bug in your filer, probably more difficult to find than the hidden poison-gas rockets in the Irak :-) ==== Is it a new Mini-challenge for RPL programmers? Or is it mathematical recreation for number aficionados? It's BOTH! ===== BACKGROUND ===== Everybody knows about the famous, fabulous Fibonacci sequence that starts like this: 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 ... Each Fibonacci number is obtained by adding the previous two Fibonacci numbers; for example, the 55 was obtained by adding 21+34. Therefore, the next Fibonacci number is 34+55 which is 89. If we call F(N) the Nth Fibonacci number, then the recursive formula is: F(0) = 0 F(1) = 1 F(N) = 1*F(N-2) + 1*F(N-1) Why are those 1*s in there? Because of what's to follow... stay tuned... One of the interesting things about Fibonacci numbers is the ratio of consecutive terms, F(N)/F(N-1): 1/1 = 1 2/1 = 2 3/2 = 1.5 5/3 = 1.66666666666... 8/5 = 1.6 13/8 = 1.625 21/13 = 1.6153846153846... 34/21 = 1.6190476190476... 55/34 = 1.6176470588235... 89/55 = 1.6181818181818... As you can see, the successive ratios alternate between getting bigger and getting smaller, approaching some number as a limit. That number is called the golden ratio (or golden mean), which is exactly equal to (1+sqrt(5))/2, approximately 1.6180339887498948482... Fibonacci numbers and their ratios are well known. Less well known are Pell numbers and their ratios. The Pell sequence starts like this: 1 2 5 12 29 70 169 408 985 ... Each Pell number is obtained by adding *twice* the previous number to the number before that; for example, the 70 is obtained by doubling 29 and then adding 12. Therefore, the next Pell number is 408 + 2*985 which is 2378. If we call P(N) the Nth Pell number, then the recursive formula is: P(0) = 0 P(1) = 1 P(N) = 1*P(N-2) + 2*P(N-1) Note well: this is identical to the definition of the Fibonacci sequence, except instead of 1* and 1* in the last line, this one has 1* and 2*. The ratio of consecutive Pell numbers exhibits a behavior similar to what we saw with the Fibonacci numbers above. Successive P(N)/P(N-1) are: 2/1 = 2 5/2 = 2.5 12/5 = 2.4 29/12 = 2.416666666666666... 70/29 = 2.41379310344827586... 169/70 = 2.414285714285714... 408/169 = 2.41420118343195... 985/408 = 2.4142156862745... 2378/985 = 2.414213197969543... Does the fractional part look familiar? It should. The process is approaching the limit of sqrt(2)+1. Now, suppose we generalize this. Instead of 1* or 2*, use X* and Y* in the definition of the sequence. Would the ratio of consecutive terms still approach a limit? Yes. Can a User4 RPL program be written to find that limit? Yes. Can *you* write such a program? Yes. Can you write the *best* program? Maybe! ===== THE MINI-CHALLENGE ===== Write a User RPL program that Generalizes the above process for the Generalized Sequence, namely, it takes X and Y as inputs, and returns the ratio of G(N+1)/G(N) as N approaches infinity, where G(N) is defined by the recursive formula: G(0) = 0 G(1) = 1 G(N) = X*G(N-2) + Y*G(N-1) Input: X and Y Output: limit of G(N)/G(N-1) as N approaches infinity. Examples: Input: 1 1 <--- the Fibonacci sequence Output: (1+sqrt(5))/2 Input: 1 2 <--- the Pell sequence Output: 1+sqrt(2) Input: 2 1 <--- the sequence { 1 1 3 5 11 21 43 ... } Output: 2 Input: 2 2 <--- the sequence { 1 2 6 16 44 120 ... } Output: 1+sqrt(3) There will be two winners: the smallest HP48 User RPL program that returns the correct answer in *decimal* form, and the smallest HP49 User RPL program that returns the correct answer in *exact* form. Happy Programming! -Joe- ==== The word is incorrect information, if that is so. False implies that I intended to mislead. which is not true. I went to the HP site as I did tonight and it is not available from HP on their Website. They have the 48 G but not the 49G. In any case, I have an unused 49G available for sale. > I have an mint condition, UNUSED, out of the box HP49G and separate > Connectivity Kit and all documentation along with the original packing > FOR > SALE. This may be a last chance thing as it is no longer available at > HP. False information. Will ship only to US. I purchased this because it was the only RPN calculator left besides the > 12C > but after reading the manual, I realized it would take too much of my time > to become proficient at. You can respond here with information that will allow me to contact you > directly. > Barry Shaklan, M.D. ==== I can use by HP49G for units the same mode as the HP48 mode by Flag 117. I read this at the moment in the handbock!! Hans Joachim (.de) ==== flag 117. Oh that is the best tip. thanks! be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== > > what does that mean? What's my fault? Check that you are in exact mode *before* entering your function. (MODE -> CAS -> uncheck Approx ) ==== > Would you buy an HP48GX today? Is it too slow? Or would you buy a 49g? (If cost wasn't a factor) Is there anything better for University Sciences/Engineering? I have a 49g, so I would buy a 48gx. It seems more practical to use for number crunching and doing calculations because of its better keyboard and other hardware features. A 48gx could replace my 49g if I put more memory on it and install AGL48, erable, and all those other goodies. -- Al ==== > before answering... may I ask what ROM do you have installed? > Qith ROM 1.19-6 I hae the following behaviour: I also use ROM 1.19-6 // Jocke ==== > Here is what I did: > :2:FOO.DIR ARCHIVE > Go into Filer, go into Port2, Right Arrow on FOO.DIR, right Arrow on '' > directory. Could see the name just fine. > Now, copy FOO.DIR into HOME directory This is not the problem. Well, this is exactly the problem. You should re-read my previous post > view > is completely unclear to me. I use your original filer for that I was accessing the *hidden dir* (which is a inacurrate name for the empty-name directory, as in a backup it is visible) > This is the problem on my new 49 with the original ROM 19-6. I even > deleted > of HOME. in a backup. Obviously, the Filer doesn't let you enter in the HOME hidden directory (not inside a backup) which is normal. However, using the Right Arrow key, or selecting the Null-name directory inside a backup let you get inside it without any problem. In the case I've described earlier, I see (in the TREE view) PORT0 PORT1 PORT2 HOME |-FOO.DIR | |-CASDIR | -'' -CASDIR I just have to highlight '', press either Right Arrow or Enter on it, and I will get inside the null-name directory. In the browser itself, it would look like (inside the FOO.DIR directory, either saved in HOME or PORT2): memory: 130000 -------------------------- CASDIR '' Again, just highlighting the '' name, and pressing RightArrow let me see the content of this directory without problem. So I don't understand where your problem lies, as I've tried on various ROM, none of them has problem you decribe: I mean using the built-in Filer. After making a complete cleaning of the user memory to kill all possible > viruses, I now get a different behavior: No warmstart anymore if trying > be > ended only by a warmstart. again, a *normal* calculator doesn't present this kind of behavior. If you could reproduce it from an empt calculator or tell me exactly what external libraries are required to produce this crash. Do you get this crash from the normal filer or using your Filer2 and Filer3 program? This remains definitely a problem of my other 49 which is older but ok. Yes, but does it crash or hang your machine? I can't reproduce what you describe. I'm starting to think that the problem you have and the nullname one are both related and seems to be present on your machine only. ==== > > I'm starting to think that the problem you have and the nullname one are > both related and seems to be present on your machine only. > I made a backup of the Home dir with the ARCHIVE command in port 2. Then open the filer (the built-in, no WR's one) and go to port 2, then right arrow in the home backup and again in the hidden dir (it's backup). There I get a warmstart. It happens every time that I try. Saludos Jorge M. Valenzani ==== I don't have any problems accessing the '' directory in a port 2 archive. I can see EMC.cfg, Alarms, UserKeys, and UserKeys.CRC. Using ROM 1.19-6. Thomas > > >>I'm starting to think that the problem you have and the nullname one are >>both related and seems to be present on your machine only. > > > I made a backup of the Home dir with the ARCHIVE command in port 2. > Then open the filer (the built-in, no WR's one) and go to port 2, then > right arrow in the home backup and again in the hidden dir (it's > backup). There I get a warmstart. It happens every time that I try. > > > Saludos > Jorge M. Valenzani ==== > I don't have any problems accessing the '' directory > in a port 2 archive. I can see EMC.cfg, Alarms, UserKeys, > and UserKeys.CRC. That means you don't play my TETRI. a pitty. It will create a new topic on your APPS browser, called Games, which itself is a nice browser :-) It follows, the phenomenum probably depends on some flag setting. But even this is diffcult to find out. Perhaps I should send you my STARTUP. Very unlikely that it depends on the attached libs. - Wolfgang ==== > I don't have any problems accessing the '' directory > in a port 2 archive. I can see EMC.cfg, Alarms, UserKeys, > and UserKeys.CRC. -27 (complex number display), -90 (CHOOSE:mini font) -95 (algebraic mode, I would prefer if cleared in default!) Just press RESET on page 2 of the menu set by FLAGS from the menu you get with letftshift-hold MODE (save your own flags unless you have them in your STARTUP). Then enter the builtin filer and your HOME backup clearly a flag setting problem. All user flags should be reset. If it still works, then my only hypotheses is that it depends on which day you loaded ROM 19-6 and from where. It is unlikely that it is a hardware bug on my and Jorge's calc. Clearly, I detached *all* libs before starting my experiments, whith ON&C and holding down the Backspace key. - Wolfgang ==== > I made a backup of the Home dir with the ARCHIVE command in port 2. > Then open the filer (the built-in, no WR's one) and go to port 2, then > right arrow in the home backup and again in the hidden dir (it's > backup). There I get a warmstart. It happens every time that I try. What are you flag settings and libraries that you are loading ? I can't reproduce it. Only yourself and Wolfgang reported this bug so far. ==== > > This is what I did: > > - purged everything from all ports, > - pressed ON-A-F, > - entered ARCHIVE(:2:ABC) > - used the built-in filer to browse to port2->ABC->'' > without any problems. All unnecessary. You did not the really important: RESET the flags (these are reset by a warmstart only partially). An affect of flags was considered also in JYA's last posting. - Wolfgang ==== This is what I did: > - pressed ON-A-F, > All unnecessary. You did not the really important: RESET the flags What are you talking about? ON-A-F is the most sure way to reset your flags. I did what you say to do: RESET all flags. Even if I reset the flag I can't reproduce any problems you describe (entering library doesn't work anymore and warmstart when entering empty name directory). On a side note, I don't see in ANY way how adding in the 1.19-7 the search capabilities could affect browsing library. I didn't touch any part of that code. And when you see how modular the filer source code is, changing one thing isn't going to affect something else ==== Wolfgang Rautenberg schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I don't have any problems accessing the '' directory > in a port 2 archive. I can see EMC.cfg, Alarms, UserKeys, > and UserKeys.CRC. [..] > Very unlikely that it depends on the attached libs. > Here I have to jump in. Of course the stability of your calc depends on (amongst other reasons) the installed libs, and what they do in the system! A small program bug can cause unpredictable results, which can come up long time later than the cause itself. I'm quite sure that's very difficult to *know* at some point if the environment has some invalid pointers, or configuration information. So the first thing to check such behaviour is with a clean calc, *without* your bells and whistles (*Man), and *without* Nosy or any other external libs. A clean calc is one with empty ports, and empty HOME (ON-A-F) BTW: Detaching all libs isn't sufficient, of course. As I said above, the environment bugged by a crazy program doesn't always repair itself through a warmstart. Flag settings may have influence to certain behaviour, but the points mentioned above have higher priority, so they have to checked first. Here I jump out of the discussion. Raymond ==== Wolfgang Rautenberg schrieb: > Very unlikely that it depends on the attached libs. > Of course the stability of your calc depends > on (amongst other reasons) the installed libs, > and what they do in the system! I'm using only libs written by experts :-). But clearly, for safety, all libs should be detached in the strong sense (the LIB key shows the port-entries only). > and *without* Nosy or any other external libs. > A clean calc is one with empty ports, and empty HOME (ON-A-F) I use the 49 long enough and had to overcome many problems. What you say here seems to be exaggerated. Meeting your condition is nearly impossible on a 49 with already over a Megabyte of tools. Hence, I ask JYA: Doing ON&A&F, with equally detaching all libs with backspace and Port0 and Port1 empty, can then still remain any viruses in the RAM and is this not as good as cleaning the 49 completely, Port2 included? > Flag settings may have influence to certain behaviour, As a matter of fact, they have a strong influence on the behaviour of the ROM in the HP49, not only on what you see. I'm not talking on the CAS here. But this is an own subject for later discussion. ==== This is what I did: - purged everything from all ports, - pressed ON-A-F, - entered ARCHIVE(:2:ABC) - used the built-in filer to browse to port2->ABC->'' without any problems. Thomas > >>I don't have any problems accessing the '' directory >>in a port 2 archive. I can see EMC.cfg, Alarms, UserKeys, >>and UserKeys.CRC. > > > -27 (complex number display), > -90 (CHOOSE:mini font) > -95 (algebraic mode, I would prefer if cleared in default!) > > Just press RESET on page 2 of the menu set by FLAGS from the menu > you get with letftshift-hold MODE (save your own flags unless you have > them in your STARTUP). Then enter the builtin filer and your HOME backup > clearly a flag setting problem. All user flags > should be reset. If it still works, then my only hypotheses is that it > depends on which day you loaded ROM 19-6 and from where. It is unlikely > that it is a hardware bug on my and Jorge's calc. Clearly, I detached > *all* libs before starting my experiments, whith ON&C > and holding down the Backspace key. > > - Wolfgang ==== > Hence, I ask JYA: Doing ON&A&F, with equally detaching all libs with > backspace and Port0 and Port1 empty, can then still remain any viruses > in the RAM and is this not as good as cleaning the 49 completely, Port2 > included? No... Except if you have your STARTUP file calling them. ==== > I have downloaded everything that looked interesting but haven't found > any info on applet structure except source code applet frame(s). They > are commented but it's still hard for me to understand the overall > structure and how user functions interact with the algebraic parser > and the compiler. A couple of links: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/museum/personalsystems/0026/inde x.html There's a good description of the aplet structure. Compare the parts mentioned with the aplet frame. As to the user functions: In the following doc, Tim Wessman explains step by step how to write functions for the HP39G (also valid for the HP38G, mutatis mutandis :) http://www.hpcalc.org/hp39/pc/advapletprgrm.zip Tim also refers the reader to this vital aplet by JYA: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp39/pc/funcaplet.zip [BTW, Tim, still thinking of your data manager, it's just that you don't need it till November, right? ;-] May I suggest you start writing simple RPL aplets first? You really do not *need* to know how the parser works to start programming. If what you need to know is, for example, how to make HELPWITH display a help text for your commands, keep in mind that the answer you'd receive is something like this: The '38G uses the prompt property field of '48 macros for containing the help string displayed by HELPWITH. Maybe someone would post sample code (like the one I posted to your other thread), but that's all. I mean: are you ready to follow that? Anyway, try asking what you want to do, not what you want to know! :) HPCC #1046 ==== i have a hp 48GX. please could somebody tell me how i could use variables in matrix arithmetic . it is urgent please because i have an exam tomorrow and i really need it! ==== > please could somebody tell me how i could use variables in matrix > arithmetic . > it is urgent please because i have an exam tomorrow and i really need it! In my HP49, I just enter a matrix and when it comes to the variable I enter it this way: Ça+5Ç for example... Then I can find determinants and use RREF etc. etc., with no problems. It is important that you begin pressing right-shift + O/eqw and write the variable, followed by the same right-shift + O/eqw. Good luck tomorrow. Martin J. ==== Same applies for me. Santiago Beraza >> please could somebody tell me how i could use variables in matrix >> arithmetic . >> it is urgent please because i have an exam tomorrow and i really need it! >In my HP49, I just enter a matrix and when it comes to the variable I enter >it this way: >Ça+5Ç for example... Then I can find determinants and use RREF etc. etc., >with no problems. It is important that you begin pressing right-shift + O/eqw and write the >variable, followed by the same right-shift + O/eqw. Good luck tomorrow. Martin J. ==== I think so. I have same effect on my HP48G when I press ON key for a long time. Vojtech Sazel jochen p.92se v diskusn.92m pr.92spevku when I turn ON the HP49G I can see for a short time vertically white > lines in the display. > Is that normal? > By my HP48 there is not so an effect. > Whats by your? Hans Joachim (Ger) --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ==== I agree some form of equation writer that mimicks how we work on paper is the ideal form of entry, with RPN for the comands. Again as always this is just my opinion. Stan > Actually in my experience, RPN has worked better for me on complex >> calculations. On my TI-89, I'll enter an expression and use lot's of >> parenthesis and soon I'm scrolling to the right to get the whole expression >> entered; invariably, I mess up the count and end up wasting a lot of time >> trying to scroll back and forth to find where things are unbalanced. This >> can be so darn frustrating. After a while you just want a better way and >> that's what RPN delivers. And that's what the EQW delivers, too. Personally, I used RPN only to >be able to see how the expression was being built up; now that I have >EQW, I don't use RPN much any more. And no, it's not that I don't know >how to use it (after all, I used it for quite a while before EQW was >released). ==== Would you buy an HP48GX today? Is it too slow? Or would you buy a 49g? (If cost wasn't a factor) Is there anything better for University Sciences/Engineering? Al... ==== > Would you buy an HP48GX today? Is it too slow? Or would you buy a 49g? (If cost wasn't a factor) Is there anything better for University Sciences/Engineering? I have a 49g, so I would buy a 48gx. It seems more practical to use for number crunching and doing calculations because of its better keyboard and other hardware features. A 48gx could replace my 49g if I put more memory on it and install AGL48, erable, and all those other goodies. -- Al ==== > Would you buy an HP48GX today? Is it too slow? Or would you buy a 49g? Having both a 48g+ (48gx without the expansion slot) and a 49g, if I had to do it over I'd buy a 48gx. The keyboard on the 49g really is bad enough to make a difference. > Is there anything better for University Sciences/Engineering? Nope. Neill McKay ==== > I have a 49g, so I would buy a 48gx. It seems more practical to use for > number crunching and doing calculations because of its better keyboard And what about a HP49G with the same keyboard quality as the HP48? I don't see how the 48G would be better at number crunching only... ==== >> I have a 49g, so I would buy a 48gx. It seems more practical to use for >> number crunching and doing calculations because of its better keyboard And what about a HP49G with the same keyboard quality as the HP48? I have yet to see this, I find that I can input data much faster with a plastic keyboard. It does not make such a big difference, only in speed of input, but it is critical sometimes. I suppose that if you modify the hp48 enough, it essentially becomes a hp49g. It is just that not all users are able to modify it enough to recreate one. You need a link cable to load the software (if you cannot get it from another calculator) and memory cards if you want the additional memory. > I don't see how the 48G would be better at number crunching only... I must admit that there is more software available for the 48. However, I was only comparing the calcs in the out of the box state. And I did not say that the 48g would be better at number crunching only, only that that is one of its strong points against the 49g. There is also the infrared port and expandability that is lacking in the 49g that makes the 48gx more attractive in some ways. -- Al ==== IMO The menu structure on the 48 is much better for general science and engineering students, and that the 48 is better tool for this type work for a number other reasons. Sure, the 49 has a bunch more in terms of esoteric numeric stuff (it looks like somebody got really happy using Numerical Recipes (Press et al) ) that is more of interest to math majors and computer science types. I enjoy playing with my 49 but if I had to do it all over again, I would still stick with the 48--I use the 48 with things like Alg48 and SmartROM for real-world work. I have a 49g, so I would buy a 48gx. It seems more practical to use for > number crunching and doing calculations because of its better keyboard And what about a HP49G with the same keyboard quality as the HP48? If HP's considering producing a new 49 type machine with 48 type hardware, they need to give some real thought to the the ease of access to certain menus and commands, and not wasting keyboard space with redundant menus (while burying others), or silly key mapping, or trying to over accomodate algebraic entry (leave that for the 39/40). The 49's key and menu stucture is a bit sloppy for quick number crunching and usefullness (and poplarity?) of Keyman, Appsman and other similar programs support this. I don't see how the 48G would be better at number crunching only... It just is... many practicing engineers like myself would attest to that. > ==== I have a TI-89, a 48GX, and a 49G. Trying to avoid too much of my own personal bias, I grab the 49G everytime. I often consider purchasing a spare 49G, as I am worried about what will happen when it finally dies. I don't feel the same need with the other two. The keyboard is stiff, but you get used to it. A few quick flag changes, and the 49G gets me smoothly through engineering studies. I advise that whatever you get, spend LOTS of time mastering it. You will have such an advantage in your university courses if you spend time practicing with your HP. Much of my college time is/was spent with my textbook, my 49G, and the Urroz books open side-by-side on my desk. Either calculator is powerful enough to get you through your doctoral studies (some say too powerful). I have had professors who raise their eyebrows at the 49G, but no one has ever denied its use to me. Many people in this newsgroup have claimed some instructors bar them from using the 49G. Notably, I've actually had a professor not allow my TI-89, but he said my 49G should be okay... :-) This was due to his familiarity with TI models, and total ignorance of the HP line (not necessarily a disadvantage). The CAS and Matrix writing of the 49G have gained me valuable points on exams by letting me check my answers. This quickly identifies small errors in your work, and a non-CAS system just couldn't do it. If we are comparing both calculators out of the box, the CAS on the 49G is a clear winner to me. Expanding your 48GX nullifies some of that (but takes its price up). With some good books and this newsgroup, you will never run out of support on either model. It's hard for me to believe that either calc is on the way out, as I always have up to the minute info from this group. Sorry for rambling. My $0.02. - Mitch > Would you buy an HP48GX today? Is it too slow? Or would you buy a 49g? (If cost wasn't a factor) Is there anything better for University Sciences/Engineering? Al... ==== I have a 49g, so I would buy a 48gx. It seems more practical to use for > number crunching and doing calculations because of its better keyboard And what about a HP49G with the same keyboard quality as the HP48? That would be a winner for me. I dearly miss the speed of my old HP41 keyboard. I don't see how the 48G would be better at number crunching only... > HP49 does suffer the slight penalty in speed due to the extra data types it can handle. Personaly I think the extra flexibility with the extra data types is worth the slight penalty. But if we're dreaming of an improved casing for the 49G why not dream of a slightly faster CPU. Even a simple doubling of speed would address 90% of the quibles and help shut-up the TI freaks. An IR port should only be introduced if it can be made compatible with all laptops. If I could find one I'd be tempted to get a 48GX but with the extra memory modules needed it would get costly. The 48G+ at 128kB just doesn't have the room for me. Stephen.N ==== > IMO The menu structure on the 48 is much better for general science and > engineering students, and that the 48 is better tool for this type work for > a number other reasons. Sure, the 49 has a bunch more in terms of esoteric > numeric stuff (it looks like somebody got really happy using Numerical > Recipes (Press et al) ) that is more of interest to math majors and computer > science types. I enjoy playing with my 49 but if I had to do it all over > again, I would still stick with the 48--I use the 48 with things like Alg48 > and SmartROM for real-world work. The HP49 has the same menu structure than the HP48. It just add some. All the original menus (MTH, PRG etc..) are there. Just wish the 49 would boot in RPN mode, get rid of the confusing algebraic and with soft-key menus only. I think only the bad HP49 keyboard makes a difference. All the HP48 can do, the HP49 will do it and even faster usually... ==== > I couldn't see a true engineer using a TI, IMO. And yet lots of engineers use 'em :-) -- Bhuvanesh ==== Funny thing here in the Netherlands.... The box had Dutch writing on it, a Dutch User Guide, Spanish Quick Guide, and English Advanced User Guide in it.. I'm working my way though one of the English PDF User Guides now. Anyone care to comment on the best english book to go along with this calculator? Al... ==== Definitely the two volumes by Urroz. Worth every penny!! ______________________ Science and Engineering Mathematics with the HP 49 G - Volumes 1 & 2 ____________________ www.greatunpublished.com I am not affiliated with Dr Urroz or this company in any way. Ask around - these books are invaluable. Funny thing here in the Netherlands.... The box had Dutch writing on it, a > Dutch User Guide, Spanish Quick Guide, and English Advanced User Guide in > it.. I'm working my way though one of the English PDF User Guides now. Anyone care to comment on the best english book to go along with this > calculator? Al... ==== and you might want to set your homepage to hpcalc.org ;-) > Definitely the two volumes by Urroz. Worth every penny!! > ______________________ > Science and Engineering Mathematics with the HP 49 G - Volumes 1 & 2 > ____________________ www.greatunpublished.com I am not affiliated with Dr Urroz or this company in any way. > Ask around - these books are invaluable. Funny thing here in the Netherlands.... The box had Dutch writing on it, > a > Dutch User Guide, Spanish Quick Guide, and English Advanced User Guide in > it.. I'm working my way though one of the English PDF User Guides now. Anyone care to comment on the best english book to go along with this > calculator? Al... ==== Paul Floyd schreef: > The last digit is zero. In fact, I'd estimate that around the last 1999 > digits are zeros (since each element in the factorial ending in a 0 adds > one zero, and each pair ending in 2 and 5 adds another zero, that makes > 2 zeros per 10 elements). You have the right idea but you need to count *all* factors of 5 (EG 25 contributes 2 fives ), since there are always more factors of 2 than 5 you can count fives so 5 gives 1999 zeros 25 gives an additional 399 125 gives 79 more 625 gives 15 3125 gives another 3 so the exact number of zeros at the end of 9999! is 2495 Peter ==== >> P.S. BTW, how long did the calculation of 9999! take on the >> calculator? I timed it, it didn't take that long: 112623.1127 seconds Let's see if anyone can beat that ;) Note that is equal to 1877.05 minutes, or 31.28 hours. I wish I had a printer to pring the result. Is there anyway to 'word wrap' the line in the text viewer? -- Al ==== And does this take display time into acount? -Samuel > > > P.S. BTW, how long did the calculation of 9999! take on the > calculator? > > Actually I don't know, I let it run after dinner until I came back > from work next day, which was just before dinner. > > Poor fella HP49G, had to crunch on numbers while the rest of the > family was having dinner. Hope that you gave it its reward next > morning. (A juicy set of new batteries, yummy! ;-)) > > It did within 24 hours. How do I time how long it takes to do > a calculation? > > You can use the command TEVAL. In this case you could for example > enter the number 9999, then enter the program << ! >>, and then press > [TEVAL]. The program would be evaluated, and the result of 9999! would > be returned on stack level 2. The time in seconds to accomplish the > task would be returned on stack level 1. > > Sleepy greetings, > Nick. ==== > P.S. BTW, how long did the calculation of 9999! take on the > calculator? I calculated 9999! on HP40G and it took 10280.7853 seconds = 171.35 minutes = 2.8556hours! Does anyone have an idea how to get the number of digits on hp40g because XPON doesn't work for souch big numbers (it returns 499)? ==== > I calculated 9999! on HP40G and it took 10280.7853 seconds = 171.35 > minutes > = 2.8556hours! > Does anyone have an idea how to get the number of digits on hp40g because > XPON doesn't > work for souch big numbers (it returns 499)? Ok something must be wrong with my calc because mine took 10 times as long... Ah I know why, I didn't use the calculator, I used the emulator, and then I closed it for a while and continue the calculation later, but the emulator thought that it was calculating throughout the whole time it wasn't even running. It gets its clock from the system clock of the pc, which does advance independant of the emulator. I was wondering how mine could have taken 30 something hours when the real 49g did within 24 hours. -- Al ==== I have not tried that program myself, but by what you say, the program takes three arguments: .87 A matrix which is the extended matrix: the coefficient matrix plus the independent terms vector as the last column. So if your system has 3 unknowns, that would be a 3x4 matrix. .87 Number of equations. In the above example that would be 3. .87 Initial guess. When you are using The Jacobi or Gauss-Seidel algorithm you must provide an intial guess. For the above example it could be [[1][1][1]]. Also, I have done Jacobi and Gauss-Seidel programs myself. If you mines. I also have done other programs about linear equation solving (Gauss with pivoting, Doolitle decomposition ...), linear programming (Simplex) and eigenvalues. Armando Serrano. > I just downloaded the programs JACOBI and GA.SE from the > Numeric-Math-Section. > Unfortunately, the manual is very poor :). > > LA ENTRADA DE ELLOS ES UNA MATRIZ DE LOS COEFICIENTES CON SUS > RESULTADOS, EL NUMERO DE > ECUACIONES Y UN VECTOR INICIAL (EN AMBOS). > UN VECTOR INICIAL > > I figured out A,B,C as arguments (from << -> A B C >> ) > Anybody knows how to enter these arguments with rpn? (maybe with > example) > Thx for your help! > Manfred ==== anybody knows where i can find an instruction manual in italian for the hp 49g? thanks everybody in advice! ==== Anybody of u ever used this function to orthonormalize some vectors? There is a help on this command, but i have troubles with it. it says GRAMSCHMIDT [1,x] and more what does that mean? Lets say i want to get theorthonormal basis of these three vectors: a1=[[1][-1][2]] a2=[[2][1][1]] a3=[[4][-1][5]] I hope someome can help me out... many thanks in advance Manfred ==== I found only by amazon.de. Maybe have a look by amazon.com Jochen Mathematics for Elementary School Teachers: Problem-Solving Investigations: Problem-Solving Investigations (The Prindle,Weber and Schmidt Series in Mathe) ævonæRichard J. Sgroi, Laura Shannon Sgroi Thomson Learning (1. M.8arz 1993) Gebundene Ausgabe F.9fhren wir nicht oder nicht mehr - jetzt gebraucht vorbestellen. 2. Advanced Studies in Pure Mathematics Investigations in Number Theory: 013 ævonæTomio Kubota Academic Pr (1. Mai 1988) Gebundene Ausgabe F.9fhren wir nicht oder nicht mehr - jetzt gebraucht vorbestellen. In Silvio L. de > Investigations in Mathematics ==== I don't have a cable to connect my 48GX to a computer; how do I migrate the files I want from hpcalc.org into my 48gx? Is there some way I can type them in? Craig ==== Craig Reed schrieb im Newsbeitrag I don't have a cable to connect my 48GX to a computer; how do I > migrate the files I want from hpcalc.org into my 48gx? Is there some > way I can type them in? > If the files consist of UserRPL programs, it may work typing them in. Many files consist of binary data, which you can't type in directly. So I'd suggest to get a link cable, they're cheap and ease many things regarding your HP-48 ;-) Raymond ==== Craig Reed escribi.97 en el mensaje I don't have a cable to connect my 48GX to a computer; how do I > migrate the files I want from hpcalc.org into my 48gx? Is there some > way I can type them in? > Craig Yes if you get the source from the zip archives when download. Other way is install the programs in an emulator and get the programs yourself. You will need many many time for typing some big prgs... I strongly recommend the cable: it is a very good investment for getting a more powerful calculator. ==== Craig Reed escribi.97 en el mensaje I don't have a cable to connect my 48GX to a computer; how do I > migrate the files I want from hpcalc.org into my 48gx? Is there some > way I can type them in? > Craig Yes if you get the source from the zip archives when download. Other way is install the programs in an emulator and get the programs yourself. You will need many many time for typing some big prgs... I strongly recommend the cable: it is a very good investment for getting a more powerful calculator. ==== > Anybody *other* than in France having trouble accessing either > www.holyjoe.net or www.godaddy.com? If not, it's merely a French > Connection problem. ==== > I needed a cheap calc for the office, didn't need anything fancy, > just basic > scientific. I have a HP48+, HP32SII and HP49, and > I'm used to the quality of > the HP48 and HP32. Can't really say > HP49 and 'quality' in the same sentence. > > Anyway, the I bought a HP6S, as it was very cheap, and I was curious. > It will You should have choosen a HP20S. I already have a HP48GX, a HP48G+, a HP32SII, and purchased the 20S just because it is a nice little HP calc. The 6S is not made by HP. :-) -- ==== >We've accelerated our product development plans and begun working with >our new aggressive sales and marketing partners around the world. I'd rather deal with a nice salesman than an aggressive one... :-) Maybe this is how HP plans to compensate for the trash they've been putting on market. Instead of spending more dollars to make quality products, they spend those dollars to convince you that their stuff isn't really trash, even though it looks and feels like it. Aaron ==== For MAC, PCs., PDA, HP-48 and HP-49G use: BELKIN USB-RS232 female connection (5U109). Please see ... www.belkin.com Kermit protocol COM 3 or COM4 9600 bps and up. The price is ~ U$S 30 Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK **************************************************************************** *** >Can I connect a Macintoh Computer G4 with the HP 49G for transfer data >between both computer. I use Mac OS X and also Mac OS 9.xx > > You'll need a USB to serial converter and a copy of kermit. Google will > help you find both. > ==== > For MAC, PCs., PDA, HP-48 and HP-49G use: > BELKIN USB-RS232 female connection (5U109). Please see ... www.belkin.com Hans Joachim (.de) > 9600 bps and up. > The price is ~ U$S 30 > Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK > **************************************************************************** * ** > >>>Can I connect a Macintoh Computer G4 with the HP 49G for transfer data >>>between both computer. I use Mac OS X and also Mac OS 9.xx >>You'll need a USB to serial converter and a copy of kermit. Google will >>help you find both. >> ==== > In general, if the formula is F(n)=a*F(n-1) + b*F(n-2) then the value is > given by: > > r = [a + sqrt(a^2+4b)]/2 Perhaps an interesting challenge might be to write a program that will take as input any given surd such as root 2 and give as output the appropriate pair of consecutive Fibonacci numbers that will give (plus or minus a fraction) a fractional approximation to that surd and the fraction which approximates it correctly to n decimal places. For example, we saw earlier that using {1,2} (the Pell sequence) gives root2+1, so an input of root2 into our new challenge should output {1,2} with an adjustment of -1. Using this, and the Pell sequence of {1,2,5,12,29,70,169...} the approximations to root2 become: 2/1-1 = 1 5/2-1 = 3/2 (1.5) 12/5-1 = 7/5 (1.4) 29/12-1 = 17/12 (1.416666) and the fraction which approximates root 2 to 4 decimal places is: 169/70-1 = 99/70. I have no idea whether this is even possible, it just seemed an interesting extension of the problem. However, there needs to be a bit of clarification to this first, so here's a question for Joseph... Why does the Pell sequence start with 1,2? If it is simply the Fibonacci sequence with a modified rule then why is the Pell sequence not {1,1,3,7,17,41...} instead of {1,2,5,12,29...}? Before anyone starts working on this new problem (if anyone wants to) could you clarify for us, Joseph, how to derive the first two terms of our base sequence? Are they the coefficients of the new rule? ie if the new defining rule is T(n)=a*T(n-1)+b*T(n-2) then are the first two terms {b,a}? If not what are they? ==== > if the new defining rule is T(n)=a*T(n-1)+b*T(n-2) then are > the first two terms {b,a}? If not what are they? IMHO, such a recursion is badly written. What is for n=0? Simply write T(n+2) = a* T(n+1) + b*T(n) to avoid any discussion. The initial values T(0) and T(1) do not play any role in my precise proof of r= a + b/r for the limes r of [T(n+1)/T(n)], as long as they are positive. Thus, the limes of the sequence [T(n+1)/T(n)] is the same for the same a,b, no matter what your choice is for T(0) and T(1), at least not as long these are not negative. - Wolfgang ==== > >>if the new defining rule is T(n)=a*T(n-1)+b*T(n-2) then are >>the first two terms {b,a}? If not what are they? > > > IMHO, such a recursion is badly written. What is for n=0? Simply write > T(n+2) = a* T(n+1) + b*T(n) to avoid any discussion. How can it matter whether we define the rule for n=>0 or for n=>2? The rule is mathematically and practically the same. > The initial values T(0) and T(1) do not play any role in my precise > proof of r= a + b/r for the limes r of [T(n+1)/T(n)], as long as they > are positive. Granted, but irrelevant. They do for producing the successive fractional approximations as I outlined. Hence my question to Joseph. ==== > The simplification comes from realizing the fact that if you > distribute the 2 in the denominator of the quadratic formula > (including inside the square root) you end up with two terms : > X/2 and X^2/4 . Since X^2/4 = (X/2)^2 and since the > distribution canceled out the 4 in the 4*Y term you can re-use > the X/2 value and save 2.5 bytes by not having to perform a > multiplication *and* a division, only a division. Elegant! It beats my 35-byte solution! Can it be shrunk beyond 30 bytes? I seriously doubt it, in which case you win! Sub-challenge: Given a desired *output* to the above program, what are all the possible integer inputs? -Joe- ==== of JB for computing r = b/2 + SQRT(SQ(b/2)+a) which is the positive root of x^2 -ax -b = 0 for positive reals a,b > Elegant! It beats my 35-byte solution! Can it be shrunk beyond 30 bytes? I seriously doubt it, in which case you win! What is elegant here? It's the most stright-forward programming of the term in UsrRPL. Here is my solution, 28 bytes only: << -1 UNROT ->V3 PROOT 2 GET >> which is, apart from swapping the 2 arguments, equivalent to the above. Arugment swapping should not count. My program first reads a and then b in solving the equation x^2 -ax -b = 0 which may considered even more natural. Decide yourself whether you admit UNROT which is definitely a 49 UsrRPL command, but not on the 48 :-) As you see, the essential in my approach is the triviality that a polynomial and its negation have the same roots. - Wolfgang ==== of JB for computing r = b/2 + SQRT(SQ(b/2)+a) which is the positive root of x^2 -bx -a = 0 for positive reals a,b, and equally the limes of the sequence [f(n+1)/f(n)] if the sequence f obeys f(n+2)= a*f(n)+b*f(n+1), with an arbitrary positive start value f(0). > Elegant! It beats my 35-byte solution! Can it be shrunk beyond 30 bytes? I seriously doubt it, in which case you win! What is elegant here? It's the most stright-forward programming of the solution term in UsrRPL. Here is my solution, 28 bytes only: << -1 UNROT ->V3 PROOT 2 GET >> which is, apart from swapping the 2 arguments, equivalent to the above. Argument swapping should not count. My program reads the real a first which may considered even more natural. You decide whether you admit UNROT which is definitely a 49 UsrRPL command, but not on the 48 :-) As you see, the essential in my approach is the triviality that a polynomial and its additive inverse have the same roots. - Wolfgang ==== > I've been trying to simpify the following >> EXP(3*LN(10)*5^X) >> on the 49G CAS. I believe the result should be 100^(5^X) 1000^(5^X), perhaps. -- Al ==== The good old 48 gives 99,9999999992^(5^X) using COLCT EXPAN COLCT Using the old Eq editor's algebraic rules, you can get the exact solution: 100^(5*X) ==== > You'll need OT49 or other library splitter (Wolfgang's programs are as > good as they get). That solved the problem... Very interesting, that OT49 program! I think IÇll have to work some more with this one :-) Martin J. ==== > first of all i want to say that i am immensely impressed with your > programs for the hp4x. they really are great. > i am trying to learn system rpl (for 49), but to date, only one of my > programs has ever worked completely how it is supposed to, but even > that wasnt a full version. ... a version of the drug game thats all > over the place. the problem is that when it displays the drug prices, > they show up as 0's. i have tried many different things, but nothing > seems to work. if you could look at the program (attached), and try to > figure it out, i would greatly appreciate it. - thanks Mike Roberts to give some general advices to those interested in SysRPL and direct senders with related problems from now on to this NG. Learning SysRPL fast and efficiently is IMHO possible only by hacking other people's SysRPL programs. Examples in Programming in SysRP are too simple and you'll never come to an end if reading it from A to Z. Clearly, you should have it always at hand to look at the stack diagrams etc. Read also Eduardo's Programming the HP49 from hpcalc.org (it got Erics GetIt star). Besides extable you should have at least the libs Emacs, Nosy and OT49 on your calculator. Try to follow the stack look of good programs by first debugging them on the 49 with flag -85 set. Every time you meet a runstream command press CON, to overjump it until the next xHALT which must have been put beforehand at suitable places into the program - make a key assignment for quickly writing xHALT in edited SysRPL programs. The builtin debugger was designed for UsrRPL but works also for SysRPL as long as no runstream commands are met or the return stack is not specially handled. Commands looking forward at the runstrem and not only backward at the data stack are runstream commands, e.g. the various quoting commands, the case-commands etc. In addition, decompile commands like casedrop, caseDROP etc with Emacs's Nosy tools to convince yourself that they really do the expected. With external tools available for the HP49 it is much easier to learn SysRPL today than it was in the times of the famous hackers (like D. M.9fller, M. Heiskanen and others). Unfortunately, I've no time to detach your or other SysRPL programs from this NG in case of a problem. I'll always help as much as I can. But you will meet here other people which are excellent experts in SysRPL. ==== > Unfortunately, I've no time to detach your or other SysRPL programs from > this NG in case of a problem. I'll always help as much as I can. But you > will meet here other people which are excellent experts in SysRPL. I agree, completely! And by posting in this NG, others will also benefit from the answers/discussion. Bothering individuals IMHO would be waste of time and considering the fact that posts in this NG is read by many people, one could surely also expect a better answer to a problem here, since different approaches to a problem, here can be taken.. Martin J! ==== Some days ago I made a link list for somebody about SysRPL/Assembly programming. The main topic was programming the HP48, but it will be useful for the HP49 was well. In difference to Wolfgang I like developing on the PC, you will see this on the published links. Here it is, Christoph This is a link collection of selected tools that IMHO are useful to learn and making System RPL and Saturn Assembly programs for the HP48 and HP49. This list is far far away from to be complete, there are many other programs and document that are worth to be mentioned here. The best resource for these (and other) sort of material is www.hpcalc.org. - Original RPL Compiler/Assembler package with documentation Many parts of this package are replaced by newer versions, it's recommended to use the latest versions http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/programming/tools.zip - RPL Compiler/Assembler http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/programming/hptool-3.0.8-win32.zip - Official HP48 Entry point list http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/programming/entries/48entry.zip - Official HP49 Entry point list http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/programming/entries/supentry.zip - IDE with Editor/Compiler/Debugger/Emulator for HP48/49 http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/pc/programming/debug4x.zip - Emu48 Emulator http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/ - Entry point list data base http://zon.astro.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/entries/ - System RPL programming tutorial http://zon.astro.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/progsysrpl_pdf.zip http://zon.astro.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/progsysrpl_examples.zip - Assembler programming tutorial http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/programming/asm-pdf.zip Wolfgang Rautenberg schrieb im Newsbeitrag first of all i want to say that i am immensely impressed with your > programs for the hp4x. they really are great. > i am trying to learn system rpl (for 49), but to date, only one of my > programs has ever worked completely how it is supposed to, but even > that wasnt a full version. ... a version of the drug game thats all > over the place. the problem is that when it displays the drug prices, > they show up as 0's. i have tried many different things, but nothing > seems to work. if you could look at the program (attached), and try to > figure it out, i would greatly appreciate it. - thanks Mike Roberts to give some general advices to those interested in SysRPL and direct > senders with related problems from now on to this NG. Learning SysRPL fast and efficiently is IMHO possible only by hacking > other people's SysRPL programs. Examples in Programming in SysRP are > too simple and you'll never come to an end if reading it from A to Z. > Clearly, you should have it always at hand to look at the stack diagrams > etc. Read also Eduardo's Programming the HP49 from hpcalc.org (it got > Erics GetIt star). Besides extable you should have at least the libs > Emacs, Nosy and OT49 on your calculator. Try to follow the stack look of > good programs by first debugging them on the 49 with flag -85 set. Every > time you meet a runstream command press CON, to overjump it until the > next xHALT which must have been put beforehand at suitable places into > the program - make a key assignment for quickly writing xHALT in edited > SysRPL programs. The builtin debugger was designed for UsrRPL but works > also for SysRPL as long as no runstream commands are met or the return > stack is not specially handled. Commands looking forward at the runstrem > and not only backward at the data stack are runstream commands, e.g. the > various quoting commands, the case-commands etc. In addition, decompile > commands like casedrop, caseDROP etc with Emacs's Nosy tools to convince > yourself that they really do the expected. With external tools available > for the HP49 it is much easier to learn SysRPL today than it was in the > times of the famous hackers (like D. M.9fller, M. Heiskanen and > others). Unfortunately, I've no time to detach your or other SysRPL programs from > this NG in case of a problem. I'll always help as much as I can. But you > will meet here other people which are excellent experts in SysRPL. > ==== > Do you want the recursion which takes ~ 20min. to calculate > on HP48 to get all digits correct ? Or some kind of simplified > expresion(which I haven't found yet:-) ? Whichever you prefer. Remember, the *smallest* one wins, not the fastest. -Joe- ==== > when I turn ON the HP49G I can see for a short time > vertically white lines in the display. > Is that normal? Excerpt from the Compleat User RPL Encyclopedia (to appear online Real Soon Now): Green Lightning aka Green Flash The momentary display flash that's seen as the calculator powers up. It is harmless and expected. The flash is not green; the name is a throwback to old IBM monitors that made a similar flash when a new character set was being downloaded, and came to be affectionately known as green lightning among hackers. The IBM original is perhaps closer to the HP display earthquake that occurs when a library is detached. None of these have anything whatsoever to do with the rare green flash seen momentarily above the Sun just as it sets. -Joe- ==== > (&% euros) I mean 65 euros. Sorry. > > Isn't ^% 65 euros? Surely &% is 75. Not in my keyboard!!!! &% -------> 65€ in mine. cheers > > Don't you just hate typos? > > - Michael ==== > (&% euros) I mean 65 euros. Sorry. > > Isn't ^% 65 euros? Surely &% is 75. > > Don't you just hate typos? > > - Michael Ahhhhhhh forgot, customize your keyboard...I think that I've only numbers, arithmetic operators and F1-F6 in their original place !!!! ==== > > > >>Is the HP49 the only calculator that can give an exact result? Can other >>math software even do that? > > I don't know about other calculators but Mathematica or Maple can > certainly give you the exact result. > > >>Now I gotta find a way to approximate pi to like 1000 digits. > > In Mathematica you would enter N[Pi,1000]. > > > > Did the same on the 48 ;-) (with a little bit of ML programming) You are heading for Mathematica48? ;-) Greetings, Nick. ==== > > P.S. BTW, how long did the calculation of 9999! take on the > calculator? > > Actually I don't know, I let it run after dinner until I came back > from work next day, which was just before dinner. Poor fella HP49G, had to crunch on numbers while the rest of the family was having dinner. Hope that you gave it its reward next morning. (A juicy set of new batteries, yummy! ;-)) > It did within 24 hours. How do I time how long it takes to do > a calculation? You can use the command TEVAL. In this case you could for example enter the number 9999, then enter the program << ! >>, and then press [TEVAL]. The program would be evaluated, and the result of 9999! would be returned on stack level 2. The time in seconds to accomplish the task would be returned on stack level 1. Sleepy greetings, Nick. ==== (sorry i don;t have much time today) you could look at reality from a scientific point of view (what is being done here). this point of view is just a point of view between the many floating around. a person who has studied lots of mathematics will use his knowledge to interpretate the world with more math. the person who has spent lots of time reading science will use his knowledge to explain things more scientifically, and so and so. we tint our reality with our knowledge. like when a person finds out that his body is made of molecules he/she may choose to think that he/she is a scientific object and say that that is the reality of his body. although true, that point of view is just one in the many and to think that that is the only or absolute reality would be living on a self made world. for example, you can look at a table and depending on your interests come up with a description. a description of something that exists is always an interpretation that suits the interpreter depending on his/her interests. science is just another interpretation (a practical one, which i like) of that which exists. the fact that precedes all facts is you (or i). you (or i) see things in a certain way, and that what you see (understand/interpretate) is your reality at that moment. ==== Since long I've been looking for a programm that is able to approximate a fractionary number to binary wothout crunchin the fractionary part. Using (in HP49): R->B appears to operate as (sorry for the pseudocode!) <> as a result (it should be rather called N->B :å) My question is if anyone could help me with a USER RPL program that does the correct approximation. Some examples are: 0.0952 --> 0.00011 0.309 --> 0.010011 0.857 --> 0.11011 Any ideas??? This is part of an Elias-Fano coding so if anyone has a routine for this then perfect!!! ==== >Since long I've been looking for a programm that is able to >approximate a fractionary number to binary wothout crunchin the >fractionary part. Using (in HP49): R->B appears to operate as (sorry for the pseudocode!) < {ceil; > binary; > } > else 0; > >as a result (it should be rather called N->B :å) My question is if anyone could help me with a USER RPL program that >does the correct approximation. Some examples are: 0.0952 --> 0.00011 >0.309 --> 0.010011 >0.857 --> 0.11011 The way to do this is to keep multiplying by the base and taking any fractional part. To convert 0.25 into binary we do: 0.25 * 2 = 0.50; IP for 0; FP for remainder of .5 0.5 * 2 = 1.00; IP for 1; FP for remainder of .0 0.0 * 2 = 0.00; IP for 0; FP for remainder of .0 0.0 * 2 = 0.00; IP for 0; FP for remainder of .0 0.0 * 2 = 0.00; IP for 0; FP for remainder of .0 0.0 * 2 = 0.00; IP for 0; FP for remainder of .0 0.0 * 2 = 0.00; IP for 0; FP for remainder of .0 The binary sequence you want is the result of the IP operations which in this case would be .0100000... To convert .1 decimal to binary: 0.1 * 2 = 0.2; IP 0; FP .2 0.2 * 2 = 0.4; IP 0; FP .4 0.4 * 2 = 0.8; IP 0; FP .8 0.8 * 2 = 1.6; IP 0; FP .6 0.6 * 2 = 1.2; IP 1; FP .2 0.2 * 2 = 0.4; IP 0; FP .4 0.4 * 2 = 0.8; IP 0; FP .8 0.8 * 2 = 1.6; IP 0; FP .6 0.6 * 2 = 1.2; IP 1; FP .2 0.2 * 2 = 0.4; IP 0; FP .4 so 0.1 decimal is binary 0.000010001... with the 0001 repeating forever. This makes sense because multiplying .1 with 2 will never result in a FP of 0. This is why many computers, that use binary for their floating point representation (i.e. 80x86s), don't give correct answers for something like: .1 + .1 + .1 where the HP, (which uses BCD floating point), will give the correct answer. To represent 0.1 in binary floating point requires an infinite number of bits. -- john R. Latala jrlatala@golden.net ==== > My question is if anyone could help me with a USER RPL program that > does the correct approximation. Some examples are: 0.0952 --> 0.00011 > 0.309 --> 0.010011 > 0.857 --> 0.11011 Any ideas??? An excellent base converter, which handles decimals just fine, is Ian Smith's old BASECALC program: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1448 -Joe- ==== > My question is if anyone could help me with a USER RPL program that > does the correct approximation. Some examples are: 0.0952 --> 0.00011 > 0.309 --> 0.010011 > 0.857 --> 0.11011 Any ideas??? > > An excellent base converter, which handles decimals just fine, is Ian > Smith's old BASECALC program: > http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1448 > > -Joe- (Why hand't I look before in hpcalc.org?????) ==== For all guitar players with HP48: I have uploaded a collection of guitar chords for the program chordbuilder to hpcalc.org: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=5420 -- Ralf Kleineisel <5YVW9.41030$Hl6.4901328@news010.worldonline.dk> <8bCX9.6585$Sv3.647345@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> ==== I can't access the holyjoe.org web site. > I can't even resolve the hostname. Routing problems? Strange; it's working in this hemisphere. The following are all equivalent: http://holyjoe.org > http://holyjoe.net > http://holyjoe.us > http://www.holyjoe.org > http://www.holyjoe.net > http://www.holyjoe.us Don't worry; if none of 'em work for you, you aren't missing much. ;-) ==== Joseph K. Horn meinte >> accessible]. I'm in France. Anybody *other* than in France having trouble accessing either >www.holyjoe.net or www.godaddy.com? If not, it's merely a French >Connection problem. At least it works well here in Brussels/Belgium, which is pretty close to France. G.9fnter ==== > accessible]. I'm in France. Anybody *other* than in France having trouble accessing either www.holyjoe.net or www.godaddy.com? If not, it's merely a French Connection problem. -Joe- ==== > accessible]. I'm in France. > > Anybody *other* than in France having trouble accessing either > www.holyjoe.net or www.godaddy.com? If not, it's merely a French > Connection problem. > > -Joe- I'm in America and can't access any of the holyjoe sites guillen ==== Ive had my 49G about a month and have not been using it all the time or anything and it says my batteries are low, is this time span normal? ==== > Ive had my 49G about a month and have not been using it all the time > or anything and it says my batteries are low, is this time span > normal? > Well, about a month is how long the batteries in my HP49G last. But I use it very often. So, perhaps the batteries you used were not very new? Greetings, Nick. ==== If you did'nt regular use the HP-49G, you must quit the batteries. Is equal what lantern. The current fluxing too in the sleep mode. Normally the life of alcaline battery is two (2) months aprox., but this depend if you use with the protocol transfer. Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK **************************************************************************** **** > Ive had my 49G about a month and have not been using it all the time > or anything and it says my batteries are low, is this time span > normal? > ==== **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** If you use rechargable batteries I think this time is quite normal because NiCD and NiMH batteries have quite high self-uncharging(is this the correct english word?) current. As for alkaline batteries this seams too short. The current comsumed by HP49 is ~45uA so it should last(according to my calculations) for about >1 year. The capacity of a battery was guesses to 1000mAh. By the way, when I was testing NewOS @ 11.00pm HP49 was showing low battery and I left it turned on without auto power off feature overnight. And it was light outside when it died. It might have been about 8:00 am. I use rechargable batteries NiCD 180mAh. > Ive had my 49G about a month and have not been using it all the time > or anything and it says my batteries are low, is this time span > normal? > Demo -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ==== > Ive had my 49G about a month and have not been using it all the time > or anything and it says my batteries are low, is this time span > normal? I've had that happen. Sometimes you get defective batteries right out of the package - even though their voltage looks good at first, they die too soon. The same thing also happens with my HP48 from time to time. Currently, so to speak, I'm having great success with a smart charger that can recharge ordinary alkalines - in the first test of it, my 49 has just completed three months with the same batteries and *lots* of use. I'll report back on make, model, etc, after a little more testing. Bill ==== I'm too the rechargeable batteries (Probattery NiMh (200 @ 600 mAh). The unic invonvenient is the voltaje. Have a 1,2 vdc. But this isn't problem. I'm have a alkaline battery (by-pass). Remember: If not use the microcomputer, quit the batteries. Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK **************************************************************************** *** > **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** > > > If you use rechargable batteries I think this time is quite normal because > NiCD and NiMH batteries have quite high self-uncharging(is this the correct > english word?) current. As for alkaline batteries this seams too short. The > current comsumed by HP49 is ~45uA so it should last(according to my > calculations) for about >1 year. The capacity of a battery was guesses to > 1000mAh. > By the way, when I was testing NewOS @ 11.00pm HP49 was showing low battery > and I left it turned on without auto power off feature overnight. And it was > light outside when it died. It might have been about 8:00 am. I use > rechargable batteries NiCD 180mAh. > > Ive had my 49G about a month and have not been using it all the time > or anything and it says my batteries are low, is this time span > normal? > Demo > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** > http://www.usenet.com > Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ==== >**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** I was just kind of wondering what are bits RST & GRST at #00109 in IO RAM >used for. These are the status bits that are used to differentiate a software reset from a hardware reset. RST is set when the Yorke IC reset pin is pulled low, for example, by a user initiated paper clip reset. GRST is set when the Yorke Power-On Reset circuitry detects a power supply glitch and subsequently performs a hardware reset. This is needed so that the chip is in a known state after loss of power, such as if the batteries run out and the memory back-up capacitor is drained. If not for this then the CPU would go haywire upon power-up as the internal registers are volatile and take on random/unknown values after a power loss. AFAIK, the only place these two registers are used is in the warmstart code so that it can determine the correct failure code to record in the warmstart log. >And is it possible to make comma mode on HP49 ? not key combination! , but >ML. Yes, as the 48 and 49 use the same hardware. If anyone finds any inaccuracies in this information then please feel free to correct me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== > And is it possible to make comma mode on HP49 ? not key combination! > but ML. > Yes, as the 48 and 49 use the same hardware. As far as I know there is no key on the 49 which sets it in coma. The only possibility to make a pause for several month or perhaps years (?) is to save everthing in port 2 and take the batteries out. Perhaps you could sent me a code which really sets the 49 in coma mode. That would perhaps be useful because one saves battery manipulation. PS. Programming on the 49 in SysRPL or ML has meanwhile become very convenient (e.g., doing it at night when no PC is running). But doing it intensively just a week's time, a set of fresh batteries is gone :-) ==== **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** Jonathan Busby p.92se v diskusn.92m pr.92spevku **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** I was just kind of wondering what are bits RST & GRST at #00109 in IO RAM >used for. These are the status bits that are used to differentiate a software > reset from a hardware reset. RST is set when the Yorke IC reset pin is > pulled low, for example, by a user initiated paper clip reset. GRST > is set when the Yorke Power-On Reset circuitry detects a power supply > glitch and subsequently performs a hardware reset. This is needed so > that the chip is in a known state after loss of power, such as if the > batteries run out and the memory back-up capacitor is drained. If not > for this then the CPU would go haywire upon power-up as the internal > registers are volatile and take on random/unknown values after a power > loss. AFAIK, the only place these two registers are used is in the > warmstart code so that it can determine the correct failure code to > record in the warmstart log. And is it possible to make comma mode on HP49 ? not key combination! , but >ML. Yes, as the 48 and 49 use the same hardware. But how ? preferably in ML. > If anyone finds any inaccuracies in this information then please feel > free to correct me. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Jonathan Busby - before replying. > Demo -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ==== Is there a command to complete the square? ==== > Is there a command to complete the square? sum or difference of squares. Example: Enter X^2-X*Y (the expression) Enter [X Y] (the variables) Press or enter GAUSS to get [1 1/4] [[1 -1/2][0 1]] -1/4*Y^2+((-Y+2*X)/2)^2 [X Y] Also take a look at the commands AXQ and QXA. You can find brief help for GAUSS AXQ and QXA using the built-in command catalog of the HP49G. I hope that this was what you wanted. Greetings, Nick. ==== Oliver Cairncross escribi.97 en el mensaje > Is Java compatible with Metakernel? No: but the good thing is that you will not miss Java when using MK (IMHO) > I'm thinking of getting a GX and loading it to the gills with software > 'cause I don't want a 49 ==== > Faster access: the ALG menu. First page. activities are much shorter now. > > Here's the most up-to-date list of commands and their menu paths: > > http://holyjoe.org/cure/hp49gcat.txt > > -Joe- all menus yourself alone? If so, how did you do that? Greetings and thanks again, Nick. ==== > Did you really search all the commands in all menus > yourself alone? Yes. > If so, how did you do that? Manually, going through the Menu Number List one menu at a time. Speaking of which, please be aware that the HP49G Menu Number List has also been updated: http://holyjoe.net/cure/menus.txt Unfortunately, there are many menus in the HP49G which are not numbered. I think that those menus can all be accessed by typing MAIN. The MAIN menu and its submenus are in the MAIN Menu List at http://holyjoe.net/cure/main.txt -Joe- ==== > There are some matrilineal societies where the > women run things, They have all the money and property and ones > ancestry is traced back through ones mother and grandmother, etc. Isn't that the way it goes everywhere? (Wife=secret boss behind the scenes) ;-) > A newly married man moves in with his wife's family. Poor man, alone with the whole family of bosses, a minority in his own home. ;-) But seriously now, who takes whose name is irrelevant if two people find each other and decide to stay together because of love. Greetings, Nick. P.S.: One should also consider the cases of males with such family names like mine. I can't do that to anybody ;-) ==== > Every ones culture is not like the European, American. or other > patrilineal cultures. There are some matrilineal societies where the > women run things, They have all the money and property and ones > ancestry is traced back through ones mother and grandmother, etc. > A newly married man moves in with his wife's family. Makes a great deal of sense to me, you can usually be sure who your mother was, not necessarily who your father was! ==== > im deutschen benutzerhandbuch des hp49g hat es auf der seite 10-2 ein > beispielprogramm. leider bringe ich dieses nicht zum funktionieren. ich > arbeite im algebraischen modus (alle beispiele des handbuches sollen sich > auf diesen modus beziehen!). wenn ich -> A eingebe (um einen wert in die > variabel a einzulesen), so steht der cursor auf dem 'A' mit der > fehlermeldung Invalid Syntax. wo liegt das problem? muss ich eventuell > flags anders setzen? wenn ich das gleiche beispielprgramm im RPN-modus > ausf.9fhre, so kriege ich keine fehlermeldung!! aber das beispiel bezieht sich > ja explizit auf den algebraischen modus! was mache ich falsch? > > vielen dank & mfg > luigi Ich schliesse mich der Meinung von Stefan und Markus an und w.9frde Dir empfehlen auf RPL zu schalten. Es ist keineswegs so schwer, wie man oft h.9art, und Du wirst eine wirklich viel h.9ahere Flexibilit.8at zur L.9asung Deiner Probleme zur Verf.9fgung haben. Wenn Du trotzdem algebraischen Eingabemodus vorziehst, dann w.8are zus.8atzlich zu den Anmerkungen von Markus auch Folgendes zu fragen: Hast Du die Variable A mit oder ohne einfache Anf.9fhrungsstriche nach dem Zuweisungssymbol (->) eingegeben? D.h. hast Du -> A oder -> 'A' eingegeben? Die korrekte Schreibweise ist ohne Anf.9fhrungsstriche. Viel Gl.9fck bei der Fehlersuche, und es Gr.9fessli, Nick. ==== danke vielmals f.9fr die hilfe! ich habe in der zwischenzeit ein paar programme auf den rechner geladen und ein paar mal einen warmstart durchgef.9fhrt. als ich es jetzt wieder probierte, funktionierte das programm pl.9atzlich tadellos! weiss auch nicht, woran das gelegen hat. aber auf jeden fall muss ich wohl langsam wirklich einsehen, dass ich auf RPN umschalten sollte... ;-) thx & gruss luigi > im deutschen benutzerhandbuch des hp49g hat es auf der seite 10-2 ein > beispielprogramm. leider bringe ich dieses nicht zum funktionieren. ich > arbeite im algebraischen modus (alle beispiele des handbuches sollen sich > auf diesen modus beziehen!). wenn ich -> A eingebe (um einen wert in die > variabel a einzulesen), so steht der cursor auf dem 'A' mit der > fehlermeldung Invalid Syntax. wo liegt das problem? muss ich eventuell > flags anders setzen? wenn ich das gleiche beispielprgramm im RPN-modus > ausf.9fhre, so kriege ich keine fehlermeldung!! aber das beispiel bezieht sich > ja explizit auf den algebraischen modus! was mache ich falsch? vielen dank & mfg > luigi Ich schliesse mich der Meinung von Stefan und Markus an und w.9frde Dir > empfehlen auf RPL zu schalten. Es ist keineswegs so schwer, wie man > oft h.9art, und Du wirst eine wirklich viel h.9ahere Flexibilit.8at zur > L.9asung Deiner Probleme zur Verf.9fgung haben. Wenn Du trotzdem algebraischen Eingabemodus vorziehst, dann w.8are > zus.8atzlich zu den Anmerkungen von Markus auch Folgendes zu fragen: > Hast Du die Variable A mit oder ohne einfache Anf.9fhrungsstriche nach > dem Zuweisungssymbol (->) eingegeben? D.h. hast Du -> A oder -> 'A' > eingegeben? Die korrekte Schreibweise ist ohne Anf.9fhrungsstriche. Viel Gl.9fck bei der Fehlersuche, > und es Gr.9fessli, > Nick. ==== How do u solve a system of linear equations on the HP49G? I don't understand the entry of the coefficients through matrices. EX. -3X+6Y=4 2X+Y=4 ( I know the answer to this is obvious but it is just an example!) Thanxs in Advance CID ==== > How do u solve a system of linear equations on the HP49G? I don't > understand the entry of the coefficients through matrices. > > EX. > -3X+6Y=4 > 2X+Y=4 > ( I know the answer to this is obvious but it is just an example!) > > Thanxs in Advance > > CID Well, especially for linear systems the HP49G provides so many commands that it sometimes becomes hard to remember them all. I'll describe some of them and their inputs, and hopefully the guys out there will complete the list of possibilities. 1) You can use LINSOLVE. This command is in menu S.SLV. It takes the vector of equations and the vector of variables as arguments. Example: Go to the Matrix Writer, press [EQW] and enter -3X+6Y=4. Press [ENTER]. Press again [EQW], enter 2X+Y=4 and press [ENTER]. Press [ENTER] to put the vector [-3X+6Y=4 2X+Y=4] on stack level 1. Enter the vector [X Y]. Press LINSOLVE and you get [X=4/3 Y=4/3] (and other information). 2) You can use / (yes, that is the normal divide key). The function / can also take the vector of constants and the matrix of coefficients as arguments. In your example we have: -3X+6Y=4 2X+ Y=4 The vector of constants is [4 4]. The matrix of coeffs is [[-3 6][2 1]]. So you enter these two things in order and press [/]. The result is [4/3 4/3] which is the vector of solutions in order [X Y]. 3) You can use the command RREF. This takes as argument the augmented matrix of coefficients and constants. For your example it looks like: [[-3 6 4][2 1 4]]. Enter this matrix, press RREF and the result is: [[1 0 4/3][0 1 4/3]]. The interpretation of this result is: 1*X+0*Y=4/3 , 0*X+1*Y=4/3 which is the same as X=4/3 , Y=4/3 . Also take a look at the commans rref (not the same like RREF) and REF. If you have more equations than unknowns, then you can use the command LSQ, which finds values for the unknowns, such that the equations are satisfied as good as possible in the least square approximation. Example system: 1*X+2*X=1 4*X+7*Y=2 3*X+2*Y=3 Enter the vector of constants [1 2 3]. Enter the matrix of coefficients [[1 2][4 7][3 2]]. Press LSQ. The result is the vector [1.25... -.40....]. These are the values for X and Y, which make the three linear equations be satisfied as good as possible. (This example is only for demonstration purposes, otherwise it sucks.) To see how much inaccuracy yyou have in the solutions, you can use the command RSD, which finds the residuals. It takes as arguments: The vector of constants, the matrix of coefficients, and the vector of solutions. Example: 1.01*X+2*Y =3 3.02*X+5.99*Y=9.01 This is an ill conditioned system. Enter the vector of costants [3 9.01], and the matrix of coefficients [[1.01 2][3.02 5.99]]. Press DUP to make a copy of the matrix. Press [COND] to find that the condition of the matrix is 7271.70...., which is very big and indicates an ill conditioned matrix. COND should return numbers about 1 for good conditioned systems. DROP the condition number and press DUP2 to make copies of the vector and the matrix. Press [/]. The returned solutions of the system are [-5.05.. 4.05..]. How good are these solutions? Press [ENTER] to make a copy of the solutions and then enter 4 ROLLD to order the arguments for LSQ as needed. Press [RSD]. The result is [.0000000065 .00000001947]. This is the first order deviation of the returned solutions from the real solutions. Press [+] to add this to the returned solutions. The result is a vector with corrected solutions. I hope that it helped. Greetings, Nick. ==== > > How do u solve a system of linear equations on the HP49G? I don't > understand the entry of the coefficients through matrices. EX. > -3X+6Y=4 > 2X+Y=4 > ( I know the answer to this is obvious but it is just an example!) Thanxs in Advance CID > > > Well, especially for linear systems the HP49G provides so many > commands that it sometimes becomes hard to remember them all. I'll > describe some of them and their inputs, and hopefully the guys out > there will complete the list of possibilities. > > 1) You can use LINSOLVE. This command is in menu S.SLV. > It takes the vector of equations and the vector of > variables as arguments. > Example: Go to the Matrix Writer, press [EQW] and > enter -3X+6Y=4. Press [ENTER]. Press again [EQW], > enter 2X+Y=4 and press [ENTER]. Press [ENTER] to > put the vector [-3X+6Y=4 2X+Y=4] on stack level 1. > Enter the vector [X Y]. Press LINSOLVE and you get > [X=4/3 Y=4/3] (and other information). > > 2) You can use / (yes, that is the normal divide key). > The function / can also take the vector of constants > and the matrix of coefficients as arguments. In your > example we have: > -3X+6Y=4 > 2X+ Y=4 > The vector of constants is [4 4]. The matrix of coeffs > is [[-3 6][2 1]]. So you enter these two things in > order and press [/]. The result is [4/3 4/3] which is > the vector of solutions in order [X Y]. > > 3) You can use the command RREF. This takes as argument > the augmented matrix of coefficients and constants. > For your example it looks like: [[-3 6 4][2 1 4]]. > Enter this matrix, press RREF and the result is: > [[1 0 4/3][0 1 4/3]]. The interpretation of this > result is: 1*X+0*Y=4/3 , 0*X+1*Y=4/3 which is the > same as X=4/3 , Y=4/3 . > > Also take a look at the commans rref (not the same like RREF) and REF. > > If you have more equations than unknowns, then you can use the command > LSQ, which finds values for the unknowns, such that the equations are > satisfied as good as possible in the least square approximation. > > Example system: > 1*X+2*X=1 > 4*X+7*Y=2 > 3*X+2*Y=3 > > Enter the vector of constants [1 2 3]. Enter the matrix of > coefficients > [[1 2][4 7][3 2]]. Press LSQ. The result is the vector [1.25... > -.40....]. These are the values for X and Y, which make the three > linear equations be satisfied as good as possible. (This example is > only for demonstration > purposes, otherwise it sucks.) > > To see how much inaccuracy yyou have in the solutions, you can use the > command RSD, which finds the residuals. It takes as arguments: The > vector of constants, the matrix of coefficients, and the vector of > solutions. > Example: > 1.01*X+2*Y =3 > 3.02*X+5.99*Y=9.01 > This is an ill conditioned system. Enter the vector of costants [3 > 9.01], > and the matrix of coefficients [[1.01 2][3.02 5.99]]. Press DUP to > make a > copy of the matrix. Press [COND] to find that the condition of the > matrix > is 7271.70...., which is very big and indicates an ill conditioned > matrix. > COND should return numbers about 1 for good conditioned systems. DROP > the > condition number and press DUP2 to make copies of the vector and the > matrix. Press [/]. The returned solutions of the system are [-5.05.. > 4.05..]. > How good are these solutions? Press [ENTER] to make a copy of the > solutions > and then enter 4 ROLLD to order the arguments for LSQ as needed. Press > [RSD]. > The result is [.0000000065 .00000001947]. This is the first order > deviation > of the returned solutions from the real solutions. Press [+] to add > this > to the returned solutions. The result is a vector with corrected > solutions. > > I hope that it helped. > Greetings, > Nick. You can also use SolveSys 49 1.2 by Sune Bredahl, which has so far solved any equation system I've cared to try. Especially useful when RREF doesn't work due to a matrix lacking an inverse, and it doesn't matter if you're solving a linear or nonlinear system. < http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/math/numeric/ss49v12.zip > -- Markus Nylund markus.nylund@arcada.fi 040-5377 377 ==== > -3X+6Y=4 > 2X+Y=4 > ... LINSOLVE ... > ... /... > ... RREF ... Don't forget about the MSLV command (in the NUM.SLV menu, item 6), which also works for non-linear systems. [ '-3*X+6*Y=4' '2*X+Y=4' ] <--- the system of equations. [ 'X' 'Y' ] <--- the variables to solve for. [ 1 1 ] <----- initial guesses for X and Y. MSLV XQ --> [ 4/3 4/3 ] It leaves the level 2 and level 3 inputs on the stack, so that you can search for multiple solutions by specifying different guesses. And like the menu 30 solver, it lets you watch the iterative process in action. It's slow, but cool. Inappropriate for linear systems, I guess, but fun to play with nonetheless. -Joe- ==== due to markus keller. zxcvbnm -- Christian ==== 1. Suppose you are in the filer in a port. A HOME backup in this port is a directory which can be entered with RightArrow, as can every backup of a directory. While the filer normally doesn't show the hidden directory, in a HOME backup it is seen at the very end of the file listing. DO NOT ENTER IT WITH RIGHTARROW, YOU RISK A TTRM. 2. While the ARCHIVE command accepts long port names (which may contain a HOME backup under the name 2:HOME27.2.03 8:15 say, but one cannot RESTORE it. Even if the time is omitted in which date format. By the way, this is a good example of the usefullness of planned for ROM 19-7 is much easier customizable by those familiar with SysRPL but it has still the bug under 1. Moreover, RightArrow does not drive into a library's command menu anymore. Is this intended? Also the NEW dialog box has its topics still upside turned down. It seems to me that the planned Search option is too fussy (much easier in my filers). Finally, the keys dot, 0, 1, 2 should list HOME and the corresponding port menus, resp. also if being in a directory, for instance (this too is realized already in my filers :-) To be continued if time allows ... - Wolfgang ==== > 2:HOME27.2.03 8:15 > *and* sorting by name will give more meaningful results. Your proposal makes the name nearly unreadable for a normal human being, Filer2 which sets a ARCHIVE/RESTORE choose box inside the filer (see the screenshot Filer.gif on my site below) omit the time and append to HOME only the date. Either in EU or in US format, depending on flag -42. It is unlikely that somebody makes several HOME backups the same day, and even if, he has 3 ports to the disposal and may make additional backups in the traditional way by hand. For RESTORE, Filers.txt proposes sorting by type, not name, to have all candidates for RESTORE closely together, exactly the ones of type DIR. Nontheless, it would be much better if RESTORE accepts long names as does ARCHIVE. - Wolfgang ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools/ ==== > 2:HOME27.2.03 8:15 *and* sorting by name will give more meaningful results. Greetings Thomas -- Thomas Rast If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S. Truman ==== I was wondering if it would be possible to use a 48g to send ascii characters to a computer through the keyboard port on a motherboard. I have recently been playing with EMC which is a linux based motion control program for controlling CNC machines. It works quite well and would be even better if I could rig up a remote pendant to jog the machine while keeping the main keyboard away from coolant and chips. I looked at repackaging keys and chips from an old keyboard to make the pendant and then school started again. Trying to program a 48g to transmit the proper characters would teach me more and result in a much more elegant package than I would make. The main requirements would be transmitting the same input as a standard computer keyboard for the following keys: pg up, pg down, up down left and right arrows, home, i, c, x, y, z, esc, <, >, and F3. Is this possible through the serial port? Any ideas hints or suggestions are appreciated. Howard Bailey ==== A standard PC's keyboard port is a synchronously clocked TTL signal, not the asynchronous RS-232 signal that the HPs use. A converter can be created but... Can you tell the software to use a serial port for its input? Any number of terminal programs - or a simple dedicated program - could supply the characters through the serial port that way. If the controller is PC compatible, there are likely utilities to make serial input acceptable to the control software. Best to you with the project! Jim ==== I just bought an HP 48G calculator from EBay and I'm having a helluva time trying to find the manual for this thing on the internet... can someone help? Wilmero ==== > I just bought an HP 48G calculator from EBay and I'm having a helluva time > trying to find the manual for this thing on the internet... can someone help? > Wilmero http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/misc/hp48gug.zip http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/programming/aug012.zip ==== > I just bought an HP 48G calculator from EBay and I'm having a helluva time > trying to find the manual for this thing on the internet... can someone help? > always take a look at www.hpcalc.org For starter docs look here: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/misc/ Here's the direct link to what you should read first: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/misc/hp48gug.zip Raymond ==== I have a problem using the 'relative copy' function of XCell 2.0 on my HP48: Absolute copy is working. I set the cursor on the first cell to copy, press 'B', move the cursor to the last cell, press 'ENTER', go to the destination cell and press '<-'. But this does not change formulas to reflect the new position of the formula in the destination cell. When I try a relative copy with 'C', move, 'ENTER', move, '<-' I get nothing. Did I miss something? -- Ralf Kleineisel ==== I'm not absolutely sure, but I think he wanted $69 for one. It was about the the manuals with them; however, manuals are available. John website. Nelson ==== Ap'oti vlepo diladi, ego eimai o geros ths pareas, o papous sa na leme ;-) Geia xaradan, Papounikos ;-) ==== Geia sas paidia! Pieite kai kana ouzaki gia mena, e?. (Meta diplopenias Tsitsanh). Greetings, Nick. ==== Last week I was informed that the ported version of Truss48, very originally called Truss49 was bugged. It appeared that the plots were upside down! I can confirm this bug (probably all ROM versions). Alas, this is not all. The EDIT option in the INPUT menu is bugged too (EMU48 with ROM 1.19-6). This is so because the port was probably done with unsupported entries, and thus Truss49 won't work with this latest ROM version. On older ROM versions it will probably be ok. This is very unfortunate since I fixed the plot bug (just a minor fix needed). However, the time needed to fix the EDIT options is too much combined with my lack of interest in Truss48/49. This means that I will discontinue Truss49 and will remove it from my website / have it removed from hpcalc.org. This will remain so until a stable port is again available. Note that the HP48 source code is freely available and is included in the Truss48 package. Users of Truss49 will have to upgrade to FEM49, which can also handle trusses. Caspar ==== Ahh! I thought the same, until I was enlightened recently. Go to www.calcpro.com, it's under Books - Sci and Graphic Calc, for $29.95 USD -Mike ==== That could work, but wouldn't it make the HP49G even more slow? How much time would this additional work take, compared to the rest of the work that the CAS has to do? Greetings, Nick. ==== One at a time???? This can be extracted from the database with the command edb -action 2 -types U -show_stack 0 -show_comment 0 -show_sections 0 -action 2 means compact ascii listing -types U means to only include User entries. -show... 0 means *not* to include the corresponding information in the output In case you don't have the possibility to run the database program yourself (which requires Perl and (I think) a UNIX system), I have placed the output of the above command at http://zon.astro.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/entries/USERCMDS.txt - Carsten P.S. I should have a web interface for this kind of stuff - but I have no idea how to do it, and no time to find out.... ==== I noticed that some user commands (like xINFORM, xFONT6 and others) do not have the ~ in front of their name to indicate ROMPTRs but they clearly have ROMPTR addresses. Should I just assume all 6 digit addresses are ROMPTRs? -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Graves RKBA! bgraves@ix.netcom.com ==== Only a terminal emulator in flash memory. ==== repair but so far can't find anything. Does anyone have a link to a thread or a web page? Gary completes doesn't it ==== Here is the link: http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&start=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=comp.s ys.hp48&selm=atbbs3%2421l%241%40strauss.udel.edu ==== Store this in a variable - i.e. 'one' STO To run the program, select 'one', and off you go... ==== OK folks - I've got my program to the point where I can get it to prompt for an input (number) - accept the number (as a string I believe) - and then stack. What I'd like to be able to do now is take this value on level 1 of the stack, and write it to a variable (such as 'Runway' or 'WindVelocity') - can anyone steer me in the right direction? Many thanks, ==== 'WindVelocity' STO Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) ==== On one page of independent publisher Grapevine's site is still listed the Easy Course in Using the HP 28S, but it's not on the order form, so perhaps you might contact them to see whether it's still available or has gone extinct. Grapevine Publications Inc. of Corvallis, Oregon http://www.read-gpi.com Do not confuse the above with Grapevine Publications of Boise, Idaho, which turns up on search engines. The latter is offering a reprint of a school history textbook from about 100 years ago, which contains the quoted text below. from LEE'S NEW SCHOOL HISTORY of the UNITED STATES Slavery recognized by the Constitution - ... hundreds of thousands of African slaves had been christianized under slavery's influence. The kindest relations existed between the slaves and their owners. A cruel and neglectful master was rarely found. ...Mr. Lincoln, in the beginning, was unwilling that the question of slavery be considered one of the principle[sic] causes of the war, and admitted that the right to hold slaves was guaranteed by the Constitution. Later on, he acted on the ground that emancipation had become a military necessity. So apparently, all the unkindness must have begun much later, when the high spiritual and moral values of previous generations somehow failed to propagate onwards, according to these folks. . ==== Hey all, I've got an HP 42S in great shape if anyone's interested. My main interest is electric guitar including fooling with tube amps, speakers, old guitar effects, and other music related gear and I'd like to trade the calculator for something along those lines, although I will sell for the best offer if anyone would like to make one. http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mitchdawn.lane/home.html God bless, Mitch Lane Windsor, Nova Scotia Canada ==== As far as I know here in Germany, HP has dropped all the calculators they built ....... Sorry for the bad news! Peer Richard schrieb: -- Ut navem futuri creemus! ==== Harris Technology who I think are the official HP retailer in Aust still have them in stock. Strange thing is that for a calc thats being discontinued the price has gone up from $280 to $315 for the HP49. Stephen.N http://www.shopping.hp.com/cgi-bin/hpdirect/shopping/scripts/generic_store/g eneric_subcategory_view.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0678033475.1040251162@@@@&BV_En gineID=ccdcadchdfdeiglcfngcfkmdfondfgf.0&category=calculators&subcat1=graphi ng&cat_level=1 ==== the HP49G is still very easy to get in the US. for example: http://triointernational.com/Store/view_cart.cfm?shipwzipcode=&prod_num=1000 %20%20%20%200482639&CFID=491336&CFTOKEN=65747275 why don't we ask Carla. she says 'everything is possible' (like a sinking ship?): http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1106-966212.html as far as the new HP calcs, they look no better than a cheapo casio. the only thing good left is the case of the HP48GX. Hp hasn't done anything new worth to mention and don't hold your breath. if they were to come up with something they would have to buy from another company. ==== Yes, it's strange. The 48GX has gone up from about $260 to $324 very recently as well. The main issue is that the 48G+ model has been out of stock for some time. A batch came through about three months ago, which had very old serial numbers. The main supplier in Australia, Tech-Pacific has a large number of 48G+ on back order. It's also odd that bundles of five 48G+ have gone up from $880 to $1086, that's an increase of 23%, on stock that does not seem to exist !!! Of course, HP are not in the habit of announcing discontinuation of products, it just happens ! It appears as though HP have put the axe through the older calculator range to make way for the new. Add the 9G and 9S and drop the 49G and 48G+. It seems to make sense (to them). HP will keep the 48GX warhorse going, probably because of the big demand for it in the US, where RAM card software is still very popular. Richard ==== I have an HP-49G and the I/O or serial port does not work. Is there anyone out there that knows how to repair this? Please let me know. Jeff --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ==== Please, see the next instruction from FAQs.(http://ca-on.hpcalc.org): 6.2 No matter what I do, I cannot get my HP49 to communicate with some computers Early versions of the HP49 (those with serial number under ID94...) have a buggy serial port. If you have one of these calculators, call HP tech support and get the calculator replaced with a fixed model. First reported by Marcel Flipse, the first HP49's had improperly wired serial port buffers, causing them to send a weakened/distorted signal. This causes computers with off-brand motherboards (including Macintoshes) to have trouble communicating with the calculator. Is this your problem ?. If this, then you have a solution. Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK **************************************************************************** **** ==== Can I somehow turn ALPHA mode ON for just one input in INFORM form? For example: ..input number= .. ..input number= .. ..input string= ... INFORM... I would like that ALPHA mode is activated just for string input. Is it possible?? And one more - beside Programing in User RPL by E.M.Kalinowski, where can I learn more of this subject?? ==== Is there a program to the hp49 that can decrypt a letter addition. For example: SEND +MORE ----- MONEY Here is D=2, E=7, N=1, R=6, O=4, S=3 and M=0 TIA Nikodemus -- Get my public pgp key at http://www.algonet.se/~nickek/pubkey.asc ==== You are very welcome, Matt! So happy to hear that they helped preventing you from turning to a clone ;-). Bhuvanesh, don't hit me on the head! ;-) Greetings, Nick. P.S.: About the dark side, well Matt, I keep on going there once in a while and believe me, it's not dark! The light has a different color, but dark it isn't. ==== Nick - You do helluva job with the marathons - you blend programming tips, mathemtical theory, and graphics all into one nice package. Keep up the good work. Glenn ==== I have created a program and have the need to switch from one of the inner nested menus back to the original of the program. What is the best way to accomplish this in Sys RPL? Please let me know. Jeff --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ==== Does anyone know the protocol used in the output from the HP-49g to the overhead screen? I am thinking about making an external screen with possibly a touchscreen that uses the serial port to give the coordinates of the touch. I do know, however, that the cable packaged with my calculator does not have any throughput for the overhead display, so I would have to make my own cable. ==== maybe www.hpcalc.org could be a good place to look. ==== i used to be able to communicate with my 48gx through the pc connectivity software from hp. now, i cant seem to connect. ive tried all the basic troubleshooting methods, like different com ports, different serial ports on my computer for the cable, different computers...is there anything i could be missing? i'd hate to have to buy another 48gx. off to find some FAQ's on hpcalc.org, any info is much appreciated. help out this fool :) CJ ==== Just one stupid question. Have you set the I/O on the 48 to wire, or is it possibly set to IR? Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) ==== not a stupid question, because i havent thought of that. i'll check it when i get back to my calc. i think it may be set to wire, because i dont think i changed anything since the last time i connected. CJ on could FAQ's it ==== CJ Reynolds: Hardware port (and cable) loop-back test on any HP48: Connect the middle two serial port pins to each other (or connect pins 2 and 3 at the PC end of the cable), then: ON+A+D [enter test mode] PRG(H) [look for OK result, a numeric code is an error] ON+C [terminate test mode] Clear flag -33 (and set flag -34 for print commands, if any). The set state of flag -34 should be called print via serial rather than print via wire, because the output port still depends on flag -33 (serial using wire vs. serial using IR). . ==== PC but i didn't find the spec about the communicaton protocol on http://www.hpcalc.org I find al lot of programms there, for example games for the HP49G or librarys for grafic software development. But what i need is the spec how to communicate with the HP49G from a PC over the serial port. Greetings M.Incani ==== anything, the HP49 uses standard and reliable protocols, and the whatever... -- ----- Rappel .88 tous : Il serait pr.8ef.8erable de BIEN LIRE la question avant de r.8epondre, la salari.8ee est prot.8eg.8ee puisqu'elle est D.83L.83GU.83E SYNDICALE -+-JG in GNU : Le p.8fre Emptoire s'enmm.8fle les pinceaux -+- ==== Not sure what I was doing wrong - but I've got this part to work now :) HP49G - ==== These variables, like Xt, Xtt, Xttt and so on, are used internally by the CAS. Sometimes, when for example the CAS tries to find some integral but at the end it fails, it doesn't re-transform those variables back to the original names that you used. And so you get these names in the resulting expressions. A bit annoying it might be, but not so mysterious. Greetings, Nick. ==== It came with ROM version 1.18. I was wondering whether I should upgrade this ROM or not. The latest I could find is 1.19-5, but I heard some issues concerning it. What's the best ROM to use at this moment, what are all you 49g users running? Much thanks... ==== issues AFAIK it's 1.19-6 Raymond ==== The latest ROM available is 1.19-6. I ve been using it for a while and it seems to be very steady, and much better than 1.18. Most of the users of this group seem to be using 1.19-6, too, so don t hesitate to upgrade! Check this site: http://etud.epita.fr:8000/~avenar_j/hp/49.html Alex Markatis Civil Engineer Greece = Hellas ==== Ok, thank you gentlemen, I will follow your advice. I am still a little upset about getting the HP instead of the TI-89, but somehow I feel like I made the right choice. Anything to cheer me up? (I'm trying to do trig indentities, and it's not working out too good.) issues ==== Go to WWW.hpcalc.org and get the trigonometry marathon. It gives all the HP49 tricks and has numerous examples. Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) ==== No, that's just the way HP decided to do things. Some ways to deal with it: Set modes & flags the way you want, then: HOME RCLF 'MYFLAGS' STO Then, whenever you want to recover your own preferred mode settings, just type MF (or assign 'MF' to a keyboard location). You might as well set flag -120 before storing your preferred flags as above, which will eliminate most of the dialog boxes which would otherwise pop up (except for the purge variable dialog). Another approach, which may be most useful in programs: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CB94E4C.AB177E90%40miu.edu . ==== And the commands PUSH POP offer yet another possibility. PUSH saves your flags (and current working directory), and POP re-stores them again. Greetings, Nick.