B319 Seen re entering multiple guesses: > I've never seen it mentioned even once. Entering one guess is mentioned in the 48 series users guides; entering multiple guesses is probably mentioned in the AUR, and in Donnelly's HP48 handbooks. Entering multiple guesses is also a very old HP numeric solver feature; I don't know whether it was in the HP71B (1984-1989, first calc using Saturn CPU), but it certainly was present in the HP18C (1986-1988 financial calc), and later in the HP17B[ii] and HP19B[ii] (later financial models), and I'd guess in various scientific models as well. In those menu-based numeric solvers, you could enter one guess by storing it into the variable to be solved for, and you could enter a second guess by storing the second guess into the same variable, just before requesting the numeric root. Apparently you had to wait for the HP48 (or 28S/C?) to be granted three guesses, as in all standard fairy tales. So, it's by now all ancient history ((o)) With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu . > Entering one guess is mentioned in the 48 series users guides; > entering multiple guesses is probably mentioned in the AUR, > and in Donnelly's HP48 handbooks. The stack syntax of ROOT shows that one can use a list as guesses, but this list is not mentioned in the text at all. I hadn't given it much thought only seeing that stack syntax. > Entering multiple guesses is also a very old > HP numeric solver feature; I don't know whether > it was in the HP71B (1984-1989, first calc using Saturn CPU), > but it certainly was present in the HP18C (1986-1988 financial calc), > and later in the HP17B[ii] and HP19B[ii] (later financial models), > and I'd guess in various scientific models as well. I haven't used any of those calcs more than briefly. > Apparently you had to wait for the HP48 (or 28S/C?) > to be granted three guesses, as in all standard fairy tales. And the list is not explained in either of the HP48 manuals (S, G or AUR). I didn't look through Donnelly's books just now, but I trust You if You say it's in there. I would hardly call it a documented feature, if you have to go through Donnelly's books to find it (but if you are curious enough to experiment, you will find that it can be from one to three). Donnelly's fine handbook illustrates a single guess without a list, and also two or three guesses in a list; meanwhile, Donnelly's smaller pocket reference book shows only a single guess, while Grapevine's pocket guide shows only a list of guesses :) Getting different (or only partial) information from different sources is a pervasive element in life experience; we may let it limit us, or we may explore and find out for ourselves. Mini-challenge for HP12C owners: There are two useful (and even obvious) commands which are even programmable, but which are found in no documentation that I have ever seen, from HP or other publishers; what are they? This illustrates, by the way, how an original author or architect may have implemented a truly complete vision, which subsequent documenters have always overlooked; consider the possibility that even the universe's author or architect might have implemented features which you can access, but which, because no one among its interpreters has yet told you or taught you, you may be missing out on. With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu . My addition to the text below is: { 0. 1. } will search a ROOT _between_ the numbers. If there are multiple roots this may help you to select the interesting domain OR if you know that there surely is a root between the numbers the solver will also find it. a single number will have a partner or pare generated by the calculator close to users number. { .5 0. 1. } will search a ROOT between 0. 1. with a best guess of 0.5 (where to start the search) If you provide a good approx. the root will be found faster. The best guess may also have units attached to it. [ON] key press should give the current list of three numbers and you can start over. Pressing any other key while in the SOLVER will show the current two guesses in the status area. I tested this in my HP 48GX and in my HP 49G I get an Extremum...and that is another story which I hope that Nick will tell you! > I am able to invoke the solver (using 30 MENU) >but cannot automatically solve for one of the variables >and return back, without any user interaction. 'expression' 'name' guess(es) ROOT Example: 'EXP(X)-LN(X)=5.' 'X' 1. ROOT The result 1.71152201393 is both returned on the stack > and stored in the named variable 'X' Note that the equation is supplied on the stack > (reserved variable 'EQ' is not used). Any other variables in the equation must have > predefined numeric values (units are permitted). Guess(es) means either one numeric value, > or a list of from one to three numeric values, > which the solver will try first. A guess of 0. is equivalent to the list { 0. 1. } Menu 30 is basically just a convenient user interface for invoking > the ROOT command; the expression is taken from the variable 'EQ' > and the guess(es) are taken from the initial contents > of the variable being solved for, or { 0. 1. } > if the variable doesn't initially exist. > ((o)) Best wishes from http://www.mum.edu A bit late because I was away last week, here are my observations: > My addition to the text below is: > { 0. 1. } will search a ROOT _between_ the numbers. > If there are multiple roots this may help you to select the > interesting domain OR if you know that there surely is > a root between the numbers the solver will also find it. a single number will have a partner or pare > generated by the calculator close to users number. { .5 0. 1. } will search a ROOT between 0. 1. > with a best guess of 0.5 (where to start the search) > If you provide a good approx. the root will be found faster. > The best guess may also have units attached to it. [ON] key press should give the current list of three numbers > and you can start over. > Pressing any other key while in the SOLVER > will show the current two guesses in the status area. > I tested this in my HP 48GX and in my HP 49G I get an Extremum...and that is another story > which I hope that Nick will tell you! > then solved for X. The HP49G almost immediatelly returned X:0. So far so good. Then Is stored 0. (the solution itself) in X and solved again for X. Result: X:0 . OK. I tried again storing .5 in X prior to solving for X. The returned solution is now not 0. but X: 3.41071649952E-6 . EXPR returns Expr:0. Understandable: Starting at .5 and variating X to lower values eventually comes to X=3.41071649952E-6 . Now, e^(3.41071649952E-6) evaluates to 1.00000341072 on the HP49G. e^(3.41071649952E-6)-3.41071649952E-6 evaluates to 1. due to roundoffs. And e^(3.41071649952E-6)-3.41071649952E-6-1 evaluates to 0. So the numeric solver, which also evaluates the function values for different values of X, just stops here. The reason for finding X:0. when we give an initial guess 0. or {0.5 0. 1.} for X , is that then the solver has a start or a boundary value that equals the solution itself. If we solve again with an initial guess of {0.5 -.1 .8} , then the returned solution is X:(-2.29964292526E-6). (For the same reasons as above.) extremal value of 0. but that is OK, or did you mean something else Veli-Pekka? So (in this case) menu 30. seems to do its job OK, or Nick seems to be too blockie to understand what the problem is Nick. I am able to invoke the solver (using 30 MENU) >> but cannot automatically solve for one of the variables >> and return back, without any user interaction. 'expression' 'name' guess(es) ROOT Example: 'EXP(X)-LN(X)=5.' 'X' 1. ROOT The result 1.71152201393 is both returned on the stack >and stored in the named variable 'X' Note that the equation is supplied on the stack >(reserved variable 'EQ' is not used). Any other variables in the equation must have >predefined numeric values (units are permitted). Guess(es) means either one numeric value, >or a list of from one to three numeric values, >which the solver will try first. A guess of 0. is equivalent to the list { 0. 1. } Menu 30 is basically just a convenient user interface for invoking >the ROOT command; the expression is taken from the variable 'EQ' >and the guess(es) are taken from the initial contents >of the variable being solved for, or { 0. 1. } >if the variable doesn't initially exist. > ((o)) Best wishes from http://www.mum.edu > > . Seen: > [Guesses] { 0. 1. } will search a ROOT _between_ the numbers. Only if the expression has opposite signs at the two guesses; otherwise it looks outside the original range, as you'd expect. The calc actually always needs two guesses to get started, so if you supply only one guess, the calc supplies another, by changing one digit of the mantissa (IIRC the 7th digit of any non-zero guess); then it usually looks outside that range, because those two initial guesses are mighty close together :) -[]- . I'm hoping someone might be able to help me. I'm attempting to symbolically integrate Cos (ln x). What I get is: INT(COS(LN(Xt)),Xt,X) With my TI-89 I get x/2*cos(ln x) + x/2*(sin(ln x) which is the correct answer. Why won't the HP seemingly handle this or possibly what am I doing wrong? I put cos(ln x) into register y and x into register x then choose Risch. ce I would just love to tell you RTFM but there is none to read :-) The HP49G, unlike the TI89 auto-junk, needs a knowledgable user to master. Try integration by parts (IBP command) and then start complaining. !Demeter! I'm hoping someone might be able to help me. I'm attempting to symbolically >integrate Cos (ln x). What I get is: INT(COS(LN(Xt)),Xt,X) With my TI-89 I get x/2*cos(ln x) + x/2*(sin(ln x) which is the correct >answer. Why won't the HP seemingly handle this or possibly what am I doing wrong? I >put cos(ln x) into register y and x into register x then choose Risch. >... One of the many reasons why some people prefer TI89 over the HP49 :-( One possible way to overcome this unfortunate for the HP49 situation: With INT(COS(LN(Xt)),Xt,X) still on the stack, hit 'Xt=EXP(U)' and then SUBST and after that EVAL, and you will have the same correct answer as the TI89 gives immediately. Hope that helps, --- Ralf Fritzsch Bundesanstalt fuer Wasserbau Federal Waterways Engineering and Research Dienststelle Kueste Institute - Department Hamburg --- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are. --- c_elber@anonemoose.com says... > With INT(COS(LN(Xt)),Xt,X) still on the stack, hit 'Xt=EXP(U)' and then > SUBST and after that EVAL, and you will have the same correct answer as > the TI89 gives immediately. Ralf; this type of thing in the future I know what to do. Othertimes I've done integrations I've seen this. Will setting Xt=e to the U always work? What precisely is Xt? Why does the HP sub this in I've seen it do it in other integrals what does it mean? I've got Urroz's books now but don't see this (although between the two volumes there is a whole lotta ground to cover) if you know where it is in the Urroz books I'd be happy to read on it. Unfortunately attempting to learn the math AND the calc at the same time makes it pretty tough. Carmen >With INT(COS(LN(Xt)),Xt,X) still on the stack, hit 'Xt=EXP(U)' and then >SUBST and after that EVAL, and you will have the same correct answer as >the TI89 gives immediately. Ralf; > this type of thing in the future I know what to do. Othertimes I've done > integrations I've seen this. Will setting Xt=e to the U always work? What > Carmen OK, this trick is called substitution and allows you to move ahead with integration by parts (IBP). Note that you may write cos(ln(x))=cos(u) where u=lnx so that by raising both sides to the e power allows us to rewrite it as e^u=e^lnx=x and thus dx=e^u du. Now you can rewrite the original integrand as cos(ln(x))dx=e^u cos(u)du. Feed this stuff to level 2 and in level 1 give it the integral of e^u which is, again, e^u (even TI users know that, I think). Switch to complex mode and type IBP. Now switch to real mode and do INTVX. Finally add the result and you get the formula you so much desire :-) It is rather involved, I admit, but with an HP you can become better if you know where to start from although it won't teach you math! Do not forget to look IBP in the AUG for details. !Demeter! is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. Martin > is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. So, with the definition of ERFC as: << -> X << 0. 0.5 X UTPN DUP + >> >> you can solve your problem: 'ERFC(u)=0.0001' 'u' 1.0 ROOT yields 2.75106390571 Werner >is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. > So, with the definition of ERFC as: > << > -> X > << 0. 0.5 X UTPN DUP + > you can solve your problem: 'ERFC(u)=0.0001' > 'u' > 1.0 > ROOT yields 2.75106390571 Werner The Bessel library from hpcalc has many special functions, incl. one called ERF. Maybe you can use some of those functions? Gjermund ... > is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. > is there a way to calculate the erfc function on hp49? >And if soo, can it solve erfc(u)=0.0001 solve u. >Martin > InverseErfc(x) = InverseErf(1-x) So if you have an InverseErf function... Let's see. According to http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Erfc.html, erfc(x) := a*INT(x,oo,exp(-t^2),t) with a = 2/SQRT(PI) According to the AUG, the 48/49 have a function UTPN defined as UTPN(m,v,x) := b*INT(x,oo,exp(-(t-m)^2/(2*v),t) with b = 1/SQRT(2*PI*v) So.. erfc(x) = 2*UTPN(0.,0.5,x) or @ERFC << -> x << 0. 0.5 x UTPN DUP + >> >> Werner Huysegoms I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of one do they? Well, I don't really need a picture > I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of one do they? Salut, CdB Loan a digital camera from your company take the picture and publish it on your web-site where we can admire it's beauty. > Well, I don't really need a picture >I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of one do they? Remember, beauty is more than skin deep! Steve > Salut, CdB > Loan a digital camera from your company > take the picture and publish it on your web-site > where we can admire it's beauty. >Well, I don't really need a picture >I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of one do they? Please send me a manual of HP 15C. Andy.- > Please send me a manual of HP 15C. It's on CD1 at http://www.hpmuseum.org/cd/cddesc.htm Send US$15 plus postage and you'll get it, along with lots more (e.g. the HP15C Advanced Functions handbook); ordering info is near the bottom of the page. Of course, manuals are cheaper by the carload ($35 for the entire collection of 5 cds, which you'll never finish reading :) ((o)) . Andy schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Please send me a manual of HP 15C. > Please take a look at the classified ads section on www.hpmuseum.org Raymond Raymond: I thank your answer but it doesn't serve me: I live in Chile and it is very difficult to obtain those CD's. The idea was to obtain a basic guide of the HP 15C... Andy. Raymond Hellstern escribi.97 en el > Andy schrieb im Newsbeitrag >Please send me a manual of HP 15C. > Please take a look at the classified ads section on www.hpmuseum.org Raymond > Raymond: > I thank your answer but it doesn't serve me: I live in Chile and it is very > difficult to obtain those CD's. > The idea was to obtain a basic guide of the HP 15C... How is it any harder to receive CDs in Chile than to receive books? Eric: I don't understand your question... In any event already I have the Owner's Handbook (November 1985) of the HP 15C, Andy. ------------ >Raymond: >I thank your answer but it doesn't serve me: I live in Chile and it is very >difficult to obtain those CD's. >The idea was to obtain a basic guide of the HP 15C... How is it any harder to receive CDs in Chile than to receive books? Why would obtaining a physical guide be any easier than a CD rom? I don't understand that. I must be missing something. Gene -- * All opinions herein expressed are mine and * * mine alone. You may choose to ignore them * * but I own them. * > Raymond: > I thank your answer but it doesn't serve me: I live in Chile and it is very > difficult to obtain those CD's. > The idea was to obtain a basic guide of the HP 15C... > Andy. Raymond Hellstern escribi.97 en el >Andy schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> Please send me a manual of HP 15C. Please take a look at the classified ads section on www.hpmuseum.org Raymond > > don't. For instance what do the HP-1x series use in them? Are they Saturn based? -- > don't. For instance what do the HP-1x series use in them? Are they Saturn > based? The Voyager series (HP-10C, -11C, -12C, -15C, and -16C) use the Nut processor that was first used in the HP-41C (Coconut). For many years the Voyagers used the same actual processor die (but in a QFP package rather than a DIP). Later cost-reduced versions of the 12C have integrated more functions onto fewer chips, resulting in a single-chip version, but the CPU still has the same architecture. The HP-71B, clamshell, Pioneer, and graphing calculators use variants of Saturn. The HP 10BII uses a Mitsubishi processor that is a 6502-derivative. I have no idea what sort of processor is used in the HP 6S, 6S Solar, and 30S. They were not designed by HP. >don't. For instance what do the HP-1x series use in them? Are they Saturn >based? The HP-71B was the first calculator to use the Saturn. Everything after it made use of the Saturn except the HP-1x series and some of the newest algebraic models. ( HP-10BII I believe employs some type of microcontroller to emulate the old Saturn chip that the 10B used to use. I don't what the 30S and the 6S use ) The HP-1x series used a derivative of the HP-41 NUT processor. See http://www.hpmuseum.org/tech10.htm . ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. In message , Jonathan Busby >The HP-71B was the first calculator to use the Saturn. Everything after >it made use of the Saturn except the HP-1x series and some of the >newest algebraic models. ( HP-10BII I believe employs some type of >microcontroller to emulate the old Saturn chip that the 10B used to >use. I don't what the 30S and the 6S use ) The HP10BII uses a 6502 core. No emulation - the math routines were re-written in C just for it. This fact brought to you courtesy of the HPCC Conference in London, 21-22 September 2002. -- Bruce Horrocks Hampshire England bh@granby.demon.co.uk On Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:30:15 +0100, Bruce Horrocks >In message , Jonathan Busby >>The HP-71B was the first calculator to use the Saturn. Everything after >>it made use of the Saturn except the HP-1x series and some of the >>newest algebraic models. ( HP-10BII I believe employs some type of >>microcontroller to emulate the old Saturn chip that the 10B used to >>use. I don't what the 30S and the 6S use ) The HP10BII uses a 6502 core. No emulation - the math routines were >re-written in C just for it. This fact brought to you courtesy of the HPCC Conference in London, >21-22 September 2002. > Hmmm... I guess I was remembering wrong. (that's a surprise ;) So the correct term should be simulate? (at least for the math routines) For the rest, I don't know if the 10BII resembles the 10B, just with prettier packaging. Maybe someone that has used it can chime in. ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. > Hmmm... I guess I was remembering wrong. (that's a surprise ;) So the > correct term should be simulate? (at least for the math routines) No, it's not simulating anything either. The code has been carefully written from scratch to produce the same numeric results. In other words, it's new code implementing the same algorithms. On 27 Sep 2002 17:44:38 -0700, Eric Smith >> Hmmm... I guess I was remembering wrong. (that's a surprise ;) So the >> correct term should be simulate? (at least for the math routines) No, it's not simulating anything either. The code has been carefully >written from scratch to produce the same numeric results. In other >words, it's new code implementing the same algorithms. > But this is the definition of simulate. ;) To rephrase the second part of my question I was wondering if the user interface has also been rewritten to produce similar behavior. ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. before we're getting too off-topic: Consider the 'HP-41CV Emulator Card' for the HP-48 as a simulation, in contrast to the program from HrastProgrammer which is an emulation. The HP/Zengrange card just simulates to be something like an HP-41, HrastProgrammer's software emulates the HP-41 hardware in software, so the original ROM images can be used. Raymond Jonathan Busby schrieb im Newsbeitrag > On 27 Sep 2002 17:44:38 -0700, Eric Smith >> Hmmm... I guess I was remembering wrong. (that's a surprise ;) So the > correct term should be simulate? (at least for the math routines) No, it's not simulating anything either. The code has been carefully written from scratch to produce the same numeric results. In other words, it's new code implementing the same algorithms. But this is the definition of simulate. ;) To rephrase the second part of my question I was wondering if the user > interface has also been rewritten to produce similar behavior. > ---- ----- Jonathan Busby - before replying. > On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:47:00 +0200, Raymond Hellstern before we're getting too off-topic: Consider the 'HP-41CV Emulator Card' for the HP-48 as a simulation, >in contrast to the program from HrastProgrammer which is an emulation. The HP/Zengrange card just simulates to be something like an HP-41, >HrastProgrammer's software emulates the HP-41 hardware in software, >so the original ROM images can be used. >Raymond These are exactly the definitions I was thinking of when I used emulate and simulate . There are a multitude of software projects that describe themselves as emulators and conform to the definition of something that replicates the external and *internal* behavior of some architecture by accepting the same data/programs and producing the same results. ( see http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulate ) I can also think of many instances where the word simulation is applied to something that replicates the external ( ie. interface ) behavior of something to a close degree but operates differently internally. Some examples are a flight simulator, a mechanical arcade machine simulator, a HDL test bench program with behavioral simulation of say memory chips , and the list goes on. This would fit with my usage of simulate to describe the 10BII math functions because of the fact that they have the same external behavior as the 10B functions but on a low level they operate differently internally. Of course, there are also many counterexamples to the above. I think it's just a matter of personal preference and is also dependent on what context you're working in. ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. > I think > it's just a matter of personal preference and is also dependent on > what context you're working in. Yes. And in the context of computers, the engineers who developed the System/360 at IBM *invented* emulation and defined what it means. I have never seen any historical record of the word emulate being used in any reference to computers prior to 1964, though certainly the word existed with non-computer-specific meaning before that. Unless there's a very good reason for it, why should we abuse the term to mean something else? That can only lead to confusion. > Consider the 'HP-41CV Emulator Card' for the HP-48 as a simulation, > in contrast to the program from HrastProgrammer which is an emulation. The HP/Zengrange card just simulates to be something like an HP-41, > HrastProgrammer's software emulates the HP-41 hardware in software, > so the original ROM images can be used. Except that emulation was defined by its inventors at IBM to mean simulation with hardware and/or microcode assistance. HrastProgrammer's software simulates the 41 hardware at a low level, but it doesn't have any special hardware or microcode assistance, so it is not emulation. _IBM's Early Computers_, Charles J. Bashe et al _IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems_, Emerson W. Pugh et al _Building IBM: Shaping an Industry and its Technology, Emerson W. Pugh _IBM Dictionary of Computing_, George McDaniel Eric Smith schrieb im Newsbeitrag >Consider the 'HP-41CV Emulator Card' for the HP-48 as a simulation, >in contrast to the program from HrastProgrammer which is an emulation. The HP/Zengrange card just simulates to be something like an HP-41, >HrastProgrammer's software emulates the HP-41 hardware in software, >so the original ROM images can be used. Except that emulation was defined by its inventors at IBM to mean > simulation with hardware and/or microcode assistance. HrastProgrammer's > software simulates the 41 hardware at a low level, but it doesn't have > any special hardware or microcode assistance, so it is not emulation. > It was defined by people at IBM for their type of emulation, where is the problem that other people may have redefined the meaning? Take, for example, any terminal emulator program for a PC. None of those can rely on a real terminal hardware, but I never heard someone talk about those programs as simulators. Take Emu48: It uses the original ROM images, so it can be considered as emulation. Even the HP/Zengrange product I mentioned in my earlier post used 'Emulator' as part of the official HP product name, which I consider wrong. It doesn't matter if it's tied to hardware, like the 8086 emulation in a Pentium processor, or in software, like Emu48 (or nearly any other emulator out there) It's just an other abstraction layer. It seems that the words 'simulation' and 'emulation' and their meaning can be interpreted somehow If there is enough interest, you could ask the author of Emu48 and the other guys about their understanding regarding this topic. However, I don't care too much about the difference. Raymond > Except that emulation was defined by its inventors at IBM to mean > simulation with hardware and/or microcode assistance. HrastProgrammer's > software simulates the 41 hardware at a low level, but it doesn't have > any special hardware or microcode assistance, so it is not emulation. > It was defined by people at IBM for their type of emulation, > where is the problem that other people may have redefined the meaning? It was defined by people at IBM for a new form of computer simulation that involved hardware or microcode assistance. As the inventors of this technique, they certainly have some priority in terms of defining what the word means in this field. Certainly the word emulate existed before 1964, but not with any meaning particularly significant to computers. If the other people you refer to have actually invented something new, then by all means they should get to name it. But they haven't. They're just trying to change the definition of a word for no good reason. Given that there is a perfectly good word (simulate) to describe software that makes one computer execute software for another *without* special microcode and hardware, using the word emulate to mean the same thing does not provide any benefit. It is useful to have two words that describe the same process with or without the hardware/microcode assistance; making one of those words refer to both just confuses the issue. > Take, for example, any terminal emulator program for a PC. > None of those can rely on a real terminal hardware, > but I never heard someone talk about those programs as simulators. True. I'm not sure how that terminology came into place. But it is a different situation than making one computer execute instructions written for another. > Take Emu48: It uses the original ROM images, > so it can be considered as emulation. Emu48 does a darned good job of simulating the HP 48 hardware, and running the ROMs. But calling it an emulator does not change its nature, nor does it clarify anything. There is a distinction between instruction-level simulation and high-level functional simulation, but this is completely orthogonal to the distinction between simulation and emulation. If we use your definitions of simulate and emulate, it would suggest that a terminal emulator should really be called a terminal simulator, since it doesn't run the ROM code of the original terminal. > If I write some software for the HP-48, I can test the *actual* binary for > the real machine in Emu48. > Emu48 runs exactly the same binary as the real hardware. If it were a simulation, I would have to write maybe similar, but > *different* code for it. > That's exactly what distinguishes an emulation from a simulation. No, it's not. I cited some authoritative references for the definition of emulation. Can you cite some for your definition? To make it short: Even IBM talks of 'Terminal Emulation' when they talk about software for a specific machine (e.g. PC) to do as if it were another. http://www.networking.ibm.com/525/525files.html and many many other places. So if even the inventors use the word 'emulation' for software alone w/o hardware/microcode support, Emu48 is an emulator. The text behind the following link http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulate is printed below (after the '>'): >Computer Science. >To imitate the function of (another system), > Yes >as by modifications to hardware or software > Yes. Note *or software* >that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, > Yes >execute the same programs, > Yes >and achieve the same results as the imitated system. > Yes According to the above definition Emu48 is an emulator. Period. Raymond X >Take Emu48: It uses the original ROM images, >so it can be considered as emulation. Emu48 does a darned good job of simulating the HP 48 hardware, and running > the ROMs. But calling it an emulator does not change its nature, nor does > it clarify anything. X I still prefer to use the word emulation here, since the hardware is also simulated, not just the software eg. userlanguage & interface. So I disagree with Eric (for the first time :) It's time to change the old IBM definition!! Veli-Pekka PS: Is firmware the ROM of a calc or the microcode in the CPU ??? ~( :-o) The great and momentous Simulation vs. Emulation debate rages on! Prior competing definitions and historical references omitted, but just to add some more chaos to the above: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=simulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=presently When I use a word, Humpty-Dumpty said, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less - Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass... (1872) And I am right, and you are right, and all is right as right can be - W. S. Gilbert (The Mikado) . The great and momentous Simulation vs. Emulation debate rages on! Prior competing definitions and historical references omitted, but just to add some more chaos to the above: http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=simulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=emulate http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=presently When I use a word, Humpty-Dumpty said, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less - Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass... (1872) And I am right, and you are right, and all is right as right can be - W. S. Gilbert (The Mikado) . > No, it's not simulating anything either. The code has been carefully > written from scratch to produce the same numeric results. In other > words, it's new code implementing the same algorithms. > But this is the definition of simulate. ;) simulate (v.t. [imp. & p.p. Simulated; p. pr. & vb. n. Simulating] To assume the mere appearance of, without the reality; to assume the signs or indications of, flasely; to counterfeit; to feign. -- Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary If I buy a 2002 Mazda to replace my 1992 model, it will still get me to and from work just fine. But I don't claim that the 2002 model simulates the 1992 model. The 10BII has genuine math routines. They don't simulate anything. On 27 Sep 2002 19:16:13 -0700, Eric Smith >> No, it's not simulating anything either. The code has been carefully >> written from scratch to produce the same numeric results. In other >> words, it's new code implementing the same algorithms. > But this is the definition of simulate. ;) simulate (v.t. [imp. & p.p. Simulated; p. pr. & vb. n. Simulating] To >assume the mere appearance of, without the reality; to assume the signs >or indications of, flasely; to counterfeit; to feign. > -- Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary If I buy a 2002 Mazda to replace my 1992 model, it will still get me >to and from work just fine. But I don't claim that the 2002 model >simulates the 1992 model. The 10BII has genuine math routines. They don't simulate anything. I think I know the definition of a common English word - I've been speaking the language for 22 years. Perhaps you need to work out some personal issues since you feel the need to patronize people over extremely trivial matters. If you want to nitpick, then consulting http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=simulate gives a definition which reads : 1. a. To have or take on the appearance, form, or sound of; imitate. b. To make in imitation of or as a substitute for. 2. To make a pretense of; feign: simulate interest. 3. To create a representation or model of (a physical system or particular situation, for example). So, you are saying the following sentence is semantically incorrect ? : The new math functions take on the behavior of the old ones while being different internally. Replace take on with sentences that fit with this usage. Wow. I thought I had finished English class a long time ago. And of all places, I'm relearning the joy of this great language right here. Let me ask you a question. Do you point out subtle differences in your interpretation of word semantics with *everyone* you talk to, or do you just do it here? ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. > Do you point out subtle differences in your interpretation of word > semantics with *everyone* you talk to, or do you just do it here? No. Having published five simulators as free software (GPL), and having contributed code to a simulator that tens of thousands of people use (maybe more), I think I have some idea as to what the term means. I'll concede that other people might be more expert in this area than I am. You can obviously choose to use whatever definition for simulate you like, but I don't know anyone else who would view a piece of code rewritten to run natively on a different processor to be a simulation. That's certainly not common usage in the industry. More typically that might be referred to as porting, although that term can also be used in reference to making relatively small changes to source code written in a high level language for use on a different platform. Another sure way to start an argument is to bring up the difference between simulate and emulate; nearly everyone uses the latter when they mean the former. On 27 Sep 2002 20:56:37 -0700, Eric Smith >Another sure way to start an argument is to bring up the difference >between simulate and emulate; nearly everyone uses the latter when >they mean the former. So if I said The new math functions emulate the behavior of the old ones then would you be happy? ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. > Another sure way to start an argument is to bring up the difference > between simulate and emulate; nearly everyone uses the latter when > they mean the former. > So if I said The new math functions emulate the behavior of the old > ones then would you be happy? Not especially. The term emulate as applied to computers was first used for publication by IBM in 1964. They defined emulation as the use of one processor or system to simulate another through the use of hardware and/or microcode assistance. Specifically, various IBM 360 models offered optional emulation features which included extended microcode to allow the processor to run code for older IBM computers, such as the 1401 and 7090. In more recent years, the most common form of emulation is the In Circuit Emulator (ICE), a tool commonly used for embedded system development. I think the most appropriate terms to describe what the software engineers did to produce the HP 10BII firmware are port (as mentioned in my last posting) or reimplement. On 27 Sep 2002 22:50:15 -0700, Eric Smith >> Another sure way to start an argument is to bring up the difference >> between simulate and emulate; nearly everyone uses the latter when >> they mean the former. > So if I said The new math functions emulate the behavior of the old >> ones then would you be happy? Not especially. The term emulate as applied to computers was first used >for publication by IBM in 1964. They defined emulation as the use of one >processor or system to simulate another through the use of hardware and/or >microcode assistance. Specifically, various IBM 360 models offered optional >emulation features which included extended microcode to allow the processor >to run code for older IBM computers, such as the 1401 and 7090. In more recent years, the most common form of emulation is the In Circuit >Emulator (ICE), a tool commonly used for embedded system development. I think the most appropriate terms to describe what the software engineers did >to produce the HP 10BII firmware are port (as mentioned in my last posting) >or reimplement. Since I don't want this to draw on forever I'll just state that I don't agree and leave it at that. But perhaps if we use a more neutral synonym we can satisfy everyone's need for verbal perfection. The new math functions [blank] the behavior of the old ones. [blank] = imitate|copy|mirror|reflect|reproduce|match|parallel Take your pick ;) ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. Jonathan Busby schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I don't. For instance what do the HP-1x series use in them? Are they Saturn based? > The HP-71B was the first calculator to use the Saturn. Everything > after it made use of the Saturn except the HP-1x series and some of > the newest algebraic models. ( HP-10BII I believe employs some type of > microcontroller to emulate the old Saturn chip that the 10B used to > use. I don't what the 30S and the 6S use ) The Bert, Lewis, Clarke and Yorke are special chips having a Saturn kernel. The following list may be incompleted, because I made it from my mind. - Saturn HP71B, HP18C, HP28C - 1LU7 Bert HP10B, HP20S - Lewis HP17B, 17BII, 19B, 19BII, 27S, 28S, 42S - Clarke HP48S, HP48SX - Yorke HP38G, HP39G, HP40G, HP48G, HP48G+, HP48GX, HP49G All other HP calculators don't use a Saturn processor kernel and that are of course much more that I listed above. Christoph On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:14:34 +0200, Christoph Giesselink >The Bert, Lewis, Clarke and Yorke are special chips having a Saturn kernel. >The following list may be incompleted, because I made it from my mind. - Saturn >HP71B, HP18C, HP28C - 1LU7 Bert >HP10B, HP20S - Lewis >HP17B, 17BII, 19B, 19BII, 27S, 28S, 42S - Clarke >HP48S, HP48SX - Yorke >HP38G, HP39G, HP40G, HP48G, HP48G+, HP48GX, HP49G >All other HP calculators don't use a Saturn processor kernel and that are of >course much more that I listed above. Christoph > There's also the Saca (Sacajawea) chip which is used by the 14B, 22S, 32S, and 32SII . (if my sources are correct) According to the same 16 KB and 512 KB respectively ) and with a one line alphanumeric display controller instead of a 7 segment one. ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. Jonathan Busby schrieb im Newsbeitrag There's also the Saca (Sacajawea) chip which is used by the 14B, 22S, > 32S, and 32SII . (if my sources are correct) According to the same > 16 KB and 512 KB respectively ) and with a one line alphanumeric > display controller instead of a 7 segment one. Are you sure that this is correct? The Lewis doc say in chapter 6: The chip has a 5th configuration register that is unused in the LEWIS chip. The Bert doc says nothing about the Saca chip. But you're absolutely right in the case that there's a chip missing between the Bert and Clarke powered machines. Christoph On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:22:50 +0200, Christoph Giesselink >Jonathan Busby schrieb im Newsbeitrag >> There's also the Saca (Sacajawea) chip which is used by the 14B, 22S, >> 32S, and 32SII . (if my sources are correct) According to the same >> 16 KB and 512 KB respectively ) and with a one line alphanumeric >> display controller instead of a 7 segment one. Are you sure that this is correct? The Lewis doc say in chapter 6: The chip has a 5th configuration register that is unused in the LEWIS chip. The Bert doc says nothing about the Saca chip. But you're absolutely right in the case that there's a chip missing between >the Bert and Clarke powered machines. Christoph > x.com Craig A. Finseth's HPDATABase and Marc Staps book Codenames of HP Handheld Calculators and PDAs: facts and speculations (in this particular book he states that this information was obtained from Dennis York, former manager of the Handheld Products Division in Corvallis, 1989) I'm sure there is a Sacajawae (1LE2) chip from the fact that there would be a missing Saturn chip otherwise and various trusted sources mention it. (including ones other than those mentioned) The statement the Saca is basically just a Bert may be incorrect if the Bert uses a different version of the processor core or is substantially different from the Lewis in other respects. (other than maybe it should read the Saca is basically just a Lewis but with a 1 line alphanumeric display controller instead of a 2x16 character dot matrix display one . ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. On Sun, 29 Sep 2002 19:44:44 -0500, Jonathan Busby >The statement the Saca is basically just a Bert may be incorrect if >the Bert uses a different version of the processor core or is >substantially different from the Lewis in other respects. (other than >maybe it should read the Saca is basically just a Lewis but with a 1 >line alphanumeric display controller instead of a 2x16 character dot >matrix display one . Argg! That should be 2x22 character . ;) ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:37:37 -0500, Jonathan Busby >There's also the Saca (Sacajawea) chip which is used by the 14B, 22S, >32S, and 32SII . (if my sources are correct) According to the same >16 KB and 512 KB respectively ) and with a one line alphanumeric >display controller instead of a 7 segment one. Well, I tried to cancel that message but no luck. My fingers are KB of ROM. ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. http://www.hpmuseum.org/saturn.htm http://www.hpmuseum.org/techcpu.htm ((o)) . I was looking through my HP museum CDROMS and ended up looking at some of the HP71 documentation. Has somebody written an HP71 emulator? One patterned along the same lines of Warren Furlow's Virtual-41 would be quite slick. I like the way V41 uses a picture of a real 41 as the user interface. Very nice job. -- schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I was looking through my HP museum CDROMS and ended up looking at some of > the HP71 documentation. Has somebody written an HP71 emulator? > J-F Garnier published a HP71B emulator at http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/2000/. But the emulator is _without_ the ROM images (copyright reasons). So please don't ask the author or any other for them. It's your job to get them from your own HP71. Christoph It was written: > J-F Garnier published an HP71B emulator at > http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/2000/ > But the emulator is _without_ the ROM images (copyright reasons). > So please don't ask the author or any other for them. > It's your job to get them from your own HP71. Isn't that curious, given what is said at http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp71.htm An Open Architecture with Documentation: The HP-71B was designed as an open machine. HP made available detailed documentation which described OS information (including full source code), file formats, how to create BASIC extensions, etc. Considering that ROMs are now freely published (made somewhat necessary for flash updates), and considering also the success which JYA had in convincing HP to allow publication of old roms (even for the HP48GX, which you can now download with permission from your favorite HP calc site), it might be possible to go further and get others freed from bondage -- if, that is, you can find anyone left at HP who has the faintest idea of what has transpired before. JYA, is that person who issued the permission letter for HP48 still around, or anyone else who can make any further decisions, or who can figure out that it would be mighty difficult for this monumental step to impact sales (or is another Basic calc in the works -- the HP89/92, perhaps?) Oh, well. ((o)) . I enter a stress tensor equation (3X3) 76.6 12.4 0 12.4 0 0 0 0 0 I type EGV to get the eigen vector and eigen values. It returns the correct eigen values of: 78.6 -1.96 0 My problem is that the eigen vectors it returns are wrong. The x,y,z component satisfy the following: x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 1 (based on vector math and stress analysis) since it's suppose to return a unit vector describing the principal axis. There seems to be a roundoff error in numbers close to 1. Here is what the calc returns (I'm in STD and not FIX of course): 1.00 -0.158 0 0.158 1.00 0 0.00 0.00 1 Here is what I find by hand: 0.987 0.128 0 0.159 -0.992 0 0.00 0.00 1 What's the problem?? Is this a purist mathematics issue or is the calc wrong?? Thanx all Steph > I enter a stress tensor equation (3X3) 76.6 12.4 0 > 12.4 0 0 > 0 0 0 I type EGV to get the eigen vector and eigen values. It returns the correct > eigen values of: 78.6 > -1.96 > 0 My problem is that the eigen vectors it returns are wrong. The x,y,z > component satisfy the following: x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 1 (based on vector math > and stress analysis) since it's suppose to return a unit vector describing > the principal axis. There seems to be a roundoff error in numbers close to > 1. Here is what the calc returns (I'm in STD and not FIX of course): 1.00 -0.158 0 > 0.158 1.00 0 > 0.00 0.00 1 Here is what I find by hand: 0.987 0.128 0 > 0.159 -0.992 0 > 0.00 0.00 1 What's the problem?? Is this a purist mathematics issue or is the calc > wrong?? Thanx all Steph EGV return eigenvectors scaled so that the largest component equals 1. Eigenvectors are determined relative to a constant; if e is an eigenvector, then so is k*e, with k real. The 'normalized' eigenvectors (norm = 1) are: 0.98777 -0.15592 0.00000 0.15592 0.98777 0.00000 0.00000 0.00000 1.00000 so your second eigenvector is wrong, or a typo. Werner Huysegoms , > I enter a stress tensor equation (3X3) 76.6 12.4 0 > 12.4 0 0 > 0 0 0 I type EGV to get the eigen vector and eigen values. It returns the correct > eigen values of: 78.6 > -1.96 > 0 My problem is that the eigen vectors it returns are wrong. The x,y,z > component satisfy the following: x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 1 (based on vector math > and stress analysis) since it's suppose to return a unit vector describing > the principal axis. There seems to be a roundoff error in numbers close to > 1. Here is what the calc returns (I'm in STD and not FIX of course): 1.00 -0.158 0 > 0.158 1.00 0 > 0.00 0.00 1 Here is what I find by hand: 0.987 0.128 0 > 0.159 -0.992 0 > 0.00 0.00 1 What's the problem?? Is this a purist mathematics issue or is the calc > wrong?? Thanx all Steph For simplicity in internal calculation, the HP49 returns eigenvectors with each having coordinate equal to 1. In general, these eigenvectors will not be normalized (will not have length 1) but they will be pointing in the correct directions. If you want normalized eigenvectors, you must divide each by its length. When you do that in this case, you will find that the result matches what you found by hand. If this normalizing of the columns of a matrix is something you will be wanting to do frequently, you should write a program to do it. If you are going to need this done I have some problems with the following Matrix: - - | 0 1 -1 | | -2 3 -1 | | -1 1 1 | - - When trying ro calculate the Eigenvectors (EGV-Command) of this Matrix with my HP49G (V1.19-6) I get the Message: EGV Error - Matrix not diagonizable But the same task is no problem for my HP48 (Metakernel, Erable and Alg48 installed). Has anyone an idea why this happens to be an error on the HP49G? Any help wold be appreciated! Bernd <3d934e75$0$30462$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>, I have some problems with the following Matrix: > - - > | 0 1 -1 | > | -2 3 -1 | > | -1 1 1 | > - - When trying ro calculate the Eigenvectors (EGV-Command) of this Matrix with > my HP49G (V1.19-6) I get the Message: EGV Error - Matrix not diagonizable But the same task is no problem for my HP48 > (Metakernel, Erable and Alg48 installed). Has anyone an idea why this happens to be an error on the HP49G? > Any help wold be appreciated! > Bernd > If you are in approximate mode when you enter the matrix and use the EGV command, everything works fine. But doing it all in exact mode, I received the same error message you received. If you need exactness, try doing it approximately and then using the XQ or ->Q command. Sometimes this gives correct exact results. If you are in approximate mode when you enter the matrix and use the > EGV command, everything works fine. > No, it does not work fine. It just looks like. As I said, you will get two vectors for the eigenspace 1 which are colinear, and that's bad. The reason is that the matrix is *not* diagonalizable. This is BTW another reason to have symbolic diagonalization. So the HP 49G CAS is even better than Mable in this particular case?! If you are in approximate mode when you enter the matrix and use the >EGV command, everything works fine. No, it does not work fine. It just looks like. > As I said, you will get two vectors > for the eigenspace 1 which are colinear, and that's bad. > The reason is that the matrix is *not* diagonalizable. This > is BTW another reason to have symbolic diagonalization. If you need exactness, try doing it approximately and then using the > XQ or ->Q command. Sometimes this gives correct exact results. I can't think of a case where you need (or would want!) exact eigenvectors? As Bernard Parisse says, the input matrix isn't diagonizable, so another approach has to be chosen. > I can't think of a case where you need (or would want!) exact eigenvectors? As Bernard Parisse says, the input matrix isn't diagonizable, so another > approach has to be chosen. According to Bernard exact eigenvectors are very usefull and exact LU matrix decomposition is not. He did not elaborated why. Jack > I can't think of a case where you need (or would want!) exact eigenvectors? As Bernard Parisse says, the input matrix isn't diagonizable, so another >approach has to be chosen. According to Bernard exact eigenvectors are very usefull and > exact LU matrix decomposition is not. He did not elaborated why. I'll offer an example for exact eigenvectors: to find a closed form for raising a matrix to the nth power. If you can write M = Q^-1 L Q, then M^n = Q^-1 L^n Q, which can give you an explicit formula in terms of n. Scott -- Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu This isn't flying. This is falling, with style. -- Buzz Lightyear I have some problems with the following Matrix: > - - > | 0 1 -1 | > | -2 3 -1 | > | -1 1 1 | > - - When trying ro calculate the Eigenvectors (EGV-Command) of this Matrix with > my HP49G (V1.19-6) I get the Message: EGV Error - Matrix not diagonizable But the same task is no problem for my HP48 > (Metakernel, Erable and Alg48 installed). Has anyone an idea why this happens to be an error on the HP49G? > Any help wold be appreciated! Your matrix is indeed not diagonalizable. The eigenvalue 1 has multiplicity 2 but eigenspace of dim 1. Try JORDAN to get a characteristic vector corresponding to 1. On the 48, whatever you install, EGV is the numeric EGV instruction which in this case can not return a completely meaningfull answer (you can get the same answer converting your matrix to numeric on the 49, the two first columns are the same up to numeric accuracy). parisse schrieb im Newsbeitrag I have some problems with the following Matrix: >- - >| 0 1 -1 | >| -2 3 -1 | >| -1 1 1 | >- - When trying ro calculate the Eigenvectors (EGV-Command) of this Matrix with >my HP49G (V1.19-6) I get the Message: EGV Error - Matrix not diagonizable But the same task is no problem for my HP48 >(Metakernel, Erable and Alg48 installed). Has anyone an idea why this happens to be an error on the HP49G? >Any help wold be appreciated! Your matrix is indeed not diagonalizable. The eigenvalue 1 > has multiplicity 2 but eigenspace of dim 1. Try JORDAN > to get a characteristic vector corresponding to 1. > On the 48, whatever you install, EGV is the numeric EGV instruction > which in this case can not return a completely meaningfull answer > (you can get the same answer converting your matrix to numeric on the > 49, the two first columns are the same up to numeric accuracy). > But I have another question concerning this topic! When I use Maple 6.0 to calculate the eigenvecs and values I get correct ( I mean not approximate) answers, the same that I get when I calculate by hand. Do you know which way the eigenvectors are calculated on the HP49G ? Why is there a difference between the JORDAN Command and the EGV-Command ? Bernd i don't think you will find that. you could find some info here (if you are lucky): > http://www.idc.com/ > they have put out some PDA numbers, but that is not what you asked: http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jhtml?containerId=pr2002_09_06_153434 http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0209/11.pda.php >I hope I am in the correct user group. I apologize in advance if I am >not. Looking for any information on the scientific calculator market >as a whole, specifically current sales growth for 2002 and projected here are some PDA recent market predictions: http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/f_headline.cgi?bw.090902/222520318 they are available on Ebay Bob I just got my hp49G and I'm wondering if there is a quick way to convert the HP49G-to-HP49G cable into a HP49G-to-PC one without cutting the cable (like methode that involved cutting > I just got my hp49G and I'm wondering if there is a quick way to convert the > HP49G-to-HP49G cable into a HP49G-to-PC one without cutting the cable (like > methode that involved cutting > Hay shen, I got some telephone wire (4 wires inside, single strand per color) and added a 9 pin serial to one side. Not all of the pins will be while the serial has 9. Then I just stuck the wire into the proper holes in one of the sides of 49G.9a49G cable. Look at hpcalc.org for pin assignments. Then just rap with some electrical tape. It's that easy. Hay, and make sure you double check the pins. It's better to check twice or even three times than burning out your 49. Don't really know if it will burn, but I would hate to find out. Jorge Gonzalez >I just got my hp49G and I'm wondering if there is a quick way to convert the >HP49G-to-HP49G cable into a HP49G-to-PC one without cutting the cable (like >methode that involved cutting Hay shen, > I got some telephone wire (4 wires inside, single strand per color) > and added a 9 pin serial to one side. Not all of the pins will be > while the serial has 9. Then I just stuck the wire into the proper > holes in one of the sides of 49G-49G cable. Look at hpcalc.org for > pin assignments. Then just rap with some electrical tape. It's that easy. Hay, and make sure you double check the pins. It's better to check > twice or even three times than burning out your 49. Don't really know > if it will burn, but I would hate to find out. I'm finally going to split my 49g-49g cable into to and plug an db9 connector to each side (male and female). I'm just wondering since the PC port is 12 volts and my 49g is 3 volts (2 AAA 1.5v + 1 AAA bats) isn't this asking for trouble ? I've seen a tutorial on hpcalc concerning this method but I have my doubts hmmm... > the PC port is 12 volts and my 49g is 3 volts [?] > isn't this asking for trouble ? If you mean for standard RS-232 serial port data transfer, the calc has its own internal power supply, generating the voltages it really needs, and the PC's serial data lines (RX,TX), as well as the calc's, are all within standard RS-232 specs, so these calcs have been successfully interfacing with PCs (and Macs) for data transfer for something like 15 years thus far. Except for the first year's production run of HP49s, which got the circuit wrong, and might even short themselves out if anything conductive bumps into the calc's connector pins. -[]- . If you mean for standard RS-232 serial port data transfer, > the calc has its own internal power supply, generating the > voltages it really needs, and the PC's serial data lines (RX,TX), > as well as the calc's, are all within standard RS-232 specs, > so these calcs have been successfully interfacing with PCs > (and Macs) for data transfer for something like 15 years thus far. Except for the first year's production run of HP49s, > which got the circuit wrong, and might even short themselves out > if anything conductive bumps into the calc's connector pins. > those buggy first year releases? just give it a try (I don't know any other way to tell if the calc is buggy)... I have a 49 with a quite low serial no (ID93100023) and I haven't got any problems with transferring programs or updating the ROM. Martin > >>If you mean for standard RS-232 serial port data transfer, >>the calc has its own internal power supply, generating the >>voltages it really needs, and the PC's serial data lines (RX,TX), >>as well as the calc's, are all within standard RS-232 specs, >>so these calcs have been successfully interfacing with PCs >>(and Macs) for data transfer for something like 15 years thus far. >>Except for the first year's production run of HP49s, >>which got the circuit wrong, and might even short themselves out >>if anything conductive bumps into the calc's connector pins. those buggy first year releases? On my 48GX's Symbolic key is an item Isolate a variable. Does anyone know where this form went on the 49? I know you can achieve the same thing by using the ISOLV function, but I don't know why the form is Steve Try << 93 MENU >> you can assign this to a USR key. Many of the 48 menus still exist in the 49... you just have a to dig a little bit for them. Greg S. > On my 48GX's Symbolic key is an item Isolate a variable. Does anyone > know where this form went on the 49? I know you can achieve the same > thing by using the ISOLV function, but I don't know why the form is Steve Well, 93 MENU looks like it shows the 48's Symbolic top level menu in soft keys (rather odd since I have flag 117 set to Choose boxes). Then if a soft key is selected (e.g. ISOL) rather than bring up the old form for Isolate a variable, ISOL is executed against the stack. I Steve > Try << 93 MENU you can assign this to a USR key. Many of the 48 menus still exist in the > 49... you just have a to dig a little bit for them. Greg S. > Well, 93 MENU... Not at all the same, as you said; on the *48G*, right-shift SYMBOLIC (or #B4113h LIBEVAL) brought up a choose box: Integrate... #B4114h LIBEVAL Differentiate... #B4122h LIBEVAL Taylor poly... #B412Bh LIBEVAL Isolate var... #B412Dh LIBEVAL Solve quad... #B4130h LIBEVAL Manip expr... #B4131h LIBEVAL Each of the above was also an inform-based application, not merely a command menu. Hence, users of the 49 are not nearly as well informed ((o)) . > Well, 93 MENU... Not at all the same, as you said; on the *48G*, right-shift SYMBOLIC (or #B4113h LIBEVAL) brought up a choose box: Integrate... #B4114h LIBEVAL Differentiate... #B4122h LIBEVAL Taylor poly... #B412Bh LIBEVAL Isolate var... #B412Dh LIBEVAL Solve quad... #B4130h LIBEVAL Manip expr... #B4131h LIBEVAL Each of the above was also an inform-based application, not merely a command menu. Hence, users of the 49 are not nearly as well informed ((o)) . If flag -117 is clear, it comes up as choose box item number 2 when you press LS 7. Is that what you are looking for? Dennis No. What I'm looking for is the form similar to RS 7, Solve equation... on the 49g, only for Isolate a variable. It's basically a form for entering an expression, the variable you want to solve for, the result (symbolic or numeric), and a checkbox to determine if you want to get the principal solution only. A work around is to use the stack and the ISOL function. BTW, in my original post I meant to say the ISOL function. Steve > If flag -117 is clear, it comes up as choose box item number 2 when you press > LS 7. Is that what you are looking for? Dennis Today I am using algebra and pre-calculus on the HP 48 G/G X. by Dan Coffin I noticed it has a niceset of HP programs in the back of book. Are these available in electronic form anywhere so I might download them from my computer into my calculator? I have other similar books. I'm just wondering if there is repository somewhere of this kind of material ?It would be helpful mmstat > Dan Coffin's Algebra and pre-calculus book on the HP48G/GX > has a nice set of HP programs in the back of the book. > Are these available in electronic form anywhere, > so I might download them from my computer to my calculator? If not, an electronic form can be created on your own computer by typing them using Notepad, etc., which may be easier than typing them directly on the calculator. Although you can then transfer these files to the calculator using the file transfer software, I find it nicer to use the emulator instead on the PC, because then you can try everything first on the emulated calculator, then download from the emulated calculator to the real calculator. Text files can be dragged and dropped right onto an emulator window on the PC (or copied and pasted from posts, etc.), where they will then appear on the stack. Likewise, text strings can be copied from the emu48 stack and pasted into other text files on the PC. Characters not found on a normal PC keyboard can be represented using backslash equivalents, e.g. << my program >> Translation of the backslash equivalents to what the calculator actually understands can be performed using simple programs which you can keep right in your [emulated] calculator (or does emu48 have internal translation nowadays?) Actually, I keep my entire calculator in the emulator, and just download memory backups to the calc now and then (if I can still find my calculator any more :) For the next update of Emu48/49, perhaps Christoph might just add a Hot Sync button to make it complete :) Backslash (digraph) equivalents: Copies of backslash translators which I use in my emulator: To compile text from PC, dropped or pasted onto emulator stack: *HP49* only! << ->STR 3. TRANSIO #2F34Dh SYSEVAL + STR-> 'IN' STO *HP48* only! << ->STR 3. TRANSIO #3016Bh SYSEVAL + STR-> 'IN' STO To generate PC text (for copy/paste) from any stack object: *HP49* only! << STD 64. STWS ->STR 3. TRANSIO #2F34Fh SYSEVAL >> 'OUT' STO *HP48* only! << STD 64. STWS ->STR 3. TRANSIO #2FEC9h SYSEVAL >> 'OUT' STO Then I just type IN to import from my PC, and I type OUT to export back to my PC! If some text file happens to begin with %%HP: T(3)... etc. (this is created by HP Kermit when it sends files from the calc), then here is an additional program which first removes the Kermit header and then invokes the above 'IN' program: *HP48/49* << ->STR DUP %%HP: POS { DUP ; POS 1. + OVER SIZE SUB } IFT IN >> 'KIN' STO If you want to be sure of strictly correct ascii program transfers, be sure to set an HP49 to Approximate mode before importing a file from an HP48, and to Exact mode before importing a file from an HP49. For manually typed files to be imported into an HP49, either include decimal points with every real number, to distinguish real-valued integers from exact integers (e.g. 123. vs 123), or else set the HP49 to Approximate mode to assume that all integers are real-valued. IMPORTANT: Select only the above program versions corresponding to your actual calculator model, type the addresses very carefully (in HEX mode), and always backup memory before trying any syseval programs! (because any mistake could wipe out calc memory!) Still looking for Emu48/49? As of version 1.31: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emulators http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emulators/emu48-1.30.zip http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/emu48.htm http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/Emu48-1_30.zip http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/e48bp31.zip [1.31 update] http://www.epita.fr/~avenar_j/hp/49.html [49G ROM] http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emulators/gxrom-r.zip HP file transfer for Windows: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/link http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/link/hpcomm-30r4.zip http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/link/hpcomm-s.zip [with Xmodem] http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/link/kermit3.zip [MS-DOS Kermit] Backslash (digraph) equivalents: Num Sym Description --- --- ----------- 128 <) angle symbol 131 v/ square root 132 .S integral symbol 133 GS Greek Sigma (GSLIST) 135 pi pi 136 .d derivative symbol 137 <= less or equal 138 >= greater or equal 139 =/ unequal 141 -> right arrow (->LIST, -> a b c) 142 <- left arrow (<-local) 143 |v down arrow (|vMATCH) 144 |^ up arrow (|^MATCH) 156 PI capital pi (PILIST) 159 oo infinity 171 << program delimiters 187 >> 092 backslash Notice how most of these conveniently look like the characters which they represent. Lower-case Greek letters: Ga (alpha), Gb (beta), etc. Upper-case Greek letters: GD (Delta), GW (Omega), GS (Sigma) For any other character, you can use nnn (with the 3-digit decimal character number, which you can obtain from the CHARS application in the calc). [r->] [OFF] . Actually, I keep my entire calculator in the emulator... I am not the only fool... > For the next update of Emu48/49, perhaps Christoph might just add > a Hot Sync button to make it complete :) Yes, please. In conjunction with Handheld and Portable Computer Club's Twentieth Anniversary HP conference held in London on 21-22 September, a CD containing scanned issues of the first twenty years (1982-2001) of their publication, Datafile, were distributed to all attendees. For anyone else interested in obtaining this disk, check out http://www.magpage.com/~jakes/ppccdrom.htm on the web. Jake Schwartz This is a truly great resource. I have already enjoyed going through just some of this material. If you enjoy HP calculators, you should get a copy of this. THank you Jake for taking the time to provide this information. You're a champ. Gene In conjunction with Handheld and Portable Computer Club's Twentieth > Anniversary HP conference held in London on 21-22 September, a CD > containing scanned issues of the first twenty years (1982-2001) of their > publication, Datafile, were distributed to all attendees. For anyone > else interested in obtaining this disk, check out > http://www.magpage.com/~jakes/ppccdrom.htm on the web. Jake Schwartz > 2) Can anybody explain me the instruction GOSUB _PC=C. There isn't a subrutine in the code whit that name. I don't have some entry points in my extable like memerrS, AccessVars and AccessModuleInfo. Where can I find a more complete extable (www.hpcalc.org???). 3) Where can I find information about access methods. 4) Forgive about my English. Alejandro Henao Loaiza. [ahl] > Here is the code for the PVARS function. It returns the amount of free > memory and the list of variable. You should be able to modify it to return > only the free space quite easely. > ( % --> {..} ) > :: > CK1&Dispatch > real :: COERCE DUP #2 #>case SETPORTNOTAV FLASHPTR XEQBVARS UNCOERCE %8 > %* ; > ; > ********************************************************** > * This is the Vars command. > * the only difference with the RPL command is taht this one > * takes a SB instead of a real. > * This command is based on the AccessVars entry of the > * access methodes. > ********************************************************** > ASSEMBLEM > $(5) (*)+5 > SAVE GOSBVL GARBAGECOL LOAD > D-5.A SKNC { *.ins GOVLNG =memerrS } % Get the whole memory > C=D.A C+C.A C+C.A C+D.A RSTK=C GOSBVL MAKE$N C=RSTK B=C.A > GOSBVL D1=DSKTOP GOSBVL POP# CD0EX D1=C % the the port SB > A-1.A GOC .P0 % Port0? > A-1.A GOC .P1 % Port1? > A=0.A R1=A.A % R1: free memory > / 16 > LC(5) ACCESSBank0 D=C.A C=0.S % for the 16 banks > do > { > C=D.A P==AccessVars C=D.A GOSUB _PC=C *.ins2 GOC .ins % list vars > P==AccessModuleInfo C=D.A GOSUB _PC=C % get module info > (to compute free mem ) > C=A.A ASR.W ASR.W ASR.W ASR.W ASR.W C+A.A CSR.A A=R1.A A+C.A R1=A.A % add > the module free meme to the total free mem > D+11.A C+1.S UPNC % Next access > routine > } > C=R1.A % Ca: Free memory > GOTO .End *.P0 > GOTO .End *.P1 > port 1 C+A.A *.End > R2=C.A % Save free mem in R2 > CD1EX D0=C GOSBVL Shrink$ % release some memory > A=R0.A D1=A D0=A % ready to transfor this > string in a list! > LC(5)DOLIST DAT1=C.A D1+5 % list prolog > D0+5 C=DAT0.A C-5.A D0+5 GOSBVL MOVEDOWN % shift all data by 5 > nibbles > LC(5)SEMI DAT1=C.A % write ending semi > A=R2.A A+1.A SKNC { GOSBVL ROOM CSR.A R2=C.A } % get the free mem > LOAD A=R0.A DAT1=A.A A=R2.A GOSBVL PUSH#ALOOP % and push the whole thing > on the stack > !RPL Alejandro Henao Loaiza schreef: > 2) Can anybody explain me the instruction GOSUB _PC=C. There isn't a > subrutine in the code whit that name. the access routine needs a return address and with a gosub you provide this a piece from the code C=D A GOSUB _PC=C C=A A there should be a subroutine in your program called _PC=C (in the Vars command it is not present but it is in the ROM) your _PC=C subroutine is very simple: *_PC=C PC=C if you want to know more you could take a look at example 9.2 from HP49 Assembly Language Examples http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=5007 > I don't have some entry points in my extable like memerrS, > AccessVars and AccessModuleInfo. These are aliasses for 1, 8 and 14 IIRC -- This message was written with 100% recycled electrons Pivo On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 10:48:56 +0200, Peter Geelhoed >> I don't have some entry points in my extable like memerrS, >> AccessVars and AccessModuleInfo. These are aliasses for 1, 8 and 14 IIRC Slight correction: I decompiled PVARS and compared it to Cyrille's source to check the above values. I think the correct ones are memerrS = #39E3 AccessVars = 14 AccessModuleInfo = 8 ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. I tried to solve the system of equations x+y=1 x/a - y/b = 0 but the matrice editor in the solve lin sys menu does not accept symbols (here: a and b), just values. I want to edit the matrices in *any* such editor (elements symbolic or numeric), put them on the stack or variables, and solve the system with a command. Is there any program which is able to handle such a thing? tia Nikodemus Sorry! I found the command REF. That made the thing! /Nikodemus > I tried to solve the system of equations > x+y=1 > x/a - y/b = 0 > but the matrice editor in the solve lin sys menu does not accept symbols > (here: a and b), just values. I want to edit the matrices in *any* such > editor (elements symbolic or numeric), put them on the stack or variables, > and solve the system with a command. Is there any program which is able to > handle such a thing? tia Nikodemus Unlike many (most?) of the people in this group, first HP calc I've got was HP49G. Yes, I've been impressed by its power and all, but I haven't got enough attitude to use it extensively. Why? Because of it's unclear documentation, and lack of ... like, feeling. Well, you know what I mean :) Yestureday I've got my 48GX. And I truly _loved_ it from the first sight. People were right -- it's keys are smooth and the big ENTER is just in the place where it should be. Documentation is really good, though the print quality is less than that of 49G's :) Another disappointment was that 49G's cable doesn't fit 48 one -- I have to make an international order to get the cable now, along with Anyway, I must say that I will use 48GX -- it's a great calc! And if it won't get the needed job done -- I'll take a 49G, but only after 48 :) -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. There should be an adaptor to make the 49 cable fit the 48. (A small black plastic block.) Mine got one. Perhaps they are saving money. ed Unlike many (most?) of the people in this group, first HP calc > I've got was HP49G. Yes, I've been impressed by its power and all, > but I haven't got enough attitude to use it extensively. Why? > Because of it's unclear documentation, and lack of ... like, feeling. > Well, you know what I mean :) > Yestureday I've got my 48GX. And I truly _loved_ it from the first > sight. People were right -- it's keys are smooth and the big ENTER > is just in the place where it should be. > Documentation is really good, though the print quality is less than > that of 49G's :) > Another disappointment was that 49G's cable doesn't fit 48 one -- > I have to make an international order to get the cable now, along with Anyway, I must say that I will use 48GX -- it's a great calc! > And if it won't get the needed job done -- I'll take a 49G, but only > after 48 :) -- > Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. > There should be an adaptor to make the 49 cable fit the 48. (A small black > plastic block.) > Mine got one. Perhaps they are saving money. Hm. No, it wasn't there :( -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. >There should be an adaptor to make the 49 cable fit the 48. (A small black >plastic block.) >Mine got one. Perhaps they are saving money. Hm. No, it wasn't there :( An adapter, 10-pin male to fit the calc-to-calc cable to 4-pin female to fit any 48-series calculator, should've been in the package that your 49G came in. This adapter also fits the 49G 10-pin to DB9 serial cable, and it works fine for any 48-series calculator. -- >Hm. No, it wasn't there :( An adapter, 10-pin male to fit the calc-to-calc cable to 4-pin female to > fit any 48-series calculator, should've been in the package that your > 49G came in. This adapter also fits the 49G 10-pin to DB9 serial cable, > and it works fine for any 48-series calculator. Ah! Now I've found it. Silly me has been looking for it in 48 package :) for 49G cable should be in 49G box :) -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. Bad luck Wartan. Must cost them about 50c but you will have to pay a few dollars and lot of time to get one. Standards are sliding at HP. >There should be an adaptor to make the 49 cable fit the 48. (A small black >plastic block.) >Mine got one. Perhaps they are saving money. Hm. No, it wasn't there :( -- > Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. Buy the cards and if you install MK and Erable and Alg48 you'll get a very good almost 49 hi, i'm looking for two second hand books by Gilberto Urroz: CALCULATOR; - HP 48 G/G+/GX Applications in HYDRAULICS. Euro area is preferred. TIA Acrux, Italy I'd say that you might have damaged battery contacts inside the calculator. You say that you scrapped the contacts. In my experience that will only aggravate the problem as the contacts are very delicate. If what I suspect is indeed the problem they aren't too hard to repair, but it takes a good temperature-controlled soldering iron and a steady hand (and, in my case, a very good magnifier). I can usually repair them, but the cost to ship to the colonies and back might be prohibitive. Help (please) On Sunday my HP41CX stopped working - the display no longer comes on when I > press the ON key. I have tested the batteries and battery holder from the > non-working calculator in my other, working 41CX, so I know that they are > OK. The things I have tried since Sunday, to no avail, are: 1. Installed new batteries > 2. Checked voltage across batteries when in the battery holder to make > sure > 3. Gently scraped the contacts inside the battery compartment - there was > some oxidisation on a couple of the contacts > 4. Swapped battery holders with the working HP41CX The calculator was fine until I removed the battery pack on Sunday after I > got a low battery level warning BAT on the (now non-working) HP-41CX. > Since then nothing I have done will make the calculator turn on. Is there anything else that should be part of a routine check ? > Mark. -- Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 > I'd say that you might have damaged battery contacts inside the > calculator. You say that you scrapped the contacts. In my experience > that will only aggravate the problem as the contacts are very delicate. If what I suspect is indeed the problem they aren't too hard to repair, > but it takes a good temperature-controlled soldering iron and a steady > hand (and, in my case, a very good magnifier). You could use conductive silver ink to repair the contacts if they're not too far gone. First make sure the contacts are as clean as possible,but don't use anything abrasive to clean them. Just alcohol, or maybe a chemical contact cleaner but be careful because I don't know if that will react with the plastic film. Once the contacts are clean, mix the silver ink really well, the more you mix it the better, and apply it sparingly on just the parts that really need it. Allow a good long time for it to dry, I would say overnight, then put the batteries in and see what you have. Good luck! Steve > I can usually repair them, but the cost to ship to the colonies and back > might be prohibitive. > Help (please) >On Sunday my HP41CX stopped working - the display no longer comes on when I >press the ON key. I have tested the batteries and battery holder from the >non-working calculator in my other, working 41CX, so I know that they are >OK. The things I have tried since Sunday, to no avail, are: >1. Installed new batteries >2. Checked voltage across batteries when in the battery holder to make >sure >3. Gently scraped the contacts inside the battery compartment - there was >some oxidisation on a couple of the contacts >4. Swapped battery holders with the working HP41CX >The calculator was fine until I removed the battery pack on Sunday after I >got a low battery level warning BAT on the (now non-working) HP-41CX. >Since then nothing I have done will make the calculator turn on. >Is there anything else that should be part of a routine check ? >Mark. This worked for me: take out batteries for atleast 24 hours and short the - + on the calculator to drain any charge. be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net On many HP-41s, a common failure was the pressure contact between the main circuit board and the keyboard (and the batteries and expansion ports). If you squeeze the front and back together just above the batteries and it works, that's the likely source. Be aware that the screws that hold this together (and the two internal nuts) destructively thread the plastic when used. So removing them and just reapplying them can quickly strip *all* the plastic available to hold them. Then your '41 has no way to be held together (!!). HP's service department used to stock longer screws for just that reason - they could reach undamaged plastic and do the job. I sent my batch to the Voyager World Flight team for that reason in '85. Sorry I don't have any more. If you take care to assure that the fasteners are reusing their existing threading, you can reassemble the '41 indefinitely. If not, two times is probably the limit. Best to you and your fine machine!! Jim Horn (still use my HP-41C w/Time, Adv. Funct. & PPC ROMs freqently) To regain the possibility to open the 41 at will I suggest the following procedure: find the smallest (in diameter) possible screw & counterpart - English word unknown - this is a sleeve with internals matching the screws and outside is either slick - then you need superglue - or screw-like, in which case it should directly replace the original 41 screw holding the case together. Check the length before buying and notice that the combination should be as thin or thinner than the original screw alone. Experiment at your own risk, but if you already have a 41 which can't hold together what do you have to loose? I sincerely hope that someone else, more HW oriented comments my advice, before anybody ruins they 41. Veli-Pekka - a HW genius > On many HP-41s, a common failure was the pressure contact between the main > circuit board and the keyboard (and the batteries and expansion ports). > If you squeeze the front and back together just above the batteries and it > works, that's the likely source. Be aware that the screws that hold this together (and the two internal > nuts) destructively thread the plastic when used. So removing them and > just reapplying them can quickly strip *all* the plastic available to hold > them. Then your '41 has no way to be held together (!!). HP's service department used to stock longer screws for just that reason - > they could reach undamaged plastic and do the job. I sent my batch to the > Voyager World Flight team for that reason in '85. Sorry I don't have any > more. If you take care to assure that the fasteners are reusing their existing > threading, you can reassemble the '41 indefinitely. If not, two times is > probably the limit. Best to you and your fine machine!! Jim Horn (still use my HP-41C w/Time, Adv. Funct. & PPC ROMs freqently) > To regain the possibility to open the 41 at will > I suggest the following procedure: > find the smallest (in diameter) possible screw & > counterpart - English word unknown - this is a sleeve > with internals matching the screws and outside is > either slick - then you need superglue - or screw-like, > in which case it should directly replace the original > 41 screw holding the case together. > Check the length before buying and notice that > the combination should be as thin or thinner than the > original screw alone. > Experiment at your own risk, but if you already have > a 41 which can't hold together what do you have to loose? I sincerely hope that someone else, more HW oriented > comments my advice, before anybody ruins they 41. Veli-Pekka - a HW genius That would work but it may be hard to find. How about just 'back-filling' the plastic post with an epoxy glue and either drilling a hole with smaller diameter than the screw or using a self-tapping screw that will make its own hole? It's probably better to pre-drill a little bit so you don't crack the post but I would use a drill press to make sure it was drilled straight. -Steve - haven't done it myself... > On many HP-41s, a common failure was the pressure contact between the main >circuit board and the keyboard (and the batteries and expansion ports). >If you squeeze the front and back together just above the batteries and it >works, that's the likely source. Be aware that the screws that hold this together (and the two internal >nuts) destructively thread the plastic when used. So removing them and >just reapplying them can quickly strip *all* the plastic available to hold >them. Then your '41 has no way to be held together (!!). HP's service department used to stock longer screws for just that reason - >they could reach undamaged plastic and do the job. I sent my batch to the >Voyager World Flight team for that reason in '85. Sorry I don't have any >more. If you take care to assure that the fasteners are reusing their existing >threading, you can reassemble the '41 indefinitely. If not, two times is >probably the limit. Best to you and your fine machine!! Jim Horn (still use my HP-41C w/Time, Adv. Funct. & PPC ROMs freqently) > Nuevo explorador de archivos para la hp48 Un gran librer.92a para la hp48. Me gustar.92a que alg.9cn d.92a FILERhp49 sea similar a FILERhp48 Tienes alguna pregunta? Alguna sugerencia para el programa? Encontraste un Bug que se me escap.97? Raoolio@yahoo.com Ra.9cl del Cid L.97pez No tienes una hp48real descarga emu48 con mejores im.87genes para la emulaci.97n en: www.geocities.com/jaimezacalcs/hp/pc/skinhp3-4x.htm www.geocities.com/hp4x www.geocities.com/jaimezacalcs > Nuevo explorador de archivos para la hp48 Un gran librer.92a para la hp48. Me gustar.92a que alg.9cn d.92a FILERhp49 sea > similar a FILERhp48 Tienes alguna pregunta? > Alguna sugerencia para el programa? > Encontraste un Bug que se me escap.97? > Raoolio@yahoo.com > Ra.9cl del Cid L.97pez > Que? Translated of Spanish to English with Power translator v7.0 Pardon for incorrect syntax New browser of files for the hp48 in: www.geocities.com/jaimezacalcs/hp/filerhp48.zip A great library for the hp48. I would like that some day FILERhp49 is similar to FILERhp48 Jaime Fernando Meza Do you have some question? Some suggestion for the program? Did a Bug that I was escaped find? Raoolio@yahoo.com Ra.9cl del Cid L.97pez You don't have a hp48real it discharges emu48 with better images for the emulation in: www.geocities.com/jaimezacalcs/hp/pc/skinhp3-4x.htm www.geocities.com/hp4x www.geocities.com/jaimezacalcs How do I put new Music in to my calculator? My 15C is doing something strange. When I try to store into memory (for example- sto 4), I get an Error 3. I can only store when I use sto 1. Every other memory gives Error 3. Anyone know why. I can't find my manual. Chris > My 15C is doing something strange. When I try to store into memory (for > example- sto 4), I get an Error 3. I can only store when I use sto 1. > Every other memory gives Error 3. Anyone know why. I can't find my manual. > Error 3: Improper Register Number or Matrix element Storage register named is nonexistent or matrix element indicated is nonexistent. -- Ker Wildwood Systems Group Fredericton, New Brunswick CANADA Reply to: mker at nbnet dot nb dot ca Chris Briskorn escribi.97 en el > My 15C is doing something strange. When I try to store into memory (for > example- sto 4), I get an Error 3. I can only store when I use sto 1. > Every other memory gives Error 3. It seems you have not the R4 assigned as register for storing but program memory... RI, RO and R1 are ever for storing. How much do you want? I have a total of 9 registers for storing: RI and R0 to R8: this lets me use ststistic (R2-R7 needed) and use R8 for euro converting :-) For this configuration I did 8 DIM (i) If you need, for instance, use for storing till register no. 15, do the next: 15 DIM (i) (For sto/rcl in R12, do STO .2 or RCL .2) Chris Briskorn escribi.97 en el >My 15C is doing something strange. When I try to store into memory (for >example- sto 4), I get an Error 3. I can only store when I use sto 1. >Every other memory gives Error 3. It seems you have not the R4 assigned as register for storing but program > memory... > RI, RO and R1 are ever for storing. How much do you want? > I have a total of 9 registers for storing: RI and R0 to R8: this lets me use > ststistic (R2-R7 needed) and use R8 for euro converting :-) For this > configuration I did 8 DIM (i) > If you need, for instance, use for storing till register no. 15, do the > next: 15 DIM (i) > (For sto/rcl in R12, do STO .2 or RCL .2) I have a total of 9 registers for storing: RI and R0 to R8... ... so I have a total of 10 registers for storing. I have an HP 11C and the guidebook says for that error: Named storage register currently converted to program memory, or nonexistent storage register. HTH > My 15C is doing something strange. When I try to store into memory (for > example- sto 4), I get an Error 3. I can only store when I use sto 1. > Every other memory gives Error 3. Anyone know why. I can't find my manual. Chris What is the maximum memory HP 48GX can have? How would one go about 1. obtaining the memory cards/hardware necessary to upgrade? 2. obtaining information about how to upgrade? louis >What is the maximum memory HP 48GX can have? How would one go about 1. obtaining the memory cards/hardware necessary to upgrade? 2. obtaining information about how to upgrade? >louis of error in the GX addressing the last two banks of a 4 Mb card, the klotz cards permit bank substitution of the last 2 ports. Unfortunately, the extra logic comes at a price since the 4M card is more than twice the cost of a 2M card. I bought the 2M, and it is more than enough. To upgrade, buy one 128k card for port 1, and 1 ?M card for port 2. Plug them into the appropriate ports with the power off. Turn on the calc, and you are all set. PINIT seems not to be necessary as each card has been formatted when tested at the factory. Hope this helps. Bill Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) Am i misreading the price or is it only $70 for a 2 MB card!? -louis > Am i misreading the price or is it only $70 for a 2 MB card!? You're correct. I just ordered a 2 MB card from Klotz a couple of days ago, and the price, including shipping, was about $78. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock HP sells 1MB, max is 4MB, but some last ports have difficulties in access.Anyway 3,5MB is a lot, too. Remember that a port is only 128KB > What is the maximum memory HP 48GX can have? How would one go about 1. obtaining the memory cards/hardware necessary to upgrade? 2. obtaining information about how to upgrade? > louis > What is the maximum memory HP 48GX can have? How would one go about 1. obtaining the memory cards/hardware necessary to upgrade? 2. obtaining information about how to upgrade? > 1) http://uuhome.de/oklotz/index_e.html 2) http://uuhome.de/oklotz/hp2048ae.pdf I want to convert from rectangular to polar on the 49G. I have tried to do this using the vector notation on the calculator, but when I go to convert the vector (polar) back to its components it flips back to rectangular. I want to do this using a program, so there must be a function to do so. MC > I want to convert from rectangular to polar on the 49G. In the days of much older calculators, there were no complex number objects or vector objects; people had to enter two completely separate real numbers onto the stack and mentally imagine that these were related, which is what gave rise to the need to replace one pair of numbers with another pair from time to time, which was called converting R<->P; the calculator, meanwhile, never knew what was going on, so the user had to take all responsibility for invoking R<->P himself whenever required, and then still dealing separately with each component during other subsequent computations. The modern HP48/49 has internal complex number objects and vector objects; these single objects have only one internal form, which is never converted at all; instead, any conversion occurs automatically during input parsing and output displaying, so that the user need never explicitly convert anything himself. On input, the user enters an angle symbol <) just preceding each coordinate which is an angle, and the calculator immediately and automatically converts that input into its internal form, using the syntax to automatically understand the type of coordinates which were entered: [ x y ] or ( x y ) rectangular [ r <)theta ] or ( r <)theta ) polar [ x y z ] rectangular [ r <)theta z ] cylindrical [ r <)theta <)phi ] spherical For output (display), the user can choose RECT, CYLIN or SPHERE display modes, and the calculator then immediately and automatically converts every complex number or vector (2D and 3D) from its internal form back to the coordinates that the user wants to see (above). All angles, of course, are in the current angle display mode (DEG, RAD, or GRAD), which is one more thing to be set before entering input or interpreting output. Whatever we now want to do with this calculator, the above understandings should now make it clear how to do it. If we want to enter some values in rectangular form and see the same complex numbers or vectors displayed in polar form, we just perform CYLIN or SPHERE once to set the output display style, then start entering coordinates without any angle symbols; each time we press ENTER, we instantly see our input converted from rectangular input to polar output on the display, without having to invoke any explicit conversion functions. If we want to enter some values in polar form and see the same objects displayed in rectangular form, we just perform RECT once; as we enter each polar vector with an angle symbol and then press ENTER, we instantly see it re-displayed in rectangular form, again without having to invoke any explicit conversion functions. Summary: o Input: Enter objects with an angle symbol preceding each angle value; all conversion to internal form is automatic. o Output: Perform RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE to re-display output in desired forms; all conversion from internal form to display is automatic. o By entering in one format and displaying in another, all conversion is automatic. o Internal computations with complex numbers and vectors are always automatically correct, because there exists only one universal internal form for each object type; there is no internal conversion between forms. Other commands which operate on complex numbers: o RE gives x, IM gives y, C->R or OBJ-> give both x and y o ABS gives r, ARG gives theta [ABS also works with vectors] > when I go to convert the vector (polar) back to its components > it flips back to rectangular. Nothing flips back; vector objects exist internally only in rectangular component form, so commands such as OBJ-> and ARRY-> (or the Matrix Writer) will discover only rectangular components inside a vector. HOWEVER, there are three special commands (V->, ->V2 and ->V3) which actually convert between internal (rectangular) components and external (display form) coordinates, depending on the current coordinate display mode (RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE): V-> or a 2- or 3-component vector into the separate values that would be *displayed* in the current mode (RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE). By the way, this is why V-> is not a good idea as a shortcut for ARRY-> DROP, because sometimes it may produce converted, angular coordinates, instead of the desired original components. ->V2 and ->V3 These do the inverse of V-> In other words, in CYLIN/SPHERE modes, these assemble polar coordinates into a vector, just as if you had typed angle symbols in front of those components, thus converting external polar coordinates into internal rectangular components. You can have ->V2 produce either a vector or a complex number object, according to whether flag -19 is clear or set. More rantings, old P<->R revived on HP48/49 for diehards, RAD and POLAR toggles revived on HP49 for those who miss them, angle symbol on a more convenient key, etc. With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu . the two. The main problem is that when you do a obj-> command on top of a polar vector it will reduce back to the rectangular form. I want to be able to get the primaries in polar form on two levels of the stack. MC > I want to convert from rectangular to polar on the 49G. In the days of much older calculators, there were > no complex number objects or vector objects; people had to > enter two completely separate real numbers onto the stack and > mentally imagine that these were related, which is what gave rise > to the need to replace one pair of numbers with another pair > from time to time, which was called converting R<->P; > the calculator, meanwhile, never knew what was going on, > so the user had to take all responsibility for > invoking R<->P himself whenever required, > and then still dealing separately with each component > during other subsequent computations. The modern HP48/49 has internal complex number objects > and vector objects; these single objects have only one > internal form, which is never converted at all; > instead, any conversion occurs automatically > during input parsing and output displaying, > so that the user need never explicitly convert anything himself. On input, the user enters an angle symbol <) > just preceding each coordinate which is an angle, > and the calculator immediately and automatically > converts that input into its internal form, > using the syntax to automatically understand > the type of coordinates which were entered: [ x y ] or ( x y ) rectangular > [ r <)theta ] or ( r <)theta ) polar > [ x y z ] rectangular > [ r <)theta z ] cylindrical > [ r <)theta <)phi ] spherical For output (display), the user can choose RECT, CYLIN or SPHERE > display modes, and the calculator then immediately and automatically > converts every complex number or vector (2D and 3D) from its internal > form back to the coordinates that the user wants to see (above). All angles, of course, are in the current angle display mode > (DEG, RAD, or GRAD), which is one more thing to be set > before entering input or interpreting output. > Whatever we now want to do with this calculator, > the above understandings should now make it clear how to do it. If we want to enter some values in rectangular form and see > the same complex numbers or vectors displayed in polar form, we > just perform CYLIN or SPHERE once to set the output display style, > then start entering coordinates without any angle symbols; > each time we press ENTER, we instantly see our input converted > from rectangular input to polar output on the display, > without having to invoke any explicit conversion functions. If we want to enter some values in polar form and see the same > objects displayed in rectangular form, we just perform RECT once; > as we enter each polar vector with an angle symbol and then > press ENTER, we instantly see it re-displayed in rectangular form, > again without having to invoke any explicit conversion functions. > Summary: o Input: > Enter objects with an angle symbol preceding each angle value; > all conversion to internal form is automatic. o Output: > Perform RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE to re-display output in desired forms; > all conversion from internal form to display is automatic. o By entering in one format and displaying in another, > all conversion is automatic. o Internal computations with complex numbers and vectors > are always automatically correct, because there exists > only one universal internal form for each object type; > there is no internal conversion between forms. > Other commands which operate on complex numbers: o RE gives x, IM gives y, C->R or OBJ-> give both x and y > o ABS gives r, ARG gives theta [ABS also works with vectors] >when I go to convert the vector (polar) back to its components >it flips back to rectangular. Nothing flips back; vector objects exist internally only in > rectangular component form, so commands such as OBJ-> and ARRY- (or the Matrix Writer) will discover only rectangular components > inside a vector. HOWEVER, there are three special commands (V->, ->V2 and ->V3) > which actually convert between internal (rectangular) components > and external (display form) coordinates, depending on the current > coordinate display mode (RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE): V- > or a 2- or 3-component vector into the separate values > that would be *displayed* in the current mode (RECT/CYLIN/SPHERE). By the way, this is why V-> is not a good idea as a shortcut > for ARRY-> DROP, because sometimes it may produce converted, > angular coordinates, instead of the desired original components. > ->V2 and ->V3 These do the inverse of V- > In other words, in CYLIN/SPHERE modes, these assemble > polar coordinates into a vector, just as if you had > typed angle symbols in front of those components, > thus converting external polar coordinates > into internal rectangular components. You can have ->V2 produce either a vector or a complex number > object, according to whether flag -19 is clear or set. > More rantings, old P<->R revived on HP48/49 for diehards, > RAD and POLAR toggles revived on HP49 for those who miss them, > angle symbol on a more convenient key, etc. > With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu > . > The main problem is that when you do a obj-> command > to a polar vector it will reduce back to the rectangular form. Do V-> instead of OBJ-> There is no polar vector internally; there are only different ways of entering the data to create the vector, and different ways of displaying the vector on the stack, but the internal components, revealed by OBJ-> are always rectangular. If you are displaying in CYLIN/SPHERE mode, showing angle(s), then V-> will result in the separate *displayable* values, actually converting from the internal rectangular form, which is what you are looking for in this case. Likewise, ->V2 and ->V3 convert displayable separate inputs back to internal rectangular form. -[]- . You probably figured out by now: DUP RE SWAP IM does the trick for you! You know the math, you can program the functions yourself. It is also possible to use SysRPL and dig the old functions from the ROM (The HP 28 had these functions) BUT Currently the POLAR RECT is a display-only automatic conversion. [MODE] Coord will let you choose it or you can use RECT POLAR keywords also you can change the flags directly, if you wish. The internal representation is always rectangular. You can input in either rectangular or polar and the display will show it in your currently selected format. I hope this helped a little. Veli-Pekka > I want to convert from rectangular to polar on the 49G. I have tried to do > this using the vector notation on the calculator, but when I go to convert > the vector (polar) back to its components it flips back to rectangular. I > want to do this using a program, so there must be a function to do so. > MC I've found some situations in integrations when you get the same answer back as the original problem except the HP surrounds it by INT(fx(Xt), Xt, X). Why does the HP do this and what does it mean? I received the info on how to handle this in one specific problem but don't understand what it means or why it does it so I can generalize the information. Carmen > I've found some situations in integrations when you get the same answer back > as the original problem except the HP surrounds it by INT(fx(Xt), Xt, X). > Why does the HP do this and what does it mean? I received the info on how > to handle this in one specific problem but don't understand what it means or > why it does it so I can generalize the information. > Carmen > > The usual indefinite integral operation is to take a function f(x) and return a function (unique up to additive constant), say g(x), whose derivative is the original function. Thus the result must itself be a function of the original variable. But to specify the function to be integrated in the HP , one must specify a variable and a formula for the result bsed on that variable x -> f(x). The f(Xt) *and* Xt are needed to determine the integrand function, Xt -> f(Xt), and the X is needed as argument of the function resulting from the integration. For a given function f(X), 'INT(f(Xt),Xt,X)' represents a function of X but different from f(X). Note that expressions like 'INT(X^2,X,X)' giving 'X^3/3' and 'INT(X^2,X,2)' giving '8/3' evaluate as expected, but 'INT(X^2,2,2)' gives an error message, since there is no *variable* of integration. Expressions like 'INT(SIN(Xt),Xt,ARCCOS(1/2))' and 'INT(Xt^3,Xt,2)' now have perfectly legitimate meanings. Virgil that's what I don't understand. When I put in a function f of x Why does the 49 return f of Xt? It makes no sense to me. If I try integrating what it returns to me I get f of Xtt? I do know what indefinate integration it but I can't understand what the HP 49 is doing here. It behavior seems arcane in many circumstances. Carmen > I've found some situations in integrations when you get the same answer back >as the original problem except the HP surrounds it by INT(fx(Xt), Xt, X). >Why does the HP do this and what does it mean? I received the info on how >to handle this in one specific problem but don't understand what it means or >why it does it so I can generalize the information. >Carmen > > The usual indefinite integral operation is to take a function f(x) > and return a function (unique up to additive constant), say g(x), > whose derivative is the original function. Thus the result must > itself be a function of the original variable. But to specify the > function to be integrated in the HP , one must specify a variable > and a formula for the result bsed on that variable x -> f(x). The f(Xt) *and* Xt are needed to determine the integrand function, > Xt -> f(Xt), and the X is needed as argument of the function > resulting from the integration. For a given function f(X), 'INT(f(Xt),Xt,X)' represents a function > of X but different from f(X). > Note that expressions like 'INT(X^2,X,X)' giving 'X^3/3' and > 'INT(X^2,X,2)' giving '8/3' evaluate as expected, but > 'INT(X^2,2,2)' gives an error message, since there is no *variable* > of integration. Expressions like 'INT(SIN(Xt),Xt,ARCCOS(1/2))' and 'INT(Xt^3,Xt,2)' > now have perfectly legitimate meanings. > Virgil that's what I don't understand. When I put in a function f of x Why > does the 49 return f of Xt? Because it doesn't know how to intgrate the function you gave it. Bless you steen and virgil! I understand! That is the obvious but I wasn't sure and assuming has caused so many problems in the past I didn't want to. So I have to manipulate the equation in whatever many ways to find an expression it does know how to integrate! Carmen >Virgil that's what I don't understand. When I put in a function f of x > Why >does the 49 return f of Xt? Because it doesn't know how to intgrate the function you gave it. > Virgil that's what I don't understand. When I put in a function f of x Why > does the 49 return f of Xt? If you put 'F(X)' on the stack an use the INTVX command you will get 'INT(F(Xt),Xt,X)'. The 'Xt' is what is called a dummy variable, meaning that replacing it by any other variable not already in the expression does not change the meaning or value of the expression. Thus 'INT(F(Xt),Xt,X)' and 'INT(F(Y),Y,X)' and 'INT(F(q),q,X)' all mean the same thing. Good mathematical practice says that dummy variables should not be the same as actual variables. Since the X in 'INT(F(Xt),Xt,X)' is an actual variable, one should avoid 'INT(F(X),X,X), even though the HP49 can deal with it correctly. 'HP does this by appending a t to whatever actual variable is used when required to invent a dummy variable. I was looking around, checking out what's being sold these days, when I ran across this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383400767 It looks like a regular 11C but the gold key functions are completely different! The FURLONGS, TIME and LENGHTS functions are particularly fascinating. Was this a custom unit with built-in programs for handicapping horse races? (I know nothing about horse racing or betting.) Anyone know anything about this one??? - Michael -- Remove No Spam Please from return address. answered that he didn't know he had a strange 11C, and put it off the site this morning... RC message > I was looking around, checking out what's being sold these days, when I ran > across this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383400767 It looks like a regular 11C but the gold key functions are completely > different! The FURLONGS, TIME and LENGHTS functions are particularly > fascinating. Was this a custom unit with built-in programs for handicapping > horse races? (I know nothing about horse racing or betting.) Anyone know anything about this one??? - Michael > -- > Remove No Spam Please from return address. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383400767 Anyone know anything about this one??? > The seller has no idea (and no docs) about this no standard hp 11c... This looks like a bastardized 11C more than anything else. I wonder if the bidders even realize it's not a standard 11C. I certainly would not want it. > I was looking around, checking out what's being sold these days, when I ran > across this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383400767 It looks like a regular 11C but the gold key functions are completely > different! The FURLONGS, TIME and LENGHTS functions are particularly > fascinating. Was this a custom unit with built-in programs for handicapping > horse races? (I know nothing about horse racing or betting.) Anyone know anything about this one??? - Michael > -- > Remove No Spam Please from return address. It looks like a special purpose keyboard overlay glued above the original one. Maybe for a game program for 2 players. Raymond > I was looking around, checking out what's being sold these days, when I ran > across this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383400767 It looks like a regular 11C but the gold key functions are completely > different! The FURLONGS, TIME and LENGHTS functions are particularly > fascinating. Was this a custom unit with built-in programs for handicapping > horse races? (I know nothing about horse racing or betting.) Anyone know anything about this one??? - Michael > -- > Remove No Spam Please from return address. Given a simple equation like NEW=OLD*(1.+CHG/100.)^PD when I use ISOL to solve for CHG I get On the 48gx CHG=((NEW/OLD)^INV(PD)-1)*100 On the 49g CHG=100.*EXP(-Ln(OLD/NEW)/PD)-100. Both of these yield the same result, I'm just wondering why they use different approaches. Also, the 49g gives me the error ISOL Error: Non unary operator if I have Approx checked in the CAS Modes. If I uncheck it (turn approx. mode off) then execute ISOL, the 49g prompts me to turn Approx. mode on. If I choose YES, it works (returns the expression above). If I try it again (without unchecking Approx mode), it fails with the Non unary operator error. To get it to work again I have to turn off Approx mode, and let it prompt me to turn it on again. Very weird, eh? Am I doing something wrong, or is there a problem with ISOL on the 49g? Steve > Given a simple equation like > NEW=OLD*(1.+CHG/100.)^PD > when I use ISOL to solve for CHG ... And the same with SOLVE in place of ISOL, although I failed to find where these converge in ROM. Since SOLVE is a superset (in the CAS) of ISOL, I don't see why the original ISOL needed to be messed with at all. It can be said that the complete CAS adds much more overall capability, and that discarding some original symbolic functions might have been thought desirable to make room for it, but since the replaced functions turned out to be incompatible (sometimes even not working at all), it's too bad that it also trampled over certain nice things that were just fine and more useful as they were. -[]- . > Am I doing something wrong, or is there a problem with ISOL on the > 49g? The HP49G is not backward compatible with the HP48 series. Even though some commands accidently share names on the two calculators, their do not work alike. >Am I doing something wrong, or is there a problem with ISOL on the >49g? > The HP49G is not backward compatible with the HP48 series. Even though some > commands accidently share names on the two calculators, their do not work > alike. This also concerns a lot of SysRPL-commands. For instance, the basic commands XYGROBDISP and INNERCOMP. The latter doesn't crash or error anymore but yields the count ONE for *any* non-composite object (somtimes useful). The former distroys the display in suspended state or if directly executed, provided the inserted grob is too large. In the whole, even experts have problems in porting complex SysRPL-programs from or to a HP48 :-) - Wolfgang Just thought I'd let you know how I 'improved' my Urroz books. After I got them I've been using them a lot with the Calculator. Unfortunately they don't stay open so I had to hold them open with one hand. Working the calc with one hand and holding a book didn't really work so I finally stretched them open and the glue from the spine released and pages started falling out ;/ This wasn't good at all so I took them to Kinko's had the spine cut off and the books coil bound. They now lay perfectly flat without an extra hand and I can even fold them back on themselves perfectly! This was great and cost less than 10 bucks a volume! Really terrific, except for the first volume they cut a little too close, but they will be buying me a new one of those! So if you are having trouble juggling the Urroz books (or any book for that matter), this might work for you! Carmen I'm looking for HP-10C and HP-15C owner's manual (in english or, preferably, RC check on Ebay www.ebay.com LONGFLOAT v. 2.0 beta I've made a multiple precision library for HP49 with + - * / sqrt y^x exp ln sin cos tan asin acos atan sinh cosh tanh and some auxiliary functions for both real and complex input. The precision is set in local/global variable DIGITS. Results should be accurate within +/- 1 in last digit. Integers, longfloats and long complex may generally be mixed. The library is to a great extent based on modified algorithms of ZMLIB ( a fortran package for multiple precision). I have done some testing, but could really need some more beta-testers, since this kind of library should be extensively tested. Those who are interested and have time to help please let me know. Gjermund Skailand Things not working: automatic list processing ( but DOLIST/DOSUBS ok) error messages ok but give e.g. XLIB 688 69 Error: Bad argument type ( I haven't really understood how Werner Huysegoms fixed this in his library ;-( Some timings (depends on actual numbers): DIGITS=100, x=sqrt(pi) sqrt(x) 0.65 sec. ln(x) 12 sec. exp(x) 5.3 sec sin(x) 5 sec ( sin(asin(sqrt(2.)/2))^6- 0.125 = ~2.E-100 15.0sec z = (123456789 , 0.123456789 ) sqrt(z) 2 sec ln(z) 15.8 sec exp (ln(z)) - z = ~ (-3.E-91, 4.E-96) 24.5sec atan(z) 7.0 sec DIGITS = 1000, pi precomputed Sqrt(pi) 28 sec pi - (sqrt(pi)^2) ~ 1E-998 57.7 sec Integers: x = 2^330 y = 2^3330 Zsqrt( x ) -> TRUE .34 sec in exaxt mode Zsqrt( x ) -> FALSE .31 sec in approx mode Zsqrt( y ) -> TRUE 11.4 sec in exaxt mode Zsqrt( y ) -> FALSE 7.5 sec in approx mode Let n = Zsqrt(m) EXACT mode: always returns n such that n^2 <= m< (n+1)^2 . Also flag= 1 if m=n^2t. (In accordance with JMH's specifications Approx mode: returns n such that ABS(m-n^2) is minimum and regardless of result also return flag=0. PS Some constants, ln(2), ln(10) have been hardcoded with 130 digits, if greater precision are required than about 110 digits, these constants will be recalculated and running time will be thus be significantly greater... > LONGFLOAT v. 2.0 beta > <... Some timings (depends on actual numbers): DIGITS=100, > x=sqrt(pi) > sqrt(x) 0.65 sec. > ln(x) 12 sec. > exp(x) 5.3 sec > sin(x) 5 sec > ( sin(asin(sqrt(2.)/2))^6- 0.125 = ~2.E-100 15.0sec Seems rather slow :-( How about multiplication of 100-digit real floats? -- Bhuvanesh > LONGFLOAT v. 2.0 beta Seems rather slow :-( How about multiplication of 100-digit real floats? > let x = pi as 100-digit real float with user funtion : x*x 0.257 sec with library internal function : x*x 0.207 sec multiplication of 100 digits integer using internal flashpointer ^QMul 0.189 sec , of course for floating point calculation it is a waste to calculate result to double precision, then throw away half of the digits, but still I don't think there much potensial for improvement :( -Gjermund > -- > Bhuvanesh automatic list processing ( but DOLIST/DOSUBS ok) > error messages ok but give e.g. XLIB 688 69 Error: Bad argument type > ( I haven't really understood how Werner Huysegoms fixed this in his > library ;-( If you mean the messages, that's the easy part? Just make sure every command in your lib starts with :: CK0, CK1&Dispatch, CK2&Dispatch .. CK5&Dispatch. Then, when an error occurs and you do eg #68801 ERROROUT, the message will show up with the command name prepended. The Automatic List processing is a bit more difficult, especially since our friends at ACO had changed it, and made a slight error IMHO. (I mean the {1 2 } 3 * -> {3. 6.} part) I have chosen to correct that behaviour in my lib, rather than make the same error. How does it work.. (from memory, so probably not 100% foolproof:-) - in the 48GX, the development team changed the code of the CK&DISPATCH1 routine so that if there was no match, the argument(s) were re-examined to see if either one was a list, and if so, executed the command for every pair of arguments in the list(s). - in the '49, a new object type is introduced: Long Integer. To avoid having to rewrite the dispatching of every command, ACO chose to change the definition of CK&DISPATCH1 again: if no match was found, and the input was a Long Integer, convert the integer to a real and try again. That way, every command that accepted numeric input now accepted the new Long Integers, too (think of IF THEN ELSE END, WHILE REPEAT etc). The trouble is, they put this test *before* the Automatic List Processing Test, instead of after. Automatic List Processing is not recursive, there's a flag controlling whether you're already in ALP mode or not, so they could just as easily have added the Integer-Real conversion test *after* the ALP test, fixing the above problem. It's what I do in my routines. I think some problem remained even with my routines, but I don't remember any more what it was.. You can try it with Mul in my lib: it works as expected { 1 2 } 3 Mul -> { 3 6 } 3 {1 2} Mul -> idem { 2 3 } {3 4} Mul -> {6 12} DIGITS = 1000, pi precomputed > Sqrt(pi) 28 sec > pi - (sqrt(pi)^2) ~ 1E-998 57.7 sec > Gjermund, there seems to be some margin for improvement here. When I calculate Pi to 1000 digits, and then perform << DUP Sqrt DUP Mul Sub >> it takes 28 seconds (<13 for the sqrt), and the result is 0. (the largest error to be expected here is 1.e-999, because both the calculation of Pi, the sqrt, mul and sub guarantee max accuracy.) I always wanted to obtain DIGITS precision. If you specified DIGITS to be 100., then requested VPI, it would return the value of PI rouned to 100. DIGITS. If you set DIGITS to 12., it would return the exact same values as with the built-in reals. That's probably why I never got round to implementing the trig functions ) But Pi calculation (the basis for the trigs) is quite fast. Werner Gjermund, there seems to be some margin for improvement here. > When I calculate Pi to 1000 digits, and then perform > << DUP Sqrt DUP Mul Sub > it takes 28 seconds (<13 for the sqrt), and the result is 0. > (the largest error to be expected here is 1.e-999, because both the I partly disagree With PI correct rounded to 1000 digits the four last digits are 0199 taking square root with 1000 digits, last 4 digits is: 0669 squaring this number, last 4 digits, correctly rounded, is: 0198 thus error must be 0199-0198 = 1 in last digit = 1 E -999 , which is the number actually calculated (Sorry, I did a mistake when manually converting the above number, which is displayed as 100000....E-1998 ). Gjermund > calculation of Pi, the sqrt, mul and sub guarantee max accuracy.) > I always wanted to obtain DIGITS precision. If you specified DIGITS > to be 100., then requested VPI, it would return the value of PI rouned > to 100. DIGITS. > If you set DIGITS to 12., it would return the exact same values as > with the > built-in reals. That's probably why I never got round to implementing > the > trig functions ) But Pi calculation (the basis for the trigs) is > quite fast. Werner > Gjermund, there seems to be some margin for improvement here. >When I calculate Pi to 1000 digits, and then perform ><< DUP Sqrt DUP Mul Sub >it takes 28 seconds (<13 for the sqrt), and the result is 0. >(the largest error to be expected here is 1.e-999, because both the I partly disagree > With PI correct rounded to 1000 digits the four last digits are 0199 > taking square root with 1000 digits, last 4 digits is: 0669 > squaring this number, last 4 digits, correctly rounded, is: 0198 > thus error must be 0199-0198 = 1 in last digit = 1 E -999 > , which is the number actually calculated > (Sorry, I did a mistake when manually converting the above number, which is > displayed as 100000....E-1998 ). > I fully agree! Don't know where the 0 came from.. when I do it now, it shows 1.e-999 > 1) if these big numbers really are relevant > 2) modify the basic multiplication routine, perhaps one can use some 500 > digits multiplications instead of one 1000 digits multiplication > 3) perhaps select another algorithm, perhaps calculate the 1/sqrt(x) > instead, since I too know this is sigificantly faster when digits > about > 200 I use simple Newton-Rhapson iteration.. but doubling the DIGITS at each step, so it is the last step (1000. digits accuracy) that takes the longest. Each iteration consists of 4 adds and 1 divide, so the overall time is in the order of .. a single 1000-digit division. (actually, even less.. for a 1000-digit division divides a 2000-digit number by a 1000-digit number to arrive at an accuracy of 1000 digits, where the last step in the NR-iteration divides a 1500-digit number by a 500-digit number) It's a bit strange.. 1000-digit mul and div take about 17_sec, but the sqrt needs only 14_sec. This means the mul and div can be further optimized But your timings on 100-digit numbers are impressive.. 3 times faster than mine? How do you do it? perhaps the end result will be merging with your library I will not even try to compete with your PI calculation, presently Im using > some AGM iteration whenever necessary, but I think the trigs are ok > Feel free to use it. It has taken me quite a while to select the 'best' method, and to implement it in a fast way. Werner >> Gjermund, there seems to be some margin for improvement here. >> When I calculate Pi to 1000 digits, and then perform >> << DUP Sqrt DUP Mul Sub >> it takes 28 seconds (<13 for the sqrt). I have done some improvement, Pi (1000 digits) << DUP FSQRT DUP FMUL FSUB >> now takes 26.5 seconds, <12 for square root Pi(100 digits) square root now takes 0.46 seconds Gjermund YESHH !! Maybe you will co-operate even more to make the best LongFloat for the 49G: WHIGS-library (I=Integrated :) PS: Do you both support the separation of US from England? > needs only 14_sec. This means the mul and div can be further optimized > But your timings on 100-digit numbers are impressive.. 3 times faster than > mine? How do you do it? > perhaps the end result will be merging with your library I will not even try to compete with your PI calculation, presently Im using >some AGM iteration whenever necessary, but I think the trigs are ok Feel free to use it. It has taken me quite a while to select the 'best' > method, and to implement it in a fast way. Werner >> Gjermund, there seems to be some margin for improvement here. > I use simple Newton-Rhapson iteration.. but doubling the DIGITS at each step, > so it is the last step (1000. digits accuracy) that takes the longest. > Each iteration consists of 4 adds and 1 divide, so the overall time is > in the order of .. a single 1000-digit division. > (actually, even less.. for a 1000-digit division divides a 2000-digit number > by a 1000-digit number to arrive at an accuracy of 1000 digits, where the > last step in the NR-iteration divides a 1500-digit number by a 500-digit number) > It's a bit strange.. 1000-digit mul and div take about 17_sec, but the sqrt > needs only 14_sec. This means the mul and div can be further optimized > But your timings on 100-digit numbers are impressive.. 3 times faster than > mine? How do you do it? > In order to get X = sqrt(Y*10^m), X with eg.n=1000 digits let y= digits of Y and add 1000 zeros + 1 if m is odd, thus y is essencially a 2000 digits integer. I also use Newton-Rhapson iteration with doubling of digits, but for some reason (*) I formulated it as x' = x + ( y - x^2) /(2x), thus at final step to get x of 1000 digits I divide a 2000 digit number by a 1000 digit number ;-( However, what may make the difference is: Since the N-R approx. doubles the accuracy of x' for each step, I choose starting digits such that the 2nd last iteration will have much more than half correct digits, then in last iteration, with full precision, I'm guaranteed that I will have the precision required without checking. ( starting digits are either 2*3 or 2*4 ), and except final iteration x is only half of the digits compared to x' x and y I don't need exact result for floating point, but in some cases when I need it for ZSQRT2 there may be an additional iteration. (*) the x' = x + ( y - x^2) /(2x) may in some cases makes it easy to know whether you should add or subtract 1 in last digit in order to get z*2 <= y < (z+1)^2 After your comments I will need to reconsider change to either x' = x+(y/x-x)/2 or x'= (x+y/x)/2 which should be faster for approx. results. Especially since ln and all complex trig functions use AGM iteration with square roots With large numbers, somewhere between 1000-2000 digits, I suspect that the ^QMul, ^QDiv might changes algorithms, since the running time then increases rapidly. -Gjermund PS sqrt(pi) with 200 digits 1.5 sec, 400 digits 4.5 sec Hey! You could work together and exchange ideas. Veli-Pekka X > perhaps the end result will be merging with your library I will not even try to compete with your PI calculation, presently Im using > some AGM iteration whenever necessary, but I think the trigs are ok X > Is it possible to do this in hp49g ? > 1. Conformal Transformation of regions Well, if you mean that the HP49G should check if the mapping is conformal, then you have to program a little. If you mean just showing what the mapping lloks like, then you have the plot type GRIDMAP, which will draw what the transformation looks like. > 2. Calculate Function Series where the function is defined from C-->C The command SERIES does this in case of an explicitely defined function like Z-->e^Z . If you have something else (parametric functions etc), then you must convert it to its explicit form (if possible). Nick. I've some experience in softkeys menus in RPL What I want now is get from the ROM of my 48GX the program that creates the stat menu 96, for modifying it, and assign the new menu to the key LS 5. The standard assignament of this key is: :: MenuMaker ROMPTR A9 60 DoMenuKey ; What must I do for recovering the original program menu from the ROM? > I've some experience in softkeys menus in RPL > What I want now is get from the ROM of my 48GX the program that creates the > stat menu 96, for modifying it, and assign the new menu to the key LS 5. > The standard assignament of this key is: > :: MenuMaker ROMPTR A9 60 DoMenuKey > What must I do for recovering the original program menu from the ROM? this is just the question I discussed some days ago in my post The Menu System. Obviously, one has to get the menu to the stack for manipulatiing it. This just does the command LMN (List Menu Names) from OT48. I put this library on my site below for you, but without any documentation (not yet ready :-). Perhaps you should read in OT49.txt what this powerful command does. The 48-LMN command was programmed completely different from its 49-LMN version because the menu system of these two calculators differ considerably. Menu 96 is a 1-page menu of statistical directory names. These names itself aren't rompointers since dir-names are neither in HARDROM nor in libraries. If you run 96 LMN, you get the list of rompointers { XLIB 168 101 ... XLIB 168 106 }. This is just the result of splitting rompointer XLIB 169 96 which is what is commonly called an array of XLIB-names. Unfortunately, even JAZZ would not help here because JAZZ does not treat arrays of XLIB-names :-) But with LMN you get this list of XLIB names which isn't a correct name here - it's a list of rompointers each of which is itself a lists of 2 items: the head is the menu-key builder and the second item is the program executed if the menu key is pressed. Anyway, if you've got JAZZ, you can read and modify the rompointers in the above list ad libitum. If not, one can still use the above list to append or to omit some items. For modification one may use the command 3tog from Ot48. It allows to decompose and to rebuilt arbitrary lists and programs composed from SysRPL objects, even if these are unreadable without tools like ED from JAZZ. You can also extract rompointers with the command DTYPE from OT49, but clearly, for reading them in detail one needs very strong decompilation tools like JAZZ. Note that the result of any manipulation *must* be a proper argument for TMENU or maybe CST. Study, for instance, the examples under LMN from OT49.txt. Hope this helps - Wolfgang this is just the question I discussed some days ago > in my post The Menu System. > Menu 96 is a... > ..... > Hope this helps - Wolfgang Well. I think my aim is very difficult with my knowledge of SysRPL and my no-knowledge of OT48... After all, I must teach maths (and live!) Well. I think my aim is very difficult with my knowledge of SysRPL and my > no-knowledge of OT48... Spying the Spectrum's ROM was easier... Beta in my GX, and I have a couple of questions. First, the Erable documentation refers several times to a Beginners' Menu that should appear when the PRG key is pressed. I always get the standard 48 PRG menu from that key, regardless of whether it's in USER mode or not. However, the Erable main menu *does* come up when I press MTH. Second, without Erable installed, pressing Right-Shift MEMORY brings up the MK Filer, but after installing Erable, this key sequence reverts to the regular 48 Memory display. Can anyone tell me why either (or both) of these things are happening, and if there's a way to fix them? -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock >Beta in my GX, and I have a couple of questions. First, the Erable >documentation refers several times to a Beginners' Menu that should >appear when the PRG key is pressed. I always get the standard 48 PRG >menu from that key, regardless of whether it's in USER mode or not. >However, the Erable main menu *does* come up when I press MTH. Second, >without Erable installed, pressing Right-Shift MEMORY brings up the MK >Filer, but after installing Erable, this key sequence reverts to the >regular 48 Memory display. Wayne, My Erable 3.119 works as described. I had to use the beginners menu today to get the original math menu because I did not remember the new short cut for that. My flags are RCLF #8000010045014FF1h #10EC01h. Perhaps it was removed from the absolute version. I am pretty new at this system also. Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) > Wayne, > My Erable 3.119 works as described. I had to use the beginners menu today to > get the original math menu because I did not remember the new short cut for > that. My flags are RCLF #8000010045014FF1h #10EC01h. > Perhaps it was removed from the absolute version. I am pretty new at this > system also. In 3.201 you can get to the original math menu with alpha-rightshift-MTH. I assume it works the same way in 3.119, but I haven't tried it. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock >In 3.201 you can get to the original math menu with alpha-rightshift-MTH. >I assume it works the same way in 3.119, but I haven't tried it. > I knew it was a simple key combination. I just forgot what and didn't have time to look. Using the other menu gets me there in a few keystrokes. version from a covered port? Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) > My Erable 3.119 works... I had problems with this version (I remember several TTRM's in class using REF with some matrices) so I'm using the 3.2 for years... > Beta in my GX, and I have a couple of questions. First, the Erable > documentation refers several times to a Beginners' Menu that should > appear when the PRG key is pressed. I always get the standard 48 PRG > menu from that key, regardless of whether it's in USER mode or not. > However, the Erable main menu *does* come up when I press MTH. Second, > without Erable installed, pressing Right-Shift MEMORY brings up the MK > Filer, but after installing Erable, this key sequence reverts to the > regular 48 Memory display. > I never used the Erable assignments, so can't help you with the begginers' menu, and I never had the Filer problem... If this occurs in USR mode, clear this assignment. I think it's MUCH better you work with the new commands looking for them in the main Erable menu and with time, you will see which of them you frequently use and then you will be able of make your own assignments and menus... > I never used the Erable assignments, so can't help you with the begginers' > menu, and I never had the Filer problem... If this occurs in USR mode, clear > this assignment. > I think it's MUCH better you work with the new commands looking for them in > the main Erable menu and with time, you will see which of them you > frequently use and then you will be able of make your own assignments and > menus... how to do the things the documentation says are on it. It's just that I'm one of those people who always want to make things work the way they're documented, whether I need them or not... As for the Filer issue, it turns out that it's not caused by Erable at all, but by the modified eqstk that's installed by the simplified installation procedure after it installs Erable. If I disable the modified eqstk, then RIGHT-SHIFT MEMORY brings up the Filer both in and out of USER mode; but with eqstk enabled it brings up the normal 48 OBJECTS IN { HOME } display. So I've just made a key assignment for Filer on [RS] MEMORY which works in USER mode even with eqstk enabled. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock > ...So I've just made a key assignment for > Filer on [RS] MEMORY which works in USER mode even with eqstk > enabled. Ok... but I think that eqstk is for showing equations in pretty print, isn't as I never used it, I can not be sure). >> ...So I've just made a key assignment for >> Filer on [RS] MEMORY which works in USER mode even with eqstk >> enabled. > Ok... but I think that eqstk is for showing equations in pretty print, isn't > as I never used it, I can not be sure). I think you're right. It was installed automatically when I installed Erable, but doesn't seem to be required. I think I'll reinstall with the Personalized instead of the Simplified install so I can choose exactly which components to install. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock > Hmmm, the HP49G is *not* a simple push-button-get-answer-calc. ...... snip Neither is the TI-89. You can program the TI-89 as well. Because my understanding of the TI89 is quite limited and only based on what I read on this newsgroup and in its (very nice) manual, I have one question: Can the TI89 be programmed to find for example the already mentioned (and also snipped ) generating functions of sequences? Or anything else that lies totally outside the domain of mathematics which its built-in commands cover? How could that be done? Is the command set of the TI89 capable of doing this? > Further it's > documented by the manufacturer so you have a chance of actually adopting it. Yep, that's completely right. The TI89 *is* documented, while this can't be said for other machines > Putting out this type of complicated machinery and then requiring people to > hunt down obscure documentation (how readily available is Urroz's material) > and you can see there are great obstacles to adoption of this hardware. HP > admitted it by cancelling production. This was the most sophisticated of > it's machine's but it did the poorest. Sophisticated? Well, I would rather say complex, but for sophisticated I would expect some things to be considerably better. But it doesn't do poor, if doing poor means what problems it can solve. Quite the contrary, it does very good, but only if one had 1000000 years time to play with it and learn its tricky behaviors. > It was also the poorest documented, > coincidence, possibly but I'd be willing to bet it wasn't. You can't hand > this out, say guess how to use it and expect people to adopt it, when there > is a cheaper, more accessible, better hardware product out there. So it is. Not many people will buy a product only to find out, that its usage has to be learned by gathering information bit by bit from newsgroups. > Will this calculator do great things? I don't know but the fact I have to > pay 60 bucks for some documentation to figure out if it will is angering. Oh yes, it is very much so! That's why I make the marathons > Further when you can get exact integrals on the plot, symbolic integration > by simply omitting the bounds and other simple accessible functions, on the > 89, it's hard to adopt a deliberately obfuscated piece of machinery. Will > it do these things? Maybe, but you have to program them. This type of interactive operations are limited on the HP49G compared to the TI89. The HP49G puts more weight on the algebraic manipulation. Find some special points of a function, solutions, extrema, whatsoever, symbolically or numerically, and then use them as integration limits in the functions provided for integration. > I'm a software engineer by profession, to design a program for something you > have to have a better understanding than the rank beginner (assuming you > actually want your program to do what you say it will do). Not only this. For mathematics software you also must have good understanding of the underlying mathematics. This seems to frustrate many students because they must master maths stuff that they didn't yet take (and perhaps they'll never do, because they don't need that directly). > Anyway to have > to understand these functions to the level of being able to design programs > for them sort of puts the cart before the horse doesn't it? front of the question: How much math knowledge is required for programming the HP49G? Even further, how much math should one learn? The answer is: Learn as much as you can. It helps and not only for programming the HP49G or any other machine. But most of the world nowadays preferes to gather knowledge about the color of the new shoes of some celebrity and other useless stuff, instead of focusing on the queen of all sciences. Have anybody wondered why A beautiful mind was such a success? Why has almost nobody knew about nash prior to the movie? > You are taking > the class to understand these algorithms but you have to program a > calculator to do them, that requires a complete understanding of the > algorithms you are attempting to learn. Oh no! If you carefully track your path through the jungle of mathematics you can achieve a situation where (more or less) the new stuff bases on the already learned stuff. > You can't really argue that HP > isn't targetting the academic market because that's why they removed the > beloved equation library from it isn't it, or is it? Did I say that? > That seems to be > another problem with this calc they didn't define the target market. Yes, something like that. To me it seems that HP just thought that the whole market will (must?) buy the HP49G. This was a failure if we consider how big and this market is and how big the differences between its sub groups are. > Anyway I believe in HP calcs. I'm an older person and have owned them for > years and years. I purchased this calc based upon my experience with my > 48GX, and all my older ones. Suffice to say the last TI I owned was the SR > 56 before the 89 came out. I didn't adopt it lightly but only when my 48GX > wouldn't do the job quickly enough. Anyway I will learn this calc and use it. But I won't pretend it's something > it isn't. What is it? And what is it not? I think it is a quite complex and quirky but also very flexible machine, that allows to program it to do what you want it to do. Sometimes I get the impression that the HP-users, especially the older ones (like me, that is ) expect the time to stop somewhere at the HP41 or the HP48. But this will never work. A calculator that is mainly for carrying some operations with numbers and perhaps a bit of symbolic manipulations is something completely different to a CAS-calculator. The known simplicity *will* vanish when we move from number crunchers to CAS-machines. Anyway, as said before, I also find many things on the HP49G quite unexpected, but for the time being we have nothing else than finding such things and trying to work around them using real existing means. Anyway, still dreaming of the HP58. Nick. ......snip > Because my understanding of the TI89 is quite limited and only based > on what I read on this newsgroup and in its (very nice) manual, I have > one question: Can the TI89 be programmed to find for example the > already mentioned (and also snipped ) generating functions of > sequences? Or anything else that lies totally outside the domain of > mathematics which its built-in commands cover? How could that be done? > Is the command set of the TI89 capable of doing this? > snipped..... Nick the TI-89 supports use of assembly language, initially an addon but eventually ti sponsored, There is also a C compiler, third party, so it's fairly extendable, just different.... why am I using the 49 if I'm such a fan of the 89? I'm not a fan of either. These are both tools. I only code when paid and I have other hobbies, mostly ancient textile arts so I'd rather spend my spare time there than programming around arcane and poorly supported hardware. The instructor of the class I'm taking won't allow use of the 89 but will allow use of the 49. That certainly says something. But whatever that statement is is open for interpretation. If you are interested in programming for the 89 here's a good site to gain information from http://www.technoplaza.net/tigcc-asm/. A great example of the inconsistency of the 49 is putting 4x+3 on the stack then click on solvex This gets you the correct answer -3/4. Open the numeric solver put in the expression 4x+3 and you get -.750000000001! It really seems the answer to such a basic expression should be consistently correct..... anyway... As for me I just want the tools to work with a reasonable investment of time for the level of sophistication of the tool. So far it seems to me the 49 requires to great a learning curve and to many unnecessary hurdles to perform some items that should seemingly be included. But that's just my opinion I am sure everyone elses will vary. However I will use it and appreciate the help I get here. If it weren't for this newsgroup this calculator would be virtually useless. So you guys are an incredible resource and very much appreciated. Carmen > ......snip >Because my understanding of the TI89 is quite limited and only based >on what I read on this newsgroup and in its (very nice) manual, I have >one question: Can the TI89 be programmed to find for example the >already mentioned (and also snipped ) generating functions of >sequences? Or anything else that lies totally outside the domain of >mathematics which its built-in commands cover? How could that be done? >Is the command set of the TI89 capable of doing this? > snipped..... Nick the TI-89 supports use of assembly language, initially an addon but > eventually ti sponsored, There is also a C compiler, third party, so it's > fairly extendable, just different.... I see. It is only that ( I think ) most people out there who buy a programmable calculator expect some more or less easy understandable programming language, one that resembles what they do when they do calculations by pressing keys. I can't imagine many people buying a programmable calculator that can be programmed for doing more complicated things but with assemply or C. It is that the underlying math gets hidden for most people then. (Note: I don't say that math disappears, only gets hidden.) Example: Let's mess up with generating functions. (They impressed me quite strongly, I guess ) We want to make a program to find such a thing. Now, if the calculator has a rich set of commands that allows us to somehow accomplish the job by using our more or less known commands like LIMIT, SOLVE or whatsoever, then two things are more focused and appear transparent: The underlying mathematics and the clarity of the program. It is easier to think in terms of find the characteristic polynomial, solve it, make a general linear combination of the solutions, find the linear combination that satisfies the inital conditions,... and so on and at the same time having commands that correspond more or less directly to our involved steps. Using assempler or C makes things a bit more difficult, not because the mathematics disappear, but because we go deeper and deeper in the inner world of bits and bytes, which of course are just another way to express what the mathematics that we learn in school express, but harder to decode for our brains. When we take this to the endth degree, then we end binary code, which (for me) is more difficult to understand, than a couple of commands like LIMIT or SOLVE. If I remember well, Bhuvanesh has said that for some reason the built-in commands of the TI89/92 can't be used when someone programs that in C. Or am I mistake here? Now, if most people would program the calc with its own programming language (the one that contains the set of built-in commands and functions) rather than with C or assempler, one question rises: Is it OK to (indirectly) limit this programming possibility by restricting the set of built-in commands to a less flexible level? Shouldn't a high degree of flexibility be offered to the normal-user who doesn't care that much about bits and bytes? > why am I using the 49 if I'm such a > fan of the 89? I'm not a fan of either. These are both tools. Yes, they are. That's why they should be flexible and their flexibility should be easily available for anyone that uses them. > I only code > when paid and I have other hobbies, mostly ancient textile arts so I'd > rather spend my spare time there than programming around arcane and poorly > supported hardware. The instructor of the class I'm taking won't allow use > of the 89 but will allow use of the 49. That certainly says something. It says that the HP49G is allowed while the TI89 isn't. That's all. No more, no less. If wee trusted the opinions of class instructors back in the eighties or even in the early nineties, we would not be allowed to use anything today. Opinions anybody can have. But knowledge is sparse. Had the (majority of)instructors undestood what math is about, they would not have any problem with the 89 or the 49. The rest of the sentence you are allowed to use this but not that is only interpretation and speculation. > But > whatever that statement is is open for interpretation. I should have read further, me stupid person with strictly serial interfaces to the world ) > If you are interested > in programming for the 89 here's a good site to gain information from > http://www.technoplaza.net/tigcc-asm/. Ahh, thank you very much. I'll try to understand the contents of the site, though assempler always causes an allergic reaction in my soul... > A great example of the inconsistency of the 49 is putting 4x+3 on the stack > then click on solvex This gets you the correct answer -3/4. Open the > numeric solver put in the expression 4x+3 and you get -.750000000001! It > really seems the answer to such a basic expression should be consistently > correct..... anyway... It is not inconsistent at all. SOLVEX is (mainly) an exact analytic solver, while the other is just what you said, a *numeric* solver. The mathematical methods involved are completely different. The first solves analytically (if possible) and doesn't care about particular values of results. You could also solve a*x+b and get the result -b/a with SOLVEX, which is the analytic closed form of the solution no matter what a and b are. But the numeric solver solves only for one particular case of a and b (your case being b=3 and a=4) and returns the solution that holds only for this case. > As for me I just want the tools to work with a reasonable investment of time > for the level of sophistication of the tool. So far it seems to me the 49 > requires to great a learning curve It indeed does. But so does mathematics. > and to many unnecessary hurdles to > perform some items that should seemingly be included. Seemingly included, seemingly for you, Carmen. Your wish for included is important, but so are the wishes of anybody else. Add all these wishes and make them includes, then you end up with presumably thousends of functions. It is not elegant and also not sufficient this way. It is better to analyze the wishes and search for a set of commands that allows most wishes to come true. The question then is where the optimum between flexibility and amount of typing is, but it is really not at the extremal point of adding each and every wish as a built-in command. > But that's just my > opinion I am sure everyone elses will vary. However I will use it and > appreciate the help I get here. If it weren't for this newsgroup this > calculator would be virtually useless. So you guys are an incredible > resource and very much appreciated. Yes, this group is a real treasure. I also would still be looking for answers if the people here weren't that helpful. Not to mention how many HP49Gs would have been executed if the answers and the help found here were not available. Nick. while version 12.2002 of Filer1/2 for the 49 was What is new? Now one can easily do ARCHIVE or RESTORE to or from an arbitrary port with a choose box for these commands on a key which is active only if the filer scans a port. Hence, one may keep 3 different backups of the HOME dir (which includes key assignments, alarms etc) in the 3 ports, all under the same port-name HDir. Equal names do not matter since one can RESTORE only from a definite port. This command errors if there is no HDir in the scanned port. Clearly, somebody who often risks a crash can use his favourite expanded filer after a crash only if it is stored in port 2, say, not only key-assigned. The Ar/Rs choose box was checked thoroughly, it is 99% error-proof. I would like to know how 49-users are pleased with the new filer. And I would also appreciate if people working simultaneously with the 48 and 49 would compare the best 48-filer with Filer1 or Filer2. The size-aspect should also count, I need 1.5 KB only :-) Have fun - Wolfgang ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools I've replaced the standard filer with a key assignment to Filer2 and a command for the port2 Ar$Rs in my custom menu. My only suggestion would be to create a little program to automate the keyassignment and perhaps getting the very usefull Ar$Rs into the APPS menu. I'd really like to make use of the Application menu extention but haven't been able or had time to get my head around how it works. I'd like create something that will do something with the variable selected depending on it's type eg program-run it, Equation-start solver routine otherwise leave on stack etc. As for how good it is? I have a directory on my PC for usefull 49 downloads, it has a special subdirectory dedicated to Wolfgang Utilities. All of them are small, quick and generally usefull. Stephen.N while version 12.2002 of Filer1/2 for the 49 was What is new? Now one can easily do ARCHIVE or > RESTORE to or from an arbitrary port with a > choose box for these commands on a key which is > active only if the filer scans a port. Hence, one > may keep 3 different backups of the HOME dir > (which includes key assignments, alarms etc) in > the 3 ports, all under the same port-name HDir. > Equal names do not matter since one can RESTORE > only from a definite port. This command errors if > there is no HDir in the scanned port. Clearly, somebody who often risks a crash can use > his favourite expanded filer after a crash only if > it is stored in port 2, say, not only key-assigned. The Ar/Rs choose box was checked thoroughly, it is > 99% error-proof. I would like to know how 49-users > are pleased with the new filer. And I would also > appreciate if people working simultaneously with > the 48 and 49 would compare the best 48-filer with > Filer1 or Filer2. The size-aspect should also count, > I need 1.5 KB only :-) Have fun - Wolfgang > ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools Anyone got them? I'm too lazy to write one from scratch :( -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. Here is the information I got from the HPCC group about their conference and the HP Reps. Oops, maybe you should have been included on the try to get onto it (eric@brouhaha.com). HP intend to continue in the calculator business! But the new people plan to create _only_ designs. The actual implementation and manufacture will _all_ be subcontracted to large Chinese calculator makers. This seems to be a compromise between those senior HP managers who think that still being in the calculator business is an anachronism for HP, and those who think it is a traditional HP product line and should not be abandoned. Two new business models made this way are in the works and should be released about Christmas or New Year. HP told us the model numbers, but asked us to keep this stuff confidential for now. They also said they would continue with RPN - part of the discussion concerned the suggestion that a new name should be used for RPN - HP Logic System or something like that, since the name RPN is used by the other makers as a way to frighten potential customers. Many of us at the conference felt that this is a bit better than nothing, but that the traditional users who depend on HP quality are likely being abandoned :-( Hope this helps! :-) Wlodek -- Richard Garner rgarner@vidnet.net Business models? At last? Can you at least tell us if they will be serious, professional machines, real RPN replacements for the 19BII or ugly ducklings .88 la 39/40? Please? I'm asking because I'm learning accounting and would like a professional machine. Should I get the 17/19BII or wait? -- Thierry Morissette thm47@msn.com > Here is the information I got from the HPCC group about their conference and > the HP Reps. > Oops, maybe you should have been included on the > try to get onto it (eric@brouhaha.com). HP intend to continue in the calculator business! > But the new people plan to create _only_ designs. > The actual implementation and manufacture will > _all_ be subcontracted to large Chinese calculator > makers. This seems to be a compromise between those > senior HP managers who think that still being in the > calculator business is an anachronism for HP, and > those who think it is a traditional HP product line > and should not be abandoned. Two new business models made this way are in the works > and should be released about Christmas or New Year. HP > told us the model numbers, but asked us to keep this > stuff confidential for now. They also said they would continue with RPN - part of > the discussion concerned the suggestion that a new name > should be used for RPN - HP Logic System or something > like that, since the name RPN is used by the other > makers as a way to frighten potential customers. Many of us at the conference felt that this is a bit > better than nothing, but that the traditional users who > depend on HP quality are likely being abandoned :-( Hope this helps! :-) > Wlodek > -- Richard Garner > rgarner@vidnet.net > Business models? At last? Can you at least tell us if they will be serious, professional machines, > real RPN replacements for the 19BII or ugly ducklings .88 la 39/40? Please? I'm asking because I'm learning accounting and would like a professional > machine. Should I get the 17/19BII or wait? Finally, it would depend on your needs and the time you expect to fullfill them. Can you wait a few months for a new model ? I don't know if the unofficial announcement of a new financial calculator is true or if it would be better than the actual ones (10BII, 12C, 17BII and 19BII). Am I missing anyone ? Many here work around more heavy technical issues, and prefer to program their HP 4X flexible horse-powered machines with their financial needs. I actually own a 49G and bought a 12C, a year ago. In your case, and if I have to choose today, I'd rather buy the HP 17BII model. Hope I'd been useful In message , Thierry >Can you at least tell us if they will be serious, professional >machines, real RPN replacements for the 19BII or ugly ducklings .88 la >39/40? We can't say because they didn't tell us. -- Bruce Horrocks Hampshire England bh@granby.demon.co.uk Rats! > In message , Thierry Can you at least tell us if they will be serious, professional machines, real RPN replacements for the 19BII or ugly ducklings .88 la 39/40? We can't say because they didn't tell us. -- > Bruce Horrocks > Hampshire > England > bh@granby.demon.co.uk > Business models? At last? Can you at least tell us if they will be serious, professional machines, > real RPN replacements for the 19BII or ugly ducklings .88 la 39/40? Please? I'm asking because I'm learning accounting and would like a professional > machine. Should I get the 17/19BII or wait? You did not ask from me, but personally I would buy the 19BII It's both AOL and RPN and the solver is fun to use plus there is relatively lot of room for many formulas. Also it's packed with reprogrammed functions. I wonder if HP could do a more feature-rich calculator... Veli-Pekka This might be a newbie question, but what the heck. I used to do a lot of SysRPL development on the 48GX and most of the development I did was done on the PC with IDE programs like HP-IDE. I recently got a 49G and wanted to start doing SysRPL on it, but can't find any IDE's for the PC to do my development on. I have read that the 49G comes with an editor on the calc itself, which is great, but wanted to do my development on the PC. Can you all give me some suggestions to what I should use to do HP49G SysRPL development on the PC? Links to the programs you suggest would be great also. Again, sorry if the question is completely off-base. Doug > This might be a newbie question, but what the heck. I used to do a lot of > SysRPL development on the 48GX and most of the development I did was done on > the PC with IDE programs like HP-IDE. I recently got a 49G and wanted to > start doing SysRPL on it, but can't find any IDE's for the PC to do my HP had a development system called the SDK or Debug2. For some months now, I have been developing version 2 of that system called Debug4x. Debug4x fixes a ton of bugs and adds a lot of usability features to the old debug2. Debug4x, for example, supports both the 48 and 49. It can pop-up a list of RPL verbs if you type the first few characters; it can show stack diagrams for the RPL under the cursor; it can develop input forms using a GUI interface. I used HP-IDE for a long time. Believe me, you would never want to go back! download the program and add you to the beta test list. The download is about 5 MB and comes with a partially completed help system and demos for libraries, directories and simple verbs. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Graves RKBA! bgraves@ix.netcom.com the development tools for the 49G named 'Debug2' can be found on www.hpcalc.org There may also another, improved & debugged version named 'Debug4x' be coming soon. However, a progrmmable editor like UltraEdit or (preferred) TSE, along with the 32bit HP tools and Emu48 will do the job as good as some IDE. Raymond Douglas Rohm schrieb im Newsbeitrag > This might be a newbie question, but what the heck. I used to do a lot of > SysRPL development on the 48GX and most of the development I did was done on > the PC with IDE programs like HP-IDE. I recently got a 49G and wanted to > start doing SysRPL on it, but can't find any IDE's for the PC to do my > development on. I have read that the 49G comes with an editor on the calc > itself, which is great, but wanted to do my development on the PC. Can you > all give me some suggestions to what I should use to do HP49G SysRPL > development on the PC? Links to the programs you suggest would be great > also. Again, sorry if the question is completely off-base. Doug I have two unused copies of the HP48G Owners Manual. One is still shrinkwrapped. They are $25 or best offer. Can anyone tell me if there is any difference between the HP49 commercialized in France and that in English speaking countries? Clearly the packaging and booklet are in French, but is there any difference in the calculator itself (as there was for the HP48 versions)? Hwyl Paul Can anyone tell me if there is any difference between the HP49 > commercialized in France and that in English speaking countries? > Clearly the packaging and booklet are in French, but is there any > difference in the calculator itself (as there was for the HP48 > versions)? Replying to myself... I checked the FAQ, which made it fairly clear. Today I took the plunge, and bought what was probably the last 49G in a shop in Grenoble. Sadly, the 48<->49 cable is missing so I might have to take it back :-( (it wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have a 48GX). Which leads me to... does anyone know where I can get my hands on a PC cable (since of course the 48 serial cable won't work). A bientot Paul Which leads me to... does anyone know where I can get my hands on a PC > cable (since of course the 48 serial cable won't work). A bientot > Paul I made my own HP48 cable using a tiny 4-pin connector that's sold in electronics stores as a CD-ROM Audio Cable. When I got my HP49, I noticed that the four pins at the lower left are in the same order as the 48, and the little connector fits over them without touching any of the others. The rest of the cable, the PC end, came from a mouse. That means that it's nice and flexible. Since you can buy surplus mice for the equivalent of $5, and the CD-ROM cable for about $1, you get a PC cable for either the 48 or the 49 for about $6. Bill I live in France and in early 2002 I finally decided to buy a HP49G (being a proud and happy owner of a HP42S since 1990). Surprise: I had a lot of difficulties to find one! Then I read on the WWW discussions on HP closing down their calculator line. In my panic I called many dealers in the Paris region and finally when I found one I bought it right away, in an original package, but obviously (lots of dust on the box) a VERY old machine, serial ID01400681 (made in Indonesia), VERSION yields HP49-C, Revision #1.16, Copyright HP 1999. So I thought I had bought one of the last available (but one of the earliest) HP49G in France. Note: This is probably only possible with the french dealers who don't care and don't know about HP machines (I won't tell the name here but is is a big supermarket chain selling lots of electronics). Anyway. They promised me to provide a serial PC connection cable but still I haven't got it, I think they just don't all you guys who keep the world going with this kind of free information exchange. Johannes I live in France and in early 2002 I finally decided to buy a HP49G >(being a proud and happy owner of a HP42S since 1990). Surprise: I had >a lot of difficulties to find one! Then I read on the WWW discussions >on HP closing down their calculator line. In my panic I called many >dealers in the Paris region and finally when I found one I bought it >right away, in an original package, but obviously (lots of dust on the >box) a VERY old machine, serial ID01400681 (made in Indonesia), >VERSION yields HP49-C, Revision #1.16, Copyright HP 1999. So I >thought I had bought one of the last available (but one of the >earliest) HP49G in France. Note: This is probably only possible with >the french dealers who don't care and don't know about HP machines (I >won't tell the name here but is is a big supermarket chain selling >lots of electronics). Anyway. They promised me to provide a serial PC >connection cable but still I haven't got it, I think they just don't >all you guys who keep the world going with this kind of free >information exchange. Well, the HP49G that I bought in Darty a couple of weeks ago was an ID93 model, 1.05 ROM (since then I've read that there are problems with that version's serial port). When i bought it, it was the demonstration model in the shop, and when I got back, I noticed that the cable was missing so i took it back and got a replacement. I also noticed that the box bore more than one of the stickers that they put on at the collection point in the shop, so both of the calculators must have been returned at least once already. I already have a 48GX (with PC cable), and I've jury rigged with 4 short pieces of wire and some sticky tape a bridge between the PC-HP48 cable and the HP48-HP49 cable. A bientot Paul -- Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth) What happens if you have lead in your pants as well as lead in your pencil? Please can others try the following boolean expression with Bool49, Truth Table and OneTerm (A AND C) OR (A AND D) OR (B AND C) OR (B AND D) Truth table gives me a table of all zeros, and OneTerm returns [A B C D] correct list of variable and an empty list {} incorrect. I expect it to return {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. Do others see the same behaviour or is it something specific to me? > Truth table gives me a table of all zeros, I get the correct truth table. > and OneTerm returns [A B C > D] correct list of variable and an empty list {} incorrect. I expect > it to return {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. I get {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. Do you have anything stored in the variables A, B, C or D? If not, provide your flag list, and I'll see what I can find. >Truth table gives me a table of all zeros, I get the correct truth table. > and OneTerm returns [A B C >D] correct list of variable and an empty list {} incorrect. I expect >it to return {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. I get {5 6 7 9 10 11 13 14 15}. Do you have anything stored in the variables > A, B, C or D? I don't think I have A,B,C or D defined. I have tried typing A [ENTER] in the HOME directory and the directory where I was orgininally using Bool49v2.0, this I'll call my Working Directory. In both cases I end up with 'A' on the stack. Similaryl with B,C & D. Typing VARS to give a list of varriables in the working directory, and intermediate directory between Working and HOME and the HOME directory gives me a list of variables, A,B, C or D are not present in any of these lists. Conclusion I don't think I have any variables called A,B, C or D. Have I missed any possibilities here? Just for completeness I tried (DOG AND HORSE) OR (DOG AND ZEBRA) OR (FISH AND HORSE) OR (FISH AND ZEBRA) and again got the all zeros truth table and null result from one term. If not, provide your flag list, and I'll see what I can find. I presume by the flag list you mean the system flags accessed via [MODE][FLAGS] The following have a check mark 19,31,36,40,41,42,44,57,68,72,73,82,90,114,117,119,128 Just in case it is of significance ROM version 1.19-6 MArk > Have I missed any possibilities here? No, you were very thorough - I would only have checked with 'A' ENTER etc. > I presume by the flag list you mean the system flags accessed via > [MODE][FLAGS] Yes, you can recall your flags with the command RCLF. Such a recalled list can then be stored again with STOF - that's a fast way to change back to a previous set of settings. > The following have a check mark 19,31,36,40,41,42,44,57,68,72,73,82,90,114,117,119,128 You like the small font, eh? > Just in case it is of significance ROM version 1.19-6 I bet you have the internal word size set to 3 or less - run the command RCWS and see if it returns 3 or less? Now do 64 STWS, and use Bool49 again :-) >Have I missed any possibilities here? No, you were very thorough - I would only have checked with 'A' ENTER etc. > I presume by the flag list you mean the system flags accessed via >[MODE][FLAGS] Yes, you can recall your flags with the command RCLF. Such a recalled list > can then be stored again with STOF - that's a fast way to change back to a > previous set of settings. > The following have a check mark 19,31,36,40,41,42,44,57,68,72,73,82,90,114,117,119,128 You like the small font, eh? > { # 12B8A41050FF0h #180000000000000h #8052000002020188H #400h} >Just in case it is of significance ROM version 1.19-6 I bet you have the internal word size set to 3 or less - run the command > RCWS and see if it returns 3 or less? Now do 64 STWS, and use Bool49 again > :-) OK you hit the jackpot. I have a program that executed 3 STWS. The program takes the output of OneTerm and converts the result back to a boolean expression just to make reading easier. I am trying to work out if a boolean expression or list is the best presentation format. The boolean expression has the advatage of being able to use BView. Need to work on the program a more following this discussion. MArk H Do RCLF VP X > I presume by the flag list you mean the system flags accessed via > [MODE][FLAGS] The following have a check mark 19,31,36,40,41,42,44,57,68,72,73,82,90,114,117,119,128 I just uploaded the second part of the update to the sequences, series and limits marathon to hpcalc. The marathon contains now in addition to the already existing contents, how recurrence sequences can be handled with the HP49G and programs for finding generating functions and converting (some kinds of) recurrences to their analytic closed forms, so that the programs then can find bounds condensation points etc. If someone can't wait until the next update of hpcalc, don't hesitate Nick. I've used my hp49g for a couple of years now and I'm completly saticfied. But today it started doing a thing that it never done before, it asked me Change to approx mod? or something like that, and if I didn't do it, the result couldn't be calculated! I've never tried that before. I always just keep it in exact mode. What flags is missing now? Another thing that started today, I can't write 85^4 (or similar expression) without my calculator calculates the value right away! And it doesn't write it nicely! It simply puts out the value without the EE. What's wrong here? Last thing, is just a questions about the hp49g in general. How come the Ti89 is faster at calculating integrals? Eg. x*exp(-x^2) integrated from 0 to infinite. The Ti89 gives the answer right away but the hp49g needs a lot of time to think about it, before it gives the answer 1/2. And the integral x^2*exp(-x^2) integrated from 0 to infinite can't even be calculated on my hp49g, but it can be done on the Ti89. Anyone with a reason for this? Anders Misfeldt > But today it started doing a thing that it never done before, > it asked me Change to approx mod? or something like that, That is because you provide numeric input - any number with a decimal point is considered numeric input. If you have used numeric input before without the calc asking you permission to change mode, it's because you have had silent mode ON earlier (set flag -120). > Another thing that started today, I can't write 85^4 (or similar > expression) without my calculator calculates the value right away! And > it doesn't write it nicely! It simply puts out the value without the EE. Huh? Example, please. > Last thing, is just a questions about the hp49g in general. How come the > Ti89 is faster at calculating integrals? Eg. x*exp(-x^2) integrated > from 0 to infinite. The Ti89 gives the answer right away but the hp49g > needs a lot of time to think about it, before it gives the answer 1/2. The TI89 spends 0.16 seconds on this, while the HP49G spends 4.36 seconds. The reason is simple: The TI89 uses heuristics widely, which is a huge advantage when dealing with integrals like yours. Specifically, the TI89 looks in a table if it knows the integral, and plugs in the limits - the HP49G *calculates* each integral, hence it'll always spend an amount of time applying calculus rules. The HP49G could also have used heuristics, had it been implemented that way, but Bernard Parisse chose not to. I guess because of development time and lack of space - the latter is most likely. When the integrals get tougher, the HP49G will sometimes beat the TI89 with a large margin, but whenever you calculate school book examples (a very wide group of problems), the TI89 knows the answers pretty much right away. Some examples, where the TI89 is alot slower than the HP49G: '1/(X^4+1)^4' 'X' RISCH, TI89: 113.27 seconds, HP49G: 9.80 seconds '1/(SIN(X)-2)^3' 'X' RISCH, TI89: 36.74 seconds, HP49G: 12.57 seconds 'EXP(X)*COS(X)^4*X^3' 'X' RISCH, TI89: 42.51 seconds, HP49G: 15.58 seconds > And the integral x^2*exp(-x^2) integrated from 0 to infinite can't even > be calculated on my hp49g, but it can be done on the Ti89. There does not exist a closed form solution to the integral of 'X^2*EXP(-(X^2))' - that is, not without utilizing special functions like ERF(X). Such special functions aren't supported by either of the two calcs, and even the TI89 calculates this integral numerically. So can the HP49G, but it won't do that automatically, like the TI89 - you have to use ->NUM or be in numeric mode. With 5 decimals accuracy, the TI89 spends 10.50 seconds on the above, while the HP49G spends 17.08 seconds when ->NUM is used - they agree on the result There exist a number of expressions the TI89 can't integrate, where the HP49G can (as well as the other way around, of course). For example: '(a*LN(a)-2*X^2)/(a*LN(a)^2)'|a=X^2-1 -> 'X/LN(X^2-1)' '(2*X^2+1)*EXP(X^2)' -> 'X*EXP(X^2)' '1/(1+SQRT(X^2-1))' -> ...alot... ...alot... -> 'LN(X)^2/(EXP(X)+1)+LN(EXP(X)+1)' There exist also factorizations that the TI89 can't do, while the HP49G can. There are even a larger number of limits the TI fails at, while its solver is very good. The two machines have very different powers. >>Another thing that started today, I can't write 85^4 (or similar >>expression) without my calculator calculates the value right away! And >>it doesn't write it nicely! It simply puts out the value without the EE. Huh? Example, please. > Ok eg. I want to calculate 4^84, so In RPN-mode I write: 2: 4 1: 84 then hit the Y^x buttom and then I get this on my display: 1: 374144419156711147060143317175368453031918731001856 instead of just: 1: 4^84 or 1: 3.741444E50 maybe with more or less decimals. How can that be? Anders >Another thing that started today, I can't write 85^4 (or similar >expression) without my calculator calculates the value right away! And >it doesn't write it nicely! It simply puts out the value without the EE. > Huh? Example, please. > Ok eg. I want to calculate 4^84, so > In RPN-mode I write: > 2: 4 > 1: 84 > then hit the Y^x buttom and then I get this on my display: > 1: 374144419156711147060143317175368453031918731001856 Right! > instead of just: > 1: 4^84 Use '4^84' > or > 1: 3.741444E50 Use 4. 84. [Y^x] > maybe with more or less decimals. > How can that be? You have several choises Use the one that you want/need/prefer. > Anders > Veli-Pekka PS: You may also try the ALG-side or simply use `back-quotas` for direct ALG VP > How come the Ti89 is faster at calculating integrals? Eg. x*exp(-x^2) > integrated from 0 to infinite. The Ti89 gives the answer right away but the > hp49g needs a lot of time to think about it, before it gives the answer 1/2. Maybe the TI-89 evaluates the corresponding indefinite integral and subtitutes the endpoints (taking limits if needed)? Since its indefinite integration is very fast, that would explain it. > And the integral x^2*exp(-x^2) integrated from 0 to infinite can't even > be calculated on my hp49g, but it can be done on the Ti89. Anyone with a > reason for this? Not really answering the question but posing a related one: does the HP49G automatically try for an approximate solution if it can't find an exact one? Also, is there an equivalent for the approx() function on the HP49G? -- Bhuvanesh > How come the Ti89 is faster at calculating integrals? Eg. x*exp(-x^2) >integrated from 0 to infinite. The Ti89 gives the answer right away but the >hp49g needs a lot of time to think about it, before it gives the answer 1/2. Maybe the TI-89 evaluates the corresponding indefinite integral and > subtitutes the endpoints (taking limits if needed)? Since its > indefinite integration is very fast, that would explain it. > And the integral x^2*exp(-x^2) integrated from 0 to infinite can't even >be calculated on my hp49g, but it can be done on the Ti89. Anyone with a >reason for this? Not really answering the question but posing a related one: does the > HP49G automatically try for an approximate solution if it can't find > an exact one? Only for polynomials, if you have numeric factorization activated. For other things you must use ROOT or related commands. >Also, is there an equivalent for the approx() function > on the HP49G? Yes, ->NUM and XNUM. Nick. Also, is there an equivalent for the approx() function >on the HP49G? Yes, ->NUM and XNUM. Those don't sound like equivalents. Remember that approx() not only numericalizes exact numbers but also temporarily uses APPROX mode in calculations (that are between the parentheses). Bhuvanesh. > Those don't sound like equivalents. Remember that approx() not only > numericalizes exact numbers but also temporarily uses APPROX mode in > calculations (that are between the parentheses). So does ->NUM and XNUM. One of the differences between the two is that XNUM leaves the calc in numeric mode. Real mode: Sigma(X=-5,2000,X) EVAL (exact mode): 2.08 seconds Sigma(X=-5,2000,X) EVAL (numeric mode): 14.23 seconds Sigma(X=-5,2000,X) ->NUM (exact mode): 14.51 seconds Sigma(X=-5,2000,X) XNUM (exact mode): 14.75 seconds Hence, ->NUM and XNUM runs in approx mode. > Sigma(X=-5,2000,X) EVAL (exact mode): 2.08 seconds The TI89 spends 3.81 seconds here, by the way... > Sigma(X=-5,2000,X) EVAL (numeric mode): 14.23 seconds ...but only 7.75 seconds here I am trying to test for a number being <0 and >0 (well two separate numbers really) I have used the %0< command but I do not know how to deal with this, if I run the program on the calculator all I get is an external. Is this system rpl speak for TRUE? or am I way off course. An example would be most helpful. MC I am trying to test for a number being <0 and >0 (well two separate numbers > really) I have used the %0< command but I do not know how to deal with this, > if I run the program on the calculator all I get is an external. Is this > system rpl speak for TRUE? or am I way off course. An example would be most > helpful. > MC The 48/49 will sow external for many pointers that are not USERRPL commands. In your case it may very well be the TRUE pointer. A way to find out is to decompile it with ->S2 an example it checks if the number is greater than 0 and does different things to it depending on the outcome :: CK1&Dispatch 1 :: DUP %0> ITE (if then else) :: %8 %+ (executed if true) ; :: xSIN xSQ (executed if false) ; ; ; @ -- ir. P.F.Geelhoed Delft University of Technology Laboratory for Aero & Hydrodynamics Leeghwaterstraat 21, 2628 CA Delft, The Netherlands +31-15-2786656 / +31-15-2782947 (fax) peter@dutw1479.wbmt.tudelft.nl Or set flag -85, then the stack will be displayed with the SysRPL decompiler, and TRUE will display as TRUE (if extable is present), just as with SSTK in Jazz (at least the HP48 Jazz version). Set flag -92 before compiling SysRPL. ((o)) . . Everytime I goto graph, i get invalid ppar and cannot graph a damn thing. Is there a way to reset the ppar to default? I tried the ppar values from the hp48gx manual, but still get an error ( I have a 49 and no info in those manuals) Any help would be greatly appreciated. Brandt > Is there a way to reset the ppar to default? It will be automatically recreated with defaults if first purged from the current directory. > I tried the ppar values from the hp48gx manual The default 'PPAR' list is: { (-6.5,-3.1) (6.5,3.2) X 0. (0.,0.) FUNCTION Y } If you copied from a 48gx manual and typed 0 as the resolution instead of 0. and if your 49 was also in Exact input mode at the time, then this would cause Invalid PPAR! The RES command will safely convert even integer type to real, however. [r->] [OFF] . Put 'ppar' on the stack and then purge it. Everytime I goto graph, i get invalid ppar and cannot graph a damn > thing. Is there a way to reset the ppar to default? I tried the ppar > values from the hp48gx manual, but still get an error ( I have a 49 > and no info in those manuals) Any help would be greatly appreciated. > Brandt >Put 'ppar' on the stack and then purge it. > Don't forget you may need to do this for other PPARs in other directories above the current one if you are in a subdirectory when you start, until you find the one(s) that is invalid. Dennis Put 'ppar' on the stack and then purge it. Don't forget you may need to do this for other PPARs in other directories above > the current one if you are in a subdirectory when you start, until you find > the one(s) that is invalid. Dennis Seen: > Don't forget you may need to do this for other PPARs > in other directories above the current one, > if you are in a subdirectory when you start, > until you find the invalid one(s). Only the current directory is searched for 'PPAR'; if not already present in the current directory, a new 'PPAR' will be created there if needed, regardless of any others existing in higher directories (any exception would be a bug, so note it if you can find it). Some brand new 49 coding tended to forget the here part of various SysRPL words, causing several problems, but this should not have happened. [r->] [OFF] . was very angry. What do you think? Please, understand me. I still do love HP for those golden years. It might make no sense to you, but I'm sharing it only here to be aware of how can a loyal customer feel. These were the planned headers in the beginning. point? I was right. Right you are. Certainly Carly Fiorina should know the trained skills her employees have. So YOU ARE familiar with the newsgroup I referenced... and you still had to search for key pressure. (Thought in that case you'd already filled forms regarding users requirements, inquiries... Oh Lord, I must be so naive !!!) And the only reference that YOU could find to the differences (mentioned), between the CN and the ID calculators (in the more than 96,000 threads in comp.sys.hp48), ... concluded Key pressure on both calcs are about the same. 3 Newtons, to be specific. (???) Later on about 3 N of pressure to depress the key where the older HP Calculators required 1.3 to 1.7 N. N being Newtons, in case you were wondering. See http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3023 for details. I attached the thread, so you can read it again. I hope if you'd forgive me saying so but when you write (or speak) to an engineering student, you should probably know that he may well know the meaning of [N]ewton, probabbly better than the acronyms CN and ID (standing for Chinese and Indonesian) you'd used assuming everyone knows them that way... although It's not hard to figure them out. According to the URL you'd told me about, I've been there. Regarding 49 vs 48, by Per Str.9amgren from Karlstad, Sweden. Per.Stromgren@ein.ericsson.se dated on 1999/10/16 14:35:18, it is another Proof that the 49G keyboard is twice as hard to press as the 48 keyboard, possibly leading to a repetitive stress injury !!! __________________________________________________ http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3023 (...) In order to base things on facts I set out to measure the downforce needed to press a key on the 48 vs the 49 (plus a 32 thrown in for comparison). This is the result: HP48SX, 9 years old, heavy use 1.4 N(*) HP32SII, 4 years old, light use 1.7 N(*) HP49G, brand new 3 N(*) So it's obvious that the 49 _is_ harder to use in a sense! ... I also tried to measure the throw of each key and found that the old rocker type keys (32 and 48 in this case) had the force knee (key click point) at about some 10-20% of the full throw, whereas the 49 keys can be pressed some 50 percent before hitting the knee (no pun intended). This also makes up the feeling of the keys: the new keyboard can be pressed without going into action, the old did not do that. I have found that the keyclick function is useful on the 49; I suppose its there because of the changed keyboard. Question to HP insighters: does the above findings reflect the design implied by user requirements or is this a just a cheaper solution than the old keyboard? Per Str.9amgren, (*)The figures are accurate to about +/- 15%. Method: put the calc on a ordinary 0-1kg kitchen scale, read the weight, press a key and read the weight when the key clicks. Subtract the two numbers and convert to force i Newtons. (...) __________________________________________________ If you need further assistance, ... ??? You must be joking ! You proved both my points, the fact of the key pressure difference needed for ea model and that your excellent new hp web site development don't meet its goal of providing accurate information, along with the fact that best web reference together with http://www.hpcalc.org/ and that you can be rude enough to answer a former loyal customer the way you did. Tks for nothing, Can't believe how HP is dealing with her customers. You're so lucky to have a job today. You're doing everything right not to deserve it. ----- Original Message ----- pressure. The only reference that I could find to the differances between the CN and the ID calculators concluded Key pressure on both calcs are about the same. 3 Newtons, to be specific. I am also aware that the HP 49G requires about 3 N of pressure to depress the key where the older HP Calculators required 1.3 to 1.7 N. N being Newtons, in case you were wondering. See http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3023 for details. If you need further assistance, please reply to this message. You may also find technical and troubleshooting information along with software updates, on our HP Customer Care Web site at: http://www.hp.com/ Kellie Customer Solutions support agent for the new HP * Our advice is strictly limited to the question(s) asked and is based on the information provided to us. Problems and solutions may depend on the nature of your system environment and various other parameters that are unknown to HP; therefore, HP cannot assume any responsibility or liability. Please be advised that technical information changes as new data becomes available, therefore, HP recommends that you regularly check our Customer Care Web site for possible updates at: http://www.hp.com/go/support HP shall not be liable for any direct, indirect, special, incidental or consequential damages in connection with the use of this information. Original Message Follows: &group=comp.sys.hp48 and read older postings (as many from the support department should), you'd probably notice the users do notice the difference on pressure needed for its keys (among other user's impressions), between both models, as well as I did. I couldn't find much help (technical and troubleshooting) information, nor recent software updates, on your HP Customer Care Web site at: http://www.hp.com/ _____ -----Original Message----- You mentioned it crashes frequently. Is there rhyme or reason in it crashing? Meaning does it happen when you do anything in particular or just random. If you need further assistance, please reply to this message. You may also find technical and troubleshooting information along with software updates, on our HP Customer Care Web site at: http://www.hp.com/ Amanda Customer Solutions support agent for the new HP ... _____ Original Message Follows: ... Although this service is provided as a means of technical support for our customers, we appreciate any feedback about our company's products and services. proper individuals. We value your comments. I'm forwarding your question about your HP Calculator to the appropriate group. If your ... Alex Customer Solutions support agent for the new HP ... _____ Original Message Follows: ... As a HP freak, I've been using HP calculators for more than 15 years now. A year ago a friend of mine brought me from Atlanta, Georgia the latest state-of-the-art HP 49G. Although I disliked its design, it is a great machine. Even though it crashes frequently, it still is a good equipment. I hope the management won't close the Calculators department ACO (along the Handhelds area), as I'd heard. I believe the Indonesian version of the 49G I've got, has a much harder pressure needed for its keys than the Chinese recent release, which I also regret haven't bought inst ==== Subject: SysRpl bicycle speedometer?? I already posted this once, but I didn't get an answer. The program works fine except that the maximum speed is 5.6 revolution to second(that mean ~44Km/h). I would appreciate it if someone could help me to achieve 60Km/s ~7.7Hz. 0 STIME TICKS DO DO 1 SRECV DROP2 TICKS DUP ROT - B->R 64290.816 SWAP / SWAP + Km/h. + 3 DISP 'j' INCR DROP UNTIL KEY END UNTIL 13 == END Tal ==== Subject: Re: SysRpl bicycle speedometer?? How about adding the and Km/h from a local variable and also the 64290.816, say b, k and r Is it faster then? Km/h 64290.816 -> b k r << 0 STIME TICKS DO DO 1 SRECV DROP2 TICKS DUP ROT - B->R b r ROT / + k + 3 DISP 'j' INCR DROP UNTIL KEY END UNTIL 13 == END >> Also since you have 'j INCR DROP can you transform it into a FOR 'j' ... NEXT -loop where KEY would exit by STOring MAXR to 'j' IF KEY 13 == THEN MAXR 'j' STO END So it becomes: Km/h 64290.816 -> b k r << 0 STIME TICKS 1 1E12 FOR j 1 SRECV DROP2 TICKS DUP ROT - B->R b r ROT / + k + 3 DISP IF KEY 13 == THEN MAXR 'j' STO END NEXT >> One more: Is 'j' Integer, real, or binary? real is faster than integer. I would change everything to reals: Km/h 64290.816 -> b k r << 0. STIME TICKS 1. 1.E12 FOR j 1. SRECV DROP2 TICKS DUP ROT - B->R b r ROT / + k + 3. DISP IF KEY 13. == THEN MAXR 'j' STO END NEXT >> AND I have even more ideas after you have tested the combinations of these. Veli-Pekka I already posted this once, but I didn't get an answer. > The program works fine except that the maximum > speed is 5.6 revolution to second(that mean ~44Km/h). I would appreciate it if someone could help me to achieve > 60Km/s ~7.7Hz. 0 STIME > TICKS > DO > DO > 1 SRECV > DROP2 > TICKS DUP ROT - B->R 64290.816 SWAP / > SWAP + Km/h. + > 3 DISP > 'j' INCR DROP > UNTIL > KEY > END > UNTIL > 13 == > END Tal ==== Subject: Re: SysRpl bicycle speedometer?? > How about adding the and Km/h from a local > variable and also the 64290.816, say b, k and r > Is it faster then? X > Also since you have 'j INCR DROP > can you transform it into a FOR 'j' ... NEXT -loop > where KEY would exit by STOring MAXR to 'j' > IF KEY 13 == THEN MAXR 'j' STO END X > One more: Is 'j' Integer, real, or binary? > real is faster than integer. X > AND I have even more ideas after you have tested > the combinations of these. ()/&##@£$? There are always several severe errors in my fast replies. We try another time with a SREPL stub for testing: << Km/h 64290.816 MAXR ->NUM -> b k r m << 2. FIX @ or anything else you like 0. STIME MEM DROP @ forced GC TICKS 1. 1.E12 FOR j 1. SRECV @ remove the quotas for real work DROP2 TICKS DUP ROT - B->R b r ROT / + k + 3. DISP IF KEY THEN IF 13. == THEN m 'j' STO END END NEXT >> BYTES => # B85Ch 222.00 Veli-Pekka ==== Subject: Re: SysRpl bicycle speedometer?? > I would appreciate it if someone could help me to achieve > 60Km/s ~7.7Hz. Try EPO :-) -- ir. P.F.Geelhoed Delft University of Technology Laboratory for Aero & Hydrodynamics Leeghwaterstraat 21, 2628 CA Delft, The Netherlands +31-15-2786656 / +31-15-2782947 (fax) peter@dutw1479.wbmt.tudelft.nl ==== Subject: Hp48gx, Invalid Card Data Hp48gx - error Invalid Card Data I have this error when I use a Math-card in port1. When I use the same card in port2, there is no error. Any suggestion what is wrong?? ----Raffa---- ==== Subject: Re: Hp48gx, Invalid Card Data > Hp48gx - error Invalid Card Data > I have this error when I use a Math-card in port1. > When I use the same card in port2, there is no error. Any suggestion what is wrong?? Is this card a bigger-than-128k card? If yes, then you *must* use it in port 2. -- Erwann ABALEA - RSA PGP Key ID: 0x2D0EABD5 ----- Computers can never replace human stupidity. ==== Subject: Re: Hp48gx, Invalid Card Data > Hp48gx - error Invalid Card Data >I have this error when I use a Math-card in port1. >When I use the same card in port2, there is no error. Any suggestion what is wrong?? Is this card a bigger-than-128k card? If yes, then you *must* use it in > port 2. -- > Erwann ABALEA - RSA PGP Key ID: 0x2D0EABD5 > ----- > Computers can never replace human stupidity. No, the card is not bigger than 128 card. ----Raffa---- ==== Subject: Re: Hp48gx, Invalid Card Data Perhaps you should use PortINIT command PINIT and for clarity: not physically bigger, VPN >Hp48gx - error Invalid Card Data >> I have this error when I use a Math-card in port1. >> When I use the same card in port2, there is no error. Any suggestion what is wrong?? Is this card a bigger-than-128k card? If yes, then you *must* use it in >port 2. -- >Erwann ABALEA - RSA PGP Key ID: 0x2D0EABD5 >----- >Computers can never replace human stupidity. No, the card is not bigger than 128 card. > ----Raffa---- ==== Subject: Re: Hp48gx, Invalid Card Data > Perhaps you should use PortINIT command PINIT > and for clarity: not physically bigger, > VPN > No, the card is not bigger than 128 card. >----Raffa---- ----Raffa---- ==== Subject: Re: Hp48gx, Invalid Card Data > 1) LS2 NXT PINIT 2) With the card in slot 2 (where it's working ok, isn't it?) press LS2 and then PORT. If you see only ports 0 and 2, the card is 128Kb. Each new port you see, add 128Kb more. Raul ==== Subject: Re: Hp48gx, Invalid Card Data 1) LS2 NXT PINIT 2) With the card in slot 2 (where it's working ok, isn't it?) press LS2 and > then PORT. If you see only ports 0 and 2, the card is 128Kb. Each new port > you see, add 128Kb more. Raul 1) Have tried this, but dident work. Still no card in port 1. Only in port 2. 2) I have put my card in port 2, and I see only port 0 and 2. So my card is 128K Why cant I use this in port 1. 3) My manual for the cards says that I can use both ports for the cards and that I can use both cards at the same time. ----Raffa---- ==== Subject: Re: Hp48gx, Invalid Card Data > My manual for the cards says that I can use both ports for > the cards and that I can use both cards at the same time. This looks like new info -- that you have *two* cards; could it be that it is your *other* card that is causing the Invalid Card Data? Slide any write protect switches toward the center (if standard Epson cards with sliding shutters), to enable writing, then plug in and type PINIT. Do not plug > 128K into slot 1. Do not use any manual bank select card in slot 2. Replace any old card battery (read manual carefully first!) Also replace any old calc batteries, and watch out for GRiD brand card, if any (what brand is each card, anyway?) Good luck! . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== Subject: Re: Hp48gx, Invalid Card Data <3D9B0A4A.208AC305@hotmail.com> <3D9B1B11.1C7B4BEF@hotmail.com> <3D9B465A.9FF77D58@hotmail.com 1) Have tried this, but dident work. > Still no card in port 1. Only in port 2. 2) I have put my card in port 2, and I see only port 0 and 2. > So my card is 128K > Why cant I use this in port 1. 3) My manual for the cards says that I can use both ports for > the cards and that I can use both cards at the same time. Could it be possible that this card is designed to work only on an HP48SX? If it's a non-HP card, it may be possible. -- Erwann ABALEA - RSA PGP Key ID: 0x2D0EABD5 ----- TK> A la rentr.8ee proposer un seul forum jeux vid.8eo mod.8er.8e Si c'est le cas je sollicite un droit de regard sur le travail des mod.8erateurs, avec d'autres joueurs volontaires. -+- Spip in Guide du Neuneu Usenet - Mod.8erons les mod.8erateurs -- ==== Subject: Re: Hp48gx, Invalid Card Data 1) Have tried this, but dident work. > Still no card in port 1. Only in port 2. When executing PINIT, you see nothing... If the card doesn't work, sorry: remember VPN said perhaps you should use... > 2) I have put my card in port 2, and I see only port 0 and 2. > So my card is 128K > Why cant I use this in port 1. Can you install a different card in slot1 for being sure this slot is ok? > 3) My manual for the cards says that I can use both ports for > the cards and that I can use both cards at the same time. I'm afraid that can't hepl more... Raul ==== Subject: New to HP49 I just got my first HP, an HP49G. I've some questions: 1. How can I see the Demo? I run it once an can not find it again. 2. How can I find my ROM version? 3. Where can I find a good manual? ==== Subject: Re: New to HP49 > I just got my first HP, an HP49G. > I've some questions: > 1. How can I see the Demo? I run it once an can not find it again. Use Filer to search it in your port 2 = The Flash Memory > 2. How can I find my ROM version? VERSION > 3. Where can I find a good manual? http://www.engineering.usu.edu/cee/faculty/gurro/myBooks.htm > You're welcome! VPN ==== Subject: HP48 for sale Good morning everyone. Sorry for this off topic post, but I'm not certain where else to post this. I have an HP48-GX, barely used, along with several programming manuals and the HP interconnect cable to connect to a serial port. I have no real need for this, and would like to sell it to someone that might appreciate and use it. (I used to live off an HP-41cv, and when it broke, and the upgrade price to a 48 was cheaper than the repair...) It looks as if street price is around 130-150? Cheaper? Anyone want to make me an offer? ==== Subject: Re: [HP 200LX] Did you guys see this. >For comparison, in Mathematica (running on a 500MHz Windows2000 machine): >In[1]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,16}, {j,16}]]; >In[2]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] >Out[2]= 0. Second >In[3]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,64}, {j,64}]]; >In[4]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] >Out[4]= 0. Second >In[5]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,256}, {j,256}]]; >In[6]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] >Out[6]= 0.181 Second >In[7]:= mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,1000}, {j,1000}]]; >In[8]:= Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] >Out[8]= 6.89 Second Do you know what kind of algorithm is used? These timings > are very good. I would guess modular algorithms... Doesn't seem like it... LUDecomposition, Inverse, RowReduce and Det use Gaussian elimination with partial pivoting. Of course, it also depends on the internal arithmetic implementation to some extent. -- Bhuvanesh ==== Subject: Re: [HP 200LX] Did you guys see this. >>Do you know what kind of algorithm is used? These timings >>are very good. I would guess modular algorithms... > Doesn't seem like it... LUDecomposition, Inverse, RowReduce and Det use Gaussian elimination > with partial pivoting. Of course, it also depends on the internal arithmetic implementation > to some extent. Gauss is O(N^3) assuming you have constant size coefficients which is not the case here. Even if you assume that the best algorithms are used for arithmetic, the size of a multiplication of p bits time p bits is O(p ln(p)) using FFT and here the size of the coeff increase linearly (p=cst*N), we should expect O(N^4*ln(N)) timings, you give timings 6.9 s for N=1000 and 0.181s for N=256 which correspond to less than O(N^3). Therefore there must be some other algorithm involved (but which?) or there is a misunderstanding on the initial problem which was to compute all coeffs of the exact inverse of a matrix with random integer coefficients in a range (-9..9 on calcs, I used -99.99 on xcas) (note that I don't understand mathematica weierd notation) ==== Subject: Re: [HP 200LX] Did you guys see this. > Gauss is O(N^3) assuming you have constant size coefficients which > is not the case here. Even if you assume that the best algorithms > are used for arithmetic, the size of a multiplication of p bits time > p bits is O(p ln(p)) using FFT and here the size of the coeff increase > linearly (p=cst*N), we should expect O(N^4*ln(N)) timings, you give > timings 6.9 s for N=1000 and 0.181s for N=256 which correspond > to less than O(N^3). Therefore there must be some other algorithm > involved (but which?) This is just what I got from the implementation notes section of the help browser: http://documents.wolfram.com/v4/index253.html > or there is a misunderstanding on the > initial problem which was to compute all coeffs of the exact inverse > of a matrix with random integer coefficients in a range > (-9..9 on calcs, I used -99.99 on xcas) > (note that I don't understand mathematica weierd notation) I used approximate random integer coefficients in the range -9...9. That's what mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,n}, {j,n}]]; computes. I used Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] since I was only interested in the timing, not the actual result. -- Bhuvanesh ==== Subject: Re: [HP 200LX] Did you guys see this. I used approximate random integer coefficients in the range -9...9. > That's what > mat = N[Table[Random[Integer,{-9,9}], {i,n}, {j,n}]]; > computes. I used Timing[Inverse[mat]][[1]] since I was only interested > in the timing, not the actual result. Then I understand much better mma timings. We all used exact random integers which is much slower, I guess you can not get the inverse of a 1000x1000 matrix with exact coeffs. ==== Subject: Urroz errata? Help with substitution I'm trying to do trig substition in integration and am trying to work the example on page 35 of Urroz's volume 2. Where you have the integral x/sqroot(1-x^2) Lower limit 0 Upper limit2 I follow the directions exactly and yet don't get the same answer? The directions are: Type the integral onto the stack, put u=1-x^2 onto the stack then put u onto the stack click on Alg then solve and it is supposed to give you {x=-sqroot(-(u-1)) x=sqroot(-(u-1))} I get u=-(x^2-1)?? What is wrong? ce ==== Subject: Re: Urroz errata? Help with substitution c_elber schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I'm trying to do trig substition in integration and am trying to work the > example on page 35 of Urroz's volume 2. Unfortunately I don't have the book. Couldn't find it in any bookstore yet;-(. > Where you have the integral x/sqroot(1-x^2) Lower limit 0 Upper limit2 I follow the directions exactly and yet don't get the same answer? The > directions are: > Type the integral onto the stack, put u=1-x^2 onto the stack then put u onto > the stack click on Alg then solve and it is supposed to give you > {x=-sqroot(-(u-1)) x=sqroot(-(u-1))} I get u=-(x^2-1)?? What is wrong? Are you sure you doing the example right? If you put u=1-x^2 on the stack and solve for u you will get of course u=-(x^2-1). If you want to do the integral (with the limits) on your calc do the following: 1) put the lower limit on the stack 2) put the upper limit on the stack 3) put the integral on the stack 4) put the integral variable on the stack 5) use the integrate sign to do the integral 0 2 'x/sqrt(1-x^2)' 'x' [R-SHIFT]-[TAN] The calc will ask you to change to complex mode btw. you should get 1-i*sqrt(3) If you want to do the integral symbolicaly: 1) put the integral on the stack 2) put the integral variable on the stack (if x is the int. var. you don't have to do this) 3) use 'risch' so get the solution (or INTVX if x is the int. var.) 'x/sqrt(1-x^2)' 'x' RISCH or 'x/sqrt(1-x^2)' INTVX and you should get -sqrt(-(x^2-1)) Again, I don't have the book from Urroz. And I didn't found an errata list on Urroz Website. So chances are big I'm missing here something completely. But at least you should now be able to integrate properly. BTW for some of the task above the equationwriter EQW is the proper tool to use. Roman > ce ==== Subject: Re: Urroz errata? Help with substitution I know how to integrate and use Risch for symbolic integration. I was trying to use trig substitution to solve it step by step. Unfortunately the Urroz book that shows how to do this appears to be wrong. On page 35 of volume 2 he says Suppose that you want to calculate the integral x/sqroot(1-x^2) lower limit 0, upper limit 2 Let's type the integral in the equation writer (then he gives that key sequence). We suggest using the change of variable u=1-X^2. We need find out how to replace x in terms of u, so enter the expression 'u=1-x^2' in the stack (key sequence again). and isolate x by using right shift ' alpha left shift u right shift alg solve The result is the list {'x=-sqroot(-(u-1))' 'x=sqroot-(u-1)'} Press right shift eval right arrow del to keep only the result. Next, press right shift alg subst to replace the latter result in the integral but I can't get to the correct list. The Urroz books are only sold online and at some very specialized stores to the best of my knowledge. To get them you have to order them through Booksurge.com or greatunpublished.com. I highly recommend booksurge they were GREAT! Carmen ==== Subject: Re: Urroz errata? Help with substitution c_elber schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I know how to integrate and use Risch for symbolic integration. I was trying > to use trig substitution to solve it step by step. Unfortunately the Urroz > book that shows how to do this appears to be wrong. On page 35 of volume 2 he says > Suppose that you want to calculate the integral > x/sqroot(1-x^2) lower limit 0, upper limit 2 Let's type the integral in the equation writer (then he gives that key > sequence). We suggest using the change of variable u=1-X^2. We need find out how to > replace x in terms of u, so enter the expression 'u=1-x^2' in the stack (key > sequence again). and isolate x by using right shift ' alpha left shift u right shift alg > solve OK. You want to solve for x in the expression 'u=1-x^2'. Right? Well my HP49G (with the rom version 1.19-6) seems to fail in doing so. The result should obviously be { 'x=sqrt(1-u)', 'x=-sqrt(1-u)'}. You can confirm this by doing by hand. I think this is a bug in the CAS. One that wasn't there in earlier rom versions probably. BTW what rom version are you using? Roman > The result is the list > {'x=-sqroot(-(u-1))' 'x=sqroot-(u-1)'} Press right shift eval right arrow del to keep only the result. Next, press > right shift alg subst to replace the latter result in the integral but I > can't get to the correct list. The Urroz books are only sold online and at some very specialized stores to > the best of my knowledge. To get them you have to order them through > Booksurge.com or greatunpublished.com. I highly recommend booksurge they > were GREAT! > Carmen ==== Subject: Re: Urroz errata? Help with substitution > OK. You want to solve for x in the expression 'u=1-x^2'. Right? Well my HP49G (with the rom version 1.19-6) seems to fail in doing so. > The result should obviously be { 'x=sqrt(1-u)', 'x=-sqrt(1-u)'}. You can > confirm this by doing by hand. I think this is a bug in the CAS. One that wasn't there in earlier rom > versions probably. > BTW what rom version are you using? Roman > Roman; I am using 1.19-6. Carmen ==== Subject: truoble with linear solver... i was working with matrices, to solve linear system, and everything was o.k. , but then somehow the 49g started to bring strange results why? i had to reseet the system without Memory recovery now it is back to it selft,... why is this happening? im using rom 19-6!.... ==== Subject: HP-71 question Does anyone have a manual for the HP71 41 translator that they would sell, either the original or a photocopy? Can anyone post how to use the module to make the HP71 function as an HP41 calculator? Martin Eisenstein martin@eisenstein.com ==== Subject: Re: HP-71 question > Does anyone have a manual for the HP71 41 translator that they would > sell, either the original or a photocopy? Email me your mailing address, and I'll mail you a photocopy of the manual. When you get it, you can reimburse me for the postage (the photocopy is free). -Joe- Joseph K. Horn joehorn@jps.net ==== Subject: Bug in CAS? , in a post above someone (c_e) was trying to solve an example of G. Urroz Book. example: 'u=1-X^2' SOLVEX (The example is a bit different btw, but the problem lies here) Answer should be {'X=sqrt(1-u)','X=-sqrt(1-u)'} But HP49G gives { } Looks like a bug to me. The 49 should be able to solve this symbolicaly. Doesn't it? Can someone else confirm this behaviour and try it with some other (older) rom version. BTW my rom version is 1.19-6. Roman ==== Subject: Re: Bug in CAS? Try to be complex mode on... > , > in a post above someone (c_e) was trying to solve an example of G. Urroz > Book. example: > 'u=1-X^2' > SOLVEX (The example is a bit different btw, but the problem lies here) Answer should be {'X=sqrt(1-u)','X=-sqrt(1-u)'} > But HP49G gives { } Looks like a bug to me. The 49 should be able to solve this symbolicaly. > Doesn't it? > Can someone else confirm this behaviour and try it with some other (older) > rom version. BTW my rom version is 1.19-6. Roman ==== Subject: Re: Bug in CAS? Just tried it with rom 1.18 and 1.19-5 in the emulator. 1.19-5 doesnt solve the expr., gives the same wrong result as 1.19-6: { } 1.18 gives: {' X=sqrt(-(u-1))', 'X=-sqrt(-(u-1))'} Arrgh. 1.18 gives the right answer while 1.19-6 doesn't. So it's probably really a bug in the CAS. What about a new rom 1.19-7 (or even 1.2) to christmas? Roman ==== Subject: Re: Bug in CAS? > Just tried it with rom 1.18 and 1.19-5 in the emulator. 1.19-5 doesnt solve the expr., gives the same wrong result as 1.19-6: { } > 1.18 gives: {' X=sqrt(-(u-1))', 'X=-sqrt(-(u-1))'} Erable 3.2 also gives { }, but in complex mode it gives the solutions. Have you tried this way? Raul ==== Subject: Re: Bug in CAS? ...and, as X appears only once in the equation, then you can use the old ISOL for isolating it. Raul ==== Subject: HP48G AUR for download? . Is AUR available for free download somewhere? (Like 49G's one, for example?) I haven't succeded to find it on hpcalc.org.. :( -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== Subject: TI89 chokes, how about HP? Hi: Here's an interesting problem I had last night: The formula for the input impedance of a transmission line is: Zin(l)=Zo*(Zl+i*Zo*tan(b*l))/(Zo+i*Zl*tan(b*l)) where l is the line length, Zo is the characteristic impedance (real), Zl is the load impedance (complex), and b is a real constant. I defined this as a function, actually, with b*l as the argument of the function, so it is zin(bl). With Zo=50 and Zl=200-i100, nSolve(imag(zin(2pi*x))=0,x)|x>0 and x<.25 fails to give a correct result. Solve also fails, yielding true. But when I do it in two pieces: imag(zin(2pi*x)) then nSolve(ans(1)=0, x)|x>0 and x<.25 yields the correct value of 0.23349... The function can be re-written in terms of complex exponentials, to avoid the singularities when bl=pi/2 and so on, but the TI still can't solve it unless I first evaluate the imaginary component and pass it to Solve. Comments appreciated. Good day! -- ____________________________________ Christopher R. Carlen Principal Laser/Optical Technologist Sandia National Laboratories CA USA crcarle@sandia.gov ==== Subject: Re: TI89 chokes, how about HP? > Zin(l)=Zo*(Zl+i*Zo*tan(b*l))/(Zo+i*Zl*tan(b*l)) [...] > I defined this as a function, actually, with b*l as the argument of the > function, so it is zin(bl). So we have 'Zin(bl)=Zo*(Zl+i*Zo*tan(bl))/(Zo+i*Zl*tan(bl))', where i is the complex number 'SQRT(-1)'. > With Zo=50 and Zl=200-i100, > nSolve(imag(zin(2pi*x))=0,x)|x>0 and x<.25 > fails to give a correct result. Yes, it yields 1.E-38. > The function can be re-written in terms of complex exponentials, to > avoid the singularities when bl=pi/2 and so on, but the TI still can't > solve it unless I first evaluate the imaginary component and pass it to > Solve. Well, since the HP49G finds 100 exact solutions between 0 and 25 in radians mode, I assume you mean this to be solved in degrees mode. The HP49G can solve this equation symbolically - interesting enough the TI89 can't solve this exact, but only find some numeric solutions. This is one of the first times I've seen the HP solver beat the TI counterpart - interesting. To return to your question, this type of problem is solved like this in RPN mode: 'Zin(bl)=Zo*(Zl+i*Zo*tan(bl))/(Zo+i*Zl*tan(bl))' DEFINE (or DEF, if You prefer) 50 'Zo' STO '200-i*100' 'Zl' STO 'X>0' ASSUME DROP 'X<25*pi/180' (to be able to solve the equation in RAD mode, which is the only mode the HP49G can use SOLVE in) ASSUME DROP '2*pi*X' Zin IM 'X' SOLVE -> 'X=ATAN((19+SQRT(377))/4)/(2*pi)' (numeric mode) EVAL -> 'X=0.233487974945' If you, on the other hand, would like to solve it with one algebraic expression, you can enter this: Preparation, as on the TI89: 'Zin(bl)=Zo*(Zl+i*Zo*tan(bl))/(Zo+i*Zl*tan(bl))' DEFINE (or DEF, if You prefer) 50 'Zo' STO '200-i*100' 'Zl' STO { X>0' 'X<25*pi/180'} ASSUME «SOLVE(IM(Zin(2*pi*X)),X)« -> 'X=ATAN((19+SQRT(377))/4)/(2*pi)' Steen ==== Subject: Re: TI89 chokes, how about HP? >>Zin(l)=Zo*(Zl+i*Zo*tan(b*l))/(Zo+i*Zl*tan(b*l)) [...] > >>I defined this as a function, actually, with b*l as the argument of the >>function, so it is zin(bl). > So we have 'Zin(bl)=Zo*(Zl+i*Zo*tan(bl))/(Zo+i*Zl*tan(bl))', where i is the > complex number 'SQRT(-1)'. >>With Zo=50 and Zl=200-i100, >>nSolve(imag(zin(2pi*x))=0,x)|x>0 and x<.25 >>fails to give a correct result. Note, x < 0.25, not 25. -- ____________________________________ Christopher R. Carlen Principal Laser/Optical Technologist Sandia National Laboratories CA USA crcarle@sandia.gov ==== Subject: Re: TI89 chokes, how about HP? > Note, x < 0.25, not 25. Yes, sorry. Same procedure as before - the HP49G solves it fine. Steen ==== Subject: Invalid Card Data on HP49G after reset Hi! I get the message Invalid Card Data after I reset my HP49G. I just got it when I updated to ROM 1.19-6b. Do I have to worry here? Anders ==== Subject: Re: Invalid Card Data on HP49G after reset PINIT > Hi! I get the message Invalid Card Data after I reset my HP49G. I just got > it when I updated to ROM 1.19-6b. > Do I have to worry here? Anders > ==== Subject: transmit datas from HP49 to PC Hallo. I'd like to know of there's a possibility to transmit Datas from a Hp49G to a PC. If it's possible which PC-programm can I use? Ingo ==== Subject: Re: transmit datas from HP49 to PC >Hallo. I'd like to know of there's a possibility to transmit Datas from a >Hp49G to a PC. If it's possible which PC-programm can I use? Isn't there a tool on the HP web site? A bientot Paul -- Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth) What happens if you have lead in your pants as well as lead in your pencil? ==== Subject: How does it work? I'm sure It's possible to see my function as a graph but I don't know how? Anyone with a hint? greetings, ingo ==== Subject: System FONT7? I'm running the MetaKernal 2.30 on a 48GX and wanted to know if System Font7 exists for the 48GX. It is on my 49G and I wanted to get that font for my Doug ==== Subject: Re: System FONT7? You can do the following on your HP49 (or in Emu48): FONT7 ->S2, then copy this file to your HP48 with MK installed and put it on stack, doing ASM, it will return FONT7 from HP49... Paulo Pinheiro P.S. I think this works too with FONT7 ->H in HP49 and then with this object in HP48 do H-> but didn't try it, the upper way is good. > I'm running the MetaKernal 2.30 on a 48GX and wanted to know if System Font7 > exists for the 48GX. It is on my 49G and I wanted to get that font for my Doug ==== Subject: Re: System FONT7? > I'm running the MetaKernal 2.30 on a 48GX and wanted to know if System Font7 > exists for the 48GX. It is on my 49G and I wanted to get that font for my Doug This size is the one I ever use (almost). In the MK menu, you can see a hole between FONT8 and FONT6 because there is no room for it in the 128kb cards. But you can get fonts of several sizes in hpcalc and install them in memory. (The FONT7 is set for my STARTUP program) I can email you my font if you want... Raul ==== Subject: Re: System FONT7? you could also try RayFnt7, which I created for the 49G because the built-in system font 7 is hardly readable. On www.hpcalc.org, of course Raymond > I'm running the MetaKernal 2.30 on a 48GX and wanted to know if System > Font7 >exists for the 48GX. It is on my 49G and I wanted to get that font for my Doug This size is the one I ever use (almost). > In the MK menu, you can see a hole between FONT8 and FONT6 because there > is no room for it in the 128kb cards. But you can get fonts of several sizes > in hpcalc and install them in memory. (The FONT7 is set for my STARTUP > program) > I can email you my font if you want... Raul ==== Subject: Re: System FONT7? you could also try RayFnt7, I edited most of the characters because that, but be sure I'll give a chance to your font Raul ==== Subject: Remove the hp49G demo Hi I just tried to remove the hp49g demo from my calculator, by following the instructions from hpcalc.org, but I can't remove it! I do as follows: 1) Type :2:1234 2) hit ENTER 3) type DETACH 4) hit ENTER 5) Type PURGE and then I get 2 few arguments, cause when I git enter after writing DETACH there's nothing on the stach. But if I go into port :2, then I still see 1234. How can I remove it completly? Anders ==== Subject: Re: Remove the hp49G demo I use the Filer to remove any unwanted libs VPN > Hi I just tried to remove the hp49g demo from my calculator, by following > the instructions from hpcalc.org, but I can't remove it! I do as follows: 1) > Type > :2:1234 > 2) > hit > ENTER > 3) > type > DETACH > 4) > hit > ENTER > 5) > Type > PURGE and then I get 2 few arguments, cause when I git enter after writing > DETACH there's nothing on the stach. But if I go into port :2, then I > still see 1234. How can I remove it completly? Anders > ==== Subject: Re: Remove the hp49G demo Ever thought about what argument PURGE would need? Raymond Hint: At point 2. hit ENTER twice... > Hi I just tried to remove the hp49g demo from my calculator, by following > the instructions from hpcalc.org, but I can't remove it! I do as follows: 1) > Type > :2:1234 > 2) > hit > ENTER > 3) > type > DETACH > 4) > hit > ENTER > 5) > Type > PURGE and then I get 2 few arguments, cause when I git enter after writing > DETACH there's nothing on the stach. But if I go into port :2, then I > still see 1234. How can I remove it completly? Anders > ==== Subject: Re: Black hp49 Well, I don't really need a picture > I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of one do they? ==== Subject: Re: Black hp49 Salut, CdB Loan a digital camera from your company take the picture and publish it on your web-site where we can admire it's beauty. VPN > Well, I don't really need a picture >I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of one do they? ==== Subject: Re: Black hp49 Remember, beauty is more than skin deep! Steve > Salut, CdB > Loan a digital camera from your company > take the picture and publish it on your web-site > where we can admire it's beauty. > VPN >Well, I don't really need a picture >I don't suppose anyone has any pictures of one do they? ==== Subject: HP48G AUR for download? Here is: (AUR 48G series) http://www.hp.com/cposupport/manindex/hp48gcalcu20676_sp_man.html -Dante. ==== Subject: Re: HP48G AUR for download? > Here is: (AUR 48G series) > http://www.hp.com/cposupport/manindex/hp48gcalcu20676_sp_man.html Hm. It seems that there is no AUR there -- only UR and QuickStart. And only in Spanish and Portugese.. -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== Subject: Seeking address Hi I used to have an address for Joe Horn's list of cables but either I've recorded it incorrectly or it has changed. Can someone give me the correct address? ==== Subject: Cable Table simply use http://www.holyjoe.org/cable.htm Raymond Colin Croft schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Hi I used to have an address for Joe Horn's list of cables but either I've > recorded it incorrectly or it has changed. Can someone give me the > correct address? > ==== Subject: Re: Cable Table simply use http://www.holyjoe.org/cable.htm Raymond Colin Croft schrieb im Newsbeitrag > >>Hi >>I used to have an address for Joe Horn's list of cables but either I've >>recorded it incorrectly or it has changed. Can someone give me the >>correct address? ==== Subject: Re: Cable Table >simply use http://www.holyjoe.org/cable.htm You are actually correct: it *should* be holyjoe.net, but I lost control of that domain when my hosting company (who resgistered it for me) went out of business. I'm currently trying to wrestle control of it back from GoDaddy.com who has it on their WHOIS list as registered to ME with MY complete address... but I'm having trouble convincing them that I am me. (I am I?) (Don Quixote?) Meanwhile, please use the HolyJoe.ORG alternative, which works just fine. In case you haven't seen it, PLEASE check out the Crummy Rubber Keys page at http://holyjoe.org/HP49.htm#crummy But I digress. -Joe- joehorn@jps.net ==== Subject: Re: Cable Table My 49G keys are perfect after three years of abusive use. Or should we say two years and one years because of the usage patterns VPN PS: Painted afterwards indeed. My 5MHz 49G has a red [ON] blue [RS] green [LS] and a gray [ALPHA] When I get my hands on a digicamera, I'll send a picture to you to be put to your web-page. >> simply use http://www.holyjoe.org/cable.htm > You are actually correct: it *should* be holyjoe.net, but > I lost control of that domain when my hosting company (who > resgistered it for me) went out of business. I'm currently > trying to wrestle control of it back from GoDaddy.com who > has it on their WHOIS list as registered to ME with MY > complete address... but I'm having trouble convincing them > that I am me. (I am I?) (Don Quixote?) Meanwhile, please use the HolyJoe.ORG alternative, which > works just fine. In case you haven't seen it, PLEASE check out the Crummy > Rubber Keys page at http://holyjoe.org/HP49.htm#crummy > But I digress. -Joe- > joehorn@jps.net ==== Subject: limit and deriv not work or bad syntax Cann't seem to get limit and derivative to work. I've tried doing the equations in the advanced users guide DERIV(2*X^2*Y+3*Y^2*Z+Z*X, [X,Y,Z]), even tried some from the users guide but none work. I get Invalid Syntax. - Jamie ==== Subject: Re: limit and deriv not work or bad syntax Hi ! try DERIV(2*X^2*Y+3*Y^2*Z+Z*X, {X,Y,Z} ) { } instead of [ ] Bernd Jamie Bohr schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Cann't seem to get limit and derivative to work. I've tried doing the > equations in the advanced users guide DERIV(2*X^2*Y+3*Y^2*Z+Z*X, [X,Y,Z]), > even tried some from the users guide but none work. I get Invalid Syntax. > - Jamie ==== Subject: Re: limit and deriv not work or bad syntax But they both work for me when I use the RPN-stack ??? VPN > Hi ! try > DERIV(2*X^2*Y+3*Y^2*Z+Z*X, {X,Y,Z} ) { } instead of [ ] Bernd Jamie Bohr schrieb im Newsbeitrag >Cann't seem to get limit and derivative to work. I've tried doing the >equations in the advanced users guide DERIV(2*X^2*Y+3*Y^2*Z+Z*X, [X,Y,Z]), >even tried some from the users guide but none work. I get Invalid > Syntax. > - Jamie > > ==== Subject: HP48G Port 1 connectors 31 and 32 ? Hi! What for are the 31 and 32 pins in HP48 Card Slot 1? They are connected to the same signals as A17 and A18 of ROM, but Slot 1 can allegedly contain only 128kiB memory. That is, it uses only A0-A16. Best wishes, Tiismus ==== Subject: Re: HP48G Port 1 connectors 31 and 32 ? > What for are the #31 and #32 pins in HP48 Card Slot 1? [same in S/G] > They are connected to the same signals as A17 and A18 of ROM, > but Slot 1 can allegedly contain only 128kiB memory. > That is, it uses only A0-A16 Where's Arnett these days? is also quoted some more below (tangentially relevant to your Q) -[]- . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== Subject: Re: HP48G Port 1 connectors 31 and 32 ? John H Meyers :: >>What for are the #31 and #32 pins in HP48 Card Slot 1? [same in S/G] >>They are connected to the same signals as A17 and A18 of ROM, >>but Slot 1 can allegedly contain only 128kiB memory. >>That is, it uses only A0-A16 > Where's Arnett these days? is also quoted some more below (tangentially relevant to your Q) more. It's content is not as interesting as couple of years ago :( hpcalc.org as you. But the question remains: what for are the contacts #31 and #32 on the card slot 1 of HP48G? I think that they are not used to drive overhead LCD and it is clear that HP48 OS does not allow to use Tiismus ==== Subject: Re: HP48G Port 1 connectors 31 and 32 ? > hpcalc.org as you. But the question remains: what for are the contacts > #31 and #32 on the card slot 1 of HP48G? I think that they are not used > to drive overhead LCD and it is clear that HP48 OS does not allow to use Hi: Those pins are the yorke A17 and NA18, the same that go to the similarly(sp?) named pins on the internal Ram. They are NOT the same as in port 2. There was once a post that said something about how those pins could be used, i think it was something like replacing the internal rom, with some special card. There is a lot more info on the hp hardware, search hpcalc for hardware, browse the misc folder, and while you're there get the schematic... Steve ==== Subject: Re: HP48G Port 1 connectors 31 and 32 ? >Those pins are the yorke A17 and NA18, the same that go to the >similarly(sp?) named pins on the internal Ram. They are NOT the same >as in port 2. There was once a post that said something about how >those pins could be used, i think it was something like replacing the >internal rom, with some special card. Could it be this one? : ...Another interesting post by Arnett : Also, I think this 2 year old post by you hits the nail on the head ;) : ------ --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== Subject: Re: HP48G Port 1 connectors 31 and 32 ? Hi: > Also, I think this 2 year old post by you hits the nail on the head ;) > : I used to know about this stuff huh? I just searched and guess what? the closest post to what i was talking about is by you: I still think that there was some card could use those lines, and take over the rom, or at least part of it, however i couldn't find it. Where's master when we need him? What about Cyrille? He might know if there was provision for such a card... Steve Sousa ==== Subject: Re: HP48G Port 1 connectors 31 and 32 ? This is just a guess, but if I remember right there are a couple of slot 1 pins that are wired for the 38g (?). Presumably, the same or a slightly modified PCB was used for the 38 (?) and 48. ==== Subject: Please help I get Error: Undefined Name when doing a dervx(x^2). The emumlator on my PC returns the right value but the calculator does not. I need this to work. It also looks bad when a TI89 can do it and a HP49G can not. - Jamie ==== Subject: Re: Please help Hi JC, Looks like you hit the nail on the head, it something to do with CAS. I think clearing flag 99 and 100 did it. I had to do a flag by flag comparison to the 49G on my PC. Jamie -----Original Message----- ==== Subject: What Mode Is Your HP49 In? What mode is your HP49 in? What ROM version are you running? What is the variable stored in 'VX'. Better yet, what are you flag settings. All of these things must be considered before you can say it isn't working. Many of the CAS commands don't work the way they should in ALG mode. Get OUT of ALG mode into RPN mode. Then try the same examples only using RPN. best wishes, J.C. Randerson ==== Subject: Re: Please help I was flags 3 and 105 that seem to be causing the problem. Some how flog 105 gets set to approx. instead of exact. Jamie > Hi JC, Looks like you hit the nail on the head, it something to do with CAS. I > think clearing flag 99 and 100 did it. I had to do a flag by flag comparison > to the 49G on my PC. Jamie -----Original Message----- ==== > Subject: What Mode Is Your HP49 In? What mode is your HP49 in? What ROM version are you running? What is the > variable stored in 'VX'. Better yet, what are you flag settings. All of > these things must be considered before you can say it isn't working. > Many of the CAS commands don't work the way they should in ALG mode. Get OUT > of ALG mode into RPN mode. Then try the same examples only using RPN. > best wishes, > J.C. Randerson ==== Subject: Re: Please help > I get Error: Undefined Name when doing a dervx(x^2). The emumlator on my > PC returns the right value but the calculator does not. I need this to > work. It also looks bad when a TI89 can do it and a HP49G can not. - Jamie Your default variable is probably 'X', rather than 'x', so that 'DERVX(x^2)', which takes derivatives with respect to the default variable, does not find an 'X' in your formula to work with. Try 'DERVX(X^2)', using capitals throughout. If that fails try holding ON and pressing the F3 key to reboot before trying again. ==== Subject: Re: Please help > I get Error: Undefined Name when doing a dervx(x^2). Are you writing it with capital letters, DERVX? Raul ==== Subject: Re: Please help Yes, I use the built in function name off the Calc/Deriv & Integ menu. I use the same steps on the PC version of the 49G and get the right answer. I have rebooted the calc. twice and reloaded the bios. So far I am at a loss as to why it does this. Jamie > I get Error: Undefined Name when doing a dervx(x^2). Are you writing it with capital letters, DERVX? Raul ==== Subject: Re: Please help DERVX(X^2) => X*2 ???? What is your problem? VERSION gives: 2: Version HP49-B Revision #1.19-6 1: Copyright HP 2001 RCLF gives 1: { # 60A00B8285054550h # 0h # 10305C280580E8h # 0h } Veli-Pekka - shaken & stirred > I get Error: Undefined Name when doing a dervx(x^2). The emumlator on my > PC returns the right value but the calculator does not. I need this to > work. It also looks bad when a TI89 can do it and a HP49G can not. - Jamie ==== Subject: Re: Please help Agreed, however my calculator returns Error: Undefined Name. I wanted to show that it, I, had a problem with even the simplest of derivatives. > DERVX(X^2) => X*2 > ???? > What is your problem? VERSION gives: > 2: Version HP49-B > Revision #1.19-6 > 1: Copyright HP 2001 RCLF gives > 1: { # 60A00B8285054550h # 0h > # 10305C280580E8h # 0h } Veli-Pekka - shaken & stirred > I get Error: Undefined Name when doing a dervx(x^2). The emumlator on > my >PC returns the right value but the calculator does not. I need this to >work. It also looks bad when a TI89 can do it and a HP49G can not. - Jamie > > ==== Subject: XMODEM For 48GX? What program on the PC do you use to be able to send files back and forth to the 48GX via XMODEM? I'm trying HyperTerminal but am not getting it to work correctly. Doug ==== Subject: Re: XMODEM For 48GX? > What program on the PC do you use to be able to send files back and forth to > the 48GX via XMODEM? I'm trying HyperTerminal but am not getting it to work > correctly. I use Emu48 and all works fine between the virtual and the real calculators. Raul ==== Subject: Re: XMODEM For 48GX? I'm running EMU 1.30, how do you send files from the emulator to the real calc? I can't seem to find out how. Doug > What program on the PC do you use to be able to send files back and forth > to >the 48GX via XMODEM? I'm trying HyperTerminal but am not getting it to > work >correctly. > I use Emu48 and all works fine between the virtual and the real calculators. Raul ==== Subject: Re: XMODEM For 48GX? > I'm running EMU 1.30, how do you send files from the emulator to the real > calc? I can't seem to find out how. Doug This is my STARTSEND program: Ç -40 CF CLLCD SWAP + 2 DISP2 ->T Ç Enviando... 4 DISP2 'T' XSEND CLOSEIO -40 SF È È (Change Enviando for Sending if you prefer) When you want send any object, look for it into the MK Filer and press SEND, in the 2nd page menu: it will be sent with XMODEM Does this help? Raul ==== Subject: Re: XMODEM For 48GX? I entered this program into the STARTSEND variable and it doesn't seem to work. It places some of the items in that program on the stack and doesn't complete. Doug > I'm running EMU 1.30, how do you send files from the emulator to the real >calc? I can't seem to find out how. Doug > This is my STARTSEND program: Ç -40 CF CLLCD > SWAP + 2 DISP2 ->T > Ç Enviando... > 4 DISP2 'T' XSEND > CLOSEIO -40 SF > È > È (Change Enviando for Sending if you prefer) When you want send any object, look for it into the MK Filer and press SEND, > in the 2nd page menu: it will be sent with XMODEM > Does this help? Raul ==== Subject: Re: XMODEM For 48GX? > I entered this program into the STARTSEND variable and it doesn't seem to > work. It places some of the items in that program on the stack and doesn't > complete. Be sure in your calculator there is one space between -> and T... Sorry for the transcription mistake. Raul ==== Subject: Re: XMODEM For 48GX? Nevermind, I figured it out :) Doug > I'm running EMU 1.30, how do you send files from the emulator to the real > calc? I can't seem to find out how. Doug >What program on the PC do you use to be able to send files back and > forth >to >> the 48GX via XMODEM? I'm trying HyperTerminal but am not getting it to >work >> correctly. > I use Emu48 and all works fine between the virtual and the real > calculators. Raul > > ==== Subject: MK 2.30 for GX Is it just me or does the into screen to the MetaKernal 2.30 say 2.29? I'm guessing they just didn't update this screen. Someone please correct me here. Doug ==== Subject: Re: MK 2.30 for GX No, it isn't just you. I think JYA (one of the authors of MK) once said it had something to do with copyrights... (once MK wasn't free, but the authors had some dispute about payments with the company which sold their MKcards) Caspar Douglas Rohm schreef in bericht > Is it just me or does the into screen to the MetaKernal 2.30 say 2.29? > I'm guessing they just didn't update this screen. Someone please correct me > here. Doug ==== Subject: Re: MK 2.30 for GX Sorry, I mean Intro Screen, not into screen. > Is it just me or does the into screen to the MetaKernal 2.30 say 2.29? > I'm guessing they just didn't update this screen. Someone please correct me > here. Doug ==== Subject: Would anyone like to port a program for me? I would like the following hp48 programs to be ported to the hp49g http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1176 http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1181 http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1969 I would greatly appreciate it if someone would do this for me. I know this is a lot to do, so if anyone is willing, I really just want that first one to be ported. again i would greatly appreciate this. -Tareq Dowla ==== Subject: Re: Would anyone like to port a program for me? > I would like the following hp48 programs to be ported to the hp49g > http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1176 Power Plot by Wallace See: http://leviathan.orblivion.com/hp48/software/ppl49_02.zip [r->] [OFF] . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== Subject: Re: [OT] Brain software update > Don't you think you're off topic?! The primary topic of all education, which is what all sharing of information is for, is to develop the whole of life, both for individuals, at one end of focus of the scale, and of the whole of humanity at the other; if an educator does not keep this in mind, becoming so lost in the details that (s)he forgets to connect them to what we're learning things for, then it's a baseless and useless education that we're dispensing, much as R. Buckminster Fuller has so well pointed out. > to you it's TM - to me it's Jesus Christ Then you must have very little comprehension about at least one of these topics. Students following the instructions for one of these throughout their educational career are scoring in the top 1% of the general public student population; other people following the instructions are spending so much less on medical care that they can get cheaper health insurance for doing it -- and the list goes on and on. Try achieving that with anything that you can get from any church, from any religion, or from anything else available to anyone, anywhere on this planet. One of the things that made present human civilization possible was developing the knowledge of how to culture plants, how to grow vastly more on the same original land. It is equally as significant to know how to get much more out of your own nervous system -- more energy and intelligence, more creativity, finer health, and most of all, feeling finer, under all circumstances. If this isn't *the* topic of greatest importance to civilization, what is? -[]- . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== Subject: Re: [OT] Brain software update If this isn't *the* topic of greatest importance to civilization, > what is? > Embracing the love of God and transferring it to the world -- not contemplating our belly buttons and savoring our egos. Let's get back to the news group at hand. Gregory Warsewicz Savage a.k.a. Greg S ==== Subject: Re: [OT] Brain software update X > One of the things that made present human civilization possible > was developing the knowledge of how to culture plants, > how to grow vastly more on the same original land. It is equally as significant to know how to get much more > out of your own nervous system -- more energy and intelligence, > more creativity, finer health, and most of all, > feeling finer, under all circumstances. If this isn't *the* topic of greatest importance to civilization, > what is? You seem to have good goals and the means to get there don't sound bad, but they still do to me! Why? I don't believe that man himself can build a better world. You have to co-operate with God. To my experience it's pointless to go on with this so why don't we just agree to disagree. BUT if you insist you can clarify your point in a private e-mail to me. Veli-Pekka ==== Subject: Would anyone like to port a program for me? I would like the following hp48 programs to be ported to the hp49g http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1176 http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1181 http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1969 I would greatly appreciate it if someone would do this for me. I know this is a lot to do, so if anyone is willing, I really just want that first one to be ported. again i would greatly appreciate this. -Tareq Dowla ==== Subject: Re: Would anyone like to port a program for me? > http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1969 > Chemlab 2.7 by Arnold Moy, HP49G version : http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4851 Alain ==== Subject: Turn off evil HP49g expression editor Hi everyone, I'm considering buying the HP49g. I have a 39g, but it really isn't powerfull enough for me (I'm an engineering student). I have downloaded the emulator off the net to have a play with. So far the HP seems good, but one thing irks me - the irrating way it forces you to enter expressions. Is there a way to disable this expression editor, so I can enter expressions like on the hp39g? I want to be able to type this: y = 5 x ^ 2 + sin ( 2 x ^ 2 + 6 ) not y = 5 x up-arrow ^ 2 up arrow + sin blah blah blah. I really don't like haveing to repeatedly stab the arrow keys to enter a simple function. I don't know RPN yet (although I'm willing to learn). Can anyone help? Al www.alpage.cjb.net ==== Subject: Re: Turn off evil HP49g expression editor > Hi everyone, I'm considering buying the HP49g. I have a 39g, but it really isn't > powerfull enough for me (I'm an engineering student). I have > downloaded the emulator off the net to have a play with. So far the HP > seems good, but one thing irks me - the irrating way it forces you to > enter expressions. Is there a way to disable this expression editor, > so I can enter expressions like on the hp39g? I want to be able to > type this: y = 5 x ^ 2 + sin ( 2 x ^ 2 + 6 ) not y = 5 x up-arrow ^ 2 up arrow + sin blah blah blah. I really don't like haveing to repeatedly stab the arrow keys to enter > a simple function. I don't know RPN yet (although I'm willing to > learn). Can anyone help? > Al Simply press the following: ' Y = 5 * X ^ 2 + SIN 2 * X ^ 2 + 6 ENTER where ' requires RIGHTARROW EQW and = requires RIGHTARROW +/- keys to be pressed. ^ is of course Y^X key. Parenthesiss are omitted, because SIN key puts them automatically. Also closing ' is omitted because HP does it for you when you press ENTER. Also, please try to stay with RPN immidietly. Force yourself to use it for several months. Otherwise you will never use HP49 to it's full potential. RPN requires getting used to. The longer you use algebraic mode, the harder will be for you to switch and get used to different intrface and different approach to entering problems into the calculator. Being efficint with using stack advanages and understending how greatly and consistently HP interface is built around object oriented idea requires RPN. For those who are comfortable with both, RPN is a way more powerfull and ergonomic interface. Some will never fill comfortable with RPN. Those should probably buy TI89 or TI92+ rather, than HP49. Jack ==== Subject: Re: Turn off evil HP49g expression editor does, however, cause the emulator to display an box containing another smaller box with another flashing little box on the upper right hand corner. Something like this: |-|-----| |_| _ | | | | | | | | | | - | |-----| where the innermost box is black, the largerst box a black outline (not filled in) and the upperleft box flashes at me. I cannot enter any info. Here's what I'm doing. Suppose I wanted to plot Y=5X^2+sin(2x^2+g). Turning the calculator on from scratch, I: 1. Tell it not to recover memory (It's acting like it's never been turned on before) 2. hit leftshift F1 to get y= button 3. the screen comes up with 'no equ, press ADD' 4. I press ADD 5 Y1(x)= appears. 6. I type ' as suggested 7. the box appears like y1(x)= |=| ^ box arrangmeent I am free to move a pointer around the screen using the arrow keys. Moving the pointer selectes or deselects whaverever I move it over. What am I doing wrong? As per you recommendations with PRN, the reason I'm playing with this mode of entry is twofold. Firstly, I don't know RPN, but I would like to get a feel for the HP49's features before I go out and spend quite a bit of money on one. I'm interested in knowing if it's suitable EG can do laplace transforms, decent 3D graphs, etc. Secondly, I'm going to try and learn RPN. Undoubtably in a test I'll stuff it up. That's why I'd like this mode of entry as a backup. Al Borowski www.alpage.cjb.net > Simply press the following: ' Y = 5 * X ^ 2 + SIN 2 * X ^ 2 + 6 ENTER where ' requires RIGHTARROW EQW and = requires RIGHTARROW > +/- keys to be pressed. ^ is of course Y^X key. Parenthesiss are > omitted, because SIN key puts them automatically. Also closing ' is > omitted because HP does it for you when you press ENTER. Also, please try to stay with RPN immidietly. Force yourself to use > it for several months. Otherwise you will never use HP49 to it's full > potential. RPN requires getting used to. The longer you use > algebraic mode, the harder will be for you to switch and get used > to different intrface and different approach to entering problems into the > calculator. Being efficint with using stack advanages and understending > how greatly and consistently HP interface is built around object oriented > idea requires RPN. For those who are comfortable with both, RPN > is a way more powerfull and ergonomic interface. Some will > never fill comfortable with RPN. Those should probably > buy TI89 or TI92+ rather, than HP49. Jack ==== Subject: Re: Turn off evil HP49g expression editor What am I doing wrong? > Don't press ' in that eviroment (EQW) but in the RPN stack: If you choose the RPN mode, then pressing ' in the stack, you will be able to write the equation as in your 39G Raul ==== Subject: Re: Turn off evil HP49g expression editor tankyou very much. apoligize if sounding incoherent becuase well after misnight working on stupif assigment. al www.alpage.cjb.net What am I doing wrong? > Don't press ' in that eviroment (EQW) but in the RPN stack: > If you choose the RPN mode, then pressing ' in the stack, you will be able > to write the equation as in your 39G > Raul ==== Subject: Re: Turn off evil HP49g expression editor Have you tried pressing EQW for writting your expression? Sure Jack can explain it better than I, but perhaps is a good idea download MetaKernel 2.3 for the 48GX and read about the equation editor. Hope this can helps Raul ==== Subject: Re: Turn off evil HP49g expression editor ...AND that evil equation editor will let you edit any expresion you entered before, for modifying it... Raul ==== Subject: Re: Turn off evil HP49g expression editor > ...AND that evil equation editor will let you edit any expresion you entered > before, for modifying it... > AND when you write your own STARTEQW, you will be able of almost anything you can imagine on the whole expression or only in a part (ex: COLLECT applied only to a denominator) Raul ==== Subject: Re: Turn off evil HP49g expression editor try the y^x key be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== Subject: Re: [48 / 49soon] FEM48 v5.0 released Howlong about porting FEM v 5.0 to hp49?. It's the best and very impressive. Lomt ==== Subject: Re: [48 / 49soon] FEM48 v5.0 released since I'm in a middle of it, I will answer to that one. Still one library to port and, of course, a little bit of overall checking. I should be already done, but I was sick for the last two weeks. Alain > Howlong about porting FEM v 5.0 to hp49?. It's the best and very impressive. > Lomt ==== Subject: Re: [48 / 49soon] FEM48 v5.0 released Of course I meant the nearly finished port that is great (not the two weeks being sick...) Hope you're feeling better now! Caspar Caspar Lugtmeier & Eva Skotarczak schreef in > That is great news Alain! > Please note that FEM48 v5.0 is already available at: > http://home.hccnet.nl/c.lugtmeier/str.html Caspar Alain Robillard schreef in bericht since I'm in a middle of it, I will answer to that one. Still one library >to port and, of course, a little bit of overall checking. I should be >already done, but I was sick for the last two weeks. > Alain Howlong about porting FEM v 5.0 to hp49?. It's the best and very >impressive. >> Lomt > > ==== Subject: Re: [48 / 49soon] FEM48 v5.0 released What's your rom version of hp49 ? 1.19-6? I'm glad to hear this good news. Lomt ==== Subject: Re: [48 / 49soon] FEM48 v5.0 released it should at least work on 1.18 and 1.19-6. Alain > > What's your rom version of hp49 ? 1.19-6? > I'm glad to hear this good news. > Lomt ==== Subject: Re: [48 / 49soon] FEM48 v5.0 released it should at least work on 1.18 and 1.19-6. Alain > > What's your rom version of hp49 ? 1.19-6? > I'm glad to hear this good news. > Lomt waiting for fem5.0 for hp49 cheer up cheer up :) ==== Subject: Newbie: howto graph z^4 = 5x^2 + 6y^2 on HP49g Like the subject says, I want to graph z^4 = 5x^2 + 6y^2 on a HP 49g. My first thought was to do a fast3d plot of f(x,y) = the forth root of (5x^2 + 6y^2). Maple says the graph looks like 2 bowels back to back. The HP shows a single strip, not 2 bowels. Can someone please enlighten me? Al www.alpage.cjb.net ==== Subject: Re: Newbie: howto graph z^4 = 5x^2 + 6y^2 on HP49g Like the subject says, I want to graph z^4 = 5x^2 + 6y^2 on a HP 49g. > My first thought was to do a fast3d plot of f(x,y) = the forth root of > (5x^2 + 6y^2). Maple says the graph looks like 2 bowels back to back. > The HP shows a single strip, not 2 bowels. Can someone please enlighten me? > Al > www.alpage.cjb.net Are you sure that it isn't 2 BOWLs back to back? Also, when you graph a 4th root, you will only see the postive root, not the negative one, so your graph shows only half the actual graph. ==== Subject: Re: Newbie: howto graph z^4 = 5x^2 + 6y^2 on HP49g Are you sure that it isn't 2 BOWLs back to back? Also, when you graph a 4th root, you will only see the postive root, > not the negative one, so your graph shows only half the actual graph. Yes, you are correct - I can't spell :-) What I'm asking is is it possible to setup the calculator so all roots are shown? I'd really like the HP to be like maple in this regard. Al www.alpage.cjb.net ==== Subject: Re: Newbie: howto graph z^4 = 5x^2 + 6y^2 on HP49g > Are you sure that it isn't 2 BOWLs back to back? >Also, when you graph a 4th root, you will only see the postive root, >not the negative one, so your graph shows only half the actual graph. Yes, you are correct - I can't spell :-) What I'm asking is is it possible to setup the calculator so all > roots are shown? I'd really like the HP to be like maple in this > regard. > Al Hi Al! Perhaps you solve z^4 = 5x^2 + 6y^2 for z. You get a list of all solutions, two of which are real, so that you plot all real solutions as functions of X and Y. Nick. ==== Subject: Re: Newbie: howto graph z^4 = 5x^2 + 6y^2 on HP49g In general , to show this type of graph you can graph a list of 2 functions, with one representing the negative roots and one the positive roots, eg: { y= v/X y= -v/X } to show both roots of SQR(X). Dennis ==== Subject: Re: Newbie: howto graph z^4 = 5x^2 + 6y^2 on HP49g > In general , to show this type of graph you can graph a list of 2 functions, > with one representing the negative roots and one the positive roots, eg: { y= v/X y= -v/X } to show both roots of SQR(X). > Dennis But this doesn't work for z = f(x,y) and z = - f(x,y) and fast3d graphs. ==== Subject: Re: Newbie: howto graph z^4 = 5x^2 + 6y^2 on HP49g > In general , to show this type of graph you can graph a list of 2 functions, >with one representing the negative roots and one the positive roots, eg: >{ y= v/X y= -v/X } >to show both roots of SQR(X). >Dennis But this doesn't work for z = f(x,y) and z = - f(x,y) and fast3d > graphs. Hi Virgil! You are right. You have to use the old wireframe plot type, or plot the positive branch with fast3d, press STO to put the plot on the stack, plot the negative branch (with the same settings), put the second plot on the stack and then press + to logically OR (superimpose) the two plots. Nick. ==== Subject: Re: Newbie: howto graph z^4 = 5x^2 + 6y^2 on HP49g You could write to BugZilla http://bugs.hpcalc.org/ a suggestion for (Cyrille?) to enhance the Fast 3D setup [V] Include Neg. Veli-Pekka > In general , to show this type of graph you can graph a list of 2 functions, >with one representing the negative roots and one the positive roots, eg: { y= v/X y= -v/X } to show both roots of SQR(X). >Dennis But this doesn't work for z = f(x,y) and z = - f(x,y) and fast3d > graphs. ==== Subject: Financial Program like HP 10B Does someone know how to emulate the same functions of HP 10BII on my HP 48GX ? I need good financial functions. Email : philou75@netcourrier.com ==== Subject: Re: Financial Program like HP 10B 48GX? How about www.hpcalc.org for business applications? Bond (no, not :) http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=169 Cash Flow (mine is currently negative :( http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4507 or a bunch of them http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=191 a smaller one: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4506 and they were all here: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/apps/misc/ Veli-Pekka > Does someone know how to emulate the same functions of HP 10BII on my HP > 48GX ? > I need good financial functions. > Email : philou75@netcourrier.com ==== Subject: Re: Financial Program like HP 10B >Does someone know how to emulate the same functions of HP 10BII on my HP >48GX ? >I need good financial functions. As Veli-Pekka well put it, I encourage you to try the original last release from Mac'Don'ald Phillips http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=191, ported to 49G by John Meyers here http://hpcalc.beachnet.org/details.php?id=5014 I believe it is the most more complete financial application for the 4X series. You might try differente releases, as a whole package or as individual applications (in directories or library formats) subdirectories: (1) EQV (Equation of Value). (2) ->TVM (Time Value of Money). (3) CAPB (Capital Budgeting): This used to be the old NPV subdirectory. (4) GNPV (Generalized NPV): This is the new subdirectory for dated cash lows. (5) BOND (U.S. Treasury, U.S. Agency, and Municipal bonds). (6) STCK (Stocks). (7) DEP (Depreciation). (8) OPTS (Black-Scholes call and put routines). (9) $INF (Inflation adjustments). (10) SIMP (Simple Interest). (11) DSEC (Discounted Securities). Perhaps, you can manage your needs with subdirectories #1, 2, 3, 4, 10... There are many others along the ones Veli-Pekka recommended, which are very good. I personally also like the recent Finanzmathematik 2.4 By Andreas M.9aller which you can find here http://hpcalc.beachnet.org/details.php?id=4968 even though it is in german. ==== Subject: Strange IP (Integer part) behaviour I find strange the way my HP49 computes an integer part. For X>=0, no problem. But for X<0, the IP function returns something equivalent to -Int(Abs(X)), where all mathematicians worlwide would have written -Int(Abs(X))-1. Any idea ? I should add that I upgraded to Ver 1.19-6 beta... hank's in advance, Herve ==== Subject: Re: Strange IP (Integer part) behaviour >Any idea ? I should add that I upgraded to Ver 1.19-6 beta... >hank's in advance, >Herve I am not sure about the definitions in mathematics, but I agree I have generally seen the result of INT truncated to the next lower integer. On the 49G you have more specific control wih FLOOR and CEIL, giving the next lower integer and next higher integer specifically. IP (integer part) seems to give just that, the signed integer part of the input. Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) ==== Subject: Re: Strange IP (Integer part) behaviour thank's to you I am now discovering CEIL... Herve 20021007162957.15625.00000763@mb-cv.aol.com... >Any idea ? I should add that I upgraded to Ver 1.19-6 beta... hank's in advance, Herve I am not sure about the definitions in mathematics, but I agree I have > generally seen the result of INT truncated to the next lower integer. On the > 49G you have more specific control wih FLOOR and CEIL, giving the next lower > integer and next higher integer specifically. IP (integer part) seems to give > just that, the signed integer part of the input. > Bill > alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please > (Use the obvious) ==== Subject: Re: Strange IP (Integer part) behaviour > I find strange the way my HP49 computes an integer part. For X>=0, no > problem. But for X<0, the IP function returns something equivalent > to -Int(Abs(X)), > where all mathematicians worlwide would have written -Int(Abs(X))-1. > Any idea ? I should add that I upgraded to Ver 1.19-6 beta... > hank's in advance, > Herve You may be confusing IP with FLOOR. IP, short for integer part, is supposed to take the integer part of the *decimal representation* of the number, just as FP takes the fractional part of that decimal representation. One should have IP(x)+FP(x) = x for all real x. For a negative non-integer, this means finding the next integer in the *positive* direction. FLOOR for a non-integer always finds the next integer in the negative direction. Thus IP(-0.5) = 0 and FLOOR(-0.5) = -1. ==== Subject: Re: Strange IP (Integer part) behaviour That's it ! I didn't even new FLOOR was existing... Herve vmhjr2-5DE5E9.15593206102002@netnews.attbi.com... > I find strange the way my HP49 computes an integer part. For X>=0, no >problem. But for X<0, the IP function returns something equivalent >to -Int(Abs(X)), >where all mathematicians worlwide would have written -Int(Abs(X))-1. >Any idea ? I should add that I upgraded to Ver 1.19-6 beta... >hank's in advance, >Herve > > You may be confusing IP with FLOOR. IP, short for integer part, is supposed to take the integer part > of the *decimal representation* of the number, just as FP takes the > fractional part of that decimal representation. One should have IP(x)+FP(x) = x for all real x. For a negative non-integer, this means finding the next integer in > the *positive* direction. FLOOR for a non-integer always finds the next integer in the > negative direction. Thus IP(-0.5) = 0 and FLOOR(-0.5) = -1. ==== Subject: Programming question... everyone! I'm going to make a program where I need a full-screen menu system, and this time it's serious! :-) So I'm currently learning how to program Sys-RPL, and I wondered if someone with programming experience could give me some tips on how to make an efficient menu system... I have the Programming in System RPL (PDF) By Eduardo M. Kalinowski document as a reference, and I just want to check if the right approach to this task is to make the menu system by using using an Input Form as discussed in chapter 13??? What could I do if I wanted to make the menu list using small fonts instead (preferably from the UFL lib), it that still possible??? thanx in advance, Artur ==== Subject: Re: Programming question... You may want to take a look at these: for 49G: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3258 for 48G: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4211 I'm sure you know how to get the source code... VPN > everyone! I'm going to make a program where I need a full-screen menu system, and this > time it's serious! :-) So I'm currently learning how to program Sys-RPL, and I wondered if someone with > programming experience could give me some tips on how to make an efficient menu > system... I have the Programming in System RPL (PDF) By Eduardo M. Kalinowski document > as a reference, and I just want to check if the right approach to this task is > to make the menu system by using using an Input Form as discussed in chapter 13??? What could I do if I wanted to make the menu list using small fonts instead > (preferably from the UFL lib), it that still possible??? thanx in advance, Artur > ==== Subject: Programming manuals for HP 48 G How can I get used manuals for programming the HP 48 contact me @ hdiaz(at)vt.edu ==== Subject: HP-48GX and Angles everybody, I'm a student learning to be a machinist and I need a new calculator. When working with blueprints, angle are given Degrees, Minutes and Seconds. My current HP 32S II only works with decimal degrees. Will the HP48GX work in D.M.S.? Or any other RPN calculator that will? Barry Upson ==== Subject: Re: HP-48GX and Angles > everybody, I'm a student learning to be a machinist and I need a new calculator. When working with blueprints, angle are given Degrees, Minutes and Seconds. > My current HP 32S II only works with decimal degrees. Will the HP48GX work > in D.M.S.? > Or any other RPN calculator that will? Barry Upson The HP48 does conversions but it is hidden in TIME utilities, function HMS-> and ->HMS. I don't know the 32, maybe there is this functionality Arnaud ==== Subject: Re: HP-48GX and Angles > everybody, I'm a student learning to be a machinist and I need a new calculator. When working with blueprints, angle are given Degrees, Minutes and Seconds. > My current HP 32S II only works with decimal degrees. Will the HP48GX work > in D.M.S.? > Or any other RPN calculator that will? Barry Upson Hi Barry! Of course the HP48GX will work with D.M.S. You can supply the functions that need an angle argument such an angle in D.M.S format. But you can always convert between decimal degrees and D.M.S. with the functions ->HMS and HMS-> . Nick. Nick. ==== Subject: Re: HP-48GX and Angles > everybody, I'm a student learning to be a machinist and I need a new calculator. When working with blueprints, angle are given Degrees, Minutes and Seconds. > My current HP 32S II only works with decimal degrees. Will the HP48GX work This is not exactly: it only works with decimal BUT you can give data in sexagesimal, translate them to decimal, make the operations and finally, translate to sexagesimal for reading the answer. If I want add 3.bc 15' 34 '' plus 2.bc 20' 14'' in my 15c I do: 3.1534 ->H 2.2014 ->H + getting the decimal answer: 5.5967 Then ->H.MS for the sexagesimal answer: 5.3548, which means 5.bc 35' 48'' Look for something like this in your 32. The 48 will let you add directly in sexagesimal if you wish. Raul ==== Subject: Re: HP-48GX and Angles You can ENTER units in DMS, but calculations must be done in decimal degrees. The HP48 has commands to calculate both to and from DMS to decimal. Using the HP48 makes this easy, as you can program these conversions to take place automatically if you like. Dennis ==== Subject: Re: HP-48GX and Angles > The HP48 has commands to calculate both to and from DMS to > decimal. Using the HP48 makes this easy, as you can program these > conversions to take place automatically if you like. The following DMS program (version 1) puts the HP49 or HP49 into a virtual Degrees Minutes Seconds Display Mode whereby ALL calculations (of ANY kind, not just arithmetic) are performed directly in DMS notation: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/utils/misc/dms.zip There is also a new, improved version 2 of DMS which has these new features: (1) Angles can be > 360¡. (2) Negative angles are allowed. (3) New menu key: [±180] computes equivalent angle between -180¡ and +180¡. (4) New menu key: [<360] computes equivalent angle between 0¡ and 360¡. (5) MIN and SEC keys have been renamed to +MIN and +SEC for clarity. It's available here: http://holyjoe.org/dms2.zip Enjoy! -Joe- joehorn@jps.net http://HolyJoe.org ==== Subject: Re: HP-48GX and Angles There is also a new, improved version 2 of DMS which has these > new features: > .... > (5) MIN and SEC keys have been renamed to +MIN and +SEC for > clarity. Are you sure? ==== Subject: Re: HP-48GX and Angles Hi Raul, > You like Dungeon Keeper 2? Yes, a really nice game, but my favourite is Dungeon Keeper 1 Raymond ==== Subject: Re: HP-48GX and Angles > You can ENTER units in DMS, but calculations must be done in decimal degrees. > The HP48 has commands to calculate both to and from DMS to decimal. Using the > HP48 makes this easy, as you can program these conversions to take place > automatically if you like. Dennis ==== Subject: Re: HP-48GX and Angles HMS+ and HMS- You can assign these to the [ + ] and [ - ] keys so that in user mode they do the HMS calculation How to program HMS* and HMS/ and what do they mean? That I leave to you Veli-Pekka >You can ENTER units in DMS, but calculations must be done in decimal > degrees. >The HP48 has commands to calculate both to and from DMS to decimal. Using > the >HP48 makes this easy, as you can program these conversions to take place >automatically if you like. Dennis ==== Subject: Numbered stack on HP49G I followed manual directions but stack still doesn't appear numbered 4 3.2.1. Can someone give directions please. I just got thiis HP49G. ==== Subject: Clarificaton: Numbered stack on HP49G I followed manual directions but stack still doesn't appear numbered 4 3.2.1. Can someone give directions please. I just got this HP49G. Stack on HP49G looks like :1 1 :2 2 :3 3 :4 4 Can I get these to line up as below? The stack appears to be backward from my HP48GX in which stack level numbers are in reverse order Same inputs above look like the following for HP48GX ??? 4: 1 3: 2 2: 3 1: 4 I then dropped 4 and edited 2 to look like232 on HP49G stack looks like : 232 232 ? What is going on here? mmstat ==== Subject: Re: Clarificaton: Numbered stack on HP49G > I followed manual directions but stack still doesn't appear numbered 4 > 3.2.1. Can someone give directions please. I just got this HP49G. You're in algebraic mode, also known as stupid mode. Press [MODE] [+/-] [ENTER] to change to RPN mode, also known as smart mode. If RPN mode befuddles you, press [MODE] [+/-] [ENTER] again to return to stupid mode. Hope this helps! -Joe- joehorn@jps.net http://HolyJoe.org ==== Subject: Re: Clarificaton: Numbered stack on HP49G >> I followed manual directions but stack still doesn't appear numbered 4 >> 3.2.1. Can someone give directions please. I just got this HP49G. You're in algebraic mode, also known as stupid mode. Press [MODE] >[+/-] [ENTER] to change to RPN mode, also known as smart mode. If >RPN mode befuddles you, press [MODE] [+/-] [ENTER] again to return to >stupid mode. Calling it stupid mode runs the risk that the user might be thought stupid rather than the mode. (I'm sure that this never occurred to you So how about calling them school mode and proper mode? -- Bruce Horrocks Hampshire England bh@granby.demon.co.uk ==== Subject: Re: Clarificaton: Numbered stack on HP49G I just keep calling the Algebraic mode The Dark Side of the Force If you go to the Dark Side forever it will rule your destiny! Yoda-Pekka X > Calling it stupid mode runs the risk that the user might be thought > stupid rather than the mode. (I'm sure that this never occurred to you > So how about calling them school mode and proper mode? ==== Subject: Re: Clarificaton: Numbered stack on HP49G I agree with Viktor Toth (programmable calculators museum) in easy to learn is not easy to use... http://www.rskey.org/hp39g.htm I think the problem is many young people don't want to do the EFFORT of learning RPN: this seems difficult, give me other, please. I'm afraid that this in not the only effort that they don't want to do... but I recognise be very happy when I see one of my pupils enjoying with a keystroke programmable Casio, like I did 20 years ago... Raul ==== Subject: Re: Clarificaton: Numbered stack on HP49G > I followed manual directions but stack still doesn't appear numbered 4 > 3.2.1. Can someone give directions please. I just got this HP49G. Why don't you follow the advice already given by Bernd and R Lion? Steen ==== Subject: Re: Clarificaton: Numbered stack on HP49G Why don't you follow the advice already given by Bernd and R Lion? Steen: have you any idea why I don't see the Bernd's post with my Outlook Express? Raul ==== Subject: Re: Clarificaton: Numbered stack on HP49G Seen: > why don't I see the Bernd's post with my Outlook Express? News is a kind of broadcast service; not all of it reaches all ISPs; in fact, our local ISP used to capture only about half the posts in this group; then they contracted out to a big newsfeeds company instead (and even that goliath misses some that appear elsewhere). Google gets most everything, though. The arrival sequence also varies, according to different routes which messages follow between original senders and world-wide recipients; replies sometimes appear before original questions in some cases. -[]- . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== Subject: Re: Clarificaton: Numbered stack on HP49G > Steen: have you any idea why I don't see the Bernd's post with my Outlook > Express? Bernd's mail source is formatted correctly, and has no attachments. Re: is used in the subject line, so no language bugs in OE should prevent you from seeing it. A number of things can be the cause: - You have kill-filed Bernds email addy, or the aon.at server in Austria. - Your ISP or NSP has kill-filed Bernds email addy, or the aon.at server. - There is a problem with synchronization of outgoing news data from Austria, ingoing news data to Spain, or somewhere on the way. - Your news server has crashed, and data will be rebuilt. - The news server you use is not updated yet, but will be shortly. I vote for the last option. Steen ==== Subject: Re: Numbered stack on HP49G > I followed manual directions but stack still doesn't appear numbered 4 > 3.2.1. Can someone give directions please. I just got thiis HP49G. I see you have chaged of calculator yet... Just select RPN instead Algebraic in Modes input form (press key MODE) Raul (still with the good old Metakerneled and Erablered 48GX) ==== Subject: Re: Numbered stack on HP49G Maybe you are in Algebraic - Mode ! Switch to RPN Mode by : Mode - Key -> Algebraic Mode (use now th2 +/- key to change to RPN Mode) and press the OK Key ! HTH Bernd mmstat schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I followed manual directions but stack still doesn't appear numbered 4 > 3.2.1. Can someone give directions please. I just got thiis HP49G. ==== Subject: How to create text notes for the HP49G Hi; I'm trying to make a file with some notes on my computer and transfer them to my HP49G. I tried creating a text file in notepad and transferring it over but I got an error message. Carmen ==== Subject: Re: How to create text notes for the HP49G > I'm trying to make a file with some notes on my computer > and transfer them to my HP49G. > I tried creating a text file in notepad and > transferring it over but I got an error message. The terminology (this is text, so I'll download in ascii mode) can lead us, in this case, to do the opposite of what works. Transferring with Kermit in ascii mode acts like just typing from the keyboard, which gets compiled and syntax-checked, expecting data or programs, so it doesn't process any old text (the same goes for the 49G text editor application, which is for editing data or programs, *not* for editing general text!) On the other hand, binary transfer (Kermit or Xmodem) downloads every byte, unchanged, directly into the calc, and will actually download any computer file at all, as a string. But here's another way, which even removes the useless carriage return characters which PCs still put at the end of every line: Computer file: %%HP: T(3); C$ $ [follow with any text at all, any number of lines, no quoting needed] It also now doesn't care what transfer mode Kermit was set to, because the %%HP: ... ; found at the beginning of the file tells HP48/49 Kermit to use ascii mode anyway, the T(3) tells it to translate some things and to remove carriage return characters, and the syntax C$ $ tells the compiler to make one string out of all the rest of the file. ((o)) . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== Subject: Re: How to create text notes for the HP49G Carmen > How about storing a short string like a short string > to a variable, say 'text.txt' in your calculator > and then transferring that to your PC. > You may then in your PC examine the first line > of your file - a header - where you will find the information > necessary for the text file transmission to the calc. > You this file as a template for any further transmissions. > Good luck! > VPN >Hi; >I'm trying to make a file with some notes on my computer and transfer >them to my HP49G. I tried creating a text file in notepad and >transferring it over but I got an error message. >Carmen ==== Subject: off topic: 49G emulator in WINE Sorry this is off topic, just wanted to know if anyone have the 49G emulator for Linux or has gotten it to work in WINE. WINE is an emulator that allow MS Windows application to run on Linux. ==== Subject: Re: off topic: 49G emulator in WINE I've tried, but after start it has some problems to find kmi and emu.rom files... but at least it starts.. I haven't played much with it. I will try Saturn emulator for Linux, that can be found in hpcalc.org J.Manrique http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique Users Club from Gij.97n http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu #1077 HPCC Member http://www.hpcc.org > Sorry this is off topic, just wanted to know if anyone have the 49G > emulator for Linux or has gotten it to work in WINE. WINE is an > emulator that allow MS Windows application to run on Linux. ==== Subject: Re: off topic: 49G emulator in WINE Saturn will not compile, I get make: *** No rule to make target `saturn.man', needed by `saturn._man'. Stop. Any ideas? I've tried, but after start it has some problems to find kmi and > emu.rom files... but at least it starts.. I haven't played much with > it. I will try Saturn emulator for Linux, that can be found in hpcalc.org J.Manrique > http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique > Users Club from Gij.97n > http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu > #1077 HPCC Member > http://www.hpcc.org > >>Sorry this is off topic, just wanted to know if anyone have the 49G >>emulator for Linux or has gotten it to work in WINE. WINE is an >>emulator that allow MS Windows application to run on Linux. > ==== Subject: Re: off topic: 49G emulator in WINE > Saturn will not compile, I get make: *** No rule to make target > `saturn.man', needed by `saturn._man'. Stop. Any ideas? > saturn is a bit dusty, and its Imakefile is not quite up to date for your version of XWS. As a quick workaround, I suggest to do: $touch saturn.man pack.man immediately after xmkmf (and before make), in the top-level source directory. The saturn's manual is in texi format anyway, so this does not harm. Ivan -- -- Ivan Cibrario Bertolotti / phone: +39 011 5645426 IEIIT - National Research Council / c/o Politecnico di Torino / fax: +39 011 5645429 Turin (Italy) / mailto:ivan.cibrario@polito.it ==== Subject: Re: off topic: 49G emulator in WINE > Sorry this is off topic, just wanted to know if anyone have the 49G > emulator for Linux or has gotten it to work in WINE. WINE is an > emulator that allow MS Windows application to run on Linux. Emu48 works just perfectly under wine. -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== Subject: How to Solve Differential Equations Anybody in this forum could say me how I can calculate a linear system command). -Dante. ==== Subject: Re: How to Solve Differential Equations ! for example : y'' + 2y' + y = e^(-x) You put the right side on stack (level 2 -> argument 1) exp(-x) the left side you can express as follows: x^2 + 2x + 1 (the 2nd derivate of y is now expressed as x^2, the 1st derivate as x and so on ...) After that Your stack should look like: 2: exp(-x) 1:x^2+2*x+1 LDEC press ENTER and you will get the result HTH Bernd Dante Aron.92 C. schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Anybody in this forum could say me how I can calculate a linear system > command). > -Dante. ==== Subject: Calculo Numerico - howto ... Trying to run Calculo Numerico I 1.0 Beta but I guess I don't know how. I select the file and press eval but nothing happens, I see the memory usage goes up. Does any one know how to use this program? I have others that do the same thing - I know it is me and NOT the calculator. Any help would be appreciated. - Jamie ==== Subject: Re: Calculo Numerico - howto ... > Trying to run Calculo Numerico I 1.0 Beta but I guess I don't know how. > I select the file and press eval but nothing happens, I see the memory > usage goes up. Does any one know how to use this program? I have > others that do the same thing - I know it is me and NOT the calculator. Any help would be appreciated. - Jamie Hi Jamie! Any relation to Niels? Anyway, this software is a library, it doesn't run itself but it is rather a collection of commands that are available on your HP after you installed the library. To install it you can enter the number of the port of memory where you want to store it. For example you enter 0 to store it in port 0. Then you press STO and switch the HP off then back ON to warmstart it. After that you can go to the libraries menu and press the menu key of Calculo Numerico, or just enter 1106 and press MENU, to go to to the menu of that library. In this menu you have several commands that you can use according to the manuals of the library. You can even use the available commands in your own programs. Did that help a bit? Nick. ==== Subject: Buying an HP49 in Toronto Okay, so I lost my HP49 when it was stolen. That was careless inattention on my part. Dumb, dumb. So I set out to get another one, and discovered that they’ve vanished from Toronto. The university bookstores and various electronic stores didn’t even want to bother ordering one. Fortunately the Grand & Toy office supply store came to the rescue and had one in for me in three days. It was absurdly expensive at $325 Cdn, but at least I didn’t have to go through the hassle of cross-border mail ordering. And it turned out to be one of the newer Chinese models, with the serial starting with CN. It included the Advanced User’s Guide and a DB9 adapter for the serial cable. The keyboard is a little bit softer than the Indonesian model, but it still needs work. It ain’t no HP48. Instead of the glossy light blue finish, it’s now a pebbly light blue finish, which doesn’t make the tiny lettering any easier to read. On the plus side, the screen cover has no rainbow effect at all. The OS is still 1.18. On the back of the manual is a list of the features, and curiously, it says that the flash ROM is 1.25 megabytes. Sounds likes over-enthusiastic marketing - even after deleting the demo, it read only one meg. The advanced manual isn’t all that advanced. It spends far too many pages rehashing stuff from the regular manual, and it only covers the CAS commands - there’s almost nothing about the actual operation. And of course it’s out of sync with version 1.19-6. Sure nice to have it back, though. With the help of all the great software written by people on this newsgroup, I’ll soon have it the way HP should have done it in the first place. Bill ==== Subject: Re: Buying an HP49 in Toronto X > Instead of the glossy light blue finish, it’s now a pebbly light > blue finish, which doesn’t make the tiny lettering any easier to > read. On the plus side, the screen cover has no rainbow effect at > all. The OS is still 1.18. On the back of the manual is a list of > the features, and curiously, it says that the > flash ROM is 1.25 megabytes. Sounds likes over-enthusiastic marketing > - even after deleting the demo, it read only one meg. Well, with ROM 1.18 (which is the latest Commercial version) takes only 1MB - 64KB and leaves to you 1MB + 64KB give or take a few bytes. The new Beta 1.19-6 takes that extra half-slot away from you but gives in return quite a stable OS with a lot of enhancements If we are ever going to get the 1.19-7, it will be even better. Even the 1.19-5 was - compared to any previous HP top-model - enough bug-free to be a final release or Commercial 2.00 While 1.19-6 could have been 2.02 and the up-coming 1.19-7 I would rename to 2.04. Veli-Pekka ==== Subject: Search of comp.sys.hp48 How does one search all of comp.sys.hp48 for messages concerning a topic of interest. On HP49 I want to store a program entitled COLRED. When I press sto it says STO ERROR BAD ARGUMENT TYPE? What is wrong? mmstat ==== Subject: Re: Search of comp.sys.hp48 > How does one search all of comp.sys.hp48 > for messages concerning a topic of interest. For search: For help: For other info and useful tools and programs: http://www.hpcalc.org > I want to store a program entitled COLRED. > When I press STO it says STO ERROR: BAD ARGUMENT TYPE Assuming you are in RPN mode, the stack must look like this: 2: any object (your already-edited program, for example) 1: 'name' (must be quoted with ['] not []) Then press STO. BTW, have you looked through whatever manual and quick-ref guide came with your calc? The quick-ref guide shows arguments needed by commands, doesn't it? If you want to keep the program stored in user memory while you edit it, put an empty program << >> on the stack and store it; then use the 49G Filer to edit it, and keep storing it again from time to time, to save the changes you have already made (just as on a computer). ((o)) . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== Subject: Re: Search of comp.sys.hp48 Try this link: e=images&ie=ISO-8859-1&as_ugroup=*hp48*&lr=&num=30&hl=en or go to www.deja.com and create a new search. > How does one search all of comp.sys.hp48 for messages concerning a topic of > interest. On HP49 I want to store a program entitled COLRED. When I press > sto it says STO ERROR BAD ARGUMENT TYPE? > What is wrong? mmstat ==== Subject: Conecting Hp49G to PC Well I have tried and tried and I cannot seem to get my HP49G to comm with a PC running Windows XP, windows 2000, nothing at all, I have checked settings, comm ports,etc. I am running PCconnectivity software and have tried hyper terminal. I am putting in server mode and matching config settings. Does anybody know what the secret is, I have had HP49G for 3 months and think its great but I want to get a hold of all the software that is available like I see my fellow students have with the HP48. HELP please Paul Young ==== Subject: Re: Conecting Hp49G to PC > Well I have tried and tried and I cannot seem to get my HP49G > to communicate with a PC running Windows XP, windows 2000, > nothing at all, I have checked settings, comm ports,etc. > I want to get a hold of all the software that is available > as I see my fellow students have with the HP48. Try connecting your 49G to a fellow-student's HP48, with the supplied short 49G cable, and try to exchange some objects; if this doesn't work either, try getting a warranty exchange from HP. If transfer works between calculators but not between 49G and PC, check your calc serial number -- if it begins with ID93... then it may not work with various computers, and should also be exchanged by HP. The 49G Serial port bug explained in detail: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/misc/serial.zip Good luck! ((o)) . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== Subject: Re: Conecting Hp49G to PC > The 49G Serial port bug explained in detail: > http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/misc/serial.zip More details here: [only in Spanish, though] http://www.ate.cl/home/serie93.htm http://www.ate.cl/home/archivos/serie93.pdf Best Wishes, Jordi Hidalgo HPCC member #1046 johil@tv3mail.com - ==== Subject: RPL compiler on PC/Windows 2000 I am looking for an RPL compiler running over Windows 2000. The goal is to be able to practice RPL at the office without playing too visibly with my HP49G :-) I tried to run Emu48, but this is not that confortable. Any idea ? Herve ==== Subject: Re: RPL compiler on PC/Windows 2000 > I am looking for an RPL compiler running over Windows 2000. > Any idea ? There's an RPL/2 compiler, wich resembles RPL of HP28 quite good. It has been compiled successfully on cygwin under Windows, so you can try it: http://rpl2.free.fr -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== Subject: Re: RPL compiler on PC/Windows 2000 Herve 20021010073519.GA32257@mojo.tepkom.ru... > I am looking for an RPL compiler running over Windows 2000. >Any idea ? There's an RPL/2 compiler, wich resembles RPL of HP28 quite good. > It has been compiled successfully on cygwin under Windows, so > you can try it: > http://rpl2.free.fr -- > Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== Subject: a few questions on 49g why are they so slow??? its not funny how slow they are, and omg graphing is as slow as can be. anyway to speed things up? also i hear hp49g has no infrared, so then why is there an infrared thingy on the top of the calc??? ==== Subject: Re: a few questions on 49g > why are they so slow??? Because the CPU is a 4 bit 4 mhz CPU that is a 20+ year old technology and has never been revisited since > its not funny how slow they are, and lomg > graphing is as slow as can be. I know... > anyway to speed things up? Yes, there is a speed up module made by a german company that speed things up slightly, but I don't now if it's going to be fast enough for you.. > also i hear hp49g has no infrared, so then why is there an infrared > thingy on the top of the calc??? Because this allows to have only 1 manufacturing mold (they cost a fortune) for the 49 and the 39 that has IR. ==== Subject: Re: a few questions on 49g > anyway to speed things up? A free and easy way to speed up graphing is to change RES to #2 (or to an even higher setting for turbo mode). Example: #2 RES ... then plot your graphs as usual, except twice as fast! Nifty, huh? The lower-resolution tradeoff only becomes visible in graphs that jump around a lot. For relatively smooth curves, #2 RES is perfectly sufficient. For TI graphing quality, try #4 RES. -Joe- joehorn@jps.net http://HolyJoe.org ==== Subject: Re: a few questions on 49g speed up module eh?? i'll give it a try, where do i go? ==== Subject: Re: a few questions on 49g http://www.cynox.de VP speed up module eh?? i'll give it a try, where do i go? ==== Subject: Re: a few questions on 49g > why are they so slow??? What is too slow? > its not funny how slow they are, and omg > graphing is as slow as can be. What are you trying to graoh, and how do you enter it? > anyway to speed things up? What do you want faster? > also i hear hp49g has no infrared, so then why is there an infrared > thingy on the top of the calc??? There isn't. Steen ==== Subject: Storing formula on the 49g I am curious on how other people store programs on their 49g. Also I am curious on how they store any notes associated with these formula - and pictures. I think it would be beneficial for a lot of people if some of us got together and built a library of common formula in a format that easy to use and makes it easy for people to learn these formula from the calculator. Any tips or tricks you have used with storing formula would be interesting. MC ==== Subject: Re: Storing formula on the 49g > I am curious on how other people store programs on their 49g. Also I am > curious on how they store any notes associated with these formula - and > pictures. > I think it would be beneficial for a lot of people if some of us got > together and built a library of common formula in a format that easy to use > and makes it easy for people to learn these formula from the calculator. > Any tips or tricks you have used with storing formula would be interesting. Look at www.hpcalc.org. Steen ==== Subject: Re: electronic hp programs > Dan Coffin's Algebra and pre-calculus book on the HP48G/GX > has a nice set of HP programs in the back of the book. > Are these available in electronic form anywhere, > so I might download them from my computer to my calculator? If not, an electronic form can be created on your own computer by typing them using Notepad, etc., which may be easier than typing them directly on the calculator. Although you can then transfer these files to the calculator using the file transfer software, I find it nicer to use the emulator instead on the PC, because then you can try everything first on the emulated calculator, then download from the emulated calculator to the real calculator. Text files can be dragged and dropped right onto an emulator window on the PC (or copied and pasted from posts, etc.), where they will then appear on the stack. Likewise, text strings can be copied from the emu48 stack and pasted into other text files on the PC. Characters not found on a normal PC keyboard can be represented using backslash equivalents, e.g. << my program >> Translation of the backslash equivalents to what the calculator actually understands can be performed using simple programs which you can keep right in your [emulated] calculator (or does emu48 have internal translation nowadays?) Actually, I keep my entire calculator in the emulator, and just download memory backups to the calc now and then (if I can still find my calculator any more :) For the next update of Emu48/49, perhaps Christoph might just add a Hot Sync button to make it complete :) Backslash (digraph) equivalents: Copies of backslash translators which I use in my emulator: To compile text from PC, dropped or pasted onto emulator stack: *HP49* only! << ->STR 3. TRANSIO #2F34Dh SYSEVAL + STR-> 'IN' STO *HP48* only! << ->STR 3. TRANSIO #3016Bh SYSEVAL + STR-> 'IN' STO To generate PC text (for copy/paste) from any stack object: *HP49* only! << STD 64. STWS ->STR 3. TRANSIO #2F34Fh SYSEVAL >> 'OUT' STO *HP48* only! << STD 64. STWS ->STR 3. TRANSIO #2FEC9h SYSEVAL >> 'OUT' STO Then I just type IN to import from my PC, and I type OUT to export back to my PC! If some text file happens to begin with %%HP: T(3)... etc. (this is created by HP Kermit when it sends files from the calc), then here is an additional program which first removes the Kermit header and then invokes the above 'IN' program: *HP48/49* << ->STR DUP %%HP: POS { DUP ; POS 1. + OVER SIZE SUB } IFT IN >> 'KIN' STO If you want to be sure of strictly correct ascii program transfers, be sure to set an HP49 to Approximate mode before importing a file from an HP48, and to Exact mode before importing a file from an HP49. For manually typed files to be imported into an HP49, either include decimal points with every real number, to distinguish real-valued integers from exact integers (e.g. 123. vs 123), or else set the HP49 to Approximate mode to assume that all integers are real-valued. IMPORTANT: Select only the above program versions corresponding to your actual calculator model, type the addresses very carefully (in HEX mode), and always backup memory before trying any syseval programs! (because any mistake could wipe out calc memory!) Still looking for Emu48/49? As of version 1.31: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emulators http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emulators/emu48-1.30.zip http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/emu48.htm http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/Emu48-1_30.zip http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/e48bp31.zip [1.31 update] http://www.epita.fr/~avenar_j/hp/49.html [49G ROM] http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emulators/gxrom-r.zip HP file transfer for Windows: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/link http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/link/hpcomm-30r4.zip http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/link/hpcomm-s.zip [with Xmodem] http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/link/kermit3.zip [MS-DOS Kermit] Backslash (digraph) equivalents: Num Sym Description --- --- ----------- 128 <) angle symbol 131 v/ square root 132 .S integral symbol 133 GS Greek Sigma (GSLIST) 135 pi pi 136 .d derivative symbol 137 <= less or equal 138 >= greater or equal 139 =/ unequal 141 -> right arrow (->LIST, -> a b c) 142 <- left arrow (<-local) 143 |v down arrow (|vMATCH) 144 |^ up arrow (|^MATCH) 156 PI capital pi (PILIST) 159 oo infinity 171 << program delimiters 187 >> 092 backslash Notice how most of these conveniently look like the characters which they represent. Lower-case Greek letters: Ga (alpha), Gb (beta), etc. Upper-case Greek letters: GD (Delta), GW (Omega), GS (Sigma) For any other character, you can use nnn (with the 3-digit decimal character number, which you can obtain from the CHARS application in the calc). [r->] [OFF] . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== Subject: Re: electronic hp programs Actually, I keep my entire calculator in the emulator... I am not the only fool... > For the next update of Emu48/49, perhaps Christoph might just add > a Hot Sync button to make it complete :) Yes, please. Raul ==== Subject: Using a menu for input (INMENU) Do you find it too much bother to deal with the kluge factor or details of INPUT, INFORM, etc. when wanting to ask for simple input in a casually written program? Here's a very simple, informal way to ask for input using a menu: { list of variable names } INMENU The screen displays white menu labels for the variables and says Type data, press key (data is both stored and displayed in the status area when you press). The last (black) menu key says OK; press it to resume the program that called INMENU. To display all visible labels and stored values at once, press right-shift cursor-down (review). Do whatever you wish with the stored values that you collect. INMENU was formerly posted using 30 MENU as its engine, but here's a simpler version, suggested by David Rankin: *HP49* version: << { { OK << 0. MENU CONT >> } } + TMENU #25EFFh SYSEVAL 2. ->HEADER Type data, press key PROMPT >> 'INMENU' STO *HP48* version: << { { OK << 0. MENU CONT >> } } + TMENU #151A6h SYSEVAL Type data, press key PROMPT >> 'INMENU' STO Please choose the version matching your calculator model, and always back up memory before using any syseval stuff! To make a version with an extra Cancl key in the menu: << { { CANCL << 0. MENU KILL >> } { OK << 0. MENU CONT >> } } + TMENU #NNNNNh SYSEVAL ... Type data, press key PROMPT >> 'INMENU' STO On HP48 you can replace CANCL with (AN(L to avoid truncating the L in the menu label, as is done in many internal 48G Inform/Choose/etc. menus. According to David Rankin, the HP28S already had a built-in feature which permitted creating a similar one touch menu to ask for input; if so, this feature seems to have disappeared from the HP48 and HP49: Using SolvMenuInit (program is for *48* only!): When *not* to use SolvMenuInit: [r->] [OFF] . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== Subject: Re: Using a menu for input (INMENU) > Here's a very simple, informal way to ask for input using a menu: { list of variable names } INMENU The new command INMENU has been added to my personalized PRG / IN menu. Raul ==== Subject: RPL to SysRpl - HELP! I would appreciate it if someone could convert me this simple RPL task to SysRpl. DO DO 1 SRECV DROP2 TICKS DUP ROT - B->R 64290.816 SWAP / SWAP + Km/h. + 3 DISP 'j' INCR DROP UNTIL KEY END UNTIL 13 == END Tal ==== Subject: axes in fast3d , i would like to have axes, when i am drawing equations in fast3d, is there a chance to get them? Thanx ==== Subject: Re: axes in fast3d No, when you draw the axes, things gets really too cluttered and dificult to read. This is why I setteled on the small 3 axis indication at the bottom left of the display. > , i would like to have axes, when i am drawing equations in fast3d, is there a > chance to get them? Thanx ==== Subject: Staus of hp.calc.org Does anyone know the status of hp.calc.org? When I tried to download a program I got a message currently down. Are the mirror sites working? Also when I finally get a response and used Gozilla to download a file it keeps trying,but never connects. Harold A. Climer Dept. of Physics,Geology and Astronomy U. Tennessee at Chattanooga ==== Subject: Re: Staus of hp.calc.org Originator: brentb@io.com (Brent Burton) | Does anyone know the status of hp.calc.org? | When I tried to download a program I got a message currently down. Do you mean www.hpcalc.org? That was fine yesterday. -bpb -- remove underscores to respond via email ==== Subject: Emu48 issue running 49 prom I have the following issue : I run a W2K machine. Emu48 works fine with 48 PROM and skins, but crashes with 49 prom and skins. I tried all sorts of releases of prom, including 1.19-6 and all sorts of skins, always the same issue. Any idea ? Herve ==== Subject: Re: Emu48 issue running 49 prom Try to re-download a new ROM from the internet My W2000 works fine (I emulate only the 49G) VPN > I have the following issue : > I run a W2K machine. Emu48 works fine with 48 PROM and skins, but > crashes with 49 prom and skins. I tried all sorts of releases of prom, > including 1.19-6 and all sorts of skins, always the same issue. > Any idea ? > Herve ==== Subject: Re: Emu48 issue running 49 prom Yes, but from where ? Any address to recommend ? Hrerve Veli-Pekka Nousiainen a .8ecrit dans le message de > Try to re-download a new ROM from the internet > My W2000 works fine (I emulate only the 49G) > VPN >I have the following issue : >I run a W2K machine. Emu48 works fine with 48 PROM and skins, but >crashes with 49 prom and skins. I tried all sorts of releases of prom, >including 1.19-6 and all sorts of skins, always the same issue. >Any idea ? >Herve ==== Subject: Re: Emu48 issue running 49 prom www.hpcalc.org > Yes, but from where ? Any address to recommend ? > Hrerve Veli-Pekka Nousiainen a .8ecrit dans le message de >Try to re-download a new ROM from the internet >My W2000 works fine (I emulate only the 49G) >VPN >> I have the following issue : >> I run a W2K machine. Emu48 works fine with 48 PROM and skins, but >> crashes with 49 prom and skins. I tried all sorts of releases of prom, >> including 1.19-6 and all sorts of skins, always the same issue. >> Any idea ? >> Herve > > ==== Subject: Connect an HP49 to a computeur via a modem I have no more serial port on my computer so I would like to know if it is possible to make a cable to connect my HP49 via my internal modem (and then use an XModem software)? I have been looking for the connections, but I didn't find them. Can anybody help? Arthur ==== Subject: Re: Connect an HP49 to a computeur via a modem Yes it is, but why don't you buy an USB-Serial converter? VPN I have no more serial port on my computer so I would like to know if it > is possible to make a cable to connect my HP49 via my internal modem > (and then use an XModem software)? > I have been looking for the connections, but I didn't find them. Can > anybody help? > Arthur ==== Subject: Is a 48G suitable for me? This is my first time posting to this group, most likely because I don't even own a HP calculator (yet). I am going into 3rd year Electrical Engineering and so far I have gotten by with a casio scientific calc. Up to this point I really havent had a need for anything else, any assignments involving matrices greater than 3x3 I solved on my computer... Many tests I have written did not allow the use of calculators and the ones that did prohibited graphing calcs for the most part, but this may not be the case in third year... Even though I may not get to use a graphing calc on tests, I still believe it is something an Engineer should have... I have been looking around on the web for a while and it appears that the 48G series is the main choice of Engineers. My main concern with this is that it uses the RPN system, which I have had no experience with before. My lack of experience is not my main concern though... I am worried that if I take the time to learn how to use RPN and use it for all my assignments and calculations, that when it comes down to test time and I have to use my scientific calc, I will have frogotten how to use it (well maybe not that extreme) but I will not be as proficient at using it or familiar with the operations as I used to be, putting me at a disadvantage during the test. If anyone has had a similar experience as this, I would be grateful to hear about it and their opinion on the matter (recommend a different calc?). Also, if I were to buy a 48G series calculator, which would be the most reasonable one to get? Are there significant differences between the 48G and the G+, and would it be worth it for someone in my situation to spend the extra money for a 48GX? -Adrian ==== Subject: Re: Is a 48G suitable for me? It depends on your style of solving problems whether getting a better calculator would be worth it. To be sure, the HP is better than Casio. I don't think anyone would seriously mount an argument to the contrary. Recently I've found myself engrossed in circuit simulators and MatLAB, so my calculator is starting to feel neglected. As far as using an algebraic/scientific for tests, I think if you started using an HP 48, you would find it worth your while to invest in a RPN/scientific calculator, because it really is faster at crunching numbers. If you only want to use a scientific (non graphing), I think I would even suggest going to an RPN based calc. I fell in love with RPN when I got my first HP. I used to use algebraic, but I make a lot of mistakes now if I try to go back to an algebraic calculator. However, I do know some people who have made a point of being able to easily use both algebraic and RPN. -------------- Erek Hutto Electrical Engineering Colorado School of Mines -------------- ==== Subject: Re: Is a 48G suitable for me? > My main concern is that it uses the RPN system, > with which I have had no experience before. > I am worried that if I take the time to learn how to use RPN, > when I have to use my scientific calc, > I will have forgotten how to use it. Have you ridden a bike? Driven a car? Forgot how to ride the bike? RPN is so simple and easy a thing to grasp, that in fact, all calculators were once RPN! > Are there significant differences between the 48G and the G+ > and would it be worth it for someone in my situation > to spend the extra money for a 48GX? (it's sometimes found next to a 640K PC, I guess :) (and there's a good reason to get that first 128K separately) Tons of software comes in library form, How come you didn't ask about a 49G? (I've got one with nice stiff rubber keys, a scratched window, a serial port that won't transfer data, no IR -- want it? ((o)) . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== Subject: Re: Is a 48G suitable for me? X > Tons of software comes in library form, *included* in the price !!! > How come you didn't ask about a 49G? > (I've got one with nice stiff rubber keys, a scratched window, > a serial port that won't transfer data, no IR -- want it? The new CN models has better keyboard, hard screen cover no serial port bug (since ID94...) and the IR remains missing. Veli-Pekka - I'll take that HP 49G of yours, John, any day ==== Subject: Re: Is a 48G suitable for me? I think he must have already given it to me, because it's the exact same description as the one I have. -------------- Erek Hutto Electrical Engineering Colorado School of Mines -------------- ==== Subject: Re: Is a 48G suitable for me? > This is my first time posting to this group Wellcome Adrian: I'll be brief: I ever thougt the 48 is slow. I don't say when calculating but working: editing programs is boring, the matrices and equations editors are slooow... BUT Metakernel changes all, so I recommend you a 48GX+Metakernel (you will need a 128kb in slot1) or a 49G (MK is installed in its ROM) You can cheap and good (I hope!) cards here: http://uuhome.de/oklotz/index_e.html Raul (48GX+MK user) ==== Subject: Re: Is a 48G suitable for me? Have the best from both worlds and buy the HP 49G. It has both the RPN plus a Casio-like Algebraic system. AND it has a nicely integrated fast Equation Writer in which you can write equations in pretty print = textbook style One more thing: both HP 48 and HP 49 are the fastest around on numeric matrices. 48G is not sold - at least in Finland - any more 48G+ is a far better choice. The 48 series keyboard has a better key click. The 49G has 1024KB of user Flash for storing extension libraries, programs, data and it doesn't need batteries and I have never managed to wipe it out after the latest commercial version 1.18. (The 1.14-n series had this problem once or twice) The 49G Flash ROM is upgradeable. You can now re-flash it to 1.19-6 Beta which is the best with a lot of enhancements. These extra capabilities of the 49G makes it the best value buy of price/memory or price/functionality Veli-Pekka X > anything else, any assignments involving matrices greater than 3x3 I X > this is that it uses the RPN system, which I have had no experience X > between the 48G and the G+, and would it be worth it for someone in my > situation to spend the extra money for a 48GX? > -Adrian ==== Subject: Re: Is a 48G suitable for me? Adrian, Both the 48 and 49 are powerful calculators. The 48 has a keyboard with positive feel and if you have the 48GX with extra memory together with downloadable software from various sources it's capabilities almost match those of the 49. The 49G is more powerful out of the box. The documentation is terrible by traditional HP standards. However, there are 3rd party guides, books and manuals to help you. There are many similar sources for the 48 too - often from the same authors as the 49 literature. If you can, find people who already use these calculators. Second best option is to try them in a store. Learning RPN is not difficult. And you won't forget the other (algebraic) entry method so don't worry about that. My personal preference would be a 48G+, but ask other owners. You may get more feedback from this group to help you decide. I don't know exactly where you live, but it looks like it is Canada from your e-mail address. I was in Toronto in June and there were good deals at stores for the 48G+ on Yonge Street. Mark. > Have the best from both worlds and buy the HP 49G. > It has both the RPN plus a Casio-like Algebraic system. > AND it has a nicely integrated fast Equation Writer > in which you can write equations in pretty print = textbook style One more thing: both HP 48 and HP 49 are > the fastest around on numeric matrices. 48G is not sold - at least in Finland - any more > 48G+ is a far better choice. > The 48 series keyboard has a better key click. The 49G has 1024KB of user Flash for storing > extension libraries, programs, data and it doesn't > need batteries and I have never managed to wipe > it out after the latest commercial version 1.18. > (The 1.14-n series had this problem once or twice) > The 49G Flash ROM is upgradeable. > You can now re-flash it to 1.19-6 Beta > which is the best with a lot of enhancements. These extra capabilities of the 49G makes it the best > value buy of price/memory or price/functionality Veli-Pekka X >anything else, any assignments involving matrices greater than 3x3 I > X >this is that it uses the RPN system, which I have had no experience > X >between the 48G and the G+, and would it be worth it for someone in my >situation to spend the extra money for a 48GX? > -Adrian ==== Subject: Xpander and some thoughts. everyone, Most of you talk about the need of a keyboard for a handheld device to use it as a real calculator. The HP Xpander has (or had) a keyboard, but it missed a lot of features. Ok, ok, it was a Educational device, not a calculator. Have you thought about the posibility of an educational device like Xpander, with a keyboard layout mix between a basic calculator and a mobile phone for text input? Many keys would be saved, and it could look like Xpander... I know, most of you are calling me mad now, and maybe Casio is not a good example, but: http://www.casio.co.jp/release/2002/images/dt_5100/dt5100_02L.jpg Add an easy interface like hp40 one and some keys to access i.e. math menu, or a menu key (like Xpander one that would open first item from menu bar)... Add Giac/Xcas to it. You could continue calling me mad, but maybe, I am not the only one. J.Manrique http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique Users Club from Gij.97n http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu #1077 HPCC Member http://www.hpcc.org ==== Subject: Re: Xpander and some thoughts. , how about this? http://www.cs.queensu.ca/drl/ffes/ i think the ipaq has a tcl/tk app. could this be used with XCAS? > everyone, Most of you talk about the need of a keyboard for a handheld device to > use it as a real calculator. The HP Xpander has (or had) a keyboard, > but it missed a lot of features. Ok, ok, it was a Educational > device, not a calculator. Have you thought about the posibility of an educational device like > Xpander, with a keyboard layout mix between a basic calculator and a > mobile phone for text input? Many keys would be saved, and it could > look like Xpander... I know, most of you are calling me mad now, and maybe Casio is not a > good example, but: > http://www.casio.co.jp/release/2002/images/dt_5100/dt5100_02L.jpg Add an easy interface like hp40 one and some keys to access i.e. math > menu, or a menu key (like Xpander one that would open first item from > menu bar)... Add Giac/Xcas to it. You could continue calling me mad, but maybe, I am not the only one. J.Manrique > http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique > Users Club from Gij.97n > http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu > #1077 HPCC Member > http://www.hpcc.org ==== Subject: Re: Xpander and some thoughts. Yes, I've been seeing this method sometime ago, and I like it, but not for a handheld. I mean that it would ok for a TabletPC or similar screen, but for a reduced screen like the one in a handheld, I would prefer a gesture recognition like xstroke, defining some chars like math operations, where you write each char and is recognized : http://www.east.isi.edu/projects/DSN/xstroke/ And anyway, a keyboard is needed... each day I am more convinced.. Touchscreens and recognition gesture is nice, but you depends on a stylus or similar, and a keyboard makes you easy to type and programming. J.Manrique http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique Users Club from Gij.97n http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu #1077 HPCC Member http://www.hpcc.org > , how about this? http://www.cs.queensu.ca/drl/ffes/ i think the ipaq has a tcl/tk app. could this be used with XCAS? > everyone, >Most of you talk about the need of a keyboard for a handheld device to >use it as a real calculator. The HP Xpander has (or had) a keyboard, >but it missed a lot of features. Ok, ok, it was a Educational >device, not a calculator. >Have you thought about the posibility of an educational device like >Xpander, with a keyboard layout mix between a basic calculator and a >mobile phone for text input? Many keys would be saved, and it could >look like Xpander... >I know, most of you are calling me mad now, and maybe Casio is not a >good example, but: >http://www.casio.co.jp/release/2002/images/dt_5100/dt5100_02L.jpg >Add an easy interface like hp40 one and some keys to access i.e. math >menu, or a menu key (like Xpander one that would open first item from >menu bar)... Add Giac/Xcas to it. >You could continue calling me mad, but maybe, I am not the only one. >J.Manrique >http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique >Users Club from Gij.97n >http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu >#1077 HPCC Member >http://www.hpcc.org ==== Subject: Re: Xpander and some thoughts. > And anyway, a keyboard is needed... each day I am more convinced.. > Touchscreens and recognition gesture is nice, but you depends on a > stylus or similar, and a keyboard makes you easy to type and > programming. I remember some on here talking about developing a calculator to carry on what HP dropped. I actually think a custom keyboard for a handheld is best. We hav all of tehse qwerty keyboards taht are too big or too hard to type on. What they should make i a small keyboard that attaches to teh calculator for basic functions andt hen functions keys and then use graffiti/onscreen buttons for the rest ==== Subject: Re: Xpander and some thoughts. I have a Siemens SL45i, which meets many criteria. - Big display - hard plastic, backlit keys - numeric keypad - alphanumeric keys - calculator built-in - expandable to at least 128MB (Megabytes!) flash via MMC - downloadable applications (mainly games - programmable in Java, so make your own RPN calc - built-in MP3-player - Infrared and serial (&USB) communications BTW: the Siemens SL45i is a mobile GSM phone, and one of the best I've seen so far. Raymond J.Manrique Lopez de la Fuente schrieb im Newsbeitrag > everyone, Most of you talk about the need of a keyboard for a handheld device to > use it as a real calculator. The HP Xpander has (or had) a keyboard, > but it missed a lot of features. Ok, ok, it was a Educational > device, not a calculator. Have you thought about the posibility of an educational device like > Xpander, with a keyboard layout mix between a basic calculator and a > mobile phone for text input? Many keys would be saved, and it could > look like Xpander... I know, most of you are calling me mad now, and maybe Casio is not a > good example, but: > http://www.casio.co.jp/release/2002/images/dt_5100/dt5100_02L.jpg Add an easy interface like hp40 one and some keys to access i.e. math > menu, or a menu key (like Xpander one that would open first item from > menu bar)... Add Giac/Xcas to it. You could continue calling me mad, but maybe, I am not the only one. J.Manrique > http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique > Users Club from Gij.97n > http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu > #1077 HPCC Member > http://www.hpcc.org ==== Subject: Re: Xpander and some thoughts. > I have a Siemens SL45i, ...and I have a Nokia 6310i, also with Java > - calculator built-in Oh, but not that advanced though > - expandable to at least 128MB (Megabytes!) flash via MMC Yes, this is pretty extraordinary. > - programmable in Java, so make your own RPN calc But Java2ME is very limited, and the phones can hardly be called fast at execution Java byte code :-/ The SDKs are crappy too. It's a great step though, but we're certainly not there yet. Steen ==== Subject: Re: Xpander and some thoughts. Forget Java, unless the processor directly supports it or a decent JIT compiler generates some pretty good Xscale machine code. A real keyboard would be nice. I'll take HP 200LX with calculator functions on keytops any day. (naturally with a real calculator software inside) VPN >I have a Siemens SL45i, ...and I have a Nokia 6310i, also with Java > - calculator built-in Oh, but not that advanced though > - expandable to at least 128MB (Megabytes!) flash via MMC Yes, this is pretty extraordinary. > - programmable in Java, so make your own RPN calc But Java2ME is very limited, and the phones can hardly be called fast at > execution Java byte code :-/ The SDKs are crappy too. It's a great step > though, but we're certainly not there yet. Steen > ==== Subject: Re: Xpander and some thoughts. > Forget Java, unless the processor directly supports it > or a decent JIT compiler generates some pretty good > Xscale machine code. Been there, done that! I believe (or hope, I don't know) that Java will soon die a silent death. Steen ==== Subject: Re: Xpander and some thoughts. Java...die? I don't think so. Personally, I'm a .NET fan and wouldn't mind it happening, but Java is just too well established. Highly doubtful. Doug >Forget Java, unless the processor directly supports it >or a decent JIT compiler generates some pretty good >Xscale machine code. Been there, done that! I believe (or hope, I don't know) that Java will soon > die a silent death. Steen > ==== Subject: Re: Xpander and some thoughts. , > Java...die? I don't think so. Personally, I'm a .NET fan and wouldn't mind > it happening, but Java is just too well established. Highly doubtful. Doug >Forget Java, unless the processor directly supports it >> or a decent JIT compiler generates some pretty good >> Xscale machine code. Been there, done that! I believe (or hope, I don't know) that Java will > soon >die a silent death. Steen ==== Subject: Re: Xpander and some thoughts. Sorry, I was referring to Java outside the client. > , >Java...die? I don't think so. Personally, I'm a .NET fan and wouldn't mind >it happening, but Java is just too well established. Highly doubtful. Doug > Forget Java, unless the processor directly supports it >>or a decent JIT compiler generates some pretty good >>Xscale machine code. Been there, done that! I believe (or hope, I don't know) that Java will > soon >> die a silent death. Steen >> ==== Subject: Re: Xpander and some thoughts. Java - on desktop? No way, but... on PDA/SDA/PPC/HPC as a means of running CAS? Yes! VPN > Java...die? I don't think so. Personally, I'm a .NET fan and wouldn't mind > it happening, but Java is just too well established. Highly doubtful. Doug >Forget Java, unless the processor directly supports it >> or a decent JIT compiler generates some pretty good >> Xscale machine code. Been there, done that! I believe (or hope, I don't know) that Java will > soon >die a silent death. Steen > > ==== Subject: [OT].NET:Re: Xpander and some thoughts. Why .NET? There is a free alternative called Mono, and it works in Linux and MS Windows systems... I have some emails from Miguel de Icaza (gnome and mono father) about creating a light weight mono for handhelds, something like Compact .NET Framework from MS. More info about it: http://www.go-mono.org And Java is not free... J.Manrique > Java...die? I don't think so. Personally, I'm a .NET fan and wouldn't mind > it happening, but Java is just too well established. Highly doubtful. Doug >Forget Java, unless the processor directly supports it >> or a decent JIT compiler generates some pretty good >> Xscale machine code. Been there, done that! I believe (or hope, I don't know) that Java will > soon >die a silent death. Steen ==== Subject: Donnelly SysRPL book and accompanying disk Owners of An Introduction to HP 48 System RPL and Assembly Language Programming by Jim Donnelly, I have checked out Jim Donnelly's SysRPL book from the library along with the program disk. However, it seems the library has not been careful with the disk because it is unreadable. They have also lost whatever backup they might have kept. It appears that these programs have not been put on hpcalc.org. What are the copying restrictions of the programs on the disk? Would it be legal for them to be posted somewhere by an owner of the book? If not, what about this: if I give my word to return my only copy to the library with the book, would anyone feel comfortable making a copy available privately? Karl. ==== Subject: Re: Donnelly SysRPL book and accompanying disk > I have checked out Jim Donnelly's SysRPL book from the library along > with the program disk. However, it seems the library has not been > careful with the disk because it is unreadable. They have also lost > whatever backup they might have kept. It appears that these programs have not been put on hpcalc.org. What are the copying restrictions of the programs on the disk? Would > it be legal for them to be posted somewhere by an owner of the book? Good news! I asked Jim Donnelly about this, and he graciously gave permission for all of the book's example programs to be made freely available on the Web! You can download it from here: http://HolyJoe.org/HP48.htm#graybook Enjoy! -Joe- joehorn@jps.net http://HolyJoe.org ==== Hi! I am concidering to upgrade my already upgraded HP48G with additional Farnell, but it costs around $70 (+$11 shipping to Estonia from -- Tiismus ==== Tiismus :: > I am concidering to upgrade my already upgraded HP48G with > from Farnell, but it costs around $70 (+$11 shipping to Estonia from Time has come for more direct question: Does anyone know of places which responces saying that it should be possible to get such chip for less than $20, but nothing about where they reside. Tiismus. ==== Subject: emacs or extable : #3020A is compilate as %%< , but work. the error is with extable or emacs (19-6) GaaK ==== I'm about to buy one of their cards and wanted to know from people who currently use their cards if they like them or if they have come across any problems. I'm looking to get either the 2MB or the 4MB card. Any thoughts or comments? Doug ==== > I'm about to buy one of their cards and wanted to know from people who > currently use their cards if they like them or if they have come across any > problems. I'm looking to get either the 2MB or the 4MB card. Klotz make good cards (and close to the only ones you can still get :-), but stick with the 2Mb card, as 4Mb isn't supported directly by the calculator. Steen ==== Cards for 48GX slot 2 may be up to 4MB (although final port 33 will not be accessible, due to a bug), but it has been noted that the more you store in ports (or else merely the more ports exist, I forget which), the slower the calc will start at every turn-on, because all ports have to be scanned at turn-on to detect any content change, which requires a complete library re-inventory (via warmstart) if detected. Larger cards offer only more library storage (or storage for memory backups and seldom-used data), so at some point, cost and slowness will offset the total potential available software/backup storage space. [r->] [OFF] . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== > Cards for 48GX slot 2 may be up to 4MB > (although final port 33 will not be accessible, due to a bug), > but it has been noted that the more you store in ports > (or else merely the more ports exist, I forget which), > the slower the calc will start at every turn-on, > because all ports have to be scanned at turn-on > to detect any content change, which requires > a complete library re-inventory (via warmstart) if detected. Larger cards offer only more library storage > (or storage for memory backups and seldom-used data), > so at some point, cost and slowness will offset > the total potential available software/backup storage space. [r->] [OFF] > But using a fast off assigned to key 91.3, avoids this problem at all. Raul ==== I meant to ask this earlier, but what exactly does covered and uncovered ports mean? Doug >I'm about to buy one of their cards and wanted to know from people who >currently use their cards if they like them or if they have come across > any >problems. I'm looking to get either the 2MB or the 4MB card. Klotz make good cards (and close to the only ones you can still get :-), but > stick with the 2Mb card, as 4Mb isn't supported directly by the calculator. Steen > ==== Is there some kind of performance hit with the 4MB card? If its not directly supported, how does the calculator recognize and use it? Just Doug >I'm about to buy one of their cards and wanted to know from people who >currently use their cards if they like them or if they have come across > any >problems. I'm looking to get either the 2MB or the 4MB card. Klotz make good cards (and close to the only ones you can still get :-), but > stick with the 2Mb card, as 4Mb isn't supported directly by the calculator. Steen > ==== Think about it as a 3.5MB card instead It's still more than 2MB :-D VPN > Is there some kind of performance hit with the 4MB card? If its not > directly supported, how does the calculator recognize and use it? Just Doug >I'm about to buy one of their cards and wanted to know from people who >> currently use their cards if they like them or if they have come across >any >> problems. I'm looking to get either the 2MB or the 4MB card. Klotz make good cards (and close to the only ones you can still get :-), > but >stick with the 2Mb card, as 4Mb isn't supported directly by the > calculator. Steen > > ==== The 4MB Klotz card contains 32 ports, but makes only 30 ports available at a time (a switch selects which two of the last four ports are used). What's this curious statement in the Klotz PDF file: http://uuhome.de/oklotz/hp4096ae.pdf Putting the card into a HP48SX or in slot 1 of one of these calculators will cause no damage of card or your HP but you will have access only to 1 port of 128kb. Do they have some way to avoid damaging the calc LCD, as usually happens whenever > 512K is mistakenly put in slot 1, or to prevent the slightly arbitrary selection of which 128K gets seen at different times whenever > 128K is put in slot 1? [r->] [OFF] . http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ==== > Is there some kind of performance hit with the 4MB card? If its not > directly supported, how does the calculator recognize and use it? Just I think there is a bug in the 48 OS and the calc can't use all the ports. You'll find some info about this here: http://uuhome.de/oklotz/hp4096ae.pdf About covered and uncovered ports: the first 256k (ports 0 and 1) are uncovered ports and some prgs need being installed here, because they are always visible to the microprocessor. Most of prgs, can be in ports >=2. Raul ==== wait... Doug > Is there some kind of performance hit with the 4MB card? If its not >directly supported, how does the calculator recognize and use it? Just I think there is a bug in the 48 OS and the calc can't use all the ports. > You'll find some info about this here: http://uuhome.de/oklotz/hp4096ae.pdf About covered and uncovered ports: the first 256k (ports 0 and 1) are > uncovered ports and some prgs need being installed here, because they are > always visible to the microprocessor. > Most of prgs, can be in ports >=2. Raul ==== > wait... You will enjoy... Raul ==== > Any thoughts or comments? No problems with the mine (1Mb) Raul ==== > I'm about to buy one of their cards and wanted to know from people who > currently use their cards if they like them or if they have come across any > problems. I'm looking to get either the 2MB or the 4MB card. Any thoughts or comments? really good ramcards. I bought for my 48gx a 128Kb and a 1Mb cards. Acrux, Italy ==== really good ramcards. I bought for my 48gx a 128Kb and a 1Mb cards. Acrux, Italy Could you tell me where you bought them in Italy and the price you paid for them? Thanx -- Marco Polo (red october)marko_ramius@softhome.net Remove (red october) to E-Mail..... --- ==== really good ramcards. I bought for my 48gx a 128Kb and a 1Mb cards. Acrux, Italy > Could you tell me where you bought them in Italy and the price you > paid for them? > Thanx > yes, i hope help u I've not found those ones in Italy. Klotz is in Dusseldorf (Germany) and i brought them, two years ago, by email and as payment method the bank transfer. This is his webpage: http:// uuhome.de/ oklotz/index_e.html see ya, Acrux Napoli ==== Subject: No Power Has anyone had a problem with their HP48GX not powering up? Has been working well for many years but for some reason it won't turn on. Yes, I replaced the batteries :) ==== Subject: Re: No Power let all the charge drain. this may take more than 24 hours without the batteries in the calc. shorting the +- in the calc should help too! be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== Subject: Re: No Power Try holding down the ON key and while holding down the ON key click on the + key several times to darken the display. Just a shot in the dark... Doug > Has anyone had a problem with their HP48GX not powering up? Has been working well for many years but for some reason it won't turn on. > Yes, I replaced the batteries :) > ==== Subject: Re: No Power Another solution may be the pinhole reset. Raymond Douglas Rohm schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Try holding down the ON key and while holding down the ON key click on the + > key several times to darken the display. Just a shot in the dark... Doug > Has anyone had a problem with their HP48GX not powering up? Has been working well for many years but for some reason it won't turn on. >Yes, I replaced the batteries :) > ==== were missing from Carsten Dominik's entry database prompted me to take up a task that I intended to do at one time but forgot about. (ie. put off ;) I've compiled a list in HPTOOLS assembler format of all the a new Jazz entry tables library containing these new entries. Since Hpcalc seems to be slow lately I've temporarily made this ==== Distribution: world Hi Jonathan, thank you very much for these files. Thomas and I have integrated the information into the general database at http://zon.astro.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/entries/ - Carsten JB> were missing from Carsten Dominik's entry database prompted me to take JB> up a task that I intended to do at one time but forgot about. (ie. put JB> off ;) I've compiled a list in HPTOOLS assembler format of all the JB> a new Jazz entry tables library containing these new entries. JB> Since Hpcalc seems to be slow lately I've temporarily made this JB> available via web space provided by my ISP. JB> Here is the link : http://home.houston.rr.com/busby2/jdb/ ==== > were missing from Carsten Dominik's entry database prompted me to take > up a task that I intended to do at one time but forgot about. (ie. put > off ;) I've compiled a list in HPTOOLS assembler format of all the > a new Jazz entry tables library containing these new entries. Since Hpcalc seems to be slow lately I've temporarily made this > available via web space provided by my ISP. > Here is the link : http://home.houston.rr.com/busby2/jdb/ > ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Nick. ==== Subject: Re: I'm Tired Of The US Bashing In This Newsgroup