B4 ==== short answer to your problem: Please _remove_ the Patch BEEP.49G line in your KML script. The ROM is patched for beep emulation. But I must confess that one Emu48 version, but I don't know which one (any final or beta in the last time) made the PATCH changes permanent on my systems. In such case I update the ROM on the PC with the upd49rom.exe tool to fix this. > When I came across my old serial# ID93... 49G > (the units which have the incredible serial port hardware bug) > in a packing case, where it has been sitting for a year or two, > and found a PC which can still communicate with it, > I decided to have a go at upgrading it from 1.17 to 1.19-6, > and since I already have 1.19-6 on my emulator, > why not, I thought, just type a ROMUPLOAD command > on that emulator, and let it upload its rom to my real calc? Apparently this was not so great an idea after all, > System may not be installed properly on the calculator, > when I select Download Pack as instructed, I do not get > System Present, as assumed by the instructions; > instead I get Error - Full Check Bad CRC, > while the emulator still waits for something else to happen. Testing Full ROM [#7] on the calculator now gives, > sure enough, Object with bad CRC, Bank 1 After wasting more time erasing banks again and repeating, > with identical results, I finally thought to try the Full ROM > test on the emulator -- bingo! the emulator's ROM also has that > same bad CRC in its own bank 1, even though it has been > operating all this while. It is possible, I reflect, that I may have applied the last > ROM updates to the emulator using program upd49rom.exe > (which updates the emulator's rom.e49 file from a .flash file), > so perhaps I should go back and reinstall the emulator's original > ROM, for comparison, without relying on that program at all. So now I'm setting aside my current rom.e49 (or rom.49g) file, > I'm copying the original 1.19-6 emulator ROM file (possibly from > epita.fr?) in its place, and I'm restarting the emulator, > and guess what -- already an Object with bad CRC, Bank 1, > although this is the *original* emulator ROM file for 1.19-6, > untouched by anyone, directly downloaded from the source. I also did another 1.19-6 download from www.hpcalc.org > and got identical md5 checksums on its emulator rom file > which was dated 2001/10/03: d5fddb6f16b443b6749a36996b1053f8 rom.49g [new] > d5fddb6f16b443b6749a36996b1053f8 rom.e49 [old] The flash files also match: d881753cebe3318f86e5b5615e301ebf hp49119-6.flash [new] > d881753cebe3318f86e5b5615e301ebf hp491196.fla [my old one] But the emulator ROM file apparently comes with a built-in > Object with bad CRC, Bank 1, > and this in turn appears to infect any calculator > which tries to download ROM from the emulator. Is there any way to fix the bad ROM in the emulator? I thought perhaps to try to re-upload to Emu48 a good ROM from my > calculator (meanwhile re-updated via FDP.EXE from the flash file), > but I can't seem to get the emulator to go into that mode > which is required to get to the no system menu. Any ideas? Ciao. > . ==== > Please _remove_ the Patch BEEP.49G line in your KML script. This indeed corrects the Bad CRC in Bank 1, thanks! I wonder whether there exists a second patch which could correct the CRC to match the first patch (perhaps by changing something other than the CRC itself, so that it could remain constant for all ROM versions)? . ==== John H Meyers schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Please _remove_ the Patch BEEP.49G line in your KML script. This indeed corrects the Bad CRC in Bank 1, thanks! I wonder whether there exists a second patch > which could correct the CRC to match the first patch > (perhaps by changing something other than the CRC itself, > so that it could remain constant for all ROM versions)? Changing another unused byte(s) to get the correct CRC is quite impossible, therefore we use CRC's to protect the data. The only solution is to modify the CRC itself. The calculation methods, or better the position of the CRC's are different in the calculators emulated by Emu48, so there's no general solution. When you know the position of the CRC in ROM you can patch the CRC by the same way like the beep patch (by adding one or more lines in the patch file). And here you are right, that only works for one ROM revision. I use this method in the HP28C skin for Emu28 for example. In a Lewis chip family calculator emulator (not published) I use the technique that after patching (and only then) all ROM CRC's are automatically updated. This is possible because all emulated calculators (with only one very minor exception) use the same calculation scheme and the same positions of the CRC's in ROM. ==== > Changing another unused byte(s) to get the correct CRC is quite impossible, Why is it quite impossible? In a block of data, a change to a bit in any position (byte and bit) has a predictable effect on the bits of the CRC. While it may not be the case that a single byte change can be found to get the desired CRC, it is almost certainly possible to find a small number of changes to unused bytes to obtain any desired CRC. ==== > Why is it quite impossible? In a block of data, a change to a bit in > any position (byte and bit) has a predictable effect on the bits of the > CRC. While it may not be the case that a single byte change can be > found to get the desired CRC, it is almost certainly possible to find a > small number of changes to unused bytes to obtain any desired CRC. The idea of a CRC is that it is impossible and not just *quite* impossible to get the same CRC for a block when changing only one byte in it ==== > Why is it quite impossible? In a block of data, a change to a bit in > any position (byte and bit) has a predictable effect on the bits of the > CRC. While it may not be the case that a single byte change can be > found to get the desired CRC, it is almost certainly possible to find a > small number of changes to unused bytes to obtain any desired CRC. > The idea of a CRC is that it is impossible and not just *quite* impossible > to get the same CRC for a block when changing only one byte in it True. But that wasn't the question that was posed. If you patch one byte in a CRC'd block, can you find another unused byte to change that will make the block come out to the same CRC? In general, if you have only one unused byte to work with, the answer is no. However, it is not that difficult to come up with changes to a small number of unused bytes that will result in the desired CRC. Each individual bit of the data block changes a particular subset of bits in the CRC, such that flipping that data bit flips the corresponding CRC bits. The precise mapping of the data bits to the CRC bits is determined by the CRC polynomial. This characteristic is why a CRC should not be used as a MAC (Message Authentication Code) for encrypted communication, and is part of the reason that WEP (Wired-Equivalent Privacy) on encrypted 802.11 wireless traffic is so easy to crack. ==== > In the 20 essential things to know about the 49G, It talks about changing > the Keytime. I have two questions about this: First, what is the default > setting? And secondly, Could someone explain how to change the setting a > little clearer? I believe it says to type in the number you want the Keytime > to be set to ie> 300 and then you would type in 300->KEYTIME and push enter. > This won't seem to work for me in Algebraic or RPN. Maybe there's somewhere > else you do this? > Well, it works perfectly for me. What makes you think it doesn't? You can check if it works, by doing what you described above, that is > by entering 300 ->KEYTIME and then using the command KEYTIME-> which > should return the same number like that you used (300). Notice that there is no space between the character -> and the rest > of the command ->KEYTIME. (It isn't STO). You can get the character > -> on the cammnd line by pressing the keys [alpha], then > [red-shift], then [0]. Greetings, > Nick. I see my problem now, I was putting in a minus sign and a greater-than sign Alex. ==== > In the 20 essential things to know about the 49G, It talks about > changing > the Keytime. I have two questions about this: First, what is the default > setting? And secondly, Could someone explain how to change the setting a > little clearer? I believe it says to type in the number you want the > Keytime > to be set to ie> 300 and then you would type in 300->KEYTIME and push > enter. > This won't seem to work for me in Algebraic or RPN. Maybe there's > somewhere > else you do this? >Well, it works perfectly for me. What makes you think it doesn't? >You can check if it works, by doing what you described above, that is > by entering 300 ->KEYTIME and then using the command KEYTIME-> which > should return the same number like that you used (300). >Notice that there is no space between the character -> and the rest > of the command ->KEYTIME. (It isn't STO). You can get the character > -> on the cammnd line by pressing the keys [alpha], then > [red-shift], then [0]. >Greetings, > Nick. I see my problem now, I was putting in a minus sign and a greater-than sign > Alex. So it was Alex, sorry for the misunderstanding. Glad to hear that it worked, and hey! guess what my mistake was when I was supposed to enter the character -> for the first time in my life ;-) ==== hi, the ez way is to press EQW and enter what ever you want, then hit enter my two pezs > In algebraic mode, I can enter fractions into a matrix, like 2/3. In RPN > mode I have not found a way to do this. To enter 2/3 I have to enter > 0.6666666 etc. Does anyone know how (or if) I can enter fractions into a > matrix when I am working in RPN mode? I usually do 2 3 / ENTER --Andrew Huey You can also do '2/3' ENTER You can do algebraic entry provided you enclose the > algebraic in tick marks as shown, or you can enter things > using RPN entry mode, in each case followed by ENTER. You can also key in several entries in either format before > pressing the enter key and the HP will parse them correctly. ==== hi NK yea, but maybe some people happen to use it (and i use it sometimes). and if you got a bussines or a very curious girlfriend, then you may want to throw dirt some day. but i seriously doubt anybody need this unless they are in trouble. > the best there is 'eraser' (for windoz): > http://www.tolvanen.com/eraser/ > it also happens to be free :) choose the gutmann method (Peter > Gutmann), which is default http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/sec96/full_papers/gut m ann/ Even better: Don't use M$ ;-) Greetings, > Nick. ==== is turning to a favorite by the by. > hi NK yea, but maybe some people happen to use it (and i use it sometimes). > and if you got a bussines or a very curious girlfriend, then you may > want to throw dirt some day. but i seriously doubt anybody need this > unless they are in trouble. > the best there is 'eraser' (for windoz): > http://www.tolvanen.com/eraser/ > it also happens to be free :) choose the gutmann method (Peter > Gutmann), which is default http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/sec96/full_papers/gut m ann/ Even better: Don't use M$ ;-) Greetings, > Nick. ==== hi NK, HAPPY NEW YEAR to you too :) and to everybody else. i may have sound a little serious. oh well, the pitfalls of writing. is turning to a favorite by the by. Greetings, > Nick. > hi NK yea, but maybe some people happen to use it (and i use it sometimes). > and if you got a bussines or a very curious girlfriend, then you may > want to throw dirt some day. but i seriously doubt anybody need this > unless they are in trouble. <639cb51.0301021103.11195736@posting.google.com>... > the best there is 'eraser' (for windoz): > http://www.tolvanen.com/eraser/ > it also happens to be free :) choose the gutmann method (Peter > Gutmann), which is default http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/sec96/full_papers/gut m ann/ Even better: Don't use M$ ;-) Greetings, > Nick. ==== > I have a 49G calculator with serial number ID94... Ive read a lot > about indonesian models that have poor keyboards/screens but im not > sure if mine does or not because I dont have a chinese model to > compare it to. When I look directly at the screen it seems fine, but > at extreme angles there is a rainbow effect. But you would never be > looking at the calc at these angles. The keyboard also seems stiff > but all 49G's are. Well Kiel, I have a 49G with a screen that I'm pretty sure is a good one because no matter how hard I try I can't get the rainbow effect, but I did recently find these pictures.. http://holyjoe.net/rainbow.htm Only the first two are of the rainbow effect, but I think it should give you an idea of wheather or not you have a bad screen. Alex. ==== Bonsoir, Voici un programme pour mettre un polyn.99me du second degr.8e ax^2+bx+c sous forme canonique c'est-.88-dire a[(x+b/(2a)]^2-delta/(4a^2)] avec delta=b^2-4ac. %%HP: T(1)A(R)F(.); .82 0 ô a b c a1 .82 a 'a1' STO 1 'a' STO b a1 / 'b' STO c a1 / 'c' STO a X 2 ^ * b X * + c + y b 2 / a / EVAL X + = DUP ROT ROT SOLVEVX SUBST DISTRIB EVAL DISTRIB SWAP DUP2 SUBST a1 SWAP * é é Avec les donn.8ees 1 2 10 3 / +/- j'obtiens y^2 - 16/3 y=1+X (1+X)^2-16/3 mais avec 1 2 3 +/- j'obtiens y^2 +-4 y=1+X (1+X)^2+-4 Comment .8eviter l'.8ecriture +-4 ? Merci d'avance pour vos r.8eponses. -- @+ Jean-Marc Rebert jm.rebert@calixo.net ==== Si tu veux .8eviter les ecritures X+-4 ou X--4 il faut que tu testes le signe de ton nombre avant de faire la somme ou diff.8erence. Par exemple: IF DUP 0 >= THEN + Else abs - END pour une addition ou IF DUP 0 > THEN - Else abs + END pour une soustraction avfl2o$s02$1@rex.ip-plus.net... > Bonsoir, > Voici un programme pour mettre un polyn.99me du second degr.8e ax^2+bx+c sous > forme canonique c'est-.88-dire a[(x+b/(2a)]^2-delta/(4a^2)] avec > delta=b^2-4ac. %%HP: T(1)A(R)F(.); > .82 0 ô a b c a1 > .82 a 'a1' STO > 1 'a' STO > b a1 / 'b' STO > c a1 / 'c' STO > a X 2 ^ * b X * + c + > y b 2 / a / EVAL X + = > DUP ROT ROT SOLVEVX > SUBST DISTRIB EVAL DISTRIB > SWAP DUP2 SUBST a1 > SWAP * > é > é > Avec les donn.8ees 1 2 10 3 / +/- j'obtiens > y^2 - 16/3 > y=1+X > (1+X)^2-16/3 > mais avec > 1 2 3 +/- j'obtiens > y^2 +-4 > y=1+X > (1+X)^2+-4 > Comment .8eviter l'.8ecriture +-4 ? > Merci d'avance pour vos r.8eponses. > -- > @+ > Jean-Marc Rebert > jm.rebert@calixo.net ==== Petite faute de frappe, lire 13/3 au lieu de 16/3 avfl2o$s02$1@rex.ip-plus.net... > Bonsoir, > Voici un programme pour mettre un polyn.99me du second degr.8e ax^2+bx+c sous > forme canonique c'est-.88-dire a[(x+b/(2a)]^2-delta/(4a^2)] avec > delta=b^2-4ac. %%HP: T(1)A(R)F(.); > .82 0 ô a b c a1 > .82 a 'a1' STO > 1 'a' STO > b a1 / 'b' STO > c a1 / 'c' STO > a X 2 ^ * b X * + c + > y b 2 / a / EVAL X + = > DUP ROT ROT SOLVEVX > SUBST DISTRIB EVAL DISTRIB > SWAP DUP2 SUBST a1 > SWAP * > é > é > Avec les donn.8ees 1 2 10 3 / +/- j'obtiens > y^2 - 13/3 > y=1+X > (1+X)^2-13/3 > mais avec > 1 2 3 +/- j'obtiens > y^2 +-4 > y=1+X > (1+X)^2+-4 > Comment .8eviter l'.8ecriture +-4 ? > Merci d'avance pour vos r.8eponses. > -- > @+ > Jean-Marc Rebert > jm.rebert@calixo.net ==== :: FPTR 2 A5 DUPLEN$ #5+ #>HXS FPTR 2 A7 88B20 SWAP&$ SWAP&$ FPTR 2 A4 ; the program that return the object is: :: FPTR 2 A5 BINT11 LAST$ FPTR 2 A4 ; supposing that lib 256 is dettach mode. it is correct? suggestions to optimize memory? GaaK ==== I don't know what your program is doing, since I don't use my 49G;-) At least on the HP-48 there's a standard format for 'Library Data'. It's not only the prologue. To construct a LD object, you pass a list of objects, where the first list element is a BINT containing the Library ID, to a suitable function: Internally, the function calculates the list length (or size), then, it replaces the list prolog by the =DOEXT0 prolog, and the BINT *prolog* by the object length . The corresponding LD extractor does the job backwards. This way the extractor can see if the Library Data object fed to it even belongs to its library. As a side effect, the HP-48 routine consumes less memory, and doesn't need to convert a HEX stream from the original object and back, because it all happens 'in place' . Raymond :: > FPTR 2 A5 > DUPLEN$ > #5+ > #>HXS > FPTR 2 A7 > 88B20 > SWAP&$ > SWAP&$ > FPTR 2 A4 > ; the program that return the object is: :: > FPTR 2 A5 > BINT11 > LAST$ > FPTR 2 A4 > ; supposing that lib 256 is dettach mode. it is correct? > suggestions to optimize memory? GaaK ==== > Does this type of graph ring a bell to any of you guys? My Stats book > shows how to do it on the Ti-83, but I'm not sure how/if it can be > done on the 49G. It is used to check a set of data to see if it is > normal distribution. > If a distribution is normal, the plots will be linear. question Re: Normal Probability Plot. The small HP49 UserRPL program below will do the Normal Probability Plot by transforming the Median Rank so it can be plotted on ordinary rectangular axes. The transformation equation can be found in statistics reference material. Input is a LIST of the data in stack Level 1. Output is a scatter plot. The program uses the Stat Matrix of the HP49 so be sure to save any previous data that may be needed later on. Random cheers, Santos Lucero ========================================================= @ NPPLOT49 - Normal Probability Plot for HP49. @ Language: HP49 UserRPL. @ Written by: Santos Lucero rev 1 12/11/01. @ Input: A LIST of data in level 1 of stack. @ Ex: {7.9 3.7 12.5 10.9 13.8 6.6 8.8} @ Output: Normal Probability Plot with input @ data in horizontal axis. @ Affects: (BigSigma)DAT, the Statistical Matrix. @ Previous data in Stat Matrix is wiped @ out! Save previous data if needed!! @ Algorithm: 1. Sort data in ascending order @ 2. n = # of data points; i = 1, 2, ...n @ 3. Find Benard's Median Rank @ p[i] = (i - .3)/(n + .4) @ 4. Transform median rank to plot on @ ordinary rectangular graph @ y[i] = (4.91)(p[i]^.14 - (1-p[i])^.14) @ 5. Scatter plot y[i] vs. SortedData[i] @ Note: V-axis units are standard dev units! @ If hardcopy is needed(???) don't use @ fancy-schmancy paper! Use regular @ rectangular graph paper to plot @ 2nd vs. 1st column of Stat Matrix. @ << SORT DUP SIZE DUP 'X' DUP 1 4 ROLL 1 SEQ .3 - SWAP .4 + / DUP .14 ^ SWAP 1 - NEG .14 ^ - 4.91 * AXL SWAP AXL SWAP 2 COL-> 'GSDAT' STO SCATRPLOT PICTURE > X-Comment-To: ALL ==== I have been having difficulty in finding a way to transferr files between linux and my 49. The ckermit rpm i dowloaded requires glibc 2.3 which I don't have time to download over dialup. Can anyone help? ==== > I have been having difficulty in finding a way to transferr files between > linux and my 49. The ckermit rpm i dowloaded requires glibc 2.3 which I > don't have time to download over dialup. Can anyone help? you can use sx / rx, which is in package lrzsz, like this : sx filename < /dev/ttyS0 > /dev/ttyS0 but on 49, a silly delay happens. I know a software exists which avoids it, but I can't remember its name. Yoann, can you remember ? ++ -- Samuel Thibault ==== > Does anybody know if it is possible to show time&date permanently > (like setting flag -40 on the hp48/49)? AFAIK, you can't with built-in commands ==== Could anyone let me know whether official pdf copies of the HP48G Series User Guide and HP48G Series Advanced User Reference from HP are available for download anywhere? HP Support does not provide them and Google searches have been unsuccessful. (Note: The HP49G guides are available.) I do have Eric Rechlin's HpCalc.org scanned pdf copy of the HP48G Series User Guide (which is much appreciated). However, the HP48G Advanced User Reference does not appear to be available for download in either official or unofficial form anywhere. Rodney ==== Where are the HP 49G guides available? Not at the link given in the manual that comes with it. Although I haven't really looked either... ;) Alex Could anyone let me know whether official pdf copies of the HP48G > Series User Guide and HP48G Series Advanced User Reference from HP > are available for download anywhere? HP Support does not provide them > and Google searches have been unsuccessful. (Note: The HP49G guides > are available.) I do have Eric Rechlin's HpCalc.org scanned pdf copy of the HP48G > Series User Guide (which is much appreciated). However, the HP48G > Advanced User Reference does not appear to be available for download > in either official or unofficial form anywhere. > Rodney ==== There is much documentation at http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/misc/. Just browse the above page and you'll find what you need. > Where are the HP 49G guides available? Not at the link given in the manual > that comes with it. Although I haven't really looked either... ;) > Alex > Could anyone let me know whether official pdf copies of the HP48G > Series User Guide and HP48G Series Advanced User Reference from HP > are available for download anywhere? HP Support does not provide them > and Google searches have been unsuccessful. (Note: The HP49G guides > are available.) >I do have Eric Rechlin's HpCalc.org scanned pdf copy of the HP48G > Series User Guide (which is much appreciated). However, the HP48G > Advanced User Reference does not appear to be available for download > in either official or unofficial form anywhere. > > Rodney ==== I know that all the HP49 documentation (official pdfs) is available at http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=hp49+guides (Alex please note). However, I have searched hpcalc.org (fabulous site!), HP Calculator Museum (hpmuseum.org - another great site), tried Google, etc, but I cannot find the official HP HP48G Series User Guide or any softcopy (even scanned) of the HP48G Advanced User Reference. (Please note, HP48 series). Alas, I fear HP never made these HP48 manuals available in softcopy form at all. Rodney ----------- There is much documentation at http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/misc/. > Just browse the above page and you'll find what you need. Greetings, > Nick. > Where are the HP 49G guides available? Not at the link given in the manual > that comes with it. Although I haven't really looked either... ;) > Alex > Could anyone let me know whether official pdf copies of the HP48G > Series User Guide and HP48G Series Advanced User Reference from HP > are available for download anywhere? HP Support does not provide them > and Google searches have been unsuccessful. (Note: The HP49G guides > are available.) >I do have Eric Rechlin's HpCalc.org scanned pdf copy of the HP48G > Series User Guide (which is much appreciated). However, the HP48G > Advanced User Reference does not appear to be available for download > in either official or unofficial form anywhere. >Rodney ==== > I know that all the HP49 documentation (official pdfs) is available at > http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=hp49+guides (Alex please note). However, I have searched hpcalc.org (fabulous site!), HP Calculator > Museum (hpmuseum.org - another great site), tried Google, etc, but I > cannot find the official HP HP48G Series User Guide or any softcopy > (even scanned) of the HP48G Advanced User Reference. (Please note, > HP48 series). Well, with the exception of the CAS commands, the commands of the machines are identical, aren't they? A big part of the commands of the HP49G can be used on the HP48 series, and so the manuals of the 49 are useful also for 48 users. Am I wrong here? ==== I suffered along with my 49G's documentation until I happened upon the manual for my sister's 48GX. I couldn't have been happier; then I found out about the HP 48G Series Advanced User's Reference Manual and was happier. My sister didn't have a copy, and to my surprise I found that HP was selling the thing for $70 (part 00048-90136; see http://partsurfer.hp.com/cgi-bin/spi/main?partsrch=00048-90136&sel_flg=parti nfo). Apparently manuals appreciate substantially in only a few years. I found that a company called Calc Pro sells the manuals for $29.95 and am eagerly anticipating the arrival of mine. I post this for anyone who would be satisfied with a hardcopy of the manual. Marybe I'll save them some of the searching I had to do. > I know that all the HP49 documentation (official pdfs) is available at > http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=hp49+guides (Alex please note). However, I have searched hpcalc.org (fabulous site!), HP Calculator > Museum (hpmuseum.org - another great site), tried Google, etc, but I > cannot find the official HP HP48G Series User Guide or any softcopy > (even scanned) of the HP48G Advanced User Reference. (Please note, > HP48 series). Alas, I fear HP never made these HP48 manuals available in softcopy > form at all. > Rodney > ----------- > There is much documentation at http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/misc/. > Just browse the above page and you'll find what you need. Greetings, > Nick. > Where are the HP 49G guides available? Not at the link given in the manual > that comes with it. Although I haven't really looked either... ;) > Alex > Could anyone let me know whether official pdf copies of the HP48G > Series User Guide and HP48G Series Advanced User Reference from HP > are available for download anywhere? HP Support does not provide them > and Google searches have been unsuccessful. (Note: The HP49G guides > are available.) >I do have Eric Rechlin's HpCalc.org scanned pdf copy of the HP48G > Series User Guide (which is much appreciated). However, the HP48G > Advanced User Reference does not appear to be available for download > in either official or unofficial form anywhere. >Rodney ==== I can't use my 49g because it is too powerful. 89 is the same, and it has been a LOOOONG time since I have really used my 48gx. Sooo, I just don't remember, can the 48gx do all the symbolic without erable and alg48? I didn't think so, but I just don't remember! Is there anything else on the 48gx that might disqualify it? I really don't want to have to use an algebraic calc, I am just too used to rpn for regular stuff, and I really don't want to have to buy a ti. Matt ==== I can't use my 49g because it is too powerful. 89 is the same, and it > has been a LOOOONG time since I have really used my 48gx. Sooo, I just don't remember, can the 48gx do all the symbolic without > erable and alg48? I didn't think so, but I just don't remember! Is there > anything else on the 48gx that might disqualify it? I really don't want to have to use an algebraic calc, I am just too used > to rpn for regular stuff, and I really don't want to have to buy a ti. Matt > I took Diff Eq with a simple, non-programmable, algebraic calculator in the 80's. I used, now get this, my brain. Perhaps that is what the instructor is trying to encourage in your case. You need to understand these things in your own head before you rely on a calculator to do it for you. In that way, you can recognize when calculator gives you an incorrect answer. Charles Perry P.E. ==== >In that way, you can recognize when calculator > gives you an incorrect answer. Though I agree in general, I doubt that me, you or anybody else will recognize erroneous results if the differential equation exceeds some degree of complexity. ==== I just finished DiffyQs last emester and the only thing I used a calculator for was Euler's Method and runga-Kutta (sp?) method which are decimal approximation for DEs. For that I used a TI 83+ and a program my prof gave to us. You will just have to do some integration and differentiation on some problems that hopefully your book and prof will rig so that the stuff you are integrating/differentiating is simple first semester calculus stuff. Bye I can't use my 49g because it is too powerful. 89 is the same, and it > has been a LOOOONG time since I have really used my 48gx. Sooo, I just don't remember, can the 48gx do all the symbolic without > erable and alg48? I didn't think so, but I just don't remember! Is > there anything else on the 48gx that might disqualify it? I really don't want to have to use an algebraic calc, I am just too > used to rpn for regular stuff, and I really don't want to have to buy > a ti. Matt http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! ==== When looking at the latest HP calculators, I noticed that RPN is going to be abandonned? (I was looking at HP's website and noticed that the HP49 and the HP32 are discontinued?) I sincerely hope not... If I would be obliged to use an algebraic calc. again it would be like driving a car with 5 gears reverse and one forward. I wonder if any other brand offers RPN calcs? I use my HP48G and GX every day, but for the ordinary +-*/ operations it is sometimes a bit too complicated. (Not to me, but other people in our company) Did the HP32 have multiple stacklines? I'm just truying to find a solution for the future to secure the usage of RPN calcs. The only problem with RPN is, that once tried and mastered, there is no turn back... RPN is just too easy to use. Many people who use RPN now in our company have real problems using an algebraic calc again. Greetings, Frank ==== I happened to find this site: http://www.office1000.com/discount/calculator-handheld.html They seem to offer the 32SII for $60.97 and the HP 49G for $186.47. I don't know anything about this company and I didn't inquire to see if those items where actually in stock, but the top of the web page says that the price list is for items they have available. I have been using HP calcs since the early 1990s. I currently have a HP48G and a HP49G and I love them both. I've started going back to college and my teachers insist on everyone using the TI83. I bought one and took it back the same day. I would have a meltdown trying to take an exam with that thing. You're right, once you go RPN it's hard to go back. Unfortunately, if no one picks up the ball that HP has dropped we will have to resort to running RPN emulators on PDAs :-( Dave When looking at the latest HP calculators, I noticed that RPN is going > to be abandonned? (I was looking at HP's website and noticed that the > HP49 and the HP32 are discontinued?) > I sincerely hope not... If I would be obliged to use an algebraic > calc. again it would be like driving a car with 5 gears reverse and > one forward. > I wonder if any other brand offers RPN calcs? > I use my HP48G and GX every day, but for the ordinary +-*/ operations > it is sometimes a bit too complicated. (Not to me, but other people in > our company) > Did the HP32 have multiple stacklines? I'm just truying to find a > solution for the future to secure the usage of RPN calcs. > The only problem with RPN is, that once tried and mastered, there is > no turn back... RPN is just too easy to use. > Many people who use RPN now in our company have real problems using an > algebraic calc again. Greetings, > Frank > ==== > I happened to find this site: http://www.office1000.com/discount/calculator-handheld.html > Great. As soon as you post this, they take it off the website :-( -Michael ==== Search for HP32sii thought it is currently out of stock. > I happened to find this site: >http://www.office1000.com/discount/calculator-handheld.html Great. As soon as you post this, they take it off the website :-( -Michael ==== I guess it's time to start searching the garage sales and pawn shops. > Search for HP32sii thought it is currently out of stock. > I happened to find this site: >http://www.office1000.com/discount/calculator-handheld.html > > Great. As soon as you post this, they take it off the website :-( >-Michael > ==== It would be a tragedy indeed should we see this come to pass. The efficiency, and easiness of use make RPN superior to algebraic input most of the time. I could not see myself be forced to buy an algebraic calculator when RPN is possible... if HP abadons it, there must be someone who will rise and adopt it. How will I teach my kids RPN if there won't be anything to use out there? Horrid thoughts... -- Al ==== Frank, I sincerely hope RPN won't be abandoned! It is the only entry mode that really makes sense! As for the cheapest calc it is probably still an HP of some flavor... Rod When looking at the latest HP calculators, I noticed that RPN is going > to be abandonned? (I was looking at HP's website and noticed that the > HP49 and the HP32 are discontinued?) > I sincerely hope not... If I would be obliged to use an algebraic > calc. again it would be like driving a car with 5 gears reverse and > one forward. > I wonder if any other brand offers RPN calcs? > I use my HP48G and GX every day, but for the ordinary +-*/ operations > it is sometimes a bit too complicated. (Not to me, but other people in > our company) > Did the HP32 have multiple stacklines? I'm just truying to find a > solution for the future to secure the usage of RPN calcs. > The only problem with RPN is, that once tried and mastered, there is > no turn back... RPN is just too easy to use. > Many people who use RPN now in our company have real problems using an > algebraic calc again. Greetings, > Frank ==== It would be an HP-12C. -- about $50-70 new. Gene -- * These statements and opinions are mine alone and do not reflect my employer's views. * > Frank, I sincerely hope RPN won't be abandoned! It is the only entry mode that > really makes sense! As for the cheapest calc it is probably still an HP of > some flavor... > Rod >When looking at the latest HP calculators, I noticed that RPN is going > to be abandonned? (I was looking at HP's website and noticed that the > HP49 and the HP32 are discontinued?) > I sincerely hope not... If I would be obliged to use an algebraic > calc. again it would be like driving a car with 5 gears reverse and > one forward. > I wonder if any other brand offers RPN calcs? > I use my HP48G and GX every day, but for the ordinary +-*/ operations > it is sometimes a bit too complicated. (Not to me, but other people in > our company) > Did the HP32 have multiple stacklines? I'm just truying to find a > solution for the future to secure the usage of RPN calcs. > The only problem with RPN is, that once tried and mastered, there is > no turn back... RPN is just too easy to use. > Many people who use RPN now in our company have real problems using an > algebraic calc again. >Greetings, > Frank ==== I agree. the 12C is still available, and the last of the golden era. Get one soon, you never know! -- Thierry Morissette thm47@msn.com > It would be an HP-12C. -- about $50-70 new. Gene > -- > * These statements and opinions are mine alone and do not reflect my > employer's views. * > Frank, >I sincerely hope RPN won't be abandoned! It is the only entry mode that > really makes sense! As for the cheapest calc it is probably still an HP of > some flavor... > > Rod > >When looking at the latest HP calculators, I noticed that RPN is going > to be abandonned? (I was looking at HP's website and noticed that the > HP49 and the HP32 are discontinued?) > I sincerely hope not... If I would be obliged to use an algebraic > calc. again it would be like driving a car with 5 gears reverse and > one forward. > I wonder if any other brand offers RPN calcs? > I use my HP48G and GX every day, but for the ordinary +-*/ operations > it is sometimes a bit too complicated. (Not to me, but other people in > our company) > Did the HP32 have multiple stacklines? I'm just truying to find a > solution for the future to secure the usage of RPN calcs. > The only problem with RPN is, that once tried and mastered, there is > no turn back... RPN is just too easy to use. > Many people who use RPN now in our company have real problems using an > algebraic calc again. >Greetings, > Frank > > ==== >Here's some info about a new primality test. Oops! Here it is: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/news/2002-08-07_primetest/ ==== ==== It's item #HP90136, on the Books- Sci. & Graphing Calc. page This is where I got my copy a couple of months ago. > Many thanks. home page had that find space, and I was trying to type in 90136, HP, without luck. Once I got to the right sub-page (the Sci, & Graphing Calculator one), it was easy. Also ordered The HP 48 Handbook - 2nd Ed. #AR04 (wt.: 1,00), on the promise of many examples. No idea if it is the Donnelly authored book or not, but at least it is available. I appreciate the help. -- Richard... DH/DSS: 0x886DFF31 ==== On the HP49G, how do you graph and display the inverse function of an equation? ie. replacing X with Y, or f^-1(x) Is there a command such as finverse? -- Al ==== > On the HP49G, how do you graph and display the inverse function of an > equation? > ie. replacing X with Y, or f^-1(x) Is there a command such as finverse? About graphing the inverse function: One solution would be indeed to exchange Y<->X. Example: You have the function Y=X^2. If you setup the independend and dependend variables by entering X INDEP Y DEPND, then you get the graph of the function. If you do Y INDEP X DEPND, then you get the graph of the inverse. But then you still don't have the alg. form of the inverse. So we come to your second question, about a command like finverse. In the above example of Y=X^2, you simply solve for X and so you get { X=-SQRT(Y) X=SQRT(Y) } (which already shows that the inverse is not a function but a relation.) ==== > About graphing the inverse function: > One solution would be indeed to exchange Y<->X. Example: You have the > function Y=X^2. If you setup the independend and dependend variables > by entering X INDEP Y DEPND, then you get the graph of the function. > If you do Y INDEP X DEPND, then you get the graph of the inverse. But > then you still don't have the alg. form of the inverse. So we come to your second question, about a command like finverse. In > the above example of Y=X^2, you simply solve for X and so you get { > X=-SQRT(Y) X=SQRT(Y) } (which already shows that the inverse is not a > function but a relation.) I guess graphing something like y=sin(x) would be pretty hard, especially since it is not truly a function like you mentioned. I was just looking at my friend's TI, and it has a DrawInv command that flips a graph along the y=x axis, which is basically the 'inverse function'. I cannot really find practical use for this, but is it possible to 'flip' a graph along the y=x axis on the HP49G? How about actually being able to access the function to find the zeros, intersections, etc? On a machine like this there should be a way just to flip a graph like that... ;) -- Al ==== > I guess graphing something like y=sin(x) would be pretty hard, especially > since it is not truly a function like you mentioned. Not that hard. Just: 1) solve for independend variable, 2 decide which of the branches of the inverse relation you want to plot, by giving some integer value to the variable n1, which is in the solutions, 3) Exchange the roles of the dependend and the independend variables, 4) and plot. > I was just looking at my friend's TI, and it has a DrawInv command that > flips a graph along the y=x axis, which is basically the 'inverse > function'. > I cannot really find practical use for this, but is it possible to 'flip' a > graph > along the y=x axis on the HP49G? How about actually being able to access > the function to find the zeros, intersections, etc? On a machine like this > there should be a way just to flip a graph like that... ;) OK, I put all the above actions in a program, which then we baptize DRAWINV. << IF @If current equation isn't of the form RCEQ ->LST { = } @y=f(x) HEAD POS NOT THEN @then convert it to the form RCEQ PPAR 3 GET = @y=f(x) STEQ END PPAR 7 GET @Get current independend variable ZEROS @Solve for current independend variable STEQ @Store solutions as equations to plot PPAR 7 GET DEPND @Set independend variable as dependend variable PPAR 3 GET INDEP @Set dependend variable as independend variable 0 'n1' STO @Here you can store any integer value in n1, @the variable that is created when trig. functions @are solved. DRAX DRAW PICTURE @Plot and switch to plotting environment > This is of course not perfect but as you can imagine it can be made much better. When the plot is finished you can do tracing, find roots graphically and so on. The HP49G has no dedicated built-in command for drawing the inverse, but, he, he, again we find the unexpected but nonetheless useful commands like ISOM and MKISOM, with which we can not only graphically mirror on y=x, but do anything else, like plotting graphs rotated, or mirrored on (0,0) or any combination of symmetry operations like that. Of course the prise to pay is coding more, but you know, we can't get something for nothing ;-) Greetings, Mirrored Nick. ==== When I try to divide with my HP 49G, it just simplifies the question, (ie- 2/4 becomes 1/2) or it just leaves it the same. (like 17/51) I'd like it to give me the answer in decimal form. Is there a setting or flag I change to fix this? Alex. ==== Try using APPROX mode ( RS(hold) ENTER ) or the command ->NUM Dennis ==== Another way to do it is to type one of your numbers with a decimal after it, the result will be displayed in decimal form. So instead of saying 2/4, which will be 1/2, you can say 2./4 which will give you .5. -- Al ==== Set the mode->CAS->approx to off (no check mark). Doing this will always give you a decimal value. Or, you can press right shift-> Enter (Num) on the keypad to get the approximate decimal value after the exact value has been calculated. JF > When I try to divide with my HP 49G, it just simplifies the question, (ie- > 2/4 becomes 1/2) or it just leaves it the same. (like 17/51) I'd like it to > give me the answer in decimal form. Is there a setting or flag I change to > fix this? Alex. ==== My approx didn't have a check mark in, but when Ichecked the box it did give Oh and I just realized that I made a mistake in my earlier post about 17/51 not being able to be simplified. oops... Alex > Set the mode->CAS->approx to off (no check mark). Doing this will always > give you a decimal value. Or, you can press right shift-> Enter (Num) on the > keypad to get the approximate decimal value after the exact value has been > calculated. > JF > When I try to divide with my HP 49G, it just simplifies the question, (ie- > 2/4 becomes 1/2) or it just leaves it the same. (like 17/51) I'd like it > to > give me the answer in decimal form. Is there a setting or flag I change to > fix this? >Alex. > > ==== Sorry about that, I did mean to say turn approx mode on (check mark)! But, that's ok you got what I was saying anyways. JF > My approx didn't have a check mark in, but when Ichecked the box it did give > Oh and I just realized that I made a mistake in my earlier post about 17/51 > not being able to be simplified. oops... > Alex > Set the mode->CAS->approx to off (no check mark). Doing this will > always > give you a decimal value. Or, you can press right shift-> Enter (Num) on > the > keypad to get the approximate decimal value after the exact value has been > calculated. > JF >When I try to divide with my HP 49G, it just simplifies the question, > (ie- > 2/4 becomes 1/2) or it just leaves it the same. (like 17/51) I'd like it > to > give me the answer in decimal form. Is there a setting or flag I change > to > fix this? >Alex. > > ==== We love them. Adrian.R.Chesini@EXXON.sprint.com 12440@siderca.com dario@s5.coopenet.com.ar david.mourino@monsanto.com SIDDEA@SIDERCA.COM nhpereyr@bemberg.com.ar SIDEGO@SIDERCA.COM.AR sosam@frd.utn.edu.ar daubian@coopser.com.ar ropalaci@bemberg.com.ar Jose-Luis.Bermudez@epfl.ch sidvjo@siderca.com lcistola@arnet.com.ar sidapl@siderca.com leanzal@frd.utn.edu.ar zubietal@globalte.com sidbom@siderca.com sidamt@siderca.com sidnak2@siderca.com zrt_sup_ser@bemberg.com.ar sidnoa@siderca.com sidohc@siderca.com daubian@coopsersp.com.ar nhpereyr@bemberg.com.ar pernal@frd.utn.edu.ar cac@utenet.com.ar rojana@utenet.com.ar rubenlafratta@yahoo.com.ar sidsna@siderca.com pacini@echo-on.net ==== > The (c) lets people know that you want to retain rights. What you DO > NOT have to do in the US is register with the copyright office. Lets > take this example... I'm in a programming class and our assignment is to perform prime > factorization. All of our assignments are posted on the schools web > site for peer review. I come up with a unique way to perform this > task that is unique and valuable, but being a student I did not > realize it. Another student in another class looks at the site, sees > my work and decides to create a product using my software ... here is > what could happen... A) I did not put the (C) nor did I register with the copyright office. > ... While I might still own the rights to the software my not putting > the (c) may cause it to move in to the public domain. False. Since the US became signatory to the Berne convention (in 1986?), you automatically own a copyright in any work you create whether you include a notice or not. The only way the work can enter the public domain is if you explicitly place it there, or the copyright term expires. > The other person > could rightly assume I didn't want anything to do with it and use it > to create a product. Another person can assume anything they want, but their assumption does not have any force of law. The absence of a copyright notice does NOT create any legal implication that the work is in the public domain. Note that a C in parenthesis is NOT considered a legal copyright notice in the US. The acceptable abreviations are a C in a circle, or Copr. ==== > Perhaps the situation is different in the US. My understanding, based > on what I have been told in Australia, is that copyright is something > that you own simply by virtue of having written the work. You do not > have to assert ownership as you state below in order for it to become > 'official'. That's true in the US as well. However, in order to bring an infringement lawsuit, you must have registered the copyright. If you hadn't registered it promptly, you aren't elgible to recover actual damages, though statutory damages can be quite significant. > The (c) convention is purely that - a convention. Simply > omitting the (c) will not make it any the less yours nor will it allow > someone else to somehow 'take over' ownership. Perhaps someone more > legally knowledgable can comment. In the US, the letter C in a circle, or the abbreviation Copr. can be used in place of the word copyright in a notice, but a letter C in parenthesis is not legally recognized as a copyright notice. IANAL. More details can be obtained from the US Copyright Office, www.copyright.gov. ==== > Hmm, I suspect that the 89 does neithers calculates with infinite > precision, nor instantly as my 92+ fails to do either! I doubt that the S&E 600-ST actually calculates with infinite precision either. ==== > I doubt that the S&E 600-ST actually calculates with > infinite precision either. The accuracy inherent to a machine and the accuracy of the perceived output can be different. An example of this is most non-HP calculators which use guard digits, extra digits that are not displayed but are rounded for a more accurate-appearing output. An extreme example is analog computers, including slide rules. Since slide rules are *analog* computers, they do indeed have infinite precision, but are difficult to read, as opposed to digital computers, which are easy to read but of limited precision. Example: The actual physical midpoint on the C or D scale on a slide rule is *exactly* the square root of 10, not just a handful of digits of it. The larger the slide rule and/or the finer its markings, the more precisely you can *read* the infinite-precision result. Other examples of real exact irrationals include an output of *exactly* pi volts from an electronic analog computer, or the diagonal of a unit square (*exactly* the square root of 2). Such exactitude is theoretically limited by quantuum physics, as indicated in the original posting of this thread. -Joe- ==== > Since slide rules are *analog* computers, they do indeed have infinite > precision, Analog systems don't have infinite precision. Physical limits, such as the Planck length, prevent this. Unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely possible. ==== > Since slide rules are *analog* computers, they do indeed have infinite > precision, Analog systems don't have infinite precision. Physical limits, such as > the Planck length, prevent this. Unless I'm mistaken, which is entirely > possible. I have the impression that infinite precision is used in this thread instead of arbitrary precision ??? Infinite precision is already built-in in all calcs, capable of symbolic manipulations. The symbol pi for examble, not evaluated to a number but used as symbolic name, has infinite precision. It is exactly what it is, pi and not a numeric approximation. The numeric approximations of pi on the other hand, can have arbitrary large but yet finite precision. Aren't the definitions of maximum precision and accuracy of a machine the following?? 1) eps: the smallest positive number that added to x returns something different than x. 2) Precision=-LOG(eps/x) 3) Accuracy=-LOG(eps) If they are, then any number can have arbitrary but not infinite precision and/or accuracy. Sorry if I misunderstood anything, ==== [OT! This thread is waxing philosophical... or waning philosophical, depending on your point of view... or lack of one. ;-) -jkh-] > Infinite precision is already built-in in all calcs, capable > of symbolic manipulations. The symbol pi for examble, > not evaluated to a number but used as symbolic name, > has infinite precision. It is exactly what it is, pi and > not a numeric approximation. The numeric approximations of pi on the other hand, > can have arbitrary large but yet finite precision. Those are not the only meanings of exact or precise. Here's another one: The real number pi has an exact location on a number line, not merely a symbolic one. It really is *exactly* at that point, and not one yoctofermi to the left or right of that point. In fact, point, location, and number are synonymous in that context; each is specific, exact, precise, unchangeable, constant, etc. On the other hand, the *physical* location of that point on a *physical* length can only be *approximated*, and it is well understood (I hope) that the pi mark on a slide rule is only intended as a calculating aid and not as a dogmatic declaration Here Lieth Pi, Only And Exactly Here, And Nowhere Else. But the important thing to realize (lost on many people) is that pi REALLY IS an exact point that lies exactly SOMEWHERE on every slide rule (preferably at the very tip of a pi mark which narrows to a point, like an arrow or spear, engineered to visible-light wavelength tolerances). Don't confuse the real with the observed, as the Positivists do. If person A (working in secret) drops some stones into a well, and some time later person B (working in secret) drops more stones into the same well, there *really is* a number of stones, consisting EXACTLY of the total A+B, sitting at the bottom of the well, even though NOBODY knows what that number is. Nobody knows where pi is on a slide rule either, but it's there, with infinite precision... somewhere. Koan coda: HP's left hand is designing new calculators. HP's right hand knows nothing about this. So, is HP *really* designing calculators or not? -Joe- The cat knows! -- Erwin Schr.9adinger ==== > [OT! This thread is waxing philosophical... or waning philosophical, > depending on your point of view... or lack of one. ;-) -jkh-] If any content of text is important, then this kind of content, Joe. Infinite precision is already built-in in all calcs, capable > of symbolic manipulations. The symbol pi for examble, > not evaluated to a number but used as symbolic name, > has infinite precision. It is exactly what it is, pi and > not a numeric approximation. >The numeric approximations of pi on the other hand, > can have arbitrary large but yet finite precision. Those are not the only meanings of exact or precise. Here's another > one: I'm full of ears :-) > The real number pi has an exact location on a number line, not merely a > symbolic one. It really is *exactly* at that point, and not one yoctofermi > to the left or right of that point. In fact, point, location, and > number are synonymous in that context; each is specific, exact, precise, > unchangeable, constant, etc. Hmmm, OK, though accepting the opposite is also allowed. > On the other hand, the *physical* location of that point on a *physical* > length can only be *approximated*, and it is well understood (I hope) that > the pi mark on a slide rule is only intended as a calculating aid and not > as a dogmatic declaration Here Lieth Pi, Only And Exactly Here, And Nowhere > Else. OK, any real existing ruler will fail to give the exact point where pi is. (And also any other number, but that's rather a technology problem.) > But the important thing to realize (lost on many people) is that pi REALLY > IS an exact point that lies exactly SOMEWHERE on every slide rule > (preferably at the very tip of a pi mark which narrows to a point, like an > arrow or spear, engineered to visible-light wavelength tolerances). As said, the opposite can also be assumed, but let's get the above for granted. > Don't confuse the real with the observed, as the Positivists do. You just did, by saying to realize that pi REALLY IS an exact point that lies exactly SOMEWHERE on every slide rule. > If person > A (working in secret) drops some stones into a well, and some time later > person B (working in secret) drops more stones into the same well, there > *really is* a number of stones, consisting EXACTLY of the total A+B, sitting > at the bottom of the well, even though NOBODY knows what that number is. > Nobody knows where pi is on a slide rule either, but it's there, with > infinite precision... somewhere. I don't see how this relates to pi. The rules for finding the number of stones are not known to us. The rule for finding pi is known to us. > Koan coda: HP's left hand is designing new calculators. HP's right hand > knows nothing about this. So, is HP *really* designing calculators or not? Here you get extraordinary philosophical. That's a problem that is 100000 times harder to comprehend ;-) Anyway, you talked about another definition of precision and accuracy. Where is it? I don't see any here. P.S. Not every number has to be located the way you described. ==== [OT] > Don't confuse the real with the observed, as the Positivists do. You just did, by saying to realize that pi REALLY IS an exact > point that lies exactly SOMEWHERE on every slide rule. Yes, if you define really is as can be observed (that's positivism in a nutshell). No, if you define really is as regardless of observation (that's realism in a nutshell). Example: Let's call the Exact Moon-to-Earth Distance EMED. Note well: I do NOT mean the *mean* distance, since that changes over the millennia. I reather mean the *exact* distance *right now*, which also changes over time, but always is an exact distance at any given moment, even before there were any people on Earth to observe, measure, or even think about it. Furthermore, there always exists in space a line segment that starts at the exact center point of the Earth (Zero EMED), intersects the exact center point of the Moon (One EMED) and continues outwards from the Earth to the *exact* point PI EMED. It's a precise *point*, tracing a strange path through space as it orbits the Earth which is orbiting the Sun which is orbiting Sagittarius A* which is orbiting God-knows-what... but it's an exact, precise, real point, even though I highly doubt whether *anybody* ever gave that point any thought before. The positivists would say, no, there is no such point, because it cannot be observed. I would say, yes, there is such a point, because reality is perfectly content to exist with or without our awareness of it (see http://holyjoe.org/teasdal2.htm for a tragic application of that thought). Ergo, by my claim that pi is real, I do not confuse reality with the observed. In less precise terms, pi is a real number, not an imaginary one. :-) > Anyway, you talked about another definition of precision and accuracy. > Where is it? I don't see any here. Correspondence between two aspects of reality, whether observed or not. > P.S. Not every number has to be located the way you described. True, but real numbers do, no? -Joe- ==== First of all, thank you so much for this. We should talk more often about such matters here. And please don't get me wrong. None of my answers below are meant in the way you are wrong, I am right. Just think of me with my face turned to a question mark, OK? Something like :-? > Don't confuse the real with the observed, as the Positivists do. >You just did, by saying to realize that pi REALLY IS an exact > point that lies exactly SOMEWHERE on every slide rule. Yes, if you define really is as can be observed (that's positivism in a > nutshell). No, if you define really is as regardless of observation (that's realism > in a nutshell). If you omit the really from really is, or if you rather say is, under some certain premises, then it will fit better. Really has always been too much of a saying. > Example: Let's call the Exact Moon-to-Earth Distance EMED. Note well: I > do NOT mean the *mean* distance, since that changes over the millennia. I > reather mean the *exact* distance *right now*, which also changes over time, > but always is an exact distance at any given moment, even before there were > any people on Earth to observe, measure, or even think about it. This is a much more complicated problem than the existence of a number, as many other factors play a role here. So let's stay at numbers, we mix up too many things otherwise. > Furthermore, there always exists in space a line segment that starts at the > exact center point of the Earth (Zero EMED), intersects the exact center > point of the Moon (One EMED) and continues outwards from the Earth to the > *exact* point PI EMED. Only if we stay at maths and accept that any real number represents some distance. But you bring physics in the game (Do you?). If you do, then the above paragraph about the distance PI EMED is true only if space itself isn't quantized (discrete) in elementary segments of which no int. multiple results in PI EMED. > It's a precise *point*, tracing a strange path > through space as it orbits the Earth which is orbiting the Sun which is > orbiting Sagittarius A* which is orbiting God-knows-what... but it's an > exact, precise, real point, even though I highly doubt whether *anybody* > ever gave that point any thought before. It is dangerous to project physical reality and existence to anything that can't be measured. Do you say here that electrons have a real path and a real location and a real velocity, but we can only not measure them? > The positivists would say, no, there is no such point, because it cannot be > observed. If you can't prove or much more disprove something, let it be and find something different. If I extrapolate the above sentence of yours in an admitedly exagerated way, then I find out: Anything exists, the existance of which I can't disprove. > I would say, yes, there is such a point, because reality is perfectly > content to exist with or without our awareness of it (see > http://holyjoe.org/teasdal2.htm for a tragic application of that thought). Again that hard thing, reality. (If John hears this then we'll both run for cover ;-)) I don't know even what reality is. I don't have any means to define the one and only absolute reality. (John apparently does ;-)) So I find it very hard to talk about that thingie. But awareness always plays a role. Do you thing that we would find the same reality if our sences were those of an alien? If we could smell colors and hear photons? I doubt that very much. for searching reality. > Ergo, by my claim that pi is real, I do not confuse reality with the > observed. No, it seems to me that you sometimes confuse reality with what you wish to exist. It all fits so wonderful in a simple picture, if the wished to be distance PI EMED, can be assumed to exist a priori. But the wish for an easy picture is not a proof. > In less precise terms, pi is a real number, not an imaginary one. > :-) Yes. But though not imaginary, it is in transe ;-) > Anyway, you talked about another definition of precision and accuracy. > Where is it? I don't see any here. Correspondence between two aspects of reality, whether observed or not. Still I see no definition. Only interpretations. > P.S. Not every number has to be located the way you described. True, but real numbers do, no? No. Depends on what you accept as a valid way to construct the corresponding distance. Locate PI on a straight line. You can't, if you are allowed to use only ruler and.. the other thing with the two legs, what's its name, compass?, Well I think you know which instrument I mean. Anyway, we started with precision and accuracy. There are strict definitions of those quantities. The philosophical part doesn't offer definitions but rather what each an every brain conceives and thinks/wishes true, because it seems to make sence. ==== > On the other hand, the *physical* location of that point on a *physical* > length can only be *approximated*, and it is well understood (I hope) that > the pi mark on a slide rule is only intended as a calculating aid and not > as a dogmatic declaration Here Lieth Pi, Only And Exactly Here, And Nowhere > Else. Don't you hate it when computing gear Lieth to you? I sure do... ==== > Since slide rules are *analog* computers, they do indeed have infinite > precision, but are difficult to read, as opposed to digital computers, which > are easy to read but of limited precision. Example: The actual physical midpoint on the C or D scale on a slide rule is > *exactly* the square root of 10, not just a handful of digits of it. The > larger the slide rule and/or the finer its markings, the more precisely you > can *read* the infinite-precision result. > Such exactitude is theoretically limited by quantuum physics, as indicated > in the original posting of this thread. ummmm, I have found this a fun series of ideas BUT now my two bits on analog precision vs accuracy. Can we be a little statistical here? I would think that precision of a measurement would be related to its standard deviation (you get to choose a probablistic statement and that gives a multiplier). The accuracy on the other hand would be the mean of the dsitribution versus reality. SO as far as the slide rule goes, its accuracy (related to mean) would in turn depend upon the accuracy with which the engravement was performed. Since this, in turn, has both accuracy AND precision (no two manufactured slide rules could be perfectly identical), any individual slide rule would not be perfectly accurate because the engravement would not be perfectly placed. Several rules would give different answers if we were skilled enough to read them that well. Therefore a process represented by a large pile of slide rules would have both precision and acuracy issues! Now precision also enters into this game because as we maginify the line to read it's position, the line is not perfectly straight, nor is it perfectly perpendicular. Therefore multiple readings will lead to different values and, hence, I claim it is a precision issue. Thus even the precision starts to be affected by real resolution therefore that the precision has to be a function of some sort of roughness measure of the line. So here then is a challenge. Can we craft a set of equations relating the maximum achievable precision of slide rule in terms of: 1. Perpedicularity (say in minutes of arc). Precision issue because it gives rise to an uncertainty in where to read. 2. Surface roughness of the line edges (in mm/cm or something like that) 3. Resolving power of the ocular systems needed to read out the line (maybe we can ignore this and just magnify). Maybe once we have developed the equations, someone could post a new library (would have to run in port 2) to solve these problems. :>) I found the thoughts in this thread very interesting! -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Graves RKBA! bgraves@ix.netcom.com ==== > Example: The actual physical midpoint on the C or D scale on a slide rule is > *exactly* the square root of 10, not just a handful of digits of it. The > larger the slide rule and/or the finer its markings, the more precisely you > can *read* the infinite-precision result. Those of us with aging eyes *really* appreciate whoever came up with the idea for those little clip-on magnifiers that fit over the cursor. :-) It makes reading a slipstick *much* easier. I have one on one of my K+E 4053's and another for my 4080 and 4081's. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== > Hmm, I suspect that the 89 does neithers calculates with infinite > precision, nor instantly as my 92+ fails to do either! I doubt that the S&E 600-ST actually calculates with infinite precision > either. Ah, well, yes it does, it's just the manufacturers didn't put all the markings on the scales. :-) My point was (is?) that the normal digital calculator that we are all so familiar with has a fixed resolution (probably more correct than to talk about precision?) of, say, 15 digits whilst the slide rule in general is an analogue device. Mind you, a strong magnifying glass would be needed to read scales with _all_ the scale markings on them! ttfn WigglePig ==== > I doubt that the S&E 600-ST actually calculates with infinite precision > either. > Ah, well, yes it does, it's just the manufacturers didn't put all the > markings on the scales. :-) There's not enough room for all the markings. My (admittedly feeble) understanding of physics is that there are only a finite (but very large) number of positions the circular slide rule can be set to, based on the Planck distance. But perhaps I'm wrong. ==== > < or N[Pi,100] in Mathematica? No, not arbitrary precision, only infinite precision (exact numbers like pi^2). -- Bhuvanesh ==== < or N[Pi,100] in Mathematica? No, not arbitrary precision, only infinite precision (exact numbers like pi^2). Of course any calc with symbolic capabilities has that. (As long as we don't approximate pi^2 with a number.) I just thought that perhaps the advanced TIs have also arbitrary precision built-in. ==== >imprinted, Chemistry is Chool. I believe they also produced another >case imprinted, Physics is Phun. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what >happened to it. The back, together with the enclosed sliding card >comprised the ultimate high school level math and science cheat sheet, >including practically every formula you could ever want in high school >if I remember correctly and that seems to be corroborated by the >pictures. ... Another incurable case of nostalgia. Hey, check out http://www.concise.co.jp/eng0731/top_eng.html They don't make that particular slide rule anymore, but they're still in business making rules! :-) Mike (a recent and happy Concise customer!) ==== >imprinted, Chemistry is Chool. I believe they also produced another >case imprinted, Physics is Phun. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what >happened to it. The back, together with the enclosed sliding card >comprised the ultimate high school level math and science cheat sheet, >including practically every formula you could ever want in high school >if I remember correctly and that seems to be corroborated by the >pictures. ... Another incurable case of nostalgia. Hey, check out http://www.concise.co.jp/eng0731/top_eng.html >They don't make that particular slide rule anymore, but they're >still in business making rules! :-) Mike (a recent and happy Concise customer!) About how much in US Dollars and how long does it take to get one and how much is the shipping? Harold A. Climer Dept. of Physics,Geology and Astronomy U. Tennessee at Chattanooga ==== > Hey, check out http://www.concise.co.jp/eng0731/top_eng.html > They don't make that particular slide rule anymore, but they're > still in business making rules! :-) > Mike (a recent and happy Concise customer!) I'm very happy with mine. It's interesting that we're discussing slide rules in comp.sys.hp48 today, and RPN calculators on sliderule@yahoogroups.com. :-) -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== > Hey, check out http://www.concise.co.jp/eng0731/top_eng.html > They don't make that particular slide rule anymore, but they're > still in business making rules! :-) > Mike (a recent and happy Concise customer!) >I'm very happy with mine. They sure are! For others wondering what we're talking about, Concise is willing to put logos on slide rules for bulk orders. A group of us who are slide rule enthusiasts (hey, stop laughing) recently had an order filled with our logo & the rules are great. And as someone pointed out on that list, slide rule calculations are performed much like RPN. Maybe we should all get a Concise rule with an HP-50 logo on it! It might be the last new RPN HP we see. Poor attempt at humor there... >It's interesting that we're discussing slide rules in comp.sys.hp48 >today, and RPN calculators on sliderule@yahoogroups.com. :-) If irony like this keeps up we could end the year with politicians who care about the masses, and see world peace. Ok, I'm getting a little carried away. :-) Back to our regularly scheduled HP programming now. Mike ==== > Maybe we should all get a Concise rule with an HP-50 > logo on it! It might be the last new RPN HP we see. WOW! Great idea! I'll betcha they'd sell out in no time! If you arrange it, I promise I'll buy a dozen. -Joe- ==== > I have an HP 28s and i sold it. Just for clarification, you said that you sold an HP 28s, which means you don't have one. If you are selling it, which I'm assuming you are, shouldn't be and I'm selling it instead of the above latter? Just trying to help out. -- Al ==== My english is not perfect, I wan't to say i have an HP 28 for sale.... ;-) opriqaxfwekts43u@shawnews... > I have an HP 28s and i sold it. Just for clarification, you said that you sold an HP 28s, which means you > don't have one. If you are selling it, which I'm assuming you are, shouldn't be and I'm > selling it instead of the above latter? > Just trying to help out. -- > Al ==== > I have an HP 28s and i sold it. What answer are you expecting? ==== > I have an HP 28s and i sold it. What answer are you expecting? Poor guy :) -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== my question is the next: i'm tryging do an Input (USER-RPL), it helped with temporal menu (TMENU) > and i want can it to cancel or to acept the entry with one key of said menu > as choice the ENTER o the CANCEL key of the HP48GX. > does it posible with something LIBEVAL O SYSEVAL? > is it necesary SYSRPL lenguage ? thanks on the hand... If I got you right, you want to make menu that contains the keys OK and CANCEL , and use it while the calculator is suspended at the INPUT command. You want to be able to enter or cancel INPUT by using menu keys of a custom menu, right? ==== > Having taken a look at the two new HP49G calculators I tried > (both dead-on-arrival and now returned), there are some pretty > noticable differences between the way HP makes its calculators now > and the way it used to... Actually some of this impression is false, > as may surface below. I have to admit that most of my impressions were based the HP35 (which I had) and HP45 (which friends had). There was a problem with the early 35's keyboards, which was contact bounce. We assumed that it was just because they were new and they were just teething problems. My 35 still works though, and its pi key still bounces occasionally. I've not kept up-to-date with the majority of models that have come out since then, or their problems. > The overall impression I got was cheap, cheap, cheap. About as cheap as TI? Then they should be about the same, > although some say that HP is still better. I wasn't comparing with any other brand, but that doesn't mean there weren't problems with others. > But are there not changing expectations in today's > consumer society that to some degree prompt all this? Some years ago, when Western Electric manufactured most of the > telephones in the USA, I heard them criticized for making them > *too*well* -- they were practically indestructable, > but people now expect everything either to soon become obsolete > or to be anyway to some extent throw away and buy another, and > they seem to shop more on price, when it comes to that trade-off; > it's what drives the consumption-oriented economy, in which > cheap stuff prevails, and thoughts of longer time scales > and the global world quality of life ahead are less important. [r-> [OFF] OK (not that I agree with the throw-away philosohpy) -- but it still would be nice if the 49Gs worked the day you bought them. Geoff -- Geoff Turner spamxtraktor@yahoo.com (NO SPAM) ==== I sell hp calculators in my city, I had a many calculators with this problem, but in the last month I learn the problem and open one calc to try repare this, the only problem is the capacitor, only you will change this 1000uF 6,3V (10V are fine too), I did this in 6 calculators all are well, and no problems remain. P.D. How to detect the problem without open the calc ? turn on it and hold down the ON key and you will see that the screen flick. JoGa > Having taken a look at the two new HP49G calculators I tried > (both dead-on-arrival and now returned), there are some pretty > noticable differences between the way HP makes its calculators now > and the way it used to... Actually some of this impression is false, > as may surface below. I have to admit that most of my impressions were based the HP35 (which I > had) and HP45 (which friends had). There was a problem with the early > 35's keyboards, which was contact bounce. We assumed that it was just > because they were new and they were just teething problems. My 35 still > works though, and its pi key still bounces occasionally. I've not kept up-to-date with the majority of models that have come out > since then, or their problems. The overall impression I got was cheap, cheap, cheap. About as cheap as TI? Then they should be about the same, > although some say that HP is still better. I wasn't comparing with any other brand, but that doesn't mean there > weren't problems with others. But are there not changing expectations in today's > consumer society that to some degree prompt all this? Some years ago, when Western Electric manufactured most of the > telephones in the USA, I heard them criticized for making them > *too*well* -- they were practically indestructable, > but people now expect everything either to soon become obsolete > or to be anyway to some extent throw away and buy another, and > they seem to shop more on price, when it comes to that trade-off; > it's what drives the consumption-oriented economy, in which > cheap stuff prevails, and thoughts of longer time scales > and the global world quality of life ahead are less important. [r-> [OFF] OK (not that I agree with the throw-away philosohpy) -- but it still > would be nice if the 49Gs worked the day you bought them. > Geoff ==== It's scandalous that there is no quality control for these expensive calculators. Are we to expect more of this from the Chinese manufacturers ? It's OK if the 49 is selling for $10 not to have QA, but $150 ?? I don't mind paying top dollar for a reliable, well made calculator, but it seems HP calculator users are getting more and more ripped off as time goes on. It's the same saga with oil tankers breaking apart and crashing into each other because the shipping companies crew their ships with cheap labour and poor skills. Intellectual capital is worth 2c and people will get burned. The outsourcing marketing engineers should get off their lazy buts and make sure people get what they pay for, by enforcing QA at the factory for incoming components as well as what goes out. It's OK for the Chinese to fill the world with cheap disposable toys, eletronics and clothes and other crap, but HP Calculators, that is just INEXCUSABLE. Resellers shouldn't have to do repairs for new products. The blatant greed even ebbs down to speculating HP calc users reselling older calculators to make a profit. People who pay $US300 for a HP32 must be desperate. I sell hp calculators in my city, I had a many calculators with this > problem, but in the last month I learn the problem and open one calc > to try repare this, the only problem is the capacitor, only you will > change this 1000uF 6,3V (10V are fine too), I did this in 6 > calculators all are well, and no problems remain. P.D. How to detect the problem without open the calc ? turn on it and > hold down the ON key and you will see that the screen flick. JoGa ==== I've contacted with HP European Calculator Manager about this problem, and he says that it is solved in new production hp49 models. I hope he could give a reference or serial number interval to know which machines are potential to fail. J.Manrique > It's scandalous that there is no quality control for these expensive > calculators. Are we to expect more of this from the Chinese > manufacturers ? > It's OK if the 49 is selling for $10 not to have QA, but $150 ?? I > don't mind paying top dollar for a reliable, well made calculator, but > it seems HP > calculator users are getting more and more ripped off as time goes on. > It's the same saga with oil tankers breaking apart and crashing into > each other because the shipping companies crew their ships with cheap > labour and poor skills. Intellectual capital is worth 2c and people > will get burned. The outsourcing marketing engineers should get off their lazy buts and > make sure > people get what they pay for, by enforcing QA at the factory for > incoming components as well as what goes out. It's OK for the Chinese > to fill the world with cheap disposable toys, eletronics and clothes > and other crap, but HP Calculators, that is just INEXCUSABLE. > Resellers shouldn't have to do repairs for new products. The blatant greed even ebbs down to speculating HP calc users > reselling older calculators to make a profit. People who pay $US300 > for a HP32 must be desperate. > I sell hp calculators in my city, I had a many calculators with this > problem, but in the last month I learn the problem and open one calc > to try repare this, the only problem is the capacitor, only you will > change this 1000uF 6,3V (10V are fine too), I did this in 6 > calculators all are well, and no problems remain. P.D. How to detect the problem without open the calc ? turn on it and > hold down the ON key and you will see that the screen flick. JoGa ==== Geoff, there is a whole series of HP49's with this defect. They've > been showing up all over the world, specially here in South America. > If you put brand new alkaline batteries then the calculator will > probably work as the defect causes the calculator to stop working when > the battery voltage drops below 1.45V (each). > Alternately, you can try the simple procedure in this link: > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=capacitor+group:comp.sys.hp48&hl=en&lr=&ie = UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=atbbs3%2421l%241%40strauss.udel.edu&rnum=9 Luis with both calculators that I tried, and they were around 1.55V (new and healthy). I checked the first ones with the calculator on as well, and they did not drop much under load. Both calculators were returned to the supplier and I got a refund, so I can't try the fix now. That posting you referred to (above) is interesting. I haven't seen the original posting describing the problem, but it sounds very much like the problem discussed there was caused by a poor-quality electrolytic capacitor. Some electrolytic caps that are made in China don't work a few weeks or months after manufacture. I had already suspected that something like that might have been the cause of the dud new made a very bad choice of supplier for that component! Geoff -- Geoff Turner spamxtraktor@yahoo.com (NO SPAM) ==== Does anyone have for sale, or know of someone who might have a copy that they are willing to sell, of Volume II of HP 48 Insights, a book published in the early '90s by William C. Wickes? I have Volume I but can't locate Volume II. ==== > Does anyone have for sale, or know of someone who might have a copy > that they are willing to sell, of Volume II of HP 48 Insights, a book > published in the early '90s by William C. Wickes? I have Volume I but > can't locate Volume II. If you're interested in 48's ML there are some books on http://www.courbis.com One of them is in English, others are in French There are freely available as PDF files thx to their author(s) / editor Luc > ==== I had looked for Wickes' books a couple years ago. I had even contacted him directly but he did not have even a manuscript to photocopy. Try http://www.powells.com/. I put in a request for this book and a couple others that I could not find. After about 9 mos. I had lost hope when they but the books were perfect! Powell's Books is the best for things like this...they will go out and get them for you. Good luck, Stephen > Does anyone have for sale, or know of someone who might have a copy >that they are willing to sell, of Volume II of HP 48 Insights, a book >published in the early '90s by William C. Wickes? I have Volume I but >can't locate Volume II. If you're interested in 48's ML there are some books on > http://www.courbis.com > One of them is in English, others are in French There are freely available as PDF files thx to their author(s) / editor Luc > ==== Try here: http://www.hpcc.org/calculators/hp48.html#books HPCC members benefit from a discount. HPCC #1046 ==== can someone shortly explain the differences between these three Calcs? thanks! Chris ==== 48G: 32Kb 48G+: 128Kb 48GX: 128Kb + two eXpansion ports (up to 128Kb in the first, up to 4MB in the second) > can someone shortly explain the differences between these three Calcs? thanks! > Chris ==== > 48G: 32Kb > 48G+: 128Kb > 48GX: 128Kb + two eXpansion ports (up to 128Kb in the first, up to 4MB in > the second) That is the misleading advertizing of the HP48.. There's a flaw in the actual memory architecture of the HP48 preventing to use a card bigger than 2MB. Otherwise you will always get a Invalid Card ==== > That is the misleading advertizing of the HP48.. > There's a flaw in the actual memory architecture of the HP48 preventing to > use a card bigger than 2MB. Otherwise you will always get a Invalid Card That's not entirely correct. The HP48GX can acces 31 ports in memory slot 2, which means 3968 kb - a 4 Mb card willl have 32 ports of 128 kb as you know. Port 32, if present, will result in the Invalid Card Data error. Companies like Klotz solve this by making the user able to alternate between the four last ports in pairs with a dipswitch on the card itself. This means you at all time have 3840 kb at your service, and that you at any time can switch the last 256 kb to an alternate portion of 256 kb. With the 128 kb user memory, a 128 kb card in slot 1 and a Klotz 4 Mb card in slot 2, you'll actually have 4 Mb avaviable RAM at any time. ==== > can someone shortly explain the differences between these three Calcs? > I think a data sheet and a comparison of those calcs is available on www.hpcalc.org Raymond ==== many years ago, when the G series came out, > we had a solution for this. > Please take a look at the sources of RPL48, > by Detlef Mueller and Raymond Hellstern (me;-), > available at hpcalc. > Hope this helps. > Yes, this is excellent. Your ENTRIES.H is how all entry lists should look! There is both a distinct name and a comment for each entry which is different between S and G. Unfortunately, many more unsupported entries have come into use and though they may be called stable, that usually means stable in the G series. There really needs to be four designations: Supported, unsupported-stable (across _all_ revisions A-R), moved (supply both addresses with different names, like your list), and G-only (with a naming convention that makes this clear). This should have been done as lists were compiled, when the job would have been easy. Now I guess it will take someone who cares to go back and check. Whew; this doesn't sound fun. Well, I'm going to start keeping track as I try to make programs work on the S. If anyone knows already yea or nay for any of the unsupported but stable entries working on S, feel free to let me know :) [k_d_nelson@yahoo.com, the my-deja address is gone now, of course.] Karl. ==== I'd really appreciate it if someone could lend their advice/opinion to my situation here. My apologies if some/all of these questions have already been answered on the newsgroup - I am unfamiliar with the group here so I thought I'd just try. Ignore at will :) I know nothing about graphic calculators [besides what I've read in the last few days] and very, very little about calculators in general. Furthermore, I know very little math. On a good day I can juggle but, admittedly, well... that's juggling. As is: graphic calculators are entirely unheard of for high-school students in my country. 2 line displays get side looks. This month I begin my final year of high school and [as per the subject line], am looking to purchase a high-end graphic calculator. I won't be using it very much at school (if at all) for various reasons - my intent is to use the thing as an aid to studying and, simply, as a useful tool to own. Besides my general lack of skill, I do have an interest in math; perhaps enough to see me studying it further after this year. Basically my interest has been in 3 specific models: the 40G; 48G+; 49G; [$100, $139, $186 respectively as the best prices I am able to obtain locally]. I have downloaded and browsed the manuals and emulators available. Of these, I found the 40G the most immediately attractive. The CAS feature I found remarkable - (specifically the input model) and the interface I found absolutely simple to get around with. The 49G (in algebraic mode), also - a good bit more effort, but still relatively easy to learn manually. The 48G+ I am finding rather taxing - both interface wise as well as the RPN system [although I haven't honestly focused on understanding it yet]. All of these calculators are exceedingly pricy for my budget; specifically the 49G [which I would like to avoid if possible, based on this reasoning]. The idea would be for me to purchase one and only one calculator for use for my final year and for any university math degree I may undertake [preferably the one calculator for the entire course]. I understand the 40G is insufficient for further forms of study? Again - being only in high-school at the moment - I wouldn't have any idea exactly what this calculator would still need to certify it for such study. Exactly what advanced functions does one need? My interests are purely mathematical - neither engineering nor science. hpcalc.org has, as I can see it, many downloadable applications and such. Would the installation of some of these be sufficient? Lastly concerning the 40G: apparently the calculator makes use of rubber buttons? The thought seems very off-putting to me. Has anyone experienced any problems with these? On to the 48G+ which is, likely, my only other real choice (factoring in the price). Some questions: I see there is no built-in CAS mode. Is this installable in any way? How well might an installed version work? This is the largest feature (that I am aware of) that I would be losing by choosing this model, correct? Regarding the RPN: Looking for a simple, honest opinion. With the refined forms of algebraic entry available on modern day calculators (40G, for example) - is RPN really still viable? Is it still an improvement? I don't fully understand the system - but one thing makes me uneasy. I am quite used to filling in an expression on algebraic calculators. Calculating the expression; then going back to edit an operator; or a number - and compare the results. I get the impression that going back to edit anything is impossible or difficult? Is the 48G+ (or the 48G+ with added free software) superior in every way to the 40G? Is it entirely sufficient for university study? Are there any large problems or issues I should know about? Last, (small) question: is the 48G+ generally bundled with a datalink cable? Having to buy one won't make me all too much pleased :) eshylay ==== long posts [here's another one ;)]. Some comments / responses: Firstly concerning my local schooling/university system: Ti calculators are (as I can see), entirely unheard of in my country (South Africa). Basically any question of brand/model requirements would fall to the school and/or university. However, as I mention, I've no plan to use the thing at school in either event. Primarily I'm looking for something to own [simply as a tool] - which I can use for my own interest and study. The idea would be for me to use the thing as a stimulus for learning math, more generally (as mr mentioned). This, natrually aside from anything related to possible university study. As is, I wouldn't know what is required or even allowed in any degree I may eventually undertake. I would first check what the general suggestions/limitations are being given by my local tertiary institutions. Either way, if I am forbid from using advanced calculators during examinations, etc. - then, again, the thing would serve simply for study and experimentation. Mostly this is being spurred on by my interest in the subject of mathematics. However this alone wouldn't justify the cost: the cost would qualify itself if I could use the calculator [in some form] also in university. This is why I was (and still am) recuctant to purchase a model which may restrict me. I buy somehting like this once in a lifetime [crosses-fingers] - I don't mind getting something a little excessive for my immediate requirements if it is a quality product. Given what I've been reading up on [in response to my question, and elsewhere] - I am crossing the 40G off of my potential list. The RPN and added functions of the higher-end models seems too appealing. Note, however, that the 48GX is also out of the question for me. Locally it retails for the same price as the 49G (which is currently on special)... and the memory cards are absolutely -ridiculously- priced. This avenue is completely out of the question, unfortunately. I would purchase either the 48G+ or 49G [I am now considering it again - reason to follow] through my local HP supplier [at reseller prices]. As I mentioned, the 49G is currently on sale. Also, I did check with the supplier - and they apparently offer the 49G with an included PC link cable... this is certainly pleasing. Given my initial purchase reasoning [study] - the 48G+ (without any built-in CAS implementation) does seem slightly silly in my position. I did some appears to me impractical to get a fully functioning system on the 48G+. Now, [to the disgust of my long-term budget ;)]... I am looking to the 49G which appears to have everything (software wise). I went today to demo a 49G model [to see the rubber buttons for myself] and was, honestly, quite dissapointed with them. They seemed hard and unnatural to push. Am I incorrect in saying that these won't exactly go down well with touch typing as such? Perhaps they free up a little over time? Perhaps you simply become used to them? I've read comments everywhere from the keys being pretty good to being downright awful. Final word on the issue: what does everyone think? Are they really no good? This seems a sad reason to ditch what appears to be a wonderful caculator. Some more concerns I was hoping someone could address: - The manuals are bad :) Not much I can do, I guess. Is the concensus, though, that good manuals are really required to do any effective learning? This is a worry for me and, admittedly, one of the things I was most looking forward to with an HP calculator was recieving excellent documentation. A huge pity - but also a reason not to buy one? - The screen protector. I've heard all sorts of bad things about these. Though, I checked and apparently the calculator my dealer stocks is recent - ie. I would assume using the new style protector. Is it still an issue with scratching and rainbows, etc.? - Lastly, I have read reports of dust settling behind the display screen. This sounds, honestly, quite awful. Is this really a problem? No way to rectify it? The impression I get from what I've read is that the 49G is a between a cheap piece of junk and an average piece of junk build-wise. This is absolutely my greatest concern. If I don't eat for the rest of the year [to pay off this calculator] - I want to know that it will last me into the next decade. Understand: I'm very prepared to pay for it - but only if I can be assured that it is a quality product hardware wise [I've no concern over the software]. I'll look after it like gold - possibly also have it insured. But do you all reckon it will last ages [as old HP calculators apparently do]? Basically, to sum up, my choice falls to purchase a 49G or nothing at the moment. Is the 49G (aside from all the complaints of the early models), really worth it. A good calculator will be worth it to me. Is this one a good calculator, I guess the question becomes. Shall I wait for something else to come up down the line? Please - any experience would be wholly welcome. I already appreciate the comments and, likely, I won't bother you with many (any?) more questions... already there are no more calculators to consider :) eshylay ==== I've had my HP49 for nearly 3 years now and am still amazed at how powerful and flexible it is. In my opinion there is nothing on the market that could replace it. > Some more concerns I was hoping someone could address: - The manuals are bad :) Not much I can do, I guess. Is the concensus, > though, that good manuals are really required to do any effective learning? > This is a worry for me and, admittedly, one of the things I was most looking > forward to with an HP calculator was recieving excellent documentation. A > huge pity - but also a reason not to buy one? > I agree the manuals are bad and an embaresment to to HP especially with manuals from hpcalc. They dont cover the CAS but their coverage of basic operations generally applies to the 49 to. Hpcalc also has a lot of references and tutorials for CAS etc. > - The screen protector. I've heard all sorts of bad things about these. > Though, I checked and apparently the calculator my dealer stocks is recent - > ie. I would assume using the new style protector. Is it still an issue with > scratching and rainbows, etc.? The screen was only a problem on the early 49's. Some people think the screen is clearer without them but then the screen is vulnerable and it weakens the body. I don't use the slide on protecter as it was rubbing the lettering of the keys. I use my old HP41 case instead. Except for where the slide on cover has rubbed the keys (F6, On, Enter) there is little sign of wear on the keys after allmost 3 years. - Lastly, I have read reports of dust settling behind the display screen. > This sounds, honestly, quite awful. Is this really a problem? No way to > rectify it? I read this also. Since my 49 has a pretty hard life I put some clear tape over the serial port. No dust in 3 years. > The impression I get from what I've read is that the 49G is a between a > cheap piece of junk and an average piece of junk build-wise. This is > absolutely my greatest concern. If I don't eat for the rest of the year [to > pay off this calculator] - I want to know that it will last me into the next > decade. Build quality of the 49 is very solid despite the bright blue look, very stiff. I suspect but can't prove without destrying my treasured 49 that it is as robust as my HP41. It is far better than any other Calc including the TI's. The keyboard is a dissappointment compared to past HP's but is still better than it's competition. I find keying in data on the 49 to be about half the speed of what I could do on the HP41 or the 48. Understand: I'm very prepared to pay for it - but only if I can be assured > that it is a quality product hardware wise [I've no concern over the > software]. I 'd certainly recommend it but it is pricy and takes some time to grow into. I've tried the TI92 which is even pricier and found that it's OS was to restrictive, inflexible and felt cheaper. I am tempted by a 48 to get the keyboard but the lack of memory would be a major obstacle or cost. I'll look after it like gold - possibly also have it insured. But do you all > reckon it will last ages [as old HP calculators apparently do]? The future of a 49G type device is a real worry I am still waiting to see some sign that it's not the last of it's line. I'd like to treat mine like gold but it's developed in to a trusty tool and is like your favourite hammer, it goes everywhere and is simply thrown into the toolbox with everything else. > Basically, to sum up, my choice falls to purchase a 49G or nothing at the > moment. Is the 49G (aside from all the complaints of the early models), > really worth it. A good calculator will be worth it to me. Is this one a > good calculator, I guess the question becomes. Shall I wait for something > else to come up down the line? If you don't want the full CAS I suspect you can load a 48G+ up to get something very similar to the 49G. I'm temped to get a 48G+ myself but the 1.5Mb on the 49G is very handy for storing all sorts of applications, formula and junk. As I use the 49 as a tool it's ability to store a large library of additional tools in directories is a major plus that is not available on any other calculator or PDA on the market. This library and ease of programming on the calc more than make up for the slightly slower keyboard. If only HP or someone would put the 49 package with a 48 keyboard and rev the processor up. Instead their looking at Chinese Casio clones. HP's attitude has pissed me off so much I no longer consider HP products for Business or at home. Please - any experience would be wholly welcome. I already appreciate the > comments and, likely, I won't bother you with many (any?) more questions... > already there are no more calculators to consider :) > eshylay ==== Hey guy, So only math eh, well HP are extremely well built and user friendly machines (once yeah get to know them), but from what you said and my own experience, you really don't need one. I'm an engineering and mathematics student, for math, well, I've never been aloud a calculator in a course. And also, my HP calculator is an oddity in the math department, most of my fellow students and my professors own TIs, maybe look into one of them, 83s seem to be sufficient for all math courses, but 89s are quite nice too, but like I say, no calculators aloud, you'll know why once you try to calculate the taylor polynomial of 5exp(2/3xsquared) about 1 to 7 factors with a 48G+, lets just say, the test will be over before you get the polynomial. I'd really appreciate it if someone could lend their advice/opinion to my > situation here. My apologies if some/all of these questions have already > been answered on the newsgroup - I am unfamiliar with the group here so I > thought I'd just try. Ignore at will :) I know nothing about graphic calculators [besides what I've read in the last > few days] and very, very little about calculators in general. Furthermore, I > know very little math. On a good day I can juggle but, admittedly, well... > that's juggling. As is: graphic calculators are entirely unheard of for high-school students > in my country. 2 line displays get side looks. This month I begin my final year of high school and [as per the subject > line], am looking to purchase a high-end graphic calculator. I won't be > using it very much at school (if at all) for various reasons - my intent is > to use the thing as an aid to studying and, simply, as a useful tool to own. Besides my general lack of skill, I do have an interest in math; perhaps > enough to see me studying it further after this year. Basically my interest has been in 3 specific models: the 40G; 48G+; 49G; > [$100, $139, $186 respectively as the best prices I am able to obtain > locally]. I have downloaded and browsed the manuals and emulators available. Of these, I found the 40G the most immediately attractive. The CAS feature > I found remarkable - (specifically the input model) and the interface I > found absolutely simple to get around with. The 49G (in algebraic mode), > also - a good bit more effort, but still relatively easy to learn manually. The 48G+ I am finding rather taxing - both interface wise as well as the RPN > system [although I haven't honestly focused on understanding it yet]. > All of these calculators are exceedingly pricy for my budget; specifically > the 49G [which I would like to avoid if possible, based on this reasoning]. The idea would be for me to purchase one and only one calculator for use for > my final year and for any university math degree I may undertake [preferably > the one calculator for the entire course]. I understand the 40G is insufficient for further forms of study? Again - > being only in high-school at the moment - I wouldn't have any idea exactly > what this calculator would still need to certify it for such study. > Exactly what advanced functions does one need? My interests are purely > mathematical - neither engineering nor science. hpcalc.org has, as I can see it, many downloadable applications and such. > Would the installation of some of these be sufficient? Lastly concerning the 40G: apparently the calculator makes use of rubber > buttons? The thought seems very off-putting to me. Has anyone experienced > any problems with these? > On to the 48G+ which is, likely, my only other real choice (factoring in the > price). > Some questions: I see there is no built-in CAS mode. Is this installable in any way? How > well might an installed version work? This is the largest feature (that I am > aware of) that I would be losing by choosing this model, correct? Regarding the RPN: Looking for a simple, honest opinion. With the refined > forms of algebraic entry available on modern day calculators (40G, for > example) - is RPN really still viable? Is it still an improvement? I don't fully understand the system - but one thing makes me uneasy. I am > quite used to filling in an expression on algebraic calculators. Calculating > the expression; then going back to edit an operator; or a number - and > compare the results. I get the impression that going back to edit anything > is impossible or difficult? Is the 48G+ (or the 48G+ with added free software) superior in every way to > the 40G? Is it entirely sufficient for university study? Are there any large > problems or issues I should know about? Last, (small) question: is the 48G+ generally bundled with a datalink cable? > Having to buy one won't make me all too much pleased :) eshylay ==== > you'll know why once you try to calculate the taylor > polynomial of 5exp(2/3xsquared) about 1 to 7 factors with a 48G+, lets just > say, the test will be over before you get the polynomial. You're right about the HP48, but it's pretty different with the '49 and TI89: HP48GX: 701.84 seconds HP49G: 6.76 seconds TI89: 1.56 seconds A lot has changed from the '48 to the '49. ==== > HP48GX: 701.84 seconds > HP49G: 6.76 seconds > TI89: 1.56 seconds Can you tell me how did you do the test? (commands used, arguments...) I don't know well the 49G. ==== > Can you tell me how did you do the test? (commands used, arguments...) I > don't know well the 49G. The procedure is the same on the '48 & '49: '5*EXP(2/3*X^2)' 'X' 7 << TAYLR > TEVAL On the HP48GX, TEVAL is included in an Erable or Alg48 utility lib - I don't remember which. ==== I'll take a stab at the questions I can... > The 48G+ I am finding rather taxing - both interface wise as well as the RPN > system [although I haven't honestly focused on understanding it yet]. Once you take the time to learn it, this is a very nice calculator. I haven't personally worked with either the 40G or 49G, but I am very happy with my 48G+. > On to the 48G+ which is, likely, my only other real choice (factoring in the > price). > Some questions: I see there is no built-in CAS mode. Is this installable in any way? How > well might an installed version work? This is the largest feature (that I am > aware of) that I would be losing by choosing this model, correct? Well, there are some very limited (emphasis on very) CAS things built in. But there are also some software that can be installed. Particularly, I usually run with ALG48 (has a lot of simplification rules, some functions for more sophisticated manipulation of algebraic expressions (including with autosimplification), and the like) installed, as well as Java (unrelated to Sun's product; it is a replacement for the standard display system that pretty-prints algebraic expressions a la TI 89/92+/Voyage 200, as well as several other things I haven't messed with much yet). It's still pretty limited (and has no exact computation mode), but for anything it can't do, I'm usually in a situation where I have access to Maple. > Regarding the RPN: Looking for a simple, honest opinion. With the refined > forms of algebraic entry available on modern day calculators (40G, for > example) - is RPN really still viable? Is it still an improvement? It most definately is. When we were learning Newton's Method in calculus class (if you haven't taken calculus yet - it's an operation where you plug a number through a certain function, then plug the result back through it, etc., until two successive results are very close to each other), my teacher was sitting there with his TI Voyage 200. He had to recall the previous expression, edit it to use the new number, and reevaluate it. With RPN on my HP, I created a function, dropped my starting number on the stack, ran it through, and then just had to keep punching the meny key for my function until I got what I wanted. I had the answer about twice as fast :-). So I would say RPN is definately viable. There are too many times where the algebraic equivilents to RPN operations are slower, or just plain awkward (like balancing a checkbook), no matter what kind of algebraic entry system you have. > I don't fully understand the system - but one thing makes me uneasy. I am > quite used to filling in an expression on algebraic calculators. Calculating > the expression; then going back to edit an operator; or a number - and > compare the results. I get the impression that going back to edit anything > is impossible or difficult? It depends. Most of the time, when I have to just change a number, I'll do one of two things. I might create an algebraic function, then just plug different numbers into it from the stack. Or I might create my algebraic expression with a variable, duplicate it, and use the | (when) command. Then I just delete the result, duplicate again, and rerun |. Or, you can duplicate the expression before you evaluate it, evaluate it, then do a DROP or SWAP, and edit it again. So this really isn't an issue - while it may not be quite as intuitive as say, on a TI 89, it's really quite easy. > Last, (small) question: is the 48G+ generally bundled with a datalink cable? > Having to buy one won't make me all too much pleased :) Unfortunately, no. They usually run about $15-20 US (a bit overpriced, IMHO, but they also come with CD, etc.). The user's guide, however, has the wiring diagram, so you could make your own if you want. HTH, Mike ==== >As is: graphic calculators are entirely unheard of for high-school >students in my country. 2 line displays get side looks. > mr>.You don't say which country you are in. As you may know, some > countries have the 39G, others have the 40G, depending on what seems to be > allowed on calculators in educational institutions (they are really the same > calculator). > You need to be very aware of what your particular education system does not allow. You say that you won't be using it very much at school but you need to be aware that a calculator with a CAS system will get you into immense problems (ie. zero on exam) if you try to use it in an exam where it is not allowed. Be careful to check thoroughly. You may only be able to use it as a resource at home. >my intent is to use the thing as an aid to studying and, >simply, as a useful tool to own. I would suggest checking out what software each of them has available to it. For the 48 & 49 see Eric Rechlin's site http://www.hpcalc.org For the HP40G see my site The HP HOME view at http://www.hphomeview.com That may help you decide as you may find a particular piece of software which is must have for you. >Besides my general lack of skill, I do have an interest in math; perhaps >enough to see me studying it further after this year. > mr>.Then I think the 48G+/GX or 49 is best. I tend to agree with this to a point in that the advanced capabilities of the 49G are better. If you're intending to use it a lot at uni then the 49G is more powerful. However, the 40G has most of its abilities, is far easier to use and is much cheaper. >I understand the 40G is insufficient for further forms of study? Again - >being only in high-school at the moment - I wouldn't have any idea exactly >what this calculator would still need to certify it for such study. >Exactly what advanced functions does one need? My interests are purely >mathematical - neither engineering nor science. As you say, it depends on what further forms of study you will be undertaking. Being a high school teacher myself I can't really advise on how the 40G copes with uni level maths. I asked a uni lecturer friend and she said that any difference between the 40G and the 49G did not really matter since they used computer packages for the really advanced stuff anyway! She also pointed out that many university courses still do not allow CAS calculators and you should check with your particular campus and course. Some don't even allow graphical calculators! One of my local universities only allows maths students to use scientific calculators for example. >Lastly concerning the 40G: apparently the calculator makes use of rubber >buttons? The thought seems very off-putting to me. Has anyone experienced >any problems with these? I have students who have been using the 40G every day for two years and the buttons are not giving any trouble due to being 'rubber'. Personally I much prefer the feel of the 38G keys but there seems to be no problem with the text rubbing off. The only problem with the buttons is where occasionally with some 40Gs entire rows or columns of buttons suddenly stop working. This is a mechanical problem behind the face plate and is a known warrantee issue - HP have been entirely reasonable about replacing the calculators immediately when this has happened to some of our students. >I am quite used to filling in an expression on algebraic calculators. >Calculating the expression; then going back to edit an operator; or >a number - and compare the results. I get the impression that going >back to edit anything is impossible or difficult? On the 40G this is very easy. The HOME history remembers all calculations so you can recall and edit them. You can also put an equation into the Solve aplet, go to the NUMeric view and repeatedly SOLVe it for different input values. Of course this depends to a certain extent on the complexity of the calculation. >the 40G? Is it entirely sufficient for university study? Are there any That depends on which course you're doing. See my earlier comments. ==== I bought the HP40G last week and after I played a little I was very impressed with it's mathematical cabilities!! - It features the same CAS as the HP49G, Release 2000/04/27 (ver 1.19-?). There are much more commands available than mentioned in the CAS manual, e.g.: - GAMMA (gamma function, works even for complex arguments!) - PSI and Psi (polygamma and digamma function) - nice online help for the CAS commands - evidently all CAS commands are accessible from the command line in the home screen! - cool and sturdy design, except the rubber keys ... - not very advanced direct programming abilities (you have to write applets or libraries - I am still not familiar with that) So far I think it is a great price for what you get! (at ebay for around 50...60 EU) Greetings from Germany Axel ==== I have a hp-49 and know how to do all of the basic stuff. My dad has always had a 32s that he uses, and I tried it today. I noticed that it works differently. For example, 2 enter 2 enter 2 enter 2 enter. Now on the hp-49 I add them all and get six as the only thing remaining on the stack. On the 32s, I can continue hitting plus and it will add 2 forever. Would somone explain how the 32s functions in relation to the 49? Does the 32s just have 4 levels and the fourth level always duplicates? ==== >the fourth level always >duplicates thats the answer. be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== > Would somone explain how the 32s functions in relation to the 49? > Does the 32s just have 4 levels and the fourth level always > duplicates? > Try here http://www.hpmuseum.org/rpn.htm and here http://www.hpmuseum.org/rpnvers.htm ==== Are you SURE that there's going to be no new hardware produced? HP just > released the 9G and 9S and, though these are of probably not too much > interest to the folks in this group, I think it does show that HP is not > quite done with calculators just yet. that HP announced last November that they were back in the calculator business. Was this announcement made before or after they announced that they were out of the calculator business? Which is the latest news? - M ==== > I just read at > HP announced last November that they were back in the calculator > business. Was this announcement made before or after they announced > that they were out of the calculator business? Which is the latest > news? Since HP never announced that they were out of the calculator business, I'd say that the in announcement must be the latest. ==== > >I just read at >HP announced last November that they were back in the calculator >business. Was this announcement made before or after they announced >that they were out of the calculator business? Which is the latest >news? > Since HP never announced that they were out of the calculator business, > I'd say that the in announcement must be the latest. I guess I was confused after reading stuff like http://www.hpcalc.org/goodbyeaco.php I'd like to know just HP means (in the annoucement at handheld.org) by a new range of graphing calculators. - M ==== the whole concept of using the CAS becomes questionable. If we do all > by hand again, just to check the correctness of the results, then what > did we buy the machine for? Imagine what would happen if you had to Imagine what will happen if there were no people checking the CAS > results -- Imagine? Why imagine? I have the real result of not testing, the HP49G, in my hands every day ;-) > Those, who do check the results are called testers -- and most people > in this group cannot be called just bare users of HP calcs. So, am I to believe that I was doing beta-testing, gamma-testing, delta-testing,.... omega-testing for HP all these years? ;-) ==== > Those, who do check the results are called testers -- and most people > in this group cannot be called just bare users of HP calcs. So, am I to believe that I was doing beta-testing, gamma-testing, > delta-testing,.... omega-testing for HP all these years? ;-) Well, there are no bug-free products. If you haven't noticed them in TI, then you seem to be using your HP49G more ;) -- Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are. ==== > If the software of the TIs would be optimized in a comparable degree > to the software of the HP49, then the TIs would really blow the doors > off all competition. If software optimization is approx. the same, > then it is the hardware that decides about performance, even if this > group doesn't want to hear this. As the time passes by the software of > the TIs will be optimized, and I guess that the TIs still have much > much optimization potential, while the HP49G represents more or less > the endth degree of any tricks that you can find in order to increase > its performance. So the future, as it looks today, doesn't belong to > the archaic HP49G and its paleontological processor. Speaking of optomizations... I hate to give Hp people fodder, but some of the code that is used in the AMS is absolute junk. I've been coding and reverse engineering parts of it for a couple years. Here's an example of the code the compiler ti used has been know to generate: swap d0 swap d0 swap d0 here is another: swap d0 swap d0 For those of you who don't know what the swap instruction does I'll tell ya. It exchanges the upper half of the register with the lower half. So having two swaps in a row is redundant. Having three is stupidity. ==== >Speaking of optomizations... I hate to give Hp people fodder, but some of the code that is used in >the AMS is absolute junk. I've been coding and reverse engineering >parts of it for a couple years. Speaking of Hp people... You hate this, however you are still reading around. This Hp people must be really good... Jorge M. Valenzani ==== > Speaking of Hp people... > You hate this, however you are still reading around. This Hp people > must be really good... Yes the hp people are very good. But I am very good with my 89. I do own a 49g (got it when hp offered $75 dollar rebate) but I am much more comfortable with my ti89. Besides I got my 89 because it had a 68k processor because I had studied assembly in general and thought that the 68k processor was rather nice. For very complex math I use the student version of MathCAD. Yes it was purchased. -Samuel ==== I agree, the TI89 is much better than it is given credit for in this newsgroup which of course is understandable. Yes, I do own a 49G and love it too but, at least for me, the software development tools for the 89 are so outstanding you really can't beat it and the tools relate to flexibility I can make work. I guess the 49G people who have programmed a lot just might say the same for the 49...built in this and that, etc. However, if you are a C/C++ guy like me, its hands down for the 89 and I never owned any calc other than an HP. In fact, because of the compiler(s) available is the main reason I even considered the TI but still decided and bought the HP. Then, one day, I happen to find an 89 for $84 brand new at Office Depot and I asked the salesman several times is this the correct price? and he stated yes that is the price so I bought it. Later on his supervisor told him it was in the wrong bin and he just sold it for less than half price... as I was at the the TI-89 has, for the 49G I would never have even considered it. If anyone knows of a really good C/C++ development environment for the 49G PLEASE let me know! Through all my searching I have not found nothing close to what TI offers even though, albeit a long time ago, HP stated it was going to have this type of dev. software. No flames...I like 'em both. Just a IMHO, JF > Speaking of Hp people... > You hate this, however you are still reading around. This Hp people > must be really good... Yes the hp people are very good. But I am very good with my 89. I do own a 49g (got it when hp offered $75 dollar rebate) but I am > much more comfortable with my ti89. Besides I got my 89 because it > had a 68k processor because I had studied assembly in general and > thought that the 68k processor was rather nice. For very complex math I use the student version of MathCAD. Yes it > was purchased. > -Samuel ==== you guys could use the hp48 keyboard with a PDA and use the emu48 or emu89/92 at great spped! (or other math software) this is an idea with the sharp zaurus the hardware consist of: a butchered 48 keyboard (well, not a very elegant means) a serial encoder like http://www.semtech.com/pdf/doc5-703-ir20-ds.pdf a small PCB with batteries a foldable leather case so the keyboard with the IR lays on the left. the software: http://killefiz.de/zaurus/showdetail.php?app=817 that's all! no messing around with drivers or software development. is that evolution or what :) > I agree, the TI89 is much better than it is given credit for in this > newsgroup which of course is understandable. Yes, I do own a 49G and love it > too but, at least for me, the software development tools for the 89 are so > outstanding you really can't beat it and the tools relate to flexibility I > can make work. I guess the 49G people who have programmed a lot just might > say the same for the 49...built in this and that, etc. However, if you are a > C/C++ guy like me, its hands down for the 89 and I never owned any calc > other than an HP. In fact, because of the compiler(s) available is the main reason I even > considered the TI but still decided and bought the HP. Then, one day, I > happen to find an 89 for $84 brand new at Office Depot and I asked the > salesman several times is this the correct price? and he stated yes that > is the price so I bought it. Later on his supervisor told him it was in the > wrong bin and he just sold it for less than half price... as I was at the > the TI-89 has, for the 49G I would never have even considered it. If anyone knows of a really good C/C++ development environment for the 49G > PLEASE let me know! Through all my searching I have not found nothing close > to what TI offers even though, albeit a long time ago, HP stated it was > going to have this type of dev. software. No flames...I like 'em both. Just a IMHO, > JF > Speaking of Hp people... > You hate this, however you are still reading around. This Hp people > must be really good... >Yes the hp people are very good. But I am very good with my 89. >I do own a 49g (got it when hp offered $75 dollar rebate) but I am > much more comfortable with my ti89. Besides I got my 89 because it > had a 68k processor because I had studied assembly in general and > thought that the 68k processor was rather nice. >For very complex math I use the student version of MathCAD. Yes it > was purchased. > > -Samuel ==== you guys could use the hp48 keyboard with a PDA and use the emu48 or > emu89/92 at great spped! (or other math software) this is an idea with the sharp zaurus the hardware consist of: a butchered 48 keyboard (well, not a very elegant means) Is that a do it yourself method for having the keyboard of the 48? If so, then how much tinkering is involved? Is it easy for someone who has no idea about electronics? > a serial encoder like http://www.semtech.com/pdf/doc5-703-ir20-ds.pdf Why is that necessary? For data transfer? > a small PCB with batteries > a foldable leather case so the keyboard with the IR lays on the left. Oh, even I can understand these items ;-) > the software: http://killefiz.de/zaurus/showdetail.php?app=817 that's all! no messing around with drivers or software development. is that evolution or what :) Well, Raphael, it depends on the someone's skills. If it becomes too complicated to put all parts together, then it is an option only for people that know how to do such things. But for guys like me it could become a 100 years project ;-) Greetings and thanks for the info, Nick. ==== Are you referring to the file rpn2022.zip? I could not find any help file associated with it... or is it self explanatory if you're familiar with HP's RPN. > I'm sure you know the TI's also have RPN, right? I'm not trying to get > you to switch; I'm just trying to even the playing field a bit, > letting you guys know what the TI-68k really are. > Bhuvanesh. ==== > Are you referring to the file rpn2022.zip? I could not find any help > file associated with it... or is it self explanatory if you're > familiar with HP's RPN. You can get the (pretty extensive) documentation here: http://www.paxm.org/symbulator/download/rpn.html -- Bhuvanesh ==== That's what I did with my Atari 8 bit games and computers...now I feel like an idiot! > franks@lanset.com, Roger: the pain, anger and frustration that I'm feeling is that if my > HP49g dies then all the hundreds of hours that I invested in learning > how to use it are gone forever... can you garantee that I'll be able > to buy another one for myself, or my daughter, say in another three > years when she is in the middle of her first year of college? What is > she going to do then? Switch to what in the middle of her tests? Buy a > bunch now? Buy-a-bunch-now(tm) works for me. They're cheap, plentiful and work > as well as they ever did. I've got a couple of 49's, but I hate the > ergonomics and much prefer my 48's: 3x 48GX, a G and G+, 4x 48SX and a > 48S. I've got a 38G and 39G around here somewhere, a 12C, 16C, 28S and > a 32Sii as well. Printers, cables, books, software, emulators on just > about every other computer I have, including my iPaqs. I won't be running > out of HP calculators anytime soon. Not that I'm worried. I expect most of them will be working long after > I've stopped. ==== >If the software of the TIs would be optimized in a comparable degree >to the software of the HP49, then the TIs would really blow the doors >off all competition. If software optimization is approx. the same, >then it is the hardware that decides about performance, even if this >group doesn't want to hear this. As the time passes by the software of >the TIs will be optimized, and I guess that the TIs still have much >much optimization potential, while the HP49G represents more or less >the endth degree of any tricks that you can find in order to increase >its performance. So the future, as it looks today, doesn't belong to >the archaic HP49G and its paleontological processor. Both the saturn and the 68000 were developed in the late seventies, both were first deployed round 1979. In this terms they have both the same paleontological age..;) I personally think, that the TiOS software *is* optimized, but not to an extend found in the HP49G. Where do you nowadays find an OS (even in embedded hardware) which only uses 70 to 150K of RAM (seems to depend on the actual hardware, my Voyage 200 has only ca 109000 bytes free, whereas an TI89 should have 188K free), when started? But compare it to an HP49G, which uses only 3K ram after warmboot. After all, the HP is optimized in such an extrem way, because its the only chance to compete with the better hardware of the Ti68ks. IÇm sure, Ti will never optimize TiOS so much, because the corresponding development cost are just to high. If Ti feel the necessarity of making an faster calc, the will mainly use an faster coldfire or dragonball cpu core. Maybe they will port their TiOS or AMS to a fast Risc-CPU, which should be much easier then porting SysRPL because of the much more conventional OS design of TiOS. -- Mathias Habel mathias.habel_no-spam_@t-online.de Remove _no-spam_ before replying ==== >If the software of the TIs would be optimized in a comparable degree >to the software of the HP49, then the TIs would really blow the doors >off all competition. If software optimization is approx. the same, >then it is the hardware that decides about performance, even if this >group doesn't want to hear this. As the time passes by the software of >the TIs will be optimized, and I guess that the TIs still have much >much optimization potential, while the HP49G represents more or less >the endth degree of any tricks that you can find in order to increase >its performance. So the future, as it looks today, doesn't belong to >the archaic HP49G and its paleontological processor. Both the saturn and the 68000 were developed in the late seventies, > both were first deployed round 1979. In this terms they have both the > same paleontological age..;) Yep, but the 68000 is a more powerful paleontological processor. I can't think that a Mac could be developed that has a Saturn processor. > I personally think, that the TiOS software *is* optimized, but not to > an extend found in the HP49G. It may be optimized but still has much much unsused room for further optimization. > Where do you nowadays find an OS (even > in embedded hardware) which only uses 70 to 150K of RAM (seems to > depend on the actual hardware, my Voyage 200 has only ca 109000 bytes > free, whereas an TI89 should have 188K free), when started? But > compare it to an HP49G, which uses only 3K ram after warmboot. You see what I mean? The HP49G is already almost at the end of all possible speed-ups. The TI calcs with their 68000 have still much room for improvement, which makes me think that they will become performance monsters when this room will be used. > After all, the HP is optimized in such an extrem way, because its the > only chance to compete with the better hardware of the Ti68ks. IÇm > sure, Ti will never optimize TiOS so much, because the corresponding > development cost are just to high. Oh, I think TI *will* do. They have the market, they have the product. The next step will be to enhance the already existing products, as they did when they made the step from the TI92+ to the Voyage 200. > If Ti feel the necessarity of > making an faster calc, the will mainly use an faster coldfire or > dragonball cpu core. Maybe they will port their TiOS or AMS to a fast > Risc-CPU, which should be much easier then porting SysRPL because of > the much more conventional OS design of TiOS. Which in this case would mean that the HP49G would for sure look how the TIs pass it by at light speed. ==== I bought a HP-32S off of ebay and the manual that came with it was maybe I should have asked, but I didnt even this about it. I would buy the HP Museum cd of manuals but I already spent a lot on this calc and Im a engineering student without a lot of money. I would really like to have a manual. Could anyone send me a pdf file of the manual if ==== Download: http://www.twincar.sk/download/NewOS_073.zip Demo ==== I pulled out my TDS 512K RAM without freeing the memory, and now I can not find the Bank Switching code. Lib 803. into the Calculator. I have the Tripod TDS Manual that shows me how but I don't have the SW. (I thought it stayed on the Card - but they are not there - 803, 804 ...) Don Wichman ==== On the HP48 you could supply CHOOSE with a starting position of zero - this would make the CHOOSE-box a view only list. This do not work on the HP49G; Title {1 2 3} 0. CHOOSE works exactly like Title {1 2 3} 1. CHOOSE on the HP49G. It shouldn't. ==== My Question: (scroll down for more context) ------------ http://groups.google.com/groups?lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=n8ovauop5hdoq8 6o7h97kc5mi4v8pve1tt%404ax.com&rnum=8 ... discussed methods to replace the SystemOuterLoop by installing a custom procedure in the RAM variable FIRSTPROC (address #80EB0), which replaces the default StartupProc. As I don't speak ML, I looked around and adapted the following code from the sources of Java36a: :: ( Hp49G, masd, ROM 1.18 ) ' ID KKERNEL ROMPTR@ DROP ( This only works in port 0, but not in ports 1 or 2 ) CODE AD0EX ;save D0 D0=80EB0 ;FIRSTPROC addr Hp49G C=DAT1 A ;get addr of ROMPTR D1=D1+ 5 ;point to STK2 D=D+1 A ;pop STK1, incr mem. DAT0=C A ;write addr of ROMPTR ; into FIRSTPROC D0=A ;restore D0 LOOP ENDCODE ; @ After applying CRLIB, ID KKERNEL is the ROMPTR to my patched StartupProc. The above excerpt from $config works fine if the library is in port 0. Can anybody tell me what I have to do to make it work when the lib is in port 2? I suppose there's a problem with switching banks in the FlashRom, but I have no idea how to deal with the issue. Markus Context: -------- I've written an application to use a HP49 as a data-entry terminal for a portable label printer. Since the Hp49 is not gonna be used as a calculator, my ParOuterLoops completely redefine the keyboard. I print the new layout on a heavy paper and wrap the whole device in a self-adhesive foil to fasten the sheet. Interestingly, it's now much easier to type, since you can slide your fingers over the keyboard without having to lift them up for the passage. Furthermore, the keys feel less stiff than the uncovered rubber keys. The redefined layout doesn't use A-F as menu keys. This is no problem as long as my ParOuterLoops are in complete control of the screen. Unfortunately, that's not always the case: 1) TurnOff includes a call to ?FlashAlert, which causes an ugly Low Battery warning that must be acknowledged by F6, Enter or ON. I tried to use DEEPSLEEP in STARTOFF to turn the calc off, but it didn't work: after TOFF, the calc goes to sleep, but after 2 minutes or so, it magically wakes up, just to wait another 2 minutes until it calls STARTOFF again, recursively. This seems to be a rather battery-consuming bug. A forged TurnOff (without the ?FlashAlert) was my solution. When LowBatt? is TRUE on poweron, I provide my own (internationalized) Splash-Screen, which is dismissible with any key. 2) On a warmstart, StartupProc is executed. That guy also has a call to ?FlashAlert, and unfortunately _before_ ID STARTUP is executed. Therefore, I have to patch StartupProc as well, since I don't want case of a warmstart (due to unlikely ;-} internal bugs or extremely low battery conditions). ==== Today, after a dialog with my distributor (hp calculators) the last news are: Well, at this time there is the possibility to get 49G with english manual, but the price is always the same one. There are also 48G+ in inventory as well as 48GX. With regard to 19BII, aprox. in Julio a new version will come. And in April the new version of 17BII is expected. And a 12C Platinum also comes, for May aprox. As for 49G with Spanish manuals, it is expected that a special production arrives in May. !!** The one that will replace to 49G, aprox will come for August **!! Those are the news and HP continues the production of 10BII, 12C, 30S. Any comments?? JoGa ==== !!** The one that will replace to 49G, aprox will come for August **!! I wanted to flame, towards the general direction of HP management, but i decided to hold back. Anyway, after years of lurking (except some few posts) i am now here. ==== Could someone tell if this is true that HP will make a new calc to replace to 49G based on a new hardware and not just a colored box ? -- SunHP ( http://sunhp.jadeware.org/ ) 1042471386.803300@athprx02... > !!** The one that will replace to 49G, aprox will come for August **!! I wanted to flame, towards the general direction of HP management, but i > decided to hold back. > Anyway, after years of lurking (except some few posts) i am now here. ==== Sounds too good to be true... So I'll belive it when I see it. Then I'll analyze to find out if they're worth considering. -- Thierry Morissette thm47@msn.com Today, after a dialog with my distributor (hp calculators) the last > news are: Well, at this time there is the possibility to get 49G with english > manual, but the price is always the same one. There are also 48G+ in > inventory as well as 48GX. With regard to 19BII, aprox. in Julio a new version will come. And in April the new version of 17BII is expected. And a 12C Platinum also comes, for May aprox. As for 49G with Spanish manuals, it is expected that a special > production arrives in May. !!** The one that will replace to 49G, aprox will come for August **!! Those are the news and HP continues the production of 10BII, 12C, 30S. > Any comments?? JoGa ==== > !!** The one that will replace to 49G, aprox will come for August **!! Am I reading this right? Does that mean HP is coming out with some like an HP 50? Alex ==== > !!** The one that will replace to 49G, aprox will come for August **!! Those are the news and HP continues the production of 10BII, 12C, 30S. That's good news! Wonder what that will be... -- remove the obvious ==== hi ich habe seit kurzen den Hp49g. wer kann mir helfen wie l.9ase ich aufgaben welche aus 3 gleichungen und 3 unbekannten besteht??? ==== Hallo Am Besten erkl.8art anhand eines Beispiels: folgendes Gleichungssystem ist zu l.9asen: 2x + 5y + 7z = 33 2x + 2y + 2z = 12 3x + 4y + 2z = 17 Man erh.8alt die erweiterte Matrix: | 2 5 7 33 | | 2 2 2 12 | | 3 4 2 17 | Diese Matrix gibst Du in den Matrixwriter ein (LeftShift und MTRW) Danach f.9frst Du den Befehr RREF aus und bekommst. | 1 0 0 1 | X = 1 | 0 1 0 2 | Y = 2 | 0 0 1 3 | Z = 3 HTH Bernd > hi ich habe seit kurzen den Hp49g. wer kann mir helfen wie l.9ase ich > aufgaben welche aus 3 gleichungen und 3 unbekannten besteht??? ==== dank bernd ich weiss aber nicht wie man den befehl RREf eingibt. und was muss ich machen wenn zum beispiel bei einer aufgabe vor dem x ein A steht.? ==== > dank bernd ich weiss aber nicht wie man den befehl RREf eingibt. und was muss ich > machen wenn zum beispiel bei einer aufgabe vor dem x ein A steht.? Den Befehl kannst Du eintippen oder vom command catalog ausw.8ahlen. Mit A vor dem x meinst Du bestimmt einen symbolischen Koeffizienten von x, wie z.B. A*x+3*y=2. Im prinzip kannst Du exakt so vorgehen, wie f.9fr numerische Koeffizienten. OK, lass uns mal ein Beispiel probieren. Mit hilfe des Matrix Writer bilde den Vektor: [A*X-3*Y+Z=0 2*X-Y+4*Z=1 X+Y+Z=0] und lege ihn in stack ebene 1. Dann, bilde den Vector der Unbekanten [X Y Z] und lege ihn auch in den Stack. Dann benutz den Befehl LINSOLVE, um das Gleichungssystem zu l.9asen. (LINSOLVE is im Menu S.SLV) Ergebnis: [X=29/(5*A+3) Y=(11*A-5)/(5*A+3) Z=(4*A-15)/(5*A+3)] War ich verst.8andlich? Wenn nicht, sag mir bitte, was ich besser erkl.8aren soll, OK? Gruss, Nick. ==== Kannst Du das etwas genauer beschreiben? Was meinst Du mit .. wenn vor dem x ein A steht ? LG Bernd > dank bernd ich weiss aber nicht wie man den befehl RREf eingibt. und was muss ich > machen wenn zum beispiel bei einer aufgabe vor dem x ein A steht.? ==== Please help me save a longtime friend and faithful servant, my HP41CV. It worked great until a month ago when the batteries seemed dead. I put in fresh batteries, it worked but I noticed it now turned itself off after a minute of inactivity. Some weeks later I turned it on again and ... nothing. Hmmmm, it's never gone through a set of batteries that fast. Oh well... So I put in another set of new batteries. Now it gets interesting - the instant the batteries make contact the LCD display shows repeated non-characters across the display |/|/|/|/|/|/ which quickly start to fade. Connecting power several times yields similar but not identical results - sometimes the afore-mentioned patter appears, other times its a row of semicolons. And sometimes the fading takes longer but it always fades eventually. Any ideas? Tubori ==== Maybe you can try a memory reset first: turn-on while holding backspace key. Second, you can try hold on key for 30 seconds Third you can try turn-on while holding enter key. Fourth you can try discharging all capacitors - look for procedure at the forum of www.hpmuseum.org Fifth - look for someone to help - or try to find a replacement - ebay, international calculators or classic calculators ==== try taking out the batteries for 24 hours. short the +- of the calc's batt terminals. be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== Since you have not put in a valid reply-to address I'll answer here and you can get back to me. I repair these calculators and am willing to try to fix yours if you like. Let me know. > Please help me save a longtime friend and faithful servant, my HP41CV. It worked great until a month ago when the batteries seemed dead. > I put in fresh batteries, it worked but I noticed it now turned itself > off after a minute of inactivity. Some weeks later I turned it on again and ... nothing. Hmmmm, it's never > gone through a set of batteries that fast. Oh well... > So I put in another set of new batteries. Now it gets interesting - the instant the batteries make contact the > LCD display shows repeated non-characters across the display > |/|/|/|/|/|/ which quickly start to fade. Connecting power several times yields similar but not identical results - > sometimes the afore-mentioned patter appears, other times its a row > of semicolons. And sometimes the fading takes longer but it always fades > eventually. Any ideas? > Tubori > -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 ==== card) and initially was delighted. Soon, however, I got into a big trouble-vortex with the fonts. When applying FONT6 -> FONT before CLLCD text 1 DISP 7 FREEZE 0 WAIT, etc, CLLCD. I tried all kinds of flags, downloaded Ytrik and mkf flags, to no avail. On the HP49 the txt is FONT6. Even more disappointing, when applying Menu 30.01 (SOLVE ROOT SOLVR) the menu labels still show the old clunky HP CAPITALIZED letters. There must be a way around? ==== card) and initially was delighted. Soon, however, I got into a big trouble-vortex with the fonts. When applying FONT6 -> FONT before: CLLCD text 1 DISP 7 FREEZE 0 WAIT, etc, CLLCD. I tried all kinds of flags, downloaded Ytrik and mkf flags, to no avail. On the HP49 the txt is FONT6. Even more disappointing, when applying Menu 30.01 (SOLVE ROOT SOLVR) the menu labels still show the old clunky HP CAPITALIZED letters. There must be a way around it? Walt. ==== card) and initially was delighted. Soon, however, I got into a big trouble-vortex with the fonts. When applying FONT6 -> FONT before CLLCD text 1 DISP 7 FREEZE 0 WAIT, etc, CLLCD. I tried all kinds of flags, downloaded Ytrik and mkf flags, to no avail. On the HP49 the txt is FONT6. Even more disappointing, when applying Menu 30.01 (SOLVE ROOT SOLVR) the menu labels still show the old clunky HP CAPITALIZED letters. There must be a way around it but is it worth bothering? ==== with: > When applying FONT6 -> FONT before > CLLCD text 1 DISP 7 FREEZE 0 WAIT, etc, MK can't change the internal commands from HP48, so you have to manually replace them with the MK commands built on the MK library, this way you have to change DISP to DISP2, that comes: CLLCD text 1 DISP2 7 FREEZE 0 WAIT There are other commands 'replaced' such as INPUT -> INPUT2, HALT -> HALT2, ->STR -> ->S4, CHOOSE -> CHOOSE2, etc. What you have to do is replace in your programs the original command with the MK one, this way all will become with coherent fonts and will run with a faster speed. This is why there are different versions of the programs to MK and HP (for example Organizer). About the menus, in fact MK can't change their appearence in all places, specially in those ones (SOLVER), and MK don't replace the library menus too (I've compiled a version of FastLibMenu from Java to be usable with MK to put the fonts coherent, and much faster;). Paulo Pinheiro p_pinhas@clix.pt > card) and initially was delighted. Soon, however, I got into a big > trouble-vortex with the fonts. When applying FONT6 -> FONT before > CLLCD text 1 DISP 7 FREEZE 0 WAIT, etc, CLLCD. I tried all kinds of flags, downloaded Ytrik and mkf flags, to no > avail. On the HP49 the txt is FONT6. Even more disappointing, when applying Menu 30.01 (SOLVE ROOT SOLVR) the > menu labels still show the old clunky HP CAPITALIZED letters. There must be > a way around it but is it worth bothering? ==== card) and initially was delighted. Soon, however, I got into a big trouble-vortex with the fonts. When applying FONT6 -> FONT before CLLCD text 1 DISP 7 FREEZE 0 WAIT, etc, CLLCD. I tried all kinds of flags, downloaded Ytrik and mkf flags, to no avail. On the HP49 the txt is FONT6. Even more disappointing, when applying Menu 30.01 (SOLVE ROOT SOLVR) the menu labels still show the old clunky HP CAPITALIZED letters. There must be a way around? ==== card) and initially was delighted. Soon, however, I got into a big trouble-vortex with the fonts. When applying FONT6 -> FONT before CLLCD text 1 DISP 7 FREEZE 0 WAIT, etc, CLLCD. I tried all kinds of flags, downloaded Ytrik and mkf flags, to no avail. On the HP49 the txt is FONT6. Even more disappointing, when applying Menu 30.01 (SOLVE ROOT SOLVR) the menu labels still show the old clunky HP CAPITALIZED letters. There must be a way around? ==== a Walter Loss schrieb im Newsbeitrag > card) and initially was delighted. Soon, however, I got into a big > trouble-vortex with the fonts. When applying FONT6 -> FONT before > CLLCD text 1 DISP 7 FREEZE 0 WAIT, etc, CLLCD. I tried all kinds of flags, downloaded Ytrik and mkf flags, to no > avail. On the HP49 the txt is FONT6. Even more disappointing, when applying Menu 30.01 (SOLVE ROOT SOLVR) the > menu labels still show the old clunky HP CAPITALIZED letters. There must be > a way around? > ==== card) and initially was delighted. Soon, however, I got into a big trouble-vortex with the fonts. When applying FONT6 -> FONT before CLLCD text 1 DISP 7 FREEZE 0 WAIT, etc, CLLCD. I tried all kinds of flags, downloaded Ytrik and mkf flags, to no avail. On the HP49 the txt is FONT6. Even more disappointing, when applying Menu 30.01 (SOLVE ROOT SOLVR) the menu labels still show the old clunky HP CAPITALIZED letters. There must be a way around? ==== Walter Loss escribi.97 en el mensaje > card) and initially was delighted. Soon, however, I got into a big > trouble-vortex with the fonts. When applying FONT6 -> FONT before > CLLCD text 1 DISP 7 FREEZE 0 WAIT, etc, CLLCD. I tried all kinds of flags, downloaded Ytrik and mkf flags, to no > avail. On the HP49 the txt is FONT6. > Try DISP2 (decribed in the documentation) > Even more disappointing, when applying Menu 30.01 (SOLVE ROOT SOLVR) the > menu labels still show the old clunky HP CAPITALIZED letters. There must be > a way around? No, for these things MK is using the original ROM ==== I had problems logging on to this newsgroup because flash.net merged with prodigy and prodigy with sbcyahoo. Until they finally figured out how to upload all me previous (futile) attempts that were stored in the Outbox were also uploaded. That's why my SO Sorry! ==== Lets visit www.HP-Network.com Eric Vialle dd553de1.0212130523.7576115b@posting.google.com... I am an apprentice of the HP49G, already know a little USER and > SYSTEM, but I wanted to learn something on assembly. What documentation can help me? At this moment I am studying the documentation Introduction to Saturn > Assembly Language www.hpcalc.org ==== ML language on the 49 is the same than the 48 You'll find some doncs (english/french) on http://www.courbis.com There's - a french book about the 28 - a french book about the 48s/sx - a french book about the 48g/gx - an english book about the 48s/sx All freely available as PDFs :-) Luc > > Lets visit www.HP-Network.com > > > Eric Vialle > > > dd553de1.0212130523.7576115b@posting.google.com... > > >I am an apprentice of the HP49G, already know a little USER and >SYSTEM, but I wanted to learn something on assembly. > >What documentation can help me? > >At this moment I am studying the documentation Introduction to Saturn >Assembly Language www.hpcalc.org > > > ==== Does anyone have a survey levelling program that I can manually enter in my HP. Any websites or actual written progs appreciated. JB ==== Does anyone have a survey levelling program that I can manually enter in my > HP. > Any websites or actual written progs appreciated. JB Check http://www.hpcalc.org They probablu have one... Jorge Alberto ==== A pre-version of Usinagaz is available on Hpcalc.org, it now has an assembly and a sysrpl interface. It also now supports PAP & Dynamic DNS setting. I reimplemented tftp in assembly as a separated package, so it is now very fast (getting files was sooo slooow when in RPL) This is still a pre-version since both interfaces have not been thoroughly tested, but as for User interface, it does work, and Navigator 0.4 needs it, so... -- Samuel Thibault (By Dr. Greg Wettstein, Roger Maris Cancer Center) ==== Haven't got the opportunnity to try it out yet. If any of you or Yohan come to a future HP-Party in Paris, I'll be glad to come to see it working. I can't imagine the work you did in order to make this little piece of assembly software.. It's sound like a *Great* work ! See you, -- SunHP ( http://sunhp.jadeware.org/ ) > A pre-version of Usinagaz is available on Hpcalc.org, it now has an > assembly and a sysrpl interface. It also now supports PAP & Dynamic DNS > setting. I reimplemented tftp in assembly as a separated package, so it is now very > fast (getting files was sooo slooow when in RPL) This is still a pre-version since both interfaces have not been thoroughly > tested, but as for User interface, it does work, and Navigator 0.4 needs > it, so... > -- > Samuel Thibault ==== Me toooo... where and when will the future HP-Party be in Paris? Lilian. Haven't got the opportunnity to try it out yet. > If any of you or Yohan come to a future HP-Party in Paris, I'll be glad to > come to see it working. I can't imagine the work you did in order to make this little piece of > assembly software.. It's sound like a *Great* work ! See you, > -- > SunHP ( http://sunhp.jadeware.org/ ) > > A pre-version of Usinagaz is available on Hpcalc.org, it now has an > assembly and a sysrpl interface. It also now supports PAP & Dynamic DNS > setting. >I reimplemented tftp in assembly as a separated package, so it is now very > fast (getting files was sooo slooow when in RPL) >This is still a pre-version since both interfaces have not been thoroughly > tested, but as for User interface, it does work, and Navigator 0.4 needs > it, so... > > -- > Samuel Thibault (By Dr. Greg Wettstein, Roger Maris Cancer Center) > > ==== > Me toooo... where and when will the future HP-Party be in Paris? It was talked about on the HPParty forum on www.hp-sources.com, discussed about february holidays, but no more news since november... -- Samuel Thibault ==== > This is still a pre-version since both interfaces have not been thoroughly > tested, but as for User interface, it does work, and Navigator 0.4 needs > it, so... I can confirm that Usinagaz pre-0.3 is really faster that the previous versions ! Conclusion : if you own an external phone modem, you MUST try it on your HP49 !! ==== I need help to complete the new version of Navigator : that program is able to download, read online or offline HTML pages, and you can interact with the forms (write inside text areas and text input forms, push radio buttons, check checkboxes, select options, etc.) but I need to know how to send a form using the POST method. I read the RFC of the HTTP protocol version 1.1, but I still don't understand how you can send full texts : you must send something like : POST http://www.domain.com/abs_path HTTP/1.1 Host: www.domain.com Data1: value1 Data2: value2 ... but when the value is a text, how to explain to the server that the : of the text is not the sign which separates a name of data from its value ? Could somebody write me an example of form sent with the http protocol ? My adresse : yoanndesir@yahoo.com Yoann D.8esir. ==== > but when the value is a text, how to explain to the server that the > : of the text is not the sign which separates a name of data from > its value ? I traced w3m with tcpdump, and I worked out that characters which have special meanings are quoted : if a textarea is filled like this : blip: blop it sends blip%3A%0D%0Ablop ++ -- Samuel Thibault AUTHOR FvwmM4 is the result of a random bit mutation on a hard disk, presumably a result of a cosmic-ray or some such thing. (extrait de la page de man de FvwmM4) ==== > but when the value is a text, how to explain to the server that the > : of the text is not the sign which separates a name of data from > its value ? I traced w3m with tcpdump, and I worked out that characters which have > special meanings are quoted : if a textarea is filled like this : blip: > blop it sends blip%3A%0D%0Ablop Bye, Yoann. ==== I just got my HP40G and have two questions concerning the CAS mode: 1) How can I simplify LN(EXP(i)) to i, aside from switching to the Approx mode and getting (1.15E-14,1)? 2) Is there any way to edit a defined function, e.g. DEF(F(X)=SIN(X)/X)? If I select the function in the VARS menu of the CAS, switch to the edit mode and press OK (with or without editing) I get an Invalid Syntax error. I appreciate any help. Axel ==== > 1) How can I simplify LN(EXP(i)) to i http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38477F5B.5E91D4E3%40fourier.ujf-grenobl e.fr http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=37E699BF.BB277CBA%40fourier.ujf-grenobl e.fr > 2) Is there any way to edit a defined function, e.g. > DEF(F(X)=SIN(X)/X)? If I select the function in the VARS menu of the > CAS, switch to the edit mode and press OK (with or without editing) I > get an Invalid Syntax error. Do you get this: << -> X SIN(X)/X > ? That's User-RPL. You shouldn't get that :) Before pressing OK, you should rewrite/edit it in algebraic form: e.g. SHIFT CLEAR SIN(X-1)/X [OK] Now F contains SIN(X-1)/X. BTW, didn't you ask for a way to show the time and date permanently on the HOME environment? I've tried to write a 38G aplet to do this (*), modifying StartupProc, but the clock (in the display area DA1) is not updated every second, only when a key is pressed. I've tried with FORTY SetSysFlag, CLKON (48:0CED9), setting ClkOnNib ... nothing seems to work. Any ideas? HPCC #1046 (*) I find it easier to write aplets for the 38G first and then port them to the 39/40G as I know more entries for my Elsie. Once the 38G aplet has been written, it's just a matter of searching the 39/40 ROM for the unsupported entries used. ==== 1) How can I simplify LN(EXP(i)) to i Now a math question that i'm not sure, Can't I simplify Ln(Exp(i*x)) to > i*x, or this simplification can be done only in special cases? > ln(exp(i*x)) is different from x in general, for example try with > x=2*pi. > ln(exp(x))=x on the reals only OK - that ist true, but for Ln(Exp(i)) the answer should be i. > 2) Is there any way to edit a defined function, e.g. > DEF(F(X)=SIN(X)/X)? If I select the function in the VARS menu of the > CAS, switch to the edit mode and press OK (with or without editing) I > get an Invalid Syntax error. Do you get this: << -> X SIN(X)/X > ? > That's User-RPL. You shouldn't get that :) Before pressing OK, you should > rewrite/edit it in algebraic form: e.g. SHIFT CLEAR SIN(X-1)/X [OK] > Now F contains SIN(X-1)/X. an Invalid User Function if you evaluate the function afterwards... > BTW, didn't you ask for a way to show the time and date permanently on the > HOME environment? I've tried to write a 38G aplet to do this (*), modifying > StartupProc, but the clock (in the display area DA1) is not updated every > second, only when a key is pressed. I've tried with FORTY SetSysFlag, CLKON > (48:0CED9), setting ClkOnNib ... nothing seems to work. Any ideas? No - and I am not yet so familiar with those details. But, Martin Lang probably did have the same problem programming his nice calendar for Library L1540... Axel ==== > ... nothing seems to work. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DEB29B0.5090109%40ut.ee which uses CLKON (PTR CED9 in the HP48) and to Dan Kirkland's: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2b4b9293.2560.5comp.sys.hp48.1%40hpcvbb s.cv.hp.com which reveals that clock routines are used inside GETKEY, a first version is ready for betatesting. HPCC #1046 X-Comment-To: ALL ==== Is there anywhere that I can get a prefabricated modem for the hp49? Is anyone still making these? thanks. ==== > Is there anywhere that I can get a prefabricated modem for the hp49? Is > anyone still making these? Doesn't any external modem work ? -- Samuel Thibault X-Comment-To: Samuel Thibault ==== Is there anywhere that I can get a prefabricated modem for the hp49? Is > anyone still making these? Doesn't any external modem work ? > Yes, but it just needs the proper adapter. I am wondering if anyone will sell me a modem that already has this adapter for the 49 attached. ==== How i can use the command DoCRC in ML? ==== > How i can use the command DoCRC in ML? > Here's an example, poking the CRC of a lib in its last four nibs: * * adds the CRC to the end of a library * the lib must have the space for the CRC included; this * prog merely pokes the right CRC in the 4 last nibs. * D9D20 :: E9E52 CK1NoBlame 82362 CK&DISPATCH1 11920 # 8F F8000 D9D20 :: F9E52 CKREF CCD20 CODE 03000 8FB9760 GOSBVL =SAVPTR 143 A=DAT1 A 130 D0=A 164 D0=D0+ 5 142 A=DAT0 A 818F83 A=A-CON A,4 8F18950 GOSBVL =DoCRC 1583 DAT0=A 4 8D34150 GOVLNG =GETPTRLOOP ENDCODE B2130 ; B2130 ; Werner Huysegoms ==== Well, I have been using a bruised LCD screen HP48GX and I don't know where to get a replacement LCD screen. Since this bruise doesn't seem to be going away, is it advisable for me to purchase a new 48gx? Or is there something better out there? ==== I have a dead HP48G with an intact Screen ! If you are willing to pay the shipping costs, I would send you the calc. Please let me know - I am located in Austria ! Greetings Bernd Anthaam schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Well, I have been using a bruised LCD screen HP48GX and I don't know > where to get a replacement LCD screen. Since this bruise doesn't seem > to be going away, is it advisable for me to purchase a new 48gx? Or > is there something better out there? > ==== of the teardrop shaped black rubber pads. Does anyone know where/ how to get a replacement? thanks, franks ==== I would like to print with my 48GX to a PCL compatible printer. I have the PCL driver from HP (downloaded from hpcalc.org). My problem is that I only have access to printers with a parallel connection. I have seen that there are serial/parallel protocol converters available. Has someone used such a converter successfully? Is there a particular one that you would recommend. The Greenwich Instruments GA935 looks interesting to me. Patrick Rendulic ==== wie kann man mit dem hp 49g eine ebene: 2x-z+1=0 und eine x | 1| | 2| gerade: y = | 1| + t | 1| z |-1| |-1| berechnen so das der durchsto¤punkt herrauskommt. ==== > wie kann man mit dem hp 49g eine > ebene: 2x-z+1=0 und eine > x | 1| | 2| > gerade: y = | 1| + t | 1| > z |-1| |-1| > berechnen so das der durchsto¤punkt herrauskommt. Wenn ich Dich richtig verstanden habe, m.9achtest Du den Durchsto¤punkt der Gerade[x y z]=[1+2*t 1+t -1-t] mit der Ebene 2*x-z+1=0 finden, oder? Eine der zahlreichen Methoden w.8are: 1) Aus der Gleichung der Ebene bilde den Vektor, dessen Spitze auf der selben Ebene liegt. D.h.: Zuerst l.9asen wir 2*X-Z+1=0 z auf. Wir geben die Gleichung '2*X-Z+1=0' und die Variable 'Z' ein. Dann benuthen wir den Befehl ZEROS und finden: 2*X+1. Also ist der gesuchte Vektor [X Y 2*X+1]. F.9fr jede m.9agliche Kombination von Werten f.9fr X und Y, wird die Spitze des Vektors auf der Ebene 2*X-Z+1=0 . 2) Der Durchsto¤punkt befindet sich genau da, wo die Vektoren der Ebene und der Gerade alle Koordinaten gleich haben. D.h.: wir mussen die beiden Vektoren [X Y 2*X+1] und [1+2*t 1+t -1-t] einander gleich setzen. Da der HP49G gegen algebraische Objekten mit Vektoren ist, benutzen wir Listen um. Mit der L.9asung von Schritt 1 auf Stack-Ebene 1, gib ein 'X' und dann 'Y'. Dr.9fck ROT. Gib eine 3 ein und dr.9fck ->LIST. Benutze den Matrix Writer, um den Vektor der Gerade [1+2*t 1+t -1-t] einzugeben. Dann benutze den Befehl AXL, um den Vektor zu einer Liste umzuwandeln. Dr.9fck =, um eine Liste mit drei Gleichungen zu bekommen. 3) Jetzt m.9fssen wir nach X,Y,t l.9asen. Gib den Vektor [X Y t] ein und dr.9fck SOLVE. Du kriegst: {[X=-3/5 Y=1/5 t=-4/5)}. Jetzt hast Du die X- und Y- koordinaten des Durchsto¤punktes, aber Z fehlt noch. Benutze den Befehl HEAD, um den Vektor der L.9asungen aus der Liste heraus- zu nehmen. Dr.9fck ENTER um eine Kopie des Vektors zu machen. Die Z- Koordinate kann man aus der Z-Koordinate der Gerade mit hilfe von t berechnen. Die Z-Koordinate der Gerade war -t-t. Gib diesen Ausdruck ein. Dann druck SWAP und 3 GET, um t=-4/5 aus dem Vektor zu bekommen. Druck SUBST und dann EXPAND. Das Ergebnis, -1/5 ist die Z koordinate des Durchsto¤punktes. 4) Durch R.9fcksubstitution der X,Y,Z Koordinaten des Durchsto¤punktes kannst Du auch nachschauen, ob die L.9asung stimmt. Hoffentlich hat es ein wenig geholfen, Nick. ==== wie kann man mit dem hp 49g eine ebene: 2x-z+1=0 und eine x |1| |2| gerade: y = |1| + t |1| z |-1| |-1| berechnen so das der durchsto¤punkt herrauskommt. ==== I'm the developer of NewOS & I want to port it to HP48, but I don't want to recompile it every time, so I want to dynamically(using my routine) detect if it is running on HP48 or HP49 and also if it is HP48G or GX. So .. can anyone help me? And ... it seams, that noone is interested in NewOS. Because there were no replies to new version, but I don't care, I am still continuing to develope it :-) Demo ==== > And ... it seams, that noone is interested in NewOS. Because there > were no replies to new version, but I don't care, I am still > continuing to develope it :-) Sorry for not giving feedback. I was so impressed I forgot all about applauding you. -- Al ==== Demo schrieb im Newsbeitrag I'm the developer of NewOS & I want to port it to HP48, but I don't > want to recompile it every time, so I want to dynamically(using my > routine) detect if it is running on HP48 or HP49 and also if it is > HP48G or GX. So .. can anyone help me? > For the ML part of your program, it'll be not too much overhead dynamically deciding on which platform it is running. There are standard methods for this. Only addresses which have changed would have to be handled. The problem are the RPL entries... I'd suggest to use the HP-48 *SX* as base platform, so it may be easier to port it to the other platforms. > And ... it seams, that noone is interested in NewOS. Because there > were no replies to new version, but I don't care, I am still > continuing to develope it :-) > I would be interested in NewOS, if there were a version for the HP-48. The 49G isn't of much interest for me. Raymond ==== > Demo schrieb im Newsbeitrag >I'm the developer of NewOS & I want to port it to HP48, but I don't > want to recompile it every time, so I want to dynamically(using my > routine) detect if it is running on HP48 or HP49 and also if it is > HP48G or GX. So .. can anyone help me? > For the ML part of your program, > it'll be not too much overhead dynamically > deciding on which platform it is running. > There are standard methods for this. > Only addresses which have changed would have to be handled. > The problem are the RPL entries... > I'd suggest to use the HP-48 *SX* as base platform, > so it may be easier to port it to the other platforms. > NewOS is _NOT_ using RPL entries, except some ACCESSERAM1 on HP49. > And ... it seams, that noone is interested in NewOS. Because there > were no replies to new version, but I don't care, I am still > continuing to develope it :-) > I would be interested in NewOS, > if there were a version for the HP-48. > The 49G isn't of much interest for me. > Raymond Port is READY ! :-) Bye. ==== Raymond Hellstern escribi.97 en el mensaje > I would be interested in NewOS, > if there were a version for the HP-48. > The 49G isn't of much interest for me. > Raymond Of those words, I'll only change the name. X-Comment-To: R Lion ==== > Raymond Hellstern escribi.97 en el > I would be interested in NewOS, > if there were a version for the HP-48. The 49G isn't of much interest > for me. Raymond > I am very interested as well. I made a quick attempt at writing a general threaded os for the 49 a while back but it never got off the ground. I would like a 49 port mostly because of the added memory it has. ==== First time I heard about this project.. Any url for NewOS ? -- SunHP ( http://sunhp.jadeware.org/ ) 5786730d.0301120931.7f910a69@posting.google.com... I'm the developer of NewOS & I want to port it to HP48, but I don't > want to recompile it every time, so I want to dynamically(using my > routine) detect if it is running on HP48 or HP49 and also if it is > HP48G or GX. So .. can anyone help me? And ... it seams, that noone is interested in NewOS. Because there > were no replies to new version, but I don't care, I am still > continuing to develope it :-) Demo > ==== I've got a 48g that won't turn on or off reliably. It appears that the ON button contacts stick together. If I spray contact cleaner through the gaps around the key to clean off the contact, is it going to mess up or destroy anything in the calculator? Should I remove the batteries (thus losing all my programs) during this process? ==== 1. As some people did not hear about that... This is only download & there is no site yet. http://www.twincar.sk/download/NewOS_073.zip 2. The biggest issue between HP49 & 48 is keyboard(for now only:-), therefore if I could decide if it is HP48 or HP49 using software, the only thing neccessery to change would be HPHP48 & HPHP49 at the beginning of file. So does anyone know how? And about HP48S(X) I do not have it (neither calc nor ROM image) so I cannot port it. Demo ==== Demo escribi.97 en el mensaje > So does anyone know how? And about HP48S(X) I do not have it (neither > calc nor ROM image) so I cannot port it. I'm not sure but, have you looked for in hpcalc.org? ==== I notice on the HP website awhile back that the HP 38G had a slide cover. I have looked over the HP site but can not find a mention to it in replacement parts. Sense the 38G is using the 48 stile case, those cover should work on the 48 as well. Does anyone know what the part number is for the cover or know where covers can be found? Richard Garner rgarner@vidnet.net ==== The 39G used the same keyboard/case as the 49G but the 38G was a completely new molding. There's no way that the 38G's sliding cover will work with anything other than the 38G. > I notice on the HP website awhile back that the HP 38G had a slide cover. I > have looked over the HP site but can not find a mention to it in replacement > parts. Sense the 38G is using the 48 stile case, those cover should work on > the 48 as well. Does anyone know what the part number is for the cover or > know where covers can be found? Richard Garner > rgarner@vidnet.net ==== > Since the 38G is using the 48 style case, those covers > should work on the 48 as well. Sorry, but the 38G case is very different from the 48 case. The 38G slide-on cover does not fit on the 48. -Joe- ==== Richard Garner schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I notice on the HP website awhile back that the HP 38G had a slide cover. I > have looked over the HP site but can not find a mention to it in replacement > parts. Sense the 38G is using the 48 stile case, those cover should work on > the 48 as well. Does anyone know what the part number is for the cover or > know where covers can be found? > The HP-38G doesn't have the same case as the HP-48, and the slide cover doesn't fit on it. The HP-38G case has a rail for the cover, which the HP-48 doesn't have. Alos the back of the HP-48 is rounded, whereas the case of the 38G is nearly straight rectangular in shape. AFAIK the slide-on cover of the 38G is an integral part of the machine, which normally doesn't get lost... Raymond ==== there are some new tools on my 49-site. In particular, a I/O manager named IOMAN, a small 2-page library. The first page is for file transfer, the second for printing. The main advantage over the tranfer tools from APPS or over 104 MENU is that all true parameter values in IOPAR or PRTPAR can be toggled in place with a corresponding menu option. E.g., ~cksm toggles the three possible values of the checksum parameter in IOPAR, etc. No need anymore to remember the precise domain of valid arguments. Another advantage is that list arguments for commands like XSEND have not to be produced in advance or by using lengthy Inform boxes. The argument names are simply put into a waiting input list which is fast and safe. New or updated tools are only on my site. I'm presently unable to launch hpcalc/contribution. - Wolfgang ==== Great news for HP48 fans! After spending the whole Sunday playing with NewOS I finally finished porting it to HP48. download: http://www.twincar.sk/download/NewOS_074.zip Have fun! Demo ==== CST If you have a group of favorite functions you'd like to reach in your daily works, put them in a list like shown below. { R->P, P->R, OCT, HEX, DEC, COS } CST If you were to enter the above items, you would find the six functions in the curly brackets in the CST menu. VAR The are not funtions, but PROGRAMS and DIRECTORYS, and VARIABLES only... Hope it helps! Wilson Head, PE I don't really understand the difference between VAR and CST-Buttons. > In both I can save variables and equations? > Can anyone help me? > Daniel ==== > If you have a group of favorite functions you'd like to reach in your > daily works, put them in a list like shown below. { R->P, P->R, OCT, HEX, DEC, COS } CST If you were to enter the above items, you would find the six functions in > the curly brackets in the CST menu. You'll have better results with { R->P, P->R, OCT, HEX, DEC, COS } MENU -Joe- ==== Ooops! I made a mistake & keys 456 did not work on HP48. But it is fixed. http://www.twincar.sk/download/NewOS_074r2.zip Demo ==== HP 48 SX and 512K TDS RAM Card for sale. (4 by 128K Bank-Switching) I have the Manual, Nylon Case, and Original Box - Asking $75 (USD) Calculator is in Excellent Condition. Paypal - or Cashiers Check only - Don Wichman ==== I would just like to say thank you for your wonderful contributions to the HP48,49 community. I currently have 5 of your libs installed in my HP49 ( Keyman, Appsman, Tetri, OT49, AdjClk ) plus Filer2 and a modified ChKM program. ( Keyman is definitely a must have for any HP49 user ) Your programs are efficient both in speed and size and I have learnt allot by just poking around the code. I really got excited the other month with your release of ChKM ( which you now incorporated in Keyman). I have found that the command line input response slows with the number of key assignments. ( I generally run with 70 assignments) So to speed up the input I stored both a full and basic ( 28 assignments ) set of keymaps and used the 0 DELKEYS STOKEYS commands to switch between them. This method was so slow... Your ChKM changed all that for which I am very grateful. Once again thankyou. Rick Neufeld ==== I want to give labels to the output values of my program. Something like 2: 1: x: 456.34 This happens e.g. when I do statistics; then the output is also labeled. anks Waldemar -- Don't forget that MS-Windows ist just a temporary workaround until you can switch to a GNU system ;-) [gnupg-w32-1.0.6 - Readme.w32] Waldemar -- Multiple exclamation marks are a sure guarantee for a low score. ==== > [..] > I want to give labels to the output values of my program. Something like 2: > 1: x: 456.34 > Very easy: 2: 456.34 1: Any String ->TAG 1: Any String: 456.34 > -- > Don't forget that MS-Windows ist just a temporary workaround until you > can switch to a GNU system ;-) > [gnupg-w32-1.0.6 - Readme.w32] > Don't forget to RTFM first... Raymond ==== I have the following problem with porting NewOS to HP48G: What I need to do is first copy OS onto address #80000. That is the beginning of RAM. Now I have to reconfigure RAM to start to #00000 and jump to that address, but the problem is that once I unconfigure RAM, there is no place I can ran loader. So does anyone know a place in memory map that I can store 13 nibbles of data and it will not change after I unconfigure RAM? Or any other solutions? Maybe a ROM call? Demo PS: If you are going to say, that noone uses HP48G, you might be right, but I still want to port it:-) ==== > So does anyone know a place in memory map that I can store 13 nibbles > of data and it will not change after I unconfigure RAM? Or any other > solutions? Maybe a ROM call? Are your data always the same ? If yes, Did you try to find as stable code in 48 Roms ? Else you might put it in io ram, Julien Angeli did such things to measure cycles with io ram. If what you need is merely instructions which configure ram at #00000 and jump to it, you may Push one address in ROM per instruction, the code in ROM doing that instruction and then RTNing. Docs about getting interrupt control on hp48 explain this. -- Samuel Thibault ==== I know ramcards are cheap these days, but I enjoy making things even if I'm a horrible amateur. So as a holiday project, I made a ramcard. This is to avoid opening up and direct soldering, as I did for my older calc. The chip is a bq4016y, so it already has the battery and logic to switch to and from the internal battery. All my card needs to do is make the connections to the socket for the chip. But as you probably suspect from such an amateur, it doesn't work. The symptom is, with WP off the card is ignored and with WP on (low), it says invalid card data and the port shows up empty (even when there is data on the chip, put there by my other calc.). Naturally, I'm not asking someone to tell me what's wrong: you're not here, you can't see it. But I'm asking for suggestions of things to check. I'm hoping some of you will be willing to give me your list of common mistakes, things often overlooked, your troubleshooting procedure which works for you, etc. I can tell you that there are no shorts between all pins, and I checked for the proper connections. This was done it what I think was a foolproof way: I have a working expanded calc. where I have soldered an IC socket with tiny wires to the expansion slot. I plug the ramcard in this slot and see with a meter that each pin on this socket is connected the same pin of the socket on my card. Is there a flaw in this reasoning? Besides data and address connections, I have pad 39 grounded to pad 40. I have pad 38 and pad 2 connected to pad 1. Pad 37 is floating or grounded through a switch. CE goes through an inverter since this chip has only /CE. Now, since etching requires more skill than I guess I have, many of my traces ended up with opens in then, which I repaired with silver paint. As a result, several traces have up to 5 ohms resistance, one even up to 20 ohms. Can this be a problem? I thought with the small currents, there will be minimal voltage drop due to these resistances. Well, if I didn't bore you with these details and you read this far, thoughts on the resistance issue and any other suggestions would be welcome. Karl. ==== > But as you probably suspect from such an amateur, it doesn't work. > The symptom is, with WP off the card is ignored and with WP on (low), > it says invalid card data and the port shows up empty (even when there > is data on the chip, put there by my other calc.). Send me the schematic of what you did, and i'll take a look. Don't use this address, use: <>>< stevesousa --->> <>>< at --->> <>>< bigfoot -->> <>>< dot ->>> <>>< com Steve Sousa ==== I recently checked the hp website in hopes of replacing my broken 32SII (Dropped on the floor). Anyway I had heard that all scientific calculators in RPN had been lost (sobbing,crying,wailing). Even if RPN is lost I still love the feel of an HP keyboard over any other brand like TI,Casio, or Sharp. So I decided to buy the 20S. The last HP scientific with a good keyboard. It was not on the HP website the 20S is now discontinued also! THe only traditional style hp is 48GX!!!! Can anyone confirm this? CID ==== > I recently checked the hp website in hopes of replacing my broken > 32SII (Dropped on the floor). Anyway I had heard that all scientific > calculators in RPN had been lost (sobbing,crying,wailing). Even if RPN > is lost I still love the feel of an HP keyboard over any other brand > like TI,Casio, or Sharp. So I decided to buy the 20S. The last HP The 20S has been discontinued over 3 years ago now... The main decision behind it was the obvious fact it was not selling at all. The 32S is probably due to the lack of main components -- --- remove the obvious ==== Having rigged up my IR Printers all right with the battery eliminator (well not really as we all know, but anyway...) IÇm up to a new challenge, namely setting it up for printing to my Çvery old inkjet stylewriter (mac) with somekind of a serial input. SO hereÇs the questions: Does anyone know the format for the serial protocol for the Stylewriter II ? Has anybody tried prtinting to it (successfully)? TIA Matti ==== Having rigged up my IR Printers all right with the battery eliminator > (well not really as we all know, but anyway...) IÇm up to a new > challenge, namely setting it up for printing to my Çvery old inkjet > stylewriter (mac) with somekind of a serial input. SO hereÇs the > questions: > Does anyone know the format for the serial protocol for the > Stylewriter II ? Has anybody tried prtinting to it (successfully)? TIA > Matti I think that you first have to setup the printer (using the Mac) to the correct parameters (baud etc.). Then connect it to the HP and just XMIT the strings you want to have printed. You don't have to emulate protocols. ==== > Does anyone know the format for the serial protocol for the > Stylewriter II ? Has anybody tried prtinting to it (successfully)? >I think that you first have to setup the printer (using the Mac) to >the correct parameters (baud etc.). Then connect it to the HP and just >XMIT the strings you want to have printed. You don't have to emulate protocols. You make it sound so easy Nick :-) The StyleWriter was probably the first all graphic printer in that it doesn't have a built in character set so sending it normal ascii won't result in anything recognisable. He needs to know how to generate a bit pattern and send that in order for it to be printed out properly. This is what he means by emulate protocols. There's a website - http://www.lowendmac.com (or similar, I'm going from memory here) that specialises in providing information about the older Macintosh machines. Maybe there is something there about the StyleWriter. -- Bruce Horrocks Hampshire England bh@granby.demon.co.uk ==== > You make it sound so easy Nick :-) Ouch! The above sounded rather like, I'll show you easyness ;-) > The StyleWriter was probably the first all graphic printer in that it > doesn't have a built in character set so sending it normal ascii won't > result in anything recognisable. What? No built-in character set? > He needs to know how to generate a bit > pattern and send that in order for it to be printed out properly. This > is what he means by emulate protocols. That means the Mac has to built the bit patterns before sending data to the printer? Anyway, even then we could just send the bit patterns as strings without having to re-code serial transmission. Only the data itself has to be converted to something that the printer can understand. > There's a website - http://www.lowendmac.com (or similar, I'm going from > memory here) that specialises in providing information about the older > Macintosh machines. Maybe there is something there about the > StyleWriter. very much. ==== thanks in advance for your help, -- fuf ==== > thanks in advance for your help, That library is included in your 49 just type the following commands to get to it. << 256 ATTACH 256 MENU > first you ATTACH the libray with it's number [256] on the stack, the you can go to it's menu by typing 256 MENU guillen ==== > first you ATTACH the libray with it's number [256] on the stack, > the you can go to it's menu by typing 256 MENU > guillen That doesn't seem to be the case with v1.19-6. I don't have the attach command in my startup var, and 256 menu works anyway. The lib also appears as Development lib in the APPS window. Bill ==== > That doesn't seem to be the case with v1.19-6. I don't have the > attach command in my startup var, and 256 menu works anyway. The lib > also appears as Development lib in the APPS window. That may be because of some library you have installed. E.g. OT49 does the attaching automatically in its $CONFIG. Thomas -- Thomas Rast If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S. Truman ==== That may be because of some library you have installed. E.g. OT49 > does the attaching automatically in its $CONFIG. How about that! What a great program OT49 is - it does good things even when I'm not using it. :-) Bill ==== > That doesn't seem to be the case with v1.19-6. I don't have the > attach command in my startup var, and 256 menu works anyway. The lib > also appears as Development lib in the APPS window. That may be because of some library you have installed. E.g. OT49 > does the attaching automatically in its $CONFIG. Related trivia: Holding down the B, C and D keys during a warmstart also attaches library 256. 256 MENU always works, in any HP 49G ROM version, if you execute the commands directly from the menu, not in program mode. This is true of any library, whether attached or not. -Joe- ==== Related trivia: Holding down the B, C and D keys during a warmstart also attaches library > 256. I always remember it as CdB ;-) Gjermund ==== You can find it, in the Eric Rechlin Web site ... http://ca-on.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=2990 This is explained by Joseph Horn. Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK. **************************************************************************** *** > thanks in advance for your help, That library is included in your 49 just type the following commands to get to it. << 256 ATTACH 256 MENU first you ATTACH the libray with it's number [256] on the stack, > the you can go to it's menu by typing 256 MENU > guillen ==== The lib 256 is a library bult in the HP49 but disabled by default that contains lots of low level devlopment tools like ASM programming and System Rpl programming. you can activate it by typing 256 ATTACH (in RPN mode) or ATTACH(256) in ALG mode. You can find information on www.hpcalc.org on each command in this library. > group that speak of lib 256. can anyone please tell me what it is, resp. where i can find it? thanks in advance for your help, -- > fuf ==== > You can find information on www.hpcalc.org on each command in this library. Oomph... That ancient document needs updating. It's older than the following commands in library 256: CRC -- converts a string (of what?) to a checksum. MAKESTR -- rapidly generates a string of any desired length. n --> $ SERIAL -- returns the internal S/N of the calculator if the HP49G was not made in China. ASM -- calls the asm command in library 257; converts System RPL & Assembly Language source code (in string form) into a binary object. ER -- calls the er command in library 257; launches an error-handler useful if ASM errors out. ->S2 -- disassembles a binary object into source code, with Code objects converted to simple hex. To disassemble Code objects, use ASM->. XLIB~ -- toggles between an XLIB and two numbers (library ID, command #). Anybody know how to use CRC? Also, the explanation of BetaTesting in the original document was, of course, a joke. If you need to create a string, use MAKESTR. Any corrigenda or addenda on your agenda? Please post 'em! Thanx. -Joe- ==== Hallo NG! Ich habe auf meinem HP49G eine HP49 Demo Bibliothek gefunden. F.9fr was ist die gut, bzw. was kann ich denn damit machen? PS: Ich bin noch Newbie und hab keine Ahnung, wie man auf Bibliotheken zugreift / diese ausf.9fhrt. MfG Robert ==== Robert schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Hallo NG! Ich habe auf meinem HP49G eine HP49 Demo Bibliothek gefunden. > F.9fr was ist die gut, bzw. was kann ich denn damit machen? > Nichts, denn wie der Name schon sagt, ist es eine selbstablaufende DEMO. Du kannst sie unbesorgt l.9aschen. > PS: Ich bin noch Newbie und hab keine Ahnung, wie man auf Bibliotheken > zugreift / diese ausf.9fhrt. > Dazu empfehle ich Dir dringend die Lekt.9fre des Handbuchs, f.9fr tiefer greifende Infos gibt es www.hpcalc.org. Aber wie gesagt, lies erst mal die Doku. Falls bei Deinem 49G keine Doku dabei war, gibt es diese auch auf www.hpcalc.org Raymond BTW: Next time I'll answer in english only ==== ...damit machen? I think I understand that. Toby Robert schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Hallo NG! >Ich habe auf meinem HP49G eine HP49 Demo Bibliothek gefunden. > F.9fr was ist die gut, bzw. was kann ich denn damit machen? > Nichts, denn wie der Name schon sagt, ist es eine selbstablaufende DEMO. > Du kannst sie unbesorgt l.9aschen. > PS: Ich bin noch Newbie und hab keine Ahnung, wie man auf Bibliotheken > zugreift / diese ausf.9fhrt. > Dazu empfehle ich Dir dringend die Lekt.9fre des Handbuchs, > f.9fr tiefer greifende Infos gibt es www.hpcalc.org. Aber wie gesagt, lies erst mal die Doku. > Falls bei Deinem 49G keine Doku dabei war, > gibt es diese auch auf www.hpcalc.org Raymond BTW: Next time I'll answer in english only ==== Local store has 38G on discount table for $16. Is there an easy method to use RPN on it? All the documentation I have read says only algebra mode. Or maybe I should just sell my HP11 (original package, enclosures and probably batteries) and buy a 49 and 48GX instead of messing around w/ the 38G. 8-) John ==== John Turner schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Local store has 38G on discount table for $16. Is there an easy method to use RPN on it? All the documentation I have read says only algebra mode. > and the docs are telling the truth. > I'd go for the HP-48, of course;-) Nevertheless, the user interface of the 38G is nice, so it could be worth a try. Raymond ==== Does anyone know how to convert a 48 rom card library for use in a 49g? I have some rom cards that I would like to use on the 49g. Is this even possible. I have searched this newsgroup and have not found much information that has been helpfull on doing this. I have tried ==== Johnny schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Does anyone know how to convert a 48 rom card library for use in a > 49g? I have some rom cards that I would like to use on the 49g. Is > this even possible. I have searched this newsgroup and have not found > much information that has been helpfull on doing this. I have tried > In general, ROM card contents (libraries) made for the 48 series, or more exactly their ROM piointers, would have to be 'translated' for use with the 49G. In many cases, it will be a lot of work, especially if you don't have the sources... AFAIK, there exists a conversion tool somewhere on www.hpcalc.org . And maybe someone submitted an alternative software package for use with the 49G. Just give it a try. Raymond ==== > I'm also indebted to David Haguenauer for his short > and precise description of the font-object structure. > As David already pointed out, a font's name must have > eigth characters like SYSTEM 8, otherwise some > oddities occur. Maybe JYA knows why. ??? First of all, I've described the font object many times, even before I www.hpcalc.org Any size should work The format is: If you go to my web site and download the metakernel v2.0 disk, you'll find a few fonts that definitely don't have a name made of 8 characters and they work perfectly ... I've just tried two different fonts with a name size different than 8, nothing special or strange happened. Could you please show me an example of the oddities ? --- remove the obvious ==== > The main problem is not the modification of chacarcters > but the renaming of, for instance a modified SYSTEM 8, > into another one, and still more, the number (< 128) of > the font, important for listing in the FONT-browser. > This can not efficiently be done in UsrRPL. That depends on what you mean by efficiently. My 100% User-RPL FONTX program does both of those tasks instantly, with a program size of 1K. It appeared at HPCALC.ORG on 1999/11/25: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3328 However it does nothing else, and cannot handle minifonts, so it is certainly obsoleted by your Fontman program. Good job, Wolfgang! -Joe- ==== > My 100% User-RPL FONTX program does both of those tasks instantly > It appeared at HPCALC.ORG on 1999/11/25: > http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3328 I just studied your smart font-parameter changer. Whereas you reduce the task to string processing, I did it with hexastring processing. It seems that your approach is more smart. Translated into SysRPL, your program would not need lib 256 at all! Hence, I'll eliminite lib 256 from Fontman completely. The problem with UsrRPL is that the right error treatment is very costly. You did it sporadically only. For instance, running your fontx with empty stack tells us DUP Error instead of fontx Error. But this may be a minor point. the object size (I've always difficulties with elementary arithmetic). The internal font name may even be empty -:) ==== I got the permission from Philippe Pamart (HPCooL) to use his minifont tools in Fontman. The library has been rewritten this night. It doesn't use slow lib 256 commands anymore. The command FPAR sets new font parameters instanteneously (due to fast string prosessing). I don't know whether JKH was the first who applied this idea in his font manager, at any rate he got credits in Fontman.txt. The dialog box FPAR accepts *any* string and *any* number as font name and ID, resp. The latter will automatically be recalulated modulo 256, the number of possible fonts. I would be happy if somebody tests this small library and reports here in the NG. Have fun, Wolfgang ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/fonttools/ PS. Since a font uses over 2 KB you may compress them (e.g. with the powerful BZ-tools from 0T49) and store in port 2. Fontman has a font browser looking also for compressed fonts (the builtin font browser doesn't). ==== > The dialog box FPAR accepts *any* string and *any* > number as font name and ID, resp. The latter will > automatically be recalulated modulo 256, the number > of possible fonts. I would be happy if somebody tests > this small library and reports here in the NG. Suggestion: recalculate the font ID modulo 245 instead of 256, in light of the following... -Joe- ----- flashback to before the dark times, before the Empire ----- 2: Italic 3: Underline 4: Inverse To change the font it will be: 11+ID_FONT So you won't have a conflict when calculating the number of carriage returns in the text (easier to program). As you can see, the font ID number can't be more than 244 otherwise a carry will occur and may conflict with the style coding. There is enough memory allocated in the system to handle 256 different fonts, but it's in fact not possible to use more than 244. In fact, any fonts with an ID > 244 will simply be ignored by the system when searching the memory for fonts.. So a font with an ID > 244 can be used as a system font (with the command ->FONT), but can't be selected using the font changing utilities. Hope this help ==== > Suggestion: recalculate the font ID modulo 245 instead of 256 is definitely obsolate for the font browser ChFnt of Fontman which looks for fonts in any port. There is absolutely no need for recalculation modulo 245. Recall some font with Font-> (from Fontman), run FPAR by giving it the number 255 and store it in 2:F255.F, say. Now run the font browser ChFnt. It contains the choose item 2:F255.F. Just press on this item. That loads font F255 with the right ID. This also works if 2:F255 is a self-decompressing font, easily made with OT49, for instance. If somebody uses dozens of fonts, these should be BZ-compressed anyway (compression rate is > 40%). This is no problem for Fontman, but a problem for the builtin font browser which, IMHO, is useful only for newbees. - Wolfgang ==== > My 100% User-RPL FONTX program does both of > those tasks instantly, with a program size of 1K. My mistake. It's 332 bytes. -Joe- ==== > Greetings! horror stories of faulty units I have read in this newsgroup. I was > thrilled to obtain an unwanted HP42S from a relative recently, but > horrified when I scratched off a small square of faceplate paint while > cleaning it - I repaired it with a small blob of brown enamel paint > as the unit is non-repairable by HP. I was also fortunate to find a The HP42S didn't suffer from the cost optimization as the other more recent HP calculators... It's a very well built calculator. Unfortunately, if you scratch the paint with your nail, the paint will go away, just like the HP28s. As far as I know, only calculators with a full, non-painted plastic cover (like the 28S, 19b) would not scratch. If you think HP lost its way with the HP42S, then I guess it means lost it nearly 20 years ago! > working HP39 (out of a few units, some having keys which no longer > responded) recently at low cost in a computer swapmeet, but was > severely disappointed when it turned out to have no RPN option. Yes, I saw some HP39 at a computer swapmeet for $45AUD. I was kind of disappointed to see a good machine like this sold at this price! Are you in Australia? May I ask what's the serial number of your machine? During my student days (mid 70's) and early professional life, HP was > synonymous with the highest quality in everything it manufactured. > HP's calculators, lab and industrial test and measurement equipment > were the Rolls Royces in their fields. The calculators - such as the > 41C - were nearly indestructable, and the ergonomics, manufacturing > quality and functionality were the best on earth! I find it incredible that a company with a heritage like this can > apparently alue it so little. As so many have said in this newsgroup, This is not only just a HP problem... When you look at the products available today, give me one that is not driven by profit and will not be replaced within 6 months with something newer, *better*, faster and so on. Nothing is built to last these days, look at cars today! It's the same for everything else. Even the music we have to listen to will not exist in a year. The world we live in now tells you should do, you can't think much on your own anymore. -- --- remove the obvious ==== > Nothing is built to last these days, look at cars today! > It's the same for everything else. Even the music we have to listen to > will not exist in a year. This is bogus. Cars last *ages* nowadays, they're much better than they were 20 years ago, because people understand how to stop things rusting and computer design has made them stiff and reduced water traps. Engines &c just go on for ever. Sure, cars probably don't last as long as chassis-based cars can do *if* they're properly maintained, which means `taken to bits and repainted every 10 years', but you probably don't want to get involved in that kind of maintenance, and you almost certainly can't afford the fuel they burn (oh well, in the US you probably can: I bet my 73 year old car gets more MPG than the average SUV, - it's probably safer too, and definitely more fun to drive). It's really not true that nothing is built to last now. Some things are, when they need to be. Mobile phones are a good example - some of them are crap obviously, but good ones need to be tough enough to be dropped regularly, sat on, rained on &c &c, and they are well-made as a result - I have a fairly old motorola and a new nokia both of which are just obviously well-made and will end up being thrown away because they're technologically obsolete (or, more likely, because it will cost more to buy new batteries than it will to buy a new phone with the way the phone market works in the UK) long before they wear out. CDs, while not as nice as records, last for ever (I have 19 year old CDs which play as well now as when they were new). HP calculators clearly *aren't* made the way they used to be, but that's because there's not enough sales in the calculator market to support well-made products at a price people will pay (and also because HP are a dying company, of course). --tim ==== Greetings! >horror stories of faulty units I have read in this newsgroup. I was > thrilled to obtain an unwanted HP42S from a relative recently, but > horrified when I scratched off a small square of faceplate paint while > cleaning it - I repaired it with a small blob of brown enamel paint > as the unit is non-repairable by HP. I was also fortunate to find a The HP42S didn't suffer from the cost optimization as the other more > recent HP calculators... > It's a very well built calculator. Unfortunately, if you scratch the paint > with your nail, the paint will go away, just like the HP28s. > As far as I know, only calculators with a full, non-painted plastic cover > (like the 28S, 19b) would not scratch. If you think HP lost its way with the HP42S, then I guess it means lost it > nearly 20 years ago! > Re-reading my paragraph, I may have given a wrong impression of my opinion of the HP42S. I think it is an excellent design ergonomically and functionally (albeit unexpandable), and very well constructed overall. I think in retrospect, though, the use of a painted faceplate (in the HP42S or any other models) has proven to be a less-than-optimum design choice as it appears to be the only real long-term weakness in an otherwise apparently bulletproof construction. I believe any cost saving over a non-painted plastic cover (as in the HP41) could not have been worth it. I think the HP42S is an excellent example of what I categorised as a Class (a) calculator in my earlier post. As I mentioned in its next-to-last paragraph, I also think the HP42S would have a ready market today if its manufacture were recommenced. > During my student days (mid 70's) and early professional life, HP was > synonymous with the highest quality in everything it manufactured. > HP's calculators, lab and industrial test and measurement equipment > were the Rolls Royces in their fields. The calculators - such as the > 41C - were nearly indestructable, and the ergonomics, manufacturing > quality and functionality were the best on earth! >I find it incredible that a company with a heritage like this can > apparently alue it so little. As so many have said in this newsgroup, This is not only just a HP problem... When you look at the products > available today, give me one that is not driven by profit and will not be > replaced within 6 months with something newer, *better*, faster and so on. > Nothing is built to last these days, look at cars today! > It's the same for everything else. Even the music we have to listen to will > not exist in a year. > The world we live in now tells you should do, you can't think much on your > own anymore. > Without having any particular understanding of the HP situation, I can understand in general today's hyped-up market pressures for the bottom-line on a publicly-owned company. However, I don't really see how throwing away the core assets responsible in the first place for the company's value can be rational even for bean-counter managers. I don't understand why when all the other lemmings can be seen plunging off the cliff into the sea, those still remaining atop the cliff decide the water must be nice! I am sure there is still a market for high-quality design and durability, even at premium prices, as this newsgroup itself attests. The problem seems to be that companies are not content with this - they must now reach the MASS market (at any costs) to be considered successful - the greed is good ethic rules. To get off my soapbox - and to avoid preaching to the converted - it's just utterly sad that the knowledge and design skills of people such as yourself are not being used any longer to advance this field. It's sort of like the cancellation of the Apollo program - the dream has died. Hopefully not forever, though. Rodney ==== Why is all this unreality happening? Because man is not free. The bankers have taken over with their worthless credit system of numbers in computers and worthless paper. Bankers have made man captive of their system, thus man is not free. Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying gold money, for it is man's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper money is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce. Paper money is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked: account overdrawn. When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming fodder for the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, who is destroying the world? You are. You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you are damning its life-blood - money. Throughout man's history gold was always seized by looters of one brand or another, whose names changed, but whose methods remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. So long as production is ruled by force and wealth is obtained by conquest, there is little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters and despised the producers. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of gold and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide - as I think he will. When gold ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips, and guns - or gold. Take your choice - there is no other - and your time is running out. -- Ayn Rand be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== First I would like to say that this is an incredible exhange of thought and emotion. Something that I think is not seen enough among the educated. Secondly, I am only a student of mathmatics, unlike many of you, whom are the professors, but I have a bunch of years looking at this very issue. The degredation of quality, in general, has come about in the last 35 years or so. The realization that the market can control the buyer has corrupted the capitolist system, and our calculators are just a tiny example of that. Cars, refrigerators, tvs, computers, and just about every appliance, hve been designed to become obsolete. Rebuilding is almost NEVER and option. But I don't blame the bankers, or the business owners, or any one else for this. I blame the consumer. The only reason the consumer is controlled by media hype and advertising, is because he buys the crap that is pushed on him. He has a choice, but he chooses not to exercise it. This is the problem. Regretably, education is the only solution to this problem. As others have indicated, it is hard to get the average citizen to want to be educated. Truly informed. Jeeez, if I could bottle that, every school on the planet would buy 100 gallons. Given the opportunity to make choices, become educated, and do well in this country, it is truly a shame. In response to Baboo, I guess I would say: We have allowed the bankers to take over, but they do not hold ultimate power, we can take it back. Always a pleaure to hear from you folks, Matt > Why is all this unreality happening? Because man is not free. The bankers have > taken over with their worthless credit system of numbers in computers and > worthless paper. Bankers have made man captive of their system, thus man is not > free. Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying gold money, for > it is man's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold > and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective > standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of > values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper > money is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at > those who are expected to produce. Paper money is a check drawn by legal > looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. > Watch for the day when it bounces, marked: account overdrawn. > > When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain > good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of > becoming fodder for the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production > is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, who is destroying the world? > You are. > > You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive > civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you are > damning its life-blood - money. Throughout man's history gold was always seized > by looters of one brand or another, whose names changed, but whose methods > remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, > demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. So long as production is ruled by force > and wealth is obtained by conquest, there is little to conquer. Yet through all > the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters and > despised the producers. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference > between the power of gold and the power of the whip, ought to learn the > difference on his own hide - as I think he will. > > When gold ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men > become the tools of men. Blood, whips, and guns - or gold. Take your choice - > there is no other - and your time is running out. > -- Ayn Rand > > be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== Amongst the wearers of sackcloth and ashes because quality no longer sells and built-in obsolescence reigns... In the early 1960s, Ford and others openly admitted that they engineered their cars to last 100,000 miles (~160Mm in SI). Any parts that lasted beyond that were overdesigned and thus made cheaper. Today many cars are available with 100,000 mile guarantees and go that long before a major tuneup. Sorry, but that doesn't sound *worse* to me! My Explorer and Taurus have well over that milage each and are running - and look - good as new (my 1977 VW ran 286,000 miles before I sold it). And quality doesn't sell? Is that why Rolex (watches), Questar (telescopes), Mount Blanc (pens), and so many other examples are still around? Sorry, that doesn't wash either. Hewlett Packard (and the HP Way) were based on a rapidly growing market, paying their bills as they went (not borrowing) from their beginning through the '70s. Once they moved into the mass market (i.e. PCs and peripherals), the economics changed radically. Yes, they chose the path they've taken - and are embracing it more than ever to the detriment of the machines we discuss. But that's the company's management's choice, not international banking / gold standards / the ascendancy of marketing / aliens from Planet X / whatever. Sooner or later, a vendor will make a well-made calculator based on a current high-performance architecture and we'll see someone port an HP-48/49 equivalent to it. The software tools are there now. It will be interesting if we manage to be able to enjoy 'HP' calculators with *no* HP involvement... Jim Horn ==== > Amongst the wearers of sackcloth and ashes because quality no longer sells > and built-in obsolescence reigns... In the early 1960s, Ford and others openly admitted that they engineered > their cars to last 100,000 miles (~160Mm in SI). Any parts that lasted > beyond that were overdesigned and thus made cheaper. Today many cars are available with 100,000 mile guarantees and go that > long before a major tuneup. Sorry, but that doesn't sound *worse* to me! > My Explorer and Taurus have well over that milage each and are running - > and look - good as new (my 1977 VW ran 286,000 miles before I sold it). I think this car argument is flawed... I've seen plenty of 30+ years old cars built in the 60s, I'm yet to see any car of that age built in the 90s !!! ==== > I've seen plenty of 30+ years old cars built in the 60s, I'm yet to see any > car of that age built in the 90s !!! especially memorable! Jim (still laughing) ==== I'm taking this one to work tomorrow... Toby > I've seen plenty of 30+ years old cars built in the 60s, I'm yet to see any > car of that age built in the 90s !!! especially memorable! Jim (still laughing) > ==== > In the early 1960s, Ford and others openly admitted that they engineered > their cars to last 100,000 miles (~160Mm in SI). Any parts that lasted > beyond that were overdesigned and thus made cheaper. Agreed, but these were all easily rebuilt, and designed to be so. > Today many cars are available with 100,000 mile guarantees and go that > long before a major tuneup. Sorry, but that doesn't sound *worse* to me! > My Explorer and Taurus have well over that milage each and are running - > and look - good as new (my 1977 VW ran 286,000 miles before I sold it). I see your point, but I would question if you are the average guy. I too have a car (lincoln mark VII) which has run for over 238000 miles. My neighbor has had 5 cars of various makes over the same time period. Are we just taking better care of our cars? I dunno..... > And quality doesn't sell? Is that why Rolex (watches), Questar > (telescopes), Mount Blanc (pens), and so many other examples are still > around? Sorry, that doesn't wash either. Ohhh no. I'm net letting you by with these. I happen to own a Rolex, and the cost dictates that it is not the average guys watch. Based on my limited knowledge of the others, I would have to guess that they are also not general consumer items. I doubt that a large number of Ironman watches that will still be running in 30 years. I have no doubt that my rolex will work. > Hewlett Packard (and the HP Way) were based on a rapidly growing market, > paying their bills as they went (not borrowing) from their beginning > through the '70s. Once they moved into the mass market (i.e. PCs and > peripherals), the economics changed radically. Yes, they chose the path they've taken - and are embracing it more than > ever to the detriment of the machines we discuss. But that's the > company's management's choice, not international banking / gold standards > / the ascendancy of marketing / aliens from Planet X / whatever. Agreed the management makes the choice, but the consumer validates that decision, and by withholding money can cause further change hopefully in the direction the consumer wants. Regretably, I do not think we are the folks that HP is listening to, and we are probably a minority in any event. > Sooner or later, a vendor will make a well-made calculator based on a > current high-performance architecture and we'll see someone port an > HP-48/49 equivalent to it. The software tools are there now. It will be > interesting if we manage to be able to enjoy 'HP' calculators with *no* HP > involvement... Can't wait. Good to hear from you Mr. Horn, I love your stuff. Matt B. ==== > Good to hear from you Mr. Horn, I love your stuff. You're very welcome - but I suspect it's *Joe* Horn who posts much more (and more useful) items here. Someday I'll have to answer for giving my Jim (Younger than Uncle Henry, older than Joe) ==== > Amongst the wearers of sackcloth and ashes because quality no longer sells > and built-in obsolescence reigns... In the early 1960s, Ford and others openly admitted that they engineered > their cars to last 100,000 miles (~160Mm in SI). Any parts that lasted > beyond that were overdesigned and thus made cheaper. Today many cars are available with 100,000 mile guarantees and go that > long before a major tuneup. Sorry, but that doesn't sound *worse* to me! > My Explorer and Taurus have well over that milage each and are running - > and look - good as new (my 1977 VW ran 286,000 miles before I sold it). Yes, this is true, but I expect to still see 1977 VW kombis still rattling around in 2020, even though some parts may have to be replaced every now and then. As soon as some major electronic / computer failure occurs in 20 year old cars built after 2000, the cost of repairs (if indeed possible) will be more than the replacement value of the car. Cars are the most expensive consumer item for most people, and the Naders and co. fought major battles against manufacturers to ensure that technological advances were properly harnessed for the consumer's benefit. Consumer battles were fought according to the value and importance of the items being made obsolescent. Of course, there is also a truth that it's consumer's fault for buying cheap, trendy rubbish in the firstplace. This is the impact of fashion and advertising, via the media on the consumer. That's why college students like getting show-off bells and whistles calculators to maintain their peer status and self-esteem (as well as maybe cheat in exams). Another interesting point; Today's motor car is not fundamentally different in operation from cars assembled in the 1920s. Given the advances in technology since the 1920s is it not unrealistic to have expected something a bit more advanced and economical than what is available today, other than the superficial/comfort aspects of the car ? Look at batteries used in cars. What an evolutionary dinosaur ? > And quality doesn't sell? Is that why Rolex (watches), Questar > (telescopes), Mount Blanc (pens), and so many other examples are still > around? Sorry, that doesn't wash either. Yes, but these are smaller, relatively esoteric objects, where luckily, quality is still seen as the guiding principle, unlike our beloved calculator manufacturer ! Sooner or later, a vendor will make a well-made calculator based on a > current high-performance architecture and we'll see someone port an > HP-48/49 equivalent to it. The software tools are there now. It will be > interesting if we manage to be able to enjoy 'HP' calculators with *no* HP > involvement... I look forward to that day !!!! Anybody got a safe full of gold bars to start a new calculator company ? A *small pocket sized* machine, with a 128MB flash-card and internal ROM for OS etc.. (as per a digital camera), 4 line screen, two-way I/R, serial or USB port, external power supply (like the HP25) and rechargeable internal batteries. Strictly RPN to avoid clutter with the keyboard and to keep the keyboard small. Command set similar to the HP49. Leave the CAS out of it, as there's plenty of shareware that does this and TIs etc... and the HP39 has achieved this aim for the desired market. Will last for 20 years of constant use (like the 41) if looked after, repairable (with user instructions to replace components after the warranty has expired). ==== > Another interesting point; Today's motor car is not fundamentally > different in operation from cars assembled in the 1920s. Given the > advances in technology since the 1920s is it not unrealistic to have > expected something a bit more advanced and economical than what is > available today, other than the superficial/comfort aspects of the car Have you *driven* a car made in the 1920s? I have, and they are *not the same thing* as cars made now. No synchromesh, unreliable brakes, 32 greasing points which you are meant to grease every 500 miles, 60 miles an hour if you are lucky (and brave). Heating? Weatherproofing? Petrol gauge? > ? Look at batteries used in cars. What an evolutionary dinosaur ? Actually: what an amazing bit of design, it worked well in the 20s and still works well now. And modern batteries almost never die, too (when was the last time you had to jump-start a car?) --tim ==== > A *small pocket sized* machine, with a 128MB flash-card and internal > ROM for OS etc.. (as per a digital camera), 4 line screen, two-way > I/R, serial or USB port, external power supply (like the HP25) and > rechargeable internal batteries. Strictly RPN to avoid clutter with > the keyboard and to keep the keyboard small. Command set similar to > the HP49. Leave the CAS out of it, as there's plenty of shareware that > does this and TIs etc... and the HP39 has achieved this aim for the > desired market. Will last for 20 years of constant use (like the 41) > if looked after, repairable (with user instructions to replace > components after the warranty has expired). Don't you think that a 128MB flash-card would be a little too much with a calculator of this functionality? Unless it has enough processing power to run linux or nice software, this would be a little too much IMO. Maybe 2MB or even 10MB of space would be more than sufficient for me. However, if the calculator could read SmartMedia (or other types of common memory cards used in camera's, etc), that would be a nice option. Upgrading memory would be cheaper (compared to 48gx memory right now), and more would be available, like the 128MB chunks you mentioned. -- Al ==== Yes, it's true that inbuilt obsolescence is now much more widespread than perhaps at any other time history, and not just a new problem for HP. HP may have been fortunate to have a stay of execution in the early nineties while some of the more enlightened management with engineering backgrounds still had decision making powers. I'm only 34 and yet I have this increasing feeling that I'm old-fashioned and backward looking, yearning for robust and reliable handheld computing power, when PDAs and mobile technology are supposed to achieve almost anything, if you believe the marketing slogans. The world's economy seems to be driven by a need for hedonistic, non-cerebral satisfaction, and easy living, while at the same time concentrating wealth amongst a few. University lecturers bemoan the lack of imagination of undergraduates, many of want solutions in a box as part of their degree on a plate, hence the great popularity of HP48, 49's a cheating tool at colleges and unis. Many engineers, scientists and surveyors are now so busy with the beuraucracy of performance assessement, targets, QA etc.. that they do not have time to develop their own programs, to suit their needs. Fifteen years ago, nearly all surveyors I know (in Australia) were competent programmers of HP41 and 42s, now only a handful have even bothered programming the 48, even fewer, the 49. I might have to start making an Abacus, or etch some log tables onto a stone in my backyard because I can't build an Hp style calculator from scratch. What can we do to halt the decline ? > During my student days (mid 70's) and early professional life, HP was > synonymous with the highest quality in everything it manufactured. > HP's calculators, lab and industrial test and measurement equipment > were the Rolls Royces in their fields. The calculators - such as the > 41C - were nearly indestructable, and the ergonomics, manufacturing > quality and functionality were the best on earth! >I find it incredible that a company with a heritage like this can > apparently alue it so little. As so many have said in this newsgroup, This is not only just a HP problem... When you look at the products > available today, give me one that is not driven by profit and will not be > replaced within 6 months with something newer, *better*, faster and so on. > Nothing is built to last these days, look at cars today! > It's the same for everything else. Even the music we have to listen to will > not exist in a year. > The world we live in now tells you should do, you can't think much on your > own anymore. ==== yes, someone understands the matrix. >The world we live in now tells you should do, you can't think much on your >own anymore. be sure to understand http://www.anti-matrix.net ==== > During my student days (mid 70's) and early > professional life, HP was synonymous with the highest > quality in everything it manufactured. HP's calculators, > lab and industrial test and measurement equipment > were the Rolls Royces in their fields. The calculators - > such as the 41C - were nearly indestructable, and the > ergonomics, manufacturing quality and functionality > were the best on earth! I find it incredible that a company with a heritage like > this can apparently value it so little. It is amazing that HP should firstly, in the interest of > cost-cutting, deliberately reduce designed construction > quality standards, and secondly, -even worse - allow > actual production quality to fall to the extent that many > manufactured units do not even function (the ongoing > HP49 saga). This would be unacceptable even from a > lesser company. Well said, but I hate to break the news that HP *is* a lesser company. In so many ways. your sentiments. It is quoted here without permission: 1. HP/Compaq will continue its long slide to oblivion. It is amazing to read lately all the news stories that say how well Carly Fiorina has done at integrating the two companies when the merger is, in fact, a train wreck. Sales and market share are both down. Everything Walter Hewlett said would happen is happening. The key moment was a boardroom showdown in October between Fiorina and former Compaq CEO Michael Capellas, then the new president of HP. Capellas presented a plan to become more like Dell, building computers to order. Fiorina said it was best to stick with resellers. The board sided with Fiorina and Capellas left the company two weeks later. Smart guy. Given that half the PC retailers in America are under Chapter XI bankruptcy as that industry segment dies, Capellas was right, Fiorina was wrong, and HP is toast. This is a sad end for a company with such a fine engineering and management tradition. You can read the other 14 predictions at Chip Chapter website: www.chip.chicago.il.us/ -Joe- ==== > I find it incredible that a company with a heritage like this can > apparently alue it so little. As so many have said in this newsgroup, > HP's core calculator users were technical or professional people who > were proud that their calculators formed a trusted and reliable part > of their professional armoury, along with the other expensive and > quality technical tools and equipment they managed or utilised. (I > don't think I am over-romanticising in this.) Surely the goodwill of > this user group should have been worth a great deal to HP in its line > of business. That's because the decisions at HP used to be made by engineers -- with the top-level decisions being made by a couple of engineers named Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard. The attitude of the people who worked there was, Let's sell products that will make enough money to pay the bills, so we can keep inventing and playing with all this cool technology. There are still people there who feel that way, but they no longer make the important decisions. The management of the new HP cares only about selling whatever cheap junk will make the most money in the shortest time and keep the stock prices up. They've thrown out Walter Hewlett (the son of Bill Hewlett), the last board member with any integrity, and I think it's a scandal that they continue to operate under the Hewlett-Packard name when they've defiled everything for which the company and its founders stood. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== OK, this time NewOS can run on HP48G and I also fixed some bugs with HP48 keyboard. Maybe it is too big for HP48G. I could not try it since I don't have one here. And is it possible to configure emulator to have 32kb of RAM and act like HP48G? download: www.twincar.sk/download/NewOS_0741.zip I would appreciate any feedback. Demo X-Comment-To: Demo ==== > Maybe it is too big for HP48G. I could not try it since I don't have one > here. I noticed that several of the files can be compressed significantly. Maybe automatic tnt or bz compression would be useful for a 48G port. ==== Maybe it is too big for HP48G. I could not try it since I don't have one > here. I noticed that several of the files can be compressed significantly. > Maybe automatic tnt or bz compression would be useful for a 48G port. > Yes, I know about that. Next I probably am going to move variable out of the file. They cause the area in file full of zeros and interrupt handler can be made smaller. And you also do not have to store SYSTEM in HOME dir and you may just put it on stack and delete it. And the most important DOES IT WORK? Cause I haven't tried it since I don't have HP48G. Demo ==== > And the most important DOES IT WORK? Cause I haven't tried it since I > don't have HP48G. > How about using Emu48? Raymond ==== And the most important DOES IT WORK? Cause I haven't tried it since I > don't have HP48G. > How about using Emu48? > Raymond I am using it for ~4-5 years...But I could not emulate HP48G with 32kb of RAM. It emulates HP48GX with 128kb of RAM. Demo And PEOPLE HAS ANYONE TRIED THAT NewOS? DOES IT WORK? FEEEEEDDDDBBBBAAACCCKKK. ==== And the most important DOES IT WORK? Cause I haven't tried it since I > don't have HP48G. >How about using Emu48? > Raymond I am using it for ~4-5 years...But I could not emulate HP48G with 32kb > of RAM. It emulates HP48GX with 128kb of RAM. Demo And PEOPLE HAS ANYONE TRIED THAT NewOS? DOES IT WORK? > FEEEEEDDDDBBBBAAACCCKKK. > If you load an SX rom, it will limit you to 32kb. This is what I did (well, I used x48). I wasn't prepared to put in it my real 48SX because the backup would be long--it will erase port 1, I read. But I couldn't get it to work. Running the Code in 'loader48' with the 'system' Code on the stack simply warm-starts the calculator. The same thing happened on x48 with a GX rom too, though, so I may be doing something else wrong. Karl. ==== **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** I don't know what happened. I tried it & it worked. Do you have this version: http://www.twincar.sk/download/NewOS_0742.zip ? And what revision of rom do you have in 48GX ? I have L in emulator and my brother was able to run it 48G with R revision. Of course he used loader48G. Demo Karl Nelson p.92se v diskusn.92m pr.92spevku >And the most important DOES IT WORK? Cause I haven't tried it since I > don't have HP48G. >How about using Emu48? >Raymond >I am using it for ~4-5 years...But I could not emulate HP48G with 32kb > of RAM. It emulates HP48GX with 128kb of RAM. > Demo >And PEOPLE HAS ANYONE TRIED THAT NewOS? DOES IT WORK? > FEEEEEDDDDBBBBAAACCCKKK. If you load an SX rom, it will limit you to 32kb. This is what I did > (well, I used x48). I wasn't prepared to put in it my real 48SX > because the backup would be long--it will erase port 1, I read. But I > couldn't get it to work. Running the Code in 'loader48' with the > 'system' Code on the stack simply warm-starts the calculator. The > same thing happened on x48 with a GX rom too, though, so I may be > doing something else wrong. Karl. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ==== The DoCRC command this used correctly? If I have a program in SYSTEM RPL in the stack. I can calculate the CRC with this program? CODE GOSBVL PopASavptr % GET THE LIBRARY ADDRESS A+10 A % D0=A % C=0 A % C=DAT0 B % GET THE TITLE LEGTH ?C=0 B % CHECK NO TITLE GOYES SIN % C+C A % A+C A % A+2 A % *SIN % A+20 A % D0=A % POINT TO OFFSET TO CONFIG C=DAT0 A % ?C#0 B % CHECK NO CONFIG GOYES CONFIG % GOVLNG GPPushFLoop % *CONFIG % A+C A % GOSBVL GPPushA % PUSH ADDRESS OF CONFIG A=DAT1 A % D1=D1+5 % D=D+1 A % SAVE % C=0 W % D=C W % D=D+5 A % D0=A % *CUENTA % C=DAT0 A % LA 0312B % ?C=A A % GOYES SALE % D=D+1 A % D0+1 % GOTO CUENTA % *SALE % C=D A % A=C A % A.A IS THE SIZE OF THE OBJECT GOSBVL DoCRC % GOVLNG PUSH#ALOOP % ENDCODE % @ How do i use the command DoCRC in ML? is correct? ==== I'm running emu48ce on an HP/Compaq iPaq 5455. Right now I'm using the HP49G rom that came with the program. I'd like to use the latest beta rom - how do I do that? Do I use the calculator version or the emulator ==== Just that ==== Veli-Pekka Nousiainen: a great one in this forum. And a great 49borg R Lion escribi.97 en el mensaje > Just that > ==== > Just that > Is it Virtual private network? On HP48/49? :-) Demo ==== Is it like RPN? Alex > Just that > ==== > Is it like RPN? Alex LOL ==== Is it possible to emulate 32kb of ram for HP48G? Demo ==== Demo schrieb im Newsbeitrag Is it possible to emulate 32kb of ram for HP48G? > Yes, it is possible with Emu48. Therefore you must generate a HP48G state file with the MKE48 command line tool. An example how to do this is inside the MKE48.TXT file. ==== There is a way, but I cn't remember where I read about it. Sorry Demo escribi.97 en el mensaje Is it possible to emulate 32kb of ram for HP48G? Demo ==== Demo schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Is it possible to emulate 32kb of ram for HP48G? > Don't know if that works, but you could use Emu48 with an SX ROM image. This way you'll have 32K main memory. Raymond ==== I recently upgraded the Flash Rom from 1.10 to 1.19-5. I recently noticed now that when I enter functions into plot-function menu the functions are stored in var menu. Now, I must delete Y variables from the var menu to access other programs from the var menu. Is this a property of the upgrade or is this an option that I can turn off? I also noticed that the next consecutive number for a graph function will be given when I need to graph a function. I thought if I deleted the functions in the plot-function menu I would start Y1(X); however, now I start with the next number not deleted from the var menu. Does ==== Maybe I've been sleeping through the discussions but just what is NewOS? WigglePig ==== NewOS is a multitasking operating system currently capable of running at HP49/48GX/48G maybe also SX. Current version is available @ http://www.twincar.sk/download/NewOS_0742.zip there no web site yet. Make sure to read readme.txt before running! Enjoy Demo Maybe I've been sleeping through the discussions but just what is NewOS? > WigglePig ==== with games, programs, etc. http://www.geocities.com/gaak_2001/prgm/index.html Soon at www.hpcalc.org GaaK ==== I have an mint condition, UNUSED, out of the box HP49G and separate Connectivity Kit and all documentation along with the original packing FOR SALE. This may be a last chance thing as it is no longer available at HP. Will ship only to US. I purchased this because it was the only RPN calculator left besides the 12C but after reading the manual, I realized it would take too much of my time to become proficient at. You can respond here with information that will allow me to contact you directly. Barry Shaklan, M.D. ==== I've got a HP48G and I'm looking for RPL sources of programs (I don't have any cable to transfer libraries to my caculator and I don't have time to make one right now) that compute results about graphs. Especially an implementation of the Warshall algorithm for calculating the transitive enclosure of a graph using its matrix. Does anyone know a website where I can find that kind of stuff. I've already searched on hpcalc.org and other greate hp48 source repositories but I didn't find anything. rozwel ==== IÇve been using the hp49 for about 3 months now and IÇve learned a lot, but I have 2 questions at this time: 1. In a book about the hp48 I remember something about a multiple level solver or something like that. In my right-shift + num.slv gives a menu oportunity which name is MSLV. WhatÇs the use of that function? 2. I often get very big results or very small results in rpn mode, like 14328438284321.54 or 0.00000000000038, but how can I make that into scientific notation without having to go into calculator modes + number format + fix + scientific/engineering + all the way back again, when I want to calculate in standard notation... There must be an easier way, right?????? There has to be....... ItÇs not always easy and I think itÇs very annoying to count small digits in the display and get a result like 1,433E? I really appreciate any help! Martin J. ==== OOPS! Forgot to mention that before using MSOLVR, you have to run MINIT. It checks the validity of EQ and creates the control variable Mpar. The reason I missed the first time around is that I did a quick test of a multiple-eq program and it ran without MINIT. Of course, I'd forgotten that I'd used the same program recently and there was a valid Mpar in the dir. To make up for this blunder, I'll reveal an earth-shaking secret. You can use MSOLVR with a single equation, the advantage being that the labels turn dark when you put in a value, unlike the single solver (30 MENU). Just put two copies of the equation on the stack, make a list, and store it in EQ. Then do MINIT MSOLVR. Bill ==== IÇll do the same as you, because I also think that IÇll get to switch a lot between scientific and standard notation. Bill Markwick skrev i en meddelelse > OOPS! Forgot to mention that before using MSOLVR, you have to run > MINIT. It checks the validity of EQ and creates the control variable > Mpar. The reason I missed the first time around is that I did a quick > test of a multiple-eq program and it ran without MINIT. Of course, > I'd forgotten that I'd used the same program recently and there was a > valid Mpar in the dir. To make up for this blunder, I'll reveal an earth-shaking secret. You > can use MSOLVR with a single equation, the advantage being that the > labels turn dark when you put in a value, unlike the single solver (30 > MENU). Just put two copies of the equation on the stack, make a list, > and store it in EQ. Then do MINIT MSOLVR. I knew it! I downloaded a program equation library and this program also makes use of the MSOLVR (I think) and itÇs a very cool function - you just (without knowing it) answered the question I had in my mind, that I wanted to try to figure out myself, but luckily you revealed the secret... Thanx, again. Martin J. ==== > 1. In a book about the hp48 I remember something about a multiple level > solver or something like that. In my right-shift + num.slv gives a menu > oportunity which name is MSLV. WhatÇs the use of that function? If you look in CAT, it's called a multi-variate solver and there's a brief Help screen (at least with my version). The MSOLVR command is the multi-eq solver - it expects to find a list of equations in the variable EQ and will write the variables into a white softkey menu. Enter the known values, pressing the associated key afterwards. To solve for an unknown, press Leftshift and then the key for the unknown. > 2. I often get very big results or very small results in rpn mode, like > 14328438284321.54 or 0.00000000000038, but how can I make that into > scientific notation without having to go into calculator modes + number This may only apply to later ROM upgrades, but if you press and hold the Leftshift key and then the Mode key, you get the HP48-style softkey menu. FMT gives you the display modes. What I do: since I go programs (<< 4 FIX >, for instance) and stored them in the Home dir with the naames F1, F2, etc. You could also assign them to custom keys. (I work with HMS time a lot, so I have 4 Fix and STD assigned to keys.) BTW, if you haven't upgraded to v1.19-6, it's well worth it. Bill ==== > 1. In a book about the hp48 I remember something about a multiple level > solver or something like that. In my right-shift + num.slv gives a menu > oportunity which name is MSLV. WhatÇs the use of that function? This is the Multiple Equation solver. It can solve pretty much any number of equation with the same or less number of unknown > 2. I often get very big results or very small results in rpn mode, like > 14328438284321.54 or 0.00000000000038, but how can I make that into > scientific notation without having to go into calculator modes + number > format + fix + scientific/engineering + all the way back again, when I > want to calculate in standard notation... > There must be an easier way, right?????? > There has to be....... > ItÇs not always easy and I think itÇs very annoying to count small digits in > the display and get a result like 1,433E? you can use the STD or FIX or ENG command (FIX and ENG take the number of displayed digit as arguement) ==== ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? ??????????????????????[CapitalYAcute]???? ==== > want to calculate in standard notation... > There must be an easier way, right?????? > There has to be....... > ItÇs not always easy and I think itÇs very annoying to count small > digits > in > the display and get a result like 1,433E? > you can use the STD or FIX or ENG command (FIX and ENG take the number of > displayed digit as arguement) Don't forget the SCI command for scientific notation. :) But if I have a number like 0.00000000004 in standard notation and I donÇt want to count all the small numbers/decimals and enter SCI + ENG, then the calculator deletes the number (0.00000000004) and then I should problem... Here the calc does the right thing without dropping the number on the stack. So what should I do??? Martin J. ==== MJ> But if I have a number like 0.00000000004 in standard notation and I donÇt MJ> want to count all the small numbers/decimals and enter SCI + ENG, then MJ> the calculator deletes the number (0.00000000004) and then I should MJ> problem... Here the calc does the right thing without dropping the number MJ> on the stack. MJ> So what should I do??? Read The manual. The SCI command takes an argument, the number of decimals you want to have displayed. Use 4 SCI or something like this. - Carsten ==== Is the HP 49G as crash prone as the TI-89? ==== only if you're a juggler for a living........ > Is the HP 49G as crash prone as the TI-89? ==== **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** I'm looking for source code for BZ uncompress tool, because I want to compress NewOS kernel and uncompress it directly into Port 1. Demo -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ==== Is there any way to easily convert a 48 XLIB's rom adresses to the 49's rom adresses? i.e. a conversion program... ==== Talked the store manager into selling me 3 of the HP38s for a discount of the $16. Still has 3 or 4 left so in a month I might have another one or two for $5. I tore one apart as I was curious about the HP keyboard. Pretty simple once you have it apart. Even the circuits for the main board look fairly straight forward. Know I have parts now worth more than I paid for at least one of the calculators and probably all three. The first (now parts) and 2nd calculators have (or had) dismal displays unless you have the calculator at just the right angle w/ the right light source. The menu system (aplets) is interesting and I can see the advantage to it in certain instances. I don't know that it is any easier to learn than an HP48 though. Maybe once I play with it someone more it will seem 'better'. The different registers to hold variables of different types is nice and reminds me of the HP11 except the 38G has a better access to the variables. The 38G processing seems quicker than the 48G, and there are several built in functions that are handy for one of my classes this semester. Maybe I can hack the rom eventually and have rpn ... John ==== There is probably enough expertise on this newsgroup to design a calculator that is better than is currently available. After destructing the HP38G yesterday, hardware is fairly straight forward especially if you do most of the features in the firmware/software. The starting point is to figure out the requirements and if it is designed should it be a home built kit or just have a parts list available. ==== > I often get very big results or very small results, > like 8438284321.54 or .000000000038, but how can I > make that into scientific notation without having to > [manually change display modes back and forth all the time]? > I'd like some kind of utility that you could personalise > that would automaticaly set the display type depending on > the size of the number. Say <10^5 use 4 FIX else 4 ENG etc. > Also like to have option for 1000's separator in STD mode. See this example: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D7495E9.848BF8E8%40miu.edu Related example (to show leading zeros in binary values): http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8rhhqe%24mri%241%40nnrp1.deja.com Thousands separators, showing all digits, but no trailing zeros: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6l338g%24q78%241%40news.iastate.edu For displaying exact integers with separators on HP49, see: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3AF38F47.4C05013D%40miu.edu Here's the program from the first link above, augmented to display, in the status area at the top of the screen, both SCI mode and FIX mode (showing commas and all significant digits) for any level-1 number, regardless of the current (unaffected) stack display mode; note that only significant digits are shown (no trailing zeros) in the generated status display: %%HP: T(3)F(.); @ Include for Kermit download to calculator. @ Comments are ignored when downloaded or pasted. << 2. ->HEADER @ set status area height, omit for HP48 DROP DEPTH { RCLF OVER DUP TYPE 28. == { I->R } IFT @ optional for HP49 exact integers DUP TYPE 10. == { B->R } IFT @ optional for user binary integers DUP TYPE NOT { DUP MANT STD ->STR SIZE 2. - SCI DUP 1. DISP 2. DISP 1. FREEZE DUP STD ->STR E POS NOT { DUP FP ABS DUP { ->STR } IFT @ handle 0 [48] or 0. [49] SIZE 1. - DUP FIX 11. > { STD } IFT @ simulate 12 FIX DUP a%>$, SYSEVAL 2. DISP @ see important *NOTE* below } IFT } IFT DROP STOF } IFT > 'GbENTER' STO @ 'BetaENTER' [alpha right-shift B] -62. SF -63. SF @ set User mode and Custom Enter mode @ End of download Important *NOTE* Replace the SYSEVAL string argument a%>$, (entry point name) with the *hexadecimal* address for your calculator model: For 49 only: #25F0Fh, For 48 only: #162ACh A package is available to do this automatically, provided that you have the extable library in your 49, or the Jazz library [full version] in your 48: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/programming/misc/systrans.zip http://groups.google.com/groups?ic=1&selm=8618et%24p7v%241%40nnrp1.deja.com CAUTION: Back up your memory *before*installing* the above program, because if the program is entered incorrectly, a memory wipe-out could occur! . ==== > Is there any way to easily convert a 48 XLIB's rom addresses > to the 49's rom addresses? i.e. a conversion program... There are several ways, depending on what you really want to do, e.g. o Convert UserRPL (and some SysRPL) binary files [hpconvert]. o Convert decompiled (or decompilable) source [just decompile and recompile, UserRPL or SysRPL] What do you mean by a 48 XLIB -- do you mean an entire library? [sometimes you can split and convert each part]; do you have some specific, published program or library in mind? Generally you need to look on a case-by-case basis, and more detail is necessary to begin. . ==== And I forgot to list this other possibility: o Convert UserRPL containing SYSEVALs and LIBEVALs? A reference to an automatic converter for supported SYSEVAL addresses has just been posted in another thread. ==== > Is there any way to easily convert a 48 XLIB's rom adresses to the 49's > rom adresses? i.e. a conversion program... I guess you mean unnamed rompointers if talking on XLIB rom addresses. There isn't such a program. The problem is, that most internal libs of the 48 have been reorganized on the 49. This is a main problem in porting from the 48 to the 49. SysRompointers are (hopefully) stable from ROM 19-6 on. Theoretically, there is such a procedure since both, the 48 and the 49 have finitely many libs only. But I doubt that anybody would start the adventure of a translation. For some (not all) addresses in the ordinary sense this is not a big deal. Even after 3 years I didn't find some of the rompointers listed in the 48-FAQ (hacked a long time ago by JKH) on the HP49. And don't expect any information whether they still exist or not. ==== >Anyway, I don't think I'll be keeping Derive. It is nice in some >ways, quite easy to use and all, but it feels like a TI... if you >know what I mean. The Problem is, that DERIVE _is_ a TI, since TI has taken over the manufacturer of DERIVE, SoftWarehouse Hawaii, some years ago. Volker ==== > Then i tried this calculation. 9^(9^9), but i get an integer overflow. 9^(9^9) would have over 369 million decimal digits. Where do you think your HP 49G will find the memory required to store and display that? ==== > I'm using font size 8 to everything, because I think the display is > pretty poor and in bad ligthning it's not easy to read small numbers and > formulas on a bad display. I've also tried smaller fonts, but didn't > like it. i really wonder why in '99 they didn't use a better display than the one HP49 is shipped with. if it had more pixels the readability would improve considerably (and minifont is really PITA). hell, psion in '95 had display with 640x240 pixels :/ i know it's not that easy - the cpu must be powerful enough to work with bigger displays but still ... -- fuf ==== > I'm using font size 8 to everything, because I think the display is > pretty poor and in bad ligthning That's true, but there are 2 really good readable fonts of size 7 on hpcalc.org, Raymond's Rayfont and my LFont. Letters are similar. The advantage of LFONT is that you've got a lot of symbols in it used in logic and math. The first 32 ASCII symbols of LFONT are mainly upper and lower index number, extremely useful. I applied LFONT essentially to study the general font structure and to generate my Fontman library. I'm working nearly always with LFONT, in program development, but also for everyday tasks. A font of size 7 has the great advantage of displaying six stack levels :-) - Wolfgang ==== I am writing my first SYSRPL program. It calls the grob SS from memory and then copies another grob (MRK) onto that one. But it seems that when I call it to the stack with ID SS that the original gets replaced by the new formed grob. So I have to RCL it from memory somehow. Here is my problem. If I do ID SS @ then I get external results in the stack, and I have no idea whether I can work with that further on. Like displaying the grob. I'd like to see the grob, not 'External'. If I put mulitple @'s in the program then my calc crashes and clears my memory. What is the syntax to use for the @ command? Or SAFE@? ==== you need to copy the GROB to TEMPOB first. HTH Andreas > I am writing my first SYSRPL program. It calls the grob SS from memory > and then copies another grob (MRK) onto that one. But it seems that when I call it to the stack with ID SS that the > original gets replaced by the new formed grob. So I have to RCL it from memory somehow. Here is my problem. If I do > ID SS > @ > then I get external results in the stack, and I have no idea whether I > can work with that further on. Like displaying the grob. I'd like to > see the grob, not 'External'. If I put mulitple @'s in the program then my calc crashes and clears > my memory. What is the syntax to use for the @ command? Or SAFE@? ==== > >I have both of Urroz's books, in electronic format only, and have printed >them myself. Over the two volumes there is something like 700+ pages. >do you have Kazaa?? >Goddamnit! You should be supporting Urroz for doing a good job! >I'm a poor student, but I've just bought the book online, because I've > now heard too many good things about his books and I want to support the > man for doing a good job. >If you're interested in the book, then you should go buy it. That's my > opinion. >ps: I can give you a feedback, when I'm finished with volume 1, if you > want it. >Martin J. > It was a joke (just in case). Send me the feedback on the book asap > please, gonna get the hard copy if its good. > [AC] I'll accept it as a joke.. As for feedback: I bought the hardcopy of the two books back when I was taking College Algebra. I also received them in PDF format. I used the books extensively through Calc 2. Calc 3 is next term!!! and I plan on using them also. There is an errata file for the books out there, unfortunatly I can't remember where. You might do a google search. I figure (Hehehe) that between the Urroz books and Nick K (and the rest of this NG). I made it through the 5 maths classes with flying colors. I would highly recomend you getting the two books AND the trig marathon and the series marathon by Nick K. ==== I am the proud owner of a new hp49g. I indulged into the resources available on the net since the manuals didn't get me starting off that good. I noticed that there was some problems with serial ports on the first batches of the hp49g. What has the serial number on the back of the calculator have to be in order for it not to have a defective serial port? Further more, what is the best route to follow to get to grips with this machine? Which of the documents available will be best to start with, or is it a matter of trail and error towards one's own interests. I'm a civil engineering student. great assistance for the newcomer. Malan ==== I have an HP48GX and I have cracked the glass/plastic cover of the screen. Everything still works, but I am not sure that it will continue to do so. I saw a 48G+ at a nearby Staples at a price less than the we'll take a look at it cost at HP. Does anyone know if it is possible to swap screens? Is it a soldering iron + steady hands job or a mini-plug swap-in? (Assuming I can get the wee sleekit beastie open, without major damage....) Geoff ==== > We are all sorry for this tragedy, but the space program must continue. Agree, though the responsibles should add a little more weight to technology issues and be more careful in future. Many of the participating engineers have repeatedly warned that there are problems, but the bean-counters had a different opinion. (Again...) And the astronauts and their families pay the bill. > If they > had given up at the first shipwrecks 500 years ago, the New World would still > be there waiting to be discovered. Yes, and if we don't manage to somehow go out to the stars, then... it doesn't look very well for our fate. Let's remember those astronauts for ever, are they with Gus now? Nick. ==== > Reading the local paper, regarding yesterday's tragedy, I saw a photograph > of the crew, where Mr Anderson was with a calculator's picture on his chest > (shirt). Did anyone else notice the familiar image published on his shirt ? > (meaning it looks pretty much like the 48GX, doesn't it) Seeing the photos it looks more like an actual calculator floating in front, not a picture on a shirt. -Samuel ==== > Seeing the photos it looks more like an actual calculator > floating in front, not a picture on a shirt. In the old days, space shuttle astronauts used to have an HP PPC attached to their uniform with Velcro. I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's a real HP 48GX (with a keyboard overlay) stuck on his suit. But that's just a guess. -Joe- ==== > 3) If I press the arrows with blue shift the cursor moves to infinite > position, the cursor psition is not shown and I can not see a x or y > position. > I cannot move back the cursor, is that a bug by HP49G, or make I a > mistake? No Hans, you do no mistake. This activates scroll mode for the plot. You see, if the PICT is bigger than 131x64 pixels, then in this mode you can scroll around the picture. The screen is then sort of a window that lets you look at a 131x64 portion of the PICT. You can understand better what this mode does if you: Enter #262d #128d PDIM Setup some function to plot and plot parameters. Draw the plot and while in the plotting environment, press [blue-shift] and then scroll around the plot using the arrow keys. Happy scrolling, Nick. ==== > R->B appears to operate as (sorry for the pseudocode!) > << if [real?] {ceil; binary; } Real arguments are rounded to an integer; this is sometimes like FLOOR, other times like CEIL. . ==== Our lovely HP49G will give you all roots (including complex ones) when it is in complex mode. In real mode it will give you only real ones. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT BEING IN EXACT OR APPROXIMATE MODE! !Demeter! ==== > Biggest problem I'm facing is that once I've input the program it loses all > formatting - and once it gets more than a few dozen lines long it becomes > quite a jumble to sort through. Is there an easy answer to this issue? - if > I could maintain the original formatting (or even have a few gaps to > visually seperate sections of code) it would make things a lot easier. A way to keep the formatting of your programs is to start each new program within a string . Once you finish typing, save it as a string. If you want to execute it, you must get rid of the quotes, so just go to the [LSHIFT] [PRG] menu, [TYPE] and hit OBJ->. Even better to save your self from typing assign the OBJ-> operation to a key. The program will be left on the stack for you to execute. For example, to assign the key O to OBJ-> type: << OBJ-> 43.1 ASN and that will do the assignment. Next to illustrate the string method, type for example: << 1 4 FOR X X NEXT > with spaces and new lines inside the << > as you see fit. Save it as a string under, say, 'Atest' STO and then bring it on the stack by pressing the menu key that corresponds to that name. Press now [LSHIFT] [USER] O and there you have the program on the stack. Type [RSHIFT] [EVAL] and it runs producing the trivial count. As far as the local variables question look it up in the manual (PDF) :-) !Demeter! ==== How can I evaluate a LOG in base 2 (something like 2 LOG X), if possible? ==== > How can I evaluate a LOG in base 2 (something like 2 LOG X), if possible? > the formula is LN(x) / LN(base) -- fuf ==== **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com **** Go back to school. > How can I evaluate a LOG in base 2 (something like 2 LOG X), if possible? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ==== > In most serious forums pseudonyms are a no-no. [...] > I for myself will think it over to even answer to no-names/pseudo-names... I agree with you but, in my opinion, there are a few cases where using a pseudonym is justified and appropriate. Minors: I think they should not use their real name on Internet, so as to keep them away from psychos and also because all the nonsense they might say now should not mark them for life. Celebrities: Can you imagine Kubrick or Hawking posting to this newsgroup with their real names? They would just want an answer to a specific question, not a thread on their life and work! HPCC #1046 ==== Here is a picture where you can see how Lt. Michael P. Anderson use your HP48 in the Columbia for science activities. http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030210/sctone.html R.I.P to this heroes. Gregorio Mu.96oz ==== start the serialnumber with CN? Jochen ==== knowing the pins are for managing the LCD iÇve found the following (this is estracted from a doc about the EPSON SED 1353, for the MC68K) **Voltage maximun absolute ratings: This applies for both input and output: -0.3V to Vcc + 0.3V, in all the devices iÇve read about, and all of them work with TTL logic (Vcc = 5). And also all of them advice you that any overshoot on an input could damage the pin (i imagine they refer to the logic behind) or even the LCD Pin functions: XSLC: output: Shift clock of display data. At the falling edge of this signal data is shifted to X driver on the LCD. LP: output: Latch clock of display data. At the falling edge of this signal line data on the LCD is latched and used for turning on de LCD Y driver. LD0-LD1: outputs: Display data in the dual panel mode (???) GND: ground :) The VCO pin is a little confusing, in the 1353 and a few disp iÇve also read about (they were quite advanced devices), there are 2 oscilator pins, one input and one output, depending on whether you want to use an external osc or not; so i donÇt know if the calcÇs one is an input or an output. Anyone knows the part number/model of the calcÇs LCD? thank you for your previous responses ==== minutes after my last post i found something even better :) of course the knowledge was at hpcalc.org as in one of the photos showing an opened calculator you can see the part name of the LCD controllers (it uses 2 so i suppose one is for half the screen and the other one for the other half). They are SED 1181Fla from EPSON so i wasn't too far from the truth but the voltage ratings are completely different. I found the datasheet in google without problems thank you ==== With less than a month of use, several of my HP49 key markings are wearing off! It appears that these keys are just painted? If so, this is very poor quality on part of HP. If I were to design such an thing in my job I would be fired. HP is no producing the HP49 so what is the recourse here? I am extremely disappointed with this. For years my pride and joy was an HP41CV, I thought the HP49 would be a first class machine, obviously not when put to test. Caesar Garcia ==== Seen: > Another interesting point; Today's motor car is not fundamentally > different in operation from cars assembled in the 1920s. Given the > advances in technology since the 1920s is it not unrealistic to have > expected something a bit more advanced and economical than what is > available today, other than superficial/comfort aspects. Preston Tucker made dramatic advances in his 1940's automobiles, and was staunchly attacked and resisted by the rest of the industry, which is not uncommon when entrenched institutions are threatened. This is humorously illustrated in the classic fictional film The Man in the White Suit (wherein an inventor perfects a cloth which never gets dirty and never wears out, only to find himself attacked by industrial titans and labor alike), it is experienced to some extent as a response to our university's educational programs, which produce extraordinary accomplishments and effects. It is the way of some governments, some of which resist change as much as does their #1 current target for attack, rising blindly to protect institutions which don't work. Build a better mousetrap, and someone will burn down your factory (when collective consciousness is at a low ebb in society). Links to information about Tucker and his automobiles: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3E1506C8.C7A0CCBF%40miu.edu -[]- ==== Asked: > I'm trying to use kermit to transfer files > from my pc to the hp48g and it can't connect to my calculator What specific program is actually running on the PC? We might suggest different ways to proceed, depending on which software you are using. Basically, you want that program to select the working 9-pin serial port (usually COM1 or COM2, not a USB port) into which your cable will be plugged, and you'll want to select 9600 baud, no parity, 8 data bits, and 1 stop bit (a/k/a 9600-N-8-1) > is there a way to test the serial cable? Unplug cable from PC. Connect pinholes 2 & 3 of the PC end of cable to each other (using wire or a bent paper clip); then plug calc end into calc. Then on the calc press ON and D at the same time, release; this should show a split screen on your 48G (instructions below match 48G, use the on-screen menus for 49G) Press key A; this should show a CPU speed (SPD). Press key H; this tests for a loopback on the serial port, which should respond with OK if the port and cable are ok (with pins 2 & 3 connected to each other at PC end of cable). A numeric result (e.g. U_LB 20000) indicates a failure to detect the data sent from the calc back to the calc, passing all the way through the cable enroute. On the calc, press ON and C at same time to exit hardware testing (a warmstart then clears the stack and should return to MTH menu). Other things could also need adjustment on HP48: Press left-shift I/O[1] then IOPAR[B] menu key; another way is to type 106 [alpha] MENU then press ENTER. If there is a small square in the IR menu key [A] then press it once to remove the square; the top line of the display should also confirm IR/Wire: wire (otherwise the calc is trying to use its infrared LED, rather than its cable). The most common (and calc's fastest) baud rate is 9600; if it isn't, type 9600 then press baud[C] menu key. Parity should be none 0; otherwise type 0 then press parity[D} menu key. cksum should be set to 3. translate should be set to 3. The ascii setting determines whether files are transferred as the kind of display text you normally see on the calc screen or when editing, or else as binary internal-format files which only the calculator can understand, not editable on the computer. Calc files stored on the computer usually have a short header which automatically tells the calc anyway whether the file is ascii or binary, so when the calc is receiving files, it often automatically recognizes the format by itself, but when sending files, you should first set ascii/binary the way you want it, before sending files from the calc. Any calculator object can be sent as a binary file; special objects and programs originally downloaded in binary may not be capable of displaying in ascii (only objects which you can edit in the calc can be sent properly as readable ascii text). Good luck! . ==== I tried out the long string viewer Wolfgang Rautenberg made called VLS. It is a neat little program; it accepts a string as an argument and then displays it in the text viewer, but 'word wraps' the text. This is good for proggie. I found that I had to convert my numbers to strings before I could view them. The easiest way I found was to press the key, then +. This converts to a string. Is there an easier way to do this? Also, how do you convert from a string back to a number easily? ==== > I found that I had to convert my numbers to strings before I could view > them. The easiest way I found was to press the key, then +. This > converts to a string. Is there an easier way to do this? Well, not really easier, but you can also use ->STR, which converts anything to a string. >Also, how do you convert from a string back to a number easily? You can use OBJ-> to do that. ==== > I'll repeat here a small challenge... We start with > f(0)=f(1)=1 and > the recursion formula > (1) f(n+2)= f(n) + i*f(n+1) (i = sqrt(-1)). > This defines a complex-valued sequence but (1) is very > similar to Fibonacci's formula for his sequence F from his > Liber Abacci (Pisa 1202) which starts with F(1)=1, F(2)=2, > hence the setting f(0)=f(1)=1. If the limes of the sequence > [f(n+1)/f(n)] exist in the complex plane then it is a root > of the equation > (2) x^2 - i*x -1 = 0. > As is easily shown, the roots of (2) are the complex > numbers (sqrt(3)-i)/2 and (sqrt(3)+i)/2. My question is: > Does lim [f(n+1)/f(n)] really exist and which of the two > roots of (2) is then the limes? The eigenvalues of [[i 1][1 0]], w1 and w2, are primitive > 12th roots of 1, so w1^n=w2^n = 1 iff n ==0 mod 12. > For any values of f(0) and f(1), there are suitable values > of a and b such that f(n) = a*w1^n + b*w2^n. > Then f(n + 12*k) = f(n) for all non-negative integers n and > k, and the values of f(n) are periodic with period 12. > Since f(n) is not constant unless a = b = 0, there can be no > limiting value to f(n+1)/f(n), as the ratio will be periodic > too. The limit of the ratio does not exist. > > That's altogether correct, hence, you are the winner. The result > could have been obtained even with elementary math, I mention this only > for the rest of the people :-) The sequence f when drawn in a clock face, f(1)=1 at 12 o'clock, > f(1)= 1 at 1 o'lock etc looks as follows: > > * > * 1 * > 1-i 1 > * * > -i 1+i * -i * i > * -i-i * i > > * -1 * -1+i > * -1 > > And this is the legend: When God had created Heaven and Earth and > Mankind he took a little rest and looked at the sequence defined > by f(n+2) = f(n) + i*f(n+1). Notwithstanding, God saw at once the > above circle. And he said > > Ok, this may be the clock face for my creatures > > There is a very small missing detail in Virgil's argument. It's > correct that the sequence [f(n+1)/f(n)] is periodic as well, but > the period may perhaps be 1. This is not so as is seen by the > circle. Actually, the period is 3. AND THIS HOLDS TRUE FOR ANY > sequence f starting with any two reals a,b distinct from 0 and > obeying (1) above. Hence, my next challenge: Write a shortest possible UsrRPL program which yields the > 3 different terms of the sequence [f(n+1/f(n)] where f is > defined above with initial values a,b <> 0. > > - Wolfgang I can do it with f(0) and f(1) as input on the stack, in levels 2 and 1 respectively, and the 3 ratios as output in a UsrRL program of 35.0 bytes, with checksum of # 39588d, though the last 2 ratios may appear in unfamiliar forms. ==== << / DUP DO OVER INV i + SWAP > UNTIL DUP2 == END DROP2 > >42.5 bytes , checksum # 6C49h (48) . > Boy is that unnecessarily complicated. ;) Here's a simplified version : << / 1 2 START DUP INV i + NEXT > 32.5 bytes, checksum # AF23h (48) . I guess I broke the custom of not sharing one's code until the end, but it's too late to stop now. ;) Sorry if I spoiled the fun for anybody. ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== > << / DUP DO OVER INV i + SWAP > UNTIL DUP2 == END DROP2 > Boy is that unnecessarily complicated. ;) > Here's a simplified version : > << / 1 2 START DUP INV i + NEXT > I guess I broke the custom of not sharing one's code until the end, > but it's too late to stop now. ;) Sorry if I spoiled the fun for > anybody. ;) You didn't, fun will be continue :-) that he may win the first price (time counts!), the disadvantage that his published solution may be used by others for improving his own. One rule should be observed, however: For a program like your's also the correctness should at least be explained. I don't comment on the correctness of your program at this moment, that's your task! The good thing is that you get a second chance by this :-) his elementary solution of the first question. He transformed the whole problem in real arithmetic. But usually, a problem in complex arithmetic is more easily solvable therein, and indeed, I have an elementary proof of cyclicity of the sequence f of a few lines. Also other people should still try to beat Jonathan (whenever his solution is correct), in particular Nick. - Wolfgang PS. I feel a bit sorry for Nick. Since his disaster in trying to solve the Preference Ordering challenge he never again participated in any competition, even not the relatively easy one by JKH. Why it is so that even in UsrRPL competitions usually the gurus win and not a UsrRPL programmer? Guess why ... ==== > (clearly, the Pope and many other people looked at these > new procedures in arabic digits as a new trick of the devil :-) Religious bigotry has no place on this forum... or anywhere else, for that matter... except universities, where it is de rigueur. -Joe- ==== > Religious bigotry has no place on this forum... or anywhere else, > for that matter... except universities, where it is de rigueur. The above was written in a moment of extreme irritation. I apologize to Wolfgang and anybody else who it may have offended. Say whatever you think ought to be said, and don't let me or anybody else stop you. Ok, back to programming... -jkh- ==== I'll repeat here a small challenge... We start with > f(0)=f(1)=1 and > the recursion formula > (1) f(n+2)= f(n) + i*f(n+1) (i = sqrt(-1)). > This defines a complex-valued sequence but (1) is very > similar to Fibonacci's formula for his sequence F from his > Liber Abacci (Pisa 1202) which starts with F(1)=1, F(2)=2, > hence the setting f(0)=f(1)=1. If the limes of the sequence > [f(n+1)/f(n)] exist in the complex plane then it is a root > of the equation > (2) x^2 - i*x -1 = 0. > As is easily shown, the roots of (2) are the complex > numbers (sqrt(3)-i)/2 and (sqrt(3)+i)/2. My question is: > Does lim [f(n+1)/f(n)] really exist and which of the two > roots of (2) is then the limes? The eigenvalues of [[i 1][1 0]], w1 and w2, are primitive > 12th roots of 1, so w1^n=w2^n = 1 iff n ==0 mod 12. > For any values of f(0) and f(1), there are suitable values > of a and b such that f(n) = a*w1^n + b*w2^n. > Then f(n + 12*k) = f(n) for all non-negative integers n and > k, and the values of f(n) are periodic with period 12. > Since f(n) is not constant unless a = b = 0, there can be no > limiting value to f(n+1)/f(n), as the ratio will be periodic > too. The limit of the ratio does not exist. > > That's altogether correct, hence, you are the winner. The result > could have been obtained even with elementary math, I mention this only > for the rest of the people :-) The sequence f when drawn in a clock face, f(1)=1 at 12 o'clock, > f(1)= 1 at 1 o'lock etc looks as follows: > > * > * 1 * > 1-i 1 > * * > -i 1+i * -i * i > * -i-i * i > > * -1 * -1+i > * -1 > > And this is the legend: When God had created Heaven and Earth and > Mankind he took a little rest and looked at the sequence defined > by f(n+2) = f(n) + i*f(n+1). Notwithstanding, God saw at once the > above circle. And he said > > Ok, this may be the clock face for my creatures > > There is a very small missing detail in Virgil's argument. It's > correct that the sequence [f(n+1)/f(n)] is periodic as well, but > the period may perhaps be 1. This is not so as is seen by the > circle. Actually, the period is 3. AND THIS HOLDS TRUE FOR ANY > sequence f starting with any two reals a,b distinct from 0 and > obeying (1) above. Hence, my next challenge: Write a shortest possible UsrRPL program which yields the > 3 different terms of the sequence [f(n+1/f(n)] where f is > defined above with initial values a,b <> 0. > > - Wolfgang I can do it with f(0) and f(1) as input on the stack, in > levels 2 and 1 respectively, and the 3 ratios as output in > a UsrRL program of 35.0 bytes, with checksum of # 39588d, > though the last 2 ratios may appear in unfamiliar forms. My program is << / DUP INV SWAP i + OVER i - INV >. It takes a = f(0) and b = f(1) on levels 2 and 1 respectively, and produces 'b/a' which is f(1)/f(0) and 'a/b + i', which is an alternate form of f(2)/f(1), and '1/(b/a-i)', which is an alternate form of f(3)/f(2). Given f(0) = a and f(1) = b and f(n+2) = f(n) + f(n+1)*i, then f(2) = a + b*i, f(3) = b + (a+b*i)*i = a*i f(1)/f(0) = b/a f(2)/f(1) = (a + b*i)/b = a/b + i f(2)/f(3) = (a +b*i)/(a*i) = -i + b/a, so f(3)/f(2) = 1/(b/a-i) If a and b must be stacked in that order, 35 bytes does it. ==== Well, a man around here married a girl whose last name was Valentine; they liked that name better, so that's what they both used. I don't suppose the folks in Iceland take each other's names; since every boy seems to be called ...sohn and every girl seems to be called ...dottir, it could sound very strange to follow those French (etc.) customs ;-) Others hereabouts follow the liberal custom of not changing anything; we all just have to remember that Mr. Bunker (the computer prof.) and Ms. Brown (the art prof.) happen to be married. And since I have become married to my work (somewhat polygamously, it seems), you may now all refer to me henceforth as John Solaris NetWare NT5 Symantec Veritas 3_Com 100-Base-T (until my next divorce, anyway :) . ==== schrieb im Newsbeitrag > As I said: You're acting like a child. :) Oh, I'm hurt. Such cutting comments. Please don't upset me with > your barbarous barbs! > If you were frequently participating or even reading this ng, > you would know more about me. > Since you don't, it would be wise to check your archives before posting such > unqualified stuff. I've haven't really noticed you, to be honest. Hmmm, maybe it's because your > posts are boring? You sound a bit up tight. People I do notice are JKH, JYH, > posted before, but, not that I've noticed. :) I don't care about such comments too much. There were always bigmouths like you trying to catch attention, but they usually don't have the guts to stand to their words. It's easy to shout senseless things while staying anonymous, like you. ==== > I don't care about such comments too much. That's good. :) > There were always bigmouths like you trying to > catch attention, but they usually don't have the guts > to stand to their words. > It's easy to shout senseless things while staying anonymous, > like you. I wasn't shouting - really Raymond. Like SAVERPN, I just couldn't let your net.cop hand waving pass. If you don't like pseudonyms, fine - you made that clear. I'm also feeling free to make it clear that I see no problem with it. I tend to notice the contents and quality of the post, I really don't care who's actually posting. You know, on the net, nobody knows you're a dog. :) > have any interest contributing meaningful things here. > You just want to try to upset other people for fun. Really Raymond! I believe it was you who started with the insults. I assume you wanted to upset me? I'm wouldn't be on Usenet if I was so easily upset. And I don't wish to upset people, but if you don't like my opinion, and it upsets you, so be it. I don't like your opinion (on pseudonyms) but it doesn't upset me. > But this kind of unqualified comments like yours is one of various > reasons why most of the old HP fans and contributors left this newsgroup. Oh rubbish! It's more to do with HP pulling the plug on their decent calculators, and the fact the people do move on. Wish Dave A was still here though. Hmmm, hope it wasn't my unqualified comments (whatever that's supposed to mean) that drove him off. ;) > So please don't waste my time with your noise. Feel free to ignore me then. You could just killfile me, if this offends you so much, and you can't help wasting your time by replying. HTH, HAND. ==== > But this kind of unqualified comments like yours is one of > various reasons why most of the old HP fans and contributors > left this newsgroup. Yes, I confirm this, I know it from at least two of them. The level of this NG declined gradually. It is not because people who have really contributed to the 48/49 are called gurus, but check out how this bigmouth Nick interprets it. He is exactly of the same quality than the Nobody who attacked Raymond. If it is true that he didn't read Urroz's books then the worse! Working on the same field (in this case simply commenting the basic properties of the 49 to newbees) without at least quoting the predecessors, is considered as the most dirty buisness in software-engineering, even if payed only by chocolate. There is no excuse in this case that one hasn't read it. Whether commercial or not, it exist, and this is known to everybody in this NG. - Wolfgang ==== > But this kind of unqualified comments like yours is one of > various reasons why most of the old HP fans and contributors > left this newsgroup. > Yes, I confirm this, I know it from at least two of them. So, a sample of two is supposed to be statistically relevant? > The level of this NG declined gradually. It is not because > people who have really contributed to the 48/49 are called > gurus, but check out how this bigmouth Nick interprets it. > He is exactly of the same quality than the Nobody who > attacked Raymond. If it is true that he didn't read > Urroz's books then the worse! Yes, everything is going to hell-in-a-hand-basket. This is the same cry you'll hear from generation to generation, generally by those people, who don't like change. As they age, they'll tell you all about how good it _used_ to be, and _bad_ it is now. Oh, and Raymond was never *attacked*. He was simply disagreed with, after expressing his opinions on the posting etiquette of another contributor. Don't make such silly emotive statements. > Working on the same field (in this case simply commenting > the basic properties of the 49 to newbees) without at least quoting the > predecessors, is considered as the most dirty buisness in > software-engineering, even if payed only by > chocolate. There is no excuse in this case that one hasn't read it. > Whether commercial or not, it exist, and this is known to everybody in > this NG. I have no idea what you're going on about here...but I guess you don't like something someone else posted somewhere. ==== > But this kind of unqualified comments like yours is one of > various reasons why most of the old HP fans and contributors > left this newsgroup. Yes, I confirm this, I know it from at least two of them. I can confirm this too. People started to leave when they justifiably criticized the HP49G when it was released and were personally flamed for it. > The level of this NG declined gradually. It is not because > people who have really contributed to the 48/49 are called > gurus, but check out how this bigmouth Nick interprets it. > He is exactly of the same quality than the Nobody who > attacked Raymond. If it is true that he didn't read > Urroz's books then the worse! Working on the same field (in this case simply commenting > the basic properties of the 49 to newbees) without at least quoting the > predecessors, is considered as the most dirty buisness in > software-engineering, even if payed only by > chocolate. There is no excuse in this case that one hasn't read it. > Whether commercial or not, it exist, and this is known to everybody in > this NG. Quoting the predecessors? Are you referring to the HP48x manuals? -- Bhuvanesh ==== > As I said: You're acting like a child. :) Oh, I'm hurt. Such cutting comments. Please don't upset me with your barbarous barbs! > If you were frequently participating or even reading this ng, > you would know more about me. > Since you don't, it would be wise to check your archives before posting such > unqualified stuff. I've haven't really noticed you, to be honest. Hmmm, maybe it's because your posts are boring? You sound a bit up tight. People I do notice are JKH, JYH, posted before, but, not that I've noticed. :) ==== > A small hint: Query hpcalc.org and hpmuseum.org, c.s.48 or Google by > 'Raymond Hellstern' This was pour moi? You should learn to attribute. Really, I do believe you. Your self importance precedes you. :) ==== schrieb im Newsbeitrag > A small hint: Query hpcalc.org and hpmuseum.org, c.s.48 or Google by > 'Raymond Hellstern' This was pour moi? You should learn to attribute. > Really, I do believe you. Your self importance precedes you. :) > So now we come to *your* valuable contributions... ==== > schrieb im Newsbeitrag > A small hint: Query hpcalc.org and hpmuseum.org, c.s.48 or Google by > 'Raymond Hellstern' > This was pour moi? You should learn to attribute. > Really, I do believe you. Your self importance precedes you. :) > So now we come to *your* valuable contributions... *sigh*. I'm sure you've contributed a whole bunch of stuff, it's just odd that you feel the need to have to point it out.... ==== > How to make a programme > that asks you for values to fill into variables? You can use built-in commands: INPUT, PROMPT, INFORM, CHOOSE, and, of course, INMENU -- this last is a simple program which makes a menu whose labels name the variables you want. INMENU: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DA3BC89.465907D0%40miu.edu Here's a vague imitation of the one-variable-at-a-time INPUT command of the HP42S and HP32S[ii]; it shows you the current value, if any, and allows you to supply a new value (or leave the old value as-is): << -55. CF DUP IFERR RCL THEN DROP END = SWAP + + SWAP IFERR INPUT THEN DROP2 0. DOERR END {' SWAP + STR-> 1. GET DEFINE > 'VINPUT' STO To use: 'MYVAR' VINPUT Works on any HP48/49 calculator, but you can not perform calculations to compute input values, as you can with the HP42/32S[ii] calculators (and the INMENU command), which is a disadvantage of any method relying upon the HP48/49 INPUT command. INFORM allows you to calculate, but it's more cumbersome to do so. PROMPT allows you to calculate, but you have to press CONT (normally two keypresses) to resume the program. As we have seen, almost every method has some little drawback, so best don't ask for any input at all ;-) . ==== double quote before the words Type data... Would you know why??? *HP49* version: << { { OK << 0. MENU CONT > } } + TMENU #25EFFh SYSEVAL 2. ->HEADER Type data, press key PROMPT > 'INMENU' STO How to make a programme > that asks you for values to fill into variables? You can use built-in commands: INPUT, PROMPT, INFORM, CHOOSE, > and, of course, INMENU -- this last is a simple program which > makes a menu whose labels name the variables you want. INMENU: > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DA3BC89.465907D0%40miu.edu > Here's a vague imitation of the one-variable-at-a-time > INPUT command of the HP42S and HP32S[ii]; it shows you > the current value, if any, and allows you to supply > a new value (or leave the old value as-is): << -55. CF DUP IFERR RCL THEN DROP END > = SWAP + + SWAP IFERR INPUT THEN DROP2 0. DOERR END > {' SWAP + STR-> 1. GET DEFINE > 'VINPUT' STO To use: 'MYVAR' VINPUT Works on any HP48/49 calculator, but you can not perform > calculations to compute input values, as you can with the > HP42/32S[ii] calculators (and the INMENU command), > which is a disadvantage of any method relying upon > the HP48/49 INPUT command. INFORM allows you to calculate, but it's more cumbersome to do so. PROMPT allows you to calculate, but you have to press CONT > (normally two keypresses) to resume the program. As we have seen, almost every method has some little drawback, > so best don't ask for any input at all ;-) > . ==== I'm in the process of reviving my HP48, which I haven't used other than to change the batteries since 2000 sometime. Amazingly it hasn't forgotten anything - the battery in the merged card in slot 1 had expired, meaning I lost libs and stuff, but the slot 2 card was OK, and I had backups of everything there, and (I must have been prescient!) a little program to recover everything from the copies in the high ports. So I have it all working as it was in 2000, and now, after documenting things so I don't get so stuck again, I'd quite like to gently upgrade some of the libs I have to faintly current versions. One problem is that a lot of the URLs seem to have gone away - for instance alg48 doesn't live where it did, and the Java URL I have doesn't seem to have it any more (it has Jazz still..). Searching for `Java' on google isn't going to find me the current page, either... Is hpcalc.org pretty much a definitive location for hp48 things? It has a copy of most stuff (as ever), but I'm not sure if it's up to date? --tim ==== I write to point your attention to a behaviour of the SUBST command which IMHO could be improved. Executing this command on an differentiated argument automatically call the EVAL command - I think so - and this can be a bit fastidious in some cases. I'll make an example to explain better my POV. I've the equation: 'ddx(A+B+C)+T=0' With A, B, C that are constants for the HP49 but in my mind are functions and I've not explicitly declared their dependency from X to have a clearer notation. If I execute 'A=0' SUBST I have the ddx(A+B+C) automatically evaluated and so the result is 'T=0' which in fact is correct but it is not what I have in mind! :o) So there's a way to operate SUBST without calling EVAL? Maybe it could be modified in future ROMs? What do you think about this? Kickaha ==== > While the ARCHIVE command accepts long port names > RESTORE does not. Thus, one can create a HOME backup > under the name 2:HOME27.2.03 8:15 say, > but one cannot RESTORE it. I haven't read through the entire long thread; are you saying that *any* command doesn't just use *any* port-tagged name (ID) object presented to it? Perhaps the command-line compiler wouldn't like certain names, but usually there is no need to use the compiler; to get a port object name onto the stack, just enable last args and recall the port object to the stack, then LASTARG will return the port-tagged object name. Alternatively, change a string into an ID using $>ID (and then tag it with a port number). . ==== > I was thinking more of the others that might need it. Of course. I hope you don't mind that I have mentioned it. Perhaps we can use the built-in 39G filer as a starting point for the data manager, ... although better not think of the amount of hacking required ... Best Wishes, Tim HPCC #1046 X-Proxy-Client: kayeung@uiuc.edu from 12-221-88-122.client.insightBB.com ==== it will be available again May or June this year, is this just for Europe? in USA the price for 49G is going crazy....and no one said it will be produced again soon...... anthony thx....! : ) ==== There are many useful programs for the 48G which could also be very useful for the 48S if it weren't for one or two entry points which were new (or moved?) for the 48G. I have made a few of these work on my SX (for example, RclK from Keyman) by loading the GX ROM in emu48 and doing Jazz DOB on the offending entry. Then I replace that entry with the resulting program. The result is larger, of course, but it runs. Instead of single-stepping through a program to see which pointers cause a crash, a much better way would be to disassemble the program using an entry table where GX-only entries were flagged by a special symbol or postfix (e.g. _GX). I can easily modify the supported entry table that comes with Jazz to do this, because the GX distinction is marked in a comment. Unfortunately, most entries that I run into are unsupported (e.g., in OT48, which I'm trying to make work right now). I just recently found the entries database on hpcalc.org by Dominik/Rast/Kalinowski which seems to be quite comprehensive, with all the unsupported, stable 48G entry points. But, no way to tell if they exist in the 48S. So, this is a request to include the S/G distinction in entry point lists. It would help out us die-hard 48SX users. As a side effect, perhaps programmers would be more likely to use compatible entry points if they could tell which were which from the tables. Are there any existing lists of unsupported 48S entry points? Using that, I could take the intersection of the two sets and determine this information myself. But I only find supported 48S entries on hpcalc.org. What fraction of unsupported entries actually exist in the 48S? Most? Few? What fraction of them moved? When working with RclK, I used Derek Nickel's Voyager to search for identical code so I could just change the pointer rather than copy the code. But I didn't find anything similar. Is this worth the effort or are there too few like this to be worth it? Finally, any suggestions on what to do with pointers to ML code? E.g., #778D in OT48 points to ML with GOTOs to other ML code...a rats nest if I follow it all, I'm afraid. No alternative? Karl. ==== many years ago, when the G series came out, we had a solution for this. Please take a look at the sources of RPL48, by Detlef Mueller and Raymond Hellstern (me;-), available at hpcalc. There are some small routines for SysRPL and ML entries which are called with both the S and the G parameter, and return (or use) the appriorate one. So even if one uses many entries which have moved between S and G series, there's not much overhead. No need to follow the ROM code here. Many S(X) entries have slightly moved in the G(X), but since most of them do the same (in S and G), it's sufficient to do something like the following: ASSEMBLE =G_ONSRRP? EQU #0778D =S_ONSRRP? EQU #077C2 RPL then use a function like GX? This could look like :: ... GX?: G_ONSRRP? S_ONSRRP? ... ; Hope this helps. Raymond ==== Roger: the pain, anger and frustration that I'm feeling is that if my HP49g dies then all the hundreds of hours that I invested in learning how to use it are gone forever... can you garantee that I'll be able to buy another one for myself, or my daughter, say in another three years when she is in the middle of her first year of college? What is she going to do then? Switch to what in the middle of her tests? Buy a bunch now? franks ==== I wish I could share your optimism Joe, but I rather think that when evolution comes to an end, then sooner or later everything comes to an end. When after some couple of years the HP's will do only a tiny part of what other calcs are able to do at that time, then fewer and fewer people will use HP calcs. And as I don't think that anybody in this group will live for ever, it is almost sure that the group will also dissolve if no new machines are going to be introduced someday. *We* are having fun. *We* program. *We* play with numbers. This we is not going to be there for ever, unfortunately... or perhaps fortunately for the evolution. ;-) In the mean time the others play with more and more advanced hard- and software, and soon we'll be eating their dust. (Or do we already?) *If* no new HP-calc is going to see the light of day, then..... R.I.P. ==== franks@lanset.com, Buy-a-bunch-now(tm) works for me. They're cheap, plentiful and work as well as they ever did. I've got a couple of 49's, but I hate the ergonomics and much prefer my 48's: 3x 48GX, a G and G+, 4x 48SX and a 48S. I've got a 38G and 39G around here somewhere, a 12C, 16C, 28S and a 32Sii as well. Printers, cables, books, software, emulators on just about every other computer I have, including my iPaqs. I won't be running out of HP calculators anytime soon. Not that I'm worried. I expect most of them will be working long after I've stopped. ==== Actually, VTI is remarkably stable. It does not provide Flash app support, since it predates AMS 2.03, though. I'm sure you know the TI's also have RPN, right? I'm not trying to get you to switch; I'm just trying to even the playing field a bit, letting you guys know what the TI-68k really are. That's probably simply because there are thousands more TI users than HP users. Bhuvanesh. ==== Is this correct, that the TI calcs can be set to use RPN? -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Graves RKBA! bgraves@ix.netcom.com ==== I wasn't listening but I am listening now..better late than never ;-) And I wish you and everybody else a wonderful (bugfree) new year. ==== I copied the following libraries into my HP 48 to port 0 (it's a 48G+): ERABLEG.LIB KERNEL.LIB UFL3.LIB EQSTK.LIB I also downloaded the files : Setup GXKEYS when I hit the variable corresponding to Setup, the HP48 says connecting, and after about 10 retries, displays KGET Error: Timeout on each of lines 1 and 2 of the stack, it says GXKEYS in small text. Please help. ==== HP48 AUG US$29.95 at www.calcpro.com Monte ==== the site certificates do not match the name or some such worded warning came up twice of three times. Still trying, though. The price is certainly right. -- Richard... DH/DSS: 0x886DFF31 ==== you should be somewhat more precise: 48 or 49? What are you really aiming at? I do not see much sense of using longhold and double-click on the same key in the same plane. Independingly on your problem, let me announce that Keyman, Libman, Filers and some other tools have been updated on my site below. Since weeks my WinNT-PC is unable to launch hpcalc.org. Hence, these updatings cannot presently be transmitted to hpcalc.org. There is also a new tool on my site: LFONT, a size-7-font for the 49 mainly for logic & math, but also for general purpose because it allows printing sub- and super-scripts. LFONT seems to be in many respects better than the builtin FONT7. It is a small self-decompressing code of only 1.3 Kbytes (the default size of a regular font is 2065 bytes). Although my eyes are not in a good state anymore, I read it without problems. The big advantage of a size-7-font is the gain of a stack-level and that one gets more text on a screen, without loss of readability. - Wolfgang ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools/ ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/keys/ ==== It's in regrades to the 49G. I want to be able to toggle DEG, RAD mode and RECTANGULAR, CYLINDRICAL, SHPERICAL all from the divide key with a double click for the DEG, RAD and a long press for the RECTANGULAR, CYLINDRICAL, SHPERICAL. I notice it is done now with a shift hold on the SPACE key, so I thought it could be possible with out the shift hold on a different key. Stan -------------------- ==== In the 20 essential things to know about the 49G, It talks about changing the Keytime. I have two questions about this: First, what is the default setting? And secondly, Could someone explain how to change the setting a little clearer? I believe it says to type in the number you want the Keytime This won't seem to work for me in Algebraic or RPN. Maybe there's somewhere else you do this? ==== You can not connect your HP48 to your Motorola phone. They don't have the same upper protocols that would enable you to do that. The HP wants to talk Kermit. The Motorla phone would like to talk AT commands. They have different languages. I ==== The problem doesn't rely here. The mobile phone uses IrDA for its IR communication, where the HP48 uses pure IR. IrDA is a layer on top of pure IR. You can program your HP48 to make it able to talk IrDA at a software lowest acceptable speed for IrDA transmissions is 9600 bauds, and the IR of the HP48 is rated up to 2400 bauds only. -- ----- Mais d'o.9e qu'ils sortent tous comme .8da ? C'est une cuv.8ee sp.8eciale No.91l ? -+- MG in : GNU - Ya pas que la dinde qui est en avance -+- ==== Indeed, AT commands are not that difficult to learn to your hp48 :) This is by using hardware's uart. REMOTE doesn't use it, and seems to modulate signals itself. In the doc, it is said that S(X) series can sample in approx 29kHz, and G(X) samples in 44 kHz, so that even with S, one could be able to sample 14kHz signals, so indeed 9600 bps ?... Samuel Thibault ==== Geoff, there is a whole series of HP49's with this defect. They've been showing up all over the world, specially here in South America. If you put brand new alkaline batteries then the calculator will probably work as the defect causes the calculator to stop working when the battery voltage drops below 1.45V (each). Alternately, you can try the simple procedure in this link: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=capacitor+group:comp.sys.hp48&hl=en&lr=&ie =UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=atbbs3%2421l%241%40strauss.udel.edu&rnum=9 Luis ==== Here's some info about a new primality test. ==== Where is it? Allen -- Allen Windhorn (507) 345-2782 FAX (507) 345-2805 Kato Engineering (Though I do not speak for Kato) P.O. Box 8447, N. Mankato, MN 56002 Allen.Windhorn@LSUSA.com ==== When listening to Slow Hand (Eric Clampton) ;-) ==== Even better: Don't use M$ ;-) ==== Ah, apologies for my terrible grammar! What I meant to say was that the 89 does not calculate with infinite precision, nor does it calculate instantly and that this observation is based on experience with my 92+. However, my slide rules all compute to arbitrary precision (it's just difficult to read it off) and, furthermore, they are all parallel processing too which is something I have not yet noted with any electronic pocket calculator. So there. :-)) WigglePig ==== Can the TI-89 really calculate with arbitrary precision? Like SetPrecision[], or N[Pi,100] in Mathematica? ==== Does anyone has a train sound program for HP48? Tal ==== WR has a train program with a steam wistle sound take a look here: ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/hp48/games/ -- ir. P.F.Geelhoed Delft University of Technology Laboratory for Aero & Hydrodynamics Leeghwaterstraat 21, 2628 CA Delft, The Netherlands +31-15-2786656 / +31-15-2782947 (fax) ==== How about this: Anyone got a shorter version? Hehehe;-) Raymond ----- ==== :D GaaK ==== it is correct, thanks. GaaK ==== jazz. 19-6. Hmm. I don't know if the 49G even has this entry. By default I'm referring to the HP-48, which definitely has this entry. In either case, with a library in level 1, it returns the LibID and TRUE. Raymond ==== Raise your hands if you just bought a TI voyager 200 and are looking to buy a TI 83 silver edition for your 14 year old... When I think of the man years of effort that people here invested... it makes me want to puke... ==== Just in case anyone is listening... Have a very happy and properous New Year! Jorge Alberto ==== I have an HP38G and a Mac Interface cable with software. When I do a screen capture the program works fine, when I try a file download/upload the program hangs the Mac saying Waiting for calculator to initialise communication. What can I do to fix the problem. M@ ==== PATH RCL BYTES Works everywhere *except* in HOME, on all 48/49, works even with variable hiders, and avoids this never-fixed bug in BYTES (48S/48G/49G): { + } 1 GET 'X' STO 'X' BYTES [size should be 11 bytes!] . ==== [guessing how to specify INPUT arguments] http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DDE25D2.1A93CE59%40miu.edu . ==== I am trying to make use of the units capability of the HP49G to calculate the Reynolds number for fluid flow in a pipe: Re = (d*p*v) / u Where Re = Reynolds number--a dimensionless fluid flow parameter d = pipe diameter p = fluid density v = fluid velocity u = fluid viscosity Obviously, the formula is simple but the units are complex. Here is a typical problem I have for water flowing in a pipe: d = 6 inches p = 62.4 lbm/cubic foot v = 2.5 ft/sec u = 1.0 centipoise (Note that viscosity in Poise is defined as 0.1 (kg/m-sec) or 0.067 (lbm/ft-sec) The difficulty of this computation is to make the proper unit conversions to get a dimensionless number. You can see that the Reynolds number is dimensionless by the following units calculation Re = [ (length) * (mass/length^3) *(length/time) ] / (mass/length-time) All units cancel! In Mathcad, when I enter the values for the Reynolds number parameters, I can request my answer in dimensionless units. I know how to convert units on the HP49G but I do not know how to ask for a dimensionless unit. When I input the above values, the answer I get is: 936. (in*lb) / ( ft^2 * s *cP) Again, considering that cP (centipoise) is (lbm/ft-sec), these units are truly dimensionless. My question is-- how to I ask the calculator to display the answer in dimensionless units? The correct Reynolds number in this case is approximately 1.2 X 10^5 Can anyone suggest a way to prompt the calculator for the dimensionless answer to this seemingly simple engineering calculation? Jim Leflar ==== and Virgil. -- Al ==== mobile celular with came with a infrared port, the question is how can I connect my HP48 with this celular??, anyone has a experience with this??. thanks! --------------------------------------------- SPANISH: Hola, Recientemente compre un celular motorola timeport L7089 que tiene un puerto infrerrojo, la consulta es como puedo conectar con la HP48, si alguien tuvo experiencia con esto por favor avisenme. gracias! atte. Alfredo Arias ==== Hey, you forgot to apologize for your Spanish: Motorola Timeport... infrarojo, la consulta es c.97mo puedo... Better yet, just don't apologize at all. We are glad that at least you are trying, plus your English is not as bad as you make it sound. No flames, please. I just want to help, but in a much more important subject. Toby ==== Of course, uppercase are only for highlighting ;-) are L7089 this??. un ==== Hmm, I suspect that the 89 does neithers calculates with infinite precision, nor instantly as my 92+ fails to do either! However, my Pickett N3 and N3p (in Eye-Saver Yellow, of course) do both of the above and will remain my frequent companions... JasonG ==== You don't put units into the equation; instead, you attach units to the values which you store into the variables, as you use the numeric solver menu (30 MENU) or application form. In the solver menu (30 MENU, or left-shift SOLVE ROOT SOLVR), unshifted menu keys store values into variables; you need to attach units to the first value you ever store into a given variable, but if you want to change existing stored values, you may type just the number, and the menu key will then automatically attach any already-stored units to the new number! To attach units to numbers, you may use the units menus, or you may type the complete syntax, e.g. 1.23_ft^2 When you try to solve for a variable (left-shifted menu key), the solver then tries to evaluate the expression or equation. To avoid a Bad Guesses error at this point, you must pre-store at least one guess, along with consistent units for the answer; if you have no idea what to guess, store a guess of 0_units (using appropriate units). The HP Equation Library automatically takes care of all these units details by pre-storing 0_units into *every* variable, and so does a UserRPL User Equation Library which I once posted. You may similarly prepare your variables for solving frequently-used equations which use units: << { 0_units1 0_units2 ... } { var1 var2 ... } For multiple equation sets: << { 0_units1 0_units2 ... } { var1 var2 ... } To purge all numeric and unit variables and solver info from the current directory (i.e. a cleanup program): For HP49G you may use { 0. 13. 28. } TVARS . ==== I'm a little confused about what is UserRPL and what is SysRPL? I want to write a program to automatically look up Z-Value (In Normal Distribution Table) for me when I enter a value for Z. Would this be User or Sys RPL? Finally, where can I find a good guide on these so I can learn to program? ==== I want If I understan, you need the inverse of the UTPN command. I use the next solution: Define a new function UTPNZ in HOME: .82 0 1 X UTPN é é You can use this, instead UTPNZ for the Standard Normal Distr (ie: entering 0, you'll get 0.5) Now define UTZalfa (or the name you want): .82 'UTPNZ(X)' = 'X' 0 ROOT 'X' PURGE é This will give you 0, when you enter 0.5 in level 1 Hope this helps ==== Where is everyone? Is the source code finally being released, or is it too much bother to go through HP's legal department? :-( Al www.alborowski.tk ==== When, I don't really know. You don't get the OS source code either, but, as I understand it, the '49 How on earth should that enable anyone to fix anything by themselves? ==== I hope the MK for the 48 will be updated ==== JYA has written here that it won't. They could of course change their minds, but I doubt it. ==== minds, I don't doubt it :-( ==== Seen: Why, it must be the Chemical Rubber Company, of course, famed publisher of the indispensible Handbook of Chemistry and Physics [and CRC math tables] People who have interviewed me have commented on the extensive knowledge that I have about the properties of substances. I attribute this knowledge in part to the fact that I possessed the Rubber Handbook -Linus Pauling, Nobel Prize Winner, Chemistry (1954) and Peace (1962) http://www.crcpress.com/corphistory.asp Pauling signed the Mainau Declaration of July 15, 1955: We, the undersigned, are scientists of different countries, different creeds, different political persuasions. Outwardly, we are bound together only by the Nobel Prize, which we have been favored to receive. With pleasure we have devoted our lives to the service of science. It is, we believe, a path to a happier life for people. We see with horror that this very science is giving mankind the means to destroy itself. By total military use of weapons feasible today, the earth can be contaminated with radioactivity to such an extent that whole peoples can be annihilated. Neutrals may die thus as well as belligerents. If war broke out among the great powers, who could guarantee that it would not develop into a deadly conflict? A nation that engages in a total war thus signals its own destruction and imperils the whole world. We do not deny that perhaps peace is being preserved precisely by the fear of these weapons. Nevertheless, we think it is a delusion if governments believe that they can avoid war for a long time through the fear of these weapons. Fear and tension have often engendered wars. Similarly it seems to us a delusion to believe that small conflicts could in the future always be decided by traditional weapons. In extreme danger no nation will deny itself the use of any weapon that scientific technology can produce. All nations must come to the decision to renounce force as a final resort. If they are not prepared to do this, they will cease to exist. http://www.nobel.se/peace/laureates/1962/press.html What's new today? Nothing, except that mass death and suffering can now be dispensed by ever smaller groups or even individuals, not just the once few great powers; just watch as various famously hostile opponents keep placing their trigger fingers on their arsenals and dare anyone to get in their face, or actually do kill and maim as many of each other as they can, almost every day, and note the cost to the entire world of this vast waste of human energy and potential. One day, a kid at Columbine will have a garage full of WMD, and if the consciousness of the world has not developed faster than weaponry, he might wipe out his whole state at once, and millions more people from lingering after-effects. Our university's founder echoes the above declaration almost exactly, saying that it is a delusion that fear of weapons will prevent use of weapons, as arsenals of destruction proliferate and gather within the reach of people whose minds foster anger. The difference between physical scientists and the scientists of human consciousness, however, is that the former can only admonish that humanity shouldn't be heading where in fact it is going anyway, whereas the latter have demonstrated time and again, over more than 30 years, that human consciousness can be developed to find its fulfillment and be free of violence, in a way that nothing else can ever accomplish, using no other equipment than the mind itself. http://www.mum.edu . ==== It's not coincidence that the built-in CPU-assisted CRC is the same CRC as is used in the specs for the Kermit protocol -- initially the only file transfer protocol supported by the HP48. Commands 3 CKSM set the 48/49 to request a CRC block check on each Kermit packet transferred; the actual block check type used (1:6-bit checksum, 2: 12-bit checksum, 3: 16-bit CRC-CCITT) is the simpler of the types requested by sender vs. receiver, so if your Kermit comm software didn't care to implement CRC (or if you didn't set its default to CRC) then it won't use CRC. http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/hp48.html . ==== I have a 49G calculator with serial number ID94... Ive read a lot about indonesian models that have poor keyboards/screens but im not sure if mine does or not because I dont have a chinese model to compare it to. When I look directly at the screen it seems fine, but at extreme angles there is a rainbow effect. But you would never be looking at the calc at these angles. The keyboard also seems stiff but all 49G's are. ==== What you want is MOD but the MOD operator doesn't work for binaries. You can make your own though. # 123d #100d BMOD should return #23d. #123d #100d #123d #100d #123d #100d #123d #100d #1d #123d #100d #23d -- john R. Latala jrlatala@golden.net ==== Load up this program, it will give you more rational posibilities. http://ca-on.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=1403 Toby ==== XNUM is not the inverse of XQ. It only was in the first few ROMs, but sadly not for a long time now. If my memory doesn't fail me, ROM v1.05 had produced this: ==== sadly At least Erable3.2 does it in this way... ==== But this program is for the 48, not the 49. It _is_ very good on the 48. ==== You hold down ON, press and release F4, then release ON. This gives you the diagnostic menu, which also has a lot of other, undocumented features. To get out of it, do a warmstart using the same method with ON-F3. For lots of information on this and other topics, go to: http://www.hpcalc.org and scroll down to the HP49 section. The FAQ is a document full of lots of great stuff about your 49. Bill ==== Wow, that's fast. But I have the slowest one! I entertained myself today with this task, and although the goal was to make it fast, I was quite the opposite (think Flemming, the penicillin guy, please) Here it is: << 1 15 START 100 << 1 c << SWAP OVER LINE << SWAP OVER TLINE NEXT 2 26 FOR g g PICK 2 STEP 27 ANIMATE It will build 15 grobs, duplicate 13 in reverse order to close the animation loop, then animates them. I have 50K memory left, and it took about 10 minutes for the animation to start (v.s. .001 secs with RNDS). Like I said I AM THE SLOWEST!!! Toby ==== Straight from the calc, plus 1st line header: %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); << 1 15 << 1 c << SWAP OVER LINE << SWAP OVER TLINE NEXT 2 26 FOR g g PICK 2 STEP 27 ANIMATE I slipped an extra bracket in there on the previous listing, sorry. Toby make animation said ==== Bill, How did you enter the values for Y and X with units included in the solver? I had no trouble doing it with leftshift solve, but I couldn't figure out how to do it with rightshift solve. -- Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== As soon as I pressed send I realised that the work-around, of course, is not to use FOR...NEXT loops but REPEAT..UNTIL loops. Duh! -- Bruce Horrocks Hampshire England bh@granby.demon.co.uk ==== what is the CRC? ==== http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=CRC -- Kenyon Ralph | http://home.san.rr.com/ralphs/ | Semper Fi ==== Does anyone know where I can find the 32SII for below $70? Thanxs in Advance CID ==== Sorry, I should have been more explicit. He never had them on his website. and his phone number is (541) 752-8414. John ==== Before I contact him do u know the price he was selling them for? Thanxs in advance CID ==== Message in Greek: Geia!!! 2 xronia to exo, alla mhn fantasteis oti eimai kai eidikos! Kathe allo! Genika einai mhxanhma ton akron: pote kanei pragmata entyposiaka, pou den ta perimeneis apo calc, alla kai polles fores me apogohtevei. Me liges veltioseis tha mporouse na einai fovero ergaleio (kalytero keyboard, ligo megalyterh othonh kai kyrios ligo kalytero CAS), alla genika eimai eyxaristhmenos. Tora kano kai ta prota vhmata mou ston programmatismo. Vlepeis, ego eimai Pol. Mhx. kai ksekinao pio xamhla apo esena, poy eisai Hlektrologos :-) Pantos, oti thes rota, alla den sou eggyomai sigourh apanthsh! Kala pou yparxei kai ayto to news group :-) Kalo tha htan na epairnes kai ta vivlia tou Urroz! Ego ta agorasa kai kati katalavaino, giati ta manuals einai aisxos! An ta thes, ta exo, alla se .PDF form. Mporo na sta grapso se ena CD. Oso gia to ptyxio, kai ego sta teleiomata eimai! Diplomatikh!!! Ante, an teleiosoume, tha pame ston Ploutarxo proto trapezi pista me 10 gkomenes, na to kapsoume :-) Alex ==== is this normal? i was going to order it a few years ago, i dont remember it being that expensive, has it always been? i saw it for $56 used online, pretty much the cheapest ive seen it. anyone seen it for cheaper? thanks CJ ==== Now, in Spain, 20?, , I bougt it by about 24? two years ago. it ==== There must be a typo involved here - the program above worked fine on my HP49. Not that the Input command is very convenient. It's been a sore point for the 48 and the 49. See John's solution posted above. As for the learning curve, there sure is a near-vertical part at the beginning. That's true of a lot of things, such as calculus, but once you invest the effort to get past this, it becomes *much* easier, and the reward is incredible flexibility. Now if they'd just fix that keyboard.... Bill ==== One comment on the often used phrase RTFM. For a new user its often a big manual they are reading, and they might not always know were to look in it. Or they might just have missed the part needed. Also in any case sometimes, most of the time it is easier aand better to just plain ask someone who knows. After all whats the point of this group if it's not to help. What else are we going to waste the bandwidth on? My two cents Stan On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:49:25 -0800, slimey_limey ==== okay, sorry. ==== Try www.hpcalc.org. haven't ==== Spencer, The easiest and most reliable source for manuals for discontinued HP calculators is www.hpmuseum.org. Go to the web site and you can order a single CD or a set of up to 5 CDs which will have what you are looking for, plus a great deal more. They are not expensive, and the wealth of material provided is worth having. The material includes a lot besides just the 28S manual (in pdf format). Alternatively you can wait for a reasonably priced offering on eBay, but don't hold your breath:-) Mark. haven't ==== Oops, I stand corrected - it's now 7 CDS, but there's a DVD option too! Mark. haven't ==== Just a few remarks, as Colin and Manrique already replied. Why not the HP39G? I got mine from Samson Cables, but it can be purchased in Europe too: http://www.dynatech-bes.de (under ohne CAS) http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=8sltni%24c81%241%40web1.cup.hp.com VERSION should suffice, but in order to know the complete version number of an HP39G or an HP40G type in: LIBEVAL 171;58 It will probably return the strings: that his ROM version 1.32 has a label on the back that says: Press F2 at boot to switch between 39G and 40G. Then press ON+F3.), the HP38/39/40 are single version machines: a Sys-RPL programmer's dream! :) update. Indeed no flash seems to be used, as Arnauld Robin's picture shows: http://membres.lycos.fr/arnauldrobin/hardware.htm But the HP49's architecture has been retained: there are flash pages, flash pointers, and also the FLASHEVAL command. HPCC #1046 ==== Although the 40G has no flash ROM I hope it is worth the money (EU 60 compared to the 49G: EU 149!). I don't mind much programming on that calculator - for the big stuff there is the PC, for the lab at work I use my nifty little 32sii). Just interested in a calc with CAS to play with, e.g. at long railrod trips :-). Axel. ==== but don't forget the 40G does *not* feature RPL at the user level... So from the users side, it's an algebraic-only machine. Raymond ==== ç Hola ! Lucas: Lamentablemente las instrucciones est.87n en las FAQs. (en salvaje). L.8eete lo siguiente: **************************************************************************** *** 6.1 How do I stop my calculator from perpetually warmstarting? After installing a library, the HP49 sometimes warmstarts over and over again. If this happens after a library is installed in port 0 or 1, one might clear the memory to restore the calculator to normal operation. However, if the program is installed in port 2 (flash), there is no easy way to do this. For this reason, HP set up the HP49 to ignore all libraries if the backspace key is held down while warmstarting. Holding down the backspace key usually allows the calculator to be started normally, so the offending library can be easily removed. This probably is generally caused by installing a corrupted library, either because it was corrupted in transfer, was not written properly, or was written for a calculator other than the 49. **************************************************************************** *** ç Felices Fiestas ! Cordiales saludos desde Neuqu.8en - Patagonia ARGENTINA - Sud Am.8erica.[:å) Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK **************************************************************************** *** ==== board is above my head (never owned an HP or programmed with one). However, since you are all very well versed, I figured this would be a great place to post my question. I'm a 2nd semester Electrical and Computer Engineering student at the University of Florida. I am very familiar (and happy) with my TI-89. However, the vast majority of senior students and instructors say that HP is the most commonly used 'real-world' calculator. So, I think I would like to learn a bit more about them and possibly purchase one in the near future. However, I am in a bit over my head with which to choose. After doing some research, I am led to believe that the HP48GX is the choice for 'real-world' engineers, while the 49G is the choice for students and is similar to the TI-89. Is this a correct assessment? If so, is the HP48GX what I should be looking at purchasing? Any input is welcome. Shane ==== I don't know about the 48 series, but I would say that the 49g is a step up from the TI-89 (which I own). However, you will likely find that the keyboard on the 49g is vastly different from the 89's, not only in layout, but also in force. If you use both alternately, as I do, you will either hurt your fingertips on the 49g or find the 89's keyboard worn out. However, they both have their own benefits, such as the 89's units (don't get me wrong here, I use the 89 for units because it works great for me and the 49g's units boggle me) which you probably already know how to use, and the 49g's much larger array of engineering programs. The 89 is faster, but is written in C, so it is much slower than the 49g. However, since the 49g's OS is written in ASM, it is much faster at things like arithmetic. If you are doing factorials, get the 49g. I tested the 89 in a factorial contest against the 49g. The 89 maxed out at 68!, while the 49g was still going strong at 2500!, where I stopped due to lack of time. If you are doing serious programming, get the 49g. It has things like a builtin compiler, and etc. (not enough space here) I would recomment getting a 49g and keeping your 89, because no one calculator can do everything. ==== It's mostly over my head too. I just started seriously learning User RPL this morning in fact, after my last final for the semester. /tents fingers Excellent... This is sort of right. The 48* series is the choice of curmudgeonly old engineers, but the 49 is just as good. The software and computing hardware of the 49G is superior to that on the 48 series, but the keypad and screen are better on the 48, all IMHO of course. I think that a lot of engineers sneer at the 49 because of the color. Personally, I am the happy owner of both. Since you are a TI user, you would probably like the 49. It has both the RPN and Algebraic entry modes, so you could start in Algebraic, then transition over like I did. Basically, what I'm saying is buy both. Use the 49G in class and for homework, but when you want to impress the grumpy old men use the 48. You're welcome. -- | Keiran | | http://www.umr.edu/~faucett | ==== LOL! I'm the grumpy old man! Get a 48GX if you can. Best of the best! Also make sure to get the advanced manual. ==== Just a note on the 89. The TI89 with a little program called Equation Writer, (its freeware or a better version from TIs site is $15) has a real nice cas interface, dare say better than the 49, and its fast too. I own both 89 and 49 so I try to be fair. Stan On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 20:08:19 -0800, slimey_limey ==== Nick, I just wanted to thank you for all your effort. Your marathons have helped me quite a bit. Without some of your information, I likely would have gone to the Dark side by now. Matt ==== I wish I could say that it did but the 1x3 Matris was an error on my part when I was composing my pose for the internet...I in fact am making a 4x3 in my calculator. ==== hi see above for problem. for example, when i want to evalute the limit of a function ,the HP49 asks me if i want to switch to rad and to turn num mode off. and when its done i always have to set it back to degrees and turn num mode on. do i do something wrong ? thx for your help ==== ASCII and Unicode are character encodings. A character encoding says which characters correspond to which bit strings; a font is a description of how to render characters graphically. The HP 48 uses something passably close to the ISO 8859-1 character encoding. I would guess the HP 49 does too. -- Steve VanDevender I ride the big iron http://jcomm.uoregon.edu/~stevev Little things break, circuitry burns / Time flies while my little world turns Every day comes, every day goes / 100 years and nobody shows -- Happy Rhodes ==== The former is more standard. Most, if not all, computer algebra systems use it, and that's the evaluation rule I was taught in college, too. To specify a particular order of evaluation, you can use parentheses, as shown above. -- Bhuvanesh ==== There are certain conventions in math, in exponential function, exeptionally, right bracketing is the general convention. That is, '3^2^3' should be read as '3^(2^3)' as on the HP49. But clearly, this deviation from the 48 standard should have been clearly documented at various places. Why right-bracketing for exponents? Because '(3^2)^3' cries for immediate simplification to '3^6'. And please observe that in elementary and advanced mathematical textbook the rule '(a^b)^c = a^bc is never written without brackets on the left hand side. I believe that the Corvallis people didn't yet think on combining the 48 with a CAS. Thus, they consequently applied RPN notation also where it contradicts convention. - Wolfgang ==== There are certain conventions in math, in exponential function, exeptionally, right bracketing is the general convention. That is, '3^2^3' should be read as '3^(2^3)' as on the HP49. But clearly, this deviation from the 48 standard should have been clearly documented at various places, at least in various ACO postings talking about backward compatibility (which is unrealistic :-) Why right-bracketing for exponents? Because '(3^2)^3' cries for immediate simplification to '3^6'. And please observe that in elementary and advanced mathematical textbook the rule '(a^b)^c = a^bc is never written without brackets on the left hand side. I believe that the Corvallis people didn't yet think on combining the 48 with a CAS. Thus, they consequently applied RPN notation also where it contradicts some traditional convention. - Wolfgang ==== I've MK installed in my 48 and AGROB for MK (http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/apps/mk/agrob4mk.zip), one of the best grob scrollers (from JAVA): If I use the EQW for writing the expression, AGROB shows me it in pretty print without brackets, exactly as the MK or 49 stack. EVAL gives 6561. If I use only the 48 keying ' for writing in the edit line, the MK stack shows the same than before, but AGROB shows me the expression left bracketed. EVAL gives 729. The good thing of all this, is that AGROB let me see what is *really* happening ==== mentioned backward compatibility. JYA seemed to have assumed that everybody had the MK :-) MK stuff seems indeed to be backward compatible. But is this the right platform if one speaks of backward compatibility of the 48G and the 49G? - Wolfgang ==== mentioned backward compatibility. JYA seemed to have assumed that most people had the MK :-) But is MK the right platform if one speaks of backward compatibility of the 48G and the 49G? - Wolfgang ==== Certainly not. MK48 or MK49 might run as the original 48 when possible (I think it is, in this case) ==== ...but you are right: backward compatibility IS, or is no backward compatibilty. ==== It is more or less obvious by now that backward compatibilty - except for the most simple UsrRPL programs - is not granted. With SysRPL there are seemingly less problems, although some basic commands (e.g. XYDGROBDISP) behave differently. a way out. Before porting a UserRPL program set flag -53, edit and recompile the program which (hopefully) sets all brackets properly :-) - Wolfgang ==== I just ran that expression through Maple - it doesn't even try to pass judgement on it. When it is entered, exactly as 3^2^3; it complains about expected semicolons. Haven't tried any other CAS's though. -Mike ==== It is more or less obvious by now that backward compatibilty - except for the most simple UsrRPL programs - is not granted. With SysRPL there are seemingly less problems, although some basic commands (e.g. XYDGROBDISP) behave differently. a way out. Before porting a UserRPL program set flag -53 on the sending machine which (hopefully) sets all brackets properly :-) - Wolfgang ==== Truss49 in the conversion done by Edwin Cordoba presents an error upon drawing the truss upon seeming is the only error because the results are performed correctly. It fits to clear up that changing the system of coordinates to a right system the truss draws correctly but the results are incorrect. Errors that Truss48 does not present. The question is if this error to be corrected by Alain soon. Greetings. V.92ctor Moctezuma Hdez. By my race spoke the spirit (I sit down the lack of clarity but my native language is Spanish) ==== I will see what can be done about that. Caspar Note that the original Truss48 is bugfree, it is just the port that is bugged. ==== Does anybody know something about Mika Heiskannen? What is he doing or if he is still making programs for HP calcs? I have tried to enter in his web page, but It is closed. thanks Akula ==== My Emu48 1.31 with HP49 ROM is behaving VERY BADLY. it crashes while installing libraries(they work on my real 49G), compiling system-rpl, and even using the filer. it started since I installed windows 98. on windows 95 it didn't happen. why? is that a emulator bug? my computer is a pentium 200, 32 mb ram, 1.6 gb hd, on-board HSP modem, etc... Karma Policer Bother, said Pooh, as his HP41 displayed MEMORY LOST. ==== I'm starting to program in SYS-RPL. I like to decompile built-in commands and many times I find something like this ptr 1AC93 . To decompile this I use the rclx command of the HACK library. I type #1AC93h on the stack and then run rclx and DIS. But sometimes I get something like this: Romptr AB 6D nad I don't know how to acces to this pointer. Anyone knows? Akula ==== I recently bought an HP 39G thinking it would have more than enough of what I need. I was looking in particular for good solid matrix operations, and the calculator seems to deliver. Everything seems fine, except that the calculator does not have base conversions??? What the hell? How much would you miss not having base conversions and binary/hex/octal operations if you are a software developer? (I guess it depends what kind of software developer, let's say you might do some somewhat low level stuff every now and then). Shall I return this and get an HP48xx? (I see JAndR still has the HP 48G+ for about $99). I am also shocked to see HP is kind of letting go of the calculator market or so it seems. The 49G is no longer on their website as it was previously... I wonder what's up with them. - Raist ==== If you go to my website at http://www.hphomeview.com and look on my Misc aplets page you'll find a new aplet (well a library actually) called Library L1540. This adds a whole heap of commands to the 39G which, amongst other things, do conversions. ==== Look, Thierry Morissette , said Karma Policer, and typed: LOL! HP49G = 100% discontinued? -- Karma Policer - Brazil ==== When I do an ON+A+F(F1+F6) it falls into the diagnostics loop (ON+F). The A(F1) key works normally. Why? ------------ Karma Policer Pentium 233 32 MB RAM 2 GB Hard Drive ==== John H Meyers used to swear: Actually I use it. It's good to develope a (commercial) anti-piracy method for HP49 programs. You develope a program for an given 49, it will run only on the model. One thing that is so easy on HP is so hard on the PC. Why? =D -- THIS TAGLINE HAS BEEN UNREGISTERED FOR 36 DAYS- by TAG-PICK beta - picking from a 150000 lines file. ==== Is there a source for this program other than the ftp address above, since I cannot connect with that address. ==== A while back in comp.lang.scheme there was some thread about self-evaluating evaluators (in other words, interpreters for a language written in that language itself) in which someone posted this rather odd-looking evaluator for his self-invented programming language Joy. I looked up his web page on the topic: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/philosophy/phimvt/joy.html and it turns out Joy is a stack-based language conceptually similar to RPL in many ways, although with a rather more theoretical bent. I haven't really had time to play with it but the introductory material is intriguing. Those of you with a computer science background may find the theoretical papers there kind of interesting too. I asked the author if he had ever heard of RPL before, and he said he hadn't. -- Steve VanDevender I ride the big iron http://jcomm.uoregon.edu/~stevev Little things break, circuitry burns / Time flies while my little world turns Every day comes, every day goes / 100 years and nobody shows -- Happy Rhodes