D-8 How can I view a vector on several lines? > eg. when I Put the vector [15. 14.] (in rectangular mode) and change to cylindrical mode, the vector is only shown on one line. [20.5182845287 < .75... How can I view this on several lines? Set flag -98. Then all vectors are shown verical, that is, each element occupies one distinct line. Notice that flag -97 does the same for lists, that is, each element of a list is shown in a separate line when flag -97 is set. ==== So let's give it an eye. Just for the case you didn'*t know, if you store a list of two or more complex expressions in EQ, then all of them will be ploted. So if EQ contains: { '2*cos(2*t)-4*cos(t)+i*(2*sin(2*t))' '4+r*cos(t)+i*r*(1+sin(t))' } then the poor creature of the sea will get its eye. The parameter r is a real number, say 0.5, that adjusts the radius of the eye, so when the fish is ready we can say that it works inside the specified parameter range... (It's name is Data ). ==== Oh, I thought about general graphics & plotting, but I guess that applying them to real problems is more fruitful. ==== Yeah, at least something that I am compatible to. Perhaps the ACO has created the HP49G *and* me as its defender, and I don't know that because they put the memories of my life in my ROM??? JYA what were you really doing for months at HP? Ah, and not to forget. Look at the thread STORE, UNASSIGN and recurrences to see another usage of these commands for graphing sequences/recurrences. ==== > HPTools and Debug2 are the best development tools available for the HP4x > series. ==== > The only problem with the Debug4x is > that the other beta testers are so quick to document a problem > that while I'm finished, there's another , new, better version available. > All I can say now that with this Xtreme rate of development > we will not have to wait until Xmas and the best thing is: > the new tool is 48G/49G aware and enormously helps releasing > applications simultaneously for both calculators. > Amazing! I am playing with the Kermit code and hope to add the cable connection software to Debug4x in the future. BUT I have to decide what to do about the 48 connection. Either add Kermit code for the 48 or provide a XModem download for the 48. I have not found any good SysRPL source for 48 XModem yet but am still looking! -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >I am playing with the Kermit code and hope to add the cable connection >software to Debug4x in the future. BUT I have to decide what to do >about the 48 connection. Either add Kermit code for the 48 or provide >a XModem download for the 48. I have not found any good SysRPL source >for 48 XModem yet but am still looking! I'm a bit confused by what you say because the 48G *does* have xmodem built in via the xrecv and xsend commands. What it doesn't have is a server version like the 49. Only 48S users would have a problem because the 48S has no xmodem capability of any description, but you could easily solve that by having an option to save files to the PC's disk and then the user can use an external Kermit program to do the transfer manually. -- ==== > I'm a bit confused by what you say because the 48G *does* have xmodem > built in via the xrecv and xsend commands. What it doesn't have is a > server version like the 49. Only 48S users would have a problem because the 48S has no xmodem > capability of any description, but you could easily solve that by having > an option to save files to the PC's disk and then the user can use an > external Kermit program to do the transfer manually. Of course, the projects are saved and the user currently has to figure out how to get them to the calculator. Since Debug4x does such a nice job of handing things to the EMU48 I want to do the same with the real calculator. With a XModem server, this can be done very nicely on the 49, I could add a Kermit server for the 48 for the same purpose but since Kermit is slow, I want to try and do the same solution for both machines. It is a server that I am looking for. There is one on HPCalc that might do it, but there is no SysRPL source and, of course, the protocol details are different than the HP XModem client. > I am playing with the Kermit code and hope to add the cable connection software to Debug4x in the future. BUT I have to decide what > to do about the 48 connection. Either add Kermit code for the 48 or provide a XModem download for the 48. I have not found any > good SysRPL source for 48 XModem yet but am still looking! ==== I have posted Professional Blackjack, version 1.1, to HPCalc, http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=5316. It is a machine language program with a small amount of RPL for argument checking and memory allocation. The program and its required library object are less than 20k bytes. This program is the result of about two years of on-and-off programming and another year of learning currently accepted statistical standards of blackjack. It can be configured for all player levels and includes several pre-configured library objects for common skill levels. Please check it out. I have been playing it in its current form for about a year without any ==== I just got my new HP 48GX with the black screen. Of course it has painted keys. But that's not really a problem. The problem is that in the paint on one arrow key is a piece of fluff. I'm really wondering whether HP has anything like quality controls. Nowadays you are very lucky if you get a calculator from HP without giving cause for complaint. ==== HP Emulator is a HP48 GX emulator for windows. This is the first release and it is still in alpha state. But I would like some feedback. You can get it from the project homepage on sourceforge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/hpemu Features in version 0.9.0: * Saturn CPU (most instructions) * Daisy-chain * ROM * RAM * Card ports 1 & 2 (untested) * Bank-switcher (untested) * Hardware registers (some of them) * Hardware CRC * Timer1 (not complete) * Timer2 (not complete) * Interrupt system (not complete) * LCD (grayscale) * Keyboard (not complete) -- ==== > I just got my new HP 48GX with the black screen. Of course it has > painted keys. But that's not really a problem. The problem is that in > the paint on one arrow key is a piece of fluff. > I'm really wondering whether HP has anything like quality controls. > Nowadays you are very lucky if you get a calculator from HP without > giving cause for complaint. Luckily, my two 48, a G+ and a GX, are defect-free, altough they are both made in Indonesia. Their quality is not comparable to the feeling of real HP quality of the HP calculators made in the U.S. and Singapore in the eighties, nonetheless they are still superior to other calculators. As an example, try a Sharp graphic calculator and you won't even be able to read the display because of its poor quality (I have got two, an EL-9400 and an EL-9650). -- expand solve symbolically do algebra like this x+x=2x or x*x=x^2 but more complicated Can the 48gx do all of those things without memory cards? ==== chris heaton escribi.97 en el mensaje > without $100+ dollar memory cards Have you seen this?: http://uuhome.de/oklotz/index_e.html If you buy some extra memory you will get almost a 49 in a 48 body > factor > expand > solve symbolically > do algebra like this x+x=2x or x*x=x^2 but more complicated You can install Ag48 for do these things. ==== I turned on my 49G during a test today and I had left the beep and key click on. In the process of turning off the beep it beeped 6 more times. It was a little embarassing. I would like it if I could use a program to turn the beep off, so that I could turn the beep off with only 1 beep the next time that I forget. Any ideas on how to turn the beep off with a program? ==== > I would like it if I could use a program to turn the beep off, > so that I could turn the beep off with only 1 beep the next > time that I forget. Hmm! Interesting mini-challenge! With the most recent ROM version, the most keystrokes required is four: hold [left-shift] down and press [MODE]; then press [MISC] [BEEP]. The only sure-fire SINGLE-key solution that I can think of is to assign << -56 SF > to a primary key and leave USER mode on at all times. Then, whenever you want to turn the beeper off with a single key click, just press that key. If two clicks are acceptable, you can assign it to a shifted key (or shift-and-hold key), which wouldn't waste a primary key. http://HolyJoe.org ==== > I would like it if I could use a program to turn the beep off, > so that I could turn the beep off with only 1 beep the next > time that I forget. Hmm! Interesting mini-challenge! With the most recent ROM version, the most keystrokes required is four: > hold [left-shift] down and press [MODE]; then press [MISC] [BEEP]. The only sure-fire SINGLE-key solution that I can think of is to assign > << -56 SF > to a primary key and leave USER mode on at all times. Then, > whenever you want to turn the beeper off with a single key click, just > press that key. If two clicks are acceptable, you can assign it to a > shifted key (or shift-and-hold key), which wouldn't waste a primary key. I assigned the <<-56 SF> to the HIST key which I have never used, and it does exactly what I wanted. ==== > I would like it if I could use a program to turn the beep off, > so that I could turn the beep off with only 1 beep the next > time that I forget. Hmm! Interesting mini-challenge! With the most recent ROM version, the most keystrokes required is four: > hold [left-shift] down and press [MODE]; then press [MISC] [BEEP]. The only sure-fire SINGLE-key solution that I can think of is to assign > << -56 SF > to a primary key and leave USER mode on at all times. Then, > whenever you want to turn the beeper off with a single key click, just > press that key. If two clicks are acceptable, you can assign it to a > shifted key (or shift-and-hold key), which wouldn't waste a primary key. You could write your program and store it in VAR. then at most it would only be 2 clicks if the program was sorted to the beginning of the softkeys. I am a big fan of VAR. I use it all the time. ==== > I would like it if I could use a program to turn the beep off, > so that I could turn the beep off with only 1 beep the next > time that I forget. Hmm! Interesting mini-challenge! With the most recent ROM version, the most keystrokes required is four: > hold [left-shift] down and press [MODE]; then press [MISC] [BEEP]. The only sure-fire SINGLE-key solution that I can think of is to assign > << -56 SF > to a primary key and leave USER mode on at all times. Then, > whenever you want to turn the beeper off with a single key click, just > press that key. If two clicks are acceptable, you can assign it to a > shifted key (or shift-and-hold key), which wouldn't waste a primary key. Anybody know of a better solution? A HW switch for the buzzer? ==== > Anybody know of a better solution? > A HW switch for the buzzer? That's good! Turn it off, and end of story. Sometimes it can be kept simple P.S. Perhaps Rcobo could connect some switch to the HP49G and control it through his brain-user-interface or whatever the thing is called. ==== = Write a program to turn the flag off (set flag -56) for it and then go to http://www.hpcalc.org and download Keyman. Then assign that program to a key. Keyman is an indespensible program for the 48/49. Doug > I turned on my 49G during a test today and I had left the beep and key > click on. In the process of turning off the beep it beeped 6 more > times. It was a little embarassing. I would like it if I could use a program to turn the beep off, so that > I could turn the beep off with only 1 beep the next time that I > forget. Any ideas on how to turn the beep off with a program? ==== > Found this on a website, dealmac.com. Can't seem to find the product on > PowerON's website, but they've had these before. Given that you can > apparently enable the CAS with an aplet, this is a pretty good deal, IMO. > Note, that I have no connection with these people. That's really a bargain, it costs more to HP to produce them .. ==== > Replace all instances of y by y(x) to indicate that y is, > implicitly, a function of x. On the HP48, put x on the stack below the equation and press the > derivative operator, the right-shift SIN button. You shuld see an expression with 'dery(x,1)' representing the > derivative, for which you can solve. calculator? Or must I do this by hand? > On the HP49, you also start by replacing all y by y(x). Then do x DERIV, and then do 'd1(y(x)' SOLVE. You sould get 'd1y(x)=2*x/(3*y(x)^2+2*y(x)-5)' Your dy/dx is represented by 'd1y(x)' here. isolate 'd1y(x)' each time. -- Huey ==== Replace all instances of y by y(x) to indicate that y is, > implicitly, a function of x. On the HP48, put x on the stack below the equation and press the > derivative operator, the right-shift SIN button. You shuld see an expression with 'dery(x,1)' representing the > derivative, for which you can solve. calculator? Or must I do this by hand? If there is, I forgot it. ==== > which reminds me of a question that i had... is it possible to mod the > 49 for more memory? Tetoies montes den problepontai apo thn HP. Warranty void if kai ta resta. Soldering more RAM won't do it (probably). I think you will have to remove the old chip and replace it with a bigger one. Since (again, I think) the ROM counts the RAM at module attachment time, you will have a, say, 4MB 49G. ==== > ==== > But, the fact that the U.S. has saved Europe doesn't mean that no > critics will be expressed. And nobody criticizes and bashes you and > the whole U.S. but solely this particular decision of the president to > attack Iraq under any circumstances. This is the point of arguing but > not the whole U.S. If Mr. Randerson had more closely observed the workings of his government (if he had watched the C-SPAN TV channels, say) he would be more aware that Americans can have views in opposition to the Administration whilst failing to bash America. The following interested me: http://c1.zedo.com/bar/v6-400/c1/jsc/ie4.html?c=3;n=167;z=15;s=11;w=1;h=1 Evil Evildoers Of Evil How to feel calmly patriotic and yet not the slightest bit reassured by Bush & Co. ==== ==== Dear friends (I'm so happy that everyone is a friend right now ), on Friday evening I successfully compiled my first ML/assembly program, which I improved on Saturday evening to be a bit cooler . Basically, it just beeps and lights the buzzer indicator of the LCD. So, here it is, to help anyone that wants to program in ML to get started: % BEEP, LIGHT THE INDICATOR !ASM GOSBVL =SAVPTR % (or SAVE) save the state of the RPL OS LA 08 % Read the Saturn Processor Reference by Mastracci to LC 80 % understand how the LCD pointers work. A=A!C.B % However, I don't quite understand the purpose of this or. % Isn't the indicator supposed to be just the 3rd bit? D0= 0010B % This is the address of the hardware register that controls % the indicators on the top of the LCD. DAT0=A.B % Writing to D0 you write the address of the pointer. To % actually write to that address you must write to DAT0. LC(5) 1000 D=C.A % The D register holds the value for the frequency of the % sound. LC(5) 500 % The C register holds the value for the duration of the % sound. GOSBVL =makebeel % or 267F3, this is the beeper routine LA 0 DAT0=A.B % Turn the indicator off. GOSBVL =GETPTRLOOP % (or LOADRPL) go back to the RPL OS. @ That's it, people. I'm a bit troubled about why A=A!C.B (in line 6) is needed. -- Al. Andreou http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ ==== > LA 08 % Read the Saturn Processor Reference by Mastracci to > LC 80 % understand how the LCD pointers work. > A=A!C.B % However, I don't quite understand the purpose of this or. > % Isn't the indicator supposed to be just the 3rd bit? you could do just: LC 88 and DAT0=C.B 2 lines later, or even faster: LC 8 DAT0=C.1 later (to change just the last nibble) > D0= 0010B % This is the address of the hardware register that controls > % the indicators on the top of the LCD. > DAT0=A.B % Writing to D0 you write the address of the pointer. To > % actually write to that address you must write to DAT0. > LC(5) 1000 > D=C.A % The D register holds the value for the frequency of the > % sound. > LC(5) 500 % The C register holds the value for the duration of the > % sound. > GOSBVL =makebeel % or 267F3, this is the beeper routine > LA 0 > DAT0=A.B % Turn the indicator off. > GOSBVL =GETPTRLOOP % (or LOADRPL) go back to the RPL OS. > @ ==== I'm looking for some example graphics code in ML/assembly, preferably for the 49G. Do you have anything in mind? I'd love something simple, that won't get me in much trouble. Disassembling existing code is a bit messy (although Nosy4.0 is very helpful). -- Al. Andreou http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ Reply-To: peter@dutw1479.wbmt.tudelft.nl ==== I'm looking for some example graphics code in ML/assembly, preferably for > the 49G. Do you have anything in mind? I'd love something simple, that > won't get me in much trouble. Disassembling existing code is a bit messy > (although Nosy4.0 is very helpful). You could take a look at: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=5007 ==== > You could take a look at: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=5007 Yes, I've seen it and am actually reading the sources. -- Al. Andreou http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ ==== Has anyone tried using the HP48 for non-linear constrained optimization, if so is there source code available? Need not be any fancy stuff, just as long as it works;) BR Matti ==== > Installed the new filer2 and I now get the error message Erreur: Type > Argument Incorrect. It also appears to have set the calculator so some > prompts and messages are now in french. I removed everything which referers to french ROM words because I do not get an answer from JYA whether these words (VOIR, ARBO etc) are already builtin in the last ROM 19-6. Thus, there is no reason why the new Filers on my site below shouldn't work in ROM 19-6. This must be present on your 49 anyway. What is new? Besides an improvement of the ZOOM option (finds now any name, also it it starts with $, for instance) and the addtion of a language toggler essentially this: The SPC key is multifunctional now. If a directory is scanned SPC invokes a HIDE/UNHIDE choose box You can hide the selected (or tagged) names, but never all files of a directory - this is dangerous be interesting that you can now unhide a subset of all hidden names, just the selected (or tagged) ones. Classical unhiders were not as comfortable. If beeing in a port, SPC sets a ARCHIVE/RESTORE choose box. And here comes the surprise: The ARCHIVE name is HOME... where the dots represent the actual date and time of when you made your HOME backup. You will normally see in the filer box, for instance HOME29.10.02 provided you use European date format. But toggling with VARS, you see for instance HOME29.10.02 13:20:56 i.e., also the precise time when your bachup was made. Thus, the new HP49 filers are as clever as modern UNIX or WINDOWS tools. I was surprised myself that this works. For notice that the HOME backup-name is but this doesn't disturbe RESTORE or PURGE in the slightest way. Now I finally understand why JYA made names treatment by the filer as tolerant as it it. Or is this a pure accident? ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools/ ==== Loaded your 29/10/02 version and it's working fin . Don't know which version I d/l'd that gave the error message in french, maybe it just got corrupted in the d/l, I never checked CRC. My appolagies, your wonderfull utilities have never given any problems in the past so I just lept in and loaded it without any sensible checking or caution. Bit like how MS expects Windows to automatically d/l every patch they issue and then your left disconnected from the network for 5 hours while the system guys try to work out what happened. Like the zoom, hide and archive features Stephen.N > Installed the new filer2 and I now get the error message Erreur: Type > Argument Incorrect. It also appears to have set the calculator so some > prompts and messages are now in french. I removed everything which referers to french ROM > words because I do not get an answer from JYA whether > these words (VOIR, ARBO etc) are already builtin > in the last ROM 19-6. Thus, there is no reason why the new Filers on my > site below shouldn't work in ROM 19-6. This must > be present on your 49 anyway. What is new? Besides > an improvement of the ZOOM option (finds now any > name, also it it starts with $, for instance) and > the addtion of a language toggler essentially this: The SPC key is multifunctional now. If a directory > is scanned SPC invokes a HIDE/UNHIDE choose box > You can hide the selected (or tagged) names, but > never all files of a directory - this is dangerous > be interesting that you can now unhide a subset > of all hidden names, just the selected (or tagged) > ones. Classical unhiders were not as comfortable. If beeing in a port, SPC sets a ARCHIVE/RESTORE > choose box. And here comes the surprise: The ARCHIVE > name is HOME... where the dots represent the actual > date and time of when you made your HOME backup. > You will normally see in the filer box, for instance > HOME29.10.02 > provided you use European date format. But toggling > with VARS, you see for instance > HOME29.10.02 13:20:56 > i.e., also the precise time when your bachup was made. > Thus, the new HP49 filers are as clever as modern > UNIX or WINDOWS tools. I was surprised myself that > this works. For notice that the HOME backup-name is > but this doesn't disturbe RESTORE or PURGE in the > slightest way. Now I finally understand why JYA made > names treatment by the filer as tolerant as it it. > Or is this a pure accident? > ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/tools/ ==== > Installed the new filer2 and I now get the error message Erreur: Type > Argument Incorrect. It also appears to have set the calculator so some > prompts and messages are now in french. How do I change my HP49 back to english? > 0 ->LANGUAGE ==== > How do I change my HP49 back to english? > 0 ->LANGUAGE As is seen from the question, not everybody knows about language-switching on the HP49. Mainly Germans do not since German doesn't have the honour to be a builtin language Anyway, in ROM 19-7 even menu names (in the filer, for instance) will be language-sensitive. The new OT49 is already prepared for the future. It contains several useful togglers (for angle, coordinate systems, fonts etc) and, in particular a pretty language toggler. The names in English, French and Spain will all be in the message tables of certain builtin libs. This also concerns most messages from the CAS lib. I really like them, in particular the french ones. For instance, in my filers from next year on, when making a HOME backup and if you're tired to watch these annoying english Wait please... you may switch to French to see then Patienter... Amazing, good occasion to learn French ... PS. I wonder were you, JYA, got all those spanish names from, do you have a spanish girl-friend? ==== ==== Dumb the English and use a real language like Finnish (&French :) PS: The real question is here: Will my FinLib49 work with the 1.19-7 ??? Is there an easy way to translate completely to Finnish, German, Swedish (Greece? - using Greek alphabet <- note: it is actually alpha-beta eg. Greek!) Can I have a version of the 1.19-7 beta-beta for translation to FI purposes?? I think that the Languages should be released as langtable1..n (like extable) where one can control how many languages are available with the internal language lib number also will differ - similar to argument to ->LANGUAGE I know that the sentences above are a little hard to read, but I'm too tired right now to manage to explain it any clearer,,,sorry The Corvallis team did most translation of the HP48G messages a long time > ago, I just re-used them. > Why Spanish and not German ? Well, the Spanish market is much bigger than > the German one and the spanish speaking community is also way bigger. > Unfortunately, there was no space for more than 3 languages and at least I > could easily make sure that all the french messages were correct. ==== > 0 ->LANGUAGE please answer here: Does ROM 19-6 already know the elegant french words VOIR, ARBO etc or does it not? Secondly, can the 19-6 ^FilerManager already read the apps menu names via bints from ROM (in which case they appear language-sensitive) or must they still be written by the programmer? ==== .. > please answer here: Does ROM 19-6 already know > the elegant french words VOIR, ARBO etc or No.. this has been added in 1.19-7 > does it not? Secondly, can the 19-6 ^FilerManager > already read the apps menu names via bints from ROM No, this has been added in 1.19-7 Only error messages are language-sensitive in 1.19-6 > (in which case they appear language-sensitive) or > must they still be written by the programmer? They have to be writting by the programmer. Or better, simply change the menu display handler so it will support different language with something like this NAMELESS NewStdLabelDef :: CK&DISPATCH0 grob Grob>Menu str Str>Menu seco Seco>Menu id Id>Menu bint :: ?GetMsg Str>Menu ; THIRTEEN DoTagMenu ; And then when your define your menu, do something like: NAMELESS MyMenu :: NoExitAction ( So it's not saved in LastMenu ) { NullMenuKey NullMenuKey NullMenuKey { [#] CANCL_FMsg ON_Action } { [#] OK_FMsg OK_Action } } ' ' ' NewStdLabelDef ' LabelDef! FOUR ::N ; Hope it helps ==== Was WR referring to the future ROM 1.19-7 ??? > 0 ->LANGUAGE please answer here: Does ROM 19-6 already know > the elegant french words VOIR, ARBO etc or > does it not? Secondly, can the 19-6 ^FilerManager > already read the apps menu names via bints from ROM > (in which case they appear language-sensitive) or > must they still be written by the programmer? ==== > Okay, WR, better rewrite that ROM code for JYA to save 2.5 bytes! John, you probably wouldn't comment it this way if Mika Heiskanen were the ROM-author. But also this greatest master of RPN-programming did not always find the optiomal program. Here an example, the famous UP from his HACK-lib which returns to the correct page of the parents directory. By the way, I wonder that ACO didn't use this UPDIR version which is *obviously much better* than the ordinary UPDIR (excuse with backward compatibility doesn't count) Here Mika's program, 80.5 bytes: :: CKO CONTEXT@ UPDIR CONTEXT@ 2DUPEQ case2DROP LastNonNull (get first object in parents dir) NotcaseDROP MINUSONE UNROT BEGIN (begin search of the just left dir) ROT#1+ROT (in the vars of the parents dir) 2DUPEQ ITE DROPFALSE PrevNonNull NOT_UNTIL DROP (DROP left dir and find correct page) SIX #/ SWAPDROP UNCOERCE %1 %OF (take 1% of the real) % 2.01 %+ (correct page code computed) InitMenu% ; Now my version, 72.5 bytes, 8 bytes saved) :: CKO CONTEXT@ UPDIR CONTEXT@ 2DUPEQ case2DROP LastNonNull (get first object) DROPZERO (parents dir is not empty and I start) UNROT (counting with ZERO, not MINUSONE) BEGIN ROT#1+ROT 2DUPEQ ITE DROPFALSE PrevNonNull NOT_UNTIL DROP#1- (DROP and correct the count) SIX #/ #1+ (enlarge the result somewhat) UNCOERCE %1 %OF %2 %+ InitMenu% DROP ; In addition, I use DROP, not SWAPDROP, which saves time: DROP lasts 0.03_ms, SWAPDROP 0.06_ms, mearure on the HP48 under normal conditions. The essential difference is that I use the pointer %2 instead of the real % 2.01. It should be mentioned that invoking either these or the other makes no difference. Both need 0.05_ms according to Mika's TIM. My UPDIR-version will be a key assignment choice in the mext edition of the 49 Keyman coming out soon. ==== I knew you could do it! Saving 8 bytes per day can mount up to 2922 bytes saved per (average) year, which will save 128K (one whole flash bank) in only 44.857 years! [r->] [OFF] . ==== BUT when LGPL license applies in 2003 in a couple of weeks and everything is compressed into one bank (sans the uncompressor, which takes about 15 banks) PS: OR - we will have several different ROMs, which are all incompatible with each other, including a Greek one (which will be self-incompatible) > I knew you could do it! Saving 8 bytes per day can mount up to 2922 bytes saved > per (average) year, which will save 128K (one whole flash bank) > in only 44.857 years! > [r->] [OFF] ==== > BUT > when LGPL license applies in 2003 > in a couple of weeks and everything is compressed into one bank > (sans the uncompressor, which takes about 15 banks) > PS: OR - we will have several different ROMs, which are all incompatible > with each other, including a Greek one (which will be self-incompatible) ROTFL! Anti-ROM. The only ROM which is able to answer the question about reciprocal-exclusons. Objects that are anything else than themselves. (Has Douglas been in Greece??) > I knew you could do it! Saving 8 bytes per day can mount up to 2922 bytes saved > per (average) year, which will save 128K (one whole flash bank) > in only 44.857 years! > [r->] [OFF] Reply-To: peter@dutw1479.wbmt.tudelft.nl ==== Okay, WR, better rewrite that ROM code for JYA to save 2.5 bytes! John, you probably wouldn't comment it this way if > Mika Heiskanen were the ROM-author. I think you misunderstand; it wasn't a stab at JYA -- ==== > I think you misunderstand; it wasn't a stab at JYA > And I do not take offence whatsoever as the code is generated by the algebraic compiler (pure ML) and this was made by Gerald Squelart :) Sometimes, time is the most important issue, didn't have too much time to optimized UPDIR so it would save 8 bytes and save .05ms ... ==== > Sometimes, time is the most important issue, didn't have too much time to > optimized UPDIR so it would save 8 bytes and save .05ms ... really count. What counts - besides beauty and elegance in programming - is IMHO that the user gets maximal profit from a tool. As you see, it cost only 70 bytes to reprogram UPDIR in such a way that one returns with it always to the menu page you were starting from. I really recommend this for the next ROM. OK, you introduced the new SysRPL-name MYRAMROMPAIR (why not MONRAMROMPAIR ? but it is not very helpful for the above task. Since MYRAMROMPAIR is not documented by CD & EK, here it's stack diagram: rrp -> rrp' TRUE (rrp' = parents dir of rrp) rrp -> FALSE (provided rrp is HOME) ==== Seen: > reprogram UPDIR in such a way that it always returns to the > menu page [containing the label for the current directory] But that's not backward compatible with the HP48, which is of course the most important thing :) And Joe Horn already supplied a little UP program which anyone can use for that purpose, if they wish (and so did I offer another -- in UserRPL of course :) Other users might also possibly *not* want this change, so are we ready to supply an OLDUPDIR program for them? And lastly, look at any My Computer window in any version of that most popular computer OS in the world; when you click the updir tool button in the toolbar, does it go back to (i.e. select, or show a dashed line around) the folder that you just came from? No, of course not! -- it goes all the way back to the very first item in the parent directory, always, so that you can start all over again, scrolling all the way back down again to where you were -- so if this is the way the whole world wants its computers to function (and MS is never wrong in deciding what's good for users :) then why should a mere calculator do things any differently? Bah!, Humbug!, and a Spooky Halloween to everyone! http://www.mum.edu . ==== And lastly, look at any My Computer window in any version > of that most popular computer OS in the world; > when you click the updir tool button in the toolbar, > does it go back to (i.e. select, or show a dashed line around) > the folder that you just came from? No, of course not! -- it goes all the way back to the > very first item in the parent directory, always, > so that you can start all over again, scrolling all the way > back down again to where you were ... Yes and no. Yes, that's the case when you set Windows to use the same window when you open a folder, BUT that's NOT the case if you set Windows to open a *new* window when you open a folder. In that case, you go back to where you were by closing the window, and voila! the folder you clicked on will still be highlighted. Furthermore, you can get the best of both worlds by leaving Windows in use same window mode, BUT any time you want to get back to a folder that you open, open it not by double-clicking it but by right-clicking it and selecting Explore from here. Or just use the DOS Norton Commander, which does UPDIR correctly. If you are condemned to using Windows, use the Windows Norton Commander clone called 2xExplorer, http://netez.com/2xExplorer/ Great stuff! Freeware (voluntary contributions are happily accepted). Try it; you'll love the way it does UPDIR the way God intended, and you'll learn how to open a beer bottle with your socks and other nifty things. -Joe- ==== > But that's not backward compatible with the HP48, > which is of course the most important thing :) to me what a good functionality of UPDIR has to do with backward compatibility? PS. IMHO simulating fast parts of the operating system in UsrRPL seems to be a kind of a useless game ==== > what ... UPDIR has to do with backward compatibility? UPDIR is backward, DOWNDIR is forward :) I'm not quite sure which way Down Under is, however. -[30]- . ==== I thought that you wanted a BACKMENU command which would keep a history of 10 last menus and go back and forth in that history or should be settle for three and use MENUROT ??? > what ... UPDIR has to do with backward compatibility? UPDIR is backward, DOWNDIR is forward :) I'm not quite sure which way Down Under is, however. -[30]- . Reply-To: dominik@_DROP_THIS_science.uva.nl ==== WR> Since MYRAMROMPAIR is not documented by CD & EK, here WR> it's stack diagram: WR> rrp -> rrp' TRUE (rrp' = parents dir of rrp) WR> rrp -> FALSE (provided rrp is HOME) - Carsten ==== Squelch squealing on Squelart for squandering! . ==== > I think you misunderstand; it wasn't a stab at JYA I don't remember to have claimed that. By the way, could you sent me 1. the flashbank 0 of ROM 19-6 (has less than 128 KB), as a BZ-file please, to have a short downloading time with XMODEM. I'll save it port 2, please determmine the name for it. 2. A tool which switches two different flashbanks 0. The one presently used with the other one which should be a backup in port 2. Clearly, the tool should be for the real 49, not for an emulator. If unavoidable, the switching process may last some minutes but should be as short as possible. It may well be that in future the user will have a certain choice not only on the entire ROM but also on a particular flashbank 0. ==== (2) What companies other than HP *ever* made RPN calculators? i got an MK61 and an MK52 (their names sound like a rifle). they are russian. > http://www.rskey.org/mk61.htm http://www.rskey.org/mk52.htm -Joe- > Wow! Where did you get them? Since years and years I am looking for the MK90 or MK98 but in vain. Do you know any shop/man/women/alien/Greek that sells MK calculators? Look: MK90 -> http://www.taswegian.com/MOSCOW/mk-90.html MK98 -> http://www.taswegian.com/MOSCOW/mk-98.html ==== PS. I'm Swedish non Schroder sucker. We do not DUB movies for television, as >Germans/French does ( no offense ). Do you watch many films which help you learn the English required for writing calculator manuals? My hypothesis is that this is due to the american movies and TV ==== Can anyone tell me if it possible to convert programs for the HP 48/49 from Spanish to English? There are several excellent lloking programs available on the hpcalc.org site that are in spanish and I would like to convert them if possible. What would I need to convert them? I know nothing about programing but will try. > Can anyone tell me if it possible to convert programs for the HP 48/49 > from Spanish to English? Well, I'm here for translate what you want, but the programmer work is for you ==== Me again.... I have noticed that there seems to be some dependability on the actual placement of tokens in source code as to whether rplcomp wants to work. I have read through the docs to find an explanation but do not see it yet. If it is explained, just say so. Otherwise could anyone please tell me the requirements for tab/space use in the INCLUDEs, EXTERNALs etc? Also, RPLCOMP.DOC and the associated DOCS file speak of the token 'CODEM ENDCODE' to define the start/end of MASD code. If I use CODEM instead of CODE I get all sorts of unknown instruction errors immediately after the use of the word. Is there a better explanation of how to use MASD syntax with Hptools? It does *not* appear to be compatible with the syntax used on the calculator. Next is a problem likely associated with the first question. Here is a line from my .l file (after sasm -e ) which I cannot figure out: ... 16 exALROMID EQU #4C4 5 17 *|| Resuming file exAL.src at line 3 18 * File exAL.src 4 *** ERROR: Illegal mnemonic *** 19 0000 INCLUDE exAL49ext.h 20 *|| Reading from exAL49ext.h .... It appears that there is something wrong with either my INCLUDE statement for the external declarations file or the external declarations file itself. The file exAL49ext.h merely contains a collection of the following: EXTERNAL foo EXTERNAL bar EXTERNAL blah ..... Is there something wrong with this? In the file exAL.src I have the first line as TITLE blah and a couple of lines later I have two INCLUDE statements for the romid and external declarations file. Following this is an ASSEMBLE statement for the first visible library command. Is this not the correct method? I even used the EXACT format as the GELIB example in MAKEROM.DOC. If anyone wants to see the actual code for my project to help me resolve the plethora of problems I am encountering, please let me know am having I could actually begin writing the library code and make some progress. -Al A. ==== > [..Problems with HPTools..] > I even used the EXACT format as the GELIB example in > MAKEROM.DOC. > So did you try the GELIB example itself? If that doesn't work, you may have a installation error. If it works, maybe your code isn't exactly like the example Since making a library is nearly the worst case, have you tried to compile a single SysRPL program? ==== > I have noticed that there seems to be some dependability on the actual > placement of tokens in source code as to whether rplcomp wants to > work. for RPLCOMP placement of tokens shoud not be an issue, for SASM, it is. For example instruction must not start on the fist collumn. By default, everything after collumn 20 is comment (except if you use SASM with the -c option) > Otherwise could anyone > please tell me the requirements for tab/space use in the INCLUDEs, > EXTERNALs etc? you can put INCLUDE FileName anywhere in the line. same for EXTERNAL the SASM INCLOB function must be tabbulated > Also, RPLCOMP.DOC and the associated DOCS file speak of the token > 'CODEM ENDCODE' to define the start/end of MASD code. If I use > CODEM instead of CODE I get all sorts of unknown instruction errors > immediately after the use of the word. This should normally work provided you do not try to put SASM syntax after a CODEM token. for example: CODEM LC 01000 { OUT=C C-1.A UPNC } RPL ENDCODE should compile properly. > It does *not* appear to be > compatible with the syntax used on the calculator. It is 99% compatible. Some of the differences involve expressions and some macros. > declarations file itself. The file exAL49ext.h merely contains a > collection of the following: EXTERNAL foo > EXTERNAL bar > EXTERNAL blah can you check that the file ends with a carage return? Also, are you sure of the mode used at the end of your incliuded file? For example, if you incluide a file and that the file switch ni ASSEMBLE mode, you will still be in assemble mode after the include. This can cause lots of problems ==== try this link http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3937 > I recently bought a used HP48G but it didn't come with the user's manual. Is it possible to find a user manual online or a downloadable manual? ==== Is there a way to translate a hp49G program from Spanish to English? I know nothing about programing but there apprears to be several great civil programs on hpcalc.org that I would like to try but they are in Spanish. Several attempts to contact the programmer have be returned undeliverable. Dan ==== I remember years ago Digitalis sold some hp4x that had a double speed module. I went to digitalis.de and I coulnt find anything about it. Is it still sold? Can I make one? ==== www.cynox.de still has it, but it only gives you 4MHz => 5MHz > I remember years ago Digitalis sold some hp4x that had a double speed > module. I went to digitalis.de and I coulnt find anything about it. Is it still sold? Can I make one? > ==== Could I change the 32KHz quartz to a 64KHz one without friying the hp? ==== >Could I change the 32KHz quartz to a 64KHz one without friying the hp? My HP 48SX works this way now for many years. Look somewhere here: http://www.ruhr.de/home/criseis/index.html Olaf -- D.i.e.s.S. (K.) ==== As the HP 48SX standard clock is only 2MHz, the double speed of 4MHz is possible. The HP 48G/49G uses a 4MHz clock, which can be overclocked to 5MHz. It is not possible to overclock the Saturn CPU to 8MHz (without liquid Nitrogen cooling :). Just to clarify. >Could I change the 32KHz quartz to a 64KHz one without friying the hp? My HP 48SX works this way now for many years. Look somewhere here: http://www.ruhr.de/home/criseis/index.html Olaf > -- > D.i.e.s.S. (K.) ==== So you mean that if I change the quartz from 32KHz to 40KHz I will be able to run it to 5Mhz? What are the ICs? I dont know very much about electronics... Howcome Olaf«s works right with the 62Khz? Because SX is half of G? By the way, Olaf, I dont know german.... (except for Whiskey) > As the HP 48SX standard clock is only 2MHz, the double speed of 4MHz is > possible. > The HP 48G/49G uses a 4MHz clock, which can be overclocked to 5MHz. > It is not possible to overclock the Saturn CPU to 8MHz (without liquid > Nitrogen cooling :). > Just to clarify. > >Could I change the 32KHz quartz to a 64KHz one without friying the hp? My HP 48SX works this way now for many years. Look somewhere here: http://www.ruhr.de/home/criseis/index.html Olaf > -- > D.i.e.s.S. (K.) ==== >So you mean that if I change the quartz from 32KHz to 40KHz I will be >able to run it to 5Mhz? What are the ICs? I dont know very much about >electronics... When you do this you can't use the clock anymore. But who needs a clock. But you also can't use the RS232. This is the reason why I can switch back to the old clock. You need it for the RS232! You can use my shematic for this because I did not use a 64khz xtal. (you can not buy this!) I use a RC-combiantion for this frequency and you can change this for 40kHz >Howcome Olaf«s works right with the 62Khz? Because SX is half of G? By The SX works normal with 2Mhz. Mine is running now for years with 4Mhz without a problem. A SX at 40Mhz feels faster than a GX because the operating system is faster. >the way, Olaf, I dont know german.... (except for Whiskey) Really? I know German, but I did not know anything about German Whiskey. :-] But the picture at this page: http://www.ruhr.de/home/criseis/hp48/hp48a.html is in english. .-) And you need irish whiskey. I would not try this with German beer. Olaf -- D.i.e.s.S. (K.) ==== X > The SX works normal with 2Mhz. Mine is running now for years with 4Mhz > without a problem. A SX at 40Mhz feels faster than a GX because the > operating system is faster. Wow! A SX at 40MHz !!! How did you do it!! Helium Cooling system??? PS: I warn against any HW manipulations of any quartz systems on the 49G www.cynox.de does it right, don't this at home (unless U know what U are... ==== Josu schrieb: > So you mean that if I change the quartz from 32KHz to 40KHz I will be > able to run it to 5Mhz? What are the ICs? I dont know very much about > electronics... Howcome Olaf«s works right with the 62Khz? Because SX is half of G? By > the way, Olaf, I dont know german.... (except for Whiskey) As the HP 48SX standard clock is only 2MHz, the double speed of 4MHz is > possible. > The HP 48G/49G uses a 4MHz clock, which can be overclocked to 5MHz. > It is not possible to overclock the Saturn CPU to 8MHz (without liquid > Nitrogen cooling :). > Just to clarify. > >Could I change the 32KHz quartz to a 64KHz one without friying the hp? My HP 48SX works this way now for many years. Look somewhere here: http://www.ruhr.de/home/criseis/index.html Olaf > -- > D.i.e.s.S. (K.) ==== No, it doesn't work. I tried it allready. When you change only the quartz, then the CPU will be perhaps faster. But the display ICs use the same signal from the quartz and they didn't work with a higher speed. Josu schrieb: > Could I change the 32KHz quartz to a 64KHz one without friying the hp? ==== Seen: > [40-byte SysRPL version of VARS] > is not particularly fast for long Varset Timings here: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=64knj9%24123%241%40news.iastate.edu ------------- ----- ----- 98 variables: 6.6 seconds .328 .281 191 variables: 28.2 seconds .661 .567 [~N^2 !] [~N] That was 50 times as fast as the 48G for about 200 variables, and at well under one second, it was good enough for me! And on my 48G, the small size was important; a 171-byte ML program to shave a very small amount from this timing would not, to all users, be worth the memory used, but fortunately, due to the posting of various alternative approaches to various tasks, readers who do not care to roll their own can at least have a wide range of choice, to match against their own goals. -[]- ==== There's a current (rather long)thread on implicit differentiation, so here's yet one more program. It's simple enough and runs on the HP48 and 49. It was originally sent to me by Tom Hunt, who doesn't seem to post here much any more. I call it IMDIF. It requires an expression in X and Y. For the HP48, replace Simplify with ASIM if you have ALG48, or use EXCO, or just omit it. %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); << -2 CF DUP 'X' .d SWAP 'Y' .d NEG / SIMPLIFY -2 SF > Bill ==== When I try to store an object or formula writen in equation writer or command menu hp49g won't let me to store it (I do it in algebraic mode). Steps: 1. Write formula in equation writer 2. Press ENTER once or twice 3. Press STO> key 4. Enter name 5. Press ENTER After pressing ENTER error message appears ANS Error :Too few arguments If in step 2. press ENTER twice hp49 do some calculus on my formula and store it as different variable. For exampe: formula x+y=1 it stores as x-4071.545=1 and only if I set approx. mode on, if not an error message appear. What I was doing wrong? Sorry for bad english! Kruno. ==== kruno escribi.97 en el mensaje > When I try to store an object or formula writen in equation writer or > command menu... It seems you have something stored with the name Y. ==== When loading programs to the HP48GX, how do know how much to store in a port and when should you selecte a different port to use? Also, does merging the slot one card always cause problems running programs stored in slot2? TIA ==== > When loading programs to the HP48GX, > how do know how much to store in a port > and when should you select a different port to use? A famous, non-trivial problem (knapsack problem?) If all these ports are in slot 2, it makes no difference in execution, timing or efficiency which port any object is in; your arrangement only affects how fully you can pack your card. If you put one 10-byte object in each port, however, then there's no room for any 128K object anywhere :) > Also, does merging the slot one card > always cause problems running programs stored in slot2? I think only if they wouldn't have worked in slot 2 anyway; some libraries have to be stored in port 1 or port 0 to work properly (or even not to hang or crash), and hopefully their authors have so indicated (but not always, e.g. the HP stopwatch library/ies). But let's check something -- you're not plugging in any card larger than 128K into slot 1, right? Did you run out of user memory already? If you are swimming in more memory than you know what to do with, then unmerge your memory: { } FREE1 -- then store libraries there which can only work in ports 1 or 0 (uncovered ports); objects in port 1 are safer against memory wipeouts than they would be in a merged port 0; you also can not protect card contents using a read-only switch if your card is used for merged memory. Too much free (merged) memory also hits you with long pauses for garbage collection (unless you pay off the collector :) http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DAA0601.31A54958%40miu.edu PT109 http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/jfk-manofsea-2.html . ==== Great! thanks guys...so, since I'm useing a 128k in slot 1 & 1 meg in slot 2, I sould not have a problem merging slot 01 for more active ram and run everything that's loaded in ports 2 thru 9. ( providing the neccessary libraries are also loaded in the same ports as their respective programs ). Then to keep different programs from trying to use possible libraries with a same namae, I can make diffeent directories.?..sounds like a plan. ==== > since I'm using a 128k in slot 1 & 1 meg in slot 2, > I should not have a problem merging slot 1 for more active ram Unlike in a PC, More active RAM than you really need for one thing at a time in the HP48 is more wasteful than useful, and in fact it will even annoy you by freezing much longer for GC; I would wait until I first got an Insufficient Memory error before I ever worried about not having enough RAM. > and run everything that's loaded in ports 2 thru 9. > (provided the necessary libraries are also loaded > in the same ports as their respective programs) I no grok; ports are where libraries *must* be stored, and where backups *may* be stored, but other programs don't run from ports. Think of a port as a garage or off-site storage; it's where you put things that are *not* in use, which in fact must be brought back into your main living area (i.e. copied back to user memory) before you can do anything with them. > to keep different programs from trying to use possible > libraries with a same name, I can make different directories? Libraries are sets of commands which augment the built-in commands; even the built-in commands live in libraries, but those are stashed in ROM, while the libraries which you download yourself must be stashed in a port, where the calc recognizes them and adds them to its catalog of commands. It is possible to attach a library to any directory, which means that its commands are recognized only when you use that particular directory, but most libraries attach themselves to HOME, so that you can always use their commands at any time. It's generally a good idea to avoid naming any of your own programs with the same name as any built-in or library command; in fact, it will be difficult to do this accidentally (you'll get an Invalid Syntax error), unless you install and attach the library after you've already stored your own program, in which case the name will continue to invoke your own program, instead of the same-named new library command. It's also a good idea for library authors not to duplicate each other's command names in different libraries, but one is not always so lucky: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DAF4DF7.56792CF2%40miu.edu A library as a whole doesn't itself have a name; it instead is stored in a port using its library *number* -- needless to say, it's also not a good idea for different libraries to have the same number, but in this world there are often cases where different people want to claim the same territory, and they just go on fighting over it until one of them gives up and leaves. > ..sounds like a plan. A man + a plan + a canal = Panama! A Dan + a clan + a canal = Canada! A man + a pain + a mania = Panama! Able was I ere I saw Elba A dum reb was I ere I saw Bermuda More palindromic mania: http://www.palindromes.org http://www.growndodo.com/wordplay/palindromes http://www.floot.demon.co.uk/palindromes.html [math!] MOM IS 51 WOW Saippuakauppias. Engage le jeu que je le gagne. Do Good's deeds live on? No, Evil's deeds do, O God. . <3DC0D469.D82D1E42@miu.edu> ==== In message <3DC0D469.D82D1E42@miu.edu>, John H Meyers >More palindromic mania: [Snip] For those really interested then there is a book of palindromes available called, unsurprisingly, I Love Me Vol I -- ==== Time flies like wind. Fruit flies like bananas ... sorry, I felt an irresistible urge to say that. Toby > ..sounds like a plan. A man + a plan + a canal = Panama! > A Dan + a clan + a canal = Canada! > A man + a pain + a mania = Panama! Able was I ere I saw Elba > A dum reb was I ere I saw Bermuda More palindromic mania: > http://www.palindromes.org > http://www.growndodo.com/wordplay/palindromes > http://www.floot.demon.co.uk/palindromes.html [math!] MOM IS 51 WOW Saippuakauppias. Engage le jeu que je le gagne. Do Good's deeds live on? No, Evil's deeds do, O God. . ==== > Great! thanks guys...so, since I'm useing a 128k in slot 1 & 1 meg in > slot 2, I sould not have a problem merging slot 01 for more active ram Docs: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/apps/mk/mk230pdf.zip ==== > When loading programs to the HP48GX, > how do know how much to store in a port > and when should you select a different port to use? A famous, non-trivial problem (knapsack problem?) If all these ports are in slot 2, it makes no difference in execution, timing or efficiency which port any object is in; your arrangement only affects how fully you can pack your card. If you put one 10-byte object in each port, however, then there's no room for any 128K object anywhere :) > Also, does merging the slot one card > always cause problems running programs stored in slot2? I think only if they wouldn't have worked in slot 2 anyway; some libraries have to be stored in port 1 or port 0 to work properly (or even not to hang or crash), and hopefully their authors have so indicated (but not always, e.g. the HP stopwatch library/ies). But let's check something -- you're not plugging in any card larger than 128K into slot 1, right? Did you run out of user memory already? If you are swimming in more memory than you know what to do with, then unmerge your memory: { } FREE1 -- then store libraries there which can only work in ports 1 or 0 (uncovered ports); objects in port 1 are safer against memory wipeouts than they would be in a merged port 0; you also can not protect card contents using a read-only switch if your card is used for merged memory. Too much free (merged) memory also hits you with long pauses for garbage collection (unless you pay off the collector :) http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DAA0601.31A54958%40miu.edu PT109 http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/jfk-manofsea-2.html . ==== > When loading programs to the HP48GX, how do know how much to store in > a port and when should you selecte a different port to use? Also, does > merging the slot one card always cause problems running programs > stored in slot2? TIA You might want to use the command PVARS which takes the number of the port from the stack and returns the variables stored in that port and the available memory of the port in bytes. ==== I am using the INFORM command. The solution to my problem comes out to be 1.3456...E-2. INFORM shows the solution on the screen to be 1.3456, it's necessary to press EDIT to see the scientific part How can I get INFORM to output the result in fixed notation ? ==== > I am using the INFORM command. > The solution to my problem comes out to be 1.3456...E-2. > INFORM shows the solution on the screen to be 1.3456, > it's necessary to press EDIT to see the scientific part > How can I get INFORM to output the result in fixed notation ? First let's just try a longer field: You can make all screen fields long (1 column, max. 4 fields per page), or you can make selected fields long, e.g.: My INFORM { Long: { } Fld1: Fld2: } { 2 1 } { 1.23456789012E-2 1.234567 2.3456789 } DUP INFORM To get fixed notation, you could convert output to a string (and allow string input as well) -- more programming, however. An output-only screen could also be formatted using the DISP[XY] command(s), graphics and SCROLL commands, or maybe to a printer :) [r->] [OFF] . ==== > I am using the INFORM command. > The solution to my problem comes out to be 1.3456...E-2. > INFORM shows the solution on the screen to be 1.3456, it's necessary > to press EDIT to see the scientific part No, you can dicrease the number of columns in the format list of INFORM. For example, if the format list is {1. 2.}, the INFORM screen will show two columns of input fields, making the available pixels for every field less. But if you use {1. 1.} then there will be one column and so the fields will be wider. Unfortunately even if you have fix mode on, the numbers in the fields of INFORM are always shown in standard format. > How can I get INFORM to output the result in fixed notation ? Just set fixed mode on. For example if you do 4. FIX prior to INFORM, then the numbers in the fields will be shown in standard format but nonetheless returned in the specified fixed format. ==== > Does the 49 have a rectangular to polar conversion command? > Or do you convert to polar by going to [the mode menu] > and setting it to polar? In your case, what you are asking for is a way to simply input rectangular coordinates and see the result in polar form. You've already seen how to do that, by simply doing one CYLIN or SPHERE command to instruct the screen painter to show all complex numbers in polar format, then every time you enter a complex number in (x y) form, it automaticaly appears in polar form on the display, voila! Other people ask why there are no P<->R conversion commands in the HP48/49 calculator series, thinking that HP somehow goofed by leaving out commands that used to be found in old calculators. The answer to this latter gripe is that all such conversions are automatically built-in; whenever you enter a related pair of input values which are polar coordinates to begin with, you just type an angle symbol <) between them, and the calculator automatically converts to an internal object having the proper internal coordinates. Conversely, whenever an internal object is displayed, there is an automatic conversion, if necessary, to the display format in which you want to see it, which you can choose via a command (RECT, CYLIN, or SPHERE); when you type a new display command, everything shown in the display changes to the desired display format (and keeps displaying that same way), although the internal object itself never changes at all. Note that input conversion, if any, is determined solely by syntax (the presence or absence of an angle symbol before each value which represents an angle), while output display conversion is determined independently by commands which set a persistent choice of display style. Therefore, to convert coordinates, as you requested, you merely enter data in the syntax appropriate to its type (with or without angle symbols), and let the same data be redisplayed automatically in the desired output style. If you don't very often use the infinity function above the zero key on the 49G, you can make it a more convenient angle symbol key instead, by performing 128 CHR 102.2 ASN just once to set it up (be sure also to turn on USER mode); the HP48, of course, already had this character on its keyboard, right next to pi. The older calculators had P<->R conversion commands, each requiring two separate input values and returning two separate output values, because in the first place their registers (including stack registers) each held only one fixed-size kind of object (real number), and in addition, because there was no parser/compiler to read typed text and automatically build composite internal objects, nor was there any decompiler/displayer to interpret composite internal objects and automatically display them in various formats. If you really want pairs of separate input and output values to be converted, however, exactly like the old P<->R commands, these HP48/49 commands are of use: V-> splits an object (complex, 2D vector, or 3D vector) into the separate component values which would be displayed in the current display mode (RECT, CYLIN, or SPHERE); for the latter two modes, this is just like an R->P command. Conversely, ->V2 and ->V3 take two or three separate stack values and build from them a single internal object (set flag -19 for ->V2 to create complex numbers, otherwise it creates vectors), interpreting the coordinates according to those same display modes; for the latter modes, again, this is just like a P->R command. To make the good old original P<->R commands out of these, where each command takes two separate input values and returns two separate output values to the stack: P->R: << -16. SF ->V2 -16. CF V-> > R->P: << -16. CF ->V2 -16. SF V-> > To preserve the original flag state, if desired, insert RCLF UNROT at the beginning and ROT STOF at end (on the HP48 use ROT ROT in place of UNROT). Other commonly requested simple functions: RAD angle mode toggle (already provided on 48G keyboards): << -17. DUP IF FS? THEN CF ELSE SF END > POLAR display mode toggle (already provided on 48G keyboards): << -16. DUP IF FS? THEN CF ELSE SF END > You can name these whatever you'd like (except RAD and POLAR, which are already built-in command names for something else :) and then assign those quoted names to any keyboard locations, or just type their names to invoke them. Oh dear, it looks as if this isn't the first time that this same topic has come up; maybe next time I'll remember, and stop answering this same question again :) http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D9972A6.89F3CFB6%40miu.edu [r->] [OFF] . ==== Does the 49 have a rectangular to polar conversion command? Or do you > convert to polar by going to mode and setting it to polar? Is there a > shortcut to do this? This newsgroup is great - it sure makes up for the terrible 49 Chris The absence of this conversion haunted me because the process was two quick keystrokes on the 48S. complex display. Because it was short and easy to write, 'tRP' became it's name. << -16 IF FS? THEN -16 CF ELSE -16 SF END > This single softkey 'tRP' toggles the display between Rectangular and Polar representation. Easy enough to create........and remember. ==== X > complex display. Because it was short and easy to write, 'tRP' became > it's name. << -16 IF FS? THEN -16 CF ELSE -16 SF END This single softkey 'tRP' toggles the display between Rectangular and > Polar representation. Easy enough to create........and remember. If you have not set the angle mode to spherical it will work. This is shorter: << -16 DUP FS? :: CF :: SF IFTE > ==== Seen: under numerous domain names); then Google evidently decided to shed the bother and expense However, can't anyone use similar free web accounts for Google setup, to end up with pretty much the same thing? me mycorp com however, and deleting some spam is no big deal for me; I find it much harder, in fact, to delete spam One of the curious sources of spam keeps sending empty-content messages signed by people who have in the past posted to this newsgroup -- since it all comes from Earthlink, and I know only one person who uses Earthlink, one filter now tosses all of that directly into my trash, without even passing go ;) -[]- . ==== One of the curious sources of spam keeps sending empty-content > messages signed by people who have in the past posted to this > newsgroup -- since it all comes from Earthlink, and I know > only one person who uses Earthlink, one filter now tosses > all of that directly into my trash, without even passing go ;) Uh oh... would that be me by any chance? JPS.NET was bought by Earthlink many moons ago, so I'm actually an Earthlink user. In any case, I agree with you; it takes less time to delete spam than it does to prevent it. For me, anyhow. YMMV. -Joe- joehorn@jps.net ==== > However, can't anyone use similar free web accounts for Google setup, > to end up with pretty much the same thing? me mycorp com That's a good idea. The problem is that most of the time people simply hit the reply button and don't bother to read the post entirely. So at the end you end-up never reading the message. who either wants to increase the size of my reproductive appendice, or wants me to loose weight (so only bones will remain).. Very annoying ==== the last paragraph! Funny stuff. Hehehe.... -Al > ... > That's a good idea. The problem is that most of the time people simply hit > the reply button and don't bother to read the post entirely. So at the end > you end-up never reading the message. who either wants to increase the size of my reproductive appendice, or wants > me to loose weight (so only bones will remain).. Very annoying > -- It aint what ya don't know but what ya know that aint so that can get you in trouble. - P. Thomas ==== > On a positive note, I will soon be rich, as I gave someone in Nigeria all my > bank account information, and there will be millions of dollars in it in no > time... > You too ? Does that mean we will have to share the millions ? ==== I sold the deal to the Russian Mafia and they are not going to share it and they are definitely going to get that money from the poor Nigerians. On a positive note, I will soon be rich, as I gave someone in Nigeria all > my > bank account information, and there will be millions of dollars in it in > no > time... > You too ? Does that mean we will have to share the millions ? > ==== The query was: > when I Put the vector [15. 14.] (in rectangular mode) > and change to cylindrical mode, > the vector is only shown on one line. > [20.5182845287 < .75... > How can I view this on several lines? Note that flags -98 and -97 take effect only after pressing TOOL and then the VIEW menu key (which in turn performs DUP SCROLL); the normal stack display doesn't change. On the other hand, assuming flag -52 is clear (the default): Try OBJ-> DROP R->C Or -19 SF V-> ->V2 Or get an HP48! This is the much nicer display on 48 (on screen or in edit line): [ 20.5182845287 <)46.9749340109 ] [r->] [OFF] . ==== If you recall a library on the stack and try to BZ49 it the screen goes blank and the indicators start blinking in what seems to be Morse code for 'you suck'. -- Al. Andreou http://nemesis.ee.teiath.gr/~ee4299/ ==== > If you recall a library on the stack and try to BZ49 it the > screen goes blank and the indicators start blinking in what > seems to be Morse code for 'you suck'. that's perfectly normal, that's what happen when you're compressing a library with BZ49. Just wait for the screen to turn on again and show the compressed object ==== Example: The welknown recurrence of type a(n)=r*a(n-1)+p with a(0)=a0 (example of the TI manuals - don't shoot, I try to make that plottable on the HP49G ). This sequence can be converted to an analytic closed form, but let's follow the example for r=0.667 , p=50 , a0=100 . What about the algebraic object: 'IFTE(n<=0,STORE(100.,a0),STORE(0.667*a0+50.,a0))' If we store that in EQ, and set H-View from 0 to 10, V-View from 0 to 300, independend variable to n, step to 1 (user unit) and try to plot, then it doesn't plot correctly *But* if we QUOTE the ELSE-part: 'IFTE(n<=0,STORE(100.,a0),QUOTE(STORE(0.667*a0+50.,a0)))' then...it gets plotted just fine! So here you are a plottable algebraic for the Fibonacci sequence: 'IFTE(n<1,STORE(0.,F0),IFTE(n<2.,STORE(1.,F1),QUOTE(STORE(F0+STORE(F1,F0),F1 ))))' Nick. ==== Is the port done? How is it going? It would be great news to hear such thing! ==== I've just installed the meta kernel on my HP48GX. I works great! Though I prefer a 4-line stack. Is there an option to change it from 5 lines to 4? ==== I've just installed the meta kernel on my HP48GX. I works great! Glad you like it... > Though I prefer a 4-line stack. Is there an option to change it from 5 > lines to 4? No, you can't. The maximum size of a font is 8 pixels hight, not 10 like the standard stack. But you'll get used to the new stack pretty quickly ==== > No, you can't. The maximum size of a font is 8 pixels hight, not 10 like the > standard stack. But you'll get used to the new stack pretty quickly ... yeah, until you reach 40 years old, after which you will inevitably get presbyopia and yearn for a 4-level stack again... or even 3 levels with nice the BLIND library but it is a 2-level stack with characters that are merely the regular ones doubled in height and width. Oh how I wish somebody would write a 3-level stack with its own custom BIG BOLD font..... And how come nobody has ever written a stack replacement of ANY size that eliminates those stupid stack level numbers? We don't need no stinkin' level numbers! Look how much display real estate they waste! Like 14% of the display is wasted on 'em! Hey, know what would be cool? Eliminate the level numbers (and colons and trailing space) from the 49G's stack, but instead give the even-numbered stack levels a faint gray background (should be easy since the 49G already has greyscale support built in!) the way many tables have bars of color to help delimit the rows, e.g. http://holyjoe.org/hhc2001/conflist.htm Would the grey background make the display harder to read and thereby counteract the benefit of a more readable stack? Yes. But I'd STILL rather have a bold 3-level stack with no level numbers and a faint gray background on level 2, than the geriatrically-insensitive microscopic 5-level stack we have now. -Joe- can't hear me anyway! Ha ha ha!!! :-b ==== > We don't need no stinkin' level numbers! Until you display objects like: :: 2.22222222222 3.33333333333 ; :: Hey, anybody got a light? ; << FIRST.. PROGRAM? << SECOND. PROGRAM? << THIRD.. PROGRAM? << FOURTH. PROGRAM? << FIFTH.. PROGRAM? << AND MANY MANY MORE? > > > > > > In Alg mode, at least you can say that you've got numberless numbers ;) Happy single-step debugging... OVER? PICK3? SWAP? ROT? [r->] [OFF] . ==== Yeah! BUT what about doubling the font sizes (including the body eg. bold, but using BOLD would make them really bold that is: not a single digit, but double digit ink on those letters) 6*4 mini => 12*8 MINI 6*6, 7*6, 8*6 => 12*12, 14*12, 16*12 respectively I'm getting old, too. About three weeks ago I lost four inches on my near-sight and I can't read the micro text on notes=money anymore > Happy single-step debugging... OVER? PICK3? SWAP? ROT? ==== Wingman escribi.97 en el mensaje I've just installed the meta kernel on my HP48GX. I works great! > Though I prefer a 4-line stack. Is there an option to change it from 5 > lines to 4? > I think is no possible and I prefrer the 6 line stack using font 7. ==== Dear All, I have a Word document and its PDF equivalent that were produced by someone else and sent to me. Parts of the document use the HP48GOS3.TTF font from hpcalc.org. We both have the same font installed, but when I print to Distiller[1] and view the resulting PDF, all spaces come out as hollow rectangles. When I view the PDF that was sent to me with the original, spaces come out as spaces. Can anyone suggest a reason why and what do I do to fix it? What really puzzles me is that if the font can't be embedded then Acrobat has to be using the version installed on my machine both times, so why the difference? If it helps, the spaces as rectangles behaviour also appears in Windows. For example, if I double-click the font in the Fonts control panel, then the sample text has rectangles instead of spaces. Finally, this strange behaviour only happens with the HP48GOS3 font. The others all display fine so I don't believe it is a specific problem with the font - it has to be something that's screwed-up on my machine but I've run out of places to look and things to try. This message has been posted to comp.fonts as well - I thought that I'd try here in case someone else has had the same problem trying to document their code. Help! [1] Acrobat Distiller 5.05 on Win2K Professional -- ==== I thought about doing the garbaging collection in the STARTOFF var, and setting the TOFF var to something like 15 seconds (somebody said in a previous post that it's better/faster if the GC is done often). Despite the fact that my calc won't auto-off again, is there anything wrong about doing this? I mean, could a GC inside a program mess with something? my STARTOFF var: :: GARBAGE ; @ Andr.8e Pinto ==== > I thought about doing the garbaging collection in the STARTOFF var, > and setting the TOFF var to something like 15 seconds (somebody said > in a previous post that it's better/faster if the GC is done often). Nothing wrong about that, it will work just fine. However, you may want to put a longer delay. For example, if you're browsing the CATALOG, where normally no garbage will occur, with your system it will. And as you have over 1000 elements on the stack at that time, it will be awfully slow ==== I thought about doing the garbaging collection in the STARTOFF var, > and setting the TOFF var to something like 15 seconds (somebody said > in a previous post that it's better/faster if the GC is done often). Nothing wrong about that, it will work just fine. > However, you may want to put a longer delay. > For example, if you're browsing the CATALOG, where normally no garbage will > occur, with your system it will. And as you have over 1000 elements on the > stack at that time, it will be awfully slow > I guess i'll put the command to turn off the calc after the GC and set TOFF to 1~3 min, so i get both features. Andr.8e Pinto ==== BUT - with the new 1.19-7 GC ala JYA, it's fast - right? I thought about doing the garbaging collection in the STARTOFF var, > and setting the TOFF var to something like 15 seconds (somebody said > in a previous post that it's better/faster if the GC is done often). Nothing wrong about that, it will work just fine. > However, you may want to put a longer delay. > For example, if you're browsing the CATALOG, where normally no garbage will > occur, with your system it will. And as you have over 1000 elements on the > stack at that time, it will be awfully slow > ==== > BUT - with the new 1.19-7 GC ala JYA, it's fast - right? Not in this case. The determining factor here is the stack that contains (about) a 1000 elements every single stack entry. And BTW, the catalog entries are stored in TEMPOB in a special way to speed up gc (try decomposing a 1000-element list on the stack and pressing 'MEM' - make sure the elements are not ROM objects like 1. and 2. and so - and make sure you have fresh batteries .. A gc while viewing the catalog takes about 10 secs. Werner ==== To all those who prefer UserRPL: << MEM DROP > Veli-Pekka > I thought about doing the garbaging collection in the STARTOFF var, > and setting the TOFF var to something like 15 seconds (somebody said > in a previous post that it's better/faster if the GC is done often). > Despite the fact that my calc won't auto-off again, is there anything > wrong about doing this? I mean, could a GC inside a program mess with > something? my STARTOFF var: > :: > GARBAGE > ; > @ Andr.8e Pinto ==== I always use the usr mode on my hp49g. The problem is that when the usr mode is on I can't use the HIST key to get i.e something from the stack when I am editing an equation im EQW(Equation writer). But as soon as a set the usr mode off I can use the key HIST. I have the same problem when I am in PRG mode(i.e I edit a list) and I want to use the key HIST to call the echo command. I don't no what this problem depend on. Dima. ==== 41. DELKEYS Veli-Pekka > I always use the usr mode on my hp49g. The problem is that when the > usr mode is on I can't use the HIST key to get i.e something from the > stack when I am editing an equation im EQW(Equation writer). > But as soon as a set the usr mode off I can use the key HIST. I have the same problem when I am in PRG mode(i.e I edit a list) and I > want to use the key HIST to call the echo command. I don't no what this problem depend on. > Dima. ==== > 41. DELKEYS > Veli-Pekka I always use the usr mode on my hp49g. The problem is that when the > usr mode is on I can't use the HIST key to get i.e something from the > stack when I am editing an equation im EQW(Equation writer). > But as soon as a set the usr mode off I can use the key HIST. I have the same problem when I am in PRG mode(i.e I edit a list) and I > want to use the key HIST to call the echo command. I don't no what this problem depend on. > Dima. Salut VNP, It's working perfect now. I have propabily forgot that a set this key. I was looking for a solution since more than 4 weeks. english) ==== > 41. DELKEYS > Veli-Pekka X > Salut VNP, What's VNP ??? > It's working perfect now. I have propabily forgot that a set this key. > I was looking for a solution since more than 4 weeks. > english) sil-vouz-plait (or something...) excuse moi bad englais - er -no monsieur, bad francois ==== Can anyone tell me the command that I can use to decompose a two dimensional array into its individual columns. I have been using the ->COL in user RPL but I need the System RPL command also. (http://www.grisoft.com). ==== FPTR 3 67 > Can anyone tell me the command that I can use to decompose a two dimensional > array into its individual columns. I have been using the ->COL in user RPL > but I need the System RPL command also. > > --- > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ==== With Nick posting his marathons, I decided that I could be educational as well. So I will be a copy cat and post Calculus teaching aids with the 49 and , with the focus primarily on the 49. I hope this may be of some use to students in Calculus who may be stuck or need help with its complicated areas of understanding. Aaron Math: It's all relative. ==== > With Nick posting his marathons, I decided that I could be educational as > well. So I will be a copy cat and post Calculus teaching aids with the 49 > and TI89, with the focus primarily on the 49. I hope this may be of some > use to students in Calculus who may be stuck or need help with its > complicated areas of understanding. Aaron Math: It's all relative. Excellent idea! A thousend thanks and looking forward to reading the teaching aids. ==== Is there any way to turn off the softkey menu so that the editor can have the full screen? Flag -96 is supposed to do this, but the flag docs from hpcalc warn of *dire* consequences if you use it. In the interest of science and the members of comp.sys.hp48, I made out my will, sent all the children out of the house (funny, I don't Nothing happened. ==== > Is there any way to turn off the softkey menu so that the editor can > have the full screen? Flag -96 is supposed to do this, but the flag > docs from hpcalc warn of *dire* consequences if you use it. In the interest of science and the members of comp.sys.hp48, I made > out my will, sent all the children out of the house (funny, I don't Nothing happened. > Was that experimentally implemented feature perhaps fully removed from the current ROM? Anyway, congratulations on your survival. But don't take that too far in future.. ==== The first of teaching aids for Calculus with the HP-49G and the TI-89. This topic will cover the Newton-Raphson recursive algorithm, commonly known as Newton's Method. Given the fact that we alredy know how to calculate derivatives and find the equations of tangent lines to curves at a given point, we will move on. To set the stage for a problem, suppose a used car dealer offers to sell you a car for $18,000 or for payments of $375 per month for five years. You would like to know what monthly interest rate the dealer is, in effect, charging you. To find the answer, you have to solve the equation (for our time here we will not discuss how we come up with the equation. Accept it right now for no better reason than authority): 48x(1+x)^60 - (1+x)^60 + 1 = 0 How would you approach solving it? (Note for a quadratic ax^2 + bx +c = 0, there is a well known formula to find the roots called the quadratic equation, 3rd and 4th degree equations get much more complicated and there are formulas to find the roots there, but if f(x) is a polynomial of degree 5 or higher, there is no such formula to find exact roots.) We could graph the function in our HP-49 or TI-89, set the viewing rectangle to x->{0,.012} y->{-.05,.15}, and then use the trace function to approximate the root between .007 and .008. Zooming in repeatedly, we could find correct to nine decimal places that the root is .007628603. But this is tiresome, redundant, and takes a great deal of time. We could use the Solve( ) command in our calculators to find the approx solution as well. But how does the calulator find the root? They use a variety of methods, but the most commonly used method is Newton's Method. Now what is Newton's Method? Lets discuss it detail: Suppose you have a curve that has a root R and suppose R is not known. To find R, we take a known value close to R and call it x1. Then we locate the y-value on the curve so that we have a point (x1, f(x1)). Then calculate the tangent line at that point and sketch it such that the tangent line crosses the x axis. That root where the tangent line crossed we will call x2. Then find the y-value of x2 and repeat the process. What you will find is in effect x2, x3, etc will get closer and closer to your R root (there are cases where this will fail, we will discuss these later). In fact, you only need to find about x5 or x6 to be correct to 6-8 decimal places! To find a formula for x2 in terms of x1, we use the fact that the slope of L is f'9x10, so its equation is: y - f(x1) = f'(x1)*(x-x1); where f'(x1) is the derivative of f(x1). Since the x-intercept of L is x2, we set y=0 and obtain; 0 - f(x1) = f'(x1)*(x2-x1). If f'(x1) != (does not equal) 0, we can solve this equation for x2: x2 = x1 - f(x1) / f'(x1) We use x2 as a second approximation to R: x3 = x2 - f(x2) / f'(x2) If we keep repeating this process, we obtain a sequence of approximations x1,x2,x3,x4,....... In general, if the nth approximation is xn and f'(xn) != 0, then the next approximation is given by: xn+1 = xn - f(xn) / f'(xn). If the numbers xn become closer and closer to R as n becomes large, then we say that the sequence converges to R and we write: lim xn = R n->oo Although the sequence fo successive approximations converges to the desired root for some functions, in other circumstances the sequence may not converge. This is likely to be the case when f'(x1) is close to 0. It might even happen that an approximation falls outside the domain of f. THEN NEWTONS METHOD FAILS AND A BETTER INITIAL APPROXIMATION X1 SHOULD BE CHOSEN. Now how would you use this with the HP-49 or the TI-89? Well, each calculator goes about it differently but the idea is the same. Suppose we want to find the root of x^3 + x + 1 = 0. Let's make our first guess (x1) be -1. f'(x) = 3x^2 + 1, so our equation would be: (-1) - ((-1)^3 + (-1) + 1) / (3(-1)^2 + 1). Which yields -.75. Putting .75 in for x2 and re-evaluating gives us-.686046511628. Put our answer now in for x3 and evaluate again, and we get -.682339582597. One more time yields -.682327803947, and a last evaluation gives us -.682327803828. (Note: Notice how on our 2nd and 3rd evaluations .68 is repeated, and on our 3rd and 4th .6823 is repeated and on our 4th and 5th .682327803 is repeated? Newton brought to light something interesting when coming up with his recursive formula. For each evaluation after x2, your accuracy will double. Notice we have two decimal places of accuracy by our 3rd evaluation, 4 by our fourth, and 9 by our fifth. Newton's Method is a GREAT way to get accurate in a hurry. Chances are by our 6th evaluation, we would be accurate to 18 decimal places!) Now those of you with the HP-49, you can program it so each time you hit enter, your answer will be displayed. To program the algorithm, do the follwing (assuming you are in RPN mode): Place your first equation ( f(x) ) on the stack. Press alpha Y, then STO. Now put the derivative of your first equation ( f'(x) ) on the stack. Press alpha Z then STO. Press your first initial guess on the stack (in our previous example, it would be -1), press alpha X then STO. Now for the program. Key in the following, then press enter to place it on the stack: << X Y Z / - ->NUM { X } PURGE X STO X > Now that it is on the stack, press alpha twice, type NEWT, the STO. If you press the VAR button you will notice your variables X, Y, Z, and NEWT above their respective soft keys. Now every time your press NEWT, you will get a numerical value closer and closer to your root. On the TI-89, the idea is the same. Press the gree diamond then f1. This brings you to the y= screen. Type your first equation in y1, and your second equation in y2. Then press the home button. For your program here, press your first inital guess (ours was -1) the press STO-> , press X, then ENTER. Here you assigned a value to x, Then in this sequence, press the following: X - Y1(X) / Y2(X) STO-> X ENTER Each time you press ENTER, you will get closer and closer to the root you are seeking. I know this was a lengthy post, so your comments are appreciated. Any -Aaron ==== > command in our calculators to find the approx solution as well. But how > does the calulator find the root? They use a variety of methods, but the > most commonly used method is Newton's Method. PowerPlot uses this method to find roots. It can be done reasonably fast with a relatively high degree of accuracy, so I thought it was an optimal choice, especially since the cursor could be used for the initial guess. If you download the docs for powerplot, you'll find a graphical illustration of Newton's method. Aaron ==== > PowerPlot uses this method to find roots. How do you bracket the root? This is a much more interesting question - this'll usually use up 80% of the total root finding execution time. Then 18% is used on deciding if to stop or continue searching inside the (probably might-be) bracket. I guess 2% is used for actually finding the root - the easy part. ==== DEFINE X 1GETLAM DEFINE EQU 2GETLAM DEFINE CX 3GETLAM DEFINE PX 4GETLAM DEFINE CY 5GETLAM DEFINE PY 6GETLAM DEFINE BG 7GETLAM DEFINE I 8GETLAM DEFINE IX 9GETLAM :: CK1 ID CONV X TrueTrue 3PICK DUP % .01 %+SWAP 6ROLL 6ROLL $ ERROR: BAD GUESS 7UNROLL 0 8UNROLL 1GETLAM 9 UNROLL TRUE 9 NDUPN DOBIND PX 1PUTLAM EQU ERRSET COMPEVAL ERRTRAP :: xCLEAR BG DISPROW1 RSKIP ; :: 6PUTLAM CX 1PUTLAM BEGIN CX 1PUTLAM EQU ERRSET COMPEVAL ERRTRAP :: xCLEAR BG DISPROW1 TRUE RSKIP ; :: DUP 5PUTLAM PY %- DUP %ABS % .00000000001 %> ITE :: CX PX %- %/ CY SWAP %/ CX SWAP %- CX 4PUTLAM CY 6PUTLAM 3PUTLAM FALSE ; DROPTRUE ; I #1+ 8PUTLAM I 50 #= ITE :: IX 3PUTLAM TRUE ; FALSE OR UNTIL ; 3GETLAM ABND ; PowerPlot uses this method to find roots. How do you bracket the root? This is a much more interesting question - > this'll usually use up 80% of the total root finding execution time. Then > 18% is used on deciding if to stop or continue searching inside the > (probably might-be) bracket. I guess 2% is used for actually finding the > root - the easy part. > ==== rien compris ==== Mille gracie for this. Keep it up! The club is growing. ---snipped rest--- ==== I don't know if you care, since your post was concerned with the graphically the process of iterating to find the root. You give it a starting value and it draws the tangent down to the x axis then back up to the fn, then... etc. It shows clearly how N-R method can be unstable for some starting points where f'(x) is near zero. Look on the Maths Aplets page -> Functions & Calculus section of http://www.hphomeview.com > The first of teaching aids for Calculus with the HP-49G and the TI-89. This > topic will cover the Newton-Raphson recursive algorithm, commonly known as > Newton's Method. Given the fact that we alredy know how to calculate > derivatives and find the equations of tangent lines to curves at a given > point, we will move on. To set the stage for a problem, suppose a used car > dealer offers to sell you a car for $18,000 or for payments of $375 per > month for five years. You would like to know what monthly interest rate the > dealer is, in effect, charging you. To find the answer, you have to solve > the equation (for our time here we will not discuss how we come up with the > equation. Accept it right now for no better reason than authority): 48x(1+x)^60 - (1+x)^60 + 1 = 0 How would you approach solving it? (Note for a quadratic ax^2 + bx +c = 0, > there is a well known formula to find the roots called the quadratic > equation, 3rd and 4th degree equations get much more complicated and there > are formulas to find the roots there, but if f(x) is a polynomial of degree > 5 or higher, there is no such formula to find exact roots.) We could graph > the function in our HP-49 or TI-89, set the viewing rectangle to x->{0,.012} > y->{-.05,.15}, and then use the trace function to approximate the root > between .007 and .008. Zooming in repeatedly, we could find correct to nine > decimal places that the root is .007628603. But this is tiresome, > redundant, and takes a great deal of time. We could use the Solve( ) > command in our calculators to find the approx solution as well. But how > does the calulator find the root? They use a variety of methods, but the > most commonly used method is Newton's Method. Now what is Newton's Method? > Lets discuss it detail: Suppose you have a curve that has a root R and suppose R is not known. To > find R, we take a known value close to R and call it x1. Then we locate the > y-value on the curve so that we have a point (x1, f(x1)). Then calculate > the tangent line at that point and sketch it such that the tangent line > crosses the x axis. That root where the tangent line crossed we will call > x2. Then find the y-value of x2 and repeat the process. What you will find > is in effect x2, x3, etc will get closer and closer to your R root (there > are cases where this will fail, we will discuss these later). In fact, you > only need to find about x5 or x6 to be correct to 6-8 decimal places! To > find a formula for x2 in terms of x1, we use the fact that the slope of L is > f'9x10, so its equation is: y - f(x1) = f'(x1)*(x-x1); where f'(x1) is the derivative of f(x1). Since the x-intercept of L is x2, we set y=0 and obtain; 0 - f(x1) = f'(x1)*(x2-x1). If f'(x1) != (does not equal) 0, we can solve this equation for x2: x2 = x1 - f(x1) / f'(x1) We use x2 as a second approximation to R: x3 = x2 - f(x2) / f'(x2) If we keep repeating this process, we obtain a sequence of approximations > x1,x2,x3,x4,....... In general, if the nth approximation is xn and f'(xn) > != 0, then the next approximation is given by: xn+1 = xn - f(xn) / f'(xn). If the numbers xn become closer and closer to R as n becomes large, then we > say that the sequence converges to R and we write: lim xn = R > n->oo Although the sequence fo successive approximations converges to the desired > root for some functions, in other circumstances the sequence may not > converge. This is likely to be the case when f'(x1) is close to 0. It > might even happen that an approximation falls outside the domain of f. THEN > NEWTONS METHOD FAILS AND A BETTER INITIAL APPROXIMATION X1 SHOULD BE CHOSEN. Now how would you use this with the HP-49 or the TI-89? Well, each > calculator goes about it differently but the idea is the same. Suppose we > want to find the root of x^3 + x + 1 = 0. Let's make our first guess (x1) > be -1. f'(x) = 3x^2 + 1, so our equation would be: (-1) - ((-1)^3 + (-1) + 1) / (3(-1)^2 + 1). Which yields -.75. Putting .75 in for x2 and re-evaluating gives > us-.686046511628. Put our answer now in for x3 and evaluate again, and we > get -.682339582597. One more time yields -.682327803947, and a last > evaluation gives us -.682327803828. (Note: Notice how on our 2nd and 3rd > evaluations .68 is repeated, and on our 3rd and 4th .6823 is repeated and on > our 4th and 5th .682327803 is repeated? Newton brought to light something > interesting when coming up with his recursive formula. For each evaluation > after x2, your accuracy will double. Notice we have two decimal places of > accuracy by our 3rd evaluation, 4 by our fourth, and 9 by our fifth. > Newton's Method is a GREAT way to get accurate in a hurry. Chances are by > our 6th evaluation, we would be accurate to 18 decimal places!) Now those of you with the HP-49, you can program it so each time you hit > enter, your answer will be displayed. To program the algorithm, do the > follwing (assuming you are in RPN mode): Place your first equation ( f(x) ) > on the stack. Press alpha Y, then STO. Now put the derivative of your > first equation ( f'(x) ) on the stack. Press alpha Z then STO. Press your > first initial guess on the stack (in our previous example, it would be -1), > press alpha X then STO. Now for the program. Key in the following, then > press enter to place it on the stack: << X Y Z / - ->NUM { X } PURGE X STO X > Now that it is on the stack, press alpha twice, type NEWT, the STO. If you > press the VAR button you will notice your variables X, Y, Z, and NEWT above > their respective soft keys. Now every time your press NEWT, you will get a > numerical value closer and closer to your root. On the TI-89, the idea is > the same. Press the gree diamond then f1. This brings you to the y= > screen. Type your first equation in y1, and your second equation in y2. > Then press the home button. For your program here, press your first inital > guess (ours was -1) the press STO-> , press X, then ENTER. Here you > assigned a value to x, Then in this sequence, press the following: X - Y1(X) / Y2(X) STO-> X ENTER Each time you press ENTER, you will get closer and closer to the root you > are seeking. I know this was a lengthy post, so your comments are appreciated. Any > -Aaron > ==== Is someone actually archiving these Marathons and teachings aids? I can see that as beeing of huge value to market HP calculators against TI. > I don't know if you care, since your post was concerned with the > graphically the process of iterating to find the root. You give it a > starting value and it draws the tangent down to the x axis then back up > to the fn, then... etc. It shows clearly how N-R method can be unstable > for some starting points where f'(x) is near zero. Look on the Maths > Aplets page -> Functions & Calculus section of http://www.hphomeview.com The first of teaching aids for Calculus with the HP-49G and the TI-89. This > topic will cover the Newton-Raphson recursive algorithm, commonly known as > Newton's Method. Given the fact that we alredy know how to calculate > derivatives and find the equations of tangent lines to curves at a given > point, we will move on. To set the stage for a problem, suppose a used car > dealer offers to sell you a car for $18,000 or for payments of $375 per > month for five years. You would like to know what monthly interest rate the > dealer is, in effect, charging you. To find the answer, you have to solve > the equation (for our time here we will not discuss how we come up with the > equation. Accept it right now for no better reason than authority): 48x(1+x)^60 - (1+x)^60 + 1 = 0 How would you approach solving it? (Note for a quadratic ax^2 + bx +c = 0, > there is a well known formula to find the roots called the quadratic > equation, 3rd and 4th degree equations get much more complicated and there > are formulas to find the roots there, but if f(x) is a polynomial of degree > 5 or higher, there is no such formula to find exact roots.) We could gr aph > the function in our HP-49 or TI-89, set the viewing rectangle to x->{0,.012} > y->{-.05,.15}, and then use the trace function to approximate the root > between .007 and .008. Zooming in repeatedly, we could find correct to nine > decimal places that the root is .007628603. But this is tiresome, > redundant, and takes a great deal of time. We could use the Solve( ) > command in our calculators to find the approx solution as well. But how > does the calulator find the root? They use a variety of methods, but the > most commonly used method is Newton's Method. Now what is Newton's Method? > Lets discuss it detail: Suppose you have a curve that has a root R and suppose R is not known. To > find R, we take a known value close to R and call it x1. Then we locate the > y-value on the curve so that we have a point (x1, f(x1)). Then calculate > the tangent line at that point and sketch it such that the tangent line > crosses the x axis. That root where the tangent line crossed we will call > x2. Then find the y-value of x2 and repeat the process. What you will find > is in effect x2, x3, etc will get closer and closer to your R root (there > are cases where this will fail, we will discuss these later). In fact, you > only need to find about x5 or x6 to be correct to 6-8 decimal places! To > find a formula for x2 in terms of x1, we use the fact that the slope of L is > f'9x10, so its equation is: y - f(x1) = f'(x1)*(x-x1); where f'(x1) is the derivative of f(x1). Since the x-intercept of L is x2, we set y=0 and obtain; 0 - f(x1) = f'(x1)*(x2-x1). If f'(x1) != (does not equal) 0, we can solve this equation for x2: x2 = x1 - f(x1) / f'(x1) We use x2 as a second approximation to R: x3 = x2 - f(x2) / f'(x2) If we keep repeating this process, we obtain a sequence of approximations > x1,x2,x3,x4,....... In general, if the nth approximation is xn and f'(xn) > != 0, then the next approximation is given by: xn+1 = xn - f(xn) / f'(xn). If the numbers xn become closer and closer to R as n becomes large, then we > say that the sequence converges to R and we write: lim xn = R > n->oo Although the sequence fo successive approximations converges to the desired > root for some functions, in other circumstances the sequence may not > converge. This is likely to be the case when f'(x1) is close to 0. It > might even happen that an approximation falls outside the domain of f. THEN > NEWTONS METHOD FAILS AND A BETTER INITIAL APPROXIMATION X1 SHOULD BE CHOSEN. Now how would you use this with the HP-49 or the TI-89? Well, each > calculator goes about it differently but the idea is the same. Suppose we > want to find the root of x^3 + x + 1 = 0. Let's make our first guess (x1) > be -1. f'(x) = 3x^2 + 1, so our equation would be: (-1) - ((-1)^3 + (-1) + 1) / (3(-1)^2 + 1). Which yields -.75. Putting .75 in for x2 and re-evaluating gives > us-.686046511628. Put our answer now in for x3 and evaluate again, and we > get -.682339582597. One more time yields -.682327803947, and a last > evaluation gives us -.682327803828. (Note: Notice how on our 2nd and 3rd > evaluations .68 is repeated, and on our 3rd and 4th .6823 is repeated and on > our 4th and 5th .682327803 is repeated? Newton brought to light something > interesting when coming up with his recursive formula. For each evaluation > after x2, your accuracy will double. Notice we have two decimal places of > accuracy by our 3rd evaluation, 4 by our fourth, and 9 by our fifth. > Newton's Method is a GREAT way to get accurate in a hurry. Chances are by > our 6th evaluation, we would be accurate to 18 decimal places!) Now those of you with the HP-49, you can program it so each time you hit > enter, your answer will be displayed. To program the algorithm, do the > follwing (assuming you are in RPN mode): Place your first equation f(x) ) > on the stack. Press alpha Y, then STO. Now put the derivative of your > first equation ( f'(x) ) on the stack. Press alpha Z then STO. Press your > first initial guess on the stack (in our previous example, it would be -1), > press alpha X then STO. Now for the program. Key in the following, then > press enter to place it on the stack: << X Y Z / - ->NUM { X } PURGE X STO X Now that it is on the stack, press alpha twice, type NEWT, the STO. If you > press the VAR button you will notice your variables X, Y, Z, and NEWT above > their respective soft keys. Now every time your press NEWT, you will get a > numerical value closer and closer to your root. On the TI-89, the idea is > the same. Press the gree diamond then f1. This brings you to the y= > screen. Type your first equation in y1, and your second equation in y2. > Then press the home button. For your program here, press your first inital > guess (ours was -1) the press STO-> , press X, then ENTER. Here you > assigned a value to x, Then in this sequence, press the following: X - Y1(X) / Y2(X) STO-> X ENTER Each time you press ENTER, you will get closer and closer to the root you > are seeking. I know this was a lengthy post, so your comments are appreciated. Any > -Aaron ==== > Is someone actually archiving these Marathons and teaching aids? http://groups.google.com > I can see these as beeing of huge value > to market HP calculators against TI. Is HP any longer producing calculators which can use these Marathons and teaching aids? Well, that's good news! [r->] [OFF] . ==== X > I know this was a lengthy post, so your comments are appreciated. Any > -Aaron Please: search for PDF in tucows If you need full Office, try: EasyOffice (Office Suite) including PDF Filter 4.1 http://www.tucows.com/business/preview/198735.html or search for PDF in zdnet If you need something simple, try: Acropad PDF Creator 1.0 http://downloads-zdnet.com.com/3000-2383-8994127.html?tag=lst-0-11 ==== > I'll have to look for OT48 - OT49 is great. I'd like to take some > bytes to thank Wolfgang for his wonderful programs. They really bring > the HP49 to life. STARTUP of OT48 - called WARMUP - interfers with the that Metakernel has a STARTUP already. Hence I'll revise the $CONFIG program of OT48 so that OT48 can be used by everybody, those who have got Metakernel and those who don't. To this end, I need a small (at most 10 bytes) TRUE/FALSE test on the 48 telling whether the operation system is the I ask the HP48-fans to tell me about such a test. PS. OT48 is not a HACK-lib but written for normal user. It is small but has very fast Order, Purge and Rename commands which are huge programs in the 48 HACK libs. But it has many other tools as well, in particular the LMN command which allows recustomization of the builtin menus. ==== I repeat a request from yesterday on which I didn't get an answer. > Hence I'll revise the $CONFIG program of OT48 so that > OT48 can be used by everybody, those who have got > Metakernel and those who don't. > To this end, I need a small (at most 10 bytes) TRUE/FALSE > test on the 48 telling whether the operation system is the > original one or whether it is (any version of) Metakernel. > Since I never loaded Metakernel ... I ask the HP48-fans > to tell me about such a test. ==== > need a small TRUE/FALSE test on whether Metakernel [is loaded in 48] How about a ROMPTR@ on any command from an MK library? . ==== > need a small TRUE/FALSE test on whether Metakernel [is loaded in 48] How about a ROMPTR@ on any command from an MK library? In the MK you have a ROMPTR that will do nothing if the MK is correctly installed. Will error out if the MK is not installed (but present). And obviously if the MK isn't there you will also get an error with invalid ROMPTR or something like that ==== > need a small TRUE/FALSE test on whether Metakernel [is loaded in 48] How about a ROMPTR@ on any command from an MK library? > In the MK you have a ROMPTR that will do nothing if the MK is correctly > installed. Will error out if the MK is not installed (but present). finally a light at the end of the tunnel. Can you remember which is this rompointer? Please communicate it here. PS. JHM's device would cost much too many bytes. There is still a simpler solution of the problem. The HP48G has the unsupported PTR 0778E (ONSSRP?). Thus, I need only the number of a library which is necessarily attached at HOME if MK is active. What is the number of such a lib ??? ==== Wolfgang Rautenberg escribi.97 en el mensaje > need a small TRUE/FALSE test on whether Metakernel [is loaded in 48] How about a ROMPTR@ on any command from an MK library? In the MK you have a ROMPTR that will do nothing if the MK is correctly > installed. Will error out if the MK is not installed (but present). finally a light at the end of the tunnel. Can you remember > which is this rompointer? Please communicate it here. > Hope this helps: MK 2.30 has a command KERNEL? that does nothing at all and leaves stack as it was... MK docs say something like this command was for testing if MK is present ==== > How about a ROMPTR@ on any command from an MK library? 20.5 bytes, a bit much, but ... So, is there any Metakernel rompointer which doesn't affect the stack, please tell me. ==== > How about a ROMPTR@ on any command from an MK library? If, for instance, xJYA would such thing which nothing > leaves on the stack, everything is easy be just doing > :: > FALSE > ERRSET > xJYA > ERRTRAP > NOT > ; > 20.5 bytes, a bit much, but ... So, is there any Metakernel > rompointer which doesn't affect the stack, please tell me. It seems to me that ROMPTR@ (as John suggests) is what you seek. It doesn't execute the ROMPTR if it exists, and it nicely returns a flag that tells you whether the ROMPTR exists or not. -Joe- ==== > It seems to me that ROMPTR@ (as John suggests) is what you seek. It doesn't > execute the ROMPTR if it exists, and it nicely returns a flag that tells you > whether the ROMPTR exists or not. If I'd follow your and JHM's suggestion then $CONFIG of OT48 will look as follows: :: #200 (number of OT48) TOSRRP xyz (number of MK or a related lib) ZERO #>ROMPTR ROMPTR@ caseDROP DATE TOD %-5 %ALOG %HMS+ ' :: xDELALARM ID WARMUP (my STARTUP) ; THREE{}N xSTOALARM DROP ; I conclude from your and JHM's post that you and he (like me) do not use Metakernel - otherwise you'd have told me *which number xyz* I should choose above. This is the main problem. I'm not in the possesion of a MK ramcard Whatever this number is, we'd need 15 bytes for testing MK's presence. Isn't that a bit too much? ==== > I conclude from your and JHM's post that you and > he (like me) do not use Metakernel - otherwise > you'd have told me *which number xyz* I should > choose above. This is the main problem. I'm not > in the possesion of a MK ramcard ' ROMPTR 50B 0 ROMPTR@ -Joe- ==== > ' ROMPTR 50B 0 ROMPTR@ (=50Bh) Clearly, I could have looked up in hpcalc.org but I'm not sure whether CD's wonderful listing of all external 48-libs coincides with reality I decided to use the smallest possible test. Since MK is probably running only on the HP48G, there is no problem anymore to use its unsupported pointers. Thus, OT48 $Config starts as follows: :: #200 TO?SRRP # 50B PTR 778D (asks whether Metakernel runs at HOME) ?SEMI ... ; A remaining question is whether MK behaves similar to the HP49 operating system and simply drops all stipulations of an external lib's $CONFIG besides simple attachment. For the 49, this is no tragedy because of $EXTPRG. Is this known alreadyo to MK? ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/hp48/tools PS. me the coodinates of the rompointer KERNEL? That is, something like ROMPTR 50B uv. presence of MK. Try XU (Extended UsrRPL) only in the new version. XU is a very powerful command. It expands in a sense the 48-compiler to allow quoting names inside lists etc. This is of interest and indeed very helpful for the UsrRPL programmer who may save bytes AND extend to power of UsrRPL to make it much more similar to SysRPL. ==== > I decided to use the smallest possible test. Since > MK is probably running only on the HP48G, there is > no problem anymore to use its unsupported pointers. > Thus, OT48 $Config starts as follows: > :: > #200 > TO?SRRP > # 50B > PTR 778D (asks whether Metakernel runs at HOME) > ?SEMI > ... > ; > But I see 'WARMUP' in level 1 after ON-C with MK in port 1... That's very bad and probably means that in a warmstart process all libs *including MK* are first detached and then they attach in accending order of the libids. That is, in the moment when OT48 with libid 512 attaches, MK with libid 1291 is not yet attached. If this is true, the test in my program above fails! true that the only solution of the problem is to give OT48 a higher libid as 1291 ??? PS. I've already a number in mind: 1646, the year of birth of Leibniz who, as you know, among other things invented the binary system ... ==== > PS. I've already a number in mind: 1646... Now it works: 'WARMUP' only appears in my screen if MK is inactive with 64 SF but not if MK is on. ==== > Now it works: 'WARMUP' only appears in my screen if MK is inactive with 64 > SF but not if MK is on. this warmstart behaviour already from the 49 Thus, the libid of OT48 will be 1646. PS. Strange that this lucky number (for mankind who was given a man like Leibniz) seems not be used on the HP48. was a contemporary of Voltaire and Madame Pompadour. A fortune that Leibniz didn't much care about what Voltaire Voltaire's best-seller. Leibniz kept thinking ... ==== Instead of complete French/English/Spanish MSG on the 1.19-7 I wish they would be in exlang1 exlang2 exlang3 libraries an run from the port 2=FlashRAM - and - that OT49, KEYMAN, APPSMAN, etc. Together with Nosy & Jazz would be integrated into the ROM. PS: I could then make the FinLib49 in a much easier way than now. (www.dlc.fi/~radix) > Now it works: 'WARMUP' only appears in my screen if MK is inactive with 64 > SF but not if MK is on. this warmstart behaviour already from the 49 > Thus, the libid of OT48 will be 1646. PS. Strange that this lucky number (for mankind who was > given a man like Leibniz) seems not be used on the HP48. > was a contemporary of Voltaire and Madame Pompadour. A > fortune that Leibniz didn't much care about what Voltaire > Voltaire's best-seller. Leibniz kept thinking ... ==== > Now it works: 'WARMUP' only appears in my screen if MK is inactive with 64 > SF but not if MK is on. this warmstart behaviour already from the 49 Thus, the libid of OT49 will be 1646. PS. Strange that this lucky number (for mankind who was given a man like Leibniz) seems not be used on the HP48. was a contemporary of Voltaire and Madame Pompadour. A fortune that Leibniz didn't much care about what Voltaire Voltaire's best-seller. Leibniz kept thinking ... ==== Wolfgang Rautenberg escribi.97 en el mensaje > I decided to use the smallest possible test. Since > MK is probably running only on the HP48G, there is > no problem anymore to use its unsupported pointers. > Thus, OT48 $Config starts as follows: > :: > #200 > TO?SRRP > # 50B > PTR 778D (asks whether Metakernel runs at HOME) > ?SEMI > ... > ; But I see 'WARMUP' in level 1 after ON-C with MK in port 1... That's very bad and probably means that in a warmstart > process all libs *including MK* are first detached > and then they attach in accending order of the libids. > That is, in the moment when OT48 with libid 512 > attaches, MK with libid 1291 is not yet attached. > If this is true, the test in my program above fails! true that the only solution of the problem is > to give OT48 a higher libid as 1291 ??? PS. I've already a number in mind: 1646, the year > of birth of Leibniz who, as you know, among other > things invented the binary system ... salut je recherche des programme de genie civil ==== > salut je recherche des programme de genie civil Salut ami francophone, Si tu cherches des programmes vas fouiner du c.99t.8e de www.hpcalc.org Et la prochaine fois pose ta question en anglais (meme mauvais), c'est mieux vu sur ce newsgroup, et pr.8ecise la calculatrice que tu utilises :) A+ M.L. ==== On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:09:54 +0100, Matthias Lopez [translation for monoglots and non-francophone polyglots] > salut je recherche des programme de genie civil >Salut ami francophone, >Si tu cherches des programmes vas fouiner du c.99t.8e de www.hpcalc.org If you're looking for software, go and rummage around www.hpcalc.org >Et la prochaine fois pose ta question en anglais (meme mauvais), c'est >mieux vu sur ce newsgroup, et pr.8ecise la calculatrice que tu utilises :) And next time ask your question in English (even poor), it's better received in the NG, and say which calculator verion you use. >A+ C ya A bientot Paul -- Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth) What happens if you have lead in your pants as well as lead in your pencil? ==== a Finn trying to translate another F-language to an E-language - enjoy: > salut je recherche des programme de genie civil Salut ami francophone, > Si tu cherches des programmes vas fouiner du c.99t.8e de www.hpcalc.org You'll find these program ?????? in www.hpcalc.org Et la prochaine fois pose ta question en anglais (meme mauvais), c'est ???? question in english (if I remember) it is > mieux vu sur ce newsgroup, et pr.8ecise la calculatrice que tu utilises :) to me that newsgroup that precisely fitsd for the calculator that you are using. PS. Would someone francophone translate it for real, please?! <3dc163e3$0$23826$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net> ==== > a Finn trying to translate another F-language to an E-language - enjoy: Nice try... I'll try myself... > salut je recherche des programme de genie civil Good. > Salut ami francophone, Good. > Si tu cherches des programmes vas fouiner du c.99t.8e de www.hpcalc.org > You'll find these program ?????? in www.hpcalc.org Mine: If you're looking for programs, go digging around www.hcalc.org. Well. 'fouiner' is not exactly the same as 'to dig', but it's not that far. > Et la prochaine fois pose ta question en anglais (meme mauvais), c'est > ???? question in english (if I remember) it is > mieux vu sur ce newsgroup, et pr.8ecise la calculatrice que tu utilises :) > to me that newsgroup that precisely fitsd for the calculator that you are > using. Mine: Next time, ask your question in english (even if it's bad), it's better on this newsgroup, and tell us about the calculator model you're using. > PS. Would someone francophone translate it for real, please?! I'm 'francophone'. Hope my english was not that bad. ;) -- ----- > http://www.aixcomputers.com Jamais rien lu de plus con except.8e une notice de magn.8etoscope. -+- JdC in GNU : Quatres t.90tes hi-fi st.8er.8eo et toujours aussi con -+- ==== I have an old hp-48g and it's been a good friend for a while. It was made in Singapore. I'm a hp fan and I have a few items of old hp test equipment and always admired their build quality (some of their old oscilloscopes are works of art!) I have been thinking about buying a hp-49g... but, I've been reading (horrified) the posts about the build quality of the latest hp-49g's. It seems that hp are going down the Sinclair route: make it as cheap as poss, and hope they dont notice! That guy had some great product concepts, but the realisation was always a disaster. Where is he now? (rhetorical question) Anyhow, what do I need to look for to get a good hp-49g? (e.g. serial number ranges / place of manufacture) John ==== I have an old hp-48g and it's been a good friend for a while. It was made in > Singapore. I love my 48g also! It is still my favorite calc, although I own the 49g. >I'm a hp fan and I have a few items of old hp test equipment and > always admired their build quality (some of their old oscilloscopes are > works of art!) GE seems to have gone down the road today with their test equipment and medical supplies that HP went down many years ago. Good quality stuff. But as with everything else, they just don't make stuff like they used to. That's why I mentioned GE. I have been thinking about buying a hp-49g... but, I've been reading > (horrified) the posts about the build quality of the latest hp-49g's. Don't take the posts too serious. Although it needs some major hardware improvements, outside of it's setbacks, the 49G is a powerhouse of a calculator! I won't trade mine in for anything! Not even a TI92+++! > It seems that hp are going down the Sinclair route: make it as cheap as poss, > and hope they dont notice! Yah, but they are on the verge of coming back! And I have a feeling they learned from their mistakes. > That guy had some great product concepts, but the > realisation was always a disaster. Where is he now? (rhetorical question). Don't you know? He's Waldo in Where's Waldo! :) Anyhow, what do I need to look for to get a good hp-49g? (e.g. serial number > ranges / place of manufacture) Avoid the ID.... serial numbers. They are the Indonesian models, and have a worse keyboard and screen then the Chinese models. As far as the ranges of the serial numbers, look for CN94.......... or later. 9 being the year it was manufactured 1999, 4- being the week of manufacture, and then 5 more numbers being the unit number for that week. For example, if your serial number were CN94712394, the unit was the 12394th unit manufactured in China during the 47th week of 1999. Hope this helps. > John > Aaron -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -Steven Wright ==== Also in case theres anyone else reading this: I found a good price buying guide on hpcalc.com Shame it costs about $35 to ship from USA but only about Euro9 to ship from Europe, as the calcs seem to cheaper over the pond O well it was ever thus... John I have an old hp-48g and it's been a good friend for a while. It was made > in > Singapore. > I love my 48g also! It is still my favorite calc, although I own the 49g. >snip< ==== hi while playing with the <-LIB->, the LIBSp command returns a list of %LID with the instaled libraries, I see those in my 48 GX rev R. So anybody knows WHAT are they for? apart of lib 2, 171 and 1792 0, 1, 2(aka 48S CMD set), 3, 5, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 25, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171(aka 48G CMD set),176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 230, 231, 232, 234, 240, 241 and 1792(aka Prog Struct CMD) thanks a lot! ==== > while playing with <-LIB->, the LIBSp command returns a list of > %LID with the instaled libraries, I see those in my 48 GX rev R. > So anybody knows WHAT are they for? apart of lib 2, 171 and 1792 > 0, 1, 2(aka 48S CMD set), 3, 5, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 25, 161, 162, > 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171(aka 48G CMD set),176, > 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, > 193, 194, 195, 196, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 230, 231, 232, 234, > 240, 241 and 1792(aka Prog Struct CMD) If you search Google Groups... This list is not complete, but... http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6i5a74%24fbl%241%40news.iastate.edu This is not going to help much... [very long!] http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=36AC5A3F.1C416AF2%40te.mah.se HP49... [Holy Joe!] http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=39539BED.816E0890%40jps.net Ever hear of SmartRom? Was it long before MK? http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=HJT9mB1w164w%40cflav.sublink.org [r->] [OFF] . ==== It's not only calculators that are going out of production: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021101/wl_nm/science_pla nts_dc . ==== i have dedicated hours towards finding this ram so i can put more games on my 48g but to no avail.. is there anywhere i can get 128k smd for a reasonable price? im in the process of trying to get a sample from marshall but i doubt it will work! ps i have looked at every upgrade website and the ram they use isn't available anywhere anymore :( any help is appreciated -nate ==== Today I have finished upgrading my HP48G to 128k. It took me three days. I have had problems with soldering. I have damaged PCB under a memory chip. Despite of these troubles I have made it today ! The calculator started to work after pressing hardware reset. I have used a MOSEL VITELIC V62C5181024LL-70W. I think that every memory chip with the following specifications should work: static SRAM 8x128k 5V (+-10% Vcc tolerance recommended) SMD, at least 100ns, SOP32 (not TSOP32 nor DIP32!!), recommended LL version (low low power for low power consumption). Some equivalents could be: HM628128, HY628100, M5M51008, M5628128, UPD43100, M5M521001, KM68100, TC351001 (be careful. try to find datasheets for the chip before buying). I can't recommend any distributor or reasonable price. I'm from the Czech Republic. I've bought it in a local electronic shop. Vojtech Sazel Nate p.92Őe v diskusn.92m pż.92sp.93vku > i have dedicated hours towards finding this ram so i can put more games on > my 48g but to no avail.. is there anywhere i can get 128k smd for a > reasonable price? im in the process of trying to get a sample from marshall > but i doubt it will work! ps i have looked at every upgrade website and the ram they use isn't > available anywhere anymore :( any help is appreciated > -nate Today I have finished upgrading my HP48G to 128k. It took me three days. I have had problems with soldering. I have damaged PCB under a memory chip. Despite of these troubles I have made it today ! The calculator started to work after pressing hardware reset. I have used a MOSEL VITELIC V62C5181024LL-70W. I think that every memory chip with the following specifications should work: static SRAM 8x128k 5V (+-10% Vcc tolerance recommended) SMD, at least 100ns, SOP32 (not TSOP32 nor DIP32!!), recommended LL version (low low power for low power consumption). Some equivalents could be: HM628128, HY628100, M5M51008, M5628128, UPD43100, M5M521001, KM68100, TC351001 (be careful. try to find datasheets for the chip before buying). I can't recommend any distributor or reasonable price. I'm from the Czech Republic. I've bought it in a local electronic shop. Vojtech Sazel Nate p.92Őe v diskusn.92m pż.92sp.93vku > i have dedicated hours towards finding this ram so i can put more games on > my 48g but to no avail.. is there anywhere i can get 128k smd for a > reasonable price? im in the process of trying to get a sample from marshall > but i doubt it will work! ps i have looked at every upgrade website and the ram they use isn't > available anywhere anymore :( any help is appreciated > -nate ==== Try at www.farnell.com Nate schrieb: > i have dedicated hours towards finding this ram so i can put more games on > my 48g but to no avail.. is there anywhere i can get 128k smd for a > reasonable price? im in the process of trying to get a sample from marshall > but i doubt it will work! ps i have looked at every upgrade website and the ram they use isn't > available anywhere anymore :( any help is appreciated > -nate ==== For some reason, my calculator is beeping at me whenever I play either hapaman or android (the oonly 2 games on the calc). If I play a game, everything works OF for maybe a minute or 2. Then, it beeps with each keypress. Whilst beeping the calc stops. It's kinda like when your PC crashes and the keyboard buffer is full. Both games were living in port 2. I moved them with the filer to port 0 and the problem persists. So far, no irratiating beeping occurs anywhere else... On another note, my first HP49 died (never turned on). The replacement was a crappy indonesion one. The keys and mirror effect I can live with, the serial port buffer problem isn't effecting me so far (yes, it is that old), but the dust under the screen cover is driving me nuts... Does anyone know how to get the stuff out from under the screen cover? If I ever win 10 million bucks, I'm gonna hire the ACO people to rewrite the ROM of a TI calc - or maybe shrink the saturn CPU to .13 micron then pump the clock speed up - My only other pet hate is how slow the thing is at times. Otherwise it's a great calc. Al www.alborowski.tk ==== > it is that old), but the dust under the screen cover is driving me > nuts... Does anyone know how to get the stuff out from under the > screen cover? OK, this is not going to be very difficult. First, you can get rid of the plastic screen cover. Just shove in the RS232 port a straightened paper clip in an oblique direction that passes it by and pushes the plastic screen cover up. The cover is held firm by glue at two points. Just be steady with the force and it should give in. I had mine taken out like this and I use it on and off (yes, it slides back in and stays there) depending on the circumstance. Second, you can try blow in from the RS232 with a relatively high pressure pump. Just blowing with your mouth won't do. I can quarantee you the first case though. > micron then pump the clock speed up - My only other pet hate is how > slow the thing is at times. Otherwise it's a great calc. Change the ROM to 1.19.6, use only RPN mode with RRN notation (not algebraics), don't use the EVAL command unless you have to, use floating point numbers not integers (for example 3.0 not 3) and in graphing select a wise resolution or ploing step. take care !Demeter! ==== so I can't rip the cover off yet... Any idea on the beeping? Al www.alborowski.tk it is that old), but the dust under the screen cover is driving me > nuts... Does anyone know how to get the stuff out from under the > screen cover? OK, this is not going to be very difficult. > First, you can get rid of the plastic screen cover. > Just shove in the RS232 port a straightened paper clip in > an oblique direction that passes it by and pushes the > plastic screen cover up. The cover is held firm by > glue at two points. Just be steady with the force and it should > give in. I had mine taken out like this and I use it on and off > (yes, it slides back in and stays there) depending on the > circumstance. > Second, you can try blow in from the RS232 with a relatively > high pressure pump. Just blowing with your mouth won't do. > I can quarantee you the first case though. micron then pump the clock speed up - My only other pet hate is how > slow the thing is at times. Otherwise it's a great calc. Change the ROM to 1.19.6, use only RPN mode with RRN notation (not > algebraics), don't use the EVAL command unless you have to, > use floating point numbers not integers (for example 3.0 not 3) > and in graphing select a wise resolution or ploing step. take care !Demeter! ==== There are several examples in the 49 operating system being not or not completely backward compatible with some 48 applications. Mostly, this has little effect on UsrRPL prgrams. One should clearly distuingish non-compatibility from improvement. E.g., revising UPDIR or the speed and functionality of some browsers cannot be classified as backward incompatibility. I'll restrict the discussion to certain problems with the SysRPL command REPEATER, mainly used for scrolling the cursor inside edit mode or in various applications, e.g., in the CHARS browser. Since this command is not treated in Progr. in SysRPL by CD & EK, I'll analyse it a bit closer. The 48-REPEATER program looks as follows (47.5 bytes): :: 'R'R (Take next 2 objects from runstream) DUP (and eval the second one; the first) EVAL (one must be the bint code of a key.) OVER (After doing so ask whether the key REPKEY? (is still pressed. If not,) NOTcase2DROP (rearrange he stack.) VERYSLOW (But if, then run slowly into) BEGIN (a loop which will end only if) 2DUPSWAP (the key is released) REPKEY? WHILE :: EVAL (Eval the 2nd object) SLOW ; REPEAT 3DROP ; This has been completely reprogrammed for the 49. It is much faster (and much longer) which is very useful for a fast scrolling of the cursor in an edited text or in the interactive stack. But it is not at all helpful in the CHARS browser or for cursor movement in the PICTURE environment when drawing something by hand. It seems to be fairly obvious that the HP48/49 need both, a slow and a fast REPEATER. Everybody who draws a complex animation picture by hand will quickly realize that slowyness is more adequate than speed here. IMHO, the 49-REPEATER should have been give a new name. By the way, the above program is an example of a certain lazyness of the Corvallis team regarding full-power use of SysRPL. Here a reprogrammation: :: 'R'R 2DUP EVAL REPKEY? NOTcase2DROP VERYSLOW BEGIN SLOW 2DUP REPEATKEY? NOT_UNTIL 2DROP ; 37.5 bytes, 10 bytes saved. Call the last program REP (do not run it by itself!!!). Then store the following program in 'Hallo', say, on F1. It should have the first position in VARS. :: ID REP ONE :: HALLO DISPROW1 ; ; Precisely as long you press on Hallo, the HALLO is displayed. Hallo first calls the runstream objects ONE and the progam :: HALLO DISPROW1 ; to the stack and then repeats its evaluation as long as the key F1 is pressed. This kind of using REPEATER outside a closed environement is perhaps of interest to some of you. ==== By the way, the above program is an example of a certain > lazyness of the Corvallis team regarding full-power use > of SysRPL. Here a reprogrammation: :: > 'R'R > 2DUP > EVAL > REPKEY? > NOTcase2DROP > VERYSLOW > BEGIN > SLOW > 2DUP > REPEATKEY? > NOT_UNTIL > 2DROP > ; > > 37.5 bytes There's probably an EVAL missing after the 2DUP inside the BEGIN .. NOT_UNTIL loop. Werner ==== > By the way, the above program is an example of a certain > lazyness of the Corvallis team regarding full-power use > of SysRPL. Here a reprogrammation: ... > There's probably an EVAL missing after the 2DUP inside the BEGIN .. NOT_UNTIL > loop. Oh Werner! You'd find the most hidden typo Clearly, you are right. There is another small mistake. The SLOW comes after the EVAL. Nearly impossible to avoid typos in retyping by hand. A correct reprogramming of the original REPEATER should be :: 'R'R 2DUP EVAL REPKEY? NOTcase2DROP VERYSLOW BEGIN 2DUP EVAL SLOW REPEATKEY? NOT_UNTIL 2DROP ; 37.5 bytes, 10 bytes saved ==== > By the way, the above program is an example of a certain > lazyness of the Corvallis team regarding full-power use > of SysRPL. Here a reprogrammation: ... > There's probably an EVAL missing after the 2DUP inside the BEGIN .. NOT_UNTIL > loop. Oh Werner! You'd find the most hidden typo Clearly, you are right. And there is another small mistake. The SLOW comes after the EVAL. A totally correct reprogramming of the original REPEATER is :: 'R'R 2DUP EVAL OVER REPKEY? NOTcase2DROP VERYSLOW BEGIN 2DUP EVAL SLOW REPKEY? NOT_UNTIL 2DROP ; 40 bytes, 7.5 bytes saved ==== > By the way, the above program is an example of a certain > lazyness of the Corvallis team regarding full-power use > of SysRPL. Here a reprogrammation: ... > There's probably an EVAL missing after the 2DUP inside the BEGIN .. NOT_UNTIL > loop. Oh Werner! You'd find the most hidden typo Clearly, you are right. And there is another small mistake. The SLOW comes after the EVAL. A totally correct reprogramming of the original REPEATER is :: 'R'R 2DUP EVAL OVER REPKEY? NOTcase2DROP VERYSLOW BEGIN 2DUP EVAL SLOW REPEATKEY? NOT_UNTIL 2DROP ; 40 bytes, 7.5 bytes saved ==== Do you remember a few years ago I made a REPEATER for an HP-48 project with *three* independent programmable delay options. 1. before the first key action 2. after first key action, before the rep loop 3. after each key action inside the rep loop (if the key wasn't released) *That's* the ultimate all-purpose REPEATER Wolfgang Rautenberg schrieb im Newsbeitrag > There are several examples in the 49 operating system > being not or not completely backward compatible with > some 48 applications. Mostly, this has little effect > on UsrRPL prgrams. One should clearly distuingish > non-compatibility from improvement. E.g., revising > UPDIR or the speed and functionality of some browsers > cannot be classified as backward incompatibility. I'll restrict the discussion to certain problems with > the SysRPL command REPEATER, mainly used for scrolling > the cursor inside edit mode or in various applications, > e.g., in the CHARS browser. Since this command is not > treated in Progr. in SysRPL by CD & EK, I'll analyse > it a bit closer. The 48-REPEATER program looks as > follows (47.5 bytes): :: > 'R'R (Take next 2 objects from runstream) > DUP (and eval the second one; the first) > EVAL (one must be the bint code of a key.) > OVER (After doing so ask whether the key > REPKEY? (is still pressed. If not,) > NOTcase2DROP (rearrange he stack.) > VERYSLOW (But if, then run slowly into) > BEGIN (a loop which will end only if) > 2DUPSWAP (the key is released) > REPKEY? > WHILE > :: > EVAL (Eval the 2nd object) > SLOW > ; > REPEAT > 3DROP > ; This has been completely reprogrammed for the 49. It is > much faster (and much longer) which is very useful for > a fast scrolling of the cursor in an edited text or in > the interactive stack. But it is not at all helpful in > the CHARS browser or for cursor movement in the PICTURE > environment when drawing something by hand. It seems to be fairly obvious that the HP48/49 need > both, a slow and a fast REPEATER. Everybody who draws a > complex animation picture by hand will quickly realize > that slowyness is more adequate than speed here. IMHO, > the 49-REPEATER should have been give a new name. By the way, the above program is an example of a certain > lazyness of the Corvallis team regarding full-power use > of SysRPL. Here a reprogrammation: :: > 'R'R > 2DUP > EVAL > REPKEY? > NOTcase2DROP > VERYSLOW > BEGIN > SLOW > 2DUP > REPEATKEY? > NOT_UNTIL > 2DROP > ; 37.5 bytes, 10 bytes saved. Call the last program REP > (do not run it by itself!!!). Then store the following > program in 'Hallo', say, on F1. It should have the > first position in VARS. :: > ID REP > ONE > :: > HALLO DISPROW1 > ; > ; Precisely as long you press on Hallo, the HALLO is > displayed. Hallo first calls the runstream objects ONE > and the progam :: HALLO DISPROW1 ; to the stack and > then repeats its evaluation as long as the key F1 is > pressed. This kind of using REPEATER outside a closed > environement is perhaps of interest to some of you. ==== > Do you remember a few years ago I made a REPEATER > for an HP-48 project > with *three* independent programmable delay options. , I got a damned week memory. I can't remember that we ever discussed the REPEATER. Does it cause too much work to present and comment it here for the benefit of all programmers? It can't be that long ==== The same repeated (pun intended) for the HP 48)G, please! PS: Wolfgang - is there by any change to get a library KEYWOMAN, that instead of programming more keys would deliver the HP 41C series functionality that is: would show the OS standard assigned key (perhaps in the status area) separately for normal and shift holds. Maybe so that a long hold would show a shift&hold assignment & null the key when released and a double-click would show the no-hold assignments (naturally also NULLifying the key action) > Do you remember a few years ago I made a REPEATER > for an HP-48 project > with *three* independent programmable delay options. , I got a damned week memory. I can't remember > that we ever discussed the REPEATER. Does it cause too > much work to present and comment it here for the benefit > of all programmers? It can't be that long ==== > The same repeated (pun intended) for the HP 48)G, please! > PS: Wolfgang - is there by any change to get a library > KEYWOMAN, that instead of programming more keys > would deliver the HP 41C series functionality > that is: would show the OS standard assigned key > (perhaps in the status area) separately for normal > and shift holds. Maybe so that a long hold would > show a shift&hold assignment & null the key when released > and a double-click would show the no-hold assignments > (naturally also NULLifying the key action) > I'm always forgetting my key assignments, so I stopped using them altogether. But showing them with long-hold (I can see why you want to name it KEYWOMAN) would solve my problem.. Werner ==== > I'm always forgetting my key assignments, so I stopped using them altogether. I use over 70 key-assignments, and I'm not the only one. Moreover, none of my assignments disturbs a standard assignment. How is this possible? I present an example for the HP48 with JAZZ. Everyhing concerning JAZZ is concentrated on the +/- key. Leftshift-hold +/- starts Mikas marvellous ED while the key continues to Edit if shift is not hold. +/- longhold toggles the 4-level and 5-level stack in SysRPL-view, and so on. Similarly, the K-key is reserved for the most important options of Keyman. And there is still a place free: K (=UParrow) longhold drives directly to the highest level in the interactive stack. My keys are strongly organized. Without them I would never be able to program fast and efficiently PS. By the way, besides keyboard layout, there is a big difference between standard assignments of the 48 and 49. On the 48 this is either a rompointer, a character, or a program in HARDROM (the majority is the latter). On the 49, *only a single* HARDROM-program is used for keys: DoBadKey. Thus, user-made mode-sensitive assignments on the 49 are much longer than on the 48, in general. I hate that ... ==== > I use over 70 key-assignments, and I'm not the only one. > Moreover, none of my assignments disturbs a standard > assignment. How is this possible? I present an example > for the HP48 with JAZZ. Everyhing concerning JAZZ is > concentrated on the +/- key. Leftshift-hold +/- starts > Mikas marvellous ED while the key continues to Edit if > shift is not hold. +/- longhold toggles the 4-level and > 5-level stack in SysRPL-view, and so on. Similarly, the > K-key is reserved for the most important options of Keyman. > And there is still a place free: K (=UParrow) longhold > drives directly to the highest level in the interactive > stack. My keys are strongly organized. Without them I > would never be able to program fast and efficiently ==== Yes. Being a child, I'd never occasion to play. In the difficult years after WorldWar II, I was forced to work, sometimes even through the night. The 48/49 is perhaps a kind of a late recompensation > A utility that shows > the assignment with long-hold (41-like) would be very useful indeed, > provided you assigned ID's only (well :: TakeOver ID FOO ; displays > as FOO). I guess it can be done with KeyMan as is, in a roundabout way. Really no problem for Keyman. What do you want to have displayed? The decompilation of the assignment? That's sufficient for *you* but not for those who do not read SysRPL. I could reprogram the IfL-command a little bit. If the object in level 2 is pure ASCI-text then IfL could interprete it is the user-made comment to his assignment program on level 1. The program is run if the key is normally pressed while the comment is nicely displayed (scrolling if needed) if the key is longhold. Is it this what you mean? ==== [re key assignments in HP41 style] I never had an HP41, but I'm wondering, were keys reassigned by assigning objects to them (e.g. a program itself), or only a program name? One problem with displaying a key assignment object in HP48/49 is that you can readily assign objects that can't be displayed, or which at a minimum can't be *simply* displayed (read: *short* display). I never myself assign my own program object directly to a key; instead, I assign either my program 'name' or a secondary (with TakeOver) made from the name, which displays exactly the same as the simple name. This results in readily displayable definitions, regardless of whether the target program is UserRPL or SysRPL/ML; these definitions are also editable, as well as short (does this lead to faster key mapping?) -[]- . ==== > [re key assignments in HP41 style] I never had an HP41, but I'm wondering, > were keys reassigned by assigning objects to them > (e.g. a program itself), or only a program name? One problem with displaying a key assignment object > in HP48/49 is that you can readily assign objects > that can't be displayed, or which at a minimum > can't be *simply* displayed (read: *short* display). That's up to Wolfgang. I guess that he could extend the KEYWOMAN so that it could parse some undisplayable objects Is not External enough? I also use names, not direct programs, usually in this style :?:name > I never myself assign my own program object directly to a key; > instead, I assign either my program 'name' or a secondary > (with TakeOver) made from the name, which displays > exactly the same as the simple name. This results in readily displayable definitions, > regardless of whether the target program is UserRPL > or SysRPL/ML; these definitions are also editable, > as well as short (does this lead to faster key mapping?) > Different Servers! =----- ==== > Really no problem for Keyman. What do you want to have > displayed? The decompilation of the assignment? That's > sufficient for *you* but not for those who do not read > SysRPL. WH: that's why I said you'd have to assign IDs only (global names), or for those assignments that have to be active in the editor etc, a :: TakeOver ID xyz ; - which displays as xyz. > I could reprogram the IfL-command a little bit. > If the object in level 2 is pure ASCI-text then IfL could > interprete it is the user-made comment to his assignment > program on level 1. The program is run if the key is normally > pressed while the comment is nicely displayed (scrolling > if needed) if the key is longhold. Is it this what you mean? I guess there's no need to change the command; (can you tell I haven't used KeyMan (yet)) With IfL one can assign anything to a key, and display any name on long-hold, so my previous comment is moot. I'll play around with it for a while, thanks Wolfgang! Werner ==== > WH: that's why I said you'd have to assign IDs only (global names), or > for those assignments that have to be active in the editor etc, a > :: TakeOver ID xyz ; - which displays as xyz. > I guess there's no need to change the command; (can you tell I haven't > used KeyMan (yet)) With IfL one can assign anything to a key, and display > any name on long-hold, so my previous comment is moot. > I'll play around with it for a while, thanks Wolfgang! No, as far as I can see there isn't any need. Note that the IfL (If Longhold) command has *two* arguments. The level 2 object is executed if the key is longhold. Clearly, it may be a global name. Simply try the following: Store the program :: FALSE Werner's first key assignment $>GROBCR ViewGrobObject DROP ; in 'WH'. Put 'WH' on Level 2, your favourite program directly on Level 2 and run IfL. Assign this to any key (with A?D from Keyman, for instance). Then, if the key is longhold you see the above text in the nicest possible text-scroll mode, and it the key is normally hit, your program is run. Clearly, you could also use a name of your program. But Keyman is even more smart than Simone Rapisarda's SmartKeys. It makes a new, and a shortest possible composite from your program, from 'WH' and a single unnamed rompointer from Keyman. You should load the latest version of Keyman from my site, morning extra for you. Try at least the assignments of the rightshift-hold soft keys from ASMTs, and you'll save a lot of time in quoting names or rompointers in future ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/keys/ ==== > WH: that's why I said you'd have to assign IDs only (global names), or > for those assignments that have to be active in the editor etc, a > :: TakeOver ID xyz ; - which displays as xyz. > I guess there's no need to change the command; (can you tell I haven't > used KeyMan (yet)) With IfL one can assign anything to a key, and display > any name on long-hold, so my previous comment is moot. > I'll play around with it for a while, thanks Wolfgang! No, as far as I can see there isn't any need. Note that the IfL (If Longhold) command has *two* arguments. The level 2 object is executed if the key is longhold. Clearly, it may be a global name. Simply try the following: Store the program :: FALSE Werner's first key assignment $>GROBCR ViewGrobObject DROP ; in 'WH'. Put 'WH' on Level 2, your favourite program directly on Level 1 and run IfL. Assign this to any key (with A?D from Keyman, for instance). Then, if the key is longhold you see the above text in the nicest possible text-scroll mode, and it the key is normally hit, your program is run. Clearly, you could also use a name of your program. But Keyman is even more smart than Simone Rapisarda's SmartKeys. It makes a new, and a shortest possible composite from your program, from 'WH' and a single unnamed rompointer from Keyman. You should load the latest version of Keyman from my site, morning extra for you. Try at least the assignments of the rightshift-hold soft keys from ASMTs, and you'll save a lot of time in quoting names or rompointers in future ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49/keys/ ==== X > I'll play around with it for a while, thanks Wolfgang! X > key (with A?D from Keyman, for instance). Then, if the > key is longhold you see the above text in the nicest > possible text-scroll mode, and it the key is normally > hit, your program is run. X Nice - BUT what I wanted is this: A library (named KEYWOMAN) which automatically show the standard key assignments (no longholds or double clicks for the *assignments*) which the user assigns via the usual OS methods A) any shift&hold works via OS shift&hold KEYWOMAN shift&longhold shows the key assignment on display with build-in FREEZE functionality - no execution here! B) any non-held old-style key assignment via OS KEYWOMAN double click shows this type of key assignment just like above. Note: There is no way to make an assignment via KEYWOMAN !! It's here only to help the user to remember the standard OS key assignments using the KEYMAN technology for viewing in a totally automated and transparent way. PS: This library may take a whole 4-6 hours to debug - even for Professor Reply-To: dominik@_DROP_THIS_science.uva.nl ==== WR> :: WR> 'R'R (Take next 2 objects from runstream) WR> DUP (and eval the second one; the first) WR> EVAL (one must be the bint code of a key.) WR> OVER (After doing so ask whether the key WR> REPKEY? (is still pressed. If not,) WR> NOTcase2DROP (rearrange he stack.) WR> VERYSLOW (But if, then run slowly into) WR> BEGIN (a loop which will end only if) WR> 2DUPSWAP (the key is released) WR> REPKEY? WR> WHILE WR> :: WR> EVAL (Eval the 2nd object) WR> SLOW WR> ; WR> REPEAT WR> 3DROP WR> ; The above program seems to be still available on the HP49G under the name REPEATERCH. - Carsten ==== > WR> :: 'R'R (Take next 2 objects from runstream) > WR> DUP (and eval the second one; the first) .. > The above program seems to be still available on the HP49G under the > name REPEATERCH. Confusion! On the HP48G there are two repeat commands, REPEATER and REPEATERCH. The latter has been copied in the 49-ROM. The difference is that REPEATER makes a small delay *after* repeating something, while REPEATERCH makes a (somewhat different) delay *before* starting to repeat, omitting the VERYSLOW from REPEATER before running into the repeat-loop. I was unlucky to localize a use of REPETERCH for backward compatibility?). At any rate, the 48-REPEATER is completely reprogrammed on the 49 (no backward-compatibility at all) and used very frequently. Wolfgang PS. , please tell us how many milliseconds takes the ML-written delay in REPEATERCH. I measured with TIM .05_ms which looks strange to me ==== I was hacking a binomial expander the other day when I ran into a bit of a exponents and variables, then used list multiplication, exponentiation and all the terms into the stack, then '->LIST' them at the end. This is about twice as fast, but the last '->LIST' is still holding it up. The Code: << DUP 0 SWAP FOR s 3 DUPN DUP s COMB 4 ROLLD s - ^ SWAP s ^ * * 4 ROLLD NEXT ROT ROT DROP2 1 + ->LIST GSLIST > Should I add all the terms together while they are being generated using '+' or wait and use '->LIST'? My C experience tells me that waiting is usually better (so that the implementation doesn't have to get more memory after each use of '+'), but I don't know how this is implemented on my '48GX. Maybe you do? ==== > Should I add all the terms together while they are being generated using '+' > or wait and use '->LIST'? My C experience tells me that waiting is usually > better (so that the implementation doesn't have to get more memory after > each use of '+'), but I don't know how this is implemented on my '48GX. What your C experience tells you is very good. I guess any other programming experience would give you the same hint. Much faster building the list at the end than keeping adding element to it. Internally, doing plus on a list will be equivalent of doing: LIST-> 1 + ->LIST ==== Re: > Much faster building the list at the end than keeping adding element to it. I don't think he was asking about the goal of building a list, but rather the goal of summing everything into a single algebraic result, because his program ends with this: ->LIST GSLIST Re: ->LIST GSLIST vs + addition of the separate quantities, but GSlist itself uses x+ (the UserRPL addition command), so it doesn't look as if saving all the individual items, then building a list, only finally to sum all its elements, is going to be any more efficient than merely adding each element all along to an accumulating sum. Or is a whole [list] greater than the sum of its parts? [r->] [OFF] . ==== > I don't think he was asking about the goal of building a list, > but rather the goal of summing everything into a single algebraic result, > because his program ends with this: ->LIST GSLIST Maybe, but the question was: Should I add all the terms together while they are being generated using '+' or wait and use '->LIST' To which I answer... ==== > Re: Much faster building the list at the end than keeping adding element to it. I don't think he was asking about the goal of building a list, > but rather the goal of summing everything into a single algebraic result, > because his program ends with this: ->LIST GSLIST > Re: ->LIST GSLIST vs + JYA got my question right, but as you pointed out here... > addition of the separate quantities, but GSlist itself uses > x+ (the UserRPL addition command), so it doesn't look as if > saving all the individual items, then building a list, only > finally to sum all its elements, is going to be any more efficient > than merely adding each element all along to an accumulating sum. Or is a whole [list] greater than the sum of its parts? You guys are the best. ==== Can anyone tell me how to decompose an array in System RPL so that I break down the array into two separate arrays representing the two columns in the original array? Your help would be greatly appreciated. --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ==== ... ' x->COL EvalNoCK DROP ... is the easiest way? Caspar Davis schreef in bericht > Can anyone tell me how to decompose an array in System RPL so that I break > down the array into two separate arrays representing the two columns in the > original array? > Your help would be greatly appreciated. > --- > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ==== maybe Wolfgang would shorten it to: ... 'EvalNoCK: x->COL DROP Caspar Lugtmeier & Eva Skotarczak schrieb im > ... > ' x->COL > EvalNoCK > DROP > ... is the easiest way? Caspar > Davis schreef in bericht > Can anyone tell me how to decompose an array in System RPL so that I break > down the array into two separate arrays representing the two columns in > the > original array? > Your help would be greatly appreciated. > --- > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ==== Yeah, he might. Apparently he is on some byte reduction pills lately. But my code works on an HP48 too (using supported entries, there is an unsupported entry which does the same trick on the HP48 though) Caspar Hellstern <.Hellstern@T-Online.de> schreef in bericht maybe Wolfgang would shorten it to: > ... > 'EvalNoCK: x->COL > DROP > Caspar Lugtmeier & Eva Skotarczak schrieb im > ... > ' x->COL > EvalNoCK > DROP > ... is the easiest way? Caspar > Davis schreef in bericht > Can anyone tell me how to decompose an array in System RPL so that I > break > down the array into two separate arrays representing the two columns in > the > original array? > Your help would be greatly appreciated. > --- > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ==== Well? Nov 1st is here....where're our calcs?!!? ==== The dates might be off, but we'll see something soon. Also, this press release came out 10/31: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2002/021031a.html I've also talked, vaguely, to Edmund Wong at HP about their plans on new calculators and the timeframes. He mentioned that new business models will be released first, starting in November this year. He then mentioned that a new high-end model will be out next fall. I asked about RPN and if they plan on dropping it and from what he told me, I doubt they will. Not specific, but atleast they're letting us know they're working on something. I'm anxious to see the new business models, specifically the hardware and how they are constructed. I'm sure thats an indication of the new models to come. Doug > Well? Nov 1st is here....where're our calcs?!!? ==== Well, I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel for HP. I knew I would see it sooner or later. I never gave up hope. I am extremely excited to see the hardware changed that they might make. Hopefully they learned from the 39,40,and 49 models. Keep the black or dark colors. None of this bright stuff. -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -Steven Wright > The dates might be off, but we'll see something soon. Also, this press release came out 10/31: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2002/021031a.html I've also talked, vaguely, to Edmund Wong at HP about their plans on new > calculators and the timeframes. He mentioned that new business models will > be released first, starting in November this year. He then mentioned that a > new high-end model will be out next fall. I asked about RPN and if they > plan on dropping it and from what he told me, I doubt they will. Not > specific, but atleast they're letting us know they're working on something. > I'm anxious to see the new business models, specifically the hardware and > how they are constructed. I'm sure thats an indication of the new models to > come. Doug Well? Nov 1st is here....where're our calcs?!!? ==== > Well, I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel for HP. I knew I would > see it sooner or later. I never gave up hope. You never gave up hope? If a guy robs you on the street, and beats you up big time in the process, you'll never loose hope that he one day will approach you with a friendly attitude? I was not hoping HP did anything to make up for their failure, as it was deliberate destruction by their own hands. HP gets no pity from me. ==== > Well, I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel for HP. I knew I > would > see it sooner or later. I never gave up hope. You never gave up hope? If a guy robs you on the street, and beats you up > big time in the process, you'll never loose hope that he one day will > approach you with a friendly attitude? Bad analogy. HP has never done any harm in any way to me. All they have done is marketed a few not-so-elite calculators. But in your analogy, a guy has to approach me first, which means I have to be in a situation where I can be approached like that. And I never posititioned myself in such a way with HP. They don't know who I am. And if I were in a bad situation like that, I have a concealed carry permit, so all the more luck to him..... I was not hoping HP did anything to make up for their failure, as it was > deliberate destruction by their own hands. HP gets no pity from me. No pity from me either, but I knew they would pull themselves out of the hole that they dug themselves in. I like their calculators, even if they have slow proccessors, a bad keyboard, an ugly color, and bad screen (in and out)- I still like their calculators. Aaron -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -Steven Wright ==== Good analogy to many developers! HP killed so many project on the doorstep that it deserves the name Mugger (or should it be Sucker) > Well, I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel for HP. I knew I > would > see it sooner or later. I never gave up hope. You never gave up hope? If a guy robs you on the street, and beats you up > big time in the process, you'll never loose hope that he one day will > approach you with a friendly attitude? > Bad analogy. HP has never done any harm in any way to me. All they have > done is marketed a few not-so-elite calculators. But in your analogy, a guy > has to approach me first, which means I have to be in a situation where I > can be approached like that. And I never posititioned myself in such a way > with HP. They don't know who I am. And if I were in a bad situation like > that, I have a concealed carry permit, so all the more luck to him..... I was not hoping HP did anything to make up for their failure, as it > was > deliberate destruction by their own hands. HP gets no pity from me. > No pity from me either, but I knew they would pull themselves out of the > hole that they dug themselves in. I like their calculators, even if they > have slow proccessors, a bad keyboard, an ugly color, and bad screen (in and > out)- I still like their calculators. > Aaron -- > Black holes are where God divided by zero. -Steven Wright ==== I kinda like the color on the 49G. It stands out in my classroom full of TI-8x's. The buttons, on the other hand... > Well, I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel for HP. I knew I would > see it sooner or later. I never gave up hope. I am extremely excited to > see the hardware changed that they might make. Hopefully they learned from > the 39,40,and 49 models. Keep the black or dark colors. None of this > bright stuff. -- > Black holes are where God divided by zero. -Steven Wright > The dates might be off, but we'll see something soon. Also, this press release came out 10/31: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2002/021031a.html I've also talked, vaguely, to Edmund Wong at HP about their plans on new > calculators and the timeframes. He mentioned that new business models > will > be released first, starting in November this year. He then mentioned that > a > new high-end model will be out next fall. I asked about RPN and if they > plan on dropping it and from what he told me, I doubt they will. Not > specific, but atleast they're letting us know they're working on > something. > I'm anxious to see the new business models, specifically the hardware and > how they are constructed. I'm sure thats an indication of the new models > to > come. Doug Well? Nov 1st is here....where're our calcs?!!? ==== I've made a ramcard for my 48SX using a scheme found on www.hpcalc.org. I've made three samples and all have the same problem: installing libraries. All other things work fine (merging, freeing, storing data...). When I install the library (1 STO), the library's number appears on port1. But when I do ON+C or ON/OFF, the message Invalid card data appears, although I have already initialized the card and also the directory port1 becomes empty... I'm using the chip v62c5181024LL-70W from Mosel Vitelic. Any ideas where might be the problem? Andrej ==== >All other things work fine (merging, freeing, storing data...). When I >install the library (1 STO), the library's number appears on port1. >But when I do ON+C or ON/OFF, the message Invalid card data appears, Battery problem when the HP is off? Diode wrong direction? Olaf -- D.i.e.s.S. (K.) ==== > Battery problem when the HP is off? Diode wrong direction? Olaf Olaf, thanks for answering. I've made your version of ramcard... Well, on the scheme diodes polarity is signed with + and -. I've put the diodes in direction: +3V --I>I-- GND So, of the two diodes on the circuit are: ---I>I---Idiodes in direction: > +3V --I>I-- GND Looks good. >So, of the two diodes on the circuit are: ---I>I---IOne end goes to +3v, the other end to card's first pin and the middle >goes to ram/rom switch and to 2nd card's pin... >Is that polarity right? Looks good, too. Have you made a two side-PCB or have you use wire? (The red lines at hp.gif) >The chip voltage is specified for 4.5 to 5.5 V. works good as long as you not switch the HP off. So everything with the ram should be okay. So I expect a problem with the power from the batterie. Pull the card out of the HP and measure the voltage between Pin 16 and Pin 32. >I have to ask you another thing. What should be the width of the >ramcard at 40 pin connector's side? I can not measure this because all my cards are inside my two HP48 and I can not pull them out. But my shematics are postscript so you will see what you get. BTW: You should expect more help from yourself than from me because I have seen my shematic now the first time since four or five years. .-) What I know is this: 1. The PCB is okay, because I use three of them in my HP and made two for good friends. 2. The Number of parts a so small that it is hard to make a mistake. (measure the value of the resistor You can find a FAQ here: http://www.ruhr.de/home/criseis/hp48/faq.html BTW2: I has to replace a battery at one card a year ago. Olaf -- D.i.e.s.S. (K.) ==== > Have you made a two side-PCB or have you use wire? (The red lines at > hp.gif) > >The chip voltage is specified for 4.5 to 5.5 V. works good as long as you not switch the HP off. So everything with > the ram should be okay. So I expect a problem with the power from the > batterie. Pull the card out of the HP and measure the voltage between Pin 16 and > Pin 32. > 2. The Number of parts a so small that it is hard to make a > mistake. (measure the value of the resistor The circuit board was made by a professional company, double sided, metalized vias,... I've made gerber files using the pcb program in There's 2.8 V between the pin 16 and 32. The resistors are 2 x 2.2k and 450K ohm. Are the values ok? The width of may card is 51,8 mm (the width was generated from gerber files). I think it should be wider, because I have to push it in the calc near the right calculator's side (looking from back). If I push it near the opposite side, there's about 2mm difference in its position when regarding previous and the calc does not work... So here's the reason I was asking you for exact card dimension... Andrej ==== >The circuit board was made by a professional company, double sided, >metalized vias,... I've made gerber files using the pcb program in Hmm..perhaps to good. >There's 2.8 V between the pin 16 and 32. >The resistors are 2 x 2.2k and 450K ohm. >Are the values ok? I think so. >The width of may card is 51,8 mm (the width was generated from gerber >files). I think it should be wider, because I have to push it in the The width was a problem with my first card. But the problem is that the HP48 will crash if you put it not in the right postion. If you can store data on the card it must have the right position and it should work until you change the card at minimum. >calc near the right calculator's side (looking from back). If I push >it near the opposite side, there's about 2mm difference in its >position when regarding previous and the calc does not work... So >here's the reason I was asking you for exact card dimension... On my first card I solved the problem with a little bit of 2k-glue on both side of the PCB. Is your SRAM really a normal 128kx8? Have you a datasheet? Olaf -- D.i.e.s.S. (K.) ==== I've noticed another problem... I put the card into the slot, did the memory & hardware reset... I put on the card two files (for eg. :1:D DUP DUP STO and another similar). The two files appear in port1. Then I only download to hp's memory three libraries (I fullfil the calc's own memory), but I don't install them. Then I merge the card with 1 MERGE, free mem is now 131885 and try to download a file 3 kb for egxmple. The transfer stops and the message Insufficent memory appears. I do the hardware reset (no memory loss...) and try again but the same message appears or even the calc freezes, although the free memory is still 131885. Is there any hope to solve the problem or is better to give up? Andrej ==== >I've noticed another problem... Do not merge the broken ram! Download some program that is around 8kb and store it many times, but with different name on the card. Then try the code or compare it. Perhaps there is one adress line defekt and you have 64kb but not as one piece of 64kb. Perhaps you have this: first 8kb, mirror of first 8kb, second 8kb, mirror of second... I think that the HP48 will not notice this. >Is there any hope to solve the problem or is better to give up? The cards are so easy that it should possible to solve it. Olaf -- D.i.e.s.S. (K.) ==== > Do not merge the broken ram! Download some program that is around > 8kb and store it many times, but with different name on the card. Then > try the code or compare it. Perhaps there is one adress line defekt and you have 64kb but not as > one piece of 64kb. Perhaps you have this: first 8kb, mirror of first 8kb, second 8kb, mirror of second... I think that the HP48 will not notice this. > I've put the 100nF between pins 16 and 32. I have downloaded a program (well, a directory not executable file) a little more than 8k to the card (using :1:C1 STO for the first copy, :1:C2 STO for the second copy, until C15 - just a little card memory is left free - it is possible to fill it downloading enough small prg). As the directory is shown only as a file, I've only run the file by file from port1 (I didn't run the prg). The code was shown ( DIR RUNDEMO << {{ Casino 48s}{ and so on), but the calc didn't complaint (I mean there were NOT noisy beeps and error messages shown). Shall I try to store an executable file (not a directory)? Then I freed some memory, merged it and tried to download a bigger file but there was again the error Not enough memory although the MEM command showed enough free space... Andrej ==== >As the directory is shown only as a file, I've only run the file by >file from port1 (I didn't run the prg). The code was shown ( DIR >RUNDEMO << {{ Casino 48s}{ and so on), but the calc didn't >complaint (I mean there were NOT noisy beeps and error messages >shown). Storing will only show the problem if it destroys some important header on the card. It is important to read and compare the data. >Shall I try to store an executable file (not a directory)? I think the best is some big data that did not crash and let you see if the byte changed. For example a picture if possible. Olaf -- D.i.e.s.S. (K.) ==== > I think the best is some big data that did not crash and let you see > if the byte changed. For example a picture if possible. I've tried to store a grob file, map.gro, about 8k long. I've fullfilled the card with this file, stored with different names but when looking the picture stored in any single file on the card, everything seems to be ok... I was again trying to download jazz68.lib and sometimes calc crashes during transfer, or the message not enough memory appears (after 16kbtes transferred and port 1 merged)... Is any library designed to be stored and run from port1 ? Andrej ==== > Is your SRAM really a normal 128kx8? Have you a datasheet? > Yes, the link to datasheet is here: http://www.promelec.ru/pdf/621024_mosel.pdf Andrej ==== >Yes, the link to datasheet is here: >http://www.promelec.ru/pdf/621024_mosel.pdf It should work. It is a very fast ram. Perhaps you can try to solder a 100ns between pin 16 and pin 32. I think it is worth ti try this. If this not help, measure the VIA at you PCB. Perhaps there is something wrong. Olaf -- D.i.e.s.S. (K.) ==== I wonder how Tim Wessman in doing on his mission in Hondourus. Doesn't he come home in like a year or something? -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -Steven Wright ==== Yep, almost exactly a year. I have stayed in contact with him regularly over the last year, he seems to be doing great and is in good spirits. However he was robbed at gun point on a bus about a month ago, not a terribly unusual thing in that neck of the woods according to him. Brad Panike ==== The details on the above reply, this is a copy from his letter on the robbery, keep in mind he is NOT speaking english these days and he is using a non US keyboard. Brad >On wedsday morning we god robbed on the bus. Three men got on in a town 3 or 4 >minutes away from us, and when we were in san pedro, they sat down next to us. >One asked if we were christians. I said yes. He pulled out a pistol and told >us they were taking one of the suitcases of Elder Flores. They asked for >money. We showed them our wallets. They left. We yelled at them to open the >duffle bag and look that there was nothing of value, but they didn?t listen. >Elder Flores lost all his books, his new scriptures, his letters, his photos, >his diary, his negatives, and basically every other irreplaceble thing he has. >They didn?t ask for our backpacks or anything. That?s good because they have >done a lot better with my camera and the camera of elder flores that he had in >his backpack too. I didn?t even feel scared or anything. Elder Flores is more >than just a little depressed. No i didn?t loose anything. No one does anything because they?re all so scared. If you talk about anything >here, the mareros (gangsters) hunt you down, execute all your children and wife >in front of you, and then cut your arm off or something like that. It?s much >better if they just kill you. This has developed over many years of people >that don?t do anything nor care. They seriously climb onto the buses, execute >poeple, and get off and ?nobody saw anything?. It?s very sad. > ==== I'm a beginner at using my HP49g. Is there a quick way to apply an operation to all elements on the stack? ie: 1 2 3 4 5 And then a + to ALL or - to ALL to return: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 or 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 respectively. -- Titus Barik (barik@ieee.org) ==== Titus Barik asked how to do what the subject says. One non-destructive way: << 0. DEPTH 1. SWAP FOR i i PICK + NEXT Total ->TAG > If you negate each sum, however, you can then keep several sums on the stack at the same time, like one of those old paperless printers (or HP17B/19B/18C) But perhaps you'd rather keep lists or matrices instead; these are somewhat easier to deal with and to sum. In fact, here's a beginner's spreadsheet: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=53t4kg%24lpn%40news.iastate.edu (the checksum will differ on HP49) [r->] [OFF] . ==== > For subraction use > << WHILE DEPTH 1 > REPEAT - END > And also: << DEPTH ->LIST << - > STREAM > ==== See at: http://www.hp.com http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2002/021031a.html ==== Essentially meaning that they will sell their calculators by new channels. I don't care. What I want to know is when the new calcs come out? Will there be a top-of-the-line RPN financial? > See at: > http://www.hp.com > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2002/021031a.html > ==== No financial models this year, you'll have to wait 'til summer 2003 > Essentially meaning that they will sell their calculators by new channels. I > don't care. What I want to know is when the new calcs come out? Will there be a > top-of-the-line RPN financial? See at: > http://www.hp.com > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2002/021031a.html > ==== Thats not what I heard from someone at HP... > No financial models this year, you'll have to wait 'til summer 2003 > Essentially meaning that they will sell their calculators by new channels. > I > don't care. What I want to know is when the new calcs come out? Will there be a > top-of-the-line RPN financial? See at: > http://www.hp.com > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2002/021031a.html > ==== The models for a possible Xmas release were at the conference. I think they where 9S and 9G, resembling a lot the HP 30S I would have called them 36S and 36G, respectively. Everything on the calculator line will be renewed mostly cosmetic changes. IF (we are lucky punks - I'm watching D.H. right now!) THEN the financial models might be ready 2003-3 = march NXT yr > Thats not what I heard from someone at HP... No financial models this year, you'll have to wait 'til summer 2003 > Essentially meaning that they will sell their calculators by new > channels. > I > don't care. What I want to know is when the new calcs come out? Will there be a > top-of-the-line RPN financial? See at: > http://www.hp.com > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2002/021031a.html > ==== 9S and 9G ... Joy to the world ... March 2003 IF we are lucky ... Yipeekayokayeh (spelling unimportant, but I'd like to know ...) ... | - < > The models for a possible Xmas release were at the conference. > I think they where 9S and 9G, resembling a lot the HP 30S > I would have called them 36S and 36G, respectively. > Everything on the calculator line will be renewed > mostly cosmetic changes. > IF (we are lucky punks - I'm watching D.H. right now!) > THEN the financial models might be ready 2003-3 = march NXT yr > Thats not what I heard from someone at HP... No financial models this year, you'll have to wait 'til summer 2003 > Essentially meaning that they will sell their calculators by new > channels. > I > don't care. What I want to know is when the new calcs come out? Will there be a > top-of-the-line RPN financial? See at: > http://www.hp.com > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2002/021031a.html > ==== Since the next year is not official yet, a confirmation (or more rumors) is desperately needed... > 9S and 9G ... Joy to the world ... March 2003 IF we are lucky ... Yipeekayokayeh (spelling unimportant, but I'd > like to know ...) ... | - < X> I would have called them 36S and 36G, respectively. X > THEN the financial models might be ready 2003-3 = march NXT yr ==== Rats! > No financial models this year, you'll have to wait 'til summer 2003 > Essentially meaning that they will sell their calculators by new channels. > I > don't care. What I want to know is when the new calcs come out? Will there be a > top-of-the-line RPN financial? See at: > http://www.hp.com > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2002/021031a.html > ==== A number of years ago I was a very enthousistic user of the HP41C. I used to program for my studies and work. But the last few years I didn't use it anymore. However, recently I wanted to do some astro-navigational calculations, and wanted to program them on my old HP41C. But unfortunately I lost my HP documentation somewhere between moving from one house another. Is there anybody someplace who knows how to get this documentation? Is it still available somewhere, Can anybody spare my a copy of his old documentation, or .....? I hope there is someone out there who can help me!! Thanxx Joseph ==== > Is there anybody someplace who knows how to get this documentation? Is it > still available somewhere, Can anybody spare my a copy of his old > documentation, or .....? Try http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp41.htm and http://www.hpmuseum.org/software/swcd.htm -- Myers, Silverlock ==== Those were the days!!! Just look at the quality of the documentation! Is there anybody someplace who knows how to get this documentation? Is it > still available somewhere, Can anybody spare my a copy of his old > documentation, or .....? Try http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp41.htm and http://www.hpmuseum.org/software/swcd.htm -- > Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise > fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give > | your pelt to the trapper. > e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock > ==== On Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:19:43, Maclean > Those were the days!!! > Just look at the quality of the documentation! The documentation for the HP-65 and HP-67 was even more thorough. If the docs for the 48 series was as complete, it would take at least 4 books the size of the Advanced Users Reference Guide to hold it all (given the incredible increase in capabilities). Geoff ==== have a look at the following link : http://library.hp41.org/LibView.cfm?Command=List&CategoryID=12 Alain aq0khj$lla$1@reader13.wxs.nl... A number of years ago I was a very enthousistic user of the HP41C. I used to > program for my studies and work. But the last few years I didn't use it > anymore. > However, recently I wanted to do some astro-navigational calculations, and > wanted to program them on my old HP41C. > But unfortunately I lost my HP documentation somewhere between moving from > one house another. Is there anybody someplace who knows how to get this documentation? Is it > still available somewhere, Can anybody spare my a copy of his old > documentation, or .....? I hope there is someone out there who can help me!! Thanxx > Joseph ==== I've made a ramcard for my 48SX using a scheme found on www.hpcalc.org. I've made three samples and all have the same problem: installing libraries. All other things work fine (merging, freeing, storing data...). When I install the library (1 STO), the library's number appears on port1. But when I do ON+C or ON/OFF, the message Invalid card data appears, although I have already initialized the card and also the directory port1 becomes empty... I'm using the chip v62c5181024LL-70W from Mosel Vitelic. Any ideas where might be the problem? Andrej ==== I know this is off topic but I would like all of you to know my mother passed away yesterday about 9:20 AM EST USA. I have been reading and sometimes giving small pieces of adivce about where to find stuff and hints to this great new group from time to time since before the Interned (considering my limited abilities,) My mom who was 86 was an HP user too, I taught her how to use an HP42 I got her for at Christmas one year and she used it almost every day to balance her check book or for some other calculations, recipes etc. If a person 75 years old can learn to use an HP so can younger people. Harold A. Climer Dept. of Physics,Geology and Astronomy U. Tennessee at Chattanooga ==== My deepest sympathy, Harold. Losing parents is a very difficult time. John > I know this is off topic but I would like all of you > to know my mother passed away yesterday about 9:20 AM EST USA. I have > been reading and sometimes giving small pieces of adivce about where > to find stuff and hints to this great new group from time to time > since before the Interned (considering my limited abilities,) My mom > who was 86 was an HP user too, I taught her how to use an HP42 I got > her for at Christmas one year and she used it almost every day to > balance her check book or for some other calculations, recipes etc. > If a person 75 years old can learn to use an HP so can younger people. > Harold A. Climer > Dept. of Physics,Geology and Astronomy > U. Tennessee at Chattanooga ==== Anyone have some good third party programs for screen capture of the 49 to the pc other than what comes with hp connectivity? i can't seem to find what i want on hpcalc. Aaron -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -Steven Wright ==== > Anyone have some good third party programs for screen capture of the 49 to > the pc other than what comes with hp connectivity? i can't seem to find > what i want on hpcalc. IMHO the best one is HPCOMM, available here: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/link/hpcomm-30r4.zip HPCOMM is a complete HP-to-PC file transfer program... and it also has a screen capture feature that works on both the HP48 and HP49. Although it got HP's stamp of approval, it was not created in-house. Great program. -Joe- ==== Joseph K. Horn schrieb im Newsbeitrag Anyone have some good third party programs for screen capture of the 49 to > the pc other than what comes with hp connectivity? i can't seem to find > what i want on hpcalc. IMHO the best one is HPCOMM, available here: > http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/link/hpcomm-30r4.zip HPCOMM is a complete HP-to-PC file transfer program... and it also has a > screen capture feature that works on both the HP48 and HP49. Although it > got HP's stamp of approval, it was not created in-house. Great program. -Joe- > How about simply using Emu48 with a 49G ROM, then capturing the calc's screen with the menu entry from Emu48? Or is this too easy? ==== > Joseph K. Horn schrieb im Newsbeitrag Anyone have some good third party programs for screen capture of the 49 > to > the pc other than what comes with hp connectivity? i can't seem to find > what i want on hpcalc. IMHO the best one is HPCOMM, available here: > http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/link/hpcomm-30r4.zip HPCOMM is a complete HP-to-PC file transfer program... and it also has a > screen capture feature that works on both the HP48 and HP49. Although it > got HP's stamp of approval, it was not created in-house. Great program. -Joe- I am aware of that program, and use it constantly. But I don't enjoy always having to press the capture button every time I want to do a screen capture. I would rather just press the on-up combo every time I need to and nothing else. How about simply using Emu48 with a 49G ROM, > then capturing the calc's screen with the menu entry from Emu48? Now I hadn't thought about that. Theres a good idea. Or is this too easy? It's too easy. :o) > ==== I'll know how combine a litle grob and a message box in a HP49, and how I can put it meanwhile the program calculates thanks for your HELP Pd: excuse my english it isn't my native language ==== Using SysRPL, not normally possible in UserRPL. Naturally the underlying OS uses in it's messages an icon together with a text. Look SysRPL at www.hpcalc.org You'll find a manual by Eduardo Kalinowsky. http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/faq/ Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK *** I am a first year university student and I need some help in choosing > a new calculator. My dad has offered to buy to a new graphing I used a TI-83plus through high school but I wanted to upgrade to > something more powerful. I am taking Engineering and would like to get an HP. Im not sure if I should go for the 49G or the 48gx. I think Im > leaning towards the 49G but I just cant decide. Ive heard the new > keyboard is really bad but there isnt anywhere where I can try one out > before I buy it so I dont personally know what it feels like. Does > anyone have an opinion on this, is it usable? Also I was wondering about HP not making calculators anymore. Is it > still wise to buy and HP. Or should I maybe consider the TI-89. (Id > think id rather have the HP.) > ==== I was in the same boat as you (1st year engineering, needed decent calc), except I had a HP39 instead of a TI. I got a HP49, and here are my thoughts... *The keyboard is a little annoying, but not a big issue. I don't really notice it anymore. Newer calc's have better kb's. *Make sure you get a calc made in china. The older indonesian ones (serial num starts with ID) are crappy - bad KB and the screen is really rainbowy. The chinese ones are OK *The CAS is *wonderful*. Esp. if you are doing elec engineering. *Switch it to RPN from day one. I thought RPN was crap until I spent 15 mins playing with it. Example of a typical calculation: Find combines resistance of 3 resistors in parallel - 4,5 and 6 ohms: Algerbraic calc: 1/(1/4 + 1/5 + 1/6)= 16 keystrokes HP49g in RPN mode: 4 (1 over but) 5 (1 over but) 6 (1 over but) + + (1 over but) Shift Num 10 keystrokes Saves a heck of a lot of time in tests... To find inverse of a 2 by 2 matrix (I can't be bothered typing out a 10 by 10 [[4 6] 3 5] (1 over but) Takes 8 keystrokes total. The downside to the HP is that it's a bit slow. Only minor but still frustrating. The HP is like a Landrover defender, whilst the TI is like a racecar. For simple stuff the TI is faster but when the going gets tough the HP is the way to go. Another great benefit for the HP is the user group. Whenever I needed help I asked a question here and got helpful answers overnight. My suggestrion is to download the emulator from www.hpcalc.org. Have a play. cheers, Al www.alborowski.tk I am a first year university student and I need some help in choosing > a new calculator. My dad has offered to buy to a new graphing I used a TI-83plus through high school but I wanted to upgrade to > something more powerful. I am taking Engineering and would like to get an HP. Im not sure if I should go for the 49G or the 48gx. I think Im > leaning towards the 49G but I just cant decide. Ive heard the new > keyboard is really bad but there isnt anywhere where I can try one out > before I buy it so I dont personally know what it feels like. Does > anyone have an opinion on this, is it usable? Also I was wondering about HP not making calculators anymore. Is it > still wise to buy and HP. Or should I maybe consider the TI-89. (Id > think id rather have the HP.) > Reply-To: Veli-Pekka Nousiainen ==== HP 49G is my choice still after three years of use. Full 256KB main RAM, additional 256KB RAM and much, much more. The best 48G software nicely integrated Buy it! I am a first year university student and I need some help in choosing > a new calculator. My dad has offered to buy to a new graphing I used a TI-83plus through high school but I wanted to upgrade to > something more powerful. I am taking Engineering and would like to get an HP. Im not sure if I should go for the 49G or the 48gx. I think Im > leaning towards the 49G but I just cant decide. Ive heard the new > keyboard is really bad but there isnt anywhere where I can try one out > before I buy it so I dont personally know what it feels like. Does > anyone have an opinion on this, is it usable? Also I was wondering about HP not making calculators anymore. Is it > still wise to buy and HP. Or should I maybe consider the TI-89. (Id > think id rather have the HP.) > ==== > ... The best 48G software nicely integrated Hey, Hey ... I still consider JAZZ to be the best software ever written for the HP48. And it is not on the HP49. Although MASD was improved over the past 2 years, it has still some bugs. And its error management is by far not as smart as in Mika's JAZZ. Where is your finnish national pride??? ==== I don't have the OS49 source, not the ability to fix the problem. JYA has done a lot of work with MASD and he surely is not going to give up on it. Maybe, you, Professor, can replace MASD by JAZZ at the end of the 2003 after the ROM has been released to public. Maybe you could make it as a university project and guide a lad through his Masters Degree in Computer Science just doing that kind of work ? Is it possible? > ... The best 48G software nicely integrated Hey, Hey ... > I still consider JAZZ to be the best software ever > written for the HP48. And it is not on the HP49. > Although MASD was improved over the past 2 years, > it has still some bugs. And its error management > is by far not as smart as in Mika's JAZZ. Where > is your finnish national pride??? ==== Seen: > Jazz is not on the HP49. Load it in, then: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/programming/misc/jazz49-68e.zip I just used it to assemble some stuff to port an old 48S aviation calculator program to 49G. [r->] [OFF] . ==== > Hey, Hey ... > I still consider JAZZ to be the best software ever > written for the HP48. And it is not on the HP49. > Although MASD was improved over the past 2 years, > it has still some bugs. And its error management > is by far not as smart as in Mika's JAZZ. Where Jazz is available on the HP49 as well. Featurewise, on the compiler option itself, MASD is much more complete IMHO ==== > Jazz is available on the HP49 as well. situation to call it temporarily to port 0 is unplesant. > Featurewise, on the compiler option itself, MASD is much more complete IMHO Yes. E.g., MASD treats directories and arrays, not supported by JAZZ. Critics on the present state of MASD shouln't be taken too serious Clearly, also JAZZ needs improvment in many details. An urgent improvement would be SysRPL view also in the interactive stack, similar to flag -85 on the HP49. Presently, one can toggle only the level 1 object to be in standard or SysRPL view. I do not know why Mika removed the multiline display from earlier versions. ==== > Jazz is available on the HP49 as well. > situation to call it temporarily to port 0 is unplesant. Yeah! Can you two guys smack your heads together and build a SysRPL debugger for the MASD syntax I'm dying to get my hands on ROM 1.19-7 and a build-in debugger would be marvelous surprise. ==== > Jazz is available on the HP49 as well. > situation to call it temporarily to port 0 is unplesant. > Can you two guys smack your heads together > and build a SysRPL debugger for the MASD syntax easy for CdB or JYA to extract it. Clearly, a simper solution is perhaps to make DEBUG2 usable on the real HP49. The only problem for our french friends is documentation More urgend and more difficult is the adaption of the JAZZ-SysRPL-debugger to the needs of the 49, to cover flashpointers and the huge amount of new commands added to SysRPL by JYA. Note that also the JAZZ-SysRPL debugger has certain limits, though I never got a crash on the 48. I'm seldom buisy with debugging. I prefer to paint my subsequent stack-situations if these are too long to be controlled with closed eyes. That's what I repeat to my math-students day after day: PAINT, PAINT, PAINT... Our brain isn't a computer and unfit for sequential information processing. Also geniuses like Newton, Leibniz, Einstein did not think in formulas but in pictures. ==== > > 48x(1+x)^60 - (1+x)^60 + 1 = 0 > > How would you approach solving it? (Note for a quadratic ax^2 + bx +c = 0, > there is a well known formula to find the roots called the quadratic > equation, 3rd and 4th degree equations get much more complicated and there > are formulas to find the roots there, but if f(x) is a polynomial of degree > 5 or higher, there is no such formula to find exact roots.) Expanding the given expression with a CAS and then searching for the roots of the resultant polynomial of 61st order, the CAS returns all the roots, so some algorithm should exists... Infact here are the roots computed by Mupad Light 2.0: [-1.9271561199907936415, - 1.9221771550742015189 - 0.096156398243310602618 I, - 1.9221771550742015189 + 0.096156398243310602618 I, - 1.9072929266183909109 + 0.19128874167214333095 I, - 1.9072929266183909109 - 0.19128874167214333095 I, - 1.8826608727866241589 + 0.28438380247743737298 I, - 1.8826608727866241589 - 0.28438380247743737298 I, - 1.8485415272854846877 - 0.37444989140666193543 I, - 1.8485415272854846877 + 0.37444989140666193543 I, - 1.8052957448503737112 + 0.46052733959404818154 I, - 1.8052957448503737112 - 0.46052733959404818154 I, - 1.7533808573368594499 + 0.54169863876290331877 I, - 1.7533808573368594499 - 0.54169863876290331877 I, - 1.6933458002307988482 - 0.61709813139218831066 I, - 1.6933458002307988482 + 0.61709813139218831066 I, - 1.6258252599049502 - 0.68592114702937567622 I, - 1.6258252599049502 + 0.68592114702937567622 I, - 1.5515329018082498323 + 0.74743248654474487717 I, - 1.5515329018082498323 - 0.74743248654474487717 I, - 1.4712537488124673351 - 0.80097416267082322773 I, - 1.4712537488124673351 + 0.80097416267082322773 I, - 1.3858357869762379747 - 0.84597231254209924765 I, - 1.3858357869762379747 + 0.84597231254209924765 I, - 1.2961808828001938702 + 0.88194320600020787298 I, - 1.2961808828001938702 - 0.88194320600020787298 I, - 1.2032351013595231001 + 0.90849828197037168867 I, - 1.2032351013595231001 - 0.90849828197037168867 I, - 1.107978518124900115 + 0.92534815399228966767 I, - 1.107978518124900115 - 0.92534815399228966767 I, - 1.0114146182428570746 + 0.93230553464479203121 I, - 1.0114146182428570746 - 0.93230553464479203121 I, - 0.91455937462553817026 - 0.92928703660436680905 I, - 0.91455937462553817026 + 0.92928703660436680905 I, - 0.81843008885622774912 + 0.91631381457746886042 I, - 0.81843008885622774912 - 0.91631381457746886042 I, - 0.72403406393069950879 + 0.89351101592187444557 I, - 0.72403406393069950879 - 0.89351101592187444557 I, - 0.6323571501982812613 - 0.86110600587740670692 I, - 0.6323571501982812613 + 0.86110600587740670692 I, - 0.5443521558080398425 - 0.81942532112482715062 I, - 0.5443521558080398425 + 0.81942532112482715062 I, - 0.46092702068458443586 + 0.76889027310794441731 I, - 0.46092702068458443586 - 0.76889027310794441731 I, - 0.38293247580146298569 + 0.71001104906212325838 I, - 0.38293247580146298569 - 0.71001104906212325838 I, - 0.31114854861531933499 + 0.64337899475324951605 I, - 0.31114854861531933499 - 0.64337899475324951605 I, - 0.24626848386738364967 + 0.56965638307774035456 I, - 0.24626848386738364967 - 0.56965638307774035456 I, - 0.18887674174195390045 - 0.48956202023929417929 I, - 0.18887674174195390045 + 0.48956202023929417929 I, - 0.13941255081306149349 - 0.40384835004083711067 I, - 0.13941255081306149349 + 0.40384835004083711067 I, - 0.098093895488165350026 - 0.3132566824195668118 I, - 0.098093895488165350026 + 0.3132566824195668118 I, - 0.064709213935670422801 - 0.21839783275889463678 I, - 0.064709213935670422801 + 0.21839783275889463678 I, - 0.037766108164412608401 - 0.11923514314790783614 I, - 0.037766108164412608401 + 0.11923514314790783614 I, 0.0, 0.0076286028099539777016] Trying to expand the given expression in order to compute the roots of the resulting polynomial with a calculator instead may take too much time, at least with my HP48GX: I had to halt it. Anyway the ROOT finder of the HP48GX (Brent method maybe) plus the deflation method was able to find all the three real roots of the given equation, and the real parts of some complex roots too. The Newton-Raphson algorithm plus the deflation method (running on a Casio calc with no built-in solver) was able to find all the three real roots as well. -- ==== -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -Steven Wright > 48x(1+x)^60 - (1+x)^60 + 1 = 0 > > How would you approach solving it? (Note for a quadratic ax^2 + bx +c = 0, > > there is a well known formula to find the roots called the quadratic > > equation, 3rd and 4th degree equations get much more complicated and there > > are formulas to find the roots there, but if f(x) is a polynomial of degree > > 5 or higher, there is no such formula to find exact roots.) Expanding the given expression with a CAS and then searching for the roots > of the resultant polynomial of 61st order, the CAS returns all the roots, > so some algorithm should exists... Roots can be found, and algorithms exist, in fact your HP49 will show you on a graph all the roots if you use correct viewing rectanges. But can you give me the equation to find such roots wihtout complex roots? Mathematica attemps to give an equation for a polynomial of degree 5, but ends up with at least one complex root. This is where the challenge lies, and has lied for several centuries. > -= snipped =- > ==== > -- > Black holes are where God divided by zero. -Steven Wright > 48x(1+x)^60 - (1+x)^60 + 1 = 0 > > How would you approach solving it? (Note for a quadratic ax^2 + bx +c > = 0, > > there is a well known formula to find the roots called the quadratic > > equation, 3rd and 4th degree equations get much more complicated and > there > > are formulas to find the roots there, but if f(x) is a polynomial of > degree > > 5 or higher, there is no such formula to find exact roots.) Expanding the given expression with a CAS and then searching for the > roots > of the resultant polynomial of 61st order, the CAS returns all the roots, > so some algorithm should exists... Roots can be found, and algorithms exist, in fact your HP49 will show you on > a graph all the roots if you use correct viewing rectanges. But can you > give me the equation to find such roots wihtout complex roots? Equation: FC?(-103)=1 Algorithm: Set real mode on. ==== > Trying to expand the given expression in order to compute the roots > of the resulting polynomial with a calculator instead > may take too much time, at least with my HP48GX: I had to > halt it. EVAL on the HP49G spends around 10 seconds on the complete expansion. ==== Ive hear a lot of different things from different people. Ive heard that HP has stoped making graphing calculators like the 48/49. But Ive also heard from someone that there releasing another graphing calculator a model past the 49 sometime soon. so is HP done or what? ==== Greetings. FWIW: I don't know if HP intends to introduce a new, high-end graphing calculator, but Casio does. Does intend to, that is. See: http://www.casio.com/corporate/pressroom.cfm?act=2&pr=5947 Cordially, Richard Kanarek Algebra FX 2.0+ User, but not otherwise affiliated with Casio. >Ive hear a lot of different things from different people. Ive heard >that HP has stoped making graphing calculators like the 48/49. But >Ive also heard from someone that there releasing another graphing >calculator a model past the 49 sometime soon. so is HP done or what? Reply-To: Veli-Pekka Nousiainen ==== Absolutely not done. AND I know it. Don't believe in rumors. HP and HP calculators will live on. > Ive hear a lot of different things from different people. Ive heard > that HP has stoped making graphing calculators like the 48/49. But > Ive also heard from someone that there releasing another graphing > calculator a model past the 49 sometime soon. so is HP done or what? ==== I'm looking to learn to push my HP 48G+ a bit farther, so I've been looking for the Advanced User's Reference Guide. Does anyone know where I can get one for a reasonable sum (i.e., the $75 HP wants for it doesn't exactly pass as reasonable in my budget)? I've only ever seen one on eBay. Mike ==== Mike Dean escribi.97 en el mensaje > I'm looking to learn to push my HP 48G+ a bit farther, so I've been > looking for the Advanced User's Reference Guide. Does anyone know > where I can get one for a reasonable sum (i.e., the $75 HP wants for it > doesn't exactly pass as reasonable in my budget)? I've only ever > seen one on eBay. Mike If you don't find it: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/docs/programming/hp48gaur.zip ==== http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ I wonder what the price will be. -Louis ==== > http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ I'm not impressed. It looks more like a mobile phone than a calculator; there's no ALPHA keyboard, and the keyboard in general is far too limited (I *hate* touchscreens!); and the case design & color is *almost* as ugly as a 49G. -- Myers, Silverlock ==== > http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ > I wonder what the price will be. -Louis Here's my two cents: it won't be a success and here's why: it looks too much like a PDA. Teachers all over the world will ban it from their classrooms because they feel their students will be cheating w/ it. And other students will bring in their PDA's claiming they're calculators. But it is cool! :) Aaron ==== This could be a nice consolation if casio meets the expectations of many people, that were waiting for HP starting in the market with their XPander. Great idea from HP - great device from CASIO soon ?! I consider buying the classpad (btw. - the name is horrible) because I was very disappointed when HP stopped the launch of XPander, which I was waiting for with patience ! > http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ ==== I think it looks fantastic. If it has truly quick and powerful software - I would consider it. > http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ ==== Pity they didn't include the IR capability of the 38/39G. That has been a really great feature for me as a teacher. Being able to set up (for example) a set of data and axes to display it and then 'beaming' it to the class. No more My graph doesn't look like yours does!. > http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ > I wonder what the price will be. -Louis > ==== Re: http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad Casio's Xpander? Well, it's coming soon, whatever that means, and it will have 3-Dimentional Graphing. Not for use in English classes :) . ==== hi everybody! and my question is: why settle for another calculator while you can have a tank in your pocket? http://jewel.morgan.edu/~rcobo/gnuplot/ i doubt any calculator will ever compare to gnuplot or octave (same syntax as matlab). they both run fast and complement each other. also don't forget XCAS (symbolic) and maxima. with the zaurus/ipaq you learn the real thing. learn once and use forever. PS: the price for a zaurus in the US is about $330 > Re: http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad Casio's Xpander? Well, it's coming soon, whatever that means, > and it will have 3-Dimentional Graphing. Not for use in English classes :) > . ==== Maybe for the keyboard? (Easier to use than any interface in my opinion) > hi everybody! and my question is: why settle for another calculator while you can > have a tank in your pocket? http://jewel.morgan.edu/~rcobo/gnuplot/ i doubt any calculator will ever compare to gnuplot or octave (same > syntax as matlab). they both run fast and complement each other. also don't forget XCAS (symbolic) and maxima. with the zaurus/ipaq you > learn the real thing. learn once and use forever. > . ==== Looks like the software is much less powerful than an HP49G or TI-89, but with 4Mb of extra memory for user programs on that thing, there's not much that can't be added! > http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ > I wonder what the price will be. -Louis ==== Greetings. Regarding your recent post (below): a) I think its a little early to declare that the ClassPad software is much less powerful than its competitors. I doubt Casio could produce a text editor worse than the one embedded in the TI-92, and I think TI's geometry application leaves room for improvement too. b) While the ClassPad might have room for programming, I wouldn't hold my breath while waiting for information on how to program it (via assembler, C, etc.). The Algebra FX series calculators (actually mini-IBM XTs with LCDs) are as powerful and programmable a calculator platform as exists anywhere, yet Casio *still* has not released a single, pigeon-english document on how to program it. Just my two cents, keep the change. Cordially, Richard Kanarek >Looks like the software is much less powerful than an HP49G or TI-89, but >with 4Mb of extra memory for user programs on that thing, there's not much >that can't be added! > http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ > I wonder what the price will be. > -Louis > ==== It is an entry level educational tool !! Nothing for pro's & programmers, sorry! Anyway - a nice new gadget - for school children... :-D > Greetings. Regarding your recent post (below): > a) I think its a little early to declare that the ClassPad software is > much less powerful than its competitors. I doubt Casio could produce a > text editor worse than the one embedded in the TI-92, and I think TI's > geometry application leaves room for improvement too. > b) While the ClassPad might have room for programming, I wouldn't hold > my breath while waiting for information on how to program it (via > assembler, C, etc.). The Algebra FX series calculators (actually > mini-IBM XTs with LCDs) are as powerful and programmable a calculator > platform as exists anywhere, yet Casio *still* has not released a > single, pigeon-english document on how to program it. Just my two cents, keep the change. Richard Kanarek >Looks like the software is much less powerful than an HP49G or TI-89, but >with 4Mb of extra memory for user programs on that thing, there's not much >that can't be added! > http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ > I wonder what the price will be. > -Louis ==== > It is an entry level educational tool !! Yes, like hp9 series :))) Nothing for pro's & programmers, sorry! Why not? I think it can be programmed, and (not sure) I think it is > PocketView derived machine, and PocketView has its own SDK: > http://world.casio.com/download/pv/sdk/down_sdk_e.html Of course, I would prefer a scripting language built-in or something > like UserRPL, but we have to wait for that :) That's what I meant, for Pete's sake! ==== > It is an entry level educational tool !! > Nothing for pro's & programmers, sorry! > Anyway - a nice new gadget - for school children... > :-D i agree. it is just a calculator that they have slapped into a PDA case. a telephone nowadays would do more math. on the PDA side, it looks like the japs are comming strong: this is the kind of stuff you can do with them: http://jewel.morgan.edu/~rcobo/gnuplot/ all we need now is to fit one with the HP48GX case ==== > It is an entry level educational tool !! > Nothing for pro's & programmers, sorry! > Anyway - a nice new gadget - for school children... > :-D > i agree. it is just a calculator that they have slapped into a PDA > case. a telephone nowadays would do more math. on the PDA side, it looks like the japs are comming strong: > PDA? Looks like a mini-notebook to me. I will not even lug around my Jornada 720 anymore. Too heavy at 600 grams. I may buy a Nokia Communicator the very day they put GPRS on it. BUT: I still want a small battery-powered _calculator_ HP 71B is too big, too (not to talk about HP 75) > this is the kind of stuff you can do with them: http://jewel.morgan.edu/~rcobo/gnuplot/ all we need now is to fit one with the HP48GX case > ==== Veli-Pekka Nousiainen escribi.97 en el mensaje > It is an entry level educational tool !! > Nothing for pro's & programmers, sorry! > Anyway - a nice new gadget - for school children... > :-D And you are not alone... In spite of all the things the Casio toy or the Expander can do, I think that a good calculator is a different thing. ==== BWAAAH! They did it - they stole the Xpander idea.. and there is no RPL and Carly just sits on her butt raising her salary :«-( > Looks like the software is much less powerful than an HP49G or TI-89, but > with 4Mb of extra memory for user programs on that thing, there's not much > that can't be added! http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ ==== This actually looks interesting... > http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ > I wonder what the price will be. -Louis ==== I still have my 42s but it hasn't worked for years. The keyboard is frozen. I dimly remember dissassembling it once and cleaning it up with rubbing it when I was a lab tech. > Oops, I didn't think before writing. That's really what 42 lacks most. Anyway, it's > been quite a time since I sold my 42 (If I had sold my soul, I woundn't be more > repentful... Gerson W Barbosa schrieb im Newsbeitrag > What about a 42Sii? > A 42S with a way of storing program outside the calc, without increasing >its > size. >This way is possible with the existing machines (via IR More interesting would be if we could retrieve programs/data from outside... > ==== Hey Folks: For some strange reason I decided to download EMU48 v1.30 tonight and try it out. I say strange because I always carry my main HP48/GX with me in a much battered leather holster and keep my old one (with the slightly pressure-damaged display) next to my computer. The only time I could think to actually use this program is those few times I am out and about using my laptop but the HP is not close to hand. At any rate, EMU48 does not work, and that frustrates me. I had no problems doing the rom dump. It created a file called 48gx_r.rom. This was different from the ROM file name in the KML scripts I lookedat. Both renaming the original file to the one that the script expected and then editing the script file to use the original file name seemed to work fine. When I started Emu48 the bitmap would appear with a Blank LCD display and Norton Crash Guard gave the following error code Access Violation Fault: #c0000005 in address 026F:00410812. These errors would occur immediately after I moved the mouse so I am pretty sure that the program is having problems with those types of events but ONLY after the emulator itself fires up. Based on some earlier messages I read I ran the Convert program on the rom file. No corruption and it seemed to pass the CRC tests alright. The computer I am running this on is a Win98 SE machine, v4.10.2222A, 400mhz PII with 224mb of RAM. The HP48/GX I copied the rom from had two memory cards. A merged 128K card in port 1 and a 640K card in port 2. Anyone got any ideas for me? Any help would be appreciated. Micheal H. Owens mho@scc.net ==== You should have read the Emu48.txt file more carefully (when you ever read it). The CONVERT utility can be called with one argument to check the ROM file and with two arguments to convert it into the Emu format. A CONVERT 48gx_r.rom ROM.48G solves your problem. Christoph Micheal H. Owens schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Hey Folks: For some strange reason I decided to download EMU48 v1.30 tonight and try it > out. I say strange because I always carry my main HP48/GX with me in a much > battered leather holster and keep my old one (with the slightly > pressure-damaged display) next to my computer. The only time I could think > to actually use this program is those few times I am out and about using my > laptop but the HP is not close to hand. At any rate, EMU48 does not work, and that frustrates me. I had no problems doing the rom dump. It created a file called 48gx_r.rom. > This was different from the ROM file name in the KML scripts I lookedat. > Both renaming the original file to the one that the script expected and then > editing the script file to use the original file name seemed to work fine. When I started Emu48 the bitmap would appear with a Blank LCD display and > Norton Crash Guard gave the following error code Access Violation Fault: > #c0000005 in address 026F:00410812. These errors would occur immediately > after I moved the mouse so I am pretty sure that the program is having > problems with those types of events but ONLY after the emulator itself fires > up. Based on some earlier messages I read I ran the Convert program on the rom > file. No corruption and it seemed to pass the CRC tests alright. The computer I am running this on is a Win98 SE machine, v4.10.2222A, 400mhz > PII with 224mb of RAM. The HP48/GX I copied the rom from had two memory > cards. A merged 128K card in port 1 and a 640K card in port 2. Anyone got any ideas for me? Any help would be appreciated. Micheal H. Owens > mho@scc.net ==== I have the last operating system 1.19-6 and I can't conect with people who have older operating systems Anyone know what's happening? ==== I remember HP people talking about HP new calculators, and saying that no handhelds, just calculators... I talked about SDA idea (Scientific Digital Assistant), and maybe I was mad.. or maybe not, since Casio seems to be as mad as me: http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ Even when both ideas (SDA or Casio) are similar to Xpander idea, more or less: http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique/project.html Since HP offers hp9g and hp9s, what else could HP offer against ClassPad? Is it time for a Xpander II? J.Manrique http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique Users Club from Gijon http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu #1077 HPCC Member http://www.hpcc.org ==== | I talked about SDA idea (Scientific Digital Assistant), and maybe I | was mad.. or maybe not, since Casio seems to be as mad as me: | http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ Complete with 3-Dimentional Graphing (sic). -bpb ==== In message <11624751.0211030844.1315499b@posting.google.com>, J.Manrique >I talked about SDA idea (Scientific Digital Assistant), and maybe I was >mad.. or maybe not, since Casio seems to be as mad as me: >http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ I'll reserve judgement on the machine until I see it, but the advertising is just pathetic. Click the CAS link and you can read: >Another outstanding >point of the ClassPad is >that you can enter and >display expressions >exactly the same as >those in the textbook. >You can perform various >operations such as >addition, subtraction, multiplication and division and various >functional calculations. Well that's amazing - a CAS that can add and subtract. What is the world coming to? This is illustrated by two screen shots showing some simple expressions that there is a physical keyboard attached to the machine? If you want to use the stylus to enter numbers then just press the keys with the stylus instead of your finger. But wait, there's more... there are eActivity Applications. Let's click the link and find out more... >The eActivity has the >four advantages over >using paper. Oh good, paper is so passee these days... >First, you can prepare for >your class with eActivity. Wow! All these years teachers have had such trouble preparing lessons using paper. Why did they ever give up using slate, that's what I want to know? >Second, students can >work on a problem at >their own pace. You mean paper's been holding me back all these years? The b*****d. >Third, they can try out various approaches to solving a problem by >themselves. I'll grant them this - calculators are indeed, quicker than using paper for asking and answering what if type questions. >And finally, it is possible to show texts, expressions, figures and >graphs on the screen of the ClassPad. Well, blow me down! You mean you can use the *screen* - hey, get this everyone - you can use the screen for *displaying* things. That's clever. -- ==== > I talked about SDA idea (Scientific Digital Assistant), and maybe I > was mad.. or maybe not, since Casio seems to be as mad as me: > http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ Yes, that's an interesting product - in several ways... > Even when both ideas (SDA or Casio) are similar to Xpander idea, more > or less: > http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique/project.html > Since HP offers hp9g and hp9s, what else could HP offer against > ClassPad? I don't think HP have anything up its sleeve - at least not anything that has to do with a calulator. > Is it time for a Xpander II? Oh, HPs chances with the Xpander are long gone. ==== them.' the zaurus has a package manager that allows you to install and uninstall programs through the GUI. in fact, the zaurus comes without the shell and the user is warned that installing the shell is only for advanced users and it is not recommended. *anybody* that can use a pocketPC can use a zaurus out of the box. it is identical in many respects to a pocketPC. it requires absolutely no linux experience or linux knowledge. the zaurus can be more complex than another PDA because you have the option to modify things, but this is only an option to the user and not a requirement. options give more power at the expense of knowing how-to and the knowing how-to is a learning process. i am not going to lie and say that the zaurus is always easy to use. it is easy to use only for *uses* comparable to a pocketPC. that is, you start programs, install them, use them, sync, etc. but if for example you want to do scripts, then you better know a little. also, the zaurus need improvements in some areas. yes, there are some programs that don't come in a friendly package and need knowledge unless someone takes the time to make the .ipk for it. also not all programs are made to run in the default enviroment (qtopia) and require knowledge. but if you want to take a snap-shot of the screen, all you have to do is 'click' on the camera icon at the botton. many friendly programs are available that make life easier in the zaurus. to install them , all you have to do is download them (ie. into you cf card) and click on the 'INSTALL' tab. ==== > them.' users solely. [...Zaurus, snip...] Yes, I'll admit that the Zaurus looks great, but I've unfortunately never used one. Sharp doesn't reveal much in-depth online info about it either at a first glance - I didn't search deeper. I accept that I was too general in my statement - sorry. ==== > I talked about SDA idea (Scientific Digital Assistant), and maybe I > was mad.. or maybe not, since Casio seems to be as mad as me: > http://www.casio.co.jp/edu_e/classpad/ Yes, that's an interesting product - in several ways... It seems to be a Casio PocketView with math soft and keyboard. > Even when both ideas (SDA or Casio) are similar to Xpander idea, more > or less: > http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique/project.html > Well, install procedure exits since you have to change OS, but once installed it is really easy to update it (more than hp49 OS update). If OS comes installed with the unit from factory that wouldn't be a problem. well-done GUI? > Is it time for a Xpander II? Oh, HPs chances with the Xpander are long gone. I hope not... J.Manrique http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique Users Club from Gij.97n http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu #1077 HPCC Member http://www.hpcc.org ==== > Well, install procedure exits since you have to change OS, but once > installed it is really easy to update it (more than hp49 OS update). That's of course a matter of preference. > If OS comes installed with the unit from factory that wouldn't be a > problem. I'm not talking about the OS - I'm talking about installing additional applications, making built-in ones work, changing settings etc. > well-done GUI? Look at how to change the network name on a 802.11 connection on an Ipaq 3600 for example: - edit /etc/pcmcia/config.opts - near the bottom is a couple of commented-out lines for wvlan_cs - pass in the opts section appropriate - channel/port_type/station_name/network_name settings for mine: opts port_type=3 channel=1 station_name=iPAQ network_name=Porivo - port_type=3 ==> ad-hoc (peer-to-peer) network (replace 3 with 1 for access point-controlled (managed) network) - channel=1 ==> channel to use for communications - station_name/network_name ==> guess :) - /etc/init.d/pcmcia stop - /etc/init.d/pcmcia start - (pcmcia restart gave problems a couple of times, but the above two are probably now safely in the hysterical raisins section, YMMV, HTH, HAND) - recreate the init cramfs to make the changes permanent - covered at http://www.handhelds.org/minihowto/filesystems.html The short version is simply: - make changes - mkcramfs init-dir init-hacked.cramfs Pretty straightforward, huh? Or how about taking a screenshot? (grabbing, compiling program to convert to ppm, and finally converting to png using ImageMagick): cat /dev/fb0 > /tmp/screen.raw sz /tmp/screen.raw gcc -o raw2ppm raw2ppm.c (you will have to navigate the net to find the source, of course) ./raw2ppm screen.raw > screen.ppm convert screen.ppm -rotate 270 screen.png I could go on - it will be years before anyone gets Familiar or any other be applied to the general public. > Oh, HPs chances with the Xpander are long gone. I hope not... I hope so, or else HP is more stupid than I imagined possible... ==== > Well, install procedure exits since you have to change OS, but once > installed it is really easy to update it (more than hp49 OS update). That's of course a matter of preference. It is always a matter of preference, i.e: Zaurus, similar to Jornada X25: CF with new updated ROM, reboot and ready ipaq Familiar with inet connection: two comands that could be on a script, under an icon. > If OS comes installed with the unit from factory that wouldn't be a > problem. I'm not talking about the OS - I'm talking about installing additional > applications, making built-in ones work, changing settings etc. Well, since Familiar uses similar package system than Debian, I see it the easiest way I've ever seen to install/uninstall packages/apps. > well-done GUI? > Yes, maybe they are on early stages: http://opie.handhelds.org http://gpe.handhelds.org I use GPE that has months not more, and it is based on GTK library for UI, the same one that is being use in GNOME project: http://www.gnome.org > Look at how to change the network name on a 802.11 connection on an Ipaq > 3600 for example: [...] Sorry, I haven't done this ever, neither on my PocketPC. And if you find hard, why not doing a UI for it using the available tools, and you have all the info needed, and it is not under secrets API, and development is as easy as in PC desktop, since you are using And you can port apps easy from PC to iPAQ using the SkiffCluster: http://www.handhelds.org/projects/devcluster.html > Pretty straightforward, huh? Or how about taking a screenshot? (grabbing, > compiling program to convert to ppm, and finally converting to png using > ImageMagick): [...] Or just connect your ipaq to internet, nothing as easy as use CF card with net, like I do, and use 'scap' command: http://www.handhelds.org/scap > I could go on - it will be years before anyone gets Familiar or any other > be applied to the general public. than some commercial products. About user friendly, I would say months, no more. GPE and OPIE projects are doing great advances on this area. And again, with a well done GUI, it doesn't matter the OS behind, while it does the job well. So, we have a great OS to develop over it, all we need is a good GUI to manage it, and we have some good start points: http://www.gnome.org http://www.kde.org Next week I will talk face to face with Miguel de Icaza, gnome main creator, about how gnome developers could help to gpe advance, so gui wouldn't be a problem in months. > Oh, HPs chances with the Xpander are long gone. I hope not... I hope so, or else HP is more stupid than I imagined possible... Sure many people is not as stupied than many people think, J.Manrique ==== > Since HP offers hp9g and hp9s, > what else could HP offer against > ClassPad? > What are the hp9g and hp9s? Could you post a suitable link? ==== Since HP offers hp9g and hp9s, > what else could HP offer against > ClassPad? What are the hp9g and hp9s? I thought some named them some time ago > Could you post a suitable link? Sorry, not yet... I hope you understand. J.Manrique http://www.asturlinux.org/~jsmanrique Users Club from Gij.97n http://www.etsiig.uniovi.es/asociaciones/clubusu #1077 HPCC Member http://www.hpcc.org ==== TI calculator breaks - buy a new one. HP49 breaks - call HP???? ==== I am a high school student and need to know how to a best fit curve given a set of data. For example: x: y: -2 -8 -1 -.3 0 5 1 5.5 2 3.3 3 -3.5 This is one example my teacher gave us. Too bad everybody but me and 3 of my friends use TI's. ~shudders~ We all use HP49Gs and have been at a loss the past few days. If you know how to find the best fit curve's equation and correlation (that should be enough) rather easily (or not), then please reply to this post or 5th power. I have checked the manual and the best I could come up with is probably a logarithmic fit, but I am in pre-calc and have not yet covered natural logs. --Bryan ==== >I am a high school student and need to know how to a best fit curve given a >set of data. For example: x: y: >-2 -8 >-1 -.3 >0 5 >1 5.5 >2 3.3 >3 -3.5 >This is one example my teacher gave us. Too bad everybody but me and 3 of >my friends use TI's. >~shudders~ >We all use HP49Gs and have been at a loss the past few days. See section 6 in your user's guide representing systems as matrices. You create the A matrix as columns containing the model you want to fit to the data. For the example above, you want to fit A0 +A1*X +A2*X^2 + A3 So your A matrix is A maxtrix B matrix X^0 X^1 X^2 X^3 [[1 -2 4 -8] [[ -8] [1 -1 1 -1] [ -.3] [1 0 0 0] [ 5] [1 1 1 1] [ 5.5] [1 2 4 8] [ 3.3] [1 3 9 27] [-3.5] This gives the results 4.62 +2.98*X - 1.7*X^2 - 4.3E-2*X^3 I had an automatic program for assembling the A matrix of any order from columns given X, but programs to automate the whole curve fit process are plentiful at www.hpcalc.org. Bill alternate E-dress wtstorey@ieee.org.no.spam.please (Use the obvious) ==== > I am a high school student and need to know how to a best fit curve given a set of data. For example: Bryan: Take a look at the program Curve Expert at http://www.ebicom.net/~dhyams/cvxpt.htm . It is for your desktop and not the 49, so install it and under Tools try CurveFinder to see what you come up with. Roger Metcalf Arlington, Texas, USA Please let me know if you don't receive this message :) ==== To fit a polynomial exactly, create a 2 by n matrix with the data points as columns then use the LAGRANGE command to get a polynomial fitting all the points. Note that if you have created a sigmaDATA matrix for the points, you must transpose it before the LAGRANGE command. For your data (and in RPL mode): Put the following on the stack [[-2 -1 0 1 2 3][-8 -.3 5 5.5 3.3 -3.5]] Executing XL produces [[-2 -1 0 1 2 3][-8 -3/10 5 11/2 33/10 -7/2]] Then executing LAGRANGE produces, in about 1/40 of a second, '-((17*x^5-45*x^4-79*x^3+621*x^2-634*x-1200)/240)' If you do LAGRANGE in approximate mode then the non-integral coefficients will be given in approximate decimal format, and it takes about the same time in approximate mode. There are a number of libraries allowing least squares fitting of polynomials of degree n to data sets of more than n+1 points. I prefer the one called FITn, available from http://www.hpcalc.org/ ==== > Note that if you have created a sigmaDATA matrix for the points, you > must transpose it before the LAGRANGE command. For your data (and in RPL mode): > Put the following on the stack > [[-2 -1 0 1 2 3][-8 -.3 5 5.5 3.3 -3.5]] Executing XL produces > [[-2 -1 0 1 2 3][-8 -3/10 5 11/2 33/10 -7/2]] Then executing LAGRANGE produces, in about 1/40 of a second, > '-((17*x^5-45*x^4-79*x^3+621*x^2-634*x-1200)/240)' If you do LAGRANGE in approximate mode then the non-integral > coefficients will be given in approximate decimal format, and it > takes about the same time in approximate mode. > One can do that, but this is *not* a fit! You have the same number of parameters (coefficients of the polynomial) as you had pairs of x-y values before the fit. The physical meaning of the fit is to reduce parameters to a few values which eventually can be assigned to some quantities with physical meaning according to some theoretical model. ==== Note that if you have created a sigmaDATA matrix for the points, you > must transpose it before the LAGRANGE command. For your data (and in RPL mode): > Put the following on the stack > [[-2 -1 0 1 2 3][-8 -.3 5 5.5 3.3 -3.5]] Executing XL produces > [[-2 -1 0 1 2 3][-8 -3/10 5 11/2 33/10 -7/2]] Then executing LAGRANGE produces, in about 1/40 of a second, > '-((17*x^5-45*x^4-79*x^3+621*x^2-634*x-1200)/240)' If you do LAGRANGE in approximate mode then the non-integral > coefficients will be given in approximate decimal format, and it > takes about the same time in approximate mode. > One can do that, but this is *not* a fit! You have the same number of > parameters (coefficients of the polynomial) as you had pairs of x-y > values before the fit. The physical meaning of the fit is to reduce > parameters to a few values which eventually can be assigned to some > quantities with physical meaning according to some theoretical model. Greetings, > Nick. That is why I mentioned the FITn library. For those, like you, who believe that fit doesn't mean an exact fit. In fact, there is a pretty good quadratic fit to the data set given. ==== Not at all! I overlooked to check the value domain. Nick got it right. The substitution seems to work. ==== > Not at all! I overlooked to check the value domain. > Nick got it right. The substitution seems to work. Yes, only we must watch out to use the transformed fit function and not what the hp retuns. ==== Above number key [ 5 ] says in red letters: STAT Press the red shift key pointing right and then [ 5 ] Select number 3. Fit data Go into the field Model: and press key [F2] above which the menu label says |CHOOS| Choose the last one (by going up using the up-arrow key) and you are done!! > I am a high school student and need to know how to a best fit curve given a I have checked the manual and the best I could come up with is probably a > logarithmic fit, but I am in pre-calc and have not yet covered natural logs. ==== into UserRPL and started SysRPL, I should have made that clear, sorry. All that does is give me a best fit LINE, and this is obviously a parabola. Nice effort, but the best fit option doesn't seem to work too well. Maybe it can't do it > 5th power. I have checked the manual and the best I could come up with is probably a > logarithmic fit, but I am in pre-calc and have not yet covered natural > logs. > --Bryan ==== You are right, these data can be only used for a linmear fit on the HP449G (out of the box) because you have negative x, y values. If you try a logarithmic or any other fit (except linear) you'll get an error LN(neg). You must first move the data (all by the same amount) so that they baecome all positive, do the fit and then move x and y back to their original positions. For example you can apply x1=x+3 and y1=y+9 on your original data, do the fit, then press LR and back substitute x=x1-3, y=y1-9 in the result. > into UserRPL and started SysRPL, I should have made that clear, sorry. All > that does is give me a best fit LINE, and this is obviously a parabola. > Nice effort, but the best fit option doesn't seem to work too well. Maybe > it can't do it > Above number key [ 5 ] says in red letters: STAT > Press the red shift key pointing right and then [ 5 ] > Select number > 3. Fit data > Go into the field Model: > and press key [F2] above which the menu label says |CHOOS| > Choose the last one (by going up using the up-arrow key) > and you are done!! I am a high school student and need to know how to a best fit curve > given > a > set of data. For example: x: y: > -2 -8 > -1 -.3 > 0 5 > 1 5.5 > 2 3.3 > 3 -3.5 > This is one example my teacher gave us. Too bad everybody but me and 3 > of > my friends use TI's. > ~shudders~ > We all use HP49Gs and have been at a loss the past few days. If you know how to find the best fit curve's equation and correlation > (that > should be enough) rather easily (or not), then please reply to this post > or > to > 5th power. I have checked the manual and the best I could come up with is probably > a > logarithmic fit, but I am in pre-calc and have not yet covered natural > logs. > --Bryan ==== You don't change non-linear curve fits by making a translation? If the class exercise was looking for a parabolic fit, however, then only a polynomial fit will produce it. [r->] [OFF] . ==== > You don't change non-linear curve fits by making a translation? I don't understand the question. Perhaps I didn't explain very good. Example: Data is: [[ -2. -9.1 ] [ -1. -7.2 ] [ -0. -3.7. ]] SCATRPLOT shows perhaps power relation of the form y=a*x^b. Because we have negative/zero x's and y's we run into troubles when we try powerfit. So: Change data to y+y0 and x+x0 with x0=3 and y0=10. Now data is: [[ 1. .9 ] [ 2. 2.8 ] [ 3. 6.3 ]] The equation of the fit is now: y+y0=a*(x+x0)^b => y=a*((x+x0)^b)-y0 A powerfit returns now the fit function: y=.8801+x^1.7568 This must be transformed to y=.8801+((x+3)^1.7568)-10 which can be used to calculate original y-values out of original x values. Test: calculated data y(-2.)=-9.12 -9.1 y(-1.)=-7.03 -7.2 y(0.)=-3.94 -3.7 The function can be used with x-values down to -3. (It can be used also with x<-3 but then complex analysis has to be used). So, if it should be used for even smaller x-values (more negative) than -3, (and if we tend to map each and everything on real numbers), then translate using an even bigger x0. If the class exercise was looking for a parabolic fit, > however, then only a polynomial fit will produce it. Sigh! So out of the box one has to take the long way and try to solve sum((Yi-a*Xi^2-b*Xi-c)^2) for a, b, c trying to find a set of parameters that minimizes the sum. Or get MODA. (Very good - it will fit any function we give it.) Nick. ==== Seen: > Because we have negative/zero x's and y's we run into troubles when we > try powerfit. So: Change data to y+y0 and x+x0 with x0=3 and y0=10. Why not x0=5 and y0=15 ? Do all arbitrary choices of x0 and y0 produce the same final result? If not, then this procedure might yield different best fits for different people, depending on what x0, y0 they pick, which would be questionable. -[]- . ==== > Seen: Because we have negative/zero x's and y's we run into troubles when we > try powerfit. So: Change data to y+y0 and x+x0 with x0=3 and y0=10. Why not x0=5 and y0=15 ? Do all arbitrary choices of x0 and y0 produce the same final result? If not, then this procedure might yield different best fits > for different people, depending on what x0, y0 they pick, > which would be questionable. ---------------------------------------------------- Fit function: f(x;x0,y0;a,b,c...) with: x the indep. var. x0,y0 the transl. in x,y-direction a,b,c... the fittable parameters Fit (Gauss): The quantity must be minimized: num of points ----- / 2 / | f(xi;x0,y0;a,b,c)-yi | / / ----- i=1 Please let us call the sum simply S, OK? Without x0, y0 we would have to solve: dS/da+dS/db+dS/dc+....=0 We consider x0 and y0 as additional parameters so that the above becomes: dS/da+dS/db+dS/dc+....dS/dx0+dS/dy0=0 This is the condition for maximum perfectness of the fit from which also the well known formulae of linear fit etc comes from. The above doesn't take into consideration that x0 and y0 can't be varied freely if we are to stay real. For example in the case of power fit we have the additional constraints x+x0>0 y+y0>0 which for a given data set can be written as x0>A and y0>B with A=max(-x) and B=max(-y). So we take into consideration the constraints and we a) either solve ad hoc numerically using the constraints also as guarants for the fitting function to stay in real. At least a good numeric solver should be able to do this. b)or even better we pluck the constraints as a kind of init conditions in dS/da+dS/db+dS/dc+....dS/dx0+dS/dy0=0 using the well known method of Lagrange multipliers. Sometimes analytic solutions for a,b,c,...x0,y0 will be possible, most of the time not possible. But the resulting equations can be used by numeric solvers. ------------------------------------------------- Nick. ==== There isnt anywhere that I can buy a 49G from a store so if I choose to get one I will have to order it off the internet. But I was in a store yesterday and the had a 38, and I tried it out for a sec. If I entered something simple like 6*8 or anything basic it would take a second to compute the answer. The answer would not show up on the screen instantly. With my TI-83 right now for any sort of numerical calculation the answer appears instantly. Is the 49G this slow or what? Also does anyone reccomend one internet company for the 49G over another? I live in Canada so my shipping cost probably wont be cheap so I am looking for the best deal on both the calculator and shipping that I can. ==== What you describe sounds abnormal. A simple multiplication on the 48's and 49's takes no discernable time. Using Algebraic mode on the 49 there is a very small hardly noticeable pause, but who use the dark side on such a fine Calc. Stephen.N HP49 is slower in some o > There isnt anywhere that I can buy a 49G from a store so if I choose > to get one I will have to order it off the internet. But I was in a > store yesterday and the had a 38, and I tried it out for a sec. If I > entered something simple like 6*8 or anything basic it would take a > second to compute the answer. The answer would not show up on the > screen instantly. With my TI-83 right now for any sort of numerical > calculation the answer appears instantly. Is the 49G this slow or > what? Also does anyone reccomend one internet company for the 49G over > another? I live in Canada so my shipping cost probably wont be cheap > so I am looking for the best deal on both the calculator and shipping > that I can. > ==== In message <1036370111.60104@pluto.global.net.au>, Stephen >What you describe sounds abnormal. >A simple multiplication on the 48's and 49's takes no discernable time. >Using Algebraic mode on the 49 there is a very small hardly noticeable >pause, but who use the dark side on such a fine Calc. [Snip] > store yesterday and the had a 38, and I tried it out for a sec. If I Kiel was talking about the 38 not the 49. The 38[1] does seem rather slow for such an operation - not as much as a second, but it is certainly not instantaneous in updating the screen with the result. However, the 49G (and 48) are much much quicker. Buy one of those. The 39G is mid-way between the two. [1] You don't want to buy a 38 - it's been superseded by the 39. -- ==== Original post had the question: Is the 49G this slow or what?. So he wanted to know what it was like on the 49 as he was thinking of buying one. Read the post again. Never played with a 38 or 39 so don't know what they are like. I once lent my 49 to a guy who forgot his 39 for a 2 week stay. Even though I had set it to Algebraic mode he said he couldn't use it so there must be some significant differences. Stephen.N > In message <1036370111.60104@pluto.global.net.au>, Stephen >What you describe sounds abnormal. >A simple multiplication on the 48's and 49's takes no discernable time. >Using Algebraic mode on the 49 there is a very small hardly noticeable >pause, but who use the dark side on such a fine Calc. [Snip] > store yesterday and the had a 38, and I tried it out for a sec. If I Kiel was talking about the 38 not the 49. The 38[1] does seem rather > slow for such an operation - not as much as a second, but it is > certainly not instantaneous in updating the screen with the result. However, the 49G (and 48) are much much quicker. Buy one of those. The > 39G is mid-way between the two. > [1] You don't want to buy a 38 - it's been superseded by the 39. -- > Bruce Horrocks > Hampshire > England > bh@granby.demon.co.uk ==== TI is fast food; HP is fine dining (French cuisine, especially :) There's something for everybody. . ==== Try { 16, 16 } RANM which generates a 256 number 16*16 matrix consisting of random floats between -9. and +9. It's time to the inversed, get your stopwatch ready and hit the inverse key: [1/x] ... Not compare that timing with your favorite TI, CASIO, Sharp The HP49G is darn fast at number crunching matrices! X > calculation the answer appears instantly. Is the 49G this slow or > what? X ==== Are you trying to disappoint our friend Kiel Crowe? It would take for ever > Try { 16, 16 } RANM > which generates a 256 number 16*16 matrix > consisting of random floats between -9. and +9. ...and the reason is that it produces integers and not floats. The HP49G must be in approximate mode for the RANM command to produce real numbers and then it takes about 16.8 seconds for the inverse which is really good. Otherwise, in exact mode, the result takes something like over 7 minutes (on run took 440 seconds). !Demeter! ==== OOOPS! My HP 49G was in Approx. Mode at that time. My stopwatch told me 16 seconds for 16*16 matrix inversion. Easy to remember. What is hard to remember is all those flags and modes and key assignments... Are you trying to disappoint our friend Kiel Crowe? > It would take for ever Try { 16, 16 } RANM > which generates a 256 number 16*16 matrix > consisting of random floats between -9. and +9. ...and the reason is that it produces integers and not floats. > The HP49G must be in approximate mode for the RANM command > to produce real numbers and then it takes about 16.8 seconds > for the inverse which is really good. Otherwise, in exact mode, > the result takes something like over 7 minutes (on run took > 440 seconds). > !Demeter! ==== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Started MINEHUNT, near three mines... I'm sorrounded! - This is it, guys. You've served your country well: retreat. - ... but Sarge, we cannot retreat! - ?? I see... Well, stay put. But whatever you do, DON'T MOVE! I... I will come up with something before the batteries die. Toby ==== --------------------------------------------------------------------- You can use the number pad like the arrow keys but you can go diagonal with them as well. Started MINEHUNT, near three mines... I'm sorrounded! - This is it, guys. You've served your country well: retreat. - ... but Sarge, we cannot retreat! - ?? I see... Well, stay put. But whatever you do, DON'T MOVE! I... I will come up with something before the batteries die. Toby ==== > Started MINEHUNT (built into 48G), > near three mines... I'm surrounded! If it says near 3 mines at the very start, then indeed the arrangement is impossible to successfully navigate; there are many other arrangements which are also impossible, which occurs whenever a chess rook piece could travel over only mined squares along a path from one edge to another, where the path divides the board into one part containing the start location, and another part containing the end location. The mined squares are chosen at random, so this situation can indeed occur (anyone needing a challenge in statistics could work on computing its probability, given the initial number of mines, which by default is 20). If you store -20 (or some other number, representing the number of mines) into 'Nmines' before starting the game, any negative number will turn on the sonar feature (not necessarily available in real warfare), which makes the game much easier to analyze. Real war is hell, and unlike the way the US carries it out of late, many missions in past wars (and sometimes the entire war) were indeed doomed from the start, as is the war against terrorism, if carried out only with current tactics. Not resorting to war at all would of course be better, but proven ways to greatly reduce the likelihood of war (as well as crime, and all else that human negativity induces) have thus far fallen on totally deaf ears and blinded eyes. http://www.mum.edu . ==== Can a mine be hacked out in order to RPN a path for my troops to at least abbandon the mission alive? I can hear this one ticking... oh, no: it's my watch. Or, let's say that I can come up with a quasikamakasi anti-mine jump that will give me and the ones that jump as much as me (sorry for he weak stack) a better chance of abandoning the inmediate sector; into hopefully a cleanner sector... Toby (Sector 1,1, surrounded by 3 mines, running out of time.) Started MINEHUNT (built into 48G), > near three mines... I'm surrounded! If it says near 3 mines at the very start, > then indeed the arrangement is impossible to successfully navigate; > there are many other arrangements which are also impossible, > which occurs whenever a chess rook piece could travel over > only mined squares along a path from one edge to another, > where the path divides the board into one part containing > the start location, and another part containing the end location. The mined squares are chosen at random, so this situation > can indeed occur (anyone needing a challenge in statistics > could work on computing its probability, given the > initial number of mines, which by default is 20). If you store -20 (or some other number, representing > the number of mines) into 'Nmines' before starting the game, > any negative number will turn on the sonar feature > (not necessarily available in real warfare), > which makes the game much easier to analyze. > Real war is hell, and unlike the way the US carries it out of late, > many missions in past wars (and sometimes the entire war) > were indeed doomed from the start, as is the war against > terrorism, if carried out only with current tactics. Not resorting to war at all would of course be better, > but proven ways to greatly reduce the likelihood of war > (as well as crime, and all else that human negativity induces) > have thus far fallen on totally deaf ears and blinded eyes. http://www.mum.edu . ==== > Can I abandon the mission alive? Press STO (saves game into 'MHpar'); then delete 'MHpar' :) Wish it would work for the real world. . ==== WE MADE IT! 3 Nov 02 22:00 - Forward observers were called to seek and destroy MHpar storefront, which created a mess with the ignition sensors, thus disabling them. A new activation session soon followed, apparently posible by the ability to activate mines at will. Waste of time: this time we are clearing the fields like rice patties... Can I abandon the mission alive? Press STO (saves game into 'MHpar'); then delete 'MHpar' :) Wish it would work for the real world. > . ==== Teacher gace me the wonderful task of showing the rest of the class how to input a set of X and Y coordinates and have our Hp48G's derive a formula along the lines of y = mx + b He says it possible and I don't doubt him and I picked a lousy time to misplace my manual. He hinted that it might be located in the Stats menu, but I have no clue. I know how to plot lines using y = my + b in PLOTS by entering that formula, but not vice versa. Any help would be appreciated. ~Chris ==== > Teacher gace me the wonderful task of showing the rest of the class how to > input a set of X and Y coordinates and have our Hp48G's derive a formula > along the lines of y = mx + b > Here's a program that Dave Arnett sent to the newsgroup years ago. Put one coordinate on level 2 and the other on level 1 and it will list off the slope, distance, x-y intercepts, and the equation in the form y = mx + b. Bill %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); << IFERR DUP2 - DUP ARG TAN Slope ->TAG SWAP ABS Distance ->TAG 4 PICK C->R SWAP 4 PICK * - Y-Int ->TAG DUP 4 PICK / 5 PICK 'X' * 4 PICK + = Funct ->TAG THEN (X1,Y1) (X2,Y2) END > ==== > Teacher gace me the wonderful task of showing the rest of the class how to > input a set of X and Y coordinates and have our Hp48G's derive a formula > along the lines of y = mx + b > On the 49, in complex mode, put two points, in the form of complex numbers, on the stack and execute DROITE to get the equation of a (real) line through those two points. I don't think this works on a 48. On both the 48 or the 49, there are lots of other ways of doing it, too. Assuming that x1, y1, x2 and y2 are on the stack, and that x1 is not equal to x2, the following program will do it. << {x y} PURGE -> x1 y1 x2 y2 << y2 y1 - x2 x1- / -> m 'y=m*x+(y1-m*x1)' > > Note: the backslash, , indicates that what follows is a special HP48/49 symbol not available in standard ASCII 7-bit characters. ==== Do not despair! Teachers were meant to be a pain in the butt. Anyway, go to RightShift-5 which brings the STAT menu. Choose the third item which is the Fit data... field. Now, edit the 2x2 matrix in the SigmaDAT field in the form choose the model to be Linear Fit press Ok and there you are! You are left on the stack with a covariance and correlation terms plus the equation you want on the 3rd level. Do DROP twice and the line equation is in front of you. I hope everything worked out well... !Demeter! ==== covariance and such threw me. > Do not despair! Teachers were meant to be a > pain in the butt. Anyway, go to RightShift-5 > which brings the STAT menu. Choose the third item > which is the Fit data... field. Now, edit the > 2x2 matrix in the SigmaDAT field in the form > choose the model to be Linear Fit press Ok > and there you are! You are left on the stack with > a covariance and correlation terms plus the equation > you want on the 3rd level. Do DROP twice and the line > equation is in front of you. I hope everything worked > out well... !Demeter! ==== advertising for them? If so, you know that Google Groups is free don't you? You could also maybe try Outlook, another free access to the news. -- You burros have Calculus in your blood. -Jaime Escalante ==== > or are you just advertising for them? Our local ISP provides their news server news.myisp.com always inserts their banner. And that's the way it is. [as Walter Cronkite used to say] Google is web based; direct NNTP clients are faster, easier and better for reading/sending current postings, IMHO, and the only other free, bannerless NNTP news server that I've seen is located in Italy; I avoid unnecessarily wasting their bandwidth by using our own ISP's designated server, leaving the former less loaded down (and still free to those who haven't other choices). [r->] [OFF] . ==== Google is web based; direct NNTP clients are faster, easier and > better for reading/sending current postings, IMHO, and the only > other free, bannerless NNTP news server that I've seen is > located in Italy www.teranews.com offers a free NNTP (and/or web based) news server. There's a one time charge of $3.95 to set up the account. There's a limit of 50 meg a day. I used this for quite a while before I decided to change to their $6.95 a month account. Retention is the best I've seen. So is speed. They're not very reliable. They seem to have a lot of problems. But they get fixed and life goes on, usually with no loss of messages. Barry ==== matrixes such as AáX=B. I mean, if I have 2x+y=2 3x-y=1 I'd like to get 3 matrixes: - one with the coefficients: [[2 1][3 -1]] - one with the unknown variables: [[x][y]] - one with the rest: [[2][1]] I'm especially interested in getting matrix A. There must be an easy command to do that, but I can't find it! I hope someone to help me. ==== >Message-id: matrixes such as AáX=B. I mean, if I have > 2x+y=2 > 3x-y=1 >I'd like to get 3 matrixes: >- one with the coefficients: [[2 1][3 -1]] >- one with the unknown variables: [[x][y]] >- one with the rest: [[2][1]] > Try this: %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(,); DIR I1 '189/8000' I2 '9/800' I3 '9/2000' MAT [[ 4000 -2000 0 72 ] [ -2000 5000 -2000 0 ] [ 0 -2000 5000 0 ]] EQS { '-72+2000* I1+2000*(I1-I2)=0' '2000*(I2-I1)+1000* I2+2000*(I2-I3)=0' '2000*(I3-I2)+1000* I3+2000*I3=0' } 183<- << VARS 1 OVER '183<-' POS 1 - SUB PURGE > SYS << DUP SIZE -> l n << n ->LIST 'EQS' STO 0 n FOR i 1 n FOR j i j == 1 0 IFTE l j GET STO NEXT 1 n FOR j ' EQS(j)' ->NUM NEXT n ->ARRY i IF NOT THEN NEG 'VET' STO ELSE VET + ARRY-> DROP END NEXT { n n } ->ARRY l PURGE TRN CONJ 'MAT' STO VET MAT / n 1 FOR i DUP i GET ->Q l i GET STO -1 STEP DROP MAT VET n 1 + COL+ 'MAT' STO 'VET' PURGE > > END Create an empty directory and give it a name you like and copy the directory above into it. I/O Parameters: wire, ASCII, 9600, cksum 3, translate 3. Actual program is SYS. I1, I2, I3, MAT, EQS are variables created by the last system I solved. I've kept them as an example. .<- (softkey with characters resembling an arrow) is a utility to clean up variables created by the program (cleans variable at its left). Usage: Enter the equations on the stack one by one Example: '-72+2000*I1+2000*(I1-I2)=0' '2000*(I2-I1)+1000*I2+2000*(I2-I3)=0' '2000*(I3-I2)+1000*I3+2000*I3=0' Then enter a list with the unknown variables: {I1, I2, I3} Run the program (SYS) You'll get I1, I2, I3, MAT (the system matrix, which include matrix A and B, split them later either manually or write a program to do so), EQS (a list of your system equations). Credits.: This program was writen by Francisco Mateus from Angola, now an Electrical Engineer at Siemens do Brasil, when he was my mate at college about on his 28S to help us cope with Circuit Analysis examinations. I made a very insignificant modification in his original program (his matrix was show transposed). About 3 years ago I run into him and then he authorized me to submit it to anyone who might need it. Hope this helps, Gerson. ==== I've finally opted for using the command syst2mat (upgrading previously the rom of my HP49), and it seems it works fine. Nevertheless, I'll note down all the other suggestions in case I need them some day (the program of Gerson W Barbosa escribi.97 en el mensaje >Message-id: matrixes such as AáX=B. I mean, if I have > 2x+y=2 > 3x-y=1 >I'd like to get 3 matrixes: >- one with the coefficients: [[2 1][3 -1]] >- one with the unknown variables: [[x][y]] >- one with the rest: [[2][1]] > Try this: %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(,); > DIR > I1 '189/8000' > I2 '9/800' > I3 '9/2000' > MAT > [[ 4000 -2000 0 72 ] > [ -2000 5000 -2000 0 ] > [ 0 -2000 5000 0 ]] > EQS { '-72+2000* > I1+2000*(I1-I2)=0' > '2000*(I2-I1)+1000* > I2+2000*(I2-I3)=0' > '2000*(I3-I2)+1000* > I3+2000*I3=0' } > 183<- > << VARS 1 OVER > '183<-' POS 1 - SUB > PURGE > > SYS > << DUP SIZE -> l > n > << n ->LIST > 'EQS' STO 0 n > FOR i 1 n > FOR j i j > == 1 0 IFTE l j GET > STO > NEXT 1 n > FOR j ' > EQS(j)' ->NUM > NEXT n > ->ARRY i > IF NOT > THEN NEG > 'VET' STO > ELSE VET > + ARRY-> DROP > END > NEXT { n n > } ->ARRY l PURGE TRN > CONJ 'MAT' STO VET > MAT / n 1 > FOR i DUP i > GET ->Q l i GET STO > -1 > STEP DROP > MAT VET n 1 + COL+ > 'MAT' STO 'VET' > PURGE > > > END > Create an empty directory and give it a name you like and copy the directory > above into it. I/O Parameters: wire, ASCII, 9600, cksum 3, translate 3. > Actual program is SYS. I1, I2, I3, MAT, EQS are variables created by the last > system I solved. I've kept them as an example. > .<- (softkey with characters resembling an arrow) is a utility to clean up > variables created by the program (cleans variable at its left). Usage: > Enter the equations on the stack one by one > Example: '-72+2000*I1+2000*(I1-I2)=0' > '2000*(I2-I1)+1000*I2+2000*(I2-I3)=0' > '2000*(I3-I2)+1000*I3+2000*I3=0' Then enter a list with the unknown variables: {I1, I2, I3} Run the program (SYS) You'll get I1, I2, I3, MAT (the system matrix, which include matrix A and B, > split them later either manually or write a program to do so), EQS (a list of > your system equations). Credits.: This program was writen by Francisco Mateus from Angola, now an > Electrical Engineer at Siemens do Brasil, when he was my mate at college about program > on his 28S to help us cope with Circuit Analysis examinations. I made a very > insignificant modification in his original program (his matrix was show > transposed). About 3 years ago I run into him and then he authorized me to > submit it to anyone who might need it. Hope this helps, Gerson. ==== Wouldnt that be.... [[2][1]] [[3][-1]] [[2] [1]] You can do that under SOLVE linear inequalites. > matrixes such as AáX=B. I mean, if I have > 2x+y=2 > 3x-y=1 > I'd like to get 3 matrixes: > - one with the coefficients: [[2 1][3 -1]] > - one with the unknown variables: [[x][y]] > - one with the rest: [[2][1]] I'm especially interested in getting matrix A. There must be an easy command > to do that, but I can't find it! I hope someone to help me. > ==== > matrixes such as AáX=B. I mean, if I have > 2x+y=2 > 3x-y=1 > I'd like to get 3 matrixes: > - one with the coefficients: [[2 1][3 -1]] > - one with the unknown variables: [[x][y]] > - one with the rest: [[2][1]] > There is a command in the 49 called SYST2MAT wich converts a system to a matrix. I have written a command (much better called SYSTXMAT for my 48 wich does the same that the above, plus the inverse conversion: given a matrix and a list of variables, get the system. I use this command every day. I'll send you it if you are interested. (I'm not sure now, but I think this command needs Erable for working) ==== Ich seach a program for the HP48 /49 to splinter a complex number into a real part and the imaginary part. The number to split is very long!!!. have a nice day Mike ==== escribi.97 en el mensaje Ich seach a program for the HP48 /49 to splinter a complex number > into a real part and the imaginary part. C->R in MTH/CMPL menu, does not work? ==== I am writing an essay about calculators (specially TI and HP) for my composition class, but I have some doubts: Is the Xpander software more powerful than the HP49 one? Does the Xpander software use software, ideas or feedback from the users as the HP49? (Well, I mean did they do something like they did with Erable) Has any body used the Voyage 200? How is it? Is it good? When was the biggest jump of calculators? (Which do you think was the product that changed the industry? What path will calculators take? PDA-Calculator? Just calculator? Or other? Marturo ==== > I am writing an essay about calculators (specially TI and HP) for my > composition class, but I have some doubts: Is the Xpander software more powerful than the HP49 one? > Does the Xpander software use software, ideas or feedback from the > users as the HP49? (Well, I mean did they do something like they did > with Erable) > Has any body used the Voyage 200? How is it? Is it good? When was the biggest jump of calculators? (Which do you think was the > product that changed the industry? > What path will calculators take? PDA-Calculator? Just calculator? Or > other? Marturo HP: www.hpmuseum.org TI: www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/ Peaks/2401/theotius.htm General: infospeck.imess.net/hardware/calculators.html ==== I think you need to visit www.hpmuseum.org first. I don't know of a site like this for TI, but atleast you'll know more about HP. Doug > I am writing an essay about calculators (specially TI and HP) for my > composition class, but I have some doubts: Is the Xpander software more powerful than the HP49 one? > Does the Xpander software use software, ideas or feedback from the > users as the HP49? (Well, I mean did they do something like they did > with Erable) > Has any body used the Voyage 200? How is it? Is it good? When was the biggest jump of calculators? (Which do you think was the > product that changed the industry? > What path will calculators take? PDA-Calculator? Just calculator? Or > other? Marturo ==== > I am writing an essay about calculators (specially TI and HP) for my > composition class, but I have some doubts: When was the biggest jump of calculators? (Which do you think was the > product that changed the industry? The HP41, definitely. If you want to know why, visit www.hpmuseum.org ==== > The HP41, definitely. If you want to know why, visit www.hpmuseum.org I vote for the HP28 series which introduced RPL and the large stack. When the 28S came out I ran to the electronics store and bought one, obligatory solar system simulation. The 48 series and the 49 are much more capable but they both lack the elegance of the 28 series. Enthusiastic babbling finished. Britt ==== Seen: > { 2 3 } 1 << DROP > DOLIST ==> Empty stack > { 2 3 } << DROP > MAP ==> { NOVAL NOVAL } > That < DOLIST yields no output seems to be > not very intuitive. The {NOVAL NOVAL} looks slightly > better, but the most natural output seems to be > the empty list. Yes, had I been employed in the 48G development team in Corvallis, I certainly would have tried to have the no results case for DOLIST return an empty list, because the lack of returning anything at all creates a significant flaw in the RPL scheme of things, violating that most sacred Commandment of RPL -- thou shalt not leave the programmer with no clue at all as to how many objects might have been returned on the stack! In this case, the command can return as its result either one object (a list) or no object at all, but it leaves no indicator of which way it turned out! This would have been pretty darned easy to fix, also, requiring only the most minor adjustment to what looked like a common ending point for DOLIST, DOSUBS, and even the SEQ command, all of which are blighted by violating said Commandment. I can understand what may have motivated you-know-who to not bother returning an empty list -- sometimes you might employ DOLIST etc. to, well, perhaps purge each one of a list of variables (using either PURGE or PGDIR according to its type), say. By having DOLIST drop the useless empty return list for you, why, you could save one whole extra command (a final DROP), which really sounds like a big convenience, right? The only flaw to this corner-cutting is that many valuable uses for the DOLIST family of commands involve testing each list item, and then returning something or not, independently for each item (example: return a list of items that are common to a pair of original lists). In all such more interesting programs, the user now must perform contortions to get a possibly correct empty list as output, because of how DOLIST etc. won't return an empty list by itself, and gives you no clue at all when it decides not to; fixing this flaw then usually takes much more effort than adding one single DROP command to what otherwise would have been much simpler tasks. Treating an empty input list as an error seemed also to be unfortunate; there is a reason why SigmaLIST, PiLIST and STREAM are logically unable to accept empty input lists, but why impose that same handicap on DOLIST etc.? (note that SORT, TAIL, and REVLIST don't choke on empty lists!) As to less than optimal coding of some internal ROM functions, well, of course there is! Life is short, and even if ROM wasn't full, there was plenty that was more important to get done! A more valuable target for optimizing might be MS operating systems :) But I already said all of this before: Normalizing DOLIST & DOSUBS 1996/05/27 http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=4objjg%24cq5%40news.iastate.edu http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4oavin%246vr%40news.iastate.edu http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4oelu5%248an%40news.iastate.edu Surprises about SEQ (plus coding fix for the end of DOLIST etc.): http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6f7r50%24qdq%241%40news.iastate.edu By the way, it may also be noted that SigmaLIST and PiLIST (sum and product of list elements) won't even accept a list of *one* element! (Error: Invalid Dimension!) Man, isn't it frustrating enough to have to deal every day with the equally skewed mindset of the folks at MS? And likewise, a mindset of similarly ineffective ways of dealing with the entire world, from most of those who live on it. Everyone on board our Spaceship Earth can live abundantly and successfully... Humanity has the option to make it. We must choose it before it expires... Whether it is to be Utopia or Oblivion will be a touch-and-go relay race right up to the final moment. - Buckminster Fuller 1980 When I was born, humanity was 95 per cent illiterate. Since I've been born, the population has doubled and that total population is now 65 per cent literate. That's a gain of 130-fold of the literacy. When humanity is primarily illiterate, it needs leaders to understand and get the information and deal with it. When we are at the point where the majority of humans themselves are literate, able to get the information, we're in an entirely new relationship to the Universe. We are at the point where the integrity of the individual counts, and not what the political leadership or the religious leadership says to do. It's a matter now of humanity getting to the point where it's now qualifying to make some of its own decisions in relation to its own information. That's why we've come to a new moment of integrity. http://www.bfi.org http://www.bfi.org/operating_manual.htm http://www.mum.edu . ==== > By the way, it may also be noted that SigmaLIST and PiLIST > (sum and product of list elements) won't even accept > a list of *one* element! (Error: Invalid Dimension!) Easy. 0 + SigmaLIST 1 + PiLIST Nick. ==== > sum and product of list elements) won't even accept > a list of *one* element! (Error: Invalid Dimension!) > Easy. > 0 + SigmaLIST > 1 + PiLIST What a mathematician! You completely neglect the generality of SigmaLIST. Since this has already been discussed in detail by JHM, I add only some comments. IMHO, the simplest way to treat at least 1-element lists is a reprogramming of SigmaL as follows: << PTR 19443 (CheckList on the 48, PTR 3F3C1 on the 49) IFFERR xSigmaList THEN xHEAD > Yes, without the xEND, it's not required. And in the present case, the UsrRPL IFFERR is better then the SysRPL command ERRSET. Mathematicians go up the wall if seeing that Sigmalist does not treat 1-element lists at least. Precisely speaking, SigmaLIST is an operator defined on the set of finite sequences of elements of an arbitrary additive semigroup (need not be commutative). And { x } Sigmalist always equals x, where x denotes any member of the semigroup. Whether SigmaLIST can reasonably be defined on the empty sequence depends on whether the semigroup has a Zero (a neutral element) or not. If it has, {} SigmalLIST should equal Zero. E.g., in the semigroups of character strings, the Zero is the empty string, in the semigroup of real or complex numbers, the Zero is the number 0. In the semigroup of reals with respect to multiplication, it is the real 1. Sometimes it may be useful to let {} SigmaLIST undefined, like 0^0, for instance. ==== > sum and product of list elements) won't even accept > a list of *one* element! (Error: Invalid Dimension!) > > Easy. > 0 + SigmaLIST > 1 + PiLIST What a mathematician! > You completely neglect the generality of SigmaLIST. Only because many of the posted questions are related to numbers in lists. Nick. ==== NK: [re summing 1-element lists] > 0 + SigmaLIST > 1 + PiLIST Valid only if you know in advance that you are restricting input only to lists of *numbers* (see below). In that case, how about these, for possible empty lists as well: 0 + 0 + SigmaLIST 1 + 1 + PiLIST But let's take a closer look: { 1 2 3 } SigmaLIST = 6 { 1 2 } SigmaLIST = 3 { 1 } SigmaLIST = 1 But this errors! { } SigmaLIST = 0 ? Also errors. { [1] [2] [3] } SigmaLIST = [6] { [1] [2] } SigmaLIST = [3] { [1] } SigmaLIST = [1] But this errors! { } SigmaLIST = [0] ? Also errors. { 1 2 3 } SigmaLIST = 123 { 1 2 } SigmaLIST = 12 { 1 } SigmaLIST = 1 But this errors! { } SigmaLIST = ? Also errors. Note that to handle more general one-element lists, the simplest, more general work-around might be: << IF DUP SIZE 1. == THEN 1. GET ELSE SigmaLIST END > However, note that this doesn't trap { << program > } as invalid input, which might have been the original 48G rationale for the slightly lazy rejection by ROM coding of summing (or taking the product of) any 1-element lists at all; in fact, these are implemented essentially identically to the STREAM command, which also balks on empty or single-element lists. There is *no* way to properly handle the general case of summing an empty list, as can be seen by the fact that each of the above three examples of { } SigmaLIST seems to suggest a different answer! In other words, with an empty list, the unanswerable question remains: an empty list of what null-value object ? Or, what is the sound of nothing clapping? . ==== > NK: [re summing 1-element lists] 0 + SigmaLIST > 1 + PiLIST Valid only if you know in advance that you are restricting input > only to lists of *numbers* (see below). In that case, how about these, for possible empty lists as well: 0 + 0 + SigmaLIST > 1 + 1 + PiLIST > Indeed, even better. But.... > But let's take a closer look: { 1 2 3 } SigmaLIST = 6 > { 1 2 } SigmaLIST = 3 > { 1 } SigmaLIST = 1 But this errors! > { } SigmaLIST = 0 ? Also errors. { [1] [2] [3] } SigmaLIST = [6] > { [1] [2] } SigmaLIST = [3] > { [1] } SigmaLIST = [1] But this errors! > { } SigmaLIST = [0] ? Also errors. { 1 2 3 } SigmaLIST = 123 > { 1 2 } SigmaLIST = 12 > { 1 } SigmaLIST = 1 But this errors! > { } SigmaLIST = ? Also errors. Note that to handle more general one-element lists, > the simplest, more general work-around might be: << IF DUP SIZE 1. == THEN 1. GET ELSE SigmaLIST END > HEAD would also do in case of 1 element. > However, note that this doesn't trap { << program > } > as invalid input, which might have been the original 48G > rationale for the slightly lazy rejection by ROM coding > of summing (or taking the product of) any 1-element lists at all; > in fact, these are implemented essentially identically to the > STREAM command, which also balks on empty or single-element lists. There is *no* way to properly handle the general case of > summing an empty list, as can be seen by the fact that > each of the above three examples of { } SigmaLIST > seems to suggest a different answer! Notion: { set / operation } for algebraic. { element } for set There is no general way to extend the algebraic structure {{elements}/operation} for the case of the operation acting upon zero elements. In case of one element one can assume that the missing element is the neutral element of the structure. This by deducing that it can't be any different thing because the operation itself is defined over the special kind of elements of the structure itself. When there are no elements at all, this assumption is not very reasonable as there is no way to predict what kind of objects the elements will be that the operation acts upon. So for the example {{numbers}/addition} 0 0 + can be done only when it is already known that gSLIST will operate with a list of numbers. This can be checked if there is at least one element in the list. But if there is nada, then go figure out what the list would/should contain. In the special case of the HP49G, the structure {elements/addition has some additional properties resulting out of overloading the operation + for handling different object types. The kind of object whose type survives any addition with any other object kind is the list itself. Add anything with a list to get a list again. This additional property might suggest to widen the definition to If nada elements -> assume lists as elements to add with each other. So { {}/addition} could be set equivalent to { {{ }}/addition } which then can use the predicting procedure to assume that {{}} gSLIST means {{}{}} gSLIST and return an empty list. But this is also not very general. What about the algebraic structure {{numbers,vectors} multiplication}? What is the neutral emement of this structure? Is it 1.? If the missing element is the vector there is no way of guessing its absence out of { 1 } gPLIST which according to the above would be widened to { 1 1 } gPLIST. Which spits out a number instead of a vector. Possible exit: Cripple gPLIST to accept only lists with a single type of objects. It is *then* that the assumption of survival of the strongest element types can be made without the above problem. But then the engineering population starts complaining again, singing the boring song why can't this be done, the good old days of HP, why did they change that, blah blah, blah blah, blah blah. > In other words, with an empty list, the unanswerable question > remains: an empty list of what null-value object ? > An empty list of nothing. Null set, nema, nada, nix. (Only if the above assumptions are made.) BTW. MAP has also its usefulness. Try it with nested lists in comparison to DOSUBS. >Or, what is the sound of nothing clapping? If silence is in the set of sounds, then silence. Nick. ==== After reading WR and NK, I *think* that we all agree that the sum (or product) of the elements in an empty HP 48/49 list has to remain undefined, but with so much legal-speak and math-speak, it's hard to tell Summarizing in my dumb Merkinese: The sum (or product) of an empty list of I don't know what object type(s) has to be I don't know (Error: Invalid Dimension is close enough :) Like [as] I've been trying to say for six years :) . ==== > After reading WR and NK, I *think* that we all agree that the sum (or product) > of the elements in an empty HP 48/49 list has to remain undefined, > but with so much legal-speak and math-speak, it's hard to tell > It's not hard to tell. Either error out or return an empty list if we assume lists to be the most general object types that can be summed. Second option could/will cause other problems? Nick. ==== [re the sum of an empty list, using SigmaLIST] > Either error out or return an empty list Returning an empty list would be just like returning zero; it presumes to know what type of objects would have been in the list if it hadn't been empty, because only the sum of a list of lists would be a list, just as only the sum of a list of numbers would be a number, only the sum of a list of arrays would be an array, and only the sum of a list of strings would be a string, at least if all the objects are of the same type. But the calculator itself can't know what type of object(s) an empty list would have been a list *of*, so a general built-in HP calculator function like SigmaLIST ought only to error in this general, indeterminate case (which it already does, so leave it be!) Users who have specific applications in mind can, of course, create their own special cases for the type of object they have in mind. By the way, if list elements are of mixed types, then the sum can be a bit strange, e.g.: { 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 } GSLIST ==> 95678 { 2 3 4 { 5 6 } 7 8 } GSLIST ==> { 9 5 6 7 8 } Neither of the above lists is acceptable to SORT (which would error out), but GSLIST and PILIST will swallow anything that they are fed :) [r->] [OFF] . ==== > [re the sum of an empty list, using SigmaLIST] Either error out or return an empty list Returning an empty list would be just like returning zero; > it presumes to know what type of objects would have been > in the list if it hadn't been empty, because > only the sum of a list of lists would be a list, > just as only the sum of a list of numbers would be a number, > only the sum of a list of arrays would be an array, > and only the sum of a list of strings would be a string, > at least if all the objects are of the same type. Mmm, not really... Lists survive any addition. List + AnyObject = List. It is only this reason for which I think that they are the most general type of object that can be used as operand of +. And so, according to this questionable criterion, I thought that if something has to be returned in this case, then the most general object of all that can be added, the list. > But the calculator itself can't know what type of object(s) > an empty list would have been a list *of*, so a general > built-in HP calculator function like SigmaLIST > ought only to error in this general, indeterminate case > (which it already does, so leave it be!) That's right, the calc (thanks heavens) still doesn't know what kind of objects we didn't give it to add. No wish to change the existing behavior, only wondering what if.. Mathematica for example allows to define functions using default values in case they are used without arguments. > Users who have specific applications in mind > can, of course, create their own special cases > for the type of object they have in mind. Yep. > By the way, if list elements are of mixed types, > then the sum can be a bit strange, e.g.: { 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 } GSLIST ==> 95678 { 2 3 4 { 5 6 } 7 8 } GSLIST ==> { 9 5 6 7 8 } Why strange? Number + String = String Number + List = List GSLIST complies pairwise to the rules of + in this cases. Or should it return 2345678 and {2 3 4 5 6 7 8 }? > Neither of the above lists is acceptable to SORT > (which would error out), but GSLIST and PILIST > will swallow anything that they are fed :) > { 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 } PILIST errors, OK the HP49G doesn't know how to multiply strings with numbers and we are not allowed to easily change the built-in definitions. But { 2 3 4 { 5 6 } 7 8 } also errors, while according to the same pairwise compliance it could return { 6720 8064 } (??) Well, as long as we can << * > STREAM, be it that way and let GSLIST and PILIST eat, digest and **** what they want. :) Nick. ==== > Returning an empty list would be just like returning zero; > it presumes to know what type of objects would have been > in the list if it hadn't been empty, because > only the sum of a list of lists would be a list, > just as only the sum of a list of numbers would be a number, > only the sum of a list of arrays would be an array, > and only the sum of a list of strings would be a string, > at least if all the objects are of the same type. > Mmm, not really... Lists survive any addition. > List + AnyObject = List. Did I not say above, at least if all the objects are of the same type? (then I illustrated what mixed types can produce, which is more weird than mere rearrangement). Listen, you send me a blank check (the sum of an empty set of words), and I'll fill in what I feel like writing, too > It is only this reason for which I think that they are the most > general type of object that can be used as operand of +. And so, > according to this questionable criterion, ... Questionable indeed; I'll second that! > I thought that if something has to be returned in this case.. Does a drink vending machine *have* to give me something if I neither put anything in nor even choose a flavor? > then the most general object of all that can be added, the list. So hey, the most general type of number that can be returned is a complex-valued number, which can be added to any other type of number, so in the same spirit, I propose that all results of arithmetic (especially if zero) should be returned as a complex number object! Now we're talkin' real math !!! > Mathematica for example allows to define functions using default > values in case they are used without arguments. Who defines it -- the vendor hard-codes it into the product, or *allows* you to make your *own* definition? (same logic applies to what I was saying) > By the way, if list elements are of mixed types, > then the sum can be a bit strange, e.g.: { 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 } GSLIST ==> 95678 { 2 3 4 { 5 6 } 7 8 } GSLIST ==> { 9 5 6 7 8 } > Why strange? Although it is the inevitable result of using STREAM (and of going left to right), the fact remains: Elements preceding the odd object get combined into one item, while elements following the odd object are preserved; this is a bit more non-commutativity than normal, and I would regard it as just as reasonable for the calc to error out, if it wanted to, just as it does for SORT (or you *could* liberalize SORT to allow sorting anything, too; perhaps return an empty list to represent the total generality of not having any idea what the answer should be :) > Well, as long as we can << * > STREAM, be it that way and let GSLIST > and PILIST eat, digest and **** what they want. :) Yes, and let { } GSLIST return the same as { } << + > STREAM, which it does, thank heaven for this bit of sanity [r->] [OFF] . ==== Returning an empty list would be just like returning zero; > it presumes to know what type of objects would have been > in the list if it hadn't been empty, because > only the sum of a list of lists would be a list, > just as only the sum of a list of numbers would be a number, > only the sum of a list of arrays would be an array, > and only the sum of a list of strings would be a string, > at least if all the objects are of the same type. > Mmm, not really... Lists survive any addition. > List + AnyObject = List. Did I not say above, > at least if all the objects are of the same type? > (then I illustrated what mixed types can produce, > which is more weird than mere rearrangement). If we consider GSLIST to be an automation of the built-in + for adding any objects in a list that the HP can add, then we follow the rules which + knows for adding objects. For common + anything added to a list will return a list, and that's why I think that even with mixed types of objects the list is the most general outcome of +. (I didn't stay at same object types, sorry.) > Listen, you send me a blank check (the sum of an empty set of words), > and I'll fill in what I feel like writing, too It was not blank, it was another language. Presumably all greek to you? > It is only this reason for which I think that they are the most > general type of object that can be used as operand of +. And so, > according to this questionable criterion, ... Questionable indeed; I'll second that! But not so questionable as you might think. (Look at algebraic structures.) > I thought that if something has to be returned in this case.. Does a drink vending machine *have* to give me something > if I ? That depends on the definition of drink vending machine. If the drink vending machine is of type algebraic structure, then it might return something. The part neither put anything in nor even choose a flavor is wrong. Of course you put something in. That is the empty list and the key press GSLIST. But the more important thing here is that we start again making shitty analogies. I don't care what a drink vending machine would do and I'll not consider algebraic structures with the aid of drink vending machines. > then the most general object of all that can be added, the list. So hey, the most general type of number that can be returned > is a complex-valued number, which can be added to any other > type of number, so in the same spirit, I propose that all > results of arithmetic (especially if zero) should be returned > as a complex number object! Now we're talkin' real math !!! We are not talking about numbers but about any object that can be used as an operand for +. Since lists are the objects that always retain their type when added, they are somehow distinct from all other objects. They are more general as output object types of the built-in +. The command GSLIST is apply + to each pair of elements in a list, so when we already have enough operants for +, we have the result according to the built-in rules of the HP-addition, which is *not* the usual mathematic defined addition. When we have only 1 operand, we return the operand itself, assuming that the missing operand is the neutral element of the algebraic structure { { obj} +}. This is 0 for numbers, for string etc. When there is no operand, we use the list as the most general operand to +, then use another empty list as the neutral element of list addition as defined on the HP (previous rule), and then return an empty list. So, the two necessary rules for extending + to 1 or 0 operands are: 1) Case of 1 operand: Add it to the neutral element of {{operandType} +} 2) Case of 0 operands: Assume existence of {} as the most general thing that can be added on the HP, and then use (1) They seem to be able to work. I don't declare these rules to be the best possible, I only think about extending the built in + and in consequence the built-in GSLIST and have no better idea. When you already have two real numbers, then you are at { {reals} + } and because in this case the + is the same like math defined addition of reals, you simply get the real result. (Exactly the same for {{complex} +} etc.) Why do you compare the case 1 or 0 operands for + with the case 2 operands for +? If with real math you refer ironically to what I said, then it's your right to find that shit. But if you refer ironically to the concept of mathematics as a whole, then remember please that even your treasured HP48GX wouldn't exist without this real math. > Mathematica for example allows to define functions using default > values in case they are used without arguments. Who defines it -- the vendor hard-codes it into the product, > or *allows* you to make your *own* definition? > (same logic applies to what I was saying) Not the vendor, the user. You make your *own* definitions that are then vary tightly integrated in the rest of the CAS. You can even change the built in definition of, say *. Look: Unprotect[Prod[]] Prod[string1_, string2_]:=AddString[string1,string2] Protect[Prod[]] { 2 3 4 { 5 6 } 7 8 } GSLIST ==> { 9 5 6 7 8 } > > Why strange? Although it is the inevitable result of using STREAM > (and of going left to right), the fact remains: Elements preceding the odd object get combined into one item, > while elements following the odd object are preserved; > this is a bit more non-commutativity than normal, > and I would regard it as just as reasonable for the > calc to error out, if it wanted to, just as it does for SORT > (or you *could* liberalize SORT to allow sorting anything, too; > perhaps return an empty list to represent the total generality > of not having any idea what the answer should be :) The underlying operation + *is* already non-commutative for the argument type combination number, string. 3 5 + is not 3 5 +. So { 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 } GSLIST ==> 95678 is in perfect agreement to addition as defined on the HP, which is not the same definition like the mathematic one. You talk in the same context about GSLIST and SORT considering how they react when they are given lists of intermixed object types, but there are basic differences. There addition of a string and a number *is* defined in HP, but not the sorting of intermixed strings and numbers. We can't follow the same rules for GSLIST and SORT. I don't say that the definition of sorting numbers and strings can't be done, I say that it hasn't been done in the HP. So while in HP the structure {{numbers strings} +} exist, the structure {{{numbers strings}} SORT } doesn't exist. It would be nice if we could somehow easily modify SORT, to deal also with lists of numbers and strings but we can't. (Or is there any way to do so?) > Well, as long as we can << * > STREAM, be it that way and let GSLIST > and PILIST eat, digest and **** what they want. :) Yes, and let { } GSLIST return the same as { } << + > STREAM, > which it does, thank heaven for this bit of sanity What is insane in trying to think about possible extensions of + for 0 or 1 arguments? > [r->] [OFF] > Up and running, Nick. ==== X > When we have only 1 > operand, we return the operand itself, assuming that the missing > operand is the neutral element of the algebraic structure { { obj} +}. > This is 0 for numbers, for string etc. Yes! When there is only one object in the list to be multiplied or summed returning the object itself would be a good fix. > When there is no operand, we > use the list as the most general operand to +, then use another empty > list as the neutral element of list addition as defined on the HP > (previous rule), and then return an empty list. Returning empty list { } or generating an error? A hard decision...may I suggest yet another flag for error (the default action) overriding? > The underlying operation + *is* already non-commutative for the > argument type combination number, string. 3 5 + is not 3 5 +. So { > 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 } GSLIST ==> 95678 is in perfect agreement to > addition as defined on the HP, which is not the same definition like > the mathematic one. I think that a general object summation and/or product is the operation and that operation is non-commutative. OR - is a programming language structure for..next -loop commutative? ??? ==== > Returning empty list { } or generating an error? > A hard decision...may I suggest yet another flag for > error (the default action) overriding? An error is also a good mechanism for rounding up the behavior of GSLIST and it can also have advantages in many cases. I was only thinking about a possible concept of operation of GSLIST without having to error out when not even one element exists in the list. Additional flag you say? There are some unused flags on the HP49G, so why not? After all that would make the HP49G even more controlable by the users. BTW, there are already enough flags for a periodic system of system flags for the HP49G, and their 2^128 combounds > The underlying operation + *is* already non-commutative for the > argument type combination number, string. 3 5 + is not 3 5 +. So { > 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 } GSLIST ==> 95678 is in perfect agreement to > addition as defined on the HP, which is not the same definition like > the mathematic one. I think that a general object summation and/or product is the operation > and that operation is non-commutative. > OR - is a programming language structure for..next -loop commutative? > ??? Exactly so, only the special case of normal addition of numbers is commutative and it has to be if we want to have calcs that behave mathematically correct. But as you say, in the general case of adding strings and numbers and lists and what so ever, we can't expect commutativity. About the commutativity of FOR...NEXT, what an interesting question! in such cases. The arguments to FOR are two numbers and one name and the result depends not only on these arguments but also to what happens in the loop body, which is not argument to FOR, but on the other hand could be considered argument to the whole FOR..NEXT. Hey, I know what I'll be doing in the weekend. Loopings, Nick. ==== READ about SigmaLIST: > When we have only 1 > operand, we return the operand itself, assuming that the missing > operand is the neutral element of the algebraic structure { { obj} +}. A totally screwed view of things. There are many algebraic structures (more precisely, semigroups) in the mathematical and even the real world which don't have a neutral element. Understand first the basic concept of an operator defined on the domain of non-empty sequences of elements of some set or type of objects. That these sequences can be identified with the 48/49 nonempty lists is obvious. Observe also that these sequences or lists form itself a (not commutative) semigroup with respect to concatenation, likewise denoted by +. In higher mathematics, the Sigma-operator, usually denoted by a bold-printed Sigma, is recursively defined with respect to an arbitrary additive semigroup A as follows where S denotes the domain of Sigma consisting of the finite (non-empty) sequences of elements of A, or non-empty lists if you like: Sigma {x} = x Sigma {x_o ... x_n+1} = Sigma {x_o ... x_n} + x_n+1 Dedekind's famous Recursion theorem (1888) tells us for the present case that there is *one and only one* operator whose domain of definition is the whole S and whose range of values is a subset of A which satisfies these two equations. Actually the range of values is also the whole A in the present case. As is seen from this definition, the logically correct stack diagram of Sigmalist for a singleton { x } on level 1 is { x } SigmaLIST -> x The smallest program to realize this behaviour of the current SigmaLIST is the Extended UsrRPL proggram IFERR SigmaLIST THEN HEAD (UsrRPL PRG-delimiters and a final END are dispensable). In modern computers, the interpretation of the + symbol depends solely on its arguments. This convention is also useful in everday life. There we meet semigroups called *domains of magnitudes*, like lenght, mass, volumina etc, considered already by the ancient Greek mathematicians (who seemingly had a deeper understanding of mathematics than some contemporary Greeks). The operation of adding magnitudes of the same kind is denoted by + as well. The famous Archimedean axiom postulates that if a,b are two magnitudes of the same kind, there is always a number n such that n a > b. Here n a is the n-fold repetition of of + appied to a. Measuring magnitudes with real numbers is essentially based on the Archimedean axiom. ==== > READ about SigmaLIST: X > In higher mathematics, the Sigma-operator, usually denoted by > a bold-printed Sigma, is recursively defined with respect to an > arbitrary additive semigroup A as follows where S denotes the > domain of Sigma consisting of the finite (non-empty) sequences > of elements of A, or non-empty lists if you like: Sigma {x} = x > Sigma {x_o ... x_n+1} = Sigma {x_o ... x_n} + x_n+1 I think SigmaLIST is for LIST of objects summation, more of a programming language command than math and that the math thing is the Summation Sigma, which also understands symbolic sums. ==== > I think SigmaLIST is for LIST of objects summation, > more of a programming language command than math One of your typical scrams. Do you really think that programming language commands have nothing do do with higher math? I claim that commands like SigmaLIST cannot be fully understood without a minimum of training in abstract thinking. My advice is first to read my post thorouhgly and then comment ==== > I think SigmaLIST is for LIST of objects summation, > more of a programming language command than math One of your typical scrams. Do you really think Scram? Yeah - my reactor (=brains) was shut down in emergency when I saw your math explanations. Does it always have to be that _complicated. To me SigmaLIST is a FOR..NEXT (or any) loop eg. a programming language structure and I would approach using CS rather than math. nevertheless there was no flaw per se in your explanations and I was not arguing about their valitidy just giving this forum a glimpse of my simplified pow of the particular command. Cheez! What do YOU want me to comment? I'm not at your level in math and I doubt I never will be. Have a nice day. > that programming language commands have nothing > do do with higher math? I claim that commands like > SigmaLIST cannot be fully understood without a > minimum of training in abstract thinking. My > advice is first to read my post thorouhgly and > then comment ==== > One of your typical scrams. Do you really think > Scram? Yeah - my reactor (=brains) was shut down in emergency > when I saw your math explanations. Does it always have to be that > _complicated. To me SigmaLIST is a FOR..NEXT (or any) loop > eg. a programming language structure and I would approach > using CS rather than math. OK Veli, you know I like you and your postings The only problem is you're too easily influenced by people discussing things they'd better mute upon. Do not believe that in math and in particular in the SigmaLIST command there is something like a missing argument. Expressing oneself in this way mystifies things which in reality are completely clear, having understood the concept of a recursive definition. I didn't discuss the relationship between SigmaLIST and the sole Sigma command. IMHO, the latter could have been programmed more general, to cover also summation in all available semigroup like SigmaLIST, not only in the rings R, C or the ring of algebraics. On the additive semigroup of algebraics, both SigmaLIST and Sigma seem to do the same. Clearly, Sigmalist need not defining additional arguments of Sigma like lower and upper summation index as is seen from the recursive definition of SigmaLIST I gave in the previous post. Thus, in one direction, Sigmalist is more general, but general. It would perhaps pay to compare these two commands more closely. Have a nice day as well, Wolfgang PS. Not necessary to grasp everything I talked about But mathematicians working on computer algebraic systems need to know still much more on algebra and its relationship to programming as indicated above ... ==== Seen: > The part neither put anything in nor even choose a flavor is wrong. > Of course you put something in. That is the empty list > and the key press GSLIST. You think you are summing the list itself; I think the command is supposed to sum only what is *inside* the list, so when nothing is inside, and when sum can be of many different result types, no outcome is defined for me. > I'll not consider algebraic structures... I never knew that an HP calc list object was an algebraic structure, after all, even if a list of strings. Oh, well, on another note, the microsoft.com site itself has become unreadable at 800x600, at which all the text is now also greeked (turns into indistinct characters which no longer mean anything). -[]- . ==== > Seen: The part neither put anything in nor even choose a flavor is wrong. > Of course you put something in. That is the empty list > and the key press GSLIST. You think you are summing the list itself; > I think the command is supposed to sum only what is *inside* the list, > so when nothing is inside, and when sum can be of many different > result types, no outcome is defined for me. For the third and last time: If a list doesn't contain anything and we give such a list to GSLIST, then we have the operation + with no operands. Because of the generality of lists as arguments to +, we *assume* that the null arguments defaults to one emptly list as element in the original list that we gave GSLIST. That is from {} GSLIST we default to { {} } GSLIST. For the second missing argument we use the neutral element for list addition which is again an empty list, that is from { {} } GSLIST we move to { {} {} } GSLIST, which then has the result {}. The above is not even a suggestion but rather trying to think about how to avoid problems with GSLIST by ways based on some elementary rules that already exist in the inner wolrd of the 49G. > I'll not consider algebraic structures... I never knew that an HP calc list object was an algebraic structure, > after all, even if a list of strings. The algebraic structure is not the list alone, but the list elements seen as members of a set in conjunction with some operation (in this case +) that is carried out on the elements of the list. The operation + has such a wealth of additional properties compared to plain number addition, that you can not only talk about algebraic structures, but even face problems like the above. > Oh, well, on another note, the microsoft.com site itself > has become unreadable at 800x600, at which all the text > is now also greeked (turns into indistinct characters > which no longer mean anything). Hurrah! MS is a greek company! (Though I would prefer Apple.) Nick. ==== X > There is *no* way to properly handle the general case of > summing an empty list, as can be seen by the fact that > each of the above three examples of { } SigmaLIST > seems to suggest a different answer! In other words, with an empty list, the unanswerable question > remains: an empty list of what null-value object ? X NOVAL ? Veli-Pekka ==== HPHP48-R..., R so that? -Dante. (Excuses by my english, and my old fashioned question.) ==== Vojtech Sazel Dante Aron.92 C. p.92se v diskusn.92m pr.92spevku HPHP48-R..., R so that? -Dante. (Excuses by my english, and my old fashioned question.) --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). ==== I have an equation that the CAS (on my 49g) worked out to be: (2*rho*g*H+(2*P+rho*V^2))/(2*rho*g)=2*V^2/g (where 'rho' = alpha, Rshift, F) Probably a rather insignificant thing, but is there any way of making it look more like this? P/(rho*g)+V^2/(2*g)+H=(2*V)^2/(2*g) thanks to anyone who can be bothered to try. ==== I have an equation that the CAS (on my 49g) worked out to be: (2*rho*g*H+(2*P+rho*V^2))/(2*rho*g)=2*V^2/g (where 'rho' = alpha, Rshift, F) Probably a rather insignificant thing, but is there any way of making it > look more like this? P/(rho*g)+V^2/(2*g)+H=(2*V)^2/(2*g) thanks to anyone who can be bothered to try. If you use the FDISTRIB command on the equation, the left hand side will be more like what you want. Because of cancellation, the right hand side will tend to reduce to 2*V^2/g regardless even if you manually edit it to the form you want. ==== Good old Bernouli. I had a hard test today about such things. The Left side: On my ti89 propfrac accomplishes your goal perfectly. On my 49g propFrac does nothing, except re-order the terms in the numerator. Using partial fraction expansion command on the 49g I can get the H alone but not the other two terms. The right side: The right side is accomplished by multiplying (2*V^2/g) by 1. Or instead of 1 the fraction 2/2. Thus you get 2^2*v^2/(2g) or (2v)^2/(2g). Besides multiplying the numerator and denominator seperately, there is not a command to accomplish this. -Samuel I have an equation that the CAS (on my 49g) worked out to be: (2*rho*g*H+(2*P+rho*V^2))/(2*rho*g)=2*V^2/g (where 'rho' = alpha, Rshift, F) Probably a rather insignificant thing, but is there any way of making it > look more like this? P/(rho*g)+V^2/(2*g)+H=(2*V)^2/(2*g) thanks to anyone who can be bothered to try. ==== > propFrac does nothing, except re-order the terms in the numerator. > Using partial fraction expansion command on the 49g I can get the H > alone but not the other two terms. Not really! Put your calc in exact mode go into the EQW, select the left hand side, press the TOOL key, press NEXT, select CMDS and choose PARTFRAC (partial fractions expansion). The terms are broken down to what you would like them to. So simple! !Demeter! ==== nice to see people from TI on the hp board. congrats on the hail 1.00 release! i use it a considerable amount. User RPL is frying my brain - too many years of TI basic....and btw, YAPT saved my life on several chem tests - only because of it do i have the highest grade in my class. YOU ROCK. avid fan, Louis > Good old Bernouli. I had a hard test today about such things. > The Left side: On my ti89 propfrac accomplishes your goal perfectly. On my 49g > propFrac does nothing, except re-order the terms in the numerator. > Using partial fraction expansion command on the 49g I can get the H > alone but not the other two terms. > The right side: The right side is accomplished by multiplying (2*V^2/g) by 1. Or > instead of 1 the fraction 2/2. Thus you get 2^2*v^2/(2g) or > (2v)^2/(2g). Besides multiplying the numerator and denominator > seperately, there is not a command to accomplish this. I have an equation that the CAS (on my 49g) worked out to be: (2*rho*g*H+(2*P+rho*V^2))/(2*rho*g)=2*V^2/g (where 'rho' = alpha, Rshift, F) Probably a rather insignificant thing, but is there any way of making it > look more like this? P/(rho*g)+V^2/(2*g)+H=(2*V)^2/(2*g) thanks to anyone who can be bothered to try. ==== I was wondering if anyone could make a phoenix game like the one on the ti 89, u kill the baddies, and u get money, and at the end of the level theres a store and u buy upgrades and weopons and life, the pheonix for the 49g is not like that, anyone willin to do that? ==== > I was wondering if anyone could make a phoenix game like the one on > the ti 89, u kill the baddies, and u get money, and at the end of the > level theres a store and u buy upgrades and weopons and life, the > pheonix for the 49g is not like that, anyone willin to do that? Why don't you do it? Learn TICC and Basic. C++ wouldn't even be bad to learn while you're at it. When you write the game, post it at HPCalc, then all of us Mathematicians and Engineers will calculate the amount of time it will take before some poor kid (who can't afford a Playstation2) will download it, play it, and realize that calculators are not meant for coding or playing games. Wait a minute, as a side thought, buy a Gameboy Advance for US $70. Then you won't have to learn how to code, and you can have your temporary pleasure. That's what they were made for anyways! Aaron ==== > I was wondering if anyone could make a phoenix game like the one on > the ti 89, u kill the baddies, and u get money, and at the end of the > level theres a store and u buy upgrades and weopons and life, the > pheonix for the 49g is not like that, anyone willin to do that? Please don't insult this newsgroup by asking if there are any good programmers in this NG. Who do you think posts here? How about the people who porgrammed the HP calulator operating systems. They post here quite regularly. And don't double insult them by asking if they will code a game for YOU. And lastly, try searching HPCalc before posting lame questions like this. Go out and buy a GameBoy. Enough of my bitching, have a nice day. Aaron ==== i imagine if anyone wanted to play phoenix they would buy an 89 - or perhaps just buy a computer and play some real games. why don't you and ask him to do it? He's already ported it to casios. Oh wait that would be annoying . . . Learn some machine code and then come back later for help, eh? I really don't need this relatively intelligent newsgroups polluted by the game requests that have destroyed the TI boards. Engineering is a lot more fun anyway. -Louis > I was wondering if anyone could make a phoenix game like the one on > the ti 89, u kill the baddies, and u get money, and at the end of the > level theres a store and u buy upgrades and weopons and life, the > pheonix for the 49g is not like that, anyone willin to do that? ==== > Learn some machine code and then come back later for help, eh? I > really don't need this relatively intelligent newsgroups polluted by > the game requests that have destroyed the TI boards. Engineering is a lot more fun anyway. -Louis Atleast he's not posting about getting rich in 30 days or porn. :) ==== Mike Richards (the author) to no avail. I'd love to be able to use this program if I could get it into the calc. ==== Is there any way to get this in the HP49: Derivative with respect to x of: x^2+y^2 --> 2x+2ydy dx ==== > Is there any way to get this in the HP49: Derivative with respect to x of: x^2+y^2 --> 2x+2ydy > dx Enter x^2+y(x)^2 . This way you let the HP49G know that y depends on x. Now you can enter x and press DERIV to get 2*x+2*y(x)*d1(y(x)) , where d1(y(x)) means dy/dx. ==== You have the reason, it also serve in the 48S/SX. (S/SX: A, B, C, ... E) (G/GX: P, R) ==== Since I didn't find the optimal Keytime on my 49 I first programmed a Keytime toggler as follows: << IFERR ->KEYTIME THEN KEYTIME-> END > The real appearing on the stack may quickly be corrected. Thus, the program runs excellent. It is, however, a bit long and presents a good example to explain to the UsrRPL-freeks the benefit of Extended UsrRPL, realized by ->XU from OT49 (which is more than a trivial PRG-delimiter-stripper). Process the above program with ->XU. Then explode it with 3tog from OT49 and deleate the EMD from the runstream. The program resultig from applying 3tog again is a typical ExtUsrRPL program. It is 7.5 bytes smaller than the above and looks as follows (in normal stack view, flag -85 clear): IFERR ->KEYTIME THEN KEYTIME-> This is the smallest and fastest program serving as a stand-alone Keytime toggler. Store it in ~KT. Yes, both the program delimiters and the END are dispensable. Clearly, editing ~KT and trying to recompile it with ENTER fails - the program will evaluate. One has first to convert it into either a list or a user-metaobject with 3tog. I mention that ->XU and 3tog belong also to OT48. PS. ~KT as programmed above is even much better than the equally short SysRPL program :: ERRSET ->KEYTIME ERRTRAP KEYTIME-> ; Indeed, the UsrRPL command xIFERR is very intelligent programmed. A mere ERRSET would be too simple ==== Check it out: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/museum/personalsystems/index.htm and don't miss the 9100A, the Abacus HP-35 and what the HP-110 cost! HPCC member #1046 ( http://www.hpcc.org ) - ==== > Check it out: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/museum/personalsystems/index.htm and don't miss the 9100A, the Abacus HP-35 and what the HP-110 cost! HPCC member #1046 ( http://www.hpcc.org ) > - Looking at all those legacy sites, exposing the old miracles, I don't know if I should be happy because of the great stories, or be sad because it somehow looks like HP doing no more than showing the same old proud stories again and again. Like Greeks telling again and again about their history, maths and so on, while today the picture is...well, quite different ==== > Check it out: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/museum/personalsystems/index.htm and don't miss the 9100A, the Abacus HP-35 and what the HP-110 cost! HPCC member #1046 ( http://www.hpcc.org ) > - I want one of those HP-35 Abacus'! That is sweet! I bet I could make a HP-49G Abacus, sell it to HP and make lots of money! :) ==== I'm continuing a project of mine, but I don't remember some tricks... In fact I need to use the GOINA pseudo instruction in assembly, however, it's not implemented in sasm, does anyone know how to simulate it ? (or how to do a macro doing it?) The Fugitive (not anymore) ==== What is the p/n for the cable the connects the HP 49 to a PC for doing updates? --marc ==== The N/P of serial cable is ... HP-F1897A. Please see ... http://ca-on.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=enrico *** > What is the p/n for the cable the connects the HP 49 to a PC for doing > updates? > --marc I'm new to the HP49g, and am trying to install ECLIB(L1001). I have BZ+49 installed, But am not sure how to use it to decompress ECLIB. Could someone walk me through this. My own attempts have resulted in ECLIB being installed. It runs, but hitting the [NXT] key locks it up and I am unable to choose the equation I want. ==== what is the effect of -64 flag over GETI and PUTI commands? because I clear and try, set and try, and I see no changes in my user guide explains the effects, but i cant understand it GETI: -64 flag clear {list} index --> {list} index+1 obj GETI: -64 flag set {list} index --> {list} index+1 obj same result help! ==== Juli.87n Kaihara escribi.97 en el mensaje > what is the effect of -64 flag over GETI and PUTI commands? > because I clear and try, set and try, and I see no changes in my user guide... ==== aunque no entendi muy bien la respuesta, lo voy a intentar... I don«t understand the answer, but i«m gonna try... ==== > I don«t understand the answer, but i«m gonna try... Flag -64 does not control GETI and PUTI. The opposite is true. Every time you use the GETI or PUTI command, flag -64 gets set or cleared *by the calculator*. You should only *test* flag -64, not set or clear it (but you may if you desire, of course). Setting flag -64 or clearing it has no effect on the operation of GETI or PUTI. GETI -64 FS? and PUTI -64 FS? will return a TRUE if the pointer just wrapped around back to the beginning of the array, or a FALSE if the pointer is still advancing forward through the array. Hope that made sense! -Joe- Micro-challenge: Setting and clearing flag -64 *does* have an effect on one built-in command. What is it? ==== > Micro-challenge: Setting and clearing flag -64 *does* have an effect on one > built-in command. What is it? Oooh, ooh, I know! FS? or FS?C ==== > Micro-challenge: Setting and clearing flag -64 *does* have an effect on one > built-in command. What is it? Oooh, ooh, I know! FS? or FS?C Oooh, ooh, you're right! I forgot about those! There's another one! (Maybe more?) -Joe- eGOBEEP! ==== > -Joe- > eGOBEEP! Joe, I'm surprised at you -- you, of all people! Didn't you mean eG0BEEP (notice the 3rd character)? -- Myers, Silverlock ==== http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1393519239&ssPageName=ADM E:B:ON:US:1 I'm sorry, but a 15C isn't worth that much. That is just rediculous... Doug ==== Until more people come to the same realization, the prices are still going to be high or get higher. I still look at bids, but I haven't bought anything in months, because there are too many must have at any cost bidders getting in the way of people that are looking for great calcs to use, for a reasonable price. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1393519239&ssPageName=ADM > E:B:ON:US:1 ==== > Until more people come to the same realization, the prices are still going > to be high or get higher. I still look at bids, but I haven't bought > anything in months, because there are too many must have at any cost bidders > getting in the way of people that are looking for great calcs to use, for a > reasonable price. And I agree, but there are many good collectors with spare units for exchanging or selling at reasonable prices: I got my 15c in this way, exchanging for an old Casio that was dreaming in a drawer for ten years... way for people that are looking for great calcs to use, this is calcs with lower collector value (serial number, no exactly MINT condition, etc) BUT perfect work condition. ==== It practically makes me wanna sell off my stuff, which hasn't seen daylight for years :) -[]- . ==== inside program delimeters are being shown with the '%' symbol. For example: << d %2 ->HEADER d %-4 SF2 > instead of << 2 ->HEADER -4 SF2 > The 'd's in the example above represent the derivative symbol. Yes, I have checked the MK flag -21 and it is CLEAR for normal stack display. Can someone please explain this for me? Am I missing something? Doug ==== Douglas Rohm escribi.97 en el mensaje > inside program delimeters are being shown with the '%' symbol. For example: << d %2 ->HEADER d %-4 SF2 instead of << 2 ->HEADER -4 SF2 > I use MK since year 2000 and have`n't seen it. Here are my MK flags got with RCLF2: {# 144115188512064416d# 4d } ==== I would like to know if the metakernel works also on 48SX or does it work only on 48GX and 49g? Andrej ==== It's only compatible on the GX, not SX. Doug > I would like to know if the metakernel works also on 48SX or does it > work only on 48GX and 49g? Andrej ==== a side note, have you tried entering a simple program like the one I listed to see if it does what it does to me? Doug Douglas Rohm escribi.97 en el mensaje > inside program delimeters are being shown with the '%' symbol. For > example: << d %2 ->HEADER d %-4 SF2 instead of << 2 ->HEADER -4 SF2 > I use MK since year 2000 and have`n't seen it. Here are my MK flags got with > RCLF2: > {# 144115188512064416d# 4d } ==== Douglas Rohm escribi.97 en el mensaje On > a side note, have you tried entering a simple program like the one I listed > to see if it does what it does to me? > Yes I did before replaying... but I enter programs and numbers everyday since MK was installed two years ago and never happens. ==== Douglas Rohm escribi.97 en el mensaje > I entered your flag settings and it fixes the problem. When I did RCLF2, > mine was much smaller: #184549448d #0d > btw. Doug P.S. Anyway I can see your STARTUP variable? > Well, two things: - Your problem is due to MK flag 25. If you clear with -25 CF2, the problem will be fixed. If you read in the docs about this flag perhaps you have more succes than I understanding why... - About your smaller flags, I think it is only due to the format for storing the info, but the number of flags is the same. Ah! STARTUP: I write here a simpler version than the one I'm really using: I think I'll have difficulty for explaining the real version, plenty of subprograms callings and IF THEN ELSE branches... In a few lines this is what my STARTUP does: Ç Myflags EVAL STOF2 STOF @ This is for setting my favourite flags, stored in Myflags (HOME) 1 FNT ->MINIFONT @ Sets MK for using UFL font as small font 2 ->HEADER @ Do you guess? :&: F7 ->FONTČ @ Recalls font 7 from wherever it is stored in RAM card 2 and sets MK for using it. I'm new to the HP49G, and am trying to use the CRLIB command. I have read Eric Rechlin's write up, but need to know the syntax of the variables, specifically $TITLE, and $VISIBLE. I have generated a group of programs that would be useful for Electrical Engineering, and want to create a library of them. ==== > I'm new to the HP49G, and am trying to use the CRLIB command. I have read Eric > Rechlin's write up, but need to know the syntax of the variables, specifically > $TITLE, and $VISIBLE. Load OT49. It has the command D<->L for lib-creation by newbees. You need nothing know about the $-variables. Just fill in the inform box but purge your self-made $-variables before Syntax of these variables is controlled by the D<->L command. $TITL must be a string, $VISIBLE a list of file names from the current directory, as well as $HIDDEN. The order of variables in both lists is important, not the order in the directory. Clearly, you have first to read OT49.txt concerning D<->L. With D<->L you can also create HELP text for your lib commands like the ones for the CAT command. And all this in UsrRPL ! (impossible by means of the builtin UsrRPL tools of the 49). Hope this helps Wolfgang ==== Please, download, read the instruction and use my Compiler & Installer UsrRPL Programs from ... http://ca-on.hpcalc.org/hp49/programming/misc/compinstlrpl.zip Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK *** > I'm new to the HP49G, and am trying to use the CRLIB command. I have read Eric > Rechlin's write up, but need to know the syntax of the variables, specifically > $TITLE, and $VISIBLE. Load OT49. It has the command D<->L for lib-creation by newbees. > You need nothing know about the $-variables. Just fill in the > inform box but purge your self-made $-variables before Syntax of these variables is controlled by the D<->L command. > $TITL must be a string, $VISIBLE a list of file names from the > current directory, as well as $HIDDEN. The order of variables > in both lists is important, not the order in the directory. > Clearly, you have first to read OT49.txt concerning D<->L. With D<->L you can also create HELP text for your lib commands > like the ones for the CAT command. And all this in UsrRPL ! > (impossible by means of the builtin UsrRPL tools of the 49). Hope this helps > Wolfgang ==== > Please, download, read the instruction and use my Compiler & Installer > UsrRPL Programs from ... > http://ca-on.hpcalc.org/hp49/programming/misc/compinstlrpl.zip Your information is misleading and your lib is obsolate. You refer to the likewise obsolate ROM 1.18. The first a HP49-newbee should do is to upgrade to ROM 1.19-6. ==== BJRog don't indicate the ROM version. I'm suppose what 1.18 is your version. The ultimate version from HP is 1.18 (C) and my program is referred to this version. Others are Beta version don't represent a guaranty in my case for use. I have a HP49 with serial Number ... ID94........... Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK **** > Please, download, read the instruction and use my Compiler & Installer > UsrRPL Programs from ... > http://ca-on.hpcalc.org/hp49/programming/misc/compinstlrpl.zip Your information is misleading and your lib is obsolate. > You refer to the likewise obsolate ROM 1.18. The first > a HP49-newbee should do is to upgrade to ROM 1.19-6. ==== > BJRog don't indicate the ROM version. I'm suppose what 1.18 is your > version. > The ultimate version from HP is 1.18 (C) and my program is referred to > this version. Others are Beta version don't represent a guaranty in my > case for use. BUT... both the 1.19-5 and 1.19-6 are *much* better and less buggy that the HP Commercial 1.18. HP just shut down ACO and never released any new Commercial ROMs. I think that buy some laws somewhere they have to print new manuals and give them away free so it's too un-profitable to release official new ROMs ever again. Miguel Angel CAPORALINI HERK > **** > Please, download, read the instruction and use my Compiler & Installer > UsrRPL Programs from ... > http://ca-on.hpcalc.org/hp49/programming/misc/compinstlrpl.zip Your information is misleading and your lib is obsolate. > You refer to the likewise obsolate ROM 1.18. The first > a HP49-newbee should do is to upgrade to ROM 1.19-6. ==== Is there a way to jump around in a function from the plot display on the 49G? For example, on the TI-89, I can enter any 'X' value from the keyboard, and the cursor will move to that point on the graph. It is a useful way of reading the value of a function at a given point while still viewing it graphically. Sometimes tracing the function doesn't get the exact point I want, and switching to the table and back is slower for quickchecks. Any advice is appreciated. ==== > Is there a way to jump around in a function from the plot display on the > 49G? For example, on the TI-89, I can enter any 'X' value from the > keyboard, and the cursor will move to that point on the graph. It is a > useful way of reading the value of a function at a given point while still > viewing it graphically. Sometimes tracing the function doesn't get the exact point I want, and > switching to the table and back is slower for quickchecks. Any advice is > appreciated. I don't know any real built-in operation for doing this, but it can be so easily programmed that I consider this an existing feature. ==== Go to your table which is right shift F6. Enter in any value of X you want, and your Y value is displayed. I realize that it is not on the graph, but beggers can't be choosers like my mom always says. Aaron -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -Steven Wright > Is there a way to jump around in a function from the plot display on the > 49G? For example, on the TI-89, I can enter any 'X' value from the > keyboard, and the cursor will move to that point on the graph. It is a > useful way of reading the value of a function at a given point while still > viewing it graphically. Sometimes tracing the function doesn't get the exact point I want, and > switching to the table and back is slower for quickchecks. Any advice is > appreciated. > I don't know any real built-in operation for doing this, but it can be > so easily programmed that I consider this an existing feature. Greetings, > Nick. I am a new user of the HP49G and am trying to install ECLIB. I have installed BZ+49, but cannot seem to unpack ECLIB. Could someone tell me how to do this? is OT49 a better tool for doing this? When I install ECLIB, it works (partially) but will not allow me to use the [NXT] key. It locks up the calculator. I'm sure that I am doing something wrong, but have tried everything I can think of and nothing works. I have upgraded the operating system to 1.19-6. Bruce Rogers ==== Do you know how we can calculate the limit of a function ? But the question is maybe: can we do it ? The manual of the PocketPC application isnot full of informations, Eric ==== I too have the Xpander on my Pocket Pc. If I could figure out how to get the Math KeyPad input to work, I would try to figure it out for you. But every time I press it, I get the Keyboard input instead. Any thoughts on this? ......(15 minutes later)....Okay, now I got it to work. I don't see if you can. Under Adv you have Sums, Integrals, and Derivatives, but no Limit. Now, you can define a function, in which you can keep evaluating it at points closer and closer to the value you want. I know it sucks, but I don't think there is any other way. To define a function with Xpander, enter f(x):=3x+2. or whatever. Then just do f(.1), f(.01), f(.001), etc. Aaron -- Black holes are where God divided by zero. -Steven Wright Do you know how we can calculate the limit of a function ? > But the question is maybe: can we do it ? > The manual of the PocketPC application isnot full of informations, > Eric ==== Do you know how we can calculate the limit of a function ? > But the question is maybe: can we do it ? > The manual of the PocketPC application isnot full of informations, > Eric Mode RPN, latest ROM. Enter expression, enter variable=limit, use function lim. Example: Enter 'SIN(X)/X', then enter 'X=0, then use the function lim. Result is 1. ==== Do you know how we can calculate the limit of a function ? > But the question is maybe: can we do it ? > The manual of the PocketPC application isnot full of informations, > Eric > Mode RPN, latest ROM. > Enter expression, enter variable=limit, use function lim. > Example: > Enter 'SIN(X)/X', then enter 'X=0, then use the function lim. > Result is 1. it would work if Xpander came at least with hp49 emulator :)) have fun, J.Manrique ==== using the cut-down version that I downloaded from www.hpcalc.org. I remember there being a full document for 2.01. Anyone know? JYA? Doug I am trying to use OT49 to decompress a compressed library (ECLIB) and then put the decompressed library in my home directory so I can install and use it. The ~ command seems to decompress the library and leave it on the stack, and I have been able to save it as a string in my home directory, but cannot figure out how to save it as a decompressed library that I can install. I am running 1.19-6 of the operating system. I have the notes on OT49, but am very new to the HP49G, and am not familiar with some of the terminology in the notes. Any help would be appreciated. Bruce Rogers ==== HI all of you! I just started at university and got a 48gx with 128k card from a friend for nearly free. I looked over the net, found hpcalc.org and finally this VERY GOOD newsgroup. I spent 3hours reading in here, and now I am looking to get a 1MB card to get started with MK, Erable and Alg48. (hp49 is sold-out atm in germany :() I also downloaded the emu for 48/49 and tried a little bit, but i am feeling a little bit helpless. I downloaded the official manual for hp49, the html-hp49doku from hpcalc.org and looked into the pdf from Erable. If i start with 48gx with MK&Erable&Alg48 should i concentrate on hp49 manual ? (I often read these two configurations are nearly equal). I had only a old Sharp 1403 until now, so CAS is A NEW UNIVERSE for me.I dont want to spam u or play with your time, but please tell me how I could become a master (hope so) quickly...since I will need it for my study (technical engineering) many thanks in advance, Manfred -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ==== these sort of messages. You can't go wrong with any of that software! The documentation is very good, so read them carefully! Also, don't be afraid of trying new things. Good luck in your engineering! If you have questions, we are here for you. Aaron ==== The docs of Alg48 are VERY good The docs of MK 2.3 are also very good. For Erable, the pdf file you say is enougth, but the 49 CAS documentation will help you too... and will give you ideas about new commands that you can program for your 48. ==== Cercasi Hp 48 se c'e qualcuno disposto a venderla possibilmente zona Latina e Prov mi contatti grazie!!! ==== > Cercasi Hp 48 se c'e qualcuno disposto a venderla possibilmente zona > Latina e Prov mi contatti grazie!!! Posta il tuo annuncio su: http://it.groups.yahoo.com/group/lista_hp48/ http://it.groups.yahoo.com/group/softwarestrumentitecnologici/ sono entrambi gruppi di discussione in italiano e di italiani. Ciao. ==== --------------------------------------------------------------------- I am trying to get HP-IDE to work, but I guess I did something wrong with the instalation because when try to compile the sample projects there are errors in the process. I am running Win XP-H and I am using the Win32 binaries. Toby ==== > I am trying to get HP-IDE to work, but I guess I did something wrong with the instalation because when try to compile the sample projects there are >errors in the process. I am running Win XP-H and I am using the Win32 binaries. HP-IDE problems and lack of updates was precisely why I created Debug4x from debug2! If you like I can send a link so you can try it (it is a 6MB download). -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ==== Use debug4x! HTH Andreas > I am trying to get HP-IDE to work, but I guess I did something wrong > with the instalation because when try to compile the sample projects > there are errors in the process. I am running Win XP-H and I am using > the Win32 binaries. > Toby > -- ==== still works HP 20S. I got it off ebay for 5 bucks buy-it-now. Immediately I liked it more than every other algebraic scientific calculator I've used. Even though its cosmetic condition is the pits, it still works fine. When I started using it I kept punching in RPN order for things - made me wistful that I did not have a 32S or 32SII in its place - but alas, ebay prices are 50x what I payed for this little wonder. I haven't seen a post by someone claiming first-hand experience with the new Casio device, so I think it is premature to say much of anything about its software or capability. It is, however, fair to say that despite its 4mb of expansion room, Casio will probably not support 3rd party development - a tragedy and a mistake. Reminds me of how Apple did not release software rights to its hardware until it was too late - so it flopped - and Apple bought back up all of its new competitors. My wish list for HP involves only two calculators: 49GX, in the singapore casing with the black on gray screen. 49GX meaning erable, alg48, MK etc. preloaded - but still expandable up to 4mb. The current HP 49G hardware is pathetic. HP32SII - perhaps 32K mem and unlimited stack levels would be nice. I don't really want to change it... I'm done. Thoughts? -Louis ==== I'm looking for the old version 6.2002 of Libman from W.R (for HP49G). Has sombody got this version. I dont like the new version. It's slower and there is no stack manipulation. Please help me. ==== you bounce messages. It is a glitch at their end which I hope will be fixed soon. -- ==== How about porting FEM5.0 for hp49? I will glade to know something of that. thankyou ==== I have some questions for you And now, I have to switch between small/big letters with a single press on [alfa] - that«s not like before - [alfa] is like a caps lock-button on my computer. I don«t know what«s wrong... It behaves stupid... And when I press [hist] - my history comes as usual, but now with strange codes like for the expression X^3*5 = SYMBOL ID X ZINT 3... 2) I want to solve this equation without using pen and paper (I assume this is possibly - I just can«t figure it how to do it, exactly and what buttons to press). I have: (taken from a mechanical physics test) (25 mm)^4-d^4 = (130 Nm * d)/(2*(pi/32)*(80 Mpa) ) and on paper I can reduce it to this 4.grade equation: d^4 = -( (8,276 * 10^-3 [mm^-1] *d) - (25 mm)^4) => Answer: d = 21,5 mm, using the numerical solver. What«s the most clever way to reduce the above expression to get the diameter, d = 21,5 mm, without using ANY paper and pen? 3) Hmm. not any more questions from now, but that«ll come later, I think.... Martin J. ==== Martin Jorgensen escribi.97 en el mensaje I have some questions for you > Flag 85 > And now, I have to switch between small/big letters with a single press... Flag 60 > 3) Hmm. not any more questions from now, but that«ll come later, I think.... Come back when you want, but read the docs before ==== > I have some questions for you > And now, I have to switch between small/big letters with a single press on > [alfa] - that«s not like before - [alfa] is like a caps lock-button on my > computer. > I don«t know what«s wrong... It behaves stupid... Yes, indeed, poor Martin. By some accident you activated flag -85, which shows all things in SysRPL display Just clear flag -85 and everything returns to the normal. By the way, many advanced users have flag -85 permanently set. No time to explain to you why ... PS. I didn't even know that SysRPL display runs also in algebraic mode ==== Hey all, I've got an HP 42S in good shape if anyone's interested. I'm only looking to trade it for guitar effects (old or new, working or God bless, Mitch Lane Windsor, Nova Scotia Canada ==== > sin(x^2). Well, that looked easy. It's not. I guess calculators don't like to integrate trig functions > if the argument isn't linear. I tried TLIN and so on, and nothing > wanted to linearize it. Integrals.com says that the answer is sin(x^3)3, but I'm not sure if > I believe that. My log tables don't have this one, either. Anybody have any ideas? sin(x^2) isn't an easy integrand, and doesn't have a closed form solution in elementary functions. sin(x^3)/3 is wrong. Mathematica gives: In[1]:= Integrate[Sin[x^2],x] Pi 2 Out[1]= Sqrt[--] FresnelS[Sqrt[--] x] 2 Pi Scott -- Scott Hemphill hemphill@alumni.caltech.edu This isn't flying. This is falling, with style. -- Buzz Lightyear ==== Many thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I suspected it had no closed form, but then you never know what this new CAS can do. (Just press Fresnel and it'll tell you it's impossible.) Bill ==== Puts a strain on batts ....... Every thing made today over taxes the batts ! You pay for x joules of energy but not one consumer product will allow you to get those energy units 'cause they destroy the batts by sucking way too much juice from them . H.P. is same as the rest . I put AA's in my 48GX m . I use steel straps to hold it together . It comes apart faster this way ( 3 secs) . The law on batts is AAA's can't do .025 amps . HP puls .028 normall running . AA's can do about .1 amp . See if you can hook up a charger just for FLASH backup . --------------------------------------------------------- > You forgot RTFM :) It warns pretty clearly (or maybe I'm thinking of the > instructions that come with the new ROM's) to have fresh batteries when > backing up to flash memory as it puts high strain on the batteries. So yes > there is a risk that even if the low battery warning isn't showing a long > operation in flash memory will draw the current down to low. This is > agrevated if your using rechargables like I do that give little low battery > warning. Backing up the home directory to flash is pretty quick so I've never worried > about the battery level when I've done it. I've been caught like you, with > the batteries giving up in the middle of the operation but the calc has > allways fired up with flash memory intact and occasionally the home > directory lost. I guess I'm just lucky. I don't consider it a big risk but > it is a good reason to backup regularly. I will backup home to flash any > time I've done something signifigant I want to keep and backup to the PC > every month or so depending on how much I've stored on the calc and my > memory. With NiCd's I find the display changes contrast slightly well before you get > a low battery warning. It's only a sutle change and I've often blamed it on > the drinks the night before or mistaken it in poor lighting. It does serve > as a reminder to have the spare batteries recharged. Stephen.N I was purging a library from the flash memory when the calc hiccuped > and shut off. No amount of button-pushing could get any sign of life > out of it. Since I'd been using the batteries for a long time, I thought maybe > the high current required by the flash memory had dragged the voltage > down to a danger level. Sure enough, when I inserted new batteries it > restarted. Mind you, it started with a TTRM and couldn't recover the > Home dir, but fortunately I had a recent backup in the flash. All is > well. Except, of course, that it brings a whole new aspect to the low-batt > indicator. The current pulses from writing to the flash can obviously > kill the calc before the annunciator can come on. I guess the moral > is to carry a set of fresh batteries, do regular backups, brush your > teeth after every meal, and don't take any wooden nickels. Bill the Temporarily Panic-Stricken ==== WWW.CYNOX.COM sticks in my head for the German company that offered improved versions of the GX . Big FLASH memory was the exciting news . ==== When you have a vector, how can you replace the smallest number larger than zero by zero, using a program. example: How do you get from: [ 0 0 2300 0 250 8000] to: [ 0 0 2300 0 0 8000] Werner, Gerald,...., you have been a great help! St. ==== > Truss49 in the conversion done by Edwin Cordoba presents an error upon > drawing the truss upon seeming is the only error because the results > are performed correctly. > It fits to clear up that changing the system of coordinates to a right > system the truss draws correctly but the results are incorrect. Errors that Truss48 does not present. The question is if this error to be corrected by Alain soon. Greetings. > V.92ctor Moctezuma Hdez. > By my race spoke the spirit > ?????????????????????????????? (I sit down the lack of clarity but my native language is Spanish) ==== > Which part of the CAS does graphing? The graphing part? Graphing is part of a CAS, as are symbolics, > numerics, and programming capabilities. I think not. The graphing sub-system has got nothing to do with algebra. A > graphing calculator doesn't need a CAS to be able to graph anything. The CAS > provide algebraic tools like EXPAND and FACTOR. OK, I don't want to argue about the definition of a CAS Let me > just point out the field of computational geometry, which can be quite > useful in generating graphics. graphing calculators in general, the CAS has absolutely nothing to do with how the graphing works from a functional standpoint. When you graph something, it just crunches the numbers through and there is no CAS involved at all. It's still a valid point though, as we all know. Why he was trying to graph something for this particular problem, however, is beyond me. Aaron ==== > Inadequate? Inadequate for a guy that needs to phone long ditance, maybe, > were having are because of a bug in the CAS - you can't grasp that concept? > If your math professor takes one look at the CAS, and tells you that the > TI89 has a more versatile one, then he is a screwup. Plain and simply - he > shouldn't have left the university, before he got to learn more math than > merely integrating and differentiating. I actually agree with the math teacher, in that the HP49G is not a > good tool for students (compared to the TI-89). It is a tool for > professionals, despite HP's claims to the contrary. Actually, because > of the ancient hardware of the HP49G, I would say that soon the TI-89 > will be a better tool, even for professionals. Well, provided TI > doesn't screw things up. I'd think the opposite. Students should want to learn how to do things and should have to do the extra steps on their own. What professional solves an integral by hand? But then, that makes having a TI-89 pointless, since professionals have mathematica, etc at their disposal. My personal opinion is that CAS is great.. I was a student less than a year ago and I liked to check my work with the calculator too. However, I knew my tool well enough to program it if the CAS needed some gentle persuasion to get it in the form I wanted. So not only do I get the right answer in the end, but I learned something about how to deal with problems. What will Jessica do when she becomes a professional and the software she's using doesn't give a nice, clean answer? She'll have no idea how to troubleshoot the problem because she never had to do it in school. THAT is the real shame. In the real world, things don't come out clean. You can't lookup the answer in the back of the book. Instead, you learn to troubleshoot your problems using your tools. Jessica's math teacher has obviously not worked in the real world. Ah, but I'm preaching to the choir. Aaron ==== > To settle any disputes before they appear: The HP49G is excellent in idea, > but too slow, too late and too bad documented. It's also not backed by HP What do you mean? > anymore (if it ever was) - hence, a dead end. The TI89 really hasn't got any A dead end? Isn't any old technology a dead end. Casio has the lead now, with Xpander > of the mentioned drawbacks. Every calculator has it's drawbacks. The TI 89 is too inflexible to be a good tool for me. Fast it is - doing symbolic integrals - but slow with numerical matrices. > Just my opinions... Brother-Peter ==== > To settle any disputes before they appear: The HP49G is excellent in idea, > but too slow, too late and too bad documented. It's also not backed by HP What do you mean? I mean that it is too slow (it's a pain sometimes), has too bad documentation, and that it was not quite what we expected from ACO (even you expected a faster processor at least). HP never backed the ACO. Not with money neither with information - the latter is by far the biggest mistake. The former is merely a no-confidence vote within own ranks. > A dead end? Isn't any old technology a dead end. The HP49G is a dead end because HP dissolved the ACO (hence the ROM will never be up to old former HP standards). I don't care if they start a new calc division now - they can do that over and over again, but will never be any good I guess. Why, when you have the best (calc division), throw it away, just to try to rebuild it again? > Casio has the lead now, with Xpander Maybe - I've not used it yet. > Every calculator has it's drawbacks. Yes, but the TI89 isn't really troubled by the ones I mentioned. There are others though. ==== > The XModem Connectivity kit from HP uses 1k blocks not 128, > so the nice fix fails for the XModem connectivity kit > because the padding can be greater than 255 nibbles. > So, the writers of the XModem connectivity kit, knowing this, > download a command string after every file download to fix > the downloaded object. The string is: > 'name' MEM DROP DUP RCL SWAP DUP PURGE SWAP #100002h LIBEVAL > 26 + #100003h LIBEVAL NEWOB SWAP STO > This fixes the HPHP string and makes it into a valid object. Merely pointing to the address of the first byte of the string after HPHP4x-x is actually a very reckless thing to do, because if the string does not actually contain a valid object, it may crash the calc instead; just send any old file beginning with HPHP49-x (or doctor a valid file by altering its object type nibbles) and see what happens. By the way, will that kit send HP48 binaries to an HP49 in this same fashion? One might hope not, because binaries are usually incompatible between 48 and 49. This is precisely why OBJFIX (by HP) and FIXIT (by Joe Horn) were created for the HP48, and FIXOB for the HP49, to include much more thorough checking for valid objects: [48/49] FIXOB : v1.1 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8qcv36%24hvt%241%40nnrp1.deja.com The old link for ASCI/ASCO needs replacing by this one: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=83v723%24p3h%241%40nnrp1.deja.com If STR2OBJ is equally proper in checking for truly valid objects, then a call to it might be equivalent to FIXOB, if the manner of finding and invoking STR2OBJ is the same in all 49 ROM versions. > BUT WAIT, this will fail if we download a file of length 768 > nibbles or more because then the padding will be less than 255 > nibbles and then STR2OBJ works! However the command string above > is still used because XModem Connectivity kit does not recognize > this case. Therefore the command string will try to fix an object > which is already ok and therefore hurts the object! Apparently there's plenty more to do for both the kit and 1.19-7 or later; would someone care to log this stuff into Bugzilla? [r->] [OFF] . ==== Also: [ 8 7 3 ] [ 1 5 2 ] DOT ==== > I have downloaded the Emu48 1.30 eumulator for the HP49. > I can only find ROM updates with *.flash files Flash -> emulator (rom updater) http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=upd49rom 1.19-6 in both flash and emulator formats: http://www.epita.fr/~avenar_j/hp/49.html [r->] [OFF] . ==== [purged a directory from HP48SX] Function DTEMP from the HP48 Hack library recovers all objects still in temporary memory, including even user variables deleted via keyboard 'name' PURGE, at least until the next GC (temp memory cleanup). However, in the case of 'name' PGDIR, experiment suggests that the objects are never copied to temporary memory. You could also try ON+A+F -> Yes, but other objects to the right (in the menu order) are immediately moved into the original memory space, to compact all of user memory into one contiguous area, so there is only a very slight chance of recovering some objects that might have been part of a purged directory, if they were not all overwritten by this compaction. Unfortunately, directories that appear first in the menu, which is where they most popularly are arranged, are the most likely to immediately be completely overwritten. Sorry. [r->] [OFF] . ==== putting the path in correctly, because I can't seem to get it to run. Does your description indicate the contents of the CST list, or is there more than that? Don On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:00:51 +0200, Veli-Pekka Nousiainen >Yes, if you include the path, I would RCL the executable and then >run, so that there are no directory switching: >{ HOME UTILS My.Util } RCL EVAL >You could use the ports, too! Just add :0:, or :1:, or :2: >in front of the path. > Is it possible to create a custom menu in the Home directory which > calls and runs programs which are located in subdirectories? > thanks, ==== It is the direct path to you program 'My.Util' CST could have my.CST inside, which is then something like: { @ a more complete example { My.Util { << { HOME UTILS My.Util } RCL EVAL > @ here is my 1st example << > @ no left shit action (for safety) << { HOME UTILS My.Util } RCL > } } @ right shift recalls 'My.Util' { My.Program << { HOME PROGRAMS My.Program } RCL EVAL > } Util.at.HOME @ example of a util at HOME directory, no label needed { CHK Another.util.at.HOME } @ example on labeling a utility } ==== yes I agree simply put something like this in your program: << HOME sub-dir subsub-dir ... sub-n-dir program HOME > ==== > Question: how do i get the absolute value function to the equation > writer? Extremely simple. Select the expression to which you want to apply the absolute value function, then just like with any other function apply ABS to it. It's directly on the keyboard ==== I have written an XModem server for Debug4x. Works great but when I go to add a Screen Capture I must get the HP48 to print to the serial port. Setting flag -33 to 0 and -34 to 0 does it just fine. Whenever my XModem server does a DOOPENIO the ON RIGHT-ARROW no longer causes printing. I isolated the code to just the DOOPENIO call as the problem. DOOPENIO...xCLOSEIO does not restore printing. All the system flags have remained unchanged. Warmstart clears the problem. This does NOT happen on the HP49 with its XServer!! I can start my XServer and shut it down and restart and have no RS-232 communication problems. It is just the printer that is not working. >I have written an XModem server for Debug4x. Works great but when I go to add a Screen Capture I must get the HP48 to print to the >serial port. Setting flag -33 to 0 and -34 to 0 does it just fine. Whenever my XModem server does a DOOPENIO the ON RIGHT-ARROW no longer causes printing. I isolated the code to just the DOOPENIO >call as the problem. DOOPENIO...xCLOSEIO does not restore printing. All the system flags have remained unchanged. Warmstart clears the problem. This does NOT happen on the HP49 with its XServer!! >I can start my XServer and shut it down and restart and have no RS-232 communication problems. It is just the printer that is not >working. >Anyone have a clue? > The problem is indeed caused by DOOPENIO, or more specifically a routine it calls, OpenUartClr , which does the actual work of opening the IO port. The issue here is that OpenUartClr checks if the IO and printing transfer mediums are both wire or if the IO transfer medium is IR and if so sets a bit (sNoPRLCD) in the printer status nibbles (PrtStatus) which disables printing the lcd via the ON-1 key combination. The solution to this problem lies in the decompilation of xOPENIO. If you take a look you'll see that it calls a routine #324C8 right after calling DOOPENIO. This is the routine that re-enables lcd printing by clearing the bit mentioned above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- ==== > The problem is indeed caused by DOOPENIO, or more specifically a > routine it calls, OpenUartClr , which does the actual work of opening > the IO port. The issue here is that OpenUartClr checks if the IO and > printing transfer mediums are both wire or if the IO transfer medium > is IR and if so sets a bit (sNoPRLCD) in the printer status nibbles > (PrtStatus) which disables printing the lcd via the ON-1 key > combination. The solution to this problem lies in the decompilation of xOPENIO. If > you take a look you'll see that it calls a routine #324C8 right after > calling DOOPENIO. This is the routine that re-enables lcd printing by > clearing the bit mentioned above. many details? -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ==== > Huh? > Why not provide two algorithms > A) with either 128KB main RAM free OR 128KB ERAM port 1 free > use the faster algorithm > B) with less... > What is your answer Werner...worst case. I have many ideas (and nightmares) about defragmenting the Flash... > I don't think that it is possible to start from a limited memory and > the defragment the flash - rather, I can calculate what the minimum > memory requirements should be to be able to do it. Werner The trouble is, you'll always need to erase a full bank. When will you want to defragment the flash? when you have no room left for a rather large file. So, you will need at least the amount of RAM needed to store all files of the smallest bank. (actually, erasing is done per half-bank - that's where the nightmares come in) Werner ==== X > The trouble is, you'll always need to erase a full bank. When will you want > to defragment the flash? when you have no room left for a rather large file. > So, you will need at least the amount of RAM needed to store all files > of the smallest bank. > (actually, erasing is done per half-bank - that's where the nightmares come in) Yes, the Flash banks are 64KB. Maybe JYA could change the OS bank size to 64KB, too! Pro: 1) Flash defragmentation steels always a 64KB section of ERAM and is thus easier to program and takes less free RAM 2) Possible user configuration of I/ERAM sizes leaving more room for ROM without bank switching, (with minimum 64KB main RAM) or less room for ROM (continuous bank switching) when user needs more main RAM (up to 378KB). Con: 1) extable and other huge libraries are split to 64KB segments (pro: the first segment does not change, the additions are in the second half => only 64KB needs to downloaded on new releases) 2) too complicated to program (or too much work to do) for one person. ?? Opinions - oh Great Jedi Council members! ==== This is a question mainly to Thomas Rast and Carsten Domink. By a mistake, I purged the last semi-official extable which came with Emacs 1.10 from my 49. IMHO, SysRPL-programmers should prefer a common extable with stable (unsupported) entries. This is much better than everybody produces its own extable. It shouldn't be too large. IMHO, 1 flahbank (~127 KB) would be OK. Before I start a long-lasting upload please tell us, Thomas, is the project still continued? For this case I add some stable pointers for a new extable: Name Pointer Comment 8NULLAM{} 27AB7 Put list of eight NULLLAMS to stack CKLIST 3F3C1 Checks wether in Level 1 is a list dup 29A35 Duplicates metaobject (meta -> meta meta) NULLID! 27308 Runs NULLID, i.e., NIBBHEX 84E2000 IDS 3EF97 Runs ID S ID>LAM 05AED Converts ID into LAM EVLNCKSTO 2F2D5 Does EvalNoCk: xSTO SETundoERR 26521 Errors nicely If undo is disabled Reply-To: dominik@_DROP_THIS_science.uva.nl ==== WR> This is a question mainly to Thomas Rast and Carsten WR> Domink. By a mistake, I purged the last semi-official WR> extable which came with Emacs 1.10 from my 49. IMHO, WR> SysRPL-programmers should prefer a common extable with WR> stable (unsupported) entries. This is much better than WR> everybody produces its own extable. It shouldn't be WR> too large. IMHO, 1 flahbank (~127 KB) would be OK. Yes, we have already such an update. Only a few minor things need to be cleaned up before a new Emacs (1.11) release, and the release will contain a new version of extable. WR> Name Pointer Comment WR> 8NULLAM{} 27AB7 Put list of eight NULLLAMS to stack WR> CKLIST 3F3C1 Checks wether in Level 1 is a list WR> dup 29A35 Duplicates metaobject (meta -> meta meta) WR> NULLID! 27308 Runs NULLID, i.e., NIBBHEX 84E2000 WR> IDS 3EF97 Runs ID S ID> LAM 05AED Converts ID into LAM WR> EVLNCKSTO 2F2D5 Does EvalNoCk: xSTO WR> SETundoERR 26521 Errors nicely If undo is disabled All of those will be in the new extable. Most are already in the database from which the UBS pointers in extable are extracted. Two of the above were new to me (SETundoERR and IDS) - they are now in the DB - Carsten ==== > This is a question mainly to Thomas Rast and Carsten > Domink. By a mistake, I purged the last semi-official > extable which came with Emacs 1.10 from my 49. IMHO, > SysRPL-programmers should prefer a common extable with > stable (unsupported) entries. This is much better than > everybody produces its own extable. It shouldn't be > too large. IMHO, 1 flahbank (~127 KB) would be OK. Before I start a long-lasting upload please tell us, > Thomas, is the project still continued? For this case > I add some stable pointers for a new extable: Name Pointer Comment > 8NULLAM{} 27AB7 Put list of eight NULLLAMS to stack > CKLIST 3F3C1 Checks wether in Level 1 is a list > dup 29A35 Duplicates metaobject (meta -> meta meta) > NULLID! 27308 Runs NULLID, i.e., NIBBHEX 84E2000 > IDS 3EF97 Runs ID S > ID>LAM 05AED Converts ID into LAM > EVLNCKSTO 2F2D5 Does EvalNoCk: xSTO > SETundoERR 26521 Errors nicely If undo is disabled AND that extable should be found at Carsten's web page Reply-To: ttw@lanl.gov ==== Four things missing. First: RPN. Second: Financial functions. Third: RPN. Fourth: RPN. I've taught the gamut from grade to grad students how to use calculators. All found RPN much easier to use. RPN mimics how one calculates with pencil-and-paper (or stylus and mud brick.) Algebraic is just a type-setting convention. The poorer students did much better with RPN perhaps because they didn't understand algebra so well in the first place. ==== ==== But the fact is: > The HP6S didn't sell at all... > Not quite true...I bought one (and a HP30S) jsut to see what it was like. For a $7 calc, it's OK and lives on my desk at work. That way, noone gets to pinch my 41cx. ttfn, and keep up the fight! (for RPN & new calcs) JasonG ==== > Where can I get a USB - RS232? Try here: http://www.deluo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=DE&Categor y_Code=USBC Serial to USB converter $17.99 Leon. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ==== I use a Keyspan USA-19 Adapter ( > http://www.keyspan.com/products/usb/pdaadapter/ ) on my PowerMac G4 > with no problems. Communication software (Kermit & Xmodem): ZTerm. HTH > Markus What software do you use? Because I can't use the HP Link program. Marturo ==== > ... One of the benefits of > GSE1 is that it lets you set a maximum tolerable error, which lets the > program find solutions much faster... > Well I couldn't let that pass, now could I? > Here's the adaptation of KNAPSACK to accept any list, and a tolerance as well: Werner, I tested your program. No bug, only that the user will have difficulties to load it with JHM's famous device %%HP:T(3)C$ $ It is rather obvious that setting a narrow tolerance solves the problem faster. With tolerance 0 there is no solution at all, in general... It seems to me that this is not what the initiator of this thread was asking for. He just asked for minimizing the garbage. I propose to consider another kind of tolerance, put upon the algorithm rather than upon the solution: The algorithm should do its task in limited memory space. That makes it perhaps more interesting for defragmenting the flash mentioned by Werner. ==== > It is rather obvious that setting a narrow tolerance solves > the problem faster. With tolerance 0 there is no solution > at all, in general... It seems to me that this is not what > the initiator of this thread was asking for. He just asked > for minimizing the garbage. > The comments included: @ The resulting list is such that the freespace is either less than or equal @ to tolerance, or minimal. For larger problems of this type, the knapsack algorithm is not at all a a few tubes with zero loss, that the overall loss is minimal. The problem as described is 'bin-packing'. There is no fast way to find the optimal solution in the general case. 'Best Fit Descending' appears to work well in most cases, but of course not necessarily optimal, and you can always find examples where it performs badly. > I propose to consider another kind of tolerance, put upon > the algorithm rather than upon the solution: The algorithm > should do its task in limited memory space. That makes it > perhaps more interesting for defragmenting the flash > mentioned by Werner. > I have many ideas (and nightmares) about defragmenting the Flash... I don't think that it is possible to start from a limited memory and the defragment the flash - rather, I can calculate what the minimum memory requirements should be to be able to do it. Werner ==== Huh? Why not provide two algorithms A) with either 128KB main RAM free OR 128KB ERAM port 1 free use the faster algorithm B) with less... What is your answer Werner...worst case. > It is rather obvious that setting a narrow tolerance solves > the problem faster. With tolerance 0 there is no solution > at all, in general... It seems to me that this is not what > the initiator of this thread was asking for. He just asked > for minimizing the garbage. > The comments included: > @ The resulting list is such that the freespace is either less than or equal > @ to tolerance, or minimal. For larger problems of this type, the knapsack algorithm is not at all a > a few tubes with zero loss, that the overall loss is minimal. > The problem as described is 'bin-packing'. There is no fast way to find > the optimal solution in the general case. 'Best Fit Descending' appears > to work well in most cases, but of course not necessarily optimal, and > you can always find examples where it performs badly. I propose to consider another kind of tolerance, put upon > the algorithm rather than upon the solution: The algorithm > should do its task in limited memory space. That makes it > perhaps more interesting for defragmenting the flash > mentioned by Werner. > I have many ideas (and nightmares) about defragmenting the Flash... > I don't think that it is possible to start from a limited memory and > the defragment the flash - rather, I can calculate what the minimum > memory requirements should be to be able to do it. Werner ==== > Maybe, but that wasn't the question ==== (hola, cu.87nto es el voltaje m.87ximo que puede entrar por RX?) RX: does it throw voltage pulses when transmits data? to that frequency? (RX: arroja pulsos de voltaje cuando transmite datos?, a que frecuencia?) GaaK ==== -12 -> + 12 Volts (RX == 'pin 3' in the HP49G) > (hola, cu.87nto es el voltaje m.87ximo que puede entrar por RX?) el voltaje maximo (en el RX cable) es el mismo que el que se usa en el PC. este va desde -12 voltios hasta +12 voltios. > RX: does it throw voltage pulses when transmits data? to that frequency? [joke] it throws electrons balls. don't let all the electrons balls scape at the same time or you can damage the electron trumpet inside the calculator. if yo do, the trumpet gets too hot, melts and gets quiet forever. > (RX: arroja pulsos de voltaje cuando transmite datos?, a que frecuencia?) para transmitir datos, la calculadora usa el cable TX (que es diferente al RX). al transmitir, la calculadora pone un voltage de 0 voltios en referencia con el cable SGRND (tierra) esto se considera como un uno. si pone un voltage de 4.5 V esto se considera como un zero. la calculadora usa logica negativa (no convencional), es decir un zero es un voltage mayor a un uno. la frequencia no es una frequencia como tal sino un transmision de pulsos que se mide en baud. este puede variar desde 1200 hasta 9600 bps. ten mucho cuidado al conectar cosas a la calculadora. es muy facil destruirla. saludos GaaK ==== > That works, but what a pain! Yes, you have to think for yourself. That is actually quite discouraging. TI92+ actually returns S(cos(ln(x)),s) as a nice formula of: x*cos(ln(x))/2+x*sin(ln(x))/2 which is exactly what Mathematica returns by the way on this integral. I guess, you assume, that Mathematica does not require thinking HP49 not only fails to integrate this directly, but with all the tricks and pain of the experienced user it leads through maze of guessing and trial and error untill you finally manage to obtain the final formula that resembles what normal user really wanted. Guys. Whether you like it or not, lack of automatic simplification is one f the reasons of HP49 miserably failing on the market and leading to the HP calculator downfall. The mass customer expects ease of use, period. Jack ==== http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame54.html where am i? which group am i wrinting too? i must be in a dream http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame26.html ==== > which is exactly what Mathematica returns by the way on this integral. > I guess, you assume, that Mathematica does not require thinking Once in a while you also have to think to get a sensible answer out of Mathematica > HP49 not only fails to integrate this directly, but with all the tricks and pain > of the experienced user it leads through maze of guessing and trial and error > untill you finally manage to obtain the final formula that resembles what > normal user really wanted. I didn't guess once, but that may be me... > Guys. Whether you like it or not, lack of automatic simplification > is one f the reasons of HP49 miserably failing on the market and > leading to the HP calculator downfall. The mass customer expects > ease of use, period. I agree totally. The necessary steps on the HP49G, to do the integral in question, is because of a bug in the CAS. This bug will sadly never be fixed, unlike what they usually are on the TI89 and cousins. ==== > I took it in to my math professor and showed him the problem, and the > solutions you guys came up with. He played with the calculator for > half an hour. He said that the calculator The calculator can either > do the problems easily or it can't. He means that if an answer is not easily obtainable, it's not obtainable at all? He must be a genious, that math teacher... > The computer algebra system it has > is inadequate. Inadequate? Inadequate for a guy that needs to phone long ditance, maybe, were having are because of a bug in the CAS - you can't grasp that concept? If your math professor takes one look at the CAS, and tells you that the TI89 has a more versatile one, then he is a screwup. Plain and simply - he shouldn't have left the university, before he got to learn more math than merely integrating and differentiating. I'm having a hard time believing that you actually showed the '49 to your math teacher. > Also, it's in slow motion with graphing. Which part of the CAS does graphing? > Take it back > and exchange it for something that works. So I did, and now I have a > TI89, easy to use, and it works. Oh, but the TI89 can't handle series expansion very well. You better take it back and get it exchanged for someting that works. Christ. ==== > The computer algebra system it has > is inadequate. Inadequate? Inadequate for a guy that needs to phone long ditance, maybe, > were having are because of a bug in the CAS - you can't grasp that concept? > If your math professor takes one look at the CAS, and tells you that the > TI89 has a more versatile one, then he is a screwup. Plain and simply - he > shouldn't have left the university, before he got to learn more math than > merely integrating and differentiating. I actually agree with the math teacher, in that the HP49G is not a good tool for students (compared to the TI-89). It is a tool for professionals, despite HP's claims to the contrary. Actually, because of the ancient hardware of the HP49G, I would say that soon the TI-89 will be a better tool, even for professionals. Well, provided TI doesn't screw things up. > Also, it's in slow motion with graphing. Which part of the CAS does graphing? The graphing part? Graphing is part of a CAS, as are symbolics, numerics, and programming capabilities. > Oh, but the TI89 can't handle series expansion very well. You better take it > back and get it exchanged for someting that works. One can write third-party programs that overcome this limitation (e.g. my nSeries function). Not as good a solution as having it built-in, but there's always a compromise, unfortunately. -- ==== > I actually agree with the math teacher, in that the HP49G is not a > good tool for students (compared to the TI-89). He could within half an hour thoroughly evlauate the CAS of the HP49G. I'd say he is overqualified for working as a mere teacher... > Actually, because > of the ancient hardware of the HP49G, I would say that soon the TI-89 > will be a better tool, even for professionals. That's a given. > Which part of the CAS does graphing? The graphing part? Graphing is part of a CAS, as are symbolics, > numerics, and programming capabilities. I think not. The graphing sub-system has got nothing to do with algebra. A graphing calculator doesn't need a CAS to be able to graph anything. The CAS provide algebraic tools like EXPAND and FACTOR. > Oh, but the TI89 can't handle series expansion very well. You better take it > back and get it exchanged for someting that works. One can write third-party programs that overcome this limitation (e.g. > my nSeries function). Not as good a solution as having it built-in, > but there's always a compromise, unfortunately. I know, Bhuv, and my point was not to bash the TI89, or to put down the importance of third-party programs. The original problem hadn't been a problem had it not been for a _bug_ in the HP CAS. It's not a deliberate restriction made by the programmers, but an error. Take it back and exchange it for someting that works - well, if you are studying series expansion*, you are probably better off using the HP49G, which is my point. It's not sufficient just to say The CAS it has is inadequate. * The TI89, for example, fails on these series expansions while the HP49g does not (the TI89 only does taylor expansion btw): 'X^X', 'SQRT(X^2+X+1)', 'ASIN(X)', 'SIN(X)/(EXP(X)-1)'. The TI89 also fails this limit, while the CAS - it doesn't handle factorials in limits. One shouldn't expect much help when using phrases like It makes me wonder, were the makers of this calculator drunk or stoned when they put it together? though. I do not want to waste time helping people that can't be polite. To settle any disputes before they appear: The HP49G is excellent in idea, but too slow, too late and too bad documented. It's also not backed by HP anymore (if it ever was) - hence, a dead end. The TI89 really hasn't got any of the mentioned drawbacks. ==== > Which part of the CAS does graphing? The graphing part? Graphing is part of a CAS, as are symbolics, > numerics, and programming capabilities. I think not. The graphing sub-system has got nothing to do with algebra. A > graphing calculator doesn't need a CAS to be able to graph anything. The CAS > provide algebraic tools like EXPAND and FACTOR. OK, I don't want to argue about the definition of a CAS Let me just point out the field of computational geometry, which can be quite useful in generating graphics. > One shouldn't expect much help when using phrases like It makes me wonder, > were the makers of this calculator drunk or stoned when they put it > together? though. I do not want to waste time helping people that can't be > polite. I know. That's what I tried to say, too, in a different way. > To settle any disputes before they appear: The HP49G is excellent in idea, > but too slow, too late and too bad documented. It's also not backed by HP > anymore (if it ever was) - hence, a dead end. The TI89 really hasn't got any > of the mentioned drawbacks. There is a possible drawback with the TI-89 as well: TI may try to control development. They are being pretty cooperative right now, and I hope that, besides removing the C-programs-in-expressions limitation, it stays that way. . ==== > he is overqualified for working as a mere teacher... Ummm... ==== > he is overqualified for working as a mere teacher... > Ummm... ==== > What is really suprising to me is how much time you guys spend > discussing a calculator that is like, a total failure. Only one guy > here, Marchel, seems to know this. The rest of you guys seem to just > love this piece of junk. I hope you guys get a better life. bye, > Jessica. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. Feel free to come back if you ever find yourself ready for a calculator that requires you to think, rather than one that just does your homework for you. -- Myers, Silverlock ==== What is really suprising to me is how much time you guys spend > discussing a calculator that is like, a total failure. Only one guy > here, Marchel, seems to know this. The rest of you guys seem to just > love this piece of junk. I hope you guys get a better life. bye, > Jessica. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. Feel free to come > back if you ever find yourself ready for a calculator that requires you > to think, rather than one that just does your homework for you. Guys, guys, you're really biased. Do you really think my TI-89 does my homework for me (assuming I still have homework)? I think it requires me to think just as much as an HP49G (or Mathematica) would. I wouldn't call the HP49G a piece of junk, though. It is still an impressive achievement. -- ==== This Program applied just after accidental purge or overstoring happens could help, but it's designedto work on a hp48GX, so i'm not sure if it works on a 48SX! 'FENIX' , 70 Bytes, Checksum # 7CCDh, no arguments. << LASTARG DUP VTYPE -1 > { DUP RCL OVER VTYPE 7 8 + == { OVER PGDIR } IFT ROT ROT } IFT STO > at least if it doesn't work simply hit LASTARG. ==== Use LASTARG command just after PGDIR ocurrs ( of course it works only if LASTARG ==== I am trying to figure out how to implement non-ascii characters in the names in some of my library command names. It seems right now that it does not work if the first characters in the name are non ascii. However if they are within the boundaries of ascii characters, no complaints are made by the compiler. What is the correct way to do this? -Al Arduengo ==== > I am trying to figure out how to implement non-ascii characters in the > names in some of my library command names. It seems right now that it > does not work if the first characters in the name are non ascii. > However if they are within the boundaries of ascii characters, no > complaints are made by the compiler. What is the correct way to do > this? The HPTools will accept the escape characters like -> for right arrow etc. Of course, the marvelous Debug4x tool also allows this because of the HPTools! -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ==== The last resort would be using H->S and S->H commands editing the code directly in hex characters and then translate it back to code again. One can also use the internal editor to edit the hex string and you have then the search & replace ready for a more massive work in case your code is large and have ID references to your special name all over the code. I am trying to figure out how to implement non-ascii characters in the > names in some of my library command names. It seems right now that it > does not work if the first characters in the name are non ascii. > However if they are within the boundaries of ascii characters, no > complaints are made by the compiler. What is the correct way to do > this? -Al Arduengo ==== > The last resort would be using H->S and S->H commands > editing the code directly in hex characters and > then translate it back to code again. Once again, you answered without even reading the question ! Al, the HPTools accepts the escape character followed by hexa code. So for the entry ->FONT you can do something like: 8DFONT. Translated into library making, you can having something like this sNAME x>FONT 8DFONT to define your entry ->FONT in the library, while still creating the label x>FONT which is easier to enter Reply-To: Veli-Pekka Nousiainen ==== It seems that I didn't even understand the question... The last resort would be using H->S and S->H commands > editing the code directly in hex characters and > then translate it back to code again. Once again, you answered without even reading the question ! X ==== The HP49 minifont doesn't display some characters correctly, so I installed Werner's Minifont 01. The characters look fine when I transfer text from my HP48, but I have trouble accessing the characters for new files since RS-Chars doesn't match the new minifont (and some of the characters, like infinity, are actually two characters in one). I installed Philippe Pamart's minifont viewer and it's very good, but it won't echo characters. Is there a fix? Bill ==== > Some more oddities... On the 39G, > 2 superscript 3 -> 2^-1 -> 0.5 > 2 superscript 2 -> 2^2 -> 4 > 2 superscript 1 -> 2^1 -> error: Invalid Syntax On the 38G+ > 2 superscript 3 -> 2^3 -> error: Invalid Syntax > 2 superscript 2 -> 2^2 -> 4 > 2 superscript 1 -> 2^1 -> error: Invalid Syntax These are not oddities actually. As I said (below) most of the characters in the CHARS view are for text only; for use in Notes or in text messages in programs. When the 38G was designed the programmers, for reasons only known to them, included superscripts of 1, 2 and 3 but only enabled the 2 as 'squared'. The others are text only and hence the syntax error. On the 39G the superscript 3 is now enabled as a power of -1, hence the 2 becoming 1/2 or 0.5. > an interesting bug in the 39G (also in the emulator). If you go to the > SPECIAL CHARS view, which for non-39G users contains a list of all the > special chars that don't appear on the keyboard, and choose the 'cubed' > char (superscripted 3) then what you actually get is a power of -1 > instead. ==== > Nicolas Pouillon schrieb im Newsbeitrag > Le Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:36:05 +0100 > Hellstern <.Hellstern@T-Online.de> eut le bonheur > d'ecrire: www.hpcalc.org why I posted to the list. It's a read-modify-write, now, i'm not sure if it's done a nibble at a time or a byte at a time, i think there were at least some cases were two clocks apeared, but i never had any trouble... Are you trying to write in rom address space? Steve <20021114222010.01298171.nipo@ssji.net> ==== Le 15 Nov 2002 21:02:20 -0800 etsteve@yahoo.com (Steve Sousa) eut le bonheur d'ecrire: >It's a read-modify-write, now, i'm not sure if it's done a nibble at a >time or a byte at a time, i think there were at least some cases were >two clocks apeared, but i never had any trouble... But if we are writing a whole byte, there isn't need to read previous value... just poking would be enough. >Are you trying to write in rom address space? Nope, I'm trying to connect some mocrocontroller directly to the bus, and trying to talk with it like if it were a ram chip, but getting some strange behaviours, I wonder if the Yorke actually does one or two write cycles. -- Nipo ==== Well, I see other people has already answered your question but, If I'm not wrong, it is required to minimize the loss for each 12000 mm tube. Total length=31900 mm; Number of 12000 mm tubes required: ceil(31900/12000)=3; Tube 1: 8000, 2400, 1500; Residual: 100 mm; Tube 2: 8000, 1200, 750, 200, 200; Residual: 1650 mm; Tube 3: 4850, 4800; Residual: 2350 mm; I didn't even write a program. I just applied the following simple method: 1) sort the vector of the lengths in decreasing order; 2) add to each vector element all the subsequent vector elements that doesn't make the sum exceed 12000 mm, and delete all those elements from the vector; 3) apply the point 2) for each 12000 mm tube (that is, 3 times). -- ==== > See http://www.dynatech.de/ > I bought one, it is a great calc. Does Dynatech ships outside Germany ? It used to have pages in English, but now it seems there are no longer pages in English on their site. I'm not interested in the HP32SII because I already have one, but Dynatech has other calculators and accessories that I would like -- ==== Bonjour, j'ai une hp40g et j'ai un probl.8fme: lors d'un calcul de modulo dans home, lorsque le nombre est tr.8fs grand, la hp renvoie un r.8esultat mais celui-ci est faux, essayez par exemple: 12^15 MOD 11, le r.8esultat devrait .90tre de 1 mais ce n'est pas le cas. Une solution ? ==== Bonjour Freddy, Je vais traduire ton message, puisque ce groupe de discussion est en langua anglaise. I'm just translating the following: ----- > Bonjour, > j'ai une hp40g et j'ai un probl.8fme: > lors d'un calcul de modulo dans home, > lorsque le nombre est tr.8fs grand, la hp > renvoie un r.8esultat mais celui-ci est faux, > essayez par exemple: > 12^15 MOD 11, le r.8esultat devrait .90tre de 1 > mais ce n'est pas le cas. > Une solution ? I have an HP40G, and I've got a problem: when performing a modulus computing, the calculator returns me a wrong answer. For example: 12^15 mod 11, the answer should be 1, and I get something else. Do you have any solution? ----- My answer: What is the result of 12^15? Is it approximated, or is it an exact result? -- ----- > seul .88 76. (pour ton r.8epertoire de neuneuX, si tu veux) > (comme les lignes font d.8ej.88 76, avec les quotes, forc.8ement, .8d.88 d.8epasse) -+- C in: Guide du Neuneu d'Usenet - Quand les bornes sont franchies -+- ==== Bonjour, j'ai une hp40g et j'ai un probl.8fme: dans home, lorsque je fais un modulo avec un tr.8fs grand nombre, la hp me renvoie un faux r.8esultat Essayez par exemple 12^15 MOD 11, le r.8esultat n'est pas de 1 Une solution pour corriger ca ? ==== I've updated the full version of PowerPlot. I fixed a few problems with the previous version and also added a few small features, specifically with FFT plots. You can download the new beta at my website: http://leviathan.orblivion.com/hp48/software/index.shtml Please let me know if you find any problems. Aaron ==== Is it possible to create a custom menu in the Home directory which calls and runs programs which are located in subdirectories? thanks, Don Davis Reply-To: Veli-Pekka Nousiainen ==== Yes, if you include the path, I would RCL the executable and then run, so that there are no directory switching: { HOME UTILS My.Util } RCL EVAL You could use the ports, too! Just add :0:, or :1:, or :2: in front of the path. > Is it possible to create a custom menu in the Home directory which > calls and runs programs which are located in subdirectories? thanks, ==== > Is it possible to create a custom menu in the Home directory which > calls and runs programs which are located in subdirectories? thanks, If you have a custom menu in HOME but no other custom menus in the path to the current directory, including in that directory, then the CST in HOME will be the one you get as your custom menu. If a name in such a custom menu is in any directory in the current path, it will be used as if it were called from the current directory. If you have multiple CSTs in the path, only the one closest to the current directory is accessible. ==== http://staging.porternovelli.com/sanfrancisco/preview/hpcalc1/index.htm#intr o -- James ==== When using these new entry-level calculators, can we enter operators and data in an RPN manner, or in the algebraic order? http://staging.porternovelli.com/sanfrancisco/preview/hpcalc1/index.htm#intro -- > James -- Shinjiro Ito s_ito@george24.com Reply-To: Veli-Pekka Nousiainen ==== RPN, both. > When using these new entry-level calculators, can we enter operators > and data in an RPN manner, or in the algebraic order? http://staging.porternovelli.com/sanfrancisco/preview/hpcalc1/index.htm#intr o -- > James -- Reply-To: Veli-Pekka Nousiainen ==== Sorry, I had the wrong flag turned ON Naturally both are Algebraic. > RPN, both. > When using these new entry-level calculators, can we enter operators > and data in an RPN manner, or in the algebraic order? > http://staging.porternovelli.com/sanfrancisco/preview/hpcalc1/index.htm#intr > o -- > James -- ==== Oooh, fudge. > Sorry, I had the wrong flag turned ON > Naturally both are Algebraic. > RPN, both. > When using these new entry-level calculators, can we enter operators > and data in an RPN manner, or in the algebraic order? http://staging.porternovelli.com/sanfrancisco/preview/hpcalc1/index.htm#intr > o -- > James -- ==== Remember the 6S and 6S solar from ACO? These machines were a way that ACO could sell a new product and generate much-needed cash in order to perhaps finance future home-grown efforts. This is just what they said at the HPCC conference: They need to get out of the starting gate with SOMETHING to generate cash, in order to be able to finance later products which have been designed from scratch. And those ground-up efforts will include RPN machines - they committed to that in black and white on their Power Point slides. Jake Schwartz > Oooh, fudge. Sorry, I had the wrong flag turned ON > Naturally both are Algebraic. > RPN, both. > When using these new entry-level calculators, can we enter operators > and data in an RPN manner, or in the algebraic order? > http://staging.porternovelli.com/sanfrancisco/preview/hpcalc1/index.htm#intr > o -- > James -- ==== I hope you're right, but I'll believe it when I see it. And right now, all I see is crap. > And those ground-up > efforts will include RPN machines - they committed to that in black and white on > their Power Point slides. Jake Schwartz Oooh, fudge. Sorry, I had the wrong flag turned ON > Naturally both are Algebraic. > RPN, both. > When using these new entry-level calculators, can we enter operators > and data in an RPN manner, or in the algebraic order? > http://staging.porternovelli.com/sanfrancisco/preview/hpcalc1/index.htm#intr > o -- > James -- > ==== > Sorry, I had the wrong flag turned ON > Naturally both are Algebraic. They both have an Enter key, is there hope? Steve Sousa ==== No, no, no! The [ENTER] just compiles the entry line. They could write COMPUTE on the key, but it's not RPN PS: There is hope in 2003... > Sorry, I had the wrong flag turned ON > Naturally both are Algebraic. They both have an Enter key, is there hope? Steve Sousa ==== I can't see an equal ('=') key on the picture, so there is hope (either for RPN or me getting better glasses The machines seem to be based on the 30S hardware frame. Shinjiro Ito schrieb im Newsbeitrag > When using these new entry-level calculators, can we enter operators > and data in an RPN manner, or in the algebraic order? http://staging.porternovelli.com/sanfrancisco/preview/hpcalc1/index.htm#intr o -- > James -- ==== I can't see an equal ('=') key on the picture, > so there is hope (either for RPN or me getting better glasses Well, there's an [Enter] key, which is equivalent to the [=] key... -- P.S.: Although the [Enter] key can be used for RPN as well... ==== schrieb im Newsbeitrag > I can't see an equal ('=') key on the picture, > so there is hope (either for RPN or me getting better glasses > Well, there's an [Enter] key, which is equivalent to the [=] key... > Hmm, maybe I'm too used to RPN, but from my understanding ENTER works quite different than '='... Speaking in a somewhat abstract way, ENTER is used to separate entries, wheras '=' is used to combine entries. > P.S.: Although the [Enter] key can be used for RPN as well... > Reply-To: Veli-Pekka Nousiainen ==== The ENTER key evaluates the command line. They are both (Advanced) Algebraic calculators. I can't see an equal ('=') key on the picture, > so there is hope (either for RPN or me getting better glasses The machines seem to be based on the 30S hardware frame. ==== Hellstern <.Hellstern@T-Online.de> escribi.97 en el mensaje I can't see an equal ('=') key on the picture... nor in 49's keyboard... RPN calcs designed for students of 10-16 yo? I wish but the market doesn't believe these ones can do *any* effort (...easy to see the problem and then immediately see the solution) ==== No RPN in basic models ? Bad beginning for this new HP era ! Wouldn't it be better to add RPN functionality to both 9S scientific calculator & 9G graphing calculator, like in the 49G ? where we must bear up with the algebraic mode by default ? Shouldn't we promote RPN benefits among those kids (while letting them the chance to use their algebraic known choice) ? Aren't we feeding them with other brand options ? Along with a fashioned styling and moderate design, which would be their distinguishing features against you know who options ? The whole specs weren't pubished yet ant the only two images were low-res*. Perhaps, th people from their marketing department would laugh if they read these lines, wondering where am I living ? After all, there is a big chance that we as a community don't have a commercial interest anymore. In any case, sincerely, I just hope the best to the new appointed General Manager of the HP Calculator Division, PSG, Mr Fred A. Valdez. As long as his team and himself are ok, there is still hope for oldtimers like many of us, who will never give up their dreams on HP good old calculators to get back to good things of old products and why not? perhaps even better models. Expecting the division to honour their slogan/motto HP INVENT !!! At least, somebody in Fiorina's shift or even herself see something more we as a bunch don't. Even that, we should be grateful for the pleasurable solid tools HP company gave us... (ok, sold us *I may be dreaming but, << did any of you like me, notice a 48GX color resemblance in the 9G model ?> Even though I couldn't appreciate the upper left violet labels well, let me add I liked the golden-red-blue colour combination it seems to have, very much. Carlos ==== No RPN in basic models ? Bad beginning for this new HP era ! Wouldn't it be better to add RPN functionality to both 9S scientific calculator & 9G graphing calculator, like in the 49G ? where we must bear up with the algebraic mode by default ? Shouldn't we promote RPN benefits among those kids (while letting them the chance to use their algebraic known choice) ? Aren't we feeding them with other brand options ? Along with a fashioned styling and moderate design, which would be their distinguishing features against you know who options ? The whole specs weren't pubished yet ant the only two images were low-res*. Perhaps, th people from their marketing department would laugh if they read these lines, wondering where am I living ? After all, there is a big chance that we as a community don't have a commercial interest anymore. In any case, sincerely, I just hope the best to the new appointed General Manager of the HP Calculator Division, PSG, Mr Fred A. Valdez. As long as his team and himself are ok, there is still hope for oldtimers like many of us, who will never give up their dreams on HP good old calculators to get back to good things of old products and why not? perhaps even better models. Expecting the division to honour their slogan/motto HP INVENT !!! At least, somebody in Fiorina's shift or even herself see something more we as a bunch don't. Even that, we should be grateful for the pleasurable solid tools HP company gave us... (ok, sold us *I may be dreaming but, << did any of you like me, notice a 48GX color resemblance in the 9G model ?> Even though I couldn't appreciate the upper left violet labels well, let me add I liked the golden-red-blue colour combination it seems to have, very much. Carlos ==== > *I may be dreaming but, << did any of you like me, notice a 48GX color > resemblance in the 9G model ?> Even though I couldn't appreciate the upper > left violet labels well, let me add I liked the golden-red-blue colour > combination it seems to have, very much. You are a very well-meaning boy... To me, it seems more a GameBoy than a calculator... ==== I'm still laughing with your lines. I hope the next HP calculators proves us wrong. But really, don't you think is good news that at least the 48GX color scheme was somehow respected, instead of keeping the 49G metallic blue one ? Leave alone the RPN key issue. Believe me, I need to imagine there will still be good HP calculators, not anyone but HP ! I'm still working out those exams... By the way, I've just nearly fixed my Emu48 trouble* and could load both your 1me32 (1 Mb RAM Card w/ Erable v 3.2) as well as your MK-Erable32 (1me32).e48. They worked perfect, although ... I'm the one who didn't. You've got too many good applications packed together. Too many to comment and didn't even know most of them. I will need time to understand them all... Even though, I still didn't get what was that kind of solid battery symbol at the top, on the status area nor the letters RSX also there. *I could get back my HomeDir (Port 0), but to the cost of losing all my libs... I'll never know what happened. I'd just installed again the mexican version EmuCalc HP49 [zoom 2 screen hp268x128 pc600x800pxls].kml - Title: !best emuhp49 screen hp268x128pxl zoom 2 pc600*800pxls from Author: Jaime Fernando Meza Meza, VERSION: 0.9 UPDATE: Jun. 18/2002, WEB: http://www.geocities.com/hp4x, along with ROM OPERATING SYSTEM C:/.../HewlettPackard/OS-hp49g-FLASH.rom and Emu48.EXE version 1.31 and Bitmap EmuCalc HP49 [zoom 2 screen pc600x800pxls].bmp Loaded. Debug On. problems, perhaps I'm wrong. Do you know why the Emu48 starts a new e49 Document crashing all memory each time it does so, instead of opening the last saved one ? Is there a way to correct this behaviour by changing something in the c:windowsEmu48.ini file ? [Files] Emu48Directory=G:HP48Emu48 (shouldn't a e49 Doc be defined here?) AutoSave=0 AutoSaveOnExit=1 LoadObjectWarning=1 [Port2] IsShared=1 Filename=SHARED.BIN [KML] AlwaysDisplayLog=1 [Disassembler] Mnemonics=0 [Emulator] RealSpeed=0 SXCycles=82 GXCycles=123 [Serial] Wire=disabled Ir=disabled [ROM] Writeable=1 It's a nuissance in the sense that each time I start the Emu48, I should close a nuew untitled e49 document instead of opening my last saved one. *I may be dreaming but, << did any of you like me, notice a 48GX color > resemblance in the 9G model ?> Even though I couldn't appreciate the > upper > left violet labels well, let me add I liked the golden-red-blue colour > combination it seems to have, very much. > You are a very well-meaning boy... To me, it seems more a GameBoy than a > calculator... > ==== ==== The target of the program is to count pulses all the time (at the main task), and every 10 seconds to perform some calculation. DATE TIME << @ alarm task every 10 seconds. . . > 10 UBASE UVAL 8192 * 4 ->LIST STOALARM DO @ main task. . . UNTIL KEY END How to perform that? Any help will be appreciated. Tal ==== > anyone know what is key for log of base 2 in 48g, or 32sii ?? > > thx > anthony > > Base on y register > Expression on x register > > << LOG SWAP LOG / EVAL > LOGG ENTER STO I mean ><< LN SWAP LN / EVAL > LOGG ENTER STO >Soryy! The base of the log being used doesn't matter ln(x)/ln(y) is the same as log10(x)/log10(y) is the same as logN(x)/logN(y). A bientot Paul -- Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth) What happens if you have lead in your pants as well as lead in your pencil? ==== Alain Robillard is porting FEM48 v5.0 to the HP49 and is having some problems with an unsupported entry. The following program evaluates a program on level 1 and turns the display off to save execution time. Could somebody tell me what enrty could be used instead of the unsupported #1D44? Maybe it is as simple as DispOff ???? (if this is supported) Caspar * EvalFast * * FAST evaluation (turns LCD off) :: CODE GOSBVL =SAVPTR GOSBVL =DisableIntr GOSBVL #1D44 GOSBVL =AllowIntr GOVLNG =GETPTRLOOP ENDCODE ERRSET EVAL ERRTRAP :: CODE GOSBVL =SAVPTR GOSBVL =DispOn GOVLNG =GETPTRLOOP ENDCODE ERRJMP ; CODE GOSBVL =SAVPTR GOSBVL =DispOn GOVLNG =GETPTRLOOP ENDCODE ; ==== On Sun, 17 Nov 2002 18:44:03 +0100, Caspar Lugtmeier & Eva Alain Robillard is porting FEM48 v5.0 to the HP49 and is having some >problems with an unsupported entry. >The following program evaluates a program on level 1 and turns the display >off to save execution time. >Could somebody tell me what enrty could be used instead of the unsupported >#1D44? >Maybe it is as simple as DispOff ???? (if this is supported) Caspar > This question was just answered. See the following threads : http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8f5fc505.0211111958.32b5ebb4%40posting. google.com http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=lvCq9.1846%24h7.670649%40reader1.news.j ippii.net The 49 entry has the address #1B1C ( ROM 1.19-6 ) aka OffNoBlush. It's a specialized routine to turn off the display without any artifacts associated with cutting the LCD power without first blanking the screen. ( nasty vertical lines or bars ) You can also use #4315 ( which consists of a GOVLNG #1B1C ) if you only want to use addresses in a stable region. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- ==== You can also use #4315 > ( which consists of a GOVLNG #1B1C ) if you only want to use addresses > in a stable region. stable region IS the magical word ! #1B1C was good but I was unable to make sure that it was going to be trouble free with upcoming rom versions. Alain ==== (I didn't want to reply to Alain's earlier post, because this is just guesswork, but then again it seems you could need every bit of information...) Could somebody tell me what enrty could be used instead of the unsupported > #1D44? > Maybe it is as simple as DispOff ???? (if this is supported) I dimly remember searching for that entry myself, in one context or another. IIRC it's called something like CleanDispOff. I just used DispOff without any problems. HTH & HIWC (Hope It Won't Crash Greetings Thomas -- Thomas Rast If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S. Truman ==== On my computer I do not have a serial port. All I have is USB ports and a parallel port for printers, but I dont use it at the moment. Is is possible for me to link the HP49G with my computer? ==== I would recommend you to buy a USB - RS232 Interface. These is no other way to connect to your PC, because the HP49 doesnt have an infrared port ! Bernd > On my computer I do not have a serial port. All I have is USB ports > and a parallel port for printers, but I dont use it at the moment. Is is possible for me to link the HP49G with my computer? > ==== I would recommend you to buy a USB - RS232 > Interface. > These is no other way to connect to your PC, because > the HP49 doesnt have an infrared port ! Bernd > On my computer I do not have a serial port. All I have is USB ports > and a parallel port for printers, but I dont use it at the moment. Is is possible for me to link the HP49G with my computer? > Where can I get a USB - RS232? ==== [..] > On my computer I do not have a serial port. All I have is USB ports > and a parallel port for printers, but I dont use it at the moment. [..] Where can I get a USB - RS232? I use a Keyspan USA-19 Adapter ( http://www.keyspan.com/products/usb/pdaadapter/ ) on my PowerMac G4 with no problems. Communication software (Kermit & Xmodem): ZTerm. HTH Markus ==== I use a USB to serial converter, and it works just fine. Toby I would recommend you to buy a USB - RS232 > Interface. > These is no other way to connect to your PC, because > the HP49 doesnt have an infrared port ! Bernd > On my computer I do not have a serial port. All I have is USB ports > and a parallel port for printers, but I dont use it at the moment. Is is possible for me to link the HP49G with my computer? > ==== my understanding is that there is not. for the EMU49 application there is a ROM file available (rom.e49). Check at www.hpcalc.org Is there a ROM dump utility for the 49G? ==== Facing another problem with matrix and vector calculations... i have a quite huge fraction with a single element matrix as denominator one step prior to the final result. this matrix has to be a scalar. Question: how do i get the absolute value function to the equation writer? Andy ==== > Question: how do i get the absolute value function to the equation > writer? Can't you type it in or select it from the Catalog? Just guessing, since I'm not familiar with the HPxx Equation Writer. -- ==== Can you bring us the example (or smaller equivalent) here. I did not understand your question ??? Facing another problem with matrix and vector calculations... > i have a quite huge fraction with a single element matrix as > denominator one step prior to the final result. this matrix has to be > a scalar. Question: how do i get the absolute value function to the equation > writer? > Andy ==== I am a new h-p 49g user (running ROM version 1.19-6). I have been learning to use the calculator with the help of Gilberto Urroz's _Science and engineering mathematics with the hp 49 g volume 1_. I seem to be doing something wrong while attempting to generate a table of values for a function. The function is << -> x 'IFTE(x>0, x^2-1,2*x-1)'>. Following Urroz's directions I -- choose plot-type function in the Plot Setup dialogue; enter the expression/function into the EQ field: 'IFTE(x>0, x^2-1,2*x-1)'; set the independent variable to 'x' (lower case x); press [NXT][OK] to accept the changes made; after returning to normal calculator display I execute TBLSET and choose a starting value and an increment; press [OK]; after returning to normal calculator display I execute TABLE; Here is the problem: the expected independent variable (x) values are generated correctly but the corresponding dependent variable (Y1) values are all -1 without exception (which is only correct for x=0). Similar problems experienced with other functions: the generated table values for the dependent variable (Y1=x^2) yields the constant 0. What have I done wrong? or Is there something wrong with the software? _____________________________________ ==== after following the install instructions, I get a THEN error instructions fm program are: 1-Unprotect the card if necessary and merge it with MERGE1 (in the Left shift- Library menu). 2-Empty the whole port 0. For instructions, read chapter 28 of the User's Guide. If there is no important data in your calculator, it is easier to initialize it by pressing simultaneously the keys ON, A and F, and answering NO. 3-Transfer the program named RECV.KER from the PC to the calculator, with XMODEM or KERMIT. 4-Then transfer the file MKRAM.KER. XMODEM is recommended, because of the huge size of this file. In order to use XMODEM, with an HP48 REV R, just use the built-in command XRECV. With an HP48 REV M or P, first send the file XRECV.PRG from the PC to the calculator, then use it as if it was the standard XRECV command. 5-On the calculator, put the name of this file on the stack. and execute the program RECV.KER. the program doesn't seem to load or execute either from port 0 or port 2, nor fram the VAR cmd or from stack. any help is much appreciated. ==== after following the install instructions, I get a THEN error instructions fm program are: 1-Unprotect the card if necessary and merge it with MERGE1 (in the Left shift- Library menu). 2-Empty the whole port 0. For instructions, read chapter 28 of the User's Guide. If there is no important data in your calculator, it is easier to initialize it by pressing simultaneously the keys ON, A and F, and answering NO. 3-Transfer the program named RECV.KER from the PC to the calculator, with XMODEM or KERMIT. 4-Then transfer the file MKRAM.KER. XMODEM is recommended, because of the huge size of this file. In order to use XMODEM, with an HP48 REV R, just use the built-in command XRECV. With an HP48 REV M or P, first send the file XRECV.PRG from the PC to the calculator, then use it as if it was the standard XRECV command. 5-On the calculator, put the name of this file on the stack. and execute the program RECV.KER. the program doesn't seem to load or execute either from port 0 or port 2, nor fram the VAR cmd or from stack. any help is much appreciated. ==== Referring to step 5, are you puttingthe *name* of the file (eg 'MKRAM.KER') on the stack and then executing RECV.KER? Or are you simply placing the *contents* of MKRAM.KER on the stack? It must be the *name*. Hope this helps, -Al > after following the install instructions, I get a THEN error instructions fm program are: > 1-Unprotect the card if necessary and merge it with MERGE1 (in the > Left shift- > Library menu). 2-Empty the whole port 0. For instructions, read chapter 28 of the > User's Guide. > If there is no important data in your calculator, it is easier to > initialize > it by pressing simultaneously the keys ON, A and F, and > answering NO. 3-Transfer the program named RECV.KER from the PC to the calculator, > with XMODEM or KERMIT. 4-Then transfer the file MKRAM.KER. XMODEM is recommended, because of > the > huge size of this file. In order to use XMODEM, with an HP48 REV R, > just use > the built-in command XRECV. With an HP48 REV M or P, first send the > file > XRECV.PRG from the PC to the calculator, then use it as if it was the > standard > XRECV command. 5-On the calculator, put the name of this file on the stack. > and execute the program RECV.KER. > the program doesn't seem to load or execute either from port 0 or port > 2, nor fram the VAR cmd or from stack. any help is much appreciated. -- It aint what ya don't know but what ya know that aint so that can get you in trouble. - P. Thomas ==== Hope this helps: -Merge memory of port 1: MERGE1 -Transfer MKRAM.KER and store it: B STO -Transfer RECV.KER and store it: A STO -Put the name 'B' on level 1, and press A key This works ==== sin(x^2). Well, that looked easy. It's not. I guess calculators don't like to integrate trig functions if the argument isn't linear. I tried TLIN and so on, and nothing wanted to linearize it. Integrals.com says that the answer is sin(x^3)3, but I'm not sure if I believe that. My log tables don't have this one, either. Anybody have any ideas? Bill ==== > sin(x^2). Well, that looked easy. It's not. I guess calculators don't like to integrate trig functions > if the argument isn't linear. I tried TLIN and so on, and nothing > wanted to linearize it. Calculators don't handle symbolic manipulation of special functions yet. They'll get there, eventually. > Integrals.com says that the answer is sin(x^3)3, but I'm not sure if > I believe that. Good, because it's wrong sin(x^2) is not the correct syntax (it means sin*x^2). I get the correct answer involving the Fresnel sine integral if I use Sin[x^2]. In other words, there is no answer in terms of elementary functions. In general, the antiderivative of Sin[x^a] involves incomplete gamma functions (or exponential integrals of the first kind, however you want to look at it). -- ==== > sin(x^2). Well, that looked easy. It's not. I guess calculators don't like to integrate trig functions > if the argument isn't linear. I tried TLIN and so on, and nothing > wanted to linearize it. Integrals.com says that the answer is sin(x^3)3, but I'm not sure if > I believe that. My log tables don't have this one, either. Anybody have any ideas? Bill That's a Fresnel integral.. it has no closed form antiderivative. Look upon it as the imaginary part of the exp(x^2) integral.. And you must have entered it wrongly at ingerals.com... If you enter Sine[x^2], the answer returned is: a.FresnelS[x/a] with a = Sqrt[PI/2], and FresnelS the Fresnel Sine integral Werner Huysegoms ==== A story about my hp 41c and 82104a card reader. 82104A card reader for the HP 41. It describes very well, dis-assembly, repair and re-assembly of the card reader for purposes of the 'melting' drive wheel that afflicts these repaired reader. If it doesn't work properly, Dave mentions the cams that operate the 'fork' springs in the reader head. My reader has for some time given 'malfunction' a lot when reading/writing/verifying cards. There are two plastic cams. One has a 'tip' on it, the other, unless mine had a tip that broke off, has no 'tip', is just a round projection in the card path that operates the second of the two 'fork' springs. I think mine just wore too small from years of use. I'm writing this to give the benefit of my experience. My second cam wasn't lifting the 'fork' spring enough to make contact with the upper printed circuit board. (Some readers have copper springs and pc boards, mine is Gold!) What was needed was to add to the cam, the spring, or the pc board so that contact would be made by the traversing card. Epoxy on the cam was my first idea. A bad one. I'd suggest not messing with the cam. Putting solder on the spring would be a bad idea as springs get their characteristics from heating and cooling. What worked for me was to add solder to the pc board 'pad' that the spring contacted when the cam pushes it up. You have to put just enough solder to make the contact work, but not too much to make it contact all the time. I've taken my reader apart a few times. To put #6 'O'-rings on the drive spindle. The 5 wires that 'plug' into the 'motherboard' of the reader are tinned wires. After plugging and unplugging a few times they can lose their tinning and fray. I re-tinned two frayed wires. I also cut a reader card to slide into the space between the upper pc board and reader head to make sure the 'fork' springs were strait, it is easy to bend these springs, even a little may make the tips not be strait on the contact pad. My reader is now working again. d-8 ==== X > Don't you read this NG? :) Obviously I don't... Actually I did not assosiate your name with the only known failure... Too much post to read (and it's past midnight local time again) zzzzzz.... > I tried this, it didn't work on mine and may have made the backspace > key worse, and I posted it already... Pete: did you get a replacement unit from HP? How are those keys? ==== I have recently purchased a 49g+ and I would like to know what are the best files to add to it to make it purr like a kitten in my electrical engineering and physics courses. I have had and used a 48GX for years and still use it, and I have purchased a lot of the plug in software (i.e. Spice 48, EE pro, Physics pac and others), but I would like to retire it and go with the 49. I have read this NG for a year or two, but I am confused as to what would be the best software to add. I know a lot of you either teach, or work in these fields, and I am hoping that you can help. Al Hughes ==== IF YOU DON'T OPEN IT, HOW CAN CURIOSITY BE CURED?? The hp49G+ was made to be opened, it is very easy. Open your battery compartment. You will see two round plastic rivits. Use a razor blade and cut them off flush. They can be easily replaced with screws later, and are not even mandatory. Next use a small knife, or fingernail, and seperate the dark plastic band from the bottom half of the calculator. Do this starting up near the USB port, and working your way around the calculator. You will probably notice a slight gap in the trim piece up near the USB if you look closely. The calculator is snapped together during assembly, with the bottom half snapping to the top half. I have had mine apart 20 times and the snaps still grip and release like new. There is nothing more to opening the calculator. With dissambly this far, you can install a switching type DC power jack (I have), and even connect a LED (I have)in parallel with the pizo buzzer. This is also all the further you need to go if you are one of the people that bent a contact inside of your battery compartment, and you want to make a repair. Also, if your SD card socket would ever wear out from heavy use, you can order the part on the internet, and solder it in yourself. I absolutly love my hp, and it seems to me that someone took some well planned design considerations regarding repairability. These units could be repaired by most any dedicated amature, and most definatly anything could be handled by the factory. But quite honestly... at $150.. just buy a new one. If you desire, after this stage of disassembly... there are many more rivits that you can razor blade away if you want to see the other side of the board!!! John Evers ==== > Does anyone know how to open a HP 49G+? Carefully drill out the melted-over heads of the two gray heat stakes inside the battery compartment. (Don't use a power drill -- I used a counter-sink bit with a sharp ~3/16 bit mounted & twisted by hand.) Pry out the IR lens with a small screwdriver, working gently across the USB connector opening. Then, working in one direction or the other, carefully pry the gold bumper strip away from the black BACK case. (The bumper is part of the front case -- the black upper edge is applied and easily damaged -- don't pry against that.) You'll find pictures of what to expect inside at the Museum of HP Calculators Articles Forum [Article # 408 -- ] Go slow, and good luck! ==== >> What character set and file encoding must be used so that a text file >> can be written in notepad or word pad, and saved to the 48/49 without >> having to go in and edit the special characters? ie. sqrt and pi I >> know the ascii codes, and I can save as a text and encode as Some 49 hints: >1) [APPS] 2.I/O functions..[ENTER] 5.Transfer..[ENTER] Xlat: |CHOOS| >*note: the number on the left are the corresponding codes I put there* >0 None >1 Newline (Ch 10) >2 Chr 128-159 >3 Chr 128-255 >Select the last one >You could also do on the command line: >HOME 'IOPAR' 6 3. PUT >2) >This goes for all models: >http://www.finseth.com/~fin/hpdata/chars.html Some 48 hints: >1) >SX > [Left-Shit] [I/O] |SETUP| > I/O setup menu >IR/wire: wire >ASCII/binary: ASCII >baud: 9600 >parity: none 0 >checksum type: 3 >translate code:0 > To change the last one press [ 3 ] |TRAN| > For explanation look the codes on the GX example > eg. 0->None; 1->Newline, 2->Chr 128-159; 3->Chr 128-255 >GX > [Right-Shift] [I/O] Transfer..[ENTER] XLAT: |CHOOS| >*note: the number on the left are the corresponding codes I put there* >0 None >1 Newline (Ch 10) >2 Chr 128-159 >3 Chr 128-255 >Select the last one 2) Character Translations > SX: Chapter 33 (Volume II if 2 volumes) > GX: Page 27-16 HP48 G Series User's Guide Finally: (By John H Meyers) >http://membres.lycos.fr/ekalin/view_category.php?id=1 >How to Use the Backlash Sequences to Create Files in the PC > unicode, the formatting will work on the pc, but the calculator >> doesn't recognize it. I've loaded a HPGCalc.ttf into my font >> listing for windows, so I can type using the correct type set....just >> fails when I upload. I've already tried DOS text and windows text..no >> luck there either. >> TIA JB >> I can't help you with a HP48/49 (don't have one) but I think you're >> using my HPGCalc.ttf font. That font's fine, and as you say you're >> saving in Unicode, but the files still need to be translated. >> (If it's not my font ignore me) >> That font is designed for the HP38/39/40G calculators and special >> application software to convert from/to the calculator format and >> Unicode. I don't know of such software for the HP48/49 but that doesn't >> mean it doesn't exist. >> Also, I don't think ANY of the calculators would natively support >> Unicode so that probably will never work. I don't think there's a >> matching encoding unfortunately. >> Anyone else? >> Joshua King > ==== > X > That works for standard UserRPL.... > What about SysRPL/Asm? > You need the source and that's ASCII by default when i have the program in hp files menu, this is a string type file and when i open it starts whith: hphp48.......... dir. and after each line command there is a square point. ==== Exellent library. Just a little thing that would make it better - HDF doesn't act as DISP, 22 chrs long string will not fit the display as expected. We have created a new head manager. This 2-page library is only for > the HP49+ and makes it easy to use the new header or to integrate it > into the display for various environements. HeadMan is perfectly > usable but still under work. Note that some commands may still be > modified in future. > X > http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49/Headman.htm > X > http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49/index.htm#General > ==== > Exellent library. > Just a little thing that would make it better - HDF doesn't act as DISP, 22 > chrs long string will not fit the display as expected. > http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49/Headman.htm > http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49/index.htm#General HDF (Header Freeze) is similar to PROMPT but doesn't suspend (there will be no HLT indicator). To use the 2nd header line the input string should contain in both cases a linebreak before the line gets too long. I added this information to Headman.htm a few minutes ago :-) - Wolfgang ==== > I'm thinking about submitting a program to HPCalc.org. > It will require a library, but I don't want to use a library number for > anything that's already out there. Is there a list of current libraries, and if > not, how can I be sure that I won't be using a number that's already been used. > - Ian you did not say which calculator, but there are lists on hpcalc.org for HP48 and HP49. I am not sure when these lists have last been updated, but they should be sort of complete... Check out http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4532 http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=4533 ==== sorry to chase but I still have the same issue (I installed the font you told). The problem seems to be related to a HP48GOS1 font... > I have updated the web page to include: > > * Word and zipped Word version of the instruction document > * hp49font.zip - a file with hp 49 fonts > > I hope this solves the problem of the missing fonts. > > Gilberto Urroz ==== detachable 48, I'd be willing to buy something like what you are > describing ... or at least try it out. You bring up another interesting idea based on a slight alteration of my original concept. Rather than sawing up a G series unit (dead or otherwise - did any dead G series unit die a natural death??) as a donor for the keyboard/PDA project, perhaps a different project exists for a docking module that has legacy support? Instrument interface, secondary color display, deep archive (when is enough memory enough?), . Prior to the 48 series, HP had a dizzy number of gadgets and items available for their calculators. All necessitated by the lack of cheap large memory and cheap large PCs in that day. I do not propose going that route (way to much wire and gadgetry to go wrong) nor does the eXpander/TI 200 seem like an ideal direction. Essentially the intelligent choice comes down to the correct tool for the job. My table saw is fine by itself. But if I want to do tenon joints, I need a tenon jig. Dados are best with my dado blade set. The correct tool for the job/need as determined by the worker. I admit to remembering the days when people lamented over the feel of their slider and quality of the line on slide rules. [sigh] Of course, you could not plot anything other than a straight line with that tool. [grin] RDS ==== > This would appear to be the future for the professional world of > number crunching. Any thoughts? > > I try to be as open-minded as possible, and I've tried a whole slew of > handheld devices; for most purposes, when I need to make calculations, I > reach for my 41CV. I have yet to find a more efficient device for getting > the job done. Just the same!!! I have a PDA, powerfull, color, memory, etc, but when I want to do my Field Work (no electricity in rainforest) I use my HP, back in the office, the DeskTop. Finally I am going to chage my PDA for a brand new HP49G+ very soon. DePerez ==== > > Hmmm... Call me old-fashioned, ... > [Blush] Right. I was trying to describe a general shape, not a particular function. I'm too often typing myself into verbal corners from which I don't quite escape. Must read carefully and revise! In fact, I actually was at the hobby shop just yesterday, looking for a plastic model kit for a '57 ('59?) Cadillac. (Couldn't find one.) That image of an HP-49G+ with tail fins simply MUST be realized somehow . . . ==== X > In fact, I actually was at the hobby shop just yesterday, looking for > a plastic model kit for a '57 ('59?) Cadillac. (Couldn't find one.) > That image of an HP-49G+ with tail fins simply MUST be realized > somehow . . . NOW I know what tail fins means. Meaby it could be sold as an attachable assessory... Hmmm. Maybe the outer shell should be replaceable like in many Nokia phones ==== (big) OH! :-) ==== > the secret apparently is that one has press both [ON] and [F3] for a > LOOOOOOOOONG time. Then the library appears with > [Right-Shift] [ 2!!!!!!!!! ] eg. [LIB]. You may have experienced a case of an unrecognized key. Some keys have to be pressed harder or they won't be read - it's a well known problem. - JRM ==== > Then press first [ON] keep it down and press [F3] release both The time does not need to be long as long as you keep the [ON] pressed along with the [F3] So long, Walt! Long-John Nousiainen - longing to get my long lost HP-15C back before long PS: My favourite song (quit long) : It's a long lonely highway by Elvis The CD belongs to my brother, but I no longer live in the same city with him The longer I continue this - the longer my Pinocchio nose gets... (---; > After that you find the new library using: > [Right-Shift] [ 3 ] eg. [LIB] > X > and thanks. It worked even without Filer. Once 360 appears in port 2, > the secret apparently is that one has press both [ON] and [F3] for a > LOOOOOOOOONG time. Then the library appears with > [Right-Shift] [ 2!!!!!!!!! ] eg. [LIB]. That one really has to press *FAIRLY LONG*, should be stressed by > Rautenberg. I now have the OT49+ on both of my HP49+'s. > Walt. ==== I saw some references to rom 1.23 in some messages. Another message indicated that this would be available some time in January to the general public. Patience is a virtue, but I am a sinner. Some people have it included in new calculators. Is it possible (and legal) for this to be downloaded by these lucky flicker-deprived individuals, and then published somewhere on the web? X-Warning-1: Do not spam ==== > I saw some references to rom 1.23 in some messages. Another message > indicated that this would be available some time in January to the > general public. Patience is a virtue, but I am a sinner. Some people > have it included in new calculators. Is it possible (and legal) for > this to be downloaded by these lucky flicker-deprived individuals, and > then published somewhere on the web? If allowed and legal I'm willing to. However, I have no idea how to dump a 49+ rom. -- Hyperion ==== >>http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/SoftwareDescription.jsp?l > ocale=en_US?=English&pnameOID=351776&prodSeriesId=33568&prodTypeId=215348&ba > sePartNum=COL4344&locBasepartNum=ca-14082-3&os=Microsoft+Windows+XP&tech=App > lication > This is the new version of Con4x with help files and ASCII > support. It is 1.5 mb and works much better than previous. Also includes the new USB package. Ignore the old USB package on the web > site. I've been watching the home and home office support page for a > revised Conn4x or USB driver package, but it hasn't shown up there; only > under business support. It works on my PC. > Finally! 8-D HELP HELP HELP I can not get this to install. it extracts but does not tell me where. i have searched all hard drives with no luck. i double clicked the downloaded file it takes all but .5 of a second and is done. any help would be greatlly appriciated. thank you. TW ==== if that is the problem on my machine or not, since drive d is a > separate physical drive, and the install worked on drive c, just fine. The original Conn4X resides on the d drive, and I just sort of figured > the installer would upgrade existing files. I also have hp officejet > printer software on drive c. Maybe you have the answer though, I'll (or can I just call you 22/7 for short) >i had a little trouble getting it to go into a w98 pc, turns out I had two >different directories called Hewlett Packard in the c:program files >directory, because I also have an HP printer and jetdirect card as well as >the previously installed calc connectivity software, and this mightily >confused the uninstaller that tries to strip out the previous installation. >Once it was all tidied up into hewlet~1 though it all works fine >C My PC has one HD: 120GB IBM The Multiboot PC has WinXP on logical drive J: where the conn4x nicely went - just like before [WIN] ==== I have a problem with my hp49g+. When I want to start a program that I have transfered, I get a warning message : Undefined XLIB Name What does it mean ? What must I do ? Where can I find this library ? ==== There ars so many sd card maker. Is there any list for the compatible brand? ==== ==== > puft. Everybody knows (except maybe americans because of their simple media > manipulation) that the war on Irak was nothing more than a war for oil. So, if everyone else else gets only one side of the story then who is getting the whole story? Sounds a lot like there is world propaganda and not just American. They used the possible existence of weapons of mass destruction (womd) > to take the oil for themselves. Fact: the UN inspectors found NO EVIDENCE of the existence of the womd! Fact: Maybe not now, but they had them at one time and used them. There appears to be long term memory loss here. Do not forget the cozy deal the UN had with France, Germany, and Russia to gain huge profits from UN sanction deals with prewar Iraq at the expense of the Iraqi people. Do not forget the mass slaughter uncovered in Iraq. > Fact: Even now there is no evidence of the existence of womd in irak. > And don't forget that was the reason for the war! Fact: There is now evidence of terrorist ties from Iraqi documents. This is why we went to war anyway. Fact: About 3000 people died in the US when we were bombed with the airliners! Many of us ignorant Americans remember this. Fact: We Americans reserve the right to wage war on those that act to destroy us. > Fact: In the 'rebuild' of irak only american or american-friendly > companies were select. wich shows an obvius economic interest. Fact: To the victors go the spoils, This is how it has always been. Read your history. Why would you give contracts to those that do not support your efforts? Do you favor those that hinder your efforts? Anyway. This seems to be a very economic-war... Fact: All wars are economic, another history lesson. Fact: We occupied Japan and Germany also. It seems that the best way to gain ecomomic strength is to wage war with USA and suffer defeat! BTW there was also a country in the same situation as irak, it is called > Timor it was taken by Indonesia in the late 70«s. The US did > absolutely nothing.... The was no oil perhaps...? Perhaps they did not threaten U.S. security. What was you nation's response to Indonesian aggression? > My advise to the american people: you shouldn't trust your media to much > since they can't (or won't) tell the whole truth. Get informed about > what's really happening in the world... You will find that most Americans do not trust American media. Do you trust yours? We Americans have many faults and make many mistakes but we take action when everyone else just wants to talk. now let us get back to calculators Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! > Greetings. <199dd7ad.0312281916.4fc7f70f@posting.google.com> ==== In message , David > Fact: Maybe not now, but they had them at one time and used them. > There appears to be long term memory loss here. > Do not forget the cozy deal the UN had with France, Germany, and Russia > to gain huge profits from UN sanction deals with prewar Iraq at the > expense of the Iraqi people. What cozy deal was this exactly? Do you mean the Oil For Food Programme? If you read carefully you'll see that, of the funds from oil sales, 2.2% went for United Nations administrative and operational costs and 0.8% for the weapons inspection programme. All the rest went on food and medicine for Iraqis. By way of comparison, the American Red Cross had Management and General operating expenses of 5% with a further 4% spent on fund raising. >Do not forget the mass slaughter uncovered in Iraq. Indeed. But surely Bush senior put a stop to that with the introduction of, for example, the Kurdish autonomous region in the North. Or are you saying that, for the 10 years or so of the enforcement of the no fly zones, America knew of mass slaughter but stood by and allowed it to happen? > Fact: To the victors go the spoils, This is how it has always been. > Read your history. I wouldn't say this statement was universally true. If we consider just the major wars that the Americans have been involved in then it is only 50:50. - in the Indian wars you slaughtered the natives and stole their lands - a classic case of the victor getting the spoils - after the first world war, huge reparations were demanded (admittedly by the French mostly) but Germany was never able to pay them, so 50:50 - after the second world war the Marshall Plan meant that the losers gained significantly - the exact opposite of your argument. > Why would you give contracts to those that do not support your efforts? Contracts should be given to those who can most efficiently carry out the work. These will inevitably be local firms and other than for specialist work, no western firms, American or European, should be getting much work. > Do you favor those that hinder your efforts? You are confusing the actions of European *governments* with European *companies*. >> Anyway. This seems to be a very economic-war... > > Fact: All wars are economic, another history lesson. Does this include the second Gulf War? Earlier in your post you said that the reason for the war was to destroy WMDs. > Fact: We occupied Japan and Germany also. It seems that the best way to > gain ecomomic strength is to wage war with USA and suffer defeat! So you agree that your to the victors go the spoils statement is wrong? > You will find that most Americans do not trust American media. Can you post a URL for a poll result that supports this argument? I can't seem to find one. -- Bruce Horrocks Surrey England ==== well your speech seems to be a very imperialistic one... perhaps if you lived about 100 years ago your kind of speech would be acceptable, but not in todays world. It is because of this type of reasoning that the there is an increasing hate for americans in the world. you seem to care about nothing except yourselves, and nobody likes selfish people. and about the 3000 americans that died. i'm sorry, nobody deserves to die! But americans, in their so called colateral damages, have killed many thousands more. even in the past month 12 afegan children were killed... by the way, throughout history there have been many empires, but they all fell... ==== > Fact: All wars are economic, another history lesson. > Fact: We occupied Japan and Germany also. It seems that the best way to > gain ecomomic strength is to wage war with USA and suffer defeat! > Did you ever read The Mouse that Roared? Harold A. Climer Dept.Of Physics,Geology,and Astronomy University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Chattanooga TN USA 37403 ==== >> Fact: All wars are economic, another history lesson. I got into _MAJOR_ trouble with my high school history teachers over this point. They did not like it at all that I could demonstrate the economic basis of every war that they had us study: the Punic Wars, the British Raj, the American Revolutionary and Civil Wars, .... Please, note that I do not claim that other factors were not important as well or that the teachers were incorrect for teaching those other factors, such as religion or revenge. Herbert Hoover: ``Older men declare war. But it is the youth that must fight and die.'' >> Fact: We occupied Japan and Germany also. It seems that the best way to >> gain ecomomic strength is to wage war with USA and suffer defeat! >Did you ever read The Mouse that Roared? Yes, I have and seen the movie as well. Plot summary < http://www.oxfordbooks.com/win/mouseroar.html >: Adapted from Leonard Wibberley's satirical novel, the world's smallest country, the Duchy of Grand Fenwick, keeps their economy afloat by exporting their wine, Pinot Grand Fenwick, to America. When the state of California bottles a cheaper version, Pinot Grand Enwick, bankruptcy looms its ugly head for the tiny Duchy, so it decides to wage war against America. The mouse won by an asymmetrical method. Dec. 04, 1998 PT by that title. Come to think of it: that mouse won also. >Harold A. Climer >Dept.Of Physics,Geology,and Astronomy >University of Tennessee at Chattanooga >Chattanooga TN USA 37403 ==== >> puft. >> >> Everybody knows (except maybe americans because of their simple media >> manipulation) that the war on Irak was nothing more than a war for >> oil. You EEeeeddioott! The REAL reason for the war has *something* to do with oil and > economy, but its not a war FOR the oil(profits wont make up for cost > of war... but the cost of the war really makes up for its > consequence---keeping economic oil control, against the EURO) duuuhhh! so it's was for the control of oil!!! and the believe me, the consequences of the war on the price of oil do make up for the costs. search around on the net... >> >> They used the possible existence of weapons of mass destruction >> (womd) to take the oil for themselves. >> >> Fact: the UN inspectors found NO EVIDENCE of the existence of the >> womd! Fact: Even now there is no evidence of the existence of womd in >> irak. >> And don't forget that was the reason for the war! >> Fact: In the 'rebuild' of irak only american or american-friendly >> companies were select. wich shows an obvius economic >> interest. >> >> Anyway. This seems to be a very economic-war... > > Fact: You are a dumbass > Fact: Your a buttmuncher A what?!? be careful or i'll sue you! :) Nice arguments, when you don't known what to say, just insult people. Tipical... > >> My advise to the american people: you shouldn't trust your media to >> much since they can't (or won't) tell the whole truth. Get informed >> about what's really happening in the world... >> >My advice to you: Just stfu i won't shut up! your own constution gives me the rigth to say what i want! don't you know you live in a free country? >> Greetings. ==== I`m sorry to say that the war in Irak is useless. Americans, you have *freedom* irak. why don`t you let irakies rebuild their own nation???? ==== I thought this was a forum for HP CALCULATORS? There are other rooms for political stuff...I know, I use them. >I`m sorry to say that the war in Irak is useless. Americans, you have >*freedom* irak. why don`t you let irakies rebuild their own nation???? ==== > > know can be determined by sending data from Hyperterminal(?) or EMU48 to a > 48gx. However, what has set me back is your comment: > > The only problem is that you have to be careful > not to have the XOFF or XON signals in the data. > > This is serious. I sort of assumed that with pacing only activated for SRECV > this wouldn't be a problem. Well, let's see. If you have receive pacing enabled but transmit pacing disabled, then an XOFF or XON in the data stream coming in to the calculator isn't a problem. But if you have transmit pacing enabled, then an XOFF or XON coming in to the calculator is treated as a flow control signal, not data, and never shows up in the input buffer. Similar considerations would apply to the other device, although I don't know of any other devices where transmit and receive pacing can be enabled/disabled separately. Well, I don't expect that my printers even have the option to do transmit pacing, but the only thing that they ever transmit are the XOFF and XON signals. And of course it does no good to have receive pacing enabled on one device without having transmit pacing enabled on the other device, and vice versa. > If I was using a PIC or other microcontroller I > suppose I could eliminate the Xon and Xoff signals in the data by jumping over > those signals, e.g. add 00000100 to all bytes with a MSB of 1, and make a > software correction later. But the hardware is being built from generic ICs > and, while still feasible, adds extra complexity and current drain. And I > didn't know the 49g lacked pacing so pacing will probably have to be avoided > anyway. If you want your project to work with the 49G (and, I guess, the 48gII) as well as the 48 series, you'll have to find a way to do it without depending on software flow control. Rather a shame, isn't it? > Maybe something like this: > > N Level 1, # of 255 byte blocks > << XXX Garbage collection command > 1 - 0 SWAP Sets loop size > START > 255 SRECV Receives data in N 255 byte blocks > DROP No error checks > NEXT > CLOSEIO >> > > There might be a timing problem here if SRECV automatically executes CLOSEIO > and it takes longer than about 0.5millisec to execute that CLOSEIO, reenter the > START loop, enter the 255, and have SRECV reopen the port. If so, I can add > some more delay time in the hardware. The real weakness is the lack of error > checking, and that is where the Xon/Xoff came in. In any case I'll certainly be > doing some PC to 48gx testing as you suggested. No, SRECV doesn't do a CLOSEIO. The only thing that I know of (other than CLOSEIO) that closes the I/O port is turning the calculator off, either explicitly or by an auto-off. But what's the point of doing a CLOSEIO anyway? I guess that you're transmitting from the other device in 255-byte chunks with a sufficient delay between them that you're certain that the calculator will have time to process what it's received and be ready and waiting for the next chunk? Well, it might work. Also consider a stop and wait method where the calculator sends back a signal that it's ready for more data. -- James ==== > If you want your project to work with the 49G (and, I guess, the 48gII) > as well as the 48 series, you'll have to find a way to do it without > depending on software flow control. Rather a shame, isn't it? But on second thought, it might be possible to implement, more or less, your own XON/XOFF receive pacing on the calculator. Say start out by transmitting an XOFF, then doing a BUFLEN followed by an SRECV, then transmitting an XON, followed a short time later by an XOFF. Whether this would work would seem to me to be a matter of timing, and would depend on the transmission speed, how fast the other device responds to the signals, and how fast the XOFF could be sent after the XON. And for transmit pacing, check all strings received and anything still in the input buffer for an XOFF signal before transmitting. If an XOFF is in there, then remove it from the data stream and set a flag of some sort for don't transmit. Then check the remainder of the data for an XON to be removed and clear the flag if it's found. When the input buffer is empty, everything's been checked for XOFF or XON signals, and the flag is clear, send a small (small being defined by the characteristics of the other device) chunk and then check the input buffer for XOFF and XON signals again before sending the next chunk. And of course if the other device uses some other pair of flow control signals, you'd have the calculator use them instead of XON and XOFF. I don't know; it sounds pretty clumsy, but it's something to think about, and perhaps experiment with. -- James ==== > >> need to know can be determined by sending data from Hyperterminal(?) >> or EMU48 to a 48gx. However, what has set me back is your comment: >> >> The only problem is that you have to be careful >> not to have the XOFF or XON signals in the data. >> >> >> This is serious. I sort of assumed that with pacing only activated for >> SRECV this wouldn't be a problem. If I was using a PIC or other > > > It's a long, long time since I did any of this but I think that James is > slightly mistaken. The XON/XOFF characters are sent by the *receiving* > device to the transmitting device in order to regulate the flow of data > coming down to it. > > The *transmitting* device takes no notice of any XON/XOFF characters > that happen to be in the data stream as they are irrelevant. It only > acts on XON/XOFF characters received from the device that it is > transmitting to. Yes, perhaps I wasn't clear on that. But if the receiving device has transmit pacing enabled while it's receiving, then any XON or XOFF bytes in the data stream are treated as signals, not data, and thus are removed from the data stream, as well as quite possibly causing a problem when the receiving device next becomes a transmitting device. -- James ==== > assembler on 49g+): CODE > INTOFF > SAVE > LC(5) 50000 %this first bit is just a pause > *PAUSE > C=C-1 A > GONC PAUSE > A=0 W %this is where the real program starts > ABIT=1.0 > *GETI > C=A A > OUT=C=IN > ?C=0 A -> GETI > ACEX A > INTON > GOSBVL Flush > GOSBVL PUSH#ALOOP > ENDCODE > @ Theoretically, I should run it, and it will not stop until > I press a button in the right column (ENT, +, -, etc.), at > which point it should return the row number. It does in fact > do this, but what I don't understand is that if I hold down > any other key for a second or so, it will stop and return > that key's row number. Shouldn't this be impossible, since > the other keys should not be getting any signal from OUT? > Even presing ON will return #1000000000000000b. I know the > program is written horribly, but still. When scanning for keys using the =CINRTN subroutine I think it is best to disable interrupts completely (a little unsafe if your code is buggy though, need a paperclip reset in that case). This piece of code does what I think you want (in traditional hp syntax): CODE GOSBVL =SAVPTR INTOFF * turn off keyboard interrupts ST=0 15 * turn off all I/O C=0 A * set keyboard row C=C+1 A OUT=C GETI GOSBVL =CINRTN * scan for key ?C=0 B GOYES GETI A=C A * read key LC(3) #1FF * set all rows OUT=C - GOSBVL =CINRTN * wait for key up ?C#0 B GOYES - INTON * turn on keyboard interrupts ST=1 15 * turn on I/O GOVLNG =PUSH#ALOOP * push bint to stack ENDCODE -- Daniel ==== I have the hp49g+ about a month now and I can tell you its a great calc besides the keyboard. My probem is that the keyboard sometimes dont register but it is because i didn't press hard enough. it is not a mechanical problem. There is a bigger problem with the keyboard : IT IS VERY NOISY. Yesterday I sat in a test and the only calc in the class that could be heard is mine. Do you think HP will replace the unit if I will tell them the calc is noisy ? I will not give a f___. And what will come out if I return this unit ? a new calc that is noisy too so I prefer to stay with mine until they will fix the keyboard. What do you say ? replacing a unit because it is too noisy is acceptable ? Bye Idan ==== > What do you say ? replacing a unit because it is too noisy is > acceptable ? There's only one sure way to find out. Call HP and ask! Tom Lake -- Capaci Occasio ==== I mean of course that hp will not give a f____. sorry.. ==== > I mean of course that hp will not give a f____. sorry.. Well, in those circumstances I can agree that the noise must be annoying. However, I will be using the calc mainly in the office at work, so the noise will be less an issue there. Computer keyboards make also a lot of noise if you will. Maybe TI calculators are not so good compared to HP on certain points, but I must say that the keyboard of my TI-83 (5 years old now) is very good: => no recognition errors => no noise => little spring feeling when pressing a key => no ratling sounds when shaking the device => good readable markings that do not go off after time => blablabla As you can see, it's possible to design and manufactor almost perfect keyboards! I'm sure HP can also, but, almost in every company nowadays: 1) enineering time 2) test time 3) test budget 4) product costs 5) production costs 6) quality assurance are under pressure! I would be willing to pay twice the price for such a calculator if the thing is good designed and tested. Unfortunately, most of us do not. Oh well, do not blame the engineers! They are put frequently with their backs against te wall to take decisions they do not want to take you know. (look at the Columbia and the Challenger disasters...) I know because I'm working more than 5 years now in product development... Good luck with the HP 49g+, more then likely I will buy one and fund HP's next calculator project. Fons ==== ok got ya. pls stop crying. who cares abt u > I mean of course that hp will not give a f____. sorry.. ==== > ok got ya. pls stop crying. who cares abt u > I mean of course that hp will not give a f____. sorry.. Even if nobody would care about the opinion of an individual, the fact is, reth, that apparently NOBODY teached you some manners! Even if this is an anonymous thread, you should keep your comments like this for yourself. If you want to get rid of your frustrations, I suggest you raise another thread especially for that... ==== There are many people in this group that will be glad to hear my review. Low quality isn't an issue that i should stop crying about. And if you don't find this issue important or intresting - so don't read ! Bye ==== There are many people in this group that will be glad to hear my review. Low quality isn't an issue that i should stop crying about. And if you don't find this issue important or intresting - so don't read ! Bye ==== OK it works perfectly fine now, thank you. Though some last questions for you. I know now that FuncPSetup1 is for the plot setup, but what is it for the other views. NOTE = NotesViewUI SKETCH = PictViewUI But PLOT, SYMB, NUM and NUMSETUP remains a mystery for me. And how do you plot something on the plot screen? Like 0.5 0.5 PIXON (or LINEON) in HP-Basic (but then in Sys-RPL) (PS. I will post the source code of the aplet with enabled views on this topic when it's finished) ==== > if you need REAL battery life you can connect together 4 AA NiMH > rechargeables, and run the leads into your battery compartment > utilizing some homemade dummy batteries. This provides 5.5 volts as > measured under no load, and about 5.35 volts measured under load of > the 49G+. Please try running a non-stop program for 24 hours with that setup. If it succeeds, I might have a bad 49g+, because mine turned off without warning or apparent reason, and when resumed, turned off sooner, and then even sooner, until it finally refused to stay on for more than a few moments. The only thing I can think of is that something (the CPU?) was overheating. Not desiring to fry my 49g+, I returned to regular batteries. I'll be immensely grateful if you could run the above-mentioned test and report your findings here. -Joe- ==== ...simply: THANK YOU ERIC for you effort to make an update before the new year Kickaha -- Per rispondere rimuovere il SiPAriuM To reply remove the SiPAriuM ==== > Actually, I want to disable the Auto Power Off feature in EMU48 http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=3a6cc698%40news.swol.de > I suppose it will be the same method as for the real calculator. Nope. But there *is* a method for the real 48 (sort of :-) in V22N3 of Datafile, page 34: http://www.hpcc.org/datafile.html#V22N3 ==== > Does anyone know how to open a HP 49G+? John > Throw it with big power to the wall. If it isn't open then go to the 5th floor, open the window and drop it. When it hits the ground it will certainly be open. Aagje> ==== Didn't work :-))) Aagje a .8ecrit dans le message de > Does anyone know how to open a HP 49G+? > > John > > Throw it with big power to the wall. If it isn't open then go to the 5th floor, > open the window and drop it. When it hits the ground it will certainly be open. > > Aagje> ==== I figured out how to make directories in {HOME}, fill them with files and then transfer it to the SD card. Once there though, I can not look at just one file, it piles them all together. I'm trying to add in text files and be able to see them from the SD card and still keep things organized.. I've added Filer...no luck there. any suggestions? TIA ==== > I figured out how to make directories in {HOME}, fill them with files > and then transfer it to the SD card. Once there though, I can not > look at just one file, it piles them all together. I'm trying to add > in text files and be able to see them from the SD card and still keep > things organized.. I've added Filer...no luck there. any > suggestions? Not sure exactly what you want, but the way to address a single file in DOS directories in an SD card in the 49g+ is thus: :3:{ Folder1 Folder2 ... Filename } The following commands understand the above: STO, RCL, EVAL, PURGE, VTYPE, and PRVAR. (Did I forget any?) Hope this helps! If not, holler. -Joe- ==== SD card and put them into subdirectories for ease of finding them again. I've found that scrolling through a ton of file names just plain suck...unless there is an easier method then subdirectories. >> I figured out how to make directories in {HOME}, fill them with files >> and then transfer it to the SD card. Once there though, I can not >> look at just one file, it piles them all together. I'm trying to add >> in text files and be able to see them from the SD card and still keep >> things organized.. I've added Filer...no luck there. any >> suggestions? > >Not sure exactly what you want, but the way to address a single file >in DOS directories in an SD card in the 49g+ is thus: > >:3:{ Folder1 Folder2 ... Filename } > >The following commands understand the above: STO, RCL, EVAL, PURGE, >VTYPE, and PRVAR. (Did I forget any?) > >Hope this helps! If not, holler. > >-Joe- ==== As said in the user manual, directories are currently not supported in SD card. Maybe in a future rom release... Season's Greetings, Herve > I figured out how to make directories in {HOME}, fill them with files > and then transfer it to the SD card. Once there though, I can not > look at just one file, it piles them all together. I'm trying to add > in text files and be able to see them from the SD card and still keep > things organized.. I've added Filer...no luck there. any > suggestions? > TIA ==== Not sure what them meant by unsupported, since I can make the directories, fill then with files and then move them to teh SD card. The problem is seperating them within that directory. I assume the unsupported means that you can't look into a directory while it's on the SD card. I'll write HP, but thanks for the help. >As said in the user manual, directories are currently not supported in SD >card. Maybe in a future rom release... >Season's Greetings, >Herve > >> I figured out how to make directories in {HOME}, fill them with files >> and then transfer it to the SD card. Once there though, I can not >> look at just one file, it piles them all together. I'm trying to add >> in text files and be able to see them from the SD card and still keep >> things organized.. I've added Filer...no luck there. any >> suggestions? >> TIA > > Roland