HP-23 ==== > from the old 49G, adding several functions to it. The problem is, it is > now 113 functions, and that is really way to much for just one long soft > menu (19 pages). Is there a way to have a nested $VISIBLE menu for a > library, like how many of the built-in menus have? For example, if you > press the [SYMB] button, then there are ALG, ARITH, CALC, etc. sub-menus > shown, instead of all of the functions. This is basically what I would > like to do with the menu for my library of functions. I am using the > CRLIB from 256 MENU to create the library. Well, the system is most definitly not designed to do that.... however, that does not mean that it can not be done :-) you might be able to do it using the extention program (there is a message sent to the program when the users presses on the library button, so you could rewrite your own menu at this point and create sub-directory)... ==== > > > from the old 49G, adding several functions to it. The problem is, it is > > now 113 functions, and that is really way to much for just one long soft > > menu (19 pages). Is there a way to have a nested $VISIBLE menu for a > > library, like how many of the built-in menus have? For example, if you > > press the [SYMB] button, then there are ALG, ARITH, CALC, etc. sub-menus > > shown, instead of all of the functions. This is basically what I would > > like to do with the menu for my library of functions. I am using the > > CRLIB from 256 MENU to create the library. > > Well, the system is most definitly not designed to do that.... > however, that does not mean that it can not be done :-) > > you might be able to do it using the extention program (there is a message > sent to the program when the users presses on the library button, so you > could rewrite your own menu at this point and create sub-directory)... > What Cyrille hints at is using the library message handler for this, as described in Appendix B.2.3 of Programming in SystemRPL 2nd Edition. I have used this in the constant Tools Library (http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3179) to implemented left and right shift functionality for keys in the $VISIBLE menu. You can even completely ignore the $VISIBLE rompointers and install any menu you like through the message handler The only disadvantage is that this only work if you access the library menu through the LIBS key/menu. If you do 1234 MENU, the message handler is (unfortunately) not called. Cyrille, could this be called a bug? If yes, Jean Yves please consider this message as a bug report. - Carsten ==== > What Cyrille hints at is using the library message handler for this, > as described in Appendix B.2.3 of Programming in SystemRPL 2nd Edition. > I have used this in the constant Tools Library > (http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3179) to implemented left and > right shift functionality for keys in the $VISIBLE menu. > You can even completely ignore the $VISIBLE rompointers and > install any menu you like through the message handler > The only disadvantage is that this only work if you access the > library menu through the LIBS key/menu. If you do 1234 MENU, the > message handler is (unfortunately) not called. Theoretically, the MENU (and TMENU) command could easily be expanded to do the same as if pressing the corresponding LIB menu key which calls the library number as a message handler my means of which one can create the most complex menus programmed by $EXTPRG. But only very few people use $EXTPRG because it assumes familiarity with SysRPL. Thus, reprogramming probably doesn't pay for the developers. First of all, Christopher has to know whether all his 118 visibles are needed as visible rompointers. This is the case only if others should use them in their programs or key assignments. The ones executable only by key need not necessarily be rompointers but just menu names. Secondly, he has to know how the built-in menu system is organized - very similar to that of a complex CST menu with subdirecties. Knowing the latter would even suffice though some details may not be documented. There is still the possibility of destinating a special rompointer, call it MkMenu, which sets the desired menu with all its subdirectories. This is done in Timeman, for instance. The command Aset sets here a particular menu related to alarms whose options need not be programmable. This keeps the number of visible rompointers in a library small. At any rate, the possibility of creating HELP options in CAT for complex but important lib commands should be used as much as possible as soon as somebody offers his library to the public. The more that memory space isn't anymore a problem on the 49+. This is supported by the library manager D<->L from OT49(+) for users not familiar with SysRPL. - Wolfgang http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49/OT49.htm ==== > >> It was a charger for AA/AAA rechargeable lithium-ion batteries. I > >> wonder, has anyone tried these batteries before in the HP49/HP49+ or > >> perhaps other models? > >> I found these at RadioShack, link: > >> http://www.radioshack.ca/estore > Product.aspx?language=en-CA&product=2318298&category=Lithium-lo > +Rechargeable&catalog=RadioShack http://www.rayovac.com/15minutes/facts.html should clear up the 'IC-3 technology', which appears as a rapid-charge NiMH by those docs. In checking, my NiMH AA 2 pack was Energizer 1700mAh 1.2v. > I was actually seeking information on Lithium-Ion batteries instead of NiMH > or NiCd. I actually saw charger and batteries in the Lithium-lon > Rechargeable section of RadioShack, the only item in the group. I thus > assumed that these were indeed lithium batteries, but I guess not. I was > specifically asking about lithium batteries because I've never had > experience with them. You would probably need a battery pack. Individual cell voltages are (during most of the discharge cycle) about 3.6v, with a wider range between charged voltage and discharged voltage; 3 alkalines have a wider range than 1 when they are ran in series as the HP calcs use them. I do not know the min/max voltages that the calcs allow while still operating. Li-ion cells will also discharge somewhat on their own. http://voltaicpower.com/Secondaries/li-ion.htm may have some useful battery details, but I'm sure google would have had more to say if I looked at the results for 6 secs instead of 5. > I've used rechargeable alkaline batteries before, and they were fairly cheap > and charged rather quickly. The only complaint I had with them is that you > had to recharge them before their charge was depleated. The brand I used, > Pure Energy claimed really long shelf-life as well, but typically half > the batteries would begin to leak after a year. My rayovac rechargeable alkaline charger should charge batteries in under 4 hrs if i remember right, but the connections are badly oxidized since I never cleaned them since I got it many years ago. I still have my origional 8 AAA batteries that I bought and keep in my wireless super nintendo controllers when i got into the batteries, but I've had others leak. In my last 3 packs of 4 AA batteries I bought all at once, i later realized that 1 had a leaky battery. I should send it to rayovac if I can get a free good pack. > I generally like to use batteries until their last piece of charge, without > worrying about them permanently loosing some of their capacity, as in > alkaline cells. Charging once every 2 months when they aren't dead still by far beats charging every week and a half because they discharged too much (perhaose risking memory loss/lithium cr2032 cell drainage. > Yes, NiMH batteries loose charge if not used up, but they're generally more > reliable than NiCds, their memory effect is not as problematic as NiCd > batteries, and the current provided is a bit higher. They can also be > recharged many times, around 1000 times they claim. I generally use NiMH > batteries in cases that require rechargeable batteries, but sometimes > they're too expensive. Here it's around $10 CND for two AA NiMH batteries > if I recall correctly. My NiMH were around $6-$10 US I think, but it was far too long ago for me to remember specifically now. NiMH should match voltage, but NiMH have greater capacity. I really haven't had any memory problems, nor did I find them worth ever concerning myself about. As a result, I no longer remember what leads to memory problems. =/ I don't know how the batteries perform as the charge cycles move on in NiMH for certain, but NiCD end up with shorter runtimes as the cycles add up. > batteries in AA/AAA sizes, do they exist? At least close to AA size, but usually slightly larger. If used in the AAA calcs, and you find that you are bulding your own 'battery box', consider multiple cells paralelled for extra capacity, and perhapse a charge port that allows you to charge cells without removing them, or charge individual cells. =) > RadioShack makes it seem like they exist, and it is possible to make them. Radio Shack makes a lot of things 'seem' to be. I try to follow scientific fact over what Radio Shack retailers tell me. I need to bring my ARRL handbook with me next time I go in so that I can make it clear that their understanding of gold plating for connectors is wrong...Well, as I was saying... Ed Sutton ==== The SD card reader in my HP49G+ failed yesterday. This doesn't bode well for the new HP calcs. I didn't have problems with the paint flaking off, and haven't got any keys that doesn't work (but quite a few keypresses not registered!). Well, the keyboard is better than the one on the HP49G by far - it has a very good feel too, if it would just register keystrokes at a broader angle of attack (or else the bounce algorithm should be recoded). I have also experienced a couple of freezes that required RESET. One time was when using the BZ uncompressor on a large object (20k) and another time in the filer. Using ROM v1.22. have probably inserted and extrcated an SD card 20 or 30 times over the last weeks before the reader failed. ON-D 7 reports CARD TEST FAIL, and this happens with all 4 SD cards (all 128 MB versions) I own (and they work fine in my external reader on Win2k and WinXP). They are of course formatted with FAT16 aso. the loss is acceptable. The problem is that now that I have seen how easily the SD card reader fails, there's no chance that I *will* buy a new one :-) I think I'll contact HP Denmark for a replacement, but if they won't touch it, I guess my HP49G+ story is over for now. Anobody else with failing SD card readers on the HP49G+? ==== > Anobody else with failing SD card readers on the HP49G+? Not yet, my hp49g+ survived around 30 SD card in/out cycles so far. Some 256MB and some 64MB. I have to say that I have seen some very spectacular LCD layouts when trying to do something with SD card .. -- Mario Mikocevic (Mozgy) mozgy at hinet dot hr It's never too late to have a good childhood! The older you are, the better the toys! My favourite FUBAR ... ==== Just thought I'd throw in my $0.02 worth about the 49g+ from perhaps a slightly different perspective than some others have. I just received my 49g+ yesterday from Samson Cables (just over two weeks delivered to Vancouver, BC, Canada) and have messed around with it a fair bit already. I will briefly run through some of the obvious things and touch a little upon something that I haven't seen mentioned here much - User RPL speed. FYI, I also own an HP-97, 11C, 48SX and 49G and at one point owned a 41CV, 28C and 71B as well. Knowing me, this might become a fairly long posting, so you are warned... ;-) (Yup, it has... long and drawn out...) 1) If the keyboard didn't have a few bad keys, I would quite like it. As it stands, my 7 and right-shift key are spotty and require a little more pressure. With my 49g+, it definitely seems to be strictly a mechanical contact problem - if the 7 key doesn't register, press a little harder without releasing and it will register then. Nevertheless, unless it gets worse, I still prefer it to my 49G's keyboard (if anything, it may have already gotten a little better.) I have already gotten in the habit of pressing slightly harder and rarely miss a key now. For piece-of-mind, I find it beneficial, indeed almost necessary, to have the key-beep function on however. Man, what I wouldn't do to have a classic HP high-quality keyboard with the large Enter key on the 49g+ though... 2) While the 49g+ feels quite light and hollow, the case is actually quite rigid and accurately assembled (tight seams etc.) and not at all creaky. One wonders if the 49g+ could have been made thinner (and denser) overall with maybe a little more taper towards the bottom by having a side-mounted SD card slot. I was surprised to see that the 49g+ is actually larger (slightly wider and longer although slightly thinner) than my 48SX with its two huge expansion card slots! I have already gotten used to the weight and density of the 49g+ and it does not bother me, although the battery compartment position does make it slightly top-heavy when doing hand-held calculations. 3) The LCD is beautiful! It totally puts my 48SX LCD to shame and has much, much better contrast. It is also much better than my 49G where, even though the contrast is good, the LCD pixels cast fairly long internal shadows in some lighting conditions and the display is deeply recessed behind that thick piece of plastic. This makes it hard to read small fonts and soft-menus on the 49G screen when, for example, using a single desk lamp that is well off to the left or right of the calculator. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that the 49g+ pixels still cast shadows, but the shadow density seems lower and they seem a little shorter. In any case, all in all, a great LCD display on the 49g+! (Smaller pixels and higher resolution would, of course, still be appreciated...) 4) Yes, there is a slight sporadic flicker on the bottom two or three rows of pixels, both with ROM 1.20 and 1.22 and with or without the clock display. I am surprised at how bothered people are by this. For me it is a non-issue, but I can see how others may be more annoyed by it. 5) The painted case and printed keys (I think) concern me. I can't see it holding up as well to heavy use like my 11C has for the last 20 years! I wish, as do many others perhaps, that at some point HP will revert back to their classic styling and readable colour schemes with a darker, matte finish. Having bright shiny gold paint, that light glares from, can make the 49g+ key labels hard to read at times. It is certainly an improvement in legibility over the 49G though, but nowhere near as legible (IMO) as my 48SX is. 6) SD slot is a great feature. USB... generally yes, also good. For frequent uploading and downloading of data, it is more convenient than swapping the SD card in and out but I sure wish the 49g+ would have implemented a standard USB Mass-Storage compliant interface. That way it could be plugged in, without drivers or software, to most modern operating systems - including Macintosh systems - and simply come up on the machine as one or more mounted drives. Then files could simply be transferred via drag-and-drop. Although I suppose HP would then also have to include some sort of utility to help with the various text-file character translation modes - or have automatic translation occur in the calculator perhaps. 7) The tiny included manual is very inadequate. There isn't even a quick-reference booklet anymore. As many others have said, HP used to make the best manuals. No longer, it seems. Heck, I think my 11C manual was even larger! HP should include an equivalent to the excellent 48G Series AUR manual or at least have one available for purchase. None of the PDF files I have downloaded for the 49G or 49g+ come close. If anyone can point me to a function/command-reference for the 49G series, I would be most appreciative! I do use my 48G AUR for the 49 but there is certainly a lot of functionality that is not covered... 8) I find it somewhat inexcusable that with the return of an IR port, the 49g+ cannot communicate with older HP 48 series calculators - this really surprises me. Also, while I don't personally mind the lack of a wired serial port, I can see why others would like to have one. It would be nice if HP would make a premium version of the 49g+... built-in RS232 (as well as USB and IR), a classic high-quality keyboard (large Enter key also!) with full and detailed printed documentation. I would be more than willing to pay an extra $100 (or whatever) for a premium version if need be. Please... no debates on whether or not this should have already been included in the existing price - I realize there will likely be much disagreement on that point. Now -finally!- to the main part of my post... SPEED! For some perspective on my following comments keep this in mind: I almost never use the CAS and I rarely use function plotting. In general, the built-in functionality of my 48SX is all I need, although a few enhancements such as input forms and additional list processing functions etc. have been a welcome addition on the newer models. Heck, if the 71B had been designed with a multi-line display, I would probably still be using it today. The larger display was my main reason for going with the 28C and then the 48SX - not all the built-in symbolics or plotting functions. Of course, User RPL is also much nicer than BASIC though... (my opinion!) In any case... my main use for HP calculators, since the 71B, has been for high-level language programming of software to solve numerical problems - first BASIC on the 71B and then User RPL starting with the 28C, then the 48SX and 49G . Not Forth or Assembler or System RPL. I have taken a huge liking to User RPL because of its elegance, flexibility and its massive number of built in functions that speed coding and help to simplify programs. I have written everything from a phone-number database program, to astronomy software (calculating planetary and solar data for example) to a topographical map coordinate translation program (not sure what to call that one.) In general, I usually have a substantial and friendly user-interface on my software and have written all manner of routines for prompted data input, multi-page full-screen list displays (similar to choose-boxes), output text formatting etc. - all in User RPL. However... anyone who has tried to program such things in User RPL will likely be able to relate: some parts of my programs always felt sluggish. They worked well, worked reliably and were easy to use, but often... ran... so... s--l--o--w--l--y... Don't even start... ;-) Yes I know I should have learned System RPL or Saturn assembly but I couldn't be bothered. I already knew Pascal, Modula-2, C, C++, 80x86 assembly etc. and just couldn't be bothered to learn yet another programming language which, in the end, would only be applicable to my calculator. This is where, for me, I find the biggest improvement in the 49g+. My programs run so much faster! My display output formatting routines are speedy and everything feels substantially snappier. I'm sure a stopwatch would report a disappointing increase in speed but believe me, it sure feels like a lot more than the two or three-fold improvement (on average) that it is. The 49g+ must have crossed a kind of magical threshold for me where suddenly the user-interface speed (or lack thereof) is no longer noticeable or bothersome. The 49G was an improvement over the 48SX in this way as well, but nowhere near as much an improvement as the 49g+ is. The frequent pauses (garbage collection?) that occurred when running my programs on the 49G also seem to be a thing of the past. So there you have it. Despite its flaws, I am (so far) very happy with the purchase of my new hp 49g+. It has breathed new life into my existing programs and rather than learning how to write software for the Palm-OS (in order to gain some speed in a portable computing device), I will simply be happy to keep using what I like and what I am already familiar with - User RPL. Hopefully there is even more room for improvement if HP can start converting more ROM routines into native ARM code. One feature request I would like to make of User RPL though: now that we have lots of RAM and SD memory, why not add the ability to comment one's programs ?!! HP? Are you listening...? That's all folks... If you actually managed to read through all of Mike Mander ==== > [...] > One feature request I would like to make of User RPL though: now that > we have lots of RAM and SD memory, why not add the ability to comment > one's programs ?!! HP? Are you listening...? You can comment UserRPL code when you develop it on a PC. During a Kermit upload, the calculator will not only translate the << etc. trigraph sequences to their RPL words, but also discard everything between @ and newline. As you know, the programs are compiled during upload, so all formatting and comments are lost. If you really want commented code on the calc, you may want to keep source code as string object, or use comment DROP sequences, both of which may be waste of memory. Georg. ==== So you are so important that if you buy one calculator for $130 that is something great. Who are you, JC? > > >> Don't expect any coments here. Your post is politically incorrect. > >> Everybody knows that HP calculators are The Best Calculators In The > >> World. Oh... They don't work?... Really?.... So what?... > >> > >> I returned mine too. Back to TI 89. > >> > >> A.L. > > > >I always wondered why so many TI users post here. Are you just > >looking for complains so you can add your amen? I don't want to > >start anything here, but it seems to me that half the conflicts are > >resolved with HP sucks yah I love my TI. I believe there is a > >group for TI posters as well, and if not I suggest you create one. > > Because I have some nice HP calculators from the time when they were > manufactured by HP, and I like them (unfortunately, my HP16 was > stolen last week from my office). I am using TI because the golden > age of HP calculators is past, and the whole story with the newest > one seems for me like an attempt to reanimate dead body. However, if > they fix problems with their newest model, I will buy one. For a > while I don't love them enough to pretend that there are no > problems. > > A.L. > > P.S. I have also huge collection of Sharps, including early pocket > computers and large collection of Casio. I simply like calculators > as gadgets. But I don't LOVE them such as the majority of people > that post to this group do. ==== I have a 38G that I got without manual. I have nearly figured out how it works but can't seem to be able to do any programming on it. Does anyone know where I could find information about that or an online manual. Arnaud ==== > > But doesn't theTI use a table lookup for doing integrals etc? If it > > does, it is not quite fair to compare it to an HP unless it is using > > the exact same method. You can not compare Apples and Oranges. > > Why in the world would that not be fair? All that counts is if I get a > solution. I could not care less if the calculator uses a warp drive to > cruise out to hyperspace in order to find out that int cos(x) > dx=sin(x), or if it looks up the result in a table. I agree with Helen. There is, at least, a large precedent for such comparisons (e.g. the Steinhaus benchmark). > Now, of course, if > the subset of integrals that the HP can find was substantially larger > than the one for the TIs, that would be a different matter, but that > does not seem to be the case. One thing that would be relatively easy to implement is Horowitz reduction: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HorowitzReduction.html It is part of MathTools, but it would be nicer if it were built-in. > On the other hand, Parisse is correct that there are, indeed, cases > were the HP is faster fidning integrals than the TIs, so that is > something one has to keep in mind. That is the case in any CAS comparison, pretty much. There are always examples one of them does faster. A general comparison should therefore be weighted for commonly used things. -- Bhuvanesh ==== > My guess is that shes reeeeeaaaaaaaallllllllyyyyyy old. > She said she used HP calcs when i was in diapers.... hell, now thats a hag!!! I'm guessing she said that because your posts sound childish. I'm not saying your position is wrong, but you don't show any evidence supporting your claims. Kinda like me saying, HP's suck! TI's rock! BTW, please don't take my comments negatively. I'm just trying to explain my impression based on your posts. -- Bhuvanesh ==== > > My guess is that shes reeeeeaaaaaaaallllllllyyyyyy old. > > She said she used HP calcs when i was in diapers.... hell, now thats a hag!!! > > I'm guessing she said that because your posts sound childish. I'm not > saying your position is wrong, but you don't show any evidence > supporting your claims. Kinda like me saying, HP's suck! TI's rock! > > BTW, please don't take my comments negatively. I'm just trying to > explain my impression based on your posts. Yep. I pretty much said HP rules TI drools... but when the hag asked and parisse and many others. I think its just reckless for a blind TI user (JIC not talking about you, some of your posts are indeed cool) to go into a newsgroups HP48 And start ranting and complaining and indirectly insulting people. BTW, i wont take your comments negatively. Theres no need to. Also... please dont take mine the wrong way... I just dont like to see *TI can do that easy!!* when reffered to an HP issue... im sure no one does... but keep making those comments. PS: Bhuv where ya from?? Just curious. ==== Let's get even more fundamental- the nontechnical coworkers of the engineers and draftsmen all understand what a 180 degree turnabout is; they know 90 degrees (I'm not sure about 0 degrees, however), but they all think pi is something their auntie makes for them on a holiday. And then there are kids- students, pre-teenagers really, beginning to receive instruction on angles and circles. I think radians, polar coordinates, etc., are kind of beyond the complete grasp of most kids that age, no matter how bright, except for the gifted few. > right > >> angle? > >> > > Why should I do it with a rational numbers? Why not as > > pi * a rational number? > > This is the same kind of question as if I ask you for the length of > > an arc of a circle of radius 1 given its measure in degree or radians. > > When an angle is specified, how often is the reason so that someone can > determine the length of the arc of a circle given the angle and the > circle's radius, or the radius of a circle given the angle and length of > an arc? > > I expect that more commonly, the interest is in the sides or other > angles of a triangle. After all, doesn't the word trigonometry come > from the Greek for triangle measuring? I expect that, at least > initially, the ancients became interested in discovering and exploring > the subject due to practical interests in the properties of triangles. > > Some angles of particular interest, although expressible as pi times a > rational number of radians, can't be expressed as a pi times a > non-repeating decimal number of radians. > > This one's weak, but just tradition and common usage. *We* would know > that, for example, an angle specified as pi * 1/2 radian is a right > angle, but I'd bet that a lot of people who need to use angular measures > don't know what a radian is. > > Can you imagine a draftsman ever specifying an angle in radians? Even as > pi times a rational number of radians? Or someone looking at the print > understanding what it means? I doubt that radian measure is even > mentioned in any of the relevant standards. If I have to calculate an > angle and compare it to the specification, I need it in usually in > decimal degrees, or just possibly degrees, minutes, and seconds, but > never in radians. > > Radian measure does seem natural for mathematics, especially for > mathematics beyond basic trigonometry, and even for that I'd think that > understanding radian measure is essential to any real understanding > beyond using cookbook formulas. > > But for non-mathematicians, I expect the familiar degrees for angular > measure to be used a long time into the future, although with the use of > calculators and computers, degrees, minutes and seconds are giving way > to decimal degrees. And certainly mathematicians should be able to > convert these to radian measure, but many non-mathematicians would have > problems converting radian measure to degrees. > ==== > Let's get even more fundamental- the nontechnical coworkers of the > engineers and draftsmen all understand what a 180 degree turnabout is; > they know 90 degrees (I'm not sure about 0 degrees, however), but they > all think pi is something their auntie makes for them on a holiday. > > And then there are kids- students, pre-teenagers really, beginning to > receive instruction on angles and circles. I think radians, polar > coordinates, etc., are kind of beyond the complete grasp of most kids > that age, no matter how bright, except for the gifted few. You are mixing two different notions, radians and polar coordinates. I believe that the perimeter of a circle expressed as pi*diameter is teached in primary school. Therefore I don't see any reason why a child who understands the perimeter of a circle would not understand the measure of an arc of circle, and therefore the measure of the corresponding angle in radians. It's just because teachers are so used to degrees that they teach degrees before radians. Polar coordinates is much more complex, and should not be taught before say 15 years when people understand what coordinates are. ==== A second, somewhat less brief take on this issue... > You will always find examples that are faster on one of the calc > and conversely, it was still the case with the HP49, e.g. look > at Olivier Miclo comparisons. If you don't take many examples, > then why not judge with my favorite example 1/(x^4+1)^4 :-)? Good example, point taken. So there are integrals that the HP does faster than the TI. Good. > Numerical integration is not part of the CAS, it is part > of the HP48 (and most probably the 28). Therefore I > never made testings, do you judge on one example or > on a representative list of examples? That seems to be the case generally. I am somewhat curious as to why that is, actually, and would be interested in examples where it might not be the case. I really do not understand why the TIs are so much faster in that case, just as I don't understand why they are so excruciatingly slow in the linear lagebra area. > Seems simple, but it is in fact long to do if you want > to be sufficiently sure not to forget one case. Moreover > I'm not sure it is possible to find a good definition > for exp(i*x)*sin(x) if x is in degree. Well, I am sure you understand that that issue has nothing at all to do with a CAS. Just check what numerical values you get for, say, i*sin(x)-sinh(i*x), with x any real number, when in degrees mode. So, yes, degrees mode is clearly a kludge, meant for a very special subset of applications, and for that particular case I may even agree with you that reminding the user of that fact can be useful. You may notice, however, that no calculator issues any warnings when users try to evaluate mixed expressions containing trigonometric and non-trogonometric functions in degrees mode. I think the philosophy is simply to assume that the user knows what s/he is doing. Which is not always true, of course... On the other hand, it is clear that, with your attempt to confine the discussion to the forced radians-mode switch, you are being disingenious, to the point of being misleading. Given the fact that you have a good understanding both of the mathematics and the technical aspects, I must assume that this is intentional on your part. The pertinent word for this kind of a snow job is dishonesty. You know as well as I do that none of the issues around degrees mode exist with respect to any of the other mode switches. Do you deny this? > Then set the silent flag on, and press shift-i or shift-num > simultaneously to switch the modes if they have changed > (something you can check with the header). Or even better > define a user key assignement which restores your default > flag configuration. I guess you are even writing this with a straight face... -- Helen. ==== > On the other hand, it is clear that, with your attempt to confine the > discussion to the forced radians-mode switch, you are being > disingenious, to the point of being misleading. Given the fact that > you have a good understanding both of the mathematics and the > technical aspects, I must assume that this is intentional on your > part. The pertinent word for this kind of a snow job is dishonesty. > You know as well as I do that none of the issues around degrees mode > exist with respect to any of the other mode switches. Do you deny > this? > I'm not sure I understand what you say. There are not that many flags that are not restored by the CAS: those I consider affecting so much the CAS behavior that I warn the user the CAS must change them to solve the problem, and that this change will completely modify the next CAS command. This is the case for approx mode and complex mode. ==== > I'm not sure I understand what you say. There are not that many > flags that are not restored by the CAS: > those I consider affecting so much the CAS behavior that > I warn the user the CAS must change them to solve the problem, > and that this change will completely modify the next CAS command. > This is the case for approx mode and complex mode. Yes, so why don't you restore the flags after the command is done? What I am saying is that there are no issues of the kind one might perceive for the degrees/radian switch for these flags. You know this very well, and yet you try to suggest to people (apparently successfully to some of the more naive participants in this thread) that there is a rational reason not to restore the flags. As I have said before, there is no other CAS in common use that requires the kinds of silly mode switches that yours has. Why do you think that is? could still type in their arguments in terms of their familiar units (and do so easily and conveniently), and all the inconsistencies of degrees mode would be avoided. ==== > > Yes, so why don't you restore the flags after the command is done? > What I am saying is that there are no issues of the kind one might > perceive for the degrees/radian switch for these flags. You know this > very well, and yet you try to suggest to people (apparently > successfully to some of the more naive participants in this thread) > that there is a rational reason not to restore the flags. As I have > said before, there is no other CAS in common use that requires the > kinds of silly mode switches that yours has. Why do you think that is? > I have no idea, but for sure it gives users of these systems habits so that they think other way of doing things is wrong. Following the same kind of idea, one could say: RPN is completely silly because none of the calculator manufacturers except HP make RPN calculators. The interesting question should be: given someone who does not know any CAS system, and knows enough math to understand what really happens, would he find my mode switches really silly? About approx mode, I believe that the TI89 solved this using AUTO mode, following the blackbox-CAS philosophy I don't like. I think it is much preferable that students are confronted to the problem of choosing exact/approx mode as soon as possible. Remember that I developped the 49G CAS as a mathematical pedagogical tool. Note that even popular PC CAS like Maple are sometimes very inconsistent on exact/approx mode, for example if you enter 0.0 as initial value for a recurrence relation like x->sqrt(2+x), it will return exact values (tested with maple V.5). ==== > I have no idea, but for sure it gives users of these systems habits > so that they think other way of doing things is wrong. Following > the same kind of idea, one could say: RPN is completely silly because > none of the calculator manufacturers except HP make RPN calculators. But that is not what I am saying. > The interesting question should be: given someone who does not know > any CAS system, and knows enough math to understand what really happens, > would he find my mode switches really silly? Yes, that is the question. The answer to the question actually has little to do with whether or not we are talking about a CAS, or some other system. This is a question as to how one should design user interfaces in such situations. I'll give you an example: When you run a game on a PC, often times the design of the game may require that you switch resolutions and/or color depths of the display. All the games that are on the market (all current ones, anyway) handle this in such a way that, potentially after asking the user (there is nothing wrong with asking, of course), the resolution is switched, and, once the user quits the game, the graphics configuration in effect before the game ran is restored (but not restoring the graphics configuration would be considered inane). Now, just go out and ask somebody what s/he would think of a software designer who, like you, says something like well, if you don't like the new graphics settings, press shift-i or shift-num simultaneously to switch the modes if they have changed, or my conclusion on this is that users of previous games had some habits, they just did not learn a few new tricks. See what kind of answers you will get. > Note that even popular PC CAS like > Maple are sometimes very inconsistent on exact/approx mode, > for example if you enter 0.0 as initial value for a > recurrence relation like x->sqrt(2+x), it will return exact values > (tested with maple V.5). I can't check Maple V.5; they are at release 9 now... In any case, the behavior you describe would be considered a bug. I just checked in R8, and there the issue does not exist. -- Helen. ==== >>The interesting question should be: given someone who does not know >>any CAS system, and knows enough math to understand what really happens, >>would he find my mode switches really silly? > > > Yes, that is the question. The answer to the question actually has > little to do with whether or not we are talking about a CAS, or some > other system. This is a question as to how one should design user > interfaces in such situations. I'll give you an example: When you run > a game on a PC, often times the design of the game may require that > you switch resolutions and/or color depths of the display. All the > games that are on the market (all current ones, anyway) handle this in > such a way that, potentially after asking the user (there is nothing > wrong with asking, of course), the resolution is switched, and, once > the user quits the game, the graphics configuration in effect before > the game ran is restored (but not restoring the graphics configuration > would be considered inane). > > Now, just go out and ask somebody what s/he would think of a software > designer who, like you, says something like well, if you don't like > the new graphics settings, press shift-i or shift-num simultaneously > to switch the modes if they have changed, or my conclusion on this > is that users of previous games had some habits, they just did not > learn a few new tricks. See what kind of answers you will get. > > I don't consider your comparison to be correct, because the game does not interfer with the rest of the applications. You will not for example use a result of the game that would depend on the screen resolution in your spradsheet. The CAS answer after the CAS command that switched the mode will be used in another command or displayed so that the user will read it and it has a meaning depending on this flag. You could avoid mode switch in a context non-sensitive CAS, but that does not exist, or you would have to pass so many arguments to any subroutine that it would never be usable. ==== > > qu'il r.8epond... > > Vous a-t-il r.8epondu ? La traduction reste toujours aussi foireuse. :-) Absolument pas... et je ne retiens pas mon souffle. > Je me demande quand cette superbe machine contenant Un syst.8fme d'alg.8fbre > d'ordinateur (CAS) ins.8er.8e d.8evelopp.8e haut pour manipulation symbolique future > et solution progressive sera r.8eellement dispo en France. > > A priori, il semble qu'elle n'est pas pr.8evue dans les FNAC pour le moment... Oui, c'est bien triste. Mais il me semble quand m.90me avoir aper.8du un nouveau mod.8fle HP (genre calc scientifique) .88 la FNAC Bellecour, .88 Lyon, il y a quelques jours. Alors, qui sa.94t, on reverra peut-.90tre les 4x... Jeremy Gibbons X-Face: #0?irvdFiM!(Tpl}/tO%_kuSW_^9G5aeIEnY1uNPcd@N_U.B30*[%N-cnqSC,rEfeqm:b oR({RM{x03]Iv}^2xc7J][^MkbL3DYdLevZ$&h0WbH!i:>O1i#FLy/mO2G~xMF *uQnfN4xre8v9%0fqg;i.!ymm~6w2nEx);Q~Q*8&dUO(fn ==== > Pour les francophones, allez voir la description de la HP49g+ sur le site > suisse de HP : > > http://h40043.www4.hp.com/products/calculator/graf49gplus_f.htm > > Absolument LAMENTABLE. > > Quand on lit une pareille traduction d'une multinationale comme HP on se > demande vraiment si cette marque consid.8fre encore ses clients autrement que > comme des pompes .88 frics ou des cr.8etins. > > Au lieu de s'occuper de ses stocks-options, de ses actionnaires et de virer > xxx% du personnel, Madame Carla Fiorina ferait bien d'embaucher des > traducteurs... Quand on constate un tel niveau d'amateurisme pour dans une > telle multinationale, on ne s'.8etonne plus des probl.8fmes de claviers ou de > piles des HP49g+. > > Il fut un temps o.9d HP .8etait synonyme de qualit.8e.... > Il fut un temps... :-(( > > Gilles > > ************* > Extrait : > > - Un syst.8fme d'alg.8fbre d'ordinateur (CAS) ins.8er.8e d.8evelopp.8e haut pour > manipulation symbolique future et solution progressive > - La capacit.8e localiser .88 limiter, .88 manipuler, copient et des expressions > d.8ecoupent, ins.8frent r.8esoudre progressivement. > - Entr.8ee de donn.8ees tr.8fs simple le mode de texte dans UPN ou alg.8ebrique. > - Grande m.8emoire interne avec un .8elargissement de la m.8emoire par les > Secure-Digital (SD) carte. USB raccordement pour des PC rapporte rapides .88 > l'.8echange des programmes .88 partir des PC ou d'Internet > - Large multiplicit.8e de possibilit.8es de solution des d.8epenses de r.8esultat et > des solutions d'avis dans 2 ou dans la repr.8esentation graphique dans 3D. > > ************** Je ne vois pas seulement de sorte que vous reprochiez ait cette traduction. Elle est bien pr.8esent.8ee et il n'y a aucun d.8efaut des othographes dans les mots. Il est incompr.8ehensible ? Il est exact un d.8etail. Ce qui importe l'intoxication, .88 condition que la bouteille soit eue... Merde : c'est l'inverse : - ( Merci babelfish :-D -- Ceci est une signature automatique de MesNews. Site : http://mesnews.no-ip.com ==== > Dear Wolfgang, I appreciate heaps your work. Recently I started > dealing with the HP49G+. It seems to me your Keyman Library > (otherwise brilliant) is serving the HP49 ok. > I can't get a short, normal hit on my 49g+ in 99 out of 100 hits. > It's always been treted as a Long hold. > It must have to do with the difference in speeds. > I just can't reproduce your examples. > I've been trying, still... > Please, help! [Received from ] Dear all, it is impossible for me to answer all question I get daily concerning my is written in Keyman.htm. On the 49+, you *must* create a variable 'lht' in HOME in which you should store 1000 (as a zint or real). Maybe 900 is also OK, or perhaps 1100. In addition, write << 360. ->KEYTIME >> in the variable STARTUP. It is not true that the number in KEYTIME is irrelevant for the HP49+, at least not in ROM 1.22. As far as I remember the default value in KEYTIME is 0. But then some keys have a tendency to bounce. - Wolfgang ==== >Wolfgang- >Your HP49G+ page one of the first I checked out >when I did a search a few days ago. Looks like you've >got a good selection of tools there for download. Are all >of the tools listed on your page 49G+ compatible? >My question to you is this: I've not been able to find >information on the commands and arguments required for >the built-in libraries 256 and 257. Can you provide info >or links to same? Are there any other built-in libraries >that I'm not aware of? There are a lot of built-in libs. But these are the only two which are not attached automatically. However, they are attached by the library OT49+. Some of the commands of this libs are easily understood. But the majority need some knowlegde of the operating system. Unfortunately, I don't know a document which explains them to the normal user, not to the hacker. Maybe somebody knows? - Wolfgang http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49 ==== The t being added to the integral means the built-in CAS cannot integrate the function symbolically. You'll need to try some substitutions or another process to integrate it. Be sure to check out these sources for more help on integrating on the 49G and 49G+: 1) Nick's calculus marathons and 2) The 49G+ training aids on integration on www.hp.com/calculators These were written by Nick and are very good. Gene P.S. Why should you have to try substitution? Because there are times when people are still smarter than machines! -- * These statements and opinions are mine alone and do not reflect my employer's views. * > I tried the integration with my 49g+ with approx mode *off*. > > #1 - got the exact result 3*e^4 > #2 - calculator did something weird to the integral -- kept adding 't'. > Anyone else know what's up with that? > #3 - did the same thing as #2 .. kept adding 't' to the integral > #4 - got 2*pi*sqrt(2) > > > > Howdy, > > > > Earlier I tried to argue that HP's calculators were numerically superior > > to TI's, but I didn't have any evidence to back my position. > > > > Now, I have evidence, but its not quite what I expected. > > > > Take a look for yourself. > > http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~dherring/calculators/ > > > > Enjoy, > > Daniel Herring > ==== > I hate to have to tell my students that only > a TI calculator will work with them.( LabPro) > I really leaves a bad taste in my mouth not > to be able to say HP's will work too. Doesn't the HP48GII offer exactly what you need? If I'm not mistaken, it has the same RS232 port as the original HP48SX/GX. -Joe- ==== >> I hate to have to tell my students that only >> a TI calculator will work with them.( LabPro) >> I really leaves a bad taste in my mouth not >> to be able to say HP's will work too. > >Doesn't the HP48GII offer exactly what you need? If I'm not mistaken, >it has the same RS232 port as the original HP48SX/GX. > >-Joe- It might be OK when they get all the bugs worked out. Unfortunately the GII has no FLASH upgrade capability and also has a smaller user RAM left after the OS overhead than the GX,,which will work.( albeit much more slowly than the GII) Of course that might not make a difference. You would have to write your own software for the GII to talk to the interface box, but I do not see that as being too much of a problem considering all the great 48 programmers that prowl these regions Some simple programs have already been written for the Vernier ULI box which also has an RS-232 port A Programmer's Reference Manual is available for both the ULI box and LabPro on Vernier's web site. Some energetic young lad might even be able to sell them to Vernier and I would not have that bad taste in my mouth any longer, Harold A. Climer Physics/Geology/Astronomy Lab Instructor U. Tennessee At Chattanooga ==== It occurred to me that, with all the memory that's available on a 49g+, there isn't anything keeping one from storing a brief summary of all available commands, to be utilized when trying something new. I robotically walked through the CAT menu, appending each command to a string, and then parsed the string into a sorted, corrected list of 762 command strings. I envision three lists, each with the same number of entries: 1. the 762 commands (perhaps to grow in the future?); 2. a list of strings briefly explaining what the corresponding commands do, and 3. a list of lists, each detailing the various combinations of arguments accepted by the corresponding command. (Remember the CATALOG function on the 28C/S?) A simple application would return the explanation of and/or arguments allowed for a given command. Of course, once the information is available in a structured form, other bells & whistles could follow. (I don't think a .pdf reader would be the way to go just yet ... ) The whole business should fit well within the 49G+ memory, and could be stored on the SD card by experienced users when not in use. I figure if several folks could divide up the investigation & data entry, we could have a shared resource in no time. (Its availability might make for greater acceptance of the new model among new users.) Responses? Ideas? Am I off base? (Is there something already available??) Do let me know! ==== > Well, I decided to attempt to just disassemble the ROM. Does anyone > happen to have any pointers that could simplify this task a bit? For > starters, it would be quite helpful to know where the actual starting > point is and what this ROM contains. Sorry for the delay, here is what I could find: The 1.19.6 rom is ~4Mnibbles long. Actually, if you dump it with hexdump, you'll see that only 2Mnibbles are really used, the rest seems garbage. It starts with 0000000 6 2 9 4 0 8 0 1 8 0 3 0 1 0 0 0 The 1.22 rom is ~2.5Mnibbles long. I looked for the nibbles above and could find them at nibble #78000 (491520): 0078000 6 2 9 4 0 8 0 1 8 0 3 0 1 0 0 0 So I got rid of the preceding ~500Knibbles (which might very well be arm native code), and the result was a 2Mnibbles rom. I tried it on the Saturn 4.1.1.1 emulator, but of course it didn't work :o) (why ? new opcodes for instance, and some new hardware accesses) I then wanted to check for saturn-visible rom differences. On 1.19.6 roms, what is seen by Saturn as address #0 resides at nibble #40000: 0040000 7 0 0 0 0 4 3 0 5 2 3 6 d 6 1 8 So I again stripped off the previous 256Knibbles part of each rom. Then I launched vimdiff between both hexdumps, and I could then see only the little differences between 1.19.6 and 1.22 (I should have kept a 1.20 copy somewhere, there would have been even fewer differences). That's how I could see the 81Bx and BUSCC tricks. What is left ? Well, I even don't know that much about the 49g rom layout, so I can't tell much about the 256Knibbles part, but I'd really try to disassemble the 512Knibbles part, and maybe find some saturn emulator code ? Samuel Thibault ==== >> Anyway I'm afraid we will never see this changes made to the 49g+. >Yes, it's quite unlikely, unless they hire a CAS developer. You seem to implicate, that Mr Parrise and the rest of the team, which developed the CAS of the HP49G(+) could not be called CAS developers? Mathias -- Mathias Habel mathias.habel_no-spam_@t-online.de Remove _no-spam_ before replying ==== > > For me the issue isn't speed or being able to see the keys, it's that my > thumb isn't long enough to reach easily across the width of the entire > keyboard. I can reach the first four columns easily but have to juggle > the calculator a bit in my hand to reach the fifth column, which is a > bit awkward and makes me worry that sooner or later I'm going to drop > it while doing this. I'd prefer to have all the numeric and arithmetic > keys in the first four columns for that reason. While its not too much of a problem for me to hold the calculator in my left hand and reach the far column (my piano teacher always commented on the reach my hand size gives me) I can see how it would be a problem. But that does raise the issue of why the calculator should be changed to suit you at the expense of those who would then find the new arrangement difficult. ==== > But that does raise the issue of why the calculator should be changed > to suit you at the expense of those who would then find the new > arrangement difficult. It also raises the issue of why it ever was changed in the first place, since the arrangement I want is exactly what the 41 already had. In fact, almost every HP handheld from the first HP-35 right down to the HP-41 had the arrangement I prefer. Why was it changed on the 48 and following models at the expense of everyone who was accustomed to the original arrangement? -- Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== Sorry, but it was changed with the 10-series. 11c, 12c, and 15c have the arithmetic keys arranged the way the 48/49 have them These calculators were intro'd back in 1981. Gene -- * These statements and opinions are mine alone and do not reflect my employer's views. * > > > But that does raise the issue of why the calculator should be changed > > to suit you at the expense of those who would then find the new > > arrangement difficult. > > It also raises the issue of why it ever was changed in the first place, > since the arrangement I want is exactly what the 41 already had. > In fact, almost every HP handheld from the first HP-35 right down to > the HP-41 had the arrangement I prefer. Why was it changed on the 48 > and following models at the expense of everyone who was accustomed to > the original arrangement? > > -- > Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise > fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give > | your pelt to the trapper. > e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== oN 06-Nov-03, Wayne Brown said: > It also raises the issue of why it ever was changed in the first > place, since the arrangement I want is exactly what the 41 already > had. In fact, almost every HP handheld from the first HP-35 right > down to the HP-41 had the arrangement I prefer. Why was it changed > on the 48 and following models at the expense of everyone who was > accustomed to the original arrangement? Damned good question! But it's Carly's HP now, and she doesn't seem to be much on constructive input.... -- Bill ==== Whenever I use ON+C to reboot the calculator, I lose my system font size setting and have to re-set it every time -- none of the other settings seem to be affected. This is rather annoying -- think it'll be fixed in a ROM update, or is there something I'm missing here? Matthew F. G. ==== I think it's the suits, ties, and faux calculators that are unrealistic in the picture! :) > Well... It may be shocking but I'm an engineer (CE) too and I do get to > field work on a semi-regular basis. I'm sorry, but hard hats and safety > glasses (and possibly OSHA required steal-toed work boots) don't go well > with suits, ties and faux calculators. ;-) > > Greg > > ==== oN 05-Nov-03, motz said: > On my hp49g+ I have rom v1.22 uploaded via conn4X under WinXP Pro. I > did try the example on page 5-12 of the User's Manual. In RPN mode, > entering each tick enclosed expression followed by DIV2 produced a > result of > > X^7 + X^5 + X^3 +X > X - 1 > > There were no labels, per se; but it seems reasonable that the stack > level 2 contained the quotient, and stack level 1 contained the > remainder. I tried it in algebraic mode, and got only error messages. > Don't give up on your calc ...(yet :^). I think experience and > patience will reveal it to be a pretty marvelous tool. Sure beats the > hell out of an abacus ... at least for me. I haven't and won't. But so far, I am more than a little disappointed. In the old days, an HP calculator manual was practically a math class, but now, it's barely an intro. > Keep trying various things with your conn4X, also. I had trouble at > first, but if you see your hp49g+ driver show up under device manager > with the calc plugged IN and ON; then make sure you're using the RED > right-shift key and the CHROME right-arrow to invoke the XMODEM SERVER > it might just begin to make sense. The directions are a little > intimidating; but they did work for me. Especially the calculator > reset manuever afterwards. They say to hold the (+) and (-) keys down > together and after you use the paper clip gadget trick , wait a little > bit before releasing those keys. (I didn't do the WAIT thing, but it > still worked, anyway!) I got it done. I had some keyboard issues of my own , and once I got that right, *and* did all the sequence things as given in the dialog (clicking my heels together three times, too, for luck), it did work. > Some win98SE user's haven't had any luck with conn4X and went the SD > route, instead. I was ready to do that, too; until I discovered that > I was using the wrong key for my right arrow. I used the little red > right arrow above the 0 key ... WRONGO! heh heh! Pretty stupid on > my part, but funny it is ... looking back on it! > > I bought a 256MB SD module from Costco, along with the SD Imagemate 8 > in 1 interface adapter. It all works per the manuals (both SD and > HP). Some people have had problems with that, too, but it seems to > do all that HP claimed it would do. Good luck. About SD. I just picked one up at Costco, and when I plug it in, there's no indication that it is found. Following the sad little instruction in the User's Manual shows no port 3. Is there some decoder ring trick for that, too? -- Bill ==== > Just a note that http://bugs.hpcalc.org/ > is set up to handle bug reports on the > HP49G+ and HP48GII platforms as well as > the HP49G platform. and entered over a dozen bugs! :-) -Joe- ==== Yes, the batteries were installed when delivered - but the batteries were ok. I did not need to use new ones. Today I tried out the USB interface under W2000 and this was also a pain. I reinstalled the software and the driver from the disc several times without success in connectiong to the HP. Actually after doing the installation with the newest software versions from the net I finally was able to upgrade the ROM (but a simple connect was still not possible). After upgrading to 1.22 I was able to connect to the HP from my laptop. I noticed some flickering of the LCD screen mostly on the lowest rows of pixels - which is not a very good sign. I like this machine, but I get the following feeling: * the product is not ready and the technology is getting much more complicated (USB) and this takes even more time to make it stable. * I was expecting much about the new IrDA, but no documentation, no documentation about it ... * I really would like to use the HP to collect measure results from external systems and I hope, that IrDA would be the best way, but after doing some more research this area (IrDA) is very, very unfinished. We will need many more updates to the software to get more out of this machine. Marten Tom Lake schrieb: > >>Probably with version 1.20 so your batteries are worn down before start. > > Get > >>a set of new batteries and upgrade it to version 1.22 would be my advice. > > > Were the batteries installed in yours when you received it? They weren't in > mine, they were next to the calc on the blister pack > > > ==== Wait till hp updates the 49g software. -Samuel http://www.calvin.edu/~sstear70/ > > I have my hp49g for about 4 years and i am quite pleased with it. > But I really hate the keyboard and the display. and a faster calc will > always be great. > > What do you say - those of you who own the new model - sholud I buy it > or not ? > Will I be pleased with the new keyboard ? > Or should I wait a while - But I don't think HP will come out with a > new model than the hp49g+ in the 4 next years. > > So - BUY IT OR NOT ? That's the question. > > > Idan ==== > what kind of level of complaining do we need to obtain in order for HP > to address the lcd flickering problem some of us are having with a > patch? ==== > > what kind of level of complaining do we need to obtain in order for HP > > to address the lcd flickering problem some of us are having with a > > patch? > > > A solution to the flickering is [Press ON plus up-arrow]. > > I tried it and during the short time I had to watch it, it appears to work. > > Matt WOW! It not only gets rid of the flickering - the flashing colon in the time display becomes much more regular also. ONward and UPward! Rick ==== That was my first thought as well...: how long will the up-arrow-button keep working after I installed this game... Martin > Excellent little game. Hp needs to refuse to replace the up arrow > button if this game has been installed. I gave mine a good workout. My > top score after 10 minutes was only 105. > > John ==== I have searched the manual and the right shift cat directory but did not fine what I would recongnize as the Q key like on the HP48sx. Where is it hidden? format question I set mode to display 3 dec places. when I input a number, example 10000 then 10000 is on the display if I mult by say 1.2 then divide by 1.2 the display is 10,000.000 How can I get 10,000.000 by just entering the number all the time? I like to see tha comma separators. On the hp48 I just set the mode to fix 3 and when I enter 100000 I get 10,000.000 David