HP-279 Subject: Re: Q: Serial to USB Adapter > The adapter I saw at Staples claimed to work with any handheld device > (USB end) and any serial device (DB9 end). The label showed a palm > device connected directly to a serial printer. Printers don't got > smarts. I'll bet this thing would work with my wheezy old laptop, > which, incidentally, is DOS only. So how did the experiment turn out? USB is a very smart BUS, while serial is an entirely dumb (and passive) physical-layer transport of meaningless bytes, as far as that layer (or the operating system) is concerned. Put another way, several devices can be independently working at once (multiplexing) on one USB connection, acting as printers, mice, keyboards, disk drives, or whatever -- which would be a neat trick to see happening on any serial port. The picture you saw was of a smart Operating System (Palm) talking to one dumb device (serial printer); this is easily accomplished, by having the smart adapter (which is fluent itself in USB protocol) talking directly to the smart Operating System at the USB end, while talking to just one dumb device at the serial end. To reverse these roles for all types of USB devices, putting a PC at the dumb end, would not be feasible, because smart USB devices generally expect to be talking to a very smart (and generally higher-speed) counterpart at the other end, which a serial port can not accommodate. Fully capable USB ports can, however, be added to PCs by plugging a USB adapter card into the PC system bus (or PCMCIA bus), and adding a driver program to the operating system to handle the new system bus device, which can then connect all sorts of smarter things, and can make them appear as whatever the OS can deal with. I've seen plenty of these cards for Windows (the least of which asked for Windows 98 SE as a minimal OS requirement, and had to supply its own USB driver, which Windows 2000+ already contains), but I've not come across any which aimed all the way back to accommodating MS-DOS, perhaps because MS-DOS was a bit dinosaurish by the time USB was invented. My USB flash drives (keychain drives), which are made of flash memory but act like disk drives, similarly demand either Windows 2000+ (with native, built-in driver) or Windows 98 [SE?] plus a driver downloadable from the vendor. BTW, thank you for your kind remarks, but I find the new HP calculators a bit uninspiring, and very seldom come back here to read about them any longer; a few other aspects of life have become much more appealing ways to spend the same time :) With best wishes from http://www.mum.edu and http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/aboutSchool/achievements.htm (home of Consciousness-based education, where the kids in one single small school walk away with more awards per capita -- and often per school -- in every field than most other schools in the USA, if not in the entire world). === Subject: Re: Q: Serial to USB Adapter posting-account=CdmerAwAAAA_5trBbttE1dOcxC9Z5qXZ >So how did the experiment turn out? I never did bother with the USB-serial adapter, because I got the SD card reader to work from DOS. The full story is in a fairly recent thread called SD Card Reader for DOS. Glad to hear you have some fun stuff. I'm inspired all to pieces by the 49G+ and wish I knew ARM code. There's my project for 2005. It's true that the newsgroup isn't what it once was. But then neither am I. :-) === Subject: Re: Q: Serial to USB Adapter posting-account=CdmerAwAAAA_5trBbttE1dOcxC9Z5qXZ Hmmm. My reply seems to have gone into Google's black hole. Don't worry if you get two... The experiment with the USB-serial adapter is no more. I got the SD card reader to work with DOS. It's described in a fairly recent thread called SD Card Reader for DOS. Glad to hear you're into fun stuff. I'm inspired all to pieces by the 49G+. Maybe I'll spend 2005 learning the ARM9. === Subject: Re: My New HP49G+ Wouw..... there must be a lot of thieves in the lands you're living in... :-) So far I haven't recieved one single HP calculator in another package than the old style that I know from my very first HP calc (a HP-15C back in 1987)... The last HP calc that I bought was the 49G+ (bought in Switzerland) and it was in the same package as the last 3 or 4 48GXs that I bought in Germany during the last 10 years...no problems with the packages!!! But I know what you're talking about as I received a Sony Memory-Stick in a package where I got the impression that the memory-stick was intended to stay in the package forever...!!!....:-) Martin >> However, it REALLY keeps out anyone trying to shoplift. >> Sadly, that's my guess as to the primary purpose. Great world we live >> in sometimes, eh? > I bought a TI84 two days ago... Same deal, impossible to open the plastic. > Even with cissors it took me over 3 minutes and at the end I tried to > split the plastic open with my hand, the result: > -The plastic opening very suddenly and the content of the package flying > everwhere > -A big cut inside on my hand's palm > -And another 10 minutes to find the AA batteries that flew in the office ! > No more news of the Qonos? Not even small??? > Everybody: forget the scissors!!! > I use a plastic-carpet cutting knife to slice > the top of the case off, workd every time > A razor blade could do the same. > It's dangerous living at the edge of technology > (-; > === Subject: Re: My New HP49G+ X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original > Wouw..... there must be a lot of thieves in the lands you're living in... X The package is not made in Finland so it depends more on the manufacturing options rather than where you buy it. The standard retail package for HPQ calcs in Finland is the boxed version, not blister (while you can have samples) BUT I have opened various product packages easily using the razor-blade technique -- === Subject: Re: New HP49G+ Two Weeks Later posting-account=ur2v0hIAAACCs9bY1zFW8ZFDYdA6R80z8wN0RLMEAzKqoeHhIsuf1Q > Annoyances: > HP's half-way implementation of the SD card-handling. > Can't make directories? Aw, c'mon.... Considering that the HP48 ports and cards (and the HP49 ports and flash memory) have always had a simple flat structure (i.e. store/recall a simple 'name' to/from a port), why would we expect a major file system revision in the 49G+ (and if you put yourself in the role of a product developer, how would you adapt the calculator command set to it)? In effect, the only place that looks like directories to the calculator has been where the user's variables are stored; to a port as a single file, but not as a set of folders)? Even in the 49G, VAR menu backups in ports can not be explored as folders by the Filer; however, there was once a program (PCT for the HP48) which *seemed* to be able to explore backups as if they were still organized that way -- the trick, however, was that any such object was first *copied* into a null-named (hidden) directory in HOME, which is where the included filer then explored it :) Best wishes from http://www.mum.edu and http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/aboutSchool/achievements.htm === Subject: Re: New HP49G+ Two Weeks Later > Even in the 49G, VAR menu backups in ports can not be > explored as folders by the Filer; however, there was once > a program (PCT for the HP48) which *seemed* to be able but the filer on the 49 can explore backup in ports! Otherwise the above explanations as to how to use directories in the SD is probably valid Jean-Yves === Subject: Re: New HP49G+ Two Weeks Later posting-account=CdmerAwAAAA_5trBbttE1dOcxC9Z5qXZ >(and if you put yourself in the role of a product developer, >how would you adapt the calculator command set to it)? Hire an ARM9 programmer who knows how to get out of the emulator and use some code that doesn't derive from the late 80s. I don't buy this it can't be done because of legacy code stuff. That's just an excuse for programmers to take extended lunches. :-) === Subject: Re: New HP49G+ Two Weeks Later X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original >(and if you put yourself in the role of a product developer, >>how would you adapt the calculator command set to it)? > Hire an ARM9 programmer who knows how to get out of the emulator and > use some code that doesn't derive from the late 80s. I don't buy this > it can't be done because of legacy code stuff. That's just an excuse > for programmers to take extended lunches. :-) OR limited budget/time frame from HPQ -- === Subject: Re: What's Up With Google Groups? Another thing that's up is that Gmail and Newsgroups now look pretty much the same -- it must be the new look with which Google wants to set the style :) There is also a radio button in the new Google reply form to send a copy by email to whomever you are replying to, but of course that option copies their posted email address verbatim (can't be edited), so good luck with myname.REMOVE.THIS@NOT.mycompany.com :) You can still display the original format of postings, however, in which IIRC you can see the original email address, whether real or semi-obfuscated by the author. and for Opera's comfortable integrated news/email client :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: What's Up With Google Groups? posting-account=ur2v0hIAAACCs9bY1zFW8ZFDYdA6R80z8wN0RLMEAzKqoeHhIsuf1Q You can still display the original format of postings, however, in which IIRC you can see the original email address... Nope; it gets slightly truncated, just as in the new standard display, e.g.: So obfuscate cleverly, if you still want humans to be able to figure out your real email address. --- Also, the new radio button is to send your reply *either* to the newsgroup OR to the original author (not both posting and a copy to the author); however, sending to an obfuscated address is useless. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: What's Up With Google Groups? I just replied to another Markwick post from Google's new Beta, with no problem. But I have seen one other problem developing, which is that if you copy and post a link to the new version of any individual posted message, I see no way to get from there to the entire thread, for which there always used to be a provided link (View thread or something like that :) It seemed very useful that the original system indexed all posts by their original unique Message-ID, and that by simply changing selm= to threadm= in an old individual message link, you could display the corresponding entire thread. At the moment, with the new system, if you open the show options of an individual message, there is no view thread link, but only another Individual message link, which links to exactly the same URL you are currently at! (I have already submitted a suggestion that this redundant link might well be replaced with a view thread link, if possible, but the response from Google seemed rather cool and unlikely to happen). I'm also wondering how long old cross-links to prior postings will still work -- it's remarkable that old links with the original Google system (Google bought Dejanews), and I can only hope that they might also manage to keep links to prior Google postings working with their own new system. [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: What's Up With Google Groups? X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original They suck big time... and no way to use the old format. > Lately if I try to reply or post from the old version, I just get a > not available message - I don't even get as far as their editor. > If I use the beta version, it gives me the editor, and when I click on > Post, it replies that it's having a hell of a time of it and it's got > a headache and if I just click on Refresh all will be well. > So I click on Refresh and it says that everything is just so colossally > buggered up I'm going to have to click on Retry. > So I click on Retry, and miraculously, it works. It's sort of like > phoning a huge corporation with a question and you have to tell your > story to 15 people before you connect with someone who actually knows. > Here I go again - I'm about to post *this*. :-) > Down the Winding Path Markwick === Subject: Re: 49g+ printed user's guide? to much to read from the screen : How much were they asking? I forget the exact amount as it has been over a year. I seem to rember them wanting ~$80. : > I thought of printing it my self but that would have left we with the : problem : > of figuring out how to bind it. I tried a couple of print shops in the : Chicag area : > and they all wanted a stupid amount of money. -- Keep working millions on welfare depend on you ------------------- fwp@deepthought.com === Subject: Re: 49g+ printed user's guide? to much to read from the screen posting-account=rQRNXw0AAABvdnK38E5FAQAwmqii-2hI well, I'm in Peru right now, and here the cost to print the whole manual is around $40... last winter I was in Denver, and the cost there was $90 aprox... (both double sided) === Subject: Re: 49g+ printed user's guide? to much to read from the screen X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original > well, I'm in Peru right now, and here the cost to print the whole > manual is around $40... last winter I was in Denver, and the cost there > was $90 aprox... (both double sided) How much if you take a larger print at Peru, say 20, and let us to buy it (including international posting)? -- === Subject: Re: 49g+ printed user's guide? to much to read from the screen posting-account=Jsvtyw0AAABXoieZQ2ZIOWW7qj9L1ZZ1 Kinko's wanted $140 for one copy double sided. === Subject: Re: 49g+ printed user's guide? to much to read from the screen posting-account=PUKtNgwAAACqPi8kDc99J0TU9omMMXD5 > Kinko's wanted $140 for one copy double sided. damn! this is more than the 49g+ itself.... === Subject: Re: on key failure > In the hopes that this is a software problem, > I would like to reload rom, > but I can't get into terminal mode because > on + + + enter doesn't register. The good news is that you don't need to reload ROM; the bad news is that it's a common hardware failure. > HP product support advised me > to throw the calculator away and buy another one. When those folks are replaced by a web form, the joke will be on them :) You could always just buy the (free) HP48/49G emulator from www.hpcalc.org and never again worry about keyboard failure :) Well, perhaps you'd still need to worry, for I am typing this on a keyboard bearing the HP logo -- a two-year old, one owner, gently used PC keyboard on which the labeling of many keytops has worn completely off, and I will be clicking send with a gently used HP-logo mouse which came with the same computer, under which the glide strips have become unglued and have fallen off, leaving gooey stuff behind. All this gear (and even the HP computer itself) was manufactured for HP by other OEMs of course, but so are the new calculators, and all are now designed without much concern for lasting, because you can just throw it away and buy another one, any time, I guess (besides which it's soon obsolete anyway). This phase of product evolution will probably have peaked when most marriages break up just after the honeymoon :) [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: Emulators (x86) X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original >> I suppose that, including an ANSI compliant c/c++ compiler (gcc) and a > Linux >> kernel, it would be possible to get any s/w that runs on Debian to >> compile >> on your Qonos too. So long as you have access to the source code. Of >> course, it cannot be binary compatible unless it also comes with an x86 >> emulator as well as the 68k and Saturn emulators. > To emulate basic x86 is not so much of the work > -it may be at the same level like any other CISC processor, BUT > if you plan to emulate x86 with advanced instructionset and registerset, > foremost: > -floating point instructions, > -Pentium specific instructions, > -plus relatively new MMX instructions and registerset, > -not to mention 3DNOW, SSE, SSE2 etc... > it is sooo close to impossible, that you may say it loud: > IT IS IMPOSSIBLE :-) X That's why the Qonos should be immediately ported to Transmeta CPU :-D === Subject: Re: Advice on Programs for SD Card X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original > ROM, though, seems to be the opposite of what I want - I want to write > a small loader that won't take up too much memory, and have it fetch > the text entries from directories on the SD card. > As for the languages, that sounds good, if I could find users willing > to do all the work (total text is about 20,000 words by now). > I wonder how you say TTRM in Swahili? :-) I could translate your HELP text files into Finnish. someone speaking Swahili will do his/her best... Just release the text as free software -- === Subject: Re: Advice on Programs for SD Card posting-account=CdmerAwAAAA_5trBbttE1dOcxC9Z5qXZ > I could translate your HELP text files into Finnish There's an idea. That reminds me: if you run BZ+49, Mika's name is spelled wrong. :-) === Subject: Re: Advice on Programs for SD Card X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original >> I could translate your HELP text files into Finnish > There's an idea. When do you expect to have the help files organized for SD? Are they in: UTILSHELP maybe you name them after the commands themselves? Then the special characters don't bother that much the possible > is hard...maybe ) will replace it? > That reminds me: if you run BZ+49, Mika's name is spelled wrong. :-) > Did not even think about it... Mika Heiskanen is the correct spelling -- === Subject: Re: Any updates from Hydrix on Qonos? > I find this strange... > -speculating about QONOS, at the same time no reply from JYA > even though addressed one post directly to JYA !? I never answer a thread where Helen is involved. I'm just a kid and wouldn't dare to contradict such a well-known worldwide authority in [insert_what_you_want_here, she knows it all].. Jean-Yves === Subject: Re: Any updates from Hydrix on Qonos? (like the majority of people i like when somone explains anything to me -it makes me feel that somone realy cares what i have to say or how do i feel -don't we all ?) NOW HELEN... come see me in my office NOW !!! :-) Didn't your ma-ma tel ya not to beat the other kids, especialy not the boys ? NO i'm not shovinist pig... -boys are simply stronger than you :-) (i'm trying to turn this out on the funny side as you may see) now realy how come you can upset JYA so much ? -maybe JYA likes you so mych that he's internal clock goes crazy or something :-) (there i go with funny staff again) now realy -dead serious, Hellen, you seem to understand human bahavior, calculator makret, a little of it all (or a lot if you like it better) -just the way like most of us here are trying to do. How come your replies can be so cynical sometimes, so full of some form of hate or something I think you're not threatened by neither of us here, i would say just the opposite: It is obviews that you're respected, but don't get too far in this direction becuse respect can grow to fear (like JYA indicated) and that would be bad :-( -coz noone would have the guts to talk with you -i'm not sure if any of us would wan't that. Remember when i asked (way back) if are only boyz here ? The crowd answered: we have a few girls here... So forgive me for saying following: If you're one of the rare girls here -try not to be ass sometimes ? (just a thought :-) manjo P.S. keep the good spirits coz it would be a shame to see this great group become a common fireplace... === Subject: Re: Any updates from Hydrix on Qonos? On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:01:33 +0100, manjo >Hellen, you seem to understand human bahavior, calculator makret, What is makret?... A.L> === Subject: Re: Any updates from Hydrix on Qonos? Thanx A.L. makret = typo for market :-) manjo > What is makret?... > A.L> === Subject: Re: Any updates from Hydrix on Qonos? X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original >I find this strange... > -speculating about QONOS, at the same time no reply from JYA > even though addressed one post directly to JYA !? > -don't you think that's odd ? > manjo JYA has gone on record saying that gcc would be bundled with the Qonos. Having seen screenshots, it is clear that the device comes with a X-type GUI. As such, it is clear that many X-windows based applications can be recompiled from the soutce code to work on the Qonos. *That* much is not Refering to x86 emulation... I was not endorsing the possibility that Qonos *would* have an x86 emulator. It is sometimes difficult to get your intentions clear in a text-based environment; sorry for that. I actually more inclined to believe that x86 emulation will not happen on a Qonos. It has certainly not been hinted at in any official form. But, it is certainly *not* impossible to do it: Look at the several virtual Windows software avaiable for MacOS. Hope this clears things up,. Luke === Subject: Re: Any updates from Hydrix on Qonos? > JYA has gone on record saying that gcc would be bundled with the Qonos. > Having seen screenshots, it is clear that the device comes with a X-type > GUI. As such, it is clear that many X-windows based applications can be > recompiled from the soutce code to work on the Qonos. *That* much is not I never mentioned that QonoS would come with GCC, there's just not enough flash space for that. gcc is indeed available for development and cross-compiling. Also you're right, it is linux (2.4.18 based) and X based (tinyX) > Refering to x86 emulation... I was not endorsing the possibility that Qonos > *would* have an x86 emulator. It is sometimes difficult to get your > intentions clear in a text-based environment; sorry for that. I actually > more inclined to believe that x86 emulation will not happen on a Qonos. It > has certainly not been hinted at in any official form. But, it is certainly > *not* impossible to do it: Look at the several virtual Windows software > avaiable for MacOS. x86 emulation is not something we've planned or consider. Jean-Yves === Subject: Re: Any updates from Hydrix on Qonos? > I never mentioned that QonoS would come with GCC, there's just not > enough flash space for that. How much work would it be to port tcc to the QonoS processor? That baby compiles to less than 80K - 56K with upx. And it's a nearly 100% C99 compiler... -- .-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-.|Experts in Linux/Unix: www.WildOpenSource.com | |__ / | | |-< | |-< > / |Making the bazaar more commonplace `----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' |Check out my new novel: Cloud Realm at: home:www.smith-house.org:8000|http://www.smith-house.org:8000/books/list.htm l === Subject: Re: Any updates from Hydrix on Qonos? Hello Luke, I was not criticising speculations here i was merely trying to see if we get some response from JYA regarding QONOS -plans and progress. I belive posted his question is same hopes. is main independent (i hope) protagonist of QONOS project :-) On the other hand i hope to support 49G+ the same way. Nevertheless I am very much interested in QONOS project -not direcly as a potentional buyer, let's say i'm waiting to see what will turn out of great initiative. Sory if my post offended you in any way, however i hope we agree that emulating x86 would not be easy, and it's not necesary at all. (so why bother) When saying impossible i ment in limited memory environment limited battery life, limited screen size, ... of the calculator/PDA environment ( i understand and agree that very few things if aynthing at all is impossible regarding this subject) Therefore i take back my statement and change it to this: I belive, even if somone does write emulator which will emulate modern x86 based processor, for PDA or pocket calculator environment, emulating all the hardware the most programs rely on, it will not be running at acceptable speed. Regresion: ----------- I ask: Can we do it (emulate x86) on pocket calculator ? You say: Yes we can -just look at the MAC now my question is this: Is MAC comparable environment with pocket calculator or PDA ? manjo >I find this strange... > -speculating about QONOS, at the same time no reply from JYA > even though addressed one post directly to JYA !? > -don't you think that's odd ? > manjo > JYA has gone on record saying that gcc would be bundled with the Qonos. > Having seen screenshots, it is clear that the device comes with a X-type > GUI. As such, it is clear that many X-windows based applications can be > recompiled from the soutce code to work on the Qonos. *That* much is not > Refering to x86 emulation... I was not endorsing the possibility that Qonos > *would* have an x86 emulator. It is sometimes difficult to get your > intentions clear in a text-based environment; sorry for that. I actually > more inclined to believe that x86 emulation will not happen on a Qonos. It > has certainly not been hinted at in any official form. But, it is certainly > *not* impossible to do it: Look at the several virtual Windows software > avaiable for MacOS. > Hope this clears things up,. > Luke === Subject: Re: TTRM with functions created with Debug4x > Real, Complex AND Symbolics, including DERVX, INTVX > when mathematically meaningful? Since I don't know how to enhance the built-in DERVX and INTVX, support for derivatives and integration of special functions will only be available if I ever complete a full replacement for DERVX and INTVX. === Subject: Re: Logistic Regression 49g+ posting-account=sIPd5A0AAABeRqsGZgLDqC9x0uMC449H -Matt M. === Subject: Re: emu48 1.35 on XP SP2 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response >> 2. The gentle reminder RTFM is certainly not unreasonable if the answer >> was already there.<< > RTFM is NEVER a gentle reminder. It is a crude, foul thing to say and it > assumes that the person that you are talking too is too stupid to read the > manual. The F in RTFM is the abbreviation of the foulest word in the > English Language. It offended me and I said so. I think that the problem here is not what was said, but that it was not interpreted in the way it was intended to be (note, this is as much the fault of the person writing the message than the receiver). I (and lots of others) certainly do not feel any agressed, or shocked when receiving a RTFM (and concider it as a gentle reminder to read the manual, or an indication that the answer is in plain sight in the the said manual). When I say RTFM to someone, I most definitely not intent to say more than: I spent a lot of time and effort in writing that darn manual, and the question that you are asking is proeminently featured in it, please read the manual and do not ask me to repeat myself again and again. and not anything crude. But, like Christopher, I am not a native engish speaker, and I learnd the meaning of RTFM before I actually learned what the acronym was for :-) as for ing being the faoulest word in the english language, beleive that you could easely find word way faoulest without much effort, even I know a couple of them (and I definitely not am a faoul mouth, when I messup something, I swear: upsadaisy!) Cyrille, trying to understand his fellow humans === Subject: Re: emu48 1.35 on XP SP2 posting-account=ur2v0hIAAACCs9bY1zFW8ZFDYdA6R80z8wN0RLMEAzKqoeHhIsuf1Q It seems to me that if someone has been using the program successfully for some while, and then it crashes after the infamous SP2 is installed, it's reasonable and logical to inquire and pursue that possibility, with the presumption and tone within that last response seeming a bit abrupt. Christoph has done a wonderful job of maintaining and improving the emulator, and I wonder whether any future version might just include a feature to give a helpful hint before exiting if the ROM image has become corrupted? But modern software is often made that way; to notify the user of his error, it simply crashes, or says something inappropriate and unfriendly, which reminds me of one of Garrison Keillor's advertisements for one of his (imaginary) sponsors' products, Powder Milk Biscuits, which Garrison recommends as coming to you in the familiar blue box, with the stain on the top which lets you know they're fresh. :) Visit Garrison's home: http://prairiehome.publicradio.org A Prairie Home Companion (what, the movie?) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0420087 [r->] [OFF] === Subject: Re: emu48 1.35 on XP SP2 Hello John, John H Meyers schrieb im Newsbeitrag > [..] > and I wonder whether any future version might just > include a feature to give a helpful hint before > exiting if the ROM image has become corrupted? my current beta version of Emu48 contain some code for detecting packed ROM images and quit with an error message in this case. But this is a very short test checking if on the first 4 bytes of the ROM image all upper 4 bits are 0. This is enough to detect a packed ROM image but wouldn't help in this special case of a corrupt image. For these cases the convert utility was made for checking also the internal checksums. Christoph === Subject: Simple unit conversion program for HP 28S I'm looking for a simple program that will speed up the process of converting inches to millimeters and vice versa on a HP 28S. Any help would be appreciated. === Subject: Re: HP calculators to be sold on e-bay It was a makeover from a company called W&W Software and had a new HP-41CY TURBO label on the case. The whole thing looked pretty professional; I'd like to have one myself. -- Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock === Subject: HP 35 Early Red Dot model ? I am looking for a nice first version of the HP 35 Red dot. (next to the on/off swithc there is small hole) Maybe you are envious looking for a new HP49 or a simular machine with all whistles and bells and we can make a swap ? Please let me know Ronald