HP-28 HP-28 Libraries can't be STOred in port 3. Am I missing something? I have one 8MB SD card that came with the calc. Should I get a bigger one? They could be stored there, but the calc searches for active libraries only from the other ports. Imagine 2GB SD and 2 hour search every time you turn on your calculator? (2MB on a HP 48GX takes some time) ==== I have to solve an equation with symbolic constant (even if I do ASSUME for that constant); using SOLVE the calc returns me (correctly) Not reducible to a rational expression. The point is that the calc can give me the solutions if I substitute values in the symbolic constants. So have I to think that the symbolic solver use something numeric when possible (no symbolic constants)? And it's the same numeric solver as ROOT or something faster/slower? How it can give multiply numeric answers (changing the numeric guess value by analyzing the type of function, I guess)? I ask you because I have to use the solvers in a program and I want to know if I'd better rely on the NUMSOLVE or on another symbolic SYSRpl command Kickaha This is going to sound kind of stupid, but I'm having a hard time solving the following system of differential equations: d1X(t)=-a(X(t)-Y(t)) d1Y(t)=b(X(t)-Y(t)) I was wondering if there was a good way to get the HP49G to solve it (or if there was any symbolic math program that would handle systems of differential equations). ==== programs like Mathematica or Maple can do that. E.g. using Mathematica V4, you get the following solution: In[1]:= DSolve[{f'[x]==-a*(f[x]-g[x]),g'[x]==b*(f[x]-g[x])},{f[x],g[x]},x] (-a - b) x (-a - b) x b C[1] + a E C[1] + a C[2] - a E C[2] Out[1]= {{f[x] -> ---------------------------------------------------------, a + b (-a - b) x (-a - b) x -(b C[1]) + b E C[1] - a C[2] - b E C[2] g[x] -> -(------------------------------------------------------------)} a + b HP40/49 CAS has DESOLVE and LDEC for solving diff. equations, but I doubt it works for systems too. ==== One way to do this for constant coefficient systems is via a matrix exponential. ==== This File Transfer run via xmodem, using filer explorer, send multiple archives, and more!!!! Program Name : EasyIO Languaje : english Autor : Cristian Riffo Download: http://porquero.cjb.com Hp49 Section... :) ==== ==== The ROM is 1.22, but I wasn't aware there was any others for the G+?? The archive command I'm using is exactly the same as for the HP49G (where it works fine); ARCHIVE I cannot see there should be a problem here. Also, although I could make a Con4x backup from the G, and restore to the G+, I cannot make a Con4x backup from the G+. When I try it looses the connection. ==== ==== > http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49/index.htm Look in section science for the unitman.zip. I have just tested with rom 1.19-6 1. I prefered to generate a new Udir, a unit directory, named it cons for consumption. 2. AddU, adds a new unit Entered a list of strings { galUK / mi cl / km} and ENTER thats all. The new units need no definition. So, the tricky thing is l/100_km is not allowed, and the representative is cl/km (centi-liter :-) Unitman, get it :-) ==== unitman > http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49/index.htm > Look in section science for the unitman.zip. > I have just tested with rom 1.19-6 > > It treats user-defined units as if > > they were built in, i.e., units are converted by just pressing > > Rightshift as on the HP48. That this phantastic unit-conversion isn't > > described in the HP49 documents, was the greatest mistake ACO ever made. > > This convenient unit treatment was a main reason for the success of the > > HP48. > > My first HP was a 48, I bought it just after a friend showed me his was > able > to answer what was Ln(-1) and showed me the units functionality. If it > wasn't for that, I would never have switched to HP (I loved my casio then, > and still...) > By the way I don't recall ever using Ln(-1). > > ==== > The conversion between miles/gallon and liters/100km is not a unit > conversion. > Although they express essentially the same thing, they are different > physical quantities. These two quantities, mileage, and fuel > consumption, are related by the trivial relationship y=1/x, just as, for > example, wave number and wavelength, frequency and time (period), or > resistance and conductance. me that the first is even more appealing, only that non-british europeans think in litres and not in galons. Thus, a most reasonable unit would perhaps be km/l. That mesures the distance you get along with one litre of fuel. Advantage: easy recalculated in money. For instance, if 1_l fuel cost 1.15 $ (Germany) and the car is driving 12_km/l than this means paying 1.15 $ for 12 km. Thus, I propose first to make with Unitman a unit category Drive, say. Then hit AddU, choose Drive and put {km/l mi/galUK cl/km} in the UnitName field. Press OK, no definition is necessary since the OS knows all occurring units and nothing will be written in HOME! The first two units in the new category Drive are compatibel. One gets 11_km/l on the stack by just pressing option km/l on 11. And conversion into mi/galUK is made by simply pressing rightshift on this menu option. For the last one apply 1/x before converting. - Wolfgang ==== http://www.hp-sources.com/internetprime/english.html 's link for the instructions on how to make the HP48 to modem cable[to access Internet on the HP] gives Error 404. Does anyone here has the instructions to make this cable? I *want* to access internet via my HP48. -- Famous last words in HP48: #9d SYSEVAL ==== Connecting a modem to your HP48 or HP49G calculator by E.Carta [Show the Text-Only version] Warning: This is *NOT* a Hewlett-Packard official page. I assume no responsibility about any damage you could get by following these schematics. 0. Index. 0. Index. 1. Introduction. 2. Pinout assignment (read carefully!) 2.1. HP48-4pin Connector 2.2. HP49G-10pin Connector 2.3. DB9 Connector (RS-232) 2.4. DB25 Connector (RS-232) 3. Building the cable 3.1. Project #1: HP48 - Building the whole cable 3.2. Project #2: HP49 - Building the whole cable 3.3. Project #3: HP48 and HP49 - Building the adapter for cable F1897-66000 3.4. Project #4: HP48 - Building the adapter for cable F1015-80002 3.5. Project #5: HP49 - Building the adapter for cable F1015-80002 4. Testing the cable 4.1. Testing the HP48-Modem Cable 4.2. Testing the HP49-Modem Cable 5. Getting the software 6. Connecting your HP to a remore PC or a remote calculator 6.1 Upload/Download files using Kermit protocol 6.1.1. Download a file from a remote PC 6.1.2. Upload a file to a remote PC 6.2. Connect two HP calculators through the telephone line 7. Solve connection problems 7.1. Connection doesn't work. Am I using a wrong modem? 7.2. I connect my HP to the modem, then type ATI0, but nothing happens 7.3. I get modem prompt, but it doesn't dial the number 7.4. I can connect a remote server, but then I get no answer on terminal 7.5. Files appear truncated after upload/download operations 7.6. Other problems -OR- problem persists 8. Related documents 9. Obtaining the last version of this document 10. Contacting the author of this document 1. Introduction. These pages explain how connecting any standard-modem to your HP48 or HP49 calculator. Following instructions below, you'll be able to join BBS services, to chat and to upload or download files, both on remote PCs and even on a remote HP calculator ! You'll learn to build the connection cable and to get all the FREE required software . You need the computer only the first time, to transfer terminal programs to your HP calculator. Then, you won't need other devices than your HP, the cable and the modem. Notice: you won't be able to send/receive fax, neither to access Internet directly. Please read carefully the pinout assignment section. Be sure to check your cable before using it! 2. Pinout assignment. I assume the calculator as a DTE, so RX means data TO calculator, while TX means data FROM calculator. The MODEM is obviously a DCE, so TX and RX are always referred to the DTE (the calculator): TX means Transmitted from calculator. Pinout numbering is different (mirrored) in Male and Female connectors. So be careful!!! Please read carefully the schematics below; for further information, refer to: http://www.freeweb.org/computer/enrico/hpcables.htm 2.1. HP48-4pin Connector Connectors are seen in front view, with the HP logo on their top. HP48 back view. I assume pin #4 is THE NEAREST TO THE IR-LEDS: LCD SCREEN +--------------------'--------+ | +-----------------------+ | | | .... OO | | | 1234 (IR-LEDS)| / _|_______________________|_/ PINOUT NUMBERING: HP48-4pin-M HP48-4pin-F [ 1 2 3 4 ] [ 4 3 2 1 ] PINOUT DESCRIPTION: 1. SHIELD 2. TX (TRANSMITTED = CALCULATOR OUTPUT) 3. RX (RECEIVED = CALCULATOR INPUT) 4. GND 2.2. HP49G-10pin Connector Connectors are seen in front view, with the HP logo on their top. The male connector in the upper-side of the calculator is seen in front view (LCD screen on the top) in this way: LCD SCREEN /|-----------------------------| | +---^-----------------+ | |____| ..... 2 +----------------------------->3 RX 3<-+--------------3 +<--------------------------------2 GND 4-----+-----------7 +------------------------------5 4,6,20 4,6,7 <--SHUNTED Testing the cableBack to index 3.2. Project #2: HP49 - Building the whole cable. What you need: a DB25-M connector (or DB9-M if your modem uses it), some wires and a 10pin-F connector to plug into the HP49G port. Note that in the calculator you only need to connect three pins (since SHIELD is not mandatory), all in the bottom-row (pin 7 to 9); so you can get it by recycling the 3 (or 4)-pin female connector used into old computer mainboards (for example: HDD-led, turbo-led, keylock-switch, etc.), or get it from some broken hardware (for example, an old mouse). Ask to a computer shop or, better, to a surplus-dealer in order to find a computer connector that fits the pins (6),7,8 and 9 in your HP49G. Building the cable: Solder the 3-pin-F connector to the DB25-M (or to the DB9-M if your modem uses it). Schematic: HP49-10-F DB25-M DB9-M SHIELD (6)-+-------------(SHIELD) +--------------------------------(SHIELD) TX 7-----+---------->2 +----------------------------->3 RX 8<-+--------------3 +<--------------------------------2 GND 9-----+-----------7 +------------------------------5 4,6,20 4,6,7 <--SHUNTED Testing the cableBack to index 3.3. Project #3: HP48 and HP49 - Building the adapter for cable F1897-66000. What you need: some wires, a DB9-M and DB25-M connector (or two DB9-M connectors if your modem uses it) and the HP serial PC-Link cable. In this section I'm referring to newer models of cable (like F1897, F1207B or 8120-6736), that can be used on both HP48 and HP49G. For older cables (like F1015-80002) see section 3.4 or 3.5. The HP38 has the same pinout as the HP49G, so you can use also a HP38 PC-Link. NEVER (**NEVER**) plug this cable directly into your DB9 modem. You could damage it! To use this cable you need to build a DB9-DB25 adapter (or DB9-DB9 if your modem uses a DB9 connector). Using the adapter. Build the adapter (see schematic below); Plug the DB9-F termination of your serial cable to the DB9-M connector of the adapter and connect all in this way: +-----------------+ +-----------+ +---------+ | HP CALCULATOR |<-----------------><--| ADAPTER |-->| MODEM | +-----------------+ PC-LINK +-----------+ +---------+ Schematic of the adapter: (TO PC-LINK) (TO MODEM) (TO MODEM) DB9-M DB25-M DB9-M (SHIELD)-+-------------(SHIELD) +--------------------------------(SHIELD) TX 2-----+---------->2 +----------------------------->3 RX 3<-+--------------3 +<--------------------------------2 GND 5-----+-----------7 +------------------------------5 4,6,20 4,6,7 <--SHUNTED Testing the cableBack to index 3.4. Project #4: HP48 - Building the adapter for cable F1015-80002. What you need: some wires, a DB9-M and DB25-M connector (or two DB9-M connectors if your modem uses it) and the HP serial PC-Link cable. In this section I'm referring to older models of cable (like F1015-80002). For newer cables (like F1897, F1207B or 8120-6736) see section 3.3. For using this cable with the HP49G see next section. NEVER (**NEVER**) plug this cable directly into your DB9 modem. You could damage it! To use this cable you need to build a DB9-DB25 adapter (or DB9-DB9 if your modem uses a DB9 connector). Using the adapter. Build the adapter (see schematic below); Plug the DB9-F termination of your serial cable to the DB9-M connector of the adapter and connect all in this way: +----------+ +-----------+ +---------+ | HP48 |<-----------------><--| ADAPTER |-->| MODEM | +----------+ PC-LINK +-----------+ +---------+ Schematic of the adapter: (TO PC-LINK) (TO MODEM) (TO MODEM) DB9-M DB25-M DB9-M (SHIELD)-+-------------(SHIELD) +--------------------------------(SHIELD) TX 2-----+---------->2 +----------------------------->3 RX 3<-+--------------3 +<--------------------------------2 GND 5-----+-----------7 +------------------------------5 4,6,20 4,6,7 <--SHUNTED Testing the cableBack to index 3.5. Project #5: HP49 - Building the adapter for cable F1015-80002. What you need: some wires, a DB9-M and DB25-M connector (or two DB9-M connectors if your modem uses it) and the HP serial PC-Link cable. In this section I'm referring to older models of cable (like F1015-80002). For newer cables (like F1897, F1207B or 8120-6736) see section 3.3. For using this cable with the HP48 see previous section. NEVER (**NEVER**) plug this cable directly into your DB9 modem. You could damage it! WARNING: This cable cannot be used as HP49G PC-Link. But can be used as HP49G-Modem cable by building the adapter below. To use this cable you need to build a DB9-DB25 adapter (or DB9-DB9 if your modem uses a DB9 connector). Using the adapter. Build the adapter (see schematic below); Plug the DB9-F termination of your serial cable to the DB9-M connector of the adapter and connect all in this way: +-----------+ +-----------+ +---------+ | HP49G |<-----------------><--| ADAPTER |-->| MODEM | +-----------+ PC-LINK +-----------+ +---------+ Schematic of the adapter: (TO PC-LINK) (TO MODEM) (TO MODEM) DB9-M DB25-M DB9-M (SHIELD)-+-------------(SHIELD) +--------------------------------(SHIELD) TX 8-----+---------->2 +----------------------------->3 RX 7<-+--------------3 +<--------------------------------2 GND 9-----+-----------7 +------------------------------5 4,6,20 4,6,7 <--SHUNTED Testing the cableBack to index 4. Testing the cable. Before using your new cable for the first time, check it! 4.1. Testing the HP48-Modem Cable. No matter what method you've followed. The cable you use MUST have: A HP48 4-pin connector on one side, and a DM25-M or DB9-M on the other; A schematic like this (check with the ohmmeter): HP48-4-F DB25-M DB9-M SHIELD (1)-+-------------(SHIELD) +--------------------------------(SHIELD) TX 2-----+---------->2 +----------------------------->3 RX 3<-+--------------3 +<--------------------------------2 GND 4-----+-----------7 +------------------------------5 4,6,20 4,6,7 <--SHUNTED If you use pin #1 (on the HP48-4pin side), connect it to the shield. Otherwise, don't connect it (SHIELD is not mandatory). Pin 4, 6, 20 on DB25 (or 4, 6, 7 if your modem uses a DB9 connector) are connected togheter because HP calculators don't support DTR and RTS signals. All the pins should be insulated each from the others and each from the SHIELD (except pin #1). Check with the ohmmeter!. DON'T USE cables with a different schematic. To fix the problem, read carefully the pinout assignment of the connectors and the schematic of the cable you are building. 4.2. Testing the HP49-Modem Cable. No matter what method you've followed. The cable you use MUST have: A HP49 10-pin connector on one side, and a DM25-M or DB9-M on the other; A schematic like this (check with the ohmmeter): HP49-10-F DB25-M DB9-M SHIELD (6)-+-------------(SHIELD) +--------------------------------(SHIELD) TX 7-----+---------->2 +----------------------------->3 RX 8<-+--------------3 +<--------------------------------2 GND 9-----+-----------7 +------------------------------5 4,6,20 4,6,7 <--SHUNTED If you use pin #6 (on the HP49-10pin side), connect it to the shield. Otherwise, don't connect it (SHIELD is not mandatory). Pin 4, 6, 20 on DB25 (or 4, 6, 7 if your modem uses a DB9 connector) are connected togheter because HP calculators don't support DTR and RTS signals. All the pins should be insulated each from the others and each from the SHIELD (except pin #6). Check with the ohmmeter!. DON'T USE cables with a different schematic. To fix the problem, read carefully the pinout assignment of the connectors and the schematic of the cable you are building. 5. Getting the software. You need a terminal program to have your HP calculator to talk with the modem. Most of these programs are FREE and can be found in hpcalc archive: HP48 Terminal Emulation Programs: http://www.hpcalc.org/utils/comms/terminal/ HP49 Terminal Emulation Programs: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/utils/comms/ Running these programs, you'll be able to talk directly with your modem. The Note that you can get the echo of your chars only if you connect to the modem! 6. Connecting your HP to a remore PC or a remote calculator. Run your favorite terminal program on the HP calculator. To dial a number, simply type ATDTnnn (dial-tone) or ATDPnnn (dial-pulse), when nnn is the number you have to talk with. Example: to dial-tone number 555-1234, type ATDT 5551234 when running terminal. The welcome-message or login-request will soon appear on the screen. 6.1 Upload/Download files using Kermit protocol. This is the most interesting feature. You can download/upload any file from/to remote services, using Kermit protocol. Be sure you set binary transfer both in local (HP calculator) and in remote (PC, or another calculator). The trick is to start the process on remote device, using terminal program. Then, quit the terminal program and start the Kermit of your HP to complete the operation. Keeping the modem offhook during all the time. Then you can re-start the terminal program and close the remote connection. Kermit official web page is http://www.columbia.edu/Kermit. 6.1.1. Download a file from a remote PC. Assuming you have logged-in, are running the terminal program, and the remote Kermit-server is called KERMIT. Prompt> KERMIT ;Start remote Kermit server Kermit> BIN ;Set to binary. Also used: SET FILE TYPE BINARY Kermit> SEND FILENAME ;Ask to send a remote file called FILENAME Kermit is ready to send FILENAME. Please run your local Kermit client... Now you have to quit from your terminal program. Kermit-client is called KERMIT. Prompt> KERMIT ;Start remote Kermit client Kermit> BIN ;Set to binary. Also used: SET FILE TYPE BINARY Kermit> RECEIVE ;Ask the remote client to wait for a file Kermit is ready to receive a file. Please run your local Kermit server... Now you have to quit from your terminal program. Connect each HP calculator to a standard modem. Then, run a terminal program on both calculators. the same way. Client HP calculator will receive the 'OBJECT' from the server calculator. To hang-up, just type: ATH0 from the terminal program on both calculators. 7. Solve connection problems. After having tested the cable, connect it to the modem, and send some command. For example, ATI0 or ATI3 (get modem status), followed by ENTER. You should read the modem prompt (OK) on the terminal screen. Otherwise, you have a connection problem. 7.1. Connection doesn't work. Am I using a wrong modem?. You can use any HAYES-standard modem. I used successfully an old Hayes 2400 anyway, 9600bps is the highest speed for the HP serial interface. 7.2. I connect my HP to the modem, then type ATI0, but nothing happens. Check the cable, and verify that pins 4,6,20 on DB25 (or 4,6,7 if your modem uses a DB9) are shunted together. If you are sure the problem is not in the cable, is probably in the modem. Please refer to your modem manual, and check the proper init string. If you would find a init-string that allows a correct connection between the modem and hp48-terminal, you could save it in the modem NVRAM (see modem manual, the command is usually &W). 7.3. I get modem prompt, but it doesn't dial the number. You could force the modem to transmit data with a lower speed. Send the command: AT&Nx where x is the speed: 1 for 300bps 2 for 1200bps 3 for 2400bps 4 for 4800bps 6 for 9600bps 7.6. Other problems -OR- problem persists. Contact me and explain your problems. 8. Related documents. Description of some HP38, HP48 and HP49G cables & adapters http://www.freeweb.org/computer/enrico/hpcables.htm Building the HP49G serial PC-Link cable: http://www.freeweb.org/computer/enrico/cable49g.htm HP48 Documentation files: http://www.hpcalc.org/docs/misc/ HP49 Documentation files: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49/docs/misc/ The HP48 and HP49G FAQ: http://www.hpcalc.org Kermit official page: http://www.columbia.edu/Kermit C.Curtis, D.L.Majhor, Modem Connections Bible, Sams, ISBN 0-672-22446-1 9. Obtaining the last version of this document. Primary address for this page is: http://www.freeweb.org/computer/enrico/hp2modem.htm Secondary address: http://studenti.ing.unipi.it/~s172776/hp2modem.htm PK-zipped version: (16Kb) http://www.freeweb.org/computer/enrico/hp2modem.zip Text-Only version: http://www.freeweb.org/computer/enrico/hp2modem.txt 10. Contacting the author of this document. Feel free to contact me for any problem or question. enrico@ieee.org s172776@studenti.ing.unipi.it at the University of Pisa (Italy). URL: http://www.freeweb.org/computer/enrico/hp2modem.htm > http://www.hp-sources.com/internetprime/english.html 's link for the > instructions on how to make the HP48 to modem cable[to access Internet on the > HP] gives Error 404. Does anyone here has the instructions to make this cable? I > *want* to access internet via my HP48. > -- > Famous last words in HP48: #9d SYSEVAL ==== I first want to thank Wolfgang Rautenberg for such a great utility! I did have a question/problem though. When I first ran AddU and did the example addU in MONEY (of euro to dollars conversion) from HOME it worked fine. But, I didn't like the fact that variables were created in my HOME directory. So I tried re-running AddU from a subdirectory, thinking I could bury the newly created names in there. But, it now gives me a 'CONVERT Error: Invalid unit'. Also, when I select the MONEY unit I no longer seem to have the dollar name in my soft menu. I have tried removing the library and re-installing, but I cannot seem to get back to the original state (hidden variables created?). How can I resolve this? How can one remove newly defined units out of the HOME directory? Steve ==== > I have tried removing the library and re-installing, but I cannot > seem to get back to the original state (hidden variables created?). > How can I resolve this? How can one remove newly defined units out of > the HOME directory? You may use the FILES-key go into home and look for the hidden variables. Theire might be a $-variable. By the way, in case you do not like varialbes in your home-dir, you can hide them yourself by using the ORDER-command in the filer. Just put them behind the Variable with the empty string name: ... Here you can find a catalog for Wolfgangs tools, including Unitman. http://www.praxelius.de/raut/ which is for sure more up to date. ==== > Steven Martin schrieb: > I have tried removing the library and re-installing, but I cannot > seem to get back to the original state (hidden variables created?). > How can I resolve this? > You may use the FILES-key go into home and look for the hidden > variables. Theire might be a $-variable. > By the way, in case you do not like varialbes in your home-dir, > you can hide them yourself by using the ORDER-command in the > filer. Just put them behind the Variable with the empty string name: > ... > Here you can find a catalog for Wolfgangs tools, including Unitman. > http://www.praxelius.de/raut/ > which is for sure more up to date. it is not recommended to put the files created by Unitman in a separate directory, no need for that. Moreover, you should *hide* them in HOME. Simply load Filer5 (for the 49+) from my Filers tools at the URL quoted by . Filer5 contains powerful hiding/unhiding tools on the SPC-key if you are inside a directory, for instance HOME. It is quite obvious that a very advanced calculator like the HP49+ needs comfortable hiding tools. I have more than 30 hidden variables in my HOME directory (many of them units like $), several others in the not visible in the VAR menu and hence also protected against unintended hundred of hidden PC-files of Windows) and are modified only by other programs, very seldom by hand (only hackers like doing this). Hope this helps Wolfgang ==== > >>Steven Martin schrieb: >>>I have tried removing the library and re-installing, but I cannot >>>seem to get back to the original state (hidden variables created?). >>>How can I resolve this? > > >>You may use the FILES-key go into home and look for the hidden >>variables. Theire might be a $-variable. >>By the way, in case you do not like varialbes in your home-dir, >>you can hide them yourself by using the ORDER-command in the >>filer. Just put them behind the Variable with the empty string name: >>... >>Here you can find a catalog for Wolfgangs tools, including Unitman. >>http://www.praxelius.de/raut/ >>which is for sure more up to date. > > > it is not recommended to put the files created by Unitman in a separate > directory, no need for that. Moreover, you should *hide* them in HOME. > Simply load Filer5 (for the 49+) from my Filers tools at the URL quoted > by . Filer5 contains powerful hiding/unhiding tools on the SPC-key > if you are inside a directory, for instance HOME. > > It is quite obvious that a very advanced calculator like the HP49+ needs > comfortable hiding tools. I have more than 30 hidden variables in my > HOME directory (many of them units like $), several others in the > > not visible in the VAR menu and hence also protected against unintended > hundred of hidden PC-files of Windows) and are modified only by other > programs, very seldom by hand (only hackers like doing this). > > Hope this helps > Wolfgang By the way, the filers package (at least versions 1-3) on your website crashes under ROM 1.19-6 running on a 49G. However, I did get forward to trying out filer5 once I get a 49G+ (not yet available in the US). Steve ==== > > >>Steven Martin schrieb: > >>>I have tried removing the library and re-installing, but I cannot >>>seem to get back to the original state (hidden variables created?). >>>How can I resolve this? > >>You may use the FILES-key go into home and look for the hidden >>variables. Theire might be a $-variable. >>By the way, in case you do not like varialbes in your home-dir, >>you can hide them yourself by using the ORDER-command in the >>filer. Just put them behind the Variable with the empty string name: >>... >>Here you can find a catalog for Wolfgangs tools, including Unitman. >>http://www.praxelius.de/raut/ >>which is for sure more up to date. > > it is not recommended to put the files created by Unitman in a separate > directory, no need for that. Moreover, you should *hide* them in HOME. > Simply load Filer5 (for the 49+) from my Filers tools at the URL quoted > by . Filer5 contains powerful hiding/unhiding tools on the SPC-key > if you are inside a directory, for instance HOME. > > It is quite obvious that a very advanced calculator like the HP49+ needs > comfortable hiding tools. I have more than 30 hidden variables in my > HOME directory (many of them units like $), several others in the > > not visible in the VAR menu and hence also protected against unintended > hundred of hidden PC-files of Windows) and are modified only by other > programs, very seldom by hand (only hackers like doing this). > > Hope this helps > Wolfgang > > > By the way, the filers package (at least versions 1-3) on your > website crashes under ROM 1.19-6 running on a 49G. However, I did get > forward to trying out filer5 once I get a 49G+ (not yet available in the > US). could you be more specific? Which function is crashing? I can't believe this as they are used by many people. No unstable pointers. Though it is true that I recompiled the last version package in a more recent ROM. - Wolfgang ==== > >>>>>>Steven Martin schrieb: >>>>>>>>>I have tried removing the library and re-installing, but I cannot >>>>>seem to get back to the original state (hidden variables created?). >>>>>How can I resolve this? >>>>>>You may use the FILES-key go into home and look for the hidden >>>>variables. Theire might be a $-variable. >>>>By the way, in case you do not like varialbes in your home-dir, >>>>you can hide them yourself by using the ORDER-command in the >>>>filer. Just put them behind the Variable with the empty string name: >>>>... >>>>Here you can find a catalog for Wolfgangs tools, including Unitman. >>>>http://www.praxelius.de/raut/ >>>>which is for sure more up to date. >>>>>it is not recommended to put the files created by Unitman in a separate >>>directory, no need for that. Moreover, you should *hide* them in HOME. >>>Simply load Filer5 (for the 49+) from my Filers tools at the URL quoted >>>by . Filer5 contains powerful hiding/unhiding tools on the SPC-key >>>if you are inside a directory, for instance HOME. >>>>It is quite obvious that a very advanced calculator like the HP49+ needs >>>comfortable hiding tools. I have more than 30 hidden variables in my >>>HOME directory (many of them units like $), several others in the >>>>not visible in the VAR menu and hence also protected against unintended >>>hundred of hidden PC-files of Windows) and are modified only by other >>>programs, very seldom by hand (only hackers like doing this). >>>>Hope this helps >>> Wolfgang >>By the way, the filers package (at least versions 1-3) on your >>website crashes under ROM 1.19-6 running on a 49G. However, I did get >>forward to trying out filer5 once I get a 49G+ (not yet available in the >>US). > > > could you be more specific? Which function is crashing? I can't believe > this as they are used by many people. No unstable pointers. Though it is > true that I recompiled the last version package in a more recent ROM. > > - Wolfgang As soon as I launch Filer I get what looks like random dotes on the screen and then it crashes the OS (prompts for memory recover). I am running ROM 1.19-6 on a 49G. In the docs with the package you refer to some versions of filer requiring better than 1.19-6. My understanding was that the very latest version for the 49G is 1.19-7 but it is not in public release. Is it possible to now get this release? I presume (although not tested) that all of the most recent ROMs (>1.20) posted on HPs website will only work on the 49G+. Let me know if you would like me to run further tests or want more information. Steve ==== > As soon as I launch Filer I get what looks like random dotes on the > screen and then it crashes the OS (prompts for memory recover). > I am running ROM 1.19-6 on a 49G. Load it again, now best from http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49/index.htm > ... My understanding was that the very latest > version for the 49G is 1.19-7 but it is not in public release. Is it > possible to now get this release? JYA is the right person to be asked. Those who have already a HP49G+ can easily infer from hacking the key functions of EQW and '' that upgrading the HP49 is in preparation (see the thread Double-click on the 49+). When this will happen is hardly to predict. > Let me know if you would like me to run further tests or want more > information. Yes. Testing and report in this NG is always well-come. ==== Upgrade 48 question: How is possible to re-enable the internal 32k or 128k chip as port 2. ==== À? 256Kb + 32Kb? help!. ==== Um, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here. If I understand what I've been told and have read around the HP fan sites, on a 48G, as I have, you cannot access the old 32 kb RAM chip after you install the 128 kb one because the 32 kb chip MUST BE REMOVED FIRST!! Further, 256 kb is possible only if two 128's are piggybacked with solder or fine wire and solder. In other words, not all that possible, even for those who might be medium-good at burning little holes in their bedsheets... or even the pro, as this is not a normal way of adding chips. Did I help at all?? > À? 256Kb + 32Kb? help!. > ==== I have 256Kb in my 48G, but I want re-enable my 32Kb chip. (Total 288kb). I have two 128Kb DIP chips in PCB, and my 32Kb chip NOT removed completely, only 2 pins. Is possible re-enable my old chip?. Sorry for my poor english. -Dante. ==== Dante, or 48G+ to be able address more than 128 kb, it won't since you have 256 kb working, I assume you must have. How were you able to install the 128's without removing the 32 kb chip?? Ed > I have 256Kb in my 48G, but I want re-enable my 32Kb chip. (Total > 288kb). I have two 128Kb DIP chips in PCB, and my 32Kb chip NOT > removed completely, only 2 pins. > Is possible re-enable my old chip?. > Sorry for my poor english. -Dante. > ==== Upgrade48 here: http://www.eurobotics.org/hp_upgrade3.html (spanish) I followed the steps there described. The 128Kb chip can be seen (I have 32Kb there, and el PCB with two 128Kb chips). Only 20 and 22 pins unsolder. Sorry for may poor english again. ==== ==== > the new Connectivity seems to be less perfect than the old one. A bad > thing is that it has no Uninstall which removes all writings in the Win > registers. That's one reason not to use Windows. > Very ugly also that it doesn't inform you that something may > be wrong in IOPAR or that you switched to infrared. > > Thus, better purge your IOPAR before starting the kit. Without success. > The Server mode > then creates the default IOPAR with a Baud rate of 115200, Parity none, > Checksum 3 and Translation level 1. Theoretically, these values should > not influence USB but who knows... Most important: don't forget to > choose wire. The state of SysFlag -33 is not stored in IOPAR. I did so too. Strangely enough, the HPx9+-port appeares when turning the calculator on an dissappeares when I turn it of, flawlessly, as it should. I was even able to update to 1.22, but Conn4 doesn't make a connection to the calculator. What happens if you run the USB-test? Michael ==== > > Michael ==== > A bad > thing is that it has no Uninstall which removes all writings in the Win > registers. Ctrl-Panel / Add-Remove Programs is the standard uninstall for Windows and is provided. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Graves RKBA! bgraves@ix.netcom.com ==== Michael, The only thing I could suggest to you, since I haven't seen it posted in this thread yet, is to make sure you're using the latest build of Conn4x. The version of Conn4x that comes on the CD has an older build than the version on HP's web site. I had similar problems with the older build on the CD. Once I uninstalled it and installed the version from the web site, all worked perfectly. Just a suggestion. Hope it works for you. Doug > the new Connectivity seems to be less perfect than the old one. A bad > thing is that it has no Uninstall which removes all writings in the Win > registers. That's one reason not to use Windows. > Very ugly also that it doesn't inform you that something may > be wrong in IOPAR or that you switched to infrared. > > Thus, better purge your IOPAR before starting the kit. Without success. > The Server mode > then creates the default IOPAR with a Baud rate of 115200, Parity none, > Checksum 3 and Translation level 1. Theoretically, these values should > not influence USB but who knows... Most important: don't forget to > choose wire. The state of SysFlag -33 is not stored in IOPAR. I did so too. Strangely enough, the HPx9+-port appeares when turning > the calculator on an dissappeares when I turn it of, flawlessly, as it > should. I was even able to update to 1.22, but Conn4 doesn't make a > connection to the calculator. What happens if you run the USB-test? Michael ==== ==== Michael -- -= Michael Hoppe , =------ ==== >>If all this still fails, what Windows version? ==== -- > -= Michael Hoppe , =------ ==== ==== ==== The problem with rechargeables is that they go from working to flat, so by the time you have Low batt, you can't use the calc anymore. However, they should last slightly longer than alkalines so I guess you could recharge them every 2 weeks but always have a pack of non rechargeables handy. That is because an other inconvenient of rechargeables is that they tend to auto discharge quite quickly. It should probably work OK on rechargeable alkaline batteries like the Rayvac Renewal, though my 49g+ isn't here yet so I can't try it. I have yet to find a device that will run on regular alkalines but not on rechargeable alkalines. NiCd or NiMH batteries may have too low a voltage; even if it works when fully charged, the calculator will probably report that the battery is low very quickly and stop working while the battery still has a fair bit of charge left. ==== In my experience, the Bat Low indicator comes on when the voltage reaches about 1.2v the rechargeables generally will work ever so slightly above that but the voltage remains constant unlike alkalines whcih start out at 1.59 and then drop in voltage as they discharge. The rechargeables do discharge very quickly when they get close to the end, but that whould be no problem because of the memory backup battery. I think there should be no problem with rechargeables. > I got my 49g+ 13 days ago and today I got my first Low Battery > message. Does anybody know if I can use it with rechargable > batteries?, if I can, what type of rechargable batteries do I need? > > It should probably work OK on rechargeable alkaline batteries like the > Rayvac Renewal, though my 49g+ isn't here yet so I can't try it. > I have yet to find a device that will run on regular alkalines but not > on rechargeable alkalines. > > NiCd or NiMH batteries may have too low a voltage; even if it works when > fully charged, the calculator will probably report that the battery is > low very quickly and stop working while the battery still has a fair bit > of charge left. ==== I use NiCd rechargables in my 49g and they work fine. They last about 3.5 weeks with regular use (engineering student). The calc works with the low battery indicator for about a week. Andrew >In my experience, the Bat Low indicator comes on when the voltage >reaches about 1.2v the rechargeables generally will work ever so >slightly above that but the voltage remains constant unlike alkalines >whcih start out at 1.59 and then drop in voltage as they discharge. >The rechargeables do discharge very quickly when they get close to the >end, but that whould be no problem because of the memory backup >battery. I think there should be no problem with rechargeables. > I got my 49g+ 13 days ago and today I got my first Low Battery >> message. Does anybody know if I can use it with rechargable >> batteries?, if I can, what type of rechargable batteries do I need? >> >> It should probably work OK on rechargeable alkaline batteries like the >> Rayvac Renewal, though my 49g+ isn't here yet so I can't try it. >> I have yet to find a device that will run on regular alkalines but not >> on rechargeable alkalines. >> >> NiCd or NiMH batteries may have too low a voltage; even if it works when >> fully charged, the calculator will probably report that the battery is >> low very quickly and stop working while the battery still has a fair bit >> of charge left. ==== In 1997 Mr. Daniel F. Rosa, as part of his Masters Thesis at the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh was able to interface the HP48GX calculator with a Vernier Universal Lab Interface box to collect data from a motion sensor as well as others. The limiting factor was the slow wire transfer speed of the 48. However now that the 49G+ is coming out, I thought one might be able to take advantage of the much higher transfer speed of the 49G+ to interface it with both the ULI interface box as well as the newer Vernier LabPro interface. The LabPro has flash memory, so it would be possible to program it to talk to the 49G+. The ability to use the HP49G+ in this manner might put a small chink in TI's armor. After all the interfaces are already out there, all one would need is the software to talk to the interfaces. much work to convert them for the 49G+. Also the higher transfer speed of the 49G+ would open up areas not available to the GX because of the slower transfer speeds. The large amount of storage using an SD card, means that large data sets could be stored on the 49G+ for later data analysis on a computer or for analysis right on the calculator. Here is a copy of the abstract: Daniel F. Rosa Jr. Controlling the Universal Lab Interface with the Hewlett-Packard 48 Series Calculator Thesis Abstract for M. S. Degree in Physics - Instrumentation The Universal Lab Interface (ULI) is a device used in laboratories to collect data electronically. Normally, this device is controlled by a microcomputer. This thesis shows how the HP 48 series calculator, manufactured by Hewlett-Packard, can replace the microcomputer as a controlling device for the ULI. The HP 48 series calculator has serial interface capabilities and has serial data transmission rates that can be matched by the ULI. Programs were written using a form of BASIC called User-RPL for the calculator, that accesses the calculator's input buffer. The low cost of the calculator and programmability of the input buffer are just two features of the calculator that make this project feasible and cost effective for many applications. Two applications are shown that feature the versatility of the system incorporating the ULI with the Hewlett-Packard calculator. Different methods of data acquisition from the calculator's input buffer are discussed and compared. The programs used to send, receive and process command codes and data between the ULI and HP 48 calculator are included in this thesis. Also, a comparison between this system and a commercial product currently available is given. ==== > BTW I forgot to say that Programmers Reference Manuals for both the ULI and the LabPro are available for free on Vernier's Web site. ==== What communication protocol does it use? Modbus RTU or Modbus ASCII by any chance? Does it happen to require CRC-16 or LRC error checking? No one was responsive to my earlier requests for help on this list for Modbus or CRC-16 application programs ... so either not very many people are doing this, or my luck at soliciting help isn't worth a darn. Like you, I am also doing something similar. I'm using an off the shelf remote terminal unit manufactured by (Control Microsystems) Scadapak. I just finished working out a program that will do the CRC-16 error checking per the Modbus RTU standard. With my hp48sx I can communicate with other RTU's using a similar protocol that is based on the Bell 202T standard. Soon I hope to be able to do this using Modbus RTU. It is quite novel to be able to read analog transmitters and control outside world devices in response to some calculated set of parameters based on them. An example of my application is a remote valve control system, based on flow conditions on a natural gas pipeline. I also have a program to control the odorant injection using an electronic mass flow sensor device as an input to the hp48sx then control the solenoid (time-based) injectors with the calculated odorant injection rate by my hp48sx. The calculator is small, portable, and efficient as a handheld device and rugged enough for field operations; as compared to a laptop computer (for example). ==== What communication protocol does it use? Modbus RTU or Modbus ASCII >by any chance? Does it happen to require CRC-16 or LRC error >checking? No one was responsive to my earlier requests for help on this list for >Modbus or CRC-16 application programs ... so either not very many >people are doing this, or my luck at soliciting help isn't worth a >darn. Like you, I am also doing something similar. I'm using an off the >shelf remote terminal unit manufactured by (Control Microsystems) >Scadapak. I just finished working out a program that will do the >CRC-16 error checking per the Modbus RTU standard. With my hp48sx I >can communicate with other RTU's using a similar protocol that is >based on the Bell 202T standard. Soon I hope to be able to do this >using Modbus RTU. It is quite novel to be able to read analog >transmitters and control outside world devices in response to some >calculated set of parameters based on them. An example of my application is a remote valve control system, based >on flow conditions on a natural gas pipeline. I also have a program >to control the odorant injection using an electronic mass flow sensor >device as an input to the hp48sx then control the solenoid >(time-based) injectors with the calculated odorant injection rate by >my hp48sx. The calculator is small, portable, and efficient as a >handheld device and rugged enough for field operations; as compared to >a laptop computer (for example). I quote from the LabPro Programmers Referance Manual Programming of LabPro consists of sending a series of commands to configure the desired operation. There are a few dozen commands to control LabPro and request its status. Within a program, different commands are used to set up the number of active channels, rate of data collection, quantity of data collected, and how data is to be processed. Since the command set is rather extensive, this manual will detail some building blocks to illustrate how the commands are used within the context of a program. Each command consists of a series of numbers that are sent to the LabPro. For example, the data rate for data collection is set with a Command 3, like this: 3,1,1,0 If you are using a TI calculator to write the programs, you typically store the data in a list and then send it to LabPro. If you are using a computer to control LabPro, you send these commands to LabPro using either the serial or USB port. Refer to the Calculator Programming and Computer Programming sections of this manual. I assume that sending commands from the 48GX or the 49G+ would be similar. I ==== X X > Each command consists of a series of numbers that are sent to the > LabPro. For example, the data rate for data collection is set with a > Command 3, like this: > 3,1,1,0 If you are using a TI calculator to write the programs, you typically > store the data in a list and then send it to LabPro. If you are using > a computer to control LabPro, you send these commands to LabPro using > either the serial or USB port. Refer to the Calculator Programming and > Computer Programming sections of this manual. > I assume that sending commands from the 48GX or the 49G+ would be > similar. I would try that with the new hp 48gII, which has a fast serial port... Just a though... ==== >X >>>>much work to convert them for the 49G+. Also the higher transfer speed >>>>of the 49G+ would open up areas not available to the GX because of the >>>>slower transfer speeds. >X >> Each command consists of a series of numbers that are sent to the >> LabPro. For example, the data rate for data collection is set with a >> Command 3, like this: >> 3,1,1,0 >> If you are using a TI calculator to write the programs, you typically >> store the data in a list and then send it to LabPro. If you are using >> a computer to control LabPro, you send these commands to LabPro using >> either the serial or USB port. Refer to the Calculator Programming and >> Computer Programming sections of this manual. >> I assume that sending commands from the 48GX or the 49G+ would be >> similar. >I would try that with the new hp 48gII, which has a fast serial port... >Just a though... > How fast are the 48GII and the 49G Plus highest wire transfer speeds? If it is fast enough, Real Time data collection might be possible using both the Universal Lab Interface as well as the LabPro interface. The ULI can send and receive at 115000 bps and the LabPro is somewhat faster.(384000, I think) Also is the USB port of the calulators really a USB port or is it a serial port in disguise? If it is a real USB port then it might be possible to use the 48GII or the 46G+ as a controller instead of a computer. Harold A. Climer Physics/Geology/Astronomy Lab Instructor U. Tennessee At Chattanooga ==== X The USB in the 49g+ is a client, not host To be sure use 48gII instead... ==== This last fact might cause a problem if one wishes to use the 49G+ as a controller. I wonder if it would be possible ,in a later OS upgrade, to have the 489G+ software selectable as either as a USB client or a host, Also, I was just thinking if one device has to be a host and one has to be a client, how will it be possible to connect two 49g+s to each other to transfer data ,etc? Harold A. Climer Physics/Geology/Astronomy Lab Instructor U. Tennessee At Chattanooga ==== IrDA, 115200 bps ==== No wire to wire transfer from 49G+ to 49G+. If this is so this is a step backwards IMHO. What a load. Harold A. Climer Physics/Geology/Astronomy Lab Instructor U. Tennessee At Chattanooga ==== No, it's a hardware limitation. The Samsung processor in the 49G+ has both host and device USB ports, but they are distinct and non-interchangeable. The 49G+ wires the device port to the connector, and that port cannot be used as a host to talk to USB devices. ==== How are we able to backup to the computer then? Does the computer have to initiate the transfer? ie the 49G+ can't initiate the transfer, right? ==== > No wire to wire transfer from 49G+ to 49G+. > If this is so this is a step backwards IMHO. 49g+ to 49g+ transfer via IR is *faster* than 48GX to 48GX via *wire*, so at least in that regard it's a step forward, IMHO. Also, every serious 49g+ user has an SD card, which allows you to copy and transfer anything at all from one 49g+ to another in practically zero time and with ZERO power drain on the receiving end... a HUGE step forward! -Joe- ==== Joe, you have obviously not heart of the battery problems. ZERO power drain while transferring/reading from an SD? Long names work? NO!¸ Fast access? NO!!! (reading type info of all files...) NO WAY MAN!! The underlying Chinese OS sucks on this one.... ==== In a technical sense, yes, all USB transactions are initiated by the host, which in this case is the computer. However, in a more practical sense, the computer (when the right software is installed) may be polling for requests from the calculator. Thus to the user it may appear that the calculator can initiate transfers. ==== True great improvments, however I was thinking along the lines of being able to use the 49G+ as one can do with TI calculators and the Vernier LabPro interface or even the older ULI interface fro real time data colection. Without the ability to configure the 49G+ as a USB host as well as a USB client this possibility is not feasible. HP has punted the ball to TI again. ==== X > True great improvments, however I was thinking along the lines of > being able to use the 49G+ as one can do with TI calculators and the > Vernier LabPro interface or even the older ULI interface fro real time > data colection. Without the ability to configure the 49G+ as a USB > host as well as a USB client this possibility is not feasible. HP has > punted the ball to TI again. TI: 19,200_bps HP 48gII: 115,200_bps ==== Is there a way to use stored variables in the hp48 linear system solver? I've only been able to type the values in place in the solver. If not, is there an aftermarket linear system solver tool that allows the use of variables? ==== You ignorant SCUM, you cant even be original with the title you use. Brain-dead scumbag. > Christina Aguilera poseing topless http://home.attbi.com/~charly.mack/ChristinaAguilera.scr osylvrxhkwxtyvrqvvtndpgfehwghrtqzpqfbszodibzhsico > ==== > You ignorant SCUM, you cant even be original with the title you use. > Brain-dead scumbag. You're not much better. Why did you feel a need to repost that spam? ==== My mistake for reposting the link, I was just angry ay seeing this shit. So piss off smartass. > You ignorant SCUM, you cant even be original with the title you use. > Brain-dead scumbag. You're not much better. Why did you feel a need to repost that spam? ==== > BTW just so you know that file contains a virus... ;-) > doesn't bother me b/c i'm on linux hehe I agree but now this crap if flooding the internet so everything slows down, (newsgroups) fills up faster than I can empty it! -- Stacey ==== > I agree but now this crap if flooding the internet so everything slows > (newsgroups) fills up faster than I can empty it! /dev/null. -- John Miller If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. ==== > well yeah, but unfortunately this particular virus is sending itself > to addresses it gets off usenet too. So for every retard that gets > about 1500-2000 of the fuckers a day. > > I'm running an immune OS, and I have a decent connection, and it is > still pissing me off, I pity anyone getting hit with the same amounts > as I am who is on a dial-up. well... i have my account full all day, and get those messages faster then i can delete them. And, i must say that your right JYAvenard, i have dial up and it is a piss off. Eddy ==== First of all, sorry i have made a mistake and i have write a letter in spanish. I whant know why there arent hp49+ emulator, i wont buy a new hp if i cant see new things. And i remmember that someone said that a new rom for hp49g went out with the new rom for hp49+ but i begin to thing that all is lie. Andreu. ==== OK, I give up. What is an ARM with a saturn piggyback. I know what a saturn is supposed to be, nibbles and all, but........ Chuck... ==== > OK, I give up. What is an ARM with a saturn piggyback. I know what a > saturn is supposed to be, nibbles and all, but........ > Chuck, I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but in the new HP calcs an ARM9 CPU is used to emulate the old Saturn CPU. ==== I was a heavy user and RPL-programmer on the 48GX, but since I got my 49g I have spent little time on hpcalc.org. I got my g+ last week and am quite impressed with it, but the next question is, what is the absolute must-have software? Editors, games, tools and statistics applications are the things I am lloking for. Uwe ==== KeymanPlus. look ar keys OT49Plus look at tools Wolfgang ftp://ftp.math.fu-berlin.de/pub/usr/raut/HP49 I was a heavy user and RPL-programmer on the 48GX, but since I got my > 49g I have spent little time on hpcalc.org. I got my g+ last week and am > quite impressed with it, but the next question is, what is the absolute > must-have software? Editors, games, tools and statistics applications > are the things I am lloking for. Uwe > ==== > http://www.hp-sources.com/internetprime/english.html > Great program! May I suggest the following enhancements: 1) If the program is started with an URL string on stack it tries to start with that page 2) [HIST] makes it possible to take an URL from the Stack Could be some other key to be compatible with the 48 Maybe using the letters is the best way to remember commands 3) [???] I don't know, you figure what key should be used ? Maybe they should be stored/recalled from { URL Favorites } 4) Blue shift then arrows : to shift one screenful at a time < ^ v > ==== > Well, what about bringing internet on your HP49G+ ? > It shall soon be possible, like on HP49G : cf > http://www.hp-sources.com/internetprime/english.html > Great program! Did you use a modem or a shared connection with a PC ? > May I suggest the following enhancements: > 1) > If the program is started with an URL string on stack > it tries to start with that page Well, usually, a string on stack level 1 is considered as an HTML page to display... But perhaps if the HP is connected to internet, we can say that Navigator goes to the specified page. I'll try to implement that. > 2) > [HIST] makes it possible to take an URL from the Stack > Could be some other key to be compatible with the 48 Yes, since Navigator is now available for 48 (I spent a lot of time converting that program, since I used the static adresses between 822B2 and 85B32 in the 49 version, first developped) ! > Maybe using the letters is the best way to remember commands That's right that a Favorite feature would be a good idea. Perhaps not taking the favorite URLs from the stack, where they would be easily deleted/lost but in a list called 'Favorites', or something like that. > 3) > [???] I don't know, you figure what key should be used Some kind of Copy shortcut feature, hey ? That would be easy, since Navigator's core has a possibility to yield the link on the stack. By the way, did you see that Navigator's homemade editor is able to wrap the lines while you're typing text ? That was VERY difficult to perform, and long to fix... > ? Maybe they should be stored/recalled from { URL Favorites } Yes, indeed. > 4) Blue shift then arrows : to shift one screenful at a time < ^ v > I'll put it in the 0.08 version, you have my word. domain, isn't it ? Yoann D.8esir. ==== No formal word from HP yet and Samson Cable is day to day about them coming in. Does anyone know anything? The official US release date has always been Oct. 6 so HP isn't late yet. Samson was told by their distributor that they could get some early but it seems as though the distributor doesn't have as much clout as it says with HP. ==== Paul Nelson at Calcpro (www.calcpro.com) in Oregon has them now. Jake Schwartz ==== Today, 10/7, I ordered my HP-49g+ from CalcPro by telephone. They have them in stock. I arranged for delivery tomorrow morning, AM, 10/8. I justified this hideous extra expense because I must go with my wife to visit my mother-in-law over the weekend. With the new calculator I hope to be completely distracted. ==== As the title states, where are the new 49G+ manufactured ? Aubrey. ==== HP has subcontracted the design to an ROC company (Kimpo) which subcontracts a PRC company for manufacture. So it is fully chinese. For the HW. SW I guess is Australian?? Arnaud > As the title states, where are the new 49G+ manufactured ? > Aubrey. ==== >HP has subcontracted the design to an ROC company (Kimpo) which subcontracts >a PRC company for manufacture. So it is fully chinese. For the HW. >SW I guess is Australian?? Can we buy it from the manufacturer to save money? ==== >>HP has subcontracted the design to an ROC company (Kimpo) which subcontracts >>a PRC company for manufacture. So it is fully chinese. For the HW. >>SW I guess is Australian?? > Can we buy it from the manufacturer to save money? You know, really! I mean, why should we pay for the HP name if they don't have anything to do with the produtcs anymore? Sad. -- -Joshua Belsky jjbelsky@yahoo.com http://belsky.net ==== > >HP has subcontracted the design to an ROC company (Kimpo) which subcontracts >a PRC company for manufacture. So it is fully chinese. For the HW. >SW I guess is Australian?? > > Can we buy it from the manufacturer to save money? I guess HP have an exclusivity contract. Or maybe if you buy a few millions of them? I have already tried to buy direct from Taiwanese manufacturers and it is not easy if you don't buy MANY. I got my girlfriend from Taiwan though and I guess she would not be hapy if I got many. Arnaud ==== > > You know, really! I mean, why should we pay for the HP name if they don't > have anything to do with the produtcs anymore? Sad. That's a distortion of the truth. There's the HP reputation that gets used in the marketing. Someone at HP must have a bit of technical ability in order to write the specs (assuming that like the HP49, but with an ARM processor isn't quite enough). On top of that I bet there must have been a whole team spending their lives in meetings looking at each others bullshit powerpoint presentations. A bientot Paul -- Paul Floyd http://paulf.free.fr (for what it's worth) Surgery: ennobled Gerald. ==== >> >> You know, really! I mean, why should we pay for the HP name if they don't >> have anything to do with the produtcs anymore? Sad. > That's a distortion of the truth. There's the HP reputation that gets > used in the marketing. Someone at HP must have a bit of technical > ability in order to write the specs (assuming that like the HP49, but > with an ARM processor isn't quite enough). On top of that I bet there > must have been a whole team spending their lives in meetings looking at > each others bullshit powerpoint presentations. Ha ha! Of course, I can write a better spec than that: Like the HP49G but with an ARM and QUALITY! Beat that, Tewlett Iackard! -- -Joshua Belsky jjbelsky@yahoo.com http://belsky.net ==== > >>HP has subcontracted the design to an ROC company (Kimpo) which subcontracts >>a PRC company for manufacture. So it is fully chinese. For the HW. >>SW I guess is Australian?? > > Can we buy it from the manufacturer to save money? > > You know, really! I mean, why should we pay for the HP name if they don't > have anything to do with the produtcs anymore? Sad. I have an HP IPAQ 1915 PDA. It is also made by a contract manufacturer. The build quality is excellent, I have had a few PDAs and this is the best made, in subtle ways you may not notice when buying it (eg, the microphone is great in all kinds of conditions). (it is good in lots of ways actually). And even if HP still owned the manufacturing operation, there would be lots of things inside the calculator which they buy. Putting bits together has become just another step in the supply chain. HP probably specifies and chooses the supplier of all the important components (including the keyboard). ==== > On top of that I bet there > must have been a whole team spending their lives in meetings looking at > each others bullshit powerpoint presentations. You made my day /Corvallis resident ==== I am an Engineer, and my HP28S just died. I would like to buy a HP48GX or a HP49G but they are discontinued. Does anyone know where I might find one in the US or Canada? Mike ==== I am an Engineer, and my HP28S just died. I would like to buy a HP48GX > or a HP49G but they are discontinued. Does anyone know where I might > find one in the US or Canada? Get the new hp 49g+ http://www.hpcalc.org/hp49gplus.php It's fast, has USB, IrDA, SD/MMC interface ==== I was in the same situation a several months ago. I bought a new old-stock HP48GX from Sampson Cables without any difficulty about a month ago. Later, I even saw new but discontinued HP48GX's on the shelf for sale at Fry's Electronics stores. Documentation can be harder to find (and more expensive) than the calculator. I am an Engineer, and my HP28S just died. I would like to buy a HP48GX > or a HP49G but they are discontinued. Does anyone know where I might > find one in the US or Canada? Mike ==== In the printed and pdf manuals for the 49g+ I cannot find anything about the where command |. On page 6-8 of the pdf manual (page 206/874 - I wish the pages could just be numbered in a simple sequence) I find the only reference to | in this sentence: (The examples below shows[sic] how you can replace X with any other variable by using the function |.) But the examples don't appear to show anything like that? Certainly there is no other instance of | as such that I can see anywhere else in the manuals. BTW I tested my 700mAh NiMH with the 49g+ running flat out solving an ODE with am impossibly small tolerance (E-15 where I know the answer is 317.722...). It ran for 10 hours before shutting down. Assuming the 80mA figure that Daniel posted for the running 49g+, that means 800mAh was consumed. Looks like only about 40% of the charge (800/(3*700))was used before the voltage dropped below the threshold? I wonder what the cutoff voltage is and if the error/warning can be ignored somehow? That's what we do on the HP200LX with NiMH - the standard cutoff is about 2.3V but I let mine run down to 2.0V with no real problem, although I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. - Tony ==== Just a comment about your power calculations...... As you mention, each cell will give you 700 mA for 1 hour (700mAh) but for the rated voltage of 1.2 volts. If your application (HP49+ in this case) requires a higher voltage then you build a battery by connecting additional cells in series, this will NOT increase the cell or the battery capacity, only the voltage. Remember, voltage add up but current is the same for all elements in series, just the opposite for elements connected in parallel. Based on this, you can see that your batteries were drained pretty much to the end of their charge after 10 hours operating at 80mA. ==== Just a comment about your power calculations...... As you mention, each cell will give you 700 mA for 1 hour (700mAh) but for the rated voltage of 1.2 volts. If your application (HP49+ in this case) requires a higher voltage then you build a battery by connecting additional cells in series, this will NOT increase the cell or the battery capacity, only the voltage. Remember, voltage add up but current is the same for all elements in series, just the opposite for elements connected in parallel. Based on this, you can see that your batteries were drained pretty much to the end of their charge after 10 hours operating at 80mA. ==== +----------------------------------------------+ | Fri, 19.9.03 08:12 a.m. +1200 (NZT) | +----------------------------------------------+ in message ID : > > Just a comment about your power calculations...... > As you mention, each cell will give you 700 mA for 1 hour > (700mAh) but for the rated voltage of 1.2 volts. > If your application (HP49+ in this case) requires a higher > voltage then you build a battery by connecting additional > cells in series, this will NOT increase the cell or the > battery capacity, only the voltage. battery. The 49g+ demands current of 80mA, and it seems the battery supplies that at sufficient voltage for the 49g+ to stay awake and working a long time. > Remember, voltage add up but current is the same for all > elements in series, just the opposite for elements connected > in parallel. Yes I remember that, but obviously never really understood it. > Based on this, you can see that your batteries were drained > pretty much to the end of their charge after 10 hours > operating at 80mA. That is good news. I don't have a voltmeter, but for my next test I'll do a 5 hour run. Hopefully then the ((*)) will show, and I can see how long the calculator remains useful - I suspect it will operate just fine for quite a while. Also I was wrong about the 49g+ key click - it can be turned on and off. Finally I heard it! Must be going a bit deaf ;-) -- Tony Hutchins Wellington New Zealand #277 It is terrible to speak well and be wrong. Sophocles ==== X > As you mention, each cell will give you 700 mA for 1 hour > (700mAh) but for the rated voltage of 1.2 volts. > If your application (HP49+ in this case) requires a higher > voltage then you build a battery by connecting additional > cells in series, this will NOT increase the cell or the > battery capacity, only the voltage. battery. The 49g+ demands current of 80mA, and it seems the > battery supplies that at sufficient voltage for the 49g+ to > stay awake and working a long time. > Remember, voltage add up but current is the same for all > elements in series, just the opposite for elements connected > in parallel. Yes I remember that, but obviously never really understood it. > Based on this, you can see that your batteries were drained > pretty much to the end of their charge after 10 hours > operating at 80mA. That is good news. I don't have a voltmeter, but for my next You don't need a voltameter with rechargeables. They either work or not. Unlike Alkaline, which decline in voltage during lifetime the NiMH/NiCd stay at 1.2V (or less under stress) up until to the very end of the remaining charge then the voltage drops rapidly, system shuts down and the backup battery takes over to retain your RAM This behavior also makes it easy to forecast Alkaline life, but difficult to predict remaining charge on a NiMH battery. > test I'll do a 5 hour run. Hopefully then the ((*)) will show, > and I can see how long the calculator remains useful - I > suspect it will operate just fine for quite a while. Also I was wrong about the 49g+ key click - it can be turned > on and off. Finally I heard it! Must be going a bit deaf ;-) The click is now less annoying and works well. ==== > You don't need a voltameter with rechargeables. > They either work or not. > Unlike Alkaline, which decline in voltage during lifetime > the NiMH/NiCd stay at 1.2V (or less under stress) > up until to the very end of the remaining charge > then the voltage drops rapidly, system shuts down and > the backup battery takes over to retain your RAM > This behavior also makes it easy to forecast Alkaline life, > but difficult to predict remaining charge on a NiMH battery. NiMH also decline. They start at about 1.5 V and drop to 0.9 V. Alkaline start at a slightliy higher voltage, was it 1.8 V? They also drop to about 0.9 V in the end. Robert ==== +----------------------------------------------+ | Fri, 19.9.03 7:59 p.m. +1200 (NZT) | +----------------------------------------------+ in message ID : > > Based on this, you can see that your batteries were drained > > pretty much to the end of their charge after 10 hours > > operating at 80mA. > > That is good news. I don't have a voltmeter, but for my next > You don't need a voltameter with rechargeables. > They either work or not. Yes, I now tend to agree - today the ((*)) warning came on after 10 hours or so. I was testing in 5 min increments. After that I got 3 more 5 min runs in. On the next one the batteries died after a minute or so. When the calc is busy the ((*)) doesn't show (in the diff eq app at least) till the run stops, and another key is pressed, so I can't be sure when it really registered initially. Still 15 min running is equivalent to about 2 hours on, doing nothing, and probably quite a few days off. I wonder how alkalines last after the ((*)) comes on? Internally there must be 2 voltage-related triggers - designed around an alkaline profile - one that triggers the ((*)) and one for the shut-down. I wonder how low the first one is? I guess about 3.2V or so. Quite lucky how the NiMH work with an alkaline setup!! > Unlike Alkaline, which decline in voltage during lifetime > the NiMH/NiCd stay at 1.2V (or less under stress) > up until to the very end of the remaining charge > then the voltage drops rapidly, system shuts down and > the backup battery takes over to retain your RAM You are right there - alkalines do decline fairly steadily, compared with NiMH. > This behavior also makes it easy to forecast Alkaline life, > but difficult to predict remaining charge on a NiMH battery. Yes, using voltage as a predictor. > Also I was wrong about the 49g+ key click - it can be turned > on and off. Finally I heard it! Must be going a bit deaf ;-) > > The click is now less annoying and works well. I agree - it is quite discreet :) -- Tony Hutchins Wellington New Zealand #16 Beginnings and endings are truly artificial constructs. ==== Where can I buy HP49G Plus? [] CM ==== > Where can I buy HP49G Plus? In the US you can go to https://secure-nt7.american-data.net/samsoncables/catalog/index.cfm They're supposed to be getting them in on 9/24 (tomorrow). They have a low price advertised but I've never bought from them before so I don't really know how they are for prompt delivery or support. Tom Lake ==== http://www.diamron.ch/shop/produkt_detail.cfm?vId=111 With 64Mg: http://www.diamron.ch/shop/produkt_detail.cfm?vId=115 > Where can I buy HP49G Plus? [] > CM ==== > Where can I buy HP49G Plus? > > [] > Paul Estepan. ==== educalc.net that is. > Where can I buy HP49G Plus? > > [] > > Paul Estepan. ==== > Where can I buy HP49G Plus? > > In the US you can go to > > https://secure-nt7.american-data.net/samsoncables/catalog/index.cfm > > They're supposed to be getting them in on 9/24 (tomorrow). They have a low > price advertised but I've never bought from them before so I don't really > know how they are for prompt delivery or support. > > Tom Lake I have bought two HP calcs from them (separately) via the eBay site, and both times the service was fast and delivery to Europe was fine (although I didn't get my eBay feedback point for the second purchase). I didn't pay customs duty either time, so it was a really cheap buy compared to prices in the Netherlands. I would buy again from them. ==== > >>Where can I buy HP49G Plus? > > > In the US you can go to > > https://secure-nt7.american-data.net/samsoncables/catalog/index.cfm > > They're supposed to be getting them in on 9/24 (tomorrow). They have a low > price advertised but I've never bought from them before so I don't really > know how they are for prompt delivery or support. > > Tom Lake > > Their price for the 49g+ is good, but their price for a 32sii is $300. ==== Who own a HP49G+ can please tell me where is it made? China or Taiwan? [] Carlos ==== > Who own a HP49G+ can please tell me where is it made? I don't own one, but of about five units I've examined, all had serial numbers beginning with CN. ==== > Who own a HP49G+ can please tell me where is it made? I don't own one, but of about five units I've examined, all > had serial numbers beginning with CN. Do HP have special serial for Taiwan which is technically ROC Republic Of China, by oposition to PRC People's Republic of China? So I guess they could both be CN. However, it would make more economic sense to manufacture in PRC, many ROC companies do even if it is not encouraged by the government. Arnaud ==== > Who own a HP49G+ can please tell me where is it made? > China or Taiwan? Mine is from China (SN: CN33102663). It had no blood stains on it when I removed it from the package. Kinpo must treat their factory workers better than the typical slave labor workforce is treated in Communist China. Gee, that really warms my heart, knowing that my HP calculator was probably not manufactured in subhuman conditions by a brutal regime that holds the world record for killing more of its own inhabitants than any other in history (cf: Guiness Book of World Records). The people who built this HP 49G+ almost certainly received enough pay to feed their spouse and child (not children; that's equivalent to three years' salary for each parent). Therefore, I think we *owe* it to them to support their economy. Besides, it'll help them build even more nuclear missiles aimed at California, which fully deserves to be vaporized anyhow. Good heavens, Carlos, I'm sorry; that's not what you wanted. The answer you wanted is: CHINA. Ignore the rest. -Joe- -oops, I'm *in* California- ==== > Who own a HP49G+ can please tell me where is it made? > > China or Taiwan? In China carlos serial:cn33109217 Paul Estepan ==== >> Who own a HP49G+ can please tell me where is it made? >> China or Taiwan? > Mine is from China (SN: CN33102663). It had no blood stains on it when > I removed it from the package. Kinpo must treat their factory workers > better than the typical slave labor workforce is treated in > Communist China. Gee, that really warms my heart, knowing that my HP > calculator was probably not manufactured in subhuman conditions by a > brutal regime that holds the world record for killing more of its own > inhabitants than any other in history (cf: Guiness Book of World > Records). The people who built this HP 49G+ almost certainly received > enough pay to feed their spouse and child (not children; that's > equivalent to three years' salary for each parent). Therefore, I think > we *owe* it to them to support their economy. Besides, it'll help them > build even more nuclear missiles aimed at California, which fully > deserves to be vaporized anyhow. > Good heavens, Carlos, I'm sorry; that's not what you wanted. The > answer you wanted is: CHINA. Ignore the rest. > -Joe- -oops, I'm *in* California- Gosh, Joe, it sounds like you're *almost* as fond of doing business with China as I am. (Most people think of Watergate when they hear the name Nixon, but I've always been a lot more irritated with him for opening up relations with China.) -- Myers, Silverlock ==== > > Who own a HP49G+ can please tell me where is it made? > China or Taiwan? > > Mine is from China (SN: CN33102663). It had no blood stains on it when > I removed it from the package. > Why are you so anti-china? What is your problem? Do you know how many know how many innocent people being murdered in California every day? You are not god, you don't have the privilege to point finger on everybody but yourself. I came from China and lived there for 30 years. I still have family there. What you just said was simply not the truth. Man, it is so sick to hear somebody telling a lie and he still enjoys it. ==== > > Who own a HP49G+ can please tell me where is it made? > China or Taiwan? > > Mine is from China (SN: CN33102663). It had no blood stains on it when > I removed it from the package. Kinpo must treat their factory workers > better than the typical slave labor workforce is treated in > Communist China. Many people are happy to get their stuff manufactured there or in even worse conditions and do buy them. I don't see what is communist there. It looks very capitalist to me. >Gee, that really warms my heart, knowing that my HP > calculator was probably not manufactured in subhuman conditions by a > brutal regime that holds the world record for killing more of its own > inhabitants than any other in history (cf: Guiness Book of World > Records). But in proportion to its population it is far from the number one. Take a look at Singapore record this year. >The people who built this HP 49G+ almost certainly received > enough pay to feed their spouse and child (not children; that's > equivalent to three years' salary for each parent). Now in some parts of China people are encouraged to get children. Someone has to pay for the ageing population. >Therefore, I think > we *owe* it to them to support their economy. Besides, it'll help them > build even more nuclear missiles aimed at California, which fully > deserves to be vaporized anyhow. > I couldn't agree more Arnaud ==== The 49G has a white triangle to the right of STO, pointing to the *right*. Does anyone know why that was put there? Just to draw visual attention to the key? The funny thing is that with the VAR menu showing you need to press *left* shift then the variable, to store the command-line or level 1 in the variable. - Tony ==== > > > The 49G has a white triangle to the right of STO, pointing > to the *right*. Does anyone know why that was put there? > > Just to draw visual attention to the key? If you're operating in algebraic mode, the syntax for STO is something STO name and STO is displayed as STO>. > > The funny thing is that with the VAR menu showing you need > to press *left* shift then the variable, to store the > command-line or level 1 in the variable. Irritating, isn't it? This has always driven me nuts about the hp48 and 49. I have the same problem with the keystroke sequence for unit conversions. James ==== in message ID <3F695601.93A70435@jameslothian.freeserve.co.uk> : > If you're operating in algebraic mode, the syntax for STO is > something STO name [...] > The funny thing is that with the VAR menu showing you need > to press *left* shift then the variable, to store the > command-line or level 1 in the variable. > Irritating, isn't it? This has always driven me nuts about the > hp48 and 49. I have the same problem with the keystroke sequence > for unit conversions. Yep, for some reason I expected rs to do the STO. rs sort of points into the machine. And ls for the RCL as it points from inside to outside the machine. -- Tony Hutchins Wellington New Zealand #5 Astrology is Taurus. ==== > Irritating, isn't it? This has always driven me nuts about the > hp48 and 49. I have the same problem with the keystroke sequence > for unit conversions. Looking at my HP48SX: The left shift key is red. So red for writing into a variable. This might be the design decision they took? On later models this doesn't hold anymore, I think. Robert ==== > Irritating, isn't it? This has always driven me nuts about the > hp48 and 49. I have the same problem with the keystroke sequence > for unit conversions. Looking at my HP48SX: The left shift key is red. So red for writing into a > variable. This might be the design decision they took? On later models this > doesn't hold anymore, I think. > You have an extremely rare collectors HP48SX: The left shift key is red. ==== > You have an extremely rare collectors > HP48SX: The left shift key is red. looking at HP-Museum: what do you mean? left shift is red, right shift is blue. I didn't mean the whole key but just the painting on it. Am I missing something? Robert ==== That's because the calculator is built for algebraic logic users. We RPN/RPL old hats didn't need to be reminded where the STO key was, nor of what it did. The 49G has a white triangle to the right of STO, pointing > to the *right*. Does anyone know why that was put there? Just to draw visual attention to the key? The funny thing is that with the VAR menu showing you need > to press *left* shift then the variable, to store the > command-line or level 1 in the variable. - Tony > ==== > You have an extremely rare collectors > HP48SX: The left shift key is red. > looking at HP-Museum: what do you mean? left shift is red, right shift is blue. > I didn't mean the whole key but just the painting on it. Am I missing something? > You better check the color temperature and gamma correction on your monitor and graphics card. Veli-Pekka PS: The right shift (pen) is blue (from Liar, Liar!) The left key is yellow! (I would settle for orange) I can't lie for the newxt 24 hours... ==== > > The funny thing is that with the VAR menu showing you need > > to press *left* shift then the variable, to store the > > command-line or level 1 in the variable. > Yep, for some reason I expected rs to do the STO. rs sort > of points into the machine. And ls for the RCL as it points > from inside to outside the machine. I've always remembered the shift keys as: RRRRight = RRRRCL LLLLeft = LLLLog (Anyone have a better word for STOre, that starts w/ an L?) Matt ==== > > The funny thing is that with the VAR menu showing you need > > to press *left* shift then the variable, to store the > > command-line or level 1 in the variable. > Yep, for some reason I expected rs to do the STO. rs sort > of points into the machine. And ls for the RCL as it points > from inside to outside the machine. I've always remembered the shift keys as: RRRRight = RRRRCL LLLLeft = LLLLog (Anyone have a better word for STOre, that starts w/ an L?) SSSSouthpath = STO ==== +----------------------------------------------+ | Fri, 19.9.03 10:50 a.m. +1200 (NZT) | +----------------------------------------------+ in message ID <5oqab.759$1l5.692@reader1.news.jippii.net> : > > > The funny thing is that with the VAR menu showing you need > > > to press *left* shift then the variable, to store the > > > command-line or level 1 in the variable. > > Yep, for some reason I expected rs to do the STO. rs sort > > of points into the machine. And ls for the RCL as it points > > from inside to outside the machine. > > I've always remembered the shift keys as: > > RRRRight = RRRRCL > > LLLLeft = LLLLog (Anyone have a better word for STOre, that starts w/ an > L?) > SSSSouthpath = STO It is fine if I *imagine* the variables stored on the LHS of the machine!! ;-) Yes, after all ls & rs are located on the LHS. And, look even the VAR key itself is on the LHS. So the VAR is to the left of level 1. I should be right now :) Alternatively, where I live the loft is my main storage area, .... so LLLLeft=Loft=STO :) Also that right pointing triangle for the algebraic STO is sort of in harmony with a left-shift for ReversePN store ;-) -- Tony Hutchins Wellington New Zealand #270 One who digs a hole for another may fall in himself. Russian Proverb ==== > That's because the calculator is built for algebraic logic users. We > RPN/RPL old hats didn't need to be reminded where the STO key was, nor of > what it did. > Don't disconcider me, but I have a HP20S and the STO does not have a triangle and it works very well. Arnaud ==== Have you tried to use the Algebraic STO: |> ? I mean in a RPL program or command line... ==== Matt Kernal schrieb: > > >>>>The funny thing is that with the VAR menu showing you need >>>>to press *left* shift then the variable, to store the >>>>command-line or level 1 in the variable. > > >>Yep, for some reason I expected rs to do the STO. rs sort >>of points into the machine. And ls for the RCL as it points >>from inside to outside the machine. > > > I've always remembered the shift keys as: > > RRRRight = RRRRCL > > LLLLeft = LLLLog (Anyone have a better word for STOre, that starts w/ an L?) > > Matt ==== I don't know the 20S. I'm only talking about the 49G, and certainly don't intend to disconsider any algebraic logic user, just HP's bias for algebraic, despite their statement that we are the kings of the RPN/L world! > That's because the calculator is built for algebraic logic users. We > RPN/RPL old hats didn't need to be reminded where the STO key was, nor of > what it did. > Don't disconcider me, but I have a HP20S and the STO does not have a > triangle and it works very well. Arnaud ==== > I don't know the 20S. I'm only talking about the 49G, and certainly don't > intend to disconsider any algebraic logic user, just HP's bias for > algebraic, despite their statement that we are the kings of the RPN/L > world! > The 20s is a great little calc, it has all you expect from a basic scientific calc plus numerical integration and solver, very basic complex and matrix functionality, extremely clear segment display,99 steps programming... I love it. Its only drawback is that it is algebraic. I got it to lend to my colleagues at work. It would be great if it supported both RPN and algebric. Arnaud ==== > >> Irritating, isn't it? This has always driven me nuts about the >> hp48 and 49. I have the same problem with the keystroke sequence >> for unit conversions. > > > Looking at my HP48SX: The left shift key is red. So red for writing into a > variable. This might be the design decision they took? On later models this > doesn't hold anymore, I think. > > Robert > version of the rationale behind the shift key functionality of the soft key assignments for variables. In page 84 of his book (verbatim): ... To help you remember which shift is which, observe that the shifted menu key operations roughly match those of the shifted STO key: [RS] STO performs RCL, like the right-shifted menu key; and [LS] STO executes DEFINE, which is a type of storing. Where [RS] and [LS] are right-shift and left-shift, respectively. The above, of course, refers to the HP-48S series. I guess HP just carried over that standard in machines released after the venerable HP-48S series. I've used these models since that one first came out and have never had problems with the shifted-functionality of soft-key variables. ==== +----------------------------------------------+ | Sat, 20.9.03 4:25 p.m. +1200 (NZT) | +----------------------------------------------+ in message ID <3F6BCF44.5020805@yahoo.com> : > ... To help you remember which shift is which, observe > that the> of the shifted STO key: >> [LS] STO> > Where [RS] and [LS] are right-shift and left-shift, > respectively. The above, of course, refers to the HP-48S > series. Yup it's the *opposite* on the HP49, the RCL is shifted to the left above the STO, and CUT is to the right. I wonder what Bill would say about that? > I guess HP just carried over that standard in machines > released after the venerable HP-48S series. -- Tony Hutchins Wellington New Zealand #31 I'm having an out of money experience. ==== how about LLLLeft = LLLoad ? ==== -=[ Wed, 1.10.03 10:20 p.m. +1200 (NZT) ]=- in message ID <742c3942.0309302122.669dd046@posting.google.com> : > how about > LLLLeft = LLLoad ? Not bad! I since came to realise that for me LLLeft means LLLook out, you might be erasing a program that you haven't backed up!- you will have nothing LLLeft Basically the old value in the variable will be overwritten - almost as if it does disappear outside the machine, to the left :) -- Tony Hutchins Wellington New Zealand #156 An imaginary ailment is worse than a disease. Yiddish Proverb ==== > in message ID <742c3942.0309302122.669dd046@posting.google.com> : > >>how about >>LLLLeft = LLLoad ? > > Not bad! > > I since came to realise that for me LLLeft means LLLook out, > you might be erasing a program that you haven't backed up!- > you will have nothing LLLeft > Basically the old value in the variable will be overwritten - > almost as if it does disappear outside the machine, to the > left :) LLLook out is good advice for the shortcuts to store/recall while in the VAR menu. I've been burned more than once using Left-shift when I should have used Right-shift. But it's such a great shortcut I keep using it =:-) I just do it slowly now. You can recover after a mistaken store from the keyboard if you _immediately_ perform LASTARG STO LASTARG. (LASTARG is labeled ANS on the 49G -- left-shift Enter.) -- posted at various times over the years by John Meyers, Joe Horn, and others, but bears repeating for new victims Tom ==== -=[ Thu, 2.10.03 2:59 p.m. +1200 (NZT) ]=- in message ID : > LLLook out is good advice for the shortcuts to store/recall > while in the VAR menu. I've been burned more than once > using Left-shift when I should have used Right-shift. > But it's such a great shortcut I keep using it =:-) I just > do it slowly now. > You can recover after a mistaken store from the keyboard if > you _immediately_ perform LASTARG STO LASTARG. (LASTARG is > labeled ANS on the 49G -- left-shift Enter.) I tested this and it workd great - amazing how it digs out the old value with LASTARG!!! > -- posted at various times over the years by John > Meyers, Joe Horn, and others, but bears repeating > for new victims Hehe. Sure does ;-) -- Tony Hutchins Wellington New Zealand ==== > LLLook out is good advice for the shortcuts to store/recall > while in the VAR menu. I've been burned more than once using > Left-shift when I should have used Right-shift. But it's such > a great shortcut I keep using it =:-) I just do it slowly now. slowly is good advice. I try to get my bearings before ing or ing an object, because as you said I've been burned.... > You can recover after a mistaken store from the keyboard if > you _immediately_ perform LASTARG STO LASTARG. (LASTARG is > labeled ANS on the 49G -- left-shift Enter.) > -- posted at various times over the years by John Meyers, Joe > Horn, and others, but bears repeating for new victims I didn't know you could do this! It really works! How did I miss this? Matt > > Tom ==== This calculator model is definitely needed and fills a real niche. But why is it so HIDEOUS? Why couldn't HP give us something like the classic 42S or 32siII? These models have a most excellent design. YUCK. ==== Agreed. I'd like them to put the 42S back in production, without any design changes... Just so the prices come back down to where they were originally ;-) This calculator model is definitely needed and fills a real niche. But why > is it so HIDEOUS? Why couldn't HP give us something like the classic 42S > or 32siII? These models have a most excellent design. YUCK. ==== Apparently they are trying to make it look like a cell phone. I suppose they think it will be more appealing to younger buyers. Tom Scott ==== Why must every calculator be battleship ugly like the old classic calcs? It seems like people on this board are far too stuck in the past. You may have goten accustomed to the old look, but face it, it was not too great looking.... This calculator model is definitely needed and fills a real niche. But why > is it so HIDEOUS? Why couldn't HP give us something like the classic 42S > or 32siII? These models have a most excellent design. YUCK. ==== Your opinion, pal ... > Why must every calculator be battleship ugly like the old classic calcs? It > seems like people on this board are far too stuck in the past. You may have > goten accustomed to the old look, but face it, it was not too great > looking.... > > This calculator model is definitely needed and fills a real niche. But why > is it so HIDEOUS? Why couldn't HP give us something like the classic 42S > or 32siII? These models have a most excellent design. > > YUCK. > > ==== I thought tail fins went out in the 50's. If my dog was as ugly as this calculator I would shave it's butt and teach it to walk backwards. > Apparently they are trying to make it look like a cell phone. I > suppose they think it will be more appealing to younger buyers. > > Tom Scott ==== Sure, maybe the old designs could stand some freshening, but the 33s is not an improvement. It is not suitable for a calculator at all. > Why must every calculator be battleship ugly like the old classic calcs? ==== De gustibus non est disputandum -- John Miller If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles. -Doug Larson ==== I just want to try to get discussions moving in a positive direction... Lets get ideas out on what color schemes, examples of what people like, etc. something other than just its bad or I hate change Give HP or other manufacturers specific ideas to build on or incorporate.... Obviously this is only a suggestion. TI or Sharp or Casio has never learned to put out a calculator with positive tactile feedback (well TI did do it with early generation calcs in earlier times but never lately..) Despite their misteps HP seems to be trying to address some of the issues: Offering tactile response to keystrokes Offering RPN or RPL functionality Location of the Enter key is an issue for all of us who are used to the old location, but if you were never exposed to having it in the upper left, I doubt it would be any different ergonomically being in the lower right corner. The distance traveled is not much different.. it is just what we have become accustomed to... > Sure, maybe the old designs could stand some freshening, but the 33s is not an > improvement. It is not suitable for a calculator at all. > Why must every calculator be battleship ugly like the old classic calcs? ==== > Why must every calculator be battleship ugly like the old classic calcs? It > seems like people on this board are far too stuck in the past. You may have > goten accustomed to the old look, but face it, it was not too great > looking.... A few points... (1) Battleships are not ugly. They are massive, powerful, utilitarian vessels designed to perform a specific function when operated by skilled and trained personnel. They look perfectly suited to their purpose -- and that makes them beautiful. The same is true of the classic HP calculators. (2) The age of a design has nothing to do with its value. A Bach fugue or a Beethoven sonata -- or Victorian architectural design -- will be as elegant and beautiful in a thousand years as they are today. (3) I first saw an HP-41CX a few years ago, many years after they were out of production and long *after* I had seen newer designs. My impression was, Wow, HP used to make great-looking calculators; I wonder why the new stuff is so ugly? So I wasn't accustomed to the old look; I fell in love with the old look because it looks like what a scientific calculator is supposed to be: a highly technical piece of equipment intended for serious use by people skilled in its use, not a piece of trendy consumer electronics for the average, technically-illiterate person. -- Myers, Silverlock ==== > Location of the Enter key is an issue for all of us who are used to the old > location, but if you were never exposed to having it in the upper left, I > doubt it would be any different ergonomically being in the lower right > corner. The distance traveled is not much different.. it is just what we > have become accustomed to... I prefer the old [ENTER] key because the larger key is easier to find by touch when I'm not looking at the keyboard, and the large size proclaims proudly that This is an RPN machine! Making the key smaller and moving it to the bottom right obviously is an attempt to make it look more like a TI algebraic calculator. HP used to consider their products to be superior to everyone else'sÊand insisted that customers adapt to *them* rather than trying to adapt their products to appeal to less discerning customers. I liked them much better when their attitude was, If you're smart you'll do it OUR way, and if you don't like our way, you don't deserve to be part of our exclusive clientele. -- Myers, Silverlock ==== Location of the Enter key is an issue for all of us who are used to the old > location, but if you were never exposed to having it in the upper left, I > doubt it would be any different ergonomically being in the lower right > corner. The distance traveled is not much different.. it is just what we > have become accustomed to... What is important is the size. And it must not be on top but in the middle of the keyboard. Anything on the edges is a bit harder to press when you are holding the calc in your hand. Arnaud ==== If you're smart you'll do it OUR way, and if you don't like our way, you don't deserve to be part of our exclusive clientele. Thats great if you don't want to make money at an endeavor, but reality demands otherwise.... > Location of the Enter key is an issue for all of us who are used to the old > location, but if you were never exposed to having it in the upper left, I > doubt it would be any different ergonomically being in the lower right > corner. The distance traveled is not much different.. it is just what we > have become accustomed to... I prefer the old [ENTER] key because the larger key is easier to find by > touch when I'm not looking at the keyboard, and the large size proclaims > proudly that This is an RPN machine! Making the key smaller and > moving it to the bottom right obviously is an attempt to make it look > more like a TI algebraic calculator. HP used to consider their products > to be superior to everyone else's and insisted that customers adapt > to *them* rather than trying to adapt their products to appeal to less > discerning customers. I liked them much better when their attitude was, > If you're smart you'll do it OUR way, and if you don't like our way, > you don't deserve to be part of our exclusive clientele. -- > Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise > fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give > | your pelt to the trapper. > e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== > Why must every calculator be battleship ugly like the old classic calcs? It > seems like people on this board are far too stuck in the past. You may have > goten accustomed to the old look, but face it, it was not too great > looking.... A few points... (1) Battleships are not ugly. They are massive, powerful, utilitarian > vessels designed to perform a specific function when operated by skilled > and trained personnel. They look perfectly suited to their purpose -- > and that makes them beautiful. The same is true of the classic HP > calculators. > There is no reason to not embrace change except to lose out at opportunity.... > (2) The age of a design has nothing to do with its value. A Bach fugue > or a Beethoven sonata -- or Victorian architectural design -- will be > as elegant and beautiful in a thousand years as they are today. Try to sell a Bach fugue or Beethoven sonata to compete with pop music. Good luck! (Obviously we know which is better musically, but again you have to sell to succeed) (3) I first saw an HP-41CX a few years ago, many years after they > were out of production and long *after* I had seen newer designs. > My impression was, Wow, HP used to make great-looking calculators; I > wonder why the new stuff is so ugly? So I wasn't accustomed to the > old look; I fell in love with the old look because it looks like > what a scientific calculator is supposed to be: a highly technical > piece of equipment intended for serious use by people skilled in its > use, not a piece of trendy consumer electronics for the average, > technically-illiterate person. > I did not say I didn't like some of the old styles.... > -- > Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise > fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give > | your pelt to the trapper. > e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== > If you're smart you'll do it OUR way, and if you don't like our way, you > don't deserve to be part of our exclusive clientele. > Thats great if you don't want to make money at an endeavor, but reality > demands otherwise.... When you are known as the company that makes, by far, the highest quality products in the field, you can act like that. Now that HP has given up that title in the name of short term profits, they have to pander to the low-brow consumer market. But it didn't have to be that way. -- -Joshua Belsky jjbelsky@yahoo.com http://belsky.net ==== The only companies that have been able to act like that have all gone out of business and always will. > If you're smart you'll do it OUR way, and if you don't like our way, you > don't deserve to be part of our exclusive clientele. > Thats great if you don't want to make money at an endeavor, but reality > demands otherwise.... When you are known as the company that makes, by far, the highest quality > products in the field, you can act like that. Now that HP has given up > that title in the name of short term profits, they have to pander to the > low-brow consumer market. But it didn't have to be that way. > -- > -Joshua Belsky > jjbelsky@yahoo.com > http://belsky.net > ==== Taste in shape and color are so personal... What do you think of the HP38G :-) I am a very classic and traditional person (but I still prefer the 48GX to the 41, sorry), and although the 49G+ looked at first (looking at the picture) to goldy, I now love it! not only is taste personal, but it can also change a lot over short period of times. > Why must every calculator be battleship ugly like the old classic calcs? It > seems like people on this board are far too stuck in the past. You may have > goten accustomed to the old look, but face it, it was not too great > looking.... A few points... (1) Battleships are not ugly. They are massive, powerful, utilitarian > vessels designed to perform a specific function when operated by skilled > and trained personnel. They look perfectly suited to their purpose -- > and that makes them beautiful. The same is true of the classic HP > calculators. (2) The age of a design has nothing to do with its value. A Bach fugue > or a Beethoven sonata -- or Victorian architectural design -- will be > as elegant and beautiful in a thousand years as they are today. (3) I first saw an HP-41CX a few years ago, many years after they > were out of production and long *after* I had seen newer designs. > My impression was, Wow, HP used to make great-looking calculators; I > wonder why the new stuff is so ugly? So I wasn't accustomed to the > old look; I fell in love with the old look because it looks like > what a scientific calculator is supposed to be: a highly technical > piece of equipment intended for serious use by people skilled in its > use, not a piece of trendy consumer electronics for the average, > technically-illiterate person. -- > Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise > fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give > | your pelt to the trapper. > e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== Any company ? Mercedes Benz seems to be doing just fine. There will always be a market for quality products that a company can make a healthy profit supplying. The down side is that such a company will never gain a large market share. > The only companies that have been able to act like that have all gone out of > business and always will. > If you're smart you'll do it OUR way, and if you don't like our way, > you > > don't deserve to be part of our exclusive clientele. > > Thats great if you don't want to make money at an endeavor, but reality > > demands otherwise.... > > When you are known as the company that makes, by far, the highest quality > products in the field, you can act like that. Now that HP has given up > that title in the name of short term profits, they have to pander to the > low-brow consumer market. But it didn't have to be that way. > > -- > -Joshua Belsky > jjbelsky@yahoo.com > http://belsky.net > > ==== > Taste in shape and color are so personal... > What do you think of the HP38G :-) The design of the cover was clever! I'll give it that! -- -Joshua Belsky jjbelsky@yahoo.com http://belsky.net ==== > The only companies that have been able to act like that have all gone out of > business and always will. So when did Rolls-Royce, Rolex, etc. go out of business? -- Myers, Silverlock ==== >> (2) The age of a design has nothing to do with its value. A Bach fugue >> or a Beethoven sonata -- or Victorian architectural design -- will be >> as elegant and beautiful in a thousand years as they are today. > Try to sell a Bach fugue or Beethoven sonata to compete with pop music. > Good luck! (Obviously we know which is better musically, but again you have > to sell to succeed) It depends on your definition of success. I knew a woman many years ago who opened a bookstore. She said she didn't care if it ever made a dime of profit, as long as it made enough to pay the bills and her employees' salaries. She just wanted the fun of running a bookstore. More than 30 years later the store is still there, owned by the same family and in the same building; it hasn't grown or expanded, but it hasn't gone out of business either. I consider it a success. Somehow the London Symphony Orchestra, the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields, the Eroica Trio, etc. seem to be able to make a living. Perhaps it's because they don't compete with pop music but just do what they love and trust that there will be people who appreciate and support their work. That's the biggest difference I see in HP these days: It's clearly run by people who love money rather than by people who love engineering. I used to know some HP people (not in the calculator division, though). They seemed to regard HP as a sort of engineers' playground. Not once did I ever hear them brag about how big the company was or how much money it made; only about how much they enjoyed working there and how proud they were of their products and their reputation. Impressing other scientists and engineers was more important to them than impressing Wall Street analysts. Fortunately, at *that* time HP had managers who were sympathetic to that viewpoint. Now the moneygrubbers control everything there. -- Myers, Silverlock ==== > Taste in shape and color are so personal... > What do you think of the HP38G :-) I've never paid any attention to the 38G because it's algebraic. Personally, I wish HP didn't even *make* algebraic calculators. I think their attitude should be: We made our reputation with RPN, we've always said it was superior, and we'll *never* back down from that! I have a great deal of respect for companies that push their own inventions to the exclusion of all else, and no respect at all for companies that try to copy everyone else. > I am a very classic and traditional person (but I still prefer the 48GX to > the 41, sorry), and although the 49G+ looked at first (looking at the > picture) to goldy, I now love it! The 49G+ is an improvement over other recent HP products, but it still falls short of being good enough. I might be able to get used to the color eventually, but the tiny [ENTER] key will keep me from ever being able to accept it. > not only is taste personal, but it can also change a lot over short period > of times. For normal people, perhaps. I expected scientists and engineers to be immune to such things. -- Myers, Silverlock ==== not only is taste personal, but it can also change a lot over short period >>of times. > For normal people, perhaps. I expected scientists and engineers to > be immune to such things. But you wouldn't buy a 49G because of it's appearance, location and size of the ENTER key, and keyboard layout in general? I guess that you're telling us that you're neither a scientist nor an engineer. -- James ==== > I've never paid any attention to the 38G because it's algebraic. The 38G is an exception. It's algebraic because it was aimed at the high-school market, and its design is ugly (though robust) because it was actually a 48G which had to be sold at a lower price. It was the last innovative project at Corvallis: a very handy history stack, compact e-lessons, fast, very easy to use and customise. And its RPL OS introduced some terrific features: topic outer loop, the aplet structure, new choose boxes, etc. In more than one sense, it's the last achievement of the golden years. http://library.hp41.org/LibView.cfm?Command=Document&ItemID=187 proud of this machine? ... ;-) > Personally, I wish HP didn't even *make* algebraic calculators. I'm glad they made the 18C and the 71B, though. -- ==== > Taste in shape and color are so personal... > What do you think of the HP38G :-) The 38G is what you get when you tell an inexperienced industrial designer to make a box with keys and a display. It has almost no style whatsoever. ==== >> I've never paid any attention to the 38G because it's algebraic. > The 38G is an exception. It's algebraic because it was aimed at the > high-school market, and its design is ugly (though robust) because > it was actually a 48G which had to be sold at a lower price. It was My problem with that approach is that I think HP should have been trying to turn high school students into RPN converts rather than supplying them with algebraic calculators. The best way to do that would be to make inexpensive RPN calcs available to elementary school students so they would already be RPN addicts by the time they're ready for the more expensive machines in high school. Suppose HP had made simple four-function RPN calcs that sold for $5.95 in grocery stores and Wal-Mart, and maybe donated a few million of them to schools in 1990. Wouldn't there be a lot of high school students now who wouldn't consider buying anything but an RPN calculator? HP could be making both converts AND money. ==== > >not only is taste personal, but it can also change a lot over short period >>>of times. >> For normal people, perhaps. I expected scientists and engineers to >> be immune to such things. > But you wouldn't buy a 49G because of it's appearance, location and size > of the ENTER key, and keyboard layout in general? I guess that you're > telling us that you're neither a scientist nor an engineer. As a matter of fact, I'm not. I'm a programmer/DBA/sysadmin with an interest in science and mathematics. Much of my objection to the current trends at HP is the blatant attempt to pander to current styles and tastes. They seem to be saying, We need to shed our 'geeks and nerds' image so we can appeal to regular people. I think they should be trying to turn *everyone* into geeks and nerds -- or at the very least, catering specifically to those who *want* to be geeks and nerds. It's something I see throughout society. When personal computers started becoming popular, some of my colleagues were skeptical about their value, but I was very optimistic. I thought that a computer in every home meant that nearly everyone would become programmers and learn to *think* like programmers. It never occurred to me that computer manufacturers would dumb-down user interfaces and try to make computers into appliances for ordinary people, rather than forcing everyone to become technically literate. But that's what happened, and instead of ending up with a society of logicians we got a bunch of idiots who think it's funny to brag that they can't figure out how to program a VCR. I expected that at least HP would be better than that, but they aren't. Look, we took away all those scary-looking machines and gave you nice bright colors and designs that look like cell phones, so you can fit in with all the other mindless dweebs. ==== Apple, too! > The only companies that have been able to act like that have all gone out of > business and always will. > If you're smart you'll do it OUR way, and if you don't like our way, > you > > don't deserve to be part of our exclusive clientele. > > Thats great if you don't want to make money at an endeavor, but reality > > demands otherwise.... > > When you are known as the company that makes, by far, the highest quality > products in the field, you can act like that. Now that HP has given up > that title in the name of short term profits, they have to pander to the > low-brow consumer market. But it didn't have to be that way. > > -- 0 ==== In message <4FZdb.11013$T65.489@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, Wayne Brown >> The only companies that have been able to act like that have all gone out of >> business and always will. So when did Rolls-Royce, Rolex, etc. go out of business? Rolls-Royce actually did go bankrupt in the 70s, but not for this reason. :-) -- Bruce Horrocks Surrey England ==== In message <6FZdb.11015$T65.9847@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, Wayne Brown >I've never paid any attention to the 38G because it's algebraic. The 38G grew on me. It looks odd at first sight, but the keyboard colours are extremely legible in nearly all lighting conditions. Similarly, the working environment seems a bit strange at first but again, it grows on you and, after a while, it becomes obvious that a great deal of thought went into it. I quite like the Aplet environment where each can be saved as a copy, complete with all of its data. I would quite like to see such a feature on the new models: the ability to save the state of the calculator into a reserved area and start a new state from a blank or a template in order to start a new calculation or sequence of calculations. The previous one can then be returned to when required. Maybe someone can write a program to do this: with the ability to insert a large flash card, there should be plenty of space to archive and restore everything as required? -- Bruce Horrocks Surrey England ==== >> Taste in shape and color are so personal... >> What do you think of the HP38G :-) > > The 38G is what you get when you tell an inexperienced industrial > designer to make a box with keys and a display. It has almost no > style whatsoever. -- ==== > I quite like the Aplet environment where each can be saved as a copy, > complete with all of its data. I would quite like to see such a feature > on the new models: the ability to save the state of the calculator > into a reserved area and start a new state from a blank or a template > in order to start a new calculation or sequence of calculations. The > previous one can then be returned to when required. That's an interesting idea, and I can see how it would be useful. I sometimes do a more limited variation of your idea on my 48GX by capturing whatever is on the stack in a list, storing it in a variable, and then doing a backup to a port on my 2mb card. After that I can clear memory and work on something else, and get back to my previous work later by restoring from the backup. -- Myers, Silverlock ==== > I quite like the Aplet environment where each can be saved as a copy, > complete with all of its data. I would quite like to see such a feature > on the new models: the ability to save the state of the calculator > into a reserved area and start a new state from a blank or a template > in order to start a new calculation or sequence of calculations. The > previous one can then be returned to when required. That's an interesting idea, and I can see how it would be useful. > I sometimes do a more limited variation of your idea on my 48GX by > capturing whatever is on the stack in a list, storing it in a variable, > and then doing a backup to a port on my 2mb card. After that I can > clear memory and work on something else, and get back to my previous > work later by restoring from the backup. (I've been waiting for this years...Horrocks Brown) For some temporary calculations I some times do HALT then CLEAR and just start calculating. When I'm done I may save the result in a variable, but the after UNDO I get my previous stack contents back ==== > > > > >> > > > >>>> not only is taste personal, but it can also change a lot over short period >>>> of times. >>> >>> >>> >>> For normal people, perhaps. I expected scientists and engineers to >>> be immune to such things. > > > >> But you wouldn't buy a 49G because of it's appearance, location and size >> of the ENTER key, and keyboard layout in general? I guess that you're >> telling us that you're neither a scientist nor an engineer. > > > > As a matter of fact, I'm not. I'm a programmer/DBA/sysadmin with an > interest in science and mathematics. Me neither, I'm just a metrology technician with somewhat similar interests. Any science that I've accomplished is strictly amateur and for personal interests. Being that I'm acquainted with many automotive industry engineers, I'd generally prefer not to be mistaken for such an engineer. I'd say that, among other things, I'm interested in understanding how and why things work (or don't work) and how to make things work. > Much of my objection to the current trends at HP is the blatant attempt > to pander to current styles and tastes. They seem to be saying, We need > to shed our 'geeks and nerds' image so we can appeal to regular people. > I think they should be trying to turn *everyone* into geeks and nerds -- > or at the very least, catering specifically to those who *want* to be > geeks and nerds. > > It's something I see throughout society. When personal computers > started becoming popular, some of my colleagues were skeptical about > their value, but I was very optimistic. I thought that a computer in > every home meant that nearly everyone would become programmers and learn > to *think* like programmers. It never occurred to me that computer > manufacturers would dumb-down user interfaces and try to make computers > into appliances for ordinary people, rather than forcing everyone to > become technically literate. But that's what happened, and instead > of ending up with a society of logicians we got a bunch of idiots who > think it's funny to brag that they can't figure out how to program a VCR. > I expected that at least HP would be better than that, but they aren't. > Look, we took away all those scary-looking machines and gave you nice > bright colors and designs that look like cell phones, so you can fit in > with all the other mindless dweebs. I see your points. But how about automotive technology? Back in the '50s and '60s, quite a few amateurs were perfectly competent to tear down the engine and rebuild it. How many could do so with today's cars? My impression is that in the first decade or so of mass-produced automobiles, it was practically a necessity to have a competent mechanic available whenever a car was driven. Should we require an advanced course in automotive repair before we allow a person to drive? No, cars have been dumbed down; you don't need to understand much about how the powertrain works to be able to drive one. Maybe that's a bad thing; certainly traffic would be less of a problem if all drivers were required to know in detail how and why their cars worked. Bring back the Detroit Urban Railway. Another issue would be the image of the current young geeks and nerds. If engineers, technicians, and programmers qualify as such, some of them appear downright outlandish to me. But just because a guy wears an earring or cuts his hair weird, that doesn't mean that he can't do his job just fine; I don't much care how he looks as long as it doesn't hurt his job performance. Maybe HP is trying to appeal to some of these young geeks and nerds. I don't particularly like the colour sheme of the 49G. It's somewhat difficult to read the faceplate, and yes, it strikes me as being rather glitzy. I'd prefer a large centrally located ENTER key. But those are relatively minor issues. I don't like most of the choose boxes and input forms, so I avoid using them; most tasks can be accomplished just fine without them. The ALG mode is nearly imcomprehensible to me, so I don't use it. But the 49G is still a fine tool with some advantages over the 48 series. And this may be foolish, but it's also fun to play with. If someone says: My old calculator does what I need just fine, so I'll stick with what I'm using., that seems perfectly reasonable to me. If a youngster chooses a 49G because it looks cool, man, I'd say that he's making a good choice for a foolish reason. But we can expect some foolishness in the young. For a professional adult to base his decision on which tool to use mostly on cosmetic and minor functional issues seems to me to be foolish, without the excuse of being too young to know better. -- James ==== -- ==== The real enter key issue re: the 33S is that it's not in the same place as the 48GII/49G+ (right bottom for new 48/49, and just to the left of right bottom in 33S). For the most part, smacking an RPN HP on the big key near the center got you ENTER - now data entry seems to be more along the lines of a cell phone, where keys are strewn haphazardly across the device in whatever layout struck the designer as interesting and different. Also - anyone who's owned a Nokia phone with the stupid chevron keypad design will tell you the 33S keyboard will stink. I've sworn off (and at) Nokia phones until they produce something that's not just a Barbie fashion accessory. Had a 49G - sold it. Butt-ugly and a human factors disaster (though a totally admirable calc otherwise). Given that the 33S is a 'do everything for everyone' calc handicapped by even worse design, I wonder if we'll see it dominate the Texas Calc competitions as intended (otherwise, why the dedicated X^3 key?). Gotta go - the back-up 32SII just got dropped off by UPS. ==== Well Mercedes is now owned by Chrysler..... And I doubt if any of these companies took such an arrogant attitude towards their customers... > The only companies that have been able to act like that have all gone out of > business and always will. So when did Rolls-Royce, Rolex, etc. go out of business? -- > Wayne Brown | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise > fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give > | your pelt to the trapper. > e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== > Well Mercedes is now owned by Chrysler..... Around here, most people would say that Chrysler is now owned by Mercedes. I think that it was officially a merger rather than a purchase. -- James ==== > Well Mercedes is now owned by Chrysler..... > And I doubt if any of these companies took such an arrogant attitude towards > their customers... BMW's iDrive on the 7-series seems to take such an attitude. The iDrive is the RPN of automotive controls; it is better, but it isn't intuitive. Many people have been having problems with it because they think it is too hard to use. The thing is a single knob that can be moved around in a variety of ways which controls most of the car and responds via haptics. Sounds good to me :) -- -Joshua Belsky jjbelsky@yahoo.com http://belsky.net ==== It was a merger according to Chrysler and Mercedes. After a while all the Chrylser senior execs went away and were replaced by Germans. Now some investors are claiming it really wasn't a merger, but an acquisition by Mercedes of Chrysler and are suing. Very Murky. Additionally most business analysts say the merger has been a big mistake financially, and the result is destroying the resulting company. It has gotten so bad that Mercedes has been having quality problems with their luxury cars. > Around here, most people would say that Chrysler is now owned by > Mercedes. > > I think that it was officially a merger rather than a purchase. ==== I will purchase a 49+, with its crappy keyboard as soon as it is available in the states. Then, I will purchase the next new and improved version when it comes available. Why? If we don't, then the Midevil Lit majors, the brilliance that runs HP, will decide that there truely is no market for their calculator products, and they will kill the division AGAIN! I don't know about the rest of you, but my 48GX is getting a little long in the tooth. I would like to replace it with another quality product that uses RPN. I would like to see HP develop one. It may not be the 49+, but it could be the next version... provided that HP sees a market for it... ==== > Why? If we don't, then the Midevil Lit majors, the brilliance that runs > HP, will decide that there truely is no market for their calculator > products, and they will kill the division AGAIN! Good point but what if HP says, Gee we can sell a lot and not have to worry about Quality Control so why bother with it? Tom Lake ==== I dont have any need to buy an HP49G Plus. In my work, Safety Enginnering, I work with norms,laws and standards. In graduation I used to make calculus, solve formulas and use HP in tests, but now I dont need to do many calculus. When I buy one it will be for a simple reason: HP48/49 are my hobby. Carlos > Why? If we don't, then the Midevil Lit majors, the brilliance that runs > HP, will decide that there truely is no market for their calculator > products, and they will kill the division AGAIN! > > Good point but what if HP says, Gee we can sell a lot and not have to worry > about Quality Control so why bother with it? > > Tom Lake ==== > When I buy one it will be for a simple reason: HP48/49 are my hobby. Me too. I don't really need another calculator, but it's so fun! I'm a ==== Why buy another? If there are any problems, ie with keyboard, just send it back to HP and they will send a replacement. > I will purchase a 49+, with its crappy keyboard as soon as it is available > in the states. Then, I will purchase the next new and improved version > when it comes available. Why? If we don't, then the Midevil Lit majors, the brilliance that runs > HP, will decide that there truely is no market for their calculator > products, and they will kill the division AGAIN! I don't know about the rest of you, but my 48GX is getting a little long in > the tooth. I would like to replace it with another quality product that > uses RPN. I would like to see HP develop one. It may not be the 49+, but > it could be the next version... provided that HP sees a market for it... > ==== Why? If we don't, then the Midevil Lit majors, the brilliance that runs > HP, will decide that there truely is no market for their calculator > products, and they will kill the division AGAIN! > You may not like the current CEO of Compaq, but think twice before you disparage persons who majored in medieval literature. I was an english literature major, with a medieval focus, and I earn my salary as an engineer. And there are quite a few extraordinarily brilliant scientists and engineers out there who, like me, majored in the arts before settling on a technical occupation. In fact I daresay that one cannot be a truly great scientist without being open to the arts. Also, learn to spell medieval. You sound so stupid--at least I can spell algebra as well as I can do it. Of course, I must also allow for the possibility that you purposely spelled Midevil to connote that interest in the medieval period is evil. Even then, it still sounds stupid--as there is nothing inherently evil in having that interest. Another thought: why don't you pick up a copy of Geoffrey Chaucer's Treatise on the Astrolabe? You will gain an appreciation for the technical documentation of the 14th century. Bill ==== > > When I buy one it will be for a simple reason: HP48/49 are my hobby. > > Me too. I don't really need another calculator, but it's so fun! I'm a ... and slide-rules? :-) ==== I have a couple, yes! ;-) > > When I buy one it will be for a simple reason: HP48/49 are my hobby. > > Me too. I don't really need another calculator, but it's so fun! I'm a ... and slide-rules? :-) ==== I'm excited to report that a WikiWikiWeb focusing on HP Calculators is now available online: http://www.hydrix.com/wiki/ (If you don't know what a WikiWikiWeb is, just click on the link above, and discover for yourself, it's a fascinating concept) It's only a very basic site at the moment, but hopefully with the help of those knowledgeable and interested, it will grow to be a useful site to all HP Calculator users and programmers. Anybody can participate, don't be shy! I don't intend for it to compete with other useful sites (hpcalc, hpmuseum, this newsgroup, etc.), but to complement them. I hope you will like it. Gerald. ==== > > I'm excited to report that a WikiWikiWeb focusing on HP Calculators is > now available online: > http://www.hydrix.com/wiki/ --- J.Manrique L.97pez de la Fuente Users Club from Gij.97n 1077 HPCC Member ==== > http://www.hydrix.com/wiki/ (If you don't know what a WikiWikiWeb is, just click on the link > above, and discover for yourself, it's a fascinating concept) Wikied! :-) -- Steve Sousa ==== looks very nice.... could evolve to an on-line AUR containg all the commands with descriptions and eventually also examples... but if I understand it right, everybody is able to change the description of a command... for example the command DUP is descriped as follows: Duplicates the object at the top of the stack. a.. ob ? ob ob This looks and sounds nice but instead of the description Duplicates the object at the top of the stack., I would prefer the words Duplicates the contents of stack level 1. Whether my preferred comment is more correct than the existing comment or not is a question about personal taste... sometimes. If everybody has the posibility to change these descriptions... don't we risk that some descriptions will be changed from a to b to a to b to..... going on forever and forever...??? Looking forward to read some comments on this... Martin I'm excited to report that a WikiWikiWeb focusing on HP Calculators is now > available online: > http://www.hydrix.com/wiki/ (If you don't know what a WikiWikiWeb is, just click on the link above, and > discover for yourself, it's a fascinating concept) It's only a very basic site at the moment, but hopefully with the help of > those knowledgeable and interested, it will grow to be a useful site to all > HP Calculator users and programmers. Anybody can participate, don't be shy! I don't intend for it to compete with other useful sites (hpcalc, hpmuseum, > this newsgroup, etc.), but to complement them. I hope you will like it. Gerald. ==== > This looks and sounds nice but instead of the description Duplicates > the object at the top of the stack., I would prefer the words > Duplicates the contents of stack level 1. Whether my preferred > comment is more correct than the existing comment or not is a question > about personal taste... sometimes. If everybody has the posibility to > change these descriptions... don't we risk that some descriptions will > be changed from a to b to a to b to..... going on forever and forever...??? > Well, the first time I heard about WikiWiki I was very suspicious that it would turn out to be a complete mess. But if you look at various wikiwiki sites, they are usually all well organized. Despite any intellignet person I'm sure would come up with something that suits everybody. Or in this case, simply write the two definitions alltogether ==== > But if you look at various wikiwiki sites, they are usually all well > organized. Despite any intellignet person I'm sure would come up with > something that suits everybody. > Or in this case, simply write the two definitions alltogether It's funny how Wiki's seem to bring out community responsibility in people. I've seen the same as you. - Ed ==== > [...] Whether my preferred comment is more correct > than the existing comment or not is a question about personal taste... > sometimes. If everybody has the posibility to change these descriptions... > don't we risk that some descriptions will be changed from a to b to a to b > to..... going on forever and forever...??? Yes, it's a risk of wiki... But judging from the success of huge wikis (my preferred one is wikipedia.org), it's never an issue in the end. What could happen after you change this page to what you like? - The original author (that would be me in this particular case) recognises that it's a superior or at least valid change, and accepts it as is. - The page changes back and forth between a couple of definitions. So be it! The definitions are both valid and should help most users at the time they read it. Only the authors are wasting time on one page instead of populating other pages that need work. So you see, it's not a problem. If you don't like a page, change it, wiki wants you to change it! And if you see your own material being changed, take a breath, distance yourself and think hard about it before just reverting to your preferred text. You can even use the page itself for some discussion if you want to argue your point. If possible, I'd like everybody to contribute new material first, as the site is still very empty now... We'll have time to argue about grammar later, don't worry ;-) Gerald. ==== How about we adopt this page for this groups FAQ or is there one for the group already? MC > [...] Whether my preferred comment is more correct > than the existing comment or not is a question about personal taste... > sometimes. If everybody has the posibility to change these descriptions... > don't we risk that some descriptions will be changed from a to b to a to b > to..... going on forever and forever...??? > Yes, it's a risk of wiki... But judging from the success of huge wikis (my > preferred one is wikipedia.org), it's never an issue in the end. What could happen after you change this page to what you like? > - The original author (that would be me in this particular case) recognises > that it's a superior or at least valid change, and accepts it as is. > - The page changes back and forth between a couple of definitions. So be it! > The definitions are both valid and should help most users at the time they > read it. Only the authors are wasting time on one page instead of populating > other pages that need work. So you see, it's not a problem. If you don't like a page, change it, wiki > wants you to change it! And if you see your own material being changed, take > a breath, distance yourself and think hard about it before just reverting to > your preferred text. You can even use the page itself for some discussion if > you want to argue your point. If possible, I'd like everybody to contribute new material first, as the > site is still very empty now... We'll have time to argue about grammar > later, don't worry ;-) Gerald. ==== > How about we adopt this page for this groups FAQ or is there one for the > group already? There's one, quite outdated, though. > Samuel The link to the FAQ is now on wiki's front page, thanks to the generous contributor! I suppose we could ask Andre for permission to transfer the FAQ to the wiki, it would certainly be easier to update it as needed... Gerald. http://www.hydrix.com/wiki ==== > > I'm excited to report that a WikiWikiWeb focusing on HP Calculators is now > available online: > http://www.hydrix.com/wiki/ > This is great news, thank you. To give the SystemRPL section a fast start, I would be willing to upload my entire database onto the Wiki - however, that would mean creating and linking about 6000 files which I am not going to do through the web interface. If there is intrest in getting the database onto the wiki, I would need to know how I can create and upload an entire section. I could not find this information in the help. - Carsten ==== says... > > I'm excited to report that a WikiWikiWeb focusing on HP Calculators is now > available online: > http://www.hydrix.com/wiki/ This is an excellent idea. Wikis that grow up around newsgroups can become invaluable sources of information. One that comes to my mind is AllMyFaqs.com, which was created by frequenters of alt.html. ==== Do any of you have a 128k RAM card you will swap me for a 256k one? doesnt do me much good. ==== > Do any of you have a 128k RAM card you will swap me for a 256k one? > doesnt do me much good. you can be sure it will work fine in Port1)? that way if you ever need to use something else than the MK you will have more memory at hand. The 256KB card will work fine in port 1. I've done so for years without any problems ; even if in theory you shouldn't do it :) ==== The program i mentioned is an excellent one, not only makes library handling easier and more powerful, but also faster. Im in school and use my 49g for physics and chemistry, and have a regular amount of libs (about 30) that i use. The problem i have, is that for chemistry i use a certain amount of libs, and for physics i use a completely different set of libs. Now, with libman, i have to change the library configuration (change the order of the librarys) for each and every time i get a test of a different subject. Its just to uncomfortable to waste time switching back and forth for physics and chemistry. So, i ask, is there any way to switch beetween library configurations (order of appearance on lib menu) in a quick way? TY ==== > The program i mentioned is an excellent one, not only makes library > handling easier and more powerful, but also faster. > Im in school and use my 49g for physics and chemistry, and have a > regular amount of libs (about 30) that i use. The problem i have, is > that for chemistry i use a certain amount of libs, and for physics i > use a completely different set of libs. Now, with libman, i have to > change the library configuration (change the order of the librarys) > for each and every time i get a test of a different subject. Its just > to uncomfortable to waste time switching back and forth for physics > and chemistry. > So, i ask, is there any way to switch beetween library configurations > (order of appearance on lib menu) in a quick way? one of the advantages of Libman is that the LIB key can be used context-sensitive, i.e., the libraries shown on the LIB key depend on the scanned directory. Create 2 directories, PHYS and CHEM, say. First drive into PHYS, choose the CsLIB command and customize the LIB key by means of its menu. Repeat the same in the CHEM directory with your chemistry libs. This creates separate LPAR files in these directories which you can hide if you want. All very similar to the use of PPAR. You may still make a LIB key customization in HOME with a third sample of libs of general character, one side for games etc :-) If you intend to use these directories throughout, I suggest a key assigment with a directory toggler on it, e.g. to rightshift-hold MTH. If the key is hit and you are in HOME/PHYS it sets HOME/CHEM and conversely. Such an assignment is readily programmed. With Keyman, you can such a toggler also attach to longhold +/-. Thus, you then have two different LIB menus with a single key press. Hope this helps Wolfgang ==== Is anyone out there using x48? Anyone familiar with the source? I'd like to see it fixed up to work again on faster processors, but I don't know a whole lot about the saturn processor or how exactly to slow things down. Christoph, maybe you have some advice? In any case, since it's not easy to buy the 48 anymore I'd like to have this working as a backup if mine breaks or is lost. Plus it can be more convenient when working at the computer to use an on-screen calculator. ==== I'd be interested, too, I've only recently acquired an HP48. I found the Windows emulator with libraries older than anything currently installed. I haven't seen the source, but I'd be willing to take a look at it -- provided the functionality is there. > Is anyone out there using x48? Anyone familiar with the source? > > I'd like to see it fixed up to work again on faster processors, but I > don't know a whole lot about the saturn processor or how exactly to slow > things down. Christoph, maybe you have some advice? > > In any case, since it's not easy to buy the 48 anymore I'd like to have > this working as a backup if mine breaks or is lost. Plus it can be more > convenient when working at the computer to use an on-screen calculator. ==== I found the source here [1], and it compiled with only minor changes on my Debian system. It works like a charm except for the timing problem. I think we need to be looking at timer.c, but I'm not sure. I'm looking at 0.4.0 since 0.4.1e has a graphical debugger that doesn't work once things get borked and 0.5.0 beta seems to not have matured. (but maybe it did and I haven't given it a fair try) I figure the changes will apply equally well to all three versions. 1. http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emulators/ > I'd be interested, too, > > I've only recently acquired an HP48. I found the Windows emulator > with libraries older than anything currently installed. > > I haven't seen the source, but I'd be willing to take a look at it > -- provided the functionality is there. > >> Is anyone out there using x48? Anyone familiar with the source? >> >> I'd like to see it fixed up to work again on faster processors, but I >> don't know a whole lot about the saturn processor or how exactly to slow >> things down. Christoph, maybe you have some advice? >> >> In any case, since it's not easy to buy the 48 anymore I'd like to have >> this working as a backup if mine breaks or is lost. Plus it can be more >> convenient when working at the computer to use an on-screen calculator. ==== source: http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/pc/emulators/ And here's the patch to make it compile in linux: diff -urN ../x48-0.4.0.orig/config.h ./config.h --- ../x48-0.4.0.orig/config.h 1995-01-12 04:20:06.000000000 -0700 @@ -29,7 +29,7 @@ /* * Which OS are you on? */ -/* #define UNIX_DEF -DLINUX */ +#define UNIX_DEF -DLINUX /* #define UNIX_DEF -DSOLARIS */ /* #define UNIX_DEF -DSUNOS */ /* #define UNIX_DEF -DIRIX */ diff -urN ../x48-0.4.0.orig/src/timer.c ./src/timer.c --- ../x48-0.4.0.orig/src/timer.c 1995-01-11 11:24:04.000000000 -0700 @@ -44,6 +44,7 @@ #include #include #include +#include #include timer.h #include debugger.h ==== wisdom I have a simple patch that makes x48 0.4.1e work for me. Give it a try. diff -ur x48-0.4.1/src/hp48.h /home/fugalh/src/x48-0.4.1/src/hp48.h --- x48-0.4.1/src/hp48.h 1999-09-07 09:41:45.000000000 -0600 @@ -252,8 +252,8 @@ long t1_instr; long t2_instr; - short t1_tick; - short t2_tick; + long t1_tick; + long t2_tick; long i_per_s; short bank_switch; diff -ur x48-0.4.1/src/timer.c /home/fugalh/src/x48-0.4.1/src/timer.c --- x48-0.4.1/src/timer.c 1999-09-07 09:41:48.000000000 -0600 @@ -44,6 +44,7 @@ #include #include #include +#include #include timer.h #include debugger.h -- Hans Fugal | De gustibus non disputandum est. http://hans.fugal.net/ | Debian, vim, mutt, ruby, text, gpg http://gdmxml.fugal.net/ | WindowMaker, gaim, UTF-8, RISC, JS Bach --------------------------------------------------------------------- GnuPG Fingerprint: 6940 87C5 6610 567F 1E95 CB5E FC98 E8CD E0AA D460 ==== > wisdom I have a simple patch that makes x48 0.4.1e work for me. Give > it a try. You should have a look at Ivan Cibrario HP48/49 emulator. Much much better than x48 and at least it works ==== > You should have a look at Ivan Cibrario HP48/49 emulator. > > Much much better than x48 and at least it works I couldn't say - I haven't been able to get it to work. -- Hans Fugal | De gustibus non disputandum est. http://hans.fugal.net/ | Debian, vim, mutt, ruby, text, gpg http://gdmxml.fugal.net/ | WindowMaker, gaim, UTF-8, RISC, JS Bach --------------------------------------------------------------------- GnuPG Fingerprint: 6940 87C5 6610 567F 1E95 CB5E FC98 E8CD E0AA D460 I'm trying to load a simple userRPL program in the YorkeM emulator, but I don't seem to be having any luck. I've tried the YorkeM emulator within debug2, but can't figure it out. Looks waaaay too confusing for me. The stand alone YorkeM looks much easier to use. I don't know how to load an 'object'. Can someone help me out? - Ian NOSPAM_NOSPAM__SOZE99_at_AOL_dot_COM__NOSPAM_NOSPAM ==== Forgot to mention.... HP49G. Also, with the debug2 version, I can't even load the RAM. Any help with that would be helpful too. - Ian ==== Soze99 schrieb > I don't know how to load an 'object'. Can someone help me out? 1. Is your emulator running? 2. Choose the commands Edit Load Object .. ==== When I right click, my choices are: YorkeM Object > State > Engine > Console Minimize Quit Clicking on Object > and my choices are: Load with Kermit Load with XModem Load on Stack Load in Port 1 If I select Load on Stack and select my file, the emulator reboots (looks like an HP rebooting) and there's nothing on the stack. If I select Load in Port 1 and select my file, the screen becomes garbled and displays the menu bar twice along the bottom of the screen. Sometimes there's something in the port, sometimes the emulator locks up and there's nothing in the port after resetting the engine. If there is something in port 1 it's just the text 'EXTEND' And I don't know how to load with Kermit or XServer with this emulator. Any ideas? - Ian ==== Why don«t you use debug4x with EMU48? This runs perfectly well on my machine. HTH Andreas ==== (Notice this is cross-posted to 3 groups. Please cross-post replies to the same 3 groups.) I've been looking into y^x and xth root of y on HP 32SII and 48SX calculators. There are interesting differences between the two functions and between the two calculators. I didn't care about underflow or overflow, so given x and y such that they avoid these situations, it appears the calculators behave as follows. (x,y are reals; i,j,n are integers.) HP 32SII, y^x, produces real results when: y > 0 (no restrictions on x) y < 0, x integer y = 0, x > 0 HP 32SII, xth root of y, produces real results when: y > 0, x <> 0 y = 0, x >= 0 y < 0, x = an odd integer, or = +/- 1/(2^i*5^j) (i,j >= 0) HP 48SX, y^x, produces real results when: y > 0 (no restrictions on x) y < 0, x integer y = 0, x >= 0 HP 48SX, xth root of y, produces real results when: y > 0, x <> 0 y = 0, x >= 0 y < 0, x = an odd integer, or = +/- 1/(2^i*5^j) (i,j >= 0) I would appreciate someone verifying the above, since the results came from examples I tried, not documentation. I'd also be interested in differences appearing in other calculators (like TIs) as well. Interesting things to notice: x = +/- 1/(2^i*5^j) corresponds to the situations where x = 1/n is exactly representable in base 10. I was surprised to see that 1/(1/3)) = exactly 3 and 1/(1/4) = exactly 4, but (1/3) root of -pi gives an error and (1/4) root of -pi gives a numeric answer. I would have thought that if 1/x calculated to an integer, that xth root of y (< 0) would give a real result. HP 32 SII: 0^0 = an error. The -5th root of -32 = -0.5, but -32^(-1/5) = an error. HP 48 SX: 0^0 = 1. The -5th root of -32 = -0.5, but -32^(-1/5) = 0.4-i*0.3 (complex). 0^0 has been discussed in these groups, as a matter of definition. But I was surprised two different HP calculators define it differently. I also thought xth root of y might be defined as y^(1/x), but it's not. y^x is likely implemented as e^(x*ln(y)), and ln(y) when y < 0 is defined as having principal branch -pi < imag(ln(y)) <= pi. But xth root of y favors giving a real result whenever possible instead of following the ln(y) principal branch precedent. It really doesn't even do the whenever possible, given the x = +/- 1/(2^i*5^j) requirement. Corrections, extensions, or related thoughts? Rick ==== > HP 32SII, xth root of y, produces real results when: > ... > y = 0, x >= 0 > ... Correction: HP 32SII, xth root of y, produces real results when: ... y = 0, x > 0 ... Rick ==== > HP 32SII, y^x, produces real results when: > y < 0, x integer HP 32SII, xth root of y, produces real results when: > y < 0, x = an odd integer, or = +/- 1/(2^i*5^j) (i,j >= 0) HP 48SX, y^x, produces real results when: > y < 0, x integer HP 48SX, xth root of y, produces real results when: > y < 0, x = an odd integer, or = +/- 1/(2^i*5^j) (i,j >= 0) x = +/- 1/(2^i*5^j) corresponds to the situations where x = 1/n is > exactly representable in base 10. I was surprised to see that > 1/(1/3)) = exactly 3 and 1/(1/4) = exactly 4, but (1/3) root of > -pi gives an error and (1/4) root of -pi gives a numeric answer. > I would have thought that if 1/x calculated to an integer, that > xth root of y (< 0) would give a real result. HP 32 SII: > 0^0 = an error. > The -5th root of -32 = -0.5, but -32^(-1/5) = an error. HP 48 SX: > 0^0 = 1. > The -5th root of -32 = -0.5, but -32^(-1/5) = 0.4-i*0.3 (complex). Corrections, extensions, or related thoughts? > You've again shown that programers aren't mathmaticians. Another one they often get wrong is modulus of integers. ==== > > HP 32 SII: > 0^0 = an error. > The -5th root of -32 = -0.5, but -32^(-1/5) = an error. > You have to type 0 enter -32 enter 0 enter -0.2 cmplx y^x to get the right answer on the 32sii !! Axel