HP-39 ==== > With my hp48sx and HPComm this was no problem; but I cannot seem to > figure out a way to transfer a working program (constructed in > notepad) to my new hp49g+ via Conn4x. It seems that the only way > Conn4x sends data is via a string. Well, it seems that the only way Conn4x transfers files is via Xmodem, which doesn't have an ASCII mode, and since it didn't have a valid binary transfer header, it stored the entire transfer as a character string. > via XRECV: > > On the hp49g+ the contents of my program variables become strings > with newline chars embedded. Using the header: HPHP49-C > %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); just adds that header to the string. The HPHP4n-x (where 4n-x is the ROM information) is a binary transfer header. The compiled object, starting with the 5-nibble prolog, is expected to immediately follow the header, and it's just a bit difficult to work with. The binary transfer header tells the calculator that everything following the header is a compiled object, and whether the object is valid for the calculator that you're trying to transfer it to. Note that files transferred in binary mode are not intended to be edited outside of a calculator. The %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); is an ASCII transfer header. ASCII transfers use the command line editor's string form of the decompiled object and doubled backslashes, and non-ASCII characters to translation codes. A file transferred in this manner can be edited just like in the command line editor; at worst you'll get a syntax error when you transfer it back to the calculator and it tries to compile your source code. When the calculator receives (using Kermit) a file with an ASCII transfer header, the header tell the calculator to treat it as such. The T(3) tells it to using Translation mode 3. The A(D) tells it to treat Angular components of vectors and ordered pairs as Degrees. The F(.) tells it that a . is a Fraction mark and a , is a separator. These parameters are optional and can be in any order. For example, %%HP: A(D)F(.)T(3); has the same effect as %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.);, and %%HP: ; makes it an ASCII transfer using the calculator's current modes. If the binary transfer header isn't valid for the calculator, then the transfer is stored as a string. Likewise, if no header is present, it's also stored as a string. When using Xmodem, an ASCII transfer header is meaningless to the calculator, so it just stores the transfer as a string. If you add either of these headers to a string and send it from the calculator via Xmodem, then it will just prepend a binary transfer header to the compiled string. In the case of a compiled character string, it starts with a 5-nibble prolog, followed by a 5-nibble count of the numbers of nibbles in the object (not including the prolog). These are the 5 garbage characters you find after the header when you look at a string transferred to your PC via a binary transfer. Finally comes the characters in the string, each 1 byte. What you can do is, first, make sure that you're in STD number display format so that all 12 digits of reals are included, and make sure that the wordsize is 64 (do 64 STWS) so that all 64 bits of user binary numbers are included. Now do ->STR; this decompiles the object to string form. If you want newlines and all non-ASCII characters translated, first make sure the translation mode in IOPAR is 3. Run 3 TRANSIO if you're not sure. Also keep track of the angular mode and fraction mark. Then run the following program, but be careful to copy the hex number before SYSEVAL exactly, and use the BYTES command to verify the checksum and size before running it. %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Checksum: # 2AC1h @ Size: 28. @ For 49G and 49g+ only! << ->STR @ Verify that an argument exists and @ force it to be a string. # 2F34Fh SYSEVAL @ KVISLF for 49G and 49g+. >> Now, use Xmodem (or the SD card) to transfer it to your computer. Note that it will have the binary transfer header, string prolog and nibble count. If you change the file in any way at all, remove these first 13 characters while you're at it. Note that it would be very easy to get a mismatch between the actual string length and the count field after the prolog; I wouldn't care to experiment with how the calculator would deal with something like that in an object. When you transfer the edited file back to the calculator, it will be stored as a string, because with the missing header, the calculator won't know what else to do with it. To change the translation codes back to characters, check that the translation mode in IOPAR is correct, and then run the following program, the precautions for SYSEVALs apply here too. %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Checksum: # CED2h @ Size: 30.5 @ For 49G and 49g+ only! << ->STR @ Verify that an argument exists and @ force it to be a string. # 2F34Dh SYSEVAL @ KINVIS for 49G and 49g+. + @ Append any partial code. >> Finally, make sure that the angular mode and fraction mark is correct, and then do STR-> (or OBJ->) to compile from the string form to an object. > Am I doing this incorrectly with the hp49xx series? Is there a flag > setting that I need to change? I have tried toggling flag 35 from > binary to ASCII, which produced the same string. Sorry, ASCII mode is for the Kermit file transfer only. It amounts to pre/post-processing for Kermit. It has never been implemented for Xmodem, and Conn4x doesn't offer Kermit. > Help is missing from my version 2.1 build 1783 Conn4x. Your help is > appreciated, thanks! Yes, apparently it's assumed that you already have Conn4x and the USB driver installed when you do the updates. Re-install from the CD that came with your calculator and the install the update. -- James ==== > What you can do is, first, make sure that you're in STD number display > format so that all 12 digits of reals are included, and make sure that > the wordsize is 64 (do 64 STWS) so that all 64 bits of user binary > numbers are included. Now do ->STR; this decompiles the object to > string form. If you want newlines and all non-ASCII characters > translated, first make sure the translation mode in IOPAR is 3. Run 3 > TRANSIO if you're not sure. Also keep track of the angular mode and > fraction mark. > > Then run the following program, but be careful to copy the hex number > before SYSEVAL exactly, and use the BYTES command to verify the checksum > and size before running it. > > %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); > @ Checksum: # 2AC1h > @ Size: 28. > @ For 49G and 49g+ only! > << > ->STR @ Verify that an argument exists and > @ force it to be a string. > # 2F34Fh SYSEVAL @ KVISLF for 49G and 49g+. > >> Come to think of it, you may as well just set the translation mode do the following instead: %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Checksum: # 34CAh @ Size: 46. @ For 49G and 49g+ only! << DUP DROP @ Verify that an argument exists. # 25ECEh SYSEVAL @ EDITDECOMP$ for 49G and 49g+. # 2F34Fh SYSEVAL @ KVISLF for 49G and 49g+. >> Don't forget to keep track of the translation mode, angular mode if the object has any ordered pairs or vectors with angular components, and of course the fraction mark. -- James ==== I have been ping ponging back and forth using the technique described by Earl Cenac (ala EMU48 v1.33). It's a quick and dirty way to accomplish the same thing. It just needs the emulator as an intermediary. I guess I don't quite understand why hp couldn't have adapted the HPComm v 3.04 to include a USB driver option. I would think that would have worked just fine; and not have had to play ASCII to Binary conversion and vice versa. Perhaps there were copyright issues(?) or something. I did understand about the header symbolism as that was the case with hp48sx also. I have made a bunch of proggys on the hp48sx with HPComm and it was adequate for the purpose. Conn4x is just not ready for prime time yet; and there is that outstanding issue of lack of rs-232 from the hp49g+ still left haunting. > > With my hp48sx and HPComm this was no problem; but I cannot seem to > > figure out a way to transfer a working program (constructed in > > notepad) to my new hp49g+ via Conn4x. It seems that the only way > > Conn4x sends data is via a string. > >Well, it seems that the only way Conn4x transfers files is via Xmodem, >which doesn't have an ASCII mode, and since it didn't have a valid >binary transfer header, it stored the entire transfer as a character >string. > > > via XRECV: > > > > On the hp49g+ the contents of my program variables become strings > > with newline chars embedded. Using the header: HPHP49-C > > %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); just adds that header to the string. > >The HPHP4n-x (where 4n-x is the ROM information) is a binary transfer >header. The compiled object, starting with the 5-nibble prolog, is >expected to immediately follow the header, and it's just a bit difficult >to work with. The binary transfer header tells the calculator that >everything following the header is a compiled object, and whether the >object is valid for the calculator that you're trying to transfer it to. > >Note that files transferred in binary mode are not intended to be edited >outside of a calculator. > >The %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); is an ASCII transfer header. ASCII transfers >use the command line editor's string form of the decompiled object and >doubled backslashes, and non-ASCII characters to translation codes. A >file transferred in this manner can be edited just like in the command >line editor; at worst you'll get a syntax error when you transfer it >back to the calculator and it tries to compile your source code. > >When the calculator receives (using Kermit) a file with an ASCII >transfer header, the header tell the calculator to treat it as such. The >T(3) tells it to using Translation mode 3. The A(D) tells it to >treat Angular components of vectors and ordered pairs as Degrees. The >F(.) tells it that a . is a Fraction mark and a , is a separator. >These parameters are optional and can be in any order. For example, >%%HP: A(D)F(.)T(3); has the same effect as %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.);, and >%%HP: ; makes it an ASCII transfer using the calculator's current >modes. > >If the binary transfer header isn't valid for the calculator, then the >transfer is stored as a string. Likewise, if no header is present, it's >also stored as a string. When using Xmodem, an ASCII transfer header is >meaningless to the calculator, so it just stores the transfer as a >string. > >If you add either of these headers to a string and send it from the >calculator via Xmodem, then it will just prepend a binary transfer header >to the compiled string. > >In the case of a compiled character string, it starts with a 5-nibble >prolog, followed by a 5-nibble count of the numbers of nibbles in the >object (not including the prolog). These are the 5 garbage characters >you find after the header when you look at a string transferred to your >PC via a binary transfer. Finally comes the characters in the string, >each 1 byte. > >What you can do is, first, make sure that you're in STD number display >format so that all 12 digits of reals are included, and make sure that >the wordsize is 64 (do 64 STWS) so that all 64 bits of user binary >numbers are included. Now do ->STR; this decompiles the object to >string form. If you want newlines and all non-ASCII characters >translated, first make sure the translation mode in IOPAR is 3. Run 3 >TRANSIO if you're not sure. Also keep track of the angular mode and >fraction mark. > >Then run the following program, but be careful to copy the hex number >before SYSEVAL exactly, and use the BYTES command to verify the checksum >and size before running it. > >%%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); >@ Checksum: # 2AC1h >@ Size: 28. >@ For 49G and 49g+ only! ><< > ->STR @ Verify that an argument exists and > @ force it to be a string. > # 2F34Fh SYSEVAL @ KVISLF for 49G and 49g+. >>> > >Now, use Xmodem (or the SD card) to transfer it to your computer. Note >that it will have the binary transfer header, string prolog and nibble >count. > >If you change the file in any way at all, remove these first 13 >characters while you're at it. Note that it would be very easy to get a >mismatch between the actual string length and the count field after the >prolog; I wouldn't care to experiment with how the calculator would deal >with something like that in an object. > >When you transfer the edited file back to the calculator, it will be >stored as a string, because with the missing header, the calculator >won't know what else to do with it. > >To change the translation codes back to characters, check that the >translation mode in IOPAR is correct, and then run the following >program, the precautions for SYSEVALs apply here too. > >%%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); >@ Checksum: # CED2h >@ Size: 30.5 >@ For 49G and 49g+ only! ><< > ->STR @ Verify that an argument exists and > @ force it to be a string. > # 2F34Dh SYSEVAL @ KINVIS for 49G and 49g+. > + @ Append any partial code. >>> > >Finally, make sure that the angular mode and fraction mark is correct, >and then do STR-> (or OBJ->) to compile from the string form to an >object. > > > Am I doing this incorrectly with the hp49xx series? Is there a flag > > setting that I need to change? I have tried toggling flag 35 from > > binary to ASCII, which produced the same string. > >Sorry, ASCII mode is for the Kermit file transfer only. It amounts to >pre/post-processing for Kermit. It has never been implemented for >Xmodem, and Conn4x doesn't offer Kermit. > > > Help is missing from my version 2.1 build 1783 Conn4x. Your help is > > appreciated, thanks! > >Yes, apparently it's assumed that you already have Conn4x and the USB >driver installed when you do the updates. Re-install from the CD that >came with your calculator and the install the update. ==== > I have been ping ponging back and forth using the technique described > by Earl Cenac (ala EMU48 v1.33). It's a quick and dirty way to > accomplish the same thing. It just needs the emulator as an > intermediary. > > I guess I don't quite understand why hp couldn't have adapted the > HPComm v 3.04 to include a USB driver option. I would think that > would have worked just fine; and not have had to play ASCII to Binary > conversion and vice versa. Perhaps there were copyright issues(?) or > something. Could be. > I did understand about the header symbolism as that was the case with > hp48sx also. I have made a bunch of proggys on the hp48sx with HPComm > and it was adequate for the purpose. Conn4x is just not ready for > prime time yet; and there is that outstanding issue of lack of rs-232 > from the hp49g+ still left haunting. Agreed. I can't even use Conn4x with my computer except to update the ROM. And there have been reports of other problem with it. I wish that they'd add Kermit (with its ASCII transfer mode) to it. Why not an ASCII transfer mode for Xmodem? And for compatibility with the 48 series, when doing an ASCII transfer, if the characters NUL, , or are in the decompiled object, use the counted string form before doing the translations. And add an option to translate the control codes 0-9, 11-31, and 127 too. replace them with a user-defined line termination string, as is done when printing by wire or Serial IR. -- James ==== Well, this does seem to work ... but (somehow) I was expecting a somewhat less convoluted solution. One might think that given the depth of knowledge and breadth of experience of hp (calcs) that there would be a little more elegant (aka: simpler) process. I thank you, and at least I'm off and running now. I hope hp doesn't consider Conn4x to be the ultimate be-all / end-all PC to hp49g+ program development solution and that perhaps they might make another attempt to improve upon their effort in some fashion. (:^0)| There just might be a little wiggle room for some improvement if they try! >> With my hp48sx and HPComm this was no problem; but I cannot seem to >> figure out a way to transfer a working program (constructed in >> notepad) to my new hp49g+ via Conn4x. It seems that the only way >> Conn4x sends data is via a string. >> >> via XRECV: >> >> On the hp49g+ the contents of my program variables become strings >> with newline chars embedded. Using the header: HPHP49-C >> %%HP: T(3)A(D)F(.); just adds that header to the string. >> >> Am I doing this incorrectly with the hp49xx series? Is there a flag >> setting that I need to change? I have tried toggling flag 35 from >> binary to ASCII, which produced the same string. >> >> Help is missing from my version 2.1 build 1783 Conn4x. Your help is >> appreciated, thanks! >> >> -Dale- > > >I had the same problem till I did these and now I have no problem. >1 If you do not have it yet, download debug4x from www.hpcalc.org. >One of the things that comes with it is the emu49 emulator. >2 Download http://www.hpcalc.org/search.php?query=emu48+Ascii+to+Binary+Converter >from www.hpcalc.org. >Follow the simple instructions in the text file attached to load the >emu49asc.bin file into the emulator and save it as any variable you >want (In the emulator). >Now with your notepad file with the correct heading %%HP: >T(0)A(D)F(.); and program delimiters Ç È , load it into the emulator. >Then convert it by pressing the variable that you created in step 2 >earlier. > >Your program is now converted into a compiled form ready to transfer >into the calculator. > >Using the emulator's save object menu command, save the file on your >pc. Save it with a calculator variable name (without any extension). > >Finally, download your program into your calculator using your usb >connection and you have your calculator program ready to run. ==== >Thx anyway for your time. At least you pointed out to me how to perform an >error trapping based on LAMs used as flags; I never thinked to it before, I >just used the error numbers. > >Thx again, >Kickaha Well, if you are trapping on a block with multiple error sources, then you can use error numbers if the sets of possible errors generated by each source are disjoint. If they're not, as was the case in my example, then you'd have ambiguity. Anyway, I used a flag because I thought in my lethargic delirium it would be more elegant to use one error block, but it turns out that simple separate error blocks for each source will usually be smaller. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== >it is possible to create one better by rs232, but I just wanted to >create something special and not done. Well, I wouldn't say an rs-232 keyboard would be better, other than it would be easier. You'd still have to use up a card slot, in this case to override the interrupt handler and low level key access routines, but this would be far less general as anything that bypasses the OS and accesses the keyboard directly ( such as many assembly games ) will not work. I think the best solution would be to provide a card that interfaces the row/column lines with, say, a PS/2 controller, although you'd need a special custom adapter and extension cable to connect the keyboard. > >Bye. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== >Post some more details. How did you do it. Actually, it's quite simple. The Yorke IC multiplexes the same set of 19 lines between serving as the external (byte-wise) memory bus and serving as the row and column lines of the keyboard. Since the same memory bus is shared by every device in the system, including the card slots, it's possible to fool the Yorke into thinking a key has been pressed by modifying the voltage levels of the address bus pins. AFAIK, the first time this was publicly mentioned was in the June '91 issue of the HP Journal ( http://library.hp41.org/LibView.cfm?Command=Image&FileID=91645 ) . I'm surprised that in 12 years this has only been done twice. >I use an older 48 sx, so no value to me, Actually, the slot 1 pinout and functionality hasn't changed between the GX and SX, so it should work, although the keys would need to be relabeled. >Cameron downunder. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== Not knowing what *PLONK* meant, I looked it up on FOLDOC. Pretty apt. ******************* plonk (Possibly influenced by British slang plonk for cheap booze, or plonker for someone behaving stupidly; usually written *plonk*) The sound a newbie makes as he falls to the bottom of a kill file. While this term originated in the Usenet newsgroup talk.bizarre, by ridicule. Another theory is that it is an acronym for Person with Little Or No Knowledge. ************************* > *PLONK* > > > >TITLE: > > > Pete M. Wilson > Gamewood, Inc. > wilsonpm@gamewood.net ==== > problems. > > A.L. > > P.S. I have also huge collection of Sharps, including early pocket > computers and large collection of Casio. I simply like calculators > as gadgets. But I don't LOVE them such as the majority of people > that post to this group do. > Can anyone show me how to properly use the ^MAKEARRY command in SYSRPL with the HP49G. This is the code snippet I've tried: { #3 #3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY or { 3 3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY When I compile with ASM and EVAL, my calc hangs with an hourglass. Any ideas? - Ian ==== > { #3 #3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY > or > { 3 3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY > > When I compile with ASM and EVAL, my calc hangs with an hourglass. ^MAKEARRY only accepts symbolic objects (%1 is of course a real). ==== > ^MAKEARRY only accepts symbolic objects (%1 is of course a real). Well, just disregard the above and let me die in peace :-/ Reals are of course perfectly ok to feed to ^MAKEARRY :-) ==== - Ian ==== >> { #3 #3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY >> or >> { 3 3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY >> >> When I compile with ASM and EVAL, my calc hangs with an hourglass. SS> ^MAKEARRY only accepts symbolic objects (%1 is of course a real). No, in fact it accepts symbolic, real, complex and zint. The only bug in the program is (as pointed out by others) that FPTR2 is missing in front of ^MAKEARRY. - Carsten ==== > No, in fact it accepts symbolic, real, complex and zint. Not according to SDIAG ;-) ==== >> No, in fact it accepts symbolic, real, complex and zint. SS> Not according to SDIAG ;-) Thats right, but it is correct in the database http://zon.astro.uva.nl/~dominik/hpcalc/entries/hp49g/entries_176.html#IDX34 46 and therefore will also be corret in the next version of SDIAG. - Carsten ==== > > > { #3 #3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY > > or > > { 3 3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY > > > > When I compile with ASM and EVAL, my calc hangs with an hourglass. > ^MAKEARRY only accepts symbolic objects (%1 is of course a real). This is not true, at least not on the 49+. I forgot to write the real %1 in my program, just before FPTR2^MAKEARRY. Sorry, Wolfgang ==== Soze99 escribi.97 en el mensaje > Can anyone show me how to properly use the ^MAKEARRY command in SYSRPL with the > HP49G. > This is the code snippet I've tried: > > { #3 #3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY > or > { 3 3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY > > When I compile with ASM and EVAL, my calc hangs with an hourglass. > Any ideas? If the command start with ^, add FPTR2 { 3 3 } %1 FPTR2 ^MAKEARRY Saludos, Aquilino > - Ian ==== > > Soze99 escribi.97 en el mensaje > > Can anyone show me how to properly use the ^MAKEARRY command in SYSRPL > with the > > HP49G. > > This is the code snippet I've tried: > > > > { #3 #3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY > > or > > { 3 3 } %1 ^MAKEARRY > > > > When I compile with ASM and EVAL, my calc hangs with an hourglass. > > Any ideas? > > If the command start with ^, add FPTR2 > { 3 3 } %1 FPTR2 ^MAKEARRY The string :: { #3 #3 } FPTR2^MAKEARRY ; @ is compiled with ASM to the SysRPL program :: BINT3 BINT3 %1 FPTR 6 373 ; provided flag -92 is set. And this program evals to the matrix - - | |. 1. 1. | | 1. 1. 1. | | 1. 1. 1. | - - as it should be. It is not necessary to write #3 #3 in your list. Simply write { 3 3 }. Nacked numbers are always understood by MASD as system bints in decimal representation. - Wolfgang ==== But you seem to know your math quite well. For you, there is no argument; use whatever calculator you like (of course we here hope it is a HP RPN model), for you don't look like the type that will allow a skill to go rusty. But for many students, they can benefit by doing the manual steps. I will admit however, that on an exam, there is a need for time, so if your instructor allows it, use the calculator! But on homework or practice, I'd do it by hand, doing only what a simple 4-function calculator... well, maybe simple scientific... can do in the calculator. Enjoy your studies! > I have to agree with MG, even though one has to learn the how most > operations of math works (algebra,trigonometry,calculus), having a > calculator around is good helps in two very important aspects: > > 1) Having the correct answer to questions give confidence for users > that lack it (such as myself) > > 2) Curious people will always try to find things on they own and the > calculator are a great way to explore the world of math. > > In my last calculus exam I had to calculate the limit of the following > fucntion , excuse me for the wrong notation but I have no idea what's > used outside Brazil: > > Lim((x-atan(x))/(x^3)),x=0) > As many of you already know, atan(0) is 1 so it was a simply just to > apply L'hospital until you got the result 1/3. > > But I have already learned series and my professor told me that many > of the questions involving limits are created by taking a series of a > familiar function and doing some operation with it. This comment is > always on my head and I decided to calculate that limit using series. > > I started with what we call The Geometric Series: > 1/(1-x)=1+x+x^2+x^3+... > > I then replace x by (-x^2): > 1/(1+x^2)=1-x^2+x^4-x^6+... > > Following that I calculated the integral of both sides: > atan(x)=x-(x^3/3)+(x^5/5)-(x^7/7)+... > > Putting a (-) in both sides of the equation: > -(atan(x))=-x+(x^3/3)-(x^5/5)+(x^7/7)+... > > Adding x: > x-atan(x)=(x^3/3)-(x^5/5)+(x^7/7)+... > > Diving by (x^3): > (x-atan(x))/(x^3)=(1/3)-(x^2/5)+(x^4/7)... > > If x=0: > (x-atan(x))/(x^3)=(1/3) > > Is it as easy as just doing L'hospital? No. > Is it worth doing limits this way during an exam? No. > Is it interesting to resolve limits using series? Yes. > Is it fun? Hell yeah :P > > Conclusion: > A graphing calculator can be good or bad, it's just the way you use it > that adds or subtracts from your mathing skills (pun is not > intentional :P). > > | va.va | > > > > > > >>student in Australia studying Mechatronic Engineering. In my high school >>years I lived in Western Australia, where we used the 38G and 39G >>calculators quite extensively, I also dabbled with the Casio GFX9500+ from >>personal interest. I found two things, firstly, the teachers knew very very >>little about the operation of the calculators and most of what we learnt was >>from the people around who figured it out from the manual. Secondly, some >>people have a genuine interest in learning the fundamental theory of >>mathematics and others are quite happy to learn the process and apply it >>time after time. Fortunately I was interested in the theory because when I >>went moved to the Eastern States (New South Wales) to start university I >>found that NSW does not use graphic calculators at all. That said, in all of >>first year uni, we still have not covered the same amount of maths that we >>did in final year of high school. This is because once we have learnt the >>fundamental theory we get bogged down by doing silly things like row >>reductions and inverting matrices by hand which are simple to do on advanced >>calculators. The point is that I find this sort of thing pointless!! Even >>more pointless I think is learning numerical solving methods only to have to >>sit and substitute value after value after value with a scientific >>calculator when a graphical calculator can do it more quickly and more >>accurately than what I would need. Do you honestly think that outside of uni >>if I had to find a set of egien values/vectors I would do it by hand? What >>is the point? So for those who want to program the calculators and computers >>etc (which I enjoy immensely) let them learn the theory, for those who >>simply need to do the calculation, just do it on a graphics calculator and >>move on, what is the point of having the technology and not using it. >> >>Now as to the use of the HP48SX, I am not familiar with this exact >>calculator but I assume that it would take an RPN style entry. If this is >>so, then to a highschool student, it would be of very little use, I would >>personally suggest something along the lines of the 38G,39G or 39G+ or even >>the TI-83 or CasioGFX950+ these are all more suitable for this level of >>study. (My personal favorite is the 39G which has some great calculus >>functions and there is a great collection of aplets about to help out..see >>www.hphomeview.com for more info) >> ==== I must agree with va.va. After having my graphics calculator for only a short time I discovered that if I manipulated the coeffients the right way, I could make an x^3 graph look like a SIN(x) graph. To my amazemnet in 1'st year univeristy I discovered that what I had done ,with no mathematical knowlege, was to derive a simple Taylor expansion of SIN(x). The point is that I didnt have to know any complex maths to do it, it didnt take me hours to do beacuse I could plot each function in a matter of seconds, and I learnt by exploration the Taylor Series. I am now very greatfull that I learnt it this way because I have a personal understanding for the Taylor Series not just some mathematical mumbo jumbo that the lecturer taught us. To me that is the real power of a graphics calculator in learning. M@ > But you seem to know your math quite well. For you, there is no > argument; use whatever calculator you like (of course we here hope it is > a HP RPN model), for you don't look like the type that will allow a > skill to go rusty. But for many students, they can benefit by doing the > manual steps. I will admit however, that on an exam, there is a need > for time, so if your instructor allows it, use the calculator! But on > homework or practice, I'd do it by hand, doing only what a simple > 4-function calculator... well, maybe simple scientific... can do in the > calculator. Enjoy your studies! > > > > I have to agree with MG, even though one has to learn the how most > > operations of math works (algebra,trigonometry,calculus), having a > > calculator around is good helps in two very important aspects: > > > > 1) Having the correct answer to questions give confidence for users > > that lack it (such as myself) > > > > 2) Curious people will always try to find things on they own and the > > calculator are a great way to explore the world of math. > > > > In my last calculus exam I had to calculate the limit of the following > > fucntion , excuse me for the wrong notation but I have no idea what's > > used outside Brazil: > > > > Lim((x-atan(x))/(x^3)),x=0) > > As many of you already know, atan(0) is 1 so it was a simply just to > > apply L'hospital until you got the result 1/3. > > > > But I have already learned series and my professor told me that many > > of the questions involving limits are created by taking a series of a > > familiar function and doing some operation with it. This comment is > > always on my head and I decided to calculate that limit using series. > > > > I started with what we call The Geometric Series: > > 1/(1-x)=1+x+x^2+x^3+... > > > > I then replace x by (-x^2): > > 1/(1+x^2)=1-x^2+x^4-x^6+... > > > > Following that I calculated the integral of both sides: > > atan(x)=x-(x^3/3)+(x^5/5)-(x^7/7)+... > > > > Putting a (-) in both sides of the equation: > > -(atan(x))=-x+(x^3/3)-(x^5/5)+(x^7/7)+... > > > > Adding x: > > x-atan(x)=(x^3/3)-(x^5/5)+(x^7/7)+... > > > > Diving by (x^3): > > (x-atan(x))/(x^3)=(1/3)-(x^2/5)+(x^4/7)... > > > > If x=0: > > (x-atan(x))/(x^3)=(1/3) > > > > Is it as easy as just doing L'hospital? No. > > Is it worth doing limits this way during an exam? No. > > Is it interesting to resolve limits using series? Yes. > > Is it fun? Hell yeah :P > > > > Conclusion: > > A graphing calculator can be good or bad, it's just the way you use it > > that adds or subtracts from your mathing skills (pun is not > > intentional :P). > > > > | va.va | > > > > > > > > > > > > university > >>student in Australia studying Mechatronic Engineering. In my high school > >>years I lived in Western Australia, where we used the 38G and 39G > >>calculators quite extensively, I also dabbled with the Casio GFX9500+ from > >>personal interest. I found two things, firstly, the teachers knew very very > >>little about the operation of the calculators and most of what we learnt was > >>from the people around who figured it out from the manual. Secondly, some > >>people have a genuine interest in learning the fundamental theory of > >>mathematics and others are quite happy to learn the process and apply it > >>time after time. Fortunately I was interested in the theory because when I > >>went moved to the Eastern States (New South Wales) to start university I > >>found that NSW does not use graphic calculators at all. That said, in all of > >>first year uni, we still have not covered the same amount of maths that we > >>did in final year of high school. This is because once we have learnt the > >>fundamental theory we get bogged down by doing silly things like row > >>reductions and inverting matrices by hand which are simple to do on advanced > >>calculators. The point is that I find this sort of thing pointless!! Even > >>more pointless I think is learning numerical solving methods only to have to > >>sit and substitute value after value after value with a scientific > >>calculator when a graphical calculator can do it more quickly and more > >>accurately than what I would need. Do you honestly think that outside of uni > >>if I had to find a set of egien values/vectors I would do it by hand? What > >>is the point? So for those who want to program the calculators and computers > >>etc (which I enjoy immensely) let them learn the theory, for those who > >>simply need to do the calculation, just do it on a graphics calculator and > >>move on, what is the point of having the technology and not using it. > >> > >>Now as to the use of the HP48SX, I am not familiar with this exact > >>calculator but I assume that it would take an RPN style entry. If this is > >>so, then to a highschool student, it would be of very little use, I would > >>personally suggest something along the lines of the 38G,39G or 39G+ or even > >>the TI-83 or CasioGFX950+ these are all more suitable for this level of > >>study. (My personal favorite is the 39G which has some great calculus > >>functions and there is a great collection of aplets about to help out..see > >>www.hphomeview.com for more info) > >> > ==== > I must agree with va.va. After having my graphics calculator for only a > short time I discovered that if I manipulated the coeffients the right way, > I could make an x^3 graph look like a SIN(x) graph. To my amazemnet in 1'st > year univeristy I discovered that what I had done ,with no mathematical > knowlege, was to derive a simple Taylor expansion of SIN(x). The point is > that I didnt have to know any complex maths to do it, it didnt take me hours > to do beacuse I could plot each function in a matter of seconds, and I > learnt by exploration the Taylor Series. I am now very greatfull that I > learnt it this way because I have a personal understanding for the Taylor > Series not just some mathematical mumbo jumbo that the lecturer taught us. > To me that is the real power of a graphics calculator in learning. I've had a similar experience. When I was in the 6th grade, was playing around with a four funtion calculator. I realized that (in the language of the math that I new at the time) that the difference between a number times its self and a number one smaller times itself was twice the number is twice the smaller number plus one. It took until the 9th grade when I taught myself calculus to realize that I had discovered the concept behind the derivative way back in 6th grade. In the 8th grade I played around with a emulated TI-89. I had no idea what the symbolic integrate and differentiate functions did, and wanting to now this is why I picked up a calculus textbook. I do not believe that now, in the 10th grade I was in any way hurt by using calculators. I use an underpowered but required TI 83 for my school math class but eagerly await the arrival of my HP-49g+ so I can explore some more. I now routinely use my copy of Mathematical to investigate mathematical oddities so I can explore the often unexpected but correct results. I agree that the use of any type of calculator may hurt the weaker students who have not mastered the concepts the calculator is used for. However, occasional use of a symbolic manipulator for exploration will help all students expand their knowledge. As for the original posters question, my school is so TI dependent that I am the only students who (soon will have) has an HP calculator. I have always been insulted when teachers spend class time explaining how to use a calculator they barely understand themselves, but that is a reality I face. I know how to use my TI 83 better then any student or teacher else in my two kid high school even though I use it only in class; preferring Mathematical or a symbolic calculator to complete homework exercises of skills I have long since mastered. even though I rarely do my homework manually, I scored a 98 scientific calculator. I have no regrets to my use of a of powerful tools that and often do have amazing benefits. ==== Whilst I agree with you entirley, I think that the people on this group do have a point, that is, for you or I, the usage of the calculator itself is a non issue. We feel comfortable exploring our way around it and learning almost by trial and error. But many people (I dont see how) find the use of the calculators themselves a great challange. Thus the amount of leaning that they gain is limited mainly because they use only what they have been taught (badly) by teachers and have little understanding of what they are doing. BTW, I think that this discussion has driffted quite drastically from the original topic! That said, I would like to reafirm the 38G/39G as excelent highschool g-calculators. M@ > > I must agree with va.va. After having my graphics calculator for only a > > short time I discovered that if I manipulated the coeffients the right way, > > I could make an x^3 graph look like a SIN(x) graph. To my amazemnet in 1'st > > year univeristy I discovered that what I had done ,with no mathematical > > knowlege, was to derive a simple Taylor expansion of SIN(x). The point is > > that I didnt have to know any complex maths to do it, it didnt take me hours > > to do beacuse I could plot each function in a matter of seconds, and I > > learnt by exploration the Taylor Series. I am now very greatfull that I > > learnt it this way because I have a personal understanding for the Taylor > > Series not just some mathematical mumbo jumbo that the lecturer taught us. > > To me that is the real power of a graphics calculator in learning. > > I've had a similar experience. When I was in the 6th grade, was > playing around with a four funtion calculator. I realized that (in > the language of the math that I new at the time) that the difference > between a number times its self and a number one smaller times itself > was twice the number is twice the smaller number plus one. It took > until the 9th grade when I taught myself calculus to realize that I > had discovered the concept behind the derivative way back in 6th > grade. > In the 8th grade I played around with a emulated TI-89. I had no > idea what the symbolic integrate and differentiate functions did, and > wanting to now this is why I picked up a calculus textbook. > I do not believe that now, in the 10th grade I was in any way > hurt by using calculators. I use an underpowered but required TI 83 > for my school math class but eagerly await the arrival of my HP-49g+ > so I can explore some more. I now routinely use my copy of > Mathematical to investigate mathematical oddities so I can explore the > often unexpected but correct results. > I agree that the use of any type of calculator may hurt the > weaker students who have not mastered the concepts the calculator is > used for. However, occasional use of a symbolic manipulator for > exploration will help all students expand their knowledge. > As for the original posters question, my school is so TI > dependent that I am the only students who (soon will have) has an HP > calculator. I have always been insulted when teachers spend class > time explaining how to use a calculator they barely understand > themselves, but that is a reality I face. I know how to use my TI 83 > better then any student or teacher else in my two kid high school even > though I use it only in class; preferring Mathematical or a symbolic > calculator to complete homework exercises of skills I have long since > mastered. even though I rarely do my homework manually, I scored a 98 > scientific calculator. I have no regrets to my use of a of powerful > tools that and often do have amazing benefits. ==== Ha ha ha ha! Not laughing at you, but am amused by all this! We used to make similar discoveries with a pencil and paper... and lots of erasers! Again, as I said earlier either to you or another in this thread, you obviously have a more in depth understanding of and appreciation for math than many (most?) other students. For you, use of a graphing calc is a nonissue. For the rest... well, they ought not to rest... > I must agree with va.va. After having my graphics calculator for only a > short time I discovered that if I manipulated the coeffients the right way, > I could make an x^3 graph look like a SIN(x) graph. To my amazemnet in 1'st > year univeristy I discovered that what I had done ,with no mathematical > knowlege, was to derive a simple Taylor expansion of SIN(x). The point is > that I didnt have to know any complex maths to do it, it didnt take me hours > to do beacuse I could plot each function in a matter of seconds, and I > learnt by exploration the Taylor Series. I am now very greatfull that I > learnt it this way because I have a personal understanding for the Taylor > Series not just some mathematical mumbo jumbo that the lecturer taught us. > To me that is the real power of a graphics calculator in learning. > > M@ > > >>But you seem to know your math quite well. For you, there is no >>argument; use whatever calculator you like (of course we here hope it is >>a HP RPN model), for you don't look like the type that will allow a >>skill to go rusty. But for many students, they can benefit by doing the >>manual steps. I will admit however, that on an exam, there is a need >>for time, so if your instructor allows it, use the calculator! But on >>homework or practice, I'd do it by hand, doing only what a simple >>4-function calculator... well, maybe simple scientific... can do in the >>calculator. Enjoy your studies! >> >> >> >>>I have to agree with MG, even though one has to learn the how most >>>operations of math works (algebra,trigonometry,calculus), having a >>>calculator around is good helps in two very important aspects: >>> >>>1) Having the correct answer to questions give confidence for users >>>that lack it (such as myself) >>> >>>2) Curious people will always try to find things on they own and the >>>calculator are a great way to explore the world of math. >>> >>>In my last calculus exam I had to calculate the limit of the following >>>fucntion , excuse me for the wrong notation but I have no idea what's >>>used outside Brazil: >>> >>>Lim((x-atan(x))/(x^3)),x=0) >>>As many of you already know, atan(0) is 1 so it was a simply just to >>>apply L'hospital until you got the result 1/3. >>> >>>But I have already learned series and my professor told me that many >>>of the questions involving limits are created by taking a series of a >>>familiar function and doing some operation with it. This comment is >>>always on my head and I decided to calculate that limit using series. >>> >>>I started with what we call The Geometric Series: >>>1/(1-x)=1+x+x^2+x^3+... >>> >>>I then replace x by (-x^2): >>>1/(1+x^2)=1-x^2+x^4-x^6+... >>> >>>Following that I calculated the integral of both sides: >>>atan(x)=x-(x^3/3)+(x^5/5)-(x^7/7)+... >>> >>>Putting a (-) in both sides of the equation: >>>-(atan(x))=-x+(x^3/3)-(x^5/5)+(x^7/7)+... >>> >>>Adding x: >>>x-atan(x)=(x^3/3)-(x^5/5)+(x^7/7)+... >>> >>>Diving by (x^3): >>>(x-atan(x))/(x^3)=(1/3)-(x^2/5)+(x^4/7)... >>> >>>If x=0: >>>(x-atan(x))/(x^3)=(1/3) >>> >>>Is it as easy as just doing L'hospital? No. >>>Is it worth doing limits this way during an exam? No. >>>Is it interesting to resolve limits using series? Yes. >>>Is it fun? Hell yeah :P >>> >>>Conclusion: >>>A graphing calculator can be good or bad, it's just the way you use it >>>that adds or subtracts from your mathing skills (pun is not >>>intentional :P). >>> >>>| va.va | >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>>> > university > >>>>student in Australia studying Mechatronic Engineering. In my high school >>>>years I lived in Western Australia, where we used the 38G and 39G >>>>calculators quite extensively, I also dabbled with the Casio GFX9500+ >>>> > from > >>>>personal interest. I found two things, firstly, the teachers knew very >>>> > very > >>>>little about the operation of the calculators and most of what we learnt >>>> > was > >>>>from the people around who figured it out from the manual. Secondly, >>> > some > >>>>people have a genuine interest in learning the fundamental theory of >>>>mathematics and others are quite happy to learn the process and apply it >>>>time after time. Fortunately I was interested in the theory because when >>>> > I > >>>>went moved to the Eastern States (New South Wales) to start university I >>>>found that NSW does not use graphic calculators at all. That said, in >>>> > all of > >>>>first year uni, we still have not covered the same amount of maths that >>>> > we > >>>>did in final year of high school. This is because once we have learnt >>>> > the > >>>>fundamental theory we get bogged down by doing silly things like row >>>>reductions and inverting matrices by hand which are simple to do on >>>> > advanced > >>>>calculators. The point is that I find this sort of thing pointless!! >>>> > Even > >>>>more pointless I think is learning numerical solving methods only to >>>> > have to > >>>>sit and substitute value after value after value with a scientific >>>>calculator when a graphical calculator can do it more quickly and more >>>>accurately than what I would need. Do you honestly think that outside of >>>> > uni > >>>>if I had to find a set of egien values/vectors I would do it by hand? >>>> > What > >>>>is the point? So for those who want to program the calculators and >>>> > computers > >>>>etc (which I enjoy immensely) let them learn the theory, for those who >>>>simply need to do the calculation, just do it on a graphics calculator >>>> > and > >>>>move on, what is the point of having the technology and not using it. >>>> >>>>Now as to the use of the HP48SX, I am not familiar with this exact >>>>calculator but I assume that it would take an RPN style entry. If this >>>> > is > >>>>so, then to a highschool student, it would be of very little use, I >>>> > would > >>>>personally suggest something along the lines of the 38G,39G or 39G+ or >>>> > even > >>>>the TI-83 or CasioGFX950+ these are all more suitable for this level of >>>>study. (My personal favorite is the 39G which has some great calculus >>>>functions and there is a great collection of aplets about to help >>>> > out..see > >>>>www.hphomeview.com for more info) >>>> >>>> > > ==== Ah Eugene! How could you (not you, Eugene, but the proverbial, rhetorical, plural you) not learn anything when you did your calculations manually? If you think that as a student, especially a beginning one, you will miss out on the important stuff because you're slogging through the division part of complicated algebraic set up, you're missing the point! All that manual labor conditions one to properly execute more complex operations. Try forgetting your algebra or simple multiplication tables if you want to reduce some symmetry representation or other such stuff (often necessary before one can get at the science behind a phenomenon), you'll screw it up! Middle ground?? How did those poor pre-electronics people do it? It makes for greater mental agility later when the taskmas... uh, schoolmasters make you do it the hard way first. When the student goes to college, then I'd say a powerful programmable scientific (RPN, as I'm biased) is appropriate. A graphing one, maybe later with more advanced studies, but even then... > > >>William, given today's climate, I think no one actually cares, at the >>moment, anyway, about who will design tomorrow's calculators... or auto >>safety features, for that matter. They think, some scientist is gonna >> do it! They fail to realize these little nose-picking, girl-teasing, >>my-dog-ate-my-homework-kids are going to be that some scientist. >> >>out how transcendental functions actually work may also have a point. >>I'm getting old. I seem to forget when it was that I myself was >>introduced to various things. But I still think kids should learn log >>table interpolation (good skill for other things, too!), understand by >>the end of high school (if not a bit sooner) that the trig functions are >>more than just SOH CAH TOA. But most American kids really seem to care >>just about as much their teachers on this. >> >>I told some college students that every time I fuel my car, I try to >>calculate my rough mileage per gallon in my head as I'm leaving the >>filling station, just so I don't lose the skill. They seriously and >>drily told me I was crazy. Of course, don't try this if you pulling >>back onto a very busy street or highway! I think the older generation >>of teachers might have supported such things... and manual calculation >>of square roots, which really is not all that troublesome. >> >> >> >>>oN 08-Nov-03, Ed Look said: >>> >>> >>> >>>>I gave my own son (middle school... sorta like junior high) a 39G. I >>>>also forbade him to use it until the teachers require that he does >>>> >>>> >>>Years ago, I gave my old HP-25 to my younger brothers, with the >>>stricture that it was only to be used for *checking* their homework. I >>>further explained to them that learning the underlying solution >>>processes was critical to a solid understanding of mathematics. >>> >>>I have heard some (not very bright) teachers claim that there's no need >>>to learn to manually derive a root, as anyone can use a calculator. I >>>wonder who they think will design calculators once a real understanding >>>of mathematics has been lost... >>> >>> >>> > There needs to be some sort of middle ground. I have had teachers who > taught the steps by calculator model X so you didn't learn the how and why > and couldn't figure out how to work the problems on a different model > calcualtor. Then there was the other extreme, the no calculators at all > teachers. Those would make you show every basic step on the most comlex > problems so you too so long to work the problems you didn't get to learn > as much either. I prefer to learn how to do something and practice it a > bit, then use the calculator for that so I can concentrate on learning > somethng more complex. > ==== oN 09-Nov-03, Ed Look said: > William, given today's climate, I think no one actually cares, at the > moment, anyway, about who will design tomorrow's calculators... or > auto safety features, for that matter. They think, some scientist > is gonna do it! They fail to realize these little nose-picking, > girl-teasing, my-dog-ate-my-homework-kids are going to be that some > scientist. Agreed, but that doesn't mean *we* have to buy into their idiocy! > tough out how transcendental functions actually work may also have a > point. I'm getting old. I seem to forget when it was that I myself > was introduced to various things. But I still think kids should > learn log table interpolation (good skill for other things, too!), > understand by the end of high school (if not a bit sooner) that the > trig functions are more than just SOH CAH TOA. But most American > kids really seem to care just about as much their teachers on this. My step-daughter (just turned 14, newly arrived from China, and struggling with English) was recently pointing out my errors in pre-calculus homework while reading my work upside down from across the table, so while I'm getting old, I have a lot of respect for what kids can do. During my high school years, I fell victim to the new math, and that soured me on math studies for a long time. I've recently taken them up again, and am enjoying it much, though I'm also (unfortunately) getting the idea that my short-term memory may not be what it once was! > I told some college students that every time I fuel my car, I try to > calculate my rough mileage per gallon in my head as I'm leaving the > filling station, just so I don't lose the skill. They seriously and > drily told me I was crazy. Of course, don't try this if you pulling > back onto a very busy street or highway! I think the older > generation of teachers might have supported such things... and manual > calculation of square roots, which really is not all that troublesome. My grandfather was of the opinion that any child who couldn't multiply 5 digit numbers in his head (his being the inclusive pronoun, in that era), was only marginally acquainted with arithmetic. I have been surprised to discover that intermediate algebra does not address the manual calculation of a square root, although it *does* review numerous far simpler processes. Though I dove back into math studies (after a 35 year hiatus) in order to meet the pre-reqs for some software classes I wanted, I think I've now decided to pass on the software classes in favor of continuing math. The software classes I did take were of uneven quality, and pretty boring. But then, I've been coding for over 27 years... -- Bill ==== > > Does anyone knows how I can change back the EQW button so it wont be shifted ? > ( in hp49g+ ) > On my webpage there is an example showing how to do exactly this. See http://alpage.ath.cx/hptute/ under the 'ticks and tricks' section' Here's a really simple example showing how to customise the keyboard. I use the Equation Writer a lot. However on the 49G+ the EQW key is shifted - this is annoying. There is a key marked 'SYMB' which I never use, so lets redefine SYMB to start the equation writer. 1) Firstly, we must find out the keycode for 'EQW', which is right-shift the tick key. To do this, put '0' on the stack. Then type 'WAIT' w/o the quotes then ENTER. Now press right shift then tick. Notice 43.3 appears on the stack? That's the code for the EQW key. 2) Next we must write a program that hits 'EQW' for us. It's easy... <<43.3 KEYEVAL>>. Save this as RnEQW. Run it to see that it does in fact start the equation writer. 3) Next we must find the keycode for the SYMB key. Do this as per 1 to get 44.1 4) Finally we must redefine key 44.1 to run 'RnEQW'. Create this list EXACTLY {'RnEQW' 44.1} and press ENTER. Then type STOKEYS [Enter]. Hang on, it doesn't work! The keyboard must be in USER mode for your customizations to take effect. To lock USER mode, type left-shift alpha TWICE. 'USR' should appear on the LCD. Al > > Idan ==== > Does anyone knows how I can change back the EQW button so it wont be shifted ? > ( in hp49g+ ) > Idan Gene: Make a key assignment and keep the calculator set with the USER keyboard as your default. There is a training aid on HP's website that describes how to make key assignments. You'll find it: http://www.hp.com/calculators/graphing/49gplus/scientists.html The file you want is the one labeled: The USER keyboard Lots of other goodies on that page too. Gene ==== > Unfortunately this is going to be non-trivial - it would need to > emulate the ARM processor or substitute custom emulation code for ARM > functions. > > It is possible to have a 49g+ KML using the 49G ROM. Well, guys, I've been told that a well-known contributer to this newsgroup has already written the 49g+ emulator... :-) Yoann. ==== > Well, guys, I've been told that a well-known contributer to this > newsgroup has already written the 49g+ emulator... :-) So how about some details? -- Tom Lake ==== Jason, Those of us who have been using this group for a long time often discuss the TIs and their merits or lack of them. There has been some anticipation for the working version of this emulator as recently as last month (in this very newsgroup). Mitch > > > Virtual TI-89 Pocket Emulator Current version: 1.02 Beta > > > > http://ticalcemulator.calcnews.net > > > > ROMs in http://epsstore.ti.com/ see APPS > > > > EDCG > > May I just point out, politely, that the name of this group is > comp.sys.HP48 <---- note the 'HP' bit. > > > JasonG > ==== > Jason, > Those of us who have been using this group for a long time often discuss > the TIs and their merits or lack of them. There has been some anticipation > for the working version of this emulator as recently as last month (in this > very newsgroup). > > Mitch Indeed, I have also been 'on here' for some years (probably more than 10, but I'm not sure exactly how many), using a variety of online personas as time has passed. I have noticed, over the past couple of years, that discussion on newsgroups in general has become more and more off-topic as relative newcomers like to discuss other subjects too. Without wishing to sound rude or confrontational I would point out that there is a NG dedicated to the discussion of TI equipment (of which I am also a user) and it is a very quiet group; maybe it's time to take the TI discussions to that group? Yours politely JasonG ==== If you want you use the name comp.sys.hp48, then 95% of the topics are off topic becouse they discuss hp49 and other hp calculators. I think that this is a calculator group that is biased towards rpn calculators. > > I have noticed, over the past couple of years, that discussion on > newsgroups in general has become more and more off-topic as relative > newcomers like to discuss other subjects too. Without wishing to sound > rude or confrontational I would point out that there is a NG dedicated > to the discussion of TI equipment (of which I am also a user) and it is > a very quiet group; maybe it's time to take the TI discussions to that > group? > > Yours politely > > JasonG ==== Jason, Forgive the hasty nature of my earlier reply. After giving this some thought, I must agree with your position. While there are some natural occasions where TI will be mentioned when discussing HP products, this NG is indeed meant for HP threads. This TI emulator post pertains only to TI, and probably does belong elsewhere. It's difficult to draw lines on acceptable topics, and policing the group is basically impossible, but I think your point is valid. Mitch > > > Jason, > > Those of us who have been using this group for a long time often discuss > > the TIs and their merits or lack of them. There has been some anticipation > > for the working version of this emulator as recently as last month (in this > > very newsgroup). > > > > Mitch > > Indeed, I have also been 'on here' for some years (probably more than > 10, but I'm not sure exactly how many), using a variety of online > personas as time has passed. > > I have noticed, over the past couple of years, that discussion on > newsgroups in general has become more and more off-topic as relative > newcomers like to discuss other subjects too. Without wishing to sound > rude or confrontational I would point out that there is a NG dedicated > to the discussion of TI equipment (of which I am also a user) and it is > a very quiet group; maybe it's time to take the TI discussions to that > group? > > Yours politely > > JasonG > ==== > Jason, > > Forgive the hasty nature of my earlier reply. After giving this some > thought, I must agree with your position. While there are some natural > occasions where TI will be mentioned when discussing HP products, this NG is > indeed meant for HP threads. > > This TI emulator post pertains only to TI, and probably does belong > elsewhere. It's difficult to draw lines on acceptable topics, and policing > the group is basically impossible, but I think your point is valid. > > Mitch No worries. :-) I just think that all too often there is a tendency for some posters to 'subvert' he direction of a NG. I find it particularly irritating when someone starts off like this thread, then maybe tries to get the 'HP baaaad, TI gooood' argument going again (not that i'm suggesting this is what you might have done!). It irritates me because I have both TI and HP calcs and find them both very good...maybe they are good at different things and the interface is certainly different but they are both very good. There is also a current spate of 'isn't the new HP49G+ a load of c&%p' threads...also irritating as I have a G+ and it is a superb machine! Anyway, please don't take offence at my jumping at you (metaphorically!). JasonG ==== y), using a variety of online >I have noticed, over the past couple of years, that discussion on >newsgroups in general has become more and more off-topic as relative >newcomers like to discuss other subjects too. Without wishing to sound >rude or confrontational I would point out that there is a NG dedicated >to the discussion of TI equipment (of which I am also a user) and it is >a very quiet group; maybe it's time to take the TI discussions to that >group? > >Yours politely > >JasonG I don't think so, but it's always a good idea seeing what's happening around the HP world. Daniele ==== > Dear hp49g user, > > read it with the hp49g+ and convert it to a RPL program. > > Is it possible to get the others translators, I mean KVISLF, KVIS, > etc. I would like to do the inverse process: from a RPL program in the > hp49g+ ---> translation ---> SD card --> PC and read the text program. Ok, but note that the programs are based on SYSEVAL sequences to accomplish the results that the SysRPL commands would give you. SYSEVAL simply goes to that address and executes whatever is there. If you goof on the address, or don't have valid arguments on the stack, the calculator may very well crash and lose memory. Note that the 49G and 49g+ use a different address from the (old) 48 series. I don't know about the 48gII. Does anyone know which calculator the entry points for it match? Or what the VERSION command returns? Or what a binary transfer header from a 48gII looks like? I've added code in these programs to do the argument checking, but make sure that you enter the hex values exactly as shown, and use the BYTES command to verify that the checksum and size match my results. These first four are for the 49G or 49g+. EDITDECOMP$49 %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Argument: Level 1: Any object. @ Returns: Level 1: Object decompiled to command line editor character @ string form. @ Notes: 1: For a character string argument, the result is the string @ embedded within another string. @ 2: Real numbers are as in STD display format. @ 3: Binary integers use wordsize 64. @ Checksum: # 7771h @ Size: 30.5 @ For 49G and 49g+ @ NOT for 48S/SX/G/GX/G+! << DUP DROP @ Verify that an argument exists. # 25ECEh SYSEVAL @ EDITDECOMP$ for 49G and 49g+. >> KVIS49 %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Argument: Level 1: A character string. @ Returns: Level 1: A character string translated as in Kermit ASCII @ left as is. @ Notes: 1: Respects translation mode in IOPAR. @ 2: If IOPAR doesn't exist in the HOME directory, then creates @ it with default values. @ 3: If IOPAR exists but is invalid, then errors out. @ Checksum: # 8B49h @ Size: 28. @ For 49G and 49g+ only @ NOT for 48S/SX/G/GX/G+! << ->STR @ Verify that an argument exists and @ force it to be a string. # 2F34Eh SYSEVAL @ KVIS for 49G and 49g+. >> KVISLF49 %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Argument: Level 1: A character string. @ Returns: Level 1: A character string translated as in Kermit ASCII @ SEND transfers. @ Notes: 1: Respects translation mode in IOPAR. @ 2: If IOPAR doesn't exist in the HOME directory, then creates @ it with default values. @ 3: If IOPAR exists but is invalid, then errors out. @ 4: Translates a bare NewLine (LineFeed or LF) to a @ CarriageReturn LineFeed pair, but a CRLF pair is left as is. @ Checksum: # 2AC1h @ Size: 28. @ For 49G and 49g+ @ NOT for 48S/SX/G/GX/G+! << ->STR @ Verify that an argument exists and @ force it to be a string. # 2F34Fh SYSEVAL @ KVISLF for 49G and 49g+. >> KINVIS49 %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Argument: Level 1: A character string. @ Returns: Level 1: A character string translated as in Kermit ASCII @ RECV transfers. @ Notes: 1: Respects translation mode in IOPAR. @ 2: If IOPAR doesn't exist in the HOME directory, then creates @ it with default values. @ 3: If IOPAR exists but is invalid, then errors out. @ Checksum: # CED2h @ Size: 30.5 @ For 49G and 49g+ @ NOT for 48S/SX/G/GX/G+! << ->STR @ Verify that an argument exists and @ force it to be a string. # 2F34Dh SYSEVAL @ KINVIS for 49G and 49g+. + @ Append any partial code. >> These four are for the (old) 48 series. EDITDECOMP$48 %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Argument: Level 1: Any object. @ Returns: Level 1: Object decompiled to command line editor character @ string form. @ Notes: 1: For a character string argument, the result is the string @ embedded within another string. @ 2: Real numbers are as in STD display format. @ 3: Binaryintegers use wordsize 64. @ For 48S/SX/G/GX/G+ @ NOT for 49G and 49g+! @ Checksum: # 4A5Ch @ Size: 30.5 << DUP DROP @ Verify that an argument exists. # 15A0Eh SYSEVAL @ EDITDECOMP$ for 48 series. >> KVIS48 %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Argument: Level 1: A character string. @ Returns: Level 1: A character string translated as in Kermit ASCII @ left as is. @ Notes: 1: Respects translation mode in IOPAR. @ 2: If IOPAR doesn't exist in the HOME directory, then creates @ it with default values. @ 3: If IOPAR exists but is invalid, then errors out. @ Checksum: # F12h @ Size: 28 @ For 48S/SX/G/GX/G+ @ NOT for 49G and 49g+! << ->STR @ Verify that an argument exists and @ force it to be a string. # 2FEDDh SYSEVAL @ KVIS for 48 series. >> KVISLF %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Argument: Level 1: A character string. @ Returns: Level 1: A character string translated as in Kermit ASCII @ SEND transfers. @ Notes: 1: Respects translation mode in IOPAR. @ 2: If IOPAR doesn't exist in the HOME directory, then creates @ it with default values. @ 3: If IOPAR exists but is invalid, then errors out. @ 4: Translates a bare NewLine (LineFeed or LF) to a @ CarriageReturn LineFeed pair, but a CRLF pair is left as is. @ Checksum: # D13Ah @ Size: 28 @ For 48S/SX/G/GX/G+ @ NOT for 49G and 49g+! << ->STR @ Verify that an argument exists and @ force it to be a string. # 2FEC9h SYSEVAL @ KVISLF for 48 series. >> KINVIS48 %%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); @ Argument: Level 1: A character string. @ Returns: Level 1: A character string translated as in Kermit ASCII @ RECV transfers. @ Notes: 1: Respects translation mode in IOPAR. @ 2: If IOPAR doesn't exist in the HOME directory, then creates @ it with default values. @ 3: If IOPAR exists but is invalid, then errors out. @ Checksum: # 5866h @ Size: 30.5 @ For 48S/SX/G/GX/G+ @ NOT for 49G and 49g+! << ->STR @ Verify that an argument exists and @ force it to be a string. # 3016Bh SYSEVAL @ KINVIS for 48 series. + @ Append any partial code. >> You're welcome. -- James ==== > In message , Arnaud > >> -- ( new footnote test ) > >This looks like ascii art but as I don't read in monospace font it does > >not make any sence to me > > The writing down the side says Morpheus so presumably is something to do > with the latest Matrix film. > Now that you mention it and in monospace, it kinds of look like... but it is not very good. Arnaud ==== > Ob. HP: If there were a matrix function on the 49 called 'NEO' what > should it do? It depends on if you activate it using the red button or the blue button! 8-) ==== >Apostrophes(') are needed in RPN to enter any algebraic object (also >called algebraics). Thus, they're required also in vectors. In >Algebraic mode, the apostrophes are not needed. > >G. Urroz I understand, but I don't believe that it's really necessary. Daniele ==== You can save a few keystrokes by skipping the commas -- spaces work just fine. ['x' 'y' 'z'] Matthew F. G. > > Experimenting with RPN (I need practice, because I'm a newbie of the > 49), I've noticed that, in the stack, I must to enter a vector > (without entering into the Matrix Writer), in this form > > ['x','y','z'] > > instead of (more simple I think) > > [x,y,z] > > I don't understand because apices are needed in this form, because > there's no way to think that these can be two different things. > I believe that without apices vectors can be written in an easier way. > Maybe there's some flag to change this? > > language in Italy :-) > ) > > Daniele ==== >You can save a few keystrokes by skipping the commas -- spaces work just >fine. > >['x' 'y' 'z'] > >Matthew F. G. Daniele ==== | va.va | > student in Australia studying Mechatronic Engineering. In my high school > years I lived in Western Australia, where we used the 38G and 39G > calculators quite extensively, I also dabbled with the Casio GFX9500+ from > personal interest. I found two things, firstly, the teachers knew very very > little about the operation of the calculators and most of what we learnt was > from the people around who figured it out from the manual. Secondly, some > people have a genuine interest in learning the fundamental theory of > mathematics and others are quite happy to learn the process and apply it > time after time. Fortunately I was interested in the theory because when I > went moved to the Eastern States (New South Wales) to start university I > found that NSW does not use graphic calculators at all. That said, in all of > first year uni, we still have not covered the same amount of maths that we > did in final year of high school. This is because once we have learnt the > fundamental theory we get bogged down by doing silly things like row > reductions and inverting matrices by hand which are simple to do on advanced > calculators. The point is that I find this sort of thing pointless!! Even > more pointless I think is learning numerical solving methods only to have to > sit and substitute value after value after value with a scientific > calculator when a graphical calculator can do it more quickly and more > accurately than what I would need. Do you honestly think that outside of uni > if I had to find a set of egien values/vectors I would do it by hand? What > is the point? So for those who want to program the calculators and computers > etc (which I enjoy immensely) let them learn the theory, for those who > simply need to do the calculation, just do it on a graphics calculator and > move on, what is the point of having the technology and not using it. > > Now as to the use of the HP48SX, I am not familiar with this exact > calculator but I assume that it would take an RPN style entry. If this is > so, then to a highschool student, it would be of very little use, I would > personally suggest something along the lines of the 38G,39G or 39G+ or even > the TI-83 or CasioGFX950+ these are all more suitable for this level of > study. (My personal favorite is the 39G which has some great calculus > functions and there is a great collection of aplets about to help out..see > www.hphomeview.com for more info) ==== Dear Sir, Your often modified signatures savor but of shallow wit. Please stop using them or stop posting to this newsgroup. : -- ( new footnote test ) : THE- =XQ#############################8##W#################VY^'- S : H '3W#############################W###########DAQQ#@Y?^ n : E ]UW#######################################M%QW@` u : #AQWQ$, ?4SMQ#####################################HXMM~ s : ??YMMM##>-=?mMQ###################################MKXYQ#> | : ^YXY==<|nAUQ##Q####Q@M#######MQ##############MR11XQ#L- -_-- s : -,,-`=iI*>!3VSWM#####Q##M######Q############@MD#VVuQQ#Gn,- -,.xs:<-m : }$H&a^`4t`=!YIUHMQW######M##H################Q#WAQ#######$m$ddIdH!!=-a : `dQ#?` .dQ==>?iI193H9M###@HQX9HRM###############Q#########Q##WPqdIY--k : ,#@= @##b='=|V*=x9Q@MH8XW%S43VUQ##########Q#############@M@8sX%T>=`=a : _]W$_- `####k=:<:?1zVSUSYV2t%313dAM########################dWX1z:=^=`==| : I==xY49UM################@9#Q@~=-` ` a : `GY##NQ$aaQ#==s?H114+1*-:=!Y4Q@WQWQ#########MMK!!'` _-`=-=B : e '9##Q######Y>=:>{34HqY3!=*==>3K9#Q#N#####Q#Q#M9*^` ._,===-:=- y : l `YHQ####9~` ^==TT3HSUoI:I<:)T9XQ#H@AMQ####D#h!=` -,nl|Il:=:= - | : f '!????` `-`''=- --````- o : e r ``=_-=:*IsY1Y8dVqs|?V1I=Y!<===`-`-- `- h : # o - ^=:'!:iY%9QP3G}T!x7:|===.`= `-- - - --_.b : # :`-``==:=+=xhz|(:i!`''-'==-'- - - --_.,;aQ## : ------------------------------------------------------------------------ : ==== TITLE: N - - - ------:###############DDVVI*==-- A O - - - - - ---- `=]0#################UUV1+:=`--- - . S- - - - - - -=+]##################DD0%1l+:=- - - - - H E - -- - - - -- `=]W#################UU0U11l)+::'=-- - - E . - - - - --=l4##################8D%0Il+::==='--- - R O - - - - - -=:]####################O8V1l!:===-__''--- - - - O F - - -- ---;dQ###############@HHXYVYT!!:==-'-------- - - - # # - - ---- iiAWQ#############@H%YYTTT!T===_=_'------- --- - - - - - - -,,UgQ#############@HVYTT!T:!==_'-_--_---------- - - - -- -------=iqq###############MCYT::==:==='''----------- - --- - --_=`---=ijw#############QQ99X1):=='==-'--------- - -- --- ---- - - - ---``-.ijqd#############WHHTT?T:==-=--------- - ---- - - --- - - - - '---=ijUWQ#########@HXYYY?T!+:===_'-`-- ---- -- - - - - -- -- -- - '!:DQ###Q#####0U11+>=`--- --==:==`--- - - - - - - - - - - - ------ -- )#########Q8ll=='-- -====-- --- - -- - - - - -- - ########D0{!='-- `-=+== - - - - - - - -- -- -B ######D%{!=- - - -=!::_----- - - - - -- - y ####D%{:=- - - =::==-- - - - ---. ###QE==- - -=}V{+=- --- - - - -P #MWY>-` ---ijXVV(==_-- - - - -h #9X:=- - - _-,i)39Y1(==--- - - - -o #1V=`- - --;;ns+TTT1*:=_---- -- - - o #11=`- - --,xVVV%;IlI1l+>=--- -- - -h #I1=_--- - - - -,adU%X00XmnV11+>:==--- - -- - - b #IIi>=-- - --.,ud#Q#QQWW00U%m1l|!:=_=---- - - - - - # > Dear Sir, > > Your often modified signatures savor but of shallow wit. Please stop > using them or stop posting to this newsgroup. > What are you talking about? savor? shallow? wit? ==== Although addressed to the entire group, this message is intended exclusively for idan. Idan, you stated in regard to Laurie's response that just because they say they check every unit ? i dont really belive them, if you ask me... Sir, I come from a place in the world, the states of the old Confederate States of America, where such insulting remarks as yours, especially addressed to a lady, can and often will get you killed. You have seen on the news, I am sure, what we Americans do when we get mad. Your insulting remark should be withdrawn and a public apology posted here addressed to Laurie. Then you should, perhaps, keep your mouth shut here on this newsgroup for about six months. Deo vindice, James F. Chumbley ==== Idan, you stated in regard to Laurie's response that just because they say > they check every unit ? i dont really belive them, if you ask me... > He said HE didn't believe him personally, he never accused her of lying, just that he didn't believe her > Sir, I come from a place in the world, the states of the old Confederate > States of America, where such insulting remarks as yours, especially > addressed to a lady, can and often will get you killed. You have seen on the > news, I am sure, what we Americans do when we get mad. Your insulting remark > should be withdrawn and a public apology posted here addressed to Laurie. > Where do you live, compton, or let me guess, alabama???? Where I come from (USA) we respect other peoples opinions, not threaten bodily harm if we disagree. And as for bragging about what We Americans do when we get mad, speak for yourself. You are a blubbering idiot. Please don't group me into your backwards hillbilly mentality. Your name fits you well. > Then you should, perhaps, keep your mouth shut here on this newsgroup for > about six months. > I'm an American, do i have to shut up for six months as well? I can't even believe you know how to operate that 49g+ > Deo vindice, > James F. Chumbley ==== > a public apology posted here Jim, After reviewing my previous post, I realize I was much too harsh in my critique of your message. Instead of reacting, I should have responded in a more civil manner. I apologize for continuing a downward spiral of insults. My mistake was getting involved in something that didn't pertain to me personally. Feeling convicted, Matt ==== > Sir, I come from a place in the world, the states of the old Confederate > States of America, where such insulting remarks as yours, especially > addressed to a lady, can and often will get you killed. Even though things in this country are not as good as when I came here, I don't believe they are quite as bad as that. > You have seen on the news, I am sure, what we Americans do when we get mad. Things that are most un-democratic... I'm not taking a side in the issue in question, but I just had to reply to some of these silly remarks. -- Bhuvanesh ==== > Idan, you stated in regard to Laurie's response that just because they say > they check every unit ? i dont really belive them, if you ask me... I believe Mr. Chumbley has his cart before his horse. Idan is not responding to Laurie at all, but rather to the text at the bottom Classic Calculator's 49G+ pricing page (see: http://cnb-host4.clickandbuild.com/cnb/shop/classiccalculators?listPos=15&pr oductID=51&search=&op=catalogue-product_info-null&prodCategoryID=1). To quote from Idan's message, he said i got into the classic calculator site and saw that their price ... Apparently Mr. Chumbley doesn't know how to read a thread-tree either. If he did, he would see Laurie's response is linked Idan's message, not the other way around as he mistakenly believes. To see what I'm talking about Mr. Chumbley, please review the thread-tree on the left-half of the page at: http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=874q x9srz8.fsf%40exal.austin.rr.com&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dgroup%253Acomp.sys.hp48%26 hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26site%3Dgroups . Clearly, Laurie's reply in response to Idan's post. If he knew how to read the tree, Mr. Chumbley would have replied to Idan, not to Laurie as he did. By his own words he says, this message is intended exclusively for idan.. Then why not reply to Idan's post? > Sir, I come from a place in the world, the states of the old Confederate > States of America, where such insulting remarks as yours, especially > addressed to a lady, So you think Idan's insulting remarks are addressed to a lady the text of Idan's message? Was it the incriminating words their price, they say, or belive them? >can and often will get you killed. Are you for real? I'm friggin' embarrassed they let people like you out! I'm glad you're from the south.. do me a favor, stay there! >You have seen on the > news, I am sure, what we Americans do when we get mad. Your insulting remark > should be withdrawn and a public apology posted here addressed to Laurie. Again, cart before the horse. How about admitting your ignorance and instead, publically apologize to Idan? Laurie seems to be holding up just fine. > Then you should, perhaps, keep your mouth shut here on this newsgroup for > about six months. Please head your own advice, Mr. Chumbley. You've embarrassed the nation plenty. This one's going to take a while to dig out of. Start diggin'. > > Deo vindice, > James F. Chumbley Yes, God will vindicate the rest of us. Matt Kernal ==== > Are you for real? I'm friggin' embarrassed they let people like you > out! I'm glad you're from the south.. do me a favor, stay there! OK, let's not start a flame war, please. -- Bhuvanesh ==== > Sir, I come from a place in the world, the states of the old Confederate > States of America, where such insulting remarks as yours, especially > addressed to a lady, can and often will get you killed. You have seen on the > news, I am sure, what we Americans do when we get mad. Your insulting remark > should be withdrawn and a public apology posted here addressed to Laurie. > > Then you should, perhaps, keep your mouth shut here on this newsgroup for > about six months. Are you in fact inside a red balloon, Sir? ==== > Although addressed to the entire group, this message is intended exclusively > for idan. > Here I am > Idan, you stated in regard to Laurie's response that just because they say > they check every unit ? i dont really belive them, if you ask me... > Please look again - Laurie responded me and not the opposite. I didn't response her letter at all. > Sir, I come from a place in the world, the states of the old Confederate > States of America, where such insulting remarks as yours, especially > addressed to a lady, can and often will get you killed. Again - As I already told you - I didnt write anything in response. She responded me. Besides, It is my right to doubt their service. And it is my right to say their price is too high. It is my right to tell others what I think and everyone is invited to oppose me or agree with me. It is my right to doubt CLASSIC CALCS as much as I want to especially when I see that their price is higher then every dealer in the US. I am sure they have their reasons but in my opinion - there is a limit for everything. Laurie isn't GOD and she is welcome to doubt me back - as she did. I expect from an Amesrican to respect the FREEDOM OF SPEECH. What the fact that she is a lady got to do with it ? ...can often get you killed - very mature. very. You have seen on the > news, I am sure, what we Americans do when we get mad. Your insulting remark > should be withdrawn and a public apology posted here addressed to Laurie. I am glad you are proud of your country. I dont need to apologize to anyone - I didnt insult nobody. I do not withdraw any remark. My remarks were for your own good. You can take it or not. And again, Mr. Listen carefully. Open your immature big ears and listen : I DID NOT RESPOND TO HER - SHE RESPONDED TO ME !!!!!!!!!! Got it ?! or should I explain you again ? > Then you should, perhaps, keep your mouth shut here on this newsgroup for > about six months. Dont you shut anybody's mouth. Especially when nothing insulting has been said. I know that CLASSIC CALCS are mad about my remarks - its quite obvious - THEY WANT TO SELL. And I care more about the people in this forum than Classic Calc's frofits. And for you, Mr. Mad American - I am lucky to know so many americans so I know guys like you do not represent all americans. Grow up dude. P.S For all the group : I believe Classic Calcs do check each and every unit carefuly. but it sure cost more. I bought last night the hp49g+ from Samson Cables and I will inform you about the quality of the product and about the service. However, I paid 145$ and 26$ for shipping - quite fair price if you ask me. I have nothing to do with any of the companies. all I want is a good price and good service and a working hp49g+. here's the address of Samson Cables : http://www.samsoncables.com/index.htm See ya Idan ==== > I bought last night the hp49g+ from Samson Cables and I will inform > you about the quality of the product and about the service. However, I > paid 145$ and 26$ for shipping - quite fair price if you ask me. > I have nothing to do with any of the companies. all I want is a good > price and good service and a working hp49g+. here's the address of > Samson Cables : Just for you to understand my position, $26 would not be far from the fee I would have to pay just to clear customs, even before paying customs duty. Arnaud PS: Don't let those crazy Americans shut your mouth. Please continue contributing Cancel-Lock: sha1:dxHoZmm9e91FAWUhkQp5L3xwCe4= ==== >> I bought last night the hp49g+ from Samson Cables and I will inform >> you about the quality of the product and about the service. However, I >> paid 145$ and 26$ for shipping - quite fair price if you ask me. >> I have nothing to do with any of the companies. all I want is a good >> price and good service and a working hp49g+. here's the address of >> Samson Cables : > > Just for you to understand my position, $26 would not be far from the > fee I would have to pay just to clear customs, even before paying > customs duty. > > Arnaud > > PS: Don't let those crazy Americans shut your mouth. Please continue > contributing Dang! I was afraid Americans in general would get stereotyped by this guy. Arnaud, please don't generalize. Very few Americans feel like that Chumbley fellow. I am very patriotic and a USMC veteran as well a product of the South (Confederacy, as it were). But I don't feel have the same view as Chumbley. Idan, thanks for recognizing that we are *not* all like that. -Al A. -- ~/.signature ==== > Dang! I was afraid Americans in general would get stereotyped by this > guy. Arnaud, please don't generalize. Very few Americans feel like > that Chumbley fellow. I am very patriotic and a USMC veteran as well a > product of the South (Confederacy, as it were). But I don't feel have > the same view as Chumbley. > I know quite a few nice Americans and quite a few crazy Europeans or Asians or Africans (No Penguins though) so I am not going to start generalising now. Arnaud ==== > Dang! I was afraid Americans in general would get stereotyped by this > guy. Arnaud, please don't generalize. Very few Americans feel like > that Chumbley fellow. I am very patriotic and a USMC veteran as well a > product of the South (Confederacy, as it were). But I don't feel have > the same view as Chumbley. I agree. I still have the overall impression that the typical American is quite friendly. Most Americans I know (including myself :)) oppose Bush on most issues, and are not the we will do exactly what we want type. The US has done some things that are wrong, but it's time to put those things behind us. As Gandhi said, An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. Bhuvanesh. something I oughtn't, I apologize. ==== oN 12-Nov-03, Bhuvanesh said: > I agree. I still have the overall impression that the typical American > is quite friendly. Most Americans I know (including myself :)) oppose > Bush on most issues, and are not the we will do exactly what we want > type. The US has done some things that are wrong, but it's time to put > those things behind us. As Gandhi said, An eye for an eye only ends > up making the whole world blind. Don't confuse the views in a locality (yours) with the prevailing views in the country. Much of the country is conservative, and even in California (where I reside), the liberals are found primarily in the coastal cities. For my part, I agree with much of what Bush has done, and of what he proposes to do. I disagree with his imposition of steel tariffs (they never work as intended, and the consequences are often dire), but he's likely to rescind those soon. It's worth noting that most programs proposed by liberals achieve the opposite of the claims made for them. As to claims of people being killed for admittedly rude language, that isn't likely to happen (even in the South0, other than in drunken brawls. -- Bill ==== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Idan, After reading your last posting, I don't think I have explained what gave such offence to Laurie and to me. Please allow me to try to explain better. Early in this thread, posting #3, Arnaud said that he bought his 49g+ from Classic Calculators. Later, you said in posting #7 that just because they say they check every unit -- I DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THEM. In English, this is exactly the same thing as calling Laurie a LIAR directly to her face. Ask anyone to confirm this. In English, there are just a few things that a person can say that will almost always provoke a fight or cause a violent reaction. One example is the hated word nigger. Other examples could be written down here. The idea is that if you say one of these fighting words to another person, he is, under our laws, not guilty of any crime when he hits you on the nose or worse. Calling someone a liar is also using one of the worst of the fighting words. People whose English is not perfect should be taught NEVER to call someone a liar. An example of how offensive this was to Laurie is that by calling her a liar you made her so mad that in five locations she used double exclamation marks and double question marks. British subjects are usually so reserved that they seldom use any exclamation marks. But she used double ones: !! !! !! On the question of Freedom of Speech: It is a cherished right, but it has limitations. Under this right you may NOT call someone a liar. This is a fighting word that is NOT protected. I have written more than enough. I hope I have explained why it hurt Laurie's feelings so very much to be called a liar. If you are sorry that you hurt her feelings, then you should tell her that you are sorry. ==== > In English, this is exactly the same thing as calling Laurie a > LIAR directly to her face. Ask anyone to confirm this. My English is far from being perfect, but in my opinion I don't believe her does not necessarily mean she is lying. For example, I don't believe you when you say that one might be killed for saying such words in the State where you come from. And I'm not saying you are lying. It's just that I believe that you are wrong. There must be more serious reasons behind these crimes: It's like blaming bowling for what happened at Columbine. I don't know how meticulously she or they test each unit. There are so many ways and HP calculator can be defective nowadays ... I used to spend hours at the store examining several units before buying! (Now, when I want to buy an HP calculator, I buy it from a non-EU website, this way I don't have to pay customs or taxes --sorry, I still don't know why-- and I don't have to read what a translator I don't believe they test each unit as carefully as I would do it. For example, did they know that the built-in keyboard test is not reliable? http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=448fbd7d.0311041027.2dad440c%40posting. google.com > One example is the hated word nigger. I do believe that. They have good reasons to kill us all :-) ==== > > An example of how offensive this was to Laurie is that by calling > her a liar you made her so mad that in five locations she used double > exclamation marks and double question marks. British subjects are > usually so reserved that they seldom use any exclamation marks. But she > used double ones: !! !! !! > Well, isnt that a little bit exagerated?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? Just my opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > On the question of Freedom of Speech: It is a cherished right, but > it has limitations. Under this right you may NOT call someone a liar. > This is a fighting word that is NOT protected. Still exagerated IMO... If he thinks shes a liar so what?? nothing proves hes right. Actually most things point to him being wrong. > > I have written more than enough. I hope I have explained why it hurt > Laurie's feelings so very much to be called a liar. If you are sorry > that you hurt her feelings, then you should tell her that you are sorry. > -- Laurie's feelings were hurt?????? OMG!! Are you just assuming that?? You know in school, college, work, or whatever you do, its quite common to hear insults way worse then liar. If feelings got hurt by such, then im sure that any person would live with hurt feelings. Personally i doubt anyone could get through life when such nonesense gets to them. I doubt laurie put to much attention to it. ==== > Idan, > > After reading your last posting, I don't think I have explained what > gave such offence to Laurie and to me. Please allow me to try to explain > better. > Early in this thread, posting #3, Arnaud said that he bought his > 49g+ from Classic Calculators. > and every unit before sending them out to customers. > Later, you said in posting #7 that just because they say they check > every unit -- I DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THEM. > > In English, this is exactly the same thing as calling Laurie a LIAR > directly to her face. Ask anyone to confirm this. > > In English, there are just a few things that a person can say that > will almost always provoke a fight or cause a violent reaction. One > example is the hated word nigger. Other examples could be written down > here. The idea is that if you say one of these fighting words to > another person, he is, under our laws, not guilty of any crime when he > hits you on the nose or worse. Calling someone a liar is also using > one of the worst of the fighting words. People whose English is not > perfect should be taught NEVER to call someone a liar. > > An example of how offensive this was to Laurie is that by calling > her a liar you made her so mad that in five locations she used double > exclamation marks and double question marks. British subjects are > usually so reserved that they seldom use any exclamation marks. But she > used double ones: !! !! !! > > On the question of Freedom of Speech: It is a cherished right, but > it has limitations. Under this right you may NOT call someone a liar. > This is a fighting word that is NOT protected. > > I have written more than enough. I hope I have explained why it hurt > Laurie's feelings so very much to be called a liar. If you are sorry > that you hurt her feelings, then you should tell her that you are sorry. > -- It is funny to hear somebody in the parlament, TV, radio, newspapers, etc. calling the former US President, Bill Clinton, or the british Prime Minister, Tony Blair, to be a BIG LIAR (on his face, before them) and in PERFECT english and they didn't hit anybody on the nose (or worse). And we are talking of the representants of a full nation, not just a private person. Cancel-Lock: sha1:+ALq9y80LqVJEWR7H+CZL+X0NzY= ==== > Idan, > > After reading your last posting, I don't think I have explained what > gave such offence to Laurie and to me. Please allow me to try to explain > better. > Early in this thread, posting #3, Arnaud said that he bought his > 49g+ from Classic Calculators. > and every unit before sending them out to customers. > Later, you said in posting #7 that just because they say they check > every unit -- I DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THEM. > > In English, this is exactly the same thing as calling Laurie a LIAR > directly to her face. Ask anyone to confirm this. Indeed this could be the case. However I do not think it was meant in a personally malicious manner. But, nevertheless, it was probably best left unsaid. > > In English, there are just a few things that a person can say that > will almost always provoke a fight or cause a violent reaction. One > example is the hated word nigger. Other examples could be written down > here. The idea is that if you say one of these fighting words to > another person, he is, under our laws, not guilty of any crime when he > hits you on the nose or worse. Calling someone a liar is also using > one of the worst of the fighting words. People whose English is not > perfect should be taught NEVER to call someone a liar. Be careful not to confuse anyone with what is opinion and what is fact. Striking ANYONE in a situation other than to prevent harm to yourself or someone else you are defending, is against the law. In no case I am aware of is it considered legal to hit someone for calling you a name. Heck, this is what separates us from countries where adultry can get you stoned, stealing can get your hand removed, talking out against your government can get you executed. Granted, calling someone a liar in the US is grounds for being angry, and possibly litigation in court, but never for physical violence. As a matter of fact, it is against the law to even threaten to kill someone. > > An example of how offensive this was to Laurie is that by calling > her a liar you made her so mad that in five locations she used double > exclamation marks and double question marks. British subjects are > usually so reserved that they seldom use any exclamation marks. But she > used double ones: !! !! !! The use of !! means nothing. I have seen countless folks on the internet who make judicious use of punctuation marks. Many also do not even use them at all. Some never capitalize. Some use all caps. This is rather weak point to make becuse it does not necessarily indicate state of mind. At most it might indicate lack of education. > > On the question of Freedom of Speech: It is a cherished right, but > it has limitations. Under this right you may NOT call someone a liar. > This is a fighting word that is NOT protected. Here you are correct. It could technically be considered slander but fortunately our system of justice provides the judge a way to determine if the claim of slander is frivolous or justified. Calling someone a checked each unit, I will believe her because I have no reason not to. However if she didn't, she lied. > > I have written more than enough. I hope I have explained why it hurt > Laurie's feelings so very much to be called a liar. If you are sorry > that you hurt her feelings, then you should tell her that you are sorry. Best, -Al Arduengo -- ~/.signature ==== >> In English, there are just a few things that a person can say that >>will almost always provoke a fight or cause a violent reaction. One >>example is the hated word nigger. Other examples could be written down >>here. The idea is that if you say one of these fighting words to >>another person, he is, under our laws, not guilty of any crime when he >>hits you on the nose or worse. Calling someone a liar is also using >>one of the worst of the fighting words. People whose English is not >>perfect should be taught NEVER to call someone a liar. > > > Be careful not to confuse anyone with what is opinion and what is fact. > Striking ANYONE in a situation other than to prevent harm to yourself or > someone else you are defending, is against the law. In no case I am > aware of is it considered legal to hit someone for calling you a name. > Heck, this is what separates us from countries where adultry can get you > stoned, stealing can get your hand removed, talking out against your > government can get you executed. > > Granted, calling someone a liar in the US is grounds for being angry, > and possibly litigation in court, but never for physical violence. As a > matter of fact, it is against the law to even threaten to kill someone. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that it's a matter of state, not federal, law. I expect that in Michigan, such provocation might, at best, be considered as a mitigating factor to be considered when sentencing someone for an act of physical violence. Heck, around here, it seems that a person can't even resort to physical violence when confronting a burglar in his own home, unless the burglar uses (or makes a credible threat to use) physical violence first. But maybe it's different where Jim lives. -- James ==== > > Heck, around here, > it seems that a person can't even resort to physical violence when > confronting a burglar in his own home, unless the burglar uses (or makes > a credible threat to use) physical violence first. But maybe it's > different where Jim lives. > > I'm planning to move into the USA in which state it is still legal to shoot a burglar right away? In which state it is legal to A) carry a concealed weapon B) carry a gun openly ==== > I'm planning to move into the USA > in which state it is still legal to shoot a burglar right away? > In which state it is legal to > A) carry a concealed weapon > B) carry a gun openly The State of Missouri would be a good choice. In Missouri you don't need a license to own a gun, and they are in the process of passing a concealed-carry law. Actually it already was passed, then the Dem Governor vetoed it, then they overrode his veto, than some city judge ruled it unconstitutional, apparently never having read the Second Amendment to the Constitiution, but now it is on its way to a higher-up judge and will most likely be settled very soon. I live in Illinois, which requires a firarms owner identification (FOID) to possess any firearm, but the thing only costs something like $10 and the only requirements are that you not be a felon or certifiably insane to get one. Mine is expired actually, I need to renew it. You can't buy ammo without a FOID in Illinois, but I normally just buy it in Missouri anyway, it is just 20 miles away. You can shoot anyone invading your property assuming that you can convince a jury that you believed your life was endangered, and any reasonable person will believe that their life is endangered if someone is breaking into their home. Technically I could get in trouble if I were to shoot someone without a valid FOID, but that would only be a misdemeanor, like speeding. I will be living in Missouri this January, so I will probably not bother renewing my FOID. ==== > I'm planning to move into the USA Are you serious or just kidding? -- Bhuvanesh ==== > I'm planning to move into the USA > in which state it is still legal to shoot a burglar right away? > In which state it is legal to > A) carry a concealed weapon > B) carry a gun openly My Sister-in-law lives in Georgia and, in the Atlanta suburb in which they live, you are REQUIRED to own a gun! -- Tom Lake If it wasn't for the bullet in my pocket, the Bible would have killed me! ==== > > > > > Heck, around here, > > it seems that a person can't even resort to physical violence when > > confronting a burglar in his own home, unless the burglar uses (or makes > > a credible threat to use) physical violence first. But maybe it's > > different where Jim lives. > > > > > I'm planning to move into the USA > in which state it is still legal to shoot a burglar right away? > In which state it is legal to > A) carry a concealed weapon > B) carry a gun openly > http://www.packing.org This site has many answers. ==== > I'm planning to move into the USA > in which state it is still legal to shoot a burglar right away? > In which state it is legal to > A) carry a concealed weapon > B) carry a gun openly I'm not aware of any state in which it is legal to use deadly force against *anyone* (burglar or not) except to protect yourself (or another innocent person) from imminent death or serious bodily harm. However, many states (especially Southern states) issue permits for carrying concealed firearms. Quite a few states recognize each other's permits. (For instance, my Alabama permit is good in Georgia, Mississippi, Florida, Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, North Dakota, Michigan, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Alaska.) I think there are at least a few states that allow open carry without a permit, and Vermont doesn't even require a permit for a concealed weapon. -- Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== > > I'm planning to move into the USA > > in which state it is still legal to shoot a burglar right away? > > In which state it is legal to > > A) carry a concealed weapon > > B) carry a gun openly > > I'm not aware of any state in which it is legal to use deadly force > against *anyone* (burglar or not) except to protect yourself (or another > innocent person) from imminent death or serious bodily harm. This threat me be implied if the burglar enters your house by stealth, especially at night when the occupants are likely to be asleep. Generally if it is dark, in the home, it is not required to verify the presence of a weapon to shoot. ==== > > > > I'm planning to move into the USA > > > in which state it is still legal to shoot a burglar right away? > > > In which state it is legal to > > > A) carry a concealed weapon > > > B) carry a gun openly > > > > I'm not aware of any state in which it is legal to use deadly force > > against *anyone* (burglar or not) except to protect yourself (or another > > innocent person) from imminent death or serious bodily harm. > > This threat me be implied if the burglar enters your house by stealth, > especially at night when the occupants are likely to be asleep. Generally if > it is dark, in the home, it is not required to verify the presence of a > weapon to shoot. Just like in the Bible In Finland you need to let the burglar to hit you once... or at least that seems to be the general idea in this too socialistic country OR rather too liberal country, it'.8as liberals who want to tap on the head of the poor criminals (not until proven guilty) and protect them Who protects the ordinary citizen against the perpetrators and huligans? No one in Finland... ==== X > (For instance, my Alabama permit is good in Georgia, Mississippi, Florida, > Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Colorado, Wyoming, > Idaho, Utah, North Dakota, Michigan, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Alaska.) > I think there are at least a few states that allow open carry without a > permit, and Vermont doesn't even require a permit for a concealed weapon. A lot of choises then, Vermont being the best? ==== > X >> (For instance, my Alabama permit is good in Georgia, Mississippi, Florida, >> Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Colorado, Wyoming, >> Idaho, Utah, North Dakota, Michigan, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Alaska.) >> I think there are at least a few states that allow open carry without a >> permit, and Vermont doesn't even require a permit for a concealed weapon. > A lot of choises then, Vermont being the best? In terms of firearms laws, Vermont probably is the best. However, other than the fact that they have beautiful foliage in the autumn and lots of good maple syrup, I don't know anything else about what it would be like to live in that state. :-) -- Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== Veli-Pekka Nousiainen replied: > >> > > >>Heck, around here, >>it seems that a person can't even resort to physical violence when >>confronting a burglar in his own home, unless the burglar uses (or makes >>a credible threat to use) physical violence first. But maybe it's >>different where Jim lives. >> >> > > I'm planning to move into the USA > in which state it is still legal to shoot a burglar right away? > In which state it is legal to > A) carry a concealed weapon > B) carry a gun openly ways to solve these issues. :^/ Humorous answer: Texas would be your best bet. Rich ==== > Sir, I come from a place in the world, the states of the old Confederate > States of America, where such insulting remarks as yours, especially > addressed to a lady, can and often will get you killed. You have seen on the > news, I am sure, what we Americans do when we get mad. And some people wonder why many people around the world hate Americans. -- Tom Lake God bless Jeff Davis! ==== Folks, Pardon this off-topic question. But can someone refer me to a newsgroup to sell a fine HP-41cx and some associated goodies? Bill wboas@nyx.net ==== > Folks, > Pardon this off-topic question. But can someone refer me to a newsgroup to > sell a fine HP-41cx and some associated goodies? This is as good a place as any. Also, you can place a free classified ad at http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/adforum.cgi (which is the HP Classified Ads section at the Museum of HP Calculators). -- Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) | When your tail's in a crack, you improvise fwbrown@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give | your pelt to the trapper. e^(i*pi) = -1 -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, Silverlock ==== > Pardon this off-topic question. But can someone refer me to a newsgroup to > sell a fine HP-41cx and some associated goodies? Try the HP Museum Classifieds forum. It's not a newsgroup, but I think it is what you are looking for. They have a pretty active message board. http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/adforum.cgi HTH, -Ben ==== i try a comparison 49g/49g+, with thi sexpression on fast3D: 100*3.1415*sin((x^2+y^2)^(1/2))/((x^2+y^2)^(1/2)) setting WIN: xmin=ymin=-6 xmax=ymax=6 zmin=-100 zmax=300 step indep=20 depnd=20 I obtained the graph after 30 sec in 49g+ and 67-68 sec in 49g You? How many time to obtain the same graph?? thanks for your answers bye p.s. 239Kb there were free in directory home both 49g+ and 49g ==== Nice graph. My results with a lot of memory free are as follows: 49g - 1:11:00 49g+ - 0:30:00 TI-89 - 1:12:00 I only used a emulator on my computer for both the hp49g and ti89, so I don't know how accurate it is. The rotation animation speed seem to be about the same on both the 49g and ti89. The 49g+ shows no lag at all in this task. Dave ==== Bonjour .88 tous, j'ai d.8ej.88 post.8e sur ce forum, le probl.8fme suivant : l'heure sur la calculatrice .8evolue compl.8ftement al.8eatoirement, il arrive m.90me qu'apr.8fs un r.8eglage de l'heure celle-ci ne soit pas celle r.8egl.8ee. J'utilise la ROM 1.22 Quelqu'un a t il d.8ej.88 rencontr.8e ce type de probl.8fme et y a t il une solution ? ==== Now that Christmas is coming I started to think to buy one of the new 49g+ (probably from Eric Rechlin of hpcalc.org, who assured me he can ship worldwide). I have a pair of questions regarding comunications that I'd like to know: 1- Can 2 HP49G+ communicate? I mean, with a usb-usb cable? Or only with IR? 2- Can a HP49G+ and a HP48G communicate via IR? 3- Can I connect the HP49G+ to the pc and receive and send file? I've readed that the HP49G+ can not act as a server: it means I can't upload files created on my calculator to my pc (that's a pity if you do some calc programming)? 4- Can I achieve the task on point 3 using a simple usb->serial cable? For sure I'll wait until a new official ROM (or an unofficial one, but I strongly hope hp don't discontinue the product support after only 3 months from launching it :oD) will be released fixing BIG bugs as earthquakes, battery life (better than now it's possible?) and possibily IR range (or it depends only on the hardware?). Kickaha ==== > Now that Christmas is coming I started to think to buy one of the new 49g+ > (probably from Eric Rechlin of hpcalc.org, who assured me he can ship > worldwide). I can confirm that. Eric is very fast and friendly too. In less than ten days I got mine in Italy, at a modest price, much cheaper than here even including shipping costs (well, the fact that the EUR / US$ exchange is currently very good helps). ==== > 1- Can 2 HP49G+ communicate? I mean, with a usb-usb cable? Or only > with IR? Only by IR.. Works very well if the distance between the two calcs is not greater than 3cm >2- Can a HP49G+ and a HP48G communicate via IR? No it can't. Only IrDA and Red-Eye (The printer protocol) are supported by the hardware. >3- Can I connect the HP49G+ to the pc and receive and send file? I've >readed > that the HP49G+ can not act as a server: it means I can't upload files > created on my calculator to my pc (that's a pity if you do some calc > programming)? Of course you can... You just put the calculator in server mode (the new conn4x is using the Xmodem server) and you can grab whatever files you want from your calculator. It's really fast. Even the ARCHIVE/RESTORE command can use xmodem now.. > 4- Can I achieve the task on point 3 using a simple usb->serial cable? No. At least not with adapter you find on the market. Current USB-Serial adaptor convert a USB host port into a serial port. Not a usb client port (like the one on the 49G+) ==== JYA give the following info: > > 1- Can 2 HP49G+ communicate? I mean, with a usb-usb cable? Or only > > with IR? > Only by IR.. Works very well if the distance between the two calcs is > not greater than 3cm 3cm? To me it seems that the calcs should be to close to comunicate. Is something wanted for the US. examinations or simply the new CPU has a high power-cost and the batteries couldn't spend more for the IR? > >2- Can a HP49G+ and a HP48G communicate via IR? > No it can't. Only IrDA and Red-Eye (The printer protocol) are supported > by the hardware. That's a pity. Do you think it will be possible to implement this via software? > >3- Can I connect the HP49G+ to the pc and receive and send file? I've > >readed > > that the HP49G+ can not act as a server: it means I can't upload files > > created on my calculator to my pc (that's a pity if you do some calc > > programming)? > Of course you can... > You just put the calculator in server mode (the new conn4x is using the > Xmodem server) and you can grab whatever files you want from your > calculator. It's really fast. Even the ARCHIVE/RESTORE command can use > xmodem now.. Ok, it is good to hear. > > 4- Can I achieve the task on point 3 using a simple usb->serial cable? > No. At least not with adapter you find on the market. Current USB-Serial > adaptor convert a USB host port into a serial port. Not a usb client > port (like the one on the 49G+) I imagined that... anyway, maybe via software? Thx for your answers Kickaha ==== Bonjour, Je suis en train de programmer un ensemble d'outils pour estimer la perte de charge dans les tuyauteries bas.8ee sur diff.8erents bouquins et particuli.8frement Idel'Cik. Avez vous connaissance de programmes similaires ? Merci ==== Correction: information. HP will not replace your faulty HP 48GII with an HP 49G+. Instead, they will ship you an HP 48GII when the new units are ready (target date: middle January 2004). So, hold on to your HP 48GIIs, call 1-800-HP-INVENT (I guess this number is only valid for the good old USA), which is their customer support line, ask to talk to calculator support, and they will take your name, address, phone number, and HP 48GII serial number, and give you a case number for reference. Then, when the HP 48GII flawless units are available in January, they will send you a replacement. If they want the old units it's not clear that they want the faulty units back. G. Urroz ==== I have a PNY SD card that probably was shipped with write protect on. When I tried to save to it, I received a disk protected error. I tried sliding the tab and got the same error. I tried formatting the card with the tab in its original position and it was successful, but still would not write. I moved the tab back and it successfully formatted again! Alas it still would not write. Finally, I moved the tab close to the end of the card (not as shipped), formatted and then it saved. I might have a bad card. In any event, what position should the tab be in to have it write enabled? Scott ==== Check on HPCALC.ORG. There is stopwatch program in one of the later Horn goodies disks...called stopwatch if I remember correctly. The program also allowed for countdown mode. You might have to program a beep. Geoff > > I am looking for a Darkroom Timer (a timer that beeps every 60 secs and > gives a different tone beeps when the development time is finished). > > I was wondering if anyone of you knows if such sw already exists and > where to find it. Similar timer to be modfied should be good also. > > > Fabio BERETTA > Lecco - IT > ==== You may be right, but listening to the sound dosn't really tell you how much more power its using - its just different noise. I've been using the ON+UP trick every day for over a week now with on the same set of batterys. I'm off for a few days, so I may try and wire it up to a meter and see how big of a problem it is or isn't. Rick > > > But if this is true and the fears of others > > are true that this eats battery power, it may > > not be such a great workaround. > > Sorry to be the bearer of sad tidings, but it's true: the ON+UPARROW > solution to the LCD blinking is NOT a good solution, since it puts > the 49g+ into high-drain mode. The blink that you ordinarily see > (after approx 2.5 seconds of keyboard non-use) is the ARM going into > low-power mode. > > I verified the power drain using the ancient trick of putting the 49g+ > mode and low-drain mode make different sounds. > > Listen to 2^9999 being calculated! Sounds like a laser battle in a > video game! > > HP (or Kimpo) did an AMAZING job on the 49g+ regarding RF emission! > Unlike all my other electronic toys which are easy to listen to > using an AM radio, the 49g+ is so quiet that you have to align the > top of the calc very close to the antenna to hear anything at all. > > -Joe- -with absolutely nothing else to do- ==== > > Sorry to be the bearer of sad tidings, but it's true: the ON+UPARROW > > solution to the LCD blinking is NOT a good solution, since it puts > > the 49g+ into high-drain mode. The blink that you ordinarily see > > (after approx 2.5 seconds of keyboard non-use) is the ARM going into > > low-power mode. > I've been using the ON+UP > trick every day for over a week now with on the same set of batterys. I'm > off for a few days, so I may try and wire it up to a meter and see how big > of a problem it is or isn't. > I did some *quick* testing with my ammeter and discovered the following: Test #1) Calculator idle, clock on, and visible menu flikering - current draw cycles between 10mA and 23mA every couple seconds. The cycling appears to be a fairly regular pattern (not intermittent). Haven't concluded if this coincides exactly with the flickering (I only have one set of eyes 8-). Test #2) Calulator idle, clock on, pressed +, no visible menu flickering - current draw held steady at 23mA. I wished I had done another test with the clock off, because the menu flickering is essentially non-existent on my 49G+, even without pressing +. Matt ==== Matt So at 23mA, you get about 50 hrs per set of batteries (vs. ~100 hrs at 10mA). That's acceptable to me. If they can't eliminate the flicker in low-power mode, then perhaps it's better to have the option to choose the mode you prefer. Let's hope they at least give you some way of setting which is the default mode - I still haven't found a way to put ON+UP in STARTUP. ref: http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/MN2400.pdf Rick > > > Sorry to be the bearer of sad tidings, but it's true: the ON+UPARROW > > > solution to the LCD blinking is NOT a good solution, since it puts > > > the 49g+ into high-drain mode. The blink that you ordinarily see > > > (after approx 2.5 seconds of keyboard non-use) is the ARM going into > > > low-power mode. > > > > I've been using the ON+UP > > trick every day for over a week now with on the same set of batterys. I'm > > off for a few days, so I may try and wire it up to a meter and see how big > > of a problem it is or isn't. > > > > I did some *quick* testing with my ammeter and discovered the > following: > > Test #1) Calculator idle, clock on, and visible menu flikering - > current draw cycles between 10mA and 23mA every couple seconds. The > cycling appears to be a fairly regular pattern (not intermittent). > Haven't concluded if this coincides exactly with the flickering (I > only have one set of eyes 8-). > > Test #2) Calulator idle, clock on, pressed +, no visible menu > flickering - current draw held steady at 23mA. > > I wished I had done another test with the clock off, because the menu > flickering is essentially non-existent on my 49G+, even without > pressing +. > > Matt > ==== > I still haven't found a way to put ON+UP in STARTUP. > > Rick > I know somebody will correct me on this if I'm wrong, but since STARTUP is only executed following a cold/warm boot, it (ON+UP) would only work once from STARTUP following a warm-boot (+) or cold-boot (reset button). Since that doesn't sound too appealing, I *think* you're looking for something that will activate + whenever you turn on your 49+. 00:34:36 -0800, Dave said: I really hope someone can confirm the speculation about battery usage and low power mode because this method really solves the flickering screen problem. If the heavier battery usage is only when the calc is on and not when it's off, then it might be OK, since I turn off the calc when not in use anyways. In any case, using this method, I came up with a program to automatically run the print screen command when the calc turns on. Assign the following program to the off command -- which is key 101.3: << OFF PR1 >> I noticed that PR1, PRST, and PRSTC all seem to activate the infared print function like ON-UP does (maybe). However, unlike what happens when you execute those 3 commands, I noticed when you press ON-UP and upon releasing ON, the transfer annunciator blinks for a split second, but not turned on and pause (like when you select print display in I/O functions)--whereas the transfer annunciator doesn't blink when you execute those 3 commands. So I was able to put the equivalent of ON-UP in a user program and assign it to the OFF key so the program would run every time the calc is turned on. Dave Choose your poison (less flickering or longer battery life). I haven't decided yet :-) Matt ==== > Assign the following program to the off command -- which is key 101.3: > > << OFF PR1 >> Yes, this is what I was intending to do - stop the flicerking at powerup. (I realize now STARTUP is only executed at warm/cold boot) - however I'm a little confused as to why this works. I tried assigning << PR1 >> to 101.1 (which is what I would assume ON would be), and it would stop the flickering if I pushed ON _twice_. The first ON turns it on, the second runs PR1. << OFF PR1 >> assigned to 101.3 does prevent the flicering when you power on, but it's assigned to RSHIFT ON, and I'm not pressing that to turn the caluclator on - so why does that work? ==== > > Assign the following program to the off command -- which is key 101.3: > > > > << OFF PR1 >> > > Yes, this is what I was intending to do - stop the flicerking at powerup. > (I realize now STARTUP is only executed at warm/cold boot) - however I'm a > little confused as to why this works. > > I tried assigning << PR1 >> to 101.1 (which is what I would assume ON would > be), and it would stop the flickering if I pushed ON _twice_. The first ON > turns it on, the second runs PR1. > > << OFF PR1 >> assigned to 101.3 does prevent the flicering when you power > on, but it's assigned to RSHIFT ON, and I'm not pressing that to turn the > caluclator on - so why does that work? It works if you use that to put it OFF because it first runs OFF - and later - when you turn it on it continues with PR1 - and will eat up your batteries ever faster! ==== > Matt > > > So at 23mA, you get about 50 hrs per set of batteries (vs. ~100 hrs at > 10mA). That's acceptable to me. If they can't eliminate the flicker in > low-power mode, then perhaps it's better to have the option to choose the > mode you prefer. Let's hope they at least give you some way of setting > which is the default mode - I still haven't found a way to put ON+UP in > STARTUP. PR1 ==== I reported problems in another thread about sporadic shutdowns and crashes. Well, I'm thinking it was tied to this on-up trick as well. I have stopped doing the on-up thing, thinking it might be the culprit, and sure enough I don't think I've had any shutdowns or crashes since. This possibly seems to be a bug, in that even if the calc is not hooked up to a printer, executing a screen-print (wire) command shouldn't shutdown or crash the calc. I wonder if some others can confirm this possible cause/effect as well? Also, Joe Horns experiments and interpretation also seem quite plausable, so draining the battery excessively for the sake of reducing the slight flicker seems not such a good idea. I'm glad I'm not that bothered by the flicker! Mike Mander > Hmm. I tried doing this today, ON+uparrow, then using the calculator > normally. The first time, the calculator turned off after a few minutes > in the middle of some calculations I was doing (was using keys too), the > 2nd time, I put it aside (idle), then when I picked it up, it was frozen > and I had to reset it (paperclip). The clock was on both times. > > Matthew F. G. > > > Since this issue rates fairly high on the 49G+ Concerns radar > > screen, I thought a new thread might be warranted as a helpful > > workaround for the those of us who are afflicted with the flickering > > LCD syndrome. > > > > This fix came from Shinsuke in his response to the thread 49G+ > > Questions at the Museum of HP Calculators (the thread starts at: > > http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/forum.cgi?read=45540) > > > > Shinsuke's post said: A solution to the flickering is [Press ON plus > > up-arrow]. Ed Look mentioned this key-sequence is the Print LCD > > function. > > > > It really does seem to solve the issue, that is until the calculator's > > power is cycled, then you must repeat the sequence. Inserting this > > sequence into an autoexec-type program on power-up would be a nice way > > to automate the process. > > > > The real hope, since we can now feel pretty confident it's a software > > issue, is (if HP hasn't already determined what's causing the > > flickering) that this will provide a clue that points HP toward the > > real problem, and ultimately an updated ROM that fixes the flickering > > permanently (including Joe Horn's LCD storming-pixel display :-). > > > > Matt ==== | | I reported problems in another thread about sporadic shutdowns and | crashes. Well, I'm thinking it was tied to this on-up trick as well. | I have stopped doing the on-up thing, thinking it might be the | culprit, and sure enough I don't think I've had any shutdowns or | crashes since. | | This possibly seems to be a bug, in that even if the calc is not | hooked up to a printer, executing a screen-print (wire) command | shouldn't shutdown or crash the calc. I wonder if some others can | confirm this possible cause/effect as well? I've often had the calculator freeze when an attempted IR transfer fails. Once it was so bad that I had to remove all the batteries for several minutes before it would do anything. Poking a (stiff) wire through the reset hole doesn't seem to have any effect. I can't feel any kind of switch there either. Has anybody opened one of these things? ==== > The blink that you ordinarily see > (after approx 2.5 seconds of keyboard non-use) is the ARM going into > low-power mode. So it cant be fixed with a ROM update? ==== > > >>The blink that you ordinarily see >>(after approx 2.5 seconds of keyboard non-use) is the ARM going into >>low-power mode. > > > So it cant be fixed with a ROM update? I wouldn't say that at all. I'm sure there is some way to fix it - I guess we'll find out over the next few weeks? Al ==== I lost my Casio calculator watch, and so I no longer have a calculator with me all the time. So, I decided that I need a beater calculator to throw in my satchel so that I can calculate fuel economy when I'm at the gas station, and do other mundane tasks. I wish I could take an HP (like my 32SII), but with the way I treat my bag, it would be destroyed within weeks. I don't want to have to worry about something that can't be replaced. I've been carrying around this gift certificate to Radio Shack for about eleven months, and I figured that perhaps I would just get a scientific calculator from them. The best one that they sell seems to be the TI-36X, so I downloaded the manual to check it out. Now, I would much prefer RPN to algebraic. But, I spent a chunk of my life using a TI-85, and while I don't like the input style, it is consistent and makes sense. Because of this experience, I figured that an algebraic scientific calculator would be fine. Well, my reading of the TI-36X manual proved me wrong! The thing is a disaster, and I'm sure its faults are shared by all other calculators of this style. Because the thing can't display parenthesis and non-numbers (like square root and TAN), it can't let you just type in the problem like you would write it on paper. I thought that the advantage of algebraic calculators was that it was just like on paper, but it turns out that that isn't the case! Instead, the thing works in a sorta half-RPN, half-algebraic way. That is, most operations are postfix and only affect the 'x' register. An example: 256 [square root] [+] 4 [square root] [=] yeilds 18! So the thing has a stack of sorts, and it is letting me apply the square root to the 'x' register. In fact, there is even an [x<>y] key so that I can do a little bit of stack manipulation. Initially, I figured that the unary operations behaved like in RPN, and the binary operations behaved like in algebraic. That isn't even true! Some of the binary functions (like the n choose x function) require you to enter your numbers like this: 52 [x<>y] 5 [n choose x] [=] That is just strange! It is actually a postfix binary operator! After using RPN calculators for so long, I had no idea what a sorry state algebraic calculators are in. It is like an admission that their notation doesn't work well enough for real math, and that RPN is really the way to go, even if they try to avoid it. So the way I see it, the only algebraic calculators that work in a logical way are the ones that emulate the input methods of the algebraic graphing calculators. So that would be the two-line algebraic scientifics. I guess I could get one of those, or just wait for the HP33S. -Joshua -- -Joshua Belsky jjbelsky@yahoo.com http://belsky.net ==== > I lost my Casio calculator watch, and so I no longer have a > calculator with me all the time. So, I decided that I need a > beater calculator to throw in my satchel so that I can calculate > fuel economy when I'm at the gas station, and do other mundane > tasks. I wish I could take an HP (like my 32SII), but with the way I > treat my bag, it would be destroyed within weeks. I don't want to > have to worry about something that can't be replaced. > > I've been carrying around this gift certificate to Radio Shack for > about eleven months, and I figured that perhaps I would just get a > scientific calculator from them... My daughter got a nice scientific calculator at Radio Shack for $9.99 (actually she's gotten 3 or 4 because she keeps losing them). I think it was a Sharp or something. Definitely algebraic, and you get to see the whole equation before it is evaluated. You can recall it and put in different numbers, which is handy. Allen ==== The TI-36X and the TI-30Xa are, along with the Sharp 500, among the worst of contemporary scientific calculators. The problems with the algorithm for computing logarithms on the TI calculators have been mentioned on a number of newsgroups on many occasions. This is easily revealed by performing the calculation: (1+1e-9)^1e9 on either of these TI calculators. TI has stubbornly refused to fix this horrendous bug even though these 2 calculators may have been [until recently] among the most widely sold calculators in the USA. release in subsequent models. Still, the best algebraic system was the HP-71B since it facilitated display of intermediate results. None of the contemporary systems come close. If reasonably well implemented, the mix of infix/postfix in traditional algebraic calculators is quite effective. The HP-20S and the TI-BA-II-Plus are examples. Of course, as in RPN, the calculator does not maintain a historic record of keys pressed or a record of the expression entered. On either calculator, judicial use of an extra *1, ^1, or manually closing parenthesis will facilitate display of every intermediate result. Likewise, on the TI-30Xa or TI-36X, but as stated above, these TI models have other inherent flaws. Unfortunately, the 20S and BAIIPlus do not handle decimal to fraction operations, while the TI-36X and TI-30Xa do. The TI-36X [as well as the HP-6] has an annoying active = key that essentially acts as a constant key. I frequently end calculations on such calculators with an annoying +0= sequence. That way if I hit = again, the answer will not be altered. What I dislike about these new algebraic expression calculators is that they frequently have a stack that stores a history of previous expressions, however, they do not keep a stack of the corresponding numerical results. Such a primitive capability exists in some form in the TI-89/92/Voyager series. I think some HP models have had that capability as well, but I have never had one of these. Note that I would still choose an RPN calculator, given the choice. > I lost my Casio calculator watch, and so I no longer have a calculator with > me all the time. So, I decided that I need a beater calculator to throw > in my satchel so that I can calculate fuel economy when I'm at the gas > station, and do other mundane tasks. I wish I could take an HP (like my 32SII), > but with the way I treat my bag, it would be destroyed within weeks. I don't > want to have to worry about something that can't be replaced. > > I've been carrying around this gift certificate to Radio Shack for about > eleven months, and I figured that perhaps I would just get a scientific > calculator from them. The best one that they sell seems to be the TI-36X, > so I downloaded the manual to check it out. > > Now, I would much prefer RPN to algebraic. But, I spent a chunk of my life > using a TI-85, and while I don't like the input style, it is consistent and > makes sense. Because of this experience, I figured that an algebraic > scientific calculator would be fine. > > Well, my reading of the TI-36X manual proved me wrong! The thing is a disaster, > and I'm sure its faults are shared by all other calculators of this style. > > Because the thing can't display parenthesis and non-numbers (like square root > and TAN), it can't let you just type in the problem like you would write > it on paper. I thought that the advantage of algebraic calculators was that > it was just like on paper, but it turns out that that isn't the case! > Instead, the thing works in a sorta half-RPN, half-algebraic way. That is, > most operations are postfix and only affect the 'x' register. An example: > > 256 [square root] [+] 4 [square root] [=] yeilds 18! > > So the thing has a stack of sorts, and it is letting me apply the square > root to the 'x' register. In fact, there is even an [x<>y] key so that > I can do a little bit of stack manipulation. > > Initially, I figured that the unary operations behaved like in RPN, and the > binary operations behaved like in algebraic. That isn't even true! Some > of the binary functions (like the n choose x function) require you to enter > your numbers like this: > > 52 [x<>y] 5 [n choose x] [=] > > That is just strange! It is actually a postfix binary operator! > > After using RPN calculators for so long, I had no idea what a sorry state > algebraic calculators are in. It is like an admission that their notation > doesn't work well enough for real math, and that RPN is really the way to go, > even if they try to avoid it. > > So the way I see it, the only algebraic calculators that work in a logical > way are the ones that emulate the input methods of the algebraic graphing > calculators. So that would be the two-line algebraic scientifics. > > I guess I could get one of those, or just wait for the HP33S. > > -Joshua ==== I thank you for your suggestions, but I think you were missing the point of my post. The bit about needing an algebraic calculator was just a way of explaining how I came to read the TI-36X instructions. The point of the post was to expose my suprise at the fact that these algebraic calculators are nothing more than RPN with infix notation for a few of the operators and without all of the stack manipulation. I always knew that the classic algebraic mode calculators weren't as good as RPN, but I never realized that without most of RPN's constructs, they can't do the math that people need. I guess what this shows is that the jump from something like a TI-36X to an RPN system isn't that great; the TI is just RPN with some added confusion to make it look algebraic. -Josh > I lost my Casio calculator watch, and so I no longer have a calculator with > me all the time. So, I decided that I need a beater calculator to throw > in my satchel so that I can calculate fuel economy when I'm at the gas > station, and do other mundane tasks. I wish I could take an HP (like my 32SII), > but with the way I treat my bag, it would be destroyed within weeks. I don't > want to have to worry about something that can't be replaced. > I've been carrying around this gift certificate to Radio Shack for about > eleven months, and I figured that perhaps I would just get a scientific > calculator from them. The best one that they sell seems to be the TI-36X, > so I downloaded the manual to check it out. > Now, I would much prefer RPN to algebraic. But, I spent a chunk of my life > using a TI-85, and while I don't like the input style, it is consistent and > makes sense. Because of this experience, I figured that an algebraic > scientific calculator would be fine. > Well, my reading of the TI-36X manual proved me wrong! The thing is a disaster, > and I'm sure its faults are shared by all other calculators of this style. > Because the thing can't display parenthesis and non-numbers (like square root > and TAN), it can't let you just type in the problem like you would write > it on paper. I thought that the advantage of algebraic calculators was that > it was just like on paper, but it turns out that that isn't the case! > Instead, the thing works in a sorta half-RPN, half-algebraic way. That is, > most operations are postfix and only affect the 'x' register. An example: > 256 [square root] [+] 4 [square root] [=] yeilds 18! > So the thing has a stack of sorts, and it is letting me apply the square > root to the 'x' register. In fact, there is even an [x<>y] key so that > I can do a little bit of stack manipulation. > Initially, I figured that the unary operations behaved like in RPN, and the > binary operations behaved like in algebraic. That isn't even true! Some > of the binary functions (like the n choose x function) require you to enter > your numbers like this: > 52 [x<>y] 5 [n choose x] [=] > That is just strange! It is actually a postfix binary operator! > After using RPN calculators for so long, I had no idea what a sorry state > algebraic calculators are in. It is like an admission that their notation > doesn't work well enough for real math, and that RPN is really the way to go, > even if they try to avoid it. > So the way I see it, the only algebraic calculators that work in a logical > way are the ones that emulate the input methods of the algebraic graphing > calculators. So that would be the two-line algebraic scientifics. > I guess I could get one of those, or just wait for the HP33S. > -Joshua > -- > -Joshua Belsky > jjbelsky@yahoo.com > http://belsky.net -- -Joshua Belsky jjbelsky@yahoo.com http://belsky.net ==== > I thank you for your suggestions, but I think you were missing the point of > my post. The bit about needing an algebraic calculator was just a way of > explaining how I came to read the TI-36X instructions. Oops. :o > > The point of the post was to expose my suprise at the fact that these > algebraic calculators are nothing more than RPN with infix notation for > a few of the operators and without all of the stack manipulation. I always > knew that the classic algebraic mode calculators weren't as good as RPN, but > I never realized that without most of RPN's constructs, they can't do the > math that people need. > > I guess what this shows is that the jump from something like a TI-36X to > an RPN system isn't that great; the TI is just RPN with some added > confusion to make it look algebraic. > > -Josh > Fascinating! I've never looked at it that way before! It sounds like putting some GUI on a DOS kernel! Hey, I've seen THAT before somewhere... ==== I suspect the 33s will be quite susceptible to damage, so be careful. The best value in an Algebraic that I've found lately may no longer be available. The SPECTRA SSC-200 was at Target for $7.00 and under. It's a two-line scientific with 26 memories, an ANS function (as in, previous result), and just about any function you might think of (no SOLVE or graphing) all in a tight, compact little package. Its top line is a dot-matrix array that shows the formula being entered, with math symbols and editing capabilities, and the lower line is a clear 7-segment, 10-digit display. It has no hard plastic cover, but it's so small and solidly-built, I suspect it will take a lot of abuse. (Conversely, it should be easy to find some kind of small, hard case in which to carry it.) It's really an amazing little beast. I cited it once as an example of how tough it must be to make money in the low end of the calculator business. A spec sheet and pictures are available at: http://www.spectraintl.com/xspe/ssc-200.html . I bought a couple at Target last Spring, but haven't seen it there lately. (I'd buy a couple more.) You may want to take a look. FYI . . . ==== > I wish I could take an HP (like my 32SII), > but with the way I treat my bag, it would be destroyed within weeks. Probably not, but why take the risk? I'd recommend the HP20S, which is probably the best algebraic calculator ever made. It's a lot less expensive than the HP32SII, and just as durable. ==== If you want an algerbraic calculator a simple sharp/casio scientific will do the job, mine has lasted at the bottom of a school bag for 3 years plus a year at the bottom of a univeristy bag, I would think that they are hardy enough and, their entry style is true algerbraic so no need to learn funny input techniques. (BTW I would recomend the sharp EL-506/556 beacuse I prefer them to the casio) > I lost my Casio calculator watch, and so I no longer have a calculator with > me all the time. So, I decided that I need a beater calculator to throw > in my satchel so that I can calculate fuel economy when I'm at the gas > station, and do other mundane tasks. I wish I could take an HP (like my 32SII), > but with the way I treat my bag, it would be destroyed within weeks. I don't > want to have to worry about something that can't be replaced. > > I've been carrying around this gift certificate to Radio Shack for about > eleven months, and I figured that perhaps I would just get a scientific > calculator from them. The best one that they sell seems to be the TI-36X, > so I downloaded the manual to check it out. > > Now, I would much prefer RPN to algebraic. But, I spent a chunk of my life > using a TI-85, and while I don't like the input style, it is consistent and > makes sense. Because of this experience, I figured that an algebraic > scientific calculator would be fine. > > Well, my reading of the TI-36X manual proved me wrong! The thing is a disaster, > and I'm sure its faults are shared by all other calculators of this style. > > Because the thing can't display parenthesis and non-numbers (like square root > and TAN), it can't let you just type in the problem like you would write > it on paper. I thought that the advantage of algebraic calculators was that > it was just like on paper, but it turns out that that isn't the case! > Instead, the thing works in a sorta half-RPN, half-algebraic way. That is, > most operations are postfix and only affect the 'x' register. An example: > > 256 [square root] [+] 4 [square root] [=] yeilds 18! > > So the thing has a stack of sorts, and it is letting me apply the square > root to the 'x' register. In fact, there is even an [x<>y] key so that > I can do a little bit of stack manipulation. > > Initially, I figured that the unary operations behaved like in RPN, and the > binary operations behaved like in algebraic. That isn't even true! Some > of the binary functions (like the n choose x function) require you to enter > your numbers like this: > > 52 [x<>y] 5 [n choose x] [=] > > That is just strange! It is actually a postfix binary operator! > > After using RPN calculators for so long, I had no idea what a sorry state > algebraic calculators are in. It is like an admission that their notation > doesn't work well enough for real math, and that RPN is really the way to go, > even if they try to avoid it. > > So the way I see it, the only algebraic calculators that work in a logical > way are the ones that emulate the input methods of the algebraic graphing > calculators. So that would be the two-line algebraic scientifics. > > I guess I could get one of those, or just wait for the HP33S. > > -Joshua > > -- > -Joshua Belsky > jjbelsky@yahoo.com > http://belsky.net > ==== Shoot! Radio Shack (at least 'round NYC) still has a few discontinued $7 algebraic scientifics (one memory register) and has a high-school style slide-on hard front shield; it'll take your satchel banging. As to fuel economy, do it in your head! I round off the gallons and miles to one decimal place. I'm trying to keep my stack from imploding (as to blowing it). > I lost my Casio calculator watch, and so I no longer have a calculator with > me all the time. So, I decided that I need a beater calculator to throw > in my satchel so that I can calculate fuel economy when I'm at the gas > station, and do other mundane tasks. I wish I could take an HP (like my 32SII), > but with the way I treat my bag, it would be destroyed within weeks. I don't > want to have to worry about something that can't be replaced. > > I've been carrying around this gift certificate to Radio Shack for about > eleven months, and I figured that perhaps I would just get a scientific > calculator from them. The best one that they sell seems to be the TI-36X, > so I downloaded the manual to check it out. > > Now, I would much prefer RPN to algebraic. But, I spent a chunk of my life > using a TI-85, and while I don't like the input style, it is consistent and > makes sense. Because of this experience, I figured that an algebraic > scientific calculator would be fine. > > Well, my reading of the TI-36X manual proved me wrong! The thing is a disaster, > and I'm sure its faults are shared by all other calculators of this style. > > Because the thing can't display parenthesis and non-numbers (like square root > and TAN), it can't let you just type in the problem like you would write > it on paper. I thought that the advantage of algebraic calculators was that > it was just like on paper, but it turns out that that isn't the case! > Instead, the thing works in a sorta half-RPN, half-algebraic way. That is, > most operations are postfix and only affect the 'x' register. An example: > > 256 [square root] [+] 4 [square root] [=] yeilds 18! > > So the thing has a stack of sorts, and it is letting me apply the square > root to the 'x' register. In fact, there is even an [x<>y] key so that > I can do a little bit of stack manipulation. > > Initially, I figured that the unary operations behaved like in RPN, and the > binary operations behaved like in algebraic. That isn't even true! Some > of the binary functions (like the n choose x function) require you to enter > your numbers like this: > > 52 [x<>y] 5 [n choose x] [=] > > That is just strange! It is actually a postfix binary operator! > > After using RPN calculators for so long, I had no idea what a sorry state > algebraic calculators are in. It is like an admission that their notation > doesn't work well enough for real math, and that RPN is really the way to go, > even if they try to avoid it. > > So the way I see it, the only algebraic calculators that work in a logical > way are the ones that emulate the input methods of the algebraic graphing > calculators. So that would be the two-line algebraic scientifics. > > I guess I could get one of those, or just wait for the HP33S. > > -Joshua > > ==== Does anyone have any recommendations for college level calculus textbooks that have good supplimentary info for using HP calculators, or TI for that matter, where one can find good exercises in using the ==== James Stewart's Calculus (Brooks/Cole) series seems to be one of the more popular college-level calculus texts. Its coverage of technology is decent and because of its relative popularity, a series of books entitled CalcLabs have been written to supplement the text. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a version of the CalcLab lab manual for HP calculators, but there are versions for Mathematica, Maple, Derive, TI 82/83 (single variable only), TI 85/86 (single variable only), and TI 89/92/92+. These are available from Amazon.com, and while I have not looked at any of them myself, I am told that they are good, fairly comprensive - designed for a lab course in calculus and has exercises, labs, and projects. An advantage for the teacher (and probably the student as well) is that it is tied to the sequence and content of the lecture text. Even though there doesn't appear to be an HP-specific version of the CalcLabs book, you might find that some of the information covered in one of the other versions (especially the PC CAS versions) would also be useful when transferrred to the HP, and I would imagine that most if not all of the examples would work on the HP. Also, do you need something designed to be tied to a course, as you implied? If you don't need this, there are several of calculus on the HP calculator books on Amazon.com. They aren't textbooks or books related to a specific textbook, but will likely be helpful anyway. > Does anyone have any recommendations for college level calculus > textbooks that have good supplimentary info for using HP calculators, > or TI for that matter, where one can find good exercises in using the ==== have a TI89 also. I have heard of Stewart's book, very expensive , but maybe there are some used one floating around. >James Stewart's Calculus (Brooks/Cole) series seems to be one of the >more popular college-level calculus texts. Its coverage of technology >is decent and because of its relative popularity, a series of books >entitled CalcLabs have been written to supplement the text. >Unfortunately, I don't think there is a version of the CalcLab lab >manual for HP calculators, but there are versions for Mathematica, >Maple, Derive, TI 82/83 (single variable only), TI 85/86 (single >variable only), and TI 89/92/92+. These are available from Amazon.com, >and while I have not looked at any of them myself, I am told that they >are good, fairly comprensive - designed for a lab course in calculus >and has exercises, labs, and projects. An advantage for the teacher >(and probably the student as well) is that it is tied to the sequence >and content of the lecture text. > >Even though there doesn't appear to be an HP-specific version of the >CalcLabs book, you might find that some of the information covered in >one of the other versions (especially the PC CAS versions) would also >be useful when transferrred to the HP, and I would imagine that most >if not all of the examples would work on the HP. > >Also, do you need something designed to be tied to a course, as you >implied? If you don't need this, there are several of calculus on the >HP calculator books on Amazon.com. They aren't textbooks or books >related to a specific textbook, but will likely be helpful anyway. > >> Does anyone have any recommendations for college level calculus >> textbooks that have good supplimentary info for using HP calculators, >> or TI for that matter, where one can find good exercises in using the ==== Since I still can't enter bugs for the HP49G+ on Eric's site, I'll post it here: RCLF: {#3084030285010FFh #0h #801010500A000008h #0h} (complex, exact and rigorous on) 'd1ARG(X)' EVAL and 'd1ABS(X)' EVAL will result in gibberish expressions - they both suddenly contain invalid IDs ('#1.' in fact). ==== > > Since I still can't enter bugs for the HP49G+ on Eric's site, Why not? If you visit http://bugs.hpcalc.org/, you should be able to do it. Where do you run into a problem? -- James ==== > Why not? If you visit http://bugs.hpcalc.org/, you should be able to do > it. Where do you run into a problem? I can only choose HP49G as product to report a bug for. ==== >>Why not? If you visit http://bugs.hpcalc.org/, you should be able to do >>it. Where do you run into a problem? > > > I can only choose HP49G as product to report a bug for. Ah, I think I see what you mean. When you get to the Enter Bug page, look on the left size for Platform, open the choose list next to this, and choose the calculator model. -- James ==== X > I did plan on looking at 128, 64, and 256 cards (in MB), but since I > really wanted to get a 128 card, which would have been the same price > without a match, or maybe $10-20 cheaper with one, I was going to > spend the $20-$30 to get the bigger card so I would have something > worth more for my money. Seems I got a 256MB card for what I thought I > would be paying them for a $128 one. > Now to just hope that new ROMs offer better support for it soon and > that I figure out how I want to use it; this is more memory than the > PC in the other room has in RAM. ;) The calc has 1/4 MB of RAM, The SD could be considered as a HD (or tape drive - in case of libraries) ==== For a Mac, use thae maximum For a PC, use less than 1GB for Win98SE or earlier > What you need in RAM is greatly influenced by what OS you will run and > what apps you will run (simultaneousely). Do you know what demands you > want to be able to put on the system? > > I hear you on this one. When I get around to building the replacement > > for this HP oldie I'm using right now, I am going to see what the sweet > > spot RAM size is for it. ==== > Sorry, but you are falling for a a couple of traps from the difference > between the 48SX / 48GX and the 49G level calculators. > > 1) They have a new type called INTEGER. Input a number like 1000 and press > ENTER and you have placed the INTEGER 1000 on the stack. Fix 3 does not > place commas into integers. To show integers you must be in a fix mode and > be dealing with REAL numbers. Type 1000 then the decimal point to get a > real. It will show with commas. This has been true for 4 years now. The > reason the 48 series doesn't do this is that they don't have the integer > type. HP has been asked to find a way to show integers with commas as well > as show commas when in standard mode. Given the LARGE number of things the > user community asked for that were incorporated into the 49G+, I think there > is a good chance this will come in the future. X I would like to see decimal grouping also AFTER the decimal point 1,234.567,89 Hexadecimal could be grouped by four # 1234 5678 9ABC DEF0_h ==== > >>Sorry, but you are falling for a a couple of traps from the difference >>between the 48SX / 48GX and the 49G level calculators. >> >>1) They have a new type called INTEGER. Input a number like 1000 and > > press > >>ENTER and you have placed the INTEGER 1000 on the stack. Fix 3 does not >>place commas into integers. To show integers you must be in a fix mode > > and > >>be dealing with REAL numbers. Type 1000 then the decimal point to get a >>real. It will show with commas. This has been true for 4 years now. The >>reason the 48 series doesn't do this is that they don't have the integer >>type. HP has been asked to find a way to show integers with commas as well >>as show commas when in standard mode. Given the LARGE number of things the >>user community asked for that were incorporated into the 49G+, I think > > there > >>is a good chance this will come in the future. > > X > I would like to see decimal grouping also AFTER the decimal point > 1,234.567,89 > Hexadecimal could be grouped by four # 1234 5678 9ABC DEF0_h Personally, I think that I'd usually rather have hex grouped in pairs (to represent bytes) for user binary numbers, or in groups of five for BINTs. Binary in groups of four to represent nibbles, but maybe sometime in groups of three to represent octal digits (do they have a special name?). But some other groupings are sometimes desirable, as in 12-bit values, word and long word groupings. Perhaps best to make this user-configurable. And then there are the little-endian formats. Do we dare go there? But certainly some sort of grouping would be very helpful; it's all too easy to miscount digits. -- James ==== X > Personally, I think that I'd usually rather have hex grouped in pairs > (to represent bytes) for user binary numbers, or in groups of five for > BINTs. Binary in groups of four to represent nibbles, but maybe sometime > in groups of three to represent octal digits (do they have a special > name?). But some other groupings are sometimes desirable, as in 12-bit > values, word and long word groupings. Perhaps best to make this > user-configurable. Yes - user configurable variable at CASDIR: GROUP or command pair ->GROUP GROUP-> should floats, integers, user binary, and system binaries have different settings? like real, int, bin, sysbin respectively .after decimal point { 3.0 3.3 5 2 } ==== I have read the posts and the only way I have seen is to compile user rpl on emu first. how the heck do you do that. Never used and emu before. can you hook the calc to a serial port and then use kermit? ==== Once you have d/l'd and unzipped the debug4x program you will notice a subfolder containing Emu whatever name you choose). Now you can use Conn4x to FILE | DOWNLOAD FILE (Manual XRECV), and follow the on screen directions. I made a little program <> to save a few keystrokes! The process just goes: 'YOURVAR' enter XRECV. I did the same thing for sending files to the pc: <>. I know there's a simpler way ... just *got* to be one! However, this gets things going at least. You could also save EMU49ASC.BIN to your calc if you wanted, and then you wouldn't need the emulator. This whole concept seems pretty archaeic, given the so called advanced evolution of hp calc's. The hp48sx, historic as it is, is more advanced in this regard though ... even the PDL could at least transfer prgm files from the pc to the calc and so on, not to mention HPcomm! >I have read the posts and the only way I have seen is to compile user >rpl on emu first. how the heck do you do that. Never used and emu >before. can you hook the calc to a serial port and then use kermit? ==== > Once you have d/l'd and unzipped the debug4x program you will notice a > subfolder containing Emu > > opens up, you may want to select VIEW | Change KML script, and choose > the 800x600 256 color selection to make the calc managable in size. > > Then using the EDIT | LOAD OBJECT choice from the toolbar, you can > load in the file EMU49ASC.BIN and save it to a convenient variable. > (I used 'A' STO) . Finally, after you've created your own program, > load it in to the emulator using the same EDIT | LOAD OBJECT and on > completion, just push the EMU49ASC variable (A, in my case) to run > that program over the top of it. Finally EDIT | SAVE OBJECT and save > it back to the same name you originally had for your program (or > whatever name you choose). > > Now you can use Conn4x to FILE | DOWNLOAD FILE (Manual XRECV), and > follow the on screen directions. I made a little program <> to > save a few keystrokes! The process just goes: 'YOURVAR' enter > XRECV. I did the same thing for sending files to the pc: <>. > > I know there's a simpler way ... just *got* to be one! However, this > gets things going at least. You could also save EMU49ASC.BIN to your > calc if you wanted, and then you wouldn't need the emulator. This > whole concept seems pretty archaeic, given the so called advanced > evolution of hp calc's. The hp48sx, historic as it is, is more > advanced in this regard though ... even the PDL could at least > transfer prgm files from the pc to the calc and so on, not to mention > HPcomm! > > > >I have read the posts and the only way I have seen is to compile user > >rpl on emu first. how the heck do you do that. Never used and emu > >before. can you hook the calc to a serial port and then use kermit? ==== > Once you have d/l'd and unzipped the debug4x program you will notice a > subfolder containing Emu > > opens up, you may want to select VIEW | Change KML script, and choose > the 800x600 256 color selection to make the calc managable in size. > > Then using the EDIT | LOAD OBJECT choice from the toolbar, you can > load in the file EMU49ASC.BIN and save it to a convenient variable. > (I used 'A' STO) . Finally, after you've created your own program, > load it in to the emulator using the same EDIT | LOAD OBJECT and on > completion, just push the EMU49ASC variable (A, in my case) to run > that program over the top of it. Finally EDIT | SAVE OBJECT and save > it back to the same name you originally had for your program (or > whatever name you choose). > > Now you can use Conn4x to FILE | DOWNLOAD FILE (Manual XRECV), and > follow the on screen directions. I made a little program <> to > save a few keystrokes! The process just goes: 'YOURVAR' enter > XRECV. I did the same thing for sending files to the pc: <>. > > I know there's a simpler way ... just *got* to be one! However, this > gets things going at least. You could also save EMU49ASC.BIN to your > calc if you wanted, and then you wouldn't need the emulator. This > whole concept seems pretty archaeic, given the so called advanced > evolution of hp calc's. The hp48sx, historic as it is, is more > advanced in this regard though ... even the PDL could at least > transfer prgm files from the pc to the calc and so on, not to mention > HPcomm! > > > >I have read the posts and the only way I have seen is to compile user > >rpl on emu first. how the heck do you do that. Never used and emu > >before. can you hook the calc to a serial port and then use kermit? After you have Finally EDIT | SAVE OBJECT and save > it back to the same name you originally had for your program (or > whatever name you choose), why don't you not simply drag the program to the connx window, (making sure that it is first connected to the calculator) this will certainly copy it automatically to your calculator and it is far simpler to do. I have tried copying the EMU49ASC.BIN to the calculator and working from there but unfortunately, it does not seem to work for me. My calculator crashes every time. On some instances On C will restore it, then on others it takes the good old pin in the hole at the back to restore it. Could have something to do with entry points not the same in the 49G and 49G+. ==== I use SDIAG (from emacs) http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3940 You may choose a version that has the ML & SysRPL removed > It occurred to me that, with all the memory that's available on a > 49g+, there isn't anything keeping one from storing a brief summary of > all available commands, to be utilized when trying something new. > > I robotically walked through the CAT menu, appending each command to > a string, and then parsed the string into a sorted, corrected list of > 762 command strings. I envision three lists, each with the same > number of entries: > > 1. the 762 commands (perhaps to grow in the future?); > > 2. a list of strings briefly explaining what the corresponding > commands do, and > > 3. a list of lists, each detailing the various combinations of > arguments accepted by the corresponding command. (Remember the > CATALOG function on the 28C/S?) > > A simple application would return the explanation of and/or arguments > allowed for a given command. Of course, once the information is > available in a structured form, other bells & whistles could follow. > (I don't think a .pdf reader would be the way to go just yet ... ) > > The whole business should fit well within the 49G+ memory, and could > be stored on the SD card by experienced users when not in use. > > I figure if several folks could divide up the investigation & data > entry, we could have a shared resource in no time. (Its availability > might make for greater acceptance of the new model among new users.) > > Responses? Ideas? Am I off base? (Is there something already > available??) Do let me know! ==== > > MUCH later, I wanted the string back, so I copied the directory back > to Flash (IIRC), entered the directory and brought the string into the > stack. I PURGEd the Flash copy of the directory, and the stack image > of the string changed to External (without quotes). EVALuating the > External object resulted in a warm (cool?, cold?) start, with the > Powered by Metakernel (sp?) splash screen ... > Actually, I think that the SD card is a red herring. After successfully copying the directory from SD to Flash (Port 2), none of the subsequent event-related activity involved the SD at all. The real question is, after deleting original image of a copied-to-stack object (specifically, a 4000+ character string), is it normal for appearance of the stack entry to to switch to External, and then for evaluation of an external object to result in a re-boot? (I see only the briefest mention of external object in the 49G+ User's Guide in a list of TYPE code values.) ==== I have seen some pretty weird behavior with SD cards as well - program objects mysteriously changing to strings for example. I have never abused the SD card such as taking it out while the 49g+ was powered on, had a crash while accessing the card or anything like that. I have also seen the 49g+ put a second copy of a file in an SD card subdirectory (subdir was created on my PC), using a 3:{BACKUP X) STO type of command sequence. Normally the STO command should fail with an Object in Use error if a file already exists on the card. In more than one instance I have seen it write a second copy onto the card with the 49g+ Filer then showing both files, with exactly the same name. Subsequently a CHKDSK on my PC showed the card to be a total mess - cross linked files and all sorts of other errors! I am not an expert on the low-level format of memory cards or disk drives (so perhaps someone else could shed some light), but the 49g+ also seems to me to perform a somewhat non-standard format. I use both a Macintosh (OS X) and a PC (WinXP) daily and have never had any problems sharing CF or SM cards between platforms. However, with a 49g+ formatted SD card, it will not mount on my Macintosh (or any other I've tried). The OS X Disk Utility program sees the card but there seems to be no partition information on the card so the OS refuses to mount it. As well, I've seen a freshly 49g+ formatted SD card actually showed errors when running a disk check under WinXP. wondering if there may be a alternative way to mount a 49g+ card under OS X. There seems to be a mount_msdos command, but I've had no success with that either. If I format the card on my PC, it will show up on the Macintosh but it does not seem to work reliably in the 49g+. I will sometime save a file onto the SD card with the PC or Mac, but it will then not show in the 49g+... or was it the other way around? I'm not sure, but in any case, the only reliable PC to 49g+ SD file transfer for me, has been to format the card in the 49g+ which then prevents it from being used on a Macintosh unfortunately. I think that HP needs to beef up their handling of SD cards, both with formatting and reading/writing in the calculator so hopefully this weirdness will go away with a future firmware update. Lastly, with Macintoshes (with OS X) being used more and more in the scientific community one would hope that HP might make an effort to support the Macintosh platform once again - a version of HPComm that will run under OS X allowing direct USB connectivity would be most welcome! Mike Mander > If I may continue on the subject of other 49G+ bugs . . . > > I saved a large string in a directory, backed up (COPYed) the > directory to the SD card, and eventually PURGEd the string. > > MUCH later, I wanted the string back, so I copied the directory back > to Flash (IIRC), entered the directory and brought the string into the > stack. I PURGEd the Flash copy of the directory, and the stack image > of the string changed to External (without quotes). EVALuating the > External object resulted in a warm (cool?, cold?) start, with the > Powered by Metakernel (sp?) splash screen and a restored CHARS > table. (I just happened to notice this last, 'cause that's part of > what I was playing with.) > > Anyway, is that the sort of behavior I should have expected when > purging the original of a large, copied-to-stack object? It wasn't > any huge deal at the time, but seems kinda' quirky. ==== > Lastly, with Macintoshes (with OS X) being used more and more in the > scientific community one would hope that HP might make an effort to > support the Macintosh platform once again - a version of HPComm that > will run under OS X allowing direct USB connectivity would be most > welcome! > > Or at least put the ROM upgrades in a format (e.g., *.zip as opposed to *.exe) that Macs can handle after downloading. Tom Scott ==== > > Lastly, with Macintoshes (with OS X) being used more and more in the > > scientific community one would hope that HP might make an effort to > > support the Macintosh platform once again - a version of HPComm that > > will run under OS X allowing direct USB connectivity would be most > > welcome! > > > > > > Or at least put the ROM upgrades in a format (e.g., *.zip as opposed > to *.exe) that Macs can handle after downloading. Agreed! Another note: I have tried, so far unsuccessfully, to interface the 49g+ with my dual-G4 Macintosh running OS X v10.3 and VirtualPC v6.1 running Win2000 with the supplied USB cable. VirtualPC detects the 49g+ and lists it in its USB device list. When I try to activate it and click Okay to close the dialog, there is a long delay of maybe 10 seconds until the program responds again. If I then go back to VirtualPC's USB device list, the 49g+ shows as deactivated again - damn! So far I have gotten all other USB devices including card readers, mice, USB printers etc. to work with VirtualPC, but not the 49g+. Perhaps a slightly non-standard USB interface implementation as well? At least I can get my SanDisk SD card reader to work in VirtualPC... Mike Mander > > Tom Scott ==== > At least I can get my SanDisk SD card reader to work in VirtualPC... The card reader should work flawlessly without any driver under 10.3. Michael -- -= Michael Hoppe , =------ ==== Yes, it does work without a driver, however an SD card that was formatted in the 49g+ will *not* be accessible. That applies to both OS X v10.2 and v10.3 (not sure about OS 9). If the card was formatted on the Mac as an MS-DOS disk using Disk Utility, it works fine - except it seems one can only format it as a FAT32 so it won't work in the 49g+. A card formatted on a PC as a FAT16 will also show up on the Mac, but as I mentioned, I have had difficulties with cards in the 49g+ unless they were formatted *in* the 49g+. This is the reason why I am using the SD reader with VirtualPC since VPC will indeed see cards formatted by the 49g+. I am not sure at this point whether the 49g+ is doing a non-standard format or if the Mac's MS-DOS mounting software is incomplete (or buggy) - I'm not sure who to blame... ;-) Also, as much as OS X is my OS of choice, it still really bugs me that it leaves .DS_STORE files and other junk on PC formatted cards. I believe Apple has fixed OS X's behavior on PC networks in this regard, but not for memory cards it seems. Another reason to use VirtualPC. I will have to experiment more with PC formatted cards (as opposed to 49g+ formatted cards) to see if I still have problems in the 49g+. Maybe it was a fluke since I haven't read that others are having any such problems... Lastly, Lexar Media will soon be releasing their ImageRescue 2.0 software which will also work with non-Lexar cards. This software also has an OS X version. Hopefully this might be a solution for OS X FAT16 formatting...? http://www.lexarmedia.com/newsroom/press/press_10_30_03a.html Mike Mander P.S. In my initial experiments where I was having problems with the SD card, I was using a *real* PC for formatting the card and not VirtualPC... > > > At least I can get my SanDisk SD card reader to work in VirtualPC... > > The card reader should work flawlessly without any driver under 10.3. > > Michael ==== > > The card reader should work flawlessly without any driver under 10.3. Yes, but (at least in my case) the SD card had to be formatted with a Windows platform before it would work in my HP49G+. Tom Scott ==== I need to purchase a copy of this AUR. Where exactly can I do so. ==== I bought one from CalcPro: www.calcpro.com Even HP Calc customer support says to buy it from them. But now it costs $30; up from the original price of $20 > I need to purchase a copy of this AUR. Where exactly can I do so. > ==== > I bought one from CalcPro: > > www.calcpro.com > > Even HP Calc customer support says to buy it from them. But now it > costs $30; up from the original price of $20 > > > > > I need to purchase a copy of this AUR. Where exactly can I do so. > > ==== > > > If you really want commented code on the calc, you may > > > ... use comment DROP > sequences, > > > both of which may be waste of memory. > > > This is the only case I know where comments DO slow down programs and > make them bigger :-) > > Indeed, the ideal slow-down tool for programs which run too fast on the > HP49G+ and to fill up all this unused empty memory :-) > > By the way, it is no problem to write a small program for the reserved > variable betaENTER which does the following: While still in the command > line, each time you press ENTER on your commented program string, your > source is not only nicely compiled but at the same time, a copy of the > source with all its comments is saved automatically on the SD-card. Neat idea, Professor! If I want comments in my source I might use string @ with comments STOred as 'Example.txt' A subsequent Exampl.txt STR-> will run the program ==== X > have probably inserted and extrcated an SD card 20 or 30 times over > the last weeks before the reader failed. ON-D 7 reports CARD TEST > FAIL, and this happens with all 4 SD cards (all 128 MB versions) I > own (and they work fine in my external reader on Win2k and WinXP). > They are of course formatted with FAT16 aso. X > Anobody else with failing SD card readers on the HP49G+? My SD reader has survived hundreds of insert/removals with power OFF & ON, formatted once on PC & once on + Before the format (on the PC) one SD card refused to update ROM otherwise than Illegal DOS Name with libs - I'm happy with the SD/MMC ==== > All 113 programs do need to be visible to normal users, since they are > all intended to be user-level functions. Is there at least an easy way > to make a soft menu item have the little manila-folder-like tab that > they use for directories and sub-menus? Other than that, writing a > nesting menu program would be trivial. You could use the following methods A) use a graphical key to represent the submenu then under that key you start a new (T)MENU (don't forget the MAIN label) B) use a real subdirectory with the same name Again you should have a new MENU in your subdirectory (with MAIN together with UPDIR command to go back up) In case someone did not understand the above short desciptions I'm sure James with give Prangeable explanation (-; ==== > >>All 113 programs do need to be visible to normal users, since they are >>all intended to be user-level functions. Is there at least an easy way >>to make a soft menu item have the little manila-folder-like tab that >>they use for directories and sub-menus? Other than that, writing a >>nesting menu program would be trivial. > > You could use the following methods > A) use a graphical key to represent the submenu > then under that key you start a new (T)MENU > (don't forget the MAIN label) > B) use a real subdirectory with the same name > Again you should have a new MENU in your subdirectory > (with MAIN together with UPDIR command to go back up) > In case someone did not understand the above short desciptions > I'm sure James with give Prangeable explanation (-; Huh? I think someone mentioned my name? But there's no real expertise here. I've never experimented with sub-menus in libraries. As I understand it, libraries don't have a tree-like structure like a directory and its subdirectories. I've never tried to experiment with putting a directory within a library. But you can put the objects in a preferred order and hide some and make others visible, which for most libraries is sufficient. But the built-in menus do indeed have sub-menus, so there is a way. I suppose that a visible library object could be a library command to generate a menu, and some or all of the items in the menu list could be (hidden) library commands (are hidden library objects properly called commands?) to generate other menus, and to allow the user to navigate up the menu-tree, each sub-menu could include the library command which generated its parent-menu. I guess that I've made that as clear as mud. I expect that the MENU or TMENU commands offer a way to accomplish this; one could always experiment with them in ordinary UserRPL. And I do recall that there's a way to have the little tab on a menu label, but I don't off-hand recall how. But I think that Christopher seems to be on the right track. -- James ==== I eventually found out how to get it to generate the little folder grobs from another thread here, and ended up writing another program called NMENU that I added to the library, which generates a nested menu set from a CST-like menu. After looking more deeply into the soft-menu system on the calculator, I have came to a conlcusion about it that I would like people with actual knowledge on the subject to confirm or deny. The calculator doesn't really have sub-menus at all, not even the built-in menus, it just fakes it. Now I don't mean this in a bad way, rather this is what an engineer would call a design decision. Notice how specific menus can be reached by typing in some integer between 0 and 256 and then executing MENU? A sub-menu just calls [some other integer] MENU, and so they appear to be nested, even though they really aren't. This was probably a really good idea originally though (back in the 48SX or whatever calculator first had the soft-menus), because I would hate to see how slow it would be on a 2-MHz Saturn. The program takes about a second or two to initially display the full library menu on the 49G+. > >>All 113 programs do need to be visible to normal users, since they are >>all intended to be user-level functions. Is there at least an easy way >>to make a soft menu item have the little manila-folder-like tab that >>they use for directories and sub-menus? Other than that, writing a >>nesting menu program would be trivial. > > You could use the following methods > A) use a graphical key to represent the submenu > then under that key you start a new (T)MENU > (don't forget the MAIN label) > B) use a real subdirectory with the same name > Again you should have a new MENU in your subdirectory > (with MAIN together with UPDIR command to go back up) > In case someone did not understand the above short desciptions > I'm sure James with give Prangeable explanation (-; ==== Will you release your software here as an example, please. Veli+Pekka > I eventually found out how to get it to generate the little folder grobs > from another thread here, and ended up writing another program called > NMENU that I added to the library, which generates a nested menu set > from a CST-like menu. > > After looking more deeply into the soft-menu system on the calculator, I > have came to a conlcusion about it that I would like people with actual > knowledge on the subject to confirm or deny. The calculator doesn't > really have sub-menus at all, not even the built-in menus, it just fakes > it. Now I don't mean this in a bad way, rather this is what an engineer > would call a design decision. Notice how specific menus can be > reached by typing in some integer between 0 and 256 and then executing > MENU? A sub-menu just calls [some other integer] MENU, and so they > appear to be nested, even though they really aren't. This was probably > a really good idea originally though (back in the 48SX or whatever > calculator first had the soft-menus), because I would hate to see how > slow it would be on a 2-MHz Saturn. The program takes about a second or > two to initially display the full library menu on the 49G+. > > > > >>All 113 programs do need to be visible to normal users, since they are > >>all intended to be user-level functions. Is there at least an easy way > >>to make a soft menu item have the little manila-folder-like tab that > >>they use for directories and sub-menus? Other than that, writing a > >>nesting menu program would be trivial. > > > > You could use the following methods > > A) use a graphical key to represent the submenu > > then under that key you start a new (T)MENU > > (don't forget the MAIN label) > > B) use a real subdirectory with the same name > > Again you should have a new MENU in your subdirectory > > (with MAIN together with UPDIR command to go back up) > > In case someone did not understand the above short desciptions > > I'm sure James with give Prangeable explanation (-; > ==== I intend to release the entire library in about a week or two. I need to clean up the documentation some more. I wouldn't mind putting the NMENU program out here early though. Is there an easy way to apply the Kermit-style HP-to-ASCII translation on the 49g+? or would just an uuencode of the file taken off of the SD card work for this newsgroup? > Will you release your software here as an example, please. > Veli+Pekka > >>I eventually found out how to get it to generate the little folder grobs >>from another thread here, and ended up writing another program called >>NMENU that I added to the library, which generates a nested menu set >>from a CST-like menu. ==== > > > aussi en italien, allemand, fran.8dais, espagnol ou esperanto ;-) I think it is very nice that even after the end of the ACO, aussi may still be spoken here. ==== > > > > Maintenant des messages en allemand ou autres passent aussi sur > > > comp.sys.hp48 sans d.8echainer les foudres de nos amis anglophones... Donc > > si > > > ce groupe est international, je ne vois pas pourquoi on y causerait pas > > > aussi en italien, allemand, fran.8dais, espagnol ou esperanto ;-) > > > > > > And, we English speakers enjoy the non-english posts--it is fun to try to > > translate. (Much more fun than French class ever was--as there is material > > you want to know!) > > > > > > I guess if everyone talked in their own language, much less people would be > By the way where has he gone? I haven't seen any postings from him for a > while... Hei, Arno Who has ever been upset by my comments (except JYA) ? Kuka on koskaan hermostunut kommenteistani (paitsi JIA)? I just got my new HD back on-line. Sain juuri uuden KL:ni takaisin linjoille (A warranty replacement by GNT) (GNT:n takuuvaihto) BPU ==== Just be given a HP48SX without any manual. The 4 basics ops I can do :-) but I would like to go further. Any idea where I could download pdf manuals, or buy them, even heavily used, or any other suggestion ? Herve, Paris, France ==== Herve Herv.8e Chappe a .8ecrit dans le message de > Just be given a HP48SX without any manual. The 4 basics ops I can do :-) but > I would like to go further. Any idea where I could download pdf manuals, or > buy them, even heavily used, or any other suggestion ? > Herve, Paris, France > > X-Face: #0?irvdFiM!(Tpl}/tO%_kuSW_^9G5aeIEnY1uNPcd@N_U.B30*[%N-cnqSC,rEfeqm:b oR({RM{x03]Iv}^2xc7J][^MkbL3DYdLevZ$&h0WbH!i:>O1i#FLy/mO2G~xMF *uQnfN4xre8v9%0fqg;i.!ymm~6w2nEx);Q~Q*8&dUO(fn ==== > Just be given a HP48SX without any manual. The 4 basics ops I can do :-) but > I would like to go further. Any idea where I could download pdf manuals, or > buy them, even heavily used, or any other suggestion ? > Herve, Paris, France Check http://www.courbis.com Paul's courbis books (about Machine Language programmiong) are freely available on this site As far as I rememebr they include a short intro on standard HP48's programming/usage -- Ceci est une signature automatique de MesNews. Site : http://mesnews.no-ip.com ==== Check http://www.hpmuseum.com for their scanned manuals. They«re somewhere on the first 5 CD«s. Costs alittle but then again so does every hobby :). BR Matti Sweden ==== > Just be given a HP48SX without any manual. The 4 basics ops I can do :-) > but I would like to go further. Any idea where I could download pdf > manuals, or buy them, even heavily used, or any other suggestion ? > Herve, Paris, France Search back through the archives on google, the manuals are available. ==== Great tip, thank's... but excuse my ignorance : how do you du to search back through the archives on google ? This must be a newbee question, but I have to raise it once in my life.. Herve Eugene a .8ecrit dans le message de > > > Just be given a HP48SX without any manual. The 4 basics ops I can do :-) > > but I would like to go further. Any idea where I could download pdf > > manuals, or buy them, even heavily used, or any other suggestion ? > > Herve, Paris, France > Search back through the archives on google, the manuals are available. > ==== > Great tip, thank's... but excuse my ignorance : > how do you du to search back through the archives on google ? > This must be a newbee question, but I have to raise it once in my life.. > Herve > > Eugene a .95À¸rit dans le message de >> >> > Just be given a HP48SX without any manual. The 4 basics ops I can do >> > :-) but I would like to go further. Any idea where I could download pdf >> > manuals, or buy them, even heavily used, or any other suggestion ? >> > Herve, Paris, France >> Search back through the archives on google, the manuals are available. >> http://groups.google.com/ It contains the archive of most NG's going way back years. ==== Found a track, thank's ! Herve Eugene a .8ecrit dans le message de > > > Great tip, thank's... but excuse my ignorance : > > how do you du to search back through the archives on google ? > > This must be a newbee question, but I have to raise it once in my life.. > > Herve > > > > Eugene a ?rit dans le message de > >> > >> > Just be given a HP48SX without any manual. The 4 basics ops I can do > >> > :-) but I would like to go further. Any idea where I could download pdf > >> > manuals, or buy them, even heavily used, or any other suggestion ? > >> > Herve, Paris, France > >> Search back through the archives on google, the manuals are available. > >> > http://groups.google.com/ > > It contains the archive of most NG's going way back years. ==== Please feel free to check this auction for an HP48G I am selling: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3058759161 ==== Closing in 36 hours. > Please feel free to check this auction for an HP48G I am selling: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3058759161 Copy from one, it's plagiarism; copy from two, it's research. Wilson Mizner (1876-1933) Mime-version: 1.0 ==== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Slightly off-topic but has anyone had any success connecting with Virtual PC on a OS X mac. So far IÕve had none. TIA, Britt ==== I also have been unable to make the 49g+ USB connection work with Virtual PC 6.1 on OS X 10.2.8 or 10.3. There is today a 10.3.1 update already which apparently addresses some USB connectivity issues (among a few others), but I sincerely doubt the update will help with this problem. With a Mass-Storage-Device compliant SD card reader, it should be no problem reading 49g+ formatted cards with Virtual PC under OS X. Just don't use a multi-slot type of reader. Only the primary slot (usually the CF-slot) will be visible in VirtualPC. Get a single slot SD reader for this task. See my other posting on another thread with details of my problems re: the 49g+ and my Macintosh. Mike Mander > Slightly off-topic but has anyone had any success connecting with Virtual PC > on a OS X mac. So far IÕve had none. > > TIA, > > Britt > > > -- ==== > > I also have been unable to make the 49g+ USB connection work with > Virtual PC 6.1 on OS X 10.2.8 or 10.3. There is today a 10.3.1 update > already which apparently addresses some USB connectivity issues (among > a few others), but I sincerely doubt the update will help with this > problem. > > With a Mass-Storage-Device compliant SD card reader, it should be no > problem reading 49g+ formatted cards with Virtual PC under OS X. Just > don't use a multi-slot type of reader. Only the primary slot > (usually the CF-slot) will be visible in VirtualPC. Get a single slot > SD reader for this task. > > See my other posting on another thread with details of my problems re: > the 49g+ and my Macintosh. > > Mike Mander > > > > Slightly off-topic but has anyone had any success connecting with Virtual PC > > on a OS X mac. So far IÕve had none. > > > > TIA, > > > > Britt > > > > > > -- hey this happened to me last night and windows XP said it found new hardware. i followed through with the install and now it works fine again. could be that it is loosing the install data. In any event that is how i fixed the problem. Travis ==== Are you talking about VirtualPC with WinXP running on a Mac or WinXP on a real PC? If you have the USB connection to the 49g+ working under VirtualPC, I would love to hear about it! ;-) Mike Mander > > > > I also have been unable to make the 49g+ USB connection work with > > Virtual PC 6.1 on OS X 10.2.8 or 10.3. There is today a 10.3.1 update > > already which apparently addresses some USB connectivity issues (among > > a few others), but I sincerely doubt the update will help with this > > problem. > > > > With a Mass-Storage-Device compliant SD card reader, it should be no > > problem reading 49g+ formatted cards with Virtual PC under OS X. Just > > don't use a multi-slot type of reader. Only the primary slot > > (usually the CF-slot) will be visible in VirtualPC. Get a single slot > > SD reader for this task. > > > > See my other posting on another thread with details of my problems re: > > the 49g+ and my Macintosh. > > > > Mike Mander > > > > > > > Slightly off-topic but has anyone had any success connecting with Virtual PC > > > on a OS X mac. So far IÕve had none. > > > > > > TIA, > > > > > > Britt > > > > > > > > > -- > hey this happened to me last night and windows XP said it found new > hardware. i followed through with the install and now it works fine > again. could be that it is loosing the install data. In any event > that is how i fixed the problem. Travis ==== > > Are you talking about VirtualPC with WinXP running on a Mac or WinXP > on a real PC? If you have the USB connection to the 49g+ working > under VirtualPC, I would love to hear about it! ;-) > > Mike Mander > > > > > > > > I also have been unable to make the 49g+ USB connection work with > > > Virtual PC 6.1 on OS X 10.2.8 or 10.3. There is today a 10.3.1 update > > > already which apparently addresses some USB connectivity issues (among > > > a few others), but I sincerely doubt the update will help with this > > > problem. > > > > > > With a Mass-Storage-Device compliant SD card reader, it should be no > > > problem reading 49g+ formatted cards with Virtual PC under OS X. Just > > > don't use a multi-slot type of reader. Only the primary slot > > > (usually the CF-slot) will be visible in VirtualPC. Get a single slot > > > SD reader for this task. > > > > > > See my other posting on another thread with details of my problems re: > > > the 49g+ and my Macintosh. > > > > > > Mike Mander > > > > > > > > > > Slightly off-topic but has anyone had any success connecting with Virtual PC > > > > on a OS X mac. So far IÕve had none. > > > > > > > > TIA, > > > > > > > > Britt > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > hey this happened to me last night and windows XP said it found new > > hardware. i followed through with the install and now it works fine > > again. could be that it is loosing the install data. In any event > > that is how i fixed the problem. Travis Mike, No real pc. I personally hate macs. Windows XP Professional is what I am running on. I have not had any more trouble with my comm4x since then so something worked. hey I have another post about not getting 49.bin to work on the emu49. have any idea? Travis ==== X > hey I have another post about not getting > 49.bin to work on the emu49. have any idea? Travis The 49G & EMU48 Saturn emulator are low-level hawdware wise different from the ARM9 based calc and a new EMU is needed The 49.bin ~2MB will not work on emu, which needs a ~4MB file Veli+Pekka ==== Will BZ49 uncompress files from a 48GX compressed with BZ4, or do I need to uncompress all my files and rewrite the code prior to transfer? Scott ==== > Will BZ49 uncompress files from a 48GX compressed with BZ4, or do I > need to uncompress all my files and rewrite the code prior to transfer? > I don't think it will have problem uncompressing the file itself. However you will probably have a problem with what has been uncompressed! If it was a program, it will certainly not work on your HP49 and may crash your machine ==== > > Will BZ49 uncompress files from a 48GX compressed with BZ4, or do I > > need to uncompress all my files and rewrite the code prior to transfer? > > > > I don't think it will have problem uncompressing the file itself. > However you will probably have a problem with what has been uncompressed! > If it was a program, it will certainly not work on your HP49 and may > crash your machine > An uncompressed program in user RPL won't function on a 49g+? Why not? What would be different? ==== Use ->STR to make it as a string, then STR-> (or OBJ->) on the receiving end 99% should go well I suggest setting ARPN & Approx. Mode on the receicing 49g(+) Veli+Pekka > > > > Will BZ49 uncompress files from a 48GX compressed with BZ4, or do I > > > need to uncompress all my files and rewrite the code prior to transfer? > > > > > > > I don't think it will have problem uncompressing the file itself. > > However you will probably have a problem with what has been uncompressed! > > If it was a program, it will certainly not work on your HP49 and may > > crash your machine > > > > An uncompressed program in user RPL won't function on a 49g+? Why not? What > would be different? > > ==== > An uncompressed program in user RPL won't function on a 49g+? Why not? > What would be different? > The 48G ROM is different than the 49G ones. When you type something like: << 1 >> Each object is replaced by a pointer in the ROM. All these pointers have moved between the two ROMS. So while the source code will be mostly identical on both machine, their binary image would not.. ==== I transfered a directory from my 48GX to my 49g+ and wind up with a string that starts out HPHP48-R.Doesw this mean that I cannot transfer objects and directories from the 48 to the 49? ==== > I transfered a directory from my 48GX to my 49g+ and wind up with a string > that starts out HPHP48-R.Doesw this mean that I cannot transfer objects > and directories from the 48 to the 49? Yes, at least not as compiled objects; only as source code. If you're transferring from a 48GX to a 49g+, then that tells me that you're using a PC as an intermediary. Try transferring from the 48GX to the PC using Kermit in ASCII mode, with the 48's translation mode set to 0 or 1 (use the TRANSIO command if needed). Keep track of the angular mode (Degrees, Radians, or Gradians) and fraction mark (. or ,). On the PC, edit out the ASCII transfer header (%%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); or similar), and transfer that from the PC to the 49g+. Or you could wait and edit out the header on the 49g+. Anyway, once you have the source code string (without any header) on the 49g+, set its angular mode and fraction mark to match what you used on the 48, set it to approximate to avoid compiling reals as exact integers, put the string on the stack, and do STR-> or OBJ-> to compile it. Possible complications would be names from the earlier model that happen to match command or library names on the newer model, and commands that have the same name but not quite the same result on different calculators. -- James ==== I can remove the header, but am having difficulty with STR-> and OBJ->. Both say invalid object. > > I transfered a directory from my 48GX to my 49g+ and wind up with a string > > that starts out HPHP48-R.Doesw this mean that I cannot transfer objects > > and directories from the 48 to the 49? > > Yes, at least not as compiled objects; only as source code. If you're > transferring from a 48GX to a 49g+, then that tells me that you're using > a PC as an intermediary. Try transferring from the 48GX to the PC using > Kermit in ASCII mode, with the 48's translation mode set to 0 or 1 (use > the TRANSIO command if needed). Keep track of the angular mode (Degrees, > Radians, or Gradians) and fraction mark (. or ,). On the PC, edit > out the ASCII transfer header (%%HP: T(3)A(R)F(.); or similar), and > transfer that from the PC to the 49g+. Or you could wait and edit out > the header on the 49g+. Anyway, once you have the source code string > (without any header) on the 49g+, set its angular mode and fraction mark > to match what you used on the 48, set it to approximate to avoid > compiling reals as exact integers, put the string on the stack, and do > STR-> or OBJ-> to compile it. > > Possible complications would be names from the earlier model that happen > to match command or library names on the newer model, and commands that > have the same name but not quite the same result on different > calculators. > > -- > James > ==== > I can remove the header, but am having difficulty with STR-> and OBJ->. Both > say invalid object. You could also use SREPL to change 0 CHR to 13 CHR Veli+Pekka ==== On the 49G and 49g+, you can force a string to be decompiled to a string suitable for editing by putting it on the stack and doing Left-Shift Cursor-Down instead of just Cursor-Down. Or EDIT instead of EDITB. This changes a null character to 00, a embedded within a string to , and a to for command line editing. Perhaps a better question is why you have a NUL in the string in the first place. Are you sure that you transferred it to the PC in ASCII mode? It should have a header like %%HP: T(1)A(R)F(.); which indicates an ASCII (source code) transfer, not HPHP48-R which indicates a binary (compiled object) transfer. > I can remove the header, but am having difficulty with STR-> and OBJ->. Both > say invalid object. Just how are you doing the transfer? -- James ==== > Perhaps a better question is why you have a NUL in the string in the > first place. Are you sure that you transferred it to the PC in ASCII > mode? It should have a header like %%HP: T(1)A(R)F(.); which > indicates an ASCII (source code) transfer, not HPHP48-R which > indicates a binary (compiled object) transfer. > I don't know. Perhaps from having compressed and decompressed the files on my 48GX? It baffles me. My headers are %%HP: T(1)A(R)F(.); The null characters are at the end of the string. > Just how are you doing the transfer? > I am doing an ASCII - Kermit transfer from the 48GX to a PC. Then I use Conn4x to download it to the 49g+. Scott ==== > > >>Perhaps a better question is why you have a NUL in the string in the >>first place. Are you sure that you transferred it to the PC in ASCII >>mode? It should have a header like %%HP: T(1)A(R)F(.); which >>indicates an ASCII (source code) transfer, not HPHP48-R which >>indicates a binary (compiled object) transfer. >> > > > I don't know. Perhaps from having compressed and decompressed the files on > my 48GX? It baffles me. My headers are %%HP: T(1)A(R)F(.); The null > characters are at the end of the string. > > >>Just how are you doing the transfer? >> > > I am doing an ASCII - Kermit transfer from the 48GX to a PC. Then I use > Conn4x to download it to the 49g+. I strongly suspect that the null characters were put there by Xmodem. As I understand it, Xmodem uses a fixed packet size, and pads the last packet, as needed, with trailing NULs to make it the correct size. But isn't Xmodem supposed to get rid of any padding characters before it finishes? Perhaps the implementation of Xmodem in the calculator or Conn4x is flawed? I can't use Conn4x for file transfers, but eventually I may look into how Xmodem with the 48GX and 49G behaves. Even so, it looks to me as if the file is arriving at your 49g+ as proper source code, and once the ASCII transfer header is stripped off, STR-> or OBJ-> ought to compile it. As long as the null characters aren't within an embedded string, they should be treated as separators and of no more consequence than any other separators. For example, if I add a series of space characters to the end of a source code string, they won't make any difference after compiling the source code, and the same with NULs. But the lack of a method for transferring source code via USB or SD card is a serious handicap with the 49g+. I understand that IrDA transfers do allow the use of Kermit, and, I believe, the ASCII transfer mode. But adding IrDA to a PC is extra cost, time and trouble. Let's hope that a future release of Conn4x will include ASCII (decompiled) transfers. -- James ==== > > I strongly suspect that the null characters were put there by Xmodem. As > I understand it, Xmodem uses a fixed packet size, and pads the last > packet, as needed, with trailing NULs to make it the correct size. But > isn't Xmodem supposed to get rid of any padding characters before it > finishes? Perhaps the implementation of Xmodem in the calculator or > Conn4x is flawed? I can't use Conn4x for file transfers, but eventually > I may look into how Xmodem with the 48GX and 49G behaves. That's good to know. In fact the portion of the string that is appended to the end appears to duplicate the last portion of the file.That extension of the file contains the NULs. At first it was nerve racking because I or I might not have recognized that. Scott ==== If I see things right, here, you have the same problem that I recently dealt with: Conn4x normally moves files from the PC to the hp49g+ as strings. You would need to use an intermediate program to change the string object to a program object. This has been discussed quite a bit lately, and there is a workaround that I use (at least). It involves emu48, the program EMU49ASC.BIN, AND your program in the form of a string. (Once you have your program on the PC): under this procedure, you would LOAD it using emu48, run the EMU49ASC.BIN program from emu48 on your program, which converts it to the binary format that Conn4x uses to then and only then be able to send you program as a valid program object to the hp49g+. I have been doing this a lot this last week, and while cumbersome, it does work. I've transferred back and forth at least a hundred times sub programs that are part of a larger structure, so that they can be edited more conveniently on the PC. I sure wish that Conn4x was a more mature and could offer to do that intermediate step dynamically. I don't think there is a tremendous amount of work involved to accomplish a change like that to someone intimately familiar with Conn4x's internals. This is indicative of the paradigm change at HP, from a truly customer oriented company to one of minimal customer focus. Unfortunate for everyone, since that business model will limit hp's marketshare which may make them conclude that there is a much smaller demand for this product than actually exists. But then, who knows what the next CEO will do ... > > >> Perhaps a better question is why you have a NUL in the string in the >> first place. Are you sure that you transferred it to the PC in ASCII >> mode? It should have a header like %%HP: T(1)A(R)F(.); which >> indicates an ASCII (source code) transfer, not HPHP48-R which >> indicates a binary (compiled object) transfer. >> > >I don't know. Perhaps from having compressed and decompressed the files on >my 48GX? It baffles me. My headers are %%HP: T(1)A(R)F(.); The null >characters are at the end of the string. > >> Just how are you doing the transfer? >> >I am doing an ASCII - Kermit transfer from the 48GX to a PC. Then I use >Conn4x to download it to the 49g+. > > >Scott > ==== > If I see things right, here, you have the same problem that I recently > dealt with: Conn4x normally moves files from the PC to the hp49g+ as > strings. You would need to use an intermediate program to change the > string object to a program object. > > This has been discussed quite a bit lately, and there is a workaround > that I use (at least). It involves emu48, the program EMU49ASC.BIN, > AND your program in the form of a string. (Once you have your program > on the PC): under this procedure, you would LOAD it using emu48, > run the EMU49ASC.BIN program from emu48 on your program, which > converts it to the binary format that Conn4x uses to then and only > then be able to send you program as a valid program object to the > hp49g+. > > I have been doing this a lot this last week, and while cumbersome, it > does work. I've transferred back and forth at least a hundred times > sub programs that are part of a larger structure, so that they can be > edited more conveniently on the PC. > > I sure wish that Conn4x was a more mature and could offer to do that > intermediate step dynamically. I don't think there is a tremendous > amount of work involved to accomplish a change like that to someone > intimately familiar with Conn4x's internals. > > This is indicative of the paradigm change at HP, from a truly customer > oriented company to one of minimal customer focus. Unfortunate for > everyone, since that business model will limit hp's marketshare which > may make them conclude that there is a much smaller demand for this > product than actually exists. But then, who knows what the next CEO > will do ... > > I tried a search on the topic and was unsuccesful, so sorry for the redundancy. Yes this is tedious and I have been successful by mucking around. Funny....HP support refered me to all the usual sites and this newsgroup, all of which I had been already utilizing. They really are abandoning thier customers, but then so isn't everybody. ==== > I transfered a directory from my 48GX to my 49g+ and wind up with a > string that starts out HPHP48-R.Doesw this mean that I cannot > transfer objects and directories from the 48 to the 49? > You can only transfer data in ASCII mode between a 48GX and 49G. Sending binary images will not work as the internals of the programs have changed between one machine to another ==== Aloha, I'm curious...did HP actually design the hardware of the 49G+ or is it something along the lines of a 48G emulation running on OEM hardware? Kai ==== > Point taken!!! > > > > What's the NG for? X snipping...as you, Mr. Look & Mr. Lightyear should do...please? ==== Forget my previous post. I went to Google to see what you were talking about. I see. Very sorry. EGL > >>Point taken!!! >> >> >> >>>What's the NG for? >>> > X > snipping...as you, Mr. Look & Mr. Lightyear should do...please? > > > > ==== > Forget my previous post. I went to Google to see what you were talking > about. I see. Very sorry. Look, Look (pun intended) Look, Ed...I do it myself almost all the time WHEN I think that the user *needs* to read the previous text but I still get these warnings (: not only from JYA) (because it's still against the netiquette) Veli+Pekka +don't worry, be happy ==== ??? Do I always forget to delete the post history?? Sorry! Point taken... I think... though mostly still confused! > ... > ... X > snipping...as you, Mr. Look & Mr. Lightyear should do...please? > ==== > You're right, I was throwing in too many ideas here. I am too X > Still, I see your point. > > > > > >> Let's get even more fundamental- the nontechnical coworkers of the > >> engineers and draftsmen all understand what a 180 degree turnabout is; X > >> And then there are kids- students, pre-teenagers really, beginning to > >> receive instruction on angles and circles. I think radians, polar > >> coordinates, etc., are kind of beyond the complete grasp of most kids > >> that age, no matter how bright, except for the gifted few. > > > > > > You are mixing two different notions, radians and polar coordinates. X > > teachers are so used to degrees that they teach degrees before > > radians. Polar coordinates is much more complex, and should > > not be taught before say 15 years when people understand what > > coordinates are. Can I wish for Complex Numbers in Polar Mode with Units? internally like Matrices with Symbolics and/or Integers eg. lists { 5._V 45._o} extaernally - that is: the user looks at pretty print: (5_V <) 45_o) AND naturally that should also work in the EQW and regardless of RAD/DEG mode, because angle unit is explicitly noted ==== If you want to really make it pretty for the user, why not even have it display the i, unless you think some might be confused by that. > Can I wish for Complex Numbers in Polar Mode with Units? > internally like Matrices with Symbolics and/or Integers eg. lists > { 5._V 45._o} > extaernally - that is: the user looks at pretty print: > (5_V <) 45_o) > AND naturally that should also work in the EQW > and regardless of RAD/DEG mode, because angle unit is explicitly noted > > > ==== how about because sometimes the i is a j! chic > If you want to really make it pretty for the user, why not even have it > display the i, unless you think some might be confused by that. > > > > > Can I wish for Complex Numbers in Polar Mode with Units? > > internally like Matrices with Symbolics and/or Integers eg. lists > > { 5._V 45._o} > > extaernally - that is: the user looks at pretty print: > > (5_V <) 45_o) > > AND naturally that should also work in the EQW > > and regardless of RAD/DEG mode, because angle unit is explicitly noted > > > > > > > ==== Ja Ja Ja... > how about because sometimes the i is a j! > chic > ==== ==== > > >What Mr. Parisse is saying: > > > >Option 1 - If solving a problem requires a mode shift, then error out & > >say the problem can't be solved in the current mode - rely on the user > >to change to mode manually & resolve the problem & then do whatever > >he/she wants to then. > > > >Option 2 - Offer to change the mode - realizing that the answer will > >be in that mode - AND leave the mode as changed - otherwise the > >answer may not be valid in the starting mode. For example - complex > >vs. real or approx. answer vs. exact answer. > > I think, instead, that in many cases is a useful thing that the > calculator does not reset flags that it has changed to perform an > operation. > In this way, it's possible to have some problem, for me. > For example, I need to create an operation (like SOLVE) that needs > complex mode on, while I'm using the real mode, Naturally, the > calculator ask for the switching, and then he completes the > operation. > But, after this, it may cause some problem setting the flag to real > mode again: this because probably now I've a complex result, and now I > need the complex mode to continue to work... > > For example, if I find roots of X^2+1=0 when I'm in the real mode, the > calculator asks for the switching, and then it gives results, that are > -i and i: after this, what's the sense of returning in real mode? If I > want to use these values, I must to remain in complex mode. In this > case, the changing of the flag is a good thing, for me, because, if > the calculator returns to the real mode, I must to switch every time I > use these results, and it's annoying. > > Daniele Good point, Daniele BUT that should be up to the user, so I suggest the -127 flagg used as: 0: Use CAS Modes/1:Keep User Mode or something more easy to understand Veli+Pekka ==== > >Good point, Daniele >BUT >that should be up to the user, so I suggest the -127 flagg used as: >0: Use CAS Modes/1:Keep User Mode >or something more easy to understand >Veli+Pekka > I agree with you. But I wanted to say that this flag problem is not as so horrible as you say. In this thread I read that this is a very bad thing the missing of flag reset in calculators. I say that it CAN be helpful, but, obviously, the user must say the last word in operations that he wants to do. Daniele ==== > > > My guess is that shes reeeeeaaaaaaaallllllllyyyyyy old. > > > She said she used HP calcs when i was in diapers.... hell, now thats a hag!!! > > > > I'm guessing she said that because your posts sound childish. I'm not > > saying your position is wrong, but you don't show any evidence > > supporting your claims. Kinda like me saying, HP's suck! TI's rock! > > > > BTW, please don't take my comments negatively. I'm just trying to > > explain my impression based on your posts. > > Yep. I pretty much said HP rules TI drools... but when the hag asked > and parisse and many others. I think its just reckless for a blind TI no, no, no...rather a HP 48GX user, I assume (: and I probably just make ass out of u and me) > user (JIC not talking about you, some of your posts are indeed cool) > to go into a newsgroups HP48 > And start ranting and complaining and indirectly insulting people. Yeah, because this is a HP 48 newsgroup - not 49 ...(-; > BTW, i wont take your comments negatively. Theres no need to. Also... > please dont take mine the wrong way... I just dont like to see *TI can > do that easy!!* > when reffered to an HP issue... im sure no one does... but keep making > those comments. I don't like them either...I prefer HP to win in all cases but that's not the CASE always...)-: Keep 'em coming, Bhuv, I love to hate 'em Veli+Pekka BTW: All of the above was mentioned to be negative for negative persons all others will only take it as a F-lying Finn opinion ==== X > Look at what Parisse said... you think you have knowledge in a domain > where you have not proven to have it. I actually think it has been > proven that you DONT have it. > > Cya! ---end of topic for me... what? read back the news There are other people that also want to preserve the USER flags settings http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=5493 AND the end of document for this one: http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3170 Sets flag -120 during execution to allow silent mode switches. Restores original state. AND - naturally - the one and only: ==== @pasdespam.wanadoo. .fr > > > >>I don't know if that is true. For example, the TIs treat the cases of > >>the integral of 1/x just fine. On the other hand, even in complex mode > >>the TI gives sqrt(z)=|z|. That is an obvious bug, and a serious one at > >>that. TI should fix that, immediately. > > > > > > That is not a bug, as far as I know. The variable should be specified > > to be complex by appending an underscore. sqrt(z_^2) correctly remains > > unevaluated. > > > Hmmm, the drawback of this option is that you > can not expect the argument of a square root to be squarefree > anymore. Another option would be to simply choose one > branch of the sqrt, that's mathematically less correct, but you > can really use the expression in further computations. > I'm anyway convinced that there is not one better option to handle this > because there is an intrinsic mathematical problem here: it can not > be hidden under the carpet, it is the user job to document himself > about the way each particular CAS handle this. > > > In my opinion, it should have been exactly the opposite: variables > > should be assumed to be complex unless specified to be real. > > > > I have the same preference, therefore on the 49, in real mode all > variables are assumed to be real, in complex mode all variables > are assumed to be complex except if they are in the REALASSUME > list. what is then flag -128 for ?? Vars are reals/Cmplx var allowed (1/0) What happens when a var [C=Contains a Complex] C1) but vars are reals C2) but the name appears in REALASSUME C1+2) but the name appears in REALASSUME & vars are reals C4) but calc is in Real Mode C4+1) but calc is in Real Mode & vars are reals C4+2) but calc is in Real Mode & the name appears in REALASSUME C4+2+1) but calc is in Real Mode & the name appears in REALASSUME & vars are reals AND What happens when a var [R=Returns a Real] R1)...R7) invert the above situation What if I have two variables or I am in exact and a numeric is included or if I am in Degrees mode and no trigonometric functions are involved but... maybe we need a new flag -127 for Change Mode Back/Stay Switched (1/0) ??? Veli-Pekka Nousiainen (no Dr. nor Math Major, 20 years from Engineering Math studies @ University of Oulu) PS: The -123 Allow Switch Mode/Forb. Switch Mode (0/1) should in my opinion give a different error message, like Sqrt(-4) SQRT Error: Complex Result OR SQRT Error: Complex Mode Required PPS: I would like to see modes stay as they did before in the HP calcs and as they do in major math packages AND degrees handled like before DEG 'SIN(X)' 'X' d (d=delta used as derivation function) => 'COS(X)*(pi/180)' ==== > > what is then flag -128 for ?? > Vars are reals/Cmplx var allowed (1/0) > Yes, you can force all vars to be real in complex mode with this flag. > What happens when a var [C=Contains a Complex] > C1) but vars are reals > C2) but the name appears in REALASSUME > C1+2) but the name appears in REALASSUME & vars are reals > C4) but calc is in Real Mode > C4+1) but calc is in Real Mode & vars are reals > C4+2) but calc is in Real Mode & the name appears in REALASSUME > C4+2+1) but calc is in Real Mode & the name appears in REALASSUME & vars are > reals > AND > What happens when a var [R=Returns a Real] > R1)...R7) invert the above situation Then the value has precedence if the expression is evaluated (alg mode for example), the variable if not (RPN mode) > PS: The -123 Allow Switch Mode/Forb. Switch Mode (0/1) > should in my opinion give a different error message, like > Sqrt(-4) > SQRT Error: > Complex Result > OR > SQRT Error: > Complex Mode Required > That would require adding an error message for each situation, it's easier to have 1 error message... ==== > [This is a reply and a sort of mini-challenge] X > Mini-challenge: Can anybody here think of a way to write an > invisible program that keeps count of exactly how many times each > key is pressed? To be bearable, the program would have to be > transparent to the user, that is, not interfere with regular > operations, nor noticeably slow down the user interface. It would be > very interesting to see an actual list of the keys sorted in most-used > to least-used order. Placement of keys could then be based on reality > instead of suppositions. It would also help individual users place > their key assignments in the most efficient locations. > > -Joe- This would require the use of SysRPL in the alphaENTER and perhaps keys stored in a vector using the keycode 11...105 as a pointer to each key counter ==== >> [This is a reply and a sort of mini-challenge] >X >> Mini-challenge: Can anybody here think of a way to write an >> invisible program that keeps count of exactly how many times each >> key is pressed? To be bearable, the program would have to be >> transparent to the user, that is, not interfere with regular >> operations, nor noticeably slow down the user interface. It would be >> very interesting to see an actual list of the keys sorted in most-used >> to least-used order. Placement of keys could then be based on reality >> instead of suppositions. It would also help individual users place >> their key assignments in the most efficient locations. >> >> -Joe- >This would require the use of SysRPL in the alphaENTER >and perhaps keys stored in a vector >using the keycode 11...105 as a pointer to each key counter > Don't know exactly what you're talking about here, but you could do it with some sys-rpl that overrides the system outer loop (stack replacement), if you just wanted to keep track of keys pressed in that context. If you wanted to record statistics for system wide key activity, whether in the SOL, a user application, or anywhere else, then you'd need to override the interrupt handler. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== >Don't know exactly what you're talking about here, but you could do it >with some sys-rpl that overrides the system outer loop (stack >replacement), if you just wanted to keep track of keys pressed in that >context. If you wanted to record statistics for system wide key >activity, whether in the SOL, a user application, or anywhere else, >then you'd need to override the interrupt handler. Another possibility that's more general than the stack replacement method (but not as general as overriding the interrupt handler) would be to override the ROMPTR's for the standard key defs. Even easier would be to use user mode with a set of special key assignments where each assignment contains a program or reference to a program that records the usage of its particular key. This is the most restricted version though, and I'm not sure if it would violate the transparency requirement as user key mode would have to be enabled all of the time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Jonathan Busby - before replying. ==== What are the difference between the entries point of HP 49 and HP 49 g+ ? ==== If I enter a definite integral in Numeric or Approximate mode which cannot be solved algebraically, I get an Undefined Name error. Otherwise the integral is echoed with a 't' appended to the variable of integration. E.g. S(1,2,e(X^2),X) becomes S(1,2,e(Xt^2),Xt). ->NUM evaluates the integral correctly in any mode, as does entering it in RPN. What is happening? ==== > If I enter a definite integral in Numeric or Approximate mode which cannot be solved > algebraically, I get an Undefined Name error. No idea here sorry - I rarely if ever use these modes while integrating. Otherwise the integral is echoed with a > 't' appended to the variable of integration. E.g. S(1,2,e(X^2),X) becomes > S(1,2,e(Xt^2),Xt). This is the CAS'es way of saying I can't integrate this. ->NUM evaluates the integral correctly in any mode, as does entering it > in RPN. What is happening? -->NUM will evaluate the integral numerically - you will get an inexact number. EG entering the integral of e^x from 1 to 2, and press EVAL. You will get -(w^1-e^2), which is an exact answer. if you go -->num instead, you get the approx answer of 4.67..... Hope this helps... Al HP49G+ Tutorials - http://alpage.ath.cx/hptute/ > > ==== Does the BZ program work at the HP49g+? ==== > Does the BZ program work at the HP49g+? Most supported pointers on the 49 are the same on the 490+ although some of them have been killed (that is, replaced by a NOP = No Operation) like the supported asm-pointers DispOff and DispOn). As I observed, also most so-called stable, not officially supported pointers kept their location. Some pointers like VERYSLOW and dowait have been reprogrammed in view of the different hardware platform. If you mean with BZ the BZ-compressor, it runs in Rom 1.22. Also all its refinements realized in OT49 below work perfect and, of course, faster. Running BZ does not anymore turn the screen off as before. Hence, the dance of the indicators is hardly visible anymore and should perhaps be eliminated at all, as well as its temporarily used DispOFF. This would make BZ still faster. Which asm-specialist is willing to do this ??? - Wolfgang http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49/OT49.htm ==== > This would > make BZ still faster. Which asm-specialist is willing to do this ??? No it wouldn't. The only reason my turning off the screen would accelerate the 49G was because of the very slow databus. The screen refresh 20% of the bus bandwidth, so turning it off free the bus. On the 49G+ with its 32 bits architecture and much faster bus turning off the screen would have no noticeable effect. ==== > > If you mean with BZ the BZ-compressor, it runs in Rom 1.22. Also all > > its refinements realized in OT49 below work perfect and, of course, > > faster. > > Running BZ does not anymore turn the screen off as before. Hence, the > > dance of the indicators is hardly visible anymore and should perhaps > > be eliminated at all, as well as its temporarily used DispOFF. > > This would > > make BZ still faster. Which asm-specialist is willing to do this ??? > No it wouldn't. > The only reason my turning off the screen would accelerate the 49G was > because of the very slow databus. The screen refresh 20% of the bus > bandwidth, so turning it off free the bus. > On the 49G+ with its 32 bits architecture and much faster bus turning > off the screen would have no noticeable effect. Agreed. But this is not my suggestion. This was removing from the BZ-code all effects which don't make sense anymore on the 49+. In particular the DispOff/DispON and the annoying permutation of the indicators. This is hardly noticable on the 49+ since the screen is on all the time. Suffices to show the busy indicator as long as BZ is running. That would probably make the BZ-code smaller (and therefore slightly faster). - Wolfgang ==== I'm surprised that no one has quoted the following URL : It contains a description of nearly all entry points of the 49G. (even two from the 49g+, one of them allowing to know whether you're on 49g+ or 49g). Yoann. ==== > It contains a description of nearly all entry points of the 49G. > (even two from the 49g+, one of them allowing to know whether you're > on 49g+ or 49g). Be careful. PTR 2F3BF yieds TRUE on the HP49+ (identifies ARM). But it doesn't identify the SATURN and may cause troubles (maybe a warmstart) on the HP49 ROM 19-6. This pointer is useful only under certain conditions. Already some weeks ago I explained here how to find the distinguishing pointer. Just hack the key assignments of the EVAL key or the Quoter key of the 49+. There you see it! Its mere existence clearly indicates that a new ROM for the HP49 is in preparation. It will be compatible with the HP49+ ROM or perhaps even be the same. Very often the above mentioned pointer will be run in the OS as follows: << Being a HP49+ I do this, otherwise I do that >>. This applies already to such a seemingly simple pointer as VERYSLOW which, as is well known, didn't work perfectly on emulators. And the HP49+ is just another one. The current ROM 19-6 is not compatible with ROM 1.22 of the 49+. The reason why I had to update several tools like Keyman in two versions, one for the 49, the other for the 49+. Luckily, this was not necessary in the games below in which critical pointers or keys are not involved :-) - Wolfgang http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/~raut/WR49/index.htm#Animations <3FB36C94.F74A4750@math.fu-berlin.de> <4e41df23.0311130727.15af8709@posting.google.com> ==== > Be careful. PTR 2F3BF yieds TRUE on the HP49+ (identifies ARM). But it > doesn't identify the SATURN and may cause troubles (maybe a warmstart) > on the HP49 ROM 19-6. This pointer is useful only under certain > conditions. This is how you can identify if you're running on a HP49G+ or 49G, without using any supported entry points (which has appeared in ROM 1.20 only). BUSCC XM=0 ?XM=0 SKIPYES { % Code running here will only run on 49G+ } BUSCC XM=0 Will set XM on 49G+ while it will stay clear on 49G. In fact doing: BUSCC HST=0 Will set the hardware status on the 49G+ and clear it on 49G, then you can test it ==== I have tried by putting pc made program on stack and in saved Var and running the bin program it either locks up or restarts the calc. What am i doing wrong? ==== I have noticed the following: with digital clock on, I have flickering and ON+UP does nothing; with clock off, I have flickering for the first second or so after I turn on the calc, then no more. I think I'll just leave the clock off :-) ROM1.22,CN33307466 I am become death, shatterer of worlds. Robert J. Oppenheimer (1904-1967) ==== > I have noticed the following: with digital clock on, I have flickering > and ON+UP does nothing; with clock off, I have flickering for the > first second or so after I turn on the calc, then no more. I think > I'll just leave the clock off :-) As Joe Horn explained the flickering happen when the calculator goes into idle mode: that is when it's doing nothing and no key has been pressed for 2 seconds. If the clock is not displayed then the screen will flicker once when the CPU goes into idle mode. If the clock is ON, the CPU will wake up every second to refresh the display. So you will notice the flicker more often with the clock on But it will happen in every case, just more or less often. Hopefully this can be fixed in future release ==== > with clock off, I have flickering for the first > second or so after I turn on the calc, then no more. Same here, with one additional piece of information. If I pause between key presses, or just enter numbers/values slowly, my calc will flicker once (within a second or so) following each key press. Like folks have already said, the calc must go into high-power mode when a key is pressed, then when the key is released, after a period of inactivity, say a second or so, it drops off into low-power mode. When it goes into low power mode, it must miss/skip a display refresh cycle, which is exhibited as a flicker in the menu key area. Matt ==== > > with clock off, I have flickering for the first > > second or so after I turn on the calc, then no more. > > Same here, with one additional piece of information. If I pause > between key presses, or just enter numbers/values slowly, my calc will > flicker once (within a second or so) following each key press. > > Like folks have already said, the calc must go into high-power mode > when a key is pressed, then when the key is released, after a period > of inactivity, say a second or so, it drops off into low-power mode. > When it goes into low power mode, it must miss/skip a display refresh > cycle, which is exhibited as a flicker in the menu key area. The flicker in my calc is so small (lifghts, eyes, view angle) that I'm more aorried about the slow mode clock frequency If the ARM9 is down to 75MHz from the 203 MHz is the slow mode 12MHz down to 4MHz or even slower? When you find the slowest possible slow-speed of the ARM9-calc combo thaen the curremt is also the lowest. Most of the time user just stares the screen for zillions of nanoseconds (from the CPU point of view) even between the keystrokes. I would also consider going to slow speed faster, like immediately after the display refresh if there is no activity on keyboard. This would further reduces the stansby power consumption. Veli+Pekka I'll probably upset a number of people on this group by saying that the