B31-BibleE.txt
Graham L. Kendall
Modified 9/3/2008
Email grahamkendall74135@yahoo.com
I am found on IRC Efnet/Undernet/Dalnet as glk
Files found at http://www.grahamkendall.net/
All are free to use any of this material without limit.
The author of this page is heavily influenced by experience and rationalism. 
*******************************************************************************
===
"Most scholars will reject the possibility that the Israelites destroyed 
Jericho in about 1400 B.C.E."
"One major problem remains: the date, 1400 B.C.E. Most scholars will reject 
the possibility that the Israelites destroyed Jericho in about 1400 B.C.E. 
because of their belief that Israel did not emerge in Canaan until about 150 
to 200 years later, at the end of the Late Bronze II period.
But recently, new evidence has come to light suggesting that Israel was 
resident in Canaan throughout the Late Bronze II period
Israel did not conquer the area, rather they emerged from the existing
population about 1250-1200BC. In other words Israelites are Canaanites
from the outset.
Jericho, on the other hand, was destroyed around 1600BC and by
earthquake not war.
==
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest
who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be
purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.
(Exodus 22:19 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death
by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. 
(Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

 If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him,
"You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." 
When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. 
 (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
==
Paul compared Christ with Adam. If Christ is a historical figure, 
then Adam had to be an historical figure. And the earth is REALLY flat.
==
Intelligence Design is religion. ID fails the 'falsifiability' test. Even if
it is false, it can never be shown to be false. How convenient. You can always
say that maybe some God is secretly making little changes to the world which
only appear natural.
We are very interested in learning more about nature, and make progress to
that end. But we don't feel the need to speak some vague word formula to feel
good about grasping the universe with certainty.
In an important way Atheism is an 'empty' position. It doesn't have a phrase
like 'God did it' to soothe any fear of uncertainty a person might have. 
What Atheism offers is an affirmation that it is ok to be careful and
conservative with the truth. Curious, but content to let our knowledge of the
world grow slowly and more surely than the pre-conceived and contradictory
religious molds.
Compared to the various religions which are quick to assert things about the
fundamental nature of life, the universe, and everything, the body of
scientific knowledge can seem 'empty' when it does not [currently] offer
answers to those same questions. On the other hand, the level of solid detail
is much higher in science. Religious schemes may reach far, but they tend to
look like insubstantial fluff for all their scope.
Christians have a mandate to turn other people to their religion.
Non-religious people have no mandate to convert people to atheism under any
doctrine.
If Christianity is true, what does that mean? 
On the good side it means god was very kind to give his only son to save us
from hell.
On the bad side it means genocide and slavery are often acceptable. 
==
Common sense approaches are not always a good way to find out the truth. 
They're just good at making people feel like they have the truth.
==
Different religious beliefs in conflict with each other seem like common sense
to various people. Obviously there is a general attraction to religions in
humanity, but the differences make it clear this attraction is a poor guide
to truth. 
Part of this is a common human failing: the notion that any answer is superior
to no answer. People just like to be able to express certainty, even if that
certainty is vague or not well supported. Religions say "Your purpose in life
is [x]", and many people will latch onto that no matter what [x] is just
because they want to be told something.
==
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death
by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. 
(Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. 
(Exodus 21:15 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. 
They are guilty of a capital offense.  (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and
thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.
(Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
==
The Catholics won't let the Mormons into their records any more.  
The Mormons keep baptizing the dead ones.
==
If God wrote the Bible, He wrote it with all the appearances of
having been written by several people - fallible humans with the
knowledge and attitudes of their culture. Written for an audience
of other people of the same culture. For example, it has the
appearance of having been written by people with the same level
of understanding of the natural world and the universe as most
other people of the Ancient Near East. 
==
Thomas Sheehan.  Professor at Stanford University... 
 "The Historical Jesus"
==
2Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,
that they should believe a lie: (King James Version)
==
"If Jesus is God, then it means that God sent himself down to earth to
sacrifice himself to himself because it was the only way that he could
convince himself to forgive all of us and change a rule that he made in the
first place." - John Armstrong 
==
Mark 9:1 And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing
here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come
with power." (Revised Standard Version)
==
"What each evangelist... preserved...  is not a photographic reproduction of
the words and deeds of Jesus, but an interpretative portrait delineated in
accord with the special needs of the early church."
- The New Testament, Its Background, Growth, and Content, 1965,
p86, by Bruce Metzger
==
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of
what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human
beings." - Albert Einstein
==
"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept I am unable to take
seriously." - Albert Einstein [Letter of 1946, Hoffman and Dukas]
==
Few intelligent Christians can still hold to the idea that the Bible is an
infallible Book, that it contains no linguistic errors, no historical
discrepancies, no antiquated scientific assumptions, not even bad ethical
standards. Historical investigation and literary criticism have taken the
magic out of the Bible and have made it a composite human book, written by
many hands in different ages.
The existence of thousands of variations of texts makes it impossible to hold
the doctrine of a book verbally infallible. Some might claim for the original
copies of the Bible an infallible character, but this view only begs the
question and makes such Christian apologetics more ridiculous in the eyes of
sincere men."
Rev. Dr. Elmer G. Homrighausen, United Presbryterian clergyman, American
theologian, former Dean of Princeton Theological Seminary - source
"Christianity in America", p. 121
==
www.atheiststation. org
==
Proverbs 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude
of counsellors there is safety.0 (King James Version)
==
I can understand where religion came from. Our ancestors looked around our
world in amazement, and could not understand ANYTHING. They had no idea what
that huge ball of fire in the sky was, they had no idea what made plants grow,
and water falling from the sky was a "miracle". They had to explain it somehow,
so our ancestors created gods. Each civilization created their own gods, and
thought the other civilizations were
crazy heathens.
==
Religion seems very useful for getting people to act and work together.
Kings got their irrigation systems constructed or palaces built by
telling the peasants that a god decreed it. Also very good for
inciting the troops to fight against nonbelievers and other assorted riff-raff.   
==
"Many translations do not convey exactly what the orginal biblical languages
- Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek - say. In this way translators avoid shocking
people by making the Bible seem like one book with internal consistency, rather
than an anthology, exhibiting developments of doctrines and a concomitant
inconsistency" - Bible Scholar Michael Coogan
==
King James 1 was a known homosexual who murdered his young lovers and
victimized countless heretics and women. His cruelty was justified by his
"divine right" of kings. Otto J. Scott, James the First
==
DEUTERONOMY 21:21  And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones,
that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall
hear, and fear. -KJV
==
LEVITICUS 20:2 "You shall also say to the sons of Israel, 'Any man from the
 sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning in Israel, who gives any of his
offspring to Molech, shall surely be put to death; the people of the land
shall stone him with stones. -NASB
==
Lev24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put
to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the
stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of
the Lord, shall be put to death. (KJV)
==
Prov  8:26,27 "when He drew a circle on the face of the deep"
==
Isa40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants
are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And
spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (NAS)
==
If there is a god who will make countless people suffer (including his
own son) to fulfill some prophecy, then I want no part of it. If this god
loves us so much and is so powerful then why subject the innocent to
unspeakable cruelties?
==
A wise person should doubt documents that come decades after the fact by
unknown
authors, and hardly anyone believes the hundreds of gurus today who claim to
see and speak to the spirits of the dead, heal, and predict the future. Every
reasonable person expects and requires extensive corroboration by contemporary
documents and confirmed eyewitness accounts.
==
Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh
in the children of disobedience: 
==
Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which
believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image
of God, should shine unto them. 
==
niv num 31:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a
man,
niv num 31:18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a
man.
==
DEUTERONOMY 13:15 you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with
the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it and all that is in it and its
cattle with the edge of the sword. -NASB

deu 13:16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public
square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt
offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be
rebuilt.

deu 20:13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword
all the men in it.
niv 2deu 20:14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything
else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may
use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.
==
Many people quite simply just want to believe," said Brian Cronk, a
professor of psychology at Missouri Western State University. "The
human brain is always trying to determine why things happen, and when
the reason is not clear, we tend to make up some pretty bizarre
explanations. "
===
Eccl. 9:5,10: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the
dead, they are conscious of nothing at all ... All that your hands find to do,
do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge,
nor wisdom in Sheol 
In the NT, the dead rich man held a converstaion and remembered his family.
==
Delusional disorder is characterized by the presence of recurrent, persistent
non-bizarre delusions. Delusions are irrational beliefs, held with a high
level of conviction, that are highly resistant to change even when the
delusional person is exposed to forms of proof that contradict the belief.
Non-bizarre delusions are considered to be plausible; that is, there is a
possibility that what the person believes to be true could actually occur a
small proportion of the time. Conversely, bizarre delusions focus on matters
that would be impossible in reality. For example, a non-bizarre delusion might
be the belief that one's activities are constantly under observation by federal
law enforcement or intelligence agencies... By contrast, a man who believes he
is pregnant with German Shepherd puppies holds a belief that could never come
to pass in reality. Also, for beliefs to be considered delusional, the content
or themes of the beliefs must be uncommon in the person's culture or religion.
Generally, in delusional disorder, these mistaken beliefs are organized into a
consistent world-view that is logical other than being based on an improbable
foundation.
Unlike most other psychotic disorders, the person with delusional disorder
typically does not appear obviously odd, strange or peculiar during periods of
active illness. Yet the person might make unusual choices in day-to-day life
because of the delusional beliefs. Expanding on the previous example, people
who believe they are under government observation might seem typical in most
ways but could refuse to have a telephone or use credit cards in order to make
it harder for "those Federal agents" to monitor purchases and conversations.
Most mental health professionals would concur that until the person with
delusional disorder discusses the areas of life affected by the delusions, it
would be difficult to distinguish the sufferer from members of the general
public who are not psychiatrically disturbed. Another distinction of
delusional disorder compared with other psychotic disorders is that
hallucinations are either absent or occur infrequently.
Here are the relevant elements for this case:
1. Stubborn insistence on holding demonstrably untenable beliefs
2. "Reasonable" basis for assuming this belief -- "reasonable" here is defined
by large numbers of adherents creating the psychological foundation needed
3. The belief arises from a cogent worldview insofar as the holder has
assigned truth values to undeserving propositions
4. Believers are indistinguishable from non-believers in all aspects of life
outside of the belief's sphere of influence
5. Believers adopt irrational and inflexible stances and are moved to
illogical actions by their beliefs
There are many examples of well educated believers (Francis Collins, etc.) so
the militant inflexibility of these beliefs is not strictly a function of
education though education is an important variable in this equation. And the
compartmentalizatio n of their beliefs does not lie outside of the definition
of a delusional mind. I singled out the line that makes religious belief
impervious to classification as a pathology but I disagree. I think this is a
case of affording the majority a "necessary" deference to avoid conflict. But
the behavior is a fit for the pathology in every other way. And, if I may
inject some of my own intuitions, I believe that neuroscience will in time
identify a distinct difference between the neurochemistry of a fundie and that
of a frethinker (to use a catchall term).

==
The Church after greater study, reflection and prayer was able to announce
the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in 1854..
the Immaculate Conception is the belief that "the most Blessed Virgin Mary
was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and
privilege of almighty God and in view of the merits of Christ Jesus the
Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original
sin..." (Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus). 
We believe, therefore, this exceptional, grace-filled holiness extended to
the very beginning of her life, her conception. 
==
Why I Became an Atheist: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity
By John W. Loftus 
==
 SSol5:4 My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels
were moved for him. (KJV)   True Love
==
"The Jesus I Never Knew" by Philip Yancey
==
Deu25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should
exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should
seem vile unto thee. (KJV)
==
http://www.skeptic.com/
==
Ronald Aronson  Living Without God, to be published next Oct 08 by 
Counterpoint Press.
==
2Kings 2:24 And he looked behind him and saw them, and cursed them in the name
of Jehovah. And there came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tare forty
and two lads of them.0 (American Standard Version)
SumOfwHoly: ?kjv 2kings 2 24
2Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed
them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the
wood, and tare forty and two children of them.0 (King James Version)
==
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it
grieved him at his heart.0 (King James Version)
==
Intelligence is the ability to learn from experience. Gods already know
everything so they are not intelligent.
==
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_claimed_to_be_Jesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_been_considered_deities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_complex
==
Examples of life-death-rebirth deities: Ishtar, Quetzalcoatl, Baal, Jesus,
Adonis, Cronus, Cybele, Dionysus, Orpheus, Persephone, Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma,
Horus, Osiris, Amun, Inanna, Odin, Balder, Attis, Mithras, Bacchus, Prosperina.
==
I know a few people who are otherwise intelligent,
but their brains contain the religious mind-virus that allows them to
believe that evolution did not happen, and that the earth is less than
10,000 years old.
==
After all, anyone who thinks that the sun *actually* moved all over
the sky on one day in a field in Portugal (but nowhere else in Europe)
just because a crowd of people there said it did is hardly an expert
in judging what is or is not science.

1. It is an establish fact of history that at approximately 12 noon
(Portugal time) on Oct 17, 1917 in the neighborhood of 70,000 people
including many atheists and other enemies of the church witnessed the
event and were terrified. Apparently numerous atheists and enemies of
the church converted.

Here's a miracle that occurred in 1995,
fromhttp://www.crystalinks.com/milkmiracle.html
"The Hindu milk miracle was a phenomenon reported to have occurred on
September 21, 1995. (see below) Before dawn, a Hindu worshipper at a
temple in south New Delhi made an offering of milk to a statue of Lord
Ganesha. When a spoonful of milk from the bowl was held up to the
trunk of the statue, the liquid was seen to disappear, apparently
taken in by the idol. Word of the event spread quickly, and by mid-
morning it was found that statues of the entire Hindu pantheon in
temples all over North India were taking in milk, with the family of
Shiva (Parvati, Ganesha, and Kartikeya) apparently the "thirstiest".

By noon the news had spread beyond India, and Hindu temples in
Britain, Canada, Dubai, and Nepal among other countries had
successfully replicated the phenomenon, and the World Hindu Council
(an Indian Hindu organization) had announced that a miracle was
occurring. The apparent miracle had a significant effect on the areas
around major temples; vehicle and pedestrian traffic in New Delhi was
dense enough to create a gridlock lasting until late in the evening.
Many stores in areas with significant Hindu communities saw a massive
jump in sales of milk, with one Gateway store in England selling over
25,000 pints of milk, and overall milk sales in New Delhi jumped over
30%. Many minor temples struggled to deal with the vast increase in
numbers, and queues spilled out into the streets. "

It's a miracle! Only God's preferred name is Ganesha, not Yahweh.

Oh, wait: "Seeking to explain the phenomenon, scientists from India's
Ministry of Science and Technology travelled to a temple in New Delhi
and made an offering of milk containing a food coloring. As the level
of liquid in the spoon dropped, it became obvious that after the milk
disappeared from the spoon, it coated the statue beneath where the
spoon was placed. With this result, the scientists offered capillary
action as an explanation; the surface tension of the milk was pulling
the liquid up and out of the spoon, before gravity caused it to run
down the front of the statue. "

Miracles happen all the time, often witnessed by thousands or even
millions of people.

2. The event involving the sun was, by some reports, witnessed by
observers up to a radius of about 30 miles from the epicenter. The
fact that it was not witnessed by all potential observers in that
hemisphere is problem for Hershey given the 70,000 witnesses at or
near the epicenter not mine.

When I was a child, bored silly for hours every week in a country
Baptist church, one way I would pass time is to find a single spot - a
dot on the pew in front of me, or sometimes a sparkly point in a
stained glass window - and just stare at it without moving my eyes.
The struggle against my eyes natural tendency to vibrate, the peculiar
sensations invoked by exhaustion of the retina to an unmoving image,
would start a dancing psychedelic of afterimages. A welcome, if brief,
alternative to looking around the inside of the church (and in
retrospect, an introduction to the sixties). Staring at the sun far
longer than one ordinarily would (who wants to miss one second of the
miracle?) would produce far more vivid and enduring effects. Coupled
with the mass hysteria, I have no doubt that many folks experienced
this, especially in retrospect. I have accidentally created false
memories in other people, and I was shocked at how easy it was.
Coupled with the strong desire for it to be true, I am sure that many
people saw a dancing sun (I read some of the accounts, and note that
the colors and behavior of the sun were different for different
people). They remembered it more vividly as time went on, also.

But only the local faithful (and perhaps a few socially-minded
journalists) saw the miracle. Why did no one else in the area see it -
does God's miracles depend on strong social support? Nobody sees the
Emperor's new clothes unless they are described first, and put in
context ("Everyone with taste can see the remarkable finery!"). But no
farmers a short distance away noticed the shadows dancing about?

I created such miracles for myself when I was ten. And I induced false
memories with an off-hand comment in a half-dozen sober adults.

I don't uphold truth of Naturalism.

Meaning: why consider a mundane natural explanation, when an
untestable supernatural one works for you? Tsk. And we accused you of
being anti-science.

Which, of course, is the reason I resurrected this funny little tale.
To show just how anti-science Tony is. It is, of course, physically
impossible for the sun to literally and actually dance around in the
sky (the angle that a viewer on earth would recognize as movements
would require that the sun, a gaseous ball, move literally hundreds of
thousands miles in less than a second). It is even more impossible to
do so and not have it observed by *everyone* on the the side of the
earth facing the sun. Moreover if it *actually* happened there would
be gravitational consequences everywhere on the earth given that the
suns mass is what determines earth orbit. Yet Tony believes it
*actually* happened. Not that it *appeared* to happen in the minds of
the people present there.

The explanation you (and I) gave, OTOH, does make sense and is
possible. If you accept a God inducing this illusion in the crowd
(for illusion it has to have been) to be a "miracle", it can even be a
"miracle".

Of course natural explanations are the simplest for these accounts.
Your god's miracle, if such this is, is once again hidden from non-
believers, using more miracles to hide them. What's the point? Don't
you think there is a real sun up there?
I can only conclude that:
1. You don't beleive the sun is real, or
2. The miracle happened only in the minds of the people there, and
possibly after the fact, or
3. God made a star (or the Earth) dance about, used other miracles to
subdue the effects (e.g. planets being ripped apart, as well as the
sun), and other miracles to make this bizarre event invisible to
others.
==
1Sm6:19 And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the
ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and
ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the
people with a great slaughter
==
Deu17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD
thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight
of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, (KJV)
Deu17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the
sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; (KJV)
Deu17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired
diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such
abomination is wrought in Israel: (KJV)
Deu17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have
committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman,
and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. (KJV)
==
Though "maybe, therefore probably" is not a logical way to arrive at any
belief, let's assume the Christian can somehow "prove" (with objective
evidence everyone can agree is relevant and true) that we have this power or
God has this desire. Even on that presumption, there are unsolvable problems
with this "additional" hypothesis. Right from the start, it fails to explain
why believers disagree. The fact that believers can't agree on the content of
God's message or desires also refutes the theory that he wants us to be clear
on these things. This failed prediction cannot be explained away by any appeal
to free will--for these people have chosen to hear God, and not only to hear
him, but to accept Jesus Christ as the shepherd of their very soul. So no one
can claim these people chose not to hear God. Therefore, either God is telling
them different things, or there is no God. Even if there is a God, but he is
deliberately sowing confusion, this contradicts what Christianity predicts to
be God's desire, which entails Christianity is the wrong religion. Either way,
Therefore, the fact that God hasn't spoken to us directly, and hasn't given us
all the same, clear message, and the same, clear answers, is enough to prove
Christianity false.
Christians can offer no evidence for their
most important claim, that faith in Jesus Christ procures eternal life.
Christians can't point to a single proven case of this prediction coming true.
They cannot show a single believer in Jesus actually enjoying eternal life, nor
can they demonstrate the probability of such a fortunate outcome arising from
any choice we make today. Even if they could prove God exists and created the
universe, it still would not follow that belief in Jesus saves us. Even if
they could prove Jesus performed miracles, claimed to speak for God, and rose
from the dead, it still would not follow that belief in Jesus saves us.
==
Pierre Lassalle (The Experience of Christ)
==
UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18, 1302) Pope Boniface VIII
"Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that
the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly
and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation
nor the remission of sins....Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define
that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be
subject to the Roman Pontiff."
Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus: "This is our last
lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's
commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."
StPeter_of: Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi
Apostolorum: "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not
admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or
as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe
faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."
 ==
Toddler starved to death
Last week I read the horrific story of a feral child, this week theres another
story of cruelty and neglect in the US papers: a toddler was starved to death
by members of a religious cult, including his own mother, for not saying amen
after meals.
Javon Thompson was 21 months old when he died.He would have been about 15
months old when members of the cult, Mind Ministries, stopped feeding him in
December 2006.
According to the Baltimore Sun, Javons mother, Ms. Ramkissoon allowed group
members to beat her son for trivial infractions such as disobeying orders to
say amen at meals, then slowly starved him to death. Apparently members of the
cult did not seek medical care for Javon when he stopped breathing. Hedied in
his mothers arms and was left in a room for more than week. The cultists
claimed that God was going to raise Javon from the dead. His little body was
eventuallystuffed into a suitcase anddumped in a storage shed in Philadelphia.
Ms. Ramkissoon and the other members of the cult were arrested in New York
this year. Along withsome of themembers of the group, his mother has been
charged with first-degree murder. She was also charged with child abuse and
reckless endangerment in relation to her sons death.
==
Encyclopaedia Britannica defines cognitive dissonance as "the mental conflict
that occurs when beliefs or conflicts are contradicted by new information" .
Wikipedia's headline gives it as the "uncomfortable feeling or stress caused
by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously" , further that the theory
"proposes that people have a fundamental cognitive drive to reduce this
dissonance by modifying an existing belief, or rejecting one of the
contradictory ideas"... or, from Britannica, by explaining away, avoiding the
new information, persuading themselves that no conflict exists, reconciling
the differences, or "any other defensive means of preserving stability or
order".
==
Exodus 12:29 -- the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt,
from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the
captive that was in the dungeon
==
He's BACK!
He is known variously as Vissarion, The Teacher, and Jesus of Siberia and his
followers believe that he really is the Messiah.
Sergey Anatolyevitch Torop, (born January
14, 1961) known by his followers as Vissarion (?), is a Russian
mystic. He founded and heads a religious movement known as the Church of the
Last Testament with its head church in the Siberian Taiga in the Minusinsk
Depression east of Abakan, in the southern Siberia Kuraginsk district of
Krasnoyarsk territory. He has around 4,000 followers (called Vissarionites) in
around thirty villages in the immediate vicinity of his base at Sun City, while
having approximately 10,000 followers around the world.
Vissarion claims to be a reincarnation of Jesus. He teaches reincarnation,
veganism, and the impending end of the world, or at least of civilization as
we know it. In May 1990, aged 29, Vissarion claims to have experienced a
mystical revelation. He first spoke publicly in Minusinsk on 18 August 1991.
He founded the "Church of the Last Testament" (?  
Tserokvy Poslednego Zaveta), also known as "Community of Unified Faith".
He was born in Krasnodar; after service in the Red Army, he settled in
Minusinsk. He worked as a traffic policeman before losing his job in 1989. In
1991 he was "reborn" as Vissarion, the returned Jesus Christ. In his system
this does not make him God, but instead the word of God. His religion combines
elements of the Russian Orthodox Church with Buddhism, apocalypticism,
collectivism, and ecological values. His followers observe strict regulations,
are vegans,[1] and are allowed no vices such as smoking or drinking alcohol.
Money is banned. The aim of the group is to unite all religions on Earth.
Vissarion is also a painter.
Tiberkul, the settlement in the Taiga, was established in 1994 on a territory
of 2.5 square kilometres, and today counts some five thousand inhabitants,
largely living autochthonous and on ecological principles. It is centered
around the villages of Petropavlovka and Cheremshanka, at ca. [show location
on an interactive map] 5353N, 9345E. The settlement is now also called
Ecopolis and has a three-tiered structure: the Town itself (Abode of Dawn),
the Heavenly Abode, and the Temple Peak.
Vissarion's sect is estimated to have some ten thousand adherents, with claims
of up to 50,000 adherents in eighty-three communities spread over 150 square
kilometers.
Since 1992, biographer Vadim Redkin (born 1958) has published an annual volume
detailing Vissarion's activities. Vissarion has attracted a number of followers
from Germany's esoteric subculture, and seven volumes of Vadim's account have
been translated into German.
==
Job 1:18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and
said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest
brother's house:0 (King James Version)
JOB 1:19 and behold, a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck
the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people and they died;
and I alone have escaped to tell you. "
==
Believing the natural laws of nature were suspended for some ramdom women in
the middle of the desert seems rather unlikely..
==
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/luther-on_mary.htm
Luther worshipped Mary.
==
"Overall, translators know that the Bible is the product of cultures whose
modes of life and thought were very different from ours. In some cases, the
Bible's philosophy is so barbaric and violent that it defies explaining why
anyone would consider it sacred at all." - Bible Scholar Hector Avalos
==
 St Augustine said it quite openly: 'There is another form of temptation, even
more fraught with danger.  This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which
drives us to try and discover the secrets of nature,  those secrets which are
beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing and which man should
not  wish to learn'
==
"He who begins by loving Christianity better than Truth, will proceed by
loving his sect or church better than Christianity, and end in loving himself
better than all." - Samuel Taylor Coleridge
==
It was Philo of Alexandria who introduce the concept of Logos, which he
called the Son of God, the  Paraclete, the mediator between God and man.
All these were later shamelessly plagiarized by Christians  to refer to Jesus.

==
Justin Martyr can offer no better explanation why Christianity is so similar
to other preexisting  religions other than declaring it to be the work of
"wicked devils". 
==
Once again, it appears to me that all I have been taught about the inspiration
of the Bible is false.  Deep down inside me, I have a very, very strong
suspicion that the Bible is human and not divine through  and through...
" - (Ken Daniels "From Missionary Bible Translator to Agnostic" )
==
"If the concept of a father who plots to have his own son put to death is
presented to children as  beautiful and worthy of society's admiration, what
types of human behavior can be presented to them as  reprehensible?"
- Ruth Green, author of "The Born Again Skeptic's Guide to the Bible"
==
Few intelligent Christians can still hold to the idea that the Bible is an
infallible Book, that it contains no linguistic errors,
no historical discrepancies, no antiquated scientific assumptions, not even
bad ethical standards. Historical investigation and literary criticism have
taken the magic out of the Bible and have made it a composite human book,
written by many hands in different ages.
The existence of thousands of variations of texts makes it impossible to hold
the doctrine of a book verbally infallible. Some might claim for the original
copies of the Bible an infallible character, but this view only begs the
question and makes such Christian apologetics more ridiculous in the eyes of
sincere men."
Rev. Dr. Elmer G. Homrighausen, United Presbryterian clergyman, American
theologian, former Dean of Princeton Theological Seminary - source
"Christianity in America", p. 121
==
Mat 3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased. 
==
Religion rapes minds but its greatest victims are the
innocent and impressionable youngsters taught at a young age to close their
minds to all but a narrow and impoverished view of the world.
==
How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded,
This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets
said, grander, more subtle, more elegant? Instead they say, No, no, no! My god
is a little god, and I want him to stay that way. A religion, old or new, that
stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might
be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the
conventional faiths.`
-Carl Sagan

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have
expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then
it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our
science can reveal it.
-Albert Einstein
==
Deu21:11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire
unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
Deu21:12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her
head, and pare her nails;
(KJV)Deu21:13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and
shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month:
and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be
thy wife.
Deu21:14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou
shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for
money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
(KJV)
==
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capybara
"During the Christian celebration of Lent, capybara meat is especially
popular as it is claimed that the Catholic church, in a special
dispensation, classified the animal as a fish in the 16th century
[it's the largest living rodent]. There are differing accounts of how
the dispensation arose. The most cited refers to a group of 16th
Century missionaries who made a request which implied that the semi-
aquatic capybara might be a fish and also hinted that there would be
an issue with starvation if the animal wasn't classified as suitable for lent."
==
Ronald Enroth, a sociology professor at Westmont College in Santa Barbara 
wrote his 1992 book "Churches That Abuse,
==
http://ffrf.org/nontracts/freethinker.php
Freethinkers are convinced that religious claims have not withstood the tests
of reason. Not only is there nothing to be gained by believing an untruth, but
there is everything to lose when we sacrifice the indispensable tool of reason
on the altar of superstition.
==
Marvin Olasky and John Perry's book, "Monkey Business: 
The True Story of the Scopes Trial" (2005).

Edward Larson's "Summer of the Gods" about trial
==
"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely
necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman
Pontiff." Pope Boniface VIII (Papal Bull 'Unam Sanctam'))
==
What is a Good Righteous Person?
Please answer the following questions.
1. Does a good righteous person strive for peace in this world?
Jesus didnt. In Matthew 10:34, Jesus states, You must not think that I have
come to bring peace to the earth: I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a
sons wife against her mother-in-law; and a man will find his enemies under his
own roof.
In Luke 12:49-53, Jesus says: I have come to set fire to the earth, and how I
wish it were already kindled! I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint
I am under until the ordeal is over! Do you suppose I came to establish peace
on earth? No, indeed, I have come to bring division. For from now on, five
members of a family will be divided, three against two and two against three;
father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and
daughter against mother, mother against sons wife and sons wife against her
mother-in-law.
2. Does a good righteous person respect other peoples beliefs?
Jesus didnt. In fact, he didnt respect anyone who disagreed with him. In John
10:1417, it is stated that Jesus said: I am the good shepherd; I know my own
sheep and my sheep know meas the Father knows me and I know the Fatherand I
lay down my life for the sheep. But these are other sheep of mine, not
belonging to this fold, whom I must bring in; and they too will listen to my
voice. There will then be one flock, one shepherd. In Luke 19:27, not only
does Jesus show no tolerance for another persons beliefs, but orders his
followers to kill them. Jesus says, But as for those enemies of mine who did
not want me for their King, bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.
3. Does a good righteous person steal or order others to steal for him?
Jesus did. In Matthew 21:13, it states that Jesus ordered some of his
followers to steal for him: They were now nearing Jerusalem; and when they
reached Bethphage at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples with these
instructions: Go to the village opposite, where you will at once find a donkey
tethered with her foal beside her; untie them, and bring them to me. If anyone
speaks to you, say, Our Master needs them, and he will let you take them at
once.
In Luke 6:13, not only did Jesus and his disciples take what was not his (ears
of corn), but they did this on the holy Shabbot when work, including gathering
food from the fields, was not permitted. At that time farmers left the corners
of their fields for the needy. Jesus went through the fields, not just the
corners, picking ears of corn. One Sabbath he was going through the
cornfields, and his disciples were plucking the ears of corn, rubbing them in
their hands, and eating them.
4. Does a good righteous person believe in beatings?
Jesus did. In Luke 12:4748, it states that Jesus says, The servant who knew
his masters wishes, yet made no attempt to carry them out, will be flogged
severely. But one who did not know them and earned a beating will be flogged
less severely. 5. Does a good righteous person believe you should let another
person take advantage of you?
Jesus did. In Matthew 5:3942, Jesus says, Do not set yourself against the man
who wrongs you. If someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn and offer him
your left. If a man wants to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as
well. If a man in authority makes you go one mile, go with him two. Give when
you are asked to give; and do not turn your back on a man who wants to borrow.
6. Does a good righteous person honor his or her parents?
Jesus didnt. Even though many times Jesus told his followers to honor their
parents, his actions were otherwise. This is illustrated in Matthew 12:4650.
He was still speaking to the crowd when his mother and brothers appeared: they
stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone said, Your mother and your
brothers are here outside; they want to speak to you. Jesus turned to the man
who brought the message, and said, Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? and
pointing to the disciples, he said, Here are my mother and my brothers.
Whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, my sister, my
mother.  Obviously, he didnt speak to them or acknowledge them as his family.
Again in Matthew 8:22, Jesus shows disrespect for a parent, but this time it
is for the dead father of one his followers. It is reported that Jesus says,
Another man, one of his disciples, said to him, Lord, let me go and bury my
father first. Jesus replied,  Follow me and leave the dead to bury their dead.
7. Does a good righteous person believe in marriage for those who choose it?
Jesus didnt. In Luke 20: 3437, Jesus says, The men and women of this world
marry; but those who have been judged worthy of a place in the other world and
of the resurrection from the dead, do not marry, for they are not subject to
death any longer. They are like angels; they are sons of God, because they
share in the resurrection. In other words, if one marries, that person isnt
worthy of going to heaven.
8. Does a good righteous person tell people to give up all their personal
belongings and follow him?
Jesus did. He told one of his rich followers that in order to win eternal
life, You know the commandments: . . . There is still one thing lacking: sell
everything you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have riches in
heaven; and come, follow me. (Luke 18:20 and 18:2223) Jesus wants the wealthy
to give all ones assets to the poor. Jesus didnt think about the followers
family or the followers future. A wise person who gives to others at the same
time takes care of himself or herself and his or her familys needs. Why does
the Catholic Church, which professes to follow Jesus, keep its vast wealth
instead of distributing it to the poor?
9. Does a good righteous person abandon his family or tell others to do so in
order to follow him?
Jesus did. In Luke 18:2830, Jesus said, I tell you this: there is no one who
has given up home, or wife, brothers, parents, or children, for the sake of
the kingdom of God, who will not be repaid many times over in this age, and in
the age to come have eternal life.
10. Does a good righteous person only have disciples who hate their parents?
Jesus did. In Luke 14:26, Jesus states, If any man come to me, and hate not
his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters,
yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple (a Christian).
11. Does a good righteous person show respect for nature?
Jesus was disrespectful toward nature. In Matthew 21:1820, it is stated: Next
morning on his way to the city he felt hungry; and seeing a fig tree at the
roadside he went up to it, but found nothing on it but leaves. He said to the
tree, You shall never bear fruit anymore! and the tree withered away at once.
Maybe it was not the season for the fig tree to bear more fruit!
12. Does a good righteous person treat animals cruelly?
Jesus did. In Matthew 8:2832, Jesus transferred demons from two men to a herd
of innocent pigs, which then perished. Jesus did not even seek out the owner
of the pigs, or care how it would affect the owners livelihood or even try to
compensate the owner for his loss.

==
The review of government records, undertaken by The Hill, found at least 24
trips for staff members to President Bush were paid for by churches or other
religious groups. Faith-based organizations paid for the most travel in the
time period, followed by universities and think tanks, which paid for 15 trips
each.
Groups paying for trips include the United Pentecostal Church, the
Congregation Kehilath Jeshurun, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and
the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.
Among presidential aides, the most frequent traveler was Goeglein, a former
special assistant to the president considered a key part of the presidents
political team. He took 23 trips worth more than $23,000.
[Former White House aide Tim] Goeglein, who is close to Bushs former top
political aide Karl Rove, often served as the presidents liaison to social and
religious conservative groups and helped found the Faith-Based Office.
Rob Boston, a spokesman for Americans United for the Separation of Church and
State , said his wish is to see the office shut down altogether.
The office has become a system of rewards for conservative Christian groups
who support the Bush administration, Boston said.
This story is yet another example of how this administration has no respect
for separation of church and state.
==
"Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on
pain of loss of life and limb." - Martin Luther
==
One problem with Pascal's Wager is that assuming an infinite payoff is a
cheat of sorts--one that renders calculations of expected value nonsensical.
As the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy points out, it turns out that
flipping a coin and believing in God only if it comes up heads also yields
an infinite expected value.
Another problem with Pascal's Wager is that it presupposes only two
possibilities: Either God exists more or less as Christians conceive of him,
or he doesn't exist at all. But from a standpoint of pure logic, this is
completely arbitrary. What if God exists and it is Muslims or Mormons or
atheists who go to heaven?
==
http://gods4suckers.net/archives/category/crazy-fundies/
==
"The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the
negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others... ..
[Copyists] make additions or deletions as they please." - Early Church father
Origen
==
According to the Harper's Bible Dictionary, "The ancient Hebrews imagined the
world as flat and round, covered by the great solid dome of the firmament
which was held up by mountain pillars, (Job 26:11, 37:18). The blue color of
the sky was attributed to the chaotic waters that the firmament separated from
the earth (Gen. 1:7).
floydfp: The earth was thus surrounded by waters above and below (Gen 1:6,7,
cf. Psalms 24:2, 148:4, Deut. 5:8).
floydfp: The firmament was thought to be substantial; it had pillars (Job
26:11) and foundations (2 Sam. 22:8). When the windows of it opened, rain fell
(Gen. 7:11-12,8:2).
floydfp: The sun, moon, and stars moved across or were fixed in the firmament
(Gen. 1:14-19; Ps. 19:4,6). It was also the abode of the birds (Gen.
1:20;Deut. 4:17). Within the earth lay Sheol, the realm of the dead (Num.
16:30-33;Isa. 14:9,15)."
==
The Duke of Alba in 1567 imposed a tribunal, the Council of Troubles, to
question and sentence heretics (Protestants). The Dutch called this council
the "Council of Blood," for it managed to publically execute thousands of
people before Alba was forced from the Netherlands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Troubles
==
http://webferret.search.com/click?wf6,+%2BMalleus+%2BMaleficarum,,www.malleusmaleficarum.org%2F,,alltheweb,1
Witch hunt handbook
==
George Lakoff  "Don't Think of an Elephant". Authority
and control is at the core of the modern conservative thinking.
==
Catholics could go to hell for purposely missing mass on Sunday or a holy day.
And eating meat on Friday was also a sin that could send you to hell. 
In the Œ60s the pope decided it was OK to eat meat on Friday after hundreds of
years of prohibition. Iıll bet that really pissed off all those people who
went to hell for doing it. Of course, it was also possible to murder someone
and go to heaven if you were sorry for your sin and made a Œgoodı confession.
==
By the reckoning of some, the Scriptures include 8,362 verses containing
1,817 predictions concerning more than 700 different matters. Of these, there
are more than 300 prophecies dealing with the coming Messiah.
==
The same surreal Christian nonsense still being peddled by the criminal
half of our society to the gullible half.  
==
Ephesians 6:5-9  Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters,
with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ.

Exodus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not
go out as the menservants do. (KJV)
==
 The putsch that imperiled America
In an administration in which ideology trumped justice, some said no.
Areport released Tuesday by the Justice Department has documented the Bush
administration's unprecedented -- and illegal -- effort to politicize the
ranks of the agency's prosecutors and civil service employees with
conservatives and true believers in the religious right's agenda.
Under then-Atty. Gen. Alberto R. Gonzales, a thirtysomething lawyer named
Monica M. Goodling -- a graduate of a law school founded by Pat Robertson --
had virtual veto power over the appointment of U.S. attorneys, other
prosecutors and immigration judges. Goodling, as the Washington Post reported,
demanded that candidates "espouse conservative priorities and Christian
lifestyle choices," especially on issues such as abortion and same-sex
marriage. The goal, according to the report, was to create a Republican "farm
system" inside the Justice Department.
==	 
Science Speaks: Scientific Proof of the Accuracy of Prophecy and the Bible
(Mass Market Paperback)
by Peter Winebrenner Stoner (Author), Robert C. Newman (Collaborator) 
==
Ge7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of
cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
earth, and every man: (KJV)
==
Mat24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all
these things be fulfilled. (KJV)
==
John A.T. Robinson, in his book Redating the New Testament.
==
The earliest unambiguous attribution of the first gospel in the canon to
Matthew is by Irenaeus around 180 CE, almost a century after the work was
written. It's attribution seems to be partly based - erroneously - on
Papias' remark about a different document - a collection of sayings by
Jesus in Hebrew.
==
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/
==
Enoch was quoted as a prophetic text in the New Testament (Letter of Jude
(in Jude 14-15) with also a probable reference in I Peter 3:19,20 to
Enoch 6-36, especially 21, 6; 2 Enoch 7:1-5)
==
mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and
drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into
the ark,
mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall
also the coming of the Son of man be.
==
Jesus' populist message is probably why he amounted to more than a
blip on the historical radar, because it was in a time where most people felt
oppressed, and liked the idea of a god who was on their side.
==
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp
==
Why in the garden of eden was there a flaming sword when men had not made
swords yet or gone to war?
==
For me, the relevant point for us
is to note the toxic connection between
right-wing ("conservative" ) politics and the
Christian faith, which too
often links violence born of ignorance,
frustration, and impotence with an assurance
of righteousness, a promise of foregiveness,
and the promise of everlasting reward.
==
Man has always used god(s) to explain things we couldnıt
explain. Over time we have been able to explain more and more. No longer do we
believe in a sun god that must be angry during long droughts. Why is it that
ancient polytheist religions are seen as mythology; we look at the ancients as
perhaps ignorant in their beliefs, such as sacrificing people to a god in hopes
that this yearıs crops will fare better than last yearıs. 
==
Don't forget Atum and Nahosh, Ananta, Avastis, Shesha, Ahi. Aapep, 
Quetzalcoatl, Bobbi-Bobbiand that unnamed serpent who stole the secret of 
eternal life from Gilgamesh. Isn't it funny that creation myths all over 
the world involve snakes?
===
Kenneth Copeland's prosperity empire

In the gentle hills of north Texas, televangelist Kenneth Copeland has built a
religious empire teaching that God wants his followers to prosper.
Over the years, a circle of Copeland's relatives and friends have done just
that, The Associated Press has found. They include the brother-in-law with a
lucrative deal to broker Copeland's television time, the son who acquired
church-owned land for his ranching business and saw it more than quadruple in
value, and board members who together have been paid hundreds of thousands of
dollars for speaking at church events.
Church officials say no one improperly benefits through ties to Copeland's
vast evangelical ministry, which claims more than 600,000 subscribers in 134
countries to its flagship "Believer's Voice of Victory" magazine. The board of
directors signs off on important matters, they say. Yet church bylaws give
Copeland veto power over board decisions.
While Copeland insists that his ministry complies with the law, independent
tax experts who reviewed information obtained by the AP through interviews,
church documents and public records have their doubts. The web of companies
and non-profits tied to the televangelist calls the ministry's integrity into
question, they say.
"There are far too many relatives here," said Frances Hill, a University of
Miami law professor who specializes in nonprofit tax law. "There's too much
money sloshing around and too much of it sloshing around with people with
overlapping affiliations and allegiances by either blood or friendship or just
ties over the years. There are red flags all over these relationships."
Copeland, 71, is a pioneer of the prosperity gospel, which holds that
believers are destined to flourish spiritually, physically and financially _
and share the wealth with others.
His ministry's 1,500-acre campus, behind an iron gate a half-hour drive from
Fort Worth, is testament to his success. It includes a church, a private
airstrip, a hangar for the ministry's $17.5 million jet and other aircraft,
and a $6 million church-owned lakefront mansion.
Already a well-known figure, Copeland has come under greater scrutiny in
recent months. He is one target of a Senate Finance Committee investigation
into allegations of questionable spending and lax financial accountability at
six large televangelist organizations that preach health-and-wealth theology.
All have denied wrongdoing. But Copeland has fought back the hardest, refusing
to answer most questions from the inquiry's architect, Republican Sen. Charles
Grassley of Iowa.
Copeland's church also has invited an Internal Revenue Service audit, which
would keep information private, and has launched a sophisticated Web site,
Believers Stand United, to "help set the record straight."
The Senate committee didn't set out to determine whether Copeland or the
others broke the law, although it could provide information to the Internal
Revenue Service if something seems flagrantly wrong, a committee aide said.
The main goal, Grassley has said, is to figure out whether existing tax laws
governing churches are adequate, which could carry sweeping implications for
all religious organizations.
The committee could subpoena Copeland if he remains uncooperative. Neither he
nor John Copeland, his son and the ministry's chief executive officer,
responded to interview requests.
But Lawrence Swicegood, spokesman for Kenneth Copeland Ministries, said in
written responses to questions that no Copeland family members receive
improper benefits through their ties to the church.
All revenue from the church's business interests _ including an oil and
natural gas company it owns _ go into the church, Swicegood said.
He said that Kenneth Copeland has never exercised his veto power over board
decisions, a provision meant for emergency use. Even so, Swicegood said, the
board is scheduled to meet in August to vote on taking away that ability.
____
Kenneth Copeland has always dreamed big.
Growing up in West Texas next to an Army air base, Copeland wanted to fly. He
also wanted to sing pop songs. He realized both ambitions and didn't stop
there.
In 1957, when he was 20, Copeland scored a Top 40 hit called "Pledge of Love"
and sang on "American Bandstand."
The journey that led to the pulpit began several years later. Copeland had a
born-again experience and enrolled at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Okla.
He worked as a pilot and chauffeur for Roberts himself.
Copeland was greatly influenced by Tulsa prosperity preacher Kenneth Hagin,
locking himself in the garage with Hagin's tapes for seven days before moving
back to Texas to start his ministry in the late 1960s.
Now a 500-employee operation with a budget in the tens of millions of dollars,
Kenneth Copeland Ministries has won supporters worldwide through its crusades
and conferences, prayer request network, disaster relief work, magazine and
television program.
Kenneth Copeland Ministries is organized under the tax code as a church, so it
gets a layer of privacy not afforded large secular and religious nonprofit
groups that must disclose budgets and salaries. Pastors' pay must be
"reasonable" under the federal tax code, a term that gives churches wide
latitude.
Copeland's current salary is not made public by his ministry. However, the
church disclosed in a property-tax exemption application that his wages were
$364,577 in 1995; Copeland's wife, Gloria, earned $292,593. It's not clear
whether those figures include other earnings, such as special offerings for
guest preaching or book royalties. Another 13 Copeland relatives were on the
church's payroll that year.
In the 1980s, Copeland's church purchased land on the shores of Eagle Mountain
Lake from the estate of a Texas oilman. Afterward, it discovered added value
underground: an oil and gas field.
Grassley, the senator leading the televangelist inquiry, has quizzed Copeland
about Security Petrol Inc., a wholly owned _ and for-profit _ subsidiary of
the church created in 1997 to manage that resource.
Swicegood said Security Petrol was established to protect the church from the
liability risk of oil and gas production and to minimize interference with the
church's religious activities.
No company officials _ including John Copeland, its president _ has received
compensation or profits from the company, and all revenue goes to the church
for general operations, Swicegood said. Reserves from gas wells in the
church's name were valued at $23 million last year, county records show.
Speaking at a ministers' conference in January, Kenneth Copeland accused
Grassley of twisting reality to make it look like the natural gas "was making
us rich off of the ministry's property. Bull. That's stupid."
It's not the only business venture tied to the church.
While natural gas platforms sprouted on church land, John Copeland, a
self-described "cowboy at heart," pursued a side business in cattle and
horses. Beginning in 1993, John Copeland leased church land to run his
business, El Rancho Fe, Spanish for "Ranch of Faith."
Five years later, the church separately sold John Copeland land for his ranch
and residence, Swicegood said.
Swicegood said appraisals were done to determine fair market value for leasing
and selling the land, adding that the lease benefits the church. John Copeland
must improve the land, and county officials confirmed the church gets a
roughly $100,000 annual tax break for putting it to agricultural use. The
church board approved the transactions.
While the purchase price is not public record, the 33-acre property would have
been worth about $93,000 that year, said John Marshall, executive director of
the Tarrant Appraisal District.
The land is now valued at $554,160 by the district.
Until recently, El Rancho Fe sold registered American Quarter Horses and three
other horse breeds. On its Web site, convenient location and the integrity of
the Copeland name were used as selling points.
"We are a family you know and a family you trust," it said.
John Copeland and his wife, Marty, no longer sell horses but continue to
operate the cattle business, Swicegood said.
Ellen Aprill, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles and a former
U.S. Treasury Department official, said leasing and selling land to the
church's top executive raises concerns. Under IRS rules, nonprofits can be
penalized or lose their tax-exempt status if an executive, board member or
other insider receives an economic benefit above and beyond what the
organization gets in return.
"The church and its board must take great care to make sure the payments are
fair to the church," Aprill said. "The church says it does. But is not clear
how we can know."
___
Located in an office complex in a north Dallas suburb, Integrity Media is the
kind of company that plays a little-known but important role in the world of
televangelism: negotiating the purchase of television time for Christian
ministries.
Douglas Neece, the company's president, said Kenneth Copeland Ministries is
Integrity Media's biggest client, accounting for just over 50 percent of its
business.
Neece is Kenneth Copeland's brother-in-law. Neece's son, Joel, also works for
the company.
The church's board was informed of Neece's relationship to the Copelands,
Swicegood said. Their television time is bought at market rates and the
ministry gets a discount from Integrity Media, he said.
Douglas Neece said his company charges a "deeply discounted" commission below
the industry standard of 15 percent. "We earn our money," Neece said. "That's
just the way it is.
"We have nothing to hide."
The money involved is substantial. In a 1997 filing in Tarrant County,
Copeland's church said it paid a "related party" $22 million for "telecast and
mass media expense" that year and received a discount of $1.7 million on the
transaction. Similar figures were cited for 1996.
Integrity Media, meanwhile, is the parent company to a horse-breeding
operation and real estate company that owns a Learjet, records show. Although
they are wholly owned subsidiaries of Integrity Media, Neece played down the
connections.
"The subsidiaries don't have anything to do with the media-buying
corporation," he said. "We've had several through the years, and these things
are not connected with the Copeland ministry."
Whatever the venture _ whether it's buying TV time, land deals with a church
executive or natural gas wells _ Kenneth Copeland Ministries cites its
11-member board of directors as an important check on the organization's
integrity.
Kenneth Copeland serves as board chairman, and his wife, Gloria, is a board
member. Records show other members include or have included fellow
televangelists Jesse Duplantis, Mac and Lynne Hammond, and Jerry and Carolyn
Savelle; Oklahoma architect Loyal Furry; retired Texas pastor Harold Nichols;
and Arkansas businessman John Best.
As chairman, Copeland has veto power over any resolution he deems "not in the
best financial or operational interests of the Church or not in furtherance of
the nonprofit religious purposes of the Church," church bylaws say.
Such veto power is highly unusual, say academics who study nonprofits.
Swicegood said the provision was meant to give Copeland emergency power to
prevent the church from doing anything "repugnant to its Christian purposes
and mission" _ although the bylaws don't lay that out. Swicegood said the
church plans to remove that provision and adopt others that "reflect
contemporary best practices in nonprofit governance."
Board member Best, in a written response to questions, said he's received "100
percent accessibility to anything I wanted to see and have always seen the
highest level of integrity and honesty."
Other board members either declined comment, did not respond to interview
requests or could not be located. The church has emphasized that board members
act in the church's best interest.
Some board members, however, receive a perk that experts like Hill, of the
University of Miami, said undermines their independence. While board members
don't get salaries, some who are ministers get paid for speaking at church
events through offerings and honorariums, Swicegood confirmed.
The sums involved are usually kept secret. But in seeking tax exemption for
its aircraft fleet in the late 1990s, the church revealed that it paid board
members a total of $87,000 in "cash contributions" and almost $1 million in
honorariums and "benefit purposes" in 1996 and '97.
Swicegood said the church's independent compensation committee approves all
payments to board members.
Marilyn Phelan, a Texas Tech University law professor and author on nonprofit
law, said the practice could pose problems in an IRS audit. Both the IRS and
Texas state law prohibit benefits beyond reasonable compensation for insiders,
including board members, she said. If violations are found, nonprofits can lose
their tax-exempt status and board members can face penalty taxes.
As the Senate Finance Committee considers its next step, Copeland is not
backing down. His ministry is portraying the inquiry as an attack on religious
liberty.
At the same time, it is moving forward with a big fund-raising project:
soliciting donations for new television equipment so Copeland can be broadcast
in high-definition.

==
I have enough experience with schizophrenics to recognize one. hell, one of
my friends used to think he was the antichrist, saw signs everywhere.
==
Cor16:22 I pray that God will put a curse on everyone who doesn't love
the Lord. And may the Lord come soon. (CEV)
==
Until the 19th century, boy choristers of the Sistine Chapel were
routinely castrated to preserve their singing voice,
==
The ghetto in Nuremberg was burned down in the 14th century in order to
claim the property as a building site for the church....while the Jews were
still inside.
==
 REVELATION 1:16 And in His right hand He held seven stars; and out of His
mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining
in its strength. -NASB
==
"I always wondered if those WWJD bracelets worked, so I bought one the other
day. I was in movie theater and a guy starts talking on his cell phone.
Wha?!?! So I almost went off on him, but then I looked at my bracelet, and
thought: Wait a minute, what would Jesus do? So I lit him on fire and sent
him to hell.
==
Psalm 139 "I shall hate thine enemies with perfect hatred, I shall rise up
& slew them"

 Rom9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (KJV)
==
"those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven" 
Stars are suns.
==
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in
itself is a good thing, though it might be free from dogma. I believe,
however, that the religious feeling, as feeling, is wrong, and the civilized
man will have nothing to do with it. . . . [When the] shadow of religion
disappeared forever . . . I felt that I was free from a disease."
-- Samuel Porter Putnam, My Religious Experience, 1891 
==
Re 3:1  And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith
he that hath the seven Spirits of God 
==
Psalm 18:9  King James Bible
He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
==
"How to Get Rich as a Televangelist or Faith Healer" Author Bill Wilson 
==
Texas: Bible Classes Approved
The states Board of Education gave final approval to establishing Bible
classes in public high schools, rejecting calls to draw specific teaching
guidelines and warnings that such approval could lead to constitutional
problems in the classroom. The Legislature passed a measure in 2007 allowing
Bible courses to be offered as an elective. State officials are still waiting
for an attorney generals ruling on whether the classes must be offered to
students or left to school districts to decide. Critics say the rule does not
provide specific enough guidelines to help teachers and school districts know
how to do that and avoid a First Amendment clash over freedom of religion.
Mark Chancey, associate professor in religious studies at Southern Methodist
University, has studied Bible classes already offered in about 25 districts.
His study found most of the courses were explicitly devotional with almost
exclusively Christian, usually Protestant, perspectives. It also found that
most were taught by teachers who were not familiar with the issue of
separation of church and state.
==
International radiocarbon dating experts confirm the Turin Shroud is a
medieval fake
The Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, in collaboration with an
international research team, has carried out further tests to examine
the evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, reputedly
Christ's burial cloth. Professor Christopher Ramsey, director of the
Unit that showed the cloth to be a medieval fake in 1989, was part
of a team looking at a new hypothesis that could put the date much
earlier.
Dr John Jackson, of the Turin Shroud Center of Colorado in the United
States, put the new hypothesis forward. Dr Jackson suggests that the
shroud might over time have been contaminated with carbon monoxide,
which is naturally enriched in radiocarbon. What is significant in
this particular hypothesis is that only a 2 per cent carbon
contamination from carbon monoxide is needed to move the medieval
radiocarbon date of the Shroud to the first century. However, initial
tests show that in normal conditions there is no contamination at the
level needed to alter radiocarbon dates at all. The researchers
conclude the original radiocarbon date of 14th century is correct,
based on current evidence, but they have yet to test whether there is
anything in the specific storage conditions of the shroud which might
affect this conclusion.
Dr Jackson was the leader of a 30-person scientific team from the
United States that conducted a five-day scientific study of the Shroud
in 1978.
==
(gamla) can mean "camel" but it's also a homophone for 
"thick shipbinding rope."
==
dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to
everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel is fiction
==
No Catholic catechism class or message from Catholic pulpits ever contains
reference to the hundreds of thousands of Protestants that were brutally
hunted down and murdered by papal armies. Albigensis, Waldensis and others
were slaughtered until nearly thousands of them had been martyred. In one
night papal armies pulled thousands of French Huguenots out of their homes and
killed them.
==
Christians' faith does help them in times of need... it comforts them, makes
them feel special and gives them all the answers of the universe. They believe
this because it makes them feel better about living and dying.
==
At the end of Vatican I, Catholic popes are proclaimed infallible by chapter
four of the papal bull Pastor Aeternus. His declarations on matters of faith
are protected from error by the Holy Spirit.
==
Consider the supernatural Roman Catholic doctrine that a thin paper wafer is
actually
the body of Christ--to understand that all supernatural beliefs are irrational
and antirational beliefs. Had Quinn gone to Catholic school, she would have
anticipated trouble from the devout supernaturalists. In the 1950s, the nuns
used to tie bows around the water fountains on days when the students were
scheduled to receive communion
because, at that time, the church considered it a violation of supernatural
protocol to drink so much as a drop of water after midnight before taking
communion the next morning. The bows, of course, were a way of reminding us
not to profane the body of Christ with water--whether flouridated or
unflouridated. (This rule has since been rescinded.)
==
Many religious leaders, like John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist
Church, firmly believed in evil ghosts and witches.
===
"Beginning of Religion" by Ina Wunn 2000
==
Carl Baugh teaches about curing arthritis by standing on electric eels.
==
The liberal theists can't help because they're part of the problem roasting
overthe same fire of credulity as the extremists. It would be like
trying to stamp out belief with more belief,
==
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Church_controversy

http://www.catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp
==
deu 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married
and rapes her and they are discovered,
deu 22:29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must
marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long
as he lives.
==
IX/5: Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye
find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them
each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor- due,
then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
This verse tells us that muslims are free to convert non-muslims by force and
brutality. If unsuccessful in doing so, they are free to kill.
==
http://www.rationalistinternational.net/
==
I think that a lot of people never grow up emotionally and therefore
they cannot live apart from their parents without inventing a parent
inside their heads...and this christian god concept really works for
people who want a strong authoritarian father...that is why those who
prefer the 'conservative' religious beliefs are always authoritarian
as well
==
Hebrew Date Converter. Sun, 13 July 2008 = 10th of Tamuz, 5768 ..
==
Chapters were first added to the bible in A.D. 1227 (and verses in A.D. 1551)
==
Michael D. Goulder, a leading New Testament scholar, resigned the priesthood
and became an atheist, saying that he couldn't worship an unemployed God.
==
Romans 1:20, St. Paul says: "Ever since the creation of the world his
invisible nature, namely his eternal power and deity, have been clearly
perceived in the things that have been made."

What is clear?
==
God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist
(Hardcover) by Victor J. Stenger (Author) 

"Atheist Universe" by David Mills
==
According to Luke 10:19 (KJV), Jesus also bestowed power to harmlessly 
"tread on serpents and scorpions."
===
Pastor among suspects in illegal snake bust
FRANKFORT, Ky. - The pastor of a Kentucky church that handles snakes in
religious rites was among 10 people arrested by wildlife officers in a
crackdown on the venomous snake trade.
More than 100 snakes, many of them deadly, were confiscated in the undercover
sting after Thursday's arrests, said Col. Bob Milligan, director of law
enforcement for Kentucky Fish and Wildlife.
Most were taken from the Middlesboro home of Gregory James Coots, including 42
copperheads, 11 timber rattlesnakes, three cottonmouth water moccasins, a
western diamondback rattlesnake, two cobras and a puff adder.
Handling snakes is practiced in a handful of fundamentalist churches across
Appalachia, based on the interpretation of Bible verses saying true believers
can take up serpents without being harmed. The practice is illegal in most
states, including Kentucky.
Coots, 36, is pastor of the Full Gospel Tabernacle in Jesus Name in
Middlesboro, where a Tennessee woman died after being bitten by a rattlesnake
during a service in 1995. Her husband died three years later when he was
bitten by a snake in northeastern Alabama.
Coots was charged Thursday with buying, selling and possessing illegal
reptiles. He had no listed telephone number and couldn't be reached for
comment. There was no phone listing for the church.
==
Morality is that instinctive sense of right and wrong that tells some people
how everyone else should behave.
==
Snake Handler
His name was George Went Hensley. He started the "Church of God with Signs
Following" in Tennesee, Kentucky, North Carolina and Virginia among the
"intellectually challenged." His foundation was the "They shall take up
serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they
shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." from Mark 16:18.
Venomous snakes rarely inject lethal amounts of venom in defensive
bites...around 10-15% of the time. Hensley had been bitten many times but
the odds fell against him in July, 1955. This practice wasmade illegal but
the nut cases still do it, including handing rattlesnakes to their children
as tests of faith. Deaths still occur.
==
Sam Harris: On the subject of religious belief, we relax standards of
reasonableness and evidence that we rely on in every other area of our lives.
We relax so totally that people believe the most ludicrous propositions, and
are willing to organize their lives around them. Propositions like "Jesus is
going to come back in the next fifty years and rectify every problem that
human beings create"
One of the things that is overlooked by many Christians is that there is a
wrathful Jesus in the New Testament. Jesus comes out and condemns whole
towns to fates worse than Sodom and Gomorrah for not liking his preaching. 
==
Job 29:18 Then I said: "In my own nest I shall grow old; I shall multiply
years like the phoenix. (New American Bible)
==
And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may
see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold,
the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
(2 Kings 6 17)
==
The concept of a deity is so fluid that it can easily be applied to any
situation whatsoever. That's why it fails as a scientific concept.
==
Intentionally abusing the Eucharist is classified as a mortal sin in 
the Catholic church, the most severe possible.
==
*TABLE I : CANONICAL AND NAZI ANTI-JEWISH MEASURES*

*CANONICAL LAW*

*NAZI MEASURE*

Prohibition of intermarriage and of sexual intercourse between
Christians and Jews. Synod of Elvira. 306

Law for the Protection or German Blood and Honor. September 15, 1935

Jews and Christians not permitted to eat together. Synod of Elvira. 306

Jews barred from dining cars (Transport Minister to Interior Minister,
December 30.1939)

Jews not allowed to hold public Office. Synod of Clermont, 535
 
Law for the Reestablishment of the Professional Civil Service. April 7, 1933

Jews not allowed to employ Christian servants or possess Christian
slaves, 3d Synod of Orleans, 538



Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honor. September 15, 1935

Jews not permitted to show themselves in the streets during Passion
Week. 3 (1 Synod of OrlEans, 538.

Decree authorizing local authorities to bar Jews from the streets on
certain days (i.e. Nazi holidays), December 3, 1938

Burning of the Talmud and other books, 12th Synod of Toledo. 681

Book burnings in Nazi Germany

Christians not permitted to patronize Jewish doctors, Trullan Synod. 692

Decree of July 25,1938

Christians not permitted to live in Jewish homes, Synod of Narhonne, 050

Directive by Goring providing for concentration of Jews in houses,
December 28, 1938 (Bormann to Rosenberg, January 17, 1939)

Jews obliged to pay taxes for support of the Church to the same extent
as Christians. Synod of Gerona, 1078



The "Sozialausgleichsab gabe" which provided that Jews pay a special
income tax in lieu of donations for Party purposes imposed on Nazis,
December 24, 1940

Jews not permitted to be plaintiffs, or witnesses against Christians in
the Courts, 3d Lateran Council, 1179, Canon 26



Proposal by the Party Chancellery that Jews not be permitted to
institute civil suits, September 91942 (Bormann to Justice Ministry,
September 9,1942),

Jews not permitted to withhold inheritance from descendants who had
accepted Christianity, 3d Lateran Council, 1179, Canon 26



Decree empowering the Justice Ministry to void wills offending the
"sound judgment of the people," July 31, 1938.

The marking of Jewish clothes with a badge, 4th Lateran Council, 1215.
Canon 68 (Copied from the legislation by Caliph Omar II [636-644], who
had decreed that Christians wear blue belts and Jews, yellow belts)



Decree of September 1, 1941

Construction of new synagogues prohibited, Council of Oxford, 1222



Destruction of synagogues in entire Reich. November 10, l938 (Heydrich
to Goring. November 11, 1938)

Christians not permitted to attend Jewish ceremonies, Synod of Vienna. 1267

Friendly relations with Jews prohibited. October 24, 1941 (Gestapo
directive)

Jews not permitted to dispute with simple Christian people about the
tenets of the Catholic religion. Synod of Vienna. 1267

Compulsory ghettos. Synod of Breslau, 1267

Order by Heydrich, September 21, 1939

Christians not permitted to sell or rent real estate to Jews. Synod of
Ofen, 1279

Decree providing for compulsory sale of Jewish real estate. December 3, 1938

Adoption by a Christian of the Jewish religion or return by a baptized
Jew to the Jewish religion defined as a heresy. Synod of Mainz, 1310

Adoption of the Jewish religion by a Christian places him in jeopardy of
being treated as a Jew (Decision by Oberlandesgericht Konigsberg. 4th
Zivilsenat. June 26.1942)

Jews not permitted to act as agents in the conclusion of contracts,
especially marriage contracts between Christians. Council of Basel,
1434. Sessio XIX

Decree of July 6.1938. providing for liquidation of Jewish real estate
agencies. brokerage agencies, and marriage agencies catering to non-Jews

Jews not permitted to obtain academic degrees. Council of Basel, 1434,
Sessio XIX

Law against Overcrowding of German Schools anti Universities. April 25,
1933.

(from Hilberg, Raul. _The Destruction of European Jews_. 1985)
http://www.sonoma. edu/users/ g/goodman/ LOWE.htm# table
==
The Roman Catholic crusader Hitler was a at core a Catholic
superstition- ist and motivated by Roman Catholic anti-Semitism and
frenzied Catholic mythologies about 'Jewish Bolshevism' and the evils of
liberalism and modernism and motivated by megalomaniacal urges that is,
millennial expectations of a universal Catholic Reich.

Hitler was born and baptised Catholic; indoctrinated by monks (the
primarily source of his racialist ideology), and Catholic priests, and
raised a pious, habitual Catholic.

Hitler's 'racism' was based on the view that races were created distinct
by God. Obsessed by a belief in the evils of racial dilution as an evil
against god, Hitler prophesied that if no one did anything about the
purification of the races, the image of God would be corrupted:-

"But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to
its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I
think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane
the Almighty." --Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Hitler took this religiously- based race beliefs seriously; he held
justification for a superior race on the foundation of his belief that
man should fit god's image:-

"A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level
of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of
an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and
not monstrosities halfway between man and ape." --Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf.

From cradle to grave, Hitler remained a fervent servant to Catholic
superstition. "This human world of ours would be inconceivable without
the practical existence of a religious belief." --Adolf Hitler, Mein
Kampf, pp.152

"The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany
means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the
Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and
unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is
hostile to religion is a lie. " --Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to
the Nazi Party

Even as late as 1941, Hitler regarded himself as a devout Catholic right
until he seemed to sense the approaching end, "I am now as before a
Catholic and will always remain so," he told Gerhard Engel, one of his
generals. --John Toland, Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography, New
York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p.507 ISBN 0-385-42053- 6. ]

*** For more detailed info, go to: "Nazi photos" ***

http://www.nobelief s.com/nazis. htm
==
The Roman Catholic Church considered the teachings of John Hus heretical;
consequently Hus was excommunicated in 1411, condemned by the Council of
Constance, and burned at the stake in 1415.
==
The Bible says so; how do you know the Bible is right? Because its the
word of God; how do you know its the word of God? The Bible says so...)
==
It was Luther, like Hitler who said "drive them
like mad dogs from the fatherland."  It was the Vatican, hardly a
cheering section for Darwin, who signed concordats, most priests,
bishops, Reichbishops, ReichArchbishops & ReichCardinals gave Hitler
the Seig Heil straight arm salute, nuns were eager to get autographs.
==
Eccl. 9:5,10: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the 
dead, they are conscious of nothing at all 

In the NT, the dead hold conversations, like the rich man in hell.

luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth
Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
==
Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

JERUSALEM  A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars
believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a
quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may
speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.
If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a
developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since
it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but
part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.
The tablet, probably found near the Dead Sea in Jordan according to some
scholars who have studied it, is a rare example of a stone with ink writings
from that era  in essence, a Dead Sea Scroll on stone.
It is written, not engraved, across two neat columns, similar to columns in a
Torah. But the stone is broken, and some of the text is faded, meaning that
much of what it says is open to debate.
Still, its authenticity has so far faced no challenge, so its role in helping
to understand the roots of Christianity in the devastating political crisis
faced by the Jews of the time seems likely to increase.
Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmudic culture at the University of
California at Berkeley, said that the stone was part of a growing body of
evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood through a close
reading of the Jewish history of his day.
Some Christians will find it shocking  a challenge to the uniqueness of their
theology  while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional
part of Judaism, Mr. Boyarin said.
Given the highly charged atmosphere surrounding all Jesus-era artifacts and
writings, both in the general public and in the fractured and fiercely
competitive scholarly community, as well as the concern over forgery and
charlatanism, it will probably be some time before the tablets contribution is
fully assessed. It has been around 60 years since the Dead Sea Scrolls were
uncovered, and they continue to generate enormous controversy regarding their
authors and meaning.
The scrolls, documents found in the Qumran caves of the West Bank, contain
some of the only known surviving copies of biblical writings from before the
first century A.D. In addition to quoting from key books of the Bible, the
scrolls describe a variety of practices and beliefs of a Jewish sect at the
time of Jesus.
How representative the descriptions are and what they tell us about the era
are still strongly debated. For example, a question that arises is whether the
authors of the scrolls were members of a monastic sect or in fact mainstream. A
conference marking 60 years since the discovery of the scrolls will begin on
Sunday at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, where the stone, and the debate over
whether it speaks of a resurrected messiah, as one iconoclastic scholar
believes, also will be discussed.
Oddly, the stone is not really a new discovery. It was found about a decade
ago and bought from a Jordanian antiquities dealer by an Israeli-Swiss
collector who kept it in his Zurich home. When an Israeli scholar examined it
closely a few years ago and wrote a paper on it last year, interest began to
rise. There is now a spate of scholarly articles on the stone, with several
due to be published in the coming months.
I couldnt make much out of it when I got it, said David Jeselsohn, the owner,
who is himself an expert in antiquities. I didnt realize how significant it
was until I showed it to Ada Yardeni, who specializes in Hebrew writing, a few
years ago. She was overwhelmed. You have got a Dead Sea Scroll on stone, she
told me.
Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel,
draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and
Haggai.
Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert
on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 B.C. The
two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in
Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology
of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language,
the text dated from the late first century B.C.
A chemical examination by Yuval Goren, a professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv
University who specializes in the verification of ancient artifacts, has been
submitted to a peer-review journal. He declined to give details of his
analysis until publication, but he said that he knew of no reason to doubt the
stones authenticity.
It was in Cathedra that Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of Bible
studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, first heard of the stone, which Ms.
Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur dubbed Gabriels Revelation, also the title of their
article. Mr. Knohl posited in a book published in 2000 the idea of a suffering
messiah before Jesus, using a variety of rabbinic and early apocalyptic
literature as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls. But his theory did not shake the
world of Christology as he had hoped, partly because he had no textual
evidence from before Jesus.
When he read Gabriels Revelation, he said, he believed he saw what he needed
to solidify his thesis, and he has published his argument in the latest issue
of The Journal of Religion.
Mr. Knohl is part of a larger scholarly movement that focuses on the political
atmosphere in Jesus day as an important explanation of that eras messianic
spirit. As he notes, after the death of Herod, Jewish rebels sought to throw
off the yoke of the Rome-supported monarchy, so the rise of a major Jewish
independence fighter could take on messianic overtones.
In Mr. Knohls interpretation, the specific messianic figure embodied on the
stone could be a man named Simon who was slain by a commander in the Herodian
army, according to the first-century historian Josephus. The writers of the
stones passages were probably Simons followers, Mr. Knohl contends.
The slaying of Simon, or any case of the suffering messiah, is seen as a
necessary step toward national salvation, he says, pointing to lines 19
through 21 of the tablet  In three days you will know that evil will be
defeated by justice  and other lines that speak of blood and slaughter as
pathways to justice.
To make his case about the importance of the stone, Mr. Knohl focuses
especially on line 80, which begins clearly with the words Lshloshet yamin,
meaning in three days. The next word of the line was deemed partially
illegible by Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur, but Mr. Knohl, who is an expert on
the language of the Bible and Talmud, says the word is hayeh, or live in the
imperative. It has an unusual spelling, but it is one in keeping with the era.
Two more hard-to-read words come later, and Mr. Knohl said he believed that he
had deciphered them as well, so that the line reads, In three days you shall
live, I, Gabriel, command you.
To whom is the archangel speaking? The next line says Sar hasarin, or prince
of princes. Since the Book of Daniel, one of the primary sources for the
Gabriel text, speaks of Gabriel and of a prince of princes, Mr. Knohl contends
that the stones writings are about the death of a leader of the Jews who will
be resurrected in three days.
He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from the
traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful descendant of
King David.
This should shake our basic view of Christianity, he said as he sat in his
office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he is a senior
fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor of Biblical Studies
at Hebrew University. Resurrection after three days becomes a motif developed
before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly all scholarship. What happens in
the New Testament was adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier
messiah story.
Ms. Yardeni said she was impressed with the reading and considered it indeed
likely that the key illegible word was hayeh, or live. Whether that means
Simon is the messiah under discussion, she is less sure.
Moshe Bar-Asher, president of the Israeli Academy of Hebrew Language and
emeritus professor of Hebrew and Aramaic at the Hebrew University, said he
spent a long time studying the text and considered it authentic, dating from
no later than the first century B.C. His 25-page paper on the stone will be
published in the coming months.
Regarding Mr. Knohls thesis, Mr. Bar-Asher is also respectful but cautious.
There is one problem, he said. In crucial places of the text there is lack of
text. I understand Knohls tendency to find there keys to the pre-Christian
period, but in two to three crucial lines of text there are a lot of missing
words.
Moshe Idel, a professor of Jewish thought at Hebrew University, said that
given the way every tiny fragment from that era yielded scores of articles and
books, Gabriels Revelation and Mr. Knohls analysis deserved serious attention.
Here we have a real stone with a real text, he said. This is truly significant.
Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the
stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose
after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes
that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New
Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later
followers because there was no such idea present in his day.
But there was, he said, and Gabriels Revelation shows it.
His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his
blood will be the sign for redemption to come, Mr. Knohl said. This is the
sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This
gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not
for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel.


Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection
JERUSALEM  A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars
believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a
quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may
speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a
developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since
it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but
part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

The tablet, probably found near the Dead Sea in Jordan according to some
scholars who have studied it, is a rare example of a stone with ink writings
from that era  in essence, a Dead Sea Scroll on stone.

It is written, not engraved, across two neat columns, similar to columns in a
Torah. But the stone is broken, and some of the text is faded, meaning that
much of what it says is open to debate.

Still, its authenticity has so far faced no challenge, so its role in helping
to understand the roots of Christianity in the devastating political crisis
faced by the Jews of the time seems likely to increase.

Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmudic culture at the University of
California at Berkeley, said that the stone was part of a growing body of
evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood through a close
reading of the Jewish history of his day.

Some Christians will find it shocking  a challenge to the uniqueness of their
theology  while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional
part of Judaism, Mr. Boyarin said.

Given the highly charged atmosphere surrounding all Jesus-era artifacts and
writings, both in the general public and in the fractured and fiercely
competitive scholarly community, as well as the concern over forgery and
charlatanism, it will probably be some time before the tablets contribution is
fully assessed. It has been around 60 years since the Dead Sea Scrolls were
uncovered, and they continue to generate enormous controversy regarding their
authors and meaning.

The scrolls, documents found in the Qumran caves of the West Bank, contain
some of the only known surviving copies of biblical writings from before the
first century A.D. In addition to quoting from key books of the Bible, the
scrolls describe a variety of practices and beliefs of a Jewish sect at the
time of Jesus.

How representative the descriptions are and what they tell us about the era
are still strongly debated. For example, a question that arises is whether the
authors of the scrolls were members of a monastic sect or in fact mainstream. A
conference marking 60 years since the discovery of the scrolls will begin on
Sunday at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, where the stone, and the debate over
whether it speaks of a resurrected messiah, as one iconoclastic scholar
believes, also will be discussed.

Oddly, the stone is not really a new discovery. It was found about a decade
ago and bought from a Jordanian antiquities dealer by an Israeli-Swiss
collector who kept it in his Zurich home. When an Israeli scholar examined it
closely a few years ago and wrote a paper on it last year, interest began to
rise. There is now a spate of scholarly articles on the stone, with several
due to be published in the coming months.

I couldnt make much out of it when I got it, said David Jeselsohn, the owner,
who is himself an expert in antiquities. I didnt realize how significant it
was until I showed it to Ada Yardeni, who specializes in Hebrew writing, a few
years ago. She was overwhelmed. You have got a Dead Sea Scroll on stone, she
told me.

Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel,
draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and
Haggai.

Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert
on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 B.C. The
two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in
Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology
of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language,
the text dated from the late first century B.C.

A chemical examination by Yuval Goren, a professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv
University who specializes in the verification of ancient artifacts, has been
submitted to a peer-review journal. He declined to give details of his
analysis until publication, but he said that he knew of no reason to doubt the
stones authenticity.

It was in Cathedra that Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of Bible
studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, first heard of the stone, which Ms.
Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur dubbed Gabriels Revelation, also the title of their
article. Mr. Knohl posited in a book published in 2000 the idea of a suffering
messiah before Jesus, using a variety of rabbinic and early apocalyptic
literature as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls. But his theory did not shake the
world of Christology as he had hoped, partly because he had no textual
evidence from before Jesus.

When he read Gabriels Revelation, he said, he believed he saw what he needed
to solidify his thesis, and he has published his argument in the latest issue
of The Journal of Religion.

Mr. Knohl is part of a larger scholarly movement that focuses on the political
atmosphere in Jesus day as an important explanation of that eras messianic
spirit. As he notes, after the death of Herod, Jewish rebels sought to throw
off the yoke of the Rome-supported monarchy, so the rise of a major Jewish
independence fighter could take on messianic overtones.

In Mr. Knohls interpretation, the specific messianic figure embodied on the
stone could be a man named Simon who was slain by a commander in the Herodian
army, according to the first-century historian Josephus. The writers of the
stones passages were probably Simons followers, Mr. Knohl contends.

The slaying of Simon, or any case of the suffering messiah, is seen as a
necessary step toward national salvation, he says, pointing to lines 19
through 21 of the tablet  In three days you will know that evil will be
defeated by justice  and other lines that speak of blood and slaughter as
pathways to justice.

To make his case about the importance of the stone, Mr. Knohl focuses
especially on line 80, which begins clearly with the words Lshloshet yamin,
meaning in three days. The next word of the line was deemed partially
illegible by Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur, but Mr. Knohl, who is an expert on
the language of the Bible and Talmud, says the word is hayeh, or live in the
imperative. It has an unusual spelling, but it is one in keeping with the era.

Two more hard-to-read words come later, and Mr. Knohl said he believed that he
had deciphered them as well, so that the line reads, In three days you shall
live, I, Gabriel, command you.

To whom is the archangel speaking? The next line says Sar hasarin, or prince
of princes. Since the Book of Daniel, one of the primary sources for the
Gabriel text, speaks of Gabriel and of a prince of princes, Mr. Knohl contends
that the stones writings are about the death of a leader of the Jews who will
be resurrected in three days.

He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from the
traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful descendant of
King David.

This should shake our basic view of Christianity, he said as he sat in his
office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he is a senior
fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor of Biblical Studies
at Hebrew University. Resurrection after three days becomes a motif developed
before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly all scholarship. What happens in
the New Testament was adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier
messiah story.

Ms. Yardeni said she was impressed with the reading and considered it indeed
likely that the key illegible word was hayeh, or live. Whether that means
Simon is the messiah under discussion, she is less sure.

Moshe Bar-Asher, president of the Israeli Academy of Hebrew Language and
emeritus professor of Hebrew and Aramaic at the Hebrew University, said he
spent a long time studying the text and considered it authentic, dating from
no later than the first century B.C. His 25-page paper on the stone will be
published in the coming months.

Regarding Mr. Knohls thesis, Mr. Bar-Asher is also respectful but cautious.
There is one problem, he said. In crucial places of the text there is lack of
text. I understand Knohls tendency to find there keys to the pre-Christian
period, but in two to three crucial lines of text there are a lot of missing
words.

Moshe Idel, a professor of Jewish thought at Hebrew University, said that
given the way every tiny fragment from that era yielded scores of articles and
books, Gabriels Revelation and Mr. Knohls analysis deserved serious attention.
Here we have a real stone with a real text, he said. This is truly significant.

Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the
stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose
after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes
that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New
Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later
followers because there was no such idea present in his day.

But there was, he said, and Gabriels Revelation shows it.

His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his
blood will be the sign for redemption to come, Mr. Knohl said. This is the
sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This
gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not
for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel.



==
When Spain invaded the Americas, it would have a priest read an ultamatum to
any tribe of indigenous people that encountered. In that ultamatum, they were
told, basically, to accept Catholicism or die. Since it was read in Spanish,
the Indians couldn't understand it anyway, and then the Conquistadors would
move in and start killing people.
==
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for
the sins of the whole world. -- 1 John 2:2
The doctrine of propitiation isnt something thats talked about too much in
modern Christian circles. Hell, heaven, sin, repentance, prayer, Jim Dobson
these are all topics that get covered constantly, but propitiation? Not in any
church I attended. I think I know the reason. The doctrine is bizarre,
inconsistent and incoherent to even the most religiously brainwashed.
The definition of propitiation is An atoning sacrifice to gain or regain the
favor or goodwill of God. To propitiate is to appease or pacify God.
As in the verse quoted above, Jesus purported death on a cross was to placate
the wrath of a god who supposedly has a considerable grudge against humanity.
Humanity just didnt work out as He intended.
So, propitiation is a blood-soaked offering lifted up to appease the wrath of
blood-thirsty deity. When this deity sees hemoglobin, he feels better about
things and can finally overlook offenses that normally cause his eyes to blaze
with righteous indignation. When this deity sees hemoglobin, he feels better
about thingsBut modern ears and minds arent accustomed to thinking of God in
the throws of blood-lust. Why in the world would killing something and looking
at its plasma satisfy anyones  including a deitys  righteous indignation? Has
God got a thing for vampires? To tone things down a bit for 21st Century
Christians, propitiation has been repackaged for the modern ear. Christians
are now told that all humanity has a sin debt to God: We are in debt to God
for our sin and the debt must be paid. The death of Gods only son on the cross
paid that debt, so it is said.
==
 cockatrice n : monster hatched by a reptile from a cock's egg; 
able to kill with a glance, mentioned in the KJV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockatrice
==
While reading the King James bible as a young teenager, she decided: "It
sounded cruel. A God who would not forgive the world until his son had been
tortured to death--that did not strike me as the kind of father 
I would want to relate to."
==
Tim 1:10 is interestingly against slave-traders but not against slave-owners.
==
Chisto-Facism is a closed system that demands total obedience and
indoctrination into a culture of hate that demonizes all who do not believe.
==
According to recent statistics, there exists approximately 4,684 different
denominations, groups or sects of Christianity in America.
Each is the ONE TRUE CHURCH.
==
The two different birthdates of Jesus: 6 BC and 6 AD, as indicated by 
Mathew 2:1 and Luke 2:2
==
Matthew 27:52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who
had fallen asleep were raised, (Revised Standard Version)
Matthew 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went
into the holy city and appeared to many. (Revised Standard Version)
Matthew 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went
into the holy city and appeared to many. (Revised Standard Version)

Did these people ever die again? What if their wife had remarried?
Could they reclaim their estate goods?
==
I'm waiting for Lee Strobel's next book,
 "The Case for Buying Every Book I Write."
==
Theistic beliefs are not based on any preponderance of evidence. In
fact, theism ignores the preponderance of evidence that men create
gods and they do it all the time. Theistic hopes based on whim and
hearsay are absurd and non-falsifiable. Actions taken based on hopes
and beliefs of this sort produce a dysfunctional and unjustified faith.
==
It is remarkable that the Dalai Lama says that where science is found to
contradict Buddhist belief then science must stand and belief must be
modified. It's certainly a rare opinion for the leader of a major faith.
==
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.   
Psalm 51 5     What sin?
==
Somebody supposedly asked Augustine of Hippo once, "what was God doing before
he made the universe?  and his answer was... "he was busy making hell to put
people in who asked questions that were none of their damned business"
==
It is Enki who destroyed the ziggurat of EANNA, resulting in man losing One
world language and gaining many, just like the tower of Babel, and it was Enki
who warned Zi-su-adra to built an ark to ride out the flood.
==
http://firstchurchofatheism.com/
==
"American Theocracy: The Peril and Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, 
and Borrowed Money in the 21stCentury"  Kevin Phillips; Hardcover; 
$5.99    A fabulous book

"The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for 
God"  Carl Sagan; Paperback; $5.99    Sagan is a fabulous writer.

"American Fascists"   Chris Hedges    $5.99     A fabulous book.

"Is Christianity Good for the World?"   Christopher Hitchens; Hardcover; $8.82

"Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading 
Atheists"    Dan Barker; Paperback; $10.17    Comes highly recommended

"Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" Daniel C. Dennett; 
Paperback; $10.88
==
ABC News reported on a shocking story about the Bush
Administration's so-called "faith-based" initiative: the Department of Justice
awarded a $1.2 million grant to be shared by an evangelical youth charity
called Victory Outreach and a consulting firm run by a former White House
staffer. Fully one-third of the grant would go to line the coffers of the
consulting firm, instead of funding services for children
This is not the first time we have seen political manipulation from the Office
of Faith-Based Initiatives. In 2006, former White House staffer David Kuo wrote
a tell-all book, documenting how federal funds were being funneled to
fly-by-night evangelical Christian charities without any congressional
approval or oversight.
Victory Outreach is a prime example of the type of organization the Office of
Faith-Based Initiatives likes to fund. It describes itself as a
"church-oriented Christian ministry called to the task of evangelizing and
disciplining the hurting people of the world, with the message of hope and
plan of Jesus Christ." In other words, they want to help people as long as
those people adhere to their particular brand of Christianity.
==
Smallpox
Imagine an Egyptologist's surprise when the mummified pharaoh he found and
unwrapped in 1898 bore the familiar scars of smallpox, a disease whose first
successful vaccination had been discovered only 100 years earlier.
Today it's a medical success story, but before it was eradicated, the smallpox
virus spent more than 3,000 years decimating communities across the globe.
The extremely infectious disease was class-blind, killing rich and poor alike,
and almost single-handedly wiped out the New World empires encountered by
European explorers.
Smallpox was finally controlled by the development of the world's first
vaccine in the late 1700s, but fears linger that a few cells remaining in
Petri dishes could be used as biological weaponry.
Empires fall
It is believed that smallpox first incubated 10,000 years ago in northern
Africa, spreading slowly to the rest of the ancient world. Repeat epidemics of
the highly contagious virus which caused a grotesque rash, fever and often
blindness began popping up a few millennia later.
Aside from speckling the face of Ramses V, the pharaoh who succumbed to
smallpox in 1156 B.C., the virus appears in contemporary texts from India and
China. Approximately 30 percent of those infected with smallpox died, and the
statistics were even worse for children. According to some ancient customs,
newborn babies were often left unnamed until they, inevitably, contracted the
disease and proved they could survive, historians say.
Smallpox continued to spread across Asia in the Middle Ages and reached Europe
by A.D. 700, killing indiscriminately. Waves of epidemics wiped out large rural
populations, but didn't spare royalty either: Queen Mary II of England, Holy
Roman Emperor Joseph I, French King Louis XV and Tsar Peter II of Russia all
died of the disease, the latter on the eve of his wedding.
Perhaps the most defenseless victims of smallpox were the Aztec and Inca
Indians of the New World who, with no immunity to European diseases, were
almost completely wiped out by the virus before Spanish conquistadors finished
them off with weapons in the 16th and 17th centuries.
Dairymaids help create vaccines
By the beginning of the 18th century, 400,000 Europeans annually and one out
of every seven Russian children were dying of smallpox, a disease that had now
been killing unhindered for at least 2,800 years. The only thing that tied its
devastating case histories together was the observation that those who were
lucky enough to survive smallpox never contracted it again.
The concept of inoculation exposing an individual to small amounts of a
disease in order to create immunity was known in Africa, India and China by
the 17th century and gained popularity in Europe in the early 1700s. Smallpox
was its first target there, and the risky procedure was fairly successful,
killing just a small fraction of those injected.
In 1796 a new discovery was made by Edward Jenner, a British doctor. Noting
that dairymaids rarely contracted smallpox after bouts of cowpox, a similar
but far less dangerous virus, Jenner injected a young boy with matter from a
cowpox lesion and later inoculated him with smallpox. The boy did not get
sick Jenner had performed the first "vaccination," a word derived from the
Latin vacca, meaning cow. Further testing proved conclusively that the cowpox
virus was able to build immunity against smallpox.
Using his theory, similar vaccines were later created for diseases such as
yellow fever, mumps, rubella and tetanus.
Biological weapon concern
Smallpox epidemics continued through the 20th century until vaccination
programs were regulated and implemented around the world.
In 1980, the World Health Organization declared smallpox completely
eradicated, but samples of the virus remain in two laboratories in the United
States and Russia, prompting fears of biological warfare should the virus land
in the wrong hands.
Revelations in 1992 by a Soviet defector that the USSR was developing a
smallpox weapons program, plus the anthrax scare in 2001, only heightened
those fears.
There is "credible concern" that the virus may have been obtained by
terrorists, according the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
==
The black death
Seven thousand people died per day in Cairo. Three-quarters of Florence's
residents were buried in makeshift graves in just one macabre year. One third
of China evaporated before the rest of the world knew what was coming.
By the time the tornado-like destruction of the 14th-century bubonic plague
finally dissipated, nearly half the people in each of the regions it touched
had succumbed to a gruesome, painful death.
The Black Death  as it is commonly called  especially ravaged Europe, which
was halfway through a century already marked by war, famine and scandal in the
church, which had moved its headquarters from Rome to Avignon, France, to
escape infighting among the cardinals.
In the end, some 75 million people succumbed, it is estimated. It took several
centuries for the world's population to recover from the devastation of the
plague, but some social changes, borne by watching corpses pile up in the
streets, were permanent.
Quick killer
The disease existed in two varieties, one contracted by insect bite and
another airborne. In both cases, victims rarely lasted more than three to four
days between initial infection and death, a period of intense fever and
vomiting during which their lymph nodes swelled uncontrollably and finally
burst.
The plague bacteria had lain dormant for hundreds of years before incubating
again in the 1320s in the Gobi Desert of Asia, from which it spread quickly in
all directions in the blood of fleas that traveled with rodent hosts.
Following very precisely the medieval trade routes from China, through Central
Asia and Turkey, the plague finally reached Italy in 1347 aboard a merchant
ship whose crew had all already died or been infected by the time it reached
port. Densely populated Europe, which had seen a recent growth in the
population of its cities, was a tinderbox for the disease.
The Black Death ravaged the continent for three years before it continued on
into Russia, killing one-third to one-half of the entire population in ghastly
fashion.
The plague killed indiscriminately  young and old, rich and poor  but
especially in the cities and among groups who had close contact with the sick.
Entire monasteries filled with friars were wiped out and Europe lost most of
its doctors. In the countryside, whole villages were abandoned. The disease
reached even the isolated outposts of Greenland and Iceland, leaving only wild
cattle roaming free without any farmers, according to chroniclers who visited
years later.
New landscape
Social effects of the plague were felt immediately after the worst outbreaks
petered out. Those who survived benefited from an extreme labor shortage, so
serfs once tied to the land now had a choice of whom to work for. Lords had to
make conditions better and more attractive or risk leaving their land untended,
leading to wage increases across the board.
The taste of better living conditions for the poor would not be forgotten. A
few decades later, when lords tried to revert back to the old ways, there were
peasant revolts throughout Europe and the lower classes maintained their new
freedoms and better pay.
The Catholic Church and Jewish populations in Europe did not fare so well.
Distrust in God and the church, already in poor standing due to recent Papal
scandals, grew as people realized that religion could do nothing to stop the
spread of the disease and their family's suffering. So many priests died, too,
that church services in many areas simply ceased.
Jewish populations, meanwhile, were frequently targeted as scapegoats. In some
places, they were accused of poisoning the water because their mortality rates
were often significantly lower, something historians have since attributed to
better hygiene. This prejudice was nothing new in Europe at the time, but
intensified during the Black Death and led many Jews to flee east to Poland
and Russia, where they remained in large numbers until the 20th-century.
A study earlier this year found that despite its reputation for indiscriminate
destruction, the Black Death targeted the weak, taking a greater toll among
those whose immune systems were already compromised.
==
"Which passages of scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go
with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is OK and that eating shellfish is an
abomination? Or we could go with Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your
child if he strays from the faith?
==
When my friend and I talk with Christians we often ask them why the Bible
doesn't condemn slavery. A common response is that slavery was an acceptable
practice during that time period but is not anymore. This is baffling because
on the one hand they understand that as a society we have progressed in the
past 2,000 years but at the same time they still believe that the Bible is
God's inspired words and relevant for us today.
All that it would have taken was one more commandment to end the practice of
slavery or Jesus to say, "Don't hold slaves!"
==
Bill Keller, an evangelist based in Florida, runs "Liveprayer.com," an
Internet call-in program. Because he receives a government tax exemption, he
is prohibited by law from endorsing or opposing candidates for public office.
But during the Republican primary battle, Mr. Keller proclaimed to his
followers and the news media that "a vote for Mitt Romney is a vote for Satan."
==
http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Laws_and_other_rules_against_atheists_and_agnostics
==
Faith in a supernatural skydaddy is irrational. 
You know it is. It's not quaint, it's not cute. It's a dogma that is 
programmed into our brains from childhood. 
It warps our brains with ideas such as "man is sinful", "sex is 
bad", "women are unclean" ...and yet, it does something worse, it 
let's people believe they can be "forgiven" for any act, from god. 
it actively advises that nonbelievers are evil and "fools". 
==
Deuteronomy 22:21  Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her
father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she
die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her
father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
==
The snake-handling bit at the end of Mark is not part of the original text..
It first shows up in manuscripts of the 5th Century.
==
"Sergei Torop was a traffic cop in the small Russian town of Minusinsk until
1989, when he announced that he was the son of God. Now he commands a
following of thousands and rules over a large swath of the Siberian mountains.
==
 Acts 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven
and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;
==
They do not need medicine for their children 
because "God will heal" and if they die it was "God's will".
==
It is the "spirit of reason" that testifies to
the truth of science. Christians cannot understand or accept the witness of
the "spirit of reason" because they have already subjected themselves to a
lie. They are allowing another "spirit" to control their thought processes and
overrule reason.

William Lane Craig's book "Reasonable Faith" I was appalled to find early
in the book his caveat that "May I suggest that, fundamentally, the way we
know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating witness of God's
Holy Spirit?" (p31) He goes on to explain that "Therefore, the only role left
for argument and evidence to play is a subsidiary role". (p35)
Wow, how convenient is that? Whenever there is an argument that you can't
counter, you get to say you're still right because the holy spirit told you
so. This, to me, is just sophomoric and childish. People have
"self-authenticating" witness about a lot of things including many varied
religious beliefs. If that is your ultimate proof, it is very sad. 
==
Mut-em-ua, the virgin Queen of Egypt, supposedly gave birth to Pharaoh
Amenkept III through a god holding a cross to her mouth.
Ra, the Egyptian sun god, was said to be born of a virgin. So was Perseus,
Romulus, Mithras, Genghis Khan, Krishna, Horus, Melanippe, Auge and Antiope.
In the ancient world, great men were born of divine fathers and human mothers.
Alexander the Great and the Roman emperor Augustus were great men and
(therefore) said to have divine fathers.
==
A belief which leaves no place for doubt is not a belief; it is a
superstition.   José Bergamín

One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by
religion.
Arthur C. Clarke Quotes
==
If we go back to the beginning, we shall find that ignorance and fear created
the gods; that fancy, enthusiasm, or deceit adorned them; that weakness
worships them; that credulity preserves them and that custom, respect and
tyranny support them in order to make the blindness of men serve their own
interests. If the ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, the knowledge of
nature is calculated to destroy them.
==
Thomas Jefferson Quotes

Shake off all fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are
servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal
for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a
God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason
than that of blindfolded fear.

 We are afraid of the known and afraid of the unknown. That is our daily
life and in that there is no hope, and therefore every form of philosophy,
every form of theological concept, is merely an escape from the actual reality
of what is. All outward forms of change brought about by wars, revolutions,
reformations, laws and ideologies have failed completely to change the basic
nature of man and therefore of society.
==
George Carlin Quotes
Religion easily has the best bullshit story of all time. Think about it.
Religion has convinced people that theres an invisible manliving in the sky.
Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man
has a list of ten specific things he doesnt want you to do. And if you do any
of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and
smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and burn,
and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves
you and he needs money.
==
Hagee
Now 66 years old, the ambitious preacher divorced his first wife 30 years ago
when their children were ages 3 and 6, and less than six months later married
his second wife, who happened to be 12 years his junior. Despite this apparent
moral lapse, other evangelicals have long looked to him for guidance. The
Christian pollster George Barna recently reported that Hagee is ranked in the
top 10 spokesmen for Christianity among other Pentecostals.
==
"For a democracy to succeed, we need citizens who can provide reasons to
support their beliefs. We cannot reason together if all we have are groups of
individuals who adamantly insist they have all the answers because of some
supernatural revelation and who are unwilling to consider opposing viewpoints. 
==
In my journal I started recording ways being a xtian has hurt me personally.
If you are wondering about your own faith and considering it is better to
believe then not, here are some things for you to consider:
1. Dependency. I was constantly looking to god for guidance and direction, in
the big picture and day to day. I considered myself self-sufficient, but
realize now I was using god as a crutch. Gov. of Minnesota Jesse Ventura said
xtians use god as a crutch and I was outraged. Now I see often, (not always),
that is the case.
2. False expectations. I kept looking to god to do the miraculous in my life
and others. To give me guidance. It never seemed to happen. This was very
discouraging. That constant disappointment really brought me down and often
made me depressed. When my mom (who was a strong xtian) had a bone marrow
transplant to treat leukemia, she was on the road to recovery, suddenly she
got an infection and died. Well, I guess god wanted to call her home.
3. Wasted Time. This is a big one. When I consider how much of my life I have
literally wasted listening to lame sermons, dragging my family to yet another
service, worshiping an invisible god, and participating in outreach events of
the church, it is staggering. That of course includes the 5 years I prepared
to be a full-time minister.
4. Wasted Money. Need I say more? I believed in tithing. I believed in giving
above the tithe. I believed god would bless us for our faithfulness. There
were years where our giving was 20+ % of our income. Did god bless us? Not in
anyway that couldnt be easily explained away. Many times it was just the pity
of a congregation that knew we were living on peanuts (as a minister). Other
times it was just hard work on our part in being frugal and smart with our
money. Now I wish I could have all that money back, and see if I couldnt do a
better job of blessing me. Another note, the church squanders and wastes so
much of that money. Over 95% of money churches take in goes to THEMSELVES, not
to world missions or helping the poor or anything like that. I wish I could at
least take solace that some struggling people were helped by my giving, but
too little of it went that way.
5. Wasted friendships. Ive never really fit in that well in the Christian
world. Maybe Im a bit of a recluse, or maybe it is just that so many
Christians are not thinking people. They tend to be uninteresting and
unoriginal. They tend to be harsh and judgmental, and that doesnt make someone
enjoyable to be around. One example that comes to mind is when I used to enjoy
watching football and commented to another church member about it. He
self-righteously told me he doesnt watch any sports. Now I have no problem
with that, but his attitude was that he was superior because of his decision.
Will I do better away from Christianity? Ill let you know. I can tell you I am
MUCH more open to people now, striking up conversations all the time. I am not
as harsh and judgmental as I used to be, and dont feel a need to alienate
someone because of who or what they are. I think that will help.
6. Wasted opportunities. What could I have been if I had not gone down this
road? I have a decent mind. Some type of scientist? A teacher, helping to open
kids mind to the awe of this world? A doctor? Well never know, because I chose
pastor so I could help people and guide them to eternal life. What a puts I
was. How many fun and enjoyable and educational opportunities I missed because
they didnt fit my narrow constructs of life.
7. Mental Anguish. This one was big for me as well. If you dont think too much
about your faith, you may not be bothered by all the inconsistencies. And if
you dont think too much about the church, you may not be bothered that there
is little difference between the church and the world. For a body that is the
living testament of god on earth, this group of people behave overall like a
bunch of ill-behaved children. I could go on for hours about the anguish
caused me by well-meaning church people. Not to long ago I was made aware of a
situation at a church I used to attend. A 2 year old was run over in the
parking lot after Wednesday night service, she was the daughter of one of the
staff pastors, and was run over by a good friend of theirs as they backed out.
Where was god when that happened? Did he really allow that for the greater
good? Please.
8. Not enjoying and appreciating life everyday. I can honestly say I have let
life slip by. Why worry about living life to the full, when you are only
anticipating heaven? This world is but a mist. Since leaving the church, I
feel like my senses are on fire. I am excited to experience and enjoy all that
life has to offer everyday. I dont know if Ill have tomorrow, but I want to
enjoy today. I truly enjoy the wonders of creation MORE now, then when I was
saved! That blows my mind. Now some Christians would say you just want to go
out and live your sinful lifestyle. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you
die. So far, that is not my experience at all. Not that I would think there is
anything wrong with eating, drinking and being merry. But I still have high
aspirations for my life. I still want to help my fellow travelers. I am much
more inclined toward improving myself then I ever was as a Christian. Im sure
this may not be the case for everyone and that, of course, is fine. But I
truly have a higher regard for the people around me now then I did as a
Christian. At this point, I truly want to see the world become a better place.

==
James 5:14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to
pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.  And the prayer
offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.
If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
==
ecc 10:19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money
answereth all things .  [maketh...: Heb. maketh glad the life]
==
Legislators Sermonize, Pray to Jesus, Cast Out "Evil One" on
Assembly Floor Watchdog Asks Wisconsin Assembly to Stop Praying
June 19, 2008
(Madison, Wis.) The Freedom From Religion Foundation, a national
watchdog working to keep church and state separate, has asked
leadership in the Wisconsin State Assembly to stop opening sessions
with prayer, pointing out that one representative went so far as
to "exorcize the Assembly Chamber."
In a letter to Assembly Speaker Michael Huebsch, Foundation co-
presidents Dan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor pointed out: "Many of
these 'prayers' are nothing less than sermons meant to proselytize
and advance the Christian faith to the Wisconsin general public." The
pair called the Assembly's practice of opening sessions with strongly
sectarian prayers "an egregious violation," which advances the
Christian faith, excludes nonChristian and nonreligious legislators,
staffers and members of the public, and denigrates other faiths.
The Foundation's legal intern, Sarah Braasch, found that 16 of
the 17 "prayers/sermons" led by representatives and broadcast between
May 16, 2007 and May 28, 2008, were "explicitly Christian." Rep.
Terry Moulton, R-Chippewa Falls, pleaded: "Come, Holy Spirit of God,
and fill this place today. Jesus, in your name, and by the power of
your spirit, I come against the Evil One. And, I ask that he be cast
from this place, this day." (Audio)
Rep. Sheryl Albers, R-Reedsburg, made reference to the Pope, and
implied her allegiance was with religious, not civil law. (Audio)
Several legislators invoked various books or characters from the
bible, and prayers. Typical of Christian references was this prayer
by Rep. Daniel LeMahieu, R-Oostburg: "And, send us your son, to die
on the cross, to cover our sins, and the penalties of our sins."
Summary of Prayer Quotes by Wisconsin Legislators.
The Foundation pointed out that the religious practices of the
Wisconsin State Assembly "flagrantly exceed the constraints" of a
1983 Supreme Court case, Marsh v. Chambers, which "carved out a
narrow exception" for legislative prayer. Marsh holds that prayers
must be nonsectarian, nondenominational, not led by an officiant
selected upon any impermissible religious motive, and should be
addressed only to the body of legislators present and not
citizens.Marsh importantly requires that legislators have the option
not to participate.
Gaylor called "shocking" the coercion involved in ordering all
representatives to attend the opening prayer.
"On behalf of FFRF and its Wisconsin membership, we ask that the
Wisconsin State Assembly end its unnecessary, coercive and
unconstitutional practice of opening sessions with prayer/sermons. We
respectfully request that the Assembly leadership take immediate
steps to end this clear violation of the First Amendment and Art. I,
Sect. 18 of the Wisconsin Constitution, " wrote the Foundation.
In coverage by Associated Press, Rep. Moulton said he stood by
his statements, including asking Jesus to "command that any satanic
or evil forces be cast from the Assembly that day." He referred to
the Foundation as "a very wacko group that is completely out of tune
with mainstream America."
==
Teen's death renews scrutiny of faith-healing group
Oregon law may protect Followers of Christ members
The painful and apparently preventable faith-healing death of a 16-year-old
Oregon City boy this week brings the secretive Followers of Christ Church back
under legal scrutiny, just four months after the boy's infant niece died in
similar circumstances.
But unlike the girl's death, which resulted in criminal mistreatment and
manslaughter charges against her mother and father, Oregon law may protect the
parents of Neil Jeffrey Beagley, who under state statute was old enough to make
his own medical decisions.
Beagley died Tuesday at his grandmother's home, a week after first complaining
of stomach pain and shortness of breath. As Beagley's family and several dozen
church members prayed for what church members call spiritual healing, the
teenager deteriorated and died, according to police and medical investigators.
Dr. Cliff Nelson, Oregon deputy state medical examiner, said Wednesday that an
autopsy determined Beagley died of complications from a constriction where his
bladder empties into his urethra. Beagley became unable to urinate, an
intensely painful condition that caused his kidneys to stop extracting urea
from his bloodstream and triggered heart failure.
Nelson said the blockage, which may have been congenital, easily could have
been treated. "Basically, he couldn't void," Nelson said. "But it definitely
was treatable. Something as simple as catheterization (the insertion of a tube
into his bladder) could have saved his life."
Nelson also said the autopsy indicated that Beagley had suffered repeated
episodes of blockage and pain, probably throughout his life, with no apparent
medical intervention.
"His kidneys were shot," Nelson said. "Even if his life had been saved by
catheterization, he would have been a candidate for dialysis or a kidney
transplant." He said a different kind of catheter, which he termed a simple
"in-office procedure," could have solved the blockage problem.
"Laying on hands"
Instead, Beagley apparently suffered for at least a week. When his condition
worsened Sunday, he was taken to the Gladstone home of his grandmother, Norma
Beagley. Neighbors and police said more than 60 members of the Followers of
Christ Church gathered there to attempt faith-healing. Church followers
believe in treating illness by anointing the body in oil, "laying on hands"
and praying for a cure.
Sgt. Lynne Benton, Gladstone police spokeswoman, said a church leader called
the Clackamas County medical examiner's office about 5:30 p.m. Tuesday and
reported that Neil Beagley had died about an hour before. Benton said
investigators from Clackamas County's Major Crimes Unit then detained church
and family members for interviews, which lasted until about midnight.
"We processed the scene for evidence, but there was little for us to do,"
Benton said. "There were no signs of trauma or suicide."
Benton said all the interviews indicated Beagley refused medical treatment.
"Unless we can disprove that," Benton said, "charges probably won't be filed
in this case."
Niece also not treated
Church members declined to comment or answer any questions Wednesday.
In March, the church made national headlines when Beagley's 15-month-old
niece, Ava Worthington, died at home from bronchial pneumonia and a blood
infection -- conditions that medical experts deemed treatable with antibiotics.
The infant's parents, Carl and Raylene Worthington, have since pleaded not
guilty in Clackamas County Circuit Court to manslaughter and criminal
mistreatment. Their attorneys have indicated they will rely on a religious
freedom defense and have launched a Web site, www.worthingtondefense.info, to
rally nationwide support.
It's not clear whether authorities will bring charges against Neil Beagley's
parents, Jeffrey Dean Beagley and Marci Rae Beagley of Oregon City, his
grandmother or other church members.
"The district attorney's office is waiting for the investigation to be
complete," said Gregory D. Horner, Clackamas County chief deputy district
attorney. "We are researching applicable laws to make a determination."
Complex legal issue
Professor Leslie Harris, a University of Oregon law school faculty member who
specializes in children and the law, said the legal issues are complicated.
Harris said Oregon law generally confers the right of consent for medical care
to 15-year-olds. "But the right to consent to medical treatment may not be the
same as the right to refuse medical treatment," Harris said. "Those may be
very different questions."
Also unclear, Harris said, was whether the state would have to prove who
decided to decline conventional medical care or whether the law would assume
the choice was the boy's.
There are also questions about whether Beagley was in a position to exercise
his own judgment, given his medical condition and the social pressures of his
church, which has a history of shunning those who violate religious traditions.
Although Beagley was homeschooled and appeared to have little contact outside
his family and church, neighbors provided glimpses into his life.
Like a lot of teenage boys, Beagley sometimes mowed the lawn in front of his
cream-colored house. He was polite and had a driver's license.
Former neighbors in Oregon City said the Beagley parents and four kids were
nice but generally kept to themselves. They left the neighborhood several
months ago to build a new house near Beavercreek.
Lynnette Schouten, who lived next door to the family for 19 years, said she
sympathized with their loss -- to a point. A mother herself, she said she
could not imagine watching any of her children die in agonizing pain.
"To me, they're going through their own hell," she said. "At the same time, at
what point do these kids get protected?"
Neighbors could tell someone was sick at the Beagleys' when a convoy of cars
showed up, staying around the clock. They knew someone had died when the
medical examiner drove up.
"I just do not believe in what they believe in," Schouten said. "I cannot
understand how somebody can let their child suffer."
==
Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto
his people.
==
Religion is mind control. Ministers use religion to control people and earn
money shamelessly, as well as inflate their insatiable egos.
Religious leaders prey on the weak. People who have emotional problems are met
by pastors who promise them hope, love, and an afterlife, and at the same time,
are asked to empty their wallet in the offering plate.
They pour guilt on the unaware. How many teenagers have been in fear of
eternal damnation just for starting to learn to deal with their sexual feelings?
How many of the elderly have been duped out of their life savings just because
a pastor told them the more they give to God, the more they will receive?
Religious leaders are shameless charlatans, and religious followers are
emotionally weak people. 
==
"Do I not fill heaven and earth, saith the Lord?" -- Jeremiah 23:24. 
How can an omnipresent being ever be absent? 
God had to go down to inspect the Tower of Babel.
He asks a lot of questions in the OT?
==
"He that is not with me is against me"? (Mthw. 12:30)
==
 "Maybe animals will live eternally and God could combine a hell for human
beings with a heaven for mosquitoes." Check it out, that's a paraphrase of
what Lewis wrote in The Problem of Pain. 
==
Science is a self-correcting discipline. Religion has no such mechanism.
When religion is wrong, it stays wrong, and leaves fundamentalists in the
position of having to defend indefensible nonsense.
==
50 Reasons People Give for Believing in a God 
Author: Guy P. Harrison 
==
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pontificate/2.htm   fake Jesus
==
For example, Dionysus was born of a virgin, had meals including raw meat and
wine, was murdered, and resurrected, all in the mythical, heavenly realm. The
god Attis was another one who died and was resurrected in the mythical,
heavenly realm, and there were a host of others. (http://www.pantheon.org/) 
==
If you read Paul's Epistles, you will find that there is no mention of the
events found in the Gospels: no Bethlehem, no Nazareth, no Sermon on the
Mount, no conversations with Pharisees, no Gethsemane, no Calvary, no Joseph
of Arimathea. Paul apparently did not know of these things.
When Paul quotes Jesus, he doesn't refer to his teachings in the Gospels, but
to Isaiah (Hebrews 2:12) Did Paul not know of the teachings of Jesus found in
the gospels?
Also, Paul says that what he knows of Jesus entirely comes from personal
revelation (Gal.1:12) despite the fact that Paul claims to have stayed with
Peter and James (the disciples who allegedly lived with Jesus day and night
for three years) for 15 days (Gal.1:18,19).
Don't you think that Peter and James could have told Paul something about
Jesus if Jesus had actually come to the earth? Apparently, Peter and James
didn't know anything about Jesus' life on earth either.
According to Paul, how was Jesus made known? By scriptures and God's command
(Rom. 16:25,26). What about his three year career on earth? Also, Paul
says,"my gospel", not "the gospel" implying that it originated from him, not
Jesus.
Yes, it seems as though Paul sees himself as the chief arbiter of Christians'
relationship with Jesus: "I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I
might present you as a pure virgin to him." (2 Cor. 11:2)(NIV)
==
Rrecently, scientists have begun studying what underlies morality.
Theyve found that regardless of social class, religious upbringing, or country
of origin, people have similar basic principals regarding morality.
Additionally, specific areas of the brain are activated in response to moral
questions. Collectively, these studies suggest that our sense of morality is
innate and, therefore, independent of religious background. If our morality is
not dependent on religion then where does it come from? Although the jury is
still out, there is evidence of morality in animals. One study demonstrated
that a chimpanzee will starve itself in order to prevent harm to another chimp
and studies from behavioral biology clearly demonstrate that social primate
societies are intolerant of rape or theft. This is obvious evidence of
morality among creatures that completely lack the capacity to believe in God.
From the examples above, it is clear that being religious and believing in God
does not correlate in any way with social health or general morality.
Furthermore, scientists are beginning to understand where our morality comes
from and it is clear from the work done thus far that our sense of right and
wrong has roots in our evolutionary past--not a system of beliefs and
ideologies invented merely 2000 years ago.
==
http://www.rationalresponders.com/  anti-religion
==
Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they
shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their
women with child shall be ripped up.
==
We obsere Sunday instead of Saturday because the Council of
Laodicea(A.D. 336) transferred the solomnity from Saturday to Sunday

Saturday was declared the day of worship for Adventists in 1846 by
Ellen G, White & Joseph Bates
==
Genesis 1 to 11 are not history. Contemporary Catholic Catechism, 1973.
==
According to the Council of Trent. Biblical interpretation could be only
according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers, but they were rarely
unanimous. There are only 7 verses that have been infallibly interpreted -
John 3:5 (Baptism); Luke 22:19 (Mass); 1 Corinthians 11:24 (Communion);
John 20:22 (Holy Orders); John 20:23 (Penance); Romans 5:12 (Original Sin)
and James 5:14 (Extreme Unction). 
==
http://DebunkingChristianity.blogspot.com/
==
Charles Templeton (the "Billy Graham" of Canada who left the faith) 
Book called "Farewell to God.
==
A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in
God - at a time when 68.5 per cent of the general UK population described
themselves as believers. 
A separate poll in the 90s found only seven per cent of members of the
American National Academy of Sciences believed in God. 
"Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I
believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the
general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have
shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God." 
He said religious belief had declined across 137 developed nations in the 20th
century at the same time as people became more intelligent. 
==
"I am bound by the laws of the United States and all 50 states...I am not
bound by any case or any court to which I myself am not a party...I don't
think the Congress of the United States is subservient to the courts...They
can ignore a Supreme Court ruling if they so choose."--Pat Robertson

"There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution.
It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore." 
--Pat Robertson
==
AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's
punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.  --Jerry Falwell        
==
Home Writings U.S. Militarys Middle East Crusade for Christ
U.S. Militarys Middle East Crusade for Christ
Written by Robert Weitzel
They are proselytizing not on behalf of the Constitution of the United States
. . . but rather on behalf of some sort of fanatical view of end times. And
they are using our army to affect that.
- Former Ambassador Joseph Wilson
Last August the watchdog group, Military Religious Freedom Foundation, foiled
a Pentagon plan that would have allowed the shipment of freedom packages to
soldiers and Marines in Iraq. The parcels were put together by the
fundamentalist Christian ministry, Straight Up, and contained Bibles,
proselytizing tracts in English and Arabic, and the apocalyptic Left Behind
computer game, in which Christian Tribulation forces convert or kill
infidels  nonbelievers, Muslims and Jews.
On May 1 the Senate approved the promotion of Brigadier General Robert L.
Caslen Jr. to Major General. Currently the commandant of cadets at West Point,
he will become the commander of the 25th Infantry Division. He is also
president of the stridently fundamentalist Officers Christian Fellowship,
whose vision is a spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for
Christ in uniform, empowered by the Holy Spirit
General Caslen was promoted despise the Defense Departments recommended
disciplinary action against him and several other senior military leaders
because they had improperly endorsed and participated with a nonfederal entity
while in uniform by participating in a promotional video for the Campus Crusade
For Christs Christian Embassy, an evangelical organization that ministers to
Beltway politicians and sponsors weekly Bible studies at the Pentagon.
According to the DoD Inspector Generals report, one of the generals involved
asserted that Christian Embassy was treated as an instrumentality of the
Pentagon Chaplains office for over 25 years, and had effectively become a
quasi federal entity. Arguably, he believed his participation in the video was
in the line of duty.
Considering both the Pentagons evangelical proclivity and a 2006 Pew survey
which found that of the major religious groups in America, evangelicals have
the most negative views of Islam and Muslims, the U.S. sniper who was recently
caught using the Quran for target practice in the Baghdad neighborhood of
Radhwaniya might be excused for thinking the book was a legitimate target upon
which to perfect his craft . . . excused for thinking he was acting in the line
duty.
And is it any wonder that with evangelicals and fundamentalists at the very
top of the militarys officer corps  to say nothing of their Commander in
Chief  that an enlisted Marine was passing out Christian witnessing coins
inscribed in Arabic at a checkpoint in Fallujah? One side of the coin asked,
Where will you spend eternity? An evangelical favorite, John 3:16, was on the
flip side.
Sheik Adul-Rahman al-Zubaie, a tribal leader in Fallujah who was outraged by
the Marines proselytizing said, This event did not happen by chance, but it
was planned and done intentionally.
While the Marines proselytizing is not the official policy of the
predominately Christian force occupying the predominately Islamic Iraq, it was
done in the line of duty with a wink and a nod from his chain of command. Think
Abu Ghraib!
From Fort Jackson, the Armys largest basic training facility, where trainees
are encouraged to attend Campus Crusades weekly Gods Basic Training programs,
to the U.S. Air Force Academy where students are pressured to attend the
Crusades weekly cru (short for crusade) Bible study, American military
personnel are, as Campus Crusades Scot Blom gloats, government paid
missionaries when they complete their training.
As the demands of fighting a perpetual war against radical Islam begins to
strain both the militarys resources and the countrys resolve, the Pentagon has
begun outsourcing larger chunks of the war to private contractors. Predictably,
our government paid missionaries have become more expensive and much less
controllable or accountable.
The Bush administrations favorite contractor, Blackwater, is the most powerful
private army in the world. It commands thousands of mercenaries in Iraq and
Afghanistan, has over a billion dollars in government contracts, and enjoys
complete immunity from prosecution for its theater of operations conduct.
Blackwaters founder, Erik Prince, a staunchly conservative Catholic, has also
served on the board of directors of Christian Freedom International, a
crusading missionary organization operating in the overwhelmingly Islamic
countries of Sudan, Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq. Prince envisions an
evangelical end time role for his warriors, Everybody carries guns, just like
Jeremiah rebuilding the temple in Israel  a sword in one hand and a trowel in
the other.
No one in the last decade has contributed more to end time, apocalyptic
evangelism than John Hagee, a televangelist seen by millions of viewers weekly
and pastor of the 19,000-member Cornerstone Church. Hagee preaches that in
order to bring about the Second Coming of Christ and the Rapture of true
believers, Islam first has to be destroyed.
In a 2006 interview with National Public Radios Terry Gross, Hagee told her,
Those who live by the Quran have a scriptural mandate to kill Christians and
Jews. He went on to claim that there are 200 million Muslims waiting for the
chance to attack Israel and the United States. From his pulpit, Hagee makes it
clear to his congregation and the radio and television audience what they can
expect from American Muslims if such an attack ever took place, While American
Muslims live in America, 82 percent are not loyal to America and are not
willing to fight and defend America.
In his book, Jerusalem Countdown - A Warning to the World, Hagee warns that
the war between Islam and the West is a war that Islam cannot and must not win.
John Hagee is not just a mad evangelizing prophet. He is the mad evangelizing
prophet who is courted by a war president, a hawkish presidential candidate
and members of Congress from both parties. His Islamophobic bilge has trickled
down from Capital Hill, through the labyrinthine corridors of the Pentagon, and
into the chamber of a snipers rifle and the hand of a Marine guarding a
checkpoint in Fallujah.
Officers in the military are expected to lead by example. Enlisted personnel
are expected to follow that example. If the recent incidents at Radhwaniya and
Fallujah are not just the acts of renegades, then the chain of command seems to
be working the way it was designed.
==
Mark9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee
to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast
into hell fire: (KJV)
==
Hal Lindsey is currently married to his fourth wife, having divorced his
previous three. 
==
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism#Scriptural_Requirements
===
http://www.fstdt.com/   Fundie quotes
==
http://www.globusz.com/Articles/00000002.asp  religion = mental illness
==
The Jesus of the Synoptic gospels was about "right action."  
Jesus in the Gospel of John and in Paul's epistles was about rewarding 
humans for "correct belief."
==
"For those who may not find happiness to exercise
religious faith, it's okay to remain a radical
atheist, it's absolutely an individual right, but the
important thing is with a compassionate heart--then no
problem." --Dalai Lama (Head of the Dge-lugs-pa order
of Tibetan Buddhists, 1989 Nobel Peace Prize, b.1935)
==
My line of thought goes like this:
1. Religious belief is founded on fundamentally irrational assumptions (that
there is a god, that a particular scripture is literally true, etc). With
irrationality as the source of religious truth, anything can be claimed to be
true, and anything claimed to be true based on irrationality is equally
defensible and refutable using reasoning corrupted by irrationality.
Therefore, religious belief should not be synonymous with absolute truth.
2. The apologist may counter this by saying that there are many good reasons
to make the irrational leap of faith. But if you review them carefully, the
reasons commonly given (design in nature, coherence of scripture, "look all
the intelligent people who have been believers," etc, etc, etc.) are all
applicable to one or more OTHER religions as well. Therefore, none of the
reasons commonly given for belief are good reasons, and do not justify a claim
of absolute spiritual truth.
3. The only good reason I see for belief is if one has had a mystical
experience of a spiritual/divine nature (that can't be explained by epilepsy,
an acid flashback, or simply a very emotional experience as a result of
intensely wanting to see god).
However, while this establishes spiritual truth for the individual, it cannot
be used to convince anyone else of this subjectively experienced truth.
Further, belief is irrelevant if one has had a spiritual experience, since
faith/belief is unnecessary in the presence of experience, so once again,
belief seems to me to be invalid and groundless as an act and state of mind.
==
A truth and reconciliation commission examining what native leaders call one
of the most tragic and racist chapters in Canada 's history has begun.
The commission will study Canada 's decades-long policies that removed
Aboriginal children from their families to force Christianity upon them.
The state-funded religious schools were often the scenes of horrific physical
and sexual abuse.
The commission has a five-year mandate to detail the abuses.
From the 19th Century until the 1970s, more than 150,000 aboriginal children
were required to attend Christian schools in an attempt to rid them of their
native cultures and languages and integrate them into society.
==
http://webulite.com/front
==
 Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman
pontiff is "the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and
in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the
vicegerent of Christ, who is "very God and very man." Decretales Domini
Gregorii translatione Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7,
chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris,
==
"The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of
this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practise and life
of the Church, in her belief and her prayer." [38]0 (Catechism of the Catholic
Church)
==
"The supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds,
therefore, requires (...) complete submission and obedience of will to the
Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself." -Leo VIII, ĞOn the Chief
Duties of Christians as Citizensğ, Encyclical letter, 1890
==
BOM and the KJV: A few notable examples: 1 Nephi 20 and 21 are the same as
Isaiah 48 and 49; 2 Nephi 7 and 8 are the same as Isaiah 50 to 52:2; 2 Nephi
12 to 24 is the same as Isaiah 2 to 14; 2 Nephi 27:25-35 is the same as Isaiah
29:13-24; Mosiah 14 is the same as Isaiah 53; 3 Nephi 24 is the same as Malachi
3; 3 Nephi 25 is the same as Malachi 4 and Moroni 10:9-17 is essentially the
same as 1Corin
==
 "We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"   
--Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894 

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." 
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "
Cities Petrus Bertanous".
==
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6064/godpm9.gif   anti-Bible
==
They couldn't verify their stories if they weren't around to verify
them. Mark's account of Jesus' trip to Lebanon says Jesus returned
from South Lebanon to Galilee via North Lebanon. That would be like
driving from LA to Houston via Seattle. So, Mark wasn't with Jesus and
he didn't know east Levantine geography very well. If he was never
with Jesus, he couldn't personally verify a resurrection.
==
Othmar Keel - The Symbolism of the Biblical World
==
'The Origins of Christianity and the Bible' by Andrew D. Benson.

Pagan Origins of the Christian Myth.com is a good start.
==
The Amish take their name from Jacob Ammann, a Swiss Mennonite bishop 
==
BIG IDEA: A 1954 letter from Albert Einstein to philosopher Eric Gutkind was
recently auctioned for $404,000.

A letter by Einstein and comments by a Vatican astronomer stoke the discussion.

The ongoing debate over whether religion and science comfortably coexist got
more ammunition this month, and on both sides of the argument.

This ammunition took thought-provoking forms -- a foundation dedicated to
exploring provocative questions, a letter written in 1954 by Albert Einstein
and a Vatican astronomer who said it's OK to believe in space aliens.
Let's start with Einstein.
The letter was sold at auction in London on May 15 for $404,000. Einstein,
writing a year before his death to philosopher Eric Gutkind, said, "The word
God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human
weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends
which are nevertheless pretty childish."
But Einstein once said that "Science without religion is lame, religion
without science is blind," and people with and without faith have long argued
that he fell into their camp.
Some atheist bloggers warmly greeted the letter. In it Einstein celebrated his
Jewish cultural roots, but also said, "For me the Jewish religion like all
others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."
Next up: space aliens.
Speaking with the Vatican newspaper LOsservatore Romano, Father Jose Gabriel
Funes said it's possible life exists elsewhere in the universe.
"How can we rule out that life may have developed elsewhere?" said Funes,
director of the Vatican observatory. "Just as we consider earthly creatures as
'a brother,' and 'sister,' why should we not talk about an 'extraterrestrial
brother'? It would still be part of creation."
In the story headlined "The extraterrestrial is my brother," Funes told the
newspaper that the concept of alien life "doesn't contradict our faith." He
called the Big Bang theory of the creation of the universe "reasonable" and
said that the Bible "is not a science book."

Next, a debate:

The John Templeton Foundation, which explores topics related to religion, is
fond of asking thoughtful people what it likes to call Big Questions. A
previous question: "Does the universe have a purpose?" (Reviews were mixed.)

This month the foundation asked, "Does science make belief in God obsolete?"
The answers may be read in their entirety at http://www.templeton .org/belief/

Here are excerpts from a few of the answers:

* From Steven Pinker, Harvard University psychology professor and author of
"How the Mind Works":

Yes, if by "science" we mean the entire enterprise of secular reason and
knowledge (including history and philosophy), not just people with test tubes
and white lab coats. Traditionally, a belief in God was attractive because it
promised to explain the deepest puzzles about origins. Where did the world
come from? What is the basis of life? How can the mind arise from the body?
Why should anyone be moral?

Yet over the millennia, there has been an inexorable trend: the deeper we
probe these questions, and the more we learn about the world in which we live,
the less reason there is to believe in God.

Start with the origin of the world. Today no honest and informed person can
maintain that the universe came into being a few thousand years ago and
assumed its current form in six days (to say nothing of absurdities like day
and night existing before the sun was created). Nor is there a more abstract
role for God to play as the ultimate first cause. This trick simply replaces
the puzzle of "Where did the universe come from?" with the equivalent puzzle
"Where did God come from?"
==
2pe 2:5  if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald
of righteousness, with seven other persons, when he brought a flood upon the
world of the ungodly;

Ge7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high
hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. (KJV)

isa 54:9  "For this is like the days of Noah to me: as I swore that the waters
of Noah should no more go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be
angry with you and will not rebuke you.

"By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with
godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he
condemned the world and became heir of righteousness which is according to
faith" (Hebrews 11:7).
Isaiah 54:9, God states, "I swore that the waters of Noah would never again
cover the Earth." Peter delivered a clear global warning, confirming that God
created the Earth, devastated it by the Flood, and will one day destroy it
again by fire (2 Peter 3:5-7).
==
To be a Christian, 

1.	Don't ask questions that might jeopardize your faith
2.	Do not accept logical answers.
3.	God is the only truth; anyone else is automatically a liar even before
    opening their mouths.
4.	Believe without question.
5.	Anything that deviates from your beliefs is an automatic lie.
6.	And finally, if someone asks you to prove your faith, do not ever give
    them a straight answer.
==
deu 7:2  and when the LORD your God gives them over to you, and you defeat
them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with
them, and show no mercy to them.
==
In 325 AD when Constantine was trying to unify his empire, he called
together The Council of Nicea. The Council cherry-picked from all of
the 'sacred' writings and MANUFACTURED a story that suited the needs
of the government. The remaining books are commonly called The Apocrypha.

A famous Rabbi was regarded by some of his
followers as the Messiah. It is not clear if he supported or ignored
the claims.
When he died in 1994 that left that group baffled. Several sub groups
developed, each in their way believed the Rabbi never died, will rise
from the dead or already rose from the dead.
All these myths developed less than 20 years after his death, in our
days, despite conclusive evidences that he died.
For more information, read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism
==
Ge6:13 And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh;
for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy
them with the earth. (RSV)
Ge7:22 everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life
died. (RSV)
Ge7:23 He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the ground,
man and animals and creeping things and birds of the air; they were blotted
out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those that were with him in the
ark. (RSV)\\ Ge7:22 everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the
breath of life died. (RSV)

Ge7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high
hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Ge7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the
mountains were covered. (KJV)

According to a telephone poll conducted by ABCNEWS/Primetime in 2004, 60% of
US residents believe the story of Noah's Ark is literally true.
==
In this materialist view, people perceive Godas existence because their brains
have evolved to confabulate belief systems. You put a magnetic helmet around
their heads and they will begin to think they are having a spiritual epiphany.
If they suffer from temporal lobe epilepsy, they will show signs of
hyperreligiosity, an overexcitement of the brain tissue that leads sufferers
to believe they are conversing with God.
==
in the case of Judaism, the earth as created 3761 years BC.
==
"But if ... evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then
they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and
the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..." 
(Deuteronomy 22:20,21)
==
In 1992, after 12 years of deliberations, the Roman Catholic Church grudgingly
admitted that Galileo Galilei had been right in supporting the theories of
Copernicus. The Holy Inquisition had forced an aged Galileo to recant his
ideas under threat of torture in 1633. But no such admission has been made in
the case of Bruno. His writings are still on the Vatican's list of forbidden
texts.
==
GENESIS 7:22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the
breath of the spirit of life, died. -NASB
==
GENESIS 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
-KJV
==
Joseph Campell   The Transformation of Myth Through Time
==
No Nazareth existed until the fourth century. Josephus never
mentions it and he grew up less than a mile from where it was supposed to be.
==
Hell
"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41 
"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41 
"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29 
"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47 
"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47 
"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33 
"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29 
"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50 
"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45 
"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48 
"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48 
"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50 
"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30 
"torments" Luke 16:23 
"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24 
"place of torment" Luke 16:28 
"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13 
"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46 
==
Czech reformer Jan Hus, before he was burned at the stake in Konstanz in
1415, once asked of the church heirarchy in Prague: "If Jesus was poor, why
are you so rich?"

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/feb2000/brun-f16.shtml  Bruno
==
"Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism" edited by Petto &
Godfrey, 2007. The ID and creationist crowd are trying to do away with science.
They see science as a "godless religion." The ID and creationist crowd say
training in science is brainwashing. The creationists are seriously mentally
ill. It is religion that is brainwashing.

"Manufacturing Belief" by Lewis Wolpert
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/15/lewis_wolpert/

"The End of Faith" and "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris

"Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", by Daniel Dennett
Let's do scientific research on religion and find out what causes it.

"Origins of the Modern Mind" by Merlin Donald 1991 "So what did you expect
from a brain that is based on the Chimpanzee brain?


"God: The Failed Hypothesis" by Victor Stenger Scientific proof that god does
not exist.

"The God Part of the Brain" by Matthew Alper 1996. "The USA is anomolusly
religious because many early founder groups were religiously insane and fleeing
prosecution in Europe. Religion is a genetic disorder."

"The Accidental Mind" by David J. Linden, 2007 Belknap Press of Harvard
University Press. Religion is caused by the extreme klugeyness of the
"designed"
by evolution brain. In particular, the narrative creation system cannot be
turned
off. It generates false narratives that are believed by the generating person.
This is
seen in experiments done in the laboratory.

"The Neuropsychological bases of god beliefs" Dr. Michael A. Persinger MD,
psychiatrist 1987 "Religious people are just like my temporal lobe patients"

"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind" Julian
Jaynes Professor, Harvard University 1976 "Religious people are just like
schizophrenic patients"

"The Psychiatric Interview in Clinical Practice" Roger A. MacKinnon, M.D.,
Robert Michels, M.D. W. B. Saunders Co. 1971 "Religiosity is a common
symptom [of] schizophrenic patients"

"The God delusion" by Richard Dawkins. "Religion is caused by a kind of
computer virus that infects the living computer, the human brain."

"The Science of Good and Evil" by Michael Shermer, 2004 "Morality and Ethics
are now in the jurisdiction of Science and greatly improved thereby."

==
Benny Hinn, a TV preacher who runs the World Healing Center Church in
Grapevine, Texas. Hinn, who travels the globe conducting faith-healing
revivals, lives in a seven-bathroom, eight-bedroom mansion overlooking the
Pacific Ocean valued at $10 million. It is claimed as a parsonage.

The Rev. Creflo Dollar's World Changers Church International in College Park,
Ga. Dollar drives a Rolls Royce and has large homes in Georgia and New York.
He is asked to provide a list of all vehicles provided for himself, his wife,
board members and ministry employees.

Joyce Meyer Ministries in Fenton, Mo. Grassley asks Meyer and her husband
David to explain expenditures like a $23,000 commode with a marble top, a
$30,000 conference table, an $11,000 French clock and a $19,000 pair of vases
for the ministry headquarters.

Kenneth Copeland Ministries in Newark, Texas. Copeland is asked to explain how
cash offerings are handled during overseas crusades and to explain the use of
a ministry jet for "layovers" in Maui, Fiji and Honolulu.
==
The first of the two creation myths in the Bible is a
Hebrew variant of an original already ancient by 800
BC or whenever it was composed. Whether its author
literally believed it to be true or not is hard to
say, but probably not, since it's an obvious reworking
of a Canaanite derivative of initially Mesopotamian
stories.

The myth is more suited to Mesopotamian than Levantine
conditions (the Levant or "Rising" is the eastern
shore of the Med, where the sun "rises"). The
Sumerians lived in low-lying areas near the mouths of
great rivers, which periodically flooded the land,
while also close the shore of the Persian Gulf, so
that tides daily inundated their reedy wetland
environment in the midst of a desert. Babylonia lay
farther upstream, but still relied upon the Tigris &
Euphrates for irrigation.

Strange that biblical inerrantists claim so much else
in the Bible is to be taken figuratively rather than
literally, yet insist upon a literal interpretation of
the stories early in Genesis, which so contradict
observed reality & each other.

Interestingly, the Babylonian (Akkadian, an East
Semitic language) version of the myth in Genesis 1,
the Enuma Elish, was written on seven clay tablets.
The similarities with the Bible are even greater in
the Ugaritic (Canaanite, West Semitic, closely related
to Hebrew) variant of the legend. Ugaritic is related
to Phoenician, which became Punic, the language of
Carthage, enemy of Rome.

The hero of the Sumerian original is Enlil, of the
Babylonian variant Marduk & of the Canaanite version
Ba'al Zaphon (or Tsaphon), whose home was Mt. Zaphon
(comparable to Mt. Olympus in Greek mythology), a
prominence near the mouth of the Orontes River in
present day coastal Syria, at the north end of the
Levant, where the Mediterranean Sea coast turns west
in modern Turkey. "Zaphon" not only became the Hebrew
word for "north", but also is contrasted in the Bible
with Zion, the holy mountain by Jerusalem, sacred to
the chief Hebrew God, YHWH.

You can read the Enuma Elish in English translation
here:

http://ccat. sas.upenn. edu/~humm/ Resources/
Ane/enumaA. html

In Canaanite scripture, "elohim" is translated as
"gods", since it's a plural word. The same word in
Hebrew also means "gods", but has come to be thought
of, rightly or wrongly, as referring to the chief
Hebrew tribal god YHWH (in the consonantal Hebrew
alphabet, lacking vowels), who over time came to be
seen as the One God, Adonai (the Lord) or El Shaddai
(the Most High, or something like that).

There is mythic meaning in these stories, but they
aren't of course literally true. Some points of
Genesis 1 are that the cosmos was created in some way,
that the seventh day is holy & should be devoted to
worship instead of work & that the singular-plural
"Elohim" is mightier than His plural pagan
predecessors.

Genesis 1 (KJV)

"1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the
earth.

"2. And the earth was without form, and void; and
darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit
of God moved upon the face of the waters."

A better translation would be something like: "At the
head of when the gods' filled the heavens and the
earth, the earth was shapeless & empty; and darkness
was over the face of the deep, and the wind of the
gods hovered over the face of the waters."

The biblical author reworked familiar Canaanite
creation mythology, derived ultimately from the
Sumerian original, as modified by Babylonians & other
Mesopotamians. "Wind" preserves the memory of Enlil,
Sumerian Lord of Wind (god of storm, thunder, air &
open space), & of the fight between Marduk & Tiamat in
the Babylonian version & Ba'al Zaphon & Yam in the
Ugaritic (Canaanite) variant.

In these earlier myths, a hero defeats a sea goddess
(a dragon in Ba'al's case), using the wind & his
thunder clubs as weapons. Marduk makes heaven & earth
out of the parts of Tiamat (like a giant clamshell)
after he cleaves her in two, bringing order from the
chaos of the primordial abyss.

The Hebrew word "waters" (mayim) is cognate with
Ugaritic "Yam", the sea goddess; in fact the Hebrew
word for "sea" is "yam". When Moses parts the sea of
reeds with outstretched arm, he is associated with
Ba'al Zaphon, wielding his might thunder club. Note
that Tiamat's East Semitic name includes "iam",
cognate with West Semitic "yam".

"3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was
light.

"4. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God
divided the light from the darkness.

"5. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he
called Night. And the evening and the morning were the
first day."

Note that the biblical author thought not only that
light on earth is independent of the sun (as of course
star light is, but no sources of visible light had yet
been created, not sun, nor stars, let alone galaxies),
but that the alternation of night & day are likewise
not dependent upon the sunshine & the daily rotation
of the earth. Not surprising, since he didn't know
that the earth is a sphere orbiting the sun & that the
sun is a star.

Also noteworthy is that there's no way to know how
long such an unconventional night & day, evening &
morning might have lasted, since not regulated by a
turning earth & burning sun.

"6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the
midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from
the waters.

"7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters
which were under the firmament from the waters which
were above the firmament: and it was so.

"8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the
evening and the morning were the second day."

"Firmament" translates the Hebrew word "raqiyeh",
which is onomatopoeic, similarly to English "racket",
from the sound of pounding on metal. The firmament is
a solid dome hammered out of some hard substance such
as bronze, as if it were a large bowl turned upside
down (like the top of a clamshell).

The dome needs to be solid to keep the waters above
the earth from falling down when not wanted. Later in
the bible we learn that the dome is equipped with
windows or floodgates, which God operates to let rain
fall from the waters above, & snow & hail from their
storehouses.

To an observer on earth of course, the sky does look
like a dome, of crystal (as at one point later in the
Bible) or a highly polished metallic surface.

Note that the process of creation involves division &
separation at each step, just as Marduk cleaved Tiamat
& Ba'al split Yam into heaven & earth. Here the
waters below are separated from the waters above, in
the course of bringing order out of primeval chaos.

"9. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be
gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land
appear: and it was so.

"10. And God called the dry land Earth; and the
gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and
God saw that it was good."

As noted, the Hebrew word "yam" is translated by
"Seas", again referring back to the Canaanite mythic
model. The biblical author has recast the myth with
his own tribal god as the heroic protagonist, although
still called "elohim", as in the Ugaritic version, but
making or filling heaven & earth in a somewhat
different way from Ba'al.

Still, the biblical Hero works by dividing, gathering
together separately the land from the waters. The
land, ie the earth, forms the bottom of the clamshell
of creation.

This is the standard, pre-scientific view of the
cosmos, a flat earth over a reservoir of underground
fresh water, surrounded by saltwater, covered with a
solid vault of heaven holding back the fresh waters
above. Versions of this cosmology were shared by
Mesopotamians, Levantines, Egyptians & pre-scientific
Greeks, among other cultures of the ancient
Mediterranean & Near Eastern world.

"11. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass,
the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding
fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon
the earth: and it was so.

"12. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb
yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding
fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and
God saw that it was good.

"13. And the evening and the morning were the third
day."

It's much easier to read evolution into Genesis 1 than
it is to twist & pervert modern astronomy into the
story. Note that the earth brings forth plants.

But even setting aside the issue of what constitutes
one of these proto-days, the first appearance of
plants is out of order both with respect to observed
reality & to Genesis 2, the Adam & Eve story. In the
fossil record of life on earth, vascular plants didn't
evolve until long after animals. In the Cambrian,
lots of fairly large, complex, multicellular animals,
with hard body parts, existed but no plants. The
photosynthetic organisms of that day, 540 million
years ago, eaten by marine arthropods like trilobites
& other "herbivorous" (more accurately
bacteriophagous) animals, were cyanobacteria, the
so-called "blue-green algae", which form colonies in
sun-lit, shallow waters.

Maybe sometime I'll be able to comment on the other
verses in Genesis 1, should anyone care. Maybe
eventually Genesis 2, the Tower of Babel & Flood
myths, too.
==
Craig and Moreland  "Philosophical foundations of Christianity"

Jason Long "Biblical Nonsense'
==
If a person doesn't already understand that cruelty is wrong, he won't
discover this by reading the Bible or the Koran, as these books are bursting
with celebrations of cruelty, both human and divine. We do not get our
morality from religion.
==
Pretending to know things one doesn't know is a profound liability in science.
And yet it is the life-blood of faith-based religion. One of the monumental
ironies of religious discourse can be found in the frequency with which people
of faith praise themselves for their humility, while claiming to know facts
about cosmology, chemistry and biology that no scientist knows. 
==

MARK 9:1 And He was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of
those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the
kingdom of God after it has come with power." -NASB
==
Charles Marsh  "Wayward Christian Soldiers,"
==
Air Safety: Nepal Airlines, which was having technical trouble with one of
its two Boeing 757s in August, announced that it had fixed the problem by
sacrificing two goats to appease the Hindu sky god Akash Bhairab. [Reuters,
9-4-07]
==
"The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be
wives or prostitutes." Works 12.94
"Even though they grow weary and wear themselves out with child-bearing, it
does not matter; let them go on bearing children till they die, that is what
they are there for." Works 20.84
Martin Luther,
==
Fundamentalists, even some "scholars", suppose
that not only Genesis but the entire Pentateuch was
written by Moses! It should be obvious prima facie
that this belief is a little suspicious, for, among
other good reasons, that Moses dies in Numbers & is
buried by God in Deuteronomy.
==
Do you also believe what your god said, in the Bible, about healing people?

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let
them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the
prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up." --
James 5:14-15

"The Lord ... healeth all thy diseases" -- Psalms 103:2-3

"And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet,
until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the
LORD, but to the physicians." 
-- 2 Chronicles 16:12

"Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of
his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach:
a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or
that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones
broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come
nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he
shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in
unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he
profane not my sanctuaries."
-- Leviticus 21:17-23
==
Mat 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which
slept arose, 
Mat 27:53  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into
the holy city, and appeared unto many. 
==
Belief is not rational. It does not lend itself or tolerate questioning,
investigation, modification or contradiction. It is an ALL or NOTHING state of
mind. It is totally fixed in Time and Space. 
==In the wake of the tornadoes that recently ravaged the Southern US, I am once
again amazed by the ability of Christians to justify and excuse their god for
the evil in the world and praise him for the things that turn out positive.
What's worse, they sometimes claim that their "omnipotent" god is not even
responsible for the bad things!
"Thirteen were killed in Arkansas, seven in Kentucky, and five were killed in
Alabama where some 500 homes were also destroyed. Tennessee was the hardest
hit, with 34 killed and 230 citizens still unaccounted for in the poor,
farming areas of Macon County near the Kentucky border."
Today's comic was inspired by a report on NPR, in the aftermath of the
tornadoes. A woman being interviewed had survived (not in very good shape,
mind you) her mobile home being destroyed around her. When the interviewer
asked why she thinks she survived, she said, "God must have a plan for me."
The very next question was about her husband who was killed in the storm. She
replied, "Jesus took him home."
And that reminded me of a conversation I had with a christian friend right
after hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans a few years ago. I asked, "How can
your god kill and injure so many innocent people?" Her reply was, "You can't
blame God for the weather."
==
God and weather
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth
forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will
I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Deuteronomy 11:17 And [then] the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he
shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her
fruit; and [lest] ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD
giveth you.
Deuteronomy 28:24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust:
from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
1 Samuel 12:18 So Samuel called unto the LORD; and the LORD sent thunder and
rain that day: and all the people greatly feared the LORD and Samuel.
Nahum 1:3 The LORD [is] slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all
acquit [the wicked]: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm,
and the clouds [are] the dust of his feet.
==
Mr. Hagee argues that the United States must join Israel in a preemptive,
biblically prophesized military strike against Iran that will lead to the
second coming of Christ.
Hagee's has extensive writings on Armageddon and about his belief
that the anti-Christ will be the head of the European Union.
==
Donation of Constantine
The Catholic Church founded much of it's early legitimacy on a document called
the Donation of Constantine, which supposedly granted Pope Sylvester I and the
Bishops of Rome sovereignty over Rome, Italy and the entire Western Empire in
324 CE. Constantine is said to have granted this to Sylvester for having cured
him of leprosy. However, the Donation was proved to be a forgery in 1440 by
Lorenzo Valla.
It is believed that the Church manufactured it around the year 752 to give it
greater authority against the secular kings of the day. Of course, by the time
the forgery was uncovered, it was far too late to reverse a thousand years of
Roman domination 
==
JEFFERSON CITY ­A proposal to emphasize the right to pray in public turned
Thursday into a fight over religion, politics and how to get the most voters
to the polls. 
The proposal, sponsored by Republican Rep. Mike McGhee of Odessa, would add
more than 300 words to the state Constitution' s guarantee of religious
freedom in Missouri. 
==
More than $1 billion annually funneled through ORU?
A former Oral Roberts University accountant revised his lawsuit on Thursday to
allege that more than $1 billion annually was funneled through the university,
possibly to individual regents.
"It appears that many of the former board members were actual participants in
the funneling of money through the university for their own eventual personal
use, and thus, the foxes were watching the hen house," says former accountant
Trent Huddleston's lawsuit.
ORU spokesman Jeremy Burton said, "The allegations of inappropriately
funneling money through accounts as alleged by the plaintiff have no basis in
fact."
Huddleston's attorney Gary Richardson said Huddleston had seen the account
when he worked at ORU, between July 2006 and October 2007. In the lawsuit,
Huddleston claims he was wrongfully fired because ORU, Oral Roberts Ministries
and their leaders' fears he would talk about the alleged "'unrestricted'
account" and because he regularly questioned expenses.
Richardson said he received confirmation about the alleged unrestricted
account from a person who should know. Until he received confirmation, he
agreed that funneling of $1 billion seemed implausible.
"Based on the confirmation, I'm very confident" in the allegation, Richardson
said. "As confident as one can be without seeing it for oneself."
In 2005-06, ORU's expenses were $83.89 million and revenue was $79.7 million,
according to its Internal Revenue Service filing.
Richardson had not seen any documentation of the alleged account or flow of
money, he said, and he "cannot disclose" whether the information came from an
audit of ORU's finances, performed after more of Richardson's clients sued ORU
and alleged that its president and his family had misspent ORU and Oral Roberts
Ministries money. ORU has not made the audit public, and officials have said
ORU's former board of regents received the report verbally. ORU is now
governed by a new board of trustees.
"I have no answers about where this money came from nor where it went,"
Richardson said.
The new version of Huddleston's lawsuit adds as defendants all of ORU's former
business regents, a former associate regent, Oral Roberts Evangelistic
Association and the association/Oral Roberts Ministries directors, John and
Jane Does.

===
My hope lies in humanity, in the expanding of knowledge. My hope lies
in us continuing to learn and grow as time goes on as we have been
doing. Times in the Dark Ages and before were barbaric, cruel, and
immoral. We've advanced quite admirably; when was the last time you
attended a witch burning.
==
Christianity defined
The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own
father can make you live forever if you symbolically
eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accwpt
him as your master, so he can remove an evil force
from your soul that is present in humanity because a 
rib/woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from
a magical tree. I makes perfect sense.
==
http://www.secular.org/

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evohome.html
==
Deu 3:6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon,
utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. (KJV)

Josh 10:30 And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the
hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls
that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as
he did unto the king of Jericho. 
Josh 10:28 And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the
sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that
were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did
unto the king of Jericho. (KJV)

 Jdgs1:25 And when he shewed them the entrance into the city, they smote
the city with the edge of the sword; but they let go the man and all his
family. (KJV)
==
Jesus for President?
For one thing, Jesus meets none of the constitutional requirements for
president: He is not a natural-born U.S. citizen, he hasn't resided in America
for 14 years, and we're pretty sure he's under 35. What's more, after eight
years of George W. Bush, is America really going to elect another president
whose greatest selling point is that he has a famous Father?
==
The Republican War on Science [BARGAIN PRICE] (Hardcover)
by Chris Mooney (Author) 

The Party's rightist base has adopted positions that are antithetical to
science, not because they oppose science per se but because government
policies suggested by the scientific consensus threaten their religious
beliefs, their economic status, or their societal influence. 
Faith-based religions are of course philosophically opposed to science, which
is based on empirical observation.
the Republican party has had to pander to the lunatic fringe known as the
religious right, which bases its understanding of reality on poorly-written 
documents from the Bronze Age.
Instead of arguing policy after looking at the current scientific consensus,
politicians, mostly far-right and religious-right Republicans, are
manipulating the science to fit the desired policy. 
This includes "spinning" the science through misrepresentations or
distortions, magnifying uncertainty, relying on and promoting fringe
scientists and "contrarians", and putting scientific clothing on "values"
and ideology. 
I thoroughly believe that science will win out in the long run. History tells
us that it always does, and that this is not a new fight. Knowledge brought
us out of the dark ages and there's no reason not to rely on it now.
==
The Left Hand of God: Taking Back Our Country from the Religious Right
(Hardcover) by Michael Lerner (Author) 
==
Christian Fundamentalists of the "Dominionist" persuasion. These are the
evangelicals who are plotting to remake America in their own image.
They are people of "Faith" which means they already have THE ANSWERS and thus
have no need to be amenable to reason.
American Advocate president and Christian Dominionist Gary DeMar stated that
"adulterers, men engaging in homosexual acts, and abortion doctors should be
executed."
The following is noted, among other sites, on People for the American Way: On
the September 4, 1998 Armstrong Williams talk show, Colorado talk-radio
personality Bob Enyard called for the death penalty for gays and adulterers.
Additionally, a Christian radio talk-show host in Costa Mesa, California said,
"Lesbian love, (and)sodomy are viewed by God as being detestable and
abominable. Civil magistrates are to put people to death who practice these
things
Former Congressional candidate Randall Terry, who is also the former head of
Operation Rescue, extended this view of "Biblical law" to include "Biblical
slavery" and capital punishment for rebellious teenagers.
This authoritarian approach to religion feeds upon and encourages the
angriest hatred for "others" - Muslims, Jews, less militant Christians, gays,
liberals, feminists, just about anyone who does not submit to the rigid, right
wing formula of the evangelicals.
When dissent is considered treason, one is dealing with a
neo-fascist regime.
Chisto-Facism is a closed system that demands total obedience and
indoctrination into a culture of hate that demonizes all who do not "believe."
Individual are being recruited into a closed system that labels all
"non-members" to be outside the circle. As the author sums it up, this system
divides families, friends, and communities.
==
The Golden Bough by James G. Frazer  about myths
==
Now, if the founder of the Congressional Prayer Caucus, Rep. James
Forbes (R-VA), and thirty-one other Representatives succeed in lodging
their wedge by passing House Resolution 888, designating the first week
in May as "American Religious History Week," public school history
classrooms will be opened to a fundamentalist version of the "rich
spiritual and religious history of our Nation's founding and subsequent
history," however scant or however fabricated.
House Resolution 888, introduced in December 2007, purports to be about
nothing more than a recognition of America's history of religious faith.
In reality, it is an attempt by the Christian Right to rewrite the
history of the United States along the same biblical slant as their
revision of the history of life on earth.
==
Chris Hedges, author of 
"American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America"

Chris Rodda, author of "Liars for Jesus: The Religious 
Right's Alternative Version of American History,"
==
When there's a natural disaster, global-warmists invoke "climate change" to
explain it just as religious believers invoke God. The difference, of course,
being that most religious believers will concede that the Lord works in
mysterious ways, whereas global warmists insist that what they're doing is
"science."
==
Sixth century BCE pantheists Thales of Miletus and Xenophanes of Colophon
prepared the way for later Greek humanist thought. Thales is credited with
creating the maxim "Know thyself", and Xenophanes refused to recognize the
gods of his time and reserved the divine for the principle of unity in the
universe.
==
According to J. Gordon Melton of the Institute for the Study of American
Religion, Americans continue to pump out new religions at a rate of about 40
to 50 per year. All true?
==
Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past.
Do not believe what you yourself have imagined,
persuading yourself that a God inspires you.
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
==
The Portable Atheist: Essential Readings for the Nonbeliever (Paperback)
by Christopher Hitchens (Editor) 
==
In the Siberian town of Abakan, thousands of Russians have abandoned careers,
families and homes to follow the word of Sergei Torop, a former traffic cop
who claims he is Jesus Christ. His 5,000 followers have built a rural
community called Abode of Dawn out of a Siberian forest. In another rural
village in central Russia, a group of residents believe President Vladimir
Putin was an apostle in a former life and perform daily devotions.
==
I came across a medieval print in which a prisoner
has been strapped to a wooden chair, a leather hosepipe pushed down his throat
and a primitive pump fitted at the top of the hose where an ill-clad torturer
is hard at work squirting water down the hose. The prisoner's eyes bulge with
terror as he feels himself drowning, all the while watched by Spanish
inquisitors who betray not the slightest feelings of sympathy with the
prisoner. Who said "waterboarding" was new? The Americans are just apeing
their predecessors in the inquisition.
Anther medieval print I found in a Canadian newspaper in November shows a
prisoner under interrogation in what I suspect is medieval Germany . In this
case, he has been strapped backwards to the outer edge of a wheel. Two hooded
men are administering his agony. One is using a bellows to encourage a fire
burning at the bottom of the wheel while the other is turning the wheel
forwards so that the prisoner's feet are moving into the flames. The eyes of
this poor man  naked save for a cloth over his lower torso  are tight shut in
pain. Two priests stand beside him, one cowled, the other wearing a robe over
his surplice, a paper and pen in hand to take down the prisoner's words.
Anthony Grafton, who has been working on a book about magic in Renaissance
Europe, says that in the 16th and 17th centuries, torture was systematically
used against anyone suspected of witchcraft, his or her statements taken down
by sworn notaries  the equivalent, I suppose, of the CIA's interrogation
officers  and witnessed by officials who made no pretence that this was
anything other than torture; no talk of "enhanced interrogation" from the lads
who turned the wheel to the fire.
As Grafton recounts, "The pioneering medievalist Henry Charles Lea ... wrote
at length about the ways in which inquisitors had used torture to make
prisoners confess heretical views and actions. An enlightened man writing in
what he saw as an enlightened age, he looked back in horror at these barbarous
practices and condemned them with a clarity that anyone reading public
statements must now envy."
There were professionals in the Middle Ages who were trained to use pain as a
method of enquiry as well as an ultimate punishment before death. Men who were
to be "hanged, drawn and quartered" in medieval London , for example, would be
shown the "instruments" before their final suffering began with the withdrawal
of their intestines in front of vast crowds of onlookers. Most of those
tortured for information in medieval times were anyway executed after they had
provided the necessary information to their interrogators. These inquisitions 
with details of the torture that accompanied them  were published and
disseminated widely so that the public should understand the threat that the
prisoners had represented and the power of those who inflicted such pain upon
them. No destroying of videotapes here. Illustrated pamphlets and songs,
according to Grafton, were added to the repertory of publicity.
Ronnie Po-chia Hsia and Italian scholars Diego Quaglioni and Anna Esposito
have studied the 15th-century Trent inquisition whose victims were usually
Jews. In 1475, three Jewish households were accused of murdering a Christian
boy called Simon to carry out the supposed Passover "ritual" of using his
blood to make "matzo" bread. This "blood libel"  it was, of course, a total
falsity  is still, alas, believed in many parts of the Middle East although it
is frightening to discover that the idea was well established in 15th century
Europe.
As usual, the podesta  a city official  was the interrogator, who regarded
external evidence as providing mere clues of guilt. Europe was then still
governed by Roman law which required confessions in order to convict. As
Grafton describes horrifyingly, once the prisoner's answers no longer
satisfied the podesta, the torturer tied the man's or woman's arms behind
their back and the prisoner would then be lifted by a pulley, agonisingly,
towards the ceiling. "Then, on orders of the podesta, the torturer would make
the accused 'jump' or 'dance'  pulling him or her up, then releasing the rope,
dislocating limbs and inflicting stunning pain."
When a member of one of the Trent Jewish families, Samuel, asked the podesta
where he had heard that Jews needed Christian blood, the interrogator
replied  and all this while, it should be remembered, Samuel was dangling in
the air on the pulley  that he had heard it from other Jews. Samuel said that
he was being tortured unjustly. "The truth, the truth!" the podesta shouted,
and Samuel was made to "jump" up to eight feet, telling his interrogator: "God
the Helper and truth help me." After 40 minutes, he was returned to prison.
Once broken, the Jewish prisoners, of course, confessed. After another torture
session, Samuel named a fellow Jew. Further sessions of torture finally broke
him and he invented the Jewish ritual murder plot and named others guilty of
this non-existent crime. Two tortured women managed to exonerate children but
eventually, in Grafton's words, "they implicated loved ones, friends and
members of other Jewish communities". Thus did torture force innocent
civilians to confess to fantastical crimes. Oxford historian Lyndal Roper
found that the tortured eventually accepted the view that they were guilty.
==
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned
in yonder heavens!... We have imagined that God was God from all eternity.
I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 345)
==
Had there been a Lunatic Asylum in the suburbs of Jerusalem, Jesus
Christ would infallibly have been shut up in it at the outset of his public
career. That interview with Satan on a pinnacle of the Temple would alone have
damned him, and everything that happened after could have confirmed the
diagnosis. The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the
absence from Jerusalem of a Lunatic Asylum.-- Havelock Ellis
==
Huckabee and Copeland

My Talk2Action colleague Sarah Posner has a post at the American Prospect blog
about Mike Huckabee's relationship with TV evangelist and con man Kenneth
Copeland. Copeland is a mentor to Huckabee, who dropped out of divinity school
to join Copeland's ministry. Huckabee has preached at Copeland's church, even
during his campaign for president.
Posner notes that Copeland recently convened a private meeting of several
prominent evangelical leaders to raise emergency funding to keep Huckabee's
campaign afloat amid serious money problems. And she links to this article
from the Trinity Foundation, a group of evangelicals that formed after the
Bakker scandals and acts as a watchdog for TV evangelists and mega-churches
that bring in millions of dollars but rarely with any accountability.
Copeland is one of 6 ministers currently under investigation by Republican
Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa and Copeland is refusing to turn over financial
documents to his committee. He says he will refuse to do so even if a subpoena
is issued. And Huckabee is supporting him. Trinity has a video clip of Copeland
talking about how he was stonewalling the committee and Huckabee's response to
the whole thing:
"Are you kidding me? Why should I stand with them and not stand with you?
They've only got 11 percent approval rating." And then he said, "Kenneth
Copeland, I will stand with you." He said, "You're trying to get prosperity to
the people and they're trying to take it away from 'em." He said, "I will stand
with you any time, anywhere, on any issue." That settled that right there. I
said, "Yeah, that's my man! That's my man, right there."
Kenneth Copeland is trying to get prosperity for only one person: himself. He
is bleeding the prosperity from his followers with his ridiculous Word of
Faith nonsense.
==
Faith-based groups are bringing hope to pockets of despair, with newfound
support from the Federal Government.a?
- State of the Union address 2008If you saw President Bush's State of the
Union address Monday night, you already know that the president is elevating
the priority of his "faith-based initiative," which is just a euphemism for
government-funded religious discrimination. Based on this administration's
track record on religious liberty, The Interfaith Alliance believes the time
has come to abolish the faith-based initiative once and for all.
Yesterday's New York Times includes an op-edwritten by David Kuo and John
DiIulio, two former White House officials who worked on the faith-based
initiative. We have written a letter to the editor in response, and we wanted
to share that message with you.
These two former Bush Administration officials are asking the American people
to make a huge leap of faith. They claim that the faith-based initiative
funding is appropriated in an above-board manner, so the program deserves more
taxpayer dollars.
But that is not what the record demonstrates. In his tell-all book Tempting
Faith, Mr. Kuo wrote that faith-based grant applications were supposed to be
reviewed by a White House panel in a "religiously neutral fashion," but he
admits the panel's ratings were "a farce" (p. 214). One panel member told Kuo:
"When I saw one of those non-Christian groups in the set I was reviewing, I
just stopped looking at them and gave them a zero [out of a possible 100]" (p.
215). Consequently, taxpayer dollars often went to Christian groups "with
little more than a post office box" (p. 214).
==
Secular humanism is a humanist philosophy that upholds reason,
ethics, and justice, and specifically rejects the supernatural and the
spiritual as warrants of moral reflection and decision-making. Like
other types of humanism, secular humanism is a life stance focusing on
the way human beings can lead good and happy lives.
==
"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was
produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was
crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound
nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons
of Jupiter." (Justin Martyr--CHAP. XXI.--ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST )
==
http://apostasywatch.com/page3.html   bad preachers
==
Torquemada in his 20 years heading the Inquisition burned about 2,000 people.
==
http://godisimaginary.com/
==
 The Medieval Inquisition is a series of Inquisitions (Roman Catholic Church
bodies charged with suppressing heresy) from around 1184, including the
Episcopal Inquisition (1184-1230s) and later the Papal Inquisition (1230s).
It was in response to large popular movements throughout Europe considered
apostate or heretical to Christianity, in particular Catharism and Waldensians
in southern France and northern Italy. 
Torture was used after 1252. On May 15, Pope Innocent IV issued a papal bull
entitled Ad exstirpanda, which authorized the use of torture by inquisitors.
The Inquisitors were forbidden to use methods that resulted in bloodshed,
mutilation or death. One of the more common forms of medieval inquisition
torture was known as strappado. The hands were bound behind the back with a
rope, and the accused was suspended this way, dislocating the arms.
The organization is still active today under the name of the Congregation for
the Doctrine of the Faith. Prior to becoming Pope Benedict XVI, Cardinal
Ratzinger was the head of the congregation.
==
The bible was compiled under the direction of the 37th Pope, Damasus about
384 AD. It was then that the Catholic Church determined which writings were
apocryphal and which were the inspired word of God.
==
Maryland has a law saying you can be jailed for slandering the trinity.
==
Whats So Bad AboutReligion?
For the religious folks who wonder why nonbelievers care at
all about religion and why we cant we just respect believers beliefs and leave
them alone, I offer the following thoughts.
The first problem that I have with religious beliefs is that, as , acting on
the basis of false beliefs can lead
to ill-conceived, even harmful, behavior and decisions. Take, for example,
cases of snake handlers who die from snakebites, or Jehovahs Witnesses who die
for want of blood transfusions - both of which have occurred in the USA within
the past several months. One may argue that such beliefs are misunderstandings
of scriptural injunctions, but to so argue merely cedes my point. Yes, I agree,
such beliefs are misunderstandings, but those misunderstandings are founded
upon what believers have read in scriptures and they are founded upon
traditions that have been passed down to successive generations for millennia.
Quite simply, the misunderstood scriptures would not be taken so seriously, and
the errant teachings that have been transmitted through the ages would not
exist, were it not for the religious contexts that gave birth to them and
continue to nourish them.
Consider the subject of Brians post that I alluded to in the opening paragraph
of this post. In this case, a man who was suffering from mental illness heard
the voice of god telling him to slaughter his family. He responded by killing
his teen aged daughter. Fortunately, his wife was not home at the time of the
murder so she was spared. Prior to that event, the man had told members of his
church that he was haunted by demons, was hearing voices and so on. The church
people believed that the man was extraordinarily blessed to have such
experiences! The tragedies of this mans delusional beliefs and his resultant
behaviors are highlighted by the inconceivable (to me) failure of the mans
religious community to distinguish between mental illness and the leading of
gods holy spirit! Remove the shroud of religious superstition from the
communitys thought processes and the mans derangement would have been clearly
evident.
I can already hear several of the faithful protesting that Im painting all
believers with the same broad, tainted brush. Most believers are not deranged,
most believers do not handle poisonous snakes as part of their worship rituals,
and only a few believers eschew modern medicine. All of that is true, but it
doesnt change the underlying fact that theistic belief in any form is
mistaken. Even if those mistaken beliefs dont cause believers to make such
egregious errors in judgment as those noted above, they can lead to other
errors, such as susceptibility to swindling televangelists, or refusal to
believe that ones pastor is molesting Sunday school children, or the notion
that abstinence-only sex education is sufficient, or the conviction that gays
are evil. Even though the vast majority of believers apply rational thought
processes in most areas of their lives, there is a corner of their minds,
especially for religious conservatives, in which they refuse to shine the
light of reason. Every scrap of information they process is run through
religious filters. If it does not threaten to undermine the religious scaffold
around which theyve built their lives, then normal reasoning processes can be
applied safely. If a bit of information contradicts the scaffold, then it must
be rejected. Religious liberals, on the other hand, frequently bend the
scaffold so that it will accommodate new information. Whatever process one
applies, the fact remains that there are points at which reason and religion
conflict. How one handles those conflicts determines the extent to which
religious belief is harmful. Sometimes the harm is confined to believers.
Other times, however, that harm spills over and affects others, believers and
nonbelievers alike. This brings me to my second problem with religious belief.
The second problem I have with religious belief is that believers do not live
in vacuums. Their religious beliefs are not always private and those beliefs
do affect others, including me, in numerous ways. Billy wrote a great post
about this recently. To cite one example, when creationists and Intelligent
Design proponents advocate for the inclusion of their non-scientific theories
in school science curricula, in addition to hurting their own children, they
threaten to undermine my childrens education, they threaten to undermine
American progress in scientific and medical research and they threaten to
dilute the American education system and thereby weaken our nations economy.
In short, when they bring their religious beliefs into the public square and
seek to impose those beliefs on others, they threaten our livelihoods and our
well-being. Another example: when a fundamentalist presidential candidate
advocates amending the Constitution so that it conforms to an ancient book of
fables, he threatens my liberty of conscience. Cases like these and countless
others lead me to conclude that the only way I can adopt a philosophy of live
and let live is if religious believers will pledge to do the same. The moment
they open their church doors and let their ideas drip all over the pavement is
the moment they invite me, regardless of whether they intend to do so, to
examine those ideas. This leads to my third problem with religious belief.
The third problem I have with religious beliefs is the persistent entreaty
that I respect religious beliefs simply because they are religious. My
response to this demand is that Ill extend to religious beliefs the same
degree of respect that I extend to astrology or phrenology or alchemy and not
a speck more or less than that. Nevertheless, I will always strive to respect
believers, regardless of what I think about their beliefs. If believers want
their beliefs to be considered as plausible foundations of social, economic,
international, educational, or any other public policies, then I will critique
those beliefs just as scrupulously as I would critique the beliefs of a
Marxist, a Maoist, or a monarchist. Religious beliefs are simply one class of
ideas among many that have the potential to do real damage to individuals,
societies and nations (though it seems self-evident to me that false beliefs
will seldom pass muster as suitable foundations for good policy decisions).
All ideas, religious and otherwise, should be scrutinized ruthlessly before
one renders judgments regarding their soundness. Religious ideas are no more
special than any others, they are simply more widespread and more deeply
ingrained than most.
Setting aside, momentarily, the fact that religious beliefs are detrimental to
believers and nonbelievers alike, it is true that all of us hold many values,
interests and aspirations in common. These are bases upon which we can all
agree to work together for our common good. If we can agree to do so, then
maybe one day Ill be able to revise my view of religion and concede that,
perhaps, it is good for some people, though certainly not for all. Until that
happens, however, I will continue to maintain that, given current conditions,
religions bad effects far outweigh its good ones.
======
exo 22:20 "Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed. 
==
Humanist Legal Center Acts to Stop Funds for Religious
Training Camp
Washington D.C., January 24, 2008

The Appignani Humanist Legal Center sent a demand
letter today to the Secretary of the U.S. Department
of Housing and Urban Development, the Honorable
Alphonso Jackson, advising Secretary Jackson not to
follow Congress' instructions to distribute funds to a
sectarian religious group. The letter also declared
the
AHLC's intention to sue if the letter goes unanswered
and funds are allocated in violation of the
Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

"A recent spending bill passed by Congress and signed
into law by President Bush sets aside $595,000 for
Morning Star Ranch, a Christian-only evangelist
training camp," said Mel Lipman, president of the
American Humanist Association. "This is a sectarian
religious camp where no Jews need apply, nor any other
non-Christians, including humanists. Providing this
operation taxpayer dollars is a clear and outrageous
violation of the First Amendment to the U.S.
Constitution. "

According to the Morning Star Ranch website at
http://www.worldimp act.org/ministri es/camps/ msr.php,
the ranch belongs to World Impact, an evangelical
Christian mission organization, and is primarily used
for the group's "Christian Leadership Training
Program," a two-year program for "single, urban young
men, ages 18-25, who have made a commitment to
Christ." The facilities, located in Florence, Kansas,
are also "available to other Christian groups." The
earmark was sponsored by Senator Sam Brownback and
Representative Jerry Moran, both of Kansas.

The spending bill that contained the earmark in the
House-Senate Conference Report was signed into law by
President Bush on December 26, 2007.

"Religious groups aren't barred from receiving federal
funds so long as there is some guarantee that the tax
monies will be used exclusively for secular purposes,"
said Roy Speckhardt, executive director of the
American

Humanist Association. "But there is no guarantee of
that in this case, and it in fact appears as though
the federal funds will be used to repair buildings
that will be employed exclusively by Christians for a
sectarian purpose. That is why we're writing to the
Department of Housing and Urban Development, to advise
them of this problem and to stop the flow of funds for
unconstitutional purposes."

The letter asks that Secretary Jackson inform the AHLC
by Wednesday, February 6, 2008, of any money granted
to or plans to grant money to Morning Star Ranch. The
letter also informs Jackson that if word has not been
received by that date then the AHLC will seek redress
in federal district court.
==
"And that servant [slave], which knew his lord's will, and prepared not
himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with
many stripes." (Luke 12:47)
==
"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the 
study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it 
proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing 
and admits of no conclusion."
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason (1793-5)
==
According to AP reports, the archbishop, his brother and the church are being
sued by former church employee Mona Brewer, who claims that Paulk manipulated
her into an affairthat began in1989and lasted till 2003 by telling her it
washer only way to salvation. Earl Paulk admitted his sin in front of the
church last January.
==
 Num31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill
every woman that hath known man by lying with him. (KJV)
==
"Strange...a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet
preferred to make bad ones; who made them prize their bitter lives,
yet stingily cuts them short; mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness
multiplied seventy times seven and invented Hell; who mouths morals to
other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes yet commits
them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle
the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably
placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally with altogether
divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!"
--Mark Twain
==
The hebrew word for "circle" is "chuwg"...
the word for "ball" or "sphere" is "duwr"
==
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they
will believe what is false. 2 Thessalonians 2:11

God is not the author of confusion?
==
ecc 3:19  For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same;
as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no
advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
v 2ecc 9:5  For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing,
and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.
 CancelBot: rsv 2ecc 9:6  Their love and their hate and their envy have
already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is
done under the sun.

In the NT, the dead chat and remember things.
===
"For the invisible things of him [God] from the creation of the world are
clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal
power and Godhead; so that they [men who 'hold the truth in unrighteousness'
are without excuse" (Romans 1:20-22). 

Where are they clearly seen?

==
I Kings 22

22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall
at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I
will persuade him.
22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and
I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou
shalt persude him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.	  (22:22-23)
God puts a "lying spirit" in the mouth of his prophets. 

So those Bible verses saying that it is wrong to lie and that God doesn't lie
must be lies.
Is it wrong to lie?
Does God lie? 
22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of
all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. 
===
On the Jews and Their Lies, 1543
Martin Luther (1483 - 1546)
Translated by Martin H. Bertram

Part 1
I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them.
But since I learned that those miserable and accursed people do not cease to
lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this
little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous
activities of the Jews and who warned the Christians to be on their guard
against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the
Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil
is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy
task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.
==
If Hitler were not a Christian, he played the Christians as though they were a
violin.

Do American Christians of the Falwell-Robertson mentality agree with the
statement of Adolf Hitler?

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious
instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is
built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be
derived from faith ...we need believing people."

- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, speech made during negotiations leading to the
Nazi-Vatican Concordant

They probably agree with this Hitlerian intention:

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have
therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not
merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

- Adolf Hitler, Speech in Berlin, October 24, 1933

The New York Times reported on Hitler's Crusade against atheism:

"In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national
headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church
authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters.
Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have
not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church
membership. The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the
national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had
about 500,000 members..."

The New York Times, May 14, 1933, page 2, on Hitler's outlawing atheistic and
freethinking groups in the Spring of 1933, after the Enabling Act authorizing
Hitler to rule by decree

And the Associated Press:

"A campaign against the 'godless movement' and an appeal for Catholic support
were launched by Chancellor Adolf Hitler's forces."

Associated Press story, February 23, 1933

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It
points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by only a few
followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight
against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a
fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the
passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the
scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How
terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand
years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the
fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross . . . I
say: my Christian feeling tells me that my Lord and Savior is a warrior."
(Speech, Munich, Apr. 12, 1922)

"I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious
man and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws
framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver,
but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence." (Speech, July 5,
1944)

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own
denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will,
and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For
God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who
destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."
('Mein Kampf')
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By
warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work." (Speech, Reichstag,
1936)

"I do not merely talk of Christianity, no. I also profess that I will never
ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity." (Speech, Stuttgart,
Feb. 15, 1933)

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have
therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not
merely with a few theoretical declarations. We have stamped it out." (Speech,
Berlin, Oct. 24, 1933)
===
Leviticus 11:20-23 says grasshoppers and beetles have four legs.
Four Legs Good, Six Legs Bad 
==
One of the greatest strenghts of science is that it doesn't insist it has the
final answer, it is always open to further evidence. You can frame this as
saying science 'is often proven wrong', but you can (and should) say the same
thing about religion. It's just that Science allows us to adjust and understand
the bigger truth, whereas religion buries its head in the sand denying that
their 'truth' was ever wrong. 
Christians  may decry the imperfection of science or unexplained corners of
evolutionary theory, he never bothers to look in the mirror and apply all
these criticisms to his own religion, which has far more gaps and failings
than anything we see in the scientific world. Indeed, it was exactly those
failings to explain the world that provided the impetus for science, to do a
better job of explaining things than the Bible and Christianity did. And
science has far surpassed the wildest expectations of those original scientists
to do just that, and provided us with a standard of living and the ability to
manipulate time and space in ways that any medieval Pope would have considered
nothing short of Satanic magic. 
==
Pius XI referrd to Mussolini as "a man sent from God." Mussolini was an
atheist, a former Marxist, who had written an anti-clerical novel called The
Cardinal which Italian anti-Fascists translated into English and re-published
in New York in 1929.
==
exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to
you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein
shall be put to death.
==
"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was
produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was
crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound
nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of
Jupiter." (Justin Martyr--CHAP. XXI.--ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST )
==
Romans 13:1  Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for
there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities
that exist have been established by God.

Hitler?
==
Josef Goebbels was ex-communicated because he married a Protestant. 
===
The most dangerous force in the world is Christian Fundamentalism
"The American Christian right extremists want to foment a war that will lead
to Armageddon - and for them the sooner the better. " There leader is Paster
John Hagee. He wants Nuclear war and he wants it with IRAN. He has the ear of
the White House.
Few Americans understand the real reasons for the alliance between Christian
fundamentalism and the most extreme segments of right wing Israeli political
life. Grace Halsell has written an important book, "Prophecy and Politics"
(Lawrence Hill and Co) on this very subject. Halsell worked as a White House
speechwriter during the Johnson administration.
During two of Jerry Falwells Holy Land tours, the author interviewed
fundamentalist members of the Moral Majority, all of whom believed that the
biblical prophecy of fighting World War 3 must be fulfilled before Christ can
return to earth.
The cult of "Dispensationalism" spread throughout America largely through the
efforts of Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, born in 1843.
The Schofield Bible is the standard reference work in virtually all Christian
ministries and divinity schools. It is singularly responsible for the
Christian belief that the Hebrew Prophecies describe the kingdom of Jesus'
Second Coming.
....................Who Was Cyrus Schofield?.................
Article from Topeka newspaper , The Daily Capital dated August 27, 1881:
"CYRUS I. SCHOFIELD IN THE ROLE OF A CONGREGATIONAL MINISTER "
"Cyrus I. Schofield, formerly of Kansas, late lawyer, politician and shyster
generally, has come to the surface again, and promises once more to gather
around himself that halo of notoriety that has made him so prominent in the
past.
The last personal knowledge that Kansans have had of this peer among
scalawags, was when about four years ago, after a series of forgeries and
confidence games he left the state and a destitute family and took refuge in
Canada.
For a time he kept undercover, nothing being heard of him until within the
past two years when he turned up in St. Louis, where he had a wealthy widowed
sister living who has generally come to the front and squared up Cyrus little
follies and foibles by paying good round sums of money.
Within the past year, however, Cyrus committed a series of St. Louis forgeries
that could not be settled so easily, and the erratic young gentleman was
compelled to linger in the St. Louis jail for a period of six months. Among
the many malicious acts that characterized his career, was one peculiarly
atrocious, that has come under our personal notice.
Shortly after he left Kansas, leaving his wife and two children dependent upon
the bounty of his wifes mother, he wrote his wife that he could invest some
$1,300 of her mothers money, all she had, in a manner that would return big
interest. After some correspondence he forwarded them a mortgage, signed and
executed by one Chas. Best, purporting to convey valuable property in St.
Louis. Upon this, the money was sent to him.
Afterwards the mortgages were found to be base forgeries, no such person as
Charles Best being in existence, and the property conveyed in the mortgage
fictitious[vi]
--------------------------------------
Is American Foreign policy, then, based on a version of Christianity written
by a Con-Man from Kansas, Cyrus Schofield?
His belief system originates with John Nelson Darby, a 19th-century Irishman
and one-time priest in the Church of England. Dispensationalists believe that
in the Old Testament God promised the Jewish people an earthly kingdom ruled
by Messiah ben David, and that when Christ came He offered this prophesied
kingdom to the Jews. When the Jews of the time rejected Christ and the earthly
kingdom, the promise was postponed, and the "mystery form" of the kingdom - the
church - was established.
The church, according to dispensational doctrine, was unforeseen in the Old
Testament and constitutes a "parenthesis" in God's plan for Israel. In the
future, the distinction between Jew and Gentile will be reestablished and will
continue throughout all eternity. The "parenthesis", or church age, will end at
the Rapture when Christ comes invisibly to take all believers (excepting OT
saints) to heaven to celebrate the "marriage feast of the Lamb" with Christ
for a period of seven years.
Christian fundamentalists donate generously to Israel's repression of
Palestinians along with the billions in taxpayer's funds that the US sends to
Israel every year. Large contributors to Israel's unrest include oil and gas
tycoon Terry Reisenhoover, a frequent White House visitor, and "Mission to
America" Chairman Dr. Hilton Sutton; as well as Dr. James DeLoach, pastor of
Houstons Second Baptist Church. DeLoach once boasted that he and others had
formed a Jerusalem Temple Foundation specifically to aid those intent on
destroying the Dome of the Rock and muslim Al-Aqsa mosque and building a new
temple mount.
Dr. John Walvoord, who teaches at Southwestern School of Bible in Dallas,
explained the dispensationalist beliefs to Halsell: "God does not look on all
of His children the same way. He sees us divided into categories, the Jews and
the Gentiles. God has one plan, an earthly plan, for the Jews. And He has a
second plan, a heavenly plan, for the born-again Christians. The other peoples
of the world  Muslims, Buddhists, and those of other faiths as well as those
Christians not born again  do not concern Him. As for destroying planet earth,
we can do nothing. Peace, for us, is not in Gods book  ."
At a meeting of Christian Zionists in Basel, Switzerland, the group adopted
resolutions calling for all Jews living outside of Israel to leave the
countries where they are now residing and move to Israel. The Christians also
urged Israel to annex the West Bank. When an Israeli in the audience urged
more moderate language, pointing out that an Israeli poll showed that
one-third of Israelis would be willing to trade territory seized in 1967 for
peace with the Palestinians, one of the Christian leaders, van der Hoeven of
Holland, replied, "We dont care what the Israelis vote! We care what God says!
And God gave that land to the Jews!"
His latest book, Jerusalem Countdown: A Warning to the World, interprets the
Bible to predict that Russian and Arab armies will invade Israel and be
destroyed by God. This will set up a confrontation over Israel between China
and the West, led by the anti-Christ, who will be the head of the European
Union, Pastor Hagee writes. That final battle between East and West - at
Armageddon, as the actual Israeli location of Meggido is known in English -
will precipitate the second coming of Christ, he concludes.
The American Christian right extremists want to foment a war that will lead to
Armageddon - and for them the sooner the better.
According to these radical Christians the Israeli government must never be
criticized because Israel is doing God's will; but they will criticize any
Israeli government which tries to bring about peace -- witness how Rabin and
Barak were so attacked. These are the radical Dispensationalists.
The Dispensationalists believe that they will go straight to Heaven without
the pain of dying, while the rest of the human race - including Jews who don't
convert - will soon be wiped out with great suffering. In their passion for the
return of Christ, or the Rapture, these people forsake the most fundamental
Christian principles of humanity toward other human beings (and even
Christians) in the Middle East and they humiliate Muslims anywhere and
everywhere. Any policies that promote conflict and misery in the Middle East
are "good" for their own ends, because the more misery there is in the world
then the sooner they believe that Christ will return and deliver them from
evil.
Today most Dispensationalists are very insular and know very little about the
outside world, however they are a major factor in US foreign policy under Bush.
As an example of Dispensationalism in the Bush administration, NSC Near East
and North African Affairs director Elliot Abrams sat down with the Christian
fundamentalist Apostolic Congress in an attempt to massage their theological
concerns. Claiming to be "the Christian Voice in the Nation's Capital," the
members vociferously oppose the idea of a Palestinian state. They fear an
Israeli withdrawal from Gaza may enable just that, and they object on the
grounds that all of Old Testament Israel belongs to the Jews. Until Israel is
intact and Solomon's temple rebuilt, they believe, Christ won't come back to
earth.
Abrams attempted to assuage their concerns by stating that "the Gaza Strip had
no significant Biblical influence such as Joseph's tomb or Rachel's tomb and
therefore is a piece of land that can be sacrificed for the cause of peace."
Three weeks after the confab, President George W. Bush reversed long-standing
U.S. policy, endorsing Israeli sovereignty over parts of the West Bank in
exchange for Israel's disengagement from the Gaza Strip.
[This above text contains excerpts from "Understanding Fundamentalism " From
SourceWatch ]

John Hagee says 40 million Americans back his views and the interpretation of
the bible according to Schofield.

The deaths of millions of IRANIAN people will be no concern of John Hagee. Its
Gods will.

The die is now cast. Mendacity will run rampant about IRAN in the American
media as it did on the run up to the war with IRAQ.

Iran has done nothing to America, or for that matter, Israel. Threats to
Israel have been invented by the media and will continue to be until Iran is
destroyed, demonized to the "n th" degree, like Iraq.

The Iranians don't stand a chance. America will go down in history as a nation
that based its foreign policy on a version of American Christianity written by
a Con Man who spent time in prison, Cyrus I. Schofield from Kansas.

Mr. Hagee and his band of fanatics won't rest until the world is destroyed
according to there delusions and those of 40 million "Born Againers" who
believe, it is Gods well to kill everyone on the planet except them.

I guess they never read the part in the Bible that talks about "God is Love"

For Schofield Christianity, "God is Death"
==
Although Hindus follow no single set of rules, reverence for cows can be found
throughout the religion's major texts. Some trace the cow's sacred status back
to Lord Krishna, one of the faith's most important figures. He is said to have
appeared 5,000 years ago as a cowherd, and is often described as bala-gopala,
"the child who protects the cows." Another of Krishna's holy names, Govinda,
means "one who brings satisfaction to the cows." Other scriptures identify the
cow as the "mother" of all civilization, its milk nurturing the population.
==
Creation stories
1. One in which Eve is created at the same time as Adam [Genesis 1:27], 
and another where she is grown from his rib [Genesis 2:22]. 

The names of cities are often followed by the then-contemporary 
name of the same place‹just so the audience knows what's being 
referred to. "Now it's called so and so." Clearly, Moses, the 
supposed writer of this, was not aware of what cities would be 
called hundreds of years after his death and would not write of 
their names in the present tense. Another example is found in the 
names of characters in the book of Ruth‹each based on puns of words 
contemporary to the hearers, but having nothing to do with the 
language of those being stereotyped and dissed by these plays on words.
==
You have seen
enough evidence, yourself, to believe in God.  I have not.  From your
perspective, God knows what evidence it took to convince you and he
knows what evidence it would take to convince me.  Either he's playing
favorites, a notion I find morally offensive and I should hope you would
as well, or there are problems with your basic assumptions.
===
Poll finds more Americans believe in devil than Darwin
More Americans believe in a literal hell and the devil than Darwin's theory
of evolution, according to a new Harris poll released on Thursday.
It is the latest survey to highlight America's deep level of religiosity, a
cultural trait that sets it apart from much of the developed world.
It also helps explain many of its political battles which Europeans find
bewildering, such as efforts to have "Intelligent Design" theory -- which
holds life is too complex to have evolved by chance -- taught in schools
alongside evolution.
The poll of 2,455 U.S. adults from Nov 7 to 13 found that 82 percent of those
surveyed believed in God, a figure unchanged since the question was asked in
2005.
It further found that 79 percent believed in miracles, 75 percent in heaven,
while 72 percent believed that Jesus is God or the Son of God. Belief in hell
and the devil was expressed by 62 percent.
Darwin's theory of evolution met a far more skeptical audience which might
surprise some outsiders as the United States is renowned for its excellence in
scientific research.
Only 42 percent of those surveyed said they believed in Darwin's theory which
largely informs how biology and related sciences are approached. While often
referred to as evolution it is in fact the 19th century British intellectual's
theory of "natural selection."
There are unsurprising differences among religious groups. 
===
A tiny fraction of the hundreds if not thousands of
inconsistencies &/or contradictions in the Bible:

http://www.infidels .org/library/ modern/donald_ morgan/inconsist encies.html

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then
separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day)
wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was
created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was
created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was
created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were
created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same
time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime
later.

GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following
childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin.
(Note: The period for purification following the birth
of a daughter is twice that for a son.)

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent
with the concept of omniscience. )

GE 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already
known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) much earlier
than the time of Moses.
EX 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or
Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during
the life of Moses.

GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the
forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

GE 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to
tell good from evil.
HE 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good
from evil.

GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard
for Cain's.
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality.
He treats all alike.

GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is
everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from
his view.

GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a
consuming fire.
EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God
is a jealous god.
LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG
14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes)
murder and killing.
NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11,
78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry.
His anger is sometimes fierce.
2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard
my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ...
because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils.
Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals
blazed out of it."
EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He
reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies.
"... who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His
fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown
down by him."
2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love.
GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love,
joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness,
gentleness and self-control.

GE 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of
the Lord.
JE 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills
heaven and earth.

GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.
GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan
were annihilated by the Flood.
NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.

GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God
does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change
his mind.

GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be
taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken
(and are taken) aboard the Ark.

GE 7:1 Noah was righteous.
JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous.
LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.
JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their
prayers effective).
1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they
are not really Christians).
RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.

GE 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark.
GE 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?).

GE 11:7-9 God sows discord.
PR 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord.

GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of
the whole world.
1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of
confusion.

GE 11:12 Arpachshad [Arphaxad] was the father of
Shelah.
LK 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad
was the grandfather of Shelah.

GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was
born.
GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making
Abram 135 at the time).
GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This
was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no
more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years
old after he had lived 135 years.

GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3,
24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8,
9:1 God is seen.
EX 33:20, JN 1:18, 1JN 4:12 God is not seen. No one
can see God's face and live. No one has ever seen him.

GE 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the
Tower of Babel.
GE 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower
of Babel.

GE 15:9, EX 20:24, 29:10-42, LE 1:1-7:38, NU
28:1-29:40, God details sacrificial offerings.
JE 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing.

GE 16:15, 21:1-3, GA 4:22 Abraham had two sons,
Ishmael and Isaac.
HE 11:17 Abraham had only one son.

GE 17:1, 35:11, 1CH 29:11-12, LK 1:37 God is
omnipotent. Nothing is impossible with (or for) God.
JG 1:19 Although God was with Judah, together they
could not defeat the plainsmen because the latter had
iron chariots.

GE 17:7, 10-11 The covenant of circumcision is to be
everlasting.
GA 6:15 It is of no consequence.

GE 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an
"everlasting possession." GE 25:8, AC 7:2-5, HE 11:13
Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled.

GE 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half
sister, Sarai, are married and receive God's
blessings.
LE 20:17, DT 27:20-23 Incest is wrong.

==
Gleeson's Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulities.

http://www.talusmusic.com/Bible
==
If one looks at earlier, pre-historic religion from an historical
and scientific perspective, it is clear that in pre-history all
human knowledge was bound up in fairly simple myths. The myths
were the general compendium of knowledge of the time. They
combined the most primitive beginnings of the art, science,
religion, identity, philosophy, culture, and so on of the people.
These primitive belief systems are often presented as religion,
but they were much more than that. Over the ages the different
spheres of knowledge separated out: art, science, religion, law,
and so forth, became independent areas of study.
The genesis of all these pursuits is in primitive times, with
early humanity and its dawning conception of itself. The first
bit of real thinking our distant ancestors did must surely have
been to distinguish themselves from the world. It wouldn't have
been too long till they had personalised the things they
distinguished around themselves: the beginnings of pantheism and
ultimately of all religion. Thought developed and progressed
along with growing human mastery of nature; thinking improved the
mastery, and the improved mastery gave rise to new things to
think about. There, in embryo, is the essence of the scientific
method: theory and practice.
Early humans, conscious of their emotions within themselves, must
have located the causes of their emotions within those objects
which stimulated the emotions. The emotion, because of its
vividness, must have seemed like the soul, the essence, of the
thing. For instance, force, the kinaesthetic sensation of
muscular effort, has up to quite recently dominated the thought
of science, and yet expresses this primitive animistic way of
regarding nature. But emotions are experienced as being within
the individual and therefore they seem controllable. Thus, it
was a short step for primitive people to imagine that they could
dominate reality by generating the emotions proper to the desired
effect, through charms, ceremonies, and magic.
nothing, and holding a permanent existence, separate from magic,
religion, philosophy, or art. Magic gives birth to science, for
magic commands reality to conform to laws, and when reality
refuses to do so, its stubborn nature is impressed upon the
magician. Magicians do not try to walk on water with spells, or
if they do they fail. Rain makers are only found in places where
it rains from time to time. No magician makes spells for a
winter harvest, only for a good summer one.
As time passed, the absurd ambitions and beliefs of the magicians
were modified as humanity set itself more and more elaborate
tasks. When magic succeeded, it did not do so by magic, and when
it failed it was defeated by 'fate', the inexorable determinism
of things. Gradually, the mystical beliefs of the shamans, and
the impossible hopes of the alchemists, gave way to consciousness
of determinism, and magic gave way to science.
scientific, artistic, and other disciplines which now exist,
evolved.
Thus, all of our vaunted science, our incredible technology, our
none too good social organisation, our poetry, music, literature,
drama, cinema, and so on, are the products of a developmental
process. I stress process. None of these things emerged fully
formed, nor are their present manifestations fixed for all time.
They emerged from the struggle of humanity to change the world.
They are not so much the result of contemplation, as of action.
In every sphere action gives rise to thought, which in turn gives
rise to further action. In the physical sciences this process
has been distilled into a tool for learning about nature which is
unrivaled in its effectiveness: theory and practice. This
effectiveness is the result, not so much of the superiority of
the physical sciences over the other branches of knowledge, but
rather the greater possibilities which exist in our investigation
of nature to experiment, to control variables, and so to learn.
Such possibilities are less in other areas of human activity,
but still the basic way of advance is the same: observe what is
going on, form a notion of what is causing it, develop an idea of
how things could be changed, try it out, and see the result.
Thus, also, our knowledge of ourselves, our activity, our social
organisation, and our place in nature is growing and maturing.
This is the way humanity works slowly out of the fog of illusion
inherited from the past, and toward a better understanding of
reality. In particular, it begins to understand itself, and
discovers its own real essence. When humans begin to grasp the
real essence of their own humanity they can dispense finally with
the myth of God. God is then revealed as the fantastic reflection
in human minds of humanity's own true reality, until then hidden
in illusion.
Christianity
The christianity which exists today has been inherited from Rome,
Alexandria, and Judea.
The first christians were mainly people who laboured and were
burdened, members of the lowest strata of society. They
consisted of all kinds of impoverished free persons from the
towns, emancipated slaves, unfree slaves, small peasants who were
falling into bondage because of debt, and so on. These people
had no common road to emancipation, and for all of them their
paradise lay lost behind them.
This condition, which affected many people, was the result of
Roman domination, which had put an end to the smaller unions of
tribes, and which had, through the imposition of taxation and the
establishment of a tax collecting machinery, dissolved
traditional forms of organisation. The people had lost
independence, were forcefully plundered by Roman civil and
military authority, and were falling into bondage to usurers.
Resistance to the gigantic Roman power was useless.
The only way out of this predicament was to be, for many people,
a religious one. Christianity grew out of this melting-pot,
offering salvation in the world beyond for the just, and
punishment for the unjust. Only with the promise of a reward in
the next life could the Christian mixture of stoic-philonic
renunciation of the world, and asceticism, be exalted to the
basic moral principle. A new world religion began to develop
because it could inspire the masses with enthusiasm. The
Philonic school of Alexandria and Greco-Roman vulgar philosophy
had an enormous influence on the development of Christianity
Religion in general is merely the ideological framework within
which humanity expresses certain ideas about the world. It has a
history, which can be stuied by science, as described above. The
history of religion deals with particular manifestations of
religious belief. Religion shows tremendous variation, and may
become intimately bound up with questions which have merely a
local application. This has been often the case in regard to the
development of national identity, and struggles against imperial
domination.
In the long run, the religious world view is in decline and is
being replaced by a more scientific and humane one. This is a
long-term process, and in the main depends, not on voluntarist
belief, but on developments in the real, material, social
conditions of lif
===
Article in Scientific American September 1999 by Edward J. Larsen and Larry
Witham titled What Scientist Think About God in which it is indicated that the
greatest concentration of atheist in the US is in the National Academy of
Science. It appears that these post doctoral fellows of the NAS do not share
the view that the universe had a creator.
==
Galileo also took the new invention of the telescope, refined it,
and used it to look at the night sky. He was astounded. On the
moon he could see mountains and valleys. It wasn't just some
strange heavenly object; it was probably made out of the same stuff
as Earth. Galileo looked at Jupiter, and discovered that it had
four moons orbiting it. If moons orbited Jupiter, then not
everything orbited the Earth, as the Catholic Church taught at the
time. Astronomy made more sense if the Earth and planets orbited
the sun. After writing a book about this, Galileo was called to
Rome in 1633, and told to recant his heretical ideas.

This was no "simple request" by the Church. Just 33 years before,
the Catholic Church had executed Galileo's friend Giordano Bruno.
How many of you have heard of him? In 1600, the Christian
authorities in Rome took him out of the jail he had been in for
eight years, drove a nail through his tongue, tied him to a metal
post, put wood and some of his books under his feet, and burned him
to death. Bruno's crime was writing ideas that the Catholic leaders
didn't like -- there might be other worlds with other intelligent
beings on them, Jesus didn't possess God-like power, and souls can't
go to heaven. For these heretical ideas, the Catholic Church
punished this bold and brilliant thinker with a slow, agonizing
death.

Galileo knew what he was up against. The church could torture or
even execute him. So, he recanted. Even after recanting, he was
still sentenced to house arrest for the rest of his life. But, you
know, even as powerful as the Church was, they could not hold back
the tidal wave of scientific discovery, and the Catholic Church
eventually lost its battle over our view of the universe. In 1992,
after 12 years of deliberations, they grudgingly admitted that
Galileo had been right in supporting the theories of Copernicus.
But no such admission has been made for Bruno, and his writings are
still on the Vatican's list of forbidden texts.

Until just a couple of hundred years ago, most people used to think
that the gods controlled everything. Why did the wind blow? Why
was there lightning and thunder? Why did the sun, moon, and stars
apparently go around the Earth? Why did someone get sick and die?
Why did anything happen? Well, obviously, God did it. If we don't
know how something works or why something happened, then God did
it. This is known as the God of the Gaps, or the argument from
ignorance, and it is at the heart of the conflict between science
and religion. As we understand more and more about the universe,
the gap where God might exist grows smaller and smaller. Every time
we learn more, God has less room to operate. When we learned what
caused the sun to apparently move across the sky, there was no need
for the Greek god Helios and his chariot. When we understood what
caused lightning, there was no need for the Greek god Zeus, the
Roman god Jupiter, or the Norse god Thor.

In fact, the understanding of lightning was one of the first areas
of battle between modern science and religion. When Ben Franklin
discovered that lightning was just a big electric spark, he invented
the lightning rod. It was enormously successful at preventing
buildings from being struck by lightning. However, this caused a
bit of a problem for the church leaders; should they trust in God to
prevent lightning strikes on their churches, or should they use
these new lightning rods? Up until then, lightning hit churches
much more frequently than other, more deserving buildings  such as
taverns or houses of ill repute. "Why was that?" they wondered.
Could it be that churches had spires and were taller, or was it
SATAN and his WITCHES?  Actually, that is what they often
believed, and many a supposed witch was burned at the stake for
having caused the destruction of a church. When they started
putting lightning rods on churches, witch burnings stopped soon
thereafter. However, the obvious fact is that they were putting
their trust in science and lightning rods, not religion and prayer.
==
Early Christians never used the cross
Although a stake called a stauros (the Greek term used in the
earliest Bible writings but where English versions incorrectly
translate it to "cross" ) got used to execute criminals, there
exists not a scrap of evidence that a Biblical stauros describes a
cross or even a T shape. If a Jesus died by execution, mythically or
historically, we have nothing to indicate that anyone crucified him
with outstretched arms on a cruciform structure.
There occurs no cross in early Christian art before the middle of
the 5th century, where it (probably) appears on a coin in a
painting. The first clear crucifix appears in the late 7th century.
Before then artifacts almost always depict Jesus as a fish or a
shepherd, never on a cross.
The first known conception of a Christian cross as a physical symbol
began with Constantine's supposed 4th century conversion as a
Christian. He allegedly had a miraculous vision in the sky of a
cross composed of light with the inscription, "By this conquer." The
Church father, Eusebius, described that, at night after his vision,
Constantine dreamt that God commanded him to make a likeness of the
sign to safeguard all engagements with the enemy. At dawn the next
day Constantine allegedly told this to his army and ordered the
symbol to be made in the form of a golden spear with a transverse
bar (some traditions describe it as the Greek letter "X" (chi) with
a "P" (rho) through it, the well-known monogram of Jesus). From then
on Christian armies carried the cross symbol into battles.
Christians who deny this story cannot escape the fact that the story
derives from Euesbius's own writings and church fathers after him
used this to support the symbol of the cross. Later on, and
especially during the crusades, the cross became a permanent part of
the uniform of a soldier. Thus the army of Christianity invented the
symbol of the cross to symbolize battle (a spear) to represent Jesus
and to protect their killers (the army). Christianity has remained a
religious and political justification for war and violence ever
since.
Any Christian who prays to a cross or wears one goes unwittingly
flaunting, not only an unsupported historical assertion, but born as
a war symbol from a blood-thirsty Roman ruler who forced orthodox
Christianity onto the world.
==
Many times, scientists or scholars of the 19th and 20th centuries
have made discoveries, only to find that the Bible had previously
mentioned those same concepts:
Hydrologic cycle- Ecclesiastes 1:7, Isaiah 55:10
Evaporation- Psalm 135:7, Jeremiah 10:13
Principle of Isostasy- Isaiah 40:12, Psalm 104:5-9
Shape of the Earth- Isaiah 40:22, Psalm 103:12
Rotation of the Earth- Job 38:12,14
Gravitation- Job 26:7,38:6
Number of stars- Genesis 22:17, Jeremiah 33:22
Uniqueness of each star- 1 Corinthians 15:41
Circulation of atmosphere- Ecclesiastes 1:6
Fluid dynamics- Job 28:25
Blood circulation- Leviticus 17:11
Biogenesis and stability- Genesis 1:11,21,25
Chemical nature of flesh- Genesis 1:11,24-2:7; 3:19
Mass-Energy equivalence- Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3
Atomic disintegration- 2 Peter 3:10

Hydrologic cycle- Ecclesiastes 1:7, Isaiah 55:10

Well, Ecc says, "All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea [is] not full;
unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again." This
does seem to reflect the hydrological cycle, but I have to wonder whether it's
really all that amazing an observation. Does he really think that the ancients
were too stupid to notice that rivers didn't run out and the sea didn't fill
up, but had to be told? The Afar River of Ethiopia rums into the desert
and dries up.

Isaiah says, "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven,
and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring
forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:"

Er, what cycle? It says the waters don't return here! This is not only
contrary to fact and your assertion of what it claims, but also to the other
passage you cited!

Evaporation- Psalm 135:7, Jeremiah 10:13

Does he really think that nobody noticed evaporation until the 19th century?
The Psalm in question also mentions God keeps wind in "treasuries". Does he
really think that the wind is kept in storehouses and then released? Funny
ow the bits they like are absolutely literal, while the rest is instantly
just poetry, all based on whether it turned out to be true or not.

Oddly enough, the Jeremiah entry repeats exactly the same phrasing, making
me wonder why he bothered to repeat himself.

Principle of Isostasy- Isaiah 40:12, Psalm 104:5-9

As far as I know, the principle of isostasy refers to the way gravity changes
across the surface of the earth. The Isaiah chapter simply mentions measuring
some things, the psalm that we probably won't get a world wide flood again.
What any of this has to do with anything, only he knows.

Shape of the Earth- Isaiah 40:22, Psalm 103:12

Actually, Isaiah says that the earth is a disk, not a sphere, and the Psalm
says nothing about the shape of the earth at all, only that east and west
are separated (which actually makes little sense on a sphere). Perhaps he
thinks the Bible is right because it says the Earth is flat, just like
he knows it is!

Rotation of the Earth- Job 38:12,14

The King James version says, "It is turned as clay [to] the seal; and
they stand as a garment." Well, it does use the word "turn", I suppose.
Interestingly, absolutely no translation except the King James mentions
"turning" at all. Everyone else interprets this as indicating that the
deal was sealed, nothing to do with turning of the earth at all. Don't
believe me? Check out:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/versions/993099355.html#14

Gravitation- Job 26:7,38:6

Yes, he actually thinks nobody noticed gravity until the 19th century!
Hey, I'm pretty sure that the ancients might have noticed that, in
general, things fall down! Do you really consider this a revelation
that only an omniscient God could have produced?

Actually, Job 26:7 doesn't mention gravity at all, but says
"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the
earth upon nothing." Um,  don't "stretching out the north" kind of
suggest a flat earth to you? What is the north of a sphere stretched
out over? Oh, nevermind.

Job 38:6 isn't any better, and doesn't seem to mention gravity either.
It does suggest the earth is built on foundations and ponders what they
are attached to. You know, I'd have thought satellites would have
cleared that up by now.

Number of stars- Genesis 22:17, Jeremiah 33:22

Genesis: "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will
multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is]
upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"

And Jeremiah isn't any better.

Okay, do you really think there are as many people as stars? Do you really
see any numeration of stars here at all? What can we determine from these?
That there are, maybe, I don't know, say, lots of stars. Lots? Is that the
best you can do for a prediction? Yeah, nobody could possibly have told that
there were lots of stars until the Bible told them so!

Uniqueness of each star- 1 Corinthians 15:41

Gee, that's some prediction. I mean, it's not like everyone was already
giving them unique names or anything...

Circulation of atmosphere- Ecclesiastes 1:6

"The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it
whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according
to his circuits."

Sorry, but this contradicts the other part of the Bible where we find
winds are stored in storehouses. That part was literal, this mere poetry.

Fluid dynamics- Job 28:25

"To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure."

Huh? How is this predicting the complicated calculus theory that is
fluid dynamics? Or perhaps he thinks "fluid dynamics" means "water can be
measured".

Blood circulation- Leviticus 17:11

"For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you
upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood
[that] maketh an atonement for the soul."

Nothing about circulation here. Is he really impressed by this? Does
he really think that the ancients might not have noticed that if you lose
enough blood you die?

Biogenesis and stability- Genesis 1:11,21,25

Golly, those ancients couldn't possibly have noticed that plants make seeds
that make the same plants without God now could they!

Up to now, he has just been expressing his low opinion of the ancient's
intelligence. Now he goes off the deep end. If any of the following
had really been predicted, I would have actually been really impressed.

Chemical nature of flesh- Genesis 1:11,24-2:7; 3:19

Er, lots of stuff about reproduction "after it's kind' and such, nothing
about chemicals or even flesh, really. Sorry. Have you actually read
the Bible?

Mass-Energy equivalence- Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3

Colossians: "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
Er, yeah, I see what you mean. Quite a revelation here! Mass and energy
are equivalent because everything was made by God. Using that logic,
elephants and horses are the same thing as well! The Hebrews entry isn't
any better. Again, there's nothing here about mass or energy.

Atomic disintegration- 2 Peter 3:10

It says elements will melt with heat. And it doesn't mean chemical
elements even, just "aspects of the world". Nothing about atomic decay,
certainly no useful predictions. Do tell me when you can make Atomic
disintegration by melting something. You could get a Nobel prize for that.
==
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm
Key Excerpts:
"... Pagan spirituality in ancient times was composed of two
components:
o The Outer Mysteries consisted of Pagan beliefs and practices
which were widely disseminated and taught to the general public.
Knowledge of these has been preserved in historical records.
o The Inner Mysteries were revealed only to those who had
been initiated into the Pagan religions. The initiates learned that
simple 'spiritual allegories encoding spiritual teachings.'
---
Late in the 4th century CE, Christianity was established as the
state religion. Pagans were given the choice of converting to
Christianity, being exterminated or being exiled. Their temples
were either stolen for use as Christian churches, or destroyed.
Eventually, detailed knowledge of the inner mysteries was lost.
The core of the Outer and Inner mysteries was a mythical,
male entity who was part god and part human -- often referred
to as a 'godman.' The biographies of these godmen were
consistent from religion to religion. The main difference
among the faiths was his name ...
o Alexandria: Aion
o Asia Minor: Attis
o Babylonia: Antiochus
o Egypt: Osiris
o Greece: Dionysus, Asclepius
o Syria: Adonis
o Italy: Bacchus
o Persia: Mithras
These were viewed as mythical characters. There were also some
self-proclaimed godmen -- humans who actually lived on earth.
Two are:
o Samos, Italy: Pythagoras (569 to circa 475 BCE)
o Sicily: Empedocles (circa 450 to 390 BCE)
---
been found recorded in pyramid texts which were written prior
to 2,500 BCE.
These saviors were truly interchangeable. Coins have been found
with Dionysus on one side and Mithras on the other. A person
who was initiated into one of the mysteries had no difficulty
switching to another Pagan mystery religion.
In the 3rd century CE, these godmen were referred to by the
composite name 'Osiris-Dionysus.' Authors Timothy Freke
and Peter Gandy have used this term in their book 'The Jesus
Mysteries.'
---
Life events shared by Osiris-Dionysus and Jesus:
The following stories appear both in the Gospels and in the
myths of many of the godmen:
Conception:
o God was his father. This was believed to be literally true
in the case of Osiris-Dionysus; their God came to earth and
engaged in sexual intercourse with a human. The father of
Jesus is God in the form of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).
o A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.
Birth:
o He was born in a cave or cowshed. Luke 2:7 mentions that
Jesus was placed in a manger - an eating trough for animals.
An early Christian tradition said that the manger was in a cave.
Ministry:
o At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting
water into wine.
o He was powerless to perform miracles in his home town.
o He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records
that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.
o He had 12 disciples.
o He was accused of licentious behavior.
Execution, resurrection, etc:
o He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.
o He died 'as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.'
o He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross.
o After death, he descended into hell.
o On the third day after his death, he returned to life.
o The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female
followers.
o He later ascended to heaven.
o God made flesh.
o Savior of the world.
o Son of God.
Beliefs about the Godman:
o He is 'God made man,' and equal to the Father.
o He will return in the last days.
o He will judge the human race at that time.
o Humans are separated from God by original sin. The
godman's sacrificial death reunites the believer with God
and atones for the original sin.
All of the Pagan myths had been circulating for centuries before
Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). It is obvious that if any copying
occurred, it was the followers of Jesus incorporating into his
biography the myths and legends of Osiris-Dionysus, not
vice-versa.
---
Life events shared by Jesus and one other godman:
Some stories appear both in Jesus' biography and in the legends
of a single godman:
Mother's pregnancy:
o It was a common belief among early Christians that Mary was
pregnant for only seven months. This legend is preserved in the
Gospel of the Hebrews. Although this gospel was widely used
by early Christians, it was never accepted into the official canon.
Semele, mother of Dionysus, was also believed to have had
a 7 month pregnancy.
Virgin birth:
o Author William Harwood has written that Jesus' "equation
in Greek eyes with the resurrected savior-god Dionysus led
an interpolator to insert a virgin-birth myth into the gospel now
known as Matthew."
Birth Witnesses:
o The gospel of Matthew records that Jesus was visited by an
unknown number of wise men, called Magi.
- Freke & Gandy identify them as followers of the godman
Mithras from Persia.
- Most other sources believe that they were Zoroastrian priests
from Persia who were experts in astrology. There is a Zoroastrian
belief 'that a son of Zoroaster will be born many years after his
death by a virgin...This son will apparantly [sic] raise the dead
and crush the forces of evil. Later Christians got rather excited
about this apparant [sic] pagan prophecy of the coming of the
Messiah...'
o The gospel of Luke records that Jesus was visited by three
shepherds. Mithra the godman from Persia was also visited
shortly after birth by three shepherds.
o The magi brought gold, frankincense and myrrh. A Pagan
belief from the 6th century BCE states that these are the
precise materials to use when worshiping God.
Healing:
o Jesus is recorded throughout the gospels as healing the
sick and restoring the dead to life. So was Asclepius, a
Greek godman. Pagans and early Christians debated who
was the more effective healer.
Ministry:
o Jesus appeared as a wandering holy man who is later
transfigured in the presence of some of his disciples.
Dionysus was portrayed in the same manner in Euripides'
play The Bacchae, written in 410 BCE.
Miracles:
o Both Jesus and Empedocles were recorded as teaching
spiritual truths, curing illness, foretelling the future, controlling
the wind and rain, and raising people from the dead.
o Both Mithra and Jesus performed many healings of the sick
and mentally ill; both raised the dead.
o Mark, chapter 5 describes Jesus driving demons from a man
into a herd of about 2,000 pigs who rushed over a cliff and
drowned. In Eleusis, about 2,000 initiates would bathe in the
sea. Each had a young pig to which the believers' sins would
be transferred. The pigs were then chased over a chasm and
killed.
Fishing:
o John 21:11 records that Jesus performed a miracle which
enabled Simon Peter to catch exactly 153 fish. The Pagan
Pythagoras considered 153 a sacred number. The ratio of
153 to 265 was referred to by the Pagan Archimedes as
'the measure of the fish.' That ratio is used to generate
a fish-like shape using two circles. The sign of the fish
was used by the early Christians as their main symbol.
Arrest:
o Both celebrated a Last Supper with his 12 disciples
before his death.
o Dionysus is described in Euripides' play The Bacchae
as bringing a new religion to the people, being plotted
against by the leaders, being arrested and appearing
before the political ruler. Dionysus said to his captors
'You know not what you are doing..,'" almost replicating
Jesus' words at the cross. He was unjustly accused and
executed. All of these themes are seen in the Gospels.
Crucifixion & resurrection:
o An ancient Greek amulet has been preserved from the
3rd century CE. It shows a man being crucified on
a Roman cross. The caption reads 'Orpheus Bacchus'
one of the pseudonyms of Osiris-Dionysus. A photograph
can be seen at Amazon.com:
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0722536763.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
o Jesus' body was wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh
and aloe. Osiris was also said to have been wrapped in linen
and anointed with myrrh.
Again, the godmen myths had been circulating well before
Jesus birth. The Christians would have copied earlier Pagan
material, not vice-versa.


On Osirus' death and ressurection:
"In his passion, Osiris was plotted against and killed by Set and "the
72." This is a combination of terminological fudging, half-truth, and
irrelevancy. There was no "passion" -- in the incident alluded to, O.
was indeed plotted against by Set. There was a big party, at which Set
had a coffin brought in and encouraged everyone, including 72
participants in the scheme and one queen of Ethiopia, to lay down for
a fit. Finally it came O's turn, and he was persuaded to lay down in
the coffin. Once O was inside, Set nailed the coffin shut and threw it
in the river; O suffocated. Note that the 72 here are enemies of O,
not his disciples: only the number -- a multiple of 12, a number we
still hold in regard today when we purchase eggs and donuts -- is a
common touchpoint (and that only in some mss. of Luke 10; others put
the number at 70, possibly representing the number of Gentile nations,
according to the Jews). They do nothing at all that could be
considered like what Jesus' disciples did. As the story goes further,
O's wife Isis went looking for the coffin. She found it in Syria,
where it had been incorporated into the pillar of a house. She
lamented so loudly that some kids in the house died of fright. Later
she took it out, opened it up, then went looking for Horus. Meanwhile
Set found the coffin and tore the body in 14 pieces which he threw all
over the place. In one result Isis went looking for the pieces and
buried them as she found them. An alternate story has Isis, Anubis,
and Ra piecing the body together, swathing it with bandages, and
reviving him -- more on this below.
Osiris' resurrection served to provide hope to all that they may do
likewise and become eternal. This is where we find some of the biggest
misuse of terminology, including by some Egyptian scholars of religion
(who do not go on to posit a "copycat" relationship!). Osiris
resurrected? Not if "resurrection" is defined as coming back in a
glorified body. On this point Miller has done some substantial work,
reporting the words of J. Z. Smith, so I will let these speak to
begin:
"Osiris was murdered and his body dismembered and scattered. The
pieces of his body were recovered and rejoined, and the god was
rejuvenated. However, he did not return to his former mode of
existence but rather journeyed to the underworld, where he became the
powerful lord of the dead. In no sense can Osiris be said to have
'risen' in the sense required by the dying and rising pattern (as
described by Frazer et.al.); most certainly it was never considered as
an annual event."
"In no sense can the dramatic myth of his death and reanimation be
harmonized to the pattern of dying and rising gods (as described by
Frazer et.al.)."
"The repeated formula 'Rise up, you have not died,' whether applied to
Osiris or a citizen of Egypt, signaled a new, permanent life in the
realm of the dead."
Frankfort concurs:
"Osiris, in fact, was not a 'dying' god at all but a 'dead' god. He
never returned among the living; he was not liberated from the world
of the dead, as Tammuz was. On the contrary, Osiris altogether
belonged to the world of the dead; it was from there that he bestowed
his blessings upon Egypt. He was always depicted as a mummy, a dead
king." [Kingship and the gods: a study of ancient Near Eastern
religion as the integration of society & nature. UChicago:1978
edition, p.289]
Perhaps the only pagan god for whom there is a resurrection is the
Egyptian Osiris. Close examination of this story shows that it is very
different from Christ's resurrection. Osiris did not rise; he ruled in
"What is meant of Osiris being Iraised to life?' Simply that, "
thanks
to the ministrations of Isis, he is able to lead a life beyond the
tomb which is an almost perfect replica of earthly existence. But he
will never again come among the living and will reign only over the
dead. This revived god is in reality a Imummy' "
god."... No, the
mummified Osiris was hardly an inspiration for the resurrected
Christ...As Yamauchi observes, "Ordinary men aspired to identification
with Osiris as one who had triumphed over death." But it is a mistake
to equate the Egyptian view of the afterlife with the biblical
doctrine of resurrection. To achieve immortality the Egyptian had to
meet three conditions: First, his body had to be preserved by
mummification. Second, nourishment was provided by the actual offering
of daily bread and beer. Third, magical spells were interred with him.
personalityhis Ba and Kacontinued to hover over his body. "
["The
MacLeod, in The Emmaus Journal, V7 #2, Winter 98, p169"
---
... Freke & Gandy have concluded that the original, main
Christian movement was Gnostic Christianity.
They kept their inner mysteries secret, revealing them only
to those who have been initiated into the faith.
Some early non_Gnostic, 'literalist' Christians were unaware
of the inner mysteries of Gnosticism. They came to accept
the Gnostic outer mysteries and their myth of a godman
savior as an actual description of the historical Jesus. The
literalist Christians, being ignorant of the inner mysteries,
did not realize that the godman story was only a legend
about a mythical being. Decades later, literalist Christianity
became the dominant movement. They oppressed and
exterminated the Gnostics. ..."
==
Job is written in the style of morality plays of the 2nd century BC, though the
characters treated in it are from a much more ancient story (probably from
around the time of Abraham).
==
The great ecclesiastical historian, Eusebius, heads chap. xxxi of
Book 12 of his Evangelical Preparation thus: "HOW FAR IT MAY BE PROPER
TO USE FALSEHOOD AS A MEDICINE, AND FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE WHO
REQUIRE TO BE DECEIVED." And he undertakes to defend the propriety of
using falsehood by appealing to pretended examples in the Old
Testament. Origen avowed the same principle (Mosheim's Dissertations,
p. 203). Bishop Horsley, in his controversy with Dr. Priestley, states
the same fact. At page 160, he says, "Time was, when the practice of
using unjustifiable means to serve a good cause was openly avowed; and
Origen himself was among its defenders." Chrysostom, Bishop of
Constantinople, defended the same doctrine (Mosh. Diss., p. 205).
Gregory of Nazianzen (A.D. 360-390), surnamed "the Divine," says, "A
little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The
less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and
doctors of the Church have often said, not what they thought, but what
circumstances and necessity dictated to them." Synesius (A.D.
400-420), Bishop of Ptolemais, says, "The people are desirous of being
deceived. We cannot act otherwise respecting them." And a little
further on he says, "For my own part, to myself I shall always be a
philosopher; but in dealing with the mass of mankind I shall be a
priest" (Cave's Eccl. p. 115). St. Jerome (A.D. 380) says, "I do not
find fault with an error which proceeds from hatred towards the Jews,
and pious zeal for the Christian faith" (Opera, iV p. 113). Mosheim
"especially includes in the same charge" Ambrose (A.D. 270), Bishop of
Milan, Hilary, Bishop of Poitiers, and Augustine (A.D. 400), Bishop of
Hippo, "whose fame," says Mosheim, "filled, not without reason, the
whole Christian world. We would willingly," he adds, "except them from
this charge; but truth, which is more respectable than these venerable
fathers, obliges us to involve them in the general accusation." Dr.
Chapman, in his Miscellaneous Tracts, p. 191, says, "The learned
Mosheim, a foreign divine, and zealous advocate for Christianity, who
by his writings has deserved the esteem of all good and learned men,
intimates his fears, that those who search with any degree of
attention into the writings of the fathers and most holy doctors of
the fourth century will find them all, without exception, disposed to
lie and deceive whenever the interests of religion require it." The
learned Dodwell, in a work published by him, "abstains from producing
more proofs of ancient Christian forgeries," "through his great
veneration for the goodness and piety of the fathers." What a strange
and inconsistent reason was this!" - Universalist Book of Reference,
p. 359.
==

June 17th marks the fortieth anniversary of the U.S. Supreme Court
decision in ABINGTON TOWNSHIP v. SCHEMMP and MURRAY v. CURLETT that
ended mandatory, coercive prayer and Bible verse reading in the public
schools. Atheist Madalyn Murray filed one of the suits -- and made
legal history for nonbelievers!
It is, without question, one of the landmark decisions in American
jurisprudence.
On June 17, 1963, the U.S. Supreme court voted 8-1 against laws
permitting Bible reading and prayer recitation in public school
classrooms.
The ruling came in a combined case filed by litigants from
Pennsylvania and Maryland. It generated public outcry from religious
and political leaders who denounced the high court, and warned that
America was turning its back on nearly two centuries of legal and
cultural tradition. In subsequent years, critics argued from pulpit
and podium that every conceivable social problem -- from juvenile
delinquency to drug abuse, violence and the "breakdown" of the
American family -- could be traced back to that day in 1963.
Making the decision especially incendiary was that one of the cases,
MURRAY v. CURLETT was filed by an Atheist woman named Madalyn Murray.
She had initially brought suit in response to a section of the "Rules
of the Board of School Commissioners in Baltimore City," adopted in
1905 which read:
"Opening Exercises. Each school, either collectively or in classes,
shall be opened by the reading, without commend, of a chapter in the
Holy Bible and/or the use of the Lord's Prayer."
Few groups, including a number of "separationist" and civil liberties
organizations were even willing to consider taking Murray's case. The
prospect of openly supporting an Atheist -- let alone one who was an
outspoken and assertive woman -- was frequently met with hostility,
even in progressive political circles of that era. She did find some
support, from miniscule "freethought" and "rationalist" clubs
scattered throughout the country such as the Friendship Liberal League
in Philadelphia, and the National Liberal League in New York. Many of
these groups were, Ms. Murray would later write, "afraid to openly
identify (themselves) as Atheists," and were often headed by "old men
... who were concerned that it was a woman who was attempting to
challenge prayer."
Other factors contributed to the hostility against Madalyn Murray and
her decision to challenge mandatory religious exercise in public
schools. In 1960, as her case was in its beginning stages, she lost
her job as a social worker with Baltimore's Department of Public
Welfare. Her immediate supervisor informed her that she had "brought
disgrace" to that City with so strong a Roman Catholic heritage. She
had, after all, sued John N. Curlett (the President of the municipal
school board) and other members of that government body.

The nation was still in the midst of what came to be known as the Cold
War era. The World War II alliance between America and the Soviet
Union had collapsed; and Atheism -- indeed any display or
irreligiosity -- was often incorrectly identified with "godless
Communism."  Public profession of religion became a badge of
patriotism. Congress responded by passing several laws, including a
requirement that appointees to the federal judiciary swear an oath of
belief in a deity. Another legislative intiative altered the national
currency, replacing the national motto "E Pluribus Unum" ("Out of
Many, One") with the religious slogan "In God We Trust."
There had been earlier efforts to challenge the practice of unison
prayer recitation in the public schools and other abuses of
state-church separation. In DOREMUS v. BOARD OF EDUCATION (1952),
members of the United Secularists of America contested school prayer
but their petition was rejected by the Supreme Court.
Ironically, three federal cases in 1940, 1941 and 1943 brought by
members of the Jehovah's Witnesses sect held to create judicial
guidelines for the separation of government and religion; and these
decisions would have ramifications two decades later as suits like
MURRAY v. CURLETT, ABINGTON TOWNSHIP v. SCHEMPP, and ENGEL v.
VITALE wound through the courts.
In 1947, EVERSON V. BOARD OF EDUCATION examined a New Jersey statute
which reimbursed parents sending their children to parochial schools
for the cost of bus transportion. While the court narrowly upheld the
practice 5-4, it nevertheless set important standards for subsequent
First Amendment cases. Government could not, in the words of Justice
Hugo Black, "establish religion."
He wrote:
"The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means
at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a
church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all
religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor
influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his
will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in religion. No
person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious
beliefs or disbeliefs. .. In the words of Jefferson, the "wall of
separation between Church and State.'  "
Courts remained divided, over the "height" of Jefferson's wall
especially when it involved issues such as financial aid to religious
institution, or the equally volatile issue of school prayer.
In 1962, the Supreme Court decided the first major prayer case with a
7-1 ruling in ENGEL v. VITALE. Students at a New York high school,
aided by the American Civil Liberties Union, filed suit against a
state law requiring the recitation of a "nonsectarian" prayer at the
beginning of the classroom day. This was known as "The Regents
Prayer," since it had been composed by a committee of the State Board
of Regents as part of their "Statement on Moral and Spiritual Training
in the Schools."
It read:
"Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy
blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our country."
Presumably, the prayer was sufficiently vague and "nondenominational"
so as to offend no particular religious group or believer -- Atheists
were ignored -- and pass constitutional muster. Attorneys General of
twenty-two states filed Amicus ("friend of the court") briefs urging
affirmance of the statute. A number of separationists and
representatives from the American Jewish Committee, ACLU and American
Ethical Union urged the Court to strike down the law.
In the ENGEL decision, the justices noted, "There can be no doubt that
New York's state prayer program officially establishes the religious
beliefs embodied in the Regents' prayer."  They furthermore observed
that a policy of giving pupils who object to the recitation an option
to remain silent or leave the room "ignores the essential nature of
the program's constitutional defects."
In the MURRAY v. CURLETT case, the issue involved, in part,
recitation of the so-called Lord's Prayer presumably delivered by
Christ in the Sermon on the Mount. The relevant passage from the King
James, or Protestant version of the New Testament read:
"Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed by thy name; Thy Kingdom
come; Thy will be done in earth as in heaven. Give us this day our
daily bread, And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And
lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is
the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen. (Matt.
6:9-13)
The Roman Catholic rendition of the same prayer found in the Douay
Version was different, and omitted everything after the word "evil."
"Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our supersubstantial bread.
And forgive our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil.
Amen."
(Matt.6:9-13)
Years later, Ms. Murray wrote:
"Across the nation in laws, codes, and regulations in thousands of
school districts, it was the Lord's Prayer (not just prayer) that was
ordered to be recited. The religious hated me for attacking that
hallowed prayer. They hated me with a vengeance, and across Baltimore
I was the subject of many sermons, from many religious podiums, in
many churches ... I was particularly maligned in the Roman Catholic
churches of the city.
"The 'liberal' elements of the nation, all of whom refused to be of
assistance, were furious because I based my dissent to prayer in
Atheism... I -- as an Atheist -- insisted that the prayers were
inappropriate because there was no god to whom they could be
addressed."
A related case was working its way through the legal system in
Pennsylvania. It had been brought by the family of Ed Schempp, a
Unitarian, and sought to overturn a state law providing for the
reading of ten verses from the Bible each class day in the public
schools. Different school districts could pick and choose which
version of the Bible to use.
Ellory Schempp, who attended Abington High School contested the
readings from the Bible, and refused to participate in the recitation
of the Lord's Prayer. He testified in court that he rejected such
religious notions as the Immaculate Conception (the impregnation of
Mary, the alleged mother of Jesus Christ while still keeping in tact
her virginity), the divinity of Jesus, or the notion of the Trinity.
The Schempps also declared that "doctrines" set forth in a literal
reading of the Bible were "contrary to the religious beliefs which
they held and to their familial (religious) teaching."
In the U.S. District Court for Eastern Pennsylvania, a three-judge
panel ruled for the Schempp family and declared that the state law was
unconstitutional. The reading of the Lord's Prayer in classes was "a
religious ceremony," that "constituted an establishment of religion
and interference with the free exercise of religion."  Determined to
preserve the practice, however, the Abington Township School District
decided to appeal the case.
Unlike MURRAY, the SCHEMPP case -- being brought by a religious family
-- attracted immediate support from groups like the American Jewish
Congress and the ACLU. State legislators responded by amending the
Pennsylvania statute in hopes of preserving the exercise of Bible
verse recitation. An amendment to the law provided: "Any child shall
be excused from such Bible reading, or attending such Bible reading,
upon the written request of his parent or guardian."  By presumably
rendering the activity "voluntary," the state hoped that this
religious ritual would continue to remain part of the school day.
After yet another court hearing, the Schempp case was finally entered
into the Supreme Court docket as No. 142.
Earlier in Baltimore, the MURRAY case had evolved from a challenge to
a local school board rules into a suit seeking to prevent enforcement
of Art. 77, Sec. 202 of the Annotated Code of Maryland. That was
necessitated when the original Board of Education guidelines -- thanks
to the unusual alacrity of the Maryland legislature -- were changed in
order
to salvage the prayer by allowing dissenting parties to opt out. Ms.
Murray
held steadfast in her conviction that the prayer ritual
"voluntary" or otherwise, still violate the constitutional separation
of church and state, and the civil rights of Atheists. In the
Maryland Court of Appeals, however, judges voted 4-3 to affirm the
lower court ruling upholding the constitutionality of the statute.

Mrs. Murray had, by now, established a fund-raising group known as the
Maryland Committee for the Separation of Church and State. It
received no major donations or support from the leading separationist
and liberal "cause" groups of the day. Few such organizations dared
to support an Atheist woman challenging a blatant constitutional
abuse. With the exception of the $1,000 contribution from the
National Liberal League, Mrs. Murray's case funding came from speaking
honorariums and small contributions from hundreds of supporters
throughout the country. With their help -- and the stubborn
determination of the Murray family to see the case through -- the
MURRAY v. CURLETT case was placed on the U.S. Supreme Court docket
as No. 119.
The Supreme Court occasionally will join or `"combine" cases that deal
with similar constitutional concerns, and did so with the ABINGTON
TOWNSHIP v. SCHEMPP and MURRAY v. CURLETT suits. Arguments took
place on February 27 and 28, 1963. The judgment in the combined cases
was announced on June 17, 1963. The Supreme Court affirmed the lower
court ruling in No. 142 (SCHEMPP) and reversed on No. 119, MURRAY v.
CURLETT. The 12-page decision (374 U.S. 208) authored by Justice Tom
Clark was announced as SCHOOL DISTRICT OF ABINGTON TOWNSHIP,
PENNSYLVANIA et al., Appellants v. Edward Lewis SCHEMPP et al.
William J. Murray III, etc. et al., Petitioners, v. John N.
CURLETT, President, et al., Individually and Constituting the Board of
School Commissioners of Baltimore City.
Schools Ignore Court, Separation
The decision generated banner headlines across the country. In
Baltimore, the Evening Sun newspaper announced, "Supreme Court Bans
Required Bible Reading, Prayer In Schools."  Political and religious
leaders spoke out against the finding, and according to Associated
Press and other news reports, literally "thousands" of public schools
continued the unconstitutional practice when the school year resumed.
Silent "meditation" replaced most of the unison prayer recitation in
New England, but there were cases of open defiance. At the North
Brookfield (Mass.) High School, for instance, students were herded
into an assembly and forced to read aloud from the Book of Psalms and
recite
the Lord's Prayer at a special assembly.
On Capitol Hill and in state legislatures across the nation, outraged
-- and often publicity hungry -- lawmakers rushed to introduced
legislation to amend the Constitution or permit some form of "silent
prayer," "meditation," or "voluntary" religious exercise in the
schools.

For their roles in combating mandatory school prayer, both the Schempp
and Murray families paid a high price. Ms. Murray's outspoken and
often confrontation role as an "aggressive Atheist," and an "uppity
woman" made her fair-game for the media. Life Magazine, without
conducting a scientific survey, pronounced her "the most hated woman
in America."  The family became the target of telephone threats, hate
mail, and physical violence. Those menaces would linger for 32 years,
up to the time that Madalyn Murray O'Hair, her son Jon Garth and
granddaughter Robin Murray O'Hair were kidnapped and murdered in an
extortion plot.
There would be disputes over everything from the nomenclature of the
historic case, to the effects it brought to American society."
Frank Zindler, Editor of American Atheist Magazine noted in the
Summer, 1998 edition of that publication:
"Animus against Atheists -- and Madalyn Murray in particular -- ran so
high 35 years ago that even the Supreme Court itself seems to have
indulged in a spiteful act in the very process of publishing its
decision. Despite the fact that the MURRAY case had been an earlier
docket number than the SCHEMPP case (119 v. 142) and presented oral
argument earlier (Feb. 27 vs. Feb 27-28, 1963), the Murray name was
expunged from the legal records by the simple artifice of combing the
MURRAY case with the SCHEMPP case and referring thereafter to the
combined cases as ABINGTON SCHOOL DISTRICT v. SCHEMPP rather than
MURRAY v. CURLETT -- as priority would require..."
Religious and political critics would blame the 1963 decision, and the
earlier ruling in ENGEL v. VITAL for a host of hyperbolic ills. Drug
abuse, teen pregnancy, violence and other trends in a rapidly changing
social landscape would be traced back to the seven Supreme Court
justices, the Schempps, Murray and others who had "kicked god out of
our classrooms."  Efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution and permit
some form of "voluntary or "student led" prayer continue to this day.
Subsequent rulings which forbid the display of the Ten Commandments or
other religious icons in public schools, the distribution of Bibles in
classrooms and other forms of invasive and proselytizing religion were
lumped with the 1963 cases and cited as additional examples of how
"America has turned its back on God."
A Victory For Separation, Atheist Civil Rights
All of the Supreme Court cases in the early 1960s, from ENGEL v.
VITALE to ABINGTON and MURRAY helped to strengthen America's tradition
of separation of church and state. Other court challenges would
follow in pursuit of that same goal.
In COLLINS v. CHANDLER UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT (1981), the Ninth U.S.
Circuit Court of Appeals, citing the precedent set in the 60s cases,
found prayer at school assemblies to violate the constitutional
separation of church and state. "Silent prayer," yet another ruse to
smuggle religion into the public school class day, was struck down in
the 1985 WALLACE v. JAFFREE decision. The year before in MAY v.
COOPERMAN, the Third Circuit Court had disallowed the same practice.
In JAGER v. DOUGLAS COUNTRY SCHOOL DISTRICT, prayer at public
footballs game invocations was declared unconstitutional in a 1992
suit before the Eleventh Circuit. A similar case arose later in SANTA
FE SCHOOL DISTRICT. And in 1992, the high court struck down
clergy-led graduation invocations in LEE v. WIESMAN.
The roots of these, and other cases, go back four decades or more, to
the precedents found in ENGEL, ABINGTON and MURRAY. All of those
1960-era disputes came at a time when it was not easy to take a public
stand for the First Amendment, whether one was religious or an
Atheist. Pursuing those cases required courage, tenacity, and
confidence in one's philosophical convictions.
For Atheists, MURRAY v. CURLETT remains a special example, however.
It was the first time than an Atheist openly litigated on behalf of
civil rights, going beyond the traditional arguments on behalf of
"religious freedom."  Years later, Madalyn Murray O'Hair pointed out
that despite her victory in the highest of the land, only Justice
Potter Stewart in his dissenting opinion even mentioned the rights of Atheists:
==
http://www.journalofbiblicalstudies.org/Issue4/Articles/
dating_early_christian_gospels.htm
There are two writers who at first glance appear to be potentially
useful for determining which (canonical) gospels were in
circulation by the early second century. First, it appears possible
letters around 110 C.E. In various passages, Ignatius seems to allude
to the gospel, although he does not mention it explicitly. Most of
these passages, however, are vague references at best and could easily
be the result of oral tradition. Also, careful examination of the
Matthew-Ignatius parallels reveals an interesting trend. Ignatius has
an overwhelming preference for material found in Matthew, but not the
other synoptics. This excessive familiarity with special M
material has suggested to some that Ignatius may have known a source
of Matthew rather than the gospel itself.
Second, Papias of Hierapolis mentioned writings by Matthew and Mark in
his five volume Oracles of the Lord Explained around 130 C.E. However,
his comments, known only second-hand through Eusebius, "Logia in the
Hebrew dialect" is too vague to be a certain reference to the
canonical text (Eusebius, Hist. eccl. 3.39.16). Further ambiguity
surrounds Papias' comments about Mark. Papias states only that Mark
Yet, it is difficult to believe that so carefully constructed a
narrative as Mark could have been regarded as a mere chaotic
collection of unordered notes. Further, Papias does not actually
state that these notes were the canonical gospel (nor does Eusebius
imply that he did). Thus, it is not certain that Papias was
describing either canonical Matthew or Mark in the excerpts of Eusebius.
All early gospels, then, were written sometime between the death of
Jesus and the second half of the second century. Three gospels[37]
must have been written after 70 C.E.; how long after is anybody's
guess. Two gospels must have been written before the end of the
first half of the second century C.E.; how long before is anybody's
guess. With such chronologically distant boundaries, it is little
wonder that scholars have come up with such divergent dates of origins
for early gospels. The dates are based on nothing more concrete than
each scholar's impression of precisely when small stories, sayings, or
phrases might or might not have been meaningful to a particular writer
or community. There is considerable room for differences of opinion
with such subjective analysis.
==
In the book of Matthew, he will see that the writer of this Gospel went out of
his way to tie an event in the life of Jesus to Old Testament prophecies, yet
in telling about the triumphal entry, he said nothing at all about Daniels
prophecy. Instead, he chose to relate the event to a dubious prophecy in
Zechariah. How likely is it that a writer who was truly inspired of God and
obviously interested in prophecy fulfillment would have made such an oversight
as this?
===
There are numerous cases of societies in which the armies of the
night have ridden triumphantly over minorities in order to establish
a powerful orthodoxy which dictates official thought. Invariably, the
triumphant ride is toward long-range disaster. Spain dominated Europe
and the world in the 16th century, but in Spain orthodoxy came first,
and all divergence of opinion was ruthlessly suppressed. The result
was that Spain settled back into blankness and did not share in the
scientific, technological and commercial ferment that bubbled up in
other nations of Western Europe. Spain remained an intellectual
backwater for centuries.In the late 17th century, France in the name
of orthodoxy revoked the Edict of Nantes and drove out many thousands
of Huguenots, who added their intellectual vigor to lands of refuge
such as Great Britain, the Netherlands, and Prussia, while France was
permanently weakened.
In more recent times, Germany hounded out the Jewish scientists of
Europe. They arrived in the United States and contributed
immeasurably to scientific advancement here, while Germany lost so
heavily that there is no telling how long it will take it to regain
its former scientific eminence. The Soviet Union, in its fascination
with Lysenko, destroyed its geneticists, and set back its biological
sciences for decades. China, during the Cultural Revolution, turned
against Western science and is still laboring to overcome the
devastation that resulted.
Are we now, with all these examples before us, to ride backward into
the past under the same tattered banner of orthodoxy? With
creationism in the saddle, American science will wither. We will
raise a generation of ignoramuses ill-equipped to run the industry of
tomorrow, much less to generate the new advances of the days after
tomorrow."
In doing so, hasten the time when more enlightened nations
in Europe and elsewhere start to use the USA as a source of cheap, if
uneducated, labour, dotting the landscape with branch plants and
manipulating the politics from outside (there are signs of this
"There are numerous cases of societies in which the armies of the
night have ridden triumphantly over minorities in order to establish
a powerful orthodoxy which dictates official thought. Invariably, the
triumphant ride is toward long-range disaster. Spain dominated Europe
and the world in the 16th century, but in Spain orthodoxy came first,
and all divergence of opinion was ruthlessly suppressed. The result
was that Spain settled back into blankness and did not share in the
scientific, technological and commercial ferment that bubbled up in
other nations of Western Europe. Spain remained an intellectual
backwater for centuries.In the late 17th century, France in the name
of orthodoxy revoked the Edict of Nantes and drove out many thousands
of Huguenots, who added their intellectual vigor to lands of refuge
such as Great Britain, the Netherlands, and Prussia, while France was
permanently weakened.
In more recent times, Germany hounded out the Jewish scientists of
Europe. They arrived in the United States and contributed
immeasurably to scientific advancement here, while Germany lost so
heavily that there is no telling how long it will take it to regain
its former scientific eminence. The Soviet Union, in its fascination
with Lysenko, destroyed its geneticists, and set back its biological
sciences for decades. China, during the Cultural Revolution, turned
against Western science and is still laboring to overcome the
devastation that resulted.
Are we now, with all these examples before us, to ride backward into
the past under the same tattered banner of orthodoxy? With
creationism in the saddle, American science will wither. We will
raise a generation of ignoramuses ill-equipped to run the industry of
tomorrow, much less to generate the new advances of the days after
tomorrow. and in doing so, hasten the time when more enlightened nations
in Europe and elsewhere start to use the USA as a source of cheap, if
uneducated, labour, dotting the landscape with branch plants and
manipulating the politics from outside (there are signs of this
==
Encyclopeadia Brittanica
Transubstantiation, in Christianity, the change by which the substance
(though not the appearance) of the bread and wine in the Eucharist becomes
Christs Real Presence--that is, His body and blood. In Roman Catholicism
and some other Christian churches the doctrine, which was first called
transubstantiation in the 12th century, aims at safeguarding the literal
truth of Christs Presence while emphasizing the fact that there is no
change in the empirical appearances of the bread and wine.
The doctrine of transubstantiation, elaborated by scholastic theologians
from the 13th to the 15th century, was incorporated into the documents of
the Council of Trent (1545-63). The faith in the Real Presence as brought
about by a mysterious change antedates the scholastic formulation of the
doctrine, as is shown by the use of equivalent terms in the patristic
riters. In the mid-20th century some Roman Catholic theologians were
restating the doctrine of Christs eucharistic presence. Shifting the
emphasis from a change of substance to a change of meaning, they coined
the terms transsignification and transfinalization to be used in preference
to transubstantiation. But, in his encyclical Mysterium fidei in 1965,
Pope Paul VI called for a retention of the dogma of transubstantiation
together with the terminology in which it has been expressed.
===
Book of Daniel]
It is now recognized, however, that the writer's knowledge of the exilic times
was sketchy and inaccurate. His date for the fall of Jerusalem, for example, is
wrong; Belshazzar is represented as the son  of Nebuchadrezzar and the last
king of Babylon, whereas he was actually the son of Nabonidus and, though a
powerful figure, was never king; Darius the Mede, a fictitious character
perhaps confused with Darius I of Persia, is made the successor of Belshazzar
instead of Cyrus
-Encyclopedia Britannica.

1. KING Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in the third year of Jehoiakim
(Dan. 1:1).
2. The 3rd year of Jehoiakim would have been 605 BC, which was the first
year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign. (Get a reference book and check it.)
3. There are no biblical or extrabiblical records of a siege that
Nebuchadnezzar laid against Jerusalem in 605 BC. Both biblical and
extrabiblical records show that he besieged Jerusalem in 597, which was the
eighth year of his reign (2 Kings 24:12). However, since you are an
inerrantist, you must argue that Nebuchadnezzar did lay siege to Jerusalem
in the first year of his reign, because this is what Daniel 1:1 claims.
4. Daniel 1:2 claims that Nebuchadnezzar brought back to Babylon vessels
from the temple in Jerusalem.
5. Captives are not mentioned in this verse, but if Nebuchadnezzar did not
bring back the captives at this time, i.e., the first year of his reign,
when according to Daniel's claim he besieged Jerusalem in the third year of
Jehoaikim (which would have been Nebuchadnezzar's first year), then just
when were these captives taken to Babylon? Were they taken before
Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem?
6. If we grant that Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in the first year of
his reign (as Daniel 1:1 claims), then how could Judean captives have
already been in training when KING Nebuchadnezzar issued his decree in
verses 3-6, which I will quote again to refresh your memory.
So if you are going to stick to this claim of yours that Daniel and his
friends could already have been in training when Nebuchadnezzar issued this
decree, explain how these captives had been taken to Babylon before
Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem in his FIRST year.
--
Alexander the Great, in order not to have his communications with
Greece cut off, wished to have the Phoenician fleet at command; the
other Phoenician cities submitted. Tyre stood a seven month's
siege, the Cyprians blockading the northern harbour, and the
Phoenicians the southern harbour, so that Alexander was enabled to
join the island to the mainland by a vast artificial mole constructed
of the ruins of mainland Tyre remaining after Nebuchadnezzar's siege;
while Carthage, through internal commotions, was unable to help the
mother city. The conqueror slew 8,000 of the brave defenders,
crucified 2,000 in revenge for the murder of some Macedonians, and
sold into slavery 30,000 of the inhabitants.

Many Christians who think they have found the one true way also believe they
are in a very small minority. This verse in Matthew seems to support this
belief --
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it.
(Matthew 7:14)
This verse seems to imply that there will not be
many people saved. This truth is also echoed
in another place in the Bible --
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that
be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter
in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you,
will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(Luke 13:23,24)

Tyre did build herself a strong hold" (Zech 9:3); so Diodorus
Siculus (xvii. 40), "Tyre had the greatest confidence, owing to her
insular position, fortifications and abundant stores." A DOUBLE WALL,
150 FT. HIGH, besides the sea, secured island Tyre. "Her merchants
were princes, and her traffickers the honourable of the earth" (Isa
23:7-8).
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)
1998 by Biblesoft)
Ezekiel said Tyre would never be found again.Ezek.26:20-21

Ezekiel 26:14:
I will make you a bare rock; you shall be a place for the spreading of nets;
you shall never be rebuilt;
In 585-573 (B.C.) Tyre successfully withstood a prolonged siege by the
Babylonian king Nebuchadrezzar II" - New Encyclopedia Britannica.
(Micropedia,
Vol. 10, 1978, p. 223.
The neo-Babylonian conqueror, Nebuchadnezzar II, subjected the island to a
13-year siege (585-572) without success  Nebuchadnezzar did capture the
mainland suburb of Tyre, but he never succeeded in taking the island part,
which was the seat of Tyrian grandeur. Encyclopedia Americana (vol 27, 1984)p.
Alexander then left the city which was half burnt, ruined, and almost
depopulated. The blackened forms of two thousand crucified soldiers bore
ghastly witness to the completeness of the conquest. The siege had lasted from
the middle of January till the middle of July, 332 B.C. The city did not lie
in ruins long. Colonists were imported and citizens who had escaped returned.
The energy of these with the advantage of the site, in a few years raised the
city to wealth and leadership again.
Tyre was in a flourishing condition in the days of Jerome (340 CE - 420 CE).
He (Jerome) finds difficulty in reconciling Ezekiel's prophecy with the
condition of the city in his own time. Speaking of its noble port that
received ships coming from the deep and the fact that the city was a mart for
many nations.
Her walls were rebuilt as well:
http://www.middleeast.com/tyre.htm
the Crusaders until 1124. He destroyed half of it:
Tyre fell in 332 BC and Alexander, enraged at the dogged resistance of Tyrians
which had caused heavy Greek losses, destroyed half the city. The city's 30000
citizens were massacred or sold into slavery.
- Lonely Planet Guide to Lebanon, Ann Jousiffe, 1st Edition, Lonely Planet
Publications, February 1998. ISBN 0 86442 350 0,p. 209
Ezekiel 26:14:
I will make you a bare rock; you shall be a place for the spreading of nets;
you shall never be rebuilt; for I the LORD have
Now, why don't you point out for us the restrictions you place on the text?
2. As I have already shown, Tyre did regain its glory.

Her harbors weren't choked up after Alexander as noted above and the Sidonian
harbor isn't choked up now: http://www.middleeast.com/tyre.htm
Tyre Today   http://tyros.leb.net/tyre/
Under the Romans?
During the early Principate, Tyre, although deprived of its freedom by
Augustus, not only possessed a very large territory, but ranked as one of
three or four major imperial Mediterranean ports, becoming the headquarters of
Rome's eastern navy and the base of a major merchant fleet that maintained
offices at Rome  and
Petiole- A Guide To The Ancient World, Michael Grant, ISBN 0-8242-0742-4

- A Guide To The Ancient World, Michael Grant, ISBN 0-8242-0742-4
Worse is the fact that the mainland settlement was called by a different name:
The mainland city had a distinct name, which appears as Ushu in
Akkadian texts and Uzu in Egyptian texts. Capture of the mainland city
permitted conquerors to claim the capture of Tyre; the island city resisted
sieges by Shalmaneser V, Sennacherib, Esarhaddon, Ashur-bani-pal, and
Nebuchadnezzar, and was FIRST taken by Alexander" (McKinney's Dictionary of
the Bible, 1977, pp. 904-905).
Mainland Tyre, whose real name was Ushu, had been overrun before the time of
Ezekiel. In 672 BC, for example, Esarhaddon, king of Assyria, determined
to punish Tyre for allying itself with Egypt, besieged Tyre
unsuccessfully. He captured Ushu and cut off the water supply to Tyre,
which was able to use its naval resources to break the
blockade.  Esarhaddon, needing to turn his attention to rebellion in
who reigned as Assyria's last king from 668-626 BC, almost a century before
Ezekiel's prophecy against Tyre, continued his father's plan to reconquer
Egypt. In 668 BC, he also besieged Tyre, but with no better luck than his
father, and had to turn his attention to an uprising in Arabia. When the
uprising was quelled, he returned to Tyre and punished the inhabitants of
Ushu by destroying the city and deporting the survivors to Assyria.
In other words, Ushu had been easy pickings for the superpowers of the
time, who had their designs set on Tyre. They could capture Ushu but could
not take the island stronghold of Tyre.
==
However, the Egyptians had been worshipping a single god
called Aten since at least 1450 BCE and Atenism became the state
religion of Egypt when Akhenaten came to the throne in about 1360 BCE.
The similarities between Aten and Yahweh are remarkable and it is fairly
certain that one developed from the other.
The Old Testament makes Moses the law giver and the introducer of the
single god, but he was very likely just regurgitating Atenism. There is
little about any god or religion that is entirely new as man has always
adapted previous gods, religions and moral codes when inventing a new
god or religion.
==
Empires like Babylonia formed from the conquest and
annexation of surrounding tribes and nations, so when an area was
assimilated into an adjoining kingdom, the soldiers of the conquered
nations served the greater empire. The Assyrian empire, for example,
crumbled when the combined forces of the Medes, Babylonians, and Scythians
plundered Assur in 614 B. C. and Nineveh in 612. When Haran fell to these
allied forces in 610 and then Carchemish in 605, most of the Assyrian
territory was annexed by Babylon. In such cases, defeated armies swore
allegiance to their conquerers.
==
Daniel 1:1 says that Nebuchadnezzar BESIEGED Jerusalem in the third year
of Jehoiakim, which would have been in 605 BC, and there is no evidence of
any kind to substantiate Daniel's claim that a siege of Jerusalem occurred at
that time.
When continental Phonicia was reduced, it was easy to impress a fleet from
maritime towns; to
man it, in part with Phonicians, in part with Babylonians, no mean sailors,
and then to establish a blockade of the isle. Tyre may more than once have
crippled and dispersed the blockading squadron; but by a moderate
expenditure fresh fleets could be supplied, while Tyre, cut off from
Lebanon, would find it difficult to increase or renew her navy. There has
been much question whether the island city was ultimately captured by
Nebuchadnezzar or no; but even writers who take the negative view admit that
it must have submitted and owned the suzerainty of its assailant. The date
of the submission was B.C. 585.
Phonicia under the Babylonian rule was exceptionally weak. She had to submit
to attacks from Egypt under Apries, which fell probably in the reign of Baal
over Tyre, about B.C. 565. She had also to submit to the loss of Cyprus
under Amasis, probably about B.C. 540, or a little earlier, when the power
of Babylon was rapidly declining. She had been, from first to last, an
unwilling tributary of the Great Empire on the Lower Euphrates, and was
perhaps not sorry to see that empire go down before the rising power of
Persia. Under the circumstances she would view any chance as likely to
advance her interests, and times of disturbance and unsettlement gave her
528 or 527 she seems to have enjoyed one of these rare intervals of
autonomy. .....Alexander the Great, took Tyre only after a long and hard
siege (333-332 BC) making one of the most dramatic of antiquity.
Check also:
The Siege of Tyre
In 332 BC Tyre resisted Alexander the Great in a siege of just under eight
months. This was one of the greatest seiges of antiquity. An account of the
siege is given by Arrian. Arrian (Flavius Arrianus) was a Greek historian,
philosopher, and general, born in Nicomedia in Bithynia. He was also
governor of Cappadocia under Emperor Hadrian and in A.D. 134 repulsed an
source on Alexander the Great.....................
About 8,ooo of the Tyrians were killed; and of the Macedonians, besides
Admetus, who had proved himself a valiant man, being the first to scale the
wall, twenty of the shieldbearing guards were killed in the assault on that
occasion. In the whole siege about 400 Macedonians were slain. Alexander
gave an amnesty to all those who fled for refuge into the temple of
Heracles; among them being most of the Tyrian magistrates, including the
king Azemilcus, as well as certain envoys from the Carthaginians, who had
come to their mother-city to attend the sacrifice in honour of Heracles,
according to an ancient custom. The rest of the prisoners were reduced to
slavery; all the Tyrians and mercenary troops, to the number of about
30,000, who had been captured, being sold. Alexander then offered sacrifice
to Heracles, and conducted a procession in honour of that deity with all his
soldiers fully armed. The ships also took part in this religious procession
in honour of Heracles. He moreover held a gymnastic contest in the temple,
and celebrated a torch race. The military engine, also, with which the wall
had been battered down, was brought into the temple and dedicated as a
thank-offering; and the Tyrian ship sacred to Heracles, which had been
captured in the naval attack, was likewise dedicated to the god. An
inscription was placed on it, either composed by Alexander himself or by
some one else; but as it is not worthy of recollection, I have not deemed it
worth while to describe it. Thus then was Tyre captured in the month
Hecatombaion, when Anicetus was archon at Athens.

Ezekiel (Ezek 27:10-11) informs us that, like her daughter
Carthage, Tyre employed mercenaries, of Persia (the first mention of
Persia in ancient literature), Lud, Phut, and Arvad; a frequent
occurrence and weakness in commercial cities, where artisans' wages
exceed a soldier's pay. Merchants of SHEBA and RAAMAH (which see),
i.e. Arabia. and the Persian gulf, brought Tyre gold (Ezek 27).
TARSHISH (which see) supplied Tyre with silver, iron, tin (from
Cornwall), and lead; Palestine supplied Tyre with wheat, oil, and
balm (1 Kings 5:9; Acts 12:20); whence the two nations were always at
peace. Tyre got the wine of Helbon (Aleppo), not Judah's wines though
excellent (Gen 49:11). The nomadic Bedouin Kedar supplied lambs,
rams, and goats; Egypt, linen; the isles of Elishah (Greece, the
Peloponnese, and Elis especially), blue and purple dyes; (latterly
Tyre extracted her famous purple from her own shell fish the Murex
trunculus (see SCARLET): Pliny ix. 60,61, Pausanias iii. 21, section
6; the shell fish were crushed in round holes found still by
travelers in the solid sandstone there: Wilde, Voyage along
Mediterr.); and Dedan on the Persian gulf, ivory and ebony.

The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World, Creasy, Edward Shepherd M,
Scr 155: 664
When Tyre and Sidon, and the other cities of Phoenicia itself sank from
independent republics into mere vassal states of the great Asiatic
monarchies and obeyed by turns a Babylonian, a Persian, and a Macedonian
master, their power and their traffic rapidly declined, and Carthage
succeeded to the important maritime and commercial character which they had
previously maintained. The Carthaginians did not seek to compete with the
Greeks on the northeastern shores of the Mediterranean, or in the three
inland seas which are connected with it; but they maintained an active
intercourse with the Phoenicians, and through them with Lower and Central
Asia; and they, and they alone, after the decline and fall of Tyre,
navigated the waters of the Atlantic. They had the monopoly of all the
commerce of the world that was carried on beyond the Straits of Gibraltar.
Electronically Enhanced Text @1990-1998 World Library
e. The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World -Creasy, Edward Shepherd Scr
153: 664
The Greek supplants the Phoenician in all his factories, all his colonies in
the East: soon will the Roman come, and do likewise in the West. Alexander
did far more against Tyre than Salmanasar or Nabuchodonosor had done. Not
content with crushing her, he took care that she never should revive; for he
founded Alexandria as her substitute, and changed forever the track of the
commerce of the world. There remained Carthage- the great Carthage, and her
mighty empire- mighty in a far different degree.
f. Tyre, the impregnable city of Syria, was besieged and taken (An
Hellenistic Age).
g. Thus Tyre fell in July, 332 B.C., after a seige of seven
months.....Nothing, however, could hide the fact that the PHoenician coast
had been won by the commission of an enormous crime. (Botsford and
h. Who Replaced Tyre's Economic and Military Superiority on The
Mediterranean?
Quote:
Situated at one of the crossroads of the Mediterranean, in a position to
take advantage of that expanding trade which Alexander's conquests had made
possible between Europe, Egypt, and Asia, Rhodes' spacious harbors replaced
Tyre and the Piracus as a port of reshipment for goods, and as a
clearinghouse for the 'organization and financing of commerce in the eastern
sea. Her merchants establishcd a profitable reputation for honesty, her
banks and her government for stability, in a world of treachery and change;
her powerful fleet, manned by her citizens, cleared the Aegean of pirates,
maintained an equal security for the merchant vessels of all nations, and
established a code of maritime law so ably devised and so widely accepted
that it governed Mediterranean trade for centuries, and passed down into the
marine law of Rome, Constantinople, and Venice. (The Life of Greece, Will
Durant, p.571)
i. ...after a seven months' seige, capturing Tyre. These victories gave him
possession of the coasts of Asia Minor, Syria, and Phoenicia. (A Survey of
European Civilization, Third Edition, p.43).
j. Alexander's next step was the siege of Tyre. This Phoenician city, the
headquarters of Persia's naval power, lay on an island half a mile from the
shore. Alexander could only approach it by building a mole, or causeway,
between the shore and the island. Battering rams then breached the walls,
the Macedonians poured in, and Tyre fell by storm. The great emporium of the
Palestine into Egypt. The Persian officials there offered little resistance,
and the Egyptians themselves welcomed Alexander as a deliverer . (World
k. H.G. Wells says of Alexander the great: "Tyre he destroyed". (The
Tyre; in Egypt, at one of the mouths of the Nile, he now founded a new city,
Alexandria, to replace that ancient city of trade".
l. Other relevant quotes from religious and secular historians:
Annotated Chronology
of Military Events
1996, 1997, 1998, 1999 Copyright. Richard R. Orsinger
-587 Nebuchadnezzar II beseiges Jerusalem for 18 months, takes the city, and
relocates Jews to Babylon.
-586 Nebuchadnezzar II captures Tyre.
http://www.txdirect.net/users/rrichard/militar1.htm
Check out:
http://ubmail.ubalt.edu/~pfitz/time/tl_hist0000.html
-1000 to -901
Phoenicians, established at Tyre, continue westward expansion into Cyprus
and western Mediterranean; found colonies on west coast of Morocco; early
link of Asiatic and Greek civilization
Alexander destroys Thebes -335
Alexander campaigns against Persia: he defeats Darius at Issus -333,
conquers Tyre and Jerusalem -332, and defeats Darius at Gaugamela -331
Check also:
http://www.nisbett.com/people/bp-nebuchadnezzar.htm
Nebuchadnezzar also subjugated Tyre after a siege of 13 years (see Eze 26:1
to 28:19; Jos. Against Apion i. 21.
Check also:
http://encarta.msn.com/index/conciseindex/2C/02CF3000.htm?z=1&pg=2&br=1
Nebuchadnezzar also conducted a 13-year siege of the Phoenician city of Tyre
and launched an invasion of Egypt in 568 BC.
Check out:
http://www.phoenicia.org/history.html
During Sennacherib's reign (705-681 B.C.) he crushed a serious revolt by
coastal cities in 701 B.C. and forced Luli (Elulaeus), king of Tyre, to flee
to Cyprus (see graphic depicting escape to Cyprus), where he died. Later
Sidon revolted against the Assyrian ruler Esarhaddon (681-669 B C.) who in
676 B.C. sacked and destroyed it and in its place built a governor's
residence, called Kar-Esarhaddon, for a new Assyrian province. He also made
a treaty with Baal, king of Tyre. Ashurbanipal (668-627 B.C.) laid siege to
Tyre and Nebuchadnezzar besieged it for thirteen years (586-573 B.C.; Ezek.
26-28: 19).
See also:
http://www.sarissa.org/timeline.html
http://www.middleeast.com/tyre.htm

The walk to Area Three takes you through a residential part of Tyre called
Hay Er-Raml or the Quarter of Sand. You are in fact walking on what once was
Alexander the Great's causeway. Accumulating sands and extensive landfill have
expanded this old land link to the extent that modern visitors have the
impression that Tyre is built on a peninsula.
==
A short quote will prove that this
fable was not understood to be allegorical near the time of Jesus:
1...God commanded that there should be light: and when that was made, he
considered the whole mass, and separated the light and the darkness; and the
name he gave to one was Night, and the other he called Day: and he named the
beginning of light, and the time of rest, The Evening and The Morning, and this
was indeed the FIRST DAY.....On the FOURTH DAY he adorned the heaven with the
sun, the moon, and the other stars, and appointed them their motions and
courses, that the vicissitudes of the seasons might be clearly signified"
-Josephus, Antiquities 1:1
==
Judas the Galilean was the author of the fourth
branch of Jewish philosophy. These men agree in all other
things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable
attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their
only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds
of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their
relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call
any man lord." [Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.23]
Josephus repeatedly mentions Judas and his revolt
(Ant. xviii. 1.6; 6; xx. 5. 2; War ii. 8. 1; 18. 8; vii. 8. 1).
Judas forbade the payment of taxes the Romans, on the basis
that the Jews were Gods chosen people and that God had given
them the land of Canaan. No foreign power, he contended, had
the right to levy taxes upon them, and submission to taxation
was no better than slavery.
==
Mathew 28:19 was added somewhere between 100-200AD, since no
biblical manuscripts of that passage exist that old,
==
In Dioysian mythology, his followers, the meneads were rumored to also be able
to turn water into wine, among other magical abilities when they were in a
proper orgiastic trance. Dionysius was, like Jesus, a Soterological god, lots
of parallels to be found for those who look. And predated Jesus by a thousand
years or more.
==
The Britannica estimates that Torquemada burned arounr 2,200 people.
==
Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism
did not develop untill the Fourth Century CE starting in 325 at the
formation of the Catholic Church. Prior to this Jews and non-Jews who
accepted Messiah worshiped in the same synagogue as one united body.
==
An Akkadian stela contained an inscription that told of king Sargon's
apparently illegitimate birth to a priestess, who made a basket of reeds,
put the infant Sargon in it, and set him afloat on the Euphrates River. He
was rescued by a gardener who taught him the art of cultivation until he
was noticed by the goddess Inanna, who took him to the court of king
Urzabal, where he was given the name Sargon and later became king.
==
1 Cor 14 (NIV)
33 As in all the congregations of the saints,
34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to
speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own
husbands at home; for **it is disgraceful** for a *woman to speak* in the
church.
36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has
reached?
37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him
acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
==
(Gen.2:21-24)
The Reality: The story of Eve's birth integrates the Egyptian
story of the separation of heaven and earth with portions of
the Sumerian myth of Enki and Ninhursag.
The character of Eve draws upon a number of myths, both
Egyptian and Sumerian. According to Genesis, God created
Eve out of Adam's rib.
.... Adam and Eve corresponded to the Egyptian deities Geb
(Earth) and Nut (Heaven). According to Egyptian Coffin Text 80,
Atum said he created Nut so that "she could be over my head
and Geb could marry her." In other words, the Egyptians saw
the union of Earth and Heaven as the basis for marriage, and
this principle is carried over into Genesis with Adam and Eve.
While Adam became the sole parent of Eve, just as Atum
(the Heliopolitan Creator) became the sole parent of his children,
the idea that Eve came from Adam's rib derives from a pun in
ancient Sumerian, Mesopotamia's earlest Iterary laguage.
It originates with the Sumerian myth of Enki and Ninhursag.
In that myth, Enki suffered from eight pains, one of which was
in the rib,
"My brother; what hurts thee?"
"[My] rib [hurts me],"  (ANET, 41.)
The name of the deity who cured Enki's rib was Ninti -- a name
that in Sumerian has a double meaning, The first part,"Nin,"
means "the lady of" but the second part,"ti" (pronounced "tee"),
means both "rib" and "to make live." Ninti, therefore, signifies
both "the lady of the rib" and "the lady who makes life."
Eve, too, combines both titles. She is truly the "lady of the rib,"
as she came from the rib. And, as her earlier title,"mother of all
living," indicates, she is the "lady who makes life."
source:  Myth #23, "Eve came from Adam's rib", pages 54 and 55
==
Gerardus D. Bouw,The Book of Bible Problems.
==
Religion is often a vehicle for fanaticism, because it works on
emotion, not logic, and because there is no objective test for the truth
of religious claims. Different religions are more or less bad at
different times in different places, and religious influences interact
with racial and political ones in many ways. It is true to say, though,
that religion is often an inflaming influence on situations which are
already bad, and rarely if ever seems to be an influence for good.
==
I Chronicles 18:4 says: "And David took from him a thousand chariots,
and 7,000 horsemen, and 20,000 footmen."

The NIV and NASB don't even agree with each other and both disagree with
the KJB. In I Samuel 8:4 the KJB says 1,000 chariots and 700 horsemen and
20,000 footmen; the NASB says David captured from him 1,700 horsemen and
20,000 footmen, while the NIV says David took 1,000 of his chariots, 7,000
charioteers and 20,000 foot soldiers.
==
William Dever __What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They
Know It__ (Eerdmans, 2001) The subtitle of the book is What
Archaeology Can Tell Us about the Reality of Ancient Israel
==
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jordan.html
~Dave Miller, "Why I Believe in the Inerrancy of the Scriptures"
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1992/4/4inerr92.html
~"Inspiration and Inerrancy" - MJ Sawyer
http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/biblio/inspdoct.htm
http://www.bible.org/illus/illus/illu0097.htm
~Warren Doud "The Inerrancy of the Bible"
http://www.realtime.net/~wdoud/library/inerrancy.html
http://www.goldinc.com/Tour/Greece/Publications/JBA/jbaindex.htm
http://www.gospelcom.net
http://web.wt.net/~scottt/apologia.htm

PRO ERRANCY
~The Skeptic's Annotated Bible (SAB) http://skepticsannotatedbible.com The
SAB includes the entire text of the King James Version of the Bible
presented from a skeptic's point of view.
~The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus
Christ by Acharya S http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
~Farrell Till, "Bible Inerrancy: A Belief Without Evidence
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1992/4/4evide92.html
* Contradictions
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/cgi-bin/webnews/read/contradictions/468
http://www.atheists.org/church/contradictions.html

*Prophecy
http://www.bible-prophecy.com/
~BEASTS, HORNS, AND THE ANTICHRIST
- is Daniel really a book of prophecy? http://www.danielprophecy.com/
~THE BIBLE CODE: Book Review http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur/biblcode.htm
- A review by a Christian skeptical of Drosnin's claims
-=-=-=-=-=-
*OTHER RELIGIONS CHALLENGING CHRISTIAN INERRANCY DOCTRINE
~[Pro-Judaism] Their Hollow Inheritance: A Comprehensive
Refutation of Christian Missionaries http://www.drazin.com/
The Bible requires acceptance of Islaam" http://www.isprin.com
-=-=-=-=-=-
*SOCIAL ISSUES AND INERRANCY:
~Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood promotes male leadership.
http://www.cbmw.org
~Christians for Biblical Equality promoting non-discrimination on the
basis of gender. http://www.cbeinternational.org
~Christian Reconstructionism, Dominion Theology and Theonomy
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm
~Rebellious Children - the Christian Reconstructionist view
http://members.aol.com/timgore/teenstone.htm
~Anti-Theonomy Christian Inerrantists - The Free Church of Scotland
- Theonomy and the Confession of Faith
http://www.freechurch.org/pq1.html
~Homosexuality
- Intolerance - Westboro Baptist church www.godhatesfags.com
- Inclusion - The Association of Welcoming & Affirming "
Baptists
http://members.aol.com/wabaptists
~Secular Education "Dumping on Darwin"
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Fields/7597/content/darwin.html
~"Family Values" - Bob Enyart http://www.enyart.com/news/35.html

GENERAL REFERENCES:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/ - search 7 different versions
of the Christian Scripture.
~Dating of the Oldest NT Manuscripts
http://odyssey.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/texts/manuscripts.html
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur/home.html This site also has "
lots of links regarding general study resources.
*Apocrypha/Extra-canonical writings about Jesus:
~The Gospel of Thomas http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
~Noncanonical Homepage http://wesley.nnc.edu/noncanon.htm
*Religions of the World:
~Adherents.com http://www.adherents.com/ is a growing collection of
over 30,000 adherent statistics and religious geography "
citations
-- references to published membership/adherent statistics "
and congregation statistics for over 2,500 religions, churches,
denominations, religious bodies, faith groups, tribes, "
movements, ultimate concerns, etc.
~Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance www.religioustolerance.org
ones on Christian inerrancy beliefs.
*General Skeptic sites:
~The Belief Engine - the nature of belief and disbelief
http://www.csicop.org/si/9505/belief.html
~The Critical Thinking Community http://www.criticalthinking.org/
~The Secular Web http://www.infidels.org/
~Page of Honest Intellectual Inquiry
Philosophy, Religion, Science and other thought provoking
topics discussed http://www.2think.org/hii/mo.shtml
~Stupid Skeptic Tricks - a view of sophistic debating tricks
used in rhetorical debate from a paranormalist point of view
http://www.discord.org/~lippard/stupid-skeptic-tricks.txt

~Warren Doud "The Inerrancy of the Bible"
http://www.realtime.net/~wdoud/library/inerrancy.html
~The Journal of Biblical Accuracy"
http://www.goldinc.com/Tour/Greece/Publications/JBA/jbaindex.htm
*Apologetics
http://www.gospelcom.net
http://web.wt.net/~scottt/apologia.htm
-=-=-=-=-=-
* PRO ERRANCY
~The Skeptic's Annotated Bible (SAB) http://skepticsannotatedbible.com The
presented from a skeptic's point of view.
Christ by Acharya S http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
~Farrell Till, "Bible Inerrancy: A Belief Without Evidence,
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1992/4/4evide92.html
* Contradictions
http://www.atheists.org/church/contradictions.html
==
Scripture is only as good as the documents and assumptions of our time
Maybe the present versions and understanding will be swept away by
future literary and social changes.
A whole new set of gospels might be discovered any time, totally
revising the earlier understandings.
==
In his book, "Jesus, Apocolytic Prophet of the New Millenium",
scholar Bart Ehrman lists the following criterion as historiographic techniques
used to determine the probability that events claimed in ancient documents
actually occured:
1. Independent attestation.
2. Criterion of dissimilarity.
3. Contextual credibility.
==
In Mr. Doherty's book, "The Jesus Puzzle,  he makes some good points.
Stories in first century writings and the epistles are indicative of a
spiritual Christ that was made manifest by the OT and not by a historical
person who actually lived.
Paul reflects this view.
==
Early Cbristianity
As a rule, however, those who disputed with what later became, or
already was, the orthodox tradition, have been buried under a mountain
of ecclesiastical Billingsgate. Odium theologicum was not a Christian
innovation. It was part of the Judaic heritage, along with the concept
of heresy and the anathema. As we have seen, the bland, eirenic tone
of the Acts, picturing the early Church as a collegiate body of
fair-minded senators, moving peaceably to collective decisions, belies
the reality we find in Paul. Harsh words among the brothers in Christ
made their appearance early and thereafter there was a steady
inflation in the exchange of abuse. In the second century, discussion
with heretics yielded to polemic and the magnitude of the orthodox
accusations and the scurrility of the abuse, usually corresponded to
the success of the movement. With the growth of polemic, it became
necessary to attack the morals as well as the doctrine of the
divergent. In fact the theory soon developed that doctrinal error
inevitably induced moral decay. Thus orthodox polemicists could invent
and believe accusations in good faith.
"Montanist officials were accused of gluttony and avarice simply
because they received salaries. The orthodox Apollonius accused
Alexander, whom he called a heretic, of highway robbery; he held
disgusting feasts with the prophetess Priscella, and she was covetous.
The indictment continues: `Does a true prophet use make-up? Does he
dye his eyebrows and eyelids? Does he love ornaments? Does he gamble?
Play dice? Does he lend money at interest?' What was normal practice
among all Christians - the practice of calling widows virgins, the
payment of priests, the use of money to get persecuted brethren out of
state prisons, were in heretic sects described as evil. The sects
which attracted the largest followings were, as a rule, the most
austere and God-fearing; but, being the most successful, they had to
be the most bitterly assailed on moral grounds.
"There is thus a sinister Goebbels' Law about early Christian
controversy: the louder the abuse, the bigger the lie. In a circular
Arians
'Impelled by avarice and ambition, these knaves are constantly
plotting to gain possession of the richest dioceses . . . they are
driven insane by the devil who works in them . . . skilled deceivers .
. . hatched a conspiracy . . . vile purposes . . . equipped dens of
robbers . . . organized a gang to fight Christ . . , excite disorders
against us . . . persuade people to persecute us . . . their immoral
womenfolk . . . their younger women followers run around the street in
an indecent fashion and discredit Christianity . . . .'
"And so on. There was a constant and depressing inflation in the
vocabulary of invective during the course of the first two centuries;
thus the orthodox were told that among the Manichees `no modesty, no
sense of honour and no chastity whatever is to be found; their moral
code is a mass of falsehoods, their religious beliefs are shaped by
the devil, and their sacrifice is immorality itself.'  Where their
writings survive, we find that heretics, schismatics and critics of
the orthodox used the same language. Thus the anti-Nestorian Bishop
Cyril of Alexandria was described by Isidore of Pelusium as `a man
determined to pursue his private hatreds rather than seek the true
faith of Jesus Christ'; and another critic, Bishop Theodoret of
Cyrrhus, greeted Cyril's death with the words: `The living are
delighted. The dead, perhaps, are sorry, afraid they may be burdened
with his company . . . . May the guild of undertakers lay a huge,
heavy stone on his grave, lest he should come back again and show his
faithless mind again. Let him take his new doctrines to Hell, and
preach to the damned all day and night.' The mind boggles at the lists
of offences with which distinguished ecclesiastics accused each other.
The historian Sozomen relates that at the Council of Tyre, 335,
Athanasius, the orthodox Bishop of Alexandria, was charged with
breaking a mystical chalice, smashing an episcopal chair, false
imprisonment, deposing a bishop unlawfully, placing him under military
guard and torturing him, striking other bishops physically, obtaining
his bishoprics by perjury, breaking and cutting off the arm of one of
his opponents, burning his house, tying him to a column and whipping
him, and putting him in a cell illegally - all this in addition to
teaching false doctrine.
The venom employed in these endemic controversies reflects the
fundamental instability of Christian belief during the early
centuries, before a canon of New Testament writings had been
established, credal formulations evolved to epitomize them, and a
regular ecclesiastical structure built up to protect and propagate
such agreed beliefs. Before the last half of the third century it is
inaccurate to speak of a dominant strain of Christianity. So far as we
can judge, by the end of the first century, and virtually throughout
the second, the majority of Christians believed in varieties of
Christian-gnosticism, or belonged to revivalist sects grouped round
charismatics. Eusebius, seeking to push back the origins of uniformity
and orthodoxy as close as possible to the generation of the apostles,
constantly uses phrases - `countless', `very many', `all', - when he
deals with the orthodox Church, its size, its influence, its success,
its champions and its heroic sacrifices, which is not borne out by
evidence, even when he cites it. In particular, he exaggerates the
to show that a massive quantity of books setting out the true faith
was produced in the first two centuries, that they had wide
circulation, were faithfully preserved and enjoyed a long life; they
grew up and spread so vigorously that they smashed the heretics or
drove them into tiny enclaves. But the books to which Eusebius refers
have not survived and he does not seem to have read them, to judge by
his references. Why should they survive up to the fourth century, then
disappear? On the other side, the overwhelming bulk of heretic
writings, including diatribes between rival heresies, have
disappeared. But often their titles survive and these, in many cases,
do not suggest polemics - the works of sects struggling for survival
against orthodoxy - but the regular teaching of the established
majority faith."
==
The Bible makes many very specific claims about the route taken in the
wilderness and the campsites used. Archaeology has debunked that. A large
number of people camping at the few known large springs in the area would leave
hearths, middens, broken pottery, graves, and other signs of their passing over
40 years. Archaeologists, looking for these things to prove these tales true
have had to admit, they have disproven these claims. The reason this tall tale
was written was to give Israel a 'history' and make the false claims that their
God gave them all the land in the area.

http://www.geocities.com/~amenhotep/
Contrary to popular beliefs, there were no slaves in Ancient Egypt such as
we know them in the histories of Greece or Rome or in pre-20th century
America. The entire concept of owning and selling people, like cattle, was
unknown to the Ancient Egyptians. There are no records and no documents even
hinting at the possibility that people, whatever their origins, were sold.
Also, the population of Egypt at the time was between two and four million
people. A departure of one-third to one-half of your population would
undoubtedly have a great influence on your crops, public works, merchants
and trade routes, etc. yet there is no record of any such disruptions.

Think of nearly two million people exiting Egypt at a time when a good number
of native Egyptians (the firstborn of every family) were dead from
the tenth and final plague of God. In addition, a huge proportion of
Egyptian livestock had been confiscated by the Hebrew slaves and so
the Egyptians were left with a decimated population, no workforce and
most of their food source and wealth stolen from underneath their noses.
Yet none of this is reported in any of the countless Egyptian
documents that have been dug from the ruins of that once great
empire. At the last United States census, the number of Hebrews
and mixed others that the Bible says fled Egypt (given my above
calculations), would have been more than the entire populations of
either Maine or Idaho. In fact, it would have been like the people of
either of these states had gotten up and simply left. The number is
greater than the combined populations in the states of Alaska and
Delaware. And now consider this: At the time of the Roman conquest a
total of about 7 million people lived in Egypt. This is long after
the supposed time of the Exodus so the number of people living in
Egypt at that date (c. 1440) would have been far less. We are now
talking about nearly half of the entire population of ancient Egypt
getting up and leaving, never to return. Can you imagine? And not one
single shred of documented evidence outside the Bible attests to this
incredible event.
For those of you that like to argue that the reason this event did
not get recorded by the Egyptians was because they wanted to save
face, why is there no non-Egyptian source, independent of the Bible,
that even makes mention of this cataclysmic episode, then? Surely
those enemies of Egypt which, prior to the Exodus, sat salivating at
Egypt's door, hungry for the wealth of the Nile's people, would have
gotten wind of this devistating event and would have used it to their
advantage. But what do we hear from neighboring sources regarding the
biblical Exodus? Nothing. And, besides, Egypt DID record negative
aspects about itself. Try reading the "Papyrus of Ipuwer" but, don't try
to use it as some sort of evidence for the ten plagues of God.
==
There is an interesting article by top Biblical Scholar, Raymond
Brown, called "The Inspired Bible as Word of God". It is an
interesting non-fundamentalist Christian view of the subject of inerrancy.
I will summarise the article here, with a smattering of quotes.
Brown asks this question: What is the extent to which the inspired
Bible is a time-conditioned work, "marked by the limitations of human
utterance?"
Over the last century or so, there has been a progression in Catholic
circles towards the recognition and acknowledgement of errors in the Bible.
- Pope Leo XIII in "Providentissimus Deus" first excluded natural or
scientific matters from biblical inerrancy on the ground that "they
*appeared* to ancient writers as correct. Comments Brown: "The
theory that these statements were made according to surface
appearances and so are not necessarily correct from a scientific
viewpoint is a backdoor way of admitting human conditioning on the
part of the biblical authors."
- Leo XIII also extended the same principles to cognate sciences,
including history.
- In Vatican II, Cardinal Koenig read of a list of historical errors
in the Bible, and affirmed that: "the Biblical books are deficient in
accuracy as regards both historical and scientific matters."
Brown would add that the Bible also contains many *religious*
limitations, and states that "The Bible, most would recognize, was
not written as a scientific or historical textbook, but many would
think of it as almost a religious textbook." His example of
religious failing of the Bible is the Biblical denial of the
afterlife in Job 14:13-22 & Sirach 14:16-17, 17:22-23 & 38:21 (Sirach
is in the Catholic, but not the Protestant canon). "It is not that
the respective authors were ignorant of the possibility of an
afterlife; they brought it up as a solution and rejected it at the
same time that other biblical authors were accepting it."
Brown then comments on the two main ways Christians may deal with the
apparent errors in the Bible:
1. (the Fundamentalist Christian view)
"If one has an a priori view of inerrancy that forbids a religious
error in the Bible, one will have to argue insistently that Job did
not mean what he seems to say. A good deal of time and effort has
been spent by interpreters in such efforts, whether applied to
religious errors or to the above-mentioned historical and scientific
errors. This approach, in my judgment, is an unmitigated disaster,
draining off energy into the creation of ingenious implausibilities
and turning exegesis into apologetics."
2. An a posteriori approach to inerrancy:
Brown's method relies on ordinary principles of interpretation,
without having made a preliminary judgement that everything in the
Bible is true:
"Using the best biblical methods available, scholars seek to
determine what the human author meant with all his limitations."
Under this method, "if one discovers religious errors, one does not
seek to explain them away; one recognizes that God is willing to work
with human beings in all their limitations, and that each author's
contribution is only part of a larger presentation of biblical truth."
Brown comments that "we have spent too much time protecting the God
who inspired the Scriptures from limitations that He seems not to
have been concerned about. The impassioned debate about inerrancy
tells us less about divine omnipotence (which presumably allows God
to be relaxed) than about our own insecurity in looking for absolute answers."
The a posteriori position was recognised at Vatican II ("Dei verbum 11"):
"The Books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching firmly,
faithfully, and without error that truth which God wanted put into
the sacred writings for the sake of our salvation."
In other words, according to Brown: "Everything in Scripture is
inerrant to the extent to which it conforms to the salvific purpose
of God." God's wish for salvation is assumed a priori. But the
extent to which truth in scripture conforms to that purpose is an a
posteriori issue.
The viewpoint is an interesting one to consider, especially when the
issue is usually reduced to that of a difference between
fundamentalist Christian and non-Christian.
- Brown, R "The Inspired Bible as Word of God" in The Critical
Meaning of the Bible (New York: Paulist Press, 1981), 14-22
==
Astrology and the Bible - Joseph J. Dewey
Astrology and the Old Testament
http://www.thenewagesite.com/astrology/1.htm
Astrology and the New Testament - Part I
http://www.thenewagesite.com/astrology/2.htm
Astrology and the New Testament - Part II
http://www.thenewagesite.com/astrology/3.htm
www.theNewAgeSite.com
http://www.unification911.org

Robert Graves'_The Greek Myths_, from  1955 (revised 1960).

Bible History- Old Testament by Edersheim

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-thermodynamics.html
==
Eternal life is absent in the Old Testament
until we get to the second century BC: Daniel, Maccabees, and later
Wisdom of Solomon.
==
The "Faith Seeking Understanding" program is associated with three
of the greatest philosophers of Christendom, Saint Augustine (354-
430), Saint Anselm (1033-1109), and Saint Thomas Aquinas (1224-1274).
These three saintly thinkers taught that although our faith is not
based on reason, our faith is reasonable. In other words, although we
do not believe because it is reasonable, it is reasonable to believe."
http://www.classicaleacademy.com/faith%20seeking.htm

http://www.jkpcusa.org/documents/
==
If Mormonism was false, it would have been disproven long ago.
If Islam was false....
The length of time something has been believed is unrelated to its
truthfulness.
==
Jesus in Mat 44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse
you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
you, and persecute you;

But

Send everybody to hell who will not follow Jesus.
==
How could eyewitnesses John
(chap. 2) report the cleansing of the Temple at the beginning of the
ministry and eyewitness Matthew (chap. 21) report the cleansing of
the Temple at the end of the ministry? In order to reconcile them,
interpreters would contend that the Temple-cleansing happened twice
and that each evangelist chose to report only one of the two instances.
Many other examples of improbable reconciliations could be offered.
Since Matt has a Sermon on the Mount and Luke has a similar Sermon on
the Plain (Matt 5:1; Luke 6:17), there must have been a plain on the
side of the mountain. Since Matt has the Lord's Prayer taught in
that sermon and Luke has it later on the road to Jerusalem (Matt 6:9-
13; Luke 11:2-4), the disciples must have forgotten it, causing Jesus
to repeat it. Mark 10:46 places the healing of the blind man after
Jesus left Jericho, while Luke 18:35; 19:1 places it before Jesus
entered Jericho. Perhaps Jesus was leaving the site of OT Jericho
and entering the site of NT Jericho!
==
The Targums of Onkelos and Jonathan Ben Uzziel On the Pentateuch
With The Fragments of the Jerusalem Targum From the Chaldee
By J. W. Etheridge, M.A. First Published 1862

http://www.tulane.edu/~ntcs/pj/psjon.htm>http://www.tulane.edu/~ntcs/pj/psj"
on.htm

And I will put enmity between  thee and the woman, and between the seed of
thy son, and the seed of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the
woman keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite
thee  upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law,
thou wilt  be ready to wound them in their heel. Nevertheless for them there
shall be a medicine, but for thee there will be no medicine; and they shall
make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha.
==
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Texts/apollod.summ.html
Apollodorus, Library and Epitome (ed. Sir James George Frazer)
IV. When Acrisius inquired of the oracle how he should get male children,
the god said that his daughter would give birth to a son who would kill
him.1 Fearing that, Acrisius built a brazen chamber [p. 155] under ground
and there guarded Danae.2 However, ****she was seduced, as some say, by
Proetus**, whence arose the quarrel between them;3 but some say that
***Zeus had intercourse with her in the shape of a stream of gold which
poured through the roof into Danae's lap.*** When Acrisius afterwards
learned that she had got a child Perseus, he would not believe that she had
been ***seduced by Zeus***, and putting his daughter with the child in a
chest, he cast it into the sea. The chest was washed ashore on Seriphus,
and Dictys took up the boy and reared him.
seduced by Proetus, intercourse in the shape of gold, seduced by Zeus,
NOTHING about her virginity, and any action by the "Gods" is actual
intercourse and seduction.
==
The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English, Giza Vermes
==
The Turin cloth first appeared in north-central France in the
mid-fourteenth century. At that time the local bishop uncovered an artist
who confessed he had "cunningly painted" the image. Subsequently, in 1389,
Pope Clement VII officially declared the shroud to be only a painted
"representation."
So the scientific evidence that you list is the testimony of a bishop
and the fact that a pope made some statement about it in 1389?
For example, I recommend that you take a look at the book
The Jesus Conspiracy by Kersten and Gruber

According to a report written by Pierre D'Arcis 1389 for Pope Clement
the VII:
"Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination, he (speaking of a
predecessor)discovered the fraud and how the said cloth had been
cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who painted
it, to wit, that it was a work of human skill and not miraculously
wrought or bestowed."
As a result, the Pope allowed the cloth to be exhibited with the
announcement that "it is not the true Shroud of Our Lord, but a
painting or picture made in the semblance or representation of the
Shroud" (Humber, 1978, 100)
In 1973, a secret commission appointed by the Archbishop of Turin
tried to validate the "blood" on the "shroud". Unfortunately for
shroud advocates "all of the microscopical, chemical, biological, and
instrumental test were negative...Experts discovered reddish granules
that would not even dissolve in reagents that dissolve blood, and one
Microanalyst Walter McCrobe, investigating on behalf of shroud
advocates, analyzed 32 samples from the shroud and found that the
so-called "blood" was "tempura paint containing red ochre and
vermillion along with traces of rose madder - pigments used by
artists of that time.
There is considerably more evidence against the authenticity of the
shroud, and evidence for fraud by its advocates. I'm indebted to
September/October 2001 issue of Skeptical Inquirer for this information
Consider criminologist Max Frei-Sulzer, whose claims regarding pollen grains
on the cloth suffer from the fact his credibilty is nil.
==
All sorts of legends developed around western "heroes" like Buffalo
Bill Cody, Wild Bill Hickok, Billy the Kid, Wyatt Earp, Jesse James, Belle
Starr, Annie Oakley, Calamity Jane, etc. These legends developed during
the lifetimes of these men. So much legend developed around the shootout
that the Earp brothers and Doc Holiday had with the Clantons that no one
really knows what happened. While I was once browsing in a book store, I
spot read in a book written by Wyatt Earp's widow. She singled out the
"shootout at the OK Corral" as an example of myths that had developed about
her husband. She was present at Tombstone, Arizona, when the shootout
occurred and witnessed it. She said that, for starters, the shootout
didn't happen at the OK Corral. This was where the Clantons had gathered,
but they advanced away from the Corral and encountered the Earps and Doc
Holiday further down a street that led to the corral. She mentioned that
the shooting had actually occurred in front of a house owned by a man she
identified by name, but I don't recall it at this time. She further said
that the shooting lasted just a few seconds and was not the long, drawn out
affair popularized in dime novels and later by Hollywood.
I have in my paper files somewhere a copy of the Tombstone paper, which
published an account of the shootout the next day. The reporter's account
was nothing like what the legend quickly grew to be.
Till this day, controversy continues over the death of Jesse James, who was
thought to have been shot in the back by one of his gang members. Some
claim that the death of James was faked by shooting someone else and
passing the body off as James's. Not too many years ago, a body was
exhumed in Texas and subjected to DNA testing, because it was thought that
James may have moved away from Missouri after having staged his death and
had died a natural death in Texas. If I remember correctly, experts
compared the DNA to that of a known descendant of Frank James, Jesse's
brother, and concluded that the body in the grave was that of Jesse James.
By the way, Wyatt Earp was born in Monmouth, Illinois and there are two houses
in the town whose owners both claim that their house was where Earp was born.
A newspaper story published by the Peoria Journal Star a few years ago
discussed the controversy and claimed that no one has been able to determine
which house, if either, Earp was born in.
==
The extreme Calvinistic view is that God has elected some for salvation, before
the foundation of the world, and the others are damned to hell. This is
commonly called double predestination. This seems rather cruel, at first
glance, but Calvinists explain that we *all* deserve to die and go to hell
because of Adam's sin. So God is showing mercy by saving some when we all
deserve eternal damnation. The lucky ones chosen by God for salvation have done
nothing on their own to deserve salvation, the Calvinists say -- they are
elected by God for salvation based on some reason only God knows.  This view
explains why so many people who have lived and died on earth have never heard
the word of God or the, plan of salvation. Those poor folks were not among the
elect, so God never bothered to send missionaries to them at all.
==
TAUNTON, Mass. - A religious sect member and his wife slowly, knowingly starved
their infant son to death in 1999 as he cried horrifically, a prosecutor said
Wednesday as the man's murder trial opened.
Assistant District Attorney Walter Shea said Jacques Robidoux kept extensive
notes of baby Samuel's drawn-out death, which Shea said began after another
sect member received a religious prophesy.
"By the end of Day One, he writes that his wife, Karen, cannot bear what has
happened because Samuel is crying so much," Shea said.
The boy died two months later, in April 1999, three days before his first
birthday. His body was found buried alongside his newborn cousin in a remote
state park in Maine.
Jacques Robidoux, 29, is charged with first-degree murder. His wife faces a
separate trial on a charge of second-degree murder.
face of the radical weight loss. ... Jacques Robidoux and his wife Karen
continued to do what they knew was killing their son," Shea said.
==
Papias, one of the earliest Christians
we have writings from, as quoted by Eusebius, tells us that
The Apostle Matthew did leave us a book, a collection apparently
of wisdom sayings of Jesus written in Aramaic.
And each man interpreted it as well as he was able to.
The only known writing from an apostle and it seems
to have disappeared very early on.
Even the first Christians apparently couldn't
keep up with the earliest writings themselves, much
less their opponents keep up with them.
After Jesus was crucified, his disciples and his brother
James stayed in Jerusalem for 30 some years, until
they left Jerusalem before the Fall in 70 CE.
And yet, not a single scrap of writing survives from these people.
==
Pope Paul VI - We believe that the Most Holy Mother of God, the new
Eve, the Mother of the Church, carries on in heaven her maternal role
with regard to the members of Christ, cooperating in the birth and
development of divine life in the souls of the redeemed.

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for
the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
(Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull, Unam Sanctum, 1302.)

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE
of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews
and heretics [Protestants] and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal;
but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil
and his angels, UNLESS before death they are joined with Her (Pope Eugene IV,
the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

Heretics are to be classed with thieves and murderers. (Pope Innocent IV)

If anyone says that without divine grace through Jesus Christ a man
can be justified through his own works ... done by his own natural powers: let
him be anathema (Council of Trent - On Justification Canon 1, Dnz. 811)

At the Council of Trent (1546) the Roman Catholic religion pronounced the
following apocryphal books sacred. They asserted that the apocryphal books
together with unwritten tradition are of God and are to be received and
venerated as the Word of God. So now you have the Bible, the Apocrypha and
Catholic Tradition as co-equal sources of truth for the Catholic. In reality,
the Bible is the last source of truth for Catholics. Catholic doctrine comes
primarily from tradition stuck together with a few Bible names. In my reading
of Catholic materials, I find notes like this: You have to keep the Bible in
perspective. Catholics do not believe that the Bible is Gods complete
revelation for man.

The Roman Catholic Apocrypha
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
First and Second Maccabees
Additions to Esther and Daniel

Apocryphal Books rejected by the Catholic Religion:
First and Second Esdras
Prayer of Manasses
Susanna

http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct04can.html

Is there any indication, outside of the teachings of Paul and other early
Christians, that Jesus himself ever taught that the Old Covenant was to be
replaced? Jesus himself supposedly said that the Law will not pass away,
etc, and nothing is said to the contrary. Claims to the effect of the
Law won't pass away until it is fulfilled (i.e. in Jesus' resurrection)
seem to have been a later interpretation by believers.

If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is
severed from the Godhead. Gregory of Nazianzus,To Cledonius,101(A.D. 382),
in NPNF2,VII:439

Athanasius .....The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly,
inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here
below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God (The Incarnation of the Word of
God 8 [A.D. 365])

Ambrose of Milan...The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the
greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more
glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).
==
Natural forces, by definition, are bound to form a consistent pattern.
Supernatural forces are not so bound. If we find a consistent pattern, we
can either conclude that it was produced by natural forces, or that it was
produced by a supernatural agent that _chose_ to fake a consistent pattern.
We cannot exclude the second possibility, but as the pattern grows and stays
consistent, that option grows more and more silly, quite apart from carrying
additional metaphysics. Therefore we provisionally go with the first option.
Invoking the supernatural is _additional_ metaphysics.
Unless explanations without that additional metaphysics leads to
contradictions, we should be parsimonious and do without it.
===
In the months during which Vespasian was waiting at Alexandria for the
periodical return of the summer gales and settled weather at sea, many
wonders occurred which seemed to point him out as the object of the favour
of heaven and of the partiality of the Gods. One of the common people of
Alexandria, well known for his blindness, threw himself at the Emperor's
knees, and implored him with groans to heal his infirmity. This he did by
the advice of the God Serapis, whom this nation, devoted as it is to many
superstitions, worships more than any other divinity. He begged Vespasian
that he would deign to moisten his cheeks and eye-balls with his spittle.
Another with a diseased hand, at the counsel of the same God, prayed that
the limb might feet the print of a Caesar's foot. At first Vespasian
ridiculed and repulsed them. They persisted; and he, though on the one
hand he feared the scandal of a fruitless attempt, yet, on the other, was
induced by the entreaties of the men and by the language of his flatterers to
hope for success. At last he ordered that the opinion of physicians should be
taken, as to whether such blindness and infirmity were within the reach of
human skill. They discussed the matter from different points of view. In
the one case, they said, the faculty of sight was not wholly destroyed,
and might return, if the obstacies were removed; in the other case, the
limb, which had fallen into a diseased condition, might be restored, if a
healing influence were applied; such, perhaps, might be the pleasure of
the Gods, and the Emperor might be chosen to be the minister of the divine
will;
at any rate, all the glory of a successful remedy would be Caesar's, while
the ridicule of failure would fall on the sufferers. And so Vespasian,
supposing that all things were possible to his good fortune, and that
nothing was any longer past belief, with a joyful countenance, amid the
intense expectation of the multitude of bystanders, accomplished what was
required. The hand was instantly restored to its use, and the light of day
again shone upon the blind. Persons actually present attest both facts,
even now when nothing is to be gained by falsehood.
Tacitus (ca 56 - 117 C.E.), 'Histories'
==
The discoveries at Oxyrhynchus during the 20th century clarified this
point, much debated before then. F.G.Kenyon, "Books and Readers in
Ancient Greece and Rome" discusses this, I think.
I think most papyrus gospel fragments are *later* than 150. Mind you,
the gap between composition and first material witness for a writer
can be 15 centuries, just in case anyone was about to jump to
conclusions. The gap for the gospel writers is one of the smallest
before the 4th century, as far as I know, although a piece of Irenaeus
from 200AD (20 years after composition) is the shortest I know of.
==
Irenaeus, Against Heresies. Book 2,Chapter 22, para (5).
Irenaeus has Jesus living until age 50.
==
It's The Dating Of The Age Of Irenaeus (The Age Of Irenaeus)
Pearse:
Not as bad as that. Remember that the apostle John lived until around
95AD, and was known to many people. His disciple Polycarp was
teaching in Rome in 155, and taught Irenaeus in Asia who saw him again
in Rome. Irenaeus was thus in a very good position indeed to know
what the apostles and their appointed delegates taught - and he
doesn't take this view on the gospels. Nor should we. Whether we
agree with the religious content, there seems no pressing reason to
deny that they emerge around the traditional date from apostolic
circles. Which is what one would expect.
-
The above assertion is based in part on the assumption that Irenaeus' famous
book "Against Heresies" is credible. The background for the book is that in
Irenaeus' time Christianity was increasingly competing with itself in the form
of differing sects and not just with Pagans. Christian competition centered
around interpretation of Scripture and Irenaeus' job was to demonstrate that
his sect of Christianity had the correct interpretations.
Irenaeus provides a supposed succession of Bishops of Rome from Peter to
Irenaeus' time but there are many good reasons to doubt the reliability of
Irenaeus' list:
1) There is little evidence that Peter was ever in Rome.
2) Irenaeus had incentive to force the list as the related book was motivated
by Polemics.
3) No one before Irenaeus had any such list.
4) Other Church Fathers indicate gaps between known Bishops of Rome.
5) Other Church Fathers contradict the order of Bishops Irenaeus has.
6) Christian writings for the first three hundred years of Christianity
indicate that Churches outside of Rome either claimed to have their own
apostolic tradition separate from Rome or simply didn't consider Rome to have
any inside tract on disciple succession.
7) The Church often edited writings of its own Fathers to remove information
which contradicted important Christian assertions.
8) In the book Irenaeus wrote: "In this book we shall treat only what is useful
for us". You see words to that effect a lot in Christian writings. The
implication is that Irenaeus was aware of contradictory information but
deliberately decided to conceal it.
9) The implication from Irenaeus' claimed list of succesive Bishops and what we
would expect in a modern debate setting such as alt.bible.errancy is that
successors of witnesses such as Irenaeus would have had inside information and
an oral tradition as to the meaning of Scripture. In the book though Irenaeus
never explicitly makes this connection. He does explicitly state though that an
official succession of Bishops endowed each successor with the Holy Spirit (an
extra dose I guess). So the implication from Pearse' statement for the modern
reader that Irenaeus had an oral tradition to use is not necessarily exactly
what Iraeneus meant.
10) The only significant argument in the entire book where Irenaeus relies on
oral tradition rather than interpreting Scripture by appealing to other
Scripture like everyone else (those he accused of heresy and Christians
thousands of years later) is the age of Jesus when he died. This lack of use of
oral tradition by Irenaeus casts serious doubt on his claimed succession of
witnesses.
11) Irenaeus implies that according to oral tradition Jesus was close to 50
when he died. This assertion is disputed by virtually every other Church Father
who specifically commented on the subject. In order to place Jesus around this
age Irenaeus wrote in "Demonstration" that Jesus died while Claudius was
emperor. Claudius is commonly thought to have been emperor from 41-54 CE. You
have the comical result then that according to what Irenaeus wrote Paul would
have been teaching about the significance of Jesus' death while Jesus was "
still alive.
http://hometown.aol.com/abdulreis/myhomepage/index.html
==
http://www.friktech.com/rel/canon/LXX.htm :
Development of the OT Text
The Septuagint
By about 400 BCE, there were enough Jews speaking Greek that it was thought
important to translate the growing Hebrew Bible into Greek. A few attempts
were apparently made, for most regard the Septuagint as not having been the
first translation into Greek, but rather as being a new translation which
compared existing Old Greek translations to the Hebrew texts that they
possessed.
During the third century BCE and before, the state of the Hebrew text of the
Bible was much freer than it became. Textual variants in the Hebrew account
for certain differences between the Greek translation and the standard Hebrew
text. The Greek translation we call the Septuagint appears to have been
translated (at least in part) in Alexandria, Egypt, during the third century
BCE by a group of translators. Tradition tells us that there were seventy or
seventy-two (6 from each tribe) of these translators, and it is the number 70
that gives us the nickname Septuagint (abbreviated LXX, Roman numeral 70).
The story of the translation became legend, and legend has it that the
translators prepared their versions separate from one another. Then, when they
compared, they found their translations word-for-word identical. This story is
a certain fabrication (dating to the second century BCE), and in reality the
exact number of translators is unknown. It is also possible that the original
corps of translators rendered only the Torah into Greek; the remainder of the
Hebrew Bible may have been translated later. Still, the LXX gave Hellenistic
(Greek-speaking) Jews a Bible to study and would later become the standard
Biblical text for Christians (until the language of Latin became more
dominant).
While the Greek translations were being prepared, the order of books in the
Prophets was not yet fixed, and the Writings was still an open collection.
Thus, the LXX differs somewhat from its Hebrew counterpart. The order of books
in the Hebrew Bible was essentially (though not entirely) chronological; the
Septuagint recollected the books according to theme. Thus, various prophetic
books were placed together, books dealing with wisdom were collected together,
and historical writings were assembled together. In addition, because of the
typical size of a scroll, the books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles became
two books each in the LXX.
Order of Books in the Septuagint
As indicated above, Christians normally employed the LXX Greek translation in
early years, preferring it to the Hebrew texts that they generally could not
read. In fact, Justin Martyr (c. 160 CE) regarded the LXX as the only reliable
text of the Old Testament, asserting that the Jews had deliberately corrupted
contemporary Hebrew texts.
==
Walter McCrone's classic "Judgment Day For The Shroud Of Turin:"
In the book McCrone
chronicles all the evidence indicating The Shroud was a 14th century painting
before it was carbon dated in 1988:
1) The contemporary 14th century Bishop reported to the Pope that it was a
painting and that he had talked to the artist.
2) The succesor Bishop complained to the Pope that this painting was being
fraudently presented as authentic.
3) There is no recorded history of the Shroud prior to the 14th century.
4) McCrone determined that the image of the Shroud consisted primarily of paint
materials common in the 14th century.
5) There is no evidence of any blood on "The Shroud".
McCrone chronicles just how well controlled the 1988 carbon dating test was.
The Church got to pick three independent laboratories who were then provided,
under supervision by the Church, unidentified samples from:
1) the cape of St. Louis d'Anjou known to date 1290-1310.
2) the mummy of Cleopatra from Thebes dated 6 BC.
3) the tomb of Qasr Ibrim dated 11-12 centuries CE.
4) The Shroud
The carbon dating results of all three laboratories for all the samples agreed
reasonably well with known dates and all three dated "The Shroud" 14th "
century
The Archbishop of Turin announced that he accepted the results of the carbon
dating and the related conclusion that "The Shroud" is circus 14th century.
==
"Which Bible is the Real Word of God?"   Barry Burton.
==
Christian reference books admit that the Hebrew conception of the world is that
it is a three-tiered structure:
1. A dome above us, which acts as a ceiling to hold back the waters
of the sky.
2. A flat earth, which is met by the 'dome' at its far reaches,
thereby making it a flat *circle*.
3. The underworld below, including the deep waters (with pillars to
hold up the flat earth).
As I said, most Christian dictionaries and reference books include
this information. There is also a thorough study of the Old
Testament references to the earth & universe available in Luis I J
Stadelman's "The Hebrew Conception of the World - A Philological &
Literary Study" (Rome: Pontifical Biblical Institute, 1970).
With this in mind, the reference in Isa 40:22 is rightly interpreted
in its context. It clearly refers to the 'circle' of the horizon
created by the intersection where the 'dome' above us touches the
earth.
Incidentally, the majority of scholars attribute this verse to a 6th
century writer, along with the remainder of Isaiah 40-55.

It is obvious that at least
some of deutero-Isaiah's contemporaries thought the world was a
globe. The Hebrews did not know this, though. In addition, there
are earlier Babylonian references to a spherical earth.
- Secondly, the use of the word hwg clearly relates to the dome of
heaven. Note the use of the phrase hwg smym which refers to the
heavens in Job 22:14, and the use of the phrase hwg h'rs in Isaiah
40:22. As the Christian scholar Luis Stadelmann states, the
heavenly dome is linked to the earth at the boundary.
As the NRSV translates Job 26:10, the Creator-God is said to:
describe a circle on the face of the waters, at the boundary between
light and darkness. At the far reaches of the flat earth, ie at its
boundary, God is described by the Hebrew writers as establishing a
circular boundary (hwg). This boundary is the dome of heaven, hwg
smym, at the point it meets the earth.
==
The account of
Jesus calming a storm and being asleep in a boat during the storm is a
direct steal from Jonah chapter 1 where Jonah is below deck asleep during a
violent storm while the crew are panicking. Peter's rooftop confession in
which he states he had never eaten anything unclean was taken directly from
Ezekiel chapter four almost verbatim. John liberally stole from the Old
Testament in his writing of Revelation while Matthew culled the prophets
such as Isaiah in order to construct many of the events and miracles of
Jesus' life. After comparing the original stories to their later
counterparts, it becomes evident that the Israelites borrowed liberally from
previous stories in order to enhance their own.
Recall that in the story of Jesus' birth, Herod ordered all male babies in
and around Bethlehem who were under two years old to be killed so that Jesus
would be killed also in the process. The idea of mass infanticide with a
miraculous escape by one very important baby was not a new concept to
Matthew. Compare Matthew's account to the story of Pharaoh's order to kill
all newborn male children.
Original Story
Exodus 1:22-2:10
22And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye
shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.
2 And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of
Levi. 2And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he
was a goodly child, she hid him three months. 3And when she could not longer
hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and
with pitch; and she put the child therein, and laid it in the flags by the
river's brink. 4And his sister stood afar off, to know what would be done to
him.
5And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to bathe at the river; and her
maidens walked along by the river-side; and she saw the ark among the flags,
and sent her handmaid to fetch it. 6And she opened it, and saw the child:
and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This is
one of the Hebrews' children. 7Then said his sister to Pharaoh's daughter,
Shall I go and call thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the
child for thee? 8And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maiden went
and called the child's mother. 9And Pharaoh's daughter said unto her, Take
this child away, and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And
the woman took the child, and nursed it. 10And the child grew, and she
brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called
his name Moses, and said, Because I drew him out of the water.
Here we have a depiction of mass infanticide ordered by Pharaoh. We get our
first glimpse of Moses as he is hidden and protected from this barbaric
decree. Of course, he escapes death to go on to greatness. Matthew borrows
from this to provide a reason why Jesus needed to be in Egypt to support
his twisted interpretation of Hosea 11:1. Here is the familiar passage of
Jesus who, like Moses,  narrowly escaped death in the mass murder of all
male children.
Borrowed Version
Matthew 2:13-18
13Now when they were departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth to
Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise and take the young child and his mother,
and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I tell thee: for Herod will
seek the young child to destroy him. 14And he arose and took the young child
and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt; 15and was there until the
death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord
through the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt did I call my son.
16Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the Wise-men, was exceeding
wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the male children that were in
Bethlehem, and in all the borders thereof, from two years old and under,
according to the time which he had exactly learned of the Wise-men. 17Then
was fulfilled that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
18A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for
her children; And she would not be comforted, because they are not.
Here, Matthew borrowed a concept, as opposed to exact details, from a
familiar Old Testament story, weaved it into the life of Jesus and then
claimed that it happened so that certain prophecies would be fulfilled.
The prophecies in question aren't even about any coming king or messiah.
Matthew twists them for his own intentions but that's a side road for
another article. Now, let's examine a more blatant case of borrowing.
Everyone knows about the miraculous event where Jesus fed more than five
thousand people with only five loaves of bread and two fish but were you
aware that the same kind of miracle was performed by Elisha in the book of
2nd Kings? Let's read the original story and then contrast it to Matthew's
borrowed and enhanced version.
Original Story
2nd Kings 4:42-44
42 A man came from Baal Shalishah, bringing the man of God twenty loaves of
barley bread baked from the first ripe grain, along with some heads of new
grain. Give it to the people to eat, Elisha said.
43 How can I set this before a hundred men? his servant asked.
But Elisha answered, Give it to the people to eat. For this is what the
LORD says: 'They will eat and have some left over.'  44 Then he set it
before them, and they ate and had some left over, according to the word of
the LORD.
The points of interest are as follows:
1. A large group of people were gathered without food
2. Elisha told one of his disciples to feed the group
3. His disciple protested about the number of people compared to the amount
of food
4. The people all received some food and were filled
5. After the meal, there was even some food left over
Now, compare that to Matthew's account.
Borrowed Version
Matthew 14:13-21
13 When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a
solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the
towns. 14 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on
them and healed their sick.
15 As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said,  This is a
remote place, and it's already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they
can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.
16 Jesus replied, They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.
17 We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish, they answered.
18 Bring them here to me, he said. 19 And he directed the people to sit
down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to
heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the
disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. 20 They all ate and
were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken
pieces that were left over. 21 The number of those who ate was about five
thousand men, besides women and children.
We see the same basic concepts that comprised Elisha's miraculous feat.
Here are the points again but the only difference is in who performed it and
the quantities of food and people.
1 A large group of people were gathered without food
2 Jesus told one of his disciples to feed the group
3 His disciple protested about the number of people compared to the amount
of food
4 The people all received some food and were filled
5 After the meal, there was even some food left over
Matthew borrows the story of Elisha feeding one hundred men and enhances it
to show that Jesus was even more powerful than Elisha by feeding fifty times
more people with less than half the food. Did Matthew have an agenda when
he went story searching? Was Matthew's intention to show that Jesus was the
Messiah a little too obvious here?
The story of Jonah being swallowed by a whale is familiar to everyone.
However, the events just prior to his becoming fish food are not easily
recalled by most Christians and probably even most professed scholars.
Compare the account of Jonah with the account of Jesus' miracle of calming a
storm.
Original Story
Jonah 1:4-6, 15
But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went down to
Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he
went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD. 4 Then the LORD
sent a great wind on the sea, and such a violent storm arose that the ship
threatened to break up. 5 All the sailors were afraid and each cried out to
his own god. And they threw the cargo into the sea to lighten the ship. But
Jonah had gone below deck, where he lay down and fell into a deep sleep. 6
The captain went to him and said, How can you sleep? Get up and call on
your god! Maybe he will take notice of us, and we will not perish.
15 Then they took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew
calm. 16 At this the men greatly feared the LORD, and they offered a
sacrifice to the LORD and made vows to him.
In the above excerpt, we see six important features.
1. Jonah was in a boat during a storm
2. The storm was so intense it threatened to capsize the boat
3. Jonah was asleep while the storm was raging
4. The crew was afraid and woke Jonah for help
5. The sea grew calm miraculously after Jonah left the ship
6. Once the sea had grown calm, those on the boat grew terrified
Now, let's read the account of Jesus calming the storm.
Borrowed Version
Mark 4:35-39
35 That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, Let us go over to
the other side. 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as
he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious
squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly
swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples
woke him and said to him, Teacher, don't you care if we drown?
39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, Quiet! Be still!
Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.
40 He said to his disciples, Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?
41 They were terrified and asked each other, Who is this? Even the wind and
the waves obey him!
In the above account, we can identify the same six features that appear in
Jonah's chronicle. We need only to replace the name Jonah with Jesus to
create the above account.
1. Jesus was in a boat during a storm
2. The storm was so intense it threatened to capsize the boat
3. Jesus was asleep while the storm was raging
4. The crew was afraid and woke Jesus for help
5. The sea grew calm miraculously after Jesus spoke to it
6. Once the sea had grown calm, those on the boat grew terrified
Could these two events, miraculous as they were, have actually happened
exactly as they are given to us in scripture? Except for being swallowed by
a large fish, is it possible that Jesus had the exact same experience that
Jonah did? Is it possible that the New Testament writers just
coincidentally included the very essence of the Jonah account with the one
necessary difference being that Jesus spoke to calm the sea? Or, is the
more plausible explanation found in the borrowing of an Old Testament story
for the sole purpose of constructing a miracle-filled life of Jesus?
===
Modern science is definitely comparable with medieval theology. When you
make the comparison fairly, its obvious that science produces positive,
useful results and medieval theology produced little but misery and
ignorance. Thats the comparison.

To meet the challenge of Arianism, which threatened to split the church,
the newly converted emperor Constantine convoked in 325 the first ecumenical
council of the Christian church at Nicaea. The private opinions of the
attending bishops were anything but unanimous, but the opinion that carried
the day was that espoused by the young presbyter Athanasius, who later
became Bishop of Alexandria. The Council of Nicaea determined that Christ
was begotten, not made, that he was therefore not creature but creator.
It also asserted that he was of the same essence as the Father
(homoousios to patri). In this way it made clear its basic opposition to
subordinationism, even though there could be, and were, quarrels about
details. It was not equally clear how the position of Nicaea and of
Athanasius differed from modalism. Athanasius asserted that it was not the
Father nor the Holy Spirit, but only the Son that became incarnate as Jesus
Christ. But in order to assert this, he needed a more adequate terminology
concerning the persons in the Holy Trinity. So the settlement at Nicaea
regarding the person of Christ made necessary a fuller clarification of the
doctrine of the Trinity, and that clarification in turn made possible a
fuller statement of the doctrine of the person of Christ. Constantinople.
Nicaea did not put an end to the controversies but only gave the parties
a new rallying point. Doctrinal debate was complicated by the rivalry among
bishops and theologians as well as by the intrusion of imperial politics
that had begun at Nicaea. Out of the post-Nicene controversies came that
fuller statement of the doctrine of the Trinity which was needed to protect
the Nicene formula against the charge of failing to distinguish adequately
between the Father and the Son. Ratified at the Council of Constantinople
in 381, but since lost, that statement apparently made official the
terminology developed by the supporters of Nicene orthodoxy in the middle
of the 4th century: one divine essence, three divine persons (mia ousia,
treis hypostaseis). The three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, were
distinct from one another but were equal in their eternity and power.

Jeremiah 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of
the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision
of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary
humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he
hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

When even the brightest mind in our world has been trained
up from childhood in a superstition of any kind, it will never be possible
for that mind, in its maturity, to examine sincerely, dispassionately, and
conscientiously any evidence or any circumstance which shall seem to cast
a doubt upon the validity of that superstition. Mark Twain

The author of Mark (lets call him Mark) had a political agenda which is
clearly evident. He was angry that the Roman emperor Titus destroyed
the Jerusalem temple in August 70 C.E. So he concocted a prophecy of Jesus
that the temple would be destroyed (See Mark 13.) This becomes a sign of
Jesus immanent return. Some believe that 13:8-10 and 14 is a cryptic
reference to the Book of Daniel and an implicit reinterpretation that that
Book was referring to the act of Titus and not the (Daniel contemporary)
alter to Zeus that Antioch established in the Jerusalem temple in 167
B.C.E. Such reinterpretations are a common theme in the Bible as Daniel
itself is a reinterpretation of the prophecies of Jeremiah. Daniel
predicts the end time as coming three and a half years after the abomination
of the temple (Dan 12:6-9) so in Marks reinterpretation, Jesus return and
the end times would be expected around 74 C.E. If this message wasnt
clear enough to his contemporary audience (and it likely was as this
reinterpretation was popular at the time), he adds two quotes of Jesus
stating that his (Jesus) contemporaries will not all be dead
before he returns (Mark 13:30 and 9:1.) This strengthens the time frame since
Jesus contemporaries would be expected to be dropping like flies by 70 C.E.
Scholars therefore place the writing of Mark between 71 and 74, probably at
the early end of that range.

Of course, Jesus didnt come anytime soon so Marks revisionists(lets call them
Matthew and Luke) prepared derivative texts which deleted reference to the
failed prophecies and corrected the numerous factual errors of Mark. These
manuscripts were probably written in the mid 80s and mid 100s respectively.

Abundant documentation of all this can be found in Who Wrote the Gospels by
Randel Helms.

MT 27:28 Jesus is given a scarlet robe (a sign of infamy).
MK 15:17, JN 19:2 A purple robe (a sign of royalty).

MT 27:44 Both of those who are crucified with Jesus taunt him.
LK 23:39-42 Only one taunts Jesus, and he is rebuked by the other for doing so.

MT 27:48, LK 23:36, JN 19:29 Jesus was offered vinegar to drink.
MK 15:23 It was wine and myrrh, and he did not drink it.
JN 19:29-30 Whatever it was, he did drink it.

There was a Canaanite god named Salem (or Solom, the vowels are as usual
uncertain). From Egyptian records of the El-Amarna period, it is pretty
certain that Jerusalem takes its name from this god -- rather like Beth-El
and so forth. There is some debate as to whether the names Absalom and
Solomon also come from this gods name, or from peace. El is a generic
name for God in Northwest Semitic (Hebrew and Ugaritic). Hebrew and the
Canaanite languages didnt (and dont) have capital vs. small letters.
El is the same two characters throughout the Hebrew text, whether it refers
to a generic pagan god, the Canaanite god El, or God.
This is one persons claim. Others have other opinions on the matter.
I have not verified it.
-----
The Second Epistle of Peter is generally believed to have been
written by an unknown person during the 2nd century. The Epistle has
been accepted as canonical since the 4th century.
==
A scholar in Jerusalem called Cyril, born AD 315, said ..the Holy Scripture,
the 22 books of the OT, which were translated by the 72. This shows that
even as late as AD 315, the authoritative Jewish scholars still recognized
their OT had only 22 books. No Apocrypha is found.
Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335-95): ..we make the Holy Scriptures the canon and the
rule of every dogma; we of necessity look upon that, and receive alone that
which may be made conformable to the intention of those writings. (On the Soul
and Resurrection).
We may rest assured that God would never have suffered any infants to be slain
except those who were already damned and predestined for eternal death.
[John Calvin, rationalizing the slaughter of infants in the Old Testament]
www.reformed.org/calvinism/boettner/infants_boettner.html
Calvin was against Michael Servitus being burned at the stake for that was an
ecclesiastical punishment. Calvin wanted him hanged, which was the civil
punishment. That way he would be removed from direct cause of his death.

On the morning of the fatal day, Calvin saw him, and Servetus, the victim,
asked forgiveness of Calvin, the murderer. Servetus was bound to the stake,
and the fagots were lighted. The wind carried the flames somewhat away from
his body, so that he slowly roasted for hours. Vainly he implored a speedy
death.
===
Giza Vermes, The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English 1997. ISBN 0-7139-9131-3.

The footnotes in The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible__ edited and translated by
Martin Abegg, Jr., Peter Flint, and Eugene Ulrich (Harper SanFrancisco,
1999, ISBN
0-06-060063-2) note 1480 variants between the DSS and MT versions of Isaiah.

According to Ernst Wurthwein, in his book "The Text of the Old
Testament" (Eerdman's, 1995, 2nd edition, translated by Erroll F.
Rhodes, page 33), The "Great Isaiah Scroll" (1QIsa^a) exhibits some
5,875 identifiable variations from the Masoretic text (MT). Of these
variants, some 4,500 are what the apologist Gleason Archer
calls "obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling", while
the remaining 1,375 represent significant variations from the
readings of the MT.
Now, according to Abraham Even-Shoshan, the MT of Isaiah has 16,920
words, so the total variation between it and the Dead Sea Scrolls
version runs to approximately 37.4 per cent. After discounting the
orthographic variants, one is STILL left with variations from the MT
which total some 8 per cent.
That's 8%. And that is startling evidence of a HUGE number of
discrepancies within the same language.

A good article on Jeremiah was in Bible Review, Oct 1999, titled, "The Man
Behind Jeremiah"  it tells of  the scrolls, 4QJerb and 4QJerd. They are the
earliest copies of the book of Jeremiah. The earliest copies have 3000 less
words then the Masoretic Text and the text is in a different order then the
Masoretic text.
==
Zion, Illinois, which was settled by flat-earthers. Some
of their literature is too absurd to believe, but they also want their
flat-earth theory to be given consideration in schools.
==
God is perfectly good. Even a single evil act in a lifetime
of sinlessness makes one fall infinitely short of God's
standard of perfect goodness, and thus constitutes grounds
for eternal punishment.
An equally invalid argument can be made the other way:
Satan is perfectly evil. Even a single good act in a lifetime
of evil makes one fall infinitely short of Satan's
standard of perfect evil, and thus constitutes grounds
for eternal reward.
This is an clear and outright contradiction of the argument
that any sin against a perfect God is an infinite sin.
==
Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other.
They slander each other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse
and cannot come to any sort of agreement in their teachings.
Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own with
deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to
its side.-- Celsus (2nd century C.E.)
==
Science is foremost, a method of interrogating reality... while
Creationism is a doctrine, whose adherents are interested only in seeking
out data to support it.

A fanatic is someone who knows what God would want if only He knew the
facts of the case. - unknown

There is no point of view big enough for the whole truth.

Sin is the disease invented by various religions so that they might
sell you the cure.

List of Bible horrors
http://web2.airmail.net/capella/aguide/attroc.htm
http://web2.airmail.net/capella/aguide/attroc2.htm
--
Early/Late Christianity Bible Study Tool
http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/nt.html

Bible Translation
http://www.mcn.net/~wleman/bibletranslation.htm

Bible Greek Resources
http://www.reslight.addr.com/biblegreek.html

The Bible, eTexts and Commentaries
http://christian.noval.dk/bible.html

Biblical Hermeneutics
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5948/body.htm

Jack Miles  God - A Biography

Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet by Bart D. Ehrman

The Gospel According to Jesus : A New Translation and Guide to His Essential
Teachings for Believers and Unbelievers by Stephen Mitchell

Deceptions and Myths of the Bible by Lloyd M. Graham

A. J. Heschels God in Search of Man

Roger Beckwiths book, The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church

The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy

Dr Ravi Zacharias _A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism_
Jesus amoung other Gods by Ravi Zacharias


Michael Martin's Atheism: A Philosophical Justification

What If The Bible Had Never Been Written
What If Jesus Had Never Been Born - both by James Kennedy.

Anderson, Joan W.: Where Angels Walk; True Stories of Heavenly Visions,
New York, 1992, Ballantine

Who Wrote The New Testament, Burton L. Mack, ISBN 0-06-065518-6
The Lost Gospel Of Q, Burton L. Mack, ISBN 0-06-065375-2
The Oxford Annotated Bible

Aristotle, Metaphysics. Translated by W. D. Ross. Translation found in
vol. 2 The Complete Works of Aristotle, edited by Jonathan Barnes.
Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey. 1984.

Armstrong, Karen. A History of God: The 4000-Year Quest of Judaism,
Christianity and Islam. Alfred A. Knopf, New York. 1994.

HOW GREEK PHILOSOPHY CORRUPTED THE
CHRISTIAN CONCEPT OF GOD (Horizon Pub., 1998, Bountiful, UT.)

THE COURT-MARTIAL OF JESUS by Weddig Fricke

*Bandits, Prophets, and Messiahs: Popular Movements at the Time of Jesus*
(Harper & Row, 1985), authors Richard Horsley and John Hanson tell of several
Messianic prophets of this period besides Theudas and Judas of Galilee, whom
Gamaliel mentioned in his speech. Some of these Messiahs were even named Jesus,
and most of them came to ignominious ends at the  hands of either the  Romans
or their own countrymen.

Selected Bibliography
Babylonian Genesis, The; Alexander Heidel, The University of Chicago Press,
Chicago, 1963
Birth of the Gospel, The; William Benjamin Smith, Philosophical Library,
New York, 1957
Case Against Christianity, The; Michael Martin, Temple University Press,
Philadelphia, 1991
Atheism:A Philosophical Justification  Michael Martin,
Documents for the Study of the Gospels; David R. Cartlidge & David L.
Dungan, William Collins Publishers, New York, 1980
Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis; Robert Graves & Raphael Patai,
McGraw-Hill Book Company, New York, 1966
Historical Approach to the Bible, The; Howard M. Teeple, Religion and
Ethics Institute, Evanston, Illinois, 1982
Historical Introduction to the New Testament, A;
Robert M. Grant, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1972
Is that in the Bible?; Dr. Charles F. Potter, Fawcett Books, Greenwich,
Connecticut
Is the Bible True?; David Robert Ord & Robert B. Coote, Orbis Books,
Maryknoll, New York, 1994
Jesus -- An Historians Review of the Gospels; Michael Grant, Charles
Scribners and Sons, New York, 1977
Literary Origin of the Gospel of John, The; Howard M. Teeple, Religion and
Ethics Institute, Evanston, Illinois, 1974
Myth of God Incarnate, The; Ed. John Hick, The Westminster Press,
Philadelphia, 1977
Nature and Origin of the New Testament, The; J. Merle Rife, Philosophical
Library, New York, 1975
New Oxford Annotated Bible, The; Ed. Bruce M. Metzger & Roland E. Murphy,
Oxford University Press, New York, 1991
Noahs Ark Nonsense, The; Howard M. Teeple, Religion and Ethics Institute,
Evanston, Illinois, 1978
Origins of Christianity, The; Schuyler Brown, Oxford University Press, New
York, 1984
Origins of Christianity, The; R. Joseph Hoffman, Prometheus Books, Buffalo,
New York, 1985
Sources of the Doctrines of the Fall & Original Sin; F. R. Tennant,
Schoken Books, New York, 1968
Two Creation Stories in Genesis, The; James S Forrester-Brown, Shambhala,
Berkeley, California, 1974
What the Bible Really Says; Manfred Barthel, William Morrow and Company,
New York, 1982
Where is Noahs Ark?; Lloyd R. Bailey, Festival Books, Nashville, 1978
Who Wrote the Bible?; Richard Elliot Friedman, Harper and Row, New York, 1989

Dr. F. F. Bruce, The Canon of Scripture, Intervarsity Press, 1988).
G.A. Wells Did Jesus Exist?

The Jews never mention Abrahams bosom. but Jesus goes right to it.

Colliers asserts in the 1963 edition that when the Engel vs Vitale
case was passed that an estimated 75 percent of the school systems in the SOUTH
had chapel services and Bible readings (pg.224) yet in the 1964 edition (pg.
238) it reveals that the SOUTH has the highest murder rates!

Why does the Christian not want his beliefs challenged? The only reason I can
imagine that might cause a person to not want his beliefs challenged is his
fear that they might be disproved. I seek challenge to everything that I
believe, partly because Im confident that my beliefs will withstand such
scrutiny and partly because if they are falsehoods I want to be made aware
of that fact. I have no use for clinging to falsehoods. Do you? And if
youre confident that your beliefs are true, then what harm could come from
challenging them? Yet it is the very act of challenge that you condemn:
You call it negativity.

DEUTERONOMY 3:6; 7:1-6; 20:1-20; NUMBERS 21:34-35;
JOSUAH 10:28:28-40 AND 1 SAM.15:2-19 are all about God commanding genocide.


---
The Hebrew ALMA, in Isiah 7;14, means young woman of a
marriageable age, not necessarily a virgin. Had
Isaiah wanted to specify a virgin, he would have used the Hebrew
word bithulah.

Here is one claim about the matter.
Gnosticism wasnt officially made a heresy until the Theodosian
laws of 380 A.D. Until then it was just one of many competing groups.
A gnostic named Marcion is RESPONSIBLE for the first NT.

An alternate view on this is at
http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/09645c.htm

A heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 at Rome by Marcion and continuing in
the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially
outside the Byzantine Empire. They rejected the writings of the Old
Testament and taught that Christ was not the Son of the god of the Jews,
but the Son of the good God, who was different from the god of the Ancient
Covenant. They anticipated the more consistent dualism of Manichaeism
and were finally absorbed by it. As they arose in the very infancy of
Christianity and adopted from the beginning a strong ecclesiastical
organization, parallel to that of the Catholic Church, they were perhaps
the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known.

The gnostics were the members of the various ancient sects known by that name:
Sethians, Marcionites, Naasenes, Valentininians, and so on. Despite their
differences, they had certain common elements, most notably a sharp distinction
between the Creator and God. From the gnostic perspective, the Creator is a
mere demiurge: ignorant, arrogant, evil, and/or insane in keeping with the
cosmos that he made and rules.

I Corinthians 14:33 (For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace,
as in all churches of the saints.
Did God confuse the tongues at Babel, supposedly?
Is the God of the OT the one who commanded conquest, genocide and baby
slaughter?

JN 3:17, 8:15, 12:47 Jesus does not judge.
JN 5:22, 5:27-30, 9:39, AC 10:42, 2CO 5:10 Jesus does judge.

JN 5:22 God does not judge.
RO 2:2-5, 3:19, 2TH 1:5, 1PE 1:17 God does judge.

JN 5:24 Believers do not come into judgement.
MT 12:36, 2CO 5:10, HE 9:27, 1PE 1:17, JU 1:14-15, RE 20:12-13

NEW TESTAMENT CONTRADICTIONS

I. THE BIRTH OF JESUS

A. THE GENEALOGIES OF JOSEPH

1. Matthew and Luke disagree

Matthew and Luke give two contradictory genealogies for Joseph (Matthew
1:2-17 and Luke 3:23-38). They cannot even agree on who the father of
Joseph was. Church apologists try to eliminate this discrepancy by
suggesting that the genealogy in Luke is actually Marys, even though Luke
says explicitly that it is Josephs genealogy (Luke 3:23). Christians have
had problems reconciling the two genealogies since at least the early
fourth century. It was then that Eusebius, a Church Father, wrote in his
The History of the Church, each believer has been only too eager to dilate
at length on these passages.
2. Why genealogies of Joseph?
Both the genealogies of Matthew and Luke show that Joseph was a direct
descendant of King David. But Joseph is not Jesus father, then Josephs
genealogies are meaningless as far as Jesus is concerned, and one has to
wonder why Matthew and Luke included them in their Gospels.

The church had now created two major problems: 1) to explain away the
existence of two genealogies of Joseph, and 2) to explain how Jesus was a
descendant of David.

The apostle Paul says that Jesus was born of the seed of David (Romans
1:3). Here the word seed is literally in the Greek sperma. This same
Greek word is translated in other verses as descendant(s) or offspring.
The point is that the Messiah had to be a physical descendant of King David
through the male line. That Jesus had to be a physical descendant of David
means that even if Joseph had legally adopted Jesus (as some apologists
have suggested), Jesus would still not qualify as Messiah if he had been
born of a virgin - seed from the line of David was required.
Women did not count in reckoning descent for the simple reason that it was
then believed that the complete human was present in the mans sperm (the
womans egg being discovered in 1827). The womans womb was just the soil
in which the seed was planted. Just as there was barren soil that could not
produce crops, so also the Bible speaks of barren wombs that could not
produce children.
This is the reason that although there are many male genealogies in the
Bible, there are no female genealogies. This also eliminates the
possibility put forward by some apologists that Jesus could be of the seed
of David through Mary.
B. THE DATE
According to Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great
(Matthew 2:1). According to Luke, Jesus was born during the first census in
Israel, while Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). This is
impossible because Herod died in March of 4 BC and the census took place in
6 and 7 AD, about 10 years after Herods death.

Some Christians try to manipulate the text to mean this was the first
census while Quirinius was governor and that the first census of Israel
recorded by historians took place later. However, the literal meaning is
this was the first census taken, while Quirinius was governor ... In any
event, Quirinius did not become governor of Syria until well after Herods
death.

C. THE PLACE

Both Matthew and Luke say that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Matthew quotes
Micah 5:2 to show that this was in fulfillment of prophecy. Actually,
Matthew misquotes Micah (compare Micah 5:2 to Matthew 2:6). Although this
misquote is rather insignificant, Matthews poor understanding of Hebrew
will have great significance later in his Gospel.

Luke has Mary and Joseph travelling from their home in Nazareth in Galilee
to Bethlehem in Judea for the birth of Jesus (Luke 2:4). Matthew, in
contradiction to Luke, says that it was only after the birth of Jesus that
Mary and Joseph resided in Nazareth, and then only because they were afraid
to return to Judea (Matthew 2:21-23).

In order to have Jesus born in Bethlehem, Luke says that everyone had to go
to the city of their birth to register for the census. This is absurd, and
would have caused a bureaucratic nightmare. The purpose of the Roman census
was for taxation, and the Romans were interested in where the people lived
and worked, not where they were born (which they could have found out by
simply asking rather than causing thousands of people to travel).

D. THE PROPHECIES

Matthew says that the birth of Jesus and the events following it fulfilled
several Old Testament prophecies. These prophecies include:

1. The virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14)
This verse is part of a prophecy that Isaiah relates to King Ahaz regarding
the fate of the two kings threatening Judah at that time and the fate of
Judah itself. In the original Hebrew, the verse says that a young woman
will give birth, not a virgin which is an entirely different Hebrew word.
The young woman became a virgin only when the Hebrew word was mistranslated
into Greek.

This passage obviously has nothing to do with Jesus (who, if this prophecy
did apply to him, should have been named Immanuel instead of Jesus).

2. The slaughter of the innocents (Jeremiah 31:15)
Matthew says that Herod, in an attempt to kill the newborn Messiah, had all
the male children two years old and under put to death in Bethlehem and its
environs, and that this was in fulfillment of prophecy.

This is a pure invention on Matthews part. Herod was guilty of many
monstrous crimes, including the murder of several members of his own
family. However, ancient historians such as Josephus, who delighted in
listing Herods crimes, do not mention what would have been Herods
greatest crime by far. It simply didnt happen.

The context of Jeremiah 31:15 makes it clear that the weeping is for the
Israelites about to be taken into exile in Babylon, and has nothing to do
with slaughtered children hundreds of years later.

3. Called out of Egypt (Hosea 11:1)
Matthew has Mary, Joseph and Jesus fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod, and
says that the return of Jesus from Egypt was in fulfillment of prophecy
(Matthew 2:15). However, Matthew quotes only the second half of Hosea 11:1.
The first half of the verse makes it very clear that the verse refers to
God calling the Israelites out of Egypt in the exodus led by Moses, and has
nothing to do with Jesus.

As further proof that the slaughter of the innocents and the flight into
Egypt never happened, one need only compare the Matthew and Luke accounts
of what happened between the time of Jesus birth and the familys arrival
in Nazareth. According to Luke, forty days (the purification period) after
Jesus was born, his parents brought him to the temple, made the prescribed
sacrifice, and returned to Nazareth. Into this same time period Matthew
somehow manages to squeeze: the visit of the Magi to Herod, the slaughter
of the innocents and the flight into Egypt, the sojourn in Egypt, and the
return from Egypt. All of this action must occur in the forty day period
because Matthew has the Magi visit Jesus in Bethlehem before the slaughter
of the innocents.

E. THE TRUTH BEHIND THE PROPHECIES - MATTHEWS BIG BLUNDER
Since the prophecies mentioned above do not, in their original context,
refer to Jesus, why did Matthew include them in his Gospel? There are two
possibilities:

1. The church says that the words had a hidden future context as well as
the original context, ie, God was keeping very important secrets from His
chosen people.

2. Matthew, in his zeal to prove that Jesus was the Messiah, searched the
Old Testament for passages (sometimes just phrases) that could be construed
as messianic prophecies and then created or modified events in Jesus life
to fulfill those prophecies.

Fortunately for those who really want to know the truth, Matthew made a
colossal blunder later in his Gospel which leaves no doubt at all as to
which of the above possibilities is true. His blunder involves what is
known as Jesus triumphant entry into Jerusalem riding on a donkey (if you
believe Mark, Luke or John) or riding on two donkeys (if you believe
Matthew). In Matthew 21:1-7, two animals are mentioned in three of the
verses, so this cannot be explained away as a copying error. And Matthew
has Jesus riding on both animals at the same time, for verse 7 literally
says, on them he sat.

Why does Matthew have Jesus riding on two donkeys at the same time? Because
he misread Zechariah 9:9 which reads in part, mounted on a donkey, and on
a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Anyone familiar with Old Testament Hebrew would know that the word
translated and in this passage does not indicate another animal but is
used in the sense of even (which is used in many translations) for
emphasis. The Old Testament often uses parallel phrases which refer to the
same thing for emphasis, but Matthew was evidently not familiar with this
usage. Although the result is rather humorous, it is also very revealing.
It demonstrates conclusively that Matthew created events in Jesus life to
fulfill Old Testament prophecies, even if it meant creating an absurd
event. Matthews Gospel is full of fulfilled prophecies. Working the way
Matthew did, and believing as the church does in future contexts, any
phrase in the Bible could be turned into a fulfilled prophecy!

F. CONCLUSIONS REACHED SO FAR
From looking at just the birth accounts several conclusions can be reached,
all of which will be further reinforced by examining other parts of the New
Testament:

1. The Gospel writers contradict each other.
2. The Gospel writers rewrote history when it suited their purposes.
3. The Gospels were extensively edited to accommodate the evolving dogma of
the church.
4. The Gospel writers misused the Old Testament to provide prophecies for
Jesus to fulfill.
From the birth accounts alone, it is obvious that in no way can the New
Testament be considered the inerrant Word of God, or even the Word of
God, inerrant regarding matters important to faith and practice.

II. JESUS AND JOHN THE BAPTIST
A. WHAT DID JOHN THE BAPTIST KNOW ABOUT JESUS AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT?
Johns first encounter with Jesus was while both of them were still in
their mothers wombs, at which time John, apparently recognizing his
Saviour, leaped for joy (Luke 1:44). Much later, while John is baptizing,
he refers to Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the
world, and the Son of God (John 1:29,36). Later still, John is thrown in
prison from which he does not return alive. Johns definite knowledge of
Jesus as the son of God and saviour of the world is explicitly contradicted
by Luke 7:18-23 in which the imprisoned John sends two of his disciples to
ask Jesus, Are you the one who is coming, or do we look for someone else?

B. WHY DID JOHN BAPTIZE JESUS?
John baptized for repentance (Matthew 3:11). Since Jesus was supposedly
without sin, he had nothing to repent of. The fact that he was baptized by
John has always been an embarrassment to the church. The Gospels offer no
explanation for Jesus baptism, apart from the meaningless explanation
given in Matthew 3:14-15 to fulfill all righteousness. Other passages,
which indicate that Jesus did not consider himself sinless, are also an
embarrassment to the church (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19).
Luke, who claims to be chronological (Luke 1:3), tries to give the
impression that John did not baptize Jesus. Lukes account of Jesus
baptism occurs after the account of Johns imprisonment (Luke 3:20-21).
C. WHY DIDNT JOHN THE BAPTIST BECOME A FOLLOWER OF JESUS?
If John knew that Jesus was the son of God, why didnt he become a disciple
of Jesus? And why didnt all, or even most, of Johns disciples become
Jesus disciples? Most of Johns disciples remained loyal to him, even
after his death, and a sect of his followers persisted for centuries.
The Gospel writers were forced to include Jesus baptism in their Gospels
so that they could play it down. They could not ignore it because Johns
followers and other Jews who knew of Jesus baptism were using the fact of
his baptism to challenge the idea that Jesus was the sinless son of God.
The Gospel writers went to great pains to invent events that showed John as
being subordinate to Jesus.

III. THE LAST SUPPER
A. WHEN - BEFORE OR DURING PASSOVER?
In Matthew, Mark and Luke the last supper takes place on the first day of
the Passover (Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7). In Johns Gospel it
takes place a day earlier and Jesus is crucified on the first day of the
Passover (John 19:14).
B. THE LORDS SUPPER - INSTITUTED BY JESUS OR PAUL?
In Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus institutes the Lords Supper during the
Passover meal (in Johns Gospel the Lords Supper is not instituted - Jesus
was dead by the time of the Passover meal).
In 1 Corinthians 11:23 the apostle Paul writes, For I received from the
Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night
in which He was betrayed took bread... Here Paul claims that he got the
instructions for the Lords Supper directly from Jesus (evidently from one
of his many revelations). Paul writes these words about twenty years after
Jesus death, and had the church already been celebrating the Lords Supper
he certainly would have been aware of it and would have had no need to
receive it from the Lord. Some apologists try to play games with the text
to make it seem like Paul actually received the instructions from the other
apostles, but one thing Paul stresses is that what he teaches he receives
from no man (Galatians 1:11-12).

The Lords supper was not invented by Paul, but was borrowed by him from
Mithraism, the mystery religion that existed long before Christianity and
was Christianitys chief competitor up until the time of Constantine. In
Mithraism, the central figure is the mythical Mithras, who died for the
sins of mankind and was resurrected. Believers in Mithras were rewarded
with eternal life. Part of the Mithraic communion liturgy included the
words, He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he
will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know
salvation.
The early Church Fathers Justin Martyr and Tertullian tried to say that
Mithraism copied the Lords Supper from Christianity, but they were forced
to say that demons had copied it since only demons could copy an event in
advance of its happening! They could not say that the followers of Mithras
had copied it - it was a known fact that Mithraism had included the ritual
a long time before Christ was born.
Where did Mithraism come from? The ancient historian Plutarch mentioned
Mithraism in connection with the pirates of Cilicia in Asia Minor
encountering the Roman general Pompey in 67 BC. More recently, in 1989
Mithraic scholar David Ulansey wrote a book, The Origins of the Mithraic
Mysteries, in which he convincingly shows that Mithraism originated in the
city of Tarsus in Cilicia. That this is also the home town of the apostle
Pa7
The other thing I notice is a major argument
is the place of David in history and the reality of
Jerusalem in his day. The Bible claims that the reigns
of David and Solomon were glorious, they probably
were not.
But, any argument on the reality of Moses, the exodus,
ect, seem to end up being about David, the maximalists
soon change the subject, much slicker than the usual
internet trolls, try the active political newsgroups
where any meaningful criticism of the GOP or Bush
immediately seems to become a series of rants about
Bill Clinton's penis by the far right.
So I have yet to see any real debates about the
collapse of Biblical history as far as the Egyptian captivity,
the exodus, Moses doings, Joshua's invasion of
Canaan, the real origins of Israel/Judea and what that means
for Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, all of which
take Moses on the mount as real and make it a foundational
belief in their religions.

This David/Solomon red herring/strawman is most notable
in past issues of the Biblical Archaeology Review.
We have a situation here wherein Archaeology has dealt
a fatal blow to the root of the world's most popular
religions, and few people have the courage to admit
it.
If the exodus/Moses stories are false, there was no Moses
on the mount, the law is a priestly fantasy, not the
word of the Lord himself, then everything has changed.
Hardly anybody has the guts to note that and challenge
the world with the realization that most of the
world's religions are based on falasities and frauds.

====
I don't want to debate the pros and cons of Daniel Lazare's March 2002
Harper's Magazine article False Testament, other than to hypothesize that
archaeological discoveries seem to leave ground for opinion and
speculation.
Some people say there is no trace of any artifacts or bones that should
have been left behind on an exodus of the israeli people from Egypt - of
course, the number of people involved has always been debated, even by
jewish bible commentators.
My own uneducated thought on this is: big desert; lot of sand must have
accumulated, too.
The 1997 book The Gold of Exodus is about Howard Blum's and Larry
William's (yes, the commodity trader) adventurous personal expedition into
Saudi Arabia, attempting to confirm an alternate exodus route. There they
believe they discovered the remains of the stone altar where the Golden
Calf
was worshipped, the 12 pillars Moses erected, and the fire-scorched top of
Jabal al Lawz mountain.
So maybe there's some interpretation present, but it's not hard to
read, and it's got some photos.
====
And John 12 says of the same idea and broader passage from Isaiah that they
could not believe because they WOULD not believe.  Jesus didnt feed those
that werent hungry and didnt teach those that didnt want to learn.
====
Lets re debate this one about the omnipresence of God and what you believe
to be the lack thereof according to ur interpretation of Gen 18.
====
Tim
Are you saying you can prove the spirit of Allah DOES NOT live in believers?
Requiring I prove a universal negative is a form of an argument from ignorance.
The burden of proof is entirely on you to prove that the spirit of Jesus lives
within you. If you can't (and I know you can't) then you may as well claim you
have the spirit of Bozo the Clown living inside you.
Tim
No, let's see you answer the question. Is Yahweh (Allah) omnipresent, or isn't
he?
As to the Genesis debate, you lied in this forum when you claimed I filtered
you because I was afraid of your reasoning in those series of posts.
So, I demand (again) that you post the archive location of this post that
caused me to run away. As far as I am concerned you lost that debate and there
is nothing for me to re-open, re-explore, or re-examine.
Tim
[2:115] To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the
presence of GOD. GOD is Omnipresent, Omniscient.
Even if the Koran didn't say this, it does not include all of the teachings of
Islam anyway. They believe in the Torah and I have shown where the Torah
teaches (according to you) that God is omnipresent.
Until you reply, my point stands.
Tim
Then Yahweh (Allah) was no more present in the OT than he was for unbelievers.
You are screwed and you know it.
You obviously had no idea that Islam uses at least the early part of the OT
for
the basis of its religion as well, and now you're stuck.
You've made many claims about the Koran so I insist that you quote the Koran
to
back up your claim here.
that
Tim
John 16 does not contain the word abode so I insist you provide us with
Chapter and verse. I don't see anything in John 16 that remotely supports
your claim.
John 17 (KJV)
1
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,
Father,
the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal
life
to as many as thou hast given him.
3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and
Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:3 (YLT)
3   and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true
God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;
These verses appear to be saying either
(1) The disciples have seen me rise (eternal life) so they will know you
(God)
and me (his son) or
(2) The disciples have seen me alive, and seen the things I've done, and
therefore know you (God) and me.
What I don't see is any support for your claim.
Tim
No answer? I can always tell when you've been had and this is clearly one
of those times.
____
====
No, Mark and Matthew show that he used parables to hide his
teachings, plus of course we had commands that his disciples
were only to preach to the lost sheep of Israel,not gentiles,
and other similar details. The woman at the well for example.
It wasn't that they didn't want to learn, but that the truth
was hidden from them, purposefully, with the expressed
idea that this was to prevent some from having their sins
forgiven.
No matter how you try to twist this, that is what Jesus
said.
The problem is, we have contradictory anonymous sources,
and John was the least familiar with the subject and the
last anonymous liar to write of things he knew little of.
====
TIM
Why should Tim have to prove this, Helpless? You are the one asserting
that the spirit of Jesus lives in believers, so it is your task to prove
that the spirit of a person who may never have existed lives in those who
believe in him.
I think it appropriate to adapt a NT statement attributed to Jesus to your
lingering ignorance of logic, Helpless.
Have you been so long with us on this newsgroup, and you still do not
understand that he who asserts must bear the burden of proof?
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@theramp.net
====
Let us remind ourselves of what Jesus said at these verses:
(Mat 16:27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with
his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
(Mat 16:28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which
shall
not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
How did did those alive then see Jesus coming in his kingdom? Did they live
for thousand of years? This scripture is related to the transfiguration of
Jesys. God's Kingdom and Christ's Transfiguration ***
God's Kingdom and Christ's Transfiguration
Why did the transfiguration miracle take place? What meaning has it for us
today?
MANY are the forms of government that man has tried and is trying. Though
some of these have represented the good intentions of men, impartial
judgment must admit that each form of human government has its serious
shortcomings. But let men take hope; the Creator, Jehovah God, has purposed
a righteous government for humankind. That government is the kingdom for
which Christians have been praying for some nineteen centuries.-Matt. 6:10.
When on earth Jesus Christ, the Son of God, began his ministry by
preaching,
The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near. After training his twelve
apostles for a time he sent them forth with this identical message and
later
he sent forth the seventy evangelizers to preach the same thing. In fact,
Jesus made that government or kingdom the theme of his ministry.-Matt.
4:17;
10:7; 13:24; Luke 10:9.
Just how far superior to human governments Jesus' government or kingdom
would be, he illustrated repeatedly. It would eliminate all physical
disease, for Jesus, the one anointed as king, went about curing every sort
of disease and every sort of infirmity among the people. That in his
kingdom mankind would never suffer from a shortage of food he indicated by
miraculously feeding thousands with a mere handful of loaves and fishes on
at least two occasions. And that, among many other blessings, even the dead
would be raised so as to be able to benefit from his kingdom Jesus showed
by
raising persons from the dead.-Matt. 4:23; 14:14-20; John 11:43, 44.
After more than two years of preaching the kingdom of God and of performing
miracles illustrating its blessings, Jesus Christ commenced showing his
disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the older
men and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be
raised up. This was indeed something unexpected. No wonder Peter raised
strenuous objections. He and the rest of Jesus' disciples were looking
forward to an earthly, visible government to be established in the
immediate
future.-Matt. 16:21-23; Acts 1:6.
In this connection Jesus further told his disciples: Truly I say to you
that there are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all
until first they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Doubtless here
was to be something that would reassure those who saw it as to the reality
of the kingdom that Jesus and they had been preaching. How were those words
of his fulfilled?-Matt. 16:28.
THE TRANSFIGURATION SCENE
Without doubt Jesus had reference to the transfiguration scene that took
place about a week later, for Matthew, Mark and Luke all record it in
detail
immediately after those words of Jesus. More than that, the apostle Peter
indicates the same in his reference to it. (2 Pet. 1:16-19) Matthew's
account of it reads:
Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John his brother along and
brought them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was
transfigured
before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became
brilliant as the light. And, look! there appeared to them Moses and Elijah,
conversing with him. Responsively Peter said to Jesus: 'Lord, it is fine
for
us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you and
one for Moses and one for Elijah.' While he was yet speaking, look! a
bright
cloud overshadowed them, and, look! a voice out of the cloud, saying: 'This
is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to him.' At hearing
this the disciples fell upon their faces and became very much afraid. Then
Jesus came near and, touching them, said: 'Get up and have no fear.' When
they raised their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus himself only.-Matt.
17:1-8.
Truly this was an unusual incident; but was not the ministry of Jesus
filled
with unusual incidents? It was no mere dream, as is shown by the fact that
three men witnessed it at the same time. This account fits in perfectly
with
the context, both as to what is recorded before it and what is recorded
after. Its various detailed features also stamp it as truth. And we have
the
inspired record of it by three Gospel writers, Matthew, Mark and Luke, as
well as the apostle Peter's reference to it.-Mark 9:1-8; Luke 9:28-36; 2
Pet. 1:16-19.
Where did the transfiguration take place? While the accounts do not name
the
place, it most likely was on a ridge of Mount Hermon, it being a lofty
mountain and in the vicinity where Jesus and his apostles were at the time.
Also, it appears that the transfiguration took place at night-a reasonable
deduction in view of what the Gospel writer Luke tells us: Now Peter and
those with him were weighed down with sleep, and that they came down from
the mountain on the succeeding day. This would make the transfiguration of
Christ so much more striking and memorable, for it was intended to be
something truly outstanding.-Luke 9:32, 37.
Were Moses and Elijah actually there in person, as some in Christendom
teach? How could they have been there when the Bible tells us that Jesus
Christ is the first-born from the dead? And did not Peter tell the Jews
that even God-fearing David had not been raised from the dead but his
tomb
is among us to this day? If David was still sleeping in death, so were
Moses and Elijah.-Rev. 1:5; Acts 2:29.
Then how are we to account for the appearance of Moses and Elijah on that
mountain? Jesus explains by his words to his three apostles: Tell the
vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead. There
we
have it: it was a vision as far as the presence of Moses and Elijah was
concerned. And what was the purpose of it?-Matt. 17:9.
ITS PURPOSE
Clearly the purpose of the transfiguration scene was to strengthen the
faith
of those who witnessed it, that Jesus Christ was indeed God's Son and the
King of God's kingdom and that that Kingdom would truly be a glorious one.
It also served to strengthen their faith in all that the Scriptures had said
regarding these men and to make the inspired Word of prophecy more firm. As
the apostle Peter well noted:
No, it was not by following artfully contrived false stories that we
acquainted you with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but it
was by having become eyewitnesses of his magnificence. For he received from
God the Father honor and glory, when words such as these were borne to him
by the magnificent glory: 'This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have
approved.' Yes, these words we heard borne from heaven while we were with
him in the holy mountain. Consequently we have the prophetic word made more
sure; and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining
in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in your hearts.-2
Pet. 1:16-19.
Jehovah God himself had borne similar testimony when Jesus was baptized, but
this time there were three witnesses instead of only one (John the
Baptist),
and they were given the instruction: Listen to him. Unquestionably this
glorious transfiguration scene, with Jesus' face shining as the very sun and
his garments glistening white, far whiter than any clothes cleaner on earth
could whiten them, and with the very sound of Jehovah's voice bearing
testimony to his Son-with what power it must have spoken!-greatly
strengthened the faith of those three apostles.-Mark 9:3.
WHY MOSES AND ELIJAH?
But why were Moses and Elijah shown with Jesus? Moses was the greatest
prophet Israel ever had; he was also their deliverer, their lawgiver, their
mediator or go-between in the Law covenant made between Jehovah God and the
nation of Israel, their military commander (for the Israelites fought
battles under his command) and their leader for forty years, all through the
wilderness. Moses was also greatly used by Jehovah to make a name for Him
before Israel, before Pharaoh and his Egyptians as well as before
others.-Ex. 9:16, 17; 1 Sam. 6:6.
By having Moses appear in a vision with Jesus Christ, Jehovah God was
calling attention to the fact that Jesus in his heavenly kingdom would be
serving in all these capacities, even as God had foretold by his prophet
Moses; but it would be on a far larger and grander scale, as indicated by
Jesus' being transfigured. Through Moses, Jehovah had foretold: A prophet I
shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you; and I
shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them
all that I shall command him. Leaving no doubt that this prophecy referred
to Jesus Christ are the words of the apostle Peter to that effect.-Deut.
18:18; Acts 3:20-23.
Among other similarities that might be mentioned between Moses and the
Prophet greater than Moses are: The lives of both were put in jeopardy while
they were infants, theirs being uniquely or singularly spared; both spent
forty days fasting at the beginning of careers as Jehovah's special
servants; both were strongly opposed by leaders of false religion; both were
used by Jehovah to feed his people miraculously, and both appeared with
supernatural glory.
Why did the prophet Elijah appear in the transfiguration vision? For one
thing, he did a great work of restoring pure worship and vindicating Jehovah
's name among his people Israel, even as Jesus Christ did while on earth and
will yet do by means of his kingdom. More than that, Elijah's work
foreshadowed work to be done in the future, as indicated by the prophet
Malachi: Look! I am sending to you people Elijah the prophet before the
coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. And he must turn the
heart of fathers back toward sons, and the heart of sons back toward
fathers; in order that I may not come and actually strike the earth with a
devoting of it to destruction.-Mal. 4:5, 6.
This prophecy had fulfillment in the work that John the Baptist did, even as
Jesus showed right after the transfiguration scene; for in answer to his
disciples' question as to why the scribes said that Elijah must first come,
Jesus answered: 'Elijah, indeed, is coming and will restore all things.
However, I say to you that Elijah has already come and they did not
recognize him but did with him the things they wanted. In this way also the
Son of man is destined to suffer at their hands.' Then the disciples
perceived that he spoke to them about John the Baptist.-Matt. 17:10-13.
Since an Elijahlike work by means of John the Baptist was done to introduce
Jesus Christ, it was fitting that in the transfiguration vision Elijah
should appear with Jesus. However, what John the Baptist did was merely a
small-scale, miniature fulfillment of the prophecy of Malachi. How can that
be said? Because that prophecy said that such a work would be done preceding
the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah, which day is rapidly
approaching and which includes the war of the great day of God the
Almighty, Armageddon. Besides, the fact that Elijah was shown speaking with
Jesus after the death of John the Baptist would imply that there would be an
Elijahlike work to be done in the future. It meant that the then future
establishment of God's kingdom in Christ's hand would be preceded by a
forerunner like Elijah and that in connection with the kingdom of the Son of
God a work would be carried on that would correspond with the work of Elijah
and his successor Elisha. The facts show that for the past eighty years the
Christian witnesses of Jehovah have indeed been carrying on a work of
restoring pure worship and exalting the name of Jehovah.-Matt. 24:14; Rev.
16:14, 16.
The transfiguration scene, by showing Jesus in such a dazzling way,
represented his presence in Kingdom power and showed that he would do a work
like that of both Moses and Elijah. It powerfully reinforced in the minds of
those that witnessed it the testimony that Jesus gave as to his kingdom and
kingship by means of his preaching and his miracles. It might also be said
to have been perfectly timed; so as to strengthen their faith right after
Jesus had commenced telling them that he was destined to suffer and die,
whereas they were expecting the immediate establishment of God's kingdom
upon earth. Certainly Jesus' being transfigured so that his face shone as
the very sun and his garments glistened exceedingly white and the direct
testimony of Jehovah himself that Jesus was his beloved Son to whom they
should listen most effectively served its purpose.
Since, as the apostle Peter wrote, the transfiguration vision made the
prophetic Word of God more sure, it is indeed the course of wisdom to pay
attention to that Word as to a lamp shining in the darkness of this world.
What it says about Christ's kingdom government and the blessings it will
bring is certain to come to pass. It is therefore the course of wisdom for
you to learn more about Christ the King and his kingdom and give your
allegiance to his kingdom, letting it come first in your life. Heed the
admonition of Jesus Christ to 'keep on seeking first the kingdom of God and
His righteousness.' Then the shortcomings of human governments will not
unduly disturb you, but you will see in the worsening world conditions
evidence of the nearness of God's kingdom government.-Matt. 6:33; Luke
21:25-28.
[Footnotes]
The Greek word here translated transfigured is metamorph227o, and means to
change into another form (met207, implying change, and morph216, form).
It is the same word used at Romans 12:2 where Christians are counseled to be
transformed by making your mind over. The Greek word has been carried over
into the English with metamorphosis.-Expository Dictionary of New Testament
Words (1940) Vine, Vol. 4, pp. 148, 149.
See Dr. Adam Clarke's Commentary on Matthew 17:3.John
====
It has no meaning since the Transfiguration did not fulfill Matthew 16:28.
Matthew 16:27 (YLT)
27
For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father,
with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work.

28
Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not
taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.
1. Verse 27 says about. None of the events in verse 27 have occurred
even though the wording indicates imminence.
2. There were no angels at the Transfiguration, and no one was
judged.
3. Matthew mentions no prophecy fulfillment at the transfiguration,
despite his zeal in showing 9 prophecy fulfillments up to this point.
4. There is no other language in the transfiguration account to indicate
prophecy fulfillment.
5.Using this logic v.28 reads:
Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not
taste of death till they may see event which occurs next
Jesus looks like quite a prophet here.
6. Matthew 24:27-30 gives the signs of the coming of the son of man
into his kingdom, and one of those signs will be that everyone can see
it. Perhaps you can explain how everyone saw the transfiguration.
Tim
So does a Kingdom, a form of government long since rejected by reasonable
people.
Matthew 6 (RSV)
9   Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy
name.
10   Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
Tim
Yes, and we're still waiting.
Tim
You forgot a few.
MATTHEW 10:23 (NIV)
When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I TELL YOU THE
TRUTH, YOU WILL NOT FINISH GOING THROUGH THE CITIES OF ISRAEL BEFORE
THE SON OF MAN COMES.
COLOSSIANS 1:23 (NIV)
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from
the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you  heard
and THAT HAS BEEN PROCLAIMED TO EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN, and of
which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Romans 10:18
Their voice has gone out into the all the
earth, their words to the ends of the world.
Matthew 24:14 (NIV)
And this gospel will be preached in the
whole world as a testimony to all nations,
AND THEN THE END WILL COME.
<snip irrelevant material>
Tim
Which didn't happen which makes the prophecy false.
Where did you cut and paste this nonsense from?
Aren't you capable of formulating an argument yourself?
Tim
They weren't.
Tim
Well, here we have John contradicting himself. John simultaneously tries to
claim that the Transfiguration fulfills Matthew 16:28 because it happens
shortly after Jesus' words and yet he inserts 2000 or more years between
the
words of v.27 and v.28.
Do you think you could be more consistent John?
<snip II Peter reference>
Tim
I snipped this because Peter didn't write 2 Peter:
www.encarta.com
The Second Epistle is addressed to all Christians.
Ecclesiastical tradition has attributed both Epistles to Saint Peter,
but modern scholars have questioned Peter's authorship of the First
Epistle, and most have doubted his authorship of the Second Epistle.
and further
The Second Epistle of Peter is generally believed to have been
written by an unknown person during the 2nd century. The Epistle has
been accepted as canonical since the 4th century. It was written to
strengthen the Christian belief in the second coming of Christ, a
belief that had been attacked and ridiculed as ill-founded
Eusebius, a church father who lived at a time much closer to the authorship of
2 Peter than you, wrote:
Eusebius  THE CHURCH HISTORY OF EUSEBIUS.
Book III
Chapter III. The Epistles of the Apostles.
1 One epistle of Peter, that called the first, is acknowledged as
genuine.16
And this the ancient
elders17 used freely in their own writings as an undisputed work.18 But we have
learned that his
extant second Epistle does not belong to the canon;19 yet, as it has appeared
profitable to many, it has been used with the other Scriptures.20
Tim
Too bad Matthew 24 claims EVERYONE will see the coming of the Son of Man.
Tim
No it doesn't. See problems 1-6 above and Matthew 10, Matthew 24 references
below. You ignore the context.
Tim
I would like you to provide evidence in this forum that these books were
written by those you claim.
<snip more irrelevant material>
Tim
The word kingdom is not mentioned anywhere in the Transfiguration account.
Tim
It leaves plenty of doubt because Luke wasn't any better at avoiding
argument
by assertion than you are.
I would like for you to show us that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Deut. 18
without begging the question of the accuracy of the New Testament.
Tim
Which means nothing more than the Gospel writers were good at copying. Do you
have any independent historical attestation of the slaughter of the innocents?
<snip yet more irrelevant material>
Tim
Again, despite your pasting reams of irrelevant material,the word Kingdom
does not appear in the description of the Transfiguration and Matthew mentions
no prophecy fulfillment.
So, your interpretation, in addition to creating problems 1-6 above, is
unsupported by the text.
Tim
Actually it would be better to pay attention to the fact that Peter did not
write 2 Peter.
<snip sermon about false Kingdom>
Tim
Why, is he any better at providing evidence for his assertions than you are?


====..
TIM
No Tim. You have made a false analogy here. Matthew was citing OT prophecies
fulfilled in CHrist. Jesus fulfilling a prophecy 6 days after its utterance
is not a prophecy at all any more than next week Im gonna take a trip to
San Jose is a fulfillment if the trip actually transpires
====
Tim
My analogy can't be false because I didn't draw an analogy.
What you have done is introduce a red herring because the fact that Matthew
frequently cited Jesus' fulfillment of OT prophecies would not prevent
him
from commenting on the Transfiguration as the fulfillment of Matthew 16:28.
It should tell you something that NONE of the Gospel writers mentioned the
Transfiguration as the fulfillment of Matthew 16:28.
Tim
You contradict yourself again. First you claim it is a prophecy, then claim
it
isn't. Once again, I'll just use the dictionary:
www.m-w.com
1 : an inspired utterance of a prophet
2 : the function or vocation of a prophet; specifically : the inspired
declaration of divine will and purpose
3 : a prediction of something to come.
So, it appears you are wrong (again).
Tim
Thank you once again for pointing out the absurdity of saying some
standing
here will not taste of death about an event that occured 6 days later.
====
Once again, context.
Matthew 16:27-8 tells us he will come in his kingdom
and reward all men according to their acts.
Matthew 25 tells us more.
Come in his kingdom means just that, Jesus will be
King and sit on his throne, see Matthew 25:36-8
He will sort the sheep and goats and punish the goats,
and award eternal life to the sheep.
Context shows us what Matthew 16:27-8 means.
It doesn't mean the transfiguration, which is
taken out of context. Purposefully.
Before Jesus can reward all men, sort the sheep and the goats,
he must return and come into his kingdom.
In Matthew 16, he tells us that this all will happen in
the lifespans of some standing here. Helpyu cannot
make that disappear. So he tries to pretend that
this refers to the transfiguration. But Matthew 25 obviously
does not. Sitting on a throne, as king, sorting
sheep and goats as an earthly king sits in judgement
of his earthly subjects cannot be waved away.
Matthew 24-5 are one pericope, the seperate chapter
numbers were added in the 1600's. When is Jesus
to come into his kingdom, to ascend his throne, and as king
gather the nations and sort the sheep and goats?
In this generation.
This generation was to see these things come to pass,
Jesus's descent with his fathers angels and clouds of heaven.
Note clouds of heaven. This is important, because the very same
words are used by Jesus when he tells the high priest he
will see Jesus coming in clouds of heaven
Context, context, context, the cry of the Christian apologist.
Clouds of heaven give us context.
Within the lifespan of the high priest = this generation
= within the lifespan of some standing here.
This cannot be waved away by mumbling out of context
because it is hard core context. The context of these verses
is all of this was to happen some 1930 years ago or so, not
2000 years later or some indeterminate time, it is not figurative
speech, ot is not taken out of context, all the dodges
of the desperate and irrational apologist are swept aside.
What was to happen 1930 years ago?
Wars, earthquakes, false prophets, the heavens to fail,
the sun and moon to fail to give their light, the starts to fall from the
heavens.
This did not happen.
Then in dramatic fashion, Jesus, sitting on the right hand of power,
was to descend with his fathers angels in clouds of heaven.
This did not happen.
he was to come in his kingdom, ..the Son of Man shall
come in his glory and all his holy angels with him,
then shall he sit on the throne of his glory;
Then shall the King say
Note he is to come with his angels and sit on his throne
and he will be the King.
This is not the transfiguration, it is full blown
judgement day itself.
Not that  and others dare not deal with the
context of all of this.
In this generation, Jesus is to descend from heaven with his
angels. See Matthew 24:31. Luke 21, and they shall see the Son
of man coming in a cloud with great glory, in This generation
(Luke 21:33), Mark 13, And they shall see the Son of man coming
in the clouds with great power and glory in This generation.
(Mark 13:30).
So, we have three gospels telling us Jesus is to bodily descend
in this generation with clouds of heaven which he tells
the high priest he will see when he sees Jesus descend (Matthew
26:63)

This did not happen.
And has nothing to do with the transfiguration, which
would obviously happen before the great day when earth
quakes rock the earth, and the stars fall, and the sun and moon
are dim and Jesus descends from heaven with his fathers
angels in great glory trailing clouds of heaven.
doesn't know the meaning of context.
And Jesus ascending his throne of glory,
and as King. rewarding all men according to their acts
is also post transfiguration, post descent from heaven.
Jesus will descend, and his angels will gather the elect
form the 4 corners of the earth. See Matthew and Mark.
Context? If  bothered with context, it would be obvious
that all of this has nothing to do with the transfiguration
or 2000 years after Jesus's times.
But context is exactly what  and other apologists dare
not apply to any of this.
Because when you read these verses, understand the obvious
claims these verses make, one realizes, that some 1930
years ago, all these great prophecies failed completely.
And all of this was to happen within the lifespans
of Some standing here, in this generation, in the
lifespan of the high priest at Jerusalem.
The bible is a crock, Jesus was a kook, nobody
works miracles a promised, these prophecies failed.
Its time to admit these truths and drop these stupid
myths and get on with something real.
===
Joeseph Campbell wrote about the Egyptian/Biblical cosmology in "The
Power of Myth."  There are also some references to it in the
translator's notes for Genesis in the NET Bible:
http://www.bible.org/netbible/
====
TILL
I live south of Zion, Illinois, which was settled by flat-earthers. Some
of their literature is too absurd to believe, but they also want their
flat-earth theory to be given consideration in schools. The difference in
them and Pastor Tamariki is that they are serious about it.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@theramp.net
====
No! May the world be filled with little Brian Tamarikis like ,
so that I may laugh at them all the more!!

====
Brian
Both, . In the case of the 'flat earth', this is what the Bible
says, so it is the Bible that is in error. Sometimes I know that it
is more the people that make an error of interpretation.
But it was people that wrote the bible in the first place, so no
wonder it has funny ideas like the earth being flat. :-)
TILL
You missed the obvious point of the posting of this article, Helpless. (So
what else is new?) Science has established that the earth is a sphere, yet
some religious nuts are insisting that the flat-earth theory also be taught
in school. Science has established that the species now on earth are the
result of evolution, fueled by natural selection, yet some religious nuts
in this country are insisting that the biblical creation theory also be
taught in school.
====
Tim
When you sent your subscription request I did some checking on your e-mail
address (as I always do to weed out previous trollers) and I was aware that you
write articles for New Zealand's version of Landover Baptist Church.
I didn't mention it because I was hoping that  would see that someone who
satirizes the Bible argues the same way he does in defending it. Skeptics here
have been telling him for 3 years that he does more for the errancy cause than
1000 atheists ever could, but he is impervious to reason or advice.
Maybe this will finally sink through his skull. Your posts read exactly like
those of someone who satirizes the Bible. Think about that for awhile.
Tim
When you sent your subscription request I did some checking on your e-mail
address (as I always do to weed out previous trollers) and I was aware that you
write articles for New Zealand's version of Landover Baptist Church.
I didn't mention it because I was hoping that  would see that someone who
satirizes the Bible argues the same way he does in defending it. Skeptics here
have been telling him for 3 years that he does more for the errancy cause than
1000 atheists ever could, but he is impervious to reason or advice.
Maybe this will finally sink through his skull. Your posts read exactly like
those of someone who satirizes the Bible. Think about that for awhile.
I was just writing in a previous post about how hard it is to
satirize religion, because religion seems to be more absurd than any
satire. And you confirmed it! (mind you, we have a saying down here
when we hear of some of the more ridiculous American carry-ons: Only
in America!
====
Brian
I often think that the satire of religion is one of the more
difficult subjects, because there is usually a real-life example of
what you are satarizing in some religious practice somewhere!
I would also like to offer a job to , if he is interested.
====
Well they were being trained in the language of the Babs. Knowing the
language doesnt make one wise. It just allows the wisdom to be better
communicated,whole before
it only wouldve been wise to test their progress in the language training.
three-year can
You see a problem, I see further detail into the account. If some account of
some event records the garments of characters in the story and wearing
purple garments and in the next sentence the account says that they were
wearing yellow garments, then I conclude that they were wearing yellow and
purple garments or that they changed their clothes. You conclude that there
is a contradiction. WHat u seek is what u'll find.
====
TILL
There is just no end to your stupidity, is there, Helpless? When
Nebuchadnezzar had the dream [in the second year of his reign], he ordered
the wise men of his kingdom to interpret it. When they couldn't, the king
decreed that all the wise men in his kingdom would be killed (2:12). Now
notice carefully what the next verse says, Helpless.
If Daniel and his companions were singled out for execution, then they must
have been known by this time to be wise men, but look at the stupid
comment you made above: Well they were being trained in the language of
the Babs. Knowing the language doesnt [sic] make one wise.
I agree with you, Dumbo. Their mere training in the Chaldean language
would not have established their reputation as wise men, so there must have
been some other way that Nebuchadnezzar had determined that they were wise
men, who were to be executed along with the other wise men in the kingdom.
How could that determination have been made, Helpless? The answer is in
1:18ff.
So AT THE END OF THE TIME THE KING HAD SET [which was a period of three
years, 1:5], Daniel and his friends were brought before the king, at which
time he determined that they were ten times wiser than all the magicians
and enchanters in his whole kingdom.
But this determination had been made AT THE END OF THE TIME THE KING HAD
SET [three years], yet chapter 2 claims that at some time during the SECOND
year [2:1] of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, the wisdom of Daniel and his friends
was already known sufficiently to include them in the king's decree to kill
all the wise men in the kingdom.
I'll post this by itself so that you can't evade the blank space after your
ID tag below without your evasion being very conspicuous.
====
TILL
Helpless has never admitted to being a high school student, but when he was
questioned about this two years ago and pressed to answer the question, he
evasively replied that he wanted to keep a little mystery in his identity.
At times I have to agree with you, because most of the time he doesn't even
show the intelligence level of a high schooler.
TILL
I'll remind Helpless that he pressed an opponent on another issue to give
textual evidence to support his claim. I must insist that he do the
same, especially since he has twice accepted guidelines that prohibit
argument by assertion and question begging.
====
JERRY
Well, first his claim that Daniel and friends might have already been
in training is a supposition, which he agreed not to do. Second, he
has above said that it was Nebs who ordered the training, but if
that's the case, there is no way that Nebs could have ordered the
training for three years and they complete it in the second year of
Neb's reign.
However, this is typical of  in debating anything. He has
nothing to offer, so he believes that if he can show how it *might*
have happened that he has a case. And, no matter how many times he is
reminded that this isn't the case, he continues to do it.
====
TILL
I don't debate through private correspondence, especially when a thread has
been running on the newsgroup, so I am going to post my reply to the
ng. If you choose to continue the discussion, please respect protocol and
(1) put your comments after what you are replying to and not before, and
(2) mark your comments with an ID tag.
TILL
Well, as Helpless has demanded of an opponent in another thread, where is
your textual evidence?
Here is my textual evidence that disputes your speculative,
how-it-could-have-been solution.
Notice that the king decreed three years of training and that verse 5
clearly states that a part of the decree was that they would be stationed
in the king's court AT THE END OF THAT TIME.
The text later stipulates that Daniel and his friends were brought before
the king AT THE END OF THE TIME THE KING HAD SET FOR THEM.
The king had set three years, and at the end of the time the king had set,
they were brought into his presence, so where does the language of the text
allow for the accelerated courses that you speculated?
Furthermore, the text states that at the end of the time the king had set,
Daniel and his friends didn't just appear before the king, but they were
stationed in his court.
So the king decreed (1) the young men would be trained for three years, and

(2) they would be stationed in the king's court at the end of that
time. Further along, the text states that Daniel and his friends appeared
before the king and were stationed in his court at the end of the time the
king had set.
So how does the text allow for your acceleration theory?
TILL
If you don't know that events were dated in biblical times in accordance
with the number of years that monarchs had reigned, then you need to do
some serious research into biblical chronology.
I'll juxtapose two examples to show you just how badly you are grasping for
straws.
Now did Jeremiah mean that the word came to him in the fourth year of
King Jehoiakim in a sense like the year of the dog or horse, or did he mean
that this word had come to him in the fourth year of Jehoiakim's
reign? Notice that he said that the fourth year of Jehoiakim was the first
year of Nebuchadnezzar, so was this just something like the year of the dog
or horse, or did he mean that it was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign?
Daniel 1:21 says that when Daniel was stationed in the king's court, he
continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus. Does this mean the
first year of Cyrus, or did it just mean something like the year of the
dog?
Say whatever you want to try to quibble your way out of this problem, but
as you can see above, Daniel 1:2 says that Nebuchadnezzar's dream happened
in the second year of HIS REIGN. That's clear enough for anyone but a
biblical inerrantist desperately trying to find a way to show that the
Bible doesn't mean what it plainly says.
====
No Im not saying that they were brought in before Nebs a year earlier.
Ionly saying that it was likely that the entir4e pool of youth began
training upon arrival in Babylon.
==
Till 'Im
surprised that you didnt see the word IF. Please tell me why you
overlooked that word.I even typed the ID tag for you.
====
TILL
With all due respect, Dumbo, you seem to have missed where I pointed out
several times that these words that you think explain the chronological

problem are mere assertions, and argument by assertion violates the
guidelines you agreed to.
You surely aren't so dumb that you can't see this.
====
JERRY
And you seem to have missed the definition of supposition and argument by
assertion, both of which you have just done and both of which you agreed
not to do.
====
TILL
I replied to this in Part (1).
TILL
But if this test [of] their progress in the language training happened
during the SECOND year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign [2:1], then the wisdom of
Daniel and his friends was known to Nebuchadnezzar at that time. Why then
were they brought before Nebuchadnezzar at the end of the three-year period
[as claimed in 1:18ff]? Why wouldn't Nebuchadnezzar have known that these
three whom he found to be ten times wiser than all the other wise men in
his kingdom were the same three whose wisdom he had discovered only a year ago.
TILL
Furthermore, since Daniel and his friends were promoted to high positions
of authority just a year earlier, how do you explain the verses below?
But these four had already been made high officials in the king's court.
Promotion to the king's court in 1:19 must have been rather anticlimactic
to these four, since they had already been promoted to the high positions
named above.
You can put your solutions to these problems after your ID tag typed
below. Remember your agreement (1) to reply to my arguments point by
point, and (2) to do so without (a) arguing by assertion, (b) begging
questions, or (c) special pleading.
====
TILL
You left a big blank here, Helpless. Where is the language in the text
that justifies your assertion that the young men had already been in
training for up to a year when the decree was issue?
I'll put another ID tag below for you to use in quoting the language that
supports your claim. Keep in mind that you agreed two years ago and just
recently renewed the agreement that you would reply to my arguments point
by point. This is a point. Reply to it.
====
TILL
I replied to this in Part (A) to point out that  is violating his
agreement to reply to me point by point. Let's see if he fills in the
blank above.
TILL
But unless you can quote textual evidence to support your if, it will be
only an unsupported assertion, and you agreed to refrain from arguing by
assertion. I'll type your ID tag below to give you another chance to give
us textual evidence to support your assertion.
====
TILL
I replied to the sections above in Parts (A) and (B).
TILL
Well, I can read, Helpless, and I think I can read quite well. I know what
you are saying, but I also know that what you are saying is only an
assertion for which you have offer no textual support. You jumped all over
another opponent and mentioned about four times in your reply that you
wanted to see his textual evidence. I'm not insisting that you apply the
same standard to yourself. After all, you agreed not to argue by
assertion, but you have done nothing but argue by assertion from the time
when resumed this debate, just as you did two years ago.
I'll give you another chance and type below your ID tag so that you can
conveniently quote the language of the text that it is likely that the
young men had been in training prior to the king's decree.
TILL
In addition to your supporting evidence that the young men had already been
in training prior to the decree, I'd like to see you quote language from
the text that would show it was likely that there was a delay as long as
6 months or a year after their arrival in Babylon before the king issued
his decree that they be trained for three years in the language and
literature of the Chaldeans.
Just type it after your ID tag below.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jftill@theramp.net

===
TILL
I replied to the sections above in Parts (A) and (B).
TILL
I replied to the sections above in Parts (A) through (C).
TILL
That's right. Your claim that they were trained prior to the decree is
merely an assertion for which you refuse to quote language from the text to
support.
I'll type your ID tag below to give you another chance to keep your
agreement not to argue by assertion. Just type in the language from the
text that even implies that these young men had already been in training
when the decree was issued.
Why do you think that I didn't see the word if, since I have commented on
it several times in postings prior to this one. I have seen your word
if, but I have also told you several times that the if amounts to an
unsupported assertion. Unless you can quote language from the text to
support your if, then you are violating your agreement not to argument
by
assertion.
I'll give you another chance and type your ID tag below. Just quote to us
the language of the text that even suggests that these young men had
already been in training when the decree was issued.
TILL
Do you ever tire of making a fool of yourself?
I haven't overlooked it. See my comments above.
Why have you overlooked my request that your apply your own standard to
yourself and cite textual evidence to support your assertion? I'll give
you another chance to put the textual evidence after your ID tag below.
TILL
Look at all the blank space. Why didn't you answer, Helpless? I'll give
you another chance. Please type after your ID tag below your reason for
violating the guidelines of our debate that you promised two years ago and
just recently again that you would keep. One of those guidelines, by the
way, was that both of us would answer the other point by point. Each time
you left a blank space after your ID tag, you violated that
agreement. Will you violate it again?
TILL
Your evasion has me convinced that you are just another dumb high school
kid who wants to be a biblical apologist and doesn't know how. You're on
the verge of going back into my e-mail filter, because you're a complete
waste of time. You don't have enough common sense to know how to debate.

TILL
In Parts (1) and (2), I replied to 's asinine comments above.
TILL
Well, okay, that make sense, but it is the fallacy of false analogy,
because the color of clothes is hardly parallel to the mathematical
inconsistencies in Daniel 1 and 2. Your task is to explain how a king
could decree that young men were to receive three years of training in the
language and literature of his empire, AT THE END OF WHICH TIME, he
discovered that four of these young men were 10 times wiser than all other
wise men in his kingdom, yet at some time during the SECOND year of this
king's reign, he had discovered that these same four were so wise that he
promoted them to high government offices.
In other words, Helpless, how can you squeeze three years into two
years? That problem is a bit more complex than the color of clothing.
====

The local authorities denounced Jesus who was crucified,
pretty heavy duty denouncement of the movement. Saul
of course tells how he as an orthodox Jew, harrassed the
new heretics who threatened to bring Roman military
might down on Israel by their activites.
The gospels were not written until after the fall of Jerusalem.
So the Jews, removed from Jerusalem and surrounding areas,
didn't have time to play around with denouncing the
remnants of this kook cult, they have far more pressing
immediate problems, and this kept up til the disasterous
revolts of 130 CE.
The Christians had left the area and migrated to cities,
where they were heavily denounced by the Roman authorities,
and skeptics like Celsus.
They were denounced by the Jews as a whole by the fact that
few Jews joined them. Only after Paul created Paulianity
did the cult grow, and that among gentiles.
A century after Christ died, the Jews had little
interest in denouncing this, it was no longer a
heretical offshoot of Judaism, but had become a
pagan-Jewish-soterological mystery cult.
Not even close enough to Judaism to bother to
denounce it.
By the time Christianity had mutated to the RCC and become
the official state religion and anti-Semitism
started being a problem, no writings denouncing Christianty
was allowed to remain undestroyed. Celasus and a few
other paltry critiques made it to us by flukes. By then
the Jews would not have known anything special other
than what people like Celsus knew by applying rational
thinking to the gospel tall tales.

So your entire argument stands upon an uproven assumption. You asserted
that the gospels were written after 70AD. Will you also be so bold to
admit that if your assertion fails then so does ur argument?
====
No, my facts above are that, obvious facts.
You have no facts, just invincible ignorance and massive intellectual
dishonesty that in a kneejerk fashion, dismisses all facts, truths,
obvious realities and reason.
Paul for example tells us he started out as persecuting
the small Christian cult. But the facts are, there was also
no large scale conversions in Jerusalem to Christianity.
The Jews rejected Jesus like they mainly rejected
numerous other religous kooks of the time, of which Jesus
was but one.
The Christians did abandon Jerusalem just before the fall.
And became the Ebionites.
Christianity only grew slowly, and mainly because
Paul managed to rid it of two main stumbling blocks
to wider popularity, following the Jewish law strictly,
and circumcision.
All of this is old history found in 1000 books
on early Christianity.

====
No, the gospels contradict each of fatallay, and drastically
on every point of their lying narratives.
It is simply a fact that this is so, but the facta also
is that religous believers by and large lack any species
of intellectual honesty. Place the contradictions before
them and you can hear their brains turning off.
Click....
Did Jesus ascend to heaven from a room in Jerusalem
after appearing their to his disciples? (Mark).
Or did the apostles leave Jerusalem as per instructions
from Jesus himself via two women who met him on a mountian
in Galilee?
Did three women find and empty tomb and flee and
tell no man (Mark), or was it one women who immediately
told two apostles who beliveed her and raced to the tomb?
(John) Or five or more women who told the eleven apostles,
not two, who did not believe them? (Luke)
Why no miracle working abilities for Christians despite
numerous claims from Jesus himself his followers would have that?
Mark 11:22-3, Matthew 21:21, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:18-19.
And Jesus did promise that some 1930 years ago or so, he'd preside
over judgment day and the end of the world.
Why the great attraction to this mess of useless lies,
stupid promises, and a drastically failed prophecy
of judgmemt day nearly 2000 years ago?
Why do so many people love this crap so much, they
will immediately and spontaneously commit total intellectual
suicide when they have any of these foolsih falasirties pointed
out to them?
Lies, balderdash, contradictory claims from ignorant
anonymous sources obviously won't get you to heaven.
So its strictly for losers? Why do so many people want
to be losers?
And if it isn't being a loser Christian of some species,
people want to be loser Moslems, Jews, Mormons, Scientologists,
or something else.
Appolianus's biographer was serious.
Can you prove he was wrong or lying?
And disappearing from Diocletian's court was
as public an act as you could wish for, you were
the one challenging us to show you such a public
action.
Jesus's acts were not proven from Roman court records.
Apollianarus's acts were.
Or so saith his biographer.


Yes, I have, you have simply taken refuge
into total intellectual dishonesty.
You simply deny the obvious facts.
Now you sneer at laugh at me, because
it is not in my power to make you think, to make
you intellectual honest, to make you rational.
To make you use reason.
No, I can't. I can win the debate but I can't make
you think.
But you really haven't won anything, have you?
So, did the apostles obey Jesus and march to Galilee (Matthew)
or did they remain hiding in a dingy room in Jerusalem
until Jesus appeared to them, berated them, and then
ascended to heaven, as Mark specifically says he did indeed do?
All you can do here, is retreat into obscurantism
and irrationality. It must be very satisfying.
I am not going to bother to waste time posting stuff
you won't bother to read honestly anyway.
I will point you to the verses where the gospels
contradict themselves on what Jesus did upon his
alledged resurrection.
I have already quoted from Mark 16 on his appearance
in a room in Jerusalem, and I posted the comment that immediately
after speaking to them he ascended to heaven.
Look it up and read it yourself.
Matthew 28 has the tale of Jesus meeting the two
women on their way to the apostles. He has them
pass the word to them to meet him in Galilee,
which they do, contradicting Mark, where they don't
Meet Jesus, and flee and tell no man
Loook it up yourself.
John has a cock and bull story that is far different,
Mary Magdalene alone goes to the tomb, she does not
flee and tell no man, she instead tells two apostles
who believe her and race to the tomb. Later Jesus appears
to them in Jerusalem, and they are told to go to
the sea of Tiberius, where Jesus goes fising with them.
In Luke, its 5 or more women, who do not meet Jesus as
per Matthew, they tell 11 apostles, not 2 as per John,
and are not believed, as per John.
Jesu slaters leads them out to Bethany and ascends
to heaven, which is not what happens in Mark, or
John or Matthew.
in Acts 1, they are told not to leave Jerusalem.
Not in agreement with Matthew or John.
its all there. The critics know it.
If you know it, why should I bother to type it out for you
only to see you play dumb and retreate into invincibl ignorance?
Jesus tell 'em to stay in Jerusalem.
In Matthew they are told to meet him in Galilee,
which they do?
If you know the verses, why ask me to waste time
copying them so you can ignore 'em again?
So, did the apostles stay in Jerusalem, or go to Galilee?
Please be smart. Stop demanding I post verse we both know you won't
deal with in an intellectually honest manner, just wasting my time
He reports bare rumors which floated around in many forms.
That rumors circulate does not mean they are true, no
more than the rumors that the UN had tanks and troops
hidden in underground caverns under Detroit were true,
even though this and similar rumors were circulated
as gospel facts by far right loonies and militia crazies.
Paul also claimed that Jesus's second coming
and the judgement day would happen very soon, also.
It didn't. Paul didn't know squat
====
There is no textual evidence. We dont know if they trained for one year
prior to the decree of 2 days or even if they trained at all prior to the
decree. The point is that it is likely that the entire pool of Hebrew youth
that they were chosen from began training upon arrival in Bab.
====
TILL
So if they began training upon their arrival in Babylon (which is only an
unsupported supposition), how could they have completed three years of
training at some time during the second year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign,
since Nebuchadnezzar was already king at this time?
Anyway, I'm glad you admitted that you don't know and can't know that the
training had begun prior to the decree. Now since you admit that there is
no textual evidence for this assertion, let's see you explain why it is
likely that the young men had trained prior to the decree.
I'll walk you through the text again to show you why there is no reason to
think it is likely that the men had trained prior to the decree.
The first two verses of this narrative state that KING Nebuchadnezzar
besieged Jerusalem in the third year of the reign of King Jehoiakim of
Judah and brought to Babylon the spoils of his victory.
These two verses state that THE KING ordered Ashpenaz to BRING in some of
the young men of the royal seed of Israel and teach them the literature and
language of the Chaldeans.
Would you point out the language in this text that shows it is likely
that the young men referred to had already been trained in the literature
and language of the Chaldeans for six months or a year? You can type the
words that convey this likelihood after your ID tag below.
TILL
If the young men had already been in training for up to a year, why didn't
the omniscient, omnipotent one inspire his chosen writer to record the
decree like this: Then the king commanded his palace master Ashpenaz to
bring in some of the Israelites of the royal family and of the nobility,
young men without physical defect and handsome, who were being taught the
literature and language of the Chaldeans, so that they could continue their
training in the palace?
Does the omniscient, omnipotent one have something against clear
communication? Put your comments and answer after your ID tag below.
THE TEXT OF DANIEL CONTINUED
Would you please quote the language of this verse that indicates it was
likely that the king meant that these young men were to be educated only
for two more years so that altogether their prior training before the
decree and the additional training would total three years? Put your
quotation of the language
after your ID tag below.
THE TEXT OF DANIEL CONTINUED
So Daniel and his friends were among those whom Ashpenaz selected in
accordance with the king's decree. Would you quote the exact language of
this text that would show it was likely that Daniel and his friends had
already been undergoing training in the language and literature of the
Chaldeans when they were selected? Put it after your ID tag below.
TILL
In other words, show us your textual evidence. If you have no textual
evidence then show us your argument that will support your claim that it
was likely that these young men had already been trained for six months
or a year prior to the decree.
If you have such an argument--and you don't--then show us why the language
of the text above would not require readers to understand that even if some
young Israelites were already being trained, the king's decree did not mean
that after they were brought into the palace by Ashpenaz, they were to
undergo three years of training in the palace.
In other words, Helpless, we want to see your textual evidence.
====
The entire christian argument that was based on the resurrection. The
account of that argument was the gospels which were circulated and surely
wouldve been available to the Romans and Jews if they tried.
====
JOHN B.
Surely? Where does that come from? Who presented the entire Christian
argument and when did they do it? Are you claiming that the gospels were
circulated in the period immediately following Jesus' ministry? If so, you'd
better call the newspaper and show them your evidence, because this would be
an astounding claim of earthshaking importance to the religious world. If
not, then what *is* your claim?
====
Are Doubts About Jesus Justified?
DID Jesus of Nazareth really perform miracles? Was he resurrected from the
dead, as his disciples proclaimed? Did he live at all? In our modern age,
many seem to be unable to answer such questions with certainty. Why?
Because
they entertain doubts about Jesus, and doubts are feelings of uncertainty,
not knowing whether something is true or possible. But are feelings of
uncertainty concerning Jesus justified? Let us see.
How Doubts About Jesus Were Sown
Certain German theologians of the late 19th and early 20th centuries
portrayed Jesus as a fictitious figure of the ancient Church. Their
impugning Jesus' historicity led to a controversy among scholars at the
beginning of this century that reached the public at that time and still has
an influence today. For example, a recent study in Germany revealed that 3
percent of those interviewed believe that Jesus never lived and that the
apostles invented him. Yes, the seeds of doubt about Jesus that were sown
early in this century find fertile soil in people's hearts even now.
Why is the conclusion that Jesus was invented simply not justified? Bible
scholar Wolfgang Trilling comments: The controversy as to whether Jesus
ever lived, in other words whether he was a historical figure or a myth, was
settled. The question was resolved in a scholarly manner, at least in such a
way that serious-minded people no longer see the problem as an academic
issue. Nevertheless, some still doubt that Jesus ever existed.
Consequently, let us investigate how one can establish Jesus' historicity as
well as remove other doubts concerning him.
Testimonies That Dispel Doubts
The ignominious execution of Jesus as a contemptible criminal provides the
most convincing argument against opponents of the historicity of Jesus,
states Trilling. Why? Because the execution encumbered, even hindered, the
dispersion of the new faith among Jews and non-Jews. (Compare 1 Corinthians
1:23.) If the execution of Jesus the Messiah was such an effrontery to both
Jews and Gentiles, it hardly would have been an invention of the apostles!
Furthermore, Jesus' death is attested to as an historical event not only by
the four Gospels but also by the Roman writer Tacitus and by the Jewish
Talmud.
Other events during Jesus' life are also viewed as internal evidence of the
credibility of the Gospels, hence of what they tell us about him. For
example, would the followers of Jesus have fabricated his coming from
Nazareth, a place seemingly out of favor? Or is it likely that they would
have invented his betrayal by Judas, a trusted companion? Does it seem
realistic to think that they would have made up a story about Jesus' being
abandoned by the rest of the disciples in such a cowardly manner? It is
surely illogical that the disciples would have constructed particulars so
detrimental in nature and then proclaimed them far and wide! In addition,
the art of teaching employed by Jesus was characterized by a unique style.
Jewish literature of the first century contains nothing comparable to his
illustrations. Which anonymous person could ever have invented such a
masterpiece as the Sermon on the Mount? These arguments all tend to
corroborate the trustworthiness of the Gospels as reports of Jesus' life.
There is also external evidence for the historicity of Jesus. The four
Gospels portray him against a specific, accurately detailed, historical
background. Places, such as Bethlehem and Galilee; prominent individuals and
groups, such as Pontius Pilate and the Pharisees; as well as Jewish customs
and other peculiarities were not simply concocted. They formed part of the
structure of life in the first century, and they have been confirmed by
non-Biblical sources and by archaeological findings.
There is, thus, convincing evidence, both internal and external, that Jesus
is a historical person.
However, quite a number of people entertain doubts about miracles involving
him. Indeed, according to the survey quoted above, only a minority of German
churchgoers firmly believe that Jesus' miracles and his resurrection really
happened. Are doubts about Jesus' miracles and resurrection justified?
Why Some Doubt Jesus' Miracles
Matthew 9:18-36 reports that Jesus miraculously healed sick ones,
resurrected the dead, and expelled demons. Professor Hugo Staudinger, a
historian, comments: It is quite simply unbelievable, and from the
standpoint of history impossible, that these extraordinary reports are the
product of a vivid imagination. Why? Because it seems that the earliest
Gospels were penned at a time when most eyewitnesses to these miracles were
still alive! Further confirmation is found in that, as Staudinger goes on to
say, the Jewish opponents never denied that Jesus performed extraordinary
works. Ignoring all other proof and basing our judgment simply on this
external evidence, we find that Jesus' miracles are definitely worthy of our
belief.-2 Timothy 3:16.
Although the majority of Germans are convinced that Jesus healed sick
people, many have doubts about the power behind these healings. For
instance, a well-known German theologian stated publicly that healings
performed by Jesus were the result of the power of suggestion influencing
people who were suffering from mental distress. Is this a sound explanation?
Just consider. Mark 3:3-5 reports that Jesus cured a man's withered hand.
But is a withered hand the result of mental distress? Definitely not.
Consequently, this healing could not be attributed to the power of
suggestion. So what enabled Jesus to perform miracles? Professor Staudinger
admits: If there are no laws that are absolutely valid, and if one does not
completely deny God, then fundamentally one cannot rule out the possibility
that God, whose power exceeds man's, is able to perform things that are not
common practice. Yes, indeed, with the aid of the power of God, Jesus
literally healed people who were ill. There is thus no reason to doubt the
genuineness of his miracles.-Luke 9:43; Matthew 12:28.
As The American Peoples Encyclopedia puts it, if the greatest of all
miracles-Jesus' resurrection-took place, all other miracles reported in the
Gospels fall within the realm of possibility. Was Jesus really raised up
from the dead?
Doubts About Jesus' Resurrection Justified?
Consider first a piece of strong circumstantial evidence that supports the
truthfulness of the resurrection of Jesus-his empty tomb. The fact that
Jesus' grave was discovered to be empty was undisputed by his
contemporaries, even by his opposers. (Matthew 28:11-15) Deception would
easily have been exposed! The above-mentioned reference work rightly
concludes: No valid explanation for the empty tomb has ever been suggested
except the biblical statement, 'He is not here; for he is risen' (Matt.
28:6).
Some object, saying that it was only Jesus' own disciples who proclaimed
everywhere that he was the resurrected Messiah. They did. But was not the
credibility of their message firmly anchored in historical fact, especially
the death and resurrection of Jesus? Of course. The apostle Paul was aware
of this connection when he wrote: If Christ has not been raised up, our
preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain. Moreover, we are
also found false witnesses of God, because we have borne witness against God
that he raised up the Christ.-1 Corinthians 15:14, 15; compare John 19:35;
21:24; Hebrews 2:3.
In the first century, there were many people whose identities were
well-known and who could bear witness to the appearance of Jesus after his
death. Among them were the 12 apostles and Paul, as well as more than 500
other eyewitnesses. (1 Corinthians 15:6) Bear in mind also the reason why
Matthias fulfilled the qualifications to succeed the unfaithful apostle
Judas. Acts 1:21-23 reports that Matthias could testify to Jesus'
resurrection and to earlier events in connection with Him. If the life and
resurrection of Jesus had been fiction instead of fact, such a requirement
for the appointment would certainly have been completely pointless.
Because so many first-century eyewitnesses could testify to the life,
miracles, death, and resurrection of Jesus, Christianity spread relatively
quickly throughout the Roman Empire, despite the above-mentioned obstacles.
His followers were willing to put up with hardship, persecution, and even
death so as to declare everywhere the resurrection and the fundamental truth
emanating from it. Which truth? That his resurrection had been possible only
by reason of the power of God. And why had Jehovah God resurrected Jesus
from the dead? The answer to that question shows who the historical Jesus is.
On the day of Pentecost, the apostle Peter freely declared to astonished
Jews in Jerusalem: This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all
witnesses. Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and
received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this
which you see and hear. Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he
himself says, 'Jehovah said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand, until I place
your enemies as a stool for your feet.' Therefore let all the house of
Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this
Jesus whom you impaled. (Acts 2:32-36) Yes, Jehovah God made Jesus of
Nazareth both Lord and Christ. Are doubts concerning his role in this part
of God's purpose justified?
Why Doubt Jesus' Present Role?
How can all doubts about the identity and role of Jesus be dispelled? By the
fact that he was clearly a true prophet. He predicted the wars, famines,
earthquakes, crime, and lack of love that we see today. Additionally, he
predicted: This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the
inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will
come. (Matthew 24:3-14) The fulfillment of these prophecies proves that
Jesus is the resurrected Christ, invisibly ruling 'in the midst of his
enemies,' and soon he will usher in God's new world.-Psalm 110:1, 2; Daniel
2:44; Revelation 21:1-5.
Now as never before, mankind urgently needs a Savior equipped with
superhuman wisdom. Why should we doubt that Jesus is the one rightly
selected to save mankind? John, who was an eyewitness to the impressive
miracles and to the resurrection of Jesus, declared: In addition, we
ourselves have beheld and are bearing witness that the Father has sent forth
his Son as Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; compare John 4:42.) Just as
we have no reasonable grounds to doubt Jesus' existence, miracles, death,
and resurrection, we have no reason to doubt that he has been enthroned by
Jehovah God as lawful King at His right hand. Without doubt, Jesus of
Nazareth is the King of God's Kingdom and Savior of the world.-Matthew
6:10.
[Footnotes]
Polemic references to Jesus in the Talmud are accepted as genuine by certain
scholars only. On the other hand, references to Jesus by Tacitus, Suetonius,
Pliny the Younger, and at least one by Flavius Josephus, are generally
accepted as proof of the historical existence of Jesus.
On one occasion, the resurrected Jesus ate fish with his disciples, which
proves that his appearance was not simply a vision, as some claim
today.-Luke 24:36-43.
====
Luther felt that women needed to be protected by men, and so grudgingly
condoned bigamy. In 1540, Philip of Hesse asked Luther to approve his
marriage to a 17-year-old girl, while still being married to his wife of
16 years. Luther reluctantly agreed, knowing that if he refused, Philip
would divorce his wife, and Luther didn't want the woman abandoned.
====
Tim
Absolutely, unless miracles claims in other ancient literature are history as
well.
Objective scholars date Mark to 70 CE. I would like you to tell us why we
should believe most eyewitnesses to events 40 years earlier would have still
been alive given average lifespans at that time.
Further, given the events of the late 60's in Jerusalem and Palestine, who
exactly would have been available to refute the claims made in documents
produced by a religious cult?
I would also like you to tell us how these eyewitnesses would have
differentiated between the tricks of a magician and the alleged deeds of Jesus.
Tim
This is either extremely misleading or outright factually incorrect.
Contemporary Jewish opponents wrote nothing which means any argument based on
the absence of such evidence is an argument from silence.
Professor Staudinger's logic doesn't appear to be any better than yours.
You trumpet the Talmud above, so why didn't you mention the Talmudic claim that
Jesus was a sorcerer?
For 40 days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried
'He is going forth to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed
Israel to apostacy'. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come
forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward, he was
hanged on the Eve of Passover  - Baylonian Sanhedrin 43A, Gemara
Tim
Quouting the Bible to prove its truthfulness is circular reasoning.
Tim
Professor Staudinger has just pointed out why miracles are not history and in
doing so has buried his argument (and yours). There is no reasonable way to
determine which ancient miracle claims are true and which ones are
false so they are not history.
You do realize you must allow this reasoning for the claims of other religious
believers, correct?
Once again, quoting the Bible to prove the Bible is circular reasoning.
Extremely unlikely given the contradictions in the resurrection accounts and
the fabrication of their details by copying statements from Psalms.
And how do we know the tomb was empty, because the Bible says so!
More circular reasoning from John!
I would like you to quote contemporary Jewish writings that admit to an empty
tomb. Your Biblical reference here is no doubt to Matthew's clumsy apologetic:
Matthew 28 (RSV)
12
And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sum
of money to the soldiers
13
and said, Tell people, 'His disciples came by night and stole him away while
we were asleep.'
John, can you tell us how the guards would have known that the disciples
took the body if they claimed to be asleep?
Doesn't make sense? Well, it doesn't make sense as truth or fiction.
The writer of the Gospel of Matthew had a problem. An obvious question in the
Matthean community would have been where are comments from The Jews about the
empty tomb.Presto, Matthew fabricates his clumsy account and has an
immediate apologetic.
Tim
I have one. There was no empty tomb, and you have given us no reason to believe
otherwise.
Of course not.
Paul never appeals to the empty tomb (which is a bit like a minister who never
mentions the resurrection) and uses the same Greek word for the  witnesses
seeing Jesus as he used for his vision.
In other words John, there is no evidence Paul believed in a physical
resurrection.
Tim
Then where is their testimony?
Paul contradicts the Gospel accounts.
[Acts 10:40, TEV] But God raised him from the dead three days later
and caused him to appear, not to everyone, but only
to the witnesses that God had already chosen, that
is, TO US WHO ATE AND DRANK WITH HIM AFTER HE ROSE
FROM DEATH.
Did Jesus have a banquet for 500 John?
Of course the other problems with Paul's claims are that he mentions no women
in his orderly account of the witnesses.
Tim
Uh duh, did it ever occur to you that there is no reason to accept this account
from Acts either?
I can only tolerate so much circular reasoning in one sitting. There are
so many errors in thinking evident in this
part of it alone I shudder to think what the remainder contains.
==
The 12 Labors of Hercules also involve specific, accurately detailed
historical background. Does that mean Hercules existed?
Roman archeologists have uncovered Temples of Apollo. Does that prove
that the Roman Sun God is real?
However, the Gospels - the documents which provide most of the information we
have on Jesus - were written by men who were not eyewitnesses to those events.
They wrote what others had told them. In a court of law, that's call
hearsay, and is not admissible as evidence.
Yes, only a true visionary could have predicted that the wars, famines,
earthquakes, crime and lack of love seen in the past would also be with us
today! Let me to clear my throat and prophesize: One hundred years from now,
we will see MORE wars, famines, earthquakes, crime and lack of love.
==
The Transfiguration.
Were Moses and Elijah actually there in person, as some in Christendom
teach? How could they have been there when the Bible tells us that Jesus
Christ is the first-born from the dead? And did not Peter tell the Jews
that even God-fearing David had not been raised from the dead but his tomb
is among us to this day? If David was still sleeping in death, so were
Moses and Elijah.-Rev. 1:5; Acts 2:29.
==
Daniel opens with the claim that Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in
the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim. The third year of Jehoiakim's reign
would have been 606/605 BC, which would have been the first year of
Nebuchadnezzar's reign. The claim that Nebuchadnezzar besieged
Jerusalem at this time is hard to reconcile with other biblical records and
the extrabiblical records of the time.
==
The Bible states that there were originally 12 tribes of
Israel - 10 in the Northern Kingdom, and 2 in the Southern Kingdom.
However, in 721BC the Northern Kingdom was destroyed by Assyria, and
its inhabitants (the 10 tribes) deported to Persia and elsewhere.
So there were only 2 tribes left. But around 570BC, just 150 years
after the 10 tribes were dispersed, the Prophet Ezekiel prophesied
that all of the 12 tribes would be reunited.
Now, the chances of that happening 150 years later may have been
fairly good, as at least some of the 10 tribes might still have
existed, without having intermarried with foreigners. But it's now
2,700 years later, and there's still no sign of the 10 tribes. In
fact, they disappeared from the face of the earth well before the
time of Jesus (ie more than 2,000 years ago).
So why did the Prophet Ezekiel expect that the 12 tribes would be
reunited? Was he wrong, with the benefit of 2,700 years hindsight?
Where did the other 10 tribes get to?

Ezekiel chapter 37 the
Lord promised to restore the 12 tribes of Israel:
Thus says Yahweh God: I will take the people of Israel from the
nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from every
quarter, and bring them to their own land. I will make them one
nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be
king over them all. Never again shall they be two nations, and never
again shall they be divided into two kingdoms. (Ezekiel chapter 37
verses 22-23)
Ezekiel later outlines, in chapters 47-48, the boundaries for each of
the 12 tribes in the restored land of Israel: 10 areas of land for
the tribes of the North, and 2 for the tribes of the South. So it is
quite clear that Yahweh God intended all 12 tribes to end up back in
the land. And, as the Lord told Ezekiel, he was just about to do it
(Ezekiel chapter 37 verse 19).
As it is written in the Revelation of John: 12,000 will be saved from
each of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation chapter 7 verses 4-8).
====
http://www.fas.org/news/reference/probert/D1A.HTM
Jupiter
Jupiter was the Roman name for the Greek god Zeus.
www.encycopedia.com
Jupiter
in Roman religion and mythology, the supreme god, also called Jove.
Originally a sky deity associated with rain and agriculture, he "
developed
into the great father god, prime protector of the state, concerned, like
the Greek Zeus (with whom he is identified), with all aspects of life.
Jupiter was the son of Saturn and Ops and the brother and husband of Juno .
Zeus
(zoos), in Greek religion and mythology, son and successor of Kronos as
supreme god. His mother, Rhea, immediately after his birth concealed him
from Kronos, who, because he was fated to be overthrown by one of his
children, ate all his offspring. ...... Zeus was an amorous god..... His
first mate was probably Dione, but his official consort was his sister,
Hera, who bore him Ares and Hebe. Zeus also loved Themis, Eurynome,
Demeter, Mnemosyne, Leto, and Maia and fathered many gods. Famous among
his mortal loves were Dana=EB, Leda, Semele, Thetis, Io, and Europa. His sons
sired from mortal wives include Hercules, Dardanus, and Amphitryon. He was
also the father of Athena, who was said to have sprung from his
head.<snip>. The Romans equated Zeus with their own supreme god, Jupiter
(or Jove).
Lets look at one of these sons, the best known one.
Hercules
Heracles, or Herakles, most popular of all Greek heroes, famous
for extraordinary strength and courage. Alcmene, wife of Amphitryon, made
love to both Zeus and her husband on the same night and bore two sons,
Hercules (son of Zeus) and Iphicles (son of Amphitryon). Hercules incurred
the everlasting wrath of Hera because he was the child of her unfaithful
husband.
So this amorous god, jove/jupiter/zeus with mates and consorts galore,
was simply referenced by Justin Martyr in a dumb fashion.
And that is what the skeptics accept from Justin Martyr.
==
Here are some quotes with refs from the Koran on the
creation of man that are certainly in contradiction:
"Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape," (15:26).
"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him
from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothin