mm-4019 === Speaking of self-referential conoundrums - Douglas Hofstadter is back > and has a new book out _I Am a Strange Loop_. No conundrum there. Turns out I *am* pathetic. > By the way, this sentence is false. My favorite variant of the liar paradox involves no self-reference at all. (0) All sentences with indexes > 0 are false. (1) All sentences with indexes > 1 are false. (2) All sentences with indexes > 2 are false. === suddenly i agree : you dont deserve credit :p > -- > No feeling sympathy for mathematicians who start > marching with signs > like 'Will work for food' in the future... I will > not show mercy > going forward. I was trained as a soldier in the > United States Army > after all... We play to win. --James Harris, feel > his wrath! nobody wants to feel harris , ANYWHERE Speaking of self-referential conoundrums - Douglas > Hofstadter is back > and has a new book out _I Am a Strange Loop_. By the way, this sentence is false. LOL not a fan of Douglas ? tommy1729 === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math <22358287.1180641287638.JavaMail.jakarta@nitrogen.mathforum.org> On May 31, 3:54 pm, tommy1729 nobody wants to feel harris , ANYWHERE Some popinjay Quinn Tyler Jackson does! They're > buddies (if you > know what I mean) in a High-IQ society called the > Mega Foundation. (snicker) NO NEILIST thats just harris playing with himself :-) === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math It is *soooo* cute when people try to name silly laws after > themselves, in the vain and sad hope that some day they will be as > famous as Godwin. Sure, sure: that's Hughes' Law. Glad you recognized my well-known principle which I discovered and which is named after me. Because it's mine. -- Jesse F. Hughes Readers should remember that being able to post on Usenet does not mean a person actually has expertise in a particular area or even knows ANYTHING significant in that area. -- James S. Harris === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math > or at least a good friend ??? Well, you found me out. I should have known better than to try and pull a fast one on > tommy1729. Darn it. Now that the jig is up, I can let you in on a secret. JSH gets more > replies than you do because he can write a coherent sentence. Sure, > generally decent English sentences with proper punctuation. It > doesn't hurt to read his posts. Yours, on the other hand... > Heh heh. You've just made a new friend. === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math HARRIS ? > or at least a good friend ??? Well, you found me out. > yep > I should have known better than to try and pull a > fast one on > tommy1729. Darn it. Now that the jig is up, I can let you in on a secret. > JSH gets more > replies than you do because he can write a coherent > sentence. nope , because he's a spammer... quite like you. Sure, > he's nuts, but nuts is okay --- indeed, preferred. yep he's nuts. and so are you if your his friend. nuts ok , preferred ??? thats why everybody hates him i guess. > generally decent English sentences with proper > punctuation. crappy math insulting religions worshipping himself It > doesn't hurt to read his posts. oh yes it does. i often use just short sentenses or words. but believe me , those many long sentenses of bull really hurt , even if there are no spelling mistakes. Yours, on the other hand... im not born on the US. AND BTW THIS FORUM IS ABOUT MATH NOT PROPER ENGLISH !!! guess you/james didn't know that hmm -- > Clouds are always white and the sky is always blue, > And houses it doesn't matter what color they are, > And ours is made of brick. > -- A new song by Quincy P. Hughes thats a stupid text! no greetings === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math > HARRIS ? > or at least a good friend ??? > Well, you found me out. >yep > I should have known better than to try and pull a > fast one on > tommy1729. Darn it. > Now that the jig is up, I can let you in on a secret. > JSH gets more > replies than you do because he can write a coherent > sentence. nope , because he's a spammer... > quite like you. You apparently have no idea what spam means. > generally decent English sentences with proper > punctuation. [...] > Yours, on the other hand... im not born on the US. AND BTW THIS FORUM IS ABOUT MATH NOT PROPER ENGLISH !!! guess you/james didn't know that hmm The fact that you are not a native speaker does not excuse your horrible presentation. Honestly, if you want reasonable responses, you might consider putting some care into your posts. Or not. Whichever. -- Jesse F. Hughes The way that she did what she did to me when she did what she did to me made me think of you. --- Delbert McClinton === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math > HARRIS ? > or at least a good friend ??? > Well, you found me out. > yep > I should have known better than to try and pull a > fast one on > tommy1729. Darn it. Now that the jig is up, I can let you in on a secret. > JSH gets more > replies than you do because he can write a coherent > sentence. nope , because he's a spammer... > quite like you. You apparently have no idea what spam means. > generally decent English sentences with proper > punctuation. [...] > Yours, on the other hand... im not born on the US. AND BTW THIS FORUM IS ABOUT MATH NOT PROPER ENGLISH !!! guess you/james didn't know that hmm The fact that you are not a native speaker does not excuse your > horrible presentation. Honestly, if you want reasonable responses, you might consider putting > some care into your posts. Or not. Whichever. You just used two incomplete sentences. JSH hardly ever did. I think JSH is a 25 year old single girl, with no math training, rather a frustrated librarian, an Engrlish major. === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math <25308384.1180535484405.JavaMail.jakarta@nitrogen.mathforum.org> <87iraauvg6.fsf@phiwumbda.org> <465db30b$0$97252$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net > HARRIS ? > or at least a good friend ??? > Well, you found me out. > yep > I should have known better than to try and pull a > fast one on > tommy1729. Darn it. > Now that the jig is up, I can let you in on a secret. > JSH gets more > replies than you do because he can write a coherent > sentence. > nope , because he's a spammer... > quite like you. You apparently have no idea what spam means. > generally decent English sentences with proper > punctuation. [...] > Yours, on the other hand... > im not born on the US. > AND BTW THIS FORUM IS ABOUT MATH > NOT PROPER ENGLISH !!! > guess you/james didn't know that hmm The fact that you are not a native speaker does not excuse your > horrible presentation. Honestly, if you want reasonable responses, you might consider putting > some care into your posts. Or not. Whichever. You just used two incomplete sentences. JSH hardly ever did. I think JSH is a 25 year old single girl, with no math training, rather a > frustrated librarian, an Engrlish major.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Hey, Jesse F. Hughes is JFH, and Harris/Bassam is JSH. Aha, a pattern! A pattern? Hmm, okay, yeah, A PATTERN! Both have three letters, both begin with J and end with H. So, what's Jesse's stand on split infinitives? How about dangling participles? Would Jesse correct the British English of an non-American poster to change four colour theorem to four color theorem? Or vice versa, force those backward Americans to write in the Queen's English with the ou everywhere? Oh oh, how about the length of the posts? Would Jesse criticize Archimedes Plutonium or Jack Sarfatti for the seemingly interminable lengths of their posts? And woe to you, Chumley, if Jesse Hughes takes a dislike of your user name or nom-de-newgroup. Does Jesse like the name Chumley? Would Jesse object to the name biggus? And surely Jesse thinks tommy1729 is not very original. But perhaps the 1729 might redeem tommy due to the famed Ramanujan name, but the rest of tommmy1729's posts would be eviscerated by Jesse Hughes for ANY ARBITARY REASON. hahahahahahahahahahaha (take breath) hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math <25308384.1180535484405.JavaMail.jakarta@nitrogen.mathforum.org> <87iraauvg6.fsf@phiwumbda.org> <465db30b$0$97252$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.netHey, Jesse F. Hughes is JFH, and Harris/Bassam is JSH. Aha, a > pattern! A pattern? Hmm, okay, yeah, A PATTERN! Both have three > letters, both begin with J and end with H. Do you have a problem with that??? --- J K Haugland http://home.no.net/zamunda === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math <25308384.1180535484405.JavaMail.jakarta@nitrogen.mathforum.org> <87iraauvg6.fsf@phiwumbda.org> <465db30b$0$97252$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.netHey, Jesse F. Hughes is JFH, and Harris/Bassam is JSH. Aha, a > pattern! A pattern? Hmm, okay, yeah, A PATTERN! Both have three > letters, both begin with J and end with H. Do you have a problem with that??? --- J K Haugland http://home.no.net/zamunda === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math > Hey, Jesse F. Hughes is JFH, and Harris/Bassam is JSH. Aha, a > pattern! A pattern? Hmm, okay, yeah, A PATTERN! Both have three > letters, both begin with J and end with H. Do you have a problem with that??? Get out of here, you J.H-come-lately! (Or is it J?H-come-lately? I get globbing and regexps mixed up.) -- Jesse F. Hughes [Lancelot] sighed, defeated. 'It is as practical to hurry an acorn toward treeness as to urge a damsel when her mind is set.' -- John Steinbeck, /The Acts of King Arthur and His Noble Knights/ === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math <25308384.1180535484405.JavaMail.jakarta@nitrogen.mathforum.org> <87iraauvg6.fsf@phiwumbda.org> <465db30b$0$97252$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.netHey, Jesse F. Hughes is JFH, and Harris/Bassam is JSH. Aha, a > pattern! A pattern? Hmm, okay, yeah, A PATTERN! Both have three > letters, both begin with J and end with H. Do you have a problem with that??? --- J K Haugland http://home.no.net/zamunda === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math > Hey, Jesse F. Hughes is JFH, and Harris/Bassam is JSH. Aha, a > pattern! A pattern? Hmm, okay, yeah, A PATTERN! Both have three > letters, both begin with J and end with H. Do you have a problem with that??? --- >J K Haugland hehe === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math <25308384.1180535484405.JavaMail.jakarta@nitrogen.mathforum.org> <87iraauvg6.fsf@phiwumbda.org> <465db30b$0$97252$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Hey, Jesse F. Hughes is JFH, and Harris/Bassam is JSH. Aha, a > pattern! A pattern? Hmm, okay, yeah, A PATTERN! Both have three > letters, both begin with J and end with H. Do you have a problem with that??? --- > J K Hauglandhttp://home.no.net/zamunda Heh heh, no JKH. But, hmmmmmm, wait a minute, alphabetically, JKH _is_ closer to JSH than JFH. Hope you're not closer to Harris' mentality (or lack thereof), too. :-) === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math > On May 30, 1:24 pm, chumley OH WAIT let me guess Jesse F Hughes is = > HARRIS ? > or at least a good friend ??? > Well, you found me out. > yep > I should have known better than to try and pull > a > fast one on > tommy1729. Darn it. > Now that the jig is up, I can let you in on a > secret. > JSH gets more > replies than you do because he can write a > coherent > sentence. > nope , because he's a spammer... > quite like you. You apparently have no idea what spam means. > generally decent English sentences with proper > punctuation. [...] > Yours, on the other hand... > im not born on the US. > AND BTW THIS FORUM IS ABOUT MATH > NOT PROPER ENGLISH !!! > guess you/james didn't know that hmm The fact that you are not a native speaker does > not excuse your > horrible presentation. Honestly, if you want reasonable responses, you > might consider putting > some care into your posts. Or not. Whichever. You just used two incomplete sentences. JSH hardly > ever did. I think JSH is a 25 year old single girl, with no > math training, rather a > frustrated librarian, an Engrlish major.- Hide > quoted text - - Show quoted text - Hey, Jesse F. Hughes is JFH, and Harris/Bassam is > JSH. Aha, a > pattern! A pattern? Hmm, okay, yeah, A PATTERN! > Both have three > letters, both begin with J and end with H. So, what's Jesse's stand on split infinitives? How > about dangling > participles? Would Jesse correct the British English of an > non-American poster to > change four colour theorem to four color theorem? > Or vice versa, > force those backward Americans to write in the > Queen's English with > the ou everywhere? Oh oh, how about the length of the posts? Would > Jesse criticize > Archimedes Plutonium or Jack Sarfatti for the > seemingly interminable > lengths of their posts? And woe to you, Chumley, if Jesse Hughes takes a > dislike of your user > name or nom-de-newgroup. Does Jesse like the name > Chumley? Would > Jesse object to the name biggus? And surely Jesse > thinks > tommy1729 is not very original. But perhaps the 1729 might redeem tommy due to > the famed Ramanujan > comment. Or maybe it would only redeem tommy in > name, but the rest of tommmy1729's posts would be > eviscerated by Jesse > Hughes for ANY ARBITARY REASON. yep the taxicab number :-D well spotted :-) also related to an elliptic invariant, but JSH WOULDNT understand that within this millenium ... actually there are even more reasons. but the taxicab was mainly it. hahahahahahahahahahaha (take breath) > hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha > you do enjoy laughing dont you my friend :-) === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math <21578646.1180562510612.JavaMail.jakarta@nitrogen.mathforum.orgOn May 30, 1:24 pm, chumley OH WAIT let me guess Jesse F Hughes is = > HARRIS ? > or at least a good friend ??? > Well, you found me out. > yep > I should have known better than to try and pull > a > fast one on > tommy1729. Darn it. > Now that the jig is up, I can let you in on a > secret. > JSH gets more > replies than you do because he can write a > coherent > sentence. > nope , because he's a spammer... > quite like you. You apparently have no idea what spam means. > generally decent English sentences with proper > punctuation. [...] > Yours, on the other hand... > im not born on the US. > AND BTW THIS FORUM IS ABOUT MATH > NOT PROPER ENGLISH !!! > guess you/james didn't know that hmm The fact that you are not a native speaker does > not excuse your > horrible presentation. Honestly, if you want reasonable responses, you > might consider putting > some care into your posts. Or not. Whichever. You just used two incomplete sentences. JSH hardly > ever did. I think JSH is a 25 year old single girl, with no > math training, rather a > frustrated librarian, an Engrlish major.- Hide > quoted text - - Show quoted text - Hey, Jesse F. Hughes is JFH, and Harris/Bassam is > JSH. Aha, a > pattern! A pattern? Hmm, okay, yeah, A PATTERN! > Both have three > letters, both begin with J and end with H. So, what's Jesse's stand on split infinitives? How > about dangling > participles? Would Jesse correct the British English of an > non-American poster to > change four colour theorem to four color theorem? > Or vice versa, > force those backward Americans to write in the > Queen's English with > the ou everywhere? Oh oh, how about the length of the posts? Would > Jesse criticize > Archimedes Plutonium or Jack Sarfatti for the > seemingly interminable > lengths of their posts? And woe to you, Chumley, if Jesse Hughes takes a > dislike of your user > name or nom-de-newgroup. Does Jesse like the name > Chumley? Would > Jesse object to the name biggus? And surely Jesse > thinks > tommy1729 is not very original. But perhaps the 1729 might redeem tommy due to > the famed Ramanujan > comment. Or maybe it would only redeem tommy in > name, but the rest of tommmy1729's posts would be > eviscerated by Jesse > Hughes for ANY ARBITARY REASON. yep the taxicab number :-D > well spotted :-) > also related to an elliptic invariant, but JSH WOULDNT understand that within this millenium ... actually there are even more reasons. > but the taxicab was mainly it. hahahahahahahahahahaha (take breath) > hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha you do enjoy laughing dont you my friend :-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Don't YOU enjoy laughing? It's healthy. Unless you go into some mental-illness-type maniacal laughter like James Harris. === Subject: Re: JSH: Get out of sci.math > On May 30, 6:01 pm, tommy1729 OH WAIT let me guess Jesse F Hughes is = > HARRIS ? > or at least a good friend ??? > Well, you found me out. > yep > I should have known better than to try and > pull > a > fast one on > tommy1729. Darn it. > Now that the jig is up, I can let you in on > a > secret. > JSH gets more > replies than you do because he can write a > coherent > sentence. > nope , because he's a spammer... > quite like you. > You apparently have no idea what spam > means. > generally decent English sentences with > proper > punctuation. > [...] > Yours, on the other hand... > im not born on the US. > AND BTW THIS FORUM IS ABOUT MATH > NOT PROPER ENGLISH !!! > guess you/james didn't know that hmm > The fact that you are not a native speaker > does > not excuse your > horrible presentation. > Honestly, if you want reasonable responses, > you > might consider putting > some care into your posts. Or not. > Whichever. You just used two incomplete sentences. JSH > hardly > ever did. I think JSH is a 25 year old single girl, with > no > math training, rather a > frustrated librarian, an Engrlish major.- Hide > quoted text - - Show quoted text - Hey, Jesse F. Hughes is JFH, and Harris/Bassam is > JSH. Aha, a > pattern! A pattern? Hmm, okay, yeah, A PATTERN! > Both have three > letters, both begin with J and end with H. So, what's Jesse's stand on split infinitives? > How > about dangling > participles? Would Jesse correct the British English of an > non-American poster to > change four colour theorem to four color > theorem? > Or vice versa, > force those backward Americans to write in the > Queen's English with > the ou everywhere? Oh oh, how about the length of the posts? Would > Jesse criticize > Archimedes Plutonium or Jack Sarfatti for the > seemingly interminable > lengths of their posts? And woe to you, Chumley, if Jesse Hughes takes a > dislike of your user > name or nom-de-newgroup. Does Jesse like the > name > Chumley? Would > Jesse object to the name biggus? And surely > Jesse > thinks > tommy1729 is not very original. But perhaps the 1729 might redeem tommy due > to > the famed Ramanujan > comment. Or maybe it would only redeem tommy > in > name, but the rest of tommmy1729's posts would be > eviscerated by Jesse > Hughes for ANY ARBITARY REASON. yep the taxicab number :-D > well spotted :-) > also related to an elliptic invariant, but JSH > WOULDNT understand that within this millenium ... actually there are even more reasons. > but the taxicab was mainly it. hahahahahahahahahahaha (take breath) > hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha you do enjoy laughing dont you my friend :-)- Hide > quoted text - - Show quoted text - quote: Don't YOU enjoy laughing? It's healthy. Unless you go into some mental-illness-type maniacal laughter like James Harris. end quote when i read james factoring polynomials into sevens again , continued bye how great he is ... and how we abuse science and god and blah blah blah and then people start to defend him ( not realising james insulted everybody on the forum ?? THAT INCLUDES THE DEFENDERS ) . albeit , most defenders are crankpots or members of the bassam kingdom ( which look alot alike for some reason ). that makes me cry rather than to smile ... but got to admit i like them better than the idiot german who thinks he's so good after just 4 posts ! ( 2 insults and 2 dumb questions ) your friend tommy1729 === Subject: Re: Did Viking dust seed life on Earth? space-borne carbon compounds into the seeds of life on Earth. A simulation >of the young solar system suggests that the interaction of Viking protons >with interplanetary dust containing anthracene produced biological >molecules called quinones, which exist in most living organisms. According >to Lubomir Gabla and co-workers of Jagiellonian University in Poland, this >suggests that the precursors of life are more likely to have reached Earth >in the form of dust than during a comet impact (M Tuleta et al 2001 Phys. >Rev. Lett. 87 078103). > LOL. Great point! You didnt think they rowed across the atlantic did you? === Subject: Frog problem I have this problem: A frog is in a well 12 feet deep. Each day he climbs up 3 feet, and each night he slips back 2 feet. How many days will it take the frog to get out of the well? I approached it by setting up a table: Day Climbed Up Slipped Back 1 3 1 2 4 2 3 5 3 4 6 4 5 7 5 6 8 6 7 9 7 8 10 8 9 11 9 10 12 10 After 10 days, the frog will get out of the well. Notice that at 10 days, he is at 12 feet which out of the well. Did I do this correctly? Please advise. THANKS! === Subject: Re: Frog problem > I have this problem: A frog is in a well 12 feet deep. Each day he climbs up 3 feet, and each night he slips back 2 feet. How many days will it take the frog to get out of the well? I approached it by setting up a table: > Day Climbed Up Slipped Back > 1 3 1 > 2 4 2 > 3 5 3 > 4 6 4 > 5 7 5 > 6 8 6 > 7 9 7 > 8 10 8 > 9 11 9 > 10 12 10 After 10 days, the frog will get out of the well. Notice that at 10 days, he is at 12 feet which out of the well. Did I do this correctly? Please advise. THANKS! Yes. I like the way you sketched out the results from each day to check yourself. Once you've done this, you can then go back and realize how to work the problem backwards. For most of the days, the frog only makes 1 net foot of progress, until he is at the ninth foot. So you can ask:How many days does it take to get from 0 to 9, if he makes 1 foot of progress a day, and the ans of course is 9 days (in fact, you note that the last and first column are the same for days 1 through 9). Then you know that on the tenth day he makes the 3 feet, gets to the 12 foot mark and gets out. M === Subject: Re: Frog problem Given the same question, what would happen if the well was 100 feet deep? How many days will it take the frog to get out of the well? Would a solution be: Days = Depth [CapitalEth] 2 Days = 100 [CapitalEth] 2 Days = 98 days === Subject: Re: Frog problem <7032375.1180497882337.JavaMail.jakarta@nitrogen.mathforum.org> Given the same question, what would happen if the well was 100 feet deep? How many days will it take the frog to get out of the well? Would a solution be: > Days = Depth - 2 > Days = 100 - 2 > Days = 98 days > Right. It takes Depth - 3 days to get to the point where you are 3 units from the top, and then on the next day, Depth-2 days, you get out. Matt === Subject: Re: Frog problem <7032375.1180497882337.JavaMail.jakarta@nitrogen.mathforum.org Given the same question, what would happen if the well was 100 feet deep? How many days will it take the frog to get out of the well? Would a solution be: > Days = Depth - 2 > Days = 100 - 2 > Days = 98 days > Right. It takes Depth - 3 days to get to the point where you are 3 > units from the top, and then on the next day, Depth-2 days, you get > out. Matt yes, i too agree, the catch was that there were 2 feet already up in the first day(net), and one each day, so 10 days. but it depends, the frog starts climbing on day or night, or else, it may take 2 days more! === Subject: What can be done with flat thinking? Can you write symbols or draw diagrams and plane figures on a flat surface to derive what is shown at: http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/figs/plate03z.html or do you have to work with objects made of something like cheese that can be cut and molded to derive it? Cliff Nelson Dry your tears, there's more fun for your ears, Forward Into The Past 2 PM to 5 PM, Sundays, California time, http://www.geocities.com/forwardintothepast/ Don't be a square or a blockhead; see: http://bfi.org/node/574 http://library.wolfram.com/infocenter/search/?search_results=1;search_per son_id=607 === Subject: =?windows-1256?B?x+Hd7c/t5iDf4e3IIMfh4+Pk5tog4+Qgx+Ha0dYhIcfhzOQg7ePL4SDI5b8 o KM7Y0SDm4eHIx+Hb7eQg3d7YKSk=?= === Subject: JSH: War of attrition The Math Wars are to me all about how some people with position and power forget the power of the pen, and sit letting the pot slowly come to a boil. When I feel a bit down--like if insulting posters start getting to me-- I can do things like do Google searches on my open source project Class Viewer which took the number one spot for that search string, years ago. It is all over the world. I especially feel honored looking at the Chinese page, where words I typed years ago to describe my project have been translated. That is an odd feeling. And that is just one thing. Just a few days ago I started talking about a managed copy idea of mine and just typing up a post on my blog I found myself talking about it as digital media equipment self-encryption and of course went to the initials to designate it DMESE. That is just one more thing. Archimedes said that with a level long enough and a place to stand he could move the world because he could conceive of greatness on a scale that most people cannot. I can move the world. Not one of you can say the same. My posts get translated to languages across the planet. I watch ideas of mine travel around the world. Yet I am still stopped by academics who are dead-set on fighting the Math Wars to the bitter end, and mostly they just wait. Yes, Princeton academics can stop me today. Yes, Harvard academics can hold the line today. But they burn everything their universities have built up over the years in the process and I let them. I emailed the University of California at Berkeley to note some unethical behavior by Arturo Magidin, and noticed at that point that Ralph McKenzie is listed as faculty, where it notes he is at my alma mater Vanderbilt University. Yup, I know that as I visited him there years ago, before my paper was published, retracted after sci.math'ers including Magidin trumped the formal peer review system with some emails, and the freaking math journal died. Academics can only sit and wait, while I move forward over time. Knowing that at the end, I go for the entire system to reform it. And I will change their world. I send papers to math journals and I damn well get a reply. Sure, they're polite rejections but they had better reply to me. You people don't get it because I post among you, and you think that because I post I must be at your level. Yeah only to use you in the Math Wars. I want mathematicians around the world to keep thinking about what you are thinking. I want them working hard to figure out how well they have you in hand. I want them working to keep you. I want them to demean themselves, crawl on their hands and knees to keep you believing in them. And they are doing it. While the war of attrition continues and it is all about inertia and momentum as I have always needed time. If the world knew too quickly what my discoveries really are, then the true targets could have escaped, but now the net closes, and you are the fish that were always part of the trap. You were always the bait. They care so damn much about what you people think of them that they are willing to lose everything, grasping for what they cannot hold. Public opinion is such a great thing. I love it. Public opinion is all about perception. People like Andrew Wiles are nothing without the applause or the dreams of it. They'll hold on, and hold on, and hold on, and give their energy, their very life blood to hold on to it, even if that is the means that is used to build the energy to end the wars. They give their life's blood for you to believe in them. And that is the energy that drives this forward. That is the hope of the world. It was always about time. I have always needed time. James Harris === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition The fact that James Harris is a despicable person does not imply that his work is invalid. It's all too easy to lose one's objectivity when dealing with such a loathsome specimen as James, but we debase ourselves when we do so. Before I continue, let me explain the specifics of why I hold James Harris in such contempt. I once attempted to defend James against the slings and arrows of sci.math by granting him the respect and deference we all reflexively grant Andrew Wiles. Having looked at both Harris's and Wiles's proofs of Fermat's Last Theorem, I had to admit that I didn't understand either one of them. With Wiles, we all say, Oh, I'm sure it's right. I'm just not smart enough to understand it. Why, then, is it so ridiculous to suggest the possibility that James might be right, and that the flaw lies in ourselves? Well, this is what I did, and it came as no surprise that the sci.math herd treated me with both overt scorn, and the subtler variety which says, Oh, you jest, no? No. Not a joke. Just trying to stand my ground in the stampede. What *did* surprise me, however, is that *James himself* lashed out at me for my position! Try to imagine yourself puzzling over Wiles's proof of FLT and muttering, Man, I just don't get it... and then Andrew himself walks in and starts hitting you with a rolled up newspaper and berating you for casting aspersions on his work. Unlikely? Yeah. Why? Because Andrew Wiles does not run around like a rabid dog biting every hand proffered in goodwill. In case I'm being too subtle, what I'm saying is that James Harris runs around like a rabid dog. At least the dog has the excuse of rabies. I don't know what Harris's excuse is. I emphasize my contempt for him because I think it important to establish this before I say the following: Fifty years from now, James Harris could be recognized as the greatest mathematician in history. I mean, it is possible, right? Can anyone seriously argue that the probability of such a thing is less than, say, 1/BB(100)? (BB = Busy Beaver.) Mathematicians know how strong a word impossible is -- yet I remember a time when they confidently proclaimed that it would be impossible for James to get his work published in a math journal. Were these mathematicians embarrassed? No! No need for embarrassment! Just pull out the No True Scotsman fallacy! Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman: Argument: No journal of mathematics would publish Harris's work. Reply: But the Southwest Journal of Pure and Applied Mathematics published it. Rebuttal: Ah yes, but no true journal of mathematics would publish it. Nothing wrong with committing logical fallacies when the target is a miscreant like Harris, right? Hey, let's try it again. Being published in a peer-reviewed journal isn't as important as other people citing or extending one's work, so Argument: No mathematician will ever cite James Harris or extend his work. Reply: But Dr. Gafforov cited Harris in Turk. J. Math. and extended his work. Rebuttal: Ah yes, but no true mathematician will ever cite James Harris or extend his work. At some point this no longer works however. Ah yes, but thousands of yes, but I didn't truly lose my job. Umm, yeah you did. Leave before I call security. I'm not saying this is inevitable, or even likely. Just that it's possible. Try to imagine it. Go with it, go with it... Now let me ask you a question: so what? Just as the fact that James Harris is a despicable person does not imply that his work is invalid, a future in which he is hailed as the world's greatest mathematician would not make his work valid. The only thing that makes his work valid or invalid is the work itself. The work itself is crap, of course, so if the world comes to hail James as the greatest mathematician in history, then that will be some sort of dystopic, crap-worshiping future. All I'm asking for is a little openmindedness about such possibilities. > You people don't get it because I post among you, and you think that > because I post I must be at your level. === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition [Jim Ferry] > The fact that James Harris is a despicable person does not imply that > his work is invalid. It's all too easy to lose one's objectivity when > dealing with such a loathsome specimen as James, but we debase > ourselves when we do so. Do you see that happening in the shrinking pool of people who still bother to give him serious replies? I don't. I'm thinking of people like Rupert, William Hughes, marcus_b, and Rick Decker. Even me up to last year (I haven't bothered with James this year). He still gets infinitely patient explanations of the same elementary errors dozens of times running. And he still gets knee-jerk heckling too, of course. Different sets of people, for the most part. > Before I continue, let me explain the specifics of why I hold James > Harris in such contempt. I once attempted to defend James against the > slings and arrows of sci.math by granting him the respect and > deference we all reflexively grant Andrew Wiles. Having looked at > both Harris's and Wiles's proofs of Fermat's Last Theorem, I had to > admit that I didn't understand either one of them. With Wiles, we all > say, Oh, I'm sure it's right. I'm just not smart enough to > understand it. Why, then, is it so ridiculous to suggest the > possibility that James might be right, and that the flaw lies in > ourselves? Well, this is what I did, and it came as no surprise that > the sci.math herd I don't understand this reification. There are all kinds of folks on sci.math. > treated me with both overt scorn, and the subtler > variety which says, Oh, you jest, no? No. Not a joke. Just trying > to stand my ground in the stampede. What *did* surprise me, however, > is that *James himself* lashed out at me for my position! Try to > imagine yourself puzzling over Wiles's proof of FLT and muttering, > Man, I just don't get it... and then Andrew himself walks in and > starts hitting you with a rolled up newspaper and berating you for > casting aspersions on his work. Unlikely? Yeah. Why? Because > Andrew Wiles does not run around like a rabid dog biting every hand > proffered in goodwill. In case I'm being too subtle, :-) > what I'm saying is that James Harris > runs around like a rabid dog. Yup, he attacks everyone sooner or later, and usually sooner. In fact, IME he's more quickly vicious to those who sincerely try to help him. > At least the dog has the excuse of rabies. I don't know what Harris's > excuse is. I emphasize my contempt for him because I think it > important to establish this before I say the following: Fifty years from now, James Harris could be recognized as the greatest > mathematician in history. I mean, it is possible, right? Can anyone seriously argue that the > probability of such a thing is less than, say, 1/BB(100)? (BB = > Busy Beaver.) Sure, it's possible. Also possible that, say, an exceedingly unlikely set of mutations will make petunias hyper-intelligent, and they'll rule the world in 50 years. > Mathematicians know how strong a word impossible is > -- yet I remember a time when they confidently proclaimed that it > would be impossible for James to get his work published in a math > journal. Were these mathematicians embarrassed? No! > No need for embarrassment! Just pull out the No True Scotsman > fallacy! Cf. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman: Argument: No journal of mathematics would publish Harris's work. > Reply: But the Southwest Journal of Pure and Applied Mathematics > published it. > Rebuttal: Ah yes, but no true journal of mathematics would > publish it. Nothing wrong with committing logical fallacies when the target is a > miscreant like Harris, right? Sorry, but this all sounds overstated to me. There's no reason to believe Harris's paper was reviewed, and several strong reasons to suspect that it wasn't. Not to mention that the journal yanked his paper itself within just a few days of publishing it. Seemed like a short-lived tragicomedy of errors (kept semi-alive only because of JSH's incessant whining about it). > Hey, let's try it again. Being > published in a peer-reviewed journal isn't as important as other > people citing or extending one's work, so Argument: No mathematician will ever cite James Harris or extend > his work. > Reply: But Dr. Gafforov cited Harris in Turk. J. Math. and > extended his work. J. Gafforov, Harris Factorization of Irreducible SL_3(q)-Modules: a New Approach to the Generalized Riemann Hypothesis, Turk. J. Math., 31, (2007). ? Have you read it? I haven't, and couldn't find it online. Is the Harris in the title JSH? If so, exactly what of JSH's did Gafforov cite? > Rebuttal: Ah yes, but no true mathematician will ever cite James > Harris or extend his work. At some point this no longer works however. Ah yes, but thousands of > yes, but I didn't truly lose my job. Umm, yeah you did. Leave > before I call security. I'm not saying this is inevitable, or even likely. Just that it's > possible. Try to imagine it. Go with it, go with it... Only if you give equal minutes of your time to pondering a world in which hyper-intelligent petunias rule with iron petals :-) > Now let me ask you a question: so what? Just as the fact that James Harris is a despicable person does not > imply that his work is invalid, a future in which he is hailed as the > world's greatest mathematician would not make his work valid. The > only thing that makes his work valid or invalid is the work itself. The work itself is crap, of course, so if the world comes to hail > James as the greatest mathematician in history, then that will be some > sort of dystopic, crap-worshiping future. All I'm asking for is a > little openmindedness about such possibilities. Toward what end? It's a fact of life that Harris's behavior is so consistently repulsive that most people who've seen his act won't give his math a fair hearing. But it's also a fact of sci.math that a /few/ mathematically competent (way overly competent for what's required, in fact) people will give him careful, serious feedback. The number of people willing to do the latter slowly shrinks over time, and you'd have a very hard time selling the notion that the world is poorer for that -- besides, it's probably what James really wants anyway. === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition > The Math Wars are to me all about how some people with position and > power forget the power of the pen, and sit letting the pot slowly come > to a boil. When I feel a bit down--like if insulting posters start getting to me-- > I can do things like do Google searches on my open source project > Class Viewer which took the number one spot for that search string, > years ago. It is all over the world. I especially feel honored looking at the > Chinese page, where words I typed years ago to describe my project > have been translated. That is an odd feeling. And that is just one thing. Just a few days ago I started talking about a managed copy idea of > mine and just typing up a post on my blog I found myself talking about > it as digital media equipment self-encryption and of course went to > the initials to designate it DMESE. That is just one more thing. Archimedes said that with a level long enough and a place to stand he > could move the world because he could conceive of greatness on a scale > that most people cannot. I can move the world. Not one of you can say the same. My posts get translated to languages across the planet. I watch ideas > of mine travel around the world. Yet I am still stopped by academics who are dead-set on fighting the > Math Wars to the bitter end, and mostly they just wait. Yes, Princeton academics can stop me today. Yes, Harvard academics > can hold the line today. But they burn everything their universities have built up over the > years in the process and I let them. I emailed the University of California at Berkeley to note some > unethical behavior by Arturo Magidin, and noticed at that point that > Ralph McKenzie is listed as faculty, where it notes he is at my alma > mater Vanderbilt University. Yup, I know that as I visited him there years ago, before my paper was > published, retracted after sci.math'ers including Magidin trumped the > formal peer review system with some emails, and the freaking math > journal died. Academics can only sit and wait, while I move forward over time. > Knowing that at the end, I go for the entire system to reform it. And I will change their world. I send papers to math journals and I damn well get a reply. Sure, > they're polite rejections but they had better reply to me. You people don't get it because I post among you, and you think that > because I post I must be at your level. Yeah only to use you in the Math Wars. I want mathematicians around > the world to keep thinking about what you are thinking. I want them > working hard to figure out how well they have you in hand. I want them working to keep you. I want them to demean themselves, crawl on their hands and knees to > keep you believing in them. And they are doing it. While the war of attrition continues and it is all about inertia and > momentum as I have always needed time. If the world knew too quickly what my discoveries really are, then the > true targets could have escaped, but now the net closes, and you are > the fish that were always part of the trap. You were always the bait. They care so damn much about what you people think of them that they > are willing to lose everything, grasping for what they cannot hold. Public opinion is such a great thing. I love it. Public opinion is > all about perception. People like Andrew Wiles are nothing without the applause or the > dreams of it. They'll hold on, and hold on, and hold on, and give > their energy, their very life blood to hold on to it, even if that is > the means that is used to build the energy to end the wars. They give their life's blood for you to believe in them. And that is > the energy that drives this forward. That is the hope of the world. It was always about time. I have always needed time. James Harris Satisfy my curiosity about one thing. For the last, what is it now, 10 years, you haven't had any success in getting your work recognized. Obviously, your vacuous threats have had no affect (Wiles for some reason still refuses to do the honorable thing and resign, then perhaps throw himself off of Fine Hall to atone for misleading the masses). In all of those ten years, you haven't convinced a *single* person that I can recall, that you are correct. The math journals reject your work. SO HOW WILL ANY OF THIS EVER CHANGE? Won't you go to your grave with your secret and the knowledge that nothing has changed, your work was in vain, and the evil mathematicians still rule! Won't it all be in vain? Shouldn't you perhaps buy some land in south Texas and start your own community where the next generation of *new* mathematicians will be raised who will not be brainwashed by the establishment? A group of people who can look at a ring and spot its flaws? A land where sqrt(4) has two solutions? A place where no algebraic integer can sneak into your fields? You see James, if you can't make things change James, you will have had no effect, and it would be as if you never existed. I know this realization will have you too frightened to respond, because there *is* nothing you can say. I don't expect I would able to respond either faced with such bleak prospects. This is the real problem you have been wrestling with now for a decade and even a great mind like yours has not yet found a solution. I guess you're screwed. M ;>) === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition > The Math Wars are to me all about how some people with position and > power forget the power of the pen, and sit letting the pot slowly come > to a boil. When I feel a bit down--like if insulting posters start getting to me-- > I can do things like do Google searches on my open source project > Class Viewer which took the number one spot for that search string, > years ago. It is all over the world. I especially feel honored looking at the > Chinese page, where words I typed years ago to describe my project > have been translated. > James -- as a working software engineer myself, I well understand your pride in your work. But you must understand that having written a useful program, does not imply that your mathematics is correct. You've made an unwarranted leap of logic. Surely you can see that? === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition > It was always about time. I have always needed time. How many more beers^H^H^H^H^Hyears do you suppose it will take? === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition > When I feel a bit down--like if insulting posters start getting to me-- > I can do things like do Google searches on my open source project > Class Viewer which took the number one spot for that search string, > years ago. It is all over the world. I especially feel honored looking at the > Chinese page, where words I typed years ago to describe my project > have been translated. That is an odd feeling. And that is just one thing. Yeah, I know the feeling, too. Every now and then I Google for the outlining the incompatibilities between ISO C and C++. http://tinyurl.com/2cmtkd http://tinyurl.com/26qmes Lately, the search yields about 100 hits, including mentions on pages in Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Portuguese, Vietnamese, French, German, Thai, Korean, Arabic, Slovakian, etc. There's even a translation of my document in Polish. And I'm especialy flattered that Stroustrup === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition > Just a few days ago I started talking about a managed copy idea of > mine and just typing up a post on my blog I found myself talking about > it as digital media equipment self-encryption and of course went to > the initials to designate it DMESE. > Obviously, I am not qualified to respond to James: I am not at his level, and all this time, he has just been toying with us. So clever, and I am totally crushed. Ok, ... now that I'm over that here's a Jim Ferry inspired puzzle. Take, the letters DMESE, the acronym for JSH's newest creation (?) and of James's work will *really* bring him. M === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition > Just a few days ago I started talking about a managed copy idea of > mine and just typing up a post on my blog I found myself talking about > it as digital media equipment self-encryption and of course went to > the initials to designate it DMESE. Obviously, I am not qualified to respond to James: I am not at his > level, and all this time, he has just been toying with us. So clever, > and I am totally crushed. Ok, ... now that I'm over that here's a Jim Ferry inspired puzzle. > Take, the letters DMESE, the acronym for JSH's newest creation (?) and > of James's work will *really* bring him. > Coupla E's short of Ed Meese ... === Subject: Re: War of attrition > The Math Wars are to me all about how some people with position and > power forget the power of the pen, and sit letting the pot slowly come > to a boil. When I feel a bit down--like if insulting posters start getting to me-- > I can do things like do Google searches on my open source project > Class Viewer which took the number one spot for that search string, > years ago. It is all over the world. I especially feel honored looking at the > Chinese page, where words I typed years ago to describe my project > have been translated. Honored ?? I don't think so, they were calling you a crackpot and showing why. > That is an odd feeling. And that is just one thing. Just a few days ago I started talking about a managed copy idea of > mine and just typing up a post on my blog I found myself talking about > it as digital media equipment self-encryption and of course went to > the initials to designate it DMESE. It is your new scam to make money by pirating videos and not get caught. > That is just one more thing. Archimedes said that with a level long enough and a place to stand he > could move the world because he could conceive of greatness on a scale > that most people cannot. Wrong, he was talking about the lever, wiki for it. > I can move the world. Talk is cheap. > Not one of you can say the same. How can you know the background of everybody that reads sci.math ? You cannot, therefore you are a lier. > My posts get translated to languages across the planet. I watch ideas > of mine travel around the world. You found one page translated into chinese, you cannot read it because it calls you a crackpot. Your ideas go nowhere, too bad you are not intellegent enough. > Yet I am still stopped by academics who are dead-set on fighting the > Math Wars to the bitter end, and mostly they just wait. you stop yourself, because you do not know mathamatics. Yes, Princeton academics can stop me today. Yes, Harvard academics > can hold the line today. They do not know or care about JSH. > But they burn everything their universities have built up over the > years in the process and I let them. > I emailed the University of California at Berkeley to note some > unethical behavior by Arturo Magidin, and noticed at that point that > Ralph McKenzie is listed as faculty, where it notes he is at my alma > mater Vanderbilt University. Vanderbilt has NO RECORD of you attending the school at all. > Yup, I know that as I visited him there years ago, before my paper was > published, retracted after sci.math'ers including Magidin trumped the > formal peer review system with some emails, and the freaking math > journal died. You admit you have never published a paper. > Academics can only sit and wait, while I move forward over time. > Knowing that at the end, I go for the entire system to reform it. And I will change their world. Going to send another......... email ? > I send papers to math journals and I damn well get a reply. Sure, > they're polite rejections but they had better reply to me. You are on their Loathing List, they will not waste their time with such a sourpuss like James Harris. > You people don't get it because I post among you, and you think that > because I post I must be at your level. Wrong, you think you are at our level, you clearly are far beneath us, you have no college math, and own no math books. > Yeah only to use you in the Math Wars. I want mathematicians around > the world to keep thinking about what you are thinking. I want them > working hard to figure out how well they have you in hand. I want them working to keep you. I want them to demean themselves, crawl on their hands and knees to > keep you believing in them. And they are doing it. No they are not, in fact they all are laughing at you, at your HUGE failure over years and years of being totally wrong. > While the war of attrition continues and it is all about inertia and > momentum as I have always needed time. If the world knew too quickly what my discoveries really are, you have yet to understand that what you post is worthless. > then the > true targets could have escaped, but now the net closes, and you are > the fish that were always part of the trap. You were always the bait. you consider yourself the master baiter ? They care so damn much about what you people think of them that they > are willing to lose everything, grasping for what they cannot hold. Public opinion is such a great thing. I love it. Public opinion is > all about perception. you are a crackpot and troll. People like Andrew Wiles are nothing without the applause or the > dreams of it. They'll hold on, and hold on, and hold on, and give > their energy, their very life blood to hold on to it, even if that is > the means that is used to build the energy to end the wars. you have no idea what he really does, do you? you are stuck in your head, making stuff up to justify your ego. > They give their life's blood for you to believe in them. And that is > the energy that drives this forward. That is the hope of the world. It was always about time. I have always needed time. Time has already passed you by. It is too late for the likes of you. You know this because you do not study math, or own a single math book. > James Harris > === Subject: Re: War of attrition > Vanderbilt has NO RECORD of you attending the school at all. Can you prove this? Dave === Subject: Re: War of attrition > Vanderbilt has NO RECORD of you attending the school at all. Can you prove this? Dave Sure just call Admissions and ask them, they can tell you if a person attended or not, but not much else. === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition > The Math Wars are to me all about how some people with position and > power forget the power of the pen, and sit letting the pot slowly come > to a boil. When I feel a bit down--like if insulting posters start getting to me-- > I can do things like do Google searches on my open source project > Class Viewer which took the number one spot for that search string, > years ago. It is all over the world. I especially feel honored looking at the > Chinese page, where words I typed years ago to describe my project > have been translated. That is an odd feeling. And that is just one thing. Just a few days ago I started talking about a managed copy idea of > mine and just typing up a post on my blog I found myself talking about > it as digital media equipment self-encryption and of course went to > the initials to designate it DMESE. That is just one more thing. Archimedes said that with a level long enough and a place to stand he > could move the world because he could conceive of greatness on a scale > that most people cannot. I can move the world. Not one of you can say the same. My posts get translated to languages across the planet. I watch ideas > of mine travel around the world. Yet I am still stopped by academics who are dead-set on fighting the > Math Wars to the bitter end, and mostly they just wait. Yes, Princeton academics can stop me today. Yes, Harvard academics > can hold the line today. But they burn everything their universities have built up over the > years in the process and I let them. I emailed the University of California at Berkeley to note some > unethical behavior by Arturo Magidin, and noticed at that point that > Ralph McKenzie is listed as faculty, where it notes he is at my alma > mater Vanderbilt University. Yup, I know that as I visited him there years ago, before my paper was > published, retracted after sci.math'ers including Magidin trumped the > formal peer review system with some emails, and the freaking math > journal died. Academics can only sit and wait, while I move forward over time. > Knowing that at the end, I go for the entire system to reform it. And I will change their world. I send papers to math journals and I damn well get a reply. Sure, > they're polite rejections but they had better reply to me. You people don't get it because I post among you, and you think that > because I post I must be at your level. Yeah only to use you in the Math Wars. I want mathematicians around > the world to keep thinking about what you are thinking. I want them > working hard to figure out how well they have you in hand. I want them working to keep you. I want them to demean themselves, crawl on their hands and knees to > keep you believing in them. And they are doing it. While the war of attrition continues and it is all about inertia and > momentum as I have always needed time. If the world knew too quickly what my discoveries really are, then the > true targets could have escaped, but now the net closes, and you are > the fish that were always part of the trap. You were always the bait. They care so damn much about what you people think of them that they > are willing to lose everything, grasping for what they cannot hold. Public opinion is such a great thing. I love it. Public opinion is > all about perception. People like Andrew Wiles are nothing without the applause or the > dreams of it. They'll hold on, and hold on, and hold on, and give > their energy, their very life blood to hold on to it, even if that is > the means that is used to build the energy to end the wars. They give their life's blood for you to believe in them. And that is > the energy that drives this forward. That is the hope of the world. It was always about time. I have always needed time. James Harris Anyone up for a sweepstake on how soon this bollocks gets deleted from GG? -Rotwang === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition The Math Wars are to me all about how some people with position and > power forget the power of the pen, and sit letting the pot slowly come > to a boil. When I feel a bit down--like if insulting posters start getting to me-- > I can do things like do Google searches on my open source project > Class Viewer which took the number one spot for that search string, > years ago. It is all over the world. I especially feel honored looking at the > Chinese page, where words I typed years ago to describe my project > have been translated. That is an odd feeling. And that is just one thing. Just a few days ago I started talking about a managed copy idea of > mine and just typing up a post on my blog I found myself talking about > it as digital media equipment self-encryption and of course went to > the initials to designate it DMESE. That is just one more thing. Archimedes said that with a level long enough and a place to stand he > could move the world because he could conceive of greatness on a scale > that most people cannot. I can move the world. Not one of you can say the same. My posts get translated to languages across the planet. I watch ideas > of mine travel around the world. Yet I am still stopped by academics who are dead-set on fighting the > Math Wars to the bitter end, and mostly they just wait. Yes, Princeton academics can stop me today. Yes, Harvard academics > can hold the line today. But they burn everything their universities have built up over the > years in the process and I let them. I emailed the University of California at Berkeley to note some > unethical behavior by Arturo Magidin, and noticed at that point that > Ralph McKenzie is listed as faculty, where it notes he is at my alma > mater Vanderbilt University. Yup, I know that as I visited him there years ago, before my paper was > published, retracted after sci.math'ers including Magidin trumped the > formal peer review system with some emails, and the freaking math > journal died. Academics can only sit and wait, while I move forward over time. > Knowing that at the end, I go for the entire system to reform it. And I will change their world. I send papers to math journals and I damn well get a reply. Sure, > they're polite rejections but they had better reply to me. You people don't get it because I post among you, and you think that > because I post I must be at your level. Yeah only to use you in the Math Wars. I want mathematicians around > the world to keep thinking about what you are thinking. I want them > working hard to figure out how well they have you in hand. I want them working to keep you. I want them to demean themselves, crawl on their hands and knees to > keep you believing in them. And they are doing it. While the war of attrition continues and it is all about inertia and > momentum as I have always needed time. If the world knew too quickly what my discoveries really are, then the > true targets could have escaped, but now the net closes, and you are > the fish that were always part of the trap. You were always the bait. They care so damn much about what you people think of them that they > are willing to lose everything, grasping for what they cannot hold. Public opinion is such a great thing. I love it. Public opinion is > all about perception. People like Andrew Wiles are nothing without the applause or the > dreams of it. They'll hold on, and hold on, and hold on, and give > their energy, their very life blood to hold on to it, even if that is > the means that is used to build the energy to end the wars. They give their life's blood for you to believe in them. And that is > the energy that drives this forward. That is the hope of the world. It was always about time. I have always needed time. James Harris Anyone up for a sweepstake on how soon this bollocks gets deleted from > GG? -Rotwang How long does it take to sober up? === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition >The Math Wars are to me all about how some people with position and >power forget the power of the pen, and sit letting the pot slowly come >to a boil. When I feel a bit down--like if insulting posters start getting to me-- >I can do things like do Google searches on my open source project >Class Viewer which took the number one spot for that search string, >years ago. It is all over the world. I especially feel honored looking at the >Chinese page, where words I typed years ago to describe my project >have been translated. That is an odd feeling. And that is just one thing. Just a few days ago I started talking about a managed copy idea of >mine and just typing up a post on my blog I found myself talking about >it as digital media equipment self-encryption and of course went to >the initials to designate it DMESE. That is just one more thing. Archimedes said that with a level long enough and a place to stand he >could move the world because he could conceive of greatness on a scale >that most people cannot. I can move the world. Not one of you can say the same. My posts get translated to languages across the planet. I watch ideas >of mine travel around the world. Yet I am still stopped by academics who are dead-set on fighting the >Math Wars to the bitter end, and mostly they just wait. Yes, Princeton academics can stop me today. Yes, Harvard academics >can hold the line today. But they burn everything their universities have built up over the >years in the process and I let them. I emailed the University of California at Berkeley to note some >unethical behavior by Arturo Magidin, and noticed at that point that >Ralph McKenzie is listed as faculty, where it notes he is at my alma >mater Vanderbilt University. Yup, I know that as I visited him there years ago, before my paper was >published, retracted after sci.math'ers including Magidin trumped the >formal peer review system with some emails, and the freaking math >journal died. Academics can only sit and wait, while I move forward over time. >Knowing that at the end, I go for the entire system to reform it. And I will change their world. I send papers to math journals and I damn well get a reply. Sure, >they're polite rejections You know, the idea that you're so proud of that huge pile of _rejection_ letters is simply pathetic. Also totally bizarre. Here's a thought experiment: Suppose someone else, some hypothetical person who wasn't a great genius but only thought he was, sent a lot of totally wrong crap to journals. What do you imagine would happen? A: He'd get a lot of polite rejection letters. (Hint: At first the letters would arrive very quickly, because it wouldn't take long to evaluate the guy's crap. After a while some journals might start taking longer to reply, when they realized that if they wait a few months on a paper that will give them a few months with no more submissions from the guy...) >but they had better reply to me. They had _better_ reply to you? Or else what, exactly? >You people don't get it because I post among you, and you think that >because I post I must be at your level. Yeah only to use you in the Math Wars. I want mathematicians around >the world to keep thinking about what you are thinking. I want them >working hard to figure out how well they have you in hand. I want them working to keep you. I want them to demean themselves, crawl on their hands and knees to >keep you believing in them. And they are doing it. While the war of attrition continues and it is all about inertia and >momentum as I have always needed time. If the world knew too quickly what my discoveries really are, then the >true targets could have escaped, but now the net closes, and you are >the fish that were always part of the trap. You were always the bait. They care so damn much about what you people think of them that they >are willing to lose everything, grasping for what they cannot hold. Public opinion is such a great thing. I love it. Public opinion is >all about perception. People like Andrew Wiles are nothing without the applause or the >dreams of it. They'll hold on, and hold on, and hold on, and give >their energy, their very life blood to hold on to it, even if that is >the means that is used to build the energy to end the wars. They give their life's blood for you to believe in them. And that is >the energy that drives this forward. That is the hope of the world. It was always about time. I have always needed time. Sigh. Repeated hint: The reason people talk as though you're a lunatic is that you make these posts that sound like a lunatic >James Harris ************************ David C. Ullrich === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition > The Math Wars are to me all about how some people with position and > power forget the power of the pen, and sit letting the pot slowly come > to a boil. When I feel a bit down--like if insulting posters start getting to me-- > I can do things like do Google searches on my open source project > Class Viewer which took the number one spot for that search string, > years ago. It is all over the world. I especially feel honored looking at the > Chinese page, where words I typed years ago to describe my project > have been translated. That is an odd feeling. And that is just one thing. So you're feeling honoured because that nice peace of software spreads. You should return to software business and make a living from selling your famous prime counting code. I'm not sure if one should boast too much about being spread for some simple tool. Otherwise I might take pride in the fact that my name is branded into a file on any debian based computer with any of apache, mailscanner, mpeglib, nfs-kernel-server, openoffice.org installed. :) hagman === Subject: Re: War of attrition > The Math Wars are to me all about how some people with position and > power forget the power of the pen, and sit letting the pot slowly come > to a boil. When I feel a bit down--like if insulting posters start getting to me-- > I can do things like do Google searches on my open source project > Class Viewer which took the number one spot for that search string, > years ago. It is all over the world. I especially feel honored looking at the > Chinese page, where words I typed years ago to describe my project > have been translated. That is an odd feeling. And that is just one thing. Just a few days ago I started talking about a managed copy idea of > mine and just typing up a post on my blog I found myself talking about > it as digital media equipment self-encryption and of course went to > the initials to designate it DMESE. That is just one more thing. Archimedes said that with a level long enough and a place to stand he > could move the world because he could conceive of greatness on a scale > that most people cannot. I can move the world. Not one of you can say the same. My posts get translated to languages across the planet. I watch ideas > of mine travel around the world. Yet I am still stopped by academics who are dead-set on fighting the > Math Wars to the bitter end, and mostly they just wait. Yes, Princeton academics can stop me today. Yes, Harvard academics > can hold the line today. But they burn everything their universities have built up over the > years in the process and I let them. I emailed the University of California at Berkeley to note some > unethical behavior by Arturo Magidin, and noticed at that point that > Ralph McKenzie is listed as faculty, where it notes he is at my alma > mater Vanderbilt University. Yup, I know that as I visited him there years ago, before my paper was > published, retracted after sci.math'ers including Magidin trumped the > formal peer review system with some emails, and the freaking math > journal died. Academics can only sit and wait, while I move forward over time. > Knowing that at the end, I go for the entire system to reform it. And I will change their world. I send papers to math journals and I damn well get a reply. Sure, > they're polite rejections but they had better reply to me. You people don't get it because I post among you, and you think that > because I post I must be at your level. Yeah only to use you in the Math Wars. I want mathematicians around > the world to keep thinking about what you are thinking. I want them > working hard to figure out how well they have you in hand. I want them working to keep you. I want them to demean themselves, crawl on their hands and knees to > keep you believing in them. And they are doing it. While the war of attrition continues and it is all about inertia and > momentum as I have always needed time. If the world knew too quickly what my discoveries really are, then the > true targets could have escaped, but now the net closes, and you are > the fish that were always part of the trap. You were always the bait. They care so damn much about what you people think of them that they > are willing to lose everything, grasping for what they cannot hold. Public opinion is such a great thing. I love it. Public opinion is > all about perception. People like Andrew Wiles are nothing without the applause or the > dreams of it. They'll hold on, and hold on, and hold on, and give > their energy, their very life blood to hold on to it, even if that is > the means that is used to build the energy to end the wars. They give their life's blood for you to believe in them. And that is > the energy that drives this forward. That is the hope of the world. It was always about time. I have always needed time. > James Harris > I've got news for you; you're no one special. In fact, you whine and cry explain that? I promise you that you're never going to get anywhere unless you actually know some math. Dave === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition > My posts get translated to languages across the planet. Of course they are! Why should all the fun be reserved for those who are able to read English? Jose Carlos Santos === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition James, I don't know how we did without you. Please don't go away again. === Subject: Re: JSH: War of attrition > The Math Wars are to me all about how some people with position and > power forget the power of the pen, and sit letting the pot slowly come > to a boil. > That's what they're about to you. To us it's about a funny clown who engages in amusing attempts at mathematics and very amusing rants. === Subject: The Demise of Basic Surveying Mathematics < < anacdotal data and not based on valid research? ---------------- http://www.amerisurv.com/content/view/3705/ Surveyors Report: The Demise of Basic Surveying Mathematics Written by Richard L. Elgin, PhD, LS, PE Where Have All the Trig Skills Gone? May I get on my soapbox and vent for just a bit? This has to do with the demise of basic surveying mathematics. Where has the knowledge of the basic math skills gone, knowledge on which our profession is founded? Where has the ability gone for those young people entering our profession to accomplish seemingly simple math problems? Where has the responsibility gone for teaching the basic math that is needed for a career in surveying? Each semester since the fall of 1980 (that's 52 of them), I have taught a first course in plane surveying. It has been a conventional, fundamentals course: differential and trigonometric leveling, direction and angles, latitudes and departures, polar to rectangular conversions (and the reverse), coordinates, areas, horizontal curves and vertical curves. The course has a lab component in which the students accomplish 13 field exercises. Over the years, the course and its labs have changed to reflect changing equipment, calculators (whatever happened to HP and RPN?), hardware and software. The Department has changed as well, recently reducing the number of credit hours to receive the B.S. in Civil Engineering degree. As a part of this reduction, the surveying course went from 4 to 3 credit hours. But something very troubling has changed during my many semesters teaching the class, and that is the distinct decline in the math skills of the students taking the class. This has especially been the case in the past decade or so. The rate of decline in the students' math skills has increased. In the old days, students entered the class with a generally excellent (by today's standards) understanding of algebra, trigonometry and geometry. I would say to the class Surveying is one big applied trigonometry class... and start teaching surveying. Triangle solutions? No problem. Calculate coordinates? No problem. Polar to rectangular and the reverse? No problem. Areas by coordinates? No problem. Applying geometry to horizontal circular curve nomenclature, then derive equations to compute curve parts? No problem. The students' general knowledge of algebra, trigonometry and geometry was excellent. There was no need to review or explain these subjects before jumping off into surveying. Missing the Basics Most of that has changed for the worse. The entering students' knowledge of the basic subjects of algebra, trigonometry and geometry has sunk to such a low level in the past five to ten years, that for all practical purposes I can say they have virtually none when it comes to being prepared to attack surveying. Discussing such pre- surveying topics as triangle solutions, orthogonal vectors calculation (i.e., latitudes and departures), even doing something simple as recognizing similar triangles when trying to derive horizontal curve equations just draws blank stares. What's the problem? I believe we can lay most of the blame at the feet of high school math curricula. In the old days, algebra, trigonometry and geometry were the staples of high school mathematics. Calculus was largely left to colleges and universities. It seems these days that high schools, in their rush to impress or seek prestige or to offer students the opportunity for AP (Advanced Placement) and to get college credit for their students prior to even entering college, have swept aside the basics of algebra, trigonometry and geometry to teach calculus. It's not cool to grind away at those basics, therefore let's help our students and offer calculus. Look at the titles of math courses in today's high schools. Don't expect to find a straight up course titled Trigonometry or Geometry. I'm told these subjects are inside courses like Math Methods or some such class. I believe surveying (as well as science and engineering) would be best served if high schools went back to the basics and taught straight up courses in algebra, trigonometry and geometry and leave calculus to colleges and universities. Pass a law: No calculus will hereafter be taught in high school. Forget math AP, it is a disservice to students and our profession. Give us students well founded in algebra, trigonometry and geometry! College Students Aren't the Only Ones But the problems of poor math skills for those entering or in the early years of our profession aren't limited to troubles with courses taken while in high school. It seems those doing survey calculations now rely almost totally on software. Gone are the days when surveying calculations were done on a calculator (aided by elementary survey programs). Azimuth and distance to stake a point from a known instrument position and backsight point? Where's the computer? Still needed is basic knowledge of surveying mathematics and the ability to solve those problems using a calculator along with skills in trigonometry and geometry. We can't be complete monkeys...yet. You don't believe this is true? Is it okay to be a trained monkey and only know which buttons to push in which order? If so, then what about the licensed surveyor exams? Trained monkeys can't pass the exams. That's good. State licensing boards are licensing professionals, and knowledge of basic surveying math and the ability to solve problems with a scientific calculator are a part of the exam process and part of being a surveying professional. So Who's Failing? As one who has worked on two states' state specific exams for many years, I can report that it seems the examinees' abilities to solve relatively simple coordinate geometry problems has declined. These typically are single proportion or double proportion problems using coordinates, applied to the U.S. Public Land Survey System (USPLSS). Lower skill levels in solving this type of problem is due either to lack of knowledge in using coordinate geometry and a scientific calculator or lack of knowledge in proportioning in the USPLSS. Either is not acceptable. Someone has failed those who fail these exams: either their surveying educators (by not teaching the right materials) or by the practitioners under whom the prospective licensees have been working (by not coaching the employee), or the examinee (by not being disciplined enough to prepare for the exam), or by whizzing by or ignoring trigonometry and geometry while in high school. It's sad to say, but it appears surveying education programs need to develop an early course in surveying titled something like Elementary Surveying Mathematics. The course would be algebra, trigonometry and geometry applied to surveying. Proportioning, coordinate geometry, areas, curves, coordinate transformations, rotations, setting out, all would be covered with healthy doses of homework. The calculation device would probably be limited to a scientific calculator. And, oh yes, have the course taught by a surveying educator with surveying practice background, not a mathematician. In the old days, this course would not be needed, the subject matter would have been taught inside other surveying courses to those with competent algebra, trigonometry, geometry and scientific calculator skills. Unfortunately today we are in the position of having to teach those skills to our own. Dr. Richard Elgin is President of Elgin Surveying & Engineering in Rolla, Missouri. He serves as Adjunct Professor of Surveying at the University of Missouri-Rolla (UMR), and is a principal in the firm of Elgin, Knowles & Senne, Inc. Editor's Note: Dr. Elgin is that rare combination of surveying practitioner and surveying educator. He was Assistant Professor of Civil Engineering at the University of Missouri Rolla (UMR) prior to purchasing the family surveying business (in 1984) which he now owns and operates. He now is Adjunct Professor of Surveying at UMR. He is a former Missouri Registration Board member, coauthor of the Sokkia Celestial Observation Handbook and Ephemeris, has written many questions for the NCEES surveying exams as well as other books and software with Drs. Knowles and Senne. He owns a large collection of early American surveying equipment, rides bicycles, plays tennis, and drives a perfectly restored 1964 Morgan. === Subject: Re: The Demise of Basic Surveying Mathematics ><teaching the class, and that is the distinct decline in the math >skills of the students taking the class. This has especially been the >case in the past decade or so. The rate of decline in the students' >math skills has increased.<feet of high school math curricula. In the old days, algebra, >trigonometry and geometry were the staples of high school mathematics. In the old days, almost no one took trigonometry, and algebra and geometry were staples of the cream of the university bound. Now the latter two are graduation requirements even for the terminal student. In the really old days, all three courses were college courses. 100 years ago, I doubt if trigonometry even existed as a high school course (not that there were all that many high schools back then). ><expect to find a straight up course titled Trigonometry or >Geometry. There was no course by the name Trigonometry when I was a kid either. It was one semester of the class that came after Algebra II, which was usually called Analytical Geometry >anacdotal data and not based on valid research? It could, but I would rather dismiss it as being narrow and lacking any sort of perspective. >In the old days, students entered the class with a generally >excellent (by today's standards) understanding of algebra, >trigonometry and geometry. I would say to the class Surveying is one >big applied trigonometry class... and start teaching surveying. >Triangle solutions? No problem. Calculate coordinates? No problem. >Polar to rectangular and the reverse? No problem. Areas by >coordinates? No problem. Applying geometry to horizontal circular >curve nomenclature, then derive equations to compute curve parts? No >problem. The students' general knowledge of algebra, trigonometry and >geometry was excellent. There was no need to review or explain these >subjects before jumping off into surveying. Missing the Basics >Most of that has changed for the worse. The entering students' >knowledge of the basic subjects of algebra, trigonometry and geometry >has sunk to such a low level in the past five to ten years, that for >all practical purposes I can say they have virtually none when it >comes to being prepared to attack surveying. Actually, they probably have had lots of instruction in those subjects, but not much emphasis on that which is applicable to surveying. >Discussing such pre-surveying topics as triangle solutions, orthogonal vectors calculation >(i.e., latitudes and departures), Vectors were not generally taught in high school math back then. It got added in the 60s as the last chapter of the Geometry textbook that the classes rarely got to (and when they did, it was in steamy June when the kids were all tuned out). Vectors got a little more treatment in mathematically based physics courses. >even doing something simple as recognizing similar triangles Kids learn the term similar triangles in 10th grade, and then without a shred of application. They don't use it again until college. Why would anyone expect them to recognize them. >when trying to derive horizontal curve equations just draws blank stares. The term horizontal curve equations associated with triangle draws a blank stare from me, too. Kids know that curves are things you slow down for when driving. >What's the problem? I believe we >can lay most of the blame at the feet of high school math curricula. But it isn't. The problem is the sheer irrelevance of math terminology most of the time, so that kids forget the stuff by the end of the summer following the class. >In the old days, algebra, trigonometry and geometry were the staples >of high school mathematics. Calculus was largely left to colleges and >universities. And many kids took College algebra as their entry level class in college math, too, so there wasn't an assumption that they learned algebra unless they were going into a mathematical field. >But the problems of poor math skills for those entering or in the >early years of our profession aren't limited to troubles with courses >taken while in high school. It seems those doing survey calculations >now rely almost totally on software. Gone are the days when surveying >calculations were done on a calculator (aided by elementary survey >programs). Calculator? When I grew up, it was slide rule, or pencil and paper. Calculators started to come in when I was already well-into college, but were frightfully expensive and their use was frowned upon by the professors. >State licensing boards are licensing professionals, and >knowledge of basic surveying math and the ability to solve problems >with a scientific calculator are a part of the exam process and part >of being a surveying professional. But of course, who in high school has the slightest interest in becoming a surveying professional. The only surveyors that a high schooler sees are construction workers who are subject to the generalization that they are probably illegal aliens with little education. >So Who's Failing? >As one who has worked on two states' state specific exams for many >years, I can report that it seems the examinees' abilities to solve >relatively simple coordinate geometry problems has declined. Coordinate geometry was in that 4th year high school class I mentioned. In 1970, in a school with 2000 students, around half a classful, maybe 15 kids, took the class each year (calculus wasn't even offered). In algebra class, kids learn some coordinate geometry, but it is limited to slopes of lines, and maybe quadratics. >Lower skill levels in solving this type of problem is due either to >lack of knowledge in using coordinate geometry and a scientific >calculator or lack of knowledge in proportioning in the USPLSS. Either >is not acceptable. And no one who isn't a surveyor really gives a damn. >Someone has failed those who fail these exams: >either their surveying educators (by not teaching the right materials) They might be teaching the right materials, but they are ignoring where the students are when they come into the class. >or by the practitioners under whom the prospective licensees have been >working (by not coaching the employee) Why would they do that? Their object is to MAKE MONEY FAST, not serve as a surrogate college. Employers don't feel any obligation to the system, only to their bottom line. Otherwise they get bought out. The concept of industry serving as a quasi-apprentice system is dying because industry has short-term profits to worry about more than the future of their field. > or the examinee (by not being disciplined enough to prepare for the exam), Discipline? What's that? Kid's don't prepare for exams any more. They are too busy passing classes, and trying to MAKE MONEY FAST in their spare time. They expect the teacher to prepare them for the exam. Of course reality may set in once they have failed the exam once. But there is no stigma in failing the exam a couple of times. That probably more than anything else explains the symptoms. Their way to prepare for the exam is to take the exam, and then take it again if needed. Probably a pretty good strategy too. >or by whizzing by or ignoring trigonometry and geometry while in high school. They might have. Or more likely they forgot it, because they haven't used it since high school. >It's sad to say, but it appears surveying education programs need to >develop an early course in surveying titled something like Elementary >Surveying Mathematics. The course would be algebra, trigonometry and >geometry applied to surveying. Proportioning, coordinate geometry, >areas, curves, coordinate transformations, rotations, setting out, >all would be covered with healthy doses of homework. The calculation >device would probably be limited to a scientific calculator. And, oh >yes, have the course taught by a surveying educator with surveying >practice background, not a mathematician. Now you have the right idea. Mathematicians try to teach kids to prove theorems, not calculate solutions. I suspect that you wouldn't need a full course though. Probably the first 2-3 weeks of the class could serve as an intensive review. The kids probably HAVE had it before, but haven't ever USED it. >In the old days, this course would not be needed, In the old days, the number of kids going to college was limited. And the numbers of college kids who would consider a course in surveying was even more limited. In 1970-71, the total of all kids getting bachelors degrees in civil total is around 7827, and only 1/2% of graduates. Why would high schools go out of their way to prepare kids for a low-demand unglamorous field? lojbab === Subject: Re: The Demise of Basic Surveying Mathematics teaching the class, and that is the distinct decline in the math >skills of the students taking the class. This has especially been the >case in the past decade or so. The rate of decline in the students' >math skills has increased.<feet of high school math curricula. In the old days, algebra, >trigonometry and geometry were the staples of high school mathematics. In the old days, almost no one took trigonometry, and algebra and > geometry were staples of the cream of the university bound. Now the > latter two are graduation requirements even for the terminal student. When I attended the public school system in Everett, MA, we were introduced to trigonometry in Algebra II. It was covered in much greater depth in our 12th-grade Advanced Mathematics course, which was taken by about 150 out of 450 seniors. See the Table of Contents at: http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=1466613&tstart=0 === Subject: Reform math at issue in Seattle schools SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/317657_mathwars29.html Reform math at issue in Seattle schools Tuesday, May 29, 2007 By ROBERT FEMIANO AND DANAHER M. DEMPSEY JR. GUEST COLUMNISTS The Seattle School Board is poised to make its most important academic decision in decades: whether to remain on the reform math bandwagon. We urge members to look beneath the glittery wrapping of Reform math, learn the lessons of California, Massachusetts and Indiana and not adopt more inquiry-based math programs. Sometimes called discovery or investigative math, reform math has students constructing their own understanding of math concepts. Unfortunately, the more efficient traditional algorithms (such as long division), along with automatic factual recall and mental manipulations, are generally downplayed in the teacher's handbook with a why bother deference to the ubiquitous calculator. While we applaud teaching for conceptual understanding, we cringe at the thought of a program devoid of basic skill development that produces students unsure of their own abilities and unready for higher- level math and science classes. Reform math has been used in Seattle, Shoreline, Bellevue, Lake Washington and numerous other districts for the past five years and its impact is noted at Seattle Community College where 78 percent of the entering students test into remedial math, with 50 percent testing at or below ninth grade. An ineffective curriculum affects all students; thus the School Board needs to honestly address the following concerns: (1) Is Investigative math an appropriate avenue for closing the achievement gaps for children of poverty and students learning English? The 25-year longitudinal research on poverty-bound elementary students, known as Project Follow-Through, indicates that discovery teaching is least effective in developing conceptual understanding for disadvantaged students. The project's data showed greatest success when students were given explicit instruction and practice supplemented with manipulative models that underlie arithmetic thinking, such as place value blocks. We know that direct instruction can move beyond rote learning and be both rigorous and cognitively engaging. We have seen the soaring successes in California with low-income and bilingual populations since the state abandoned their experimental, reform math. We have not seen the School Board given statistically reliable data to ensure the proposed adoption will eliminate the achievement gap. (2) Is the expensive outlay worth the return? The $2.5 million Everyday Math textbook adoption has a layout so bewildering it requires teacher training and a math coach in every building, according to district plans. In 2006, the School Board projected a deficit of $22 million rising to $55 million by 2010, so how can the district afford an additional $4 million annually in coaches, not to mention the professional training and expensive consumable texts? We suspect that in order to afford such a fiscally intensive program, class sizes will have to dramatically increase -- in opposition to the top recommendation of Gov. Chris Gregoire's Washington Learns commission. (3) The Washington State Board of Education has established a math advisory panel to assist in revising the math standards, so why not wait for the results of their work? Not long ago, the Fordham Institute gave Washington's math standards an F, in part because the grade level expectations are too numerous to develop true mastery, a common mistake also found in reform math textbooks. For example, Washington has 20 topics outlined for first grade whereas the Singapore Math series covers only five. Similarly, 82 topics are included for grades first through fourth and only 42 are routinely covered in the top performing countries. Thus, it would seem prudent to hold off on any textbook adoption until these standards are renewed. We urge parents and businesses to further familiarize themselves with the concerns around reform math by visiting Web sites Wheresthemath.org or schooltruth.org. Finally, you may want to contact the board (206-252-0040) or attend their textbook adoption meeting at 6 p.m. Wednesday. Robert Femiano teaches elementary school and was the Washington State Presidential math teacher of the year 2002. Danaher M. Dempsey Jr. teaches high school math and is on the state Board of Education math advisory panel. === Subject: Calculating the effects of discovery math Bruce Ramsey / Times editorial columnist Calculating the effects of discovery math Nearly 100 readers commented on my attack on reform math in the Sunday Times Opinion section of April 22. More than 93 percent - not a level I'm used to - supported my position, which was that the discovery method of math wastes kids' time, that its group work promotes freeloading and that its reliance on calculators leaves students unable to solve problems on their own. The only group against me was college professors. One at the University of Washington compared my argument to creationism, and a professor emeritus at Seattle University accused me of demagoguery. Both said my arguments weren't supported by the data. They were supported, however, by experience. A mother in Everett calculator-dependent ... The math skills she lacks stem from the fact that she never learned her basic math facts. She doesn't know how to do long division. She relies on her calculator for simple math problems. Says a Bellevue mom with a son, 15: Students are told to create their own algorithms to solve addition and subtraction problems, and these algorithms are frequently incomplete and unreliable. [Students] are presented with a little probability, introduced to matrices, presented with a smattering of this and that, but never achieve mastery of a topic. They are not taught long division. They are taught to use calculators to do the most simple problems. Writes a Redmond mom: Our fifth-grader has not been taught how to multiply double-digit numbers without a calculator, or what the heck to do with long division. A Shoreline dad helping his seventh-grade daughter had forgotten the rule for solving a math problem. He discovered that the rule wasn't in the book. The kids were supposed to figure it out themselves. Math, he grumbled, was being taught like philosophy, with no set rules and right answers. fours so that kids could solve problems in groups. The Bellevue mom said that it was the most dominant person who would solve the problem, leaving the others no wiser. A Spokane dad asked: Do the kids take the WASL in groups? The WASL test, which is geared to the reform math, was another irritant. Who the hell is writing these questions? complained a retired Boeing exec who mentors students in Bellevue. The ones I saw contained a lot of extraneous and often confusing information. This was really bad for minority students who may not speak English properly. Only a handful of readers defended reform math. One was a Seattle think and understand instead of calculate. I'd much rather have my kid learn the process of discovery, which will serve him well throughout his life, than of becoming a Texas Instrument. That the curriculum baffles parents and doesn't make good test takers does not bother me in the least. Instead, I see this as a strength. No other reader cited low test scores as a strength. Several said reform math had created a whole new market for Sylvan, Kumon or private tutors. A Redmond mom who moved from California three years ago plans to home-school her seventh-grader in math. A Boeing engineer says he is constantly amazed by the gap in math skills between our junior American engineers and those educated in any other country, especially those with the British system of education. He and his wife are teaching their two kids at home, using Singapore Math. Another e-mail was from a Marysville-Pilchuck High School graduate who scored so low on a math placement test that it shocked him. worked with them, retook the test, and placed himself three levels higher. He is now graduating from the University of Washington, Bruce Ramsey's column appears regularly on editorial pages of The Times. His e-mail address is bramsey@seattletimes.com === Subject: Re: Calculating the effects of discovery math >Nearly 100 readers commented on my attack on reform math in the >Sunday Times Opinion section of April 22. More than 93 percent - not a >level I'm used to - supported my position, which was that the >discovery method of math wastes kids' time, that its group work >promotes freeloading and that its reliance on calculators leaves >students unable to solve problems on their own. The only group against me was college professors. One at the >University of Washington compared my argument to creationism, and a >professor emeritus at Seattle University accused me of demagoguery. >Both said my arguments weren't supported by the data. They were supported, however, by experience. The experience of the college professors doesn't count, while the experience of a mother of an 8th grader does? >A mother in Everett >calculator-dependent ... And this is bad because ...? >The math skills she lacks stem from the fact >that she never learned her basic math facts. She doesn't know how to >do long division. She relies on her calculator for simple math >problems. So? That eliminates the likelihood of arithmetic mistakes. >Writes a Redmond mom: Our fifth-grader has not been taught how to >multiply double-digit numbers without a calculator, or what the heck >to do with long division. Of course they were taught those things. And then they learned how to do it with a calculator and promptly forgot. Why bother remembering something they don't need? >The Bellevue mom said that it was the most dominant person who would >solve the problem, leaving the others no wiser. If she wasn't in the classroom, how would she know? >A Spokane dad asked: Do the kids take the WASL in groups? The WASL test, which is geared to the reform math, was another >irritant. Who the hell is writing these questions? complained a >retired Boeing exec who mentors students in Bellevue. The ones I saw >contained a lot of extraneous and often confusing information. This >was really bad for minority students who may not speak English >properly. Sorry, but real life problems have lots of extraneous and confusing information. Part of being educated is being able to weed out the extraneous. lojbab === Subject: Re: Calculating the effects of discovery math On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:00:48 -0400, something compelled Bob LeChevalier , to say: >The math skills she lacks stem from the fact >that she never learned her basic math facts. She doesn't know how to >do long division. She relies on her calculator for simple math >problems. So? That eliminates the likelihood of arithmetic mistakes. Wow. I can't imagine what it would be like to walk around in the world without being able to do simple multiplication and division in my head. -- Life is too short to play cheap guitars. === Subject: Re: Calculating the effects of discovery math >On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:00:48 -0400, something compelled Bob >LeChevalier , to say: >The math skills she lacks stem from the fact >that she never learned her basic math facts. She doesn't know how to >do long division. She relies on her calculator for simple math >problems. > So? That eliminates the likelihood of arithmetic mistakes. >Wow. I can't imagine what it would be like to walk around in the world >without being able to do simple multiplication and division in my >head. I can do even non-simple arithmetic in my head. But even I have made an error on occasion. I used to calculate a running total in my head as my mother did the shopping, and I got the right answer most of the time. But I wouldn't want to trust the store clerk to do the same. lojbab === Subject: Re: Calculating the effects of discovery math > On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:00:48 -0400, something compelled Bob > LeChevalier , to say: >The math skills she lacks stem from the fact >that she never learned her basic math facts. She doesn't know how to >do long division. She relies on her calculator for simple math >problems. So? That eliminates the likelihood of arithmetic mistakes. > Wow. I can't imagine what it would be like to walk around in the world > without being able to do simple multiplication and division in my > head. I can't for myself, either. But the truth is that even before calculators became cheap and abundant most people could not do calculations in their heads. In college we used slide rules to calculate. Are slide rules bad like calculators? For hundreds of years people used log tables to simplify calculations. Are they bad? Before then there were abaci and other devices. The truth is that math calculations are mostly rote, and most people don;t perform these rote actions often enough to remain proficient at them. Anything that helps accuracy is goodness. Larry > -- > Life is too short to play cheap guitars. === Subject: Re: Calculating the effects of discovery math <9ag063pvh305r6raofif9liog27em8tfsv@4ax.com> <3cr063pasiomirqmrd2sjn53skcpsfmpdt@4ax.comOn Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:00:48 -0400, something compelled Bob > LeChevalier , to say: >The math skills she lacks stem from the fact >that she never learned her basic math facts. She doesn't know how to >do long division. She relies on her calculator for simple math >problems. So? That eliminates the likelihood of arithmetic mistakes. Wow. I can't imagine what it would be like to walk around in the world > without being able to do simple multiplication and division in my > head. I can't imagine what it's like to think in French. > -- > Life is too short to play cheap guitars. === Subject: minimum dfa for prime testing How many states will the smallest DFA have which can decide if a binary string of length n is prime? For example, I can build a DFA with 7 states that accepts the strings 010, 011,101,111, and rejects the other threee digit strings. If I wanted a DFA that tested primality for all 32 bit integers, how many states would I need. Ken === Subject: Re: Bulletin is sitting on this one goes on and on and on. Hey Harris/Bassam, don't you mean The Queen will not be denied? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha As a matter of fact that there is no democracy when the QUEEN gives the orders, then others should obey blindly unless they are betrayers to the queen ... And people born with equal sign = in their mind will rise up again to spread justice every where on this sphere with the orders of the QUEEN I don't blame you since you may haven't heard about the new definition of the real number where no place for ZERO, You won't like it, but be careful it is the orders of the Queen Now, It is the time to tell you a message from the QUEEN And there are few things you should realize that some of the Queen's SECRETS have been revealed, ... Still the Queen is there in every time and where waiting your last digit to be infinite === Subject: Re: Bulletin is sitting on this one James Harris > But, you really need to learn what a complex number is first. Wiki for it. === Subject: Re: Bulletin is sitting on this one > that > they're rather quick with rejections, which is all I've gotten > over > the years, so I don't spend much time wondering about them, > versus > like the freaking Annals of Mathematics which is now on my crap > list. > They keep you waiting for the inevitable rejection, where they > never > give a good reason either! > So like I said after I tested things a bit with some posts on > newsgroups--which is one of the purposes for my posting as I look > to > see if people can point out errors--I sent my paper off to number > theorists around the world from Australia to Washington state > here > in > the US, and I submitted it for publication to the Bulletin of the > And I haven't heard back from them, which is a first! They're > usually > quick with a rejection, normally from the chief editor. Maybe > that > person is on vacation? > In any event, in the meantime the paper has changed! I've been > fiddling with it after arguing with people as I realize I can add > clarity in various ways. > The CURRENT paper is on a page at my Extreme Mathematics Google > Group: > The direct link to the pdf is: > But now I'm at a bit of a loss, as I'm just waiting on rejection > from > the Bulletin, which has an older draft, but then again, maybe I > should > update them with the current paper? But how? > One thing I know is that no matter what happens the American > Mathematical Society will despise me, which is kind of funny. > A major amateur mathematician hated by the organization for > mathematics in his own country. > But that is America--the land of contradictions. So brilliant in > so > many ways, and so completely lost in others. > But I like it. Of course it helps to see the humor in it. > James Harris > Your paper is full of obvious errors. > If you can't check the paper yourself, to make sure it is correct, > why > should they take time to bother with you? > You will never hear from them. > I have always heard before. I do this rather regularly. > ALWAYS before, I'd get a rather quick email in reply, usually from > the > chief editor. It's just a perk of being me. > You on the other hand may not get a reply. > I always do. > Um, what errors? > ___JSH > JSH doesn't give a crap about the math. All he wants is fame and > fortune. > Dave And you care about math? You loser who'd rather fight for faux proofs > than admit basic math? You care about your job. You are scared that if the truth comes out then all your posts come > back to haunt you, and you'll be fired. Guess what? You will. You coward. I can be crazy. Most mathematical geniuses at my level are freaking > bonkers. But what's your excuse? Everything I've said before fits in with who I am. It's hard to stay sane with knowledge like I have. It's hard to > control the truth fighting to be freed through you without your > choice. The genie will not be denied. But that is my burden and my pain that > goes on and on and on. What's your excuse? ___JSH I have a job because I know the math and I don't rely on someone to tell > me You have a job because the people in charge of you keep you. If it is true that I am this great discoverer, and your posts get back > to your employers, then reasonably, you can expect that you no longer > will have a job, as they will no longer want to keep you. That is your motivation. You ARE a coward. You do not give a damn about mathematics and THAT is why you will be > fired, not because of your previous posts, but because of these recent > ones. Mathematics is not just some thing, something you can use to feel > important. Without mathematics we would not have human civilization. People like you are a threat to the future of humanity itself. Make no mistake, I will feel no pity, and show no mercy. None of my predecessors did, not Newton, not Archimedes. And neither will I. > James Harris > And if you're wrong? Dave (A real Mathematician) === Subject: Is BP Foundation supporting pseudo-education? http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-01 -2007/0004599955&EDATE= BP Foundation Earns Award for Its Support of the University of Chicago School Mathematics Project Project Publishes Math Curriculum Through Wright Group/McGraw-Hill CHICAGO, June 1 /PRNewswire/ -- The BP Foundation (formerly the AmocoFoundation) has been honored by the Council on Foundations, a membership organization of more than 2,000 grant-making foundations and giving programs worldwide, for its support of the University of Chicago School Mathematics Project (UCSMP). The BP Foundation has provided a total of $8.4 million to UCSMP since it helped establish the project in 1983. UCSMP is the nation's largest university-based mathematics curriculum project. Its programs -- PreK-Grade 6 Everyday Mathematics and the UCSMP curriculum for Grades 6-12 (3rd edition) -- are published by Wright Group/McGraw- Hill, providing continuity for students and streamlining their mathematics education. UCSMP is a multifaceted project that aims to improve mathematics education for students in all grades. Its hallmarks have been to upgrade the school mathematics experience for the average student, to even out the pace of instruction, and to incorporate real-world uses of mathematics into the student's classwork at all levels. Students need a strong foundation in mathematics to prepare for their futures, said Zalman Usiskin, professor of education and director of UCSMP. UCSMP is focused on helping them succeed through the programs we develop. Wright Group is publishing the third editions of PreK-Grade 6 Everyday Mathematics, as well as Transition Mathematics and UCSMP Algebra in its secondary curriculum this year. Other courses in the UCSMP secondary curriculum will follow in future years, and all third- edition materials will be available by Fall 2009. All of us at the Wright Group are very proud of our association with UCSMP and the proven success of the programs, said Bodie Marx, executive vice president of Wright Group/McGraw-Hill. The support the BP Foundation has provided to UCSMP has been integral in providing outstanding mathematical instruction to America's students, and we are pleased that they have been recognized for that contribution to education. The Critical Impact Awards were established by the Council on Foundations in 2007 to recognize grants that have made a demonstrated impact on the common good -- locally, nationally, and/or globally -- and can serve as models for others in philanthropy. The University of Chicago School Mathematics Project is one of the most significant education investments that BP Foundation has made in its 55-year history, said Patricia Wright, president of the BP Foundation. Education has been the cornerstone of BP Foundation support for many years. About Everyday Mathematics Wright Group/McGraw-Hill's PreK-Grade 6 mathematics program Everyday Mathematics helps students measure up to the demand for greater mathematical competence and problem-solving ability. Developed by UCSMP, the research-based curriculum coincides with standards established by the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics and is used in nearly 185,000 classrooms across the United States by more than 3 million children. About the UCSMP Secondary Curriculum The UCSMP Secondary Curriculum for grades 6-12 emphasizes problem- solving, everyday applications, and the use of technology, while developing and maintaining basic skills. This research-based curriculum is also used in every state. About the BP Foundation The BP Foundation provides grants worldwide to schools and non- profit, charitable organizations located in communities where BP operates. The Foundation also administers an employee matching program and provides support for disaster relief/humanitarian aid efforts. About the Council on Foundations The Council on Foundations is a membership organization of more than 2,000 grant-making foundations and giving programs worldwide. The council provides the opportunity, leadership and tools needed by philanthropic organizations to expand, enhance and sustain their ability to advance the common good. Visit http://www.cof.org for more information. About Wright Group/McGraw-Hill Wright Group/McGraw-Hill publishes innovative, alternative core and supplemental literacy and mathematics programs for differentiated instruction and teacher training in Grades Pre-K-12. The research- based approach is anchored in real-world applications and is based on the assessed needs of students, combining developmentally appropriate materials with explicit outcomes. Wright Group is part of McGraw-Hill Education, a leading global provider of instructional, assessment and reference solutions that empower the success of professionals and students of all ages. McGraw- Hill Education has offices in 33 countries and publishes in more than 40 languages. Additional information is available at http://www.mheducation.com For more information on Wright Group's products, call 1-800-648-2970 or visit http://www.wrightgroup.com. === Subject: Teaching algebra in second grade Now I have a much better grasp of why so many college students are placed in remedial algebra classes. I must tell our director of placement testing to purchase Base 10 blocks, number lines, etc., and allow students to use them on the placement test. I will also put in an order for these items for use in my remedial classes. http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/educatingmom/archives/115426.asp My 2nd grader was telling me this morning about how her class was STRATEGIZING the math problem 100-X=85. They were allowed to come up with their own ways of finding the answer using Base 10 blocks, number lines, etc. One girl took the 85 and broke it down into 80+5, then added 20 to the 80 to get 100, then subtracted 5 from the 20 and got the answer of 15. === Subject: Re: Teaching algebra in second grade >Now I have a much better grasp of why so many college students are >placed in remedial algebra classes. I must tell our director of >placement testing to purchase Base 10 blocks, number lines, etc., >and allow students to use them on the placement test. I will also put >in an order for these items for use in my remedial classes. > The student below is a second grader, not a high school student. Younger students often need visuals and concrete representations to help them understand what they are doing. Note that the student below understood how to break up the numbers and how to use the properties of numbers to come up with a solution (and her solution was correct). The fact that she did not do this using the standard algebraic notation doesn't seem to me to be a problem. Certainly she understands her own procedure and it works to break down problems into easier problems. That doesn't mean that she should not later be taught the standard way of doing such problems. Now, in high school, presumably, she would get beyond using manipulatives to help and she would probably quickly learn the procedure for adding equals to both sides of an equation to solve it. One of the problems that I've had with high school algebra students involves the fact that they have trouble understanding adding anything but numbers to both sides of an equation. OTOH, I had a student tell her mother that algebra was like *cheating* because when you do all the steps the answer just falls out. >http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/educatingmom/archives/115426.asp >My 2nd grader was telling me this morning about how her class was >STRATEGIZING the math problem 100-X=85. They were allowed to come up >with their own ways of finding the answer using Base 10 blocks, number >lines, etc. One girl took the 85 and broke it down into 80+5, then >added 20 to the 80 to get 100, then subtracted 5 from the 20 and got >the answer of 15. Just because she didn't use algebraic notation does not mean she wasn't using algebraic reasoning even if she used more steps than most people would. Her reasoning was correct. Algebraically, she did this: 100 - x = 85 100 - x + x = 85 + x 100 = 80 + 5 + x 100 - 80 = 5 + x 20 = 5 + x 20 - 5 = 5 - 5 + x 15 = x That's pretty sophisticated for 2nd grade, don't you think? -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits