Do all of your people who reject evolution reject it because of
faulty facts or rather a preference for Hebrew mythology, including
animals and plants appearing without ancestors on creation week.
If it is because of the scientific facts supporting animals and
plants without ancestors, what scientific reference work includes
this amazing proposal.
Evolution is as fully accepted by the scientific community as the
theory the earth circles the sun, and for similar reasons, verified
facts having good predictive value. The Christians of earlier times
and some even today rejected the sun centered astronomy for
theological reasons similar to those used today to oppose evolution. 
If you chose to be consistent, you would also attack the teaching of
heliocentricism with the same vigor you attack evolution.
They are both just theories.

The Bible is a religion book, not strictly a history book. It contains some
genuine historical material. The Koran is derived from the Bible and is hardly
a reliable source of such material. Encyclopedias will mention Adam and Noah
as characters in the Bible, without accepting their historicity. The rest of
the encyclopedias describes the history of the earth and mankind in terms of
modern ideas like geology and evolution. Now find one which accepts the young
earth and world wide flood as genuine history rather than .
<There are two basic ways of determining the devil's work.  Jesus
said in John 10:10 that the devil steals, kills, and destroys.  When you
see this kind of evil activity it is most likely the devil or man.>
The Bible tells of God killing people directely and ordering His
servents to kill some more, including little babies. He ordered the
stealing of other people's lands. A complete list of God's supposed
activites shows an antihuman attitude, topped with the claim that He
will burn most of them eternally in Hell.

The physical record shows humans have a very long history on earth, going back
millions of years, in one form or another. Nothing found so far indicates the
Adam story is more than Hebrew mythology, as is the Noah story. Tell me who
painted up the European caves with
pictures of ice age animals.
What science book or encyclopedia accepts your story as actual events?
Recently, new human fossil bones about 800,000 years old were found in
Spain. What explanation do you have for these? it was widely reported
recently.

If you choose to follow Hebrew mythology rather than the combined findings of
the whole scientific community, that is your business.
It took the Catholic Church from 1632 until about 1985 to finally admit that
the earth circles the sun. Many Christians still support the earth centered
astronomy, relying totally on the Bible on the matter.
If you know of any scientists who support a young earth, animals without
ancestors and a world wide flood, what professional journal can I read their
claims in? If they do not submit their claims to the refereddd professional
journals then they will ot be properly judged by their prodessional peers.
Scientifically trained people can suffer from religious delusions, which warps
their judgement. 
The partially minerally bones were mammoths from the Pleistocene and less than
20,000 years old. Dino bones are all older than 65 million years old and found
mineralized, and always associated with extinct life forms. 
If the Bible is all true then the earth and universe are only a few thousands
of years old, there were trees before sun, moon and stars. Birds appeared
before creeping things, bats are birds, whales are fish, hares chew their cud,
the sun stood still for a day and even backed up. None of these claims are
supported by physical reality. Tell me about the fire breathing Leviathans.
Where can I find these things in encyclopedias or science reference works or
even history books? These stories resemble greatly the fantastic stories of
other ancient prescientific people. 
If any story in the Bible can be refuted it is the flood of Noah.
There is no date which matches historical data, the traditional date being
about 2600 BC, the third Egyptian dynasty when they were building pyramids.
There is no source for the water and no way to get rid of it. The ice caps
with 160,000 yearly layers survive intact.
The ocean sediments show the end of the ice age as the last world event, about
12,000 years ago. The animals and plants could not get to their present place
from Turkey. Think about Australia and the Americas. Half of all species neet
rain forest environments.
Most isolated places have species found only there and nowhere else
in the world, indicating evolution in place rather than migration from Turkey.
If you can give facts and details supporting the flood story as literal
history, then give it a try. Any story can be "saved" by a sufficient number
of miracles so if you rely on these then it is an admission it would take a
miracle to save your stories.
I have been to quite a few religious meetings and saw much hysteria
but no obvious miracles. Maybe I went the wrong day.

If there could be one error there could be more. I just gave the most obvious
one, even a Christian could understand. I could give many more. How many
errors does it take to show the Bible is a fallible human work? My science
books contain errors but they are not
presented as the Word of God. 
The major errors not typos in the Bible are the six day creation, animals
without ancestors and the world wide flood. The sun standing still and backing
up are two more errors. 
<I maintain that the heart of God is communicated clearly in the Bible.>
How many Christian denominations and cults are there? The fact they differ on
the nature and will of God indicates that it is not all
that clear.
There is some good history in the Bible but the same evidence shows
there is some bad history and even fraud in the Bible.

I seek to collect knowledge as it helps me understand the world around me and
helps keep me from being misled by religious fanatics and other mistaken
people. 
Atheism is merely the observation that no evidence exists for the reality of
any deities. I see nothing in all physical reality to supporet yhe activities
of any deities. What can you show and where can it be seen? What fact am I
ignoring?
The dinos and Hebrews never met. The Hebrews got their stories of Leviathan
and Behemoth from an expanded myth of the hippo and crocodile. Their story
tellers had good imaginations.
All dino remains found so far are totally mineralized and associated only with
Mesozoic age formations and other extinct species.
Tell me any natural boundaries between the minor changes observed in a few
years and major changes observed over great times in the fossil record. There
seems to be no reason that large changes can not occur over large periods of
time. The three toed horses are not just genetic mutations like polydactylism
but a whole species with that characteristic. I suggest you read HEN'S TEETH
AND HORSE'S TOES by Gould which discusses this in detail. 
Darwin did not invent the idea of evolution. He produced a mechanism called
natural selection which explained how it worked.
Other mechanisms have been observed too but natural selection is still a major
part of the accepted model of scientific relity.
The universe is not limited to those things which you can understand and
accept. I have met many Christians who reject the idea the earth circles the
sun because of their total reliance on Biblical authority. You have much in
common with these people. 
All things in science are disputable and the intermediate species are included
also. The rate of speciation can be fast or slow and intermediates tend to be
restricted in space and time
so their chance of being fossilized and found and are small. I suggest you
look a hundred miles in any direction for any modern species which has become
fossilized, even a single blade of grass. The vast majority of all living
things never get fossilized.
The Flood story is not historical as there is NO physical evidence of it
having happened. No source of additional water exists in the earth and sky.
The ice caps with 240,000 yearly layers survive. The ocean sedimants show the
end of the ice age as the last worldwide event. The distribution of animals
and plants show they did not migrate from Turkey a few thousands of years ago.
The geologists and
historians do not recognize the story as more than an expanded mythologized
story of major local floods. What evidence can you offer from physical reality
to support the story as an actual event?
The physical evidence shows the earth is 4.55 billion years old and the
universe far older. Direct observation shows light arriving from galaxies
billions of light years away. The fossils and formations of
earth show a very great age.
The stories of the sun standing still and backing up are not reflected in
eclipse records which should show a break in natural processes in the solar
system. 
The Bible sometimes disagrees with itself. How old was Ahaziah when
he bacame king, 22 or 42? 
If he was 42 he would be two years older than his 40 year old father.
Was Jehoiachin replaced by his uncle or brother Zedekiah?
Some Bible versions like the NIV correct these errors, but they are present in
the KJV and RSV for all to see.
The Glen Rose museum is a creationist exhibit and they claim there are human
tracks in the Paluxy River limestone bed along with actual dino footprints. 
My purpose on this net is to help people to think rationally. Do you oppose
that goal? Bad logic leads decent people to hurt people out of
ignorance.
Christians used to burn people at the stake. Why did they quit? Was it an
increase in love and wisdom or a decrease in their political power?
Is it possible they once more might commit mass slaughter, if they regain the
power they seek? 

I have been reading technical journals for 40 years and, although there are
many I have not read, I have never seen one which supported a literalistic
approach to the creation/flood stories. If you have found such I would like to
read the referenced material.
I can not disprove any deities and all I can say is I have not been
communicated with by one. The problem may be my attitude or spiritual
blindness, as has been pointed out many times by others. Others, like Oral
Roberts, claim to have repeatedly been instructed by God  to do certain
things. This is outside of my knowledge. 
I am aware of the many claims for immediate healings and can not refute them
as there is medical evidence to support this claim.
I have seen evidence for ESP, which is outside of present science.
I have seen one object which could be called a flying saucer.
The universe contains mysteries beyond my best imaginings.
If someone claims to have superior knowledge, all I ask is adequate evidence
to support the claim. There are more claimants to truth than there is truth,
so I must be careful not to be misled. The OT says a
wise piece of advice. Prov. 14:15 "The simple believes everything, but the
prudent looks where he is going."
Paul warned about people going from door to door spreading false
ideas to the gullible.
I have studied the stories about Jesus for many years and am unable to
understand them as they reflect the world view of a culture too far
removed in time and place from the one I associate with.
Maybe Jesus was the only Christian and all the others were just mistaken. I am
not in a position to decide who is real and who is mistaken in this matter.
Who is the official decider in such matters, Oral Roberts, the Pope, or even
David Koresh or Jim Jones?
The groups which had the large followings like the Protestants and
Catholics tended to be cruel to those who disagreed with their
leaders and traditions. Luther called for burning the houses of Jews.
Falwell proposed threatening a million teachers with prison for teaching
modern science. I heard no general outcry against him in this matter. In fact
I know of only one person who publically opposed this modest proposal.

The people who wrote of the life of Jesus were selling a religion.
They could create as many stories as they needed to support their
claims. If the OT said something which could be interpreted as
applyying to their Messiah, then it MUST have happened, so they wrote
that it did. 

However you choose to label it, I do not find any evidence for any
deities being real. As a scientist,  I do not deal in absolute
knowledge, so all my opinions are approximate and likely to change as
better evidence becomes available. 
I can not disprove the existence of any of the hundreds of proposed deities so
any and all may exist. I find that all are derived from human imagination so
all are equally true and equally false.
Why not just produce the evidence supporting the reality of any deity you
propose as real? I will examine that evidence and we will go from there to the
next point in the discussion. 

<It is my understanding that all humans and animals for instance were
vegetarian until sin came into the picture. >
If you checked physical relity, the fossil record shows many predators with
teeth specialized for eating flesh rather than chewing vegetation. The fossils
go back millions of years, way before anything which could be called human. 

I am proud of my ancestry, bacteria, tunicates, fish, amphibians, reptiles,
mammals, and the fine hairy primates. They overcame many problems and
survived. 

<There are two basic ways of determining the devil's work.  Jesus said
in John 10:10 that the devil steals, kills, and destroys.  When you
see this kind of evil activity it is most likely the devil or man.>
The Bible tells of God killing people directely and ordering His servents to
kill some more, including little babies. He ordered the stealing of other
people's lands. A complete list of God's supposed activites shows an antihuman
attitude, topped with the claim that He will burn most of them eternally in
Hell.

The people who wrote of the life of Jesus were selling a religion. They could
create as many stories as they needed to support their claims. If the OT said
something which could be interpreted as applying to their Messiah, then it
MUST have happened, so they wrote
that it did. 
The ONLY place you find formations of the geological periods in the wrong
order is in tectonic areas where faulting, folding and horizontal thrusting
are found. In stable areas, like Ohio, they are
ALWAYS in the proper order. Tell me about fossils of the same
species found in different geological periods, not caused by erosion and
subsequenct reburial in later period formations.
In some parts of southern Oklahoma, you can drill through the same formation
three times as it was folded into an S shape by mountain building activity
during the Pennsylvanian Period.

How do you explain the vast fossil beds of totally extinct life forms? Why are
there not any modern species intermixed if they are recent events. Tell me how
the great coral reefs of the Permian Basin of Texas formed recently. How did
the chalk cliffs of Dover, formed of Cretaceous foraminifera come about
recently, as they are
about 300 feet thick. tell us about the helium deposits of Texas and
Kansas, How did the vast coal beds of extince plant live come about?
In the Anadarko Basin of Oklahoma, there is sediment 40,000 feet thick. When
was that deposited? Tell me what happened to all the
extinct species, like the trilobites?
Give a geological analysis of the origin of the Grand Canyon and its
formations and fossils. Since you claim to have superior knowledge than the
scientific community, explain it to us all. Start your own oil company and
find more oil and gas than the satanic evolutionists using anti-god historical
geology and paleontology.How did marine limestone get 29,000 feet high on
Mt. Everest? All the world is waiting for your explanation.
Mutations produce changes in the existing individuals. Ones which confer an
advantage are selected and are more common in future generations. Those
producing a disadvantage are generally less common in future generations. This
process of mutation and natural selection is considered an important mechanism
in evolution. These changes are not labeled as upward or downward, just more
suited to the environment. 
Uniformitarianism does not assume the rate of change was always the same over
time. it assumes the laws of nature were the same in the past as now.  Some
fossil beds were produced by sudden events, like sediment currents,
landslides, local flooding, volcanic erruptions and meteor strikes. Others are
formed by slow events, like coral growth and normal ocean and lake
sedimentation.
The geological column in textbooks are not a representation of the strata of
any one place but only to show the order of deposition and the geological
names of the periods. If you want the formations of a particular place, go to
the professional literature, like state geological survey reference works. 
<All the great phyla have existed unchanged since the
Cambrian,>
One thing which is universally true in geology is that no one species persists
for very long. In the Cambrian there were no fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds
or mammals. 
In any one place any number of periods may be missing. That can be due to lack
of  deposition there or subsequent erosion.
You do not get fossils found earlier than they should be and you get fossils
found in two periods only if the fossils were eroded out of the early
sediments and redeposited in later sediments.
You do not get an assemblage of fossils of all the different periods.
If a fossil is found in a very restricted time period, they are called index
fossils, useful in correlating different formations.
Evolution assumes a long history of the earth and universe.
It assumes since the first life forms of the early Precambrian, living things
come from their ancestors by biological mechanisms.
It assumes that the genetic code varies from that of earlier periods, by
mutation. It assumes not all offspring are equal in their ability to survive. 
It assumes changes in environment which results in changes in species by the
action of natural selection.
It assumes the fossils represent living things from earlier periods of earth
history. it assumes only a small percent of all living things are fossilized.
These seem to be reasonable assumptions and are totally within the action of
the known laws of nature.
Evolution can not predict what organisms will evolve in the future. it only
indicates that change is to be expected. 


The people who lived during the ice age were ancient as they lived over 12,000
years ago. They drew pictures of ica age animals.
Their tools and weapons were found in ice age deposits. Tell your refutation
of these facts. 
The Bible is a religious  book and not taken as a scientific reference book as
it was written by prescientific people.
That is why its mention of a historical Adam is
not taken seriously by the scientific community. They have more reliable
physical sources of evidence, like the skeletons and cultural objects over a
million years old.
The Big Bang is an incomplete explanation, as all scientific models are
incomplete. Introducing a deity has not improved the predictive power of any
past scientific models so scientists tend to continue that approach in making
modern models of reality. It has been very successful  so far. If you want to
read the latest and best material
on the BB, read Hawking's books. If Hawking does not know the answers,
probably nobody knows them yet, particularly you.
The mechanisms of the universe are reasonably well known and so far no deities
have been detected controlling anything in the physical universe. The rotation
of the earth is sufficiently irregular that they have to correct the time
system periodically.
Do you know what the term Ephemeris Longitude means? I thought not.
If you have sight and the whole scientific community is blind, then give the
true facts of the matter in detail, giving physical evidence for all your
claims. 
If you can not produce adequate physical evidence and logic for your claims,
but only faith in your Holy Book and the claims of your spiritual masters, I
will remain unconvinced that you know what you are talking about.
I find evolution to be a valid model or reality, as does the scientific
community. I see nothing unlikely about descent with variation. The
alternative of animals and plants WITHOUT ancestors has never been observed
and violates many laws of nature.
The associated ideas of a young earth and  universe is contrary to observation
and other laws of nature. The Bible has trees before sun, moon, and stars. It
has birds before creeping things. If you can demonstrate these ideas are more
logical and factual than the modern scientific view, then give it a try. 
All the Christians I have met rely on faith 
as there is little of substance beyond that. 
The story of Noah's Flood is another story you will have difficulty in
validating. What do you make of the story? I have been seriously
studying these matters for 40 years and have have heard most arguments
Christians use. Most of them think in bumper sticker slogans
and that makes it hard to use reason and fact with them, as they are usually
untrained in either area of intellectual activity.
I am looking forward to seeing what material you can present as evidence for
the validity of Christianity. I suggest you check the material first for
validity. Just cutting and pasting of material
without checking it first will tend to produce error.
<I will do the necessary
research in the materials I have on hand and respond to the best of my
ability. >
Then I conclude you have not yet checked the material for validity
yet. 
How many other things you posted have not yet been checked for validity? 
<.could the intellectual
"problems" with Creationism perhaps be a protective screen to minimize the
necessity for a superior Being to whom you may be accountable? >
The intellectual problems with creationism are technical problems involving
the way the laws of nature work in the physical world.
< Christianity
is a rational faith, that can be defended in a rational manner.>
I have seen nothing of this supposed rational basis of Christianity.
Outline it if you have a rational basis for Christianity. I thought it was all
based on faith. 
I am willing to pursue an intellectual discussion on the claims of
Christianity. I have much literary material on this subject and am
no fool. 
Most appologists I have met do not check the material they propose as "proof"
and tend to become upset when I analyze it for validity.
As I told one such person "One of us should think about what you are
saying." I look forward to our discussion.

Unless you have advanced knowledge of biochemistry you would be unable to
judge this material, only report what others have claimed.
If you apply logic to the Christian story, many fundamental problems arise.
First, the idea that deities exist and control things are common traditions,
showing that primative people tend to invent deities.
The scientific community sees no need to include any deities in their
explanations for the cause of physical events.
Second, the Bible as a source for material has problems in that it was written
by fallible people who lived in a time of great ignorance.
The Creation stories are totally outside of the realm of history as the
universe has a long evolutionary history, not a short magical history. Animals
and plants come from their ancestors since the first cells about 3.6 billion
years ago. Animals and plants without ancestors is mythology. The story of
Adam and Eve is not in agreement with what is known about human origins from
the primate line.
Without a historial Adam, then there was no Original Sin and parts
of the NT become based on myth. 
The story of Noahs's Flood is physically and historically impossible.
There is no physical evidence to support such an event and no place in history
to put it. The ice caps with 160,000 yearly layers over 2 miles of older ice
show no such event could have occurred.
The formations and fossils show the earth had a long evolutionary history, not
the origin as described in Genesis. If you attempt to support the Flood as
history I can give more details refuting it.
If you introduce miracles to remove technical problems, I can not operate in
that area, as I am limited to fact and logic in my approach. Any story can be
saved by enough miracles.

<One of the most amazing phenomena in the history of education is that
a speculative philosophy based on no true scientific evidence could have
been universally adopted and taught as scientific fact, in all the
public schools. >
This is no more strange than that the idea of gravity, atoms, the
heliocentric theory, and the ancient earth and universe are being
taught as a valid model of reality. Evolution is merely descent with
variation, which is regularly observed. The alternative is Biblical
creationism, with animals without ancestors, a young earth and
universe, talking snakes, a lady made from  a man's rib and a world wide flood
nobody can find any physical evidence for.
For centuries the Christian community taught the sun circles the earth, long
after the scientific comm unity gave up that idea.
That indicates that theologians and preachers are not reliable sources of
knowledge about physical reality.
Creationism is religion, not science.

<Nevertheless,
creationism is actually a far more effective scientific model than
evolutionism,>
For some reason the petroleum geology community finds evolution to be a vital
tool for finding oil and gas. Give me a list of all
scientific successes derived from a young earth and world wide flood.
For some reason, the state geological journals of all 50 states consider
evolution to be valid and ignore creationism. 
Creationism was assumed to be true in Christian Europe, where modern science
was born. It was tried and finally rejected as the evidence
for evolution and modern geology became available.

How much have you studied the math of probability? Are you just repeating what
the creationists have told you?
Evolution is descent with modification, which is regularly observed in nature
and in the lab. While you are applying your probability math, what is the
chance that millions of species appeared without ancestors a few thousands of
years ago? 
Also, you can not apply probability to situations where the laws and
facts governing the situation are poorly defined.
What do you make of the system of geological periods and the
fossils contained therein? You failed to mention this aspect of evolution. Did
God make hundreds of millions of special creations over the last 4 billion
years of life on earth? What is the probality of that. Also, why does this
sequence resemble an evolutionary sequence? What is the probability of modern
birds having genes to produce teeth, which are never naturally found in modern
birds?
What is the probability of man and chimps having 98% identical DNA purely by
chance? Does it indicate a possible genetic link? 
What do you make of the numerous semihuman fossils found over Eurasia? Were
they ancestors or animals which just resembled ancestors by mere chance?  
I am not aware of a single scientific model which includes the
activities of deities.
If you are a literalist, then you must accept the young earth and universe,
with trees on earth preceeding sun, moon and stars?
What is the probability of that? Have you calculated that yet?
Why does the scientific community accept evolution as a valid model of
physical reality? Could it be possible they know more about the matter than
you do? The evolutionists differ on the mechanisms of evolution but not on the
fact of evolution. What do you know of the fossil record to be able to discuss
the gaps? Tell me about Seymouria.
I have seen no math from you to demonstrate your knowledge of the matter. Give
me your data and equations. Only then can I judge if you are a person with or
without knowledge of the matter.
Tell me about Noah's Flood and the math of that event. Where did the water
come from and where did it go? What energy was involved in the coming and
going? What explanation do you have for the survival of the ice caps having
240,000 yearly layers over 2 miles of older ice?
Tell me how all the plants and animals got to their present place from Turkey.
Apply probability to that problem. I look forward to your reply containing the
answers to my proposed problems.
Do not be afraid of confusing me. I am quite good at math.
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